We are infact ten minutes from Baltimore Washington Airport!
Lots of room to stay free and plenty of food!CBSimon Furey wrote:> Sounds almost worth crossing the pond for! Alas....
> Cheers
> Simon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Conrad Bladey Peasant
> Sent: 07 December 2004 16:30
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: W A S S A I L !!!!
>
> G R E E T I N G S !
>                        Potential Wassailers
>
> As you may know......your peasant friends in Linthicum are very much
> dedicated to wassailing. Second only to Guy Fawkes Day! We already have
> a one of a kind hymnal of wassail tunes and customs on the market and
> the big book can not be all that far off. So we are very into it! So we
> need your help! Wassailers are wanted and in numbers.....you cant have a
> good wassail with just a few! It is our hope that each of you will round
> up a number of others and drag them out! Rain, Snow, sleet, or shine....
> Actually it is best when snowing. If you cant drive home we will let you
> stay here.
>
> The one thing that is wonderful about Wassail is that it occurs at 12th
> night. Therefore......it is the true last day of Christmas....and your
> other obligations should be taken care of! Or at least we hope they are!
>   The other good thing is that there are two potential dates of
> significance- 12th night which is January 6 (we will move it to Jan 8)
> and Old 12th night January 17 ( we will move it to January 15) Both are
> Saturdays. In either case it will take place around 5:pm with food and
> wassail when dark......
>
> How to decide- simple......
> I will take a vote via rsvp. reply to this e.mail or send your choice of
> dates. January 8 or January 15. If it doesnt matter to you let me know
> that too. The greatest number of votes decides! For planning purposes I
> need to have your responses in by High Noon Monday December 19.
>
> I will get right back to everyone.
>
> Important- circulate this e.mail everywhere you wish! It takes a lot of
> potential wassailers to get an appropriately large crew out.
>
> What do we do exactly? Well glad you asked- it is all below:
>
> For those of you who do not have a clue about wassailing......
> Our web page which has been up for some years now and is growing.....has
> everything you need to know!
> http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5567/wassail.html
>
> We also have a wassail shop! Check out the wondrous wassailer geer!
> http://www.cafepress.com/wassailshop
>
> Wassailing is not just going door to door. We practice a combination of
> wassailing the trees out back and wassail in the hall. Our celebration
> is also not just alcoholic. We do a fantastic alcohol free mulled cider!
> But of course we do the traditional wassails as well as smoking bishop...
>
> The plan is as follows-
>
> 1. Guests bring some sort of food item - seasonal snack or salad or
> whatever. Contributions of beer and ale also great. (Optional!) Guests
> can also bring a liquour to share- for
> example-Baileys,Jagermeister.....we put these on a communal table. Bring
> a bottle to share and if you want you can even trade bottles on the way
> out- so pick something fun and new...if you dont like it trade it
> off..of course we have hot chocolate etc....
> 2. I cook meat pies in the british style as well as toad in the holes.
> 3. There are two ritual cakes dedicated to wassail tradition. We bake those.
> 4. Out back there is a fire with a cauldron over it filled with apples
> and wassail spices. (this year we got the cauldron fixed so it can be
> properly suspended at  the right height- the last time we vaporized the
> wassail! ) The wassail is heated and then we toss in the ingredients-
> guests toss in spices and last comes in the roasting hot apples which
> sputter and explode in the wassail-great fun.
> 5. No wassail would be complete without mumming- we hope to have enough
> folks to do a mumming play. Dont worry I have the lines on cards....
> 6. Of course there is music. Practice maybe....not necessary as I have
> words and music for that. Bring instruments.....
> 7. We shall all shout and let off fireworks and beat the fruit tree
> offering it up a piece of bread soaked in wassail!
>
> Any questions- give a shout. 410-789-0930  [unmask]
>
> Hope to see you all around the wassail bowl! /Try to get the rsvps in
> asap even if you cant do either....thanks!
> Conrad
> --
> Adam Lay Ybounden
> Adam lay ybounden, bounden in a bond; four thousand winter thought he
> not too long.
> And all was for an apple, an apple that he took, as clerkes finden
> written in their book.
> Ne had the able taken been, the apple taken been,
> Ne had never our lady abeen heavene queen.
> Blessed be the time that apple taken was,
> therefore we mourn singen Deo Gracias!- Sloan MS (15 Century)
> for music go here:
> http://www.channel1.com/users/gsilvis/mids/warladam.mid
>
> ****************************************************************************
> ***************
> What is the Crying at Jordan
> What is the crying at Jordan? Who Hears, O God, the prophesy?
> Dark is the season, dark our hearts and shut to mystery.
> Who then shall stir in this darkness, prepare for joy in the winter night?
> Mortal in darkness we lie down, blind-hearted seeing no light.
> Lord, give us grace to awake us, to see the branch that begins to bloom;
> in great humility is hid all heaven in a little room
> Now comes the day of salvation, in joy and terror the Word is born!
> God gives himself into our lives;
> O let salvation dawn!- Carol Christopher Drake
> ______________________________________________________________
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.942 (20041207) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.nod32.com--
Adam Lay Ybounden
Adam lay ybounden, bounden in a bond; four thousand winter thought he
not too long.
And all was for an apple, an apple that he took, as clerkes finden
written in their book.
Ne had the able taken been, the apple taken been,
Ne had never our lady abeen heavene queen.
Blessed be the time that apple taken was,
therefore we mourn singen Deo Gracias!- Sloan MS (15 Century)
for music go here:
http://www.channel1.com/users/gsilvis/mids/warladam.mid*******************************************************************************************
What is the Crying at Jordan
What is the crying at Jordan? Who Hears, O God, the prophesy?
Dark is the season, dark our hearts and shut to mystery.
Who then shall stir in this darkness, prepare for joy in the winter night?
Mortal in darkness we lie down, blind-hearted seeing no light.
Lord, give us grace to awake us, to see the branch that begins to bloom;
in great humility is hid all heaven in a little room
Now comes the day of salvation, in joy and terror the Word is born!
God gives himself into our lives;
O let salvation dawn!- Carol Christopher Drake
______________________________________________________________

Good Morning Ballad Hunters,  I am an Australian folklorist, author and performer, and since I am
new to the list I thought I'd introduce myself.I have been collecting folklore since the late 1960s and have a
particular interest in Australian ballads, especially what we refer to
as 'bush ballads' and, of course, any
of the 'big' British and Celtic ballads that found their way to
Australia. I came across this site via John Mehlberg and Ed Cray.I am always interested in songs that have a reference to Australia and
would appreciate any such devils in case you see one.Surprisingly, considering the American and Canadian examples, Australia
did not inherit a great many of the 'big' ballads. We were settled some
100 years later than America
so that would have something to do with it. Also the relatively small
number of field collectors here started late and had an understandably
narrow field - collecting bush related
songs was a priority. That said, there are Australian versions of the
Twa Corbies, Barbara Allen, our Goodman, Green Bushes, Polly Vaughan
etc - and I should add, very
distinctively Australian showing yet another wonder of the folk
transmission proccess.I have just completed a major study on our most important pioneer
collecting work - a book published in 1905 under the title The Old Bush
Songs - songs from the 19th
century and collected together by our great poet Banjo Paterson. I have
co-edited the Centenary Edition of this book with fellow folklorist,
Graham Seal. It will be published
in 2005 by the ABC (our national broadcasting organisation).For those interested in Australian versions of the ballad family I can
recommend a 1950s LP that has recently been reissued on CD. It is
'Traditional Sings & Musicians of Victoria' -
originally released by Wattle Recordings and offers various traditional
singers. It is a wonderful resource and listening experience and one of
the very few opportunities to hear
Australian field recordings. Please contact me if you require ordering
info and I will pass this on.Also, on another matter, I will be performing in America, and hopefully
Canada, in mid 2005. I will be performing programs of Australian bush
songs, ballads, verse etc plus
undertaking some college lectures. I would welcome any contacts for
possible engagements.If anyone is curious about Australian folklore I would suggest my site
as a good starting point. It is relatively new however it does feature
the following:
+ Transcriptions of my field recordings including songs, verse, ditties
etc from the 1970s onwards - see Australian Folklore Unit - people.
+ Current collecting on the Folklore of Sydney project
+ Selected essays on Australian folklore
+ Information on my performance and recording including live sound
bites on some songs.
address:  www.warrenfahey.comI look forward to lively discussion on your valued site.Warren Fahey

Dick Please count me in for the above.
----- Original Message -----
From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Alisa MacAlias-Hamish Henderson republished> Hi y'all-
> If there's any interest in this, I can order some in. I'm noy sure
> exactly what my shipping costs would be, but I can likely sell it for
> about $23 (+media mail shipping.)
> Please let me know if you want a copy--I'm too tight on cash to order
> extra copies for stock. That's as opposed to $29.14 (?14.99) + overseas
> shipping.
>
> BTW-
> I'm still waiting for EFDSS to quote me on the Sharp US songbook. I'll
> post a price as soon as I hear.
>
> dick greenhaus
> CAMSCO Music
> [unmask]
> 800/548-FOLK (3655)
>
>
>
>
> Thomas Stern wrote:
>
> > This has just been published in a revised edition:
> >
http://www.birlinn.co.uk/cgi-bin/user/birlinn/store/BRNstore.cgi?user_action=detail&catalogno=1904598218
> >
> >
<http://www.birlinn.co.uk/cgi-bin/user/birlinn/store/BRNstore.cgi?user_actio
n=detail&catalogno=1904598218>
> >
> >
> >

