Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a copy he
was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy, but
his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it didn't
sell. I wonder what my earlier printing, the 2-volume
version, is worth today. Ye gads!
     Sandy (in Connecticut)--- "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]> wrote:> At 09:48 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> >Folks:
> >Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint
> of Cecil Sharp and Maud 
> >Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians
> (eBay 
> >no.  6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for
> this rarely offered 
> >book in any edition or condition (this is ex
> libris).  I hope "Manowar," 
> >the current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l
> subscriber.
> >Ed
> 
> This edition does come up on Ebay every 3 months or
> so it seems to me, and 
> it's common for bidding to hover at a $20 level
> early in the 
> auction.  These books usually sell for about $100,
> and this auction has 
> almost 5 days left.  I think you can safely assume
> the price of this one 
> will wind up being at least $75.  Anything less than
> $75 for a decent copy 
> is a bargain these days.  I always watch them with
> interest.  I paid $100 
> for my copy 6 years ago, and the going price seems
> to have remained around 
> that level.
> Lisa Johnson
> 
> 
> 
> from Lisa ( aka: Strumelia Harmonia )
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> Harmonia's Big B. / http://www.harmonias.com
> Fiddle,Banjo,Mando, & OldTime music T-shirts.
> and  "My Life...A Girls story of Musical Corruption"
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> 

I'm "man_at_sea", and yes, I'm a Ballad-L person. I'm Archivist/Librarian 
for the Vancouver Folk Song Society and its associated Ballad Study Group.Jon Bartlett----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: Sharp-Karpeles> Folks:
>
> Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint of Cecil Sharp and Maud 
> Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians (eBay no. 
> 6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for this rarely offered book in 
> any edition or condition (this is ex libris).  I hope "Manowar," the 
> current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l subscriber.
>
> Ed 

At 12:50 PM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm "man_at_sea", and yes, I'm a Ballad-L person. I'm Archivist/Librarian 
>for the Vancouver Folk Song Society and its associated Ballad Study Group.
>
>Jon BartlettAHA!, so YOU'RE "Man-at-Sea"!
(or should I say "Ahoy!"?   Or "Avast!", even?)
Lisa
(Ahrggh! ?) 

At 11:47 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a copy he
>was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
>earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy, but
>his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it didn't
>sell.Well you can be sure he didn't PAY $600 for it.  (and it's doubtful that 
anyone else will).
Lisa
(Hey, I've got a copy of Sharp's "Eighty English Folk Songs" that I'm 
willing to let go for a mere $300!.....and.... any takers for Jean Thomas' 
"Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky" -a real steal at $475!)
;)

There are several copies of the Sharp/Karpeles edition listed on second-hand 
book databases, ranging from £200 to £450, so Ben's $600 is not too far off 
the mark - but Eighty English FS only fetches £10 - £25, so don't bank on 
making your fortune Lisa!.
I remember buying the Karpeles edition in about 1970 - it was still in 
print, listed as £5, but when it arrived in the shop it was actually £12 - a 
substantial sum for an unemployed layabout, and it took all my employed 
friends clubbing together to raise the difference for a joint birthday 
present for me to get it. I wish I had friends like that now.
Steve Roud----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles> At 11:47 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>>Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a copy he
>>was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
>>earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy, but
>>his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it didn't
>>sell.
>
> Well you can be sure he didn't PAY $600 for it.  (and it's doubtful that 
> anyone else will).
> Lisa
> (Hey, I've got a copy of Sharp's "Eighty English Folk Songs" that I'm 
> willing to let go for a mere $300!.....and.... any takers for Jean Thomas' 
> "Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky" -a real steal at $475!)
> ;)
> 

Had Sandy made the purchase at that time and place, he could have had this tome for $480, as Ben was offering a 20% discount to festival goers.Antiquarian book sellers usually purchase books for 40% of what they are planning to charge, unlike antiques dealers who usully try for 50%.  But book dealers customarily allow a 20% break for those in the trade, whereas antiques dealers usually only do 10%.I have known Ben for over thirty years.    He is both fair and honest in his dealings and is highly knowledgeable in the field of books, especially those in the folksong genre.  Ben was also commissioned to appraise Ken Goldstein's personal library.And FWIW, "ex libris" books do not  bring premium prices unless the owner was a recognised authority on the subject.--  Tom> From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
> Date: 2005/05/22 Sun PM 04:02:39 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles
> 
> At 11:47 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> >Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a copy he
> >was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
> >earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy, but
> >his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it didn't
> >sell.
> 
> Well you can be sure he didn't PAY $600 for it.  (and it's doubtful that 
> anyone else will).
> Lisa
> (Hey, I've got a copy of Sharp's "Eighty English Folk Songs" that I'm 
> willing to let go for a mere $300!.....and.... any takers for Jean Thomas' 
> "Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky" -a real steal at $475!)
> ;)
> Tom Hall  --  Master Wordworker  
and Intellectual Handyman

I wasn't knocking Ben! I know he's a good guy, an
honest dealer, and plays a pretty darned good backup
guitar to the Indian Neck banjo & fiddle jammers. I've
always bought items from him at Indian Neck, and hope
to get by his shop one day. 
     I was just stunned by the apparent increase in
the value of a book I've had for many years (in the
earlier edition). Even with Ben's 20% off, that's a
hellova price to have to pay for a collection every
one of us ought to have readily available. I suppose
many of you are near decent University libraries; I am
not. I can get things through inter-library loan, but
Sharp is a book one needs to go to frequently, like
Laws, Randolph, Brewster, etc., and those libraries do
want to get their books back after a couple of weeks.
     Wouldn't it make sense for Oxford to reprint it? 
     Sandy--- Tom Hall <[unmask]> wrote:> Had Sandy made the purchase at that time and place,
> he could have had this tome for $480, as Ben was
> offering a 20% discount to festival goers.
> 
> Antiquarian book sellers usually purchase books for
> 40% of what they are planning to charge, unlike
> antiques dealers who usully try for 50%.  But book
> dealers customarily allow a 20% break for those in
> the trade, whereas antiques dealers usually only do
> 10%.
> 
> I have known Ben for over thirty years.    He is
> both fair and honest in his dealings and is highly
> knowledgeable in the field of books, especially
> those in the folksong genre.  Ben was also
> commissioned to appraise Ken Goldstein's personal
> library.
> 
> And FWIW, "ex libris" books do not  bring premium
> prices unless the owner was a recognised authority
> on the subject.
> 
> --  Tom
> 
> 
> > From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
> > Date: 2005/05/22 Sun PM 04:02:39 CDT
> > To: [unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles
> > 
> > At 11:47 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a
> copy he
> > >was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
> > >earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy,
> but
> > >his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it
> didn't
> > >sell.
> > 
> > Well you can be sure he didn't PAY $600 for it. 
> (and it's doubtful that 
> > anyone else will).
> > Lisa
> > (Hey, I've got a copy of Sharp's "Eighty English
> Folk Songs" that I'm 
> > willing to let go for a mere $300!.....and.... any
> takers for Jean Thomas' 
> > "Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky" -a
> real steal at $475!)
> > ;)
> > 
> 
> Tom Hall  --  Master Wordworker  
> and Intellectual Handyman
> 

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Jon:I am sorry to have sic'ed the dogs upon you.Good luck on your bidding.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Bartlett <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:50 pm
Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles> I'm "man_at_sea", and yes, I'm a Ballad-L person. I'm 
> Archivist/Librarian 
> for the Vancouver Folk Song Society and its associated Ballad Study 
> Group.
> Jon Bartlett
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:48 AM
> Subject: Sharp-Karpeles
> 
> 
> > Folks:
> >
> > Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint of Cecil Sharp 
> and Maud 
> > Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians (eBay no. 
> > 6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for this rarely 
> offered book in 
> > any edition or condition (this is ex libris).  I hope "Manowar," 
> the 
> > current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l subscriber.
> >
> > Ed 
> 

