Old Homestead Records issued a recording in the late 70's of radio
transcripts of his
show on WJJD, in Chicago in 1940.   The listing is on my index on the UNC
ibiblio website  www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/bp10.htm#BluegrarLiner notes indicate he was born in 1898 Champaign County, IL  and he grew
up in that area. Working in agriculture, but inspired by Bradley Kincaid
singing on WLS in the 1920's, he began to persue a career in radio singing.
The transcripts are the only recordings of him  The notes indicate his first
radio gig was with WFIW in Hopkinsville KY around 1931.Jane Keefer----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Berkeley" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: blue grass> Ron-
> I seem to remember that Blue Grass Roy sang on a local radio station in
> Louisville, KY in the 40s.  He made a big deal about being a native
> Kentuckian (in Louisville that was very important -- the attitude toward
the
> Hoosiers across the river is impresses me to this day) and I think that's
> the basis of his monicker.  If you've never heard of him, it's probably
> because he never made any commercial recordings (AFAIK) and never was
> terribly well-known outside the Louisville area.
> Roy Berkeley
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cohen, Ronald" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 9:20 AM
> Subject: blue grass
>
>
> I am just wondering about this item from the current ebay list:
>
>
>         3774610203 - Blue Grass Roy, The Hamlins Korn Kracker, World's
> Greatest Collection of Cowboy and Mountain Ballads, Book No. 6, 1935,
> $9.99 (ends Jan-12-05 19:34:00 PST)
>
> Is this a very early use of Blue Grass to refer to a style of southern
> music? It predates Bill Monroe. Ron Cohen

>             11
>Tho' I am forsaken,
>yet she is forsworn,
>Yet she is mistaken
>if she think that I'll mourn,
>I'll set as slightly by her,
>as e'er she did me,
>And for ever will deny her,
>let her be, farewel she.
>
>Steve GardhamThe meaning of "forsworn" seems clear here: "perjured."--
john garst    [unmask]

Someone on the mountain dulcimer list was searching for an old ballad with
the following verse, so I thought I would ask here:>My 95 year old father has been searching for the words to a song he heard
>in southern Ohio early in the 1900s. These are the words he knows:
>
>We're lonesome for you Sarah, our hearts are crushed with pain. The fun we
>had together will never come again.
>But heaven holds our treasures, God needed you, I know.
>Your sunny smile and beauty fair will brighten heaven so.
>
>He would like to know the rest of the song and hopes such a beautiful
>ballad has not disappeared. Can you help?Thanks,
Lisa

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

BTW, the "The Wandering Folksong" is, IMO, a fascinating quick survey of
what happens with folksongs, and good listening, to boot.
CAMSCO doesn't carry it, since Folkways doesn't give me any discounts on
custom tapes or CDs, so take this as a disinterested, unsolicited plug.dick greenhausdic[unmask] wrote:>m a piece by Philips Barry in the _New England Journal of Folklore_ where he
>gave the words and music to a spinoff written by a doctor in Maine who went
>with friends on a  camping and fishing trip to Lake Chemo.  His song, "Lake
>Chemo" about the trip, is set to the tune, which he wrote down, of "Nora
>MacShane."  I recorded these -- plus another unrelated tune ( in a minor mode ) to the
>cowboy song which I had learned from Irva Montijo  ( transplanted from
>Arkansas ) -- and which began not on the Streets of  Laredo,  but
>
>                "As I went down to the door, the door,
>                         As I went  down to the door of my room,
>                I spied a young cowboy all wrapped in white linen.
>                    All wrapped in white linen as cold as the tomb." --.
>
>I sang both of these on my Folkways Record "The Wandering Folksong,"  in
>1967.  Like all Folkways records, this one is still available in a reprint edition
>( you choose, and pay for, whether on an audio tape or a CD ) from the
>Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC.
>
>This is all from my defective 87-year-old memory, and I may be a little wrong
>on some of the titles and dates.
>
>
>Sam Hinton
>La Jolla, California
>
>
>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

In Willie of Winsberry, the King calls for his merry men, his merry men
thirty and three.lew becker