Around the Hills of Clare CD now availableEagle-eyed readers who were wondering about the gap between MTCD329-0 and MTCD333 need puzzle no more.  We are proud to announce that our latest CD - Around the Hills of Clare (MTCD331-2) is now available.This is a compilation of songs and a recitation from Jim Carroll and Pat Mackenzie's 1973-2004 recordings of 16 singers from west Co Clare, and includes Tom Lenihan, Nora Cleary, Straighty Flanagan, Ollie Conway, Martin Howley ...Not only is this our second collaboration with Jim and Pat (From Puck to Appleby was the first), but also our second collaboration with another record company (the first being with both Topic and Cl?Iar Chonnachta, over the Joe Heaney double CD, back in 2000).  In this case we are working with Dublin's An G?l? traditional singers' club, so the CDs also bear the number G?l? 005-6.  We did the booklet and packaging, they did the CDs and production/printing.  They are selling them in Ireland, whilst we deal with the 'rest of the world' from the MT Records website.The CDs come in the familiar DVD case together with a 44-page integral booklet.  You get 2 CDs, with 47 tracks in total, and 156 minutes of singing - and a recitation! - all for just ?16.00 inc. p&p.Just in time for Christmas!All the very best ..........Rod Stradling
Musical Traditions Records
with on-line credit/debit card purchasing at:
www.mtrecords.co.uk
Musical Traditions Internet Magazine at:
www.mustrad.org.uk
1 Castle Street, Stroud, Glos  GL5 2HP, UK
01453 759475
[unmask]Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

Hello, Warren:
Thanks for the information about music in Australia; much appreciated.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "Warren Fahey" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 2:22 PM
Subject: Ballads Down Under> Good Morning Ballad Hunters,
>
>   I am an Australian folklorist, author and performer, and since I am
> new to the list I thought I'd introduce myself.
>
> I have been collecting folklore since the late 1960s and have a
> particular interest in Australian ballads, especially what we refer to
> as 'bush ballads' and, of course, any
> of the 'big' British and Celtic ballads that found their way to
> Australia. I came across this site via John Mehlberg and Ed Cray.
>
> I am always interested in songs that have a reference to Australia and
> would appreciate any such devils in case you see one.
>
> Surprisingly, considering the American and Canadian examples, Australia
> did not inherit a great many of the 'big' ballads. We were settled some
> 100 years later than America
> so that would have something to do with it. Also the relatively small
> number of field collectors here started late and had an understandably
> narrow field - collecting bush related
> songs was a priority. That said, there are Australian versions of the
> Twa Corbies, Barbara Allen, our Goodman, Green Bushes, Polly Vaughan
> etc - and I should add, very
> distinctively Australian showing yet another wonder of the folk
> transmission proccess.
>
> I have just completed a major study on our most important pioneer
> collecting work - a book published in 1905 under the title The Old Bush
> Songs - songs from the 19th
> century and collected together by our great poet Banjo Paterson. I have
> co-edited the Centenary Edition of this book with fellow folklorist,
> Graham Seal. It will be published
> in 2005 by the ABC (our national broadcasting organisation).
>
> For those interested in Australian versions of the ballad family I can
> recommend a 1950s LP that has recently been reissued on CD. It is
> 'Traditional Sings & Musicians of Victoria' -
> originally released by Wattle Recordings and offers various traditional
> singers. It is a wonderful resource and listening experience and one of
> the very few opportunities to hear
> Australian field recordings. Please contact me if you require ordering
> info and I will pass this on.
>
> Also, on another matter, I will be performing in America, and hopefully
> Canada, in mid 2005. I will be performing programs of Australian bush
> songs, ballads, verse etc plus
> undertaking some college lectures. I would welcome any contacts for
> possible engagements.
>
> If anyone is curious about Australian folklore I would suggest my site
> as a good starting point. It is relatively new however it does feature
> the following:
> + Transcriptions of my field recordings including songs, verse, ditties
> etc from the 1970s onwards - see Australian Folklore Unit - people.
> + Current collecting on the Folklore of Sydney project
> + Selected essays on Australian folklore
> + Information on my performance and recording including live sound
> bites on some songs.
> address:  www.warrenfahey.com
>
> I look forward to lively discussion on your valued site.
>
> Warren Fahey
>

Hi folks:I'm forwarding a query from Elijah Wald, who want to know about "On Top of
Old Smoky". He asks:<<For an upcoming Dave Van Ronk release for which I'm doing the liner
notes, I am looking for information about the origins of "On Top of Old
Smoky."The earliest recording I know is by Libby Holman, with Josh White on
guitar, in 1942. I gather that Libby got much of her folk repertoire
from Alan Lomax, but do not have my reference books handy, and don't
know if he had published the song before that. From there, it was recorded by Hally Wood with Pete Seeger for Lomax's
radio ballad opera "The Martins and the Coys," and later by the Weavers
and Burl Ives.But where and when was it collected, and who produced the version we all
know? Anyone on the ballad list care to post a query for me?>>I've told him what I know, which is essentially what's in the Traditional
Ballad Index, including the 1929 recordings by Bradley Kincaid and George
Reneau. Can anyone add to that? Oh, and does anyone remember the version
from Wyman & Brockway's 1920 book? How close is that to the canonical
revival version?Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 01:20:19 -0600, Paul Stamler wrote:><<For an upcoming Dave Van Ronk release for which I'm doing the liner
>notes, I am looking for information about the origins of "On Top of Old
>Smoky."
>
>The earliest recording I know is by Libby Holman, with Josh White on
>guitar, in 1942. I gather that Libby got much of her folk repertoire
>from Alan Lomax, but do not have my reference books handy, and don't
>know if he had published the song before that.I'd be very interested in the answer to this, myself.  The standard lore
that comes with the song is that it was Abraham Lincoln's favorite.  I've
never seen any citations for that claim, however.Having a quick whip around the US sheet music collections (Indiana, Duke,
Levy, Amer Mem, Civil War) I am surprised to find nothing useful.  Just two
recent ones at Indiana.Always helpful Jane Keefer, however,
http://www.ibiblio.org/folkindex/ti_frset.htm reminds me this is much of a
floater & so it all depends.  She gives as direct or associated other
titles:
        Rt - Rambling (Rambler) Gambler  ; I'm Troubled, I'm Troubled  ;
Goin' to Georgia  ; Waggoner's/Wagoner's Lad  ; Unconstant Lover  ; Rebel
Soldier  ; I'm Sad and I'm Lonesome/Lonely  ; Warning to Girls  ; Go Away
From Me, Willie  ; Forsaken Lover
        Rm - Who Knows Right from Wrong
        Sm - Little Mohee/Mohea
        Mf - Silk Merchant's Daughter ; Song of the Coulee Dam ; Way Down in
Old Parchman ; Sidi Slimane ; Administration Blues
        Pb - On Top of Spaghetti ; On Top of a Mountain ; On Top of Old
Baldy ; Come All You Young Menand gives, among many newer ones:
Scarborough, Dorothy / A Song Catcher in the Southern Mountains, AMS, Bk
(1937/1966), p278,430 (Old Smokey/Smokie/Smoky)and two versions in  Sharp & Karpeles / English Folk Songs from the Southern
Appalachians II, Oxford, Bk (1932/1917), p123/# 117A (as
Waggoner's/Wagoner's Lad)Lomax, 1960 cites On Top of... and gives M Henry, _Folksongs from the
Southern Highlands_, 1937.I'm _sure_ there are better/older sources.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Could you tell us who the publisher of the CD is?Fred McCormick wrote:> I don't know whether listers will be familiar with the LP which Warren
> mentions. However, I have had a copy this many long years and regard
> it as an absolutely essential item. It will be well worth the asking
> price, however much that turns out to be.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick
>
> In a message dated 07/12/2004 22:30:49 GMT Standard Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>
>     For those interested in Australian versions of the ballad family I can
>     recommend a 1950s LP that has recently been reissued on CD. It is
>     'Traditional Sings & Musicians of Victoria' -
>     originally released by Wattle Recordings and offers various
>     traditional
>     singers. It is a wonderful resource and listening experience and
>     one of
>     the very few opportunities to hear
>     Australian field recordings. Please contact me if you require ordering
>     info and I will pass this on.
>
>     Also, on another matter, I will be performing in America, and
>     hopefully
>     Canada, in mid 2005. I will be performing programs of Australian bush
>     songs, ballads, verse etc plus
>     undertaking some college lectures. I would welcome any contacts for
>     possible engagements.
>
>     If anyone is curious about Australian folklore I would suggest my site
>     as a good starting point. It is relatively new however it does feature
>     the following:
>     + Transcriptions of my field recordings including songs, verse,
>     ditties
>     etc from the 1970s onwards - see Australian Folklore Unit - people.
>     + Current collecting on the Folklore of Sydney project
>     + Selected essays on Australian folklore
>     + Information on my performance and recording including live sound
>     bites on some songs.
>     address:  www.warrenfahey.com
>
>     I look forward to lively discussion on your valued site.
>
>     Warren Fahey
>
>

The "pop" version, I believe, was recorded by Burl Ives in the early
1940s. I believe,but I'm not sure, that he sang in in yhe 1939 Broadway
produtction of "Sing Out, Sweet Land"Paul Stamler wrote:>Hi folks:
>
>I'm forwarding a query from Elijah Wald, who want to know about "On Top of
>Old Smoky". He asks:
>
><<For an upcoming Dave Van Ronk release for which I'm doing the liner
>notes, I am looking for information about the origins of "On Top of Old
>Smoky."
>
>The earliest recording I know is by Libby Holman, with Josh White on
>guitar, in 1942. I gather that Libby got much of her folk repertoire
>from Alan Lomax, but do not have my reference books handy, and don't
>know if he had published the song before that.
>
> From there, it was recorded by Hally Wood with Pete Seeger for Lomax's
>radio ballad opera "The Martins and the Coys," and later by the Weavers
>and Burl Ives.
>
>But where and when was it collected, and who produced the version we all
>know? Anyone on the ballad list care to post a query for me?>>
>
>I've told him what I know, which is essentially what's in the Traditional
>Ballad Index, including the 1929 recordings by Bradley Kincaid and George
>Reneau. Can anyone add to that? Oh, and does anyone remember the version
>from Wyman & Brockway's 1920 book? How close is that to the canonical
>revival version?
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>
>
>
>