Cheers, Ed - but my cover is now blown!Jon----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles> Jon:
> 
> I am sorry to have sic'ed the dogs upon you.
> 
> Good luck on your bidding.
> 
> Ed
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jon Bartlett <[unmask]>
> Date: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:50 pm
> Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles
> 
>> I'm "man_at_sea", and yes, I'm a Ballad-L person. I'm 
>> Archivist/Librarian 
>> for the Vancouver Folk Song Society and its associated Ballad Study 
>> Group.
>> Jon Bartlett
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
>> To: <[unmask]>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:48 AM
>> Subject: Sharp-Karpeles
>> 
>> 
>> > Folks:
>> >
>> > Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint of Cecil Sharp 
>> and Maud 
>> > Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians (eBay no. 
>> > 6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for this rarely 
>> offered book in 
>> > any edition or condition (this is ex libris).  I hope "Manowar," 
>> the 
>> > current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l subscriber.
>> >
>> > Ed 
>>

Once again yet--
If several folks are interested in purchasing this (or any other) book, 
let me know. As a dealer, I can often get a substantial discount, and 
I'm willing to pass a good part of this along to them as wants it.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO Music
[unmask]Thomas Stern wrote:> I just noticed the following publication
> Lucy Anne Hurston & the Estate of Zora Neale Hurston:
>    Speak, So You Can Speak Again-The Life of Zora Neale Hurston
>    (2004, Doubleday)
> It contains a CD of Hurston interviewed in 1943, and a selection of 
> songs sung by her in 1939.  There are also
> numerous reproductions of various artifacts (postcards, letters, 
> manuscripts, magazine articles, published stories etc.)
>
> Best wishes, Thomas.
>
>
>
>  

I am considering indexing some 78's.  I have one by Richard Hayward which 
has no composer attribution.
Does anyone have any information about this (including the date Hayward may 
have recorded it)?Down in Glasloch [Glaslough]
Rex 15016B
Sung by Richard Hayward with Roy Robertson's orchestra.Oh, were I down in Glasloch where the birds sing so blithely
I would walk there with my true love and she by my side
And in all things she might ask me I would gladly do her favor
For there's no love like my true love in all Monaghan wide.Oh, were I down in Glasloch it's my heart would be singing
And the words in my mouth would be joyful and gay
For I'd know I'd be at home in the small fields of that country
And the charmer that is in it would be mine night and day.Sure if I were a fine clerk and could write a fair letter
I would write there to my true love and she'd understand
For if I were a wild bird I would fly to yon arbor
And I'd perch there on her shoulder and eat from her hand.But it's here in this strange land with the wild seas between us
I must wander in exile and think long and sigh
For though Mary she is faithful and will wait my returning
When I think on lovely Glasloch I am ready to die.I'd appreciate any help anyone can give.  Also, please let me know if I can 
quote you in a Ballad Index citation.
ThanksBen Schwartz 

Much of the text given here is composed of Northern Irish commonplaces.
Gale Huntington's version of Songs of the People contains a whole family of
related songs tied in with versions of the Cuckoo. It seems to resemble
most closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon Clody'(Bunclody),
particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was a bird stanza, but there
are other lines in common with oral versions as well.
I am at the moment working on a master titles index for folk songs
collected in England. This can be difficult enough at times classifying
those songs that for several centuries have become so varied in structure
and have crossed over with other songs; I'm glad my remit doesn't cover
Northern Irish songs and to a similar extent some American ones.
SteveG

One more 78 [last one for now, I promise]
As with "Down in Glasloch" I think this should be out for now unless someone 
can identify it.
Like Hayward, the McNulty's recorded traditional as well as non-traditional 
material.The Exile of Cork
The McNulty Family
Copley 9-228-B
(1953-1957)
No composer attributionI have wandered in exile midst cold-hearted strangers
Far from my home by the beautiful Lee
I have struggled in vain 'neath all sorrow and dangers
I have braved every fate e'er on land or on sea.Through Columbia's wild forest or India's straight towers[?]
To that great foreign river whose sands are all gold
Yet I long for her still though[?] the birds and the flowers
I have loved her and will 'til my heart it grows cold.I have come back again but she's not in her bower
Where the river flows fast with its calm briny wave
I have called her in vain round the ivy-clad towers
But sweet in the scatter[?] o'er-shadows her grave.But I'll rest with her soon with the shamrock above me
Never more from my own native hearth will I roam
'Til I'm laid 'neath the clay with the dear one that loved me
And in heaven she'll welcome her wanderer home.The only hits I find are on the first line: is this what Peta Webb recorded 
in 1973 as "I Have Wandered in Exile"?Ben Schwartz
 

On Monday, May 23, 2005 2:02 PM Steve Gardham wrote> .... It seems to resemble
> most closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon Clody'(Bunclody),
> particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was a bird stanza, but 
> there
> are other lines in common with oral versions as well.Thanks for that.  Looking at Sparling "The Streams of Bunclody" there almost 
all the verses there excluding "the cuckoo" are modified here.Ben Schwartz 

Bennett,I took the liberty of imposing on a list0buddy from pre-war-blues, Howard
Rye. He is by profession a discographer, and regards such things as a
challeng here is his response to me:>>> Down in Glasloch [Glaslough]
>>> Rex 15016B
>>> Sung by Richard Hayward with Roy Robertson's orchestra.
>> 
>> It's the recording, not the song itself, that is under question. The song
>> itself is well known to people on the list.
> 
> 
> Off hand, I have to admit I've no idea what a Rex 15000 is, though no doubt
> I can find out. They don't appear to be British. My identification bump is
> screaming "Australian", but is often wrong. English Rex's run from 8000
> issued in 1933 to 10230 in 1946 and then just a few more until the series
> was killed in 1948, and a 60000 series from the 40s which seems to have sold
> about 2 copies of each issue judging from how common they ain't. But there
> were Rex series throughout the former empire.
> 
> This would be a lot easier with full details of the disc, both sides, and
> above all matrix numbers. Can these be procured?
> 
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> [unmask]So there you have it: Howard, as best I can tell, is the best there is at
figuring out 78 conundrums. For the nonce, why don't you send through me,
and I will ask Howard if it's okay to communicate directly with him. You
never know how busy he is, answering queries like this all day, and he's
been known to be curmudgeonly, something I wouldn't wish on anybody I had
the slightest regard for...Andy Cohen

On Monday, May 23, 2005 3:17 PM Andy wrote, forwarding a note from Howard 
Rye
>>>> Sung by Richard Hayward with Roy Robertson's orchestra.
>>>
>>> It's the recording, not the song itself, that is under question. The 
>>> song
>>> itself is well known to people on the list.
>>
>>
>> Off hand, I have to admit I've no idea what a Rex 15000 is, though no 
>> doubt
>> I can find out. They don't appear to be British. My identification bump 
>> is
>> screaming "Australian", but is often wrong. English Rex's run from 8000
>> issued in 1933 to 10230 in 1946 and then just a few more until the series
>> was killed in 1948, and a 60000 series from the 40s which seems to have 
>> sold
>> about 2 copies of each issue judging from how common they ain't. But 
>> there
>> were Rex series throughout the former empire.
>>
>> This would be a lot easier with full details of the disc, both sides, and
>> above all matrix numbers. Can these be procured?
>>
Thanks for your help.
I bought this record in St John's, Newfoundland sometime between Oct 1955 
and April 1957.
The label says "Made in England" I am ignorant about this stuff--matrix numbers, etc., but this is what I 
seeSide A
Time 2.37
REX 15016
LITTLE BRIGIT FLYNN (French)
COUNTY MAYO FRAGMENT (Traditional)
RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy 
Robertson (DR.11812)
Scratched into the record itself  "N|PLT"(the | could be a sub-1),"U", a 
possibly reversed 1,  and "DR 11812-2"Side B
Time 3.02
DOWN IN GLASLOCH(arr. Hayward)
RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy 
Robertson (DR.11826)
Scratched into the record itself "NPLT", "OA",  "U", a reversed "2" 
overstamped on "1",  and "DR11826-1"The labels are red with REX in white and black acanthus leaf designs with 
the statement
"This copyright record made by patented process may not be sold below fixed 
price nor used for public performance or broadcasting."Thanks for your help.
Ben Schwartz 

