Folks:This morning's NY Times has a truly brilliant article by Allan Kozinn (Page B1) on the Bard Music festival this year devoted to the music of Aaron Copland.Program seven,  at  10 a.m. on August 20, features Peggy and Mike Seeger, with commentary by American musicologist, dealing with "Aaron Copland and the Folk Revival."Considering the close connections between the Seegers, Charles and Ruth; Marc Blitzstein;  Leonard Bernstein;  Herbert Haufrecht and Norman Cazden, not to mention Peoples Songs and the Popular Front, this should be an important event.For directions, etc., see Bard.edu/fishercenterEd

John -  my apologies; and thanks for replying.  I did hit my send button a
bit to soon.  So here is the context -  I have been following this
"Ballad-l" thread with much fascination.   And my own internal searches lead
me to several items which I have so far seen no mention of.   So I was
thinking of posting to the listserv or to you - but as you can see I hit the
send button to soon.My home database search led me to Allen's Slave Songs of the US which as I
understand it came out in 1867.  It has a title called We Will March Thru
the Valley (#95)
It's  1st verse is:
    We will march thro' the valley in peace  (2 times)
    If Jesus himself be our leader,
    We will march thro' the valley in peaceThis is from the Dover reprint.  and it has a melody  which some might hear
as perhaps a very very slight resemblence to the Red River Valley.   The
rest of the verses do not resemble the other verses that people were
listing.    Of course, musical resemblence is always for sure in the ear of
beholder, and so I think as an aging folk musician, I may tend to hear more
resemblence than others.I have very much enjoyed your research and commentary since I joined the
listserv a couple of years and must also confess that I am fascinated by by
your email domain which I interpret as Chemistry dept of U. Georgia, since
my first career was as a theoretical chemistAgain my thanks for all your commentary and great researchJane Keefer
Folk Music Index  (www.ibiblio.org/folkindex)----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: Bingo! Streets of the City> >>Words: Rev. Mr. Flamman
> >>Music: Dr. T. H. Peacock
> >>Copyright: 1874
> >>
> >>WE WILL WALK IN THE STREETS OF THE CITY
> >
> >The above is from copyright registration files and sheet music at
> >the Library of Congress.  According to Mary Louise VanDyke,
> >Dictionary of American Hymnology, Oberlin College Library, "When we
> >reach the golden city," the first line of Flamman's text, is indexed
> >for the book Goodly Pearls for the Sunday School
> >(Sweney and Hood, 1875) and for 8 other collections published
> >between 1876 and 1904, several of them also compiled by Sweney.  The
> >Dictionary also records "Soon we'll see the golden city," the text
> >that appears in Taylor, Revival Hymns and Plantation Melodies (1882)
> >and which is different from "When we reach the golden city," as
> >appearing in 4 Adventist hymnals, 1898-1952, but they have no record
> >of an occurrence before Taylor's publication.
> >
> >Anyhow, the appearance of WE WILL WALK IN THE STREETS OF THE CITY in
> >books immediately following its publication as sheet music supports
> >the notion that it got to be pretty widely known, supporting the
> >notion that "Red River Valley" took its tune from the chorus of
> >STREETS.
>
> I have now received from Mary Louise VanDyke a FAXed copy of p 51 of
> The Golden Sheaf, Enlarged Edition, Boston: Advent Christian
> Publication Society, 1902.  The song there is THE GOLDEN CITY, "Words
> arr. by Geo. J. French," "Geo. J. French, Arr." (of the music).  The
> stanzas are altered versions of the first four (of six) given by
> Marshall W. Taylor in 1882.  The words of the chorus are also altered
> from earlier publications:
>
> We will walk thro' the streets of the city,
> With the friends we have lov'd by our side,
> We shall sit by the banks of the river,
> In that land we shall ever abide.
>
> In "arranging" the tune, Geo. J. French removed the "ragginess" of
> the earlier Peacock version, presumably Peacock's composition,
> replacing a number of dotted-eighth-followed-by-sixteenth
> combinations with simple eighths-followed-by-eighths.  He also
> changed the incipit of the chorus from SOL-do-mi (as in "Red River
> Valley" and WE WILL WALK IN THE STREETS OF THE CITY) to do-re-mi, as
> New Orleans jazz bands play it.  It appears that French's arrangement
> is the source of the NO jazz tradition while Peacock's is the source
> of the "Red River Valley" tune.  At least, that's a reasonable
> speculation.
>
> This speculation further supported by the fact that French uses a
> version of the same tune for stanzas and chorus, whereas Peacock sets
> stanzas to a different tune.  My recollection is that NO jazz bands
> use only the music of the chorus.
>
>
> John

>John -  my apologies; and thanks for replying.  I did hit my send button a
>bit to soon.  So here is the context -  I have been following this
>"Ballad-l" thread with much fascination.   And my own internal searches lead
>me to several items which I have so far seen no mention of.   So I was
>thinking of posting to the listserv or to you - but as you can see I hit the
>send button to soon.
>
>My home database search led me to Allen's Slave Songs of the US which as I
>understand it came out in 1867.  It has a title called We Will March Thru
>the Valley (#95)
>It's  1st verse is:
>     We will march thro' the valley in peace  (2 times)
>     If Jesus himself be our leader,
>     We will march thro' the valley in peace
>
>This is from the Dover reprint.  and it has a melody  which some might hear
>as perhaps a very very slight resemblence to the Red River Valley.   The
>rest of the verses do not resemble the other verses that people were
>listing.    Of course, musical resemblence is always for sure in the ear of
>beholder, and so I think as an aging folk musician, I may tend to hear more
>resemblence than others...Thanks, Jane.To my "ears," the resemblance of that tune to Red River Valley is 
pretty slight.  The cadences follow a different implied harmony, for 
one thing, and there is no place in the Slave Songs tune where the 
fourth degree of the scale receives any emphasis, as at the end of 
the third phrase of Red River Valley.  The two tunes share, however, 
rising incipits, and their terminal phrases might be construed as 
bearing some resemblance (the terminal phrase of Red River Valley 
seems to vary more than the others).The words are a different matter.  "We will march through the valley 
in peace" could easily have inspired "We will walk in the streets of 
the city."  The Streets line sometimes occurs as "We shall march 
through the streets of the city."  Some such things may be 
commonplaces, it seems to me.Here is ABC for THE GOLDEN CITY.
(Translate to musical notation at
http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html )X:5
T:THE GOLDEN CITY
S:The Golden Sheaf (enlarged edition, Boston, Advent Christian Pub. Soc., 1902)
N:This arrangement may date to 1898 (The Golden Sheaf).
C:Geo. J. French, Arr.  ("Words arr. by Geo. J. French)
Z:John Garst 29Jul2005
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:100
K:G
%:Verse
G/ A/ | B B B A/B/ | A/ G2-G/ G/ B/ | d3/2 e/ d (B/ G/) | A3
B/ c/ | d (B/ A/) G (A/ B/) | c/ c2-c/ B/ A/ | G3/2 B/ B A | G3
%:Chorus
G/ A/ | B B/ B/ B A/ B/ | A/ G2-G/ G/ B/ | d d/ e/ d c/ B/ | A3
B/ c/ | d B/ A/ G A/ B/ | c/ c2-c/ B/ A/ | G G/ A/ B A/ A/ | G3 |]Compare this with WE WILL WALK IN THE STREETS OF THE CITY (1874) that 
I gave in a previous message.  Notice especially the incipit of the 
chorus, do-re-mi in GOLDEN CITY and Sol-do-mi, as in RED RIVER 
VALLEY, in STREETS.  As I noted before, my recollection is that NO 
jazz bands play do-re-mi, supporting the notion that their source is 
GOLDEN CITY, while that of RED RIVER VALLEY is STREETS.J

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jane Keefer" <[unmask]><<I have very much enjoyed your research and commentary since I joined the
listserv a couple of years and must also confess that I am fascinated by by
your email domain which I interpret as Chemistry dept of U. Georgia, since
my first career was as a theoretical chemist.>It would seem that chemists (Jane, John, and of course Norm Cohen) are
filling the same role in the current world of folk-song research that
parsons on bicycles did a century or so ago.Peace,
Paul

on 7/29/05 1:45 PM, Paul Stamler at [unmask] wrote:> t would seem that chemists (Jane, John, and of course Norm Cohen) are
> filling the same role in the current world of folk-song research that
> parsons on bicycles did a century or so ago.
> 
> Peace,
> PaulYou forgot Charles Brown, the pop-blues pianist.A. Cohen

