Hi!	Just a short specialized list today. :-) 	The general folklore list will be posted in a couple of days. 	SONGSTERS & BROADSIDES	6551195244 - Gus Williams' Songster, 1869, $4.99 (ends Aug-11-05 
06:34:40 PDT)	6551480391 - Broadside, Annie Lisle, 1850?, $8.50 (ends Aug-12-05 
11:18:44 PDT)	6551707726 - HANK WHITE'S BURNT CORK SONGSTER, 1868, $24.99 
w/reserve (ends Aug-13-05 13:13:10 PDT)	6551996180 - Broadside, The Last Rose of Summer, 1860?, $0.10 
(ends Aug-14-05 18:41:14 PDT)	6551998431 - Broadside, When the Boys Come Home, 1860?, $0.10
(ends Aug-14-05 18:49:23 PDT)	BOOKS	6971776954 - Modern Street Ballads by Ashton, 1968 reprint, 5 GBP 
(ends Aug-13-05 02:59:11 PDT)	8324968886 - The Story of Street Literature by Collison, 1973, 
0.99 GBP (ends Aug-17-05 09:04:57 PDT)-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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I think this last item of Dolores's eBay list (5227442005 - A Scottish
Ballad Book by Buchan, 1973, 7.50 GBP) is the neat little book that
I left on a Scottish mountain and retrieved and then left at a Seattle
song circle and never retrieved.  That's the pathetic note (to discourage
competition).  Now to figure out the mechanics of bidding on the book...

"Re.  Heather's note: Mushrooms in ketchup? Bert Lloyd
was a creative man in more  ways than one."Mushroom ketchup is a real food. It comes out like
kind of a thick Worcestershire Sauce.C.

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Hi John,
In my liner notes (to the recording In Harmonys Way, where I lead
the chorus in 'Clementine' -- how's that for subtlety!) I give 
Dudley Laufman 'credit' for that musical miscegenation, though I 
heard it elsewhere first!  Why the combination is a 'folk' thing.  
Just to keep the record straight.  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

On 8/10/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:>One odd thing I've noticed about revival singers is that they rarely sing a trad song to other than the usual trad tune.  "Roots" singers often sang words to whatever tune they thought fit, either because they learned the words from a broadside or recitation, because they couldn't fully recall the tune they heard, because the range of the tune was too great for their voice, or simply because they preferred a different one.
> 
>Familiar tunes have become, if possible, even more sacred than familiar words.  The influence once again of a pop song mentality.I don't think this is true. Daithi Sproule set a tune for "Bloody
Waterloo" (and it's wonderful, and it's destroyed the real tune for
me). Connie Dover set a tune for "Somebody."This ignores cases like Ray Fisher setting a tune for "Willie's Lady,"
already cited. There was no tune, in that case, so she had to set one.
I don't think that counts.I think it's more a case of the fact that tunes tend to either be
preserved or not; no fragments. And if a tune is preserved, it's
usually good. Where it *isn't* all that good, as with "Bloody
Waterloo," revival singers have felt free to fiddle.And then there is Steeleye Span.... :-)-- 
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

John:Good to have you back.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:39 am
Subject: Re: Stage singers' alterations> Well, I stole King Willie from Martin Carthy, But Ray Fisher 
> married the
> tune and text.
> 
> JR
> 
> 
> On 8/10/05 10:15 AM, "[unmask]" <[unmask]> wrote:
> 
> > Boy, I've heard revival singers using all sorts of grafted, 
> borrowed and often
> > inappropriate tunes.  John Roberts sings King Willie to a 
> wonderful Breton
> > tune. Barbara Allen seems to be a favorite target,  Frog Went a 
> Courting and
> > Two Sisters often get the treatment.  Many truly bizarre tunes 
> are out there
> > for Gypsy Davey.  All sorts of British things are set to hymns 
> (like the Dog's
> > Meeting and the Goldfish),  and even Clementine (just ask Lani).
> >  
> > Mark G
> >  
> > In a message dated 8/10/2005 8:51:23 AM Central Standard Time,
> > [unmask] writes:
> >> One odd thing I've noticed about revival singers is that they 
> rarely sing a
> >> trad song to other than the usual trad tune.
> >  
> > 
> 
> 
> 

>On 8/10/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>One odd thing I've noticed about revival singers is that they 
>>rarely sing a trad song to other than the usual trad tune.  "Roots" 
>>singers often sang words to whatever tune they thought fit, either 
>>because they learned the words from a broadside or recitation, 
>>because they couldn't fully recall the tune they heard, because the 
>>range of the tune was too great for their voice, or simply because 
>>they preferred a different one.
>>
>  >Familiar tunes have become, if possible, even more sacred than 
>familiar words.  The influence once again of a pop song mentality.I love the ballad, The Frozen Logger, attributed by Alan Lomax (The 
Folk Songs of North America, 1960) to one James Stephens and, 
according to
http://www.umsystem.edu/whmc/invent/3826aclist.html
"composed in 1930's by James Stephens, H.L. Davis, Stewart Halbrook." 
(I've no idea who these people are/were.)I don't like the tune given by Lomax, which I've also heard in folkie 
recordings.I sing it to the hymn-tune ORTONVILLE (attr Thomas Hastings, 1837). 
I think this text and tune are a wonderful fit, and ORTONVILLE 
provides for repeating the last line.  You can have the crowd join in 
that repeat, if you wish.I see that you are a logger
And not just a common bum,
For nobody but a logger
Stirs his coffee with his thumb,
Stirs his coffee with his thumb.J