WarrenCan you tell us if the Larrikin Records will eventually be re-issued on
CDs? Your 2 new CDs Larrikins, Louts and Layabouts and A Panorama of
Bush Songs that I got through Folk Trax (http://www.folktrax.com/) were
enjoyed and promoted me to wonder about the wealth of records on the
Larrikin Label that I  enjoyed in the 70s and 80s.George F Madaus
Professor Emeritus
Boston CollegeOn Dec 8, 2004, at 6:42 AM, dick greenhaus wrote:> Could you tell us who the publisher of the CD is?
>
>
>
> Fred McCormick wrote:
>
>> I don't know whether listers will be familiar with the LP which Warren
>> mentions. However, I have had a copy this many long years and regard
>> it as an absolutely essential item. It will be well worth the asking
>> price, however much that turns out to be.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Fred McCormick
>>
>> In a message dated 07/12/2004 22:30:49 GMT Standard Time,
>> [unmask] writes:
>>
>>
>>     For those interested in Australian versions of the ballad family
>> I can
>>     recommend a 1950s LP that has recently been reissued on CD. It is
>>     'Traditional Sings & Musicians of Victoria' -
>>     originally released by Wattle Recordings and offers various
>>     traditional
>>     singers. It is a wonderful resource and listening experience and
>>     one of
>>     the very few opportunities to hear
>>     Australian field recordings. Please contact me if you require
>> ordering
>>     info and I will pass this on.
>>
>>     Also, on another matter, I will be performing in America, and
>>     hopefully
>>     Canada, in mid 2005. I will be performing programs of Australian
>> bush
>>     songs, ballads, verse etc plus
>>     undertaking some college lectures. I would welcome any contacts
>> for
>>     possible engagements.
>>
>>     If anyone is curious about Australian folklore I would suggest my
>> site
>>     as a good starting point. It is relatively new however it does
>> feature
>>     the following:
>>     + Transcriptions of my field recordings including songs, verse,
>>     ditties
>>     etc from the 1970s onwards - see Australian Folklore Unit -
>> people.
>>     + Current collecting on the Folklore of Sydney project
>>     + Selected essays on Australian folklore
>>     + Information on my performance and recording including live sound
>>     bites on some songs.
>>     address:  www.warrenfahey.com
>>
>>     I look forward to lively discussion on your valued site.
>>
>>     Warren Fahey
>>
>>

Hello everyone,"Old Smoky" can be found in "Songs and Rhymes from the South" by
E. C. Perrow published in the 1915 Journal of American Folklore
on pg 159. (see page image here:
http://immortalia.com/old-smoky.jpg , text below).If you are interested learning about E.C.Perrow collection, you
can order photocopies for 10 cents a copy from
http://www.berea.edu/library/Special/saafindaid/saa67series9-16.html#series12
I recommend getting copies of the Negro Songs folder.
Interesting stuff there.Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~
My, mostly traditional, bawdy songs, toasts and recitations
website: www.immortalia.com
~15. OLD SMOKY.
(From North Carolina; mountain whites; MS. written for E. N.
Caldwell; 1913.)On the top of old Smoky all covered in snow
I lost my true lover by sparking too slow.1Sparking is a pleasure, parting is a grief,
And a false hearted is worse than a thief.A thief will only rob you, will take what you have,
And a false-hearted lover will take you to the grave.The grave will only decay you, turn you to dust;
There's not one boy in a hundred a poor girl can trust.They will tell you they love you to give your heart ease,
And as soon as your back's upon them they'll court who they
please."It's a raining, it's a hailing; that moon gives no light;
Your horses can't travel this dark lonesome night."Go put up your horses, feed them some hay;
Come and set down here by me, love, as long as you stay.""My horses are not hungry, they won't eat your hay:
So farewell, my little darling! I'll feed on my way."I will drive on to Georgia, write you my mind;
My mind is to marry, love, and leave you behind."Your parents is against me; mine is the same;
If I'm down on your book, love, please rub off my name.""I go upon old Smoky on the mountain so high,
Where the wild birds and the turtle-dove can hear my sad cry.""As sure as the dew drops grows on the green corn,
Last night I were with her, but to-night she is gone."1  Compare this Journal, vol. xx, p. 273.2  The vowel in this word is pronounced like that in "lies," so
that there is perfect
assonance.----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 1:20 AM
Subject: Old Smokey?Hi folks:I'm forwarding a query from Elijah Wald, who want to know about
"On Top of Old Smoky". He asks:<<For an upcoming Dave Van Ronk release for which I'm doing the
liner notes, I am looking for information about the origins of
"On Top of Old Smoky."The earliest recording I know is by Libby Holman, with Josh White
on guitar, in 1942. I gather that Libby got much of her folk
repertoire from Alan Lomax, but do not have my reference books
handy, and don't know if he had published the song before that.From there, it was recorded by Hally Wood with Pete Seeger for
Lomax's radio ballad opera "The Martins and the Coys," and later
by the Weavers and Burl Ives.But where and when was it collected, and who produced the version
we all know? Anyone on the ballad list care to post a query for
me?>>I've told him what I know, which is essentially what's in the
Traditional Ballad Index, including the 1929 recordings by
Bradley Kincaid and George Reneau. Can anyone add to that? Oh,
and does anyone remember the version from Wyman & Brockway's 1920
book? How close is that to the canonical revival version?Peace,
Paul

"Country Music Sources"  earliest reference is to the Journal Of
American Folklore XXVIII (1915) p. 159.Paul Stamler wrote:>Hi folks:
>
>I'm forwarding a query from Elijah Wald, who want to know about "On Top of
>Old Smoky". He asks:
>
><<For an upcoming Dave Van Ronk release for which I'm doing the liner
>notes, I am looking for information about the origins of "On Top of Old
>Smoky."
>
>The earliest recording I know is by Libby Holman, with Josh White on
>guitar, in 1942. I gather that Libby got much of her folk repertoire
>from Alan Lomax, but do not have my reference books handy, and don't
>know if he had published the song before that.
>
> From there, it was recorded by Hally Wood with Pete Seeger for Lomax's
>radio ballad opera "The Martins and the Coys," and later by the Weavers
>and Burl Ives.
>
>But where and when was it collected, and who produced the version we all
>know? Anyone on the ballad list care to post a query for me?>>
>
>I've told him what I know, which is essentially what's in the Traditional
>Ballad Index, including the 1929 recordings by Bradley Kincaid and George
>Reneau. Can anyone add to that? Oh, and does anyone remember the version
>from Wyman & Brockway's 1920 book? How close is that to the canonical
>revival version?
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>
>
>

Just for fun and your interest I collected an Australian parody of On
Top Of Old Smokey - it dates from early 1940s and is titled ON TOP OF
NO SMOKING and is an anti budget song
I recorded a version of the song on the CD 'Larrikins, Louts &
layabouts'On top of no smoking
Because of the cost,
They're taxing our drinking,
Our pleasures are lost.For drinking's a pleasure
And thirsting's a grief,
And old Artie Fadden (he was federal treasurer)
Is worse than a thiefA thief will just rob you
and turn you to dust
Not one boss in a hundred
A worker can trust.They'll hug you and kiss you
and tell you all lies
But we don't believe them
Because we've got wiseWe've had Artie Fadden
We''ve had Menzies too (he was PM)
With all dinkum Aussies
They're just about through.So come all you fellows
and young maidens too
We'll tell Bob and Artie
Just what they can do.Let's throw out their budget
High prices will cease
Then we'll get a Government
That can lead us to peace.On 09/12/2004, at 1:51 AM, dick greenhaus wrote:> The "pop" version, I believe, was recorded by Burl Ives in the early
> 1940s. I believe,but I'm not sure, that he sang in in yhe 1939 Broadway
> produtction of "Sing Out, Sweet Land"
>
> Paul Stamler wrote:
>
>> Hi folks:
>>
>> I'm forwarding a query from Elijah Wald, who want to know about "On
>> Top of
>> Old Smoky". He asks:
>>
>> <<For an upcoming Dave Van Ronk release for which I'm doing the liner
>> notes, I am looking for information about the origins of "On Top of
>> Old
>> Smoky."
>>
>> The earliest recording I know is by Libby Holman, with Josh White on
>> guitar, in 1942. I gather that Libby got much of her folk repertoire
>> from Alan Lomax, but do not have my reference books handy, and don't
>> know if he had published the song before that.
>>
>> From there, it was recorded by Hally Wood with Pete Seeger for Lomax's
>> radio ballad opera "The Martins and the Coys," and later by the
>> Weavers
>> and Burl Ives.
>>
>> But where and when was it collected, and who produced the version we
>> all
>> know? Anyone on the ballad list care to post a query for me?>>
>>
>> I've told him what I know, which is essentially what's in the
>> Traditional
>> Ballad Index, including the 1929 recordings by Bradley Kincaid and
>> George
>> Reneau. Can anyone add to that? Oh, and does anyone remember the
>> version
>> from Wyman & Brockway's 1920 book? How close is that to the canonical
>> revival version?
>>
>> Peace,
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Hello GeorgeI remember your name well - pleased to make your reacquaintence.
I suspect Larrikin is a lost cause - Rupert Murdoch bought it because
he wanted me and when I left at the end of 1999 the label slipped into
the master tape dungeon.
At least the ABC released the two discs you now have. I hope they will
do more with me but who knows.On the Folktrax site there's a couple i'd recommend - Ard Tack by Danny
Spooner and there's one by Dave De Hugard (who was on larrikin).
Apart from those I think it's hard pickings.What courses are you involved in at Boston? I am looking to visit
sometime in 05 and hope to do some talks.Best,Warren FaheyOn 09/12/2004, at 4:54 AM, George Madaus wrote:> Warren
>
> Can you tell us if the Larrikin Records will eventually be re-issued on
> CDs? Your 2 new CDs Larrikins, Louts and Layabouts and A Panorama of
> Bush Songs that I got through Folk Trax (http://www.folktrax.com/) were
> enjoyed and promoted me to wonder about the wealth of records on the
> Larrikin Label that I  enjoyed in the 70s and 80s.
>
>
> George F Madaus
> Professor Emeritus
> Boston College
>
> On Dec 8, 2004, at 6:42 AM, dick greenhaus wrote:
>
>> Could you tell us who the publisher of the CD is?
>>
>>
>>
>> Fred McCormick wrote:
>>
>>> I don't know whether listers will be familiar with the LP which
>>> Warren
>>> mentions. However, I have had a copy this many long years and regard
>>> it as an absolutely essential item. It will be well worth the asking
>>> price, however much that turns out to be.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Fred McCormick
>>>
>>> In a message dated 07/12/2004 22:30:49 GMT Standard Time,
>>> [unmask] writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>     For those interested in Australian versions of the ballad family
>>> I can
>>>     recommend a 1950s LP that has recently been reissued on CD. It is
>>>     'Traditional Sings & Musicians of Victoria' -
>>>     originally released by Wattle Recordings and offers various
>>>     traditional
>>>     singers. It is a wonderful resource and listening experience and
>>>     one of
>>>     the very few opportunities to hear
>>>     Australian field recordings. Please contact me if you require
>>> ordering
>>>     info and I will pass this on.
>>>
>>>     Also, on another matter, I will be performing in America, and
>>>     hopefully
>>>     Canada, in mid 2005. I will be performing programs of Australian
>>> bush
>>>     songs, ballads, verse etc plus
>>>     undertaking some college lectures. I would welcome any contacts
>>> for
>>>     possible engagements.
>>>
>>>     If anyone is curious about Australian folklore I would suggest my
>>> site
>>>     as a good starting point. It is relatively new however it does
>>> feature
>>>     the following:
>>>     + Transcriptions of my field recordings including songs, verse,
>>>     ditties
>>>     etc from the 1970s onwards - see Australian Folklore Unit -
>>> people.
>>>     + Current collecting on the Folklore of Sydney project
>>>     + Selected essays on Australian folklore
>>>     + Information on my performance and recording including live
>>> sound
>>>     bites on some songs.
>>>     address:  www.warrenfahey.com
>>>
>>>     I look forward to lively discussion on your valued site.
>>>
>>>     Warren Fahey
>>>
>>>
>

    Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the
person of John Mehlberg, quotes:> 15. OLD SMOKY.
> (From North Carolina; mountain whites; MS. written for E. N.
> Caldwell; 1913.)
>
> On the top of old Smoky all covered in snow
> I lost my true lover by sparking too slow.1
>
> Sparking is a pleasure, parting is a grief,
> And a false hearted is worse than a thief.
>
> A thief will only rob you, will take what you have,
> And a false-hearted lover will take you to the grave.
>
> The grave will only decay you, turn you to dust;
> There's not one boy in a hundred a poor girl can trust.
>
> They will tell you they love you to give your heart ease,
> And as soon as your back's upon them they'll court who they please.Here is where it breaks off from the popular version.  The stanza that
IMO is the song's main claim to poetry,  They'll hug you and kiss you and tell you more lies
  Than the crossties in the railroad or the stars in the skies,is missing, and from here on we get stanzas reminiscent of "The
Wagoner's Lad" (which came first)?  The sequence of speeches
(meticulously marked off by the editor's close quotes) is peculiar.
The girl to the boy:> "It's a raining, it's a hailing; that moon gives no light;
> Your horses can't travel this dark lonesome night.
>
> "Go put up your horses, feed them some hay;
> Come and set down here by me, love, as long as you stay."He replies:> "My horses are not hungry, they won't eat your hay:
> So farewell, my little darling! I'll feed on my way.
>
> "I will drive on to Georgia, write you my mind;
> My mind is to marry, love, and leave you behind.
>
> "Your parents is against me; mine is the same;
> If I'm down on your book, love, please rub off my name."Then the girl, with the boy gone:> "I go upon old Smoky on the mountain so high,
> Where the wild birds and the turtle-dove can hear my sad cry."And then the boy, with the girl (originally the narrator!) gone:> "As sure as the dew drops grows on the green corn,
> Last night I were with her, but to-night she is gone."That one's pretty, anyway.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Entities exist promiscuously.  :||

This makes methink of "On Top of Spaghetti", created by children, snd was
sung about 30  years ago at a party at the then-new University of  California,
San Diego,by the father (a well-known folksinger) of one of the first graduates.
Here's how it started:"On top of spaghetti all covered with cheese,
I lost my poor meatball when somebody sneezed.
It rolled off the table, and onto the floor.
And then my poor meatball rolled out of the door.
It rolled through the garden and under a bush,
And then my poor meatball  was nothing but mush (rhymes with 'bush')."Thre were many parodies to this old song, one of them recorded by Michael
Cooney.Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

Folks:Now if we are going to veer off into parodies -- shame on you, Sam Hinton, for triggering my prurient interest  -- I will post this version of "Old Smoky":On top of old Rachel,
All covered with sweat,
I've used many rubbers,
And I haven't come yet.For fuckin's a pleasure,
And fartin's relief,
But a long-winded lover
Will bring you to grief.Incidentally, th earliest "Old Smoky," clean or otherwise, seems to be in E.C.Perrow's _Journal of American Folklore _ article of 1915.Ed

On 12/8/04, [unmask] wrote:>This makes methink of "On Top of Spaghetti", created by children, snd was
>sung about 30  years ago at a party at the then-new University of  California,
>San Diego,by the father (a well-known folksinger) of one of the first graduates.
>Here's how it started:
>
>"On top of spaghetti all covered with cheese,
>I lost my poor meatball when somebody sneezed.
>It rolled off the table, and onto the floor.
>And then my poor meatball rolled out of the door.
>It rolled through the garden and under a bush,
>And then my poor meatball  was nothing but mush (rhymes with 'bush')."This is more than thirty years old. There was an old kids' TV show
in our area in which they dramatized this, with the meatball going
on its travels. (I'm not kidding.) I don't know when this was, but
I was young enough to be watching daytime kids' TV; that probably
makes me about five. Certainly no more than eight. So the item is
at least 35 years old.And presumably, unless the TV staff invented it (which seems
unlikely), it had had to have time to circulate to the TV station.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Who put the popular tune for Old Smoky to its words?Is it traditional?Or did Pete Seeger et al. simply adopt the second half of Little
Mohee as the Old Smoky tune?John

If we're on parodies, there's one that was circulating  right after
Douglas MacArthur left the Arrmy--On top of a building
In a penthouse so high
There lives an old soldier
Who never did die.Steadfast and determined
In heart and in hand;
He's now fighting battles
For Remington Rand.Robert B. Waltz wrote:>On 12/8/04, [unmask] wrote:
>
>
>
>>This makes methink of "On Top of Spaghetti", created by children, snd was
>>sung about 30  years ago at a party at the then-new University of  California,
>>San Diego,by the father (a well-known folksinger) of one of the first graduates.
>>Here's how it started:
>>
>>"On top of spaghetti all covered with cheese,
>>I lost my poor meatball when somebody sneezed.
>>It rolled off the table, and onto the floor.
>>And then my poor meatball rolled out of the door.
>>It rolled through the garden and under a bush,
>>And then my poor meatball  was nothing but mush (rhymes with 'bush')."
>>
>>
>
>This is more than thirty years old. There was an old kids' TV show
>in our area in which they dramatized this, with the meatball going
>on its travels. (I'm not kidding.) I don't know when this was, but
>I was young enough to be watching daytime kids' TV; that probably
>makes me about five. Certainly no more than eight. So the item is
>at least 35 years old.
>
>And presumably, unless the TV staff invented it (which seems
>unlikely), it had had to have time to circulate to the TV station.
>
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz"On 12/8/04, [unmask] wrote:>This makes methink of "On Top of Spaghetti", created by children, snd was
>sung about 30  years ago at a party at the then-new University of
California,
>San Diego,by the father (a well-known folksinger) of one of the first
graduates.
>Here's how it started:
>
>"On top of spaghetti all covered with cheese,
>I lost my poor meatball when somebody sneezed.
>It rolled off the table, and onto the floor.
>And then my poor meatball rolled out of the door.
>It rolled through the garden and under a bush,
>And then my poor meatball  was nothing but mush (rhymes with 'bush')."<<This is more than thirty years old. There was an old kids' TV show
in our area in which they dramatized this, with the meatball going
on its travels. (I'm not kidding.) I don't know when this was, but
I was young enough to be watching daytime kids' TV; that probably
makes me about five. Certainly no more than eight. So the item is
at least 35 years old.And presumably, unless the TV staff invented it (which seems
unlikely), it had had to have time to circulate to the TV station.>>Older than that. I learned it someplace around fifth grade, which would have
been about 1960-1961.There's some documentary evidence. It shows up on an LP, "Tom Glazer's
Second Concert For and With Children", published by Wonderland Records,
produced by Bill Grauer Productions, Inc., better known in these circles for
Riverside Records. There's no date on the record, but he was active in the
late 50s - early 60s. And the address has no ZIP code, but a zone (New York
36, N.Y.), which dates it to before July 1, 1963.The album notes refer to the "recent sing-along fad", which would place it
c. 1961-1963 (in addition to the Folk Scare, there was a craze for singing
along with old pop songs, insipidly rendered by Mitch Miller and the Gang,
around that year). A Google reference places this recording in 1963,
presumably the first half.The notes also say, "...old favorites like 'I Know an Old Lady' and 'Haul
Away Joe' and brand-new items like 'On Top of Spaghetti'..." On the record,
several of the children (the album was recorded in concert) begin
spontaneously singing along in the first verse, indicating they already knew
the song. Several of the Google references cite Glazer as its composer, and
many of the obituaries begin by calling it his greatest hit. Whether he
created it from scratch, so to speak, or touched up something that was
already in circulation, is unknown, but my guess is he wrote it. *When* he
wrote it, given my 5th-grade memory, is still an open question, but he may
have been singing it in concert for a while before the Wonderland record
came out, and it thus could have been in circulation in the kids'
underground.Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi y'sll-
As some of you may know, I (CAMSCO Music) am in the process of
re-packaging many o Peter Kennedy's Folktrax CDs, to make them more
acceptable to the American market. I'll be posting a list of what's
available within the next few days.I have a problem, though--I'm trying to use a photo of the artist in the
packaging whenever possible, and the one Peter Kennedy has for Lucy
Stewart is a poor one. Does any of you have (or can tell me where to
find) a photo of Ms. Stewart? It's a fine CD, and I'd rather not have it
come out like something designed to scare small children.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Not to mention the fact that Folkways photos are not in the public domain.
When someone asks us for photos used in Folkways productions, we have to say
that we do not own the rights.  They were most likely provided to Folkways
for a one-time use.  I assume this, and the photos in the booklet, were
taken by Kenny Goldstein.  There's no attribution but he compiled the
album.Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
Smithsonian Institution
750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
202 275-1157  voice
202 275-2251 fax
[unmask]NB: Until further notice, please send all mail to:
PO Box 37012
Victor Building, Room 4100, MRC 953
Washington, DC 20013-7012>>> [unmask] 12/09/04 02:17PM >>>
In a message dated 12/9/2004 6:42:22 PM GMT Standard Time, [unmask]writes:> a photo of Ms. Stewart? It's a fine CD, and I'd rather not have it
> come out like something designed to scare small children.Folkways FG3519 - but the cover photo is a little forbidding.John Moulden

