The first is an English/Australian convict song.

The section we have (words only) is: -

"Let us drink a good health to our schemers above
Who at length have contrived from this land to remove
These robbers and villains, They'll send us away
To become a new people in Botany Bay.

Some men say they have talents and trades to get bread
But they sponge on mankind to be clothed and fed
They'll spend all they get and turn night into day
Now I'd have all such sots sent to Botany Bay."

The second is also probably English. We have (words only): -

"Don't ask me who I am, my friend,
My answer is a lie.
For I may think I'm another man,
And tomorrow I may die.

Don't ask me who I love, my friend,
My answer is a lie.
For the other my love may not be enough,
And tomorow I may die.

Don't ask me why I fight, my friend,
My answer is a lie.
For I can't kill the other man's right,
And tomorrow I may die.

The ship we sail isn't strong, my friend,
To think so is a lie.
If it sails us now, it won't be for long,
And tomorrow we may die."

The third is about the Princess Alice pleasure steamer disaster, on the River Thames in England, off Rosherville (the now defunct pleasure gardens then just West of Gravesend, Kent). Of course Gravesend is now famous again as the town in England to which Pocahontas went and where (I think) she died and was buried, but that's a complete red herring, interesting only to Disney freaks. We only have the chorus (the tune of which is reminiscent of "the Titanic" a/k/a "the Great Ship" but not the same), as follows

"When the Princess Alice went down on Gravesend reach
Six hundred and forty died together.
Not all of them drowned, as the coroner found.
Some were poisoned by the black stinking river"

The first of your items is a poem from the early days of transportation to Australia - just after the American War of Independence put an end to transportation of convicts to America. The settlement was incorrectly known as Botany Bay ... Sydney is one harbour north of Botany Bay and was much more attractive.

The poem you quote was published, possibly as a broadsheet in England. I remember reciting it for a radio programme on songs of the Convict Era, some years back, and I can easily give you the full references tomorrow. I don't know of any setting to music, but it is always possible.

I doubt that the poem had much currency in Australia - if it did, it would have changed somewhat to accommodate the entirely different perspective of actually being on the other side of the world (something one historian describes as being as remote, to the London dweller of those days, as the moon is to us today!).

Regards,

Bob Bolton

If you Search the Digitrad Database in the upper right hand corner by typing in [botany bay] you will get about 10 songs with that theme. I could not quickly tell if any were the one for which you search.

I could not get a "hit" by searching for your other two songs. Good luck in your search.

Roger in Baltimore

I obviously was not listening to the right people when I said I had not heard a tune for this piece. The first modern re-appearance of 'Botany Bay, A New Song' was in True Patriots All, by Geoffrey C. Ingleton, Angus & Robertson, Sydney, 1952 - a collection of material from old broadside sources. This particular broadside is a very rare item, found in the Mitchell Library Collection of the Library of New South Wales. It may be found in the British collections - the person to ask would be Ron Edwards, who had a research grant some years back to glean through the British and Irish library collections for broadsides relating to Australia's colonial era.

In Ron Edwards' index; 200 Years Of Australian Folksong, 1788 - 1988, he says that the words were reprinted with the suggested tune 'Villikins and his Dinah'. I have checked my first edition True Patriots All, and found no mention of tunes, but perhaps this was a suggestion put by Ingleton directly to Ron at the time!

'Villikins and his Dinah' would have been well-known at the time (just post-war), having been the tune used for the Australian army song 'Dinki Di' - used to point up the Aussie Diggers' lack of respect for deskbound authority in both World Wars. The tune is best known to Americans as 'Sweet Betsy from Pike' and the English (folkies, at least) know it as the music hall song 'Villikins and his Dinah'.

The full text runs to 52 lines. If you need this, I could arrange an OCR scan and post the text ... I think that a broken wrist is sufficient excuse to not offer to re-type the whole works by hand!

Regards,

Bob Bolton

I had a look at the Digital Tradition and there is no example of this song. I will post the words to a new thread:ADD LYR: Botany Bay, a new song, but here they are for you:

BOTANY BAY,A New Song,

Let us drink a good health to our schemers above,
Who at length have contrived from this land to remove
Thieves, robbers and villains, they'll send 'em away,
To become a new people at Botany Bay.

Some men say they have talents and trades to get bread,
Yet they spunge on mankind to be cloathed and fed,
They'll spend all they get, and turn night into day,
Now I'd have all such sots sent to Botany Bay.

There's gay powder'd coxcombs and proud dressy tops,
Who with very small fortunes set up in great shops,
They'll run into debt with design ne'er to pay,
They should all be transported to Botany Bay.

The tradesmen who plays at cards, billiards and dice,
Must pay for their goods an extravagant price,
No faith I'm mistaken such rogues never pay,
Therefore they should all go to Botany Bay.

Many men they are married to good natur'd wives,
They'll run after wenches and lead debauch'd lives,
Our wise legislature should send such away,
To support their system in Botany Bay.

There's night walking strumpets who swarms in each street
Proclaiming their calling to each man they meet,
They become such a pest that without more delay,
Those corrupters of youth should be sent to Botany Bay

There's monopolizers who add to their store,
By cruel oppression and squeezing the poor,
There's butchers and farmers get rich quick in that way,
But I'd have all such rogues sent to Botany Bay.

We've great men above and gentry below,
They'll talk much of honour, and make a great shew,
But yet never think their poor tradesmen to pay,
Such defaulters I'd have sent to Botany Bay.