http://www3.clearlight.com/~acsa/introjs.htm?/~acsa/songfile/FROZENLO.HTMThere are numerous versions of the song. The nearest to an original 
version seems to be the following, from Bunk Shanty Ballads and Tales 
by James Stevens:As I set down one evening in a timber town cafe
A six foot-seven waitress, to me these words did say
"I see you are a logger and not a common bum
For no one but a logger stirs his coffee with his thumb"My lover was a logger, there's none like him today
If you'd sprinkle whisky on it, he'd eat a bale of hay
He never shaved the whiskers from off his horny hide
But he'd pound 'em in with a hammer, then bite 'em off inside"My lover came to see me one freezing winter day
He held me in a fond embrace that broke three vertebrae
He kissed me when we parted so hard it broke my jaw
And I could not speak to tell him he'd forgot his mackinaw"I watched my logger lover going through the snow
A-sauntering gaily homeward at forty eight below
The weather tried to freeze him, it tried it's level best
At a hundred degrees below zero, he buttoned up his vest"It froze clean down to China, it froze to the stars above
At one thousand degrees below zero it froze my logger love
They tried in vain to thaw him and if you'll believe me, sir
They made him into ax blades to chop the Douglas fir"That's how I lost my lover and to this caffay I come
And here I wait till someone stirs his coffee with his thumb
And then I tell my story of my love they could not thaw
Who kissed me when we parted so hard he broke my jaw"********
http://www.deaddisc.com/songs/Frozen_Logger.htmComposer: James Stevens / Ivar Haglund / Traditional
********Strangely, WorldCat contains no record of such a book.J

http://www.common-place.org/vol-05/no-04/school/"Frozen Logger," anon., lyrics found in James Stevens, Bunk Shanty 
Ballads and Tales (1949)J

>http://www.common-place.org/vol-05/no-04/school/
>
>"Frozen Logger," anon., lyrics found in James Stevens, Bunk Shanty 
>Ballads and Tales (1949)It's not a book.  Now that I refresh my memory a little, I think I 
copied this once:http://oscar.ctc.edu/history/writers.htmStevens, James. "Bunk Shanty Ballads and Tales: The Annual Society 
Address." Oregon Historical Quarterly L (1949): 235-242.J

http://www.arts.wa.gov/progFA/woodworks/faWoodworks2.htmlIn 1926, James Stevens, a native of Bend, Oregon, wrote the 
best-known Northwest logging song of all, "The Frozen Logger," which 
is still often sung today at logging shows.  (See page inside back 
cover).  This song has become part of tradition, as it has numerous 
versions, as well as several parodies.
********Writ by Stevens or not, it is obviously now a folk song.I wonder where the "usual" tune came from.J

It may be of interest to know that the "Song Title Index" at the Northeast Archives of Folklore and Oral History here at UM, which has one of the best (if not the best) collection of woodmen's lore in the country, contains not a single reference for
the song.Cheers
JamieForum for ballad scholars <[unmask]> on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 at 2:45 PM -0500 wrote:
>http://www.arts.wa.gov/progFA/woodworks/faWoodworks2.html
>
>In 1926, James Stevens, a native of Bend, Oregon, wrote the 
>best-known Northwest logging song of all, "The Frozen Logger," which 
>is still often sung today at logging shows.  (See page inside back 
>cover).  This song has become part of tradition, as it has numerous 
>versions, as well as several parodies.
>********
>
>Writ by Stevens or not, it is obviously now a folk song.
>
>I wonder where the "usual" tune came from.
>
>J

>It may be of interest to know that the "Song Title Index" at the 
>Northeast Archives of Folklore and Oral History here at UM, which 
>has one of the best (if not the best) collection of woodmen's lore 
>in the country, contains not a single reference for
>the song.
>
>Cheers
>JamieThe page cited below indicates that it has been widely sung for a 
long time in Oregon/Washington and that it has many variants.>
>
>Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]> on 
>Wednesday, August 10, 2005 at 2:45 PM -0500 wrote:
>>http://www.arts.wa.gov/progFA/woodworks/faWoodworks2.html
>>
>>In 1926, James Stevens, a native of Bend, Oregon, wrote the
>>best-known Northwest logging song of all, "The Frozen Logger," which
>>is still often sung today at logging shows.  (See page inside back
>>cover).  This song has become part of tradition, as it has numerous
>>versions, as well as several parodies.
>>********
>>
>>Writ by Stevens or not, it is obviously now a folk song.
>>
>>I wonder where the "usual" tune came from.
>>
>>J

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BALLAD-L automatic digest system <[unmask]>, in
the person of Mark G, writes:> Boy, I've heard revival singers using all sorts of grafted, borrowed
> and often inappropriate tunes.  John Roberts sings King Willie to a
> wonderful Breton tune. Barbara Allen seems to be a favorite target,
> Frog Went a Courting and Two Sisters often get the treatment.  Many
> truly bizarre tunes are out there for Gypsy Davey.  All sorts of
> British things are set to hymns (like the Dog's Meeting and the
> Goldfish), and even Clementine (just ask Lani).I am not a stage singer, but at swaps I have made bold to steal the
tune to "Queen Eleanor's Confession", as sung by MacColl & Seeger, for
Kipling's "Ballad of Minepit Shaw".  I propagated it for some years
before hearing another tune, on Roberts & Barrands tape.  It probably
has some small oral circulation in the Boston area.  However, I have
always mentioned where I got the tune, and I sometimes sing the
original song, which has a certain nasty charm (I especially like the
increasingly desperate "Amen, amen!").
-- 
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Because of the market, what is overrated is overpriced.   :||
||:  Because of foolishness, what is overpriced is overrated.  :||

