Jonathan:Can you give me a cite for the Harrington text?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 11:03 am
Subject: Re: Child Ballads: What do asterisk ellipses mean?> Joe, I believe that both motives were operative.  And except for 
> Legman's assertion that Child consciously suppressed an available 
> stanza of "Trooper and Maid," I can think of no real source of 
> guidance in this matter except to inspect Child's original sources. 
> 
> 
> If you have the time, of course.
> 
> On the positive side, I doubt that Child had to exert moral 
> censorship on more than two or three ballads.  He expresses his 
> disgust at a passage in "The Keach in the Creel" which he doesn't 
> specify, but he doesn't delete it either. (Nowadays it's hard to be 
> sure just what was bugging him.  Despite a presumption that it had 
> to do with the Scots word "keach," my own guess is that it was the 
> line "There's a man in our daughter's bed."
> 
> Child utterly suppressed the "Crabfish" ballad, but that means he 
> didn't delete individual stanzas.  The texts available to him are 
> apparently now readily findable, so all we're missing is his wide-
> ranging commentary :  taken together, the info published by Gus 
> Meade, Legman and Ed Cray is probably as extensive as anything 
> Child might have presented.  ( Let me draw attention to the second 
> oldest text in English, that which appears as a very clever conte-
> en-vers in the works of the very clever Lord Harrington in the 
> early 18th C.  Neither Legman nor Cray mention this one.)
> 
> On the purely scatological side, Child allowed the phrase "not 
> worth a turd" to remain in one of the Robin Hood ballads.
> 
> All the above is from memory, so please forgive what I hope may be 
> minor inaccuracies.
> 
> JL
> 
> Joe Fineman <[unmask]> wrote:
> BALLAD-L automatic digest system 
> , in
> the person of Bill Paulson, writes:
> 
> > In the discussion of how to proofread this particular book, several
> > readers have noticed that some ballads use italics for some letters
> > of some words.
> 
> This query reminds me of another typographical puzzle in Child that I
> have wondered about for some time. Often, parts of the texts are
> replaced by rows of asterisks. It seems likely that most or all of
> these represent illegible or missing parts. Might it be, however,
> that some of them represent suppression of bawdy material -- and if
> so, how might one tell the difference?
> -- 
> --- Joe Fineman [unmask]
> 
> ||: Never being in love is like never being in debt. :||
> 
>        	
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn 
> more.

Back in the early forties there was a song called "Rose O'Day". I can remember a line and a bit: "Rose O'Day, Rose O'Day\  You're my. . . ." And that's all she wrote.
Sandy Ives

Could the questioner be confusing Katy Daly & Rose Connolly?Mary Cliff

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi!	As promised, here is part 3 and I did make before midnight (at
least in this time zone). :-)	MISCELLANEOUS	4728938827 - Songs of the Ozarks by O'Bryant & Hunter, LP, $5.99 
(ends May-19-05 16:15:41 PDT)	4729765825 - Copper Songs by The Copper Family, LP, 4.99 GBP (ends 
May-22-05 12:45:12 PDT)	4729799162 - SONGS OF A DONEGAL MAN by Byrne, LP, 1975, 7.99 GBP
(ends May-22-05 14:25:35 PDT)	7323027087 - Folksongs and Ballads by White, cassette, 1991, $9.99 
(ends May-24-05 18:30:00 PDT)	SONGBOOKS, ETC.	7322265084 - Music in Colonial Massachusetts. 1630-1820, 2 volumes,
1980, $98 (ends May-18-05 18:56:08 PDT)	6960368148 - Songs of the Dawn by Brayton, 1913, $9.99 (ends 
May-18-05 21:05:04 PDT)	5196598824 - English & Scottish Ballads by Graves, 1963 reprint,
2 GBP (ends May-19-05 08:48:17 PDT)	4549883194 - FOLKSONGS OF THE MARITIMES by Pottie & Ellis, 1992, 
$45 (ends May-19-05 10:52:43 PDT)	4549893875 - English and Scottish Ballads by Child, 8 volumes in
4 books, 1885 reprint, $200 (ends May-19-05 11:33:02 PDT)	7322633337 - SONGS AND BALLADS OF THE MAINE LUMBERJACKS by Gray, 
1924, $19.95 (ends May-19-05 19:11:37 PDT)	7322641233 - Songs of the Great American West by Silber, 1995, 
$3.99 (ends May-19-05 19:30:23 PDT)	6532390608 - Traditional Ballads of Virginia by Davis, 1929, 
$9.95 (ends May-20-05 16:39:20 PDT)	4550330577 - Country Music U.S.A. by Malone, 1968, $3 (ends 
May-21-05 09:46:33 PDT)	7322208648 - More Folk Songs from Lincolnshire by O'Shaughnessy, 
2.20 GBP (ends May-21-05 13:52:41 PDT)	6532675908 - A Garland of New Songs, 1817, 14.99 GBP (ends 
May-22-05 07:23:54 PDT)	7323229601 - Personal Choice by MacColl, $7.99 (ends May-22-05 
12:23:25 PDT)	6960493478 - 2 books inc. A Bundle of Ballads by Morley, 1891, 
14.99 GBP (ends May-22-05 13:08:43 PDT)	6532772617 - A Lytell Gest of Robin Hode by Gutch, 1847, $45 
(ends May-22-05 13:45:05 PDT)	7323298373 - MINSTRELSY OF MAINE by Eckstrom & Smyth, 1927, $24.95
(ends May-22-05 16:40:58 PDT)	7323315948 - Victorian Folk Songs by Chilton, 1965, $7.99 (ends 
May-22-05 17:53:56 PDT)	7322698299 - the dowir dens o' yarrow, 1860, 6.31 GBP (ends 
May-23-05 00:22:27 PDT)	6532993682 - Mexican Border Ballads by Boatright, 1946, $9.99 
(ends May-23-05 11:52:42 PDT)	4550871466 - Voices from the Mountains by Carawan, 1975, $36.99 
(ends May-24-05 08:55:12 PDT)	8306229619 - THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS by Child,
1965 Dover reprint, $14.99 (ends May-24-05 11:27:53 PDT)	4550940573 - 2 booklets (SONGS OF THE HILL-FOLK and BEECH MOUNTAIN 
FOLK-SONGS AND BALLADS), 1934 & 1936, $9.99 (ends May-24-05 12:48:41 PDT)	8306019953 - Victoria's Inferno: Songs of the Old Mills, Mines, 
Manufactories, Canals and Railways by Raven, 4.99 GBP (ends May-26-05 
12:53:09 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

What is the Laws ballad collection? Are the songs
collected in  books, like Child, and, if so, are they
in print? Thanks.C.

Cliff:"Laws" is actually  G. Malcom Laws, Jr., who created two important and pioneering indicies: _Native American Balladry _ (American Folklore Society, 1964; rev. ed. 1975) and _American Balladry from British Broadsides_ (AFS, 1957).  I suppose that they have been overtaken by the indicies prepared by Steve Roud, Bob Waltz and the late Ken Olson, but, at the same time, all three respectfully cite the Laws numbers.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Cliff Abrams <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 6:15 am
Subject: Laws> What is the Laws ballad collection? Are the songs
> collected in  books, like Child, and, if so, are they
> in print? Thanks.
> 
> C.
> 

On 5/18/05, edward cray wrote:>Cliff:
>
>"Laws" is actually  G. Malcom Laws, Jr., who created two important and pioneering indicies: _Native American Balladry _ (American Folklore Society, 1964; rev. ed. 1975) and _American Balladry from British Broadsides_ (AFS, 1957).  I suppose that they have been overtaken by the indicies prepared by Steve Roud, Bob Waltz and the late Ken Olson, but, at the same time, all three respectfully cite the Laws numbers.FWIW, I would not consider the Ballad Index a replacement for Laws, and
I don't think the others can be so considered, either. If life lasts,
the Ballad Index will someday cite everything he cites, plus much he
does not; Roud's index already cites more. The Ballad Index has much
more history.But Laws has organization, grouping songs by type. Plus there is
the introductory material. One may not agree with all of it -- I
don't -- but one has to treat it respectfully.To answer some of the initial questions: No, Laws does not collect
song texts. He prints sample stanzas in his appendices (the crucial
part of his work -- that's where the songs are listed), and has a
few texts in the main body. But his work is mostly a bibliography,
listing the versions of the song he is aware of.The books are out of print, though I believe someone is working
on an electronic edition.-- 
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

For what it's worth, The Digital Tradition has at least one example of 
virtually all the songs Laws catalogued, and is searchable by Laws 
number. A great weakness of the Laws work is that it's largely a 
bibliography of unavailable sources.dick greenhausRobert B. Waltz wrote:>On 5/18/05, edward cray wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Cliff:
>>
>>"Laws" is actually  G. Malcom Laws, Jr., who created two important and pioneering indicies: _Native American Balladry _ (American Folklore Society, 1964; rev. ed. 1975) and _American Balladry from British Broadsides_ (AFS, 1957).  I suppose that they have been overtaken by the indicies prepared by Steve Roud, Bob Waltz and the late Ken Olson, but, at the same time, all three respectfully cite the Laws numbers.
>>    
>>
>
>FWIW, I would not consider the Ballad Index a replacement for Laws, and
>I don't think the others can be so considered, either. If life lasts,
>the Ballad Index will someday cite everything he cites, plus much he
>does not; Roud's index already cites more. The Ballad Index has much
>more history.
>
>But Laws has organization, grouping songs by type. Plus there is
>the introductory material. One may not agree with all of it -- I
>don't -- but one has to treat it respectfully.
>
>To answer some of the initial questions: No, Laws does not collect
>song texts. He prints sample stanzas in his appendices (the crucial
>part of his work -- that's where the songs are listed), and has a
>few texts in the main body. But his work is mostly a bibliography,
>listing the versions of the song he is aware of.
>
>The books are out of print, though I believe someone is working
>on an electronic edition.
>
>  
>