Hey, Jane! You gonna 'fess up about your PhD in
Physics, too?
     Sandy--- Larkin <[unmask]> wrote:> on 7/29/05 1:45 PM, Paul Stamler at
> [unmask] wrote:
> 
> > t would seem that chemists (Jane, John, and of
> course Norm Cohen) are
> > filling the same role in the current world of
> folk-song research that
> > parsons on bicycles did a century or so ago.
> > 
> > Peace,
> > Paul
> 
> You forgot Charles Brown, the pop-blues pianist.
> 
> A. Cohen
> 

Hi!	Here I am again! :-) Another week - another list. The songs &
ballads will probably be posted on Aug. 1. 	JOURNALS	4564335630 - Tennessee Folklore Society Bulletin, June 1974, $5 
(ends Jul-30-05 17:52:13 PDT)
	4564335642 - same, Sept. 1974 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:16 PDT)
	4564335663 - same, March 1973 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:23 PDT)
	4564335673 - same, June 1973 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:27 PDT)
	4564335680 - same, March 1970 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:30 PDT)
	4564335691 - same, Sept. 1970 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:34 PDT)
	4564335709 - same, Dec. 1970 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:41 PDT)
	4564335723 - same, June 1971 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:44 PDT)
	4564335730 - same, Dec. 1971 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:47 PDT)
	4564335741 - same, March 1972 $4 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:51 PDT)
	4564335756 - same, June 1972 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:55 PDT)
	4564335764 - same, Sept. 1972 $5 (ends Jul-30-05 17:52:59 PDT)
	4564335937 - same, March 1974 (ends Jul-30-05 17:53:59 PDT)	6549328001 - NORTHEAST FOLKLORE Journal, 1958-1972, $15 (ends 
Aug-03-05 11:26:33 PDT)	6549335143 - Hoosier Folklore Bulletin, 1942-45, $20 (ends 
Aug-03-05 11:57:03 PDT)	BOOKS 	8321270411 - Irish Fireside Folktales by Kennedy, 1969, $2 (ends 
Jul-30-05 11:35:14 PDT)	6548477894 - Kansas Folklore by Sackett & Koch, 1961, $6.99 
(ends Jul-30-05 19:42:08 PDT)	8321487827 - The Folklore of Sussex by Simpson, 1973, 3.50 GBP 
(ends Jul-31-05 10:27:20 PDT)	6549089230 - FOLKLORE FROM THE SCHOHARIE HILLS by Gardner, 1937, 
$25 (ends Aug-02-05 11:00:21 PDT)	4564911344 - American Folk Masters by Siporin, 1992, $12.98 (ends 
Aug-02-05 11:51:30 PDT)	6549114436 - FOLKLORE FOR CHILDREN AND YOUNG PEOPLE. A CRITICAL 
AND DESCRIPTIVE BIBLIOGRAPHY by Ramsey, 1952, $10 (ends Aug-02-05 
12:41:13 PDT)	6549180952 - I BOUGHT ME A DOG AND OTHER FOLKTALES FROM THE 
SOUTHERN MOUNTAINS by Roberts, 1971 reprint, $5.99 (ends Aug-02-05 17:46:47 
PDT)	5222910522 - THE FOLKLORE OF EAST ANGLIA by Porter, 1974, 0.99 GBP 
(ends Aug-03-05 03:30:09 PDT)	6549320863 - 6 booklets on Ozark folklore by Randolph, 1943-44, 
$13 (ends Aug-03-05 10:57:44 PDT)	6549325530 - 11 PAMPHLETS ON WISCONSIN FOLKLORE by Brown, 1942-45, 
$10 (ends Aug-03-05 11:15:15 PDT)	6549329188 - Tall Tales by Blakley, 1936, $5 (ends Aug-03-05 
11:32:19 PDT)	7989769365 - GREASY GRIMY GOPHER GUTS by Sherman, 1995, $3.75 
(ends Aug-03-05 12:14:01 PDT)	6549411206 - A Stove-Up Cowboy's Story by McCauley, 1965 reprint, 
$9.99 (ends Aug-03-05 17:16:18 PDT)	4565168989 - Aunt Puss & Others - Old Days in the Piney Woods by 
Emery, 1969, $9.99 (ends Aug-03-05 19:47:13 PDT)	6549641755 - FOLKLORE OF LUNENBURG COUNTY, NOVA SCOTIA by 
Creighton, 1950, $10 (ends Aug-04-05 11:12:36 PDT)	8322829165 - Tales of the West of Ireland by Berry, 1988, $10 
(ends Aug-05-05 09:00:52 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Folks:The doughty Ms. Nichols has turned up a scarce item, Emelyn Gardner's _Folklore from the Scholarie Hills [NY].  This volume is from the library of the mid-century folklorist Ernest Baughman.The beautifully printed volume (U of Michigan Press, 1937) contains tales, beliefs, songs, ballads, etc., etc.Less known than other regional collections, it is still one of the more comprehensive surveys of  the folklore in a specific community.Ed

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

My apologies to all for my recent broadcast, which I meant to be just to
John - so since it's all out there now, I will simply add that I agree with
John's comments pretty much -  in this particular song it seems to me that
the words are the most important component;And thanks to all for the knowledge and dedicated work that has produced it.Jane Keefer

While looking for something else this evening, I found something 
unexpected at the University of California: an online archive 
containing, so far as I can see, images of the entire Pepys collection 
of broadsides. Although I'm sure that many list members will know about 
it already, I don't recall it being mentioned; so I thought it might not 
be a bad idea to draw attention to it. The digital images have been made 
from negative microfilm provided by the Pepys Library; digitally 
enhanced, we are promised that they will be more easily legible than the 
reproductions published by Magdalene College in the 1980s. They are 
available in various sizes, in some cases with transcriptions into 
modern type.The indexing system is based on Helen Weinstein's, and there are a 
series of search options which I haven't fully explored yet. No contents 
listing as such, I think, so useful to have access also to existing 
print indexes such as Weinstein's. Various supporting materials are also 
included, with more planned as the project procedes.The archive can be seen at the website of the Early Modern Center, 
Department of English, University of California, Santa Barbara:http://emc.english.ucsb.edu/ballad_project/index.aspMalcolm Douglas

Malcolm:I went looking for the site you sent, but found only a notice that the site could not be found.  I will try various variations on the theme tomorrow night.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Douglas <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:45 pm
Subject: Pepys Ballads: online> While looking for something else this evening, I found something 
> unexpected at the University of California: an online archive 
> containing, so far as I can see, images of the entire Pepys 
> collection 
> of broadsides. Although I'm sure that many list members will know 
> about 
> it already, I don't recall it being mentioned; so I thought it 
> might not 
> be a bad idea to draw attention to it. The digital images have been 
> made 
> from negative microfilm provided by the Pepys Library; digitally 
> enhanced, we are promised that they will be more easily legible 
> than the 
> reproductions published by Magdalene College in the 1980s. They are 
> available in various sizes, in some cases with transcriptions into 
> modern type.
> 
> The indexing system is based on Helen Weinstein's, and there are a 
> series of search options which I haven't fully explored yet. No 
> contents 
> listing as such, I think, so useful to have access also to existing 
> print indexes such as Weinstein's. Various supporting materials are 
> also 
> included, with more planned as the project procedes.
> 
> The archive can be seen at the website of the Early Modern Center, 
> Department of English, University of California, Santa Barbara:
> 
> http://emc.english.ucsb.edu/ballad_project/index.asp
> 
> Malcolm Douglas
> 

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Malcolm:My apologies.  The address did connect on a later, second try.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Douglas <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:45 pm
Subject: Pepys Ballads: online> While looking for something else this evening, I found something 
> unexpected at the University of California: an online archive 
> containing, so far as I can see, images of the entire Pepys 
> collection 
> of broadsides. Although I'm sure that many list members will know 
> about 
> it already, I don't recall it being mentioned; so I thought it 
> might not 
> be a bad idea to draw attention to it. The digital images have been 
> made 
> from negative microfilm provided by the Pepys Library; digitally 
> enhanced, we are promised that they will be more easily legible 
> than the 
> reproductions published by Magdalene College in the 1980s. They are 
> available in various sizes, in some cases with transcriptions into 
> modern type.
> 
> The indexing system is based on Helen Weinstein's, and there are a 
> series of search options which I haven't fully explored yet. No 
> contents 
> listing as such, I think, so useful to have access also to existing 
> print indexes such as Weinstein's. Various supporting materials are 
> also 
> included, with more planned as the project procedes.
> 
> The archive can be seen at the website of the Early Modern Center, 
> Department of English, University of California, Santa Barbara:
> 
> http://emc.english.ucsb.edu/ballad_project/index.asp
> 
> Malcolm Douglas
> 