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I have now seen Edith Fowke, "The Red River Valley" Re-Examined, 
Western Folklore 23 (1964): 163-72.  To me, the case she makes for 
the association of the song with the Red River Rebellion in Canada 
seems pretty good.  One of her major points is that "Red River 
Valley" was sung in Canada well before the publication of "In the 
Bright Mohawk Valley" by James J. Kerrigan in 1896.She cites the latter publication as follows:****
"In the Bright Mohawk Valley."  Words and music by James J. Kerrigan 
(New York: Howley, Haviland & Co., copyright 1896), Sheet music.
****and she gives 4 stanzas and a chorus said to be from that publication."Q," who discusses this song on the Mudcat Forumhttp://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=63785and who may be a list member here, sees Kerrigan's publication as a 
phantom.  He/she has been unable to track it down.  I've tried a 
little WWW work on this with no success either.  Sandburg and Spaeth 
refer to this alleged sheet music without giving any details at all. 
 From the copious details given by Fowke, however, it appears that she 
*did* see it (or she was awfully good at faking it).  Meade, in his 
Country Music Sources, also refers to Kerrigan.  Further, it appears 
that the Library of Congress once had a catalog entry for Kerrigan, 
but for some reason it has disappeared or, at least, is not in the 
on-line catalog.Meade's notes suggest that he traced the text to "A Lady in Love," 
Wehman's Collection of Songs #24 (Oct. 1889), p 17 (NYC: Henry J. 
Wehman, 1884-94, 42 issues).Does anyone know "A Lady in Love" or have access to Wehman (or 
Delaney's Song Book #13)?Does anyone know anything about the mysterious Kerrigan sheet music?Thanks,John

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John:Of one thing you may be sure: Edith Fowke never faked anything.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:48 pm
Subject: Red River Valley again> I have now seen Edith Fowke, "The Red River Valley" Re-Examined, 
> Western Folklore 23 (1964): 163-72.  To me, the case she makes for 
> the association of the song with the Red River Rebellion in Canada 
> seems pretty good.  One of her major points is that "Red River 
> Valley" was sung in Canada well before the publication of "In the 
> Bright Mohawk Valley" by James J. Kerrigan in 1896.
> 
> She cites the latter publication as follows:
> 
> ****
> "In the Bright Mohawk Valley."  Words and music by James J. 
> Kerrigan 
> (New York: Howley, Haviland & Co., copyright 1896), Sheet music.
> ****
> 
> and she gives 4 stanzas and a chorus said to be from that publication.
> 
> "Q," who discusses this song on the Mudcat Forum
> 
> http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=63785
> 
> and who may be a list member here, sees Kerrigan's publication as a 
> phantom.  He/she has been unable to track it down.  I've tried a 
> little WWW work on this with no success either.  Sandburg and 
> Spaeth 
> refer to this alleged sheet music without giving any details at 
> all. 
> From the copious details given by Fowke, however, it appears that 
> she 
> *did* see it (or she was awfully good at faking it).  Meade, in his 
> Country Music Sources, also refers to Kerrigan.  Further, it 
> appears 
> that the Library of Congress once had a catalog entry for Kerrigan, 
> but for some reason it has disappeared or, at least, is not in the 
> on-line catalog.
> 
> Meade's notes suggest that he traced the text to "A Lady in Love," 
> Wehman's Collection of Songs #24 (Oct. 1889), p 17 (NYC: Henry J. 
> Wehman, 1884-94, 42 issues).
> 
> Does anyone know "A Lady in Love" or have access to Wehman (or 
> Delaney's Song Book #13)?
> 
> Does anyone know anything about the mysterious Kerrigan sheet music?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John
> 

Delaney's Song Book No.13 [Sep 1896] p.18 has a text of IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK 
VALLEY, headed
'Words and music by James J, Kerrigan, copyright 1896 by Howley, Haviland & 
Co.'No sign of any song called A LADY IN LOVEI don't have the WehmanSteve Roud----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:48 PM
Subject: Red River Valley again>I have now seen Edith Fowke, "The Red River Valley" Re-Examined, Western 
>Folklore 23 (1964): 163-72.  To me, the case she makes for the association 
>of the song with the Red River Rebellion in Canada seems pretty good.  One 
>of her major points is that "Red River Valley" was sung in Canada well 
>before the publication of "In the Bright Mohawk Valley" by James J. 
>Kerrigan in 1896.
>
> She cites the latter publication as follows:
>
> ****
> "In the Bright Mohawk Valley."  Words and music by James J. Kerrigan (New 
> York: Howley, Haviland & Co., copyright 1896), Sheet music.
> ****
>
> and she gives 4 stanzas and a chorus said to be from that publication.
>
> "Q," who discusses this song on the Mudcat Forum
>
> http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=63785
>
> and who may be a list member here, sees Kerrigan's publication as a 
> phantom.  He/she has been unable to track it down.  I've tried a little 
> WWW work on this with no success either.  Sandburg and Spaeth refer to 
> this alleged sheet music without giving any details at all. From the 
> copious details given by Fowke, however, it appears that she *did* see it 
> (or she was awfully good at faking it).  Meade, in his Country Music 
> Sources, also refers to Kerrigan.  Further, it appears that the Library of 
> Congress once had a catalog entry for Kerrigan, but for some reason it has 
> disappeared or, at least, is not in the on-line catalog.
>
> Meade's notes suggest that he traced the text to "A Lady in Love," 
> Wehman's Collection of Songs #24 (Oct. 1889), p 17 (NYC: Henry J. Wehman, 
> 1884-94, 42 issues).
>
> Does anyone know "A Lady in Love" or have access to Wehman (or Delaney's 
> Song Book #13)?
>
> Does anyone know anything about the mysterious Kerrigan sheet music?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
> 

