Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>>> You wouldn't read about it (except here) but this very morning I
>>> was=20=
>
>>> going through an old file circa 1960s and found this
>>>
>>> ON TOP OF MY PIZZA
>>> Tune: On Top of Old Smokey
>>>
>>>  On top of my pizza
>>>  All covered with sauce
>>>  Could not find the mushrooms
>>>  I think they got lost
>>>
>>>  I looked in the closet
>>>  I looked in the sink
>>>  I looked in the cup that
>>>  Held my cola drink
>>>
>>>  I looked in the saucepan
>>>  Right under the lid
>>>  No matter where I looked
>>>  Those mushrooms stayed hid
>>>
>>>  Next time you make pizza
>>>  I=92m begging you, please
>>>  Do not give me mushrooms
>>>  But just plain old cheese
>>>
>>> and someone sent me this
>>>
>>> On top of old Smokey where nobody goes
>>> there lies Sabrina without any clothes
>>> Along came Roy Rogers, clippity clop
>>> down with his trousers and out with his cock
>>>
>>>
>>> Just for fun and your interest I collected an Australian parody of
>>> On=20=
>
>>> Top Of Old Smokey - it dates from early 1940s and is titled ON TOP
>>> OF=20=
>
>>> NO SMOKING and is an anti budget song
>>> I recorded a version of the song on the CD 'Larrikins, Louts &=20
>>> layabouts'
>>>
>>> On top of no smoking
>>> Because of the cost,
>>> They're taxing our drinking,
>>> Our pleasures are lost.
>>>
>>> For drinking's a pleasure
>>> And thirsting's a grief,
>>> And old Artie Fadden (he was federal treasurer)
>>> Is worse than a thief
>>>
>>> A thief will just rob you
>>> and turn you to dust
>>> Not one boss in a hundred
>>> A worker can trust.
>>>
>>> They'll hug you and kiss you
>>> and tell you all lies
>>> But we don't believe them
>>> Because we've got wise
>>>
>>> We've had Artie Fadden
>>> We''ve had Menzies too (he was PM)
>>> With all dinkum Aussies
>>> They're just about through.
>>>
>>> So come all you fellows
>>> and young maidens too
>>> We'll tell Bob and Artie
>>> Just what they can do.
>>>
>>> Let's throw out their budget
>>> High prices will cease
>>> Then we'll get a Government
>>> That can lead us to peace.
>>>
>>>

John:Check Sharp-Karpeles II, p. 123.  With the exception of the first note, a third rather than the tonic, it is "Old Smokey."Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, December 13, 2004 12:55 pm
Subject: Re: "On Top of Spaghetti"> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
> >
> ><<I've lost track.  Are we looking for earliest sound recording of
> the "On
> >top
> >of old Smok(e)y" verse?>>
> >
> >Not specifically, but as long as we're there, so far it seems to
> be George
> >Reneau's 1926 disc (Vocalion 15366). To which I append this note,
> from the
> >Index: "All recordings by George Reneau have the vocals sung by
> Gene Austin;
> >Reneau played
> >harmonica. However, they were apparently his versions and
> arrangements, and
> >his name was on the label, so that's how they're listed." The
> record people
> >seem to have thought Reneau's voice was too rough for recordings,
> so they
> >got a smoother singer in to do the actual vocals. A few years
> later, Austin
> >hit the big-time as a crooner.
> >
> >Peace,
> >Paul
>
> I'm interested in the first recording/recovery to link "On top of Old
> Smoky ..." with the tune used by the Weavers, etc.  Anybody?
>
> John
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

A book that contains a good deal of such stuff (U.S. only) is _A
Prairie Home Companion Folk Song Book_ by Marcia & Jon Pankake
(1988).  It also contains an appendix, "The Top Tunes", which confirms
what had always been my impression, that the most (ab)used song in the
U.S. is not "On Top of Old Smoky", but the Battle Hymn of the Republic
(13 parodies in the book).  "O Tannenbaum" is next with 6, and OTOOS
is tied with "Fr?e Jacques", "Glow Worm", "My Bonnie Lies Over the
Ocean", "The Old Grey Mare", and "Turkey in the Straw" at 5 each.For OTOOS we find there (1) "I Shot My Poor Teacher", cited earlier in
this thread, and also (2)  On top of Old Baldy, there's nary a hair
  But only the mem'ry of hair that was there.& so on thru 6 stanzas; (3)  On top of my headache
  I had a sore throat
  My bones were all aching
  I smelled like a goat.  My doctor prescribed
  A trip on a boat
  But alas and alack, dear
  That boat [would] not float.  So now I am writing
  From under the sea
  The joke's on my doctor
  How will he bill me?(4) a hackneyed tease,  On  top of old Smoky
  All covered with grass
  I saw Davy Crockett
  He fell on his..., etc.(5) for dessert,  On top of Old Smoky
  All covered with blood
  I met my true lover
  Her face in the mud.  So I turned her over
  And looked in her eyes
  And they were all bloodshot
  And covered with flies.  A knife in her stomach
  An ax in her head
  I got the impression
  My lover was dead.I am inclined to agree that it is hifalutin sentiment that most
attracts this sort of treatment.  Worldwide, at least during W.W. II &
the years after, I suspect the prize for attracting it might go to
"Lili Marleen".
-- 
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  I reckon there's more things told than are true,  :||
||:  And more things true than are told.               :||