Folks:With a little urging, Andy Rouse <[unmask]> has furnished this description of his newly published book.I wonder if others on this list are interested in purchasing a copy.  Dick  of Camsco, are your services available?Andy's message follows:Ed
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Dear Ed,Oh, dear, I'd much rather someone else blew my trumpet. But since you ask:The Remunerated Vernacular Singer: from Medieval England to the Post-War
Revival. Peter Lang, 2005.
European University Studies, Series XIV, Anglo-Saxon Language and
Literature, Vol. 415.
Contents:
Introduction
Chapter One
An Embarkation
Chapter Two
?I saw her through a whummil bore? -soap operas of the Middle Ages?
Chapter Three
 From Minstrel to Ballad Singer: Social Change and the Vernacular Singer
in the 16th Century
Chapter Four
William Hogarth and the street Singer of the 18th Century
Chapter Five
Maritime and Military Matters
Chapter Six
The Factory Lass, the Serving Maid and the Farm Labourer
Chapter Seven
The Remains of the Revival: Postwar English Vernacular Singers and their
Politics
Conclusion
Bibliography, Discography
Appendix I
Appendix IIThe bumpf on the back goes like this:
"This volume studies trhe status and reception of the professional,
semi-professional and amateur singer in England from the earliest time
for which records are available, the later Midle Ages, up to the
present. Iy also offers a principled examination of their songs and why
particular songs were taken into singers' repertoires while others
remained printed street ballads without ever becoming part of the oral
tradition. The structure is broadly chronological, although the nature
of evidence from oral and ephemeral sources makes this impossible to
adhere to strictly."
The above has been condensed from the evaluation of one of the readers
at the work's Ph.D. stage.The book is not chronologically or sociologically exhaustive, and the
different chapters use different means of analysis. For instance, both
text analysis and criminal records are used for the medieval period,
while for the 18th century I lean heavily upon Hogarth's engravings and
in the final chapter exploit a questionnaire filled in by such singers
as Heather Wood, Chris Foster, John Faulkner, Frankie Armstrong, John
Copper....
Although not specifically addressed, examples from Hungary, where I have
been living for a quarter of a century, are interspersed, but I also
refer to other cultures (I was lucky to enter corerespondence with a
Gambian who send me a charming letter describing the present functions
of the griot). I might never have embarked on the research, were it not
for the fact that until fairly recently (when Hungary became a
multi-party republic at the end of the 'eighties) I had assumed (insofar
as I had given it much thought at all) that other countries 'used' their
folk music in the vague "leftish" way that most of us did back home. I
should have been warned by that scene in "Cabaret," but didn't
associate. Here folk music is used in very different ways, the worst
form of which is very below-the-belt nationalistic, exploiting a rich
culture for party political ends.My main focus, then, was aimed at the singer who got something for his
song. Hence the title. But the content spreads a wider net.Hope that will do you, Ed. And thanks for showing interest.Andy

I have tried to contact Peter Lang re. this book, with no success--It's 
not on their website. I'll call then and ask about it.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO Musicand a chemist for many, many years. (When asked what kind, my (now) 
ex-wife responded, "Physical. Of course.)edward cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>With a little urging, Andy Rouse <[unmask]> has furnished this description of his newly published book.
>
>I wonder if others on this list are interested in purchasing a copy.  Dick  of Camsco, are your services available?
>
>Andy's message follows:
>
>Ed
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Dear Ed,
>
>Oh, dear, I'd much rather someone else blew my trumpet. But since you ask:
>
>The Remunerated Vernacular Singer: from Medieval England to the Post-War
>Revival. Peter Lang, 2005.
>European University Studies, Series XIV, Anglo-Saxon Language and
>Literature, Vol. 415.
>Contents:
>Introduction
>Chapter One
>An Embarkation
>Chapter Two
>?I saw her through a whummil bore? -soap operas of the Middle Ages?
>Chapter Three
> From Minstrel to Ballad Singer: Social Change and the Vernacular Singer
>in the 16th Century
>Chapter Four
>William Hogarth and the street Singer of the 18th Century
>Chapter Five
>Maritime and Military Matters
>Chapter Six
>The Factory Lass, the Serving Maid and the Farm Labourer
>Chapter Seven
>The Remains of the Revival: Postwar English Vernacular Singers and their
>Politics
>Conclusion
>Bibliography, Discography
>Appendix I
>Appendix II
>
>The bumpf on the back goes like this:
>"This volume studies trhe status and reception of the professional,
>semi-professional and amateur singer in England from the earliest time
>for which records are available, the later Midle Ages, up to the
>present. Iy also offers a principled examination of their songs and why
>particular songs were taken into singers' repertoires while others
>remained printed street ballads without ever becoming part of the oral
>tradition. The structure is broadly chronological, although the nature
>of evidence from oral and ephemeral sources makes this impossible to
>adhere to strictly."
>The above has been condensed from the evaluation of one of the readers
>at the work's Ph.D. stage.
>
>The book is not chronologically or sociologically exhaustive, and the
>different chapters use different means of analysis. For instance, both
>text analysis and criminal records are used for the medieval period,
>while for the 18th century I lean heavily upon Hogarth's engravings and
>in the final chapter exploit a questionnaire filled in by such singers
>as Heather Wood, Chris Foster, John Faulkner, Frankie Armstrong, John
>Copper....
>Although not specifically addressed, examples from Hungary, where I have
>been living for a quarter of a century, are interspersed, but I also
>refer to other cultures (I was lucky to enter corerespondence with a
>Gambian who send me a charming letter describing the present functions
>of the griot). I might never have embarked on the research, were it not
>for the fact that until fairly recently (when Hungary became a
>multi-party republic at the end of the 'eighties) I had assumed (insofar
>as I had given it much thought at all) that other countries 'used' their
>folk music in the vague "leftish" way that most of us did back home. I
>should have been warned by that scene in "Cabaret," but didn't
>associate. Here folk music is used in very different ways, the worst
>form of which is very below-the-belt nationalistic, exploiting a rich
>culture for party political ends.
>
>My main focus, then, was aimed at the singer who got something for his
>song. Hence the title. But the content spreads a wider net.
>
>Hope that will do you, Ed. And thanks for showing interest.
>
>Andy
>
>
>  
>

Hi-
Just managed to get the information from the publisher. It lists for 
$43.95 (US), ?25.50. If I can get a half-dozen or so orders, I can offer 
it at a 10% discount (the wholesale price than usual because it's 
imported from Switzerland.)
If you want a copy, E-mail me.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO Musicedward cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>With a little urging, Andy Rouse <[unmask]> has furnished this description of his newly published book.
>
>I wonder if others on this list are interested in purchasing a copy.  Dick  of Camsco, are your services available?
>
>Andy's message follows:
>
>Ed
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Dear Ed,
>
>Oh, dear, I'd much rather someone else blew my trumpet. But since you ask:
>
>The Remunerated Vernacular Singer: from Medieval England to the Post-War
>Revival. Peter Lang, 2005.
>European University Studies, Series XIV, Anglo-Saxon Language and
>Literature, Vol. 415.
>Contents:
>Introduction
>Chapter One
>An Embarkation
>Chapter Two
>?I saw her through a whummil bore? -soap operas of the Middle Ages?
>Chapter Three
> From Minstrel to Ballad Singer: Social Change and the Vernacular Singer
>in the 16th Century
>Chapter Four
>William Hogarth and the street Singer of the 18th Century
>Chapter Five
>Maritime and Military Matters
>Chapter Six
>The Factory Lass, the Serving Maid and the Farm Labourer
>Chapter Seven
>The Remains of the Revival: Postwar English Vernacular Singers and their
>Politics
>Conclusion
>Bibliography, Discography
>Appendix I
>Appendix II
>
>The bumpf on the back goes like this:
>"This volume studies trhe status and reception of the professional,
>semi-professional and amateur singer in England from the earliest time
>for which records are available, the later Midle Ages, up to the
>present. Iy also offers a principled examination of their songs and why
>particular songs were taken into singers' repertoires while others
>remained printed street ballads without ever becoming part of the oral
>tradition. The structure is broadly chronological, although the nature
>of evidence from oral and ephemeral sources makes this impossible to
>adhere to strictly."
>The above has been condensed from the evaluation of one of the readers
>at the work's Ph.D. stage.
>
>The book is not chronologically or sociologically exhaustive, and the
>different chapters use different means of analysis. For instance, both
>text analysis and criminal records are used for the medieval period,
>while for the 18th century I lean heavily upon Hogarth's engravings and
>in the final chapter exploit a questionnaire filled in by such singers
>as Heather Wood, Chris Foster, John Faulkner, Frankie Armstrong, John
>Copper....
>Although not specifically addressed, examples from Hungary, where I have
>been living for a quarter of a century, are interspersed, but I also
>refer to other cultures (I was lucky to enter corerespondence with a
>Gambian who send me a charming letter describing the present functions
>of the griot). I might never have embarked on the research, were it not
>for the fact that until fairly recently (when Hungary became a
>multi-party republic at the end of the 'eighties) I had assumed (insofar
>as I had given it much thought at all) that other countries 'used' their
>folk music in the vague "leftish" way that most of us did back home. I
>should have been warned by that scene in "Cabaret," but didn't
>associate. Here folk music is used in very different ways, the worst
>form of which is very below-the-belt nationalistic, exploiting a rich
>culture for party political ends.
>
>My main focus, then, was aimed at the singer who got something for his
>song. Hence the title. But the content spreads a wider net.
>
>Hope that will do you, Ed. And thanks for showing interest.
>
>Andy
>
>
>  
>