The Folkways photo appears to ve the same one that Folktrax uses. Does
anyone know how I can reach Rochelle Goldstein?
dick greenhausStephanie Smith wrote:>Not to mention the fact that Folkways photos are not in the public domain.
>When someone asks us for photos used in Folkways productions, we have to say
>that we do not own the rights.  They were most likely provided to Folkways
>for a one-time use.  I assume this, and the photos in the booklet, were
>taken by Kenny Goldstein.  There's no attribution but he compiled the
>album.
>
>Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
>Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
>Smithsonian Institution
>750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
>Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
>202 275-1157  voice
>202 275-2251 fax
>[unmask]
>
>NB: Until further notice, please send all mail to:
>PO Box 37012
>Victor Building, Room 4100, MRC 953
>Washington, DC 20013-7012
>
>
>
>
>>>>[unmask] 12/09/04 02:17PM >>>
>>>>
>>>>
>In a message dated 12/9/2004 6:42:22 PM GMT Standard Time, [unmask]
>
>writes:
>
>
>
>>a photo of Ms. Stewart? It's a fine CD, and I'd rather not have it
>>come out like something designed to scare small children.
>>
>>
>
>Folkways FG3519 - but the cover photo is a little forbidding.
>
>John Moulden
>
>
>
>
>
>

John:Available tunes suggest it is traditional.  I would guess the  linkage we know is on a Library of Congress disc that Alan Lomax played for Ives, Seeger, et al.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 9, 2004 8:03 am
Subject: Re: Old Smokey?> Who put the popular tune for Old Smoky to its words?
>
> Is it traditional?
>
> Or did Pete Seeger et al. simply adopt the second half of Little
> Mohee as the Old Smoky tune?
>
> John
>

Dick:Rochelle Goldstein <[unmask]>Ed----- Original Message -----
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 9, 2004 11:40 am
Subject: Re: Lucy Stewart Photo needed> The Folkways photo appears to ve the same one that Folktrax uses. Does
> anyone know how I can reach Rochelle Goldstein?
> dick greenhaus
>
> Stephanie Smith wrote:
>
> >Not to mention the fact that Folkways photos are not in the public
> domain.>When someone asks us for photos used in Folkways
> productions, we have to say
> >that we do not own the rights.  They were most likely provided to
> Folkways>for a one-time use.  I assume this, and the photos in the
> booklet, were
> >taken by Kenny Goldstein.  There's no attribution but he compiled the
> >album.
> >
> >Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
> >Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
> >Smithsonian Institution
> >750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
> >Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
> >202 275-1157  voice
> >202 275-2251 fax
> >[unmask]
> >
> >NB: Until further notice, please send all mail to:
> >PO Box 37012
> >Victor Building, Room 4100, MRC 953
> >Washington, DC 20013-7012
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>>>[unmask] 12/09/04 02:17PM >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >In a message dated 12/9/2004 6:42:22 PM GMT Standard Time,
> [unmask]>
> >writes:
> >
> >
> >
> >>a photo of Ms. Stewart? It's a fine CD, and I'd rather not have it
> >>come out like something designed to scare small children.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Folkways FG3519 - but the cover photo is a little forbidding.
> >
> >John Moulden
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

[unmask]and tell her I said Hi.Heather WoodIn a message dated 12/9/2004 2:40:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, dick greenhaus <[unmask]> writes:>The Folkways photo appears to ve the same one that Folktrax uses. Does
>anyone know how I can reach Rochelle Goldstein?
>dick greenhaus
>
>Stephanie Smith wrote:
>
>>Not to mention the fact that Folkways photos are not in the public domain.
>>When someone asks us for photos used in Folkways productions, we have to say
>>that we do not own the rights.  They were most likely provided to Folkways
>>for a one-time use.  I assume this, and the photos in the booklet, were
>>taken by Kenny Goldstein.  There's no attribution but he compiled the
>>album.
>>
>>Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
>>Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
>>Smithsonian Institution
>>750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
>>Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
>>202 275-1157  voice
>>202 275-2251 fax
>>[unmask]
>>
>>NB: Until further notice, please send all mail to:
>>PO Box 37012
>>Victor Building, Room 4100, MRC 953
>>Washington, DC 20013-7012
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>[unmask] 12/09/04 02:17PM >>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>In a message dated 12/9/2004 6:42:22 PM GMT Standard Time, [unmask]
>>
>>writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>>a photo of Ms. Stewart? It's a fine CD, and I'd rather not have it
>>>come out like something designed to scare small children.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Folkways FG3519 - but the cover photo is a little forbidding.
>>
>>John Moulden
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

On 2004/12/09 at 08:16:05AM -0600, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> On 12/8/04, [unmask] wrote:
>
> >This makes methink of "On Top of Spaghetti", created by children, snd was
> >sung about 30  years ago at a party at the then-new University of  California,
> >San Diego,by the father (a well-known folksinger) of one of the first graduates.
> >Here's how it started:
> >
> >"On top of spaghetti all covered with cheese,
> >I lost my poor meatball when somebody sneezed.        [ ... ]> This is more than thirty years old. There was an old kids' TV show
> in our area in which they dramatized this, with the meatball going
> on its travels. (I'm not kidding.) I don't know when this was, but
> I was young enough to be watching daytime kids' TV; that probably
> makes me about five. Certainly no more than eight. So the item is
> at least 35 years old.
>
> And presumably, unless the TV staff invented it (which seems
> unlikely), it had had to have time to circulate to the TV station.        I heard it (as a kid) back around 1955 or so, so we are getting
close to 50 years old, now. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

The heading says it. I neatened it up for easier
readability. I made a few editorial corrections for
clarity and appreciate feedback on my bad decisions.The PDF is searchable. Use whatever PC key equals the
apple key on Mac plus F (for "Find") and away you go.C.

Thanx to all who responded. I'll trying to track down one that doen't
make her look like the Wicked Witch of the North-East.
dick
edward cray wrote:>Dick:
>
>Rochelle Goldstein <[unmask]>
>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
>Date: Thursday, December 9, 2004 11:40 am
>Subject: Re: Lucy Stewart Photo needed
>
>
>
>>The Folkways photo appears to ve the same one that Folktrax uses. Does
>>anyone know how I can reach Rochelle Goldstein?
>>dick greenhaus
>>
>>Stephanie Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Not to mention the fact that Folkways photos are not in the public
>>>
>>>
>>domain.>When someone asks us for photos used in Folkways
>>productions, we have to say
>>
>>
>>>that we do not own the rights.  They were most likely provided to
>>>
>>>
>>Folkways>for a one-time use.  I assume this, and the photos in the
>>booklet, were
>>
>>
>>>taken by Kenny Goldstein.  There's no attribution but he compiled the
>>>album.
>>>
>>>Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
>>>Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
>>>Smithsonian Institution
>>>750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
>>>Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
>>>202 275-1157  voice
>>>202 275-2251 fax
>>>[unmask]
>>>
>>>NB: Until further notice, please send all mail to:
>>>PO Box 37012
>>>Victor Building, Room 4100, MRC 953
>>>Washington, DC 20013-7012
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>[unmask] 12/09/04 02:17PM >>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>In a message dated 12/9/2004 6:42:22 PM GMT Standard Time,
>>>
>>>
>>[unmask]>
>>
>>
>>>writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>a photo of Ms. Stewart? It's a fine CD, and I'd rather not have it
>>>>come out like something designed to scare small children.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Folkways FG3519 - but the cover photo is a little forbidding.
>>>
>>>John Moulden
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

