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Lyr Req: Faith of Our Fathers
In Mudcat MIDIs:
Faith of Our Fathers (3/4)
Faith of Our Fathers (4/4)
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Subject: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: John in Brisbane Date: 20 Dec 98 - 06:54 PM The father of a friend is being buried tomorrow. It was one of his wishes that Faith Of Our Fathers be sung at his funeral. I have extracted the following words from the Web, but they don't seem quite like the Irish/Australian version that I sang in my youth - maybe there's a verse missing - or maybe it's my imagination. FAITH OF OUR FATHERS Faith of our fathers! living still In spite of dungeon, fire, and sword; O how our hearts beat high with joy Whene'er we hear that glorious word! Faith of our fathers, holy faith! We will be true to thee till death. Faith of our fathers! we will strive To win all nations unto thee; And through the truth that comes from God Mankind shall then be truly free. Faith of our fathers, holy faith! We will be true to thee till death. Faith of our fathers! we will love Both friend and foe in all our strife; And preach three, too, as love knows how By kindly words and virtuous life Faith of our fathers, holy faith! We will be true to thee till death.
Your urgent help would be appreciated.
Regards
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 20 Dec 98 - 07:05 PM John, The original first verse was as follows:
Faith of our fathers, Mary's prayers This may be what you are missing in your mind. I extracted this from the Cyber Hymnal at this URL which also has a midi of the tune and some explanatory material. May the burial be peaceful and go well. Roger in Baltimore |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Dec 98 - 07:46 PM There's one more verse in the hymnal of the Protestant Episcopal Church of the U.S. (1940): Our fathers, chained in prisons dark,The 1920 St. Gregory Hymnal and Catholic Choir Book renders it, "How sweet would be their children's fate, If they, like them, could die for thee!" Yuck. The Episcopalian version also says, "Faith of our fathers, faith and prayer shall win all nations unto thee." I learned the "Mary's prayers" verse in Catholic school many years ago, but I've avoided it because I thought it was divisive. Interestingly, that verse isn't in the 1920 Catholic hymnal. Modern Roman Catholic hymnals say "faith and prayer." Actually, I think the whole song is divisive. It's well known and has a catchy tune and brings back all sorts of nostalgic feelings about the good old days, but it's more of a religious fight song than an inspiration. I'm not all that certain the "faith" they're singing about has much to do with peace and good will. Nonetheless, I have been known to sing it with gusto on occasion, because it's a good song. -Joe Offer-
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 20 Dec 98 - 09:02 PM Here in Canada, the first verse is the same as the original poster, John from Brisbane. Apparently the original was written by Frederick W. Faber in 1849 so that original posting maybe the correct original. However the other verses were modified in 1981 to be: 2 Faith of our mothers, daring faith, |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: John in Brisbane Date: 20 Dec 98 - 09:26 PM Many, many thanks - I think it may be Joe's yuk lyrics that are the ones required.
But HELP!!!!!!!!! the tune(s) that I have downloaded from US sources are a 3/4 tune which is vaguely familiar but not the very martial 4/4 version that I know. The 4/4 song is on a recent ish CD of the same name recorded in Ireland and called something like Irish Songs Of Faith.
Any clues now as to the location of an Irish version on MIDI.
Many thanks
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Brack& Date: 20 Dec 98 - 09:39 PM Just a note about this song. Years ago at the end of a show, in some catholic social clubs, everybody would stand and you would have to finish with this song. It harks back to the days when the national anthem was played at the end of a dance. In England with a good proportion of the members being of Irish origin, Faith Of Our Fathers was regarded as a good compromise.It doesn't happen too often these days. Regards Mick Bracken |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: John in Brisbane Date: 27 Jan 00 - 05:55 PM Refresh, I have some new answers which I'll add in the next day or so. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Jan 00 - 06:04 PM So, John, are you going to post both versions of the tune, both 3/4 and 4/4 time? Please?? I'm trying to picture this as a waltz, instead of a march... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: John in Brisbane Date: 27 Jan 00 - 07:25 PM Here are the soul stirring lyrics as I knew them (thanks to Maureen O'Toole from Highton in Geelong). I've notated the two part harmony tune plus LH piano in 4/4. The 3/4 is linked above. When I get the chance I'll email them to Alison (or you Joe?). Regards, John
O FAITH of our fathers, living still
Our fathers, chained in prisons dark, |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Brakn Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:08 PM Sometimes when I play Catholic Clubs in England and it's full of mixed Irish and English, I play sing this at the end of the night so as not to offend anyone, instead of a national anthem. Mick Bracken |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Mbo Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:10 PM Catholics & Episcopals--we're close enough in theology to make the song enjoyable for both sides! --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:12 PM We had a new parish priest a few months back, and the first Sunday he came he hadn't any say in picking the hymns. So as he came up to the aisle he was greeted with the full Faber version, dungeon fire and sword and all. Just to keep him in his place.
In Ireland the third verse was changed:
Faith of Our Fathers, Mary's prayers Which gives it a different angle. In Scotland at Rangers Celtic matches, the Celtic crowd used to sing it against The Sash from the Rangers. I don't know if they ever got to the last verse though. It wouldn't have really been too consistent with the ethos of the occasiuon, and the cry "Come on Celtic - get tore intae your Separated Brethren."