I've made little progress in tracking this ballad to historical 
events, but here is a remote possibility.*****
Birmingham, AL, December 25, 1891 (paraphrased news account):William Reese and Sadie Brown were to have been married on this date. 
As a Christmas present, she gave him a revolver on December 24.  On 
Christmas morning, when he came for the wedding, she backed out.  He 
shot and killed her with her present to him. He escaped.
*****This is, of course, not "Lee Brown," but it *is* Sadie Brown, and she 
is indeed killed by a man who, while not her husband, was her 
husband-to-be, who escapes.  One may presume that he is later hunted 
down.The crime doesn't fit the facts as "Bad Lee Brown"/"Little Sadie" 
usually tells them, but even so I think it possible that this could 
be the genesis of that ballad.John

The Atlanta Constitution of 02Sep1913 tells of one Bill Hendricks, a 
granite cutter, who had sung "John Henry" "since his childhood days. 
Unfortunately, no age is given for Bill.  Perhaps the census could 
help.Bob, are you reading this?Both he and his sister insisted that the song had only one verse, and 
that if you wanted to make it longer, you sang that verse over and 
over.When John Henry was er little bit o' boy
He sat on his father's knee,
An' he picked up a bit o' steel and says,
"Dad, make er steel drivin' man out o' me."If this ballad was born ca 1887, as I suspect, then it would have 
been no more than 26 years old in 1913.  If Bill sang it as a child, 
then he must have been no more than 15, say, in 1887.  If he were 15 
in 1887, he would have been 41 in 1913.  If, in fact, he were older 
than 41 in 1913, then there would be inconsistencies in this scenario.
-- 
john garst    [unmask]

Hi!	As we start another month, here is another list. :-)	Note the item with the asterisk at beginning of the listing. I
am the seller. For list members, I will consider not enforcing my
restriction of sales to US & Canada only. If you are interested and
outside those countries, please contact me before bidding. Thanks!	SONGSTERS & BROADSIDES	7703484810 - General Tom Thumb (sketch inc. songster), 1874, $26 
(ends Aug-02-05 18:44:02 PDT)	6550327265 - PUT'S ORIGINAL CALIFORNIA SONGSTER, 1868, $125 (ends 
Aug-07-05 13:02:42 PDT)	MISCELLANEOUS	4752004479 - Pedlar's Pack JOHN DOHERTY OF DONEGAL, LP, 1964, 
24.95 GBP (ends Aug-06-05 00:48:58 PDT)	4565840423 - Farmhouse Fiddlers: Music & Dance Traditions in the 
Rural Midwest by Martin, 1994, $5.50 (ends Aug-07-05 08:01:41 PDT)*	4565967122 - Dance Music of Scotland by Surenne, 185?, $5 (ends 
Aug-07-05 19:05:22 PDT)	SONGS & BALLADS	4564950025 - The Ballad Tree by Wells, 1950, $5 (ends Aug-02-05 
14:57:41 PDT)	7703474038 - Negro Songs from Alabama by Courlander, 1962, $19.99
(ends Aug-02-05 17:37:51 PDT)	4564985628 - Songs and Ballads from Nova Scotia by Creighton, 1966
Dover edition, $9.99 (ends Aug-02-05 18:41:15 PDT)	6549332690 - FOLK-SONGS MAINLY FROM WEST VIRGINIA by Cox, 1939, 
$25 (ends Aug-03-05 11:46:57 PDT)	6549645867 - SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN by Doerflinger, 
1972, $7.50 (ends Aug-04-05 11:23:12 PDT)	6549172601 - Adventures of Robin Hood: A Collection of Poems, Songs, 
and Ballads by Ritson, 1884 edition, $9.50 (ends Aug-05-05 16:59:27 PDT)	7535014302 - Folk Songs of Australia by Meredith & Anderson, 1968, 
$15 AU (ends Aug-05-05 23:54:16 PDT)	7339576969 - Room for Company by Palmer, 1971, 4.25 GBP (ends 
Aug-06-05 01:50:07 PDT)	6970560574 - A Bundle of Ballads & Lays of the Scottish Cavaliers 
by Morley & Aytoun, 2 volumes, 1891, 9.99 GBP (ends Aug-07-05 10:35:00 PDT)	6550260298 - Irish Street Ballads by Lochlainn, 1960, $3.99 (ends 
Aug-07-05 18:30:00 PDT)	6550436602 - 8 volumes by Ritson, 1825-33, $25 (ends Aug-07-05 
21:10:28 PDT)	7340650150 - Wit and Mirth or Pills to Purge Melancholy, 1720, 
$49.99 (ends Aug-07-05 21:17:24 PDT)	6971125310 - The Painful Plough by Palmer, 1972, 4.50 GBP (ends 
Aug-08-05 04:48:42 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Ran through the 1910 and 1920 GA census as well as the GA draft 
registrations. The closest I came was a Willie Young Hendricks on Bartow 
Co. who's occupation is given as "miner" in 1917. The other Will, 
Willie, William, Bill, Billie's etc. were all farmers [save one 
electrician and one roofer]. Willie Y. was born 2 Dec 1889. Not a 
completely foolproof process as the online census indexes only cover the 
head of household [in 1910 and 1920]. On the other hand if you hope for 
an individual under 41 in 1913 the the draft registration is reasonably 
comprehensive as it would only include males born after 1872.John Garst wrote:> The Atlanta Constitution of 02Sep1913 tells of one Bill Hendricks, a 
> granite cutter, who had sung "John Henry" "since his childhood days. 
> Unfortunately, no age is given for Bill.  Perhaps the census could help.
>
> Bob, are you reading this?
>
> Both he and his sister insisted that the song had only one verse, and 
> that if you wanted to make it longer, you sang that verse over and over.
>
> When John Henry was er little bit o' boy
> He sat on his father's knee,
> An' he picked up a bit o' steel and says,
> "Dad, make er steel drivin' man out o' me."
>
> If this ballad was born ca 1887, as I suspect, then it would have been 
> no more than 26 years old in 1913.  If Bill sang it as a child, then 
> he must have been no more than 15, say, in 1887.  If he were 15 in 
> 1887, he would have been 41 in 1913.  If, in fact, he were older than 
> 41 in 1913, then there would be inconsistencies in this scenario.

Gentlemen:One other easy shot: the Social Security Death Index on the web.  If  Willie were born in 1872, he would have been  63 or 64 when social security went into effect.  If he drew benefits, he presumably would be listed.Finally, there are state archives where death certificates are filed.  I do not know how  careful Georgia authorities were in the 1930s to record the deaths of  blacks, but it is worth a try.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford J OCHELTREE <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, August 1, 2005 3:04 pm
Subject: Re: Early reference to "John Henry"> Ran through the 1910 and 1920 GA census as well as the GA draft 
> registrations. The closest I came was a Willie Young Hendricks on 
> Bartow 
> Co. who's occupation is given as "miner" in 1917. The other Will, 
> Willie, William, Bill, Billie's etc. were all farmers [save one 
> electrician and one roofer]. Willie Y. was born 2 Dec 1889. Not a 
> completely foolproof process as the online census indexes only 
> cover the 
> head of household [in 1910 and 1920]. On the other hand if you hope 
> for 
> an individual under 41 in 1913 the the draft registration is 
> reasonably 
> comprehensive as it would only include males born after 1872.
> 
> John Garst wrote:
> 
> > The Atlanta Constitution of 02Sep1913 tells of one Bill 
> Hendricks, a 
> > granite cutter, who had sung "John Henry" "since his childhood 
> days. 
> > Unfortunately, no age is given for Bill.  Perhaps the census 
> could help.
> >
> > Bob, are you reading this?
> >
> > Both he and his sister insisted that the song had only one verse, 
> and 
> > that if you wanted to make it longer, you sang that verse over 
> and over.
> >
> > When John Henry was er little bit o' boy
> > He sat on his father's knee,
> > An' he picked up a bit o' steel and says,
> > "Dad, make er steel drivin' man out o' me."
> >
> > If this ballad was born ca 1887, as I suspect, then it would have 
> been 
> > no more than 26 years old in 1913.  If Bill sang it as a child, 
> then 
> > he must have been no more than 15, say, in 1887.  If he were 15 
> in 
> > 1887, he would have been 41 in 1913.  If, in fact, he were older 
> than 
> > 41 in 1913, then there would be inconsistencies in this scenario.
> 

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry for the new subject line, somehow I lost the thread.Think I found your boy in the 1900 census. The only Bill Hendricks 
listed is in Webbsboro, Elbert Co. Born March 1873 with the occupation 
given as stonecutter. Oh yeah, he's white.Am off to dinner but will follow up later this evening.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Ok, think I have this.I find Bill HENDRICKS [b. March 1873 in GA] a 27y stone cutter in 
Webbsboro, Elbert Co GA [11 June 1900]. He and his wife Laura [22y b. 
Oct. 1877 in GA] have been married less than a year.I find William M HENDRIX a 38y stone cutter for a granite company in 
Atlanta, Fulton Co GA [18 April 1910]. He and his wife Laura E [30y] 
have been married for 10y. They were the parents of 4 children, the only 
survivor being Robert E. [9y b. GA].I can't find your boy in the 1917/1918 draft registration or in the 1920 
and 1930 census. I may have found Laura though the id is more 
speculation than confirmed. She is a widow [49y] in the household of her 
son Edward [29y]. The household includes Edward's sister Katherine [9y 
b. GA].

>Gentlemen:
>
>One other easy shot: the Social Security Death Index on the web.  If 
>Willie were born in 1872, he would have been  63 or 64 when social 
>security went into effect.  If he drew benefits, he presumably would 
>be listed.
>
>Finally, there are state archives where death certificates are 
>filed.  I do not know how  careful Georgia authorities were in the 
>1930s to record the deaths of  blacks, but it is worth a try.Ed,You may not be implying that Bill was black, but if you are, I have 
no evidence to that effect.John>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Clifford J OCHELTREE <[unmask]>
>Date: Monday, August 1, 2005 3:04 pm
>Subject: Re: Early reference to "John Henry"
>
>>  Ran through the 1910 and 1920 GA census as well as the GA draft
>>  registrations. The closest I came was a Willie Young Hendricks on
>>  Bartow
>>  Co. who's occupation is given as "miner" in 1917. The other Will,
>>  Willie, William, Bill, Billie's etc. were all farmers [save one
>>  electrician and one roofer]. Willie Y. was born 2 Dec 1889. Not a
>>  completely foolproof process as the online census indexes only
>>  cover the
>>  head of household [in 1910 and 1920]. On the other hand if you hope
>>  for
>>  an individual under 41 in 1913 the the draft registration is
>>  reasonably
>>  comprehensive as it would only include males born after 1872.
>>
>>  John Garst wrote:
>>
>>  > The Atlanta Constitution of 02Sep1913 tells of one Bill
>>  Hendricks, a
>>  > granite cutter, who had sung "John Henry" "since his childhood
>>  days.
>>  > Unfortunately, no age is given for Bill.  Perhaps the census
>>  could help.
>>  >
>>  > Bob, are you reading this?
>>  >
>>  > Both he and his sister insisted that the song had only one verse,
>>  and
>>  > that if you wanted to make it longer, you sang that verse over
>>  and over.
>>  >
>>  > When John Henry was er little bit o' boy
>>  > He sat on his father's knee,
>>  > An' he picked up a bit o' steel and says,
>>  > "Dad, make er steel drivin' man out o' me."
>>  >
>>  > If this ballad was born ca 1887, as I suspect, then it would have
>>  been
>>  > no more than 26 years old in 1913.  If Bill sang it as a child,
>>  then
>>  > he must have been no more than 15, say, in 1887.  If he were 15
>>  in
>>  > 1887, he would have been 41 in 1913.  If, in fact, he were older
>>  than
>>  > 41 in 1913, then there would be inconsistencies in this scenario.
>>-- 
john garst    [unmask]

John:My presumption.  My misapprehension.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, August 2, 2005 8:05 am
Subject: Re: Early reference to "John Henry"> >Gentlemen:
> >
> >One other easy shot: the Social Security Death Index on the web.  
> If 
> >Willie were born in 1872, he would have been  63 or 64 when social 
> >security went into effect.  If he drew benefits, he presumably 
> would 
> >be listed.
> >
> >Finally, there are state archives where death certificates are 
> >filed.  I do not know how  careful Georgia authorities were in the 
> >1930s to record the deaths of  blacks, but it is worth a try.
> 
> Ed,
> 
> You may not be implying that Bill was black, but if you are, I have 
> no evidence to that effect.
> 
> John
> 
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Clifford J OCHELTREE <[unmask]>
> >Date: Monday, August 1, 2005 3:04 pm
> >Subject: Re: Early reference to "John Henry"
> >
> >>  Ran through the 1910 and 1920 GA census as well as the GA draft
> >>  registrations. The closest I came was a Willie Young Hendricks on
> >>  Bartow
> >>  Co. who's occupation is given as "miner" in 1917. The other Will,
> >>  Willie, William, Bill, Billie's etc. were all farmers [save one
> >>  electrician and one roofer]. Willie Y. was born 2 Dec 1889. Not a
> >>  completely foolproof process as the online census indexes only
> >>  cover the
> >>  head of household [in 1910 and 1920]. On the other hand if you 
> hope>>  for
> >>  an individual under 41 in 1913 the the draft registration is
> >>  reasonably
> >>  comprehensive as it would only include males born after 1872.
> >>
> >>  John Garst wrote:
> >>
> >>  > The Atlanta Constitution of 02Sep1913 tells of one Bill
> >>  Hendricks, a
> >>  > granite cutter, who had sung "John Henry" "since his childhood
> >>  days.
> >>  > Unfortunately, no age is given for Bill.  Perhaps the census
> >>  could help.
> >>  >
> >>  > Bob, are you reading this?
> >>  >
> >>  > Both he and his sister insisted that the song had only one 
> verse,>>  and
> >>  > that if you wanted to make it longer, you sang that verse over
> >>  and over.
> >>  >
> >>  > When John Henry was er little bit o' boy
> >>  > He sat on his father's knee,
> >>  > An' he picked up a bit o' steel and says,
> >>  > "Dad, make er steel drivin' man out o' me."
> >>  >
> >>  > If this ballad was born ca 1887, as I suspect, then it would 
> have>>  been
> >>  > no more than 26 years old in 1913.  If Bill sang it as a child,
> >>  then
> >>  > he must have been no more than 15, say, in 1887.  If he were 15
> >>  in
> >>  > 1887, he would have been 41 in 1913.  If, in fact, he were older
> >>  than
> >>  > 41 in 1913, then there would be inconsistencies in this 
> scenario.>>
> 
> -- 
> john garst    [unmask]
> 

>Ok, think I have this.
>
>I find Bill HENDRICKS [b. March 1873 in GA] a 27y stone cutter in
>Webbsboro, Elbert Co GA [11 June 1900]. He and his wife Laura [22y b.
>Oct. 1877 in GA] have been married less than a year.
>
>I find William M HENDRIX a 38y stone cutter for a granite company in
>Atlanta, Fulton Co GA [18 April 1910]. He and his wife Laura E [30y]
>have been married for 10y. They were the parents of 4 children, the only
>survivor being Robert E. [9y b. GA].
>
>I can't find your boy in the 1917/1918 draft registration or in the 1920
>and 1930 census. I may have found Laura though the id is more
>speculation than confirmed. She is a widow [49y] in the household of her
>son Edward [29y]. The household includes Edward's sister Katherine [9y
>b. GA].Wonderful, Cliff.Let me give you more information from the news article.In 1913, Bill Hendricks, granite cutter, lived at 588 Simpson Street, 
Atlanta.  He was "arraigned in police court...on complaint of Mrs. 
John Meggs, a neighbor."Mrs. Meggs complained that "on both Saturday and Sunday nights he 
neighbor had come home more or less intoxicated and had shouted and 
sung bad songs."  Bill replied that he had sung only one song, "John 
Henry," and that "no one had ever before taken offense at it."  To 
prove his point that it was not a "bad song," he was allowed to 
recite it in court.  He knew only one verse, and his also sister 
swore that that was all she had heard.Despite this, he was found guilty of disorderly conduct and was fined 
$15.75 in one case and $5.75 in the other.  "The defendant put the 
court on notice that it was a piece of malice on the part of the 
neighbors and not their objection to 'John Henry' that caused his 
arrest."If Bill was born in 1873, that makes him 40 in 1913.  If "John Henry" 
started life in 1887, then Bill was 14 then, and I think he could 
call that "childhood."  He just makes it under the wire for his 
statements and an 1887 genesis of "John Henry" to be consistent.John-- 
john garst    [unmask]

Thanks for the additional info. I'm looking in two directions, I'd like 
to find him in 1920 so as to hopefully confirm my 1930 assumption. Also 
trying to work my way through possible parents in the 1880 census. 

Well that worked out nicely. In the 1910 census the household 
immediately following that of William M HENDRIX is that of John W MEIGS 
and his wife Martha [the music hater I presume]. I found John and Martha 
in 1920 but "singing" Bill and his family seem to have moved on.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

If anyone's been trying to reach me (CAMSCO Music) at 800/548-FOLK 
(3655), I apologize. I've moved, and Verizon crossed some wires on the 
new installation. It's all fixed, now.Sorry for any inconvenience.dick

Hi!	Welcome to a special issue of the Ebay List. I am posted this
because of auction end dates and other issues. Part 2, the regular
general folklore list will be posted this evening. 	BROADSIDES	6550160760 - When Johnny Comes Marching Home, 186?, $15.50 (ends 
Aug-04-05 19:01:07 PDT)	7340731179 - Ladies Skreen, 1728?, $49.95 (ends Aug-08-05
09:16:05 PDT)	7340742088 - A New Ballad, 17??, $49.95 (ends Aug-08-05 10:09:59
PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi!	As promised, here is part 2. :-) 	JOURNALS	6550353896 - The Golden Log, Texas Folklore Society, 1962, $8.99 
(ends Aug-07-05 14:56:16 PDT)	BOOKS 	6550131223 - Buying the Wind Regional Folklore in the United States 
by Dorson, 1964, $5.99 (ends Aug-04-05 15:29:34 PDT)	8323140374 - 13 books on folklore and mythology, $7.25 (ends 
Aug-04-05 19:30:38 PDT)	8323141621 - 12 books on folklore and mythology, $8.99 (ends 
Aug-04-05 19:37:38 PDT)	8322930332 - The Best of Texas Folk and Folklore 1916 - 1954 by 
Boatright, Hudson & Maxwell, 1998, $9.95 (ends Aug-05-05 18:33:50 PDT)	6549771563 - Folklore of the Australian Pub by Wannan, 1972, 
$9.99 (ends Aug-05-05 19:00:00 PDT)	6550002015 - THE AUSTRALIAN YARN by Edwards, 1977, $0.99 AU (ends 
Aug-05-05 23:26:54 PDT)	4565722386 - Folklore of the Scottish Highlands by Ross, 1993, $5 
(ends Aug-06-05 10:26:08 PDT)	4565731113 - The British Folklorists by Dorson, 1968, $3.50 (ends 
Aug-06-05 11:24:29 PDT)	4566173808 - Never Try to Teach a Pig to Sing by Dundes, 1991, $4 
(ends Aug-08-05 18:03:17 PDT)	6971242736 - Putting Folklore to Use by Jones, 1994, $5 (ends 
Aug-08-05 22:05:06 PDT)	6971286482 - The Horn Book by Legman, 1970, 4.50 GBP (ends 
Aug-09-05 07:24:56 PDT)	4566338543 - NEW MEXICO PLACE NAMES: A GEOGRAPHICAL DICTIONARY by
Pearce, 1965, $9.99 (ends Aug-09-05 18:05:00 PDT)	6550900275 - The Folklore of Maine by Beck, 1957, $9.99 (ends 
Aug-09-05 18:38:07 PDT)	6550915206 - Folk Beliefs of the Southern Negro by Puckett, 1926,
$49.99 (ends Aug-09-05 19:46:20 PDT)	8323292309 - Yorkshire Customs ? traditions and folklore of old 
Yorkshire by Crowther, 1977 reprint, 0.99 GBP (ends Aug-10-05 10:45:44 PDT)	8323548871 - A Collection of Highland Rites and Customs by 
Campbell, 2.99 GBP (ends Aug-11-05 10:32:37 PDT)	8324073278 - Vale of the Vikings by Simpson, 1991, 1.98 GBP (ends 
Aug-13-05 10:22:22 PD)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:04:03 -0500, John Mehlberg wrote:>Here is the jokebook with songs that I won on ebay (9MB):
>
>
>       http://immortalia.com/1840s-tom-browns-jest-book.zip
>
Good! Thank you, sir.  Any idea of its date?>Does anyone out there have a copy of Pills to Purge Melancholy?  Remember, there are quite a few items, editions & volumes with that title.
Basicly, Thomas D'Urfey,  "Wit and Mirth: or, or Pills to purge Melancholy"-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
	          I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
	                Boycott South Carolina!
	     http://www.naacp.org/news/2001/2001-01-12.html

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi,
Most of us probably have the 1959 New York reprint of the 1876 reprint of
the 1719-1720 edition, so an earlier edition(s) on-line would be preferable.
SteveG.
You could have borrowed my copy but shipping would be rather a lot from UK.

Ron:I was tipped to this story from the magazine of the right-leaning Manhattan Institute naming Pete Seeger as America's most successful Communist.Pete would be proud.http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_3_urbanities-communist.htmlEd

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]><<I was tipped to this story from the magazine of the right-leaning
Manhattan Institute naming Pete Seeger as America's most successful
Communist.Pete would be proud.http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_3_urbanities-communist.html >>But as someone who, as a young man, considered a career as a journalist, he
would be appalled at the factual errors with which the article is riddled.
Never mind the ideological bias; that's expected. But they got an awful lot
of the who-what-when-where wrong.Peace,
Paul

>...Thus "Daisy, Daisy" and "Red River Valley" are not folk songs, 
>any more than "The Star Spangled Banner" or Schubert's _Die Schone 
>Mullerin_ are folk songs.
>...
>EdFWIW, Art Rosenbaum just gave me a recently recorded CD of the Myers 
sisters.  They sing a find version of "Bright Brasstown Valley."J

>>...Thus "Daisy, Daisy" and "Red River Valley" are not folk songs, 
>>any more than "The Star Spangled Banner" or Schubert's _Die Schone 
>>Mullerin_ are folk songs.
>>...
>>Ed
>
>FWIW, Art Rosenbaum just gave me a recently recorded CD of the Myers 
>sisters.  They sing a find version of "Bright Brasstown Valley."Oops!  Make that "fine."J

John and  anyone else who cares:My point is that the common form of "Red River Valley" is  more or less frozen.  There is a "correct" way to sing it and one risks reproval or hostile stares if one deviates from the "official" text.  Thus it is no longer a folk song, though derived from
a folk song.I imagine the same might be said of the Simon and Garfunkel version of "Scarborough Fair," etc.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, August 4, 2005 10:20 am
Subject: Re: Bawdy Song Census> >...Thus "Daisy, Daisy" and "Red River Valley" are not folk songs, 
> >any more than "The Star Spangled Banner" or Schubert's _Die Schone 
> >Mullerin_ are folk songs.
> >...
> >Ed
> 
> FWIW, Art Rosenbaum just gave me a recently recorded CD of the 
> Myers 
> sisters.  They sing a find version of "Bright Brasstown Valley."
> 
> J
> 

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Well, the URL suggests "1840s" Very nice book, by the
way. Thanks for posting it.C.> http://immortalia.com/1840s-tom-browns-jest-book.zip
>     >
>     Good! Thank you, sir. Any idea of its date?
> 

