Of course (in line with John Garst's comment on hymns and hymn tunes)
"Amazing Grace" itself has at least one other traditional tune that I
learned from the Folk Legacy LP of traditional singer Horton Barker(?);
besides being a great tune (not associated, to the best of my knowledge,
with any other hymn) it has the great advantage of a repeated chorus: "I
want to live a Christian life, I want to die a shouting, I want to feel
my Savior near, when soul and body's parting."  In fact, you begin with
the chorus, which one might choose to see as a different hymn, to which
"Amazing Grace" was grafted on (except that any such "grafting" occurred
well before the "Amazing Grace" became popular). I wonder if Jean Ritchie
can help us out here...
  And withoug going into all the Corpus Christi stuff, does anyone know
the history of "The Two Ravens" as sung to the tune of "Ye Banks and
Braes"?  It seems to be an expanded version -- of necessity, to fit an
extended melody line -- of the Scottish "Twa Corbies," which in turn is
sung to what I am told is an old Breton melody.  I love them both, and
they've obviously very close.  Any thoughts? On Sat, 13 Aug 2005, Fred McCormick wrote:>
> You can say that again. Someone else might have a more precise figure, but
> as far as I recall, While Shepherds is sung in West Yorkshire alone to around
> 25  different tunes. One of them is reputed to be Ghost Riders in the Sky.
>
> The first time I went carolling in that part of the world (For anyone who
> doesn't know, the region to the west of Sheffield is home to a still thriving
> tradition of local carols. They are normally sung in local pubs in the six week
>  run up to Christmas.), I heard While Shepherds sung three times to three
> different tunes. I asked one of the locals how many tunes they'd got for that
> carol. He replied eleven. When I went back the following year, probably  1972,
> he told me that they'd now got twelve. I asked what the twelfth was. He
> replied, "Amazing Grace".
>
> Of course Judy Collins had a big hit with AG that year, and in Britain, its
> success was repeated by a pipe band instrumental version. Obviously,  someone
> had realised that the metre of AG fits the words of WS and it has been  staple
> part of that particular tradition ever since.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick. (Thinks. Only three and a bit months to go.)
>
>
> In a message dated 13/08/2005 13:32:36 GMT Standard Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
> The novel _Winged Victory_ (1934), by V. M. Yeates, refers to a version  of
> "Our Goodman" being sung by British pilots to the tune of "While Shepherds
> Watched Their Flocks." The words seem to fit with difficulty.  Is  the carol
> actually sung to more than one tune ?
>
> JL
>
>
>
>
>

>This may have been mentioned before, but if so I missed it: Tinsley,
>"He Was Singing This Song" (University of Central Florida 1981) has a
>two page history of Red River Valley (pp.210-211, with footnotes at
>p.242). He makes a strong case for the Canadian origin and has evidence
>that traces it back to at least the 1860's, and he discusses a bit about
>its transformation to a cowboy song. If this hasn't been previously
>mentioned, I can supply more info.
>
>Lew BeckerI went to the library and took a quick look at this book.  The notes 
are a good summary of Fowke's work.  I didn't see anything original 
there.The 1860s dates are unreliable and, I suspect, wrong.  I've come to 
believe that the desire to believe that songs are older than they 
actually are must be genetic.John-- 
john garst    [unmask]

on 8/13/05 8:45 AM, Fred McCormick at [unmask] wrote:> However, Husock repeats David Dunway's statement that, on being arraigned
> before the HUAC, Seeger pleaded the first amendment to the constitution,
> rather than the fifth. As neither author makes the difference clear, I'd be
> glad if anyone on this board could enlighten me.Fred,The first ten amendments to the Constitution are known as the Bill of
Rights. They are being skinnied up by this administration, but they are not
yet all gone away. The first amendmentrefers to freedom of speech, which the
Republicans insist, includes how much money you are allowed to spend for
political attack ads, political speech also being protected. The fifth
amendment is the right against self incrimination, or being forced to answer
a question that would incriminate oneself. The litany that you hear in old
movies, "I refuse on the advice of counsel to answer that question on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me" is how many people addressed the
question "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party"
during the HUAC days.Andy Cohen

on 8/13/05 10:18 AM, Jean Lepley at [unmask] wrote:> "Amazing Grace" itself has at least one other traditional tune that I
> learned from the Folk Legacy LP of traditional singer Horton Barker(?);
> besides being a great tune (not associated, to the best of my knowledge,
> with any other hymn) it has the great advantage of a repeated chorus: "I
> want to live a Christian life, I want to die a shouting, I want to feel
> my Savior near, when soul and body's parting."I don't know about that one, but my old friend Jim Brewer, Maxwell Street's
best sight-challenged blues singer, used to sing Amazing Grace to the tune
of Floyd Kramer's 'Last Date'.  He said he learned it that way from his wife
Fanny's people down in West Virginia.Andy Cohen

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I'm sorry to say that deliveries on stuff people have ordered (including 
Rouse's book) won't be filled until early September. The reason (I'm 
happy to say) is that I'm leaving for England on the 15th, for Whiby 
Week and some visiting.Sorry for any inconvenience.dick greenhaus

>   Of course (in line with John Garst's comment on hymns and hymn tunes)
>"Amazing Grace" itself has at least one other traditional tuneIndeed, one other tune was so consistently associated with "Amazing 
grace!" that G. P. Jackson considered it to be the "old" tune for 
that hymn.  The "new" tune was first published with that text in 
1835, as I recall.John

--- Jean Lepley <[unmask]> wrote:>   Of course (in line with John Garst's comment on
> hymns and hymn tunes)
> "Amazing Grace" itself has at least one other
> traditional tune that I
> learned from the Folk Legacy LP of traditional
> singer Horton Barker(?);Unfortunately, my field recording of Horton Barker was
given to Folkways a few months before I started
Folk-Legacy (1961). If I owned the rights to it, it
would be on CD and readily available. Mr. Barker was a
real gem!
     Sandy

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--- Fred McCormick <[unmask]> wrote:> My thanks to everyone who replied to my query about
> Pete and the American  
> constitution. Of course, in Britain, we do things so
> much better :-). Here we  
> have a constitutional monarchy, a constitutional
> House of Commons, a  
> constitutional House of Lords, and no constitution.
> And  our treason legislation goes 
> all the way back to 1351.
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Fred McCormick. (Thinks. Go easy with that axe 
> lads.)
> 

Sorry, folks. Clumsy of me. Hit the wrong button.--- Sandy Paton <[unmask]> wrote:> --- Fred McCormick <[unmask]> wrote:
> 
> > My thanks to everyone who replied to my query
> about
> > Pete and the American  
> > constitution. Of course, in Britain, we do things
> so
> > much better :-). Here we  
> > have a constitutional monarchy, a constitutional
> > House of Commons, a  
> > constitutional House of Lords, and no
> constitution.
> > And  our treason legislation goes 
> > all the way back to 1351.
> >  
> > Cheers,
> >  
> > Fred McCormick. (Thinks. Go easy with that axe 
> > lads.)
> > 
> 

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Fred McCormick wrote:
> My thanks to everyone who replied to my query about Pete and the American  
> constitution. Of course, in Britain, we do things so much better :-). Here we  
> have a constitutional monarchy, a constitutional House of Commons, a  
> constitutional House of Lords, and no constitution. And  our treason legislation goes 
> all the way back to 1351.Britain _did_ have a written constitution, once.  But Cromwell found the 
Instrument of Government inconvenient.-- 
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community 
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