Steve:Did I miss something?  Beyond Mike Heaney, what is the source of this?  It seems to me that the "Cuckoo" that survives in oral tradition is tidy evidence of  the poetics of
 the folk.In short, they sense/understand/select what is poetic and what is not  --Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:45 pm
Subject: Re: The Cuckoo> Okay, here goes, all 11 stanzas with grateful thanks to Mike Heaney.
> If anyone recognizes anything which occurs elsewhere other than first
> stanza and the lines 'let her go farewel she' at the end please
> post it.
>           1
> Meeting's a pleasure,
> but parting's a grief,
> An Unconstant lover
> is worse than a Thief;
> A Theif he can Rob me,
> and take what I have,
> but an Unconstant Lover
> will bring me to the grave.
>           2
> When fancy is grounded
> and rooted beside,
> The Lover is wounded
> as soon as deny'd.
> many torments are bleeding
> to increase his pain,
> And the lover lies bleeding
> by the darts of disdain.
>           3
> This is ny condition,
> I needs must confess,
> With humble submission
> I have made my address;
> In her Charms I delighted
> more than Gold I declare,
> Yet am scornfully slighted
> for the love which I bear.
>           4
> I value not treasure
> the rich Golden Ore,
> There's joy, love and pleasure
> which I dearly adore;
> But alas! that sweet blesing
> I may not enjoy,
> I am(?) sorrows possessing
> which my life will destroy.
>            5
> Like a Ship in the Ocean,
> I am tost too and fro,
> From the heighth of promotion,
> to the depth of sad woe,
> While the Billows are roaring
> in a tempest of grief,
> I the Fates am imploring
> but can find no relief
>            6
> Of a false-hearted lover
> I must needs complain
> To my grief I discovered
> that my sighs are in vain;
> Having mov'd her to pity,
> with tears in my eyes,
> While that sorrowful dity
> She would scorn and despise.
>            7
> To think that my Jewel
> should torture me so,
> In loves flaming fuel
> with a feavour I glow,
> She's more than ungrateful,
> unconstant, unkind,
> To her dear loyal lover
> like the wavering wind.
>            8
> In her Cheeks blushing Roses
> with lilies appear,
> Where Cupid reposes
> as her Charms I draw near;
> I account it my duty
> her perfection to prize,
> She's a Phoenix for beauty,
> was the constant likewise.
>            9
> If her heart was not ranging,
> she should soon be my Bride,
> But alas she is Changing
> and turns with the Tide,
> Having ruined many
> by her self-heart alone,
> She's not constant to any
> but can love more than one.
>            10
> Since I find out her folly,
> I'll no longer repine,
> But will strive to be jolly
> with a Glass of Rich Wine,
> No longer about her
> will I troubled be,
> I can now live without her
> let her go, farewel she.
>            11
> Tho' I am forsaken,
> yet she is forsworn,
> Yet she is mistaken
> if she think that I'll mourn,
> I'll set as slightly by her,
> as e'er she did me,
> And for ever will deny her,
> let her be, farewel she.
>

Ed, I had a rather sparse deciphering of the badly printed ballad on the
Bodleian site and asked Mike to have a look at the original. The original
connection with 'The Cuckoo' lies in the first stanza only but there are
bits of other ballads in there as well.
The ref is Douce 2 (261b). The Bodleian date reckoning based on printers is
1683 - 96. The ballad seems to be unique and although the designated tune
has survived in a ballad in tradition, there don't seem to have been any
references to it in the likes of Rollins, although I haven't checked
Bruce's website yet. You might like to do that for us.
SteveG

On 1/10/05, Lewis Becker wrote:>In Willie of Winsberry, the King calls for his merry men, his merry men
>thirty and three.In the versions I know, he calls for them "BY thirty and BY three."
Not automatically the same thing. They might be unit sizes -- "by
platoons and by squads."In fact, going back to the Bible bits, King David had a unit of
bodyguards called "The Three" and another called "The Thirty."
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I don't think the choice of the specific quantity 33 is simply an indication of wealth -
there are other alliterative quantities used elsewhere in balladry, such as "four and
twenty" .  Specific quantities become familiar over time and repetition in multiple
songs:"four and twenty maidens were playing at the ball"
"four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie"But horses are almost always "thirty and three".  As mentioned above, the ladder in
Keach and Creel is also "thirty steps and three"; not a symbol of wealth in this case.
Is this just due to the familiarity of the phrase - a sort of "floating verse" effect?If so, I'm still wondering about the "33" on the Rolling Rock beer bottle specifically
associated with the horse.  The theory that it was a printer's mark totalling up the
number of words in the logo is really lame.  It could be a Masonic mark, but the
association with a horse is intriguing..

Hi,
Simple logic would suggest that the phrases arose from the poetical
desirability for the extra syllable. BUT logic doesn't always go with
language. For instance the English colloquialism 'a twelvemonth'. What was
wrong with 'a year'? Then again most people insist on saying the 9 syllable
double-u, double-u, double-u, when 3-syllable World wide web will do.
SteveG

>Hi,
>Simple logic would suggest that the phrases arose from the poetical
>desirability for the extra syllable. BUT logic doesn't always go with
>language. For instance the English colloquialism 'a twelvemonth'. What was
>wrong with 'a year'? Then again most people insist on saying the 9 syllable
>double-u, double-u, double-u,To some of us, this is only 6 syllables.>when 3-syllable World wide web will do.
>SteveG--
john garst    [unmask]

>Hi,
>Simple logic would suggest that the phrases arose from the poetical
>desirability for the extra syllable. BUT logic doesn't always go with
>language. For instance the English colloquialism 'a twelvemonth'. What was
>wrong with 'a year'? Then again most people insist on saying the 9 syllable
>double-u, double-u, double-u, when 3-syllable World wide web will do.
>SteveGMostly I here "dub dub dub" out here on the left coast.And it's on its way out -- most sites work fine when you leave off the "www.".--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

>I don't think the choice of the specific quantity 33 is simply an
>indication of wealth -
>there are other alliterative quantities used elsewhere in balladry,
>such as "four and
>twenty" .  Specific quantities become familiar over time and
>repetition in multiple
>songs:
>
>"four and twenty maidens were playing at the ball"
>"four and twenty blackbirds baked in a pie"
>
>But horses are almost always "thirty and three".  As mentioned
>above, the ladder in
>Keach and Creel is also "thirty steps and three"; not a symbol of
>wealth in this case.
>Is this just due to the familiarity of the phrase - a sort of
>"floating verse" effect?
>
>If so, I'm still wondering about the "33" on the Rolling Rock beer
>bottle specifically
>associated with the horse.  The theory that it was a printer's mark
>totalling up the
>number of words in the logo is really lame.  It could be a Masonic
>mark, but the
>association with a horse is intriguing..The Rolling Rock site <http://www.rollingrock.com> gives several
possible answers, but no definitive one. None have anything to do
with horses.This site claims to have the answer:
<http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_044>. Nothing to do with
horses, either.--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 11 January 2005 11:30
Subject: Re: The Cuckoo> Ed, I had a rather sparse deciphering of the badly printed ballad on the
> Bodleian site and asked Mike to have a look at the original. The original
> connection with 'The Cuckoo' lies in the first stanza only but there are
> bits of other ballads in there as well.
> The ref is Douce 2 (261b). The Bodleian date reckoning based on printers is
> 1683 - 96. The ballad seems to be unique and although the designated tune
> has survived in a ballad in tradition, there don't seem to have been any
> references to it in the likes of Rollins, although I haven't checked
> Bruce's website yet. You might like to do that for us.
> SteveG
>Claude Simpson refers to it briefly under 'Love Will Find Out the Way' (British Broadside, 473,
footnote)  as one of two set to that tune "apparently not ... re-published."