Bennett,Those numbers that appear to be scratched into the record near its center
are actually molded in. They are a remnant of the original positive master
on which the music was first impressed by the player, and they correspond to
the numbers in the A & R guy's notebook.  Those are the matrix numbers.You will find serial numbers for the A and B sides on the respective sides
on the label. Serial numbers will be stable for the run, but can change, be
added to or replaced altogether as companies are acquired by one another, or
pieces are collated into long play or reissued in one form or another.
Another thing that may happen is that a company, say Victor, will engender a
cheap line, in this case Bluebird, and both companies will issue the same
numbers in parallel or in sequence.Andy Cohen

Bennett and all,Herewith is the exchange between me and Howard.  Now this guy is the best,
IMHO, at figuring out where a given record comes from- you can see it in his
response- and offers his services directly. I would be sparing, and try to
learn how he does what he does as much as possible, to avoid bothering him.
On the other hand, when you really don't know how to find the answer, he's
the go-to guy.For you non-blues types out there, Howard stepped in to the breach and
brought the fourth edition of +Blues and Gospel Records+ to publication, in
the process expanding its reach (1902-1942) in both directions (1890-1943).In the exchange that follows, the red is Bennett, the green is me and the
blue is Howard.Andy Cohen----------
> From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:49:13 +0100
> To: Andy <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Rest of the Story
> 
> on 23/5/05 22:01, Andy at [unmask] wrote:
> 
>> Bennett Schwarz, who I believe is a Brit, and is certainly a ballad scholar
>> (Ballad-L, remember), responds to your query about matrix #s thus:
>> 
>>> Thanks for your help.
>>> I bought this record in St John's, Newfoundland sometime between Oct 1955
>>> and April 1957.
>>> The label says "Made in England"
>>> 
>>> I am ignorant about this stuff--matrix numbers, etc., but this is what I
>>> see
>>> 
>>> Side A
>>> Time 2.37
>>> REX 15016
>>> LITTLE BRIGIT FLYNN (French)
>>> COUNTY MAYO FRAGMENT (Traditional)
>>> RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy
>>> Robertson (DR.11812)
>>> Scratched into the record itself  "N|PLT"(the | could be a sub-1),"U", a
>>> possibly reversed 1,  and "DR 11812-2"
>>> 
>>> Side B
>>> Time 3.02
>>> DOWN IN GLASLOCH(arr. Hayward)
>>> RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy
>>> Robertson (DR.11826)
>>> Scratched into the record itself "NPLT", "OA",  "U", a reversed "2"
>>> overstamped on "1",  and "DR11826-1"
>>> 
>>> The labels are red with REX in white and black acanthus leaf designs with
>>> the statement
>>> "This copyright record made by patented process may not be sold below fixed
>>> price nor used for public performance or broadcasting."
>>> 
>>> Thanks for your help.
>>> Ben Schwartz 
>> 
>> Now, I don't know if there is anything like DG&R for Ballads, but I suppose
>> there ought to be. Paul Stamler also belongs to Ballad-L, and is much more
>> competent than I to instruct those folks in the vagaries of the 78 world.
>> 
>> I don't want to be bothering you all the time with such queries, and I
>> know your specialty is not ballads. So, should I let these folks get in
>> touch with you directly, or is it better to go through me, and keep a layer
>> of distance between them and your esteemed self?
> 
> I'm quite content to deal with them directly or through you. Please
> yourself!
> 
> These are London-recorded masters (or at least masters in the London series)
> dating from the second half of 1947 (probably December). Looks like two
> sessions were involved. Though this matrix series was inherited from Rex
> because Decca transferred operations to their studio when they took over
> Crystalate in January 1937, the 'D' was suppressed on normal popular Rex
> issues (or rather was added to Decca issues), so its appearance here is a
> mite surprising, but then no one seems to have heard of the 15000 series
> before. My bump - and remember it was completely wrong about Australia - now
> asks whether this is a series pressed for Irish sale.
> 
> I dare say I can recover the exact recording date(s), but this will require
> either a visit to the National Sound Archive or a letter to Brian Rust. (If
> it comes to the latter I'll put them in touch!) I have added this to the
> pile for my next NSA visit. If we're lucky they may have Rex catalogues.
> 
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> [unmask]
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
> 
> 

Two points about Rex.1.] They did issue a "U" series of Irish music but the label should be 
green with the same design as the regular issues.2.] There was another Rex label in the UK, a budget line owned(?) and 
distributed by Woolworths.Andy wrote:>Bennett,
>
>Those numbers that appear to be scratched into the record near its center
>are actually molded in. They are a remnant of the original positive master
>on which the music was first impressed by the player, and they correspond to
>the numbers in the A & R guy's notebook.  Those are the matrix numbers.
>
>You will find serial numbers for the A and B sides on the respective sides
>on the label. Serial numbers will be stable for the run, but can change, be
>added to or replaced altogether as companies are acquired by one another, or
>pieces are collated into long play or reissued in one form or another.
>Another thing that may happen is that a company, say Victor, will engender a
>cheap line, in this case Bluebird, and both companies will issue the same
>numbers in parallel or in sequence.
>
>Andy Cohen
>
>  
>

Andy,
Thanks for the education.Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Bennett,
>
> Those numbers that appear to be scratched into the record near its center
> are actually molded in. They are a remnant of the original positive master
> on which the music was first impressed by the player, and they correspond 
> to
> the numbers in the A & R guy's notebook.  Those are the matrix numbers.
>
> You will find serial numbers for the A and B sides on the respective sides
> on the label. Serial numbers will be stable for the run, but can change, 
> be
> added to or replaced altogether as companies are acquired by one another, 
> or
> pieces are collated into long play or reissued in one form or another.
> Another thing that may happen is that a company, say Victor, will engender 
> a
> cheap line, in this case Bluebird, and both companies will issue the same
> numbers in parallel or in sequence.
>
> Andy Cohen
> 