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Heather:Fear not.  Edith was a fine scholar, a gentle woman, and, Kenneth Goldstein avers, a helluva singer of bawdy songs.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Wood <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:55 pm
Subject: Re: Red River Valley again> In a message dated 8/10/2005 5:08:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
> [unmask] 
> writes:
> Of one thing you may be sure: Edith Fowke never faked anything.
> Ed, is your tongue firmly in your cheek??
> 
> I'd be interested in others' comments, because as a (relatively, 
> then -late 
> 1960s) young folkie I was told to distrust her scholarship.
> 
> Heather
> 

I've always trusted her scholarship. She really did
her homework! 
     Sandy (in Connecticut)--- edward cray <[unmask]> wrote:> Heather:
> 
> Fear not.  Edith was a fine scholar, a gentle woman,
> and, Kenneth Goldstein avers, a helluva singer of
> bawdy songs.
> 
> Ed
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Heather Wood <[unmask]>
> Date: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:55 pm
> Subject: Re: Red River Valley again
> 
> > In a message dated 8/10/2005 5:08:00 PM Eastern
> Standard Time, 
> > [unmask] 
> > writes:
> > Of one thing you may be sure: Edith Fowke never
> faked anything.
> > Ed, is your tongue firmly in your cheek??
> > 
> > I'd be interested in others' comments, because as
> a (relatively, 
> > then -late 
> > 1960s) young folkie I was told to distrust her
> scholarship.
> > 
> > Heather
> > 
> 

Frank Hamilton told me that Earl Robinson composed the "usual" melody 
to this song.-Adam Miller
Woodside, CA
http://folksinging.orgOn Aug 10, 2005, at 3:12 PM, John Garst wrote:>> It may be of interest to know that the "Song Title Index" at the 
>> Northeast Archives of Folklore and Oral History here at UM, which has 
>> one of the best (if not the best) collection of woodmen's lore in the 
>> country, contains not a single reference for
>> the song.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Jamie
>
> The page cited below indicates that it has been widely sung for a long 
> time in Oregon/Washington and that it has many variants.
>
>>
>>
>> Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]> on 
>> Wednesday, August 10, 2005 at 2:45 PM -0500 wrote:
>>> http://www.arts.wa.gov/progFA/woodworks/faWoodworks2.html
>>>
>>> In 1926, James Stevens, a native of Bend, Oregon, wrote the
>>> best-known Northwest logging song of all, "The Frozen Logger," which
>>> is still often sung today at logging shows.  (See page inside back
>>> cover).  This song has become part of tradition, as it has numerous
>>> versions, as well as several parodies.
>>> ********
>>>
>>> Writ by Stevens or not, it is obviously now a folk song.
>>>
>>> I wonder where the "usual" tune came from.
>>>
>>> J
>

Hello all:It kind of drives me crazy to hear someone sing a song and then not be able to find the melody, lyrics and chords on a website.  Is there a good website for the old gospel hymns with the above information on it somewhere?  Please share with me if you would. "The Lights of the City "  is as followsJohn tell us of a city so high up above
There we'll meet  in a spirit of  love.
We'll meet over yonder in that heavenly place
There we'll see each other face to face. Chorus
I can almost see the lights of the city shining down on me.
I can almost see the lights of the city forever Lord I shall be free. Supposedly learned in a Catholic church in Epiphany, Ky. Thanks:SRich

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>Delaney's Song Book No.13 [Sep 1896] p.18 has a text of IN THE BRIGHT MOHAWK
>VALLEY, headed 'Words and music by James J, Kerrigan, copyright 1896 
>by Howley, Haviland & Co.'
>...
>Steve RoudSteve,Here is the info provided by Fowke in her 1964 paper in Western 
Folklore.  Do the words match Delaney's?In the Bright Mohawk Valley
Words and music by James J. Kerrigan
New York: Howley, Haviland & Co.
Copyright 1896
Sheet musicOh they say from this valley you're going,
We shall miss your sweet face and bright smile,
You will take with you all the sunshine
That has gladdened our hearts for awhile.I have waited a long time my darling,
For those words that your lips ne'er would say,
Now the hope from my heart has departed,
And I'm told you're going away.Chorus:
For the sake of the past, do not leave me,
Do not hasten to bid me adieu!
Oh, remain in this bright Mohawk valley,
With the fond heart that lives but for you.Do you think of the valley you're leaving?
Oh, how dreary 'twill be when you go,
Have you thought of the heart, so lonely,
That has loved you and cherished you so.Tell me not that our lives must be severed,
Give me back, love, the smile once so dear,
Oh! this valley would lost (sic) all its brightness,
If its fairest of flow'rs were not here.Thanks,John