You lecherous whore-masters who practice vile arts,
To ruin young virgins and break parents hearts,
Or from the fond husband the wife leads astray,
Let such debauch'd stallions be sent to Botany Bay.

There's whores, pimps, & bastards, a large costly crew,
Maintain'd by the sweat of a labouring few,
They should no commission, place, pension or pay,
Such locusts should all go to Botany Bay.

And that we may sweep our foul nation quite clean,
Send off the shop-tax promoters so mean,
And those who deprives the light of the day,
Should work for a breakfast at Botany Bay.

The hulks and the jails had some thousands in store,
But out of the jails are ten thousand times more,
Who live by fraud, cheating, vile tricks, and foul play,
Should all be sent over to Botany Bay.

Now, should any take umbrage at what I have writ,
Or here find a bonnet or cap that will fit,
To such I have only this one word to say,
They are all welcome to wear it at Botany Bay.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Kind of funny to think that if you drove by land from Botany Bay to Sydney you'd probably drive past the house in Australia where I lived when I was 3 (Father on colonial duties...just jokin!) at 1560 Pacific Highway, Wahroonga. Then we moved round the corner to, if my memory serves me, Fox Valley Drive. We used to hire a cabin cruiser on a river or estuary a few miles south, and maybe that was "Botany Bay" itself. I don't know the spelling but the pronunciation was "Browra Falls". Speaking of spelling, we got caught by the Australian sense of humour naming our second house (I used to still have the nameplate). My father asked a local scholar what the aborigine for "Three Bridges" would be ('cos there were three of us and our surname was Bridge). I guess the scholar spotted a pompous pommie, 'cos he said "Kalim Dauwa" (phonetic spelling again). "Great house name", we said. Months later we found out it meant the three rotting logs over the dried up gully. Not much call for bridges in central Australia. Came back to UK when I was 6. Ccan you direct me to contact point for ROn Edwards - Email snailmail or landline. My EMail is Mclaw@btinternet.com. Cheers.

Roger in Baltimore: I had done a search before posting, and checked all the "Botany Bay" references. Just so no-one thinks I was wasting their time....

Cheers,
Alan

Still, we did leave when I was 6.

Yep, found "Villikins". Discovered the version I knew was the rude one with the chorus that goes

"I has her, I had her, I had her I-ay. I had her, I had her, I showed her the way. Some of the best times in my life I'm happy to say, I've had showing young ladies the way."

Wife and daughter less than impressed with these words.

Ah yes ... that would be The Threshing Machine or similar. I was skipping that sort of reference.

I'm having enough trouble with a song I wrote last week and passed on to friends with the information that it was (quite appropriately for other reasons) set to the tune of The Ball of Kirriemuir. I was rather stumped to learn that they did not know the song and loath to teach it to them. I guess one hears a different class of folksong at a Catholic Convent.

I'm sorry that I can't help you with the other two songs; the third song would presumably have a fairly local distribution, being so locality specific (unless remembered abroad by survivors or relatives) but the second sounds like a song that could travel. It also sounds very introspective for a folksong and may be a later composition ... but then, I may be doing the folk a discredit.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

I noticed yoy request for a location for Ron Edwards. I held off until I had done a bit of checking, in case I could give you a bit more information. I guess I ought to give a little information as well:

Ron Edwards has been around the Australian Folk Scene since before there was one! In 1951 he and John Manifold decided to start printing collected Australian folk songs in a broadside style. Manifold was a well-known poet and Ron a recent art graduate with an interest in printing. Their Bandicoot Ballads are the earliest emanations of the beginnings of the folk revival, here in Australia, and were published under Ron's Rams Skull Press imprint.

Over the years, Ron has moved steadily north from chilly Melbourne and now lives in Kuranda - a cool mountain/rain forest area up the hills from swelteringly steamy Cairns, in Far North Queensland. I have his address as:
PO Box 274 Kuranda Queensland 4874
and a friend, writing on another site, gave his address in Fairyland Road, Kuranda. In fact I remember his Tourist Map of Kuranda being on sale in the Kuranda Newsagency and his home would be in Fairyland Road, Fairyland! (It's next to Oberon's Wood ... obviously named by some Shakesperian). Anyway, I reckon the PO Box is the way to go.

Ron has collected, written and published steadily on a wide range of Australian folklore for the past 47 years. He covers traditional Bush crafts (at least 6 volumes published in his Bush Crafts series), leatherwork (almost noone else bothers to publish on leatherwork ... if ron hasn't covered it, it must be very obscure!), blacksmithing, plaiting, woodwork, traditional makeshifts from materials at hand, mud-brick building, folk tales and yarns and his artwork appears constantly in publications of which he has never heard ... & vice versa!

I asked the friend mentioned above if he might have got around to connecting the computer (which he does deign to use, it being useful for projects like his totally comprehensive index of Australian Folksong, in its various editions) to something as radical as a modem, so that us Southerners (I'm in Sydney, New South Wales) could directly contact him. The reply was:,br> Bob

I haven't broached the subject with Ron, but I certain there is a greater chance of the sun rising in the West and the Earth melting into vanilla ice cream than there is of Ron wanting to be contacted by a bunch of southern emailers.

regards

Keith.

So perhaps you need to be warned that Ron can be very absorbed in his own work and has no time for pretence. He probably represents everything that is really good about the Australian Larrikin. If you are after information about our folklore, there is no more comprehensive source.

Regards,

Bob Bolton