Hi folks:Yes, that's the way you spell chicken. But where the heck did the song come
from? It reeks of being a composed song, and of the minstrel-show stage, but
I haven't been able to find any sheet-music sources for it. So far the
earliest citation I have is an Arthur Collins cylinder recording from
1903 -- he was definitely a "coon-song" performer. But nothing earlier.Peace,
Paul

Is anyone else having problems downloading images from the Bodleian catalog?
For the past two days I have not even been able to see the sample images
listed athttp://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ballads/ballads.htmselecting the "Some Images" option?Ben Schwartz

At 04:39 AM 1/12/2005, you wrote:
>Is anyone else having problems downloading images from the Bodleian catalog?
>For the past two days I have not even been able to see the sample images
>listed at
>
>http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ballads/ballads.htm
>
>selecting the "Some Images" option?
>
>Ben SchwartzThey show up fine for me, on Netscape 7 and IE 6.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
http://www.beasleybooks.com

never had a problem with them
check to make sure your browser is configured to display images
in preferences....CBPaul Garon wrote:
> At 04:39 AM 1/12/2005, you wrote:
>
>> Is anyone else having problems downloading images from the Bodleian
>> catalog?
>> For the past two days I have not even been able to see the sample images
>> listed at
>>
>> http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/ballads/ballads.htm
>>
>> selecting the "Some Images" option?
>>
>> Ben Schwartz
>
>
> They show up fine for me, on Netscape 7 and IE 6.
>
> Paul Garon
>
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> http://www.beasleybooks.com--
Adam lay ybounden, bounden in a bond;
Four thousand winters thought he not too long.
And all was fro an apple, an apple that he took,
As clerkes finden written in their book,
Ne had the apple taken been, the apple taken been,
Ne had never our lady a been heavene queen.
Blessed be the time that apple taken was,
Therefore we moun singen, Deo gracias!
-Anonymous, 15 th century.
                             #*#My soul, there is a country
  Far beyond the stars,
  Where stands a winged sentry
  All skilful in the wars:  There, above noise and danger
  Sweet Peace sits crowned with smiles
  And One, born in a manger
  Commands the beauteous files.  He is thy gracious friend
  And, O my soul awake!
  Did in pure love descend
  To die here for thy sake.  If thou canst get but thither,
  There grows the flow'r of Peace,
  The Rose that cannot wither,
  Thy fortress and thy ease.  Leave then thy foolish ranges,
  For none can thee secure
  But One who never changes,
  Thy God, thy life, thy cure.-Henry Vaughan (1622-1695)
***********************************************************************************************************************************************###############################################################################################

>Hi folks:
>
>Yes, that's the way you spell chicken. But where the heck did the song come
>from? It reeks of being a composed song, and of the minstrel-show stage, but
>I haven't been able to find any sheet-music sources for it. So far the
>earliest citation I have is an Arthur Collins cylinder recording from
>1903 -- he was definitely a "coon-song" performer. But nothing earlier.
>
>Peace,
>PaulI don't know the song.  Can you describe it further?--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>>Yes, that's the way you spell chicken. But where the heck did the song come
>from? It reeks of being a composed song, and of the minstrel-show stage,
but
>I haven't been able to find any sheet-music sources for it. So far the
>earliest citation I have is an Arthur Collins cylinder recording from
>1903 -- he was definitely a "coon-song" performer. But nothing earlier.<<I don't know the song.  Can you describe it further?>>The chorus goes something like this:C - is the way to begin
H - is the second letter in
I - am the third and
C - that's the middle of the word
K - just fillin' in
E - gettin' near the "N"
C - H - I - C - K - E - N -- that's the way you spell chicken.There are variants, most of which are in dialect, and there's at least one
version with a verse about "Ragtime Joe".Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I can't load them either. I see the pages, and some of the thumbnails,
but no large images. Macintosh OS X 10.2, using FireFox.But I've never visited it with this configuration before, so I'm
not much of a test. I don't know if it's changed, just that it
doesn't work.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I know of this song through the Red Clay Ramblers who learned it from
Uncle Dave Macon. It's a very funny song. The lyrics (courtesy of the
digital Tradition) are:In a little country school house where the children used to go,
There went a little red-haired boy by the name of Ragtime Joe.
One day the teacher called on the class to spell a certain kind of bird,
The kind of bird it was a chicken, and they could not spell that word.So the teacher called on Ragtime Joe to spell that word for them,
He did not hesitate a bit, this is the way he began:     C - that's the way to begin
     H - that's the next letter in
     I - that is the third
     C - time to season up the bird
     K - I'm fitting in
     E - getting near the end
        C-H-I-C-K-E-N
     That is the way to spell chicken.Parson Johnson gave a concert in the old school house one night,
He hired a lot of fellers that could sing and could recite;
When they pulled the curtain, everything went wrong
Until - the children loudly called, "Let's hear from Ragtime Joe."He sang a ragtime jukin' tune, but it did not go so well,
He said, "I went 'cross on that, so I guess I'll have to spell,"
Then he told the audience he had composed this chicken song
And when he sang these words to them, he took the house by storm.
[Chorus]Paddy Tutty
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
http://www.prairiedruid.netPaul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
>
>
>
>>Yes, that's the way you spell chicken. But where the heck did the song come
>>from? It reeks of being a composed song, and of the minstrel-show stage,
>>
>>
>but
>
>
>>I haven't been able to find any sheet-music sources for it. So far the
>>earliest citation I have is an Arthur Collins cylinder recording from
>>1903 -- he was definitely a "coon-song" performer. But nothing earlier.
>>
>>
>
><<I don't know the song.  Can you describe it further?>>
>
>The chorus goes something like this:
>
>C - is the way to begin
>H - is the second letter in
>I - am the third and
>C - that's the middle of the word
>K - just fillin' in
>E - gettin' near the "N"
>C - H - I - C - K - E - N -- that's the way you spell chicken.
>
>There are variants, most of which are in dialect, and there's at least one
>version with a verse about "Ragtime Joe".
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>
>
>
>