Hi!	I think that many of the sellers are on vacation. The list is
short this week. 	MISCELLANEOUS	4756994888 - SONGS OF AN IRISH TINKER LADY by Barry, LP, 1955, 
$6.99 (ends Aug-17-05 18:14:00 PDT)	SONGS & BALLADS	7342029653 - The Lonely Mountaineer's Album Of Mountain Ballads And 
Cowboy Songs, 1930s, $9.99 (ends Aug-14-05 14:00:32 PDT)	7342047058 - Salty Sea Songs and Chanteys, 1943, $9.99 (ends 
Aug-14-05 15:31:57 PDT)	7342071972 - lot of 8 miscellaneous song books, $10.49 (ends 
Aug-14-05 17:42:01 PDT)	4568334587 & 4568333918 - Jane Hicks Gentry by Smith, 1998, $9.99
(ends Aug-14-05 19:05:35 PDT)	6552012176 - ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH BALLADS by Child, volume 7, 
1859, $14.99 (ends Aug-14-05 19:35:51 PDT)	6552251653 - Seventeenth Century Songs and Lyrics by Cutts, 1959, 
$14.99 (ends Aug-15-05 18:02:00 PDT)	4567638394 - Ballads and Sea Songs of Newfoundland, 1968 reprint, 
$30 (ends Aug-16-05 04:29:35 PDT)	5229296041 - Where is Saint George? Pagan Imagery In English 
Folksong by Stewart, 1977, 3.50 GBP (ends Aug-17-05 14:31:03 PDT)	4563344335 - Rise of the English Street Ballad 1550-1650 by 
Wurzbach, 1990, $168 (ends Aug-18-05 08:12:49 PDT)	7342199335 - A SELECTION OF COLLECTED FOLK SONGS by Sharp & 
Williams, volume 1, 1.50 GBP (ends Aug-18-05 09:27:43 PDT)	6552849191 - Songs of the Smokies by Graber, 1945, $19.99 (ends 
Aug-18-05 10:36:26 PDT)	 4568461790 - COWBOY JAMBOREE: WESTERN SONGS & LORE by Felton, 
1951, $9.99 (ends Aug-19-05 12:25:07 PDT)	8326033722 - The Overlander Songbook by Edwards, 1986 printing, 
9.99 GBP (ends Aug-21-05 13:04:57 PDT)	8326269762 - Fflat Huw Puw a cherddi erail by Davies, 1992, 4.99 
GBP (ends Aug-19-05 13:56:48 PDT)	8326019540 - Chapbooks of the Eighteenth Century by Ashton, 1990
reprint, 6 GBP (ends Aug-21-05 12:18:54 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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>I believe my second* husband was responsible for introducing the 
>standard Amazing Grace tune to a Scottish pipe band - he went out 
>with a pipe-major's daughter at one point.Glad to hear this.  Several people have told me, essentially, that I 
was an idiot for not accepting the notion that pipers have played 
this tune for centuries.John>Whether this is a Good Thing or a Bad Thing depends on your 
>tolerance for bagpipes.
>
>Heather
>
>
>* "how many husbands have you had?"
>     "two of my own."
>
>H

Hi folks:I think there needs to be a little clarification on Pete's First Amendment
defense. The House Coummittee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) was
conducting an inquiry on "Communism in the entertainment industry" and
subpoenaed Pete and fellow-member of the Weavers Lee Hays, both of whom had
been members of the Communist Party USA in years past. Pete had left the
party a few years earlier; I don't know when Lee left.The Committee's questions mostly bore on a single pair of issues: for what
groups, Communist-linked or otherwise, had Pete performed, and what people
had he known who were Communists. In other words, he was being asked to
"name names" to add further cannon fodder for the ongoing witch-hunt. He
told his lawyer that he was willing to admit his former membership in the
party -- he wasn't ashamed of it -- but he was unwilling to discuss other
people, or groups who had hired him. His grounds under the First Amendment
were subtle, because the amendment guarantees freedom of speech, freedom of
the press, freedom of religion (and freedom from a state-established
religion), and the freedom to assemble and petition for redress of
grievances. It does not specifically guarantee freedom of association or a
right of privacy, but those were central to Pete's position. He believed
(still believes) that he has the right to sing for whomever he chooses, and
that no govenmental agency has the legitimate power to demand that he say
for whom he has sung. Nor Pete asserted, do they have the legitimate power
to inquire into the political associations of anyone.As I said, freedom of association and a right of privacy are not explicitly
guaranteed, but the theory behind's Pete's beliefs was that they were
implicit in the explicitly declared rights, particularly those of speech and
petition.. As the Supreme Court put it in a much later, unrelated case, the
rights guaranteed under the First Amendment possess "penumbras", rights
which are implied by the Amendment without being explicitly stated. As usual
Pete was ahead of his time. (The case in which the idea was explicitly
stated by the Supreme Court was Griswold vs. Connecticut, in which the court
found that a state law against contraceptives violated a right of privacy
that existed as a penumbra to the First Amendment. Griswold, in turn, was
the major precedent cited in Roe vs. Wade, which found the laws then
regulating abortions in America unconstitutional.)Having refused to answer the committee's questions about his associations
without invoking the Fifth Amendment, which protects against
self-incrimination, Pete was cited for contempt of Congress, tried,
convicted, and sentenced to a year in prison. He got out on bail pending
appeal (after spending an afternoon in jail, during which he learned a
folksong from one of his fellow inmates); the conviction and sentence were
eventually voided on technical grounds.Peace,
Paul

John Garst wrote:> ...Several people have told me, essentially, that I was an idiot for
> not accepting the notion that pipers have played this tune for
> centuries.It just seems like it.-- 
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
mailto:[unmask]

One possible clarification about the issue concerning "naming names" before the HUAC or other govenment committees (state or federal) investigating "communism" in decades past. None of the names ever mentioned in all of the committees' hearings were new to the committees, since the FBI had infiltrated the CP for many decades and had membership lists, informers' testimony, and much else. So, when Paul notes that Pete's naming names would "add further cannon fodder for the ongoing witch-hunt" this is somewhat misleading. "Naming names" was designed NOT to get new names, but only to make those testifying grovel, abase themselves, rat on their old friends, that sort of thing. It was a ritual device to demonstrate power, and it certainly often served its purpose, but not with Pete or others who chose to challenge the witch hunt. They knew the ritual and refused to cooperate in order not only to protect old friends but, perhaps more importantly, to preserve their own integrity. Read Victor Navasky's NAMING NAMES or other studies to understand these issues. Ronald CohenHi folks:I think there needs to be a little clarification on Pete's First Amendment
defense. The House Coummittee on Un-American Activities (HUAC) was
conducting an inquiry on "Communism in the entertainment industry" and
subpoenaed Pete and fellow-member of the Weavers Lee Hays, both of whom had
been members of the Communist Party USA in years past. Pete had left the
party a few years earlier; I don't know when Lee left.The Committee's questions mostly bore on a single pair of issues: for what
groups, Communist-linked or otherwise, had Pete performed, and what people
had he known who were Communists. In other words, he was being asked to
"name names" to add further cannon fodder for the ongoing witch-hunt. He
told his lawyer that he was willing to admit his former membership in the
party -- he wasn't ashamed of it -- but he was unwilling to discuss other
people, or groups who had hired him. His grounds under the First Amendment
were subtle, because the amendment guarantees freedom of speech, freedom of
the press, freedom of religion (and freedom from a state-established
religion), and the freedom to assemble and petition for redress of
grievances. It does not specifically guarantee freedom of association or a
right of privacy, but those were central to Pete's position. He believed
(still believes) that he has the right to sing for whomever he chooses, and
that no govenmental agency has the legitimate power to demand that he say
for whom he has sung. Nor Pete asserted, do they have the legitimate power
to inquire into the political associations of anyone.As I said, freedom of association and a right of privacy are not explicitly
guaranteed, but the theory behind's Pete's beliefs was that they were
implicit in the explicitly declared rights, particularly those of speech and
petition.. As the Supreme Court put it in a much later, unrelated case, the
rights guaranteed under the First Amendment possess "penumbras", rights
which are implied by the Amendment without being explicitly stated. As usual
Pete was ahead of his time. (The case in which the idea was explicitly
stated by the Supreme Court was Griswold vs. Connecticut, in which the court
found that a state law against contraceptives violated a right of privacy
that existed as a penumbra to the First Amendment. Griswold, in turn, was
the major precedent cited in Roe vs. Wade, which found the laws then
regulating abortions in America unconstitutional.)Having refused to answer the committee's questions about his associations
without invoking the Fifth Amendment, which protects against
self-incrimination, Pete was cited for contempt of Congress, tried,
convicted, and sentenced to a year in prison. He got out on bail pending
appeal (after spending an afternoon in jail, during which he learned a
folksong from one of his fellow inmates); the conviction and sentence were
eventually voided on technical grounds.Peace,
Paul