Earl may have thought so, but to my ear it is remarkably similar to "Nellie
Dare and Charlie Brooks," oft recorded in the '20s but probably from the
1890s.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Miller" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: Frozen Logger> Frank Hamilton told me that Earl Robinson composed the "usual" melody
> to this song.
>
> -Adam Miller
> Woodside, CA
> http://folksinging.org
>
>
>
> On Aug 10, 2005, at 3:12 PM, John Garst wrote:
>
> >> It may be of interest to know that the "Song Title Index" at the
> >> Northeast Archives of Folklore and Oral History here at UM, which has
> >> one of the best (if not the best) collection of woodmen's lore in the
> >> country, contains not a single reference for
> >> the song.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >> Jamie
> >
> > The page cited below indicates that it has been widely sung for a long
> > time in Oregon/Washington and that it has many variants.
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]> on
> >> Wednesday, August 10, 2005 at 2:45 PM -0500 wrote:
> >>> http://www.arts.wa.gov/progFA/woodworks/faWoodworks2.html
> >>>
> >>> In 1926, James Stevens, a native of Bend, Oregon, wrote the
> >>> best-known Northwest logging song of all, "The Frozen Logger," which
> >>> is still often sung today at logging shows.  (See page inside back
> >>> cover).  This song has become part of tradition, as it has numerous
> >>> versions, as well as several parodies.
> >>> ********
> >>>
> >>> Writ by Stevens or not, it is obviously now a folk song.
> >>>
> >>> I wonder where the "usual" tune came from.
> >>>
> >>> J
> >
>

Hi,
If my memory serves me correctly the last time I heard it sung was on the
TV in a Monty Python sketch, sung by Michael Palin, and the tune he used
was a relative of the 'Good Ship Venus'/'In and out the windows'/'so early
in the morning/Blue-tail Fly' tune.
SteveG

Hi,
This may be a red herring but Owens in Texas Folk Songs 2000 reprint
states, 'In The Bright Mohawk Valley' was composed and published as sheet
music in the middle of the 19th century'. He gives a version titled 'The
Bright Sherman Valley. Brown NCF has 'Sherman Valley' and 'Laurel Valley'.
Has anyone checked Levy?
Steve

Hi'
Think I got the thread right this time.
Encyclopaedia of Music in Canada, 'Later research by EF INDICATES that it
was known in 5 Canadian provinces before 1896' Does anyone with access to
Edith's research papers know of the provenance of this statement? The
word 'indicates' doesn't sound very convincing.
Steve

>Hi'
>Think I got the thread right this time.
>Encyclopaedia of Music in Canada, 'Later research by EF INDICATES that it
>was known in 5 Canadian provinces before 1896' Does anyone with access to
>Edith's research papers know of the provenance of this statement? The
>word 'indicates' doesn't sound very convincing.
>SteveSteve,I have a copy of Fowke's paper."Since 1954 considerable evidence has come to light showing that 'The 
Red River Valley' was sung in Canada well before 1896, and it now 
seems practically certain that the song originally commemorated not 
the bright Mohawk Valley or the Red River Valley of Texas, but the 
Red River that flows into Lake Winnipeg.  There are several 
indications that the song was sung in Canada during the North-West 
Rebellion of 1869, commonly known as the Red River Rebellion, and 
that it then told of the love of a half-breed girl for one of the 
British soldiers who came west to suppress the rising.""'Here is my own testimony.  I left the Miramichi about 1894.  The 
song was well-known to me there.'"  From Lord Beaverbrook (Oct. 7, 
1955)."'I remember hearing this song as far back as 1891...I know my father 
was living then and he died in 1892.'"  From J. S. Wiggins, St. 
Vital, Manitoba (March 3, 1956)."Early in 1960 Hugh Dempsey, archivist of the Glenbow Foundation, a 
historical research organization in Calgary, came across a version of 
'The Red River Valley' in an undated clipping from the Calgary Herald 
among the papers of Col. Gilbert E. Sanders who had been a member of 
the North-West Mounted Police in 1885."  This version refers to the 
"half-breed who loved you so true," "your home by the ocean," "love 
for the boy who came west," and "the dark maiden's prayer for her 
love."  It is said to be typical of the earliest known versions. 
Similar texts are found in Missouri (Max Hunter Collection on line). 
Such texts are consistent with a romance between a soldier from the 
east (of Canada) and an Indian ("dark," "half-breed") woman who lives 
in the Red River Valley of the North."J. E. A. MacLeod...recalled that he heard the song in Cape Breton, 
Nova Scotia, before he left there in 1892 for the west, and that it 
was his understanding that it referred to a half-breed girl and a 
militia man.""Senator Gladstone of Cardston, Alberta, also remembered hearing the 
song during his school days in Pincher Creek, Alberta, in 1894.""Mrs. Jack Bullough...remembered having heard it 'at a medicine show 
in Finch, in the Ottawa valley' when she was seven years old..." 
(1891)."...Mrs. G. J. Buck of Regina wrote (Sept. 4, 1960)" that her mother 
remembered "The Red River Valley" being sung when her older brother 
was engaged to be married.  He was married in 1887."Mrs. Jessie M Bresnaham of Watino, Alberta wrote" that she had heard 
the song "many times in 1888 in Manitoba, 80 miles southwest of 
Winnipeg...""Mr. J. L. Williamson of Glen Lake, British Columbia, wrote (August 
6, 1962)...My first recollection of hearing that song would be about 
1887 but definitely not later than 1888...""...Mr. William Ferguson of Drumheller, Alberta, wrote (July 29, 
1962): 'I learned the Red River Valley song off by heart in the 
middle '90's when only 8 years old.  I was born in 1887 and I always 
thought it was written in Manitoba on the Red River."Fowke observes that many of these recollections are tied to life 
events that "make error unlikely.  It might be assumed that one or 
two such reports resulted from faulty memory, but the total is 
convincing."  She believes that "while the earlieest date mentioned 
is 1887, it is obvious that the song must have originated 
considerably before that date in order to have become so widely 
distributed at a time when transportation in Canada was comparatively 
primitive."  Actually, I don't find this argument convincing, and I'm 
anxious to see what Gus Meade turned up in Wehman's Collection of 
Songs, "A Lady in Love."Fowke considers it "significant that it does not appear in the 
comprehensive collection of cowboy songs published by John Lomax in 
1910, and when it was included in the revised edition, Cowboy Songs 
and Other Frontier Ballads, in 1938, it was drawn from two other 
songbooks published in 1932.  Only D. J. O'Malley places it in the 
American west as early as the 1880s.Fowke cites "a pencil manuscript in the Edwin Ford Piper collection 
at the University of Iowa which bears the notation at the bottom: 
'Namaha 1879, Harlow 1885.'"  The text is similar to early Canadian 
ones, so it is plausible that it came to Iowa from Canada.Fowke cites and summarizes various pieces of correspondence received 
by Robert W. Gordon, dating the song as far back as "about 1860," 
1869, 1883, 1888, 1891, etc."W. B. Rawson wrote: 'It is supposed to have been half-breed girl's 
farewell to her lover, a soldier in the Wolseley Red River Expedition 
in the 70's.""...R. B. Wallace: 'Some years ago a friend whose home was in 
Montreal told me that at one time a crack Canadian regiment had been 
stationed in the Red River Valley locality.  The officers were well 
thought of socially, but seem to have philandered among the Indian 
girls to some extent.  The white girls, of course, resented this, and 
at a farewell ball givven to the officers on the occasion of their 
transfer, the young lady who composed this song rose and sang it, 
much to the embarassment of the ones at whom it was aimed.'"Fowke cites other testimony dating RRV to 1868 in Canada.  Mrs. 
Ashley Lunham of Minden, Ontario, wrote...on May 24, 1960" that her 
great grandmother "had in her possession the original copy of this 
song as a poem and she was very fond of it in its musical setting." 
The poem had been written in the east by Jethro de la Roche, who was 
broken-hearted that his love, Amaryllis Milligan, would not marry him 
because she had come down with tuberculosis.  "Apparently it was 
composed as a poem in the east, set to music and had verses 
appropriate added in the west" (at the time of the Red River 
Rebellion), then brought back east.The evidence of a Canadian origin is highly circumstantial and 
testimonial.  It reminds me of "John Henry."I suspect that these accounts fail to consider properly published 
versions of relatives.John-- 
john garst    [unmask]