On 5/18/05, dick greenhaus wrote:>For what it's worth, The Digital Tradition has at least one example of virtually all the songs Laws catalogued, and is searchable by Laws number. A great weakness of the Laws work is that it's largely a bibliography of unavailable sources.
>Very much agreed, although some are still in print. But having the
DT available has been very useful.One thing that Laws did *not* do very well was indicate which texts
are good and complete and which fragments or corrupt. Yes, he listed
lengths, but that isn't really an indication. That might be a project
for someone, someday.-- 
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Thanks to all for the outstanding information.C.--- BALLAD-L automatic digest system
<[unmask]> wrote:> There are 5 messages totalling 159 lines in this
> issue.
> 
> Topics of the day:
> 
>   1. Laws (5)
> > Date:    Wed, 18 May 2005 06:15:18 -0700
> From:    Cliff Abrams <[unmask]>
> Subject: Laws
> 
> What is the Laws ballad collection? Are the songs
> collected in  books, like Child, and, if so, are
> they
> in print? Thanks.
> 
> C.
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Wed, 18 May 2005 07:21:08 -0700
> From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Laws
> 
> Cliff:
> 
> "Laws" is actually  G. Malcom Laws, Jr., who created
> two important and pioneering indicies: _Native
> American Balladry _ (American Folklore Society,
> 1964; rev. ed. 1975) and _American Balladry from
> British Broadsides_ (AFS, 1957).  I suppose that
> they have been overtaken by the indicies prepared by
> Steve Roud, Bob Waltz and the late Ken Olson, but,
> at the same time, all three respectfully cite the
> Laws numbers.
> 
> Ed
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cliff Abrams <[unmask]>
> Date: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 6:15 am
> Subject: Laws
> 
> > What is the Laws ballad collection? Are the songs
> > collected in  books, like Child, and, if so, are
> they
> > in print? Thanks.
> > 
> > C.
> > 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Wed, 18 May 2005 10:49:32 -0500
> From:    "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Laws
> 
> On 5/18/05, edward cray wrote:
> 
> >Cliff:
> >
> >"Laws" is actually  G. Malcom Laws, Jr., who
> created two important and pioneering indicies:
> _Native American Balladry _ (American Folklore
> Society, 1964; rev. ed. 1975) and _American Balladry
> from British Broadsides_ (AFS, 1957).  I suppose
> that they have been overtaken by the indicies
> prepared by Steve Roud, Bob Waltz and the late Ken
> Olson, but, at the same time, all three respectfully
> cite the Laws numbers.
> 
> FWIW, I would not consider the Ballad Index a
> replacement for Laws, and
> I don't think the others can be so considered,
> either. If life lasts,
> the Ballad Index will someday cite everything he
> cites, plus much he
> does not; Roud's index already cites more. The
> Ballad Index has much
> more history.
> 
> But Laws has organization, grouping songs by type.
> Plus there is
> the introductory material. One may not agree with
> all of it -- I
> don't -- but one has to treat it respectfully.
> 
> To answer some of the initial questions: No, Laws
> does not collect
> song texts. He prints sample stanzas in his
> appendices (the crucial
> part of his work -- that's where the songs are
> listed), and has a
> few texts in the main body. But his work is mostly a
> bibliography,
> listing the versions of the song he is aware of.
> 
> The books are out of print, though I believe someone
> is working
> on an electronic edition.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
> 
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Wed, 18 May 2005 12:31:49 -0400
> From:    dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Laws
> 
> For what it's worth, The Digital Tradition has at
> least one example of 
> virtually all the songs Laws catalogued, and is
> searchable by Laws 
> number. A great weakness of the Laws work is that
> it's largely a 
> bibliography of unavailable sources.
> 
> dick greenhaus
> 
> Robert B. Waltz wrote:
> 
> >On 5/18/05, edward cray wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Cliff:
> >>
> >>"Laws" is actually  G. Malcom Laws, Jr., who
> created two important and pioneering indicies:
> _Native American Balladry _ (American Folklore
> Society, 1964; rev. ed. 1975) and _American Balladry
> from British Broadsides_ (AFS, 1957).  I suppose
> that they have been overtaken by the indicies
> prepared by Steve Roud, Bob Waltz and the late Ken
> Olson, but, at the same time, all three respectfully
> cite the Laws numbers.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >FWIW, I would not consider the Ballad Index a
> replacement for Laws, and
> >I don't think the others can be so considered,
> either. If life lasts,
> >the Ballad Index will someday cite everything he
> cites, plus much he
> >does not; Roud's index already cites more. The
> Ballad Index has much
> >more history.
> >
> >But Laws has organization, grouping songs by type.
> Plus there is
> >the introductory material. One may not agree with
> all of it -- I
> >don't -- but one has to treat it respectfully.
> >
> >To answer some of the initial questions: No, Laws
> does not collect
> >song texts. He prints sample stanzas in his
> appendices (the crucial
> >part of his work -- that's where the songs are
> listed), and has a
> >few texts in the main body. But his work is mostly
> a bibliography,
> >listing the versions of the song he is aware of.
> >
> >The books are out of print, though I believe
> someone is working
> >on an electronic edition.
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Wed, 18 May 2005 11:45:44 -0500
> From:    "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Laws
> 
> On 5/18/05, dick greenhaus wrote:
> 
> >For what it's worth, The Digital Tradition has at
> least one example of virtually all the songs Laws
> catalogued, and is searchable by Laws number. A
> great weakness of the Laws work is that it's largely
> a bibliography of unavailable sources.
> >
> 
> Very much agreed, although some are still in print.
> But having the
> DT available has been very useful.
> 
> One thing that Laws did *not* do very well was
> indicate which texts
> are good and complete and which fragments or
> corrupt. Yes, he listed
> lengths, but that isn't really an indication. That
> might be a project
> for someone, someday.
> 
> -- 
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
> 
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of BALLAD-L Digest - 17 May 2005 to 18 May 2005
> (#2005-198)
>
***************************************************************
> 

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Fred: The Blue Grass Roy cd finally arrived, thanks so much!! Now I will have to listen. The new Charlie Poole cd box looks particularly interesting, with songs not just from Poole but also many others who influenced him, according to the review in the Old-Time Herald (summer 2005), although you would not know this from the ads/notices of the Columbia box coming out. peace, ron 
Hi Ron,
 
Many thanks for the listing, and for taking the trouble to key that lot in.  
I hope the Blue Grass Roy CDR arrived safely by the way. If not, I sent it 
from  the UK by surface mail about a week ago, so it will still be in transit.
 
Just on the score of the earliest musical usage of the term bluegrass, I've  
come across a record called Blue Grass Twist, made by the South Georgia  
Highballers in 1927 (with Chubby Checker ?). Also, a record by a jazz  group called 
the Seminole Syncopators, called Blue Grass Blues. Harry  Cooper, 
cornet/Prince Robinson, clarinet/Unknown alto sax/Graham W Jackson,  piano/Bernard 
Addison, banjo/H. Williams, dms. That one was cut in New York,  April 1924, so I 
doubt there'd be anything earlier on record.
 
Cheers,
 
Fred McCormick.   