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Paul:Another Delightful book from Jean Ritchie is From Fair to Fair - Folk Songs of the British Isles.  She introduces 16 different folk songs with a story that leads you right to the song.  These may not all pass that well know Acid Ballad test but is a good read with the songs. I found it to be somewhat similar to Coulter's Candy for folk songs.If you haven't read James Hogg, his mother and uncles and grandfather and all carried the oral tradition until he wrote them down and got it all wrong and the magic was lost.  I would look to his writings to get the feel of a genuine ballad singer and his lifestyle.  Supposedly 30-40 of the Child ballads came directly from either his mother, or someone else in his family.   One of the great scenes I have of him is sitting out on his hill on any night when a few of his friends drop by and they start to sharin' the dram and have a singin' and James Hogg being an exceptional athlete can sing the loudest and longest of them all.    All night long.Sammy Rich>
> From: Paul G Beidler <[unmask]>
> Date: 2004/12/13 Mon AM 08:44:17 EST
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Jean Ritchie
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I've just finished reading Jean Ritchie's book _Singing Family of the Cumberlands_.  I loved the book, and I'd be interested in looking at any comparable works from England or Scotland--the earlier the better.  Can anyone recommend a first-hand account of ballad-singing culture comparable to the Ritchie book?
>
> I'd also be interested in hearing what people think of the Ritchie book.
>
> Paul Beidler
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 12/13/04, Joe Fineman wrote:>A book that contains a good deal of such stuff (U.S. only) is _A
>Prairie Home Companion Folk Song Book_ by Marcia & Jon Pankake
>(1988).  It also contains an appendix, "The Top Tunes", which confirms
>what had always been my impression, that the most (ab)used song in the
>U.S. is not "On Top of Old Smoky", but the Battle Hymn of the Republic
>(13 parodies in the book).  "O Tannenbaum" is next with 6, and OTOOS
>is tied with "Fr?e Jacques", "Glow Worm", "My Bonnie Lies Over the
>Ocean", "The Old Grey Mare", and "Turkey in the Straw" at 5 each.I have to point out that "The Battle Hymn" is *itself* a parody. :-)
The original tune was "Say, Brothers, Will You Meet Us," and "The
Battle Hymn" was *not* written with this tune in mind; it didn't
even have a chorus. In all likelihood, "John Brown's Body," as
a combined text-and-tune, is also older.But there are strong cautions about Pankake & Pankake. For starters,
most of the material in it is not TRADITIONAL song (whether it is
folk is of course a matter of definition). People made it up
themselves, or found it in notebooks or the like. Supposedly they
learned the songs orally, but it's clear that this is frequently
not true -- a number of the songs can't even be sung to their
alleged tunes.Then, too, it is self-selected, from the Public Radio listeners
of _A Prairie Home Companion_. Thus it is not a field collection.And, finally, even if all that is ignored, it is not a history
of parody (though most of what it contains is parody). It represents
parodies that are active *now*. There are any number of temporary
parodies (including quote a few of "Say, Brothers, Will You Meet Us")
not found in the book.The bias this causes is shown by the lack of parodies of
"Little Old Log Cabin in the Lane," "The Strawberry Roan,"
and of course "The Ship That Never Returned" -- still probably
the most popular source of parodies in existence.I don't think that anyone here has denied that other songs are
parodied more often than "Old Smokey." The question is simply why
the latter induced so many parodies in a short time.As regards popular parodies, I suspect "Mine Eyes Have Seen the
Glory of the Burning of the School" is the most popular now current.
I learned it from oral tradition, and seem to recall at least two
versions. And I've seen others in print.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I forgot I have a source living in my house! Sam is 14, and I asked him last
night if he has learned any songs from his schoolmates. He said, "Yes."
Also, they used to sing on the bus when he was in elementary school. That
was about the only unsupervised time they had to pass on folk lore. They
don't do that now that he is in middle school (I think it's not cool), and
they don't have any time in school to exchange songs (or games or stories).
He said he learned more of these songs in camp than in school. That's my
recollection, also. I learned most of the songs at Boy Scout camp (along
with some other stuff that my parents were very surprised at).Sam also said that he and his friends have tried to make up parodies, but
they weren't very good. That is also my recollection. I still think most of
the good parodies are made up by adults and, sometimes, disseminated by
kids.Dean Clamons
PO Box 217
Clifton, VA 20124
703-631-9655 (h)----- Original Message -----
From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Parodies> Dean-
> They sure did 30 years ago, when my kids were young. Why don't you ask
> Sam?
>
> dick
>
> Dean clamons wrote:
>
>> Yes, they have been around, but I doubt that many of them actually
>> came from
>> the schoolyard. The words too often have the mark of adults at work.
>> Kids do
>> appreciate and repeat them, and they at least used to have
>> opportunities to
>> use them that many adults don't have. I'm not sure if the schoolyard
>> network
>> of passing them on still works. Does anyone have any evidence that kids
>> still pass this stuff around?
>>
>> Dean Clamons
>> PO Box 217
>> Clifton, VA 20124
>> 703-631-9655 (h)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
>> To: <[unmask]>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2004 9:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: Parodies
>>
>>
>>> Schoolyard parodies have been circulating at least as far back as I was
>>> in a schoolyard---say mid 1930s. I'm pretty sure thay've been around as
>>> long as there have been kids and  songs to parody.
>>>
>>> Adam Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>> In children's concerts, as an introduction to "On Top of Spaghetti" I
>>>> often use a wide-spread parody of "Jingle Bells" to illustrate the
>>>> concept of parody:
>>>>
>>>> Jingle Bell, Batman smells
>>>> Robin laid an egg
>>>> The Bat-mobile lost its whell
>>>> And the Joker got away
>>>>
>>>> This recent discussion of earliest memories of schoolyard parodies made
>>>> me wonder how long this one has been around.
>>>>
>>>> I've known it since 1969.
>>>>
>>>> -Adam Miller
>>>> Woodside, CA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

>John:
>
>Check Sharp-Karpeles II, p. 123.  With the exception of the first
>note, a third rather than the tonic, it is "Old Smokey."
>
>EdYes, and it looks like it could have been the primary source for
Ives, etc.  Thanks, Ed.John
--
john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the
person of Jonathan Lighter, writes:> Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school,
> We have tortured every teacher, we have broken every rule,
> Now we're marching to the office to kill the principal,
> As we go marching on.  We have battered down the office door and killed the principule.
  The brats are marching home.(Pity to miss that rhyme.  For "principule" cf. "animule".)> Glory, glory, hallelujah,
> Teacher hit me with a ruler,
> I bopped her on the bean with a rotten tangerine,
> As we go marching on.  And the juice came trickling down.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Hopes, fears, plans, fantasies -- what's the difference?  :||

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 10:26 AM
Subject: Re: Battle Hymn parodies<<Here's a site with a number of kids' parodies:
http://home.earthlink.net/~kayshapero/child3.htmIt refreshed my memory - the alternative line I learned nearly half a
century ago was, "I met her at the door with a loaded .44."This one adds "met her in the attic with a German automatic" and "hit her in
the butt with a rotten coconut":http://inky.50megs.com/idlechild/songs/battlehymn.htm >>So far no one has picked up on "I bopped her on the bean with an atomic
submarine", which was current at my school.Peace,
Paul

On 12/14/04, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jonathan Lighter" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 10:26 AM
>Subject: Re: Battle Hymn parodies
>
>
><<Here's a site with a number of kids' parodies:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~kayshapero/child3.htm
>
>It refreshed my memory - the alternative line I learned nearly half a
>century ago was, "I met her at the door with a loaded .44."
>
>This one adds "met her in the attic with a German automatic" and "hit her in
>the butt with a rotten coconut":
>
>http://inky.50megs.com/idlechild/songs/battlehymn.htm >>
>
>So far no one has picked up on "I bopped her on the bean with an atomic
>submarine", which was current at my school.Is anyone assembling an actual file of these things? It would be
fascinating to see just how many variants are out there....The result should probably be made required reading for all those
seeking elementary education credentials, too. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

THis one went Transatlantic in a hurry--Adam McNaughtan sings it as a
Glasgow kid's song on his "words I UsedTo Know" CD
dick
Joe Fineman wrote:>Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the
>person of Jonathan Lighter, writes:
>
>
>
>>Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school,
>>We have tortured every teacher, we have broken every rule,
>>Now we're marching to the office to kill the principal,
>>As we go marching on.
>>
>>
>
>  We have battered down the office door and killed the principule.
>  The brats are marching home.
>
>(Pity to miss that rhyme.  For "principule" cf. "animule".)
>
>
>
>>Glory, glory, hallelujah,
>>Teacher hit me with a ruler,
>>I bopped her on the bean with a rotten tangerine,
>>As we go marching on.
>>
>>
>
>  And the juice came trickling down.
>--
>---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
>||:  Hopes, fears, plans, fantasies -- what's the difference?  :||
>
>
>
>

Does anyone else have:Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the
teach,
She is coming up the alley in a pink and yellow jeep.
One hand is on the throttle and the other on a bottle
Of Pabst Blue Ribbon beer.
(?)
This was usually followed by a Glory, glory chorus
that ended with either:
I met her in the attic with a loaded automatic, or
I met her at the door with a loaded .44.By the way, as to the continued transmittal of similar
playground and street lore: my grandchildren bring
home such goodies every week. I'll gather a few this
weekend and pass them on.Sandy (Connecticut)

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

dick greenhaus wrote:> THis one went Transatlantic in a hurry--Adam McNaughtan sings it as a
> Glasgow kid's song on his "words I UsedTo Know" CD> Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school,
> We have tortured every teacher, we have broken every rule,
> Now we're marching to the office to kill the principal,
> As we go marching on.I sang this one at school in Glasgow (1960s).--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
mailto:[unmask]

All this talk of parodies...One of my students used to sing this as a
girl in Edinburgh in the 1930s/40s:Good King Wenceslas looked out
On the feast of Stephen
As the snow lay lay round about
And the temperature was freezing.
Loud he shouted from above
"I've no Christmas fuel!"
"That's too bad!" the coalman said,
"But three flights up is cru-u-el!"[Janet Black, Edinburgh]--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
mailto:[unmask]

And we used to sing in Nottingham in the 1950s:Good King Wenceslas looked out
Of his bedroom winda
Silly bogger he fell out
On to a red hot cinder
Brightly shone his bum that night
Though the pain was cruel
When the doctor came in sight
Riding on a mu-u-el.Simon--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
mailto:[unmask]__________ NOD32 1.950 (20041216) Information __________This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.nod32.com