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Tom Brown's Jest Book:
or, Companion to the Cloister,
The Ne Plus Ultra of Every Thing Funny.
Containing All His Comical and Humorous Stories,
Curious Riddles,
Also, without any curtailment, the whole of his unique collection of
Amorous Tales and Songs,
Smutty Conundrums,
Queer Jokes,
Witty Sayings, &c., &c., &c.,London:
Edward Duncombe,
Middle Row, Holborn
[c. 1840]
&108 p.: illustrations; 15 cm. (6 inches). Yellow paper over boards, printed 
in black. Front cover is identical to title page, each with vignette of a 
couple undressing.Edward Duncombe and John Duncombe were publishers in London of of music and 
theater-related pieces, as well as the occasional piece of light pornography 
from about 1825 to about 1853. The Middle Row, Holborn, address was used 
from about 1835 to about 1848.----- Original Message ----- 
From: Jonathan Lighter
To: [unmask]
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: Tom BrownFWIW, the Victorian bestseller, _Tom Brown's School Days_, by Thomas Hughes, 
was published in 1857.  This might argue for a date ca1859, unless there's 
evidence to the contrary.JLCliff Abrams <[unmask]> wrote:
Well, the URL suggests "1840s" Very nice book, by the
way. Thanks for posting it.C.> http://immortalia.com/1840s-tom-browns-jest-book.zip
> >
> Good! Thank you, sir. Any idea of its date?
>__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Bob:It is good to make your acquaintance, if only by email, and to learn that there is yet another person out there interested in bawdy folklore. I simply cannot extend your knowledge of the prehistory.As you can see, I am posting your query to a listserv peopled by some of the most knowledgeable (frightening, even shaming at times) folksong and ballad students  in Christendom.  One or more of them might be able to track the geneaology of  "On the Road to Limerick."On the history of the limerick itself, I will presume you have seen Gershon Legman's  chapter in _The Horn Book,_
pp. 427-53.  This was originally intended to be the introduction to Legman's anonymously self-published collection, _The Limerick_ (Paris: Les Hautes Etudes, 1953), but not sent to press for economic reasons.  Legman's introduction to his second collection, _The New Limerick,_ has nothing of the history.  For a later account of the variety of limerick songs in oral tradition, see my _The Erotic Muse,_ 2nd edition, pp. 223 ff.Good luck, and do keep us posted on your research --Ed 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Turvey <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, August 6, 2005 3:31 am
Subject: A song of the nineteenth century.> Dear Professor Cray,
> 
> John Mehlberg?s Immortalia website describes your encyclopedic 
> knowledge of 
> the bawdy songs of yesteryear. I wonder, therefore, if you could 
> possibly 
> help me? I am trying to find any information whatsoever about a 
> song said to 
> have been popular around the 1860s.
> 
> All I know about the song is that the chorus is variously stated to 
> be :-
> 
> ?Oh, won?t you come up, won?t you come up,
> All the way from Limerick town??	Oxford newspapers of June 1881
> 
> or:-
> 
> Will you come up, come up?
> Will you come up to Limerick?
> Will you come up, come up?
> Will you come up to Limerick?	J H Murray, Notes & Queries, 1898
> 
> or:-
> 
> Won?t you come up, come up,
> Won?t you come up to Limerick town?
>                	C L Graves, The Cornhill Magazine, 1918
> 
> 
> Two other references suggest that the song title might have been 
> ?All the 
> Way Up to Limerick?, or ?On the Road to Limerick.? It is said that 
> people 
> would sing this song at convivial gatherings, each person present 
> having to 
> sing a verse between the chorus on pain of a forfeit. The verses 
> sung were 
> five-liners, and these ?limericks? subsequently took their name 
> from the 
> chorus of the song to which they were sung.
> 
> I have been studying the history of limericks for many years and I 
> really 
> would like to know more about this song; for example when was it 
> first sung, 
> who composed it, what the words to it are, does it only exist as a 
> chorus, 
> what is the tune for the song, what is its title ..... etc..  My 
> ideal would 
> be to find a dated version with a few limericks given between the 
> chorus.
> However, all my efforts so far have drawn a complete and utter 
> blank. I have 
> tried Bristol University Music Department, Bristol Central Library 
> Music 
> Department, Cambridge University Library (Andersen Music Room), The 
> Royal 
> College of Music, the internet, various musical friends .... and so 
> on and 
> so forth. In the Bodleian library I have read many comic songbooks 
> from the 
> nineteenth century, but no song at all bears any resemblance to my 
> quarry.
> To put the matter succinctly; I know nothing about the song except 
> its 
> reputed chorus!
> 
> If you could suggest anywhere I could find some information about 
> this song 
> I would be extremely grateful.
> 
> Yours sincerely,
> 
> Dr Bob Turvey
> 11 Lyndale Avenue
> Stoke Bishop
> Bristol
> BS9 1BS
> England
> 
> 
> 

Jonathan and John:The 1840 date on the original just might be accurate."Tom Brown" seems to have been a popular term for  various things in the early 19th C.:   "Tommy Brown" was coarse brown bread  in the late 18th C., according to Francis Grose's _Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue._  Henley and Farmer have it as a gambling term  undated for "twelve in hand or crib."  (Partridge's slang dictionary credits the same source and dates it 1810-1860.)And then there is "The Card Playing Song," collected by Frank Kidson and published in his _Traditional Tunes,_ p. 159.  
Kidson dates it to as late as 1880, Lloyd to mid-century.  Ewan MacColl sings it on "Champions and Sporting Blades" (Riverside 12-652).  The first verse runs:Oh! the king will take the queen; but the queen will take the knave:  
And since we're all together, boys, we'll have a jolly stave.
      Here's to you, Tom Brown,
      Here's to you with all heart;
      We'll have another glass, my boys
      At least , before we part.
           Here's to you, Tom Brown.Etc.Lloyd's notes tantalize.  He states that in addition to Kidson's version "other less decorous versions have since come to light."Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, August 6, 2005 6:49 am
Subject: Re: Tom Brown> FWIW, the Victorian bestseller, _Tom Brown's School Days_, by 
> Thomas Hughes,  was published in 1857.  This might argue for a date 
> ca1859, unless there's evidence to the contrary.
> 
> JL
> 
> Cliff Abrams <[unmask]> wrote:
> Well, the URL suggests "1840s" Very nice book, by the
> way. Thanks for posting it.
> 
> C.
> 
> > http://immortalia.com/1840s-tom-browns-jest-book.zip
> > >
> > Good! Thank you, sir. Any idea of its date?
> > 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
> 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>> Won't you come up, come up,
> Won't you come up to Limerick town?
>                C L Graves, The Cornhill Magazine, 1918Harry Cox, of couse, sang the same as "Won't you come down to Yarmouth
town?".Peace,
Paul

Paul Stamler wrote:> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> 
>>Won't you come up, come up,
>>Won't you come up to Limerick town?
>>               C L Graves, The Cornhill Magazine, 1918
> 
> Harry Cox, of couse, sang the same as "Won't you come down to Yarmouth
> town?".Not Harry Cox, so far as I know. Peter Bellamy seems to be the only 
source; I believe he said he got it from a Norfolk man, Peter Bullen; 
but details are vague. Perhaps Heather Wood will be able to tell us more.There certainly is a similarity in the few words quoted, but I don't 
know that it's really enough to connect the two without a fair bit more 
information about both.Malcolm Douglas

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Malcolm Douglas" <[unmask]>>>Won't you come up, come up,
>>Won't you come up to Limerick town?
>>               C L Graves, The Cornhill Magazine, 1918
>
> Harry Cox, of couse, sang the same as "Won't you come down to Yarmouth
> town?".<<Not Harry Cox, so far as I know. Peter Bellamy seems to be the only
source; I believe he said he got it from a Norfolk man, Peter Bullen;
but details are vague. Perhaps Heather Wood will be able to tell us more.>>You're right, of course -- I could've sworn it was on the Rounder
compilation, but it's not. Sorry, brain glitch.Peace,
Paul

Hi,
In 30 or so versions I have copies of 'Jack the Jolly Tar' (Yarmouth Town)
no chorus comes anywhere near Peter's and the place is invariably London.
The choruses are 'fol de rols', 'doo me ammers'or 'with a ----and a---'.
Personally I wouldn't trust for scholarly purposes any text that comes
solely from a revival singer, without a reliable source. this is far from
being a criticism of Peter or any other revival singer. We are all at
liberty to alter the songs, we all do it, it's part of the tradition,
keeping it alive.
Steve

Hi Ed and all,
'Tom Brown (Card Song) goes back far beyond Kidson.
See 'Tom Brown's Delight' c1674-9, Bodleian website Wood e25(66).
SteveG