Hi!	With more lists to post, it seems I just finish one and another
is due. I hope that I don't wear out my welcome.	JOURNALS	6960819119 - Historical Review Of Berks County, 2002, $4.99 (ends 
May-21-05 22:22:25 PDT)	5199788990 - Folklore, Autumn 1962, 2.99 GBP (ends May-26-05 
12:04:59 PDT)	5199789038 - Folklore, 1963, 2.99 GBP (ends May-26-05 12:05:04 PDT)	5199772511 - Folklore, March 1960, 2.99 GBP (ends May-29-05 11:29:44 
PDT)	BOOKS 	8305667819 - Outwitting the Devil by Perdue, 1987, $4.99 (ends 
May-21-05 17:50:34 PDT)	8305701689 - Ireland's Traditional Crafts by Shaw-Smith, 1986, 
5 GBP (ends May-22-05 01:30:32 PDT)	6532764952 - Folklore of the British Isles by Hull, 1928, 0.99 
GBP (ends May-22-05 13:13:32 PDT)	4550604662 - The Lore of New Mexico by Weigle & White, $9.95 
(ends May-22-05 21:27:26 PDT)	8305920834 - THE FOLKLORE OF HERTFORDSHIRE by Jones-Baker, 1977, 
3.99 GBP (ends May-23-05 03:11:23 PDT)	6532949114 - The Folklore of Maine by Beck, 1957, $9.99 (ends 
May-23-05 09:05:59 PDT)	6961109165 - LORE of FAITH & FOLLY by Cheney, Fife & Brooks, 1974, 
$5 (ends May-24-05 02:36:29 PDT)	4550964417 - SONGSTERS & SAINTS: VOCAL TRADITIONS ON RACE RECORDS 
by Oliver, 1984, $9.50 (ends May-24-05 14:08:37 PDT)	6959156802 - Observations & Reflections on Texas Folklore, 1972, 
$9 (ends May-24-05 19:15:00 PDT)	4551060401 - Pattern in the Material Folk Culture of the Eastern 
United States by Glassie, 1969, $19.95 (ends May-24-05 19:15:19 PDT)	6961614004 - English Fairy Tales by Jacobs, 1911, 3.99 GBP (ends 
May-26-05 14:25:35 PDT)	4551432476 - African Folktales by Abrahams, 1983, $0.01 (ends 
May-26-05 18:15:14 PDT)	8306723485 - Folklore of Guernsey by DeGaris, 1986, 4.99 GBP 
(ends May-29-05 10:21:31 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				DoloresP.S. The songs and songster lists will probably appear tomorrow.
	-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dolores:I for one appreciate all three lists you post.  I even buy now and again from one or another.So thank you -- and do keep posting.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, May 20, 2005 6:44 pm
Subject: Ebay List - 05/20/05 (General Folklore)> Hi!
> 
> 	With more lists to post, it seems I just finish one and another
> is due. I hope that I don't wear out my welcome.
> 
> 	JOURNALS
> 
> 	6960819119 - Historical Review Of Berks County, 2002, $4.99 (ends 
> May-21-05 22:22:25 PDT)
> 
> 	5199788990 - Folklore, Autumn 1962, 2.99 GBP (ends May-26-05 
> 12:04:59 PDT)
> 
> 	5199789038 - Folklore, 1963, 2.99 GBP (ends May-26-05 12:05:04 PDT)
> 
> 	5199772511 - Folklore, March 1960, 2.99 GBP (ends May-29-05 
> 11:29:44 
> PDT)
> 
> 	BOOKS 
> 
> 	8305667819 - Outwitting the Devil by Perdue, 1987, $4.99 (ends 
> May-21-05 17:50:34 PDT)
> 
> 	8305701689 - Ireland's Traditional Crafts by Shaw-Smith, 1986, 
> 5 GBP (ends May-22-05 01:30:32 PDT)
> 
> 	6532764952 - Folklore of the British Isles by Hull, 1928, 0.99 
> GBP (ends May-22-05 13:13:32 PDT)
> 
> 	4550604662 - The Lore of New Mexico by Weigle & White, $9.95 
> (ends May-22-05 21:27:26 PDT)
> 
> 	8305920834 - THE FOLKLORE OF HERTFORDSHIRE by Jones-Baker, 1977, 
> 3.99 GBP (ends May-23-05 03:11:23 PDT)
> 
> 	6532949114 - The Folklore of Maine by Beck, 1957, $9.99 (ends 
> May-23-05 09:05:59 PDT)
> 
> 	6961109165 - LORE of FAITH & FOLLY by Cheney, Fife & Brooks, 1974, 
> $5 (ends May-24-05 02:36:29 PDT)
> 
> 	4550964417 - SONGSTERS & SAINTS: VOCAL TRADITIONS ON RACE RECORDS 
> by Oliver, 1984, $9.50 (ends May-24-05 14:08:37 PDT)
> 
> 	6959156802 - Observations & Reflections on Texas Folklore, 1972, 
> $9 (ends May-24-05 19:15:00 PDT)
> 
> 	4551060401 - Pattern in the Material Folk Culture of the Eastern 
> United States by Glassie, 1969, $19.95 (ends May-24-05 19:15:19 PDT)
> 
> 	6961614004 - English Fairy Tales by Jacobs, 1911, 3.99 GBP (ends 
> May-26-05 14:25:35 PDT)
> 
> 	4551432476 - African Folktales by Abrahams, 1983, $0.01 (ends 
> May-26-05 18:15:14 PDT)
> 
> 	8306723485 - Folklore of Guernsey by DeGaris, 1986, 4.99 GBP 
> (ends May-29-05 10:21:31 PDT)
> 
>                        	Happy Bidding!
>                        	Dolores
> 
> P.S. The songs and songster lists will probably appear tomorrow.
> 	
> 
> -- 
> Dolores Nichols         	| 
> D&D Data                	| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
> Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
> 	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?
> 

On 5/21/05, edward cray wrote:>Dolores:
>
>I for one appreciate all three lists you post.  I even buy now and again from one or another.
>
>So thank you -- and do keep posting.I'll second this. It's a service you do for us. If anyone *really*
doesn't like it, they can always filter posts to Ballad-L with
Ebay in the title!-- 
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I SECOND THAT APPRECIATION.
Thanks for your work, Dolores, on all our behalf.Kate----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 05/20/05 (General Folklore)> Dolores:
>
> I for one appreciate all three lists you post.  I even buy now and again 
> from one or another.
>
> So thank you -- and do keep posting.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
> Date: Friday, May 20, 2005 6:44 pm
> Subject: Ebay List - 05/20/05 (General Folklore)
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> With more lists to post, it seems I just finish one and another
>> is due. I hope that I don't wear out my welcome.
>>
>> JOURNALS
>>
>> 6960819119 - Historical Review Of Berks County, 2002, $4.99 (ends
>> May-21-05 22:22:25 PDT)
>>
>> 5199788990 - Folklore, Autumn 1962, 2.99 GBP (ends May-26-05
>> 12:04:59 PDT)
>>
>> 5199789038 - Folklore, 1963, 2.99 GBP (ends May-26-05 12:05:04 PDT)
>>
>> 5199772511 - Folklore, March 1960, 2.99 GBP (ends May-29-05
>> 11:29:44
>> PDT)
>>
>> BOOKS
>>
>> 8305667819 - Outwitting the Devil by Perdue, 1987, $4.99 (ends
>> May-21-05 17:50:34 PDT)
>>
>> 8305701689 - Ireland's Traditional Crafts by Shaw-Smith, 1986,
>> 5 GBP (ends May-22-05 01:30:32 PDT)
>>
>> 6532764952 - Folklore of the British Isles by Hull, 1928, 0.99
>> GBP (ends May-22-05 13:13:32 PDT)
>>
>> 4550604662 - The Lore of New Mexico by Weigle & White, $9.95
>> (ends May-22-05 21:27:26 PDT)
>>
>> 8305920834 - THE FOLKLORE OF HERTFORDSHIRE by Jones-Baker, 1977,
>> 3.99 GBP (ends May-23-05 03:11:23 PDT)
>>
>> 6532949114 - The Folklore of Maine by Beck, 1957, $9.99 (ends
>> May-23-05 09:05:59 PDT)
>>
>> 6961109165 - LORE of FAITH & FOLLY by Cheney, Fife & Brooks, 1974,
>> $5 (ends May-24-05 02:36:29 PDT)
>>
>> 4550964417 - SONGSTERS & SAINTS: VOCAL TRADITIONS ON RACE RECORDS
>> by Oliver, 1984, $9.50 (ends May-24-05 14:08:37 PDT)
>>
>> 6959156802 - Observations & Reflections on Texas Folklore, 1972,
>> $9 (ends May-24-05 19:15:00 PDT)
>>
>> 4551060401 - Pattern in the Material Folk Culture of the Eastern
>> United States by Glassie, 1969, $19.95 (ends May-24-05 19:15:19 PDT)
>>
>> 6961614004 - English Fairy Tales by Jacobs, 1911, 3.99 GBP (ends
>> May-26-05 14:25:35 PDT)
>>
>> 4551432476 - African Folktales by Abrahams, 1983, $0.01 (ends
>> May-26-05 18:15:14 PDT)
>>
>> 8306723485 - Folklore of Guernsey by DeGaris, 1986, 4.99 GBP
>> (ends May-29-05 10:21:31 PDT)
>>
>>                        Happy Bidding!
>>                        Dolores
>>
>> P.S. The songs and songster lists will probably appear tomorrow.
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Dolores Nichols         |
>> D&D Data                | Voice : (703) 938-4564
>> Disclaimer: from here - None | Email:     <[unmask]>
>> --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?
>>
> 

Hi!	There is not much in this category - just another example of the
variability in Ebay listings. 	The last of the weekly lists will appear late today.	SONGSTERS & BROADSIDES	6533520825 - TONY PASTOR'S COMPLETE BUDGET OF COMIC SONGS (inc. 
2 songsters - TONY PASTOR'S UNION SONGSTER & Tony Pastor's Great 
Sensation Songster), 1864, $99 (ends May-22-05 19:00:41 PDT)	7323479469 - 3 songsters from 1890's, $9.99 (ends May-23-05 11:30:28 
PDT)	3975389611 - The Grant Campaign Songster, 1868, $49.95 (ends 
May-23-05 18:04:35 PDT)	6533331541 - The Prohibition Songster, 1885, $9.99 (ends 
May-24-05 13:21:49 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Good God, yes! But I feel behind here. Have the posts been threatened? I've 
bought some great items thanks to these posts.Paul GaronAt 11:29 AM 5/21/2005, you wrote:
> >Dolores:
> >
> >I for one appreciate all three lists you post.  I even buy now and again 
> from one or another.
> >
> >So thank you -- and do keep posting.
>
>I'll second this. It's a service you do for us. If anyone *really*
>doesn't like it, they can always filter posts to Ballad-L with
>EbayPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
http://www.beasleybooks.com 

Dolores,
Although I do my own regular scans of Ebay each night I always find extra
items in your lists that I've missed. You provide an excellent service.
Keep up the good work. I've picked up several gems thanks to your efforts.
SteveG

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dolores Nichols" <[unmask]>> With more lists to post, it seems I just finish one and another
> is due. I hope that I don't wear out my welcome.
> 
Absolutely not.
Norm Cohen