Some time in the middle of next year Ted Anthony's book on HORS will 
be published.  Till then, I've got some questions.ROUNDER'S LUCK
Callahan Brothers
(recorded in 1934, I think - JG)
(transcribed by "Arkie"
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=8592 )The only thing that a rounder wants
Is a suitcase and a trunk.
And the only time he's satisfied
Is when he is on a drunk.He'll (loft) those glasses to the brim
Let the drinks go merrily round
We'll drink to the health of the rounder poor boy
Who hobos from town to town.My Mother she's a seamstress.
She cuts and sews them jeans.
My Daddy he's a gambling man.
He gambles in New Orleans.Oh Mama, mama how could you go
And treat that rounder so cold.
(For he's a rounder for all his strife)
And to wear your crown of gold.Theres a place down in New Orleans
That's called the Rising Sun.
Where many poor boy (to judgment have gone)
And me oh lord for one.O tell my youngest brother
Not to do what I have done
And to shun that place down in New Orleans
That's called the Rising Sun.I'm going back to New Orleans
My race is almost run.
Gonna spend the rest of my weekly pay
Beneath that Rising Sun.RISING SUN BLUES
("Tom" Ashley, 1960s)
(also recorded in 1934)
(transcribed by "Stewie", Mudcat link above)There is a house in New Orleans
They call the Rising Sun
Where many a poor boy to destruction has gone
And me, Oh God, I'm oneJust fill the glass up to the brim
Let the drinks go merrily round
We'll drink to the life of a rounder, poor boy
Who goes from town to townAll in this world does a rounder want
Is a suitcase and a trunk
The only time he's satisfied
Is when he's on the drunkNow, boys, don't you believe what a girl tells you
Let her eyes be blue or brown
Unless she's on some scaffold high
Saying, 'Boy's I can't come down'I'm going back - back to New Orleans
For my race is almost run
Gonna spend the rest of my wicked life
Beneath the Rising SunBoth of these are "boy" versions of the song.  To me, the evidence 
suggests that "boy" versions are older and more widespread than 
"girl" versions that are popular nowadays.  (This is not to deny that 
there are some older "girl" versions.)  In this post, I'm sticking to 
"boy" versions.I am struck by the dichotomy of the themes of the verses above.  Over 
half of the verses are about the hard times of a "rounder," with 
little or no link to the house of the rising sun, and one is about 
the no-goodness of women.  Among the "rising sun" verses, there is 
precious little detail, not even enough to establish for sure that 
the house of the rising sun is a bordello rather than, as Dave van 
Ronk suggested, a prison.The prison idea is forcibly dispelled by some verses in 
Randolph/Legman's publication of "unprintable Ozark folksongs."Beware the red light out in front
An' the pictures on the wall,
An' yellow gals dressed in purple shoes
Without no clothes at all.Shun the red light an' flowin' bowl,
Beware of too much drink,
Them whores will take an' lead you on
To hell's eternal brink.---There is a house in New Orleans,
They call it the Rising Sun,
An' when you want your pecker spoilt
That's where you get it done.They drink all day an' fuck all night
Until your money's gone;
They kick you ass out in the street
When the second shift comes on.That's much better, IMHO.  Using these verses we could put together 
quite a respectable song without using any of the "rounder" verses, 
and I imagine the possibility that that's how HORS started out in 
life, as both a celebration of and complaint about a bordello, 
perhaps a particular one.My candidate, as I've noted before, is Lulu White's place at 235 N. 
Basin Street, Mahogany Hall, or Hall of Mirrors, which has a rising 
sun pattern in the glass transom over the front door (illustrated in 
Al Rose's Storyville, New Orleans).  I think the song is likely to 
celebrate a famous place, and Lulu's certainly fits.We might not have to settle for that, however.  The first of the 
Randolph/Legman verses quoted above gives some particulars about the 
house.  Did Lulu White's place literally have a "red light out in 
front"?  (I don't know.)  Which New Orleans bordello, if any, 
featured "yellow gals dressed in purple shoes without no clothes at 
all"?  (I don't know, but perhaps some Storyville expert might!  Lulu 
White did feature "octoroons.")Another question:  Does Randolph/Legman contain the only sexually 
explicit verses of this song ever collected?  If not, where are 
others found, and what are they?And another:  What does it mean to have "your pecker spoilt"?  I 
think of three possibilities, (1) that "spoilt" refers to 
detumescence of the phallus following ejaculation, (2) that it refers 
to getting a disease, and (3) that it has a meaning like that in "to 
spoil a child," i.e., to cater to its every whim.  I think I lean 
toward the third meaning.Finally, I find the song one might put together using only the 
bordello verses above very satisfying, more than the usual bawdy 
song.  I suspect that the description of the operations of the New 
Orleans parlor houses given in the Randolph/Legman verses is 
essentially correct.  This stands in welcome contrast to the typical 
bawdy song full of exaggeration, impossibility, and rawness for its 
own sake.John-- 
john garst    [unmask]

> Another question:  Does Randolph/Legman contain the only sexually
> explicit verses of this song ever collected?  If not, where are others
> found, and what are they?From the Max Hunter Collection:         THE RISING SUN  Th whore house bells are ringing
  An' a man stood in th door
  All day long with a big hard on
  Tryin' to fuck a whore
  She had a dark an' rolling eye
  She belonged to th rougish crew  Well, I rustled her, I tustled her
  Till I got her hearts content
  I slipped five dollars in her hand
  An' off t' bed we went
  She had a dark an' rolling eye
  She belonged to th rougish crew  Well, I teased her, I tumbled her
  Till I got my hearts desire
  In about ten days, after that
  My ass was set on fire
  She had a dark an rolling eye
  She belonged to th rougish crew  Well, now, when you go down to New Orleans
  Just stop at the Rising Sun
  There'll you'll see three pretty French whores
  An' that damn bitch is one
  She had a dark an' rolling eye
  She belonged to th rougish crewCat. #0504 (MFH #547) - As sung by Mr. Joe Walker, Berryville, Arkansas on 
February 9, 1960.

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]><<Some time in the middle of next year Ted Anthony's book on HORS will 
be published.  Till then, I've got some questions.ROUNDER'S LUCK
Callahan Brothers
(recorded in 1934, I think - JG)>>It's really a Homer Callahan solo, recorded 4/11/1935, issued Feb., 1936.<<RISING SUN BLUES
("Tom" Ashley, 1960s)
(also recorded in 1934)>>Actually 9/6/1933, probably released later that year.Peace,
Paul

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Mehlberg" <[unmask]>> Another question:  Does Randolph/Legman contain the only sexually
> explicit verses of this song ever collected?  If not, where are others
> found, and what are they?<<From the Max Hunter Collection:         THE RISING SUN  Th whore house bells are ringing
  An' a man stood in th door
  All day long with a big hard on
  Tryin' to fuck a whore
  She had a dark an' rolling eye
  She belonged to th rougish crew  Well, I rustled her, I tustled her
  Till I got her hearts content
  I slipped five dollars in her hand
  An' off t' bed we went
  She had a dark an' rolling eye
  She belonged to th rougish crew  Well, I teased her, I tumbled her
  Till I got my hearts desire
  In about ten days, after that
  My ass was set on fire
  She had a dark an rolling eye
  She belonged to th rougish crew  Well, now, when you go down to New Orleans
  Just stop at the Rising Sun
  There'll you'll see three pretty French whores
  An' that damn bitch is one
  She had a dark an' rolling eye
  She belonged to th rougish crew>>I wouldn't class that as a version of "House of the Rising Sun", although it
may have been written about the same establishment. And despite the
beginning, it doesn't sound like "The Whorehouse Bells Were Ringing",
either.Peace,
Paul

Hi!	Gosh - It's quiet around here. Where did everyone go? For anyone
reading this, here is the first of the weekly lists.	JOURNALS	6552929072 - Green Mountain Whittlin's, 1977-78, $3.99 (ends 
 Aug-18-05 16:10:06 PDT)	6200599179 - Ozark Folklore, 1951, $9.99 (ends Aug-18-05 19:38:12 
PDT)	8326445794 - Journal of the English Dance and Song Society, 1934, 
8 GBP (ends Aug-20-05 11:41:01 PDT)	6973213755 - Journal of American Folklore, 6 issues, 1991-92, $5 
(ends Aug-23-05 18:40:00 PDT)	BOOKS 	4568216413 - Folk Housing in Middle Virginia: A Structural Analysis
by Glassie, 1996 printing, $18.99 (ends Aug-18-05 08:52:05 PDT)	4568612639 - Gib Morgan by Boatright, 1965, $4.50 (ends Aug-18-05 
10:18:24 PDT)	7343169260 - LORE OF THE BIBLE by Gaer, 2 volumes, 1951, $12.50 
(ends Aug-19-05 18:40:51 PDT)	6553274223 - The Folklore of Maine by Beck, 1957, $2.99 (ends 
Aug-20-05 10:23:44 PDT)	6553279003 - Witch Stories of New Mexico by Delgado, 1994, $7.50 
(ends Aug-20-05 10:48:18 PDT)	4568724502 - Jelly-Roll...A Black Neighborhood in a Southern Mill 
Town by Thomas, 1986, $18.96 (ends Aug-21-05 04:21:48 PDT)	8326672189 - All Silver and No Brass An Irish Christmas Mumming by 
Glassie, 1983, 15 EUR (ends Aug-21-05 11:17:36 PDT)	8326825067 - American Negro Folktales by Dorson, 1968, $0.99 (ends 
Aug-21-05 22:47:35 PDT)	6972620622 - Country Moods and Tenses by Olivier, 1942 reprint, 
2.50 GBP (ends Aug-22-05 09:28:06 PDT)	6973109942 - THE FOLKLORE OF AMERICAN HOLIDAYS by Cohen & Coffin,
1998, $9.99 (ends Aug-22-05 20:11:11 PDT)	4569255343 - History of the Texas Folklore Society by Abernathy, 
volumes 2 & 3, 2000, $22.99 (ends Aug-23-05 12:46:09 PDT)	8327252493 - Ned Kelly by Meredith & Scott, 1980, $10 AU (ends 
Aug-23-05 16:42:10 PDT)	8326786966 - The Study of Folklore by Dundes, 1965, $4.50 (ends 
Aug-24-05 18:46:32 PDT)	5231135792 - DICTIONARY OF OMENS AND SUPERSTITIONS by Waring, 
0.20 GBP (ends Aug-25-05 13:38:54 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi!	OK - This is it for this week. No songsters at the moment. :-(	MISCELLANEOUS	4757997059 - Shipshape & Bristol by Ilott, LP, 1973, 0.99 GBP 
(ends Aug-21-05 07:44:49 PDT)	4758570648 - THE WRECK OF THE SHENANDOAH AND THE LETTER EDGED IN 
BLACK by Dalhart, 78 RPM, $8.88 (ends Aug-22-05 18:31:28 PDT)	6424230026 - Ballad Of A Mountain Man, VHS, $1.99 (ends Aug-21-05 
18:37:39 PDT)	SONGS & BALLADS	6553464027 - DISCOVERING ENGLISH FOLKSONG by Pollard, 1982, $9.99 
(ends Aug-19-05 09:02:06 PDT)	8326407426 - Rowdy Rhymes & Bibulous Ballads gathered from many gay 
minstrels by Martin, 1952, $3 (ends Aug-20-05 08:38:49 PDT)	6553313641 - Songs of the Sea and Sailors' Chanteys by Frothingham,
 1924, $18 (ends Aug-20-05 13:42:41 PDT)	6553348617 - A BOOK of BRITISH BALLADS by Brimley Johnson, 1931, 
$0.99 (ends Aug-20-05 17:45:56 PDT)	7344481723 - GARNERS GAY by Hammer, 1967, 1 GBP (ends Aug-21-05 
14:48:04 PDT) 	6972935089 - A BOOK OF NURSERY RHYMES by Swabey, 1928, 0.99 GBP 
(ends Aug-21-05 15:05:36 PDT)	7343567897 - ELMORE VINCENT's LUMBER JACK SONGS, 1932, $5.45 (ends 
Aug-21-05 15:24:41 PDT)	4568227860 - Singing Family of the Cumberlands by Ritchie, 1988 
edition, $19.99 (ends Aug-21-05 16:00:00 PDT)	6199255504 - BALLADS OF BY-GONE DAYS Vol. 2, 1931, $5 (ends 
Aug-21-05 19:45:00 PDT)	6554095413 - The Original Mother Goose's Melody, 1892 reprint, 
$3.99 w/reserve (ends Aug-21-05 20:10:17 PDT)	6553722667 - THE BALLAD OF THE WIND, THE DEVIL AND LINCOLN MINSTER
by Frost, 1898, $3.99 (ends Aug-22-05 08:55:52 PDT)	6553785761 - SONGS of BRITAIN by Kidson & Shaw, 1913, $24.99 (ends 
Aug-22-05 17:49:04 PDT)	4758761820 - Eight Traditional British-American Ballads by 
Flanders, 1953, $4.99 (ends Aug-23-05 11:18:44 PDT)	4569274976 - Taboo Tunes: A History of Banned Bands and Censored 
Songs by Blecha, $12.50 (ends Aug-23-05 14:42:18 PDT)	6553870965 - SONGS OF THE SOLDIERS by Moore, 1864, $25.25 (ends 
Aug-23-05 15:26:18 PDT)	6554300973 - English Folk Song and Dance by Kidson & Neal, 1915, 
$5 (ends Aug-24-05 13:33:57 PDT)	7344323808 - Songs of the Hebrides by Kennedy-Fraser & MacLeod, 
Volume 2, 1917, $45 (ends Aug-24-05 23:04:08 PDT)	8327605810 - Folk Revival by Woods, 1979, 1.25 GBP (ends 
Aug-25-05 06:38:40 PDT)	7344373586 - The Scottish Folksinger by Buchan & Hall, 1978, 1.25
GBP (ends Aug-25-05 06:50:05 PDT)	8327466106 - THE BALLAD AND THE FOLK by Buchan, 1997 edition, 0.99 
GBP (ends Aug-27-05 13:44:49 PDT)	8327627828 - Discovering English Folksong by Pollard, 1982, 1.99 
GBP (ends Aug-28-05 08:37:40 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
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On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 15:54:00 -0700, Jonathan Lighter wrote:>I always thought this was the James Stevens (1892-1971) who wrote the very successful kid's book _Paul Bunyan_(1925) and a few other books about the logging industry. He also wrote a pretty good World War I novel entitled _Mattock_ (1926).
> 
>But if the name is spelled "Stephens," it's a different guy.Just returned from Raleigh & getting caught up...I spent some time looking the guy up.  He was a favorite local newswriter in
Seattle.  Writer of many Paul Bunyan stories and he's generally credited
with "Frozen Logger" though I don't have specific earliest copyright info.James Stevens was born in Albia, Iowa, 15 Nov 1892 [SS #535-05-0909 from
Social Security Death Index -http://www.ancestry.com] and died in Seattle on
12/30/1971 [according to the the Seattle Times of 12/31/1971.][Info thanx Stephen Kiesow, librarian, Seattle Public Library & Don Firth
[unmask]] The ASCAP site gives:1.  FROZEN LOGGER THE      (Title Code: 060013312)  
  Writers:
   FASCINATO JACK 
   TAYLOR CATHERINE   Performers:
(none found)     !!!!  Variations:
  (none found)  Publishers/Administrators:
  GLENWOOD MUSIC CORPORATION 
    % EMI MUSIC PUBLISHING INC 
    ATTN: JENNIFER INSOGNA 
    810 SEVENTH AVENUE 
    NEW YORK , NY, 10019That "Writers: FASCINATO JACK"  needn't be considered too much, I think.  He
is also credited with the 23rd Psalm, ADESTE FIDELIS, etc. BMI gives:Songwriter/Composer Current Affiliation CAE/IPI # 
STEVENS JAMES NA 0 
Publishers 
FOLKWAYS MUSIC PUBLISHERS INC BMI 10456722 but continues with three othere writers as well.
====
As noted by TradManFL, there's been a consistant change in the first verse.
I am amused that the generally sung first verse is:	As I sat down one evening inside of a small cafe, 
	A forty year-old waitress to me these words did say: However, as revival singers, especially female ones, aged close to and past
that "ridiculously elderly" figure, many seemed to discover and change to
the originally published line:	As I sat down one evening within a small cafe,
	A 6-foot-seven waitress to me these words did say: -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
	          I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
	                Boycott South Carolina!
	     http://www.naacp.org/news/2001/2001-01-12.html

I haven't yet listened to this, but from the text it seems pretty clear to
me that this is not the "same" song as "House of the Rising Sun.">> Another question:  Does Randolph/Legman contain the only sexually
>> explicit verses of this song ever collected?  If not, where are others
>> found, and what are they?
>
> From the Max Hunter Collection:
>
>          THE RISING SUN
>
>   Th whore house bells are ringing
> ....

>I haven't yet listened to this, but from the text it seems pretty clear to
> me that this is not the "same" song as "House of the Rising Sun."Yes, this "The Rising Sun" song is not the "same" song but the evidence is
so spotty for bawdy songs that I wanted to point it out as it might be 
"related".>
>>> Another question:  Does Randolph/Legman contain the only sexually
>>> explicit verses of this song ever collected?  If not, where are others
>>> found, and what are they?
>>
>> From the Max Hunter Collection:
>>
>>          THE RISING SUN
>>
>>   Th whore house bells are ringing
>> ....

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Curious.  The song was widely enough known to be recorded commercially and
to be collected a number of times, yet not widely enough known to be
obtained in raw form by more than one collector.  Strange!  What is the
explanation?J> So far as I know Randolph is the only collector to report bawdy verses in
> what is clearlythe undiluted "The House of the Rising Sun."
>
> JL
>
> John Mehlberg <[unmask]> wrote:
>>I haven't yet listened to this, but from the text it seems pretty clear
>> to
>> me that this is not the "same" song as "House of the Rising Sun."
>
> Yes, this "The Rising Sun" song is not the "same" song but the evidence is
> so spotty for bawdy songs that I wanted to point it out as it might be
> "related".
>
>
>>
>>>> Another question: Does Randolph/Legman contain the only sexually
>>>> explicit verses of this song ever collected? If not, where are others
>>>> found, and what are they?
>>>
>>> From the Max Hunter Collection:
>>>
>>> THE RISING SUN
>>>
>>> Th whore house bells are ringing
>>> ....
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>  Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Gentlemen:Let me add that I have two collections of some size gathered in the 1920s, as well as copies of the Gordon collections at  the Library of Congress and University of Oregon.  There is no trace of  "House of the Rising Sun" in these.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, August 20, 2005 3:32 pm
Subject: Re: House of the Rising Sun (long)> Actually, we've no way of knowing how many bawdy versions were in 
> circulation, since Randolph was one of the few collectors to 
> 
> a)  accept and record bawdy folk material, 
> 
> b) put the material into shape for publication, and
> 
> c) be lucky enough to find a competent editor, who
> 
> d) worked for years doing background on the material, and who
> 
> e) was able to find a publisher.
> 
> 
> JL
> 
> 
> [unmask] wrote:
> Curious. The song was widely enough known to be recorded 
> commercially and
> to be collected a number of times, yet not widely enough known to be
> obtained in raw form by more than one collector. Strange! What is the
> explanation?
> 
> J
> 
> > So far as I know Randolph is the only collector to report bawdy 
> verses in
> > what is clearlythe undiluted "The House of the Rising Sun."
> >
> > JL
> >
> > John Mehlberg wrote:
> >>I haven't yet listened to this, but from the text it seems pretty 
> clear>> to
> >> me that this is not the "same" song as "House of the Rising Sun."
> >
> > Yes, this "The Rising Sun" song is not the "same" song but the 
> evidence is
> > so spotty for bawdy songs that I wanted to point it out as it 
> might be
> > "related".
> >
> >
> >>
> >>>> Another question: Does Randolph/Legman contain the only sexually
> >>>> explicit verses of this song ever collected? If not, where are 
> others>>>> found, and what are they?
> >>>
> >>> From the Max Hunter Collection:
> >>>
> >>> THE RISING SUN
> >>>
> >>> Th whore house bells are ringing
> >>> ....
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Gentlefolk:The "early" (ca. 1920-30) collections I have in my files were generated by advertisement (like Gordon did for Adventure magazine).  They are hardly representative of the entire corpus os Ameriocan folk song, nor would they prove that the absence of a particular song meant anything atall.Ed

>> Another question:  Does Randolph/Legman contain the only sexually
>> explicit verses of this song ever collected?  If not, where are others
>> found, and what are they?
>
> From the Max Hunter Collection:
>
>          THE RISING SUN
>   ...
>   Well, now, when you go down to New Orleans
>   Just stop at the Rising Sun
>   There'll you'll see three pretty French whores
>   An' that damn bitch is one
>   She had a dark an' rolling eye
>   She belonged to th rougish crew
>
>
> Cat. #0504 (MFH #547) - As sung by Mr. Joe Walker, Berryville, Arkansas on
> February 9, 1960This is much like the British song that mentions the Rising Sun, often
quoted in discussions.  Was it sung by Sam Larner?  Or someone else?The similarity suggests that this has an origin that is independent of
House of the Rising Sun.  The setting in New Orleans, however, suggests
perhaps that someone was aware of both the British song and House of the
Rising Sun.As for details, they conflict - the Ozark song has the House of the Rising
Sun populated by "yellow gals," presumably octoroons, while the song above
has "three pretty French whores."  I don't that that both octoroons and
whites would have been at the same bordello in New Orleans.J

Hi!	Here I sit in the heat waiting the air conditioner to be
repaired. Meanwhile, I present the first half of the weekly lists. The
second half will be posted tomorrow. 	MISCELLANEOUS	4760330594 - Maggi Peirce Live, cassette, 1982, $0.99 (ends 
Aug-28-05 18:58:17 PDT) *seller - Dolores Nichols :-)	JOURNALS	6201633155 - Pennsylvania Folklife, Summer 1958, $9.99 (ends
Aug-23-05 11:03:36 PDT)	6973533599 - 6 issues of NORTH CAROLINA FOLKLORE JOURNAL, 
1989-98, $12.50 (ends Aug-28-05 17:02:36 PDT)	BOOKS 	6973360669 - A Highland Chapbook by Cameron, 1928, 3 GBP (ends 
 Aug-22-05 13:22:48 PDT)	5229982488 - Highland Folk Ways by Grant, 1977, 3.50 GBP (ends 
22-Aug-05 21:57:00 BST)	7707596392 - THE FIRST LIAR NEVER HAS A CHANCE by Garry, 1994, 
$9.99 (ends Aug-24-05 13:42:28 PDT)	8327491717 - Stiff as a Poker by Randolph, 1993 reprint, $2.95 
(ends Aug-24-05 18:00:00 PDT)	4569526948 - The Miners of Wabana: The Story of the Iron Ore Miners 
of Bell Island by Weir, 1989, $9.95 (ends Aug-24-05 20:08:00 PDT)	8327707401 - Folk Lore of the Lake Counties by Findler, 1968, 
1.50 GBP (ends Aug-25-05 13:14:08 PDT)	4569684825 - PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH FOLKLORE, $1.99 (ends Aug-25-05 
17:31:30 PDT)	6554761718 - FOLKLORE OF LUNENBURG COUNTY, NOVA SCOTIA by 
Creighton, 1950, $9.99 (ends Aug-26-05 09:59:41 PDT)	8328052458 - The Folklore of Wiltshire by Whitlock, 1976, 1.99 
GBP (ends Aug-27-05 03:51:49 PDT)	6554285172 - The Regular Bang-Up Reciter, and curious Story Teller, 
1860?, $4.87 w/reserve (ends Aug-27-05 12:43:15 PDT)	4570119443 - Texas Play-Party by Munson, 1992, $9.95 (ends 
Aug-27-05 14:55:10 PDT)	5232613438 - Our Highland Folklore Heritage by Polson, 1926, 7.50
GBP (ends Aug-29-05 15:33:00 PDT)	8327953534 - The Road to the Isles by Macleod, 1933, 7.50 GBP 
(ends 29-Aug-05 23:51:00 BST)	5232613633 - Popular Tales of the West Highlands by Campbell, 4 
volumes, 1983, 20 GBP (ends 30-Aug-05 00:07:00 BST)	5232613727 - Shetland Folk-Lore by Spence, 1999 reprint, 4.50 GBP 
(ends 30-Aug-05 00:29:00 BST)	5232613759 - Tales of Galloway by Temperley, 1979, 4.50 GBP 
(ends 30-Aug-05 00:37:00 BST)	5232847230 - Folk Tales of the British Isles by Foss, 1977, 1.99 
GBP (ends Aug-30-05 08:39:28 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

I know a few of you will find this interesting.Searchable. full text images of most Colorado newspapers from the turn 
of the century [the last one]. 825 hits for the word "ballad" including 
[13 Feb. 1905] a $100 prize for the best ballad on the subject of the 
"trail"; [22 March 1882] an "Anglo-American Romany Ballad" by Charles G 
Leland and [18 Sept. 1914] a "Plea for the Old Ballads" ["far superior 
to the Present Day Lyrics"]. "Put a volume of fine old ballads on the 
piano and begin you child's education not only in song but romance."http://host1.cdpheritage.org/newspapers/

Hi!	While sitting by the malfunctioning air conditioner, I found the
following on Ebay.	SONGSTERS & BROADSIDES	7343919925 - HELLO CENTRAL, GIVE ME HEAVEN, $9.99 (ends Aug-23-05 
06:36:16 PDT)	7343919933 - Holding Hands, $9.99 (ends Aug-23-05 06:36:21 PDT)	7343919949 - Take Back Your Gold Songster, $9.99 (ends Aug-23-05 
06:36:32 PDT)	6554412416 - The Red White and Blue Songster, $5 (ends Aug-24-05 
23:25:51 PDT)	7345151298 - Sheet music advertising broadside, 1898?, $9.90 (ends 
Aug-28-05 16:44:02 PDT)	6554673782 - Broadside, Give Us Back Our Old Commander, 1862, 
$49.98 (ends Aug-29-05 17:57:00 PDT)	6555223815 - The Universal Songster or Museum of Mirth, volume 1,
1826?, $24.95 (ends Aug-28-05 15:45:00 PDT)	6555224488 - The Universal Songster or Museum of Mirth, volume 2, 
1826?, $24.95 (ends Aug-28-05 15:45:00 PDT)	7345169584 - Adam Forepaugh and Sells Bros. Clown Songster, 190?, 
$8 (ends Aug-28-05 18:02:40 PDT)	6554645697 - Broadside, Camp Song or One Day in Camp, 1863?, $9.95 
(ends Aug-31-05 20:22:00 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi!	As summer winds down, here is other Ebay list. :-)	MISCELLANEOUS	6973750554 - SCOTTISH STUDIES, 1974, 3.88 GBP (ends Aug-27-05 
11:13:14 PDT)	6974084234 - Scottish Studies, 1976, 3 GBP (ends Aug-29-05 
14:00:34 PDT)	SONGS & BALLADS	6554465587 - Roll Me Over by Babad, 1972, $24.95 (ends Aug-25-05 
07:19:54 PDT)	4569869770 - The Tri Coloured Ribbon: Rebel Songs Of Ireland, 
1969, $7.50 (ends Aug-26-05 10:55:38 PDT)	6554787843 - The Festival of Love, or A Collection of Cytherean 
Poems, 1770, $73 w/reserve (ends Aug-26-05 11:53:05 PDT)	7344684901 - Cumbrian Songs & Ballads by Gregson, 1980, 1.99 GBP 
(ends Aug-26-05 12:58:22 PDT)	7344724438 - Barbershops, Bullets, and Ballads by Studwell & 
Schueneman, 1999, $9.99 (ends Aug-26-05 17:24:09 PDT)	6973749761 - Legendary Ballads of England and Scotland by Roberts,
1900?, 2.50 GBP (ends Aug-27-05 11:07:35 PDT)	7344872273 - Ozark Folksongs by Randolph, 1982, $7 (ends Aug-27-05 
13:07:12 PDT)	6554296723 - MERRY MUSES OF CALEDONIA by Burns, 1905, $1.25 (ends 
Aug-27-05 13:20:31 PDT)	8328217997 - The Overlander Songbook by Edwards, 1971, $2 AU (ends 
Aug-27-05 18:47:37 PDT)	6555101022 - Nursery Rhymes of England and POPULAR RHYMES AND 
NURSERY TALES OF ENGLAND by Halliwell, 2 volumes, 1970, $12.50 AU (ends 
Aug-28-05 00:30:45 PDT)	7344463581 - Northumbrian Minstrelsy by Collingwood Bruce & Stokoe,
1998 reprint, 5.61 GBP (ends Aug-28-05 13:16:06 PDT)	7344468939 - A Book of British Ballads by Palmer, 1998 reprint, 
1.99 GBP (ends Aug-28-05 13:39:00 PDT)	7344690816 - Joe Davis' "Songs of the Roaming Ranger", 1935, $5 
(ends Aug-28-05 17:00:00 PDT)	6555317498 - Keesler Field Song Book, 1943, $2.99 (ends Aug-28-05 
17:59:23 PDT)	4570377567 - Devil's Ditties by Thomas, 1931, $19 (ends Aug-28-05 
19:19:30 PDT)	6555348228 - Songs and Ballads from Nova Scotia by Creighton, 1966
Dover reprint, $13.99 (ends Aug-28-05 19:37:50 PDT)	6973989546 - Mountain Ballads & Old Time Songs No.13 by Kincaid, 
1936?, $3 (ends Aug-28-05 23:27:10 PDT)	7345433113 - English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians by 
Sharp, 2 volumes, 1932, $31 (ends Aug-29-05 19:48:18 PDT)	6973702788 - Traditional Nursery Rhymes by Foss, 1976, 2.99 GBP 
(ends Aug-30-05 03:58:32 PDT)	4547559965 - Warrior Women and Popular Balladry 1650-1850 by 
Dugaw, 1989, $74.95 (ends Aug-31-05 08:07:43 PDT)	6973851429 - Ballads, Songs & Poems of Robin Hood by Gutch &
Hicklin, 1866, 29.99 GBP (ends Aug-31-05 13:30:00 PDT)	6973851804 - Naval Songs and Ballads by Firth, 1908, 29.99 GBP (ends
Aug-31-05 13:55:00 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Does anyone know of a location for _Wehman's
Collection of Songs_ No. 42 (New York: Henry J.
Wehman, 1894)?stephen_r1937 at yahoo.com__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
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Stephen:This question you must take to the acknowledged master, Norm Cohen.  Indeed, he may have a copy of the songster.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Reynolds <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:42 pm
Subject: Wehman's Collection of Songs> Does anyone know of a location for _Wehman's
> Collection of Songs_ No. 42 (New York: Henry J.
> Wehman, 1894)?
> 
> stephen_r1937 at yahoo.com
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 

Library of Congress, Music Division.  There is a WWW site for 
something like the Music Reading Room, and at that site is a form 
through which you can request assistance.  In response to my request 
for an item in Wehman's Collection, I was told that they have it, 
that it is currently unavailable, and that I should make another 
request after the first of the year.John>Stephen:
>
>This question you must take to the acknowledged master, Norm Cohen. 
>Indeed, he may have a copy of the songster.
>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Stephen Reynolds <[unmask]>
>Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:42 pm
>Subject: Wehman's Collection of Songs
>
>>  Does anyone know of a location for _Wehman's
>>  Collection of Songs_ No. 42 (New York: Henry J.
>>  Wehman, 1894)?
>>
>>  stephen_r1937 at yahoo.com
>>
>>  __________________________________________________
>>  Do You Yahoo!?
>>  Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>  http://mail.yahoo.com
>>

While reading an article in The New Yorker last night about the "new" academic field of studying bullshit and its academic implications, I was reminded of my reaction to "Restoration of Cock Robin" by Norman Iles, in which he bulls his way through what he thinks might be the original meanings to carols and nursery rhymes, without any references to anyone's previous work.Any glaring instances of bullshit in the ballad world that we should steer clear of? Posting to this list aside, of course.Beth Brooks
Indianapolis, IN

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

> Subject: Re: Wehman's Collection of SongsI have gotten some very obscure, scarce material by
interlibrary loan through our regular public library.
Pretty fast too (usually about 7-10 days).Some items can't be checked out, at the request of the
lending institution. However, a librarian-to-librarian
telephone call will circumvent this restriction most
of the time.C.

A friend sent this interesting query:"...I have to write an article on the V & T [Virginia and Truckee] 
railroad.  Do you know of any songs to do with Nevada and railroads in 
the lyrics?"Any suggestions?-Adam Miller
Woodside, CA

Now it's my turn to invoke the name of Norm Cohen as
the master of the game.Stephen--- Adam Miller <[unmask]> wrote:> A friend sent this interesting query:
> 
> "...I have to write an article on the V & T
> [Virginia and Truckee] 
> railroad.  Do you know of any songs to do with
> Nevada and railroads in 
> the lyrics?"
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> -Adam Miller
> Woodside, CA
> __________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com 

Multnomah County Public Library does an admirable job
(bless you, Ann and Julie!) of getting things on
interlibrary loan. However, aside from the
circumstance that interlibrary borrowing is currently
suspended for a month while they install a new digital
catalog, they require a reference in WorldCat;
otherwise I would have to supply the location, and
that is just what I don't have!Stephen--- Cliff Abrams <[unmask]> wrote:> > Subject: Re: Wehman's Collection of Songs
> 
> I have gotten some very obscure, scarce material by
> interlibrary loan through our regular public
> library.
> Pretty fast too (usually about 7-10 days).
> 
> Some items can't be checked out, at the request of
> the
> lending institution. However, a
> librarian-to-librarian
> telephone call will circumvent this restriction most
> of the time.
> 
> C.
> __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

Hi!	As I enjoy the return of air conditioning, here is another Ebay
list. :-)	JOURNALS	6973371656 - Scottish Studies, 1971, 2 issues, 4.88 GBP (ends 
Aug-27-05 14:42:32 PDT)	6974177093 - Scottish Studies, 1987, 3 GBP (ends Aug-30-05 
08:13:52 PDT)	5234885855 - Folklore, Spring 1964, 2.99 GBP (ends Sep-04-05 
11:05:05 PDT)	5234885944 - Folklore, Autumn 1965, 2.99 GBP (ends Sep-04-05 
11:05:13 PDT)	5234886004 - Folklore, Summer 1967, 2.99 GBP (ends Sep-04-05 
11:05:18 PDT)	5234887488 - Folklore, Autumn 1968, 2.99 GBP (ends Sep-04-05 
11:07:21 PDT)	5234887537 - Folklore, Summer 1968, 2.99 GBP (ends Sep-04-05 
11:07:26 PDT)	BOOKS 	4570621025 - Ozark Superstitions by Randolph, 1947, $5 (ends 
Aug-27-05 17:25:54 PDT)	8328480076 - Complete Book of Australian Folklore by Scott, 1976, 
$3.95 (ends Aug-28-05 17:22:39 PDT)	8329081543 - Who Blowed Up the Church House by Randolph, 1952, 
$4.99 (ends Aug-28-05 23:28:13 PDT)	8328661241 - Yellow, Gray, Green, Red & Crimson Fairy Books by Lang,
1966 Dover editions, $9.50 (ends Aug-29-05 10:40:32 PDT)	8328750593 - Folklore of the Scottish Highlands by Ross, 1993, 
$6.99 (ends Aug-29-05 16:58:42 PDT)	4570619740 - What They Say In New England & Other American Folklore 
by Johnson, 1963, $4.99 (ends Aug-29-05 17:17:36 PDT)	4570674372 - Pinelands Folklife by Williams, 1987, $3 (ends 
Aug-29-05 22:48:29 PDT)	4570749187 - Urban Myths by Brown & Flynn, 2003, $0.99 (ends 
Aug-30-05 09:05:56 PDT)	8329047957 - Florida Folktales by Reaver, 1987, $12.95 (ends 
Aug-30-05 19:10:02 PDT)	4571388835 - 2 books (ENGLISH CUSTOMS AND TRADITIONS & DISCOVERING 
THE FOLKLORE OF BIRDS AND BEASTS), 1968 & 1971, 3 GBP (ends Sep-01-05 
12:03:09 PDT)	6556368790 - Folklore of Springfield, Vermont by Baker, 1922, 
$15.50 (ends Sep-01-05 13:35:24 PDT)	5234947060 - West Country Folklore by Radford, 1998, 1.25 GBP 
(ends Sep-04-05 12:24:55 PDT)	5234952513 - Folklore of Cornwall by Deane & Shaw, 2003, 3.99 GBP 
(ends Sep-04-05 12:32:13 PDT)	8329347213 - THE FOLKLORE OF HAMPSHIRE & THE ISLE OF WIGHT by 
Boase, 1976, 2.99 GBP (ends Sep-04-05 12:45:00 PDT)	8329597409 - FOLKLORE OF TAYSIDE by Gibson, 1960?, 1.70 GBP (ends 
Sep-04-05 13:13:54 PDT)	8329610889 - FOLKLORE OF GUERNSEY by DeGaris, 2.99 GBP (ends 
Sep-04-05 13:43:42 PDT)	4571432678 - The Folklore of the Welsh Border by Simpson, 1976, 
10 GBP (ends Sep-04-05 14:24:52 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
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This is all that WorldCat shows:Wehman's collection of songs].
          Type: English : Book : Non-fiction
          Publisher: New York : Henry J. Wehman, [ca. 1890]
          Subjects: Songsters.
University of Delaware
Newark,DE 19717 Wehman's collection of 102 songs.
          Type: English : Book : Non-fiction
          Publisher: New York : Wehman, ©1886.
Brown University
 Providence,RI 02912Microform 
The Latest and best collection of popular songs of
    the day as sung at this show
          Type: English : Book : Non-fiction
          Publisher: New York : H.J. Wehman, [1893?]
          Subjects: Songsters. | Popular music -- Texts. -- To 1901
Brown University
Providence,RI 02912Truman
-- 
Suzanne and Truman Price
Columbia Basin Books
7210 Helmick Road
Monmouth, OR 97361email [unmask]
phone 503-838-5452
abe URL: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abep/il.dll?vci=3381Abe Heritage Seller