Apologies to everyone else - please ignore
Lyn
I've been trying to send you emails but they keep bouncing back. Can you contact me? Thanks
SteveSignup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

"In fact, going back to the Bible bits, King David had
a unit of bodyguards called 'The Three' and another
called 'The Thirty'.No kidding. Can you cite (as they say) chapter and
verse? Similarly, cultists following H. P. Lovecraft,
Clark Ashton Smith and others will recognize the
mythic significance (a mulitple of 3) of The
Sixtystone.Thanks.
Dead But Dreaming in Sunken R'lyehCliffA

On 1/12/05, Cliff Abrams wrote:>"In fact, going back to the Bible bits, King David had
>a unit of bodyguards called 'The Three' and another
>called 'The Thirty'.
>
>No kidding. Can you cite (as they say) chapter and
>verse? Similarly, cultists following H. P. Lovecraft,
>Clark Ashton Smith and others will recognize the
>mythic significance (a mulitple of 3) of The
>Sixtystone.
>There are sundry mentions. The most significant is
2 Samuel chapter 23 (just about the whole chapter
after verse 8).If you actually want to dig into details, as opposed
to just verify the existence of the two groups, you
really need to use a quality modern translation (as
opposed to the King James Bible, or the New King James,
of of course any of the non-translations such as the
Living Bible). The Hebrew of 1 and 2 Samuel is extremely
defective, and the King James translators didn't have our
modern resources for correcting it.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Some time ago I ran across a reference to the regional [Middle East] use
of the term "40" as in 40 days and 40 nights or Ali Baba and the 40
thieves. The idea being that "40" was not meant to be considered as an
actual number but was to mean "many" as in many days and many nights or
Ali Baba and a lot of thieves.Could "30 and 3" have a meaning beyond just numbers or rhyme?

On 1/13/05, Clifford J OCHELTREE wrote:>Some time ago I ran across a reference to the regional [Middle East] use
>of the term "40" as in 40 days and 40 nights or Ali Baba and the 40
>thieves. The idea being that "40" was not meant to be considered as an
>actual number but was to mean "many" as in many days and many nights or
>Ali Baba and a lot of thieves.Pretty definitely true. For that matter, there is a theory that
the word "thousand" in a military context means not "1000" but
"a squad of about a dozen, give or take a few." :-)>Could "30 and 3" have a meaning beyond just numbers or rhyme?I really doubt it has a meaning beyond numbers. :-)It could be, but it's not Biblical. 33 has no major Biblical
significance. It's a lot more common in folklore: The thirty-and-three
horses in "Lady Isabel," etc., the "thirty and three" merry men
in "Willie o' Winsbury," etc.We have to keep context in mind here. I didn't mention the
Biblical link to suggest direct dependence; just how people
do things. :-) What significance would 33 have in Britain in
this period? Nothing springs to my mind.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>In a message dated 1/11/2005 7:40:08 PM GMT Standard Time,
>[unmask] writes:
>
>>To some of us, this is only 6 syllables.
>>
>
>
>How?  "doub - le - u" is three - three times three is nine."dub-ya dub-ya dub-ya">
>John Moulden--
john garst    [unmask]

At 03:51 PM 1/13/2005 -0500, you wrote:>>How?  "doub - le - u" is three - three times three is nine.
>
>"dub-ya dub-ya dub-ya"One is bad enough.