Hi!	This is it for this week. It is a bit early because of some
short term auctions that end tomorrow. 	MISCELLANEOUS	6961287104 - Newfoundland Stories & Ballads, summer/autumn 1964,
$7 (end May-22-05 17:43:08 PDT)	4730573931 - Virginia Traditions - Non-Blues Secular Black Music, 
CD, 1995, $12.83 (ends May-24-05 14:41:33 PDT)	4730794725 -  OLD-COUNTRY MUSIC IN A NEW LAND: FOLK MUSIC OF 
IMMIGRANTS FROM EUROPE AND THE NEAR EAST, LP, 1977, $9.99 (ends 
May-24-05 20:22:49 PDT)	SONGBOOKS, ETC.	4551018071 - Songs of Newfoundland Outports by Peacock, volumes 1
& 2, 1965, $35 (ends May-22-05 17:25:39 PDT)	4551020066 - Folk Ballads and Songs of The Lower Labrador Coast by
Leach, 1965, $20 (ends May-22-05 17:31:56 PDT)	7323612920 - Penguin Book of English Folk Songs by Williams & 
Lloyd, 1975, 1.50 GBP (ends May-23-05 23:54:58 PDT)	6533389725 - Folk Songs Of The South by Cox, 1925, $2.99 (ends 
May-24-05 15:30:17 PDT)	4551053335 - Norwegian Emigrant Songs and Ballads by Blegen & 
Ruud, 1979 reprint, $9.99 (ends May-24-05 18:59:44 PDT)	4551054875 - Words to Bittersweet Ballads and Songs by Carter, 
3 volumes, $75 (ends May-24-05 19:03:09 PDT)	7324084015 - Twenty Kentucky Mountain Songs by Wyman & Brockway, 
1920, $19.99 (ends May-24-05 19:53:17 PDT)	6961444482 - The Book of Scottish Ballads by Whitelaw, 1875, 
0.99 GBP (ends May-25-05 12:56:36 PDT)	6534131369 - English Folk-Songs from the Southern Applachians by 
Sharp, 1966, $20.50 (ends May-27-05 07:50:47 PDT)	4731740779 - The Leadbelly Songbook, 1962, $24.99 (ends 
May-27-05 10:42:52 PDT)	8306485093 - Irish Ballads and Songs of the Sea by Healy, 1971, 
3.80 GBP (ends May-28-05 05:36:35 PDT)	8306670430 - For Gawdsake Don't Take Me, More Songs and Ballads of 
World War II and National Service Life by Page, 1977, 2 GBP (ends 
May-29-05 06:01:55 PDT)	6961535068 - John Clare and the Folk Tradition by Deacon, 1983, 
25 GBP (ends May-29-05 07:49:44 PDT)	5199700329 - The Oxford Book of Ballads by Quiller-Couch, 1920, 
1.99 GBP (ends May-29-05 08:13:14 PDT)	8306791439 - NAVAL SONGS AND OTHER SONGS AND BALLADS OF SEALIFE
by Sharp, 5 GBP (ends May-29-05 13:55:58 PDT)	7324551504 - STRIKE THE BELL by Palmer, 1978, 4.99 GBP (ends 
May-29-05 15:27:50 PDT)	7517963001 - American Folksong by Guthrie, 1947, $125 (ends 
May-31-05 06:39:57 PDT)				Happy Bidding!
				Dolores-- 
Dolores Nichols 		| 
D&D Data			| Voice :	(703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None	| Email:     <[unmask]>
	--- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dolores Nichols" <[unmask]><<4730794725 -  OLD-COUNTRY MUSIC IN A NEW LAND: FOLK MUSIC OF
IMMIGRANTS FROM EUROPE AND THE NEAR EAST, LP, 1977, $9.99 (ends
May-24-05 20:22:49 PDT)>>I commend this to all who may not be familiar with it -- delightful music.
I'd bid myself, but I already have one.Peace,
Paul

Folks:Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint of Cecil Sharp and Maud Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians (eBay no.  6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for this rarely offered book in any edition or condition (this is ex libris).  I hope "Manowar," the current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l subscriber.Ed

At 09:48 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Folks:
>Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint of Cecil Sharp and Maud 
>Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians (eBay 
>no.  6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for this rarely offered 
>book in any edition or condition (this is ex libris).  I hope "Manowar," 
>the current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l subscriber.
>EdThis edition does come up on Ebay every 3 months or so it seems to me, and 
it's common for bidding to hover at a $20 level early in the 
auction.  These books usually sell for about $100, and this auction has 
almost 5 days left.  I think you can safely assume the price of this one 
will wind up being at least $75.  Anything less than $75 for a decent copy 
is a bargain these days.  I always watch them with interest.  I paid $100 
for my copy 6 years ago, and the going price seems to have remained around 
that level.
Lisa Johnsonfrom Lisa ( aka: Strumelia Harmonia )
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Harmonia's Big B. / http://www.harmonias.com
Fiddle,Banjo,Mando, & OldTime music T-shirts.
and  "My Life...A Girls story of Musical Corruption"
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a copy he
was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy, but
his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it didn't
sell. I wonder what my earlier printing, the 2-volume
version, is worth today. Ye gads!
     Sandy (in Connecticut)--- "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]> wrote:> At 09:48 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> >Folks:
> >Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint
> of Cecil Sharp and Maud 
> >Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians
> (eBay 
> >no.  6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for
> this rarely offered 
> >book in any edition or condition (this is ex
> libris).  I hope "Manowar," 
> >the current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l
> subscriber.
> >Ed
> 
> This edition does come up on Ebay every 3 months or
> so it seems to me, and 
> it's common for bidding to hover at a $20 level
> early in the 
> auction.  These books usually sell for about $100,
> and this auction has 
> almost 5 days left.  I think you can safely assume
> the price of this one 
> will wind up being at least $75.  Anything less than
> $75 for a decent copy 
> is a bargain these days.  I always watch them with
> interest.  I paid $100 
> for my copy 6 years ago, and the going price seems
> to have remained around 
> that level.
> Lisa Johnson
> 
> 
> 
> from Lisa ( aka: Strumelia Harmonia )
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> Harmonia's Big B. / http://www.harmonias.com
> Fiddle,Banjo,Mando, & OldTime music T-shirts.
> and  "My Life...A Girls story of Musical Corruption"
> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
> 

I'm "man_at_sea", and yes, I'm a Ballad-L person. I'm Archivist/Librarian 
for the Vancouver Folk Song Society and its associated Ballad Study Group.Jon Bartlett----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: Sharp-Karpeles> Folks:
>
> Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint of Cecil Sharp and Maud 
> Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians (eBay no. 
> 6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for this rarely offered book in 
> any edition or condition (this is ex libris).  I hope "Manowar," the 
> current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l subscriber.
>
> Ed 

At 12:50 PM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm "man_at_sea", and yes, I'm a Ballad-L person. I'm Archivist/Librarian 
>for the Vancouver Folk Song Society and its associated Ballad Study Group.
>
>Jon BartlettAHA!, so YOU'RE "Man-at-Sea"!
(or should I say "Ahoy!"?   Or "Avast!", even?)
Lisa
(Ahrggh! ?) 

At 11:47 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a copy he
>was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
>earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy, but
>his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it didn't
>sell.Well you can be sure he didn't PAY $600 for it.  (and it's doubtful that 
anyone else will).
Lisa
(Hey, I've got a copy of Sharp's "Eighty English Folk Songs" that I'm 
willing to let go for a mere $300!.....and.... any takers for Jean Thomas' 
"Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky" -a real steal at $475!)
;)

There are several copies of the Sharp/Karpeles edition listed on second-hand 
book databases, ranging from £200 to £450, so Ben's $600 is not too far off 
the mark - but Eighty English FS only fetches £10 - £25, so don't bank on 
making your fortune Lisa!.
I remember buying the Karpeles edition in about 1970 - it was still in 
print, listed as £5, but when it arrived in the shop it was actually £12 - a 
substantial sum for an unemployed layabout, and it took all my employed 
friends clubbing together to raise the difference for a joint birthday 
present for me to get it. I wish I had friends like that now.
Steve Roud----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles> At 11:47 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>>Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a copy he
>>was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
>>earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy, but
>>his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it didn't
>>sell.
>
> Well you can be sure he didn't PAY $600 for it.  (and it's doubtful that 
> anyone else will).
> Lisa
> (Hey, I've got a copy of Sharp's "Eighty English Folk Songs" that I'm 
> willing to let go for a mere $300!.....and.... any takers for Jean Thomas' 
> "Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky" -a real steal at $475!)
> ;)
> 

Had Sandy made the purchase at that time and place, he could have had this tome for $480, as Ben was offering a 20% discount to festival goers.Antiquarian book sellers usually purchase books for 40% of what they are planning to charge, unlike antiques dealers who usully try for 50%.  But book dealers customarily allow a 20% break for those in the trade, whereas antiques dealers usually only do 10%.I have known Ben for over thirty years.    He is both fair and honest in his dealings and is highly knowledgeable in the field of books, especially those in the folksong genre.  Ben was also commissioned to appraise Ken Goldstein's personal library.And FWIW, "ex libris" books do not  bring premium prices unless the owner was a recognised authority on the subject.--  Tom> From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
> Date: 2005/05/22 Sun PM 04:02:39 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles
> 
> At 11:47 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> >Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a copy he
> >was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
> >earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy, but
> >his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it didn't
> >sell.
> 
> Well you can be sure he didn't PAY $600 for it.  (and it's doubtful that 
> anyone else will).
> Lisa
> (Hey, I've got a copy of Sharp's "Eighty English Folk Songs" that I'm 
> willing to let go for a mere $300!.....and.... any takers for Jean Thomas' 
> "Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky" -a real steal at $475!)
> ;)
> Tom Hall  --  Master Wordworker  
and Intellectual Handyman