You might also want to get in touch with the Elphinstone Institute at the
University of Aberdeen to see if they have anything at hand.  The contact
would be Ian Russell, Director, [unmask]The Dept. of Celtic and Scottish Studies at the Univeristy of Edinburgh
would have some photos of Lucy, but the response time might not be a
problem.Stephanie Smith>>> [unmask] 12/09/04 04:02PM >>>
Thanx to all who responded. I'll trying to track down one that doen't
make her look like the Wicked Witch of the North-East.
dick
edward cray wrote:>Dick:
>
>Rochelle Goldstein <[unmask]>
>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
>Date: Thursday, December 9, 2004 11:40 am
>Subject: Re: Lucy Stewart Photo needed
>
>
>
>>The Folkways photo appears to ve the same one that Folktrax uses. Does
>>anyone know how I can reach Rochelle Goldstein?
>>dick greenhaus
>>
>>Stephanie Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Not to mention the fact that Folkways photos are not in the public
>>>
>>>
>>domain.>When someone asks us for photos used in Folkways
>>productions, we have to say
>>
>>
>>>that we do not own the rights.  They were most likely provided to
>>>
>>>
>>Folkways>for a one-time use.  I assume this, and the photos in the
>>booklet, were
>>
>>
>>>taken by Kenny Goldstein.  There's no attribution but he compiled the
>>>album.
>>>
>>>Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
>>>Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
>>>Smithsonian Institution
>>>750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
>>>Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
>>>202 275-1157  voice
>>>202 275-2251 fax
>>>[unmask]
>>>
>>>NB: Until further notice, please send all mail to:
>>>PO Box 37012
>>>Victor Building, Room 4100, MRC 953
>>>Washington, DC 20013-7012
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>[unmask] 12/09/04 02:17PM >>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>In a message dated 12/9/2004 6:42:22 PM GMT Standard Time,
>>>
>>>
>>[unmask]>
>>
>>
>>>writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>a photo of Ms. Stewart? It's a fine CD, and I'd rather not have it
>>>>come out like something designed to scare small children.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Folkways FG3519 - but the cover photo is a little forbidding.
>>>
>>>John Moulden
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sorry, that should have read " the response time [from Edinburgh] might be a
problem.">>> [unmask] 12/09/04 04:18PM >>>
You might also want to get in touch with the Elphinstone Institute at the
University of Aberdeen to see if they have anything at hand.  The contact
would be Ian Russell, Director, [unmask]The Dept. of Celtic and Scottish Studies at the Univeristy of Edinburgh
would have some photos of Lucy, but the response time might not be a
problem.Stephanie Smith>>> [unmask] 12/09/04 04:02PM >>>
Thanx to all who responded. I'll trying to track down one that doen't
make her look like the Wicked Witch of the North-East.
dick

According to the fine print in _Rise Up Singing_, "On Top of
Spaghetti" is indeed by Tom Glaser, and is ?1961 Songs Music Inc.
-- 
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Nothing knits man to man like the frequent passage from hand  :||
||:  to hand of cash.                                              :||

Hi!        This is just a quick list of songsters since they close so soon.
The main list will follow probably late on Saturday.        SONGSTERS        3945177227 - UNCLE TRUE SONGSTER, 1840's?, $99 (ends Dec-10-04
16:54:32 PST)        4510559986 - COMICAL BROWN'S SONGSTER, 1885, $5 (ends Dec-14-04
09:48:39 PST)        3768495969 - 2 songsters (The American Songster and Flag of the
Free No. 1), 1902 & 1907, $0.99 (ends Dec-16-04 10:05:18 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

For what it's worth, here's my 2-cents-worth regarding the ON TOP OF
SPAGHETTI trivia... Tom Glazer made the first recording of ON TOP OF
SPAGHETTI, which was issued by the Kapp label in 1963 -- on both
45rpm (KAPP K-526X) and LP (KAPP KS-3331). The version on the
Wonderland label is a different version, issued somewhat later. The
Wonderland version is a solo concert recording, with the crowd
singing along. The original Kapp version is a studio recording, with
Glazer and a children's chorus. The Kapp version was a Top 20 hit in
1963, and was profiled in Billboard magazine (June 22, 1963, p. 14).That Glazer is the author of ON TOP OF SPAGHETTI (meaning that he
wrote new words for this traditional tune) is not seriously in question.
As he would say, he alone deserves the blame. He copyrighted the
song and collected royalties on it, which were not insignificant. (Little
Richard and Barney the purple dinosaur are the most recent to put out
cover versions. And Ragu spaghetti sauce also recently licensed it for
commercials.) To my knowledge, no one else has ever claimed
authorship. I believe that the original manuscript score is held in
Glazer's archive at Boston University.A couple of list members recall hearing the song prior to 1963. I don't
know how to explain that. The Billboard article, for instance, clearly
implies that it is a new song. But maybe he had written it prior to 1963
and performed it in his concerts, thus bringing to it some degree of
exposure before it became nationally popular. However, it was not
circulated on record or sheet music prior to 1963. I suspect that the
1961 copyright date which one list member cites from the "Rise Up
Singing" songbook is a typo. Or maybe Glazer did in fact copyright it in
1961. I don't know. But the copyright date on the original sheet music
is 1963.That's all I know (or think I know),David Bonner

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bonner" <[unmask]><<A couple of list members recall hearing the song prior to 1963. I don't
know how to explain that. The Billboard article, for instance, clearly
implies that it is a new song. But maybe he had written it prior to 1963
and performed it in his concerts, thus bringing to it some degree of
exposure before it became nationally popular. However, it was not
circulated on record or sheet music prior to 1963. I suspect that the
1961 copyright date which one list member cites from the "Rise Up
Singing" songbook is a typo. Or maybe Glazer did in fact copyright it in
1961. I don't know. But the copyright date on the original sheet music
is 1963.>>I suspect it was picked up by the kids at my school from someone who heard
Glazer sing it in concert. He did kids' concerts there pretty regularly in
the 1950s.By the time I heard it, there were already a few textual variations: "I lost
my *last* meatball/when somebody sneezed", "The last time I saw it/It rolled
out the door."The 1961 date sounds right. I know I was in grade school, 5th or 6th grade,
and I started high school in Sept., 1963. By then, we sophisticates would
have nothing to do with baby stuff like "On top of spaghetti". We wanted
something dirty.Peace,
Paul

Can someone provide the following information:
  A contact for the estate of Dr. Oster and the archive holding his
field recordings.
Thanks, Thomas Stern.

On 2004/12/10 at 01:10:36PM -0600, Paul Stamler wrote:> From: "David Bonner" <[unmask]>
>
>> A couple of list members recall hearing the song prior to 1963. I don't
>> know how to explain that. The Billboard article, for instance, clearly
>> implies that it is a new song. But maybe he had written it prior to 1963
>> and performed it in his concerts, thus bringing to it some degree of
>> exposure before it became nationally popular. However, it was not
>> circulated on record or sheet music prior to 1963. I suspect that the
>> 1961 copyright date which one list member cites from the "Rise Up
>> Singing" songbook is a typo. Or maybe Glazer did in fact copyright it in
>> 1961. I don't know. But the copyright date on the original sheet music
>> is 1963.
>
> I suspect it was picked up by the kids at my school from someone who heard
> Glazer sing it in concert. He did kids' concerts there pretty regularly in
> the 1950s.        Hmm ... when I heard it (if that was what I *did* hear), it was
in small-town South Texas, as I say sometime around 1955-1956.  It was
sung by some younger kids (I was in early high schoool by then), but I
don't think that they could have heard it in a concert, as there were
very few for kids around that part of the country.        My memory of it is rather hazy, so what I heard could well have
been something else.  And I heard it only that once, until much later in
life.        It could not be much later that I heard whatever I heard,
because by 1957, I was up in this area (Washington DC vicinity).        [ ... ]> The 1961 date sounds right. I know I was in grade school, 5th or 6th grade,
> and I started high school in Sept., 1963. By then, we sophisticates would
> have nothing to do with baby stuff like "On top of spaghetti". We wanted
> something dirty.        Hmm ... is there a "dirty" version of "On Top of Old Smokey"?
That may be what I heard, and I could be misremembering the meatball
verse.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 12/10/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:>        [ ... ]
>
>> The 1961 date sounds right. I know I was in grade school, 5th or 6th grade,
>> and I started high school in Sept., 1963. By then, we sophisticates would
>> have nothing to do with baby stuff like "On top of spaghetti". We wanted
>> something dirty.
>
>        Hmm ... is there a "dirty" version of "On Top of Old Smokey"?
>That may be what I heard, and I could be misremembering the meatball
>verse.There is another parody: "On top of Old Smokey, All covered with
sand, I shot my poor teacher With a big rubber band." That one I
am pretty sure I learned on a school playground in the late Sixties.Not at all unlikely that such a thing would be around in the Fifties,
I would think.I *do* think that we can assume that both versions are more recent
than The Weavers recording of "Old Smokey." Obviously the song is
much older than that (Belden has most of the elements in 1911,
and we have the 1915 citations already mentioned). But none of
the people who recorded it seem to me to have been popular enough
to make the tune so widely recognized. Had to be The Weavers,
I think.They did record it fairly early, didn't they?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Paul Stamler said:
(snip)By the time I heard it, there were already a few textual variations: "I lost
my *last* meatball/when somebody sneezed", "The last time I saw it/It rolled
out the door."I heard it certainly in the early 60's here in the UK, and by that time the
last verses had become:"..But the mush was as tasty
As tasty could be
And then my poor meatball
Grew into a tree
And the tree in the garden
Grew high as a hoss
It grew lovely meatballs
All covered in soss"You'll have to excuse the fake US accent evidenced in the last few lines. I
didn't do it; that's the way I heard it, from a bloke with an otherwise very
plummy English accent. The last verse of the original song seems to have got
lost, possibly in mid-Atlantic. Unlike the meatball. Who says the folk
process is dead (tho' some might wish it were...)?Cheers & seasonal greetings to allSimon

Paul Stamler wrote (in part):The 1961 date sounds right. I know I was in grade school, 5th or 6th grade,
and I started high school in Sept., 1963. By then, we sophisticates would
have nothing to do with baby stuff like "On top of spaghetti". We wanted
something dirty.To which Ed Cray not so innocently inquires: And now?