Please pass on my thanks.  I appreciate the help--and the dating is a real 
help.
I  didn't expect this much work and would hope that only minimal, if any, 
additional work is forthcoming.
The 1947 date is a big help.  Thanks again.  I would like to be able to 
credit Howard in my notes to this entry.BenNot a Brit, but a Brooklyn US character now in the wilds (raccoon just 
walked past my window) of north west New Jersey.----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 6:10 PM
Subject: FW: The Rest of the Story> Bennett and all,
>
> Herewith is the exchange between me and Howard.  Now this guy is the best,
> IMHO, at figuring out where a given record comes from- you can see it in 
> his
> response- and offers his services directly. I would be sparing, and try to
> learn how he does what he does as much as possible, to avoid bothering 
> him.
> On the other hand, when you really don't know how to find the answer, he's
> the go-to guy.
>
> For you non-blues types out there, Howard stepped in to the breach and
> brought the fourth edition of +Blues and Gospel Records+ to publication, 
> in
> the process expanding its reach (1902-1942) in both directions 
> (1890-1943).
>
> In the exchange that follows, the red is Bennett, the green is me and the
> blue is Howard.
>
> Andy Cohen
>
>
> ----------
>> From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
>> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:49:13 +0100
>> To: Andy <[unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The Rest of the Story
>>
>> on 23/5/05 22:01, Andy at [unmask] wrote:
>>
>>> Bennett Schwarz, who I believe is a Brit, and is certainly a ballad 
>>> scholar
>>> (Ballad-L, remember), responds to your query about matrix #s thus:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for your help.
>>>> I bought this record in St John's, Newfoundland sometime between Oct 
>>>> 1955
>>>> and April 1957.
>>>> The label says "Made in England"
>>>>
>>>> I am ignorant about this stuff--matrix numbers, etc., but this is what 
>>>> I
>>>> see
>>>>
>>>> Side A
>>>> Time 2.37
>>>> REX 15016
>>>> LITTLE BRIGIT FLYNN (French)
>>>> COUNTY MAYO FRAGMENT (Traditional)
>>>> RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy
>>>> Robertson (DR.11812)
>>>> Scratched into the record itself  "N|PLT"(the | could be a sub-1),"U", 
>>>> a
>>>> possibly reversed 1,  and "DR 11812-2"
>>>>
>>>> Side B
>>>> Time 3.02
>>>> DOWN IN GLASLOCH(arr. Hayward)
>>>> RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy
>>>> Robertson (DR.11826)
>>>> Scratched into the record itself "NPLT", "OA",  "U", a reversed "2"
>>>> overstamped on "1",  and "DR11826-1"
>>>>
>>>> The labels are red with REX in white and black acanthus leaf designs 
>>>> with
>>>> the statement
>>>> "This copyright record made by patented process may not be sold below 
>>>> fixed
>>>> price nor used for public performance or broadcasting."
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your help.
>>>> Ben Schwartz
>>>
>>> Now, I don't know if there is anything like DG&R for Ballads, but I 
>>> suppose
>>> there ought to be. Paul Stamler also belongs to Ballad-L, and is much 
>>> more
>>> competent than I to instruct those folks in the vagaries of the 78 
>>> world.
>>>
>>> I don't want to be bothering you all the time with such queries, and I
>>> know your specialty is not ballads. So, should I let these folks get in
>>> touch with you directly, or is it better to go through me, and keep a 
>>> layer
>>> of distance between them and your esteemed self?
>>
>> I'm quite content to deal with them directly or through you. Please
>> yourself!
>>
>> These are London-recorded masters (or at least masters in the London 
>> series)
>> dating from the second half of 1947 (probably December). Looks like two
>> sessions were involved. Though this matrix series was inherited from Rex
>> because Decca transferred operations to their studio when they took over
>> Crystalate in January 1937, the 'D' was suppressed on normal popular Rex
>> issues (or rather was added to Decca issues), so its appearance here is a
>> mite surprising, but then no one seems to have heard of the 15000 series
>> before. My bump - and remember it was completely wrong about Australia - 
>> now
>> asks whether this is a series pressed for Irish sale.
>>
>> I dare say I can recover the exact recording date(s), but this will 
>> require
>> either a visit to the National Sound Archive or a letter to Brian Rust. 
>> (If
>> it comes to the latter I'll put them in touch!) I have added this to the
>> pile for my next NSA visit. If we're lucky they may have Rex catalogues.
>>
>> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
>> [unmask]
>> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>>
>>
> 

Sure thing, Ben. I'll tell Howard.Do remember, though, he offered...Andy

Thanks for the lead on Maid of Bun Clody.  Can I credit you for that in my 
note on this (which I guess I will index after all).
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Much of the text given here is composed of Northern Irish commonplaces.
> Gale Huntington's version of Songs of the People contains a whole family 
> of
> related songs tied in with versions of the Cuckoo. It seems to resemble
> most closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon Clody'(Bunclody),
> particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was a bird stanza, but 
> there
> are other lines in common with oral versions as well.
> I am at the moment working on a master titles index for folk songs
> collected in England. This can be difficult enough at times classifying
> those songs that for several centuries have become so varied in structure
> and have crossed over with other songs; I'm glad my remit doesn't cover
> Northern Irish songs and to a similar extent some American ones.
> SteveG
> 

Steve:Tell us more about your "master titles index for folk songs collected in England."  Does this correlate at all with the on-going work of Roud, Waltz et Cie, the Digital Tradition?Do you have a publisher?  Or would you be willing to post this on the Fresno State website David Engle manages?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 11:02 am
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Much of the text given here is composed of Northern Irish 
> commonplaces.Gale Huntington's version of Songs of the People 
> contains a whole family of
> related songs tied in with versions of the Cuckoo. It seems to 
> resemblemost closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon 
> Clody'(Bunclody),particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was 
> a bird stanza, but there
> are other lines in common with oral versions as well.
> I am at the moment working on a master titles index for folk songs
> collected in England. This can be difficult enough at times 
> classifyingthose songs that for several centuries have become so 
> varied in structure
> and have crossed over with other songs; I'm glad my remit doesn't 
> coverNorthern Irish songs and to a similar extent some American ones.
> SteveG
> 

On 2005/05/23 at 05:10:44PM -0500, Andy wrote:> Bennett and all,> In the exchange that follows, the red is Bennett, the green is me and the
> blue is Howard.	Just a minor point -- the colors are specific to your e-mail
program, which appears to be a Macintosh version of Microsoft's Outlook
Express.  (Are you experimenting to see how many security holes you can
introduce into the Mac, which is fairly secure by default?)	It *may* have added a copy in HTML, and there the colors would
be preserved -- except in e-mail programs which don't do HTML at all.  I
know that *I* opt to not use anything which can render HTML as an e-mail
client, because there are too many nasty things which can be done with
HTML.  My e-mail client knows just enough about HTML to discard it. :-)	O.K.  A quick check back in the raw e-mail shows that you did
not add HTML (thank goodness), so the colors will certainly not work the
same on other's systems.  They may not even work on Windows versions of
Outlook Express.	However, if the attribution lines e.g.	In such-and-such, So-and-so said:Is left intact, people should be identifiable by counting the quote
marks ">" at the left margin -- as long as the e-mail program happens to
properly use and preserve those as well.	Enjoy,
		DoN.-- 
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
	(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Don,I don't know from HTML. Since I don't know from it, I couldn't do nasty
things with it.  As far as I knew, the colors would preserve through the
sending. I was only trying to identify the participants. Hokay?Cohen
-- 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 23 May 2005 19:02
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Much of the text given here is composed of Northern Irish commonplaces.
> Gale Huntington's version of Songs of the People contains a whole family of
> related songs tied in with versions of the Cuckoo. It seems to resemble
> most closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon Clody'(Bunclody),
> particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was a bird stanza, but there
> are other lines in common with oral versions as well.Bunclody, or one of its close relatives ("I rise in the morning with my heart full of woe" -Petrie-
, etc) is the likely direct ancestor of the American "Pretty Saro", both text and tune. A P Graves
set his "My Love's an Arbutus" to a melody from the same family.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bennett schwartz" <[unmask]><<Thanks for your help.
I bought this record in St John's, Newfoundland sometime between Oct 1955 
and April 1957.
The label says "Made in England" I am ignorant about this stuff--matrix numbers, etc., but this is what I 
seeSide A
Scratched into the record itself  "N|PLT"(the | could be a sub-1),"U", a 
possibly reversed 1,  and "DR 11812-2"
Side B
Scratched into the record itself "NPLT", "OA",  "U", a reversed "2" 
overstamped on "1",  and "DR11826-1">>That would have been recorded late in 1947, probably issued early in 1948. Peace,
Paul

Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this song, the story behind it and any other such related information. I am quite certain that I would not call this a Ballad in the traditional sense but it may be a taming down of some of the ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive children's ears it was seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses that are all I have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on this song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you have verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something of a story that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell me the source. Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of question without just going to this well of knowledge and asking would be appreciated.  My Bonnie Lies over the ocean - X3
Oh Bring back my bonnie to me. Bring Back, bring back, Bring back my Bonnie to me, to me; 
Bring back, bring back, Oh bring back my Bonnie to me.Last night as I lay on my pillow - X3
Oh bring back my Bonnie to me. I also would like to publicly acknowledge that you may all thank "Any" Cohen  for turning me on to this list and yes, I can assure there is a riddle in their somewhere. Many thanks.Sammy Rich
[unmask]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sammy Rich" <[unmask]><<Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this song, the
story behind it and any other such related information. I am quite certain
that I would not call this a Ballad in the traditional sense but it may be a
taming down of some of the ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive
children's ears it was seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses
that are all I have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on
this song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you have
verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something of a story
that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell me the source.Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of question
without just going to this well of knowledge and asking would be
appreciated.  >>There are several good places. One place to look is the Traditional Ballad
Index, which is at:http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.htmlHere's what it says about the song:NAME: My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean
DESCRIPTION: The singer laments that his bonnie is across the waves, and
implores that
someone "bring back my bonnie to me." He asks the winds specifically to
carry her. (He
dreams she is dead.) (He rejoices that the winds have blown his bonnie to
him.)
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1881 (Hills's "Student Songs")
KEYWORDS: love separation sea reunion
FOUND IN: US
REFERENCES (3 citations):
Silber-FSWB, p. 143, "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean" (1 text)
Fuld-WFM, p. 381, "My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean"
DT, MYBONNIE*
RECORDINGS:
Haydn Quartet, "Bring Back My Bonnie to Me" (Victor A-123, 1900)
Leake County Revelers, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (Columbia 15227-D,
1928)
Ella Logan, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (Brunswick 8196, 1938)
Mobile Strugglers, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (on AmSkBa)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "My God, How the Money Rolls In" (tune)
cf. "The Cowboy's Dream" (tune)
cf. "Tom Twist" (tune)
SAME TUNE:
Tom Twist (File: FlBr171)
My Children Are Seven in Number (Greenway-AFP, p. 166; on PeteSeeger13,
AmHist1)
Bring Back My Neighbors to Me (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 119)
Yuck! Cats (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 67)
Come Up, Dear Dinner, Come Up (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 121)
My Body Has Tuberculosis (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 131)
Zekey Looked into the Gas Tank (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 133)
Nora Bayes, "My Barney Lies Over the Ocean" (Columbia A-2678, 1918)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
My Bonnie
Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
NOTES: Fuld notes an 1882 printing of this song under the title H. J. Fulmer
(Charles E.
Pratt). This text, however, disagrees with the 1881 printing, and Fuld
suspects that Pratt is
responsible only for the adaption.
The song obviously has spawned a number of parodies and borrowings. It
itself, however,
seems relatively constant, and the parodies are all recent. It thus seems
likely that the song
is fairly recent, and that most known versions derive from the 1881
printing. - RBW[Paul again:] One of the references is to a mysterious "DT" -- that's the
Digital Tradition, which is at:http://www.mudcat.org/The database (9,000 songs) is there, as is a forum where a lot of additional
material is discussed. You can search both. Then you can go to the Folk
Music Index:http://www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/to find more recordings -- the recordings in the Traditional Ballad Index
are mostly of source performers, whereas the Folk Music Index includes
revival performers as well.When there is reason to suspect a sheet-music origin for the song, it's
worth checking the Levy Collection:http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.htmlthe Historic American Sheet Music Collection at Duke:http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/sheetmusic/search.htmland the Library of Congress's American Memory collections (which also
include field recordings):http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/Those are the first places I look when I'm trying to track something down.Peace,
Paul

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Sammy:James Fuld's reliable _Book of World-Famous Music_ (1966) states that "My Bonnie" was first printed in an 1881 student song collection in Cambridge, Mass.  He goes a short  history of the tune.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Sammy Rich <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:33 pm
Subject: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me> Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this 
> song, the story behind it and any other such related information. I 
> am quite certain that I would not call this a Ballad in the 
> traditional sense but it may be a taming down of some of the 
> ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive children's ears it was 
> seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses that are all I 
> have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on this 
> song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you 
> have verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something 
> of a story that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell 
> me the source. 
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of 
> question without just going to this well of knowledge and asking 
> would be appreciated.  
> 
> My Bonnie Lies over the ocean - X3
> Oh Bring back my bonnie to me. 
> 
> Bring Back, bring back, Bring back my Bonnie to me, to me; 
> Bring back, bring back, Oh bring back my Bonnie to me.
> 
> Last night as I lay on my pillow - X3
> Oh bring back my Bonnie to me. 
> 
> I also would like to publicly acknowledge that you may all thank 
> "Any" Cohen  for turning me on to this list and yes, I can assure 
> there is a riddle in their somewhere. 
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> Sammy Rich
> [unmask]
> 

Regarding "Cork Harbor" (or "The Blinded Sailor") as
sung (and nicely too) by Deirdre Murtha, Dan Milner
and Bonnie Milner on the CD "Irish Songs from Old New
England", does anyone have information on the tune. It
sounds like a hymn tune, but I'm just guessing.
Thanks.C.

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Ed:That is amazing how someone came up with a short history when there wasn't one for eighty years.  I hope my memory improves with age that much.  I will definitely look up his book.Thanks Sammy
> 
> From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> Date: 2005/05/24 Tue AM 07:11:34 EDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
> 
> Sammy:
> 
> James Fuld's reliable _Book of World-Famous Music_ (1966) states that "My Bonnie" was first printed in an 1881 student song collection in Cambridge, Mass.  He goes a short  history of the tune.
> 
> Ed
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sammy Rich <[unmask]>
> Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:33 pm
> Subject: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
> 
> > Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this 
> > song, the story behind it and any other such related information. I 
> > am quite certain that I would not call this a Ballad in the 
> > traditional sense but it may be a taming down of some of the 
> > ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive children's ears it was 
> > seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses that are all I 
> > have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on this 
> > song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you 
> > have verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something 
> > of a story that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell 
> > me the source. 
> > 
> > Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of 
> > question without just going to this well of knowledge and asking 
> > would be appreciated.  
> > 
> > My Bonnie Lies over the ocean - X3
> > Oh Bring back my bonnie to me. 
> > 
> > Bring Back, bring back, Bring back my Bonnie to me, to me; 
> > Bring back, bring back, Oh bring back my Bonnie to me.
> > 
> > Last night as I lay on my pillow - X3
> > Oh bring back my Bonnie to me. 
> > 
> > I also would like to publicly acknowledge that you may all thank 
> > "Any" Cohen  for turning me on to this list and yes, I can assure 
> > there is a riddle in their somewhere. 
> > 
> > Many thanks.
> > 
> > Sammy Rich
> > [unmask]
> > 
> 