I wasn't knocking Ben! I know he's a good guy, an
honest dealer, and plays a pretty darned good backup
guitar to the Indian Neck banjo & fiddle jammers. I've
always bought items from him at Indian Neck, and hope
to get by his shop one day. 
     I was just stunned by the apparent increase in
the value of a book I've had for many years (in the
earlier edition). Even with Ben's 20% off, that's a
hellova price to have to pay for a collection every
one of us ought to have readily available. I suppose
many of you are near decent University libraries; I am
not. I can get things through inter-library loan, but
Sharp is a book one needs to go to frequently, like
Laws, Randolph, Brewster, etc., and those libraries do
want to get their books back after a couple of weeks.
     Wouldn't it make sense for Oxford to reprint it? 
     Sandy--- Tom Hall <[unmask]> wrote:> Had Sandy made the purchase at that time and place,
> he could have had this tome for $480, as Ben was
> offering a 20% discount to festival goers.
> 
> Antiquarian book sellers usually purchase books for
> 40% of what they are planning to charge, unlike
> antiques dealers who usully try for 50%.  But book
> dealers customarily allow a 20% break for those in
> the trade, whereas antiques dealers usually only do
> 10%.
> 
> I have known Ben for over thirty years.    He is
> both fair and honest in his dealings and is highly
> knowledgeable in the field of books, especially
> those in the folksong genre.  Ben was also
> commissioned to appraise Ken Goldstein's personal
> library.
> 
> And FWIW, "ex libris" books do not  bring premium
> prices unless the owner was a recognised authority
> on the subject.
> 
> --  Tom
> 
> 
> > From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
> > Date: 2005/05/22 Sun PM 04:02:39 CDT
> > To: [unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles
> > 
> > At 11:47 AM 5/22/2005 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Ben, at the Country bookshop in Vermont, had a
> copy he
> > >was offering to sell at the Indian Neck Festival
> > >earlier this month. It wasn't an ex-library copy,
> but
> > >his ASKING price was $600! I might add that it
> didn't
> > >sell.
> > 
> > Well you can be sure he didn't PAY $600 for it. 
> (and it's doubtful that 
> > anyone else will).
> > Lisa
> > (Hey, I've got a copy of Sharp's "Eighty English
> Folk Songs" that I'm 
> > willing to let go for a mere $300!.....and.... any
> takers for Jean Thomas' 
> > "Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky" -a
> real steal at $475!)
> > ;)
> > 
> 
> Tom Hall  --  Master Wordworker  
> and Intellectual Handyman
> 

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Jon:I am sorry to have sic'ed the dogs upon you.Good luck on your bidding.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Bartlett <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:50 pm
Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles> I'm "man_at_sea", and yes, I'm a Ballad-L person. I'm 
> Archivist/Librarian 
> for the Vancouver Folk Song Society and its associated Ballad Study 
> Group.
> Jon Bartlett
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:48 AM
> Subject: Sharp-Karpeles
> 
> 
> > Folks:
> >
> > Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint of Cecil Sharp 
> and Maud 
> > Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians (eBay no. 
> > 6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for this rarely 
> offered book in 
> > any edition or condition (this is ex libris).  I hope "Manowar," 
> the 
> > current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l subscriber.
> >
> > Ed 
> 

Cheers, Ed - but my cover is now blown!Jon----- Original Message ----- 
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles> Jon:
> 
> I am sorry to have sic'ed the dogs upon you.
> 
> Good luck on your bidding.
> 
> Ed
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jon Bartlett <[unmask]>
> Date: Sunday, May 22, 2005 12:50 pm
> Subject: Re: Sharp-Karpeles
> 
>> I'm "man_at_sea", and yes, I'm a Ballad-L person. I'm 
>> Archivist/Librarian 
>> for the Vancouver Folk Song Society and its associated Ballad Study 
>> Group.
>> Jon Bartlett
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
>> To: <[unmask]>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:48 AM
>> Subject: Sharp-Karpeles
>> 
>> 
>> > Folks:
>> >
>> > Dolores posted the 1966 two-volume in one reprint of Cecil Sharp 
>> and Maud 
>> > Karpeles' English FS from the Southern Appalachians (eBay no. 
>> > 6534131369).  The bidding is low, very low for this rarely 
>> offered book in 
>> > any edition or condition (this is ex libris).  I hope "Manowar," 
>> the 
>> > current high bidder, is not  a ballad-l subscriber.
>> >
>> > Ed 
>>

Once again yet--
If several folks are interested in purchasing this (or any other) book, 
let me know. As a dealer, I can often get a substantial discount, and 
I'm willing to pass a good part of this along to them as wants it.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO Music
[unmask]Thomas Stern wrote:> I just noticed the following publication
> Lucy Anne Hurston & the Estate of Zora Neale Hurston:
>    Speak, So You Can Speak Again-The Life of Zora Neale Hurston
>    (2004, Doubleday)
> It contains a CD of Hurston interviewed in 1943, and a selection of 
> songs sung by her in 1939.  There are also
> numerous reproductions of various artifacts (postcards, letters, 
> manuscripts, magazine articles, published stories etc.)
>
> Best wishes, Thomas.
>
>
>
>  

I am considering indexing some 78's.  I have one by Richard Hayward which 
has no composer attribution.
Does anyone have any information about this (including the date Hayward may 
have recorded it)?Down in Glasloch [Glaslough]
Rex 15016B
Sung by Richard Hayward with Roy Robertson's orchestra.Oh, were I down in Glasloch where the birds sing so blithely
I would walk there with my true love and she by my side
And in all things she might ask me I would gladly do her favor
For there's no love like my true love in all Monaghan wide.Oh, were I down in Glasloch it's my heart would be singing
And the words in my mouth would be joyful and gay
For I'd know I'd be at home in the small fields of that country
And the charmer that is in it would be mine night and day.Sure if I were a fine clerk and could write a fair letter
I would write there to my true love and she'd understand
For if I were a wild bird I would fly to yon arbor
And I'd perch there on her shoulder and eat from her hand.But it's here in this strange land with the wild seas between us
I must wander in exile and think long and sigh
For though Mary she is faithful and will wait my returning
When I think on lovely Glasloch I am ready to die.I'd appreciate any help anyone can give.  Also, please let me know if I can 
quote you in a Ballad Index citation.
ThanksBen Schwartz 

Much of the text given here is composed of Northern Irish commonplaces.
Gale Huntington's version of Songs of the People contains a whole family of
related songs tied in with versions of the Cuckoo. It seems to resemble
most closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon Clody'(Bunclody),
particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was a bird stanza, but there
are other lines in common with oral versions as well.
I am at the moment working on a master titles index for folk songs
collected in England. This can be difficult enough at times classifying
those songs that for several centuries have become so varied in structure
and have crossed over with other songs; I'm glad my remit doesn't cover
Northern Irish songs and to a similar extent some American ones.
SteveG

One more 78 [last one for now, I promise]
As with "Down in Glasloch" I think this should be out for now unless someone 
can identify it.
Like Hayward, the McNulty's recorded traditional as well as non-traditional 
material.The Exile of Cork
The McNulty Family
Copley 9-228-B
(1953-1957)
No composer attributionI have wandered in exile midst cold-hearted strangers
Far from my home by the beautiful Lee
I have struggled in vain 'neath all sorrow and dangers
I have braved every fate e'er on land or on sea.Through Columbia's wild forest or India's straight towers[?]
To that great foreign river whose sands are all gold
Yet I long for her still though[?] the birds and the flowers
I have loved her and will 'til my heart it grows cold.I have come back again but she's not in her bower
Where the river flows fast with its calm briny wave
I have called her in vain round the ivy-clad towers
But sweet in the scatter[?] o'er-shadows her grave.But I'll rest with her soon with the shamrock above me
Never more from my own native hearth will I roam
'Til I'm laid 'neath the clay with the dear one that loved me
And in heaven she'll welcome her wanderer home.The only hits I find are on the first line: is this what Peta Webb recorded 
in 1973 as "I Have Wandered in Exile"?Ben Schwartz
 

On Monday, May 23, 2005 2:02 PM Steve Gardham wrote> .... It seems to resemble
> most closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon Clody'(Bunclody),
> particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was a bird stanza, but 
> there
> are other lines in common with oral versions as well.Thanks for that.  Looking at Sparling "The Streams of Bunclody" there almost 
all the verses there excluding "the cuckoo" are modified here.Ben Schwartz 

Bennett,I took the liberty of imposing on a list0buddy from pre-war-blues, Howard
Rye. He is by profession a discographer, and regards such things as a
challeng here is his response to me:>>> Down in Glasloch [Glaslough]
>>> Rex 15016B
>>> Sung by Richard Hayward with Roy Robertson's orchestra.
>> 
>> It's the recording, not the song itself, that is under question. The song
>> itself is well known to people on the list.
> 
> 
> Off hand, I have to admit I've no idea what a Rex 15000 is, though no doubt
> I can find out. They don't appear to be British. My identification bump is
> screaming "Australian", but is often wrong. English Rex's run from 8000
> issued in 1933 to 10230 in 1946 and then just a few more until the series
> was killed in 1948, and a 60000 series from the 40s which seems to have sold
> about 2 copies of each issue judging from how common they ain't. But there
> were Rex series throughout the former empire.
> 
> This would be a lot easier with full details of the disc, both sides, and
> above all matrix numbers. Can these be procured?
> 
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> [unmask]So there you have it: Howard, as best I can tell, is the best there is at
figuring out 78 conundrums. For the nonce, why don't you send through me,
and I will ask Howard if it's okay to communicate directly with him. You
never know how busy he is, answering queries like this all day, and he's
been known to be curmudgeonly, something I wouldn't wish on anybody I had
the slightest regard for...Andy Cohen

On Monday, May 23, 2005 3:17 PM Andy wrote, forwarding a note from Howard 
Rye
>>>> Sung by Richard Hayward with Roy Robertson's orchestra.
>>>
>>> It's the recording, not the song itself, that is under question. The 
>>> song
>>> itself is well known to people on the list.
>>
>>
>> Off hand, I have to admit I've no idea what a Rex 15000 is, though no 
>> doubt
>> I can find out. They don't appear to be British. My identification bump 
>> is
>> screaming "Australian", but is often wrong. English Rex's run from 8000
>> issued in 1933 to 10230 in 1946 and then just a few more until the series
>> was killed in 1948, and a 60000 series from the 40s which seems to have 
>> sold
>> about 2 copies of each issue judging from how common they ain't. But 
>> there
>> were Rex series throughout the former empire.
>>
>> This would be a lot easier with full details of the disc, both sides, and
>> above all matrix numbers. Can these be procured?
>>
Thanks for your help.
I bought this record in St John's, Newfoundland sometime between Oct 1955 
and April 1957.
The label says "Made in England" I am ignorant about this stuff--matrix numbers, etc., but this is what I 
seeSide A
Time 2.37
REX 15016
LITTLE BRIGIT FLYNN (French)
COUNTY MAYO FRAGMENT (Traditional)
RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy 
Robertson (DR.11812)
Scratched into the record itself  "N|PLT"(the | could be a sub-1),"U", a 
possibly reversed 1,  and "DR 11812-2"Side B
Time 3.02
DOWN IN GLASLOCH(arr. Hayward)
RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy 
Robertson (DR.11826)
Scratched into the record itself "NPLT", "OA",  "U", a reversed "2" 
overstamped on "1",  and "DR11826-1"The labels are red with REX in white and black acanthus leaf designs with 
the statement
"This copyright record made by patented process may not be sold below fixed 
price nor used for public performance or broadcasting."Thanks for your help.
Ben Schwartz 