Are you confusing this with his performance of "I'm a Lumberjack and I'm
OK"? I don't recall him doing the Frozen Logger, but I haven't seen them all
- yet.JROn 8/11/05 2:52 PM, "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]> wrote:> Hi,
> If my memory serves me correctly the last time I heard it sung was on the
> TV in a Monty Python sketch, sung by Michael Palin, and the tune he used
> was a relative of the 'Good Ship Venus'/'In and out the windows'/'so early
> in the morning/Blue-tail Fly' tune.
> SteveG

John,
This is very likely. My confused recollection certainly includes 'I'm a 
lumberjack' but I thought Michael sang them both together using 'I'm a 
lumberjack' as the chorus or a sort of medley. If not then I must have heard 
it someplace else.
Steve>From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
>Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
>To: [unmask]
>Subject: Re: Frozen Logger
>Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 16:31:14 -0400
>
>Are you confusing this with his performance of "I'm a Lumberjack and I'm
>OK"? I don't recall him doing the Frozen Logger, but I haven't seen them 
>all
>- yet.
>
>JR
>
>
>
>
>
>On 8/11/05 2:52 PM, "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > If my memory serves me correctly the last time I heard it sung was on 
>the
> > TV in a Monty Python sketch, sung by Michael Palin, and the tune he used
> > was a relative of the 'Good Ship Venus'/'In and out the windows'/'so 
>early
> > in the morning/Blue-tail Fly' tune.
> > SteveG_________________________________________________________________
Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends 
http://messenger.msn.co.uk

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				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Sir:Excuse me, but there is no more appropriate tune for one of the most commonly found bawdy songs, the "The Fucking Machine," than the grand old hymn known as "Old Hundred."  Ed
 ----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:21 pm
Subject: Re: Stage singers' alterations> 
> Well, for one thing, mixing genres such as singing Barbara Allen to 
> a 50's  
> BeBop or Honky-Tonk Blues.  For another, some bawdy or scatalogical 
> parody  set 
> to a hymn tune.  Those are pretty gross examples, but there are 
> tons of  more 
> subtle ones.  For example, you can set "Amazing Grace" to 
> Sullivan's  "We 
> Sail the Ocean Blue".  "Inappropriate" isn't necessarily 
> perjorative,  it's just 
> a question of using a tune which has a very different  connotation.
> 
> In a message dated 8/11/2005 9:43:46 PM Central Standard Time,  
> [unmask] writes:
> 
> What makes a tune  "inappropriate?"
> 
> 
> 
> 