And I think we all remember Walt Kelly's parody in the comic strip "Pogo":
Good King Sauerkraut walked out
On his feets uneven
Where the snew lay round about
All kerchoo achievin'
"Snew? What's snew?"
"Nothing --  what's snew with you?"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Gatherer" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 3:54 AM
Subject: Good King Wenceslas...> All this talk of parodies...One of my students used to sing this as a
> girl in Edinburgh in the 1930s/40s:
>
> Good King Wenceslas looked out
> On the feast of Stephen
> As the snow lay lay round about
> And the temperature was freezing.
> Loud he shouted from above
> "I've no Christmas fuel!"
> "That's too bad!" the coalman said,
> "But three flights up is cru-u-el!"
>
> [Janet Black, Edinburgh]
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> mailto:[unmask]

Dear co-ordinator,
    Please remove me from the list. Thank you.
    Meng Yu

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the
person of Nigel Gatherer, writes:> All this talk of parodies...One of my students used to sing this as a
> girl in Edinburgh in the 1930s/40s:
>
> Good King Wenceslas looked out
> On the feast of Stephen [...]The familiar Christmas carol is itself a "parody", in the broad sense
in which that term seems to be used these days among folkie types.
The words were written by a 19th-century clergyman, J. M. Neale, TTTO
an old *spring* carol, "Tempus Adest Floridum", which has an English
version called "The Flower Carol" (RUS says it's in the _Oxford Book
of Carols_ but doesn't mention an author, so maybe it's trad. too).Turn about is fair play, and Neale's words have been translated into
Latin:REX WENCESLAUS
(Translated by Stephen A. Hurlbut)Sanctus Wenceslaus rex
 Stephani ad festum,
agrum vidit nivibus
 gelidis congestum.
Vidit pauperem sibi
 ligna colligentem,
qui sub luna splendida
 sensit se frigentem."Huc, O puer, siste huc,
 dicens, si cognoris,
quis sit, ubi habitet
 pauper iste foris?"
"Ere, procul habitat,
 subter illum montem,
silvae iuxta limitem,
 ad Agnetis fontem.""Affer carnem, vinum fer,
 lignum afferamus,
ut nos illi pauperi
 cenam praebeamus."
Rex et puer prodibant
 animo aequali,
vento flante acriter
 tempore brumali."Ere, nox fit atrior,
 ventus vi augetur;
plus non possum, nescio cur,
 valde cor terretur."
"Puer mi, vestigia tu
 sequere libenter;
hiems saeva laedet te
 minus violenter."Puer regem sequitur,
 unde nix discessit;
fervor glaebis inerat,
 ubi sanctus pressit.
Hoc scitote, divites,
 Christum qui amatis,
Vos beate eritis,
 si quem vos beatis.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  "I need a man who can say no to me when I talk nonsense.  :||
||:  Are you that man?"  "No."                                 :||

The 2005 volume of the FOLK MUSIC JOURNAL  (Vol.8 No.5) includes the following:
Christopher Heppa: Harry Cox and his Friends: Song Transmission in an East Norfolk Singing Community (pp.569-593)
E. Wyn James: Painting the World Green: Dafydd Iwan and the Welsh Protest Ballad (pp.594-618)
Lyn Wolz: The Anne G. Gilchrist Manuscript Collection (pp.619-639)
plus obituaries for Bruce Olson (by Ed Cray), Bob Copper, and Keith Summers.FOLKLORE Vol.115 No.3 (Dec 2004) includes: Stephen D. Winick: A.L. Lloyd and Reynardine: Authenticity and Authorship in the Afterlife of a British Broadside Ballad (pp.286-308)Steve RoudSignup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

The Oxford Book of Carols attributes the Flower Carol (99) (Spring), both
words and music, to Piae Cantiones, 1582  Tr. O.B.C.Barbara MillikanAt 05:29 AM 12/17/2004, you wrote:>Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the
>person of Nigel Gatherer, writes:
>
> > All this talk of parodies...One of my students used to sing this as a
> > girl in Edinburgh in the 1930s/40s:
> >
> > Good King Wenceslas looked out
> > On the feast of Stephen [...]
>
>The familiar Christmas carol is itself a "parody", in the broad sense
>in which that term seems to be used these days among folkie types.
>The words were written by a 19th-century clergyman, J. M. Neale, TTTO
>an old *spring* carol, "Tempus Adest Floridum", which has an English
>version called "The Flower Carol" (RUS says it's in the _Oxford Book
>of Carols_ but doesn't mention an author, so maybe it's trad. too).

Hi!        Happy Holidays to everyone!!! :-) :-) :-)        SONGSTERS        2294386424 - Lookout Mountain Songster No. 1, 1880's, $4.99 (ends
Dec-21-04 05:32:57 PST)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        4512546683 - LIFT UP YOUR HEAD TOM DOOLEY by West, 1993, $1
w/reserve (ends Dec-19-04 17:07:38 PST)        6939770767 - THE BOOK OF AMERICAN NEGRO SPIRITUALS by Johnson,
1925, $36.99 (ends Dec-19-04 18:31:39 PST)        4512039493 - Irish Folk History by Glassie, 1982, $9.99 (ends
Dec-19-04 19:49:25 PST)        3769094923 - Mountain Ballads Old Time Songs Book #7 by Kincaid,
1936, $15 (ends Dec-20-04 17:30:00 PST)        6939921901 - People Behave Like Ballads by Coffin, 1946, $4.99
(ends Dec-20-04 18:45:00 PST)        4512452171 - Cotswold Ballads by Mansell, 1974, 4.95 GBP (ends
Dec-21-04 09:23:44 PST)        4511932320 - CURIOSITIES OF STREET LITERATURE by Hindley, 1969,
9.99 GBP (ends Dec-22-04 12:22:30 PST)        4511951557 - LOVING MAD TOM by Lindsay, 1969, 9.99 GBP (ends
Dec-22-04 13:43:02 PST)        3770094859 - The Kentucky Korn Kracker Blue Grass Roy with a
Sensational Collection of Mountain Ballads and Old Time Songs, 1931, $6
(ends Dec-22-04 18:00:51 PST)        4512798036 - The Big Book of Australian Folk Songs by Edwards,
1976, $24.95 AU (ends Dec-22-04 19:14:56 PST) (also 3770121136)        4513023176 - Builder's Labourer's Songbook, 1975, $4 AU (ends
Dec-24-04 02:52:20 PST)        6940282185 - JAMAICA ANANSI STORIES by Beckwith, 1924, $9.99 (ends
Dec-24-04 11:48:00 PST)        6940052300 - album of nineteenth century sheet music, $99.99 AU
(ends Dec-24-04 21:06:19 PST)        4513154060 - FOLK SONGS OF THE BLUE RIDGE MOUNTAINS by Shellans,
1968, $7.99 (ends Dec-24-04 21:40:11 PST)        3770502356 - Four Vintage Song Books, 1935-43, $9.99 (ends
Dec-25-04 04:52:32 PST)        3770547100 - 5 Vintage Song Books, 1930-37, $9.99 (ends Dec-25-04
11:06:15 PST)        4512923666 - A Song Catcher in the Southern Mountains: American Folk
Songs of British Ancestry by Scarborough, 1966 reprint, $12.50 (ends
Dec-26-04 19:15:00 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Is 'bigjacka' one of our brethren?
If not I'd like to go after the copy of Scarborough.
SteveG

On Sun, Dec 19, 2004 at 01:16:45PM -0500, Steve Gardham wrote:
> Date:         Sun, 19 Dec 2004 13:16:45 -0500
> From:         Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Ebay List - 12/18/04
> To:           [unmask]
>
> Is 'bigjacka' one of our brethren?
> If not I'd like to go after the copy of Scarborough.
> SteveG
>Steve,        Yes- Bigjacka is a list member. I don't remember which at the
moment but definitely a member.                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dear Jonathan,In the liner notes his 1967 Folkways LP (FA 240) "The Wandering  
Folksong," Sam Hinton uses the Nora McShane melody for his East Texas  
version of "Cowboy's Lament" (Streets of Laredo), as well as "Lake  
Chemo."It is a very good tune.  The recording is still available from  
Smithsonian-Folkways.-Adam Miller
Woodside, CAOn Dec 19, 2004, at 5:02 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:> It's been said that the "secondary" tune of "The Cowboy's Lament"/  
> "Streets of Laredo" - the one that always accompanies the words "My  
> home's in Montana, I wear a bandanna" and frequently used to carry the  
> "Laredo" words - is that of an Irish song called "Nora McShane."
> ?
> I find only?"Norah McShane," words by Miss Eliza Cook, music by  
> Charles Horn, Jr. (N.Y.: C. E. Horn, 1841)
>
> http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?mussm:1:./temp/~ammem_zCEy::
> There were?later arrangements? by W. J. Wetmore. M.D.:
>
>
> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl? 
> record=128.024.000&pages=4
>
> and by W. D. Sutch in Australia:
>
>
> http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/cdview?pi=nla.mus-an6258406-s2-v
>
> So far as I can tell, none?of these melodies resembles "My Home's in  
> Montana."? Am I missing something? The modern cowboy song does,  
> however, bear a marked resemblance to "Molly Malone," composed in  
> 1884.
>
> BTW, the Confederate staff officer and novelist John Esten Cooke  
> described "Norah McShane" as "exquisite" in his 1869 novel, "Mohun,"  
> p. 431.
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.

Good King Wenceslas looked out
On his cabbage garden
Bumped into a brussel sprout
And said "I beg your pardon."Southern England, circa late 1950sHeather

Sorry to push the carol parodies again, but there must be just as many for
this one.We three kings of Beverley Bar,
One on a bike and one in a car,
One on a scooter bibbing his hooter,
Going through Beverley Bar.Beverley Bar is an ancient gateway to the town of Beverley, Yorkshire.SteveG

Steve Gardham wrote:> Sorry to push the carol parodies again, but there must be just as
> many for this one.> We three kings...As a boy in Glasgow in the 1960s, we sang this one, which I bet is
really widespread...We three Beatles of Liverpool are
John in a taxi, Paul in a car,
George on his scooter tooting his hooter
Followed by Ringo Starr.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
mailto:[unmask]

Absolutely widespread! I picked that version up in Germany (K?n) in about
1964!
Cheers
Simon -----Original Message-----
Nigel Gatherer wrote:As a boy in Glasgow in the 1960s, we sang this one, which I bet is
really widespread...We three Beatles of Liverpool are
John in a taxi, Paul in a car,
George on his scooter tooting his hooter
Followed by Ringo Starr.

I see that Bruce's website is now back online.  The new url is http://web.archive.org/web/20031225051905/http://users.erols.com/olsonw/Many thanks, Ed, for following up on this.Cheers
Jamie

Jamie:I take no credit for this.  I think it the doing of the Olson sons.I  am trying to get the family's permission to move or mirror the Olson database to the more permanent Fresno State folk song site.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: James Moreira <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:43 am
Subject: Olson broadside index> I see that Bruce's website is now back online.  The new url is
> http://web.archive.org/web/20031225051905/http://users.erols.com/olsonw/
> Many thanks, Ed, for following up on this.
>
> Cheers
> Jamie
>

Hi!        #*%)@! 3 day auctions! As a result, here is a supplemental Ebay
list containing a few items coming up between now and Dec. 25. :-(        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        4513427308 - Ozark Folksongs by Randolph volume 3, 1980, $9.95
(ends Dec-22-04 18:21:57 PST)        3770604622 - LITTLE JIMMIE'S SONGS OF HOME AND HEAVEN, 1939, $2.99
(ends Dec-23-04 18:20:12 PST)        3861628955 - BIG SLIM - THE LONE COWBOY Favorite songs, 1937, $5
(ends Dec-23-04 20:23:44 PST) This seller has a number of songbooks similar
to this dated from 1935 to 1945. Check seller's other auctions if interested.        4512587483 - 2 books (The Penguin Book of Australian Ballads by
Ward, 1978 printing & Traditional British Ballads - A Selection by Whiting,
1955), $6.99 (ends Dec-25-04 19:40:00 PST)        6940382211 - English & Scottish Popular Ballads by Child, 5 volumes
in 3 books, 1956 Folklore Press edition, $235 (ends Dec-25-04 20:52:17 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Or if you prefer a little more jaunty rhythm,Bumped his head on a brussels sprout...Of course, you can't say Brussels when referring to vegetables any more,
because the Belgians have taken exception. So when I have washed my
sprout down with a sparkling wine not from Champagne and knocked back a
brandy not from Cognac, I shall just slice myself a chunk of Cheddar,
which apparently can be Canadian or New Zealand...Heather Wood wrote:
>
> Good King Wenceslas looked out
> On his cabbage garden
> Bumped into a brussel sprout
> And said "I beg your pardon."
>
> Southern England, circa late 1950s
>
> Heather

----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 21 December 2004 20:03
Subject: Re: Olson broadside index> Jamie:
>
> I take no credit for this.  I think it the doing of the Olson sons.
>
> I  am trying to get the family's permission to move or mirror the Olson database to the more
permanent Fresno State folk song site.
>
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: James Moreira <[unmask]>
> Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 11:43 am
> Subject: Olson broadside index
>
> > I see that Bruce's website is now back online.  The new url is
> > http://web.archive.org/web/20031225051905/http://users.erols.com/olsonw/
> > Many thanks, Ed, for following up on this.
> >
> > Cheers
> > JamieIt's one of several "snapshots" of the site kept at the Internet Archive, which periodically records
all manner of websites (they reckon to have some 30 billion pages, dating back to 1996); the Olsons
may not even be aware of it.  This url will display all the archived iterations of Bruce's site,
from 2000 to 2004:http://web.archive.org/web/*sa_/http://users.erols.com/olsonw/Malcolm Douglas

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Today's my day to send out the Central Florida monthly folk news, "Folking
Around."  The Orlando library puts on a small, good music bit Fridays at
noon, some of which are folk or "folk."  (The artists aren't paid but then,
there's no charge to the public.  My essence will not permit me to work for
the County for free [without duress] and last time I demanded and received
free parking for the event and a glass of good water.]I've had no notice of January's events and their website has been bare but I
checked it "just in case" late last night - selecting January, All & Music
at www.ocls.info/Events/EventsCalendar.asp I was very much surprised to see:=======
30 January, 2005 ( Sunday )        Main Library
2:00 pm - 3:00 pm
An Elizabethan Musical Tribute
Traditional music performers Tom COok and Abbey Sale present songs from
England and Ireland from the Elizabethan and Jacobean periods (c.
1550-1625). These ballads are some of the earliest examples of modern
European music.
=======So, if this is true, I have to come up with, say four or five songs from the
period _that I know._  Sadly, Lang a-Growing appears at least a decade too
late if you accept that he was Craigstoun.  And I don't find any early Earl
of Murray.I'm sure I don't sing any with tunes or style of that era (I don't & won't
sing Greensleeves.)  But for the period, off hand, I can come up with:Froggie Went a-Courting (1580)
High Barbary (1590 or so?)
Fair Flower of Northumberland (1596?)
King John and the Bishop (earlier than 1689?)
Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens (1611)
Martin Said To His Man (1609)?  I don't file Songs I Know by date.Any advice much appreciated.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida

Some off the cuff reflections.  The song "Let the back and side go bare,
go bare, Hands and feet go cold, But belly God send thee ale enough,
Whether it be new or old,"  clearly dates from that era. It was
published in Gammer Gurton's Needle (? title inexact) which was
published, as I recall, prior to 1600."The battle of harlow" certainly describes an event that preceded that
time period. I don't know for sure what time period it is attributed to.I remember seeing a reference that "Three jolly robbers" dates from
that time period. What about "Captain Ward and the Rainbow" or  Henry
Martin?  I will be able later today to see what definitive info I can
find. I assume that you are looking for songs whose dates can be
authenticated (rather than, say, simply assuming that the whole Child
canon fits).I think you were smart to hold out for the glass of good water.
Perhaps you can raise the stakes to two glasses, but that might be
pushing it.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 12/23/2004 10:23:17 AM >>>
Today's my day to send out the Central Florida monthly folk news,
"Folking
Around."  The Orlando library puts on a small, good music bit Fridays
at
noon, some of which are folk or "folk."  (The artists aren't paid but
then,
there's no charge to the public.  My essence will not permit me to work
for
the County for free [without duress] and last time I demanded and
received
free parking for the event and a glass of good water.]I've had no notice of January's events and their website has been bare
but I
checked it "just in case" late last night - selecting January, All &
Music
at www.ocls.info/Events/EventsCalendar.asp I was very much surprised to
see:=======
30 January, 2005 ( Sunday )        Main Library
2:00 pm - 3:00 pm
An Elizabethan Musical Tribute
Traditional music performers Tom COok and Abbey Sale present songs
from
England and Ireland from the Elizabethan and Jacobean periods (c.
1550-1625). These ballads are some of the earliest examples of modern
European music.
=======So, if this is true, I have to come up with, say four or five songs
from the
period _that I know._  Sadly, Lang a-Growing appears at least a decade
too
late if you accept that he was Craigstoun.  And I don't find any early
Earl
of Murray.I'm sure I don't sing any with tunes or style of that era (I don't &
won't
sing Greensleeves.)  But for the period, off hand, I can come up with:Froggie Went a-Courting (1580)
High Barbary (1590 or so?)
Fair Flower of Northumberland (1596?)
King John and the Bishop (earlier than 1689?)
Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens
(1611)
Martin Said To His Man (1609)?  I don't file Songs I Know by date.Any advice much appreciated.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida

----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 23 December 2004 15:23
Subject: c. 1550-1625> I'm sure I don't sing any with tunes or style of that era (I don't & won't
> sing Greensleeves.)  But for the period, off hand, I can come up with:
>
> Froggie Went a-Courting (1580)
> High Barbary (1590 or so?)
> Fair Flower of Northumberland (1596?)
> King John and the Bishop (earlier than 1689?)
> Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens (1611)
> Martin Said To His Man (1609) You can see words and music as printed by Ravenscroft for 'Three Ravens', 'Martin Said To His Man'
and 'It was the Frogge in the well,' among others, athttp://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ravenscroft/deuteromelia/andhttp://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ravenscroft/melismata/'Twa Corbies' is likely to be rather less old, and you'll recall that the tune usually used nowadays
is a recent borrowing from Brittany.Malcolm Douglas

Away from my child's at the moment, but can you not add : The Twa Sisters and the Cruel Mother?  And what about "King Henry" - it shares a plot with a tale told in Chaucer's canterbury tales.Happy Holidays-Liz in Rainy new hampshire  -----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Malcolm Douglas
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:20 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: c. 1550-1625----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 23 December 2004 15:23
Subject: c. 1550-1625> I'm sure I don't sing any with tunes or style of that era (I don't & won't
> sing Greensleeves.)  But for the period, off hand, I can come up with:
>
> Froggie Went a-Courting (1580)
> High Barbary (1590 or so?)
> Fair Flower of Northumberland (1596?)
> King John and the Bishop (earlier than 1689?)
> Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens (1611)
> Martin Said To His Man (1609) You can see words and music as printed by Ravenscroft for 'Three Ravens', 'Martin Said To His Man'
and 'It was the Frogge in the well,' among others, athttp://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ravenscroft/deuteromelia/andhttp://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ravenscroft/melismata/'Twa Corbies' is likely to be rather less old, and you'll recall that the tune usually used nowadays
is a recent borrowing from Brittany.Malcolm Douglas

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I note that Bronson's comments to the Child ballads and tunes includes
notes which help date - or at least establish the antiquity of - various
ballads.  The first one, Riddles Wisely expounded [Lay the bent to the
bonny broome]seemed to be in the time period you are looking for.  I
didn't check the rest, but some clearly have no attribution until they
turned up in one collection or another (e..g., Sheath and Knife, as I
recall).Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 12/23/2004 10:23:17 AM >>>
Today's my day to send out the Central Florida monthly folk news,
"Folking
Around."  The Orlando library puts on a small, good music bit Fridays
at
noon, some of which are folk or "folk."  (The artists aren't paid but
then,
there's no charge to the public.  My essence will not permit me to work
for
the County for free [without duress] and last time I demanded and
received
free parking for the event and a glass of good water.]I've had no notice of January's events and their website has been bare
but I
checked it "just in case" late last night - selecting January, All &
Music
at www.ocls.info/Events/EventsCalendar.asp I was very much surprised to
see:=======
30 January, 2005 ( Sunday )        Main Library
2:00 pm - 3:00 pm
An Elizabethan Musical Tribute
Traditional music performers Tom COok and Abbey Sale present songs
from
England and Ireland from the Elizabethan and Jacobean periods (c.
1550-1625). These ballads are some of the earliest examples of modern
European music.
=======So, if this is true, I have to come up with, say four or five songs
from the
period _that I know._  Sadly, Lang a-Growing appears at least a decade
too
late if you accept that he was Craigstoun.  And I don't find any early
Earl
of Murray.I'm sure I don't sing any with tunes or style of that era (I don't &
won't
sing Greensleeves.)  But for the period, off hand, I can come up with:Froggie Went a-Courting (1580)
High Barbary (1590 or so?)
Fair Flower of Northumberland (1596?)
King John and the Bishop (earlier than 1689?)
Is Twa Corbies with the usual modern tune the same as Three Ravens
(1611)
Martin Said To His Man (1609)?  I don't file Songs I Know by date.Any advice much appreciated.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida

On 12/23/04, Abby Sale wrote:[ ... ]>?  I don't file Songs I Know by date.The Ballad Index does, though I'm thinking I need to revamp the
format to make things easier to find. The following list shows
everything I can find with searches for the relevant decades or
earlier. Many of these are not folk songs, some are not sung,
and in some cases the cited examples may be false. Still, there
are a fair number of options here. :-)The list below gives the Ballad Index title, then the date information
on the next line, indented.A La Claire Fontaine
                1865 (apparently referred to in 1608)Adam Bell, Clim of the Clough, and William of Cloudesly [Child 116]
                1536Agincourt Carol, The
                before 1500 (Bodlein MS Selden B. 26); hints in chronicles imply that it was sung at Henry V's return to England 1415/16Baffled Knight, The [Child 112]
                1609 (Ravenscroft)Battle of Otterburn, The [Child 161]
                c. 1550Blind Beggar's Daughter of Bednall Green, The [Laws N27]
                1624Boar's Head Carol, The
                1790 (Ritson); earliest versions c. 1500 (Hill MS., Balliol Coll. Oxf. 354; Wales Nayional Library Porkington 10)Brian O'Lynn (Tom Boleyn)
                1849 (Halliwell, citing a book printed c. 1560; reputedly mentioned in The Complaynt of Scotland, 1548)Bring Us Good Ale
                c. 1475 (MS. Bodl. 29734)Brown Adam [Child 98]
                1494 (Ritson-Tytler-Brown ms.)Callino Casturame (Colleen Og a Store; Cailin O Chois tSiure; Happy 'Tis, Thou Blind, for Thee)
                1933 (title known to and music arranged by William Byrd, died 1623)Children in the Wood, The  (The Babes in the Woods) [Laws Q34]
                1595? (title of piece in Stationer's Register)Corpus Christi Carol, The
                c. 1504 (Hill MS., Balliol Coll. Oxf. 354)Coventry Carol, The
                1591 (colophon of original lost manuscript)Drink To Me Only With Thine Eyes
                1616 (as part of "To Celia," in "The Workes of Benjamin Jonson"); tune in print by 1780Dulcina
                1707 (Pills to Purge Melancholy; registered 1615)Fair Flower of Northumberland, The [Child 9]
                1597 (book reprinted in 1859); 1790 (Ritson)Fire Ship, The
                1612 (London broadside, "Watten's Town End")Fortune My Foe (Aim Not Too High)
                1610 (W. Corkine's Instruction Book for the Lute)Frog Went A-Courting
                1549 (Wedderburn's "Complaynt of Scotland")George Aloe and the Sweepstake, The [Child 285; Laws K33]
                1670 (the title is mentioned 1611; a fragment is found in 1634)Gest of Robyn Hode, A [Child 117]
                before 1534Go From My Window (I)
                1611 (The Knight of the Burning Pestle)Golden Carol, The (The Three Kings)
                c. 1475 (Bodleian ms. Eng. Poet. e. 1)Greensleeves
                1580 (Stationer's Register; the first surviving printing is from _A Handful of Pleasant Delights_,1584, and we first find the tune in 1652)Hunting of the Cheviot, The [Child 162]
                1765 (Percy; mentioned in "Wit's End" in 1617 and in the Stationer's Register in 1624)I Gave My Love a Cherry
                c. 1430 (British Museum -- Sloane MS. 2593, "I have a yong suster")It Was a Lover and His Lass
                1600 (Morley's "The First Book of Ayres or Little Short Songs")Jane Shore
                1765 (Percy); reference in the Stationer's Register in 1603, but no copy recoveredJerusalem, My Happy Home (Long Sought Home)
                1941 (Ault); version from c. 1601 in "The Song of MaryJohn Dory [Child 284]
                1609 (Ravenscroft)Jolly Good Ale and Old (Back and Sides Go Bare)
                1575 (Gammer Gurton's Needle)Jolly Pinder of Wakefield, The [Child 124]
                1663 (Stationer's Register entry from 1558)Judas [Child 23]
                c. 1300 (ms. Trinity College B 14.39, f. 34a)Katie Cruel (The Leeboy's Lassie; I Know Where I'm Going)
                1611 (quoted by Beaumont & Fletcher)King Edward the Fourth and a Tanner of Tamworth [Child 273]
                1765 (Percy) (entered in the Stationer's Register in 1589)Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard [Child 81]
                1611 (Beaumont & Fletcher)Lord Willoughby
                1765 (Percy); tune known from 1603 (Robinson's "Schoole of Musick")Lord of Lorn and the False Steward, The [Child 271]
                1580 (stationer's register)Make We Merry Both More and Less
                c. 1504 (Hill MS., Balliol Coll. Oxf. 354)Martin Said To His Man
                1609 (Deuteromelia; registered as a ballad 1588)Mary Ambree
                1765 (Percy; alluded to by Ben Johnson, 1609)Nut-Brown Maid, The
                1707 ("The Muses Mercury"); earlier found in Arnold's "Chronicle" of c. 1521Of All the Birds
                1609 (Deuteromelia)Old Hundred
                1560Packington's Pound
                1596 (Barley's "New Book of Tablature")Robin Hood and Little John [Child 125]
                1624 (Stationer's Register)Robin Hood and the Monk [Child 119]
                ms. Cambridge Ff. 5.48, c. 1450Robyn and Gandeleyn [Child 115]
                c. 1430 (British Museum -- Sloane MS. 2593); printed by Ritson 1790Rogue, The
                1620 (in Bishop Percy Folio Manuscript as the fragmentary "A Dainty Ducke")Romish Lady, The [Laws Q32]
                1586 (stationer's register)Saint Stephen and Herod [Child 22]
                1856, from ms of c. 1430 ( (British Museum -- Sloane MS. 2593)Sea Crab, The
                c. 1620 (Percy Folio Manuscripts)Seaman and His Love, A (The Welcome Sailor) [Laws N29]
                1620 (Stationer's Register -- apparently)Spanish Lady's Love, The
                1728 (registered 1603, and quoted in 1616)Sumer Is I-cumen In
                fourteenth century or earlier (MS. Harley 978, generally dated c. 1225-1250)Tam Lin [Child 39]
                1769 (a report from 1549 calls it "old")Three Blind Mice
                1609 (Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia)Three Jolly Huntsmen
                1613 (earliest complete form 1219?)Three Ravens, The [Child 26]
                1611 (Ravenscroft)Valiant London Apprentice, The [Laws Q38]
                c. 1595Walsingham
                1765 (Percy folio; tune dates at least to 1596)Watkin's Ale
                mentioned twice in 1592 (Mundy, Chettle)When Jones's Ale Was New
                1594 (stationer's register)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Queen Jane's child was Edward VI, who, as I recall, died at the age of
16. An online source dates the ballad as 1612.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 12/23/2004 1:26:58 PM >>>
I had been told the death of Queen jane has some historical issues that
would suggest that it was later in date- like the court rejoicing at the
birth of the child over Jane's cold corpse...Did not Jane's child die at
birth along with the queen?-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars
[mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf Of Fred McCormick
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:22 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: c. 1550-1625Bert Lloyd had an idea that The Cutty Wren dated back to the peasant's
revolt (1381), but his evidence was conjectural  to put it mildly. I
doubt anyone would take his claim serously nowadays.I didn't notice it in any of the other contributions, but what about
The Death of Queen Jane. Also, does Six Dukes Went a Fishing not date
from that era ?CheersFred McCormick.In a message dated 23/12/2004 17:10:37 GMT Standard Time,
[unmask] writes:The Cutty Wren i believe dates back to at least 1381. The Lyke Wake
Dirge is old too.Heather in rainy New York

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Check out my Jacobean music and dance page.....http://www.bcpl.net/~cbladey/guy/html/music.htmlAll we have for that period for Fawkes and Gunpowder plot are lyrical
poems sometimes called songs. Lots of others on the page.Conrad

(And earlier)"Songs from Shakespear's Plays". Tom Kines. Oak
Publications. ISBN 8256-0068-5"The British Broadside Ballad and its Music". Claude
M. Simpson. Rutgers University Press. Library of
Congress Catalog Number 63-16308. 500+ to choose from.PDF files (within reason) available:
cliffabrams(AT)yahoo.comCA

On 12/23/04, Steiner, Margaret wrote:>As I recall, Jane died of childbed fever.  Wasn't Edward her son?  I think that's right.  He lived into youth but was sickly.  I could have that wrong.Jane Seymour (died 1537) was the mother of Edward VI (1537-1553).
We don't have real details of how she died, but since it was almost
two weeks after the birth, childbed fever is possible -- though that's
not quite as likely in her case as in some others. Childbed fever
(a catchall term for various diseases, of course) was usually
spread by doctors working on multiple patients. Less likely to happen
to a queen. :-)FWIW, the Ballad Index will usually supply historical background on
songs like this. For "Queen Jane," e.g., we have these dates:1536 - Execution of Henry VIII's second wife Anne
   Boleyn. His marriage to Jane Seymour (one of Anne's women in waiting)
   follows swiftly
Oct 12, 1537 - Birth of the future Edward VI
Oct 24, 1537 - Death of Jane SeymourPlus we have some external background:This ballad is also, as "Dronning Dagmar (Queen Dagmar)," found in Danish
   tradition. - PJS
If actually the same song, the Danish version would appear to be much older;
   the most famous Dagmar in Danish history was the daughter of Ottocar I of
   Bohemia and the wife of Valdemar II (c. 1170-1241; reigned 1202-1241).
   They were married in 1215; she died in 1222, leaving a son who, in an
   interesting coincidence, predeceased his father, meaning that the Danish
   throne went to younger half-brothers.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> The Sloane ms.words corresponding to "I gave my Love a Cherry" may
> not even have been sung in the period; if they were, it was almost
> certainly not to the now familiar American tune; and the
> fifteenth-century words are no longer easily singable anyway.If the words are the same as in the version of "I have a young sister"
I've seen elsewhere, it can mostly be translated/transposed into modern
English:I have a young sister who lives beyond the sea;
Many a fine present she has given me.
She gave me a cherry without a stone;
She gave me a pigeon without a bone;
She gave me a briar without a rind;
She bade me love my true love without longing."Pigeon" isn't completely satisfactory, and "rind" is definitely
unsatisfactory.  "True love" is close enough to "leman," I think.  (The
first book I saw this song in explained that "leman" meant "mistress" --
which is probably not true for this song.)--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

May I add"Shakespeare's Songbook" Ross W. Duffin with foreword by Stephen Orgel,
Norton 2004. It includes an 81-track companion audio CD, mostly of
seconds-like "tasters", though some songs are in full. The book contains
160 songs.AndyCliff Abrams wrote:
>
> (And earlier)
>
> "Songs from Shakespear's Plays". Tom Kines. Oak
> Publications. ISBN 8256-0068-5
>
> "The British Broadside Ballad and its Music". Claude
> M. Simpson. Rutgers University Press. Library of
> Congress Catalog Number 63-16308. 500+ to choose from.
>
> PDF files (within reason) available:
> cliffabrams(AT)yahoo.com
>
> CA

Jonathan -- and Eavesdroppers:This is a variant/version oif the quasi-ballad I have entitled "Snapoo" in  the second edition of _The Erotic Muse._  See the the notes at pp. 382-84, which do not include, but should  -- I am ashamed toi say -- the Thompson  _Body, Boots and Britches_ cited below,It is also related, in one way or another, to "Bollocky Bill, the Sailor," for which see  pp. 81-86, op. cit.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2004 6:34 pm
Subject: "Three Pirates"> Here's a puzzling little song : "The Three Pirates."
> 
> The earliest appearance of the song I have found in print
> is in Howard Thompson's collection of New York State folklore, 
> "Body, Boots, and Britches" (1940), as collected from Nelle [sic] 
> A. Schmidt of Utica, N.Y., app. in the 1930s. Schmidt may have been 
> one of Thompson's students.
> 
> Here is the text of that version:
> 
> Three pirates came to London town�Yo-ho, yo-ho!
> Three pirates came to London town�Yo-ho, yo-ho!
> Three pirates came to London town
> To see the King put on his crown.
> Yo-ho, ye lubbers, yo-ho, ye lubbers; yo-ho, yo-ho, yo-ho!
> 
> At first they came to a wayside inn,
> And said, �Good landlord, let us in!�
> 
> �O landlord, have you good red wine
> Enough to fill this cask of mine?�
> 
> �O landlord, have you bags of gold
> Enough to fill the after-hold?�
> 
> �O landlord, have you daughter fair
> With laughing eyes and curly hair?
> 
> �O landlord, will she marry me,
> And sail with me across the sea?�
> 
> The "Yo ho, you lubbers" refrain is obviously connected with 
> versions of  "Three German Officers" that have "Yo ho, you 
> buggers." I believe that these versions are all sung to the (minor) 
> tune of "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" rather than that of 
> (major)"Hinky Dinky Parley-Voo," another close relative.
> 
> Schmidt's version is two stanzas shorter than texts published years 
> later in school songbooks. She may well have picked up the song 
> from a so-far untraced schoolbook publication and forgotten the two 
> stanzas. Thompson does not mention ever collecting another text of 
> it. The song is certainly in the romantic style of a music-hall (or 
> children's) song of the later 19th or early 20th century.  A search 
> of the Library of Congress (including American Memory)and British 
> Library catalogues reveals no early texts or copyrights. And there 
> is no broadside listed in either the Bodleian or Madden collections.
> 
> So the real questions remain: Where did "The Three Pirates" come 
> from, and how is it related to "Three German Officers," "Parley-
> Voo," and any similar items? I've been keeping my eyes open for 
> clues for years, but have found nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today!
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]><<Plus we have some external background:This ballad is also, as "Dronning Dagmar (Queen Dagmar)," found in Danish
   tradition. - PJS
If actually the same song, the Danish version would appear to be much older;
   the most famous Dagmar in Danish history was the daughter of Ottocar I of
   Bohemia and the wife of Valdemar II (c. 1170-1241; reigned 1202-1241).
   They were married in 1215; she died in 1222, leaving a son who, in an
   interesting coincidence, predeceased his father, meaning that the Danish
   throne went to younger half-brothers.>>That sounds about right; the king in the Danish ballad is indeed named
Valdemar.Here's the only translaion I have of the Danish song. It comes from a
revival source, the band Phonix, but they tend to get their material from
scholarly sources -- they cite "Danmarks Gamle Folkeviser" ("Old Popular
Ballades of Denmark") and the folklorists Evald Tang Kristensen and Michael
Poulsen.Queen Dagmar is lying sick in Ribe
They await her in Ringsted.But her husband sits in Skanderborg
She calls for him to be brought to her.King Valdemar rode out of Skanderborg followed by one hundred men.
But when he came to Ribe bridge he did ride on alone.And now joy fades in Denmark.
There was great lamentation among the maids.
Queen Dagmar did so writhe about her.
Two doctors were called forth to cut the baby from her side.There was great lamentation amongst the maids.
They wept and wailed sorely.
Queen Dagmar she died in the arms of her lady-in-waiting
as the king rode up the road.
And now joy fades in Denmark.King Valdemar stood very still
His heart turned to stone.
"If only Our Lord would be so good to me
That I might again speak to Dagmar."Queen Dagmar sat up on her bier.
Blood red were her eyes.
"My noble husband, King Valdemar
Why do you waken me from the dead?"
And now joy fades in Denmark.The maids took Queen Dagmar in their arms and laid her on her bier.
King Valdemar stood and watched and let fall many a tear.
And now joy fades in Denmark.So there are parallels, at least. Maybe no cigar; I may have been too hasty
to call them the same, but there are certainly parallels. It'd be good to
see other versions.Peace,
Paul

On Friday, December 24, 2004 2:01 AM Paul Stamler wrote
>
> This ballad is also, as "Dronning Dagmar (Queen Dagmar)," found in Danish
>   tradition. - PJS
> If actually the same song, the Danish version would appear to be much
> older;
>   the most famous Dagmar in Danish history was the daughter of Ottocar I
> of
>   Bohemia and the wife of Valdemar II (c. 1170-1241; reigned 1202-1241).
>   They were married in 1215; she died in 1222, leaving a son who, in an
>   interesting coincidence, predeceased his father, meaning that the Danish
>   throne went to younger half-brothers.>>
>
> That sounds about right; the king in the Danish ballad is indeed named
> Valdemar.
>
> Here's the only translaion I have of the Danish song. It comes from a
> revival source, the band Phonix, but they tend to get their material from
> scholarly sources -- they cite "Danmarks Gamle Folkeviser" ("Old Popular
> Ballades of Denmark") and the folklorists Evald Tang Kristensen and
> Michael
> Poulsen.
>Re "Queen Dagmar's Death" translated in R.C. Alexander Prior _Ancient Danish
Ballads_ (1860), Vol. II, No. LXII, pp. 136-140: "Dagmar, the first wife of
King Waldmar the second, died at Ribe in the year 1212, and is buried at
Ringsted by the side of her husband." The plot is very close to "The Death
of Queen Jane."  However, the king reaches her side after she has died. The
king asks that everyone pray that he be allowed to hear her wishes. The
Queen wakes, asks that all prisoners be released, that Berngerd [Berengaria]
not be taken as a wife, and that her youngest son Knud be heir to the crown.
Finally, she explains the reason for her death and damnation: "Had I on a
Sunday not laced my sleeves, Or border upon them sewn, No pangs had I felt
by day or night, Or torture of hell-fire known." She returns to death.Maybe Prior has the dates wrong.  He claims that the bodies had of Valdemar,
Dagmar and Berengaria had been exhumed a few years before his writing
(1860).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 24 December 2004 07:01
Subject: Re: Jane Seymour (Was: Re: c. 1550-1625)> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>> This ballad is also, as "Dronning Dagmar (Queen Dagmar)," found in Danish
>    tradition. - PJS
> If actually the same song, the Danish version would appear to be much older;
>    the most famous Dagmar in Danish history was the daughter of Ottocar I of
>    Bohemia and the wife of Valdemar II (c. 1170-1241; reigned 1202-1241).
>    They were married in 1215; she died in 1222, leaving a son who, in an
>    interesting coincidence, predeceased his father, meaning that the Danish
>    throne went to younger half-brothers.>>> Here's the only translaion I have of the Danish song. It comes from a
> revival source, the band Phonix, but they tend to get their material from
> scholarly sources -- they cite "Danmarks Gamle Folkeviser" ("Old Popular
> Ballades of Denmark") and the folklorists Evald Tang Kristensen and Michael
> Poulsen.( ....... )> So there are parallels, at least. Maybe no cigar; I may have been too hasty
> to call them the same, but there are certainly parallels. It'd be good to
> see other versions.Now that's interesting. Child didn't mention 'Dronning Dagmar', though the parallel really is very
striking and the song seems to be well enough known in Denmark. There's a text to be seen, with
melody in midi format, athttp://www.ugle.dk/dronning_dagmar_ligger_i_ribe_syg.htmlAudio of the arrangement Paul mentions can be found athttp://www.phonixfolk.dk/Malcolm Douglas