Thanks for looking this up for me. Multnomah County Library does have WorldCat--they
don't tie their e-mail system to it and then leave the
patron to find it as best he can--but no participating
library  reports the needed volume. Few libraries have
much of this sort of thing. It was probably printed on
something like newsprint and the value of this sort of
material has never been widely recognized. The bottom
line is, WorldCat has an exiguous listing of Wehman's
songsters, and the one I need is not among them.
Brown's collection is thin for the period when Wehman
flourished; it's strength is in the pre-Civil-War
period, for which it is excellent. And Brown's
special-collection librarians are most helpful. But
they are not able to provide much assistance with
Wehman's publications, and as far as I know no library
has systematically collected them, as Brown has done
for the earlier songsters. An internet search of book dealers turns up a few
Wehman publications, including instruction books on
dancing and the like, but nothing like the songster in
view here. A couple of Wehman songsters in library collections
other than Brown, and not included in WorldCat, can be
located on the internet, but not Collection of Songs
No. 42. Not even the Internet has everything.Stephen--- Truman and Suzanne Price
<[unmask]> wrote:> This is all that WorldCat shows:
> 
> Wehman's collection of songs].
>           Type: English : Book : Non-fiction
>           Publisher: New York : Henry J. Wehman,
> [ca. 1890]
>           Subjects: Songsters.
> University of Delaware
> Newark,DE 19717 
> 
> Wehman's collection of 102 songs.
>           Type: English : Book : Non-fiction
>           Publisher: New York : Wehman, ©1886.
> Brown University
>  Providence,RI 02912
> 
> Microform 
> The Latest and best collection of popular songs of
>     the day as sung at this show
>           Type: English : Book : Non-fiction
>           Publisher: New York : H.J. Wehman, [1893?]
>           Subjects: Songsters. | Popular music --
> Texts. -- To 1901
> Brown University
> Providence,RI 02912
> 
> Truman
> -- 
> Suzanne and Truman Price
> Columbia Basin Books
> 7210 Helmick Road
> Monmouth, OR 97361
> 
> email [unmask]
> phone 503-838-5452
> abe URL:
> http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abep/il.dll?vci=3381
> 
> Abe Heritage Seller
> 		
____________________________________________________
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This just in from Steve Roud. I don't know. I'm
dependent on Cazden, Haufrecht, & Studer for the
reference; earlier (before 1982) writers were not
aware of 'Flying Cloud' in a Wehman songster (the next
discussion in print, as far as I know, was in the
_Boston Evening Transcript_ in 1916, twelve years
after the date assigned by C,,H,, & S, to the Wehman
collection, and the latter is not mentioned there).
__Notes & Sources for Folk Songs of the Catskills_ in
some ways sets new standards for folksong
bibliography, but at the same time it is too
compressed; for example, it fails to give the date of
the songster to which it assigns the number 42 in the
series of Wehman's Collecions of Songs. The date is
given in _Folk Songs of the Catskills_, to which
_Notes & Sources_ is a companion: "A songster text of
1894 was copyrighted by Henry J. Wehman . . ." (p.
429), but the title and other data of publication
appear only in _Notes & Sources_. A misprint anywhere
in the references could be seriously misleading. I don't have Norm Cohen's Bibliography, and as I
explained earlier I cannot even request an
interlibrary borrowing for a month, until the new
catalog is set up. It's this sort of thing, in fact, that led me to begin
putting together a bibliography; in addition to being
a bit out of date by now, the list in _Notes &
Sources_ does have some lacunae, and no other
bibliography on the song is as thorough as C, H, & S
are. But unless I can verify an earlier reference
there is no point in listing it at all. I'm still
trying to get to the bottom of some anomalies in
subsequent citations of the _Evening Transcript_ text.
I hope I can save others in the future the hassle of
trying to make sense of incomplete and contradictory
references.StephenDate:	 Sat, 27 Aug 2005 15:39:48 +0100 (BST)
From:	"STEVE ROUD" <[unmask]>  
Subject:	Re: Wehman's Collection of Songs
To:	[unmask]
Stephen
I'm away from home, and the list won't accept a direct
posting from my daughter's computer - so could you
forward this the List?
 
Does Wehman 42 exist anyway? If I remember rightly
meade says 'Wehman Nos. 1-42'  but Norm Cohen's
Songster Bibliography only lists up to No.41.
 
Steve Roud		
____________________________________________________
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Title:         Wehman's collection of ... songs.
Published:     New York, Henry J. Wehman, 1886-1891.
LC Call No.:   M1628.W4C5>Library of Congress, Music Division.  There is a WWW site for 
>something like the Music Reading Room, and at that site is a form 
>through which you can request assistance.  In response to my request 
>for an item in Wehman's Collection, I was told that they have it, 
>that it is currently unavailable, and that I should make another 
>request after the first of the year.
>
>John
>
>>Stephen:
>>
>>This question you must take to the acknowledged master, Norm Cohen. 
>>Indeed, he may have a copy of the songster.
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Stephen Reynolds <[unmask]>
>>Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2005 1:42 pm
>>Subject: Wehman's Collection of Songs
>>
>>>  Does anyone know of a location for _Wehman's
>>>  Collection of Songs_ No. 42 (New York: Henry J.
>>>  Wehman, 1894)?
>>>
>>>  stephen_r1937 at yahoo.com
-- 
john garst    [unmask]

>Gentlemen:
>
>Let me add that I have two collections of some size gathered in the 
>1920s, as well as copies of the Gordon collections at  the Library 
>of Congress and University of Oregon.  There is no trace of  "House 
>of the Rising Sun" in these.
>
>EdGus Meade cites Gordon #925, Ed.  Do you have that one?Thanks.J

The notes for Old Homestead Records OHCD-4031, The Callahan Brothers, 
say that Homer C. "Bill" Callahan "and his family continue to reside 
in Dallas."  This CD is dated 2000, apparently, although this appears 
to be a CD reissue of a 1975 LP.  Bill Callahan was born March 27, 
1912, it says.  If he is still living, he would be 93 years old, not 
at all an unheard-of age.Let's hope.Does anyone know?Is there anyone living in Dallas who could visit him?The purpose would be to see if he remembers any verses of "House of 
the Rising Sun" that were not included in his 1935 recording entitled 
"Rounder's Luck."J

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Can anyone understand Roscoe Holcomb's "House in New Orleans"?  My 
effort at transcription from Smithsonian Folkways SF CD 40079, Roscoe 
Holcomb: the high lonesome sound, follows.Away on down in-a New Orleans,
Tell all juh Rising Sun,                  (?)
(It's) A many poor boy has kicked his arm (?)
And-a me, Oh Lord, for one.(It's) I'll never listen what another girl says,
Let her eye be dark or brown
Saying, 'less she's on that ol' scaffold high,
Saying, "Oh, Boys, I (?) cain't come down."Go tell my youngest brother
Not to do as I have done,
Let him shun the house down in New Orleans,
That they call the Rising Sun.The only thing that a ramb-er-ler needs
Is a suitcase or a trunk,
But the only time that he's satisfied
Is when he's on a drunk.Look up, look down that lonesome road,
Hang down your head and cry,
(It's) If you love me as I did you,
(Lord) You'd go with me or die.J