Dennis Lien wrote:
> At 09:59 PM 1/9/2005, Dan Goodman wrote:
>
>> http://ling.lll.hawaii.edu/faculty/stampe/Oral-Lit/English/Child-Ballads/child.html
>>
>>
>> Child Ballads - Very slow to load (it is one very large file) this is
>> the complete text of Child's 'The English and Scottish Popular
>> Ballads' with all their variants. The work of Cathy Lynn Preston and
>> Davis Stampe of the Department of Linguistics at the University of
>> Hawaii. H H
>>
>> --
>> Dan Goodman
>
>
>
> Don't know if "all the variants" are there, but the 8-volume set is also
> available at
>
> http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/child/index.htm
>
> which loads right away (I couldn't get the Hawaii site to load at all
> right now).Much thanks!!!--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Goodman" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 14 January 2005 01:00
Subject: Re: Attn: Pamela! (and folk music buffs)> > Don't know if "all the variants" are there, but the 8-volume set is also
> > available at
> >
> > http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/child/index.htm
> >
> > which loads right away (I couldn't get the Hawaii site to load at all
> > right now).Thanks for mentioning that; I don't think I'd come across this iteration of the Preston files. Of
course, the material is of limited value without the all-important source details and notes, but at
least it can be read by the average internet user.The Hawaii version is ridiculously big for a web page (perhaps it was originally intended for
intranet use). Like Cathy Preston's original files, its value is mainly as a fully searchable
text/concordance to be used in conjunction with the original books.The Preston material was also available at http://www.peterrobins.co.uk/ballads/ in yet another
format; this time as a searchable/browseable database with some tunes also included. Current status
is unclear; the front-end is there, but the rest of it is inaccessible at present.Malcolm Douglas

Hi!        Another week - another list. :-)        SONGSTERS        3951559724 - MORLEY'S WONDERFUL EIGHT SONGSTER, $5.95 (ends
Jan-15-05 13:17:35 PST)        6942782522 - McNish Ramza & Arno Refined Minstrels Songster, 1880?,
$9.99 (ends Jan-17-05 07:33:47 PST)        6505010407 - Lookout Mountain No. One Songster, 1880's, $7.99 (ends
Jan-18-05 13:11:29 PST)        6505064775 - Bunker Hill Songster, 1850?, $9 (ends Jan-18-05
18:06:58 PST)        MISCELLANEOUS        4066515632 - Frank Warner Sings American Folk songs and Ballads,
LP, $24.95 (ends Jan-16-05 09:32:03 PST)        4066874330 - Compendium, The Old Town School of Folk Music in
Chicago, 2 LP set, $10.49 (ends Jan-17-05 14:55:25 PST)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        6942576248 - A PIONEER SONGSTER: Texts From The Stevens-Douglass
Manuscript Of Western New York 1841-1856 by Douglass, 1958, $24.95 (ends
Jan-15-05 18:15:00 PST)        3774779793 - Bayou Ballads by Monroe/Schindler, 1921, $9.99 (ends
Jan-15-05 17:03:43 PST) also 4518557126 - $9.95 (ends Jan-16-05 17:12:14
PST)        6942927962 - DRUNKEN BARNABYS FOUR JOURNEYS, 1822, 4.99 GBP (ends
Jan-16-05 13:17:28 PST)        6942720234 - THE SONGS AND BALLADS OF CUMBERLAND by Gilpin, 1866,
$17.38 (ends Jan-16-05 14:47:03 PST)        3952187310 - Negro Folk Rhymes  Wise & Otherwise by Talley, 1922,
$35 (ends an-16-05 15:10:05 PST)        4518871086 - FOLK SONGS OF THE SOUTH by Cox, 1967 reprint, $8
(ends Jan-17-05 18:30:22 PST)        4518905721 - HE WAS SINGIN' THIS SONG by Tinsley, 1982, $9.99
(ends Jan-17-05 20:36:36 PST)        3775304206 - JOE DAVIS FOLIO OF HILL COUNTRY SONGS & BALLADS, 1929,
$6 (ends Jan-17-05 21:31:09 PST)        7947111130 - The Penguin Book Of Australian  Ballads by Butters &
Webby, 1993, $1.50 AU (ends Jan-17-05 23:21:35 PST)        3775499122 - 4 songbooks (3 from 1930's and 1 1961), $4 (ends
Jan-18-05 18:03:08 PST)        4519196463 - IRISH STREET BALLADS by Lochlainn, 1960, $5.50 (ends
Jan-18-05 20:33:20 PST)        4519263733 - KERR'S CORNKISTERS Bothy Ballads, 1950, 2.99 GBP (ends
Jan-19-05 04:49:35 PST)        4519293125 - FOLK SONGS OF TRINIDAD & TOBAGO by Walke, 1970, 3.99
GBP (ends Jan-19-05 07:02:20 PST)        6943012207 - Mountain Ballads Old Time Songs and Church Hymns As
Sung by DOC HOPKINS The Kentucky Mountaineer, $9.99 (ends Jan-19-05 09:27:59
PST)        6943073969 - Three Hundred and Sixty Popular Songs and Ballads of
England and America, 18??, $9.99 (ends Jan-19-05 19:28:58 PST)        6942811912 - Ballads and Sea Songs From Nova Scotia by MacKenzie,
1963, $24.95 (ends Jan-20-05 12:29:09 PST)        6942936728 - NORWEGIAN EMIGRANT SONGS AND BALLADS by Blegen & Ruud,
1936, $24.99 (ends Jan-21-05 14:49:22 PST)        4519425518 - THE SHAKER SPIRTUAL by Patterson, 1979, $40 (ends
Jan-22-05 15:29:50 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Does anyone know any birdscarers' songs? Birdscaring used to be a job for
children in the country (Bob Copper, for example, remembered having to do it),
and there are many accounts of the (often quite elaborate) cries that went with
it. Joseph Andrews and Jude the Obscure are described as having had to do it
when they were young. Sharp and Kidson found a couple of examples. Roy Palmer
conveniently printed four in The Painful Plough, but I don't know of any
recordings in any language.Can anyone help?Gerald Porter