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Folks:I pause amid the seasonal tumult long enough to wish my friends and colleagues on ballad-l who celebrate the holiday a merry Christmas.Peace on this troubled, despoiled earthEd.

Jonathan:I would guess that your "Three Pirates" is a bowdlerized version of the WW I "Snapoo."  "Pirates" is close to "privates," is it not?  The 1930s date on this singular appearance also suggests this.As to the origins of the ballad, I presume you have digested Gershon Legman's notes to "Snapoo" in volume one of the Randolph bawdy song collection, _Roll Me in Your Arms,_ No. 85B.When will we see the fruits of your research into the "Hinky Dinky" family?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, December 24, 2004 6:13 am
Subject: Re: "Three Pirates"> Thanks, Ed.  I've had your book on my shelves - both editions - for 
> many years.  There's no doubt that "Three Pirates" is related to 
> "Snapoo," "Hinky Dinky," etc.  But where did it come from ?  It 
> seems unlikely to have preceded the infamous "Three German 
> Officers"  (clearly a descendant of "Snapoo"), but do we know this 
> for sure?
> 
> And while we're at it, I've been collecting traditional versions 
> and fragments of "Hinky Dinky Parley-Voo,"  "Snapoo," "Skiboo," 
> "Taboo," etc.  I believe I have everything in print and on the Net, 
> plus what's in R. W. Gordon's "Inferno"  - altogether about 150 
> (mostly fragmentary) texts. If anybody out there knows any stanzas 
> learned from people rather than print, please let me know.
> 
> JL
> 
> edward cray <[unmask]> wrote:
> Jonathan -- and Eavesdroppers:
> 
> This is a variant/version oif the quasi-ballad I have entitled 
> "Snapoo" in the second edition of _The Erotic Muse._ See the the 
> notes at pp. 382-84, which do not include, but should -- I am 
> ashamed toi say -- the Thompson _Body, Boots and Britches_ cited 
> below,
> It is also related, in one way or another, to "Bollocky Bill, the 
> Sailor," for which see pp. 81-86, op. cit.
> 
> Ed
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jonathan Lighter
> Date: Thursday, December 23, 2004 6:34 pm
> Subject: "Three Pirates"
> 
> > Here's a puzzling little song : "The Three Pirates."
> >
> > The earliest appearance of the song I have found in print
> > is in Howard Thompson's collection of New York State folklore,
> > "Body, Boots, and Britches" (1940), as collected from Nelle [sic]
> > A. Schmidt of Utica, N.Y., app. in the 1930s. Schmidt may have been
> > one of Thompson's students.
> >
> > Here is the text of that version:
> >
> > Three pirates came to London town���Yo-ho, yo-ho!
> > Three pirates came to London town���Yo-ho, yo-ho!
> > Three pirates came to London town
> > To see the King put on his crown.
> > Yo-ho, ye lubbers, yo-ho, ye lubbers; yo-ho, yo-ho, yo-ho!
> >
> > At first they came to a wayside inn,
> > And said, ���Good landlord, let us in!���
> >
> > ���O landlord, have you good red wine
> > Enough to fill this cask of mine?���
> >
> > ���O landlord, have you bags of gold
> > Enough to fill the after-hold?���
> >
> > ���O landlord, have you daughter fair
> > With laughing eyes and curly hair?
> >
> > ���O landlord, will she marry me,
> > And sail with me across the sea?���
> >
> > The "Yo ho, you lubbers" refrain is obviously connected with
> > versions of "Three German Officers" that have "Yo ho, you
> > buggers." I believe that these versions are all sung to the (minor)
> > tune of "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" rather than that of
> > (major)"Hinky Dinky Parley-Voo," another close relative.
> >
> > Schmidt's version is two stanzas shorter than texts published years
> > later in school songbooks. She may well have picked up the song
> > from a so-far untraced schoolbook publication and forgotten the two
> > stanzas. Thompson does not mention ever collecting another text of
> > it. The song is certainly in the romantic style of a music-hall (or
> > children's) song of the later 19th or early 20th century. A search
> > of the Library of Congress (including American Memory)and British
> > Library catalogues reveals no early texts or copyrights. And there
> > is no broadside listed in either the Bodleian or Madden collections.
> >
> > So the real questions remain: Where did "The Three Pirates" come
> > from, and how is it related to "Three German Officers," "Parley-
> > Voo," and any similar items? I've been keeping my eyes open for
> > clues for years, but have found nothing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ��� Try it today!
> >
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
>

On 12/24/04, Malcolm Douglas wrote:[ ... ]>Now that's interesting. Child didn't mention 'Dronning Dagmar', though the parallel really is very
>striking and the song seems to be well enough known in Denmark. There's a text to be seen, with
>melody in midi format, atChild didn't know everything. :-) I just checked the notes to "The
Cherry Tree Carol," and Child doesn't mention the fact that the story
is in Quran. In Surah 19:22 and following (devoted to Mary), the
unmarried girl, who is going into labour, cries out that she wishes
she had died. Jesus tells her that a brook will give her drink and
the palm tree will give her dates, which it does.Later, Mary returns to her tribe and is reviled for having a child
out of wedlock. The infant Jesus speaks to defend her.There are a couple of other references in the Quran to Jesus speaking
from the cradle, though they aren't explicit.Given the late date of the Pseudo-Matthew Gospel, which Child cites
as the source, I think the Quran may be the oldest version of the
legend. I'm still checking that.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

> I have to come up with, say four or five songs from the
> period _that I know._"Good Night and Joy Be With You All" (if you accept the
Skene MS date of 1625).  There are few others in the Skene
MS, no texts of course.  "Flowers of the Forest" is a tricky
one - if the song Skene transcribed was about Flodden at
all, it's too early for Abby's remit, but the text that
relates it to the battle is 18th century."John Anderson my Jo" was re-used for religious purposes by
the Scottish Reformation, so it must have been around before
in some form.For real wind-up-the-Christians value, try the chant of the
witches of North Berwick off my CD-ROM - the words are from
the period; the tune is of unstated provenance from a garbled
MS copied for Lady John Scott, de-garbled by yours truly in
what I think is an uncontroversially obvious way.  It would
be a fabulous audience-participation item, particularly if
you can play the jews harp as John Fian, the leader of the
coven, did.  (There is a longer version of this thing, which
dates only to 1949 and is an obvious fake)."The Laird of Logie" is another bit of the same historical
episode, see my Dalkeith page.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---