For HORS Gus Meade citesMcMurray, Vance
Home Songs
Oxford, OH: Vance McMurray
1937I don't find this "hillbilly song folio" in either the LOC catalog or WorldCat.Does anyone have it, or have a suggestion for locating a copy?J

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Thanks, Jonathan!  This definitely goes into the
biblio!Stephen--- Jonathan Lighter <[unmask]> wrote:> Re: "The Flying Cloud"
>  
> In his 1913 autobiography, _John Barleycorn_, Jack
> London mentions having learned "The Flying Cloud"
> and other sea songs on the Oakland waterfront in
> 1890-91 :
>  
>
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/Writings/JohnBarleycorn/chapter6.html
>  
> Unfortunately he gives no text of it. This is the
> earliest specifically recollected date for the song
> I know of.
>  
> JL
> __________________________________________________
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OK, John, LC looks like the best bet. I'll do this and
let you know what happened. Thanks.Stephen--- John Garst <[unmask]> wrote:> Title:         Wehman's collection of ... songs.
> Published:     New York, Henry J. Wehman, 1886-1891.
> LC Call No.:   M1628.W4C5
> 
> 
> >Library of Congress, Music Division.  There is a
> WWW site for 
> >something like the Music Reading Room, and at that
> site is a form 
> >through which you can request assistance.  In
> response to my request 
> >for an item in Wehman's Collection, I was told that
> they have it, 
> >that it is currently unavailable, and that I should
> make another 
> >request after the first of the year.
> >		
____________________________________________________
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Stephen,That's interesting. I'm looking at the interlibrary
request form from our library. They ask for author,
title, publisher, year, call number, ISBN (though i've
gotten material with only the title or author), and
borrower's data. The reference librarian looked up
other needed data-- including a list of holding
institutions-- on the spot. Perhaps you should try a
different library.C.Date:    Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:32:16 -0700
From:    Stephen Reynolds <[unmask]>
Subject: Re: Wehman's CollectionMultnomah County Public Library does an admirable job
(bless you, Ann and Julie!) of getting things on
interlibrary loan. However, aside from the
circumstance that interlibrary borrowing is currently
suspended for a month while they install a new digital
catalog, they require a reference in WorldCat;
otherwise I would have to supply the location, and
that is just what I don't have!Stephen

Name:    Homer C. Callahan   SSN:    272-12-4470    Last Residence:    
75211  Dallas, Dallas, Texas, United States of America   Born:    27 Mar 
1912   Died:    12 Sep 2002   State (Year) SSN issued:    Ohio (Before 
1951 )John Garst wrote:> The notes for Old Homestead Records OHCD-4031, The Callahan Brothers, 
> say that Homer C. "Bill" Callahan "and his family continue to reside 
> in Dallas."  This CD is dated 2000, apparently, although this appears 
> to be a CD reissue of a 1975 LP.  Bill Callahan was born March 27, 
> 1912, it says.  If he is still living, he would be 93 years old, not 
> at all an unheard-of age.
>
> Let's hope.
>
> Does anyone know?
>
> Is there anyone living in Dallas who could visit him?
>
> The purpose would be to see if he remembers any verses of "House of 
> the Rising Sun" that were not included in his 1935 recording entitled 
> "Rounder's Luck."
>
> J
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

--- Cliff Abrams <[unmask]> wrote:> Stephen,
> 
> That's interesting. I'm looking at the interlibrary
> request form from our library. They ask for author,
> title, publisher, year, call number, ISBN (though
> i've
> gotten material with only the title or author), and
> borrower's data. The reference librarian looked up
> other needed data-- including a list of holding
> institutions-- on the spot. Hello, Cliff! Yes, but dollars to doughnuts he or she
looked it up in WorldCat! They will do that at
MultCoLib too, if you can't do it yourself, but I am
happy to do it myself because I always have a chance
of serendipitously finding something relevant that I
didn't know about. WorldCat replaces the old hard-copy National Union
Catalog. I might be able to find it in another union
catalog such as ARLN or whatever they call it now, but
the nearest library that subscribes to it (it's more
academically oriented and pretty pricey) is 100 miles
away and I just haven't got there yet. > Perhaps you should try a different library.Locally, I think MultCo is about as good as it gets
for this sort of thing. None of our local institutions
of higher education, as far as I know, subscribes to
one of the expensive specialized catalogs. I have been
in this area for six years now, and I haven't found
any library with superior catalog resources so far. 
> 
Thanks for the suggestion, though. I suppose it
wouldn't do any harm to vist the three or four best
colleges/universities in the area if LC doesn't come
through.Stephen__________________________________________________
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The ILL Librarian will have to check this anyhow;
depending on which library they decide to request it
from, the relevant call number may be Dewey Decimal or
Library of Congress, and they are entirely different
from one another.Stephen--- Jonathan Lighter <[unmask]> wrote:> Our ILL form doesn't even ask for a call number.  (A
> WorldCat Accession Number is suggested but not
> required.)
>  
>  
> JL
> 
> Cliff Abrams <[unmask]> wrote:
> Stephen,
> 
> That's interesting. I'm looking at the interlibrary
> request form from our library. They ask for author,
> title, publisher, year, call number, ISBN (though
> i've
> gotten material with only the title or author), and
> borrower's data. The reference librarian looked up
> other needed data-- including a list of holding
> institutions-- on the spot. Perhaps you should try a
> different library.
> 
> C.
> __________________________________________________
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Hi!	Relevant to the current discussion, please note the songster
section of this list. :-)	SONGSTERS	6555862637 - Charles Diamond's Original Milanese Minstrel Songster, 
1880, $24.99 (ends Aug-30-05 19:02:10 PDT)	7345870527 - Wehman's Collection of 98 Songs No. 18, 1888, $5.99 
(ends Aug-31-05 18:30:08 PDT)	4552892243 - WEHMAN'S IRISH SONG BOOK NO 1, 1887, $39.75 (ends 
Sep-24-05 07:31:25 PDT)	4552892584 - WEHMAN'S IRISH SONG BOOK NO 3, 1893, $19.85 (ends 
Sep-24-05 07:32:07 PDT)	MISCELLANEOUS	4761786611 - Coppersongs, Copper Family, cassette, 1.99 GBP (ends 
Sep-04-05 10:58:38 PDT)
	
	SONGS & BALLADS	7344467078 - 2 books (Traditional Tunes by Kidson, 1999 reprint &
the Besom Maker and other Country Folk Songs by Sumner, 1998 reprint), 
6.01 GBP (ends Aug-28-05 13:30:14 PDT)	4571523893 - FOLKSONGS OF THE MARITIMES by Pottie & Ellis, 1982, 
$38 (ends Aug-28-05 21:30:23 PDT)	4570878136 - MORMON SONGS FROM THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS by Cheney, 1968,
$9.99 (ends Aug-30-05 20:21:46 PDT)	8329217385 - FOLK SONGS OF ABERDEENSHIRE by Duncan/SHULDHAM-SHAW, 
1967, 1.95 GBP (ends Aug-31-05 12:43:21 PDT)	6974354047 - THE MERRY MUSES by Burns, 1827 printing, 150 GBP 
(ends Aug-31-05 12:54:06 PDT)	4571178002 - WIT AND MIRTH OR PILLS TO PURGE MELANCHOLY by D'Urfey, 
6 volumes, 200? reprint, $175 (ends Aug-31-05 14:03:25 PDT)	4571487102 - Tall Ship Shanties by Davis, 1982, $4.99 (ends 
Sep-01-05 18:38:37 PDT)	4571595766 - Songs of the Sea by Hugill, 1977, $5 (ends Sep-02-05 
07:58:39 PDT)	6974178306 - THE SCOTS MUSICAL MUSEUM, 1787?, 50 GBP (ends 
Sep-02-05 11:00:00 PDT)	8329766182 - The Ballad Literature And Popular Music Of The Olden 
Time by Chappell, 2 volumes, 1965 Dover reprint, $9.99 (ends Sep-02-05 
04:16:00 PDT)	6554168073 - SINGING FAMILY OF THE CUMBERLANDS by Ritchie, 1955, 
$9.99 (ends Sep-03-05 10:30:00 PDT)	8329588435 - OLD ENGLISH DITTIES, 0.99 GBP (ends Sep-04-05 12:55:53 
PDT)	4567109839 - Pills To Purge Melancholy The Evolution of the 
English Ballett by Pike, 2004, $103.45 (ends Sep-05-05 08:13:08 PDT)	5235395830 - The Merry Muses of Caledonia by Burns, 1966 edition, 
3.50 GBP (ends Sep-05-05 15:24:00 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
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