Paul:  That is exactly what I wanted to see a checklist of sources for information all together in one place.  I am pretty sure there may be others, but this is an outstanding start. Sammy Rich
> 
> From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> Date: 2005/05/24 Tue AM 01:55:50 EDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sammy Rich" <[unmask]>
> 
> <<Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this song, the
> story behind it and any other such related information. I am quite certain
> that I would not call this a Ballad in the traditional sense but it may be a
> taming down of some of the ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive
> children's ears it was seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses
> that are all I have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on
> this song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you have
> verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something of a story
> that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell me the source.
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of question
> without just going to this well of knowledge and asking would be
> appreciated.  >>
> 
> There are several good places. One place to look is the Traditional Ballad
> Index, which is at:
> 
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
> 
> Here's what it says about the song:
> 
> NAME: My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean
> DESCRIPTION: The singer laments that his bonnie is across the waves, and
> implores that
> someone "bring back my bonnie to me." He asks the winds specifically to
> carry her. (He
> dreams she is dead.) (He rejoices that the winds have blown his bonnie to
> him.)
> AUTHOR: unknown
> EARLIEST DATE: 1881 (Hills's "Student Songs")
> KEYWORDS: love separation sea reunion
> FOUND IN: US
> REFERENCES (3 citations):
> Silber-FSWB, p. 143, "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean" (1 text)
> Fuld-WFM, p. 381, "My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean"
> DT, MYBONNIE*
> RECORDINGS:
> Haydn Quartet, "Bring Back My Bonnie to Me" (Victor A-123, 1900)
> Leake County Revelers, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (Columbia 15227-D,
> 1928)
> Ella Logan, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (Brunswick 8196, 1938)
> Mobile Strugglers, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (on AmSkBa)
> CROSS-REFERENCES:
> cf. "My God, How the Money Rolls In" (tune)
> cf. "The Cowboy's Dream" (tune)
> cf. "Tom Twist" (tune)
> SAME TUNE:
> Tom Twist (File: FlBr171)
> My Children Are Seven in Number (Greenway-AFP, p. 166; on PeteSeeger13,
> AmHist1)
> Bring Back My Neighbors to Me (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 119)
> Yuck! Cats (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 67)
> Come Up, Dear Dinner, Come Up (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 121)
> My Body Has Tuberculosis (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 131)
> Zekey Looked into the Gas Tank (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 133)
> Nora Bayes, "My Barney Lies Over the Ocean" (Columbia A-2678, 1918)
> ALTERNATE TITLES:
> My Bonnie
> Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
> NOTES: Fuld notes an 1882 printing of this song under the title H. J. Fulmer
> (Charles E.
> Pratt). This text, however, disagrees with the 1881 printing, and Fuld
> suspects that Pratt is
> responsible only for the adaption.
> The song obviously has spawned a number of parodies and borrowings. It
> itself, however,
> seems relatively constant, and the parodies are all recent. It thus seems
> likely that the song
> is fairly recent, and that most known versions derive from the 1881
> printing. - RBW
> 
> [Paul again:] One of the references is to a mysterious "DT" -- that's the
> Digital Tradition, which is at:
> 
> http://www.mudcat.org/
> 
> The database (9,000 songs) is there, as is a forum where a lot of additional
> material is discussed. You can search both. Then you can go to the Folk
> Music Index:
> 
> http://www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/
> 
> to find more recordings -- the recordings in the Traditional Ballad Index
> are mostly of source performers, whereas the Folk Music Index includes
> revival performers as well.
> 
> When there is reason to suspect a sheet-music origin for the song, it's
> worth checking the Levy Collection:
> 
> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.html
> 
> the Historic American Sheet Music Collection at Duke:
> 
> http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/sheetmusic/search.html
> 
> and the Library of Congress's American Memory collections (which also
> include field recordings):
> 
> http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/
> 
> 
> Those are the first places I look when I'm trying to track something down.
> 
> Peace,
> Paul
> 

Bennett,
Go ahead and use it, in fact anything I post on the List anyone feel free
to use without asking.
Ed,
Re Master Titles, yes it is part of the Roud Index project and any future
publishing of it would have to be with permission of Steve (and the rest of
the interest group working on the Roud Index)SteveG

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Thanks for that.  Last point: is there any way you'd want your name 
qualified or your position stated?
Ben Schwartz
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Bennett,
> Go ahead and use it, in fact anything I post on the List anyone feel free
> to use without asking.
> Ed,
> Re Master Titles, yes it is part of the Roud Index project and any future
> publishing of it would have to be with permission of Steve (and the rest 
> of
> the interest group working on the Roud Index)
>
> SteveG
> 

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On 5/24/05, [unmask] wrote:>Collected in 1951 from Mrs. Cecilia Costello of Birmingham, England (and Irish extraction)
> 
>He's gone, I am now sad and lonely,
>He's left me to sail the salt sea.
>I know that he thinks of me only,
>And will soon be returning to me.[ ... ]I'm not sure which message this is in reply to, but this particular
song is rarely known as "Bring Back My Bonnie." Typically the
missing lover is "Johnnie" or "Barney."By chance, it hasn't turned up in the Ballad Index much (only
the Sam Henry version, "Bring Back My Barney to Me," from 1923),
but Roud has quite a few references (#1422).-- 
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[unmask]><<Collected in 1951 from Mrs. Cecilia Costello of Birmingham, England (and
Irish extraction)He's gone, I am now sad and lonely,
He's left me to sail the salt sea.
I know that he thinks of me only,
And will soon be returning to me.Chorus:
Some say that my love is returning,
To his own native country and me.
Blow gently the winds of the ocean,
And bring back my Johnny to me.     (I've also heard it  sung, "Bring back
my
Barney to me.")He's gone now his fortune to better,
I know that he's gone for my sake.
And soon I'll be getting a letter,
Or else my poor heart it will break.Last night as I lay on my pillow,
My bosom it heaved with a sigh,
As I thought on each angery billow,
While watching the clouds in the sky.This version has been recorded by Isla Cameron and Joe Hickerson that I
know
of... possibly others>>A. L. Lloyd, in his liner notes to the Watersons' "For Pence and Spicy Ale",
says the song was "A stage song favoured by Irish comedians from the 1860s
on. During the 1880s, apparently on American university campuses,
close-harmony groups remade it into the better-known -- and even more
preposterous -- "My Bonny Lies Over the Ocean". Watersons had this from Bob
Davenport who learnt it from a Frank Quinn 78."I wish Lloyd had documented the song's popularity in the 1860s! Are his
papers accessible anywhere?Peace,
Paul

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]><<I'm not sure which message this is in reply to, but this particular
song is rarely known as "Bring Back My Bonnie." Typically the
missing lover is "Johnnie" or "Barney."By chance, it hasn't turned up in the Ballad Index much (only
the Sam Henry version, "Bring Back My Barney to Me," from 1923),
but Roud has quite a few references (#1422).>>I've found an 1876 song which all of these *may* be a parody of:http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?mussm:1:./temp/~ammem_I1QJ::Its words are Victorian sentimentalia, the "bring back, bring back" chorus
is missing, and the tune is 4/4 rather than 3/4, but the opening section is
melodically similar. A music-hall singer or American college students could
well have used this as the basis for a parody, notwithstanding A. L. Lloyd's
suggestion that it was a popular stage-Irish song in the 1860s.Peace,
Paul

On Tue, May 24, 2005 at 10:53:09AM -0400, [unmask] wrote:
> Collected in 1951 from Mrs. Cecilia Costello of Birmingham, England (and  
> Irish extraction)
>  
> He's gone, I am now sad and lonely,
> He's left me to sail the salt sea.
...
> This version has been recorded by Isla Cameron and Joe Hickerson that I  know 
> of... possibly others
  
	Is also printed in 'Sam Henry's "Songs of the People"' (U of Ga Press, 1990), ed
Huntington/Herrmann (that's I, BTW).  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Steve(s):Be assured we would not  post anything that infringed on the good work you folks are doing.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:22 am
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Bennett,
> Go ahead and use it, in fact anything I post on the List anyone 
> feel free
> to use without asking.
> Ed,
> Re Master Titles, yes it is part of the Roud Index project and any 
> futurepublishing of it would have to be with permission of Steve 
> (and the rest of
> the interest group working on the Roud Index)
> 
> SteveG
> 

A.L. Lloyd's liner notes are not always trustworthy, but in this case he 
seems to be pretty much on the nail. The song 'Send (or Bring) Back My 
Barney to Me' was published in several British songsters and broadsides - 
definitely as early as 1872, and probably in the 1860s too. The text is 
pretty similar to the Cecilia Cosatello version quoted below.
If you put the 'Barney' text next to the standard 'My Bonnie Lies over the 
Ocean', it's pretty clear that the latter is at least 'inspired by' the 
former - several ines are pretty close, and the whole feel is similar.
Kilgariff says that the author of 'Bonnie' was Charles E. Pratt (1841-1902) 
aka H.J. Fulmer, and possibly J.T. Wood.----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <[unmask]>
>
>
> <<Collected in 1951 from Mrs. Cecilia Costello of Birmingham, England (and
> Irish extraction)
>
> He's gone, I am now sad and lonely,
> He's left me to sail the salt sea.
> I know that he thinks of me only,
> And will soon be returning to me.
>
> Chorus:
> Some say that my love is returning,
> To his own native country and me.
> Blow gently the winds of the ocean,
> And bring back my Johnny to me.     (I've also heard it  sung, "Bring back
> my
> Barney to me.")
>
> He's gone now his fortune to better,
> I know that he's gone for my sake.
> And soon I'll be getting a letter,
> Or else my poor heart it will break.
>
> Last night as I lay on my pillow,
> My bosom it heaved with a sigh,
> As I thought on each angery billow,
> While watching the clouds in the sky.
>
> This version has been recorded by Isla Cameron and Joe Hickerson that I
> know
> of... possibly others>>
>
> A. L. Lloyd, in his liner notes to the Watersons' "For Pence and Spicy 
> Ale",
> says the song was "A stage song favoured by Irish comedians from the 1860s
> on. During the 1880s, apparently on American university campuses,
> close-harmony groups remade it into the better-known -- and even more
> preposterous -- "My Bonny Lies Over the Ocean". Watersons had this from 
> Bob
> Davenport who learnt it from a Frank Quinn 78."
>
> I wish Lloyd had documented the song's popularity in the 1860s! Are his
> papers accessible anywhere?
>
> Peace,
> Paul
> 

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As Master Titles have been mentioned on the list, in the Glasloch thread, 
perhaps I can explain somethinmg of what's going on. A group of us in the UK 
are working on extending my Folk Song Index in various directions, and one 
of the things that Steve Gardham is currently working hard on is the 
assigning of Master Titles to match the Master Numbers (Roud numbers) which 
are the core of the index as it stands at present.Before we get howls of protest about evil attempts to standardise the 
tradition and dictate to people what they should call their songs, I must 
explain that the Master Titles are simply an indexing tool, partly because 
numbers are so impersonal and non-memorable.The choice of a particular title is based on a mixture of factors, including 
original/earliest known, and what most singers/editors have called the song. 
Some are pretty obvious - Barbara Allen; The Farmer's Boy; for example, 
while others are quite complex. Sometimes editors have screwed things up - 
Child's title of 'Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight' for what most of the world 
knows as 'The Outlandish Kinight' is a good example. In other cases, a 
perfectly good title like 'The Foggy Dew' has been used legitimately for 
three distinct songs.A new version of my Indexes will be circulated to subscribers very soon, 
with some new features (to be announced soon) but it won't include Steve's 
work, beacause he's still working hard at it. The following update probably 
will.One further point should be made - Steve G. is working on the  tradition in 
England, for which he is uniquely qualified - but we are well aware that 
songs which exist in England and in other traditions may well have 
different Master Titles in each area.Anyone in the US / Ireland / Scotland / Australia / etc. interested in 
co-operating on their own areas?Steve Roud----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Steve(s):
>
> Be assured we would not  post anything that infringed on the good work you 
> folks are doing.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
> Date: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:22 am
> Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch
>
>> Bennett,
>> Go ahead and use it, in fact anything I post on the List anyone
>> feel free
>> to use without asking.
>> Ed,
>> Re Master Titles, yes it is part of the Roud Index project and any
>> futurepublishing of it would have to be with permission of Steve
>> (and the rest of
>> the interest group working on the Roud Index)
>>
>> SteveG
>>
> 

On 2005/05/23 at 07:32:14PM -0500, Andy wrote:> Don,
> 
> I don't know from HTML. Since I don't know from it, I couldn't do nasty
> things with it.	Agreed -- but I was explaining why I don't allow anything to
read e-mail which *does know it -- because spammers and virus writers
*do* know it, and *do* use it in nasty way.>                  As far as I knew, the colors would preserve through the
> sending. I was only trying to identify the participants. Hokay?	Understood -- I was *explaining* why your expectations were not
correct (for your benefit, and for others), not complaining.	Enjoy,
		DoN.-- 
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
	(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

One part of the discussion of "Down in Glasloch" had to do with the kind of 
group musical accompaniment we accept as close enough to traditional that we 
would consider indexing a record with that accompaniment.  (I'm sure there 
are great fiddlers, concertina players, pianists, and so forth in every 
tradition but I am interested here in groups)For example, the pre-Scruggs guitar-fiddle-banjo string band seems to 
qualify as one US "traditional" configuration; the jug band qualifies as 
another.
Are there "traditional" band or orchestra analogs for other English-speaking 
countries?  I assume so, but I don't know what they are.  For example, are 
there any such examples on the TOPIC "Voice of the People" set?  What about 
other albums?Ben Schwartz 

On Tuesday, May 24, 2005 7:16 PM ben schwartz wrote
>
.
> Are there "traditional" band or orchestra analogs for other 
> English-speaking countries?Would we ever consider a post-1945 form "traditional"? Trinidad steel-band, 
Jamaica ska, St Croix scratch?There are pre-1946 forms we don't consider: swing, big band, dixieland.
What pre-1946 forms beside US jug and string band do we consider?Are there "traditional" group forms in the Maritimes and Newfoundland?Just asking.Ben Schwartz 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bennett schwartz" <[unmask]><<Would we ever consider a post-1945 form "traditional"? Trinidad
steel-band,
Jamaica ska, St Croix scratch?There are pre-1946 forms we don't consider: swing, big band, dixieland.
What pre-1946 forms beside US jug and string band do we consider?Are there "traditional" group forms in the Maritimes and Newfoundland?Just asking.>>If this is about indexing for the Ballad Index, personally I'd rather not
consider the style at all; my criterion is the material. "Traditional style"
is a slippery enough concept that it oozes out of your hands when you try to
grab it. And besides, I'm interested in the fact that the same song wends
its way through styles ranging from a capella (British) to a capella
(southern mountains) to old-time string band to bluegrass to
country-and-western band to rock band -- *that's* the traditional process,
not any particular attributes of the group's instrumentation.Peace,
Paul

Bennett,
Just plain ole 'Steve Gardham' no frills - ain't got none!

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Send Back My Barney to Me was printed by Glasgow Poets Box on a broadside
1870 and also printed by Pearson of Manchester, stock number 576. Someone
out there may have a date for that stock number. It's probably about the
same date as the GPB. Pearson--on the same sheet are 'John Bull and the
Yankee' and 'Bonnie Soldier Laddie'. Sanderson of Edinburgh also printed it
but he went on into the 1920s. I see from my indexes that both Pearson and
Sanderson printed what could be a parody 'Send back my Mary to me'.Pearson
took over Bebbington's stock numbers in 1861 and I have no record of a
Bebbington printing. Also the broadside carries an actual Pearson imprint
which suggests it's a later printing because when Pearson took over from
Bebbington he just scratched out Bebbington's name on the stock plates and
re-issued them.

BALLAD-L automatic digest system <[unmask]>, in
the person of Murray Shoolbraid, writes:> Anent the info aboveWhere?> about the Haddington version of "The Crabfish"Here is a version that was sung (under the name "The Lobster") by
students at St Andrews University, Scotland, in 1958:"Good morning, Mr Fisherman!"  "Good morning, sir!" said he.
"Have you a lobster for my tea?"CHORUS:  Singing aye, aye, aye, shit or bust,
         Never let your ballocks dangle in the dust."Oh yes, I have a lobster, indeed I have two:
One for me and the other for you,"Well, I took the lobster home, but I couldn't find a dish,
So I put it in the pot where you're used to take a piss,Well, early in the morning, as everyone should know,
A woman must get up to let the water flow.The lobster looked up with a smile on its kisser,
And he took a grab at my old lady's pisser,Well, the lady gave a scream and the lobster gave a grunt,
And she jumped from the pot with the lobster on her cunt,Well, I grabbed a shovel and my wife she grabbed a broom
And we chased the fucking lobster around the fucking room,We hit it on the arse and we hit it on the head
And we beat the fucking lobster till it was fucking dead.The moral of the story is plain as it can be:
Take a look into the pisspot before you take a pee,That's the end of the story; there isn't any more:
There's an apple up my arsehole and you can have the core,[Sometimes added:]
Well, now the story's over, and I don't give a fuck:
There's an orange up my arsehole, and you can have a suck,The bit about it grabbing the husband by the nose is not there!  When
I found out about it years later, I thought it too good to miss, and
undertook to add after the sixth stanza:Well, I ran to take a look, not putting on my clothes;
He up with his claw and grabbed me by the nose,"We must ride to the doctor", my wife she did declare,
"To get your nose out of my affair,"Another version appears in _A Book of Vulgar Verse_ (Anon., 1981,
looks like an offset reprint), under the title "Good Morning Mister
Fisherman":Good morning mister fisherman, I wish you very well,
Good morning mister fisherman, I wish you very well;
Pray tell me have you any sea-crabs for to sell?
  Mush a ding eye, mush a doo eye day![Likewise:]
I have got sea-crabs, one--two--three,
So take any that you want for it's all the same to me.So I grabbed one by his backbone,
And I rustled and I tussled till I got the bastard home.When I got home everybody was asleep,
So I put him in the pisspot there for to keep.The ould woman got up for to do a little squat,
And the go[d]-damned sea-crab grabbed her by the twat.Ould man, ould man, what shall I do?
The divil's in the pisspot and's got me by the flue.So I ran over and lifted up her clothes,
And he took his other pincher and he grabbed me by the nose.Now Johnny, have the doctor hitch up his horse and cart,
To get your father's nose and your mother's arse apart.A crab with a backbone!  Bawdy songs are full of anatomical wonders.%^)
-- 
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Masochist:  "Hurt me!"  :||
||:  Sadist:  "No."          :||