Bennett,Those numbers that appear to be scratched into the record near its center
are actually molded in. They are a remnant of the original positive master
on which the music was first impressed by the player, and they correspond to
the numbers in the A & R guy's notebook.  Those are the matrix numbers.You will find serial numbers for the A and B sides on the respective sides
on the label. Serial numbers will be stable for the run, but can change, be
added to or replaced altogether as companies are acquired by one another, or
pieces are collated into long play or reissued in one form or another.
Another thing that may happen is that a company, say Victor, will engender a
cheap line, in this case Bluebird, and both companies will issue the same
numbers in parallel or in sequence.Andy Cohen

Bennett and all,Herewith is the exchange between me and Howard.  Now this guy is the best,
IMHO, at figuring out where a given record comes from- you can see it in his
response- and offers his services directly. I would be sparing, and try to
learn how he does what he does as much as possible, to avoid bothering him.
On the other hand, when you really don't know how to find the answer, he's
the go-to guy.For you non-blues types out there, Howard stepped in to the breach and
brought the fourth edition of +Blues and Gospel Records+ to publication, in
the process expanding its reach (1902-1942) in both directions (1890-1943).In the exchange that follows, the red is Bennett, the green is me and the
blue is Howard.Andy Cohen----------
> From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:49:13 +0100
> To: Andy <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: The Rest of the Story
> 
> on 23/5/05 22:01, Andy at [unmask] wrote:
> 
>> Bennett Schwarz, who I believe is a Brit, and is certainly a ballad scholar
>> (Ballad-L, remember), responds to your query about matrix #s thus:
>> 
>>> Thanks for your help.
>>> I bought this record in St John's, Newfoundland sometime between Oct 1955
>>> and April 1957.
>>> The label says "Made in England"
>>> 
>>> I am ignorant about this stuff--matrix numbers, etc., but this is what I
>>> see
>>> 
>>> Side A
>>> Time 2.37
>>> REX 15016
>>> LITTLE BRIGIT FLYNN (French)
>>> COUNTY MAYO FRAGMENT (Traditional)
>>> RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy
>>> Robertson (DR.11812)
>>> Scratched into the record itself  "N|PLT"(the | could be a sub-1),"U", a
>>> possibly reversed 1,  and "DR 11812-2"
>>> 
>>> Side B
>>> Time 3.02
>>> DOWN IN GLASLOCH(arr. Hayward)
>>> RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy
>>> Robertson (DR.11826)
>>> Scratched into the record itself "NPLT", "OA",  "U", a reversed "2"
>>> overstamped on "1",  and "DR11826-1"
>>> 
>>> The labels are red with REX in white and black acanthus leaf designs with
>>> the statement
>>> "This copyright record made by patented process may not be sold below fixed
>>> price nor used for public performance or broadcasting."
>>> 
>>> Thanks for your help.
>>> Ben Schwartz 
>> 
>> Now, I don't know if there is anything like DG&R for Ballads, but I suppose
>> there ought to be. Paul Stamler also belongs to Ballad-L, and is much more
>> competent than I to instruct those folks in the vagaries of the 78 world.
>> 
>> I don't want to be bothering you all the time with such queries, and I
>> know your specialty is not ballads. So, should I let these folks get in
>> touch with you directly, or is it better to go through me, and keep a layer
>> of distance between them and your esteemed self?
> 
> I'm quite content to deal with them directly or through you. Please
> yourself!
> 
> These are London-recorded masters (or at least masters in the London series)
> dating from the second half of 1947 (probably December). Looks like two
> sessions were involved. Though this matrix series was inherited from Rex
> because Decca transferred operations to their studio when they took over
> Crystalate in January 1937, the 'D' was suppressed on normal popular Rex
> issues (or rather was added to Decca issues), so its appearance here is a
> mite surprising, but then no one seems to have heard of the 15000 series
> before. My bump - and remember it was completely wrong about Australia - now
> asks whether this is a series pressed for Irish sale.
> 
> I dare say I can recover the exact recording date(s), but this will require
> either a visit to the National Sound Archive or a letter to Brian Rust. (If
> it comes to the latter I'll put them in touch!) I have added this to the
> pile for my next NSA visit. If we're lucky they may have Rex catalogues.
> 
> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
> [unmask]
> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
> 
> 

Two points about Rex.1.] They did issue a "U" series of Irish music but the label should be 
green with the same design as the regular issues.2.] There was another Rex label in the UK, a budget line owned(?) and 
distributed by Woolworths.Andy wrote:>Bennett,
>
>Those numbers that appear to be scratched into the record near its center
>are actually molded in. They are a remnant of the original positive master
>on which the music was first impressed by the player, and they correspond to
>the numbers in the A & R guy's notebook.  Those are the matrix numbers.
>
>You will find serial numbers for the A and B sides on the respective sides
>on the label. Serial numbers will be stable for the run, but can change, be
>added to or replaced altogether as companies are acquired by one another, or
>pieces are collated into long play or reissued in one form or another.
>Another thing that may happen is that a company, say Victor, will engender a
>cheap line, in this case Bluebird, and both companies will issue the same
>numbers in parallel or in sequence.
>
>Andy Cohen
>
>  
>

Andy,
Thanks for the education.Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Bennett,
>
> Those numbers that appear to be scratched into the record near its center
> are actually molded in. They are a remnant of the original positive master
> on which the music was first impressed by the player, and they correspond 
> to
> the numbers in the A & R guy's notebook.  Those are the matrix numbers.
>
> You will find serial numbers for the A and B sides on the respective sides
> on the label. Serial numbers will be stable for the run, but can change, 
> be
> added to or replaced altogether as companies are acquired by one another, 
> or
> pieces are collated into long play or reissued in one form or another.
> Another thing that may happen is that a company, say Victor, will engender 
> a
> cheap line, in this case Bluebird, and both companies will issue the same
> numbers in parallel or in sequence.
>
> Andy Cohen
> 

Please pass on my thanks.  I appreciate the help--and the dating is a real 
help.
I  didn't expect this much work and would hope that only minimal, if any, 
additional work is forthcoming.
The 1947 date is a big help.  Thanks again.  I would like to be able to 
credit Howard in my notes to this entry.BenNot a Brit, but a Brooklyn US character now in the wilds (raccoon just 
walked past my window) of north west New Jersey.----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andy" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 6:10 PM
Subject: FW: The Rest of the Story> Bennett and all,
>
> Herewith is the exchange between me and Howard.  Now this guy is the best,
> IMHO, at figuring out where a given record comes from- you can see it in 
> his
> response- and offers his services directly. I would be sparing, and try to
> learn how he does what he does as much as possible, to avoid bothering 
> him.
> On the other hand, when you really don't know how to find the answer, he's
> the go-to guy.
>
> For you non-blues types out there, Howard stepped in to the breach and
> brought the fourth edition of +Blues and Gospel Records+ to publication, 
> in
> the process expanding its reach (1902-1942) in both directions 
> (1890-1943).
>
> In the exchange that follows, the red is Bennett, the green is me and the
> blue is Howard.
>
> Andy Cohen
>
>
> ----------
>> From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
>> Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:49:13 +0100
>> To: Andy <[unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: The Rest of the Story
>>
>> on 23/5/05 22:01, Andy at [unmask] wrote:
>>
>>> Bennett Schwarz, who I believe is a Brit, and is certainly a ballad 
>>> scholar
>>> (Ballad-L, remember), responds to your query about matrix #s thus:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for your help.
>>>> I bought this record in St John's, Newfoundland sometime between Oct 
>>>> 1955
>>>> and April 1957.
>>>> The label says "Made in England"
>>>>
>>>> I am ignorant about this stuff--matrix numbers, etc., but this is what 
>>>> I
>>>> see
>>>>
>>>> Side A
>>>> Time 2.37
>>>> REX 15016
>>>> LITTLE BRIGIT FLYNN (French)
>>>> COUNTY MAYO FRAGMENT (Traditional)
>>>> RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy
>>>> Robertson (DR.11812)
>>>> Scratched into the record itself  "N|PLT"(the | could be a sub-1),"U", 
>>>> a
>>>> possibly reversed 1,  and "DR 11812-2"
>>>>
>>>> Side B
>>>> Time 3.02
>>>> DOWN IN GLASLOCH(arr. Hayward)
>>>> RICHARD HAYWARD Vocal, with Orchestral accompaniment directed by Roy
>>>> Robertson (DR.11826)
>>>> Scratched into the record itself "NPLT", "OA",  "U", a reversed "2"
>>>> overstamped on "1",  and "DR11826-1"
>>>>
>>>> The labels are red with REX in white and black acanthus leaf designs 
>>>> with
>>>> the statement
>>>> "This copyright record made by patented process may not be sold below 
>>>> fixed
>>>> price nor used for public performance or broadcasting."
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your help.
>>>> Ben Schwartz
>>>
>>> Now, I don't know if there is anything like DG&R for Ballads, but I 
>>> suppose
>>> there ought to be. Paul Stamler also belongs to Ballad-L, and is much 
>>> more
>>> competent than I to instruct those folks in the vagaries of the 78 
>>> world.
>>>
>>> I don't want to be bothering you all the time with such queries, and I
>>> know your specialty is not ballads. So, should I let these folks get in
>>> touch with you directly, or is it better to go through me, and keep a 
>>> layer
>>> of distance between them and your esteemed self?
>>
>> I'm quite content to deal with them directly or through you. Please
>> yourself!
>>
>> These are London-recorded masters (or at least masters in the London 
>> series)
>> dating from the second half of 1947 (probably December). Looks like two
>> sessions were involved. Though this matrix series was inherited from Rex
>> because Decca transferred operations to their studio when they took over
>> Crystalate in January 1937, the 'D' was suppressed on normal popular Rex
>> issues (or rather was added to Decca issues), so its appearance here is a
>> mite surprising, but then no one seems to have heard of the 15000 series
>> before. My bump - and remember it was completely wrong about Australia - 
>> now
>> asks whether this is a series pressed for Irish sale.
>>
>> I dare say I can recover the exact recording date(s), but this will 
>> require
>> either a visit to the National Sound Archive or a letter to Brian Rust. 
>> (If
>> it comes to the latter I'll put them in touch!) I have added this to the
>> pile for my next NSA visit. If we're lucky they may have Rex catalogues.
>>
>> Howard Rye, 20 Coppermill Lane, London, England, E17 7HB
>> [unmask]
>> Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>>
>>
> 