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Hi!	Here is some vacation reading for everyone. :-)	MISCELLANEOUS	4754745680 - 5 78 records of bothy ballads, 3.50 GBP (ends 
Aug-11-05 06:21:47 PDT)	4755047608 - Occupational Folksongs of the U.S. Air Force, CD, 
$0.99 (ends Aug-11-05 23:38:31 PDT)	6971474588 - JOURNAL OF THE SCHOOL OF SCOTTISH STUDIES, 1970, 3 
GBP (ends Aug-13-05 15:23:01 PDT)	6971475141 - JOURNAL OF THE SCHOOL OF SCOTTISH STUDIES, 1972, 
4.88 GBP (ends Aug-13-05 15:28:48 PDT)	SONGS & BALLADS	4566099198 - Songs the Whaleman Sang by Huntington, 1964, $20 
(ends Aug-08-05 12:13:50 PDT)	4566130985 - Some Ballad Folk by Burton, $2.99 (ends Aug-08-05 
14:42:37 PDT)	4566131023 - Collection Of Folklore:Folksongs by Burton & Manning,
1970, $2.99 (ends Aug-08-05 14:42:52 PDT)	4566131066 - Folksongs II by Burton & Manning, 1971, $2.99 (ends 
Aug-08-05 14:43:11 PDT)	8323706595 - Folk Song Today No. 2 by Wales, 1969, 0.99 GBP 
(ends Aug-09-05 01:37:09 PDT)	6971368057 - Scottish and Border,Battles and Ballads by Brander, 
1975, $4.99 (ends Aug-09-05 18:49:46 PDT)	6550907120 - SONG BALLADS AND OTHER SONGS of the PINE MOUNTAIN 
SETTLEMENT SCHOOL, 1923, $9 (ends Aug-09-05 19:08:56 PDT)	8323986673 - Scone Ceilidh Songbook Folk Songs Old & New, 1965, 
2.99 GBP (ends Aug-10-05 02:37:33 PDT)	8324026312 - The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs by Williams 
& Lloyd, 0.99 GBP (ends Aug-10-05 06:58:31 PDT)	6971765681 - Mormon Songs from the Rocky Mountains by Cheney, 
1968, $9.99 (ends Aug-10-05 22:12:22 PDT)	4566599646 - Singing Family of the Cumberlands by Ritchie, 1955, 
$3.95 (ends Aug-10-05 12:44:31 PDT)	6551102804 - Eighty English Folk Songs From Southern Appalachians 
by Sharp & Kapeles, 1968, $39.95 (ends Aug-10-05 16:52:08 PDT)	6971481637 - A Book of British Ballads by Brimley Johnson, 1952 
reprint, 1.99 GBP (ends Aug-10-05 17:01:30 PDT)	6551271950 - ANIMAL FOLKSONGS FOR CHILDREN by Seeger, 1950, 
$6.25 (ends Aug-11-05 12:21:13 PDT)	6551768024 - Ballads and Songs from Ohio by Eddy, 1939, $9.77 
(ends Aug-11-05 19:59:43 PDT)	4566959953 - Songs of the Gael Series Three by Breathnach, 1922, 
$25 (ends Aug-12-05 09:15:54 PDT)	4566965182 - The History of the Blues by Davis, 2003 reprint, $5 
(ends Aug-12-05 09:47:33 PDT)	7705332621 - The First Book of Irish Ballads by O'Keefe, 1979, 3
GBP (ends Aug-12-05 10:10:41 PDT)	7341647513 - book of handwritten music/songs, 1828, $9.99 (ends 
Aug-12-05 16:03:39 PDT)	6550900306 - Robin Hood Poems, Songs, and Ballads by Ritson 2 
volumes, 1887 reprint, $399.99 (ends Aug-12-05 18:38:15 PDT)	7341692693 - The Songs That Made Australia by Fahey, 1989, $16 AU 
(ends Aug-12-05 22:59:03 PDT)	6551659373 - 2 books by Lomax (The Folk Songs of North America in 
the English Language, 1960 and Best Loved American Folk Songs, 1947), $9.99
(ends Aug-13-05 09:39:44 PDT)	7341354919 - A Selection of collected FOLK-SONG by Sharp & 
Williams, volume 1, 4.95 GBP (ends Aug-14-05 08:26:37 PDT)	7341357385 - A Selection of Some Less Known FOLK-SONGS by Sharp &
Williams, 3.95 GBP (ends Aug-14-05 08:41:19 PDT)	8324523239 - Cerddi Portinllaen by Davies, 1954, 4.99 GBP (ends 
Aug-15-05 07:13:04 PDT)	5227395227 - The Restoration of Cock Robin: Nursery Rhymes and 
Carols restored to their Original Meanings by Iles, 1989, 1.99 GBP (ends 
Aug-15-05 07:25:23 PDT)	5227392446 - Folk Lore and Songs of the Black Country and the 
West Midlands by Raven, 1966, 4.99 GBP (ends Aug-15-05 07:13:59 PDT)	5227440158 - Ord's Bothy Songs and Ballads of Aberdeen, Banff and 
Moray, Angus and the Mearns, 1990 reprint, 7.50 GBP (ends Aug-15-05 
13:40:00 PDT)	5227442005 - A Scottish Ballad Book by Buchan, 1973, 7.50 GBP 
(ends Aug-15-05 15:48:00 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

I need this CD and will be bidding.> 4755047608 - Occupational Folksongs of the U.S. Air Force, 
> CD,
> $0.99 (ends Aug-11-05 23:38:31 PDT)

I just got a new edition of Huntington from Dick Greenhaus for less, and substantially less than the "Buy-it-now" price.> 	4566099198 - Songs the Whaleman Sang by Huntington, 1964, $20 
> (ends Aug-08-05 12:13:50 PDT)BTW, a plethora of thanks  to Dolores for her kind posting of these auctions; I have recently been able to add a half dozen new tomes to my music library at far less than it would have cost elsewhere, including the finds on bookfinder.com  --  Tom> 	Tom Hall  --  Master Wordworker  
and Intellectual Handyman

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I often think I'm stirring old ashes when I comment on something here, but
in case it is news, here goes.I've always thought that the refrain shared by the Barnyards of Delgaty and
Rhynie ["I sheared my first hairst"] was more distinctive than most of the
bothy ballads, and tune rich. Ford titles the Rhynie song as Linten Lowrin,
and calls it an old Aberdeenshire song "which has seen little of the
printed page until gathered into Songs of the North", [Macleod and
Boulton]. In Scots Gems [Scots] - Drysdale, 1908 London. compiled by James Wood, I
found the following.Linton Lowrie
Words by James Ballantine
Music by Alexander MacKenzie 
[Sir Alexander Campbell Mackenzie perhaps? Or another?]
The volume distinguishes between 'music by' and 'music arranged by',
suggesting that MacKenzie composed the tune.
The air is close to the usual tune, though richer melodically, and familiar
to me in this version as close to one used for the Silkie of Sule Skerrie.
. Sorry I do not have a handy way of sharing it, I'd need to plug away for
more time than I've to hand. Anyway, this message is about the Barnyards
refrain.I tint my he'rt ae morn in May 
When birdies sang on ilka tree;
When dewdraps hung on ilka spray,
And lammies play'd on ilka lea.  O Linton Lowrie, Linton Lowrie
Aye sae fond ye trowed tae be,
I never wist sae bricht a monr
Sae dark a nicht wad bring to me.O Linton's words sae saftly fell,
Sae pure the glamour o' his e'e;
I hae never been mysel'
Sin' ere he spak' an' keek'd to me.O Linton Lowrie, Linton Lowrie,
Come dear Lowrie back to me,
An' siccan love I'se bear to you
E'en your forgettin' will forgi'e.His absence I'll nae langer bear,
My grief I can nae langer dree,
I'll gang a thousan' mile, and mair,
My Linton's comely face to seeO Linton Lowrie, Linton Lowrie,
Gin ye'll come to Loganlea,
I'll mak' ye lord o' Logan Ha',
And I your loving wife will be.As well as the Linton Lowrie phrase, the beginning lines of stanzas 3 and 5
echo bothy ballad verses.Whaddya think? Which came first?EwanEwan McVicar

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Hi again,
I'm getting something of a reputation as a sceptic and this won't help but
for me 'Yarmouth Town has Bert Lloyd written all over it, and I really go
for Jonathan's take on the name 'Peter Bullen'. Shades of the Kipper Family
and in true Norfolk tradition, or as they say 'Norfolk n'good'.
SteveG

Hi again,
Just trawling Yarmouth Town on the net and Peter recorded it on the 1968
album 'Mainly Norfolk' but he also included it on a 1971 Argo album 'Won't
you go my way'.Heather, have you got it? and if so do the notes throw any
further light on the matter?
The various threads on Mudcat don't help at all. They seem to have come to
a dead end.
SteveG

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The composer was the father:Mackenzie, Alexander (Born Montrose, 1819)A child prodigy who became a member of the Theatre Royal Orchestra in
Edinburgh in 1833, and arranged and published the Dance Music of Scotland
for piano and other Scots tunes for the violin. Composed the melodies of
"The Nameless Lassie" and "Bonnie Bonaly" by James Ballantine. He was the
father of the composer Dr. A. C. Mackenzie.I think you've got it, Ewan. Ballantine's dates are 1808-1877, which gives
enough time for it to generate a family.Murray Shoolbraid