Bul Ives predated the Weavers by a goodly number of years. He was pretty
wiidely listened to.dick greenhausRobert B. Waltz wrote:>On 12/10/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
>
>
>>       [ ... ]
>>
>>
>>
>>>The 1961 date sounds right. I know I was in grade school, 5th or 6th grade,
>>>and I started high school in Sept., 1963. By then, we sophisticates would
>>>have nothing to do with baby stuff like "On top of spaghetti". We wanted
>>>something dirty.
>>>
>>>
>>       Hmm ... is there a "dirty" version of "On Top of Old Smokey"?
>>That may be what I heard, and I could be misremembering the meatball
>>verse.
>>
>>
>
>There is another parody: "On top of Old Smokey, All covered with
>sand, I shot my poor teacher With a big rubber band." That one I
>am pretty sure I learned on a school playground in the late Sixties.
>
>Not at all unlikely that such a thing would be around in the Fifties,
>I would think.
>
>I *do* think that we can assume that both versions are more recent
>than The Weavers recording of "Old Smokey." Obviously the song is
>much older than that (Belden has most of the elements in 1911,
>and we have the 1915 citations already mentioned). But none of
>the people who recorded it seem to me to have been popular enough
>to make the tune so widely recognized. Had to be The Weavers,
>I think.
>
>They did record it fairly early, didn't they?
>
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."
>
>
>
>
>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Wearing my elementary music teacher hat, I've found that kids just don't
learn songs on the back alley like we did when I was a kid (in the
1970s). I have to teach them such pearls as "On Top of Speghetti" (after
first doing Old Smoky, of course) and "The ants go marchin three by
three" and even hand-clap songs like "Miss Lucy Had a Baby". It's a
shame that they have to learn this from a "classically-trained" adult
musician, but at least they're learning it somewhere!Beth Brooks
Indianapolis>>> [unmask] 12/10/04 5:07 PM >>>Childhood memories can be a tricky thing.  One might have a memory
association which, after 40 years has shifted a few years in time.   {-;

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

 From the 1950s:On top of Old Smokey,
Where ev'ryone goes,
There stood poor ___
Without any clothes.--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

On Fri, Dec 10, 2004 at 02:12:12PM -0500, Thomas Stern wrote:
> Can someone provide the following information:
>  A contact for the estate of Dr. Oster and the archive holding his
> field recordings.You might ask Chris Strachwitz of Arhoolie Records, because I think
his label released a bunch of records under the Folk-Lyric label.
I vaguely remember something about a purchase.  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

On 12/10/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote:>Google tells me that "On Top of Old Smoky," as recorded by the Weavers, was No. 6 on the Hit Parade in 1951.  But ISTR it appeared in the very popular "Fireside Book of Folksongs," published in 1947.And when you were six, how many songs did you learn from songbooks? :-)
That sounds nasty, but it's important.A parody will usually be based on something widely heard and known.
A tune in a book is not likely to be used, especially for a kids'
parody. If Burl Ives preceded The Weavers, I'll allow that he might
have been the source. But all parodies of "Old Smokey" must be
after those recordings. And if the Weavers actually had a hit
with it. I'd incline to think that that was the source.I won't claim that that's proof. But I think the probability high.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Had I bothered to look at Tom Glazer's liner notes to the Wonderland
LP which contains his live version of SPAGHETTI, I would have noticed
that he wrote the song "in the late Fifties-early Sixties." So those folks
who remember the song pre-1963 now have an additional shred of
evidence proving that they still have all their marbles. *** Regarding
the popularization and parody of OLD SMOKY / SMOKEY, I just
checked Glazer's brief intro to the song in his 1961 book A NEW
TREASURY OF FOLK SONGS. He says: "Attained the number one
spot on the nation's hit parade by virtue of a recording of the Weavers."
A good indication that it was indeed the Weavers popularization which
prompted the parodist's parody. --David Bonner

Folks:I would just like to point out that Burl Ives got many (most?) of his repertoire from Alan Lomax.Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]><<I *do* think that we can assume that both versions are more recent
than The Weavers recording of "Old Smokey." Obviously the song is
much older than that (Belden has most of the elements in 1911,
and we have the 1915 citations already mentioned). But none of
the people who recorded it seem to me to have been popular enough
to make the tune so widely recognized. Had to be The Weavers,
I think.>>Or Burl Ives.<<They did record it fairly early, didn't they?>>Feb. 1951, released not long after, on Decca, smash hit. Burl Ives'
(Columbia?) recording came out the same year; it was also a hit. It's just
possible there was a Children's Record Guild disc too, but I haven't found
any information on one during a cursory Google search.Peace,
Paul--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>Paul Stamler wrote (in part):The 1961 date sounds right. I know I was in grade school, 5th or 6th grade,
and I started high school in Sept., 1963. By then, we sophisticates would
have nothing to do with baby stuff like "On top of spaghetti". We wanted
something dirty.<<To which Ed Cray not so innocently inquires: And now?>>And now we're all eclectic. Dirty *or* spaghetti.Peace,
Paul

From 1950-1953, Dingwall Primary School, Ross-shire.On top of old Smokey, where nobody goes
There stands Betty Grable without any clothes
Up rides Roy Rogers and takes out his cock
I pity Betty Grable, 'cause it's hard as a rockEwan McVicar, 
84 High Street
Linlithgow, 
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

Folks:Interesting how  fast  these songs spread.  The Weavers' version -- credited to Pete Seeger -- was released in 1951.In Los Angeles about the same time, kids were singing:On top of Old Smoky,  all covered with snow.
I saw Georgie Jessel with Marilyn Monroe.
He took off his jacjket.  He took off his vest.
And when he saw Marilyn, he took off the rest.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Ewan McVicar <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, December 11, 2004 1:43 am
Subject: On Top of Who?> From 1950-1953, Dingwall Primary School, Ross-shire.
>
> On top of old Smokey, where nobody goes
> There stands Betty Grable without any clothes
> Up rides Roy Rogers and takes out his cock
> I pity Betty Grable, 'cause it's hard as a rock
>
> Ewan McVicar,
> 84 High Street
> Linlithgow,
> West Lothian
> Scotland
> EH49 7AQ
>
> tel 01506 847935
>

In Texas we sangOn top of Old Smokey
All covered in grass
I saw my poor girlfriend
Kiss Jack Benny's ass.mikeMike Luster
Louisiana Folklife Festival
611A Roselawn Ave
Monroe, LA  71201[unmask]
www.LouisianaFolklifeFest.org
318-324-1665 voice or fax
318-503-1618 cell

On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:57:05 -0600, Robert B. Waltz wrote:>On 12/10/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>Google tells me that "On Top of Old Smoky," as recorded by the Weavers, was No. 6 on the Hit Parade in 1951.  But ISTR it appeared in the very popular "Fireside Book of Folksongs," published in 1947.
>
>And when you were six, how many songs did you learn from songbooks? :-)
>That sounds nasty, but it's important.For me, FWIW, many.  And from "Fireside Book of Folksongs."  My mother would
play these on piano & we'd sing.  These were the only "folksongs," other
than grade school, to which I had exposure.  (Slightly later I learned some
camp & street songs from friends.)On "making the scene' (Cambridge) at age 16, I was surprised how many I more
or less knew.  Oddly - or significantly - I rarely retained any of the pop
or show tunes my mother played.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida

 >*** Regarding the popularization and parody of OLD SMOKY / SMOKEY,
> I just checked Glazer's brief intro to the song in his 1961 book A NEW
> TREASURY OF FOLK SONGS. He says: "Attained the number one
> spot on the nation's hit parade by virtue of a recording of the Weavers."
> A good indication that it was indeed the Weavers popularization which
> prompted the parodist's parody. --David BonnerMakes sense to me.  I grew up in extremely rural Oregon.  In the early 50's
we had an hour and a half bus ride from my valley into high school.
Strangely, no one had a walkman... instead, we sang, every day, on the
school bus.  Old Smoky a favorite, that everyone knew by heart.  Found a
Peanut was stupid, but we sang it anyway.  Also... The Frozen Logger, 99
Bottles of Beer, Sweet Violets, were on the daily list.   A few tries at
others from popular radio I think... only occasionally one out of the Golden
Book of Favorite Songs that we had used in grade school.  I wish I could
remember the rest (and forget a couple of these)--
Suzanne and Truman Price
Columbia Basin Books
7210 Helmick Road
Monmouth, OR 97361email [unmask]
fax 503-606-3176
phone 503-838-5452
abe URL: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abep/il.dll?vci=3381
also 10,000 childrens books at http://www.oldchildrensbooks.comAbe Heritage Seller