Sure thing, Ben. I'll tell Howard.Do remember, though, he offered...Andy

Thanks for the lead on Maid of Bun Clody.  Can I credit you for that in my 
note on this (which I guess I will index after all).
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Much of the text given here is composed of Northern Irish commonplaces.
> Gale Huntington's version of Songs of the People contains a whole family 
> of
> related songs tied in with versions of the Cuckoo. It seems to resemble
> most closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon Clody'(Bunclody),
> particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was a bird stanza, but 
> there
> are other lines in common with oral versions as well.
> I am at the moment working on a master titles index for folk songs
> collected in England. This can be difficult enough at times classifying
> those songs that for several centuries have become so varied in structure
> and have crossed over with other songs; I'm glad my remit doesn't cover
> Northern Irish songs and to a similar extent some American ones.
> SteveG
> 

Steve:Tell us more about your "master titles index for folk songs collected in England."  Does this correlate at all with the on-going work of Roud, Waltz et Cie, the Digital Tradition?Do you have a publisher?  Or would you be willing to post this on the Fresno State website David Engle manages?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 11:02 am
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Much of the text given here is composed of Northern Irish 
> commonplaces.Gale Huntington's version of Songs of the People 
> contains a whole family of
> related songs tied in with versions of the Cuckoo. It seems to 
> resemblemost closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon 
> Clody'(Bunclody),particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was 
> a bird stanza, but there
> are other lines in common with oral versions as well.
> I am at the moment working on a master titles index for folk songs
> collected in England. This can be difficult enough at times 
> classifyingthose songs that for several centuries have become so 
> varied in structure
> and have crossed over with other songs; I'm glad my remit doesn't 
> coverNorthern Irish songs and to a similar extent some American ones.
> SteveG
> 

On 2005/05/23 at 05:10:44PM -0500, Andy wrote:> Bennett and all,> In the exchange that follows, the red is Bennett, the green is me and the
> blue is Howard.	Just a minor point -- the colors are specific to your e-mail
program, which appears to be a Macintosh version of Microsoft's Outlook
Express.  (Are you experimenting to see how many security holes you can
introduce into the Mac, which is fairly secure by default?)	It *may* have added a copy in HTML, and there the colors would
be preserved -- except in e-mail programs which don't do HTML at all.  I
know that *I* opt to not use anything which can render HTML as an e-mail
client, because there are too many nasty things which can be done with
HTML.  My e-mail client knows just enough about HTML to discard it. :-)	O.K.  A quick check back in the raw e-mail shows that you did
not add HTML (thank goodness), so the colors will certainly not work the
same on other's systems.  They may not even work on Windows versions of
Outlook Express.	However, if the attribution lines e.g.	In such-and-such, So-and-so said:Is left intact, people should be identifiable by counting the quote
marks ">" at the left margin -- as long as the e-mail program happens to
properly use and preserve those as well.	Enjoy,
		DoN.-- 
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
	(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Don,I don't know from HTML. Since I don't know from it, I couldn't do nasty
things with it.  As far as I knew, the colors would preserve through the
sending. I was only trying to identify the participants. Hokay?Cohen
-- 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 23 May 2005 19:02
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Much of the text given here is composed of Northern Irish commonplaces.
> Gale Huntington's version of Songs of the People contains a whole family of
> related songs tied in with versions of the Cuckoo. It seems to resemble
> most closely the broadside ballad 'The Maid of Bon Clody'(Bunclody),
> particularly in the handling the pen/ I wish I was a bird stanza, but there
> are other lines in common with oral versions as well.Bunclody, or one of its close relatives ("I rise in the morning with my heart full of woe" -Petrie-
, etc) is the likely direct ancestor of the American "Pretty Saro", both text and tune. A P Graves
set his "My Love's an Arbutus" to a melody from the same family.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "bennett schwartz" <[unmask]><<Thanks for your help.
I bought this record in St John's, Newfoundland sometime between Oct 1955 
and April 1957.
The label says "Made in England" I am ignorant about this stuff--matrix numbers, etc., but this is what I 
seeSide A
Scratched into the record itself  "N|PLT"(the | could be a sub-1),"U", a 
possibly reversed 1,  and "DR 11812-2"
Side B
Scratched into the record itself "NPLT", "OA",  "U", a reversed "2" 
overstamped on "1",  and "DR11826-1">>That would have been recorded late in 1947, probably issued early in 1948. Peace,
Paul

Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this song, the story behind it and any other such related information. I am quite certain that I would not call this a Ballad in the traditional sense but it may be a taming down of some of the ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive children's ears it was seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses that are all I have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on this song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you have verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something of a story that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell me the source. Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of question without just going to this well of knowledge and asking would be appreciated.  My Bonnie Lies over the ocean - X3
Oh Bring back my bonnie to me. Bring Back, bring back, Bring back my Bonnie to me, to me; 
Bring back, bring back, Oh bring back my Bonnie to me.Last night as I lay on my pillow - X3
Oh bring back my Bonnie to me. I also would like to publicly acknowledge that you may all thank "Any" Cohen  for turning me on to this list and yes, I can assure there is a riddle in their somewhere. Many thanks.Sammy Rich
[unmask]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sammy Rich" <[unmask]><<Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this song, the
story behind it and any other such related information. I am quite certain
that I would not call this a Ballad in the traditional sense but it may be a
taming down of some of the ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive
children's ears it was seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses
that are all I have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on
this song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you have
verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something of a story
that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell me the source.Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of question
without just going to this well of knowledge and asking would be
appreciated.  >>There are several good places. One place to look is the Traditional Ballad
Index, which is at:http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.htmlHere's what it says about the song:NAME: My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean
DESCRIPTION: The singer laments that his bonnie is across the waves, and
implores that
someone "bring back my bonnie to me." He asks the winds specifically to
carry her. (He
dreams she is dead.) (He rejoices that the winds have blown his bonnie to
him.)
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1881 (Hills's "Student Songs")
KEYWORDS: love separation sea reunion
FOUND IN: US
REFERENCES (3 citations):
Silber-FSWB, p. 143, "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean" (1 text)
Fuld-WFM, p. 381, "My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean"
DT, MYBONNIE*
RECORDINGS:
Haydn Quartet, "Bring Back My Bonnie to Me" (Victor A-123, 1900)
Leake County Revelers, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (Columbia 15227-D,
1928)
Ella Logan, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (Brunswick 8196, 1938)
Mobile Strugglers, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (on AmSkBa)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "My God, How the Money Rolls In" (tune)
cf. "The Cowboy's Dream" (tune)
cf. "Tom Twist" (tune)
SAME TUNE:
Tom Twist (File: FlBr171)
My Children Are Seven in Number (Greenway-AFP, p. 166; on PeteSeeger13,
AmHist1)
Bring Back My Neighbors to Me (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 119)
Yuck! Cats (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 67)
Come Up, Dear Dinner, Come Up (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 121)
My Body Has Tuberculosis (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 131)
Zekey Looked into the Gas Tank (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 133)
Nora Bayes, "My Barney Lies Over the Ocean" (Columbia A-2678, 1918)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
My Bonnie
Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
NOTES: Fuld notes an 1882 printing of this song under the title H. J. Fulmer
(Charles E.
Pratt). This text, however, disagrees with the 1881 printing, and Fuld
suspects that Pratt is
responsible only for the adaption.
The song obviously has spawned a number of parodies and borrowings. It
itself, however,
seems relatively constant, and the parodies are all recent. It thus seems
likely that the song
is fairly recent, and that most known versions derive from the 1881
printing. - RBW[Paul again:] One of the references is to a mysterious "DT" -- that's the
Digital Tradition, which is at:http://www.mudcat.org/The database (9,000 songs) is there, as is a forum where a lot of additional
material is discussed. You can search both. Then you can go to the Folk
Music Index:http://www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/to find more recordings -- the recordings in the Traditional Ballad Index
are mostly of source performers, whereas the Folk Music Index includes
revival performers as well.When there is reason to suspect a sheet-music origin for the song, it's
worth checking the Levy Collection:http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.htmlthe Historic American Sheet Music Collection at Duke:http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/sheetmusic/search.htmland the Library of Congress's American Memory collections (which also
include field recordings):http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/Those are the first places I look when I'm trying to track something down.Peace,
Paul

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Sammy:James Fuld's reliable _Book of World-Famous Music_ (1966) states that "My Bonnie" was first printed in an 1881 student song collection in Cambridge, Mass.  He goes a short  history of the tune.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Sammy Rich <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:33 pm
Subject: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me> Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this 
> song, the story behind it and any other such related information. I 
> am quite certain that I would not call this a Ballad in the 
> traditional sense but it may be a taming down of some of the 
> ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive children's ears it was 
> seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses that are all I 
> have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on this 
> song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you 
> have verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something 
> of a story that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell 
> me the source. 
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of 
> question without just going to this well of knowledge and asking 
> would be appreciated.  
> 
> My Bonnie Lies over the ocean - X3
> Oh Bring back my bonnie to me. 
> 
> Bring Back, bring back, Bring back my Bonnie to me, to me; 
> Bring back, bring back, Oh bring back my Bonnie to me.
> 
> Last night as I lay on my pillow - X3
> Oh bring back my Bonnie to me. 
> 
> I also would like to publicly acknowledge that you may all thank 
> "Any" Cohen  for turning me on to this list and yes, I can assure 
> there is a riddle in their somewhere. 
> 
> Many thanks.
> 
> Sammy Rich
> [unmask]
> 

Regarding "Cork Harbor" (or "The Blinded Sailor") as
sung (and nicely too) by Deirdre Murtha, Dan Milner
and Bonnie Milner on the CD "Irish Songs from Old New
England", does anyone have information on the tune. It
sounds like a hymn tune, but I'm just guessing.
Thanks.C.