But seriously, I can't see how anyone but a bigot could see the words as bigotted. Can't say I like that Canadian version. There's times I think that it's a lot better to wriote a new song than try to adapt an old one too far, and I think this is one time.
I hope your friend's funeral goes well.
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Brakn Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:21 PM Sorry I repeated meself. Ha! |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Mbo Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:31 PM Sorry I said "sides" up there! That suggests there is a good side and a bad side. I should have said "groups." Sure we've have our troubles & fights in the past--but now it's time to stop harping on our differences and start talking about what we have in common. Which is a lot! Beautiful song. --Mbo |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: GUEST,Cormac Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:31 PM Brakn, Why should you feel constrained to sing this instead of a national anthem? Indeed, why sing a national anthem at all after an event which is not national/internatioal in nature? I was taught -extremely well I might say - by the Irish Christian Brothers, who were at pains to point out that this "Irish Nationalist/Catholic" rallying song was composed in England in memory of the English Catholic martyrs of Reformation times. The Brothers were only too keenly aware of the irony and were not slow to pass it on. Great tune. BTW do I perceive a note of anti-Catholicism in this thread ? If so, shame on you. A man's religion is very dear to him and we should all be aware of the import of what we say. Were such sentiments expressed about Judaism or Islam, we would be "off the air" in no tome flat !! - and rightly so. Cormac |
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Subject: RE: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Joe Offer Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:35 PM Well, McGrath, "divisive" might be a better word than "bigoted." The veneration of Mary and other saints is a sore spot between Protestants and Roman Catholics - I think the argument is often due to a Protestant misunderstanding of Roman Catholic theology, and that the two sides are essentially the same in their basic beliefs. It seems to me that for a Catholic, especially in Ireland or England, to pray to Mary to bring the country back to God, seems akin to asking God & Mary to save the country from Protestants. Maybe that's not so strong a conflict nowadays, but it can still be a matter of disagreement. So, when I'm praying (or singing) with Protestants, I try to be careful with the Mary stuff. I think religion should resolve and not cause conflict. It seems that just the opposite happens many times, and that's a shame. Of course, my perception is from afar, as a Catholic in California. But we have Protestants here, too.... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Brakn Date: 27 Jan 00 - 08:48 PM Cormac, I sing it because that is what's requested. |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: John in Brisbane Date: 27 Jan 00 - 09:01 PM The only 'sides' that interest me here are those which know either of the two tunes. As a person of Irish stock I know and love the clearly superior Irish/Australian 4/4 version. Anyone who knows and/or prefers the 3/4 version is clearly a ______ _______, is anti ___________ and has the taste of a __________ ________. May all your chickens turn to emus and kick your dunny down. Best wishes, John |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: raredance Date: 27 Jan 00 - 10:56 PM As far as I can tell the US hymnals seem to contain the 3/4 tune written by Henri Hemy. The range includes an 1878 Methodist Hymnal, a 1934 Tabernacle Hymns to the modern Methodist hymnal and others in between. Of course my collection of hymnals is not necessarily an all denominational sample. If all the hymn sites have the 3/4 version that I know, what is the 4/4 version like? rich r |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: John in Brisbane Date: 28 Jan 00 - 12:12 AM I have sequenced this tune and sent the Midi to Alison who will kindly put on the new MUDI site. The Australian hymnal refers to the tune as Trad. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: alison Date: 28 Jan 00 - 02:05 AM I have forwarded it to Alan of Oz... since Mudcat MIDIs changed sites I have no access to it.. hopefully Max will change that soon.... slainte alison |
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Subject: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Jan 00 - 04:27 AM Well, I found the song in some 20 hymnals, including 3 Catholic hymnals (one from the 1950's didn't have it). All of the hymnals had the song in 3/4 time, and not one had the line I learned about Mary's prayers winning the country back (By the way. the hymnal I used as a high school student, was eventually banned in the Milwaukee Archdiocese). Most of the hymnals skipped the verse completely, or had it "faith and prayer will win all nations back to thee." A Lutheran hymnal had the "Faith of Our Mothers" lyrics. Looks like everybody learned about ecumenism long ago. In fact, I often hear it sung at interfaith gatherings. Cormac, I'm guessing the people you suspect of anti-Catholicism may well be Catholics, just trying to avoid words that might be offensive. I guess I have to soften my opinion of this song a bit. With a line like "Faith of our fathers, we will love / Both friend and foe in all our strife," maybe it ain't half bad. I did find a recording of Frank Patterson singing the "U.S. Version" (3/4 time) and what I suppose is the "regular" version (4/4 time) - they're on a 2-CD set of Irish Catholic anthems, appropriately titled Faith of Our Fathers. The set has all the oldies I used to sing in Catholic school, plus a few very Irish ones I haven't heard. Nice recording. It has good, traditional music, but doesn't get too sappy and sentimental. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 28 Jan 00 - 05:29 PM We used to sing it at school sometimes with a different tune from the one that's more often heard - but neither of them were 3/4.