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I'm personally fond of "The Wild Colonial Boy" set to
"Ghost Riders In the Sky" -- "too ra lie-aye, too ra
lie-oh, the wild colonial boy."Linn--- edward cray <[unmask]> wrote:> Sir:
> 
> Excuse me, but there is no more appropriate tune for
> one of the most commonly found bawdy songs, the "The
> Fucking Machine," than the grand old hymn known as
> "Old Hundred."  
> 
> Ed
>  
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [unmask]
> Date: Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:21 pm
> Subject: Re: Stage singers' alterations
> > > 
> > Well, for one thing, mixing genres such as singing
> Barbara Allen to   a 50's  
> > BeBop or Honky-Tonk Blues.  For another, some
> bawdy or scatalogical   parody  set 
> > to a hymn tune.  Those are pretty gross examples,
> but there are  tons of  more 
> > subtle ones.  For example, you can set "Amazing
> Grace" to  Sullivan's  "We 
> > Sail the Ocean Blue".  "Inappropriate" isn't
> necessarily   perjorative,  it's just 
> > a question of using a tune which has a very
> different  connotation.
> > 
> > In a message dated 8/11/2005 9:43:46 PM Centr
Standard Time,  
> > [unmask] writes:
> > 
> > What makes a tune  "inappropriate?"******************************************************************
Linn S. Schulz
Writing - Editing - Research - Print Design & Production
phone/fax 603-942-7604
62 Priest Road, Nottingham, NH 03290  USA******************************************************************		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs 
 

Just "revival singers"?  I seem to recall Jean Ritchie (not in singing
Family of the Cumberlands -- I just checked -- it must have been on stage
in Mandel Hall) telling how her Uncle Jason,  on at least one old song,
kind of picking an appropriate tune "out of the air."  My impression was
that some songs, even "in the tradition," were much more strongly wedded
to a particular tune than others....

On 8/11/05, edward cray wrote:>Sir:
>
>Excuse me, but there is no more appropriate tune for one of the most commonly found bawdy songs, the "The Fucking Machine," than the grand old hymn known as "Old Hundred."But that's not bidirectional. Conceding the parodic aspect of setting
bawdy songs to hymn tunes, it doesn't really work the other way. I
doubt many people would feel comfortable to the idea of, say, "A
Mighty Fortress" sung to the tune of "Roll Me Over...."My other notion of "inappropriate" would be something that just
conveys the wrong feel -- e.g. "The Lyke-Wake Dirge" to "Turkey
in the Straw."(Note: I have not parsed the above examples to see if they're possible.
I'm just trying to give the idea.)-- 
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

For Ed Cray, who is in line for an ARSC award on accounta his Woody Guthrie
book. He is competing with Tony Russell's long overdue discography of early
Country Music, and of course the ubiquitous Elijah Wald is up for Escaping
the Delta. If anybody's interested, I can forward the notice, which was forwarded from
another list that I'm on.A. Cohen

>Well, for one thing, mixing genres such as singing Barbara Allen to 
>a 50's BeBop or Honky-Tonk Blues.  For another, some bawdy or 
>scatalogical parody set to a hymn tune.  Those are pretty gross 
>examples, but there are tons of more subtle ones.  For example, you 
>can set "Amazing Grace" to Sullivan's "We Sail the Ocean Blue". 
>"Inappropriate" isn't necessarily perjorative, it's just a question 
>of using a tune which has a very different connotation.
>
>In a message dated 8/11/2005 9:43:46 PM Central Standard Time, 
>[unmask] writes:
>
>         What makes a tune "inappropriate?"Paraphrasing somebody, "Why should God have all the good tunes?"J

>Just "revival singers"?  I seem to recall Jean Ritchie (not in singing
>Family of the Cumberlands -- I just checked -- it must have been on stage
>in Mandel Hall) telling how her Uncle Jason,  on at least one old song,
>kind of picking an appropriate tune "out of the air."  My impression was
>that some songs, even "in the tradition," were much more strongly wedded
>to a particular tune than others....And, of course, until recently hymns had no set tunes.  There was a 
stock of tunes with various meters and a stock of hymns with various 
meters.  On any occasion you made a metrical match that was one among 
many possible ones.J

If anyone has a copy of this tape of field recordings made for Camp Woodland
and is willing to make a cd-r or tape dub, please contact me off list. 
THANKS!
Best wishes, Thomas.

Andy and all:As I understand it, the award is for the best research in recorded music.  There really is damn little "discography" in _Ramblin' Man._  So on that ground alone I would cede pride of place to my neighbor Elijah (who deserves congratulations for his pending marriage) or to Mr. Russell.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Andy <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, August 12, 2005 6:17 am
Subject: Congrats are in order> For Ed Cray, who is in line for an ARSC award on accounta his Woody 
> Guthriebook. He is competing with Tony Russell's long overdue 
> discography of early
> Country Music, and of course the ubiquitous Elijah Wald is up for 
> Escapingthe Delta. 
> 
> If anybody's interested, I can forward the notice, which was 
> forwarded from
> another list that I'm on.
> 
> A. Cohen
> 

Linn Schulz wrote:
> I'm personally fond of "The Wild Colonial Boy" set to
> "Ghost Riders In the Sky" -- "too ra lie-aye, too ra
> lie-oh, the wild colonial boy."Going beyond folk texts:  "Jabberwocky" to "Greensleeves"William Blake's "Tyger, Tyger" to "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star".It has been proven that anything can be sung to the tune of "A Bicycle 
Built For Two" -- whether it should be or not.-- 
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Clutterers Anonymous unofficial community 
http://www.livejournal.com/community/clutterers_anon/
Decluttering http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

what sounds right is appropriate. Whatever worksdick greenhausEdie Gale Hays wrote:> Mark G  <[unmask]> wrote:
> >Boy, I've heard revival singers using all sorts of grafted,
> >borrowed and often inappropriate tunes. 
>
> What makes a tune "inappropriate?"
>
> Edie Gale Hays
> [unmask]

on 8/12/05 9:38 AM, John Garst at [unmask] wrote:> Paraphrasing somebody, "Why should God have all the good tunes?"
> 
> JThe somebody, if anybody here is interested, was Dr. Isaac Watts, and he
referred not to God but to the devil. he thougyht it was unfair that secular
music should sound great and religious music should be snore-death.A. Cohen