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Ed:That is amazing how someone came up with a short history when there wasn't one for eighty years.  I hope my memory improves with age that much.  I will definitely look up his book.Thanks Sammy
> 
> From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> Date: 2005/05/24 Tue AM 07:11:34 EDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
> 
> Sammy:
> 
> James Fuld's reliable _Book of World-Famous Music_ (1966) states that "My Bonnie" was first printed in an 1881 student song collection in Cambridge, Mass.  He goes a short  history of the tune.
> 
> Ed
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Sammy Rich <[unmask]>
> Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:33 pm
> Subject: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
> 
> > Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this 
> > song, the story behind it and any other such related information. I 
> > am quite certain that I would not call this a Ballad in the 
> > traditional sense but it may be a taming down of some of the 
> > ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive children's ears it was 
> > seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses that are all I 
> > have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on this 
> > song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you 
> > have verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something 
> > of a story that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell 
> > me the source. 
> > 
> > Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of 
> > question without just going to this well of knowledge and asking 
> > would be appreciated.  
> > 
> > My Bonnie Lies over the ocean - X3
> > Oh Bring back my bonnie to me. 
> > 
> > Bring Back, bring back, Bring back my Bonnie to me, to me; 
> > Bring back, bring back, Oh bring back my Bonnie to me.
> > 
> > Last night as I lay on my pillow - X3
> > Oh bring back my Bonnie to me. 
> > 
> > I also would like to publicly acknowledge that you may all thank 
> > "Any" Cohen  for turning me on to this list and yes, I can assure 
> > there is a riddle in their somewhere. 
> > 
> > Many thanks.
> > 
> > Sammy Rich
> > [unmask]
> > 
> 

Paul:  That is exactly what I wanted to see a checklist of sources for information all together in one place.  I am pretty sure there may be others, but this is an outstanding start. Sammy Rich
> 
> From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> Date: 2005/05/24 Tue AM 01:55:50 EDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Sammy Rich" <[unmask]>
> 
> <<Well the question has been placed to me as to the origin of this song, the
> story behind it and any other such related information. I am quite certain
> that I would not call this a Ballad in the traditional sense but it may be a
> taming down of some of the ballads to made acceptable to the sensitive
> children's ears it was seemingly written for.  I know of a couple of verses
> that are all I have ever known and know that there are tons of parodies on
> this song.  But I have no interest in the parodies as such, but if you have
> verses recorded somewhere, particularly if they tell something of a story
> that may give a clue to the songs origin,   please tell me the source.
> 
> Any thoughts or suggestions as to how to research this kind of question
> without just going to this well of knowledge and asking would be
> appreciated.  >>
> 
> There are several good places. One place to look is the Traditional Ballad
> Index, which is at:
> 
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
> 
> Here's what it says about the song:
> 
> NAME: My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean
> DESCRIPTION: The singer laments that his bonnie is across the waves, and
> implores that
> someone "bring back my bonnie to me." He asks the winds specifically to
> carry her. (He
> dreams she is dead.) (He rejoices that the winds have blown his bonnie to
> him.)
> AUTHOR: unknown
> EARLIEST DATE: 1881 (Hills's "Student Songs")
> KEYWORDS: love separation sea reunion
> FOUND IN: US
> REFERENCES (3 citations):
> Silber-FSWB, p. 143, "My Bonnie Lies Over The Ocean" (1 text)
> Fuld-WFM, p. 381, "My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean"
> DT, MYBONNIE*
> RECORDINGS:
> Haydn Quartet, "Bring Back My Bonnie to Me" (Victor A-123, 1900)
> Leake County Revelers, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (Columbia 15227-D,
> 1928)
> Ella Logan, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (Brunswick 8196, 1938)
> Mobile Strugglers, "My Bonnie Lies Over the Ocean" (on AmSkBa)
> CROSS-REFERENCES:
> cf. "My God, How the Money Rolls In" (tune)
> cf. "The Cowboy's Dream" (tune)
> cf. "Tom Twist" (tune)
> SAME TUNE:
> Tom Twist (File: FlBr171)
> My Children Are Seven in Number (Greenway-AFP, p. 166; on PeteSeeger13,
> AmHist1)
> Bring Back My Neighbors to Me (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 119)
> Yuck! Cats (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 67)
> Come Up, Dear Dinner, Come Up (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 121)
> My Body Has Tuberculosis (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 131)
> Zekey Looked into the Gas Tank (Pankake-PHCFSB, p. 133)
> Nora Bayes, "My Barney Lies Over the Ocean" (Columbia A-2678, 1918)
> ALTERNATE TITLES:
> My Bonnie
> Bring Back My Bonnie to Me
> NOTES: Fuld notes an 1882 printing of this song under the title H. J. Fulmer
> (Charles E.
> Pratt). This text, however, disagrees with the 1881 printing, and Fuld
> suspects that Pratt is
> responsible only for the adaption.
> The song obviously has spawned a number of parodies and borrowings. It
> itself, however,
> seems relatively constant, and the parodies are all recent. It thus seems
> likely that the song
> is fairly recent, and that most known versions derive from the 1881
> printing. - RBW
> 
> [Paul again:] One of the references is to a mysterious "DT" -- that's the
> Digital Tradition, which is at:
> 
> http://www.mudcat.org/
> 
> The database (9,000 songs) is there, as is a forum where a lot of additional
> material is discussed. You can search both. Then you can go to the Folk
> Music Index:
> 
> http://www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/
> 
> to find more recordings -- the recordings in the Traditional Ballad Index
> are mostly of source performers, whereas the Folk Music Index includes
> revival performers as well.
> 
> When there is reason to suspect a sheet-music origin for the song, it's
> worth checking the Levy Collection:
> 
> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.html
> 
> the Historic American Sheet Music Collection at Duke:
> 
> http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/sheetmusic/search.html
> 
> and the Library of Congress's American Memory collections (which also
> include field recordings):
> 
> http://lcweb2.loc.gov/ammem/
> 
> 
> Those are the first places I look when I'm trying to track something down.
> 
> Peace,
> Paul
> 

Bennett,
Go ahead and use it, in fact anything I post on the List anyone feel free
to use without asking.
Ed,
Re Master Titles, yes it is part of the Roud Index project and any future
publishing of it would have to be with permission of Steve (and the rest of
the interest group working on the Roud Index)SteveG

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Thanks for that.  Last point: is there any way you'd want your name 
qualified or your position stated?
Ben Schwartz
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Down in Glasloch> Bennett,
> Go ahead and use it, in fact anything I post on the List anyone feel free
> to use without asking.
> Ed,
> Re Master Titles, yes it is part of the Roud Index project and any future
> publishing of it would have to be with permission of Steve (and the rest 
> of
> the interest group working on the Roud Index)
>
> SteveG
> 

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On 5/24/05, [unmask] wrote:>Collected in 1951 from Mrs. Cecilia Costello of Birmingham, England (and Irish extraction)
> 
>He's gone, I am now sad and lonely,
>He's left me to sail the salt sea.
>I know that he thinks of me only,
>And will soon be returning to me.[ ... ]I'm not sure which message this is in reply to, but this particular
song is rarely known as "Bring Back My Bonnie." Typically the
missing lover is "Johnnie" or "Barney."By chance, it hasn't turned up in the Ballad Index much (only
the Sam Henry version, "Bring Back My Barney to Me," from 1923),
but Roud has quite a few references (#1422).-- 
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: <[unmask]><<Collected in 1951 from Mrs. Cecilia Costello of Birmingham, England (and
Irish extraction)He's gone, I am now sad and lonely,
He's left me to sail the salt sea.
I know that he thinks of me only,
And will soon be returning to me.Chorus:
Some say that my love is returning,
To his own native country and me.
Blow gently the winds of the ocean,
And bring back my Johnny to me.     (I've also heard it  sung, "Bring back
my
Barney to me.")He's gone now his fortune to better,
I know that he's gone for my sake.
And soon I'll be getting a letter,
Or else my poor heart it will break.Last night as I lay on my pillow,
My bosom it heaved with a sigh,
As I thought on each angery billow,
While watching the clouds in the sky.This version has been recorded by Isla Cameron and Joe Hickerson that I
know
of... possibly others>>A. L. Lloyd, in his liner notes to the Watersons' "For Pence and Spicy Ale",
says the song was "A stage song favoured by Irish comedians from the 1860s
on. During the 1880s, apparently on American university campuses,
close-harmony groups remade it into the better-known -- and even more
preposterous -- "My Bonny Lies Over the Ocean". Watersons had this from Bob
Davenport who learnt it from a Frank Quinn 78."I wish Lloyd had documented the song's popularity in the 1860s! Are his
papers accessible anywhere?Peace,
Paul