I seem to remember that on a John Fahey record there's a version with a completely diffeent tune which I thought was a mislabelling, because we use for something completely different. That's really helpful, I don't think.
Yes, Joe, I suppose divisive might be the word. But I think it's founded on lack of understanding. I'm happy enough singing "Protestant" hymns, both in church and at folk festivals sometimes when someone rediscovers Moodie and Sankey. But I know that if a singer came out with a hymn from the distinctive Catholic hymnology tradition it'd probably be seen as divisive and unacceptable.
A song that always reminds me of Faith of Our Fathers is "How can we keep from singing" - especially the verse
When tyrants tremble, sick with fear, And hear their death-knell ringing, When friends rejoice both far and near, How can I keep from singing? In prison cell and dungeon vile Our thoughts to them are winging. When friends by shame are undefiled, How can I keep from singing?
Which would actually more or less fit to the other tune I mentioned. And vice versa.
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: GUEST,Cormac Date: 28 Jan 00 - 09:44 PM It always strikes me as mighty peculiar that Catholics are always considered "divisive" when they proclaim their faith, yet no-one else is. Joe, Why should Catholic sentiments be "offensive"? Those who object are the ones with the problem. Read the "Westminster Confessional of Faith and the "Thirty Nine Articles" and ask yourself who is being offensive to whom. Nowhere in Catholic teaching will you find such sentiments expressed vis a vis another religion. I am Catholic and try to live up to my Faith. But no way will I apologise for the misunderstandings - sometimes deliberate, I feel - of others. Anyway, this is a far cry from Trad. Music., unless we bring in such gems as "The Billy, Billy Boys." Cormac |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: GUEST,Cormac Date: 29 Jan 00 - 09:52 PM I am rather disappointed that no-one has replied to my last posting. I am also rather surprised that no-one mentioned the fact that "Faith of Our Fathers" used to be sung before the All-Ireland Championship Finals in Hurling and Football just as "Abide With Me" was sung before that great celebration of English sporting prowess, the FA Cup Final (Soccer). Both rituals have long since been done away with. Not because they were seen to be divisive, but because they were thought to be inappropriate to purely sporting occasions. Cormac |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Jan 00 - 10:11 PM Well, Cormac, the song is frequently sung by people of various Christian traditions at ecumenical gatherings, so I guess maybe I'm wrong about it being divisive as a whole. It seems to be used as a song of unity in many cases. But they don't sing the verse about Mary's prayers bringing England back, and you'll have a hard time finding that verse printed that way in any hymnal that's in current use. I suppose it's good to stick up for one's own group and all, but why pick a fight when there's nothing to fight about? I tend to think of the different Christian churches as different "expressions" or "traditions" of the same common faith. The theological differences among the Christian churches are generally fairly minor, and the points of friction between them are more often ethnic, cultural, and political, rather than religious. The discord among the Christian churches has been a scandal for centuries, and it has turned many away from the faith in disgust. Much has been done in the last 50 years to resolve those differences and heal the wounds and bring people of all faiths together. I hope that trend continues. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Brakn Date: 30 Jan 00 - 08:26 AM Abide With Me is still sung at the F.A, Cup Final. It was dropped for one year and then there was such an uproar that they had to bring it back. Mick Bracken |
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Subject: Lyr Add: COME LOVE CAROLLING From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jan 00 - 12:44 PM The hymn books in our parish church still have Faith of Our Fathers - I checked this morning. Mind it's not the bang up to date edition - there's a hole in the roof, and a twinned parish out in Africa as well, so replacing the hymn books wouldn't be the top priority.
I suppose, when it was written the idea of the "offending" verse would be praying for Protestants to become Catholics - or when Anglo-Catholics sang it, bringing the Church of England back on side, as they saw it. But now, I'd have thought in a post-Christian country like England (and it's not at all controversial saying that), that wouldn't be what it was about at all.
I always find it very strange that for so many Christians any mention of the mother of Jesus is seen as a stumbling stone and a source of discord. Muslims or Hindus don't see it that way. I suspect that's why one of Sydney Carters's finest songs, Come Love Carolling doesn't seem to turn up very often -
Come Love Carolling
(Chorus)Come love carolling along in me
Lifting and loving you that I am not
(Chorus)Come love carolling along in me
I lift and I carry you to Bethlehem,
(Chorus)Come love carolling along in me
In the beginning you were there I know,
(Chorus)Come love carolling along in me (Which is a lot subtler and thought-provoking than Faith of Our Fathers, I grant.) |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: Alan of Australia Date: 31 Jan 00 - 05:54 AM G'day, The tunes John emailed are now finally available at The Mudcat MIDI Site.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: John in Brisbane Date: 31 Jan 00 - 06:35 AM Many thanks Alan. Regards, John |
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Subject: RE: LYR REQ: Faith Of Our Fathers From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Jan 00 - 03:47 PM As I thought, the 3/4 tune isn't either of the ones I've ever come across - it's the tune used over here for Vaughan's translation of St Alphonsus's "O Bread of Heaven". A lugubrious sort of tune, though that's ok by me. I get depressed by hymns that sound too cheerful.
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