>on 8/12/05 9:38 AM, John Garst at [unmask] wrote:
>
>>  Paraphrasing somebody, "Why should God have all the good tunes?"
>>
>>  J
>
>The somebody, if anybody here is interested, was Dr. Isaac Watts, and he
>referred not to God but to the devil. he thougyht it was unfair that secular
>music should sound great and religious music should be snore-death.
>
>A. CohenI really doubt that it was Watts.  It has been attributed to Luther, 
as I recall, and I think also to Wesley, but I'm not sure that 
anybody knows who, if anyone, really wrote or said this.J

An internet site attributes the quote to Rowland Hill * English preacher (1744 - 1833).  "Why must the devil have all the best tunes?"  According to E.W. Broome's bio, Hill said this referring to Charles Wesley's defense of the practice of setting hymns to the music of popular songs.  Variations of the phrase also done by William Booth- Founder of the Salvation Army (1829-1912).   Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 8/12/2005 1:33:58 PM >>>
on 8/12/05 9:38 AM, John Garst at [unmask] wrote:> Paraphrasing somebody, "Why should God have all the good tunes?"
> 
> JThe somebody, if anybody here is interested, was Dr. Isaac Watts, and he
referred not to God but to the devil. he thougyht it was unfair that secular
music should sound great and religious music should be snore-death.A. Cohen

FWIW.  In favor of Fowke's position, it seems to me that the 
"Canadian" version of the text has been far more widespread than the 
"cowboy" version.  Looking in song books ca 1930, I still find more 
"Canadian" versions (though my sample is not all that large), even in 
cowboy song books.I have before me Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs, Compiled by 
Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John, n.p., n.d., but apparently ca 1930. 
(Through WorldCat I learned of 4 libraries with this book, and the 
catalog entry dates it "1930-1934?")  Anyhow, it gives a 10-verse 
version as follows.RED RIVER VALLEY From this valley they say you are going;
We will miss your bright eyes and sweet smile;
For they say you are taking the sunshine,
That brightens our pathway awhile.Come and sit by my side if you love me,
Do not hasten to bid me adieu.
But remember the Red River Valley,
And the girl who has loved you so true.For a long time I've waited, my darling,
For those words that you never would say.
But at last all my fond hopes have vanished,
For they say you are going away.Won't you think of the valley you're leaving,
Oh, how lonely, how sad it will be.
Oh, think of the fond heart you're breaking,
And the grief you have caused me to see. From this valley they say you are going,
When you go may your darling go too.
Would you leave her behind, unprotected,
When she loves no other but you?I have promised you, darling, that never
Would a word from my lips cause you pain,
And my life it will be yours forever,
If you will only love me again.Must the paths with its joys all be blighted,
By the future of sorrow and pain?
And the vows that were spoken be slighted?
Don't you think you could love me again?When you go to your home by the ocean,
May you never forget those sweet hours,
That we spent in the Red River Valley,
And the love we exchanged 'midst the flowers.Oh, there never should be such a longing,
In the heart of a pure maiden's breast,
That dwells in the heart you are breaking,
As I wait in my home in the west.And the dark maiden's prayer for her lover,
Is the spirit that moves o'er the world,
May his pathway be ever in sunshine,
Is the prayer of the Red River girl.This is far from the "cowboy" version that Ed thinks, I think, that 
everybody now sings.John

Continuing to look through hillbilly and cowboy song books, I notice 
that Old Time Mountain Songs, Mountain Ballads, and Hill-Billy Tunes 
as sung by Jack Foy, "The Hill-Billy Boy," 1931? (Foy's version of 
WRECK OF OLD 97 is copyrighted 1931), contains both RED RIVER VALLEY 
and CAN I SLEEP IN YOUR BARN, with *different* tunes (though both are 
recognizable as RED RIVER VALLEY).RED RIVER VALLEY here is a short but very interesting version. 
First, the tune has some of the jerkiness of Dr. Peacock's 1874 tune, 
due to some dotted-eighth/sixteenth combinations.  Second, and even 
more interesting, the text seems to be a hybrid.Nothing unusual occurs before verse 3.  Here are verses 3-5.As you go to your home by the ocean
May you never forget those sweet hours
That we spent in the Red River Valley,
And the love we exchanged mid the flowers.Oh there never could be such a longing
In the heart of a pure maiden's breast,
That dwells in the heart you are breaking
As I wait in my home in the West.Come and sit by my side if you love me,
Do not hasten to bid me adieu,
But remember the Red River Valley
And the boy that has loved you so true.Verses 3-4 are standard in the "Canadian" version, but, strangely, 
verses 4-5 indicate different speakers.  In 4, the girl is the 
speaker - she waits in her "home in the West" - the implication is 
that the boy is leaving, as in "Canadian" versions.  In 5 the boy is 
the speaker, and he bids the girl, "Do not hasten to bid me adieu" - 
the girl is leaving, as in the "cowboy" version.In a sense this is what some anthropologists spend their lives 
looking for, a "missing link."  Or is it just an example of simple 
confusion or plain stupidity?John