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JOE FINEMAN
Another version appears in _A Book of Vulgar Verse_ (Anon., 1981,
looks like an offset reprint), under the title "Good Morning
Mister Fisherman":MEHLBERG
_A Book of Vulgar Verse_ is an reprint of _Immortalia_.
See here: http://tinyurl.com/2hwox

Hello everyone,Here is a PDF of an 1880s reprint of the 1661 songbook titled
_An Antidote Against Melancholy_  (8.7MB):http://immortalia.com/1661-an-antidote-against-melancholy-1880s-reprint.zipHere are Legman's comments on this book:    _An Antidote against Melancholy: Made up
    into Pills, compounded of witty ballads, jovial
    songs, and merry catches. 1661. London:
    Mercurius Melancholicus_. (Copy: Folger Library,
    Washington, D.C.) Address to the Reader signed
    "N.D." being finial initials of the editor-publisher,
    John PLAYFORD. Reprinted, London, 1669, with
    Playford's open imprint. Note: caption and
    runningtitle of 1661 edition are _Pills to Purge
    Melancholly_, q. v.Legman did not know of this reprint edition.Yours,John Mehlberg
~
My bawdy songs, toasts and recitations website:
www.immortalia.com.

John,Thanks for the download. These kinds of things are
almost impossible to come by otherwise. A very good
technical job on the scan-- very bright and clear.
Could you list the hardware/software used? Thanks
again.C.> Date:    Thu, 26 May 2005 15:50:05 -0500
> From:    John Mehlberg <[unmask]>
> Subject: 1661 _An Antidote Against Melancholy_
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Here is a PDF of an 1880s reprint of the 1661
songbook titled An Antidote Against Melancholy_ 
(8.7MB):
> 

If anyone on the list is interested please
contact Paul Wollerman directly
[unmask]thanks,
Karen Ellis>Subject: Mary O. Eddy's piano
>
>From: [unmask]
>Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:18:44 -0600
>
>Hello Karen.  I found your info through the Cyber PG website, which I got
>to by searching on Joel Bernstein, which I did because I found a reference
>to his personal "Library Collection of Ballads" link on your website.  I
>did that because he apparently has a copy of Mary O. Eddy's 'Ballads and
>Songs from Ohio' in his collection.
>
>I found other references to this book, which I knew of already, but this
>was the most interesting, as none of the other links/references led to
>people I could contact.
>
>At any rate, here is why I am writing:  I have Mary O. Eddy's piano.  My
>grandmother bought Miss Eddy's (as my grandmother always called her) house
>in Perrysville Ohio in the early 1960's, and this piano was part of the
>deal.  I played it as a little boy, and she left it to me when she died.  I
>have not done anything with it, and want to get it out of my garage.  It's
>now occurred to me that some folklorist out there might be interested in
>it.  Maybe that's a stretch, but I'd rather give it a good home than just
>send it to a thrift store or the like.
>
>The piano itself is not really worth anything on its own; it's just another
>1880s-vintage upright in need of rebuilding.  Such animals are quite thick
>on the ground in most parts of the country, and no one will give a dime for
>them.
>
>I thought that since you are acquainted with Joel Bernstein and probably a
>few other folks like him, that someone might know of a museum or
>organization that would be interested in taking this thing.  Or might want
>it themselves.
>
>I'm not looking to make money here, I just hate the thought of it being
>destroyed.
>
>The piano is in Denver, Colorado, by the way.
>
>Thanks for any help you can give,
>Paul Wollerman<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
Guavaberry Books
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/
Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I.
Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers  - 2x Grammy WinnersThe Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/National Children's Folksong Repository
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/Hot List of Schools Online
Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community7 Hot Site Awards
New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>  

Hi!	Only two lists this week :-) The general folklore list will be
posted tomorrow. Meanwhile, I hope that everyone enjoys the holiday
weekend.         SONGSTERS & BROADSIDES        3976395000 - United States Songster, 1836, $27.01 w/reserve (ends
May-28-05 13:32:07 PDT)        6534383944 - FAMOUS CANADIAN JUBILEE SINGERS-PLANTATION LULLABIES,
1890?, $9.95 (ends May-28-05 14:17:27 PDT)        6535457426 - Griggs Southern and Western Songster, $29.99 (ends
Jun-05-05 19:15:00 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        6961815972 - Spin magazine, 1966, 1.20 GBP (ends May-28-05 12:21:16
PDT)        6961823743 - Smithsonian magazine, 1985, $3.99 (ends May-28-05
13:28:53 PDT)        4729448233 - The Chicago String Band, LP, 1966, $19.99 (ends
May-29-05 18:15:00 PDT)	4733400025 - I Once Was A Daysman by Butcher, LP, 1976, 3.95 GBP 
(ends Jun-05-05 05:57:10 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        4551754866 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends by Korson, 1960, $6.99
(ends May-28-05 15:26:16 PDT)        5200669740 - THE RESTORATION OF COCK ROBIN by Iles, 1989, 4.95 GBP
(ends May-29-05 10:24:24 PDT)        6962147594 - ENGLISH SONGS AND BALLADS by Crosland, 1903, 2.99 GBP 
(ends May-31-05 04:01:06 PDT)	7976681868 - SINGING GAMES AND PLAYPARTY GAMES by Chase, 1967 
Dover reprint, $0.99 (ends May-31-05 09:43:55 PDT)	6535224556 - 2 books (The American Folk Scene: Dimensions of the 
Folksong Revival by DeTurk & Pollin, 1967 and Woke Up This Mornin': Poetry 
of The Blues by Nicholas, 1973), $9.99 (ends Jun-01-05 09:08:49 PDT)	7325859280 - Cumberland Ridgerunners, 1930?, $17.99 w/reserve 
(ends Jun-01-05 13:12:59 PDT)	8307898787 - Poetica Erotica by Smith, 1927, $9.99 (ends 
Jun-01-05 16:27:53 PDT)	4552696410 - FOLK SONGS OF THE CARIBBEAN by Morse, $4.98 (ends 
Jun-02-05 05:42:12 PDT)	4552696723 - SONGS FROM THE FRONT & REAR by Hopkins, 1979, $9.98 
(ends Jun-02-05 05:46:10 PDT)	7325855856 - Shanties From The Seven Seas by Hugill, 1996 Mystic 
Seaport reprint, 1.99 GBP (ends Jun-04-05 12:59:34 PDT)	6962455410 - 2 books (A Bundle of Ballads & Lays of the Scottish 
Cavaliers and other poems by Morley/Aytoun), 1891, 14.99 GBP (ends 
Jun-05-05 13:24:00 PDT)	8308065244 - Songs Under Sail by Heaton, 1963, 2.50 GBP (ends 
Jun-05-05 13:54:54 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
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