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 12/11/04, edward cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>Interesting how  fast  these songs spread.  The Weavers' version -- credited to Pete Seeger -- was released in 1951.
>
>In Los Angeles about the same time, kids were singing:
>
>On top of Old Smoky,  all covered with snow.
>I saw Georgie Jessel with Marilyn Monroe.
>He took off his jacjket.  He took off his vest.
>And when he saw Marilyn, he took off the rest.Now this raises a very serious question: Why Old Smokey?
We've now established one composed-and-humorous parody
("On Top of Spaghetti"), one nihilist kids' version ("I
shot my poor teacher With a big rubber band), and at
least three dirty versions.Most if not all date from the period 1951-1963.That's a terrific rate of parodies. Yes, the song was popular --
but there were other #1 songs that didn't produce such a thing.
Nor did most folk songs -- some, like "John Brown's Body" and
"The Ship That Never Returned" and "Little Old Log Cabin in the
Lane," were used again and again, but we have no evidence that
they produced so many spin-offs at the same time. Even if they
did, they are exceptional.Is there something unusual about "Old Smokey" that encouraged
all the parodies? Or is it just that it was a hit at the time
most people on this list were young, and so you all learned
by-blows of the Smokey stock?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>In fact, except for Glazer's version, how many of the "Old Smoky"
>parodies have been published before now?
>...
>JLI don't know, but there are 5 inMarcia and Jon Pancake
A Prairie Home Companion Folk Song Book
Viking
New York
1988Here's one:On top of old Smoky
All covered with grass
I saw Davy Crockett
He fell on his...
Now don't get excited
Now don't get alarmed
I saw Davy Crockett
He fell on his arm!As I interpret this, the "..." is not sung.  It might well be that it
should be rendered something likeHe fell on his Now
Don't get excitedJohn

Bob:I was NOT young in 1951.  I learned  my bawdy parodies the hard way.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:56 am
Subject: Re: On Top of Who?> On 12/11/04, edward cray wrote:
>
> >Folks:
> >
> >Interesting how  fast  these songs spread.  The Weavers' version --
> credited to Pete Seeger -- was released in 1951.
> >
> >In Los Angeles about the same time, kids were singing:
> >
> >On top of Old Smoky,  all covered with snow.
> >I saw Georgie Jessel with Marilyn Monroe.
> >He took off his jacjket.  He took off his vest.
> >And when he saw Marilyn, he took off the rest.
>
> Now this raises a very serious question: Why Old Smokey?
> We've now established one composed-and-humorous parody
> ("On Top of Spaghetti"), one nihilist kids' version ("I
> shot my poor teacher With a big rubber band), and at
> least three dirty versions.
>
> Most if not all date from the period 1951-1963.
>
> That's a terrific rate of parodies. Yes, the song was popular --
> but there were other #1 songs that didn't produce such a thing.
> Nor did most folk songs -- some, like "John Brown's Body" and
> "The Ship That Never Returned" and "Little Old Log Cabin in the
> Lane," were used again and again, but we have no evidence that
> they produced so many spin-offs at the same time. Even if they
> did, they are exceptional.
>
> Is there something unusual about "Old Smokey" that encouraged
> all the parodies? Or is it just that it was a hit at the time
> most people on this list were young, and so you all learned
> by-blows of the Smokey stock?
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."
>

I would suggest it is the maudlin  tone of Old Smokey that just
invites.  Consider the Barney parodies rampant  amongst younger
children.  And the parodies exist strongly today, although I think
Barney the dinosaur is either long gone or less  in evidence.  I am
not familiar with the original(s) of the John Brown, but I would
suspect  overblownness to some degree.And of course, different parodies happen for different reasons.  John
Brown could happen because of  the stirring melodic build.  Old
Smokey and Barney parodies because of maudlin or commercialist
efforts begging to be deflated.  Some religious songs offer a "fair
mark"  for becoming the vehicles of religious texts from the other
camp  (consider Protestant hymns built on Catholic ones; or religious
texts foisted off on "sinful"  tunes).That's my two cents - if you don't laugh!David
--
-----------
David G. EngleCalifornia State University, Fresno
Tel: (559) 278-2708; FAX: (559) 278-7878
http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang
The Traditional Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
---

On 2004/12/11 at 04:43:09AM -0500, Ewan McVicar wrote:        [ ... ]> From 1950-1953, Dingwall Primary School, Ross-shire.
>
> On top of old Smokey, where nobody goes
> There stands Betty Grable without any clothes
> Up rides Roy Rogers and takes out his cock
> I pity Betty Grable, 'cause it's hard as a rock        Aha!  *That* is the one which I heard in the 1955-1954 period.
I would have been around 14-15 years of age then.  I only remembered it
as a parody -- and had not even known about parodies prior to that
moment, and still did not know the term to cover them.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2004/12/11 at 01:56:33PM -0600, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> On 12/11/04, edward cray wrote:
>
> >Folks:
>
> >Interesting how fast these songs spread.  The Weavers' version --
> >credited to Pete Seeger -- was released in 1951.
>
> >In Los Angeles about the same time, kids were singing:
> >
> >On top of Old Smoky,  all covered with snow.
> >I saw Georgie Jessel with Marilyn Monroe.
> >He took off his jacjket.  He took off his vest.
> >And when he saw Marilyn, he took off the rest.
>
> Now this raises a very serious question: Why Old Smokey?
> We've now established one composed-and-humorous parody
> ("On Top of Spaghetti"), one nihilist kids' version ("I
> shot my poor teacher With a big rubber band), and at
> least three dirty versions.
>
> Most if not all date from the period 1951-1963.
>
> That's a terrific rate of parodies. Yes, the song was popular --
> but there were other #1 songs that didn't produce such a thing.        IIRC, "On top of Old Smokey" was one of the songs taught in
school to (relatively) unwilling kids, along with "Little Mohee" (my own
favorite from that time), and several others.  Including, since we were
in the deep South of Texas, a certain number in Spanish.        I suspect that they were taught because they were free of
copyright, and thus free of the need to handle royalties.        This means, however, that more kids knew how to sing the
originals -- far more than would from hearing them on the radio -- thus
making them fair (and easy) targets for parodies.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 12/11/04, Jonathan Lighter wrote:>If "John Brown's Body," etc., had inspired a similar rate of parodies, we'd never probably never know it because "kids' parodies," especially seamy ones, would not have been published in the 1860s.  A hundred years later, when publishing was a possibilty, all those singers would have been dead.  In fact, except for Glazer's version, how many of the "Old Smoky" parodies have been published before now?
>
>It may be also that none of these kids' parodies would have been preserved without the 21st magic of the Web.All true -- but that's not really an answer.I thought of another explanation: These are mostly kids' items, and
there are two things, both relatively modern, which will encourage
the survival of kids' songs. One is tunes that everyone knows, which
are encouraged by radio and recordings. The other is universal
free schooling, which became common in the nineteenth century --
but you didn't see everyone going until the twentieth century.So I'll allow that the phenomenon of kids' parodies would not become
common until about the Thirties. Add to that the fact that most
of the people who heard the Old Smokey parodies are still around,
and you have a genuine reason why they would still be known.But this isn't the essential question. It's not "Why do so many
Old Smokey parodies survive?" It's "Why Old Smokey?" -- as opposed
to "Goodnight Irene" or for that matter an Elvis song? You can't
ring in copyright; "On Top of Spaghetti" is copyright, but it
spread, and kids aren't going to stop singing songs because of
copyright.The one explanation we have so far is David's: A maudlin tone.
I suppose it makes sense. Personally, though, I would have
expected something simpler: "Old Smokey" has an eight-line
rhyme scheme (or, if you prefer, four double lines). That's
work. :-) Easier to parody something simpler.We'll never know the answer, of course -- but I think the question
interesting (and I think it remains open).--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 02:23:55 -0600, Paul Stamler
<[unmask]> wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert B. Waltz" &lt;[unmask]&gt;
>
>&lt;&lt;I *do* think that we can assume that both versions are more
recent
>than The Weavers recording of "Old Smokey." Obviously the song is
>much older than that (Belden has most of the elements in 1911,
>and we have the 1915 citations already mentioned). But none of
>the people who recorded it seem to me to have been popular
enough
>to make the tune so widely recognized. Had to be The Weavers,
>I think.&gt;&gt;
>
>Or Burl Ives.
>
>&lt;&lt;They did record it fairly early, didn't they?&gt;&gt;
>
>Feb. 1951, released not long after, on Decca, smash hit. Burl Ives'
>(Columbia?) recording came out the same year; it was also a hit. It's
just
>possible there was a Children's Record Guild disc too, but I haven't
found
>any information on one during a cursory Google search.
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."Regarding a possible Children's Record Guild issue of SMOKEY,
there is none. However, Young People's Record did issue a version of
it (though NOT a parody) called "The Little Cowboy" in 1948 (recorded
1947). It's a story record, narrated by Will Geer. The SMOKEY
adaptation is at the opening and closing of the record, with Ernie
Lieberman singing it first, and then being joined by Fred Hellerman for
a duet at the closing. Hellerman, of course, was one of the Weavers,
and this was pre-Weavers. The lyrics are:There once was a cowboy
Who went out a-riding
In boots and in chaps [2 syllables on cha-aps]
And a shirt of bright blue.
His outfit was little
His horse was a pony
For he was a cowboy
No bigger than you.Might look a bit corny on paper, but it's actually a terrific record, which
both Lieberman and Hellerman were very proud of. (The first recording
for both of them, by the way.) The words are by a guy named Raymond
Abrashkin, who adapted lots of folk songs for Young People's
Records and Childrens Record Guild. His son still has his worn out
copy of the Fireside book, though I'm not sure that's where he actually
learned SMOKEY. "The Little Cowboy" song also appears in the
"Young People's Records Folk Song Book" (1949), with the
arrangement credited to Peter Gordon -- a pseudonym of Horace
Grenell, who was the guiding force behind both YPR and CRG.
Anyway... the record pops up fairly regularly on ebay (78rpm much
more often than 45rpm), if anyone's interested.  --David Bonner

Burl Ives did sing it "Sing Out, Sweet Land" (1945, though I thought it
was a couple of years earlier). He also did it on the Original Cast
Album (I'd guess 46-47).
I'm also pretty sure he sang on his 1945-1946 radio program "Philco's
Friendly Troubador"