Is this such a song?Four seeds in a hole -
One for the rook,
One for the crow,
One to rot and one to grow.Jon Bartlett----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Porter" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 12:13 AM
Subject: Birdscaring> Does anyone know any birdscarers' songs? Birdscaring used to be a job for
> children in the country (Bob Copper, for example, remembered having to do
> it),
> and there are many accounts of the (often quite elaborate) cries that went
> with
> it. Joseph Andrews and Jude the Obscure are described as having had to do
> it
> when they were young. Sharp and Kidson found a couple of examples. Roy
> Palmer
> conveniently printed four in The Painful Plough, but I don't know of any
> recordings in any language.
>
> Can anyone help?
>
> Gerald Porter

Bob,Thanks for the biblical information. Worth looking
into, I am sure. There is a new translation out there
(forgot the author) that has been somewhat criticized
for losing some of the poetry but is more accurate
textually and linguistically.C.There are sundry mentions. The most significant is
2 Samuel chapter 23 (just about the whole chapter
after verse 8).If you actually want to dig into details, as opposed
to just verify the existence of the two groups, you
really need to use a quality modern translation (as
opposed to the King James Bible, or the New King
James,
of of course any of the non-translations such as the
Living Bible). The Hebrew of 1 and 2 Samuel is
extremely
defective, and the King James translators didn't have
our
modern resources for correcting it.--
Bob Waltz

Hello to all here.   I have enjoyed looking thru the archives.  Thank you
for that.It occurs to me that the young people in this song (below - from The Clancy
Brothers) were distracted, negligent birdscarers. Fortunately, the old
straw stayed constant to his task. WARNING: There's a good chance my lyrics
are not quite right:A wee bit over the lea, melads
A wee bit over the green
The birds went into the poor man?s corn
I fear they?ll never be se-se-se-se-seen, melads,
I fear they?ll never be seenThen out came a bonnie wee lass
And she was one so fair
She went into the poor man?s corn
To see if the birds were tha-tha-tha-the there, melads
To see if the birds were thereThen out came a bonnie wee lad
And he was a fisherman?s son
He went into the poor man?s corn
To see where the birds had ru-ru-ru-ru-run, melads
To see where the birds had runHe kissed her on the cheek, melads
He kissed her on the chin
Said ?Don?t be kissin? me bonnie wee lad
I fear it is a si-si-si-si-sin, melad,
I fear it is a sin?.Then out came the poor old man
And he was tattered and torn
?AAHHHHH, that?s the way that there mindin? me birds,
I?ll do it mesel? in the mo-mo-mo-mo-morn, melads,
I?ll do it mesel? in the morn?.*********************************************I am sure the resulting child was beautiful.   :-)   Will anyone comment -
is this a Sarah Makem song?Dan

On 1/14/05, Cliff Abrams wrote:>Bob,
>
>Thanks for the biblical information. Worth looking
>into, I am sure. There is a new translation out there
>(forgot the author) that has been somewhat criticized
>for losing some of the poetry but is more accurate
>textually and linguistically.Every recent translation is criticized for losing poetry.
Most of them are criticized for accuracy. Most are criticized
for gender issues, too. It doesn't mean anything. :-)I'm still using the New Revised Standard Version. It gets
criticized from *both* directions on all these issues, so it's
obviously doing something right.Incidentally, 1 and 2 Samuel offer someone a very good folklore
thesis. If you read the accounts in 1 Samuel 16-22 of how David
and Saul became acquainted (plus the story of David and Goliath),
it will instantly be obvious that two stories have been conflated
(not collated :-).In one account, David is a musician, part of Saul's court.
In another, he's a shepherd bringing lunch to his brothers.
In one account, Saul knows David; in the other, he's never
seen him before. Etc.Now get this: In the oldest Greek translation of David and Goliath,
the Codex Vaticanus, *one of these stories is missing in its
entirety*. It has David as Saul's courtier; it lacks David as
busboy.What's more amazing is that what's left, and what's omitted,
are both complete stories.And the part that's missing in Vaticanus has all the hallmarks
of folklore. The part that's found in Vaticanus is a more sober
history.Other parts of the story of 1 Samuel also have doubles -- e.g.
David twice spares Saul's life. There are two different stories
to explain the proverb "Is Saul also among the prophets?"This has gotten a certain amount of attention (not enough, IMHO)
from Biblical scholars. But none of them know beans about folklore --
they don't realize that the David and Goliath version omitted
by Vaticanus is a folktale, and they don't realize that much of
the rest of 1 Samuel also comes from folktale sources. There is
a lot of really good work that could be done there.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 09:02:56AM -0500, Dan Cummins wrote:
> Hello to all here.   I have enjoyed looking thru the archives.  Thank you
> for that.
>
> It occurs to me that the young people in this song (below - from The Clancy
> Brothers) were distracted, negligent birdscarers. Fortunately, the old
> straw stayed constant to his task. WARNING: There's a good chance my lyrics
> are not quite right:
>
> A wee bit over the lea, melads
> A wee bit over the green
> The birds went into the poor man?s corn
> I fear they?ll never be se-se-se-se-seen, melads,
> I fear they?ll never be seenThe McPeake family (of 25-30 years ago) sang a song they called 'The Stuttering Lovers,'
which scanned like the song you quote.  I don't recall that they said where they got
it, though.  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Off topic, since there is no connected ballad, but in fact I'm
looking into this in connection with a piece I'm writing on "Delia,"
so there is a roundabout connection.The 1823 census of Savannah, Georgia, gives "Mantua Maker" as the
occupation of a free woman of color.I'm mystified.  What does a mantua maker make?John

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I could check the OED.  Since Mantua is in Italy, could it be a hat of some description?  Could she be a milliner?        Marge -----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of John Garst
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:11 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Mantua makerOff topic, since there is no connected ballad, but in fact I'm
looking into this in connection with a piece I'm writing on "Delia,"
so there is a roundabout connection.The 1823 census of Savannah, Georgia, gives "Mantua Maker" as the
occupation of a free woman of color.I'm mystified.  What does a mantua maker make?John

I am also on a "women in the 18th c" list A mantua is a kind popular in the 18th and early 19thc  gown.   The woman is a gown maker.Liz in foggy nh-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of John Garst
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 11:11 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Mantua makerOff topic, since there is no connected ballad, but in fact I'm
looking into this in connection with a piece I'm writing on "Delia,"
so there is a roundabout connection.The 1823 census of Savannah, Georgia, gives "Mantua Maker" as the
occupation of a free woman of color.I'm mystified.  What does a mantua maker make?John

On Friday, January 14, 2005 10:48 AM Cal Lani Lani Herrmann wrote> The McPeake family (of 25-30 years ago) sang a song they called 'The
> Stuttering Lovers,'
> which scanned like the song you quote.  I don't recall that they said
> where they got
> it, though.You can find the words and music in _More Irish Street Ballads_ by Colm O
Lochlainn (#12 on pp.24-25 in English, #12A on pp. 224-225 translated to
Gaelic).
O Lochlainn's note (p.205)  is "It was a great favourite in the decade
1910-15 and was first popularised by that splendid singer Denis
O'Sullivan...."Ben Schwartz

From "The Encyclopedia of World Costume" by Doreen Yarwood...
Mantua
A corruption of Manteau, probably due to association with the
Italian city of Mantua. Originally the name of a loose gown
with unboned bodice worn by women from the mid-seventeenth to
the mid-eighteenth century. A mantua-maker was a dress maker
who made such gowns.From "The Art of Dress" by Jane Ashelford...
...seamstresses started making the unboned mantua and, when
stiff bodied gowns ceased to be fashionable, took over the
making of all gowns. Known as mantua-makers, they opened up
their own establishments leaving the tailors to make only
women's riding habits while male stay makers made the stays
or corsets, as these were now separate from the bodice.
According to R. Campbell's "The London Tradesman (1747)", a
guide for the prospective tradesperson, the mantua maker was
responsible for the making of "Night-Gowns, Mantuas, and
Petticoats, Rob de Chambres, etc. for the Ladies".So by 1823 this woman would probably have been a maker of
many assorted women's clothing items. Especially as the
mantua dress was considerably old fashioned by then.Kathleen Conery (professional costume designer by trade
myself)---- Original message ----
>Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:10:47 -0500
>From: John Garst <[unmask]>
>Subject: Mantua maker
>To: [unmask]
>
>Off topic, since there is no connected ballad, but in fact
I'm
>looking into this in connection with a piece I'm writing
on "Delia,"
>so there is a roundabout connection.
>
>The 1823 census of Savannah, Georgia, gives "Mantua Maker"
as the
>occupation of a free woman of color.
>
>I'm mystified.  What does a mantua maker make?
>
>John

In simple terms she was a dressmaker. A mantua is defined as "a loose
fitting woman's gown, generally with a train" and a mantua maker as "a
dress maker in general, not limited to mantuas."John Garst wrote:> Off topic, since there is no connected ballad, but in fact I'm
> looking into this in connection with a piece I'm writing on "Delia,"
> so there is a roundabout connection.
>
> The 1823 census of Savannah, Georgia, gives "Mantua Maker" as the
> occupation of a free woman of color.
>
> I'm mystified.  What does a mantua maker make?
>
> John
>

Heather:Be aware: Reading Georgette Heyer can lead to a severe case of diabetes.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Heather Wood <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, January 14, 2005 8:19 am
Subject: Re: Mantua maker> In a message dated 1/14/2005 11:12:36 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> [unmask] writes:
> What does a mantua maker make?
> a mantua is a lady's cloak or mantle. Read more Georgette Heyer.
>
> Heather
>

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Dear Gerald,John Goodluck has a crowscarer's song (The Crow Boy) on one of his 33rpm
records. Unfortunately as I have just smashed my ribcage against the
bath after a spectacular ass-over-tit somersault on a wet tile, I'm not
sufficiently elastic to go hunting for it, but if you'd like a copy I
can send it to you with the help of various family members!AndyGerald Porter wrote:
>
> Does anyone know any birdscarers' songs? Birdscaring used to be a job for
> children in the country (Bob Copper, for example, remembered having to do it),
> and there are many accounts of the (often quite elaborate) cries that went with
> it. Joseph Andrews and Jude the Obscure are described as having had to do it
> when they were young. Sharp and Kidson found a couple of examples. Roy Palmer
> conveniently printed four in The Painful Plough, but I don't know of any
> recordings in any language.
>
> Can anyone help?
>
> Gerald Porter

<http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/14/verizon_email_block/>Given Verizon's appalling past record of assisting spammers
themselves, this is just bizarre.I hope Dick has lined up an alternate provider to move to?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the
person of Jack Campin, writes:> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/14/verizon_email_block/>I have a customer in Berlin (the one in Europe), from which I received
email on 10, 12, and 14 December via Verizon DSL.  It seems,
therefore, that the block is not complete.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  If you rest on your laurels, you're wearing them in the  :||
||:  wrong place.                                             :||

As a small business that deals overseas, CAMSCO is much concerned about
this. Could a couple of  list members from  UK and other parts of Europe
send test messages to [unmask] I'd like to find out whether or
not they're being blocked..Also--apparently any E-mail I send to Jack Campin is being blocked, and
I'd like to reach him concerning non-list business. Any suggestions, Jack?dick greenhausJoe Fineman wrote:>Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the
>person of Jack Campin, writes:
>
>
>
>><http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/14/verizon_email_block/>
>>
>>
>
>I have a customer in Berlin (the one in Europe), from which I received
>email on 10, 12, and 14 December via Verizon DSL.  It seems,
>therefore, that the block is not complete.
>--
>---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
>||:  If you rest on your laurels, you're wearing them in the  :||
>||:  wrong place.                                             :||
>
>
>
>

Dick et al:Which/what message was blocked?  I recall nothing from Camsco in the past few days.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, January 15, 2005 7:27 am
Subject: Re: Verizon block> As a small business that deals overseas, CAMSCO is much concerned
> aboutthis. Could a couple of  list members from  UK and other parts
> of Europe
> send test messages to [unmask] I'd like to find out whether or
> not they're being blocked..
>
> Also--apparently any E-mail I send to Jack Campin is being blocked,
> andI'd like to reach him concerning non-list business. Any
> suggestions, Jack?
>
> dick greenhaus
>
> Joe Fineman wrote:
>
> >Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the
> >person of Jack Campin, writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >><http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/14/verizon_email_block/>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I have a customer in Berlin (the one in Europe), from which I
> received>email on 10, 12, and 14 December via Verizon DSL.  It seems,
> >therefore, that the block is not complete.
> >--
> >---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
> >
> >||:  If you rest on your laurels, you're wearing them in the  :||
> >||:  wrong place.                                             :||
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

> There was an Irish ballad that appeared on sheets printed by
> Joseph Haly of Cork called The Dandy Mantua Maker.There is also a Scottish fiddle tune by William Marshall called
"The De'il Among the Mantua-Makers" - "Named so, at the request
of a Lady in Moray-shire".Mantuas were a statement of social class. Plebeian Scottish
women wore plaids.  Mantuas were for the bourgeoisie and upper
classes.  There are surviving tickets for dance assemblies in
18th century Edinburgh that say "No Plaids".  Club bouncers
who check your clothing labels before they let you in have a
long pedigree.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Yes, the Steel Guitar player as listed on my copy of the original
Couterpoint-Esoteric LP
is Artie Rose.Jane Keefer----- Original Message -----
From: "bennett schwartz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, January 15, 2005 12:34 PM
Subject: Was it Artie Rose?I have been burning CD's from some of my old LP's and 78's.  One of the LP's
is the Archive of Folk Music (FS-208) "Harry and Jeanie West".
There's an uncredited Dobro player on 6 of the tracks that I always thought
sounded like Artie Rose (you can hear him on Folkways FA 2475 "The Old
Reliable String Band", a really good example of what was then (1963) called
"Old-Timey").  Soon after buying that LP I wrote Everest Records and asked
just that: who was the Dobro player?  They answered that they didn't keep
records of the studio musicians on their releases.  I'd like to keep my own
records straight and perhaps give credit if I ever index this LP.  While
there are still some of us around who remember the people involved has
anyone any ideas on this?Ben Schwartz

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On Saturday, January 15, 2005 9:05 PM  Thomas Stern wrote more information
about the Wests that I missed on the first reading.Thanks again.  I'll have to save your note. I know I once had an LP where Harry sang Willow Garden and Jeanie sang
Knoxville Girl
(which, I remember, disappointed me because I thought she did a great job on
Willow Garden and his Knowxville Girl and Red Rocking Chair always knocked
me out).Thanks yet again.
Ben Schwartz

Hi,
The Harry and Jeanie West of the recordings are the
selfsame individual(s) who sell vintage and new
instruments.  They advertise in specialty journals,
such as the Banjo Newsletter.  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>> There is also a Scottish fiddle tune by William Marshall called
>> "The De'il Among the Mantua-Makers" - "Named so, at the request
>> of a Lady in Moray-shire".
> Anything like "The Deil amang the Tailors"?It's another reel in A.  They would work reasonably well together
in the same set:X:1
T:The De'il Among the Mantua-Makers
C:William Marshall
M:C|
L:1/8
Q:1/2=112
K:A
~c3 d edcd|efga fedc|~c3 d edcd|fedc  c2B2:|
~E3 G BGEG|ABcd ecAc| E3 G BGEA|cAec Tc2B2 |
 E3 G BGEG|ABcd ecAc| dfdB cecA|dBAG  A2A2|]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

The Verizon block seems to apply to Demon (god alone knows why, Demon
have always had far tougher anti-spam policies than Verizon could
possibly imagine).  I sent a reply to a message I got from Dick but
got no reply in return, so it looks like I'm not getting through.I have an account on Google's mail service so I'll try that next -
unfortunately it's so pernickety about what browser it accepts
that I have to plug in a different computer to use it, nothing on
my usual machine works.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

Google's lastest is Google search of your own computer (or dual search on
your computer plus the web).  Once it has a chance to index your computer,
it looks inside docs & spreadsheets & (certain) email for words/phrases same
as a web search.  Takes a few seconds to do a full text search of your
computer.  Where did I put that floating verse?So far, I think it actually only searches Microsoft & text-extension & HTML
type files - probably not DT or Bal Index but still...  just searching the
indices of my "books" is great.  Have fun.http://desktop.google.com/-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida