John:Beaconsville?  Beatonville?  "B" is also frequently misheard as "P."And now begins  the great guessing game.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:59 am
Subject: Will Bill Jones in Beadsonville> Most versions of Wild Bill Jones fail to give a locale.  The one in
> A. P. Hudson, Folksongs of Mississippi, contains the lines
>
> They carried me down to Beadsonville
> And locked me up in jail.
>
> My favorite geographical WWW site, placesnamed.com, does not return
> any "hits" for "beadsonville" or any of the obvious variations that I
> could think of.  It appears that "Beadsonville" in the song is
> probably a mutation of something.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Correction noted.  Beesonville? Beatonville?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:03 pm
Subject: Will Bill Jones in Beadsonsville> >They carried me down to Beadsonville
> >And locked me up in jail.
>
> Correction: It is "Beadsonsville" in Hudson.
>
> placesnamed.com doesn't recognize that, either.
>
>
> John
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

I've passed this on the the American Name Society list, ANS-L.John Garst wrote:
> Most versions of Wild Bill Jones fail to give a locale.  The one in
> A. P. Hudson, Folksongs of Mississippi, contains the lines
>
> They carried me down to Beadsonville
> And locked me up in jail.
>
> My favorite geographical WWW site, placesnamed.com, does not return
> any "hits" for "beadsonville" or any of the obvious variations that I
> could think of.  It appears that "Beadsonville" in the song is
> probably a mutation of something.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Predictions http://seeingfutures.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

Hi!        Here is our weekly Ebay trick or treat list. :-)        SONGSTERS        3937644008 - American Four Hi Jenny Ho Jenny Johnson Songster, 18??,
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                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Scott Catledge wrote:
> The only name at all close to Beadsonville in MS is Deasonville.
> Scott Catledge
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dan Goodman <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:45 PM
> Subject: [Fwd: Will Bill Jones in Beadsonville]
>
>
>
>>From the Ballad-L list, on the chance someone can help.  Note that the
>>location is more likely to be in Mississippi than in another state, and
>>it probably in the United States.  The original placename might not have
>>borne a very close resemblance to "Beadsonsville".
>>
>>Most versions of Wild Bill Jones fail to give a locale.  The one in
>>A. P. Hudson, Folksongs of Mississippi, contains the lines
>>
>>They carried me down to Beadsonville
>>And locked me up in jail.
>>
>>My favorite geographical WWW site, placesnamed.com, does not return
>>any "hits" for "beadsonville" or any of the obvious variations that I
>>could think of.  It appears that "Beadsonville" in the song is
>>probably a mutation of something.
>>
>>Any ideas?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>John
>>--
>>john garst    [unmask]
>>
>>
>>
>> > They carried me down to Beadsonville
>> > And locked me up in jail.
>>
>>
>>Correction: It is "Beadsonsville" in Hudson.
>>
>>placesnamed.com doesn't recognize that, either.
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dan Goodman
>>Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
>>Predictions http://seeingfutures.blogspot.com
>>All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
>>John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
>>
>
>--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Predictions http://seeingfutures.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]><<In 1928 Newman I. White, in "American Negro Folk-Songs," published a
four-verse fragment of a ballad, "Engineer Rigg," with the following
note:"This old song was made up directly after the Negro excursion
completely packed with Negroes from Greenville, N.C., and bound for
Norfolk, Va., happened with the misfortune as to run into the Western
Branch on account of the bridge keeper did not know of the
excursion's schedule."Informative lines of the song read,"And get ready to dump them niggers in the Western Branch""The drawbridge was open when they rounded the bend""Till all but two cars went down in the stream""They pulled niggers out of there for six long days"This sounds like a massive tragedy.I have found on the WWW a reference to "Elizabeth River - Port
Norfolk, Western Branch."  Perhaps this could be the "Western Branch"
of the ballad and note.Also, there seems to be a Western Branch River.Does anyone have any specifics on this tragedy or tips on getting some?>>I googled "excursion greenville norfolk accident". The first hit got me
this:http://www.lib.ecu.edu/NCCollPCC/er1905.htmThis is, from the look of it, the index for the 1905 editions of the
Greenville, NC Daily Reflector. Among the suggestive entries (along with
some provocative items like "Death of Louis Nobles, 110, good Negro" and
"Child eaten by shark") I found:Train wreck, excursion of Greenville citizens - 18 August, 1905; 19 August,
1905
Bruce - station of railroad between Norfolk and Suffolk - 22 August, 1905
Bridge accident - 28 August, 1905These dates might be worth following up. The index is published by:Joyner Library
East Carolina University
East Fifth Street, Greenville, NC 27858-4353 USA
252.328.6131With luck, they include the paper in their holdings. I hope so; in addition
to the possible origin of the "Engineer Riggs" ballad, there are some
fascinating glances into the life of a small southern city. The Moye family
seem to occupy a remarkable number of headlines. Presumably they were THE
family in town.Peace,
Paul

Illinois has a Bensenville, also sometimes spelled Bensonville. It's
northwest of Chicago.At least, I assume they're the same town, since they both have the same ZIP
code, 60106.Seems like an unlikely origin for Wild Bill Jones, but hell, people in
Illinois act pretty wild too. Just look at Al Capone.Peace,
Paul

Amazing, Paul.  That may be it!  If so, and if I wind up writing
something on this, you'll be a co-author!>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
>
>
><<In 1928 Newman I. White, in "American Negro Folk-Songs," published a
>four-verse fragment of a ballad, "Engineer Rigg," with the following
>note:
>
>"This old song was made up directly after the Negro excursion
>completely packed with Negroes from Greenville, N.C., and bound for
>Norfolk, Va., happened with the misfortune as to run into the Western
>Branch on account of the bridge keeper did not know of the
>excursion's schedule."
>
>Informative lines of the song read,
>
>"And get ready to dump them niggers in the Western Branch"
>
>"The drawbridge was open when they rounded the bend"
>
>"Till all but two cars went down in the stream"
>
>"They pulled niggers out of there for six long days"
>
>This sounds like a massive tragedy.
>
>I have found on the WWW a reference to "Elizabeth River - Port
>Norfolk, Western Branch."  Perhaps this could be the "Western Branch"
>of the ballad and note.
>
>Also, there seems to be a Western Branch River.
>
>Does anyone have any specifics on this tragedy or tips on getting some?>>
>
>I googled "excursion greenville norfolk accident". The first hit got me
>this:
>
>http://www.lib.ecu.edu/NCCollPCC/er1905.htm
>
>This is, from the look of it, the index for the 1905 editions of the
>Greenville, NC Daily Reflector. Among the suggestive entries (along with
>some provocative items like "Death of Louis Nobles, 110, good Negro" and
>"Child eaten by shark") I found:
>
>Train wreck, excursion of Greenville citizens - 18 August, 1905; 19 August,
>1905
>Bruce - station of railroad between Norfolk and Suffolk - 22 August, 1905
>Bridge accident - 28 August, 1905
>
>These dates might be worth following up. The index is published by:
>
>Joyner Library
>East Carolina University
>East Fifth Street, Greenville, NC 27858-4353 USA
>252.328.6131
>
>With luck, they include the paper in their holdings. I hope so; in addition
>to the possible origin of the "Engineer Riggs" ballad, there are some
>fascinating glances into the life of a small southern city. The Moye family
>seem to occupy a remarkable number of headlines. Presumably they were THE
>family in town.
>
>Peace,
>Paul--
john garst    [unmask]

Roger L Payne wrote:
> According to the Geographic Names Information System (GNIS)
> <http://geonames.usgs.gov>, the nation's official geographic names
> repository, there is a small, rural, crossroads community in Pike County,
> Mississippi named Beardens (also with variant names Bearden and Beardon).
> Further, the rural community named Rounsaville in Greene County,
> Mississippi was formerly named Beards.
>
> By the way, <placesnamed.com> is an extremely valuable resource, but wonder
> if it is more based upon postal districts because in Virginia, Reston Area
> 1, Reston Area 2, and Reston Area 3 are not valid place names, but there
> are three subpostal districts in Reston?
>
> Roger L. Payne
>
>
> |---------+------------------------------->
> |         |           Dan Goodman         |
> |         |           <[unmask]>|
> |         |           Sent by: American   |
> |         |           Name Society        |
> |         |           <[unmask]
> |         |           HAMTON.EDU>         |
> |         |                               |
> |         |                               |
> |         |           10/27/2004 07:45 PM |
> |         |           Please respond to   |
> |         |           dsgood              |
> |         |                               |
> |---------+------------------------------->
>   >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>   |                                                                                                                              |
>   |       To:       [unmask]                                                                                |
>   |       cc:                                                                                                                    |
>   |       Subject:  [Fwd: Will Bill Jones in Beadsonville]                                                                       |
>   >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
>
>
>  From the Ballad-L list, on the chance someone can help.  Note that the
> location is more likely to be in Mississippi than in another state, and
> it probably in the United States.  The original placename might not have
> borne a very close resemblance to "Beadsonsville".
>
> Most versions of Wild Bill Jones fail to give a locale.  The one in
> A. P. Hudson, Folksongs of Mississippi, contains the lines
>
> They carried me down to Beadsonville
> And locked me up in jail.
>
> My favorite geographical WWW site, placesnamed.com, does not return
> any "hits" for "beadsonville" or any of the obvious variations that I
> could think of.  It appears that "Beadsonville" in the song is
> probably a mutation of something.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>
>
>
>  > They carried me down to Beadsonville
>  > And locked me up in jail.
>
>
> Correction: It is "Beadsonsville" in Hudson.
>
> placesnamed.com doesn't recognize that, either.
>
>
>
> --
> Dan Goodman
> Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
> Predictions http://seeingfutures.blogspot.com
> All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
> John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.
>
> ----- Message from John Garst <[unmask]> on Wed, 27 Oct 2004
> 14:59:37 -0400 -----
>
>       To: [unmask]
>
>  Subject: Will Bill Jones in Beadsonville
>
>
> Most versions of Wild Bill Jones fail to give a locale.  The one in
> A. P. Hudson, Folksongs of Mississippi, contains the lines
>
> They carried me down to Beadsonville
> And locked me up in jail.
>
> My favorite geographical WWW site, placesnamed.com, does not return
> any "hits" for "beadsonville" or any of the obvious variations that I
> could think of.  It appears that "Beadsonville" in the song is
> probably a mutation of something.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> John
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Predictions http://seeingfutures.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.

Amazing, Paul.  That may be it!  If so, and if I wind up writing
something on this, you'll be a co-author!>I googled "excursion greenville norfolk accident". The first hit got me
>this:
>
>http://www.lib.ecu.edu/NCCollPCC/er1905.htm
>
>This is, from the look of it, the index for the 1905 editions of the
>Greenville, NC Daily Reflector. Among the suggestive entries (along with
>some provocative items like "Death of Louis Nobles, 110, good Negro" and
>"Child eaten by shark") I found:
>
>Train wreck, excursion of Greenville citizens - 18 August, 1905; 19 August,
>1905
>Bruce - station of railroad between Norfolk and Suffolk - 22 August, 1905
>Bridge accident - 28 August, 1905
>
>These dates might be worth following up. The index is published by:
>
>Joyner Library
>East Carolina University
>East Fifth Street, Greenville, NC 27858-4353 USA
>252.328.6131
>
>With luck, they include the paper in their holdings. I hope so; in addition
>to the possible origin of the "Engineer Riggs" ballad, there are some
>fascinating glances into the life of a small southern city. The Moye family
>seem to occupy a remarkable number of headlines. Presumably they were THE
>family in town.
>
>Peace,
>PaulAt
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:pvZYnPPckYoJ:www.juch.net/download/TULLFAMILY6.rtf+%22excursion+train+wreck%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8I found*****
v Nora Forbes married (1) Ed Jolley who died August 17, 1905 (Killed
in excursion train wreck with his brother Walter. His brother Heber
was only survivor).
*****Many of this Tull family lived in Greenville.  The date fits tht
turned up by Paul.  Unfortunately, this family appears to be white.John

>Roger L Payne wrote:
>>According to the Geographic Names Information System (GNIS)
>><http://geonames.usgs.gov>, the nation's official geographic names
>>repository, there is a small, rural, crossroads community in Pike County,
>>Mississippi named Beardens (also with variant names Bearden and Beardon).
>>Further, the rural community named Rounsaville in Greene County,
>>Mississippi was formerly named Beards.
>>
>>By the way, <placesnamed.com> is an extremely valuable resource, but wonder
>>if it is more based upon postal districts because in Virginia, Reston Area
>>1, Reston Area 2, and Reston Area 3 are not valid place names, but there
>>are three subpostal districts in Reston?My impression is that placesnamed.com is based on a number of
different kinds of records.  There will be a separate entry for each
record.--
john garst    [unmask]

OK, Frankie fans, straighten this out for me if you can.In "The Rose and the Briar," novelist Cecil Brown contributes a
chapter on Frankie.  He includes a reproduction from the St. Louis
Post-Dispatch of February 13, 1942, with nice photographs of Frankie
Baker as a teenager and "nearing 66."That's just FYI.  My question follows.In a footnote on the first page of his chapter, Brown writes of Allen Britt
*****
Britt's given name was Albert, but he was also known as "Allen."
*****
Brown does not give a specific reference for this information, of
which I am highly skeptical.The evidence I've seen cited makes Britt's given name "Allen."  In
some of her testimony, but not all, Frankie Baker called him
"Albert," but that was well after the ballad "Frankie and Albert" had
begun circulating.  I suspect that Frankie called him "Albert" simply
because that was the name used in the ballad.  If an early version of
the song named "Al Britt," then "Albert" would be an inevitable
mutation - I think this very likely.  "Johnny" came in, of course,
with the Leighton Brothers and Ren Shields rewrite of 1912.What do you think of Brown's claim that Britt's given name was
"Albert" and that "Allen" was a nickname?John

On 10/29/04, John Garst wrote:>OK, Frankie fans, straighten this out for me if you can.
>
>In "The Rose and the Briar," novelist Cecil Brown contributes a
>chapter on Frankie.  He includes a reproduction from the St. Louis
>Post-Dispatch of February 13, 1942, with nice photographs of Frankie
>Baker as a teenager and "nearing 66."
>
>That's just FYI.  My question follows.
>
>In a footnote on the first page of his chapter, Brown writes of Allen Britt
>*****
>Britt's given name was Albert, but he was also known as "Allen."
>*****
>Brown does not give a specific reference for this information, of
>which I am highly skeptical.
>
>The evidence I've seen cited makes Britt's given name "Allen."  In
>some of her testimony, but not all, Frankie Baker called him
>"Albert," but that was well after the ballad "Frankie and Albert" had
>begun circulating.  I suspect that Frankie called him "Albert" simply
>because that was the name used in the ballad.  If an early version of
>the song named "Al Britt," then "Albert" would be an inevitable
>mutation - I think this very likely.  "Johnny" came in, of course,
>with the Leighton Brothers and Ren Shields rewrite of 1912.
>
>What do you think of Brown's claim that Britt's given name was
>"Albert" and that "Allen" was a nickname?I think you are right and Brown wrong: Al Britt became Albert. This
is quite normal phonological behavior. The other change makes no
sense.Besides, what sort of insane parents would name their kid
Albert Britt? :-)That's not proof, but it's clearly the more logical result.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Appropriately enough, I have been listening to
"Hallowe'en", written by Volet Jacob and sung by
Karine Polwart and Sheena Wellington, Jean Redpath
and, I suppose, others. A beautiful song, worth
listening to. Anyway,The song is apparently about a lost love connected
with early 20th-century Halloween rituals in Scotland.
I suspect, though, that there is a subtext about (what
else) Prince Charlie. One verse, for example:
Awa' in France across the wave
The wee lichts burn on ilka grave
An' you an' me their lowes hae seen
Ye'll maybe hae yer Halowe'en
Yont whaur you're lyin' way the lave.CA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Abrams" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 31 October 2004 04:09
Subject: Halloween> Appropriately enough, I have been listening to
> "Hallowe'en", written by Volet Jacob and sung by
> Karine Polwart and Sheena Wellington, Jean Redpath
> and, I suppose, others. A beautiful song, worth
> listening to. Anyway,
>
> The song is apparently about a lost love connected
> with early 20th-century Halloween rituals in Scotland.
> I suspect, though, that there is a subtext about (what
> else) Prince Charlie. One verse, for example:
> Awa' in France across the wave
> The wee lichts burn on ilka grave
> An' you an' me their lowes hae seen
> Ye'll maybe hae yer Halowe'en
> Yont whaur you're lyin' way the lave.
>
> CA
>Nothing whatever to do with Charles Edward Stewart. The final verses of the poem (a fine one, I
agree; I haven't heard it set to music) refer to those who died, in France, in a rather more recent
war.Malcolm Douglas

Friends:
Can anyone provide dates for the following artists:
Stanley Baby
Green Bailey (death)
Dillard Chandler (death)
Carrie Grover
Maggie Hammons Parker (death)
Burl Hammons (death)
Sherman Hammons (death)
Obray Ramsey
Grant Rogers (death)
Thanks for the help,
Norm Cohen

Folks:In the little-known third part of C. K. Sharpe's _A Ballad Book,_ the following song appears (without melody) on pages 178-180 in the William Blackwood edition of 1880 published in Edinburgh:The Young Lassie and Auld Man.Said to be written by Miss Jean Allardyce of Pittenweem to her friend, Miss Katherine Gordon of Wardass, 1714.0 Kitty, dear Kitty, I'll tell you what grieves me,
   And for to advise me do all that you can,
If ye could relieve me a present I'll give you—
   What can a young lassie do wi' an auld man ? 
I canna get sleeping for sighing and weeping,
   What shall I do, Kitty ? Oh, here, take my fan :
My mind is sae crazy, I'm dull and uneasy,
   I am sae perplex’d wi' a crazy auld man.My mither she teazes me morning and evening,
   My aunty she vexes me a' the day lang 
To marry the carle because o' his siller—
   But what can a lassie do wi' an auld man ?
His heart it is cauld, within dull an' hollow,
   The hale o' his carcase is a' skin .in' bane,
For him an' his money I carena a penny— '
   What can a young lassie do wi' an auld man ?My  titty, the gypsy, wha wudna miscall her?
   On me takes nae pity, but joins wi' the clan,
And says I may never get sic a gude offer—
   But what can a lassie do wi' an auld man ?
Sweethearts I've got mony, but she hasna ony,
   Sae well's I can dive in the heart o' her plan,
Because she's negleckit, my peace she has wreckit,
   And plagues me to marry a doited auld man.
They keep me at hame frae the dance and the market,
   Because I am some years younger than Anne, 
The tawpie ; than Dawty,—an' they, for to please her,
   Would sell a young lassie unto an auld man.The rose in its splendor shall blaw in December,
    The corbie an’ craw turn white as the swan,
The owl it shall sing like the linnet in spring,
     Before that I marry a crazy auld man.Assuming the date is to be trusted, this defiant song would apparently be the inspiration for Burn's  sardonic "What Can a Young Lassie Do wi' an Auld Man?"  (A copy is in the _Scots Musical Museum, of 1787,_ No. 316.)  The catch -- isn't there always one -- is this: Dick's _Notes on Scottish Songs by Robert Burns,  No. 197,  notes there is a blackletter broadside entitled "The Young Woman's Complaint, or a caveat to all maids to have a care how they be married to old men."  It 's presumably OLDER tune is "What Should a Young Woman Do with an Old Man," or "The Tyrant."   Claude Simpson has located a broadside in which the tune "What Should a Young Woman Do with an Old Man" is also titled "Digby's Farewell."  Trouble is that I cannot see much of a relationship between Burns'  melody in the _Museum_ (and in Ritson's _Scottish Ballads, II) and the "Digby" tunes in Simoson.Thus, utter confusion.  Possibly, Ms. Allardyce heard or read the earlier broadside, but did not know the "Digby" tune.  Otherwise, we have a song and tune traveling in parallel through time, but not linked until Burns fashioned his song.Thoughts anyone?Ed

Norm Cohen wrote:> Sorry if I missed any discussion on this, but are these collections
> reprints from other standard collections?  Or are they "primary"
> sources? Norm Cohen>        3751206541 - The Popular Songs of Scotland by Graham, 3
> volumes in 1, 1851, 19.99 GBP (ends Oct-03-04 12:55:48 PDT)Unsure about the date. I have the original "Popular Songs of Scotland"
by Wood which was published in three volumes with few
historical/background notes. I also have the 1893 Graham edition which
has copious historical/background notes and is one of my favourite
information sources on songs and tunes; Graham seems to have known his
onions. If it's that book I'd buy it whatever the condition of the
cover (and assuming it's reasonably priced) simply for the quality of
Graham's criticism.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
mailto:[unmask]

Hello everyone,I was watching the movie "Parenthood" and was surprised by a little ditty
sung by one of the children: "The Diarrhea Song".  With a little Google
searching, I confirmed that this song is a traditional children's song (see
text below).  Here is one version sung to me over the phone:        http://immortalia.com/diarhea-song.mp3   (55KB)I am trying to track down the earliest instance of this song.   If you know
the "Diarrhea Song", when did you learn your verses?   If possible, would
you mind singing them for me and any other children's rhymes that you can
remember?   You can reach me at [unmask]Any help will be appreciated.Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~When you're slidin' into first
and you feel somethin' burst
Diarrhea, DiarrheaWhen you're slidin' into two
And your pants are filled with goo
Diarrhea, DiarrheaWhen you're slindin' into 3rd
And you feel a big turd
Diarrhea, DiarrheaWhen you're slidin' into home
And your pants are filled with foam
Diarrhea, Diarrhea

Thanks, Nigel.  I was unaware that Graham was a revision of Wood's set.
Norm Cohen
>
> >        3751206541 - The Popular Songs of Scotland by Graham, 3
> > volumes in 1, 1851, 19.99 GBP (ends Oct-03-04 12:55:48 PDT)
>
> Unsure about the date. I have the original "Popular Songs of Scotland"
> by Wood which was published in three volumes with few
> historical/background notes. I also have the 1893 Graham edition which
> has copious historical/background notes and is one of my favourite
> information sources on songs and tunes; Graham seems to have known his
> onions. If it's that book I'd buy it whatever the condition of the
> cover (and assuming it's reasonably priced) simply for the quality of
> Graham's criticism.
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> mailto:[unmask]
>

I justify this for the blues list because spirituals and blues are
closely related and for the ballad list because "Go Down, Moses" is a
ballad telling of the Israelites escape from Egypt.  The fasola list
is interested in allied material.Not infrequently my wife accuses me of having an inordinately
suspicious mind, unwilling to accept what is obvious to others.  I
guess I'm guilty.  Here's an example.Was "Go Down" written by some white Yankee abolitionist?As presented by the Reverend Lewis C. Lockwood, who claimed to have
heard it sung by blacks at Fortress Monroe, Chesapeake Bay Harbor, in
early September, 1861, and published in December, 1861, as
transmitted by Harwood Vernon, in the New York Tribune (republished
shortly thereafter in The National Anti-Slavery Standard), it is
highly literary, grammatically and structurally, hardly the kind
thing that was commonly sung by groups of slaves.In a sheet music edition, also published in December, 1861, also with
words supplied by the Rev. Lockwood, the ballad is similarly literary
but the text is almost entirely different from that published in the
Tribune.The absence of "Go Down" from Slave Songs of the United States
suggests either that it wasn't sung in the areas represented by that
collection or that the editors rejected it as spurious.  Slave Songs
does contain 19 songs from Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, and New
York, so even if "Go Down" were known only in the Chesapeake Bay
area, it would be surprising if it didn't reach the attention of
Allen, Ware, and Garrison, especially since it was well known, and no
doubt known to them, by the time they were editing their book.  My
guess is that they considered it to be spurious.The "Go Down" tune is found with another text in The Revivalist
(1868, Troy, NY) but this is well after "Go Down" was popularized, so
its earlier publications could have been the source.I haven't searched, but I don't recall the "Go Down" text from
camp-meeting songsters.  How 'bout it, anyone?John
--
john garst    [unmask]

John:Dena J. Epstein in her _Sinful Tunes and Spirituals_ (pp. 242-246) notes that the cover letter from Harwood Vernon of the National Anti-Slavery Association to the NY _Tribune_ of December 2, 1861, notes that the Rev. L.C. Lockwood took the first three (?) stanzas down "verbatim" from the "dictation"  of Carl Hollosay [sic] "and other contrabands."  Vernon continues: "It is said to have been sung for at least fifteen or twenty years in Virginia and Maryland."Epstein continues with the observation that "Lockwood made no attempt to preserve the dialect, nor did her have a modern editor's respect for the integrity of the text for he supplied a substantially different version for the sheet music edition."  (p. 246)For various texts, see her Appendix III (pp. 346 ff.) By 1875 and my copy of the Fisk Jubilee Singers the 20-stanza Lockwood original had grown to 25 stanzas.  Many hands stirred that pot.EdEd----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, October 2, 2004 7:50 am
Subject: Go Down, Moses> I justify this for the blues list because spirituals and blues are
> closely related and for the ballad list because "Go Down, Moses" is a
> ballad telling of the Israelites escape from Egypt.  The fasola list
> is interested in allied material.
>
> Not infrequently my wife accuses me of having an inordinately
> suspicious mind, unwilling to accept what is obvious to others.  I
> guess I'm guilty.  Here's an example.
>
> Was "Go Down" written by some white Yankee abolitionist?
>
> As presented by the Reverend Lewis C. Lockwood, who claimed to have
> heard it sung by blacks at Fortress Monroe, Chesapeake Bay Harbor, in
> early September, 1861, and published in December, 1861, as
> transmitted by Harwood Vernon, in the New York Tribune (republished
> shortly thereafter in The National Anti-Slavery Standard), it is
> highly literary, grammatically and structurally, hardly the kind
> thing that was commonly sung by groups of slaves.
>
> In a sheet music edition, also published in December, 1861, also with
> words supplied by the Rev. Lockwood, the ballad is similarly literary
> but the text is almost entirely different from that published in the
> Tribune.
>
> The absence of "Go Down" from Slave Songs of the United States
> suggests either that it wasn't sung in the areas represented by that
> collection or that the editors rejected it as spurious.  Slave Songs
> does contain 19 songs from Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, and New
> York, so even if "Go Down" were known only in the Chesapeake Bay
> area, it would be surprising if it didn't reach the attention of
> Allen, Ware, and Garrison, especially since it was well known, and no
> doubt known to them, by the time they were editing their book.  My
> guess is that they considered it to be spurious.
>
> The "Go Down" tune is found with another text in The Revivalist
> (1868, Troy, NY) but this is well after "Go Down" was popularized, so
> its earlier publications could have been the source.
>
> I haven't searched, but I don't recall the "Go Down" text from
> camp-meeting songsters.  How 'bout it, anyone?
>
> John
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

>John:
>
>Dena J. Epstein in her _Sinful Tunes and Spirituals_ (pp. 242-246)
>notes that the cover letter from Harwood Vernon of the National
>Anti-Slavery Association to the NY _Tribune_ of December 2, 1861,
>notes that the Rev. L.C. Lockwood took the first three (?) stanzas
>down "verbatim" from the "dictation"  of Carl Hollosay [sic] "and
>other contrabands."  Vernon continues: "It is said to have been sung
>for at least fifteen or twenty years in Virginia and Maryland."
>
>Epstein continues with the observation that "Lockwood made no
>attempt to preserve the dialect, nor did her have a modern editor's
>respect for the integrity of the text for he supplied a
>substantially different version for the sheet music edition."  (p.
>246)
>
>For various texts, see her Appendix III (pp. 346 ff.) By 1875 and my
>copy of the Fisk Jubilee Singers the 20-stanza Lockwood original had
>grown to 25 stanzas.  Many hands stirred that pot.Yes, but I'm interested in the possibility that Lockwood lied for
propaganda purposes.  It seems likely to me.John

Well, that's somewhat like the notion that the hymn "Kum ba Yah" is an
African American spiritual from the eighteenth or nineteenth century.An article in "The Hymn" of a few years ago identified and documented that
the actual composer of both the words and the music was a Midwestern white
man who published it in the 1930s.  As I recall, he simply wrote it as a
hymn of his own without claiming it as a traditional song.-Berkley Moore
  Springfield, ILP.S. by JG:Unless this midwesterner wrote "Come By Here," I'm highly skeptical.>  ...
>  Was "Go Down" written by some white Yankee abolitionist?
>  ...
>  John Garst
--
john garst    [unmask]

Ed wrote:>Dena J. Epstein in her _Sinful Tunes and Spirituals_ (pp. 242-246)
>notes that the cover letter from Harwood Vernon of the National
>Anti-Slavery Association to the NY _Tribune_ of December 2, 1861,
>notes that the Rev. L.C. Lockwood took the first three (?) stanzas
>down "verbatim" from the "dictation"  of Carl Hollosay [sic] "and
>other contrabands."Ed, the way I read it is that Vernon submitted, and had published, 20
verses, all of which were said to have been "taken down verbatim from
the dictation of Carl Hollosay, and other contrabands."John
--
john garst    [unmask]

I've been working at learning the ballad of The Island Unknown,
recorded by Texas fiddler Eck Robertson in 1927, with 15 verses.  Does
anyone know the provenance of it?  It is not in Florence Brundage.Also a few words are unclear...last verse:Farewell to America, I bid you adieu
Likewise to the flag, the red white and blue
Farewell to my friends and loved ones at home
Farewell is my prayer  from the island unknown--
 Truman Price
Columbia Basin Books
7210 Helmick Road
Monmouth, OR 97361email [unmask]
phone 503-838-5452
abe URL: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abep/il.dll?vci=3381
also 10,000 childrens books at http://www.oldchildrensbooks.com
truman's music page: http://www.oldchildrensbooks.com/musicAbe Heritage Seller

I have no particular opinion on this but I do note two isolated bits of
information. First, "Black Song..." by John Lovell (MacMillan 1972)
states at p. 196: "Russell Ames and others have recorded how Harriett
Tubman used "Go Down Moses" to call up her candidates for transportation
to free land." This would point to usage prior to 1860, I assume. But
the source notes for Lovell's chapter list Ames' book as being the "The
Story of American Folk Song" published by Grosset and Dunlap in 1960.  I
haven't seen the Ames book but the title and the publisher don't seem to
indicate a scholarly study.Second, Slave Songs by Allen etc (1867) contains a spiritual at p. 76,
"Let God's Saints Come in."  Two verses are: "God Did say to Moses one
day, Moses go to Egypt land, And tell him to let my people go, and
Pharoah would not let em go."  The other verses are, however, quite
different from Lockwood's.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 10/2/2004 10:50:40 AM >>>
I justify this for the blues list because spirituals and blues are
closely related and for the ballad list because "Go Down, Moses" is a
ballad telling of the Israelites escape from Egypt.  The fasola list
is interested in allied material.Not infrequently my wife accuses me of having an inordinately
suspicious mind, unwilling to accept what is obvious to others.  I
guess I'm guilty.  Here's an example.Was "Go Down" written by some white Yankee abolitionist?As presented by the Reverend Lewis C. Lockwood, who claimed to have
heard it sung by blacks at Fortress Monroe, Chesapeake Bay Harbor, in
early September, 1861, and published in December, 1861, as
transmitted by Harwood Vernon, in the New York Tribune (republished
shortly thereafter in The National Anti-Slavery Standard), it is
highly literary, grammatically and structurally, hardly the kind
thing that was commonly sung by groups of slaves.In a sheet music edition, also published in December, 1861, also with
words supplied by the Rev. Lockwood, the ballad is similarly literary
but the text is almost entirely different from that published in the
Tribune.The absence of "Go Down" from Slave Songs of the United States
suggests either that it wasn't sung in the areas represented by that
collection or that the editors rejected it as spurious.  Slave Songs
does contain 19 songs from Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, and New
York, so even if "Go Down" were known only in the Chesapeake Bay
area, it would be surprising if it didn't reach the attention of
Allen, Ware, and Garrison, especially since it was well known, and no
doubt known to them, by the time they were editing their book.  My
guess is that they considered it to be spurious.The "Go Down" tune is found with another text in The Revivalist
(1868, Troy, NY) but this is well after "Go Down" was popularized, so
its earlier publications could have been the source.I haven't searched, but I don't recall the "Go Down" text from
camp-meeting songsters.  How 'bout it, anyone?John
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis Becker" <[unmask]><<Second, Slave Songs by Allen etc (1867) contains a spiritual at p. 76,
"Let God's Saints Come in."  Two verses are: "God Did say to Moses one
day, Moses go to Egypt land, And tell him to let my people go, and
Pharoah would not let em go."  The other verses are, however, quite
different from Lockwood's.>>Well, that's the hazard of trying to analyze songs that (loosely) quote the
Bible; two quite independent songs can have essentially identical lyrics,
just because they're based on the same bit of scripture.Peace,
Paul

Lewis and Friends:I cannot find the reference in Ames' very romantic interpretation of slave/protest spirituals and songs.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, October 2, 2004 3:09 pm
Subject: Re: Go Down, Moses> I have no particular opinion on this but I do note two isolated bits of
> information. First, "Black Song..." by John Lovell (MacMillan 1972)
> states at p. 196: "Russell Ames and others have recorded how Harriett
> Tubman used "Go Down Moses" to call up her candidates for transportation
> to free land." This would point to usage prior to 1860, I assume. But
> the source notes for Lovell's chapter list Ames' book as being the "The
> Story of American Folk Song" published by Grosset and Dunlap in 1960.  I
> haven't seen the Ames book but the title and the publisher don't seem to
> indicate a scholarly study.
>
> Second, Slave Songs by Allen etc (1867) contains a spiritual at p. 76,
> "Let God's Saints Come in."  Two verses are: "God Did say to Moses one
> day, Moses go to Egypt land, And tell him to let my people go, and
> Pharoah would not let em go."  The other verses are, however, quite
> different from Lockwood's.
>
> Lew Becker
>
> >>> [unmask] 10/2/2004 10:50:40 AM >>>
> I justify this for the blues list because spirituals and blues are
> closely related and for the ballad list because "Go Down, Moses" is a
> ballad telling of the Israelites escape from Egypt.  The fasola list
> is interested in allied material.
>
> Not infrequently my wife accuses me of having an inordinately
> suspicious mind, unwilling to accept what is obvious to others.  I
> guess I'm guilty.  Here's an example.
>
> Was "Go Down" written by some white Yankee abolitionist?
>
> As presented by the Reverend Lewis C. Lockwood, who claimed to have
> heard it sung by blacks at Fortress Monroe, Chesapeake Bay Harbor, in
> early September, 1861, and published in December, 1861, as
> transmitted by Harwood Vernon, in the New York Tribune (republished
> shortly thereafter in The National Anti-Slavery Standard), it is
> highly literary, grammatically and structurally, hardly the kind
> thing that was commonly sung by groups of slaves.
>
> In a sheet music edition, also published in December, 1861, also with
> words supplied by the Rev. Lockwood, the ballad is similarly literary
> but the text is almost entirely different from that published in the
> Tribune.
>
> The absence of "Go Down" from Slave Songs of the United States
> suggests either that it wasn't sung in the areas represented by that
> collection or that the editors rejected it as spurious.  Slave Songs
> does contain 19 songs from Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, and New
> York, so even if "Go Down" were known only in the Chesapeake Bay
> area, it would be surprising if it didn't reach the attention of
> Allen, Ware, and Garrison, especially since it was well known, and no
> doubt known to them, by the time they were editing their book.  My
> guess is that they considered it to be spurious.
>
> The "Go Down" tune is found with another text in The Revivalist
> (1868, Troy, NY) but this is well after "Go Down" was popularized, so
> its earlier publications could have been the source.
>
> I haven't searched, but I don't recall the "Go Down" text from
> camp-meeting songsters.  How 'bout it, anyone?
>
> John
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Hello, folks.  I forwarded some of the interchange re "Go Down Moses," to Dr. James Mumford, who is an African-American ethnomusicologist and director of Indiana University's African-American Choral Ensemble.  Here is his response.        Marge -----Original Message-----
From: Mumford, James E. 
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:02 PM
To: Steiner, Margaret
Subject: RE: more on "Go Down Muses"FW: Go Down, MosesThis argument is so similar to so many written by musicologist who have little or no real scholarship of African Music and of African abilities in the written word.  All Africans were not "dumb Savages" who were incapable of writing sophisticated lyrics and stories.    While Griots and Wise Chieftans in many African Societies were responsible for passing down history and stories through an aural tradition, In other places, there were well developed and highly sophisticated writings, storytelling, and songs.  The Universities of the Songhai Nation had huge libraries of books and histories and narratives of very sophisticated writing abilities.  So why would someone assume that there would be Enslaved Africans who were encapable of writing grammatically and sophisticated literary  things.  Go Down Moses is nothing more than the retelling of the story of Moses who asked Pharoah to "let my people go"  What is so sophisticated about that the would ,make someone think that  and individual or group of individuals could not create it.  Nearly all the spirituals are not only fine examples of story telling but a sophistication of a Language not their own that used Metaphors and subtleties that fooled completely their  intelligent white masters for years.  I have seen Go Down Moses in many collections by African American Collectors such as the Johnson Brothers, and have never even heard of this feeble attempt to discredit it as being so sophisticated as to have been impossible for Enslaved Africans to have written it.  The Musical melodic modes, highly complex rhythmic patterns and voicings and arrangements stand beside the best musical offerings of other culutures.  Because white collectors who  were unschooled in these complexities were not able to understand or value the unfamiliar is not enough for them to declare them unsophisticated and somewhat savage.  The call response nature of Go Down Moses, and the modal quality of the melody is a clear connection to the music traditions of Africa.  Because they are not included in any collectors in known collections seems to me more the inadequacies and disinterest of the collectors than the non existence of connections.   I'll have to look at it further, but I'M  inclined to ignore the questions and the spurious accusations.    Most of the early collectors say similar things about all the music of the Enslaved Africans, but it was Anton Dvorak who stated that American composers were derelict in not sampling the only true American music... that of the American Negro.  He found the material as rich as that of the Russian folk music found in Tschaikovsky, and the German folk music in Wagner and others.-----Original Message-----
From: Steiner, Margaret 
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 9:26 PM
To: Mumford, James E.
Subject: more on "Go Down Muses"FW: Go Down, Moses-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Lewis Becker
Sent: Saturday, October 02, 2004 5:10 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Go Down, MosesI have no particular opinion on this but I do note two isolated bits of
information. First, "Black Song..." by John Lovell (MacMillan 1972)
states at p. 196: "Russell Ames and others have recorded how Harriett
Tubman used "Go Down Moses" to call up her candidates for transportation
to free land." This would point to usage prior to 1860, I assume. But
the source notes for Lovell's chapter list Ames' book as being the "The
Story of American Folk Song" published by Grosset and Dunlap in 1960.  I
haven't seen the Ames book but the title and the publisher don't seem to
indicate a scholarly study.Second, Slave Songs by Allen etc (1867) contains a spiritual at p. 76,
"Let God's Saints Come in."  Two verses are: "God Did say to Moses one
day, Moses go to Egypt land, And tell him to let my people go, and
Pharoah would not let em go."  The other verses are, however, quite
different from Lockwood's.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 10/2/2004 10:50:40 AM >>>
I justify this for the blues list because spirituals and blues are
closely related and for the ballad list because "Go Down, Moses" is a
ballad telling of the Israelites escape from Egypt.  The fasola list
is interested in allied material.Not infrequently my wife accuses me of having an inordinately
suspicious mind, unwilling to accept what is obvious to others.  I
guess I'm guilty.  Here's an example.Was "Go Down" written by some white Yankee abolitionist?As presented by the Reverend Lewis C. Lockwood, who claimed to have
heard it sung by blacks at Fortress Monroe, Chesapeake Bay Harbor, in
early September, 1861, and published in December, 1861, as
transmitted by Harwood Vernon, in the New York Tribune (republished
shortly thereafter in The National Anti-Slavery Standard), it is
highly literary, grammatically and structurally, hardly the kind
thing that was commonly sung by groups of slaves.In a sheet music edition, also published in December, 1861, also with
words supplied by the Rev. Lockwood, the ballad is similarly literary
but the text is almost entirely different from that published in the
Tribune.The absence of "Go Down" from Slave Songs of the United States
suggests either that it wasn't sung in the areas represented by that
collection or that the editors rejected it as spurious.  Slave Songs
does contain 19 songs from Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, and New
York, so even if "Go Down" were known only in the Chesapeake Bay
area, it would be surprising if it didn't reach the attention of
Allen, Ware, and Garrison, especially since it was well known, and no
doubt known to them, by the time they were editing their book.  My
guess is that they considered it to be spurious.The "Go Down" tune is found with another text in The Revivalist
(1868, Troy, NY) but this is well after "Go Down" was popularized, so
its earlier publications could have been the source.I haven't searched, but I don't recall the "Go Down" text from
camp-meeting songsters.  How 'bout it, anyone?John
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 10/4/04, Steiner, Margaret wrote:>Hello, folks.  I forwarded some of the interchange re "Go Down Moses," to Dr. James Mumford, who is an African-American ethnomusicologist and director of Indiana University's African-American Choral Ensemble.  Here is his response.
>
>        Marge
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mumford, James E.
>Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:02 PM
>To: Steiner, Margaret
>Subject: RE: more on "Go Down Muses"FW: Go Down, Moses
>
>This argument is so similar to so many written by musicologist who have little or no real scholarship of African Music and of African abilities in the written word.  All Africans were not "dumb Savages" who were incapable of writing sophisticated lyrics and stories.    While Griots and Wise Chieftans in many African Societies were responsible for passing down history and stories through an aural tradition, In other places, there were well developed and highly sophisticated writings, storytelling, and songs.  The Universities of the Songhai Nation had huge libraries of books and histories and narratives of very sophisticated writing abilities.  So why would someone assume that there would be Enslaved Africans who were encapable of writing grammatically and sophisticated literary  things.  Go Down Moses is nothing more than the retelling of the story of Moses who asked Pharoah to "let my people go"  What is so sophisticated about that the would ,make someone think that  and individual or group of individuals could not create it.  Nearly all the spirituals are not only fine examples of story telling but a sophistication of a Language not their own that used Metaphors and subtleties that fooled completely their  intelligent white masters for years.  I have seen Go Down Moses in many collections by African American Collectors such as the Johnson Brothers, and have never even heard of this feeble attempt to discredit it as being so sophisticated as to have been impossible for Enslaved Africans to have written it.  The Musical melodic modes, highly complex rhythmic patterns and voicings and arrangements stand beside the best musical offerings of other culutures.  Because white collectors who  were unschooled in these complexities were not able to understand or value the unfamiliar is not enough for them to declare them unsophisticated and somewhat savage.  The call response nature of Go Down Moses, and the modal quality of the melody is a clear connection to the music traditions of Africa.  Because they are not included in any collectors in known collections seems to me more the inadequacies and disinterest of the collectors than the non existence of connections.   I'll have to look at it further, but I'M  inclined to ignore the questions and the spurious accusations.    Most of the early collectors say similar things about all the music of the Enslaved Africans, but it was Anton Dvorak who stated that American composers were derelict in not sampling the only true American music... that of the American Negro.  He found the material as rich as that of the Russian folk music found in Tschaikovsky, and the German folk music in Wagner and others.I must say, this sounds like something the George Bush campaign would
write: In the absence of data, scatter false accusations.None of the above constitutes evidence. I think we would all agree that,
in terms of compositional capabilities, the pre-War slaves *could have*
written such a piece. So what? The northern abolitionist *could have*
written it too. What we need is as many verified collections as possible,
to help us try to determine the ultimate source. Or, perhaps, to confess
that we can't.I have nothing to add to this debate, except a hope that people will
resolve it so we can get some useful notes in the Ballad Index. But I
really don't think the above adds to the discussion.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Yes, Dr. Mumford's response does sound a bit defensive.  My guess, though, is that it will be difficult to track the ultimate source of "Go Down, Moses."  Pre-war slaves certainly could have been capable of writing pieces that were literary in tone.  The issue is: can we ascertain, or not, to what degree the song may have been, or may be, in oral tradition?        Marge -----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Robert B. Waltz
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 8:42 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: from Dr., James MumfordFW: more on "Go Down Muses"FW: Go
Down, MosesOn 10/4/04, Steiner, Margaret wrote:>Hello, folks.  I forwarded some of the interchange re "Go Down Moses," to Dr. James Mumford, who is an African-American ethnomusicologist and director of Indiana University's African-American Choral Ensemble.  Here is his response.
>
>        Marge
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mumford, James E.
>Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 11:02 PM
>To: Steiner, Margaret
>Subject: RE: more on "Go Down Muses"FW: Go Down, Moses
>
>This argument is so similar to so many written by musicologist who have little or no real scholarship of African Music and of African abilities in the written word.  All Africans were not "dumb Savages" who were incapable of writing sophisticated lyrics and stories.    While Griots and Wise Chieftans in many African Societies were responsible for passing down history and stories through an aural tradition, In other places, there were well developed and highly sophisticated writings, storytelling, and songs.  The Universities of the Songhai Nation had huge libraries of books and histories and narratives of very sophisticated writing abilities.  So why would someone assume that there would be Enslaved Africans who were encapable of writing grammatically and sophisticated literary  things.  Go Down Moses is nothing more than the retelling of the story of Moses who asked Pharoah to "let my people go"  What is so sophisticated about that the would ,make someone think that  and individual or group of individuals could not create it.  Nearly all the spirituals are not only fine examples of story telling but a sophistication of a Language not their own that used Metaphors and subtleties that fooled completely their  intelligent white masters for years.  I have seen Go Down Moses in many collections by African American Collectors such as the Johnson Brothers, and have never even heard of this feeble attempt to discredit it as being so sophisticated as to have been impossible for Enslaved Africans to have written it.  The Musical melodic modes, highly complex rhythmic patterns and voicings and arrangements stand beside the best musical offerings of other culutures.  Because white collectors who  were unschooled in these complexities were not able to understand or value the unfamiliar is not enough for them to declare them unsophisticated and somewhat savage.  The call response nature of Go Down Moses, and the modal quality of the melody is a clear connection to the music traditions of Africa.  Because they are not included in any collectors in known collections seems to me more the inadequacies and disinterest of the collectors than the non existence of connections.   I'll have to look at it further, but I'M  inclined to ignore the questions and the spurious accusations.    Most of the early collectors say similar things about all the music of the Enslaved Africans, but it was Anton Dvorak who stated that American composers were derelict in not sampling the only true American music... that of the American Negro.  He found the material as rich as that of the Russian folk music found in Tschaikovsky, and the German folk music in Wagner and others.I must say, this sounds like something the George Bush campaign would
write: In the absence of data, scatter false accusations.None of the above constitutes evidence. I think we would all agree that,
in terms of compositional capabilities, the pre-War slaves *could have*
written such a piece. So what? The northern abolitionist *could have*
written it too. What we need is as many verified collections as possible,
to help us try to determine the ultimate source. Or, perhaps, to confess
that we can't.I have nothing to add to this debate, except a hope that people will
resolve it so we can get some useful notes in the Ballad Index. But I
really don't think the above adds to the discussion.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On 10/4/04, Steiner, Margaret wrote:>Yes, Dr. Mumford's response does sound a bit defensive.  My guess, though, is that it will be difficult to track the ultimate source of "Go Down, Moses."  Pre-war slaves certainly could have been capable of writing pieces that were literary in tone.  The issue is: can we ascertain, or not, to what degree the song may have been, or may be, in oral tradition?Agreed. I wasn't trying to accuse anyone. Just pointing out that we
are still where we were before. I certainly would not write off the
possibility of oral composition.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Ames's book is so small it took me a few days to find it on my shelves.  It
was a favorite reference of mine decades ago--mainly because it was the only
general survey of American folk music available.  It isn't scholarly in the
sense that it is primary research, nor is it documented to the extent most
of us would prefer, but it is generally reliable and informative.  He
doesn't quote "Go Down Moses" directly, but says of Tubman:
"...In sharp contrast to Douglasss--who was a writer, thinker, and
organizer--yet a slave made of the same heroic stuff, was Harriet Tubman,
who never learned to read or write. But she was so intelligent and farseeing
that she led over 300 slaves to the North and to Canada without losing a
single one by death or capture.  The Negroes called her Moses--she often
spoke of the South as Egypt-- and John Brown called her General Tubman.  Her
example must have given thousands the courage to escape (p. 156).
A few pages later he discussed "Foller de Drinkin' Gou'd"; his source is the
PTFS publication I believe has already been discussed in these exchanges.
Then:
"Harried Tubman used singing a great deal in her work as Moses.  To remind
her "passengers" that it was important to throw bloodhounds off the scent
and to help them keep up their courage, she sang 'Wade in the Water'.....
(p 160)
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2004 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: Go Down, Moses> Lewis and Friends:
>
> I cannot find the reference in Ames' very romantic interpretation of
slave/protest spirituals and songs.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
> Date: Saturday, October 2, 2004 3:09 pm
> Subject: Re: Go Down, Moses
>
> > I have no particular opinion on this but I do note two isolated bits of
> > information. First, "Black Song..." by John Lovell (MacMillan 1972)
> > states at p. 196: "Russell Ames and others have recorded how Harriett
> > Tubman used "Go Down Moses" to call up her candidates for transportation
> > to free land." This would point to usage prior to 1860, I assume. But
> > the source notes for Lovell's chapter list Ames' book as being the "The
> > Story of American Folk Song" published by Grosset and Dunlap in 1960.  I
> > haven't seen the Ames book but the title and the publisher don't seem to
> > indicate a scholarly study.
> >
> > Second, Slave Songs by Allen etc (1867) contains a spiritual at p. 76,
> > "Let God's Saints Come in."  Two verses are: "God Did say to Moses one
> > day, Moses go to Egypt land, And tell him to let my people go, and
> > Pharoah would not let em go."  The other verses are, however, quite
> > different from Lockwood's.
> >
> > Lew Becker
> >
> > >>> [unmask] 10/2/2004 10:50:40 AM >>>
> > I justify this for the blues list because spirituals and blues are
> > closely related and for the ballad list because "Go Down, Moses" is a
> > ballad telling of the Israelites escape from Egypt.  The fasola list
> > is interested in allied material.
> >
> > Not infrequently my wife accuses me of having an inordinately
> > suspicious mind, unwilling to accept what is obvious to others.  I
> > guess I'm guilty.  Here's an example.
> >
> > Was "Go Down" written by some white Yankee abolitionist?
> >
> > As presented by the Reverend Lewis C. Lockwood, who claimed to have
> > heard it sung by blacks at Fortress Monroe, Chesapeake Bay Harbor, in
> > early September, 1861, and published in December, 1861, as
> > transmitted by Harwood Vernon, in the New York Tribune (republished
> > shortly thereafter in The National Anti-Slavery Standard), it is
> > highly literary, grammatically and structurally, hardly the kind
> > thing that was commonly sung by groups of slaves.
> >
> > In a sheet music edition, also published in December, 1861, also with
> > words supplied by the Rev. Lockwood, the ballad is similarly literary
> > but the text is almost entirely different from that published in the
> > Tribune.
> >
> > The absence of "Go Down" from Slave Songs of the United States
> > suggests either that it wasn't sung in the areas represented by that
> > collection or that the editors rejected it as spurious.  Slave Songs
> > does contain 19 songs from Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, and New
> > York, so even if "Go Down" were known only in the Chesapeake Bay
> > area, it would be surprising if it didn't reach the attention of
> > Allen, Ware, and Garrison, especially since it was well known, and no
> > doubt known to them, by the time they were editing their book.  My
> > guess is that they considered it to be spurious.
> >
> > The "Go Down" tune is found with another text in The Revivalist
> > (1868, Troy, NY) but this is well after "Go Down" was popularized, so
> > its earlier publications could have been the source.
> >
> > I haven't searched, but I don't recall the "Go Down" text from
> > camp-meeting songsters.  How 'bout it, anyone?
> >
> > John
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
> >
>

Hi!        While Mt. St. Helens puffs away, I keep finding books on Ebay.
:-) Here is the latest list.        SONGSTERS        3933592658 - Hamlin & Hamlin Cabin Floor Songster, $3.50 (ends
Oct-05-04 12:45:40 PDT)        6929158688 - Joe Wilson's Tyneside Songs, Ballads and Drolleries,
1864?, 25 GBP (ends Oct-09-04 15:00:00 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        4040167015 - Scots Tinker Lady/Robertson, LP. $9.98 (ends
Oct-05-04 17:19:19 PDT)        4040171085 - Scottish Ballads and Folk Songs by Robertson, LP, $12
(ends Oct-05-04 17:53:23 PDT)        2492538830 - Folk Music Journal, 1999, 0.49 GBP (ends Oct-12-04
11:47:57 PDT)        2492539123 - Folk Music Journal, 1997, 0.49 GBP (ends Oct-12-04
11:49:33 PDT)        2492539306 - Folk Music Journal. 1998, 0.49 GBP (ends Oct-12-04
11:50:34 PDT)        SONGBOOKS        6929861805 - 7 Irish songbooks, $25 (ends Oct-05-04 08:56:00 PDT)        3751621648 - Penguin Book of ENGLISH FOLK SONGS by Williams &
Lloyd, 1961 edition, 5.50 GBP (ends Oct-05-04 11:14:14 PDT)        6929942605 - Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America by Jackson,
1975, $10.51 (ends Oct-05-04 16:15:07 PDT)        4040825341 - The Bon Accord Collection of Bothy Ballads by Wright,
1961, $2.35 (ends Oct-05-04 16:37:46 PDT)        3752221779 - Blue Grass Roy Collection of Cowboy and Mountain
Ballads, 193?, $6 (ends Oct-06-04 08:53:17 PDT)        6930052030 - Tales and Songs of Southern Illinois by Neely, 1998
edition, $12.50 (ends Oct-06-04 09:29:20 PDT)        6930060289 - TRAVELLER'S SONGS FROM ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND by
MacColl & Seeger, 1977, $39.95 (ends Oct-06-04 10:19:09 PDT)        6929814704 - More Traditional Ballads of Virginia by Davie, 1960,
$9.99 (ends Oct-06-04 12:15:00 PDT)        3751353244 - Folk Songs by Sharp, 1930, 2 GBP (ends Oct-07-04
05:14:01 PDT)        6930471898 - Oxford Book of Ballads, 1927, 5 GBP (ends Oct-08-04
15:27:16 PDT)        2491976180 - Colonial Ballads by Anderson, 1962, $14.99 AU (ends
Oct-08-04 19:04:18 PDT)        2492598717 - Great Australian Folk Songs by Edwards, 1991, $5 AU
(ends Oct-09-04 19:59:35 PDT)        2492195284 - Sounds of the South by Patterson, 1991, 4.49 GBP
(ends Oct-10-04 08:25:42 PDT)        6930734989 - OLD BALLADS, HISTORICAL AND NARRATIVE by Evans,
1784, $9.95 (ends Oct-10-04 11:51:34 PDT)        6930766202 - Ballads and Ballast by Reilly, 1997, $6 (ends
Oct-10-04 14:44:32 PDT)        3752733734 - Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri Folk-Lore
Society by Dean, 1940, $6.95 (ends Oct-10-04 17:23:53 PDT)        6930761780 - Robin Hood, Poems, Songs and Ballads by Ritson,
1884 edition, $9.99 (ends Oct-10-04 18:30:00 PDT)        6930825118 - 2 songbooks (The Irish Brigade & Irish Songs of Love
and WAr by McGee), $2.99 (ends Oct-10-04 21:32:20 PDT)        2492793921 - The Erotic Muse by Cray, 1992 edition, $6.99 (ends
Oct-10-04 21:47:34 PDT)        7925826559 - Yarns & Ballads of the Australian Bush by Edwards,
1981, $10 AU (ends Oct-12-04 03:20:36 PDT)        4041806020 - SONGS OF THE HEBRIDES by Kennedy-Fraser, 3 vol. in 1,
40 GBP (ends Oct-13-04 11:39:17 PDT)        6930755301 - MINSTRELSY, ANCIENT & MODERN by Motherwell, volume 2,
1846, $29.50 (ends Oct-13-04 13:32:03 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi,
The Susie F. Dean Book appears to be exactly the same title as Belden.
Can someone confirm this for me, please? Are they the same volume and if
so why the 2 different editors?
SteveG

Steve:
Looks to me like this is Belden's book in a new binding, with the owner's
name, Susie Dean, stamped on the cover.
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 2004 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 10/04/04> Hi,
> The Susie F. Dean Book appears to be exactly the same title as Belden.
> Can someone confirm this for me, please? Are they the same volume and if
> so why the 2 different editors?
> SteveG
>

My guess is that it is the Belden and that someone named Susie Dean had
her copy rebound and put her name on it. The Library of Congress
catalogue doesn't show any Susie Dean as an author, although Susan Dean
wrote "Touchuing for Pleasure. A guide to sensual enhancement."Lew becker>>> [unmask] 10/6/2004 2:30:30 PM >>>
Hi,
The Susie F. Dean Book appears to be exactly the same title as Belden.
Can someone confirm this for me, please? Are they the same volume and
if
so why the 2 different editors?
SteveG

>> The call response nature of Go Down Moses, and the modal
>> quality of the melody is a clear connection to the music
>> traditions of Africa.
> None of the above constitutes evidence.That bit in particular - GDM is in the dorian/minor hexatonic
mode with the seventh sharpened where it occurs as a leading note.
Which you could equally well find in a Gaelic song, along with
the call-response pattern (which is much like a rowing or waulking
song).  There are distinctively African modes and forms unknown
in European folksong, but GDM isn't an example of either.Or just compare it with a Scottish psalm tune of 1600-ish:X:1
T:Go Down Moses
S:Marsh & Loudin, The Story of the Jubilee Singers (1892 ed)
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=100
K:A minor % Transposed from F minor
E|cc  BB |ccA2||
  EE ^GG |A3  ||
E|cc  BB |ccA2||
  EE ^GG |A4  |]
  A    A3    |d    d3   ||
  e2      e>d|e    e d<c||
  c/A/ A3    |c/A/ A2 G ||
  E    E ^GG |A4        |]X:2
T:Dundee
S:Church Hymnary revised ed (1929) solfa version
M:2/2
L:1/2
Q:1/2=100
K:A minor
A2|A B|c B|A A|^G2||
c2|e d|c d|c2||
c2|e d|c B|A A|^G2||
c2|B A|A^G|A2|]The rhythms are different; stylistically not much else is.  And
that psalm tune went over on the Mayflower.  I'd guess that GDM
*is* an Afro-American creation, but one based melodically as
much on Protestant psalmody as on anything from Africa.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis Becker" <[unmask]><<My guess is that it is the Belden and that someone named Susie Dean had
her copy rebound and put her name on it. The Library of Congress
catalogue doesn't show any Susie Dean as an author, although Susan Dean
wrote "Touchuing for Pleasure. A guide to sensual enhancement.">>Perhaps singing added to the enjoyment. It would for me.Peace,
Paul

Jack:Your comments lend themselve to the theory that "our African-American" music is more strongly influenced by Scottish influences than by African.. Then the  African/Americans both Slave and Freemen took it to their own place seems highly plausible to me. Then again, I know little of the African music that actually came over..  Very little of it exists to my knowledge.Sammy Rich
>
> From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
> Date: 2004/10/06 Wed PM 03:11:45 EDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: from Dr., James Mumford
>
> >> The call response nature of Go Down Moses, and the modal
> >> quality of the melody is a clear connection to the music
> >> traditions of Africa.
> > None of the above constitutes evidence.
>
> That bit in particular - GDM is in the dorian/minor hexatonic
> mode with the seventh sharpened where it occurs as a leading note.
> Which you could equally well find in a Gaelic song, along with
> the call-response pattern (which is much like a rowing or waulking
> song).  There are distinctively African modes and forms unknown
> in European folksong, but GDM isn't an example of either.
>
> Or just compare it with a Scottish psalm tune of 1600-ish:
>
> X:1
> T:Go Down Moses
> S:Marsh & Loudin, The Story of the Jubilee Singers (1892 ed)
> M:4/4
> L:1/4
> Q:1/4=100
> K:A minor % Transposed from F minor
> E|cc  BB |ccA2||
>   EE ^GG |A3  ||
> E|cc  BB |ccA2||
>   EE ^GG |A4  |]
>   A    A3    |d    d3   ||
>   e2      e>d|e    e d<c||
>   c/A/ A3    |c/A/ A2 G ||
>   E    E ^GG |A4        |]
>
> X:2
> T:Dundee
> S:Church Hymnary revised ed (1929) solfa version
> M:2/2
> L:1/2
> Q:1/2=100
> K:A minor
> A2|A B|c B|A A|^G2||
> c2|e d|c d|c2||
> c2|e d|c B|A A|^G2||
> c2|B A|A^G|A2|]
>
> The rhythms are different; stylistically not much else is.  And
> that psalm tune went over on the Mayflower.  I'd guess that GDM
> *is* an Afro-American creation, but one based melodically as
> much on Protestant psalmody as on anything from Africa.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
> ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---
>

>>Then again, I know little of the African music that actually came
over..  Very little of it exists to my knowledge.>>Sammy RichThis would not seem to bear out in the vocal traditions of the Georgia
Sea Isles, which seem to me to be stylistically very similar to the
vocal traditions of West Africa, and Ghana in particular. About "Go Down Moses" and it's lyrical perfection: in John Work's 1940
_American Negro Songs_, the author asserts,"If a group is favorably
impressed with the song as a whole, gradually, and without conscious
effort, it replaces these unnatural intervals and misfit words with more
suitable ones.Thus, in the course of time this song as it spreads over
the country becomes unconsciously perfected and standardized. Examples
of this process are "Swing Low Sweet Chariot", "Steal Away to Jesus",
"Lord, I Want to be a Chirstian", and "Go Down Moses"."How accurate is the Work text? Do any of you have an opinion about his
scholarshiop and accuracy?Beth Brooks

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Where can you go to hear the authentic songs of Guy Fawkes Day and Bonfire
Night?
-yes indeed!
Stop in at the Guy Fawkes Celebrations of the Center for Fawkesian Pursuits
Linthicum, Outside of Baltimore Maryland.
I Shall have the trumpet out for rough music and for Guy Fawkes Prince of
Sinisters as well as on the CD all of the known recorded songs mentioning
Guy Fawkes and the Gunpowder Plot-
Event the Beatles! Even Hendrix!-
Date: Saturday November 6
Time: Keg tapped at 4
      Chants begin at 5:30, music, games, real torches!
      Turkey is dug out from the Earth oven(cooked on hot rocks so we can
have a legal fire thereafter.!
Fireworks!
What is Guy Fawkes Day all about?
http://www.bcpl.net/~cbladey/guy/html/mainz.html
Huge christmas pudding set alight.
All of the traditional foods- Parkin, Bonfire toffee.....We are at:
402 Nancy Ave.
Linthicum, Md.
21090
USACall for directions- 410-789-0930We are right off of 95 and the Baltimore washington parkway-only 10 minutes
no more.Also near Batltimore Washington Intenational Air Port-
so you can fly in!
We will pick you up in an art car!All are welcome especially children. Lots of food beer, sodas, veggi
food....torches for everyoneNot in the area? Contact someone who is! The more the merrier. I want to
fill the yard and house with celebrants.Remember remember the 5th of november but do it on the 6th!Conrad Bladey--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

David:Simpson and Roud's Dictionary of English Folklore (Oxford) credit both hawthorne (aka "may") and holly with the power to ward off witches and other evils.I can look further if you need more help.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: David Kleiman <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, October 7, 2004 8:52 am
Subject: Hawthorne & Holly> Do the folklorists out there have any thoughts on the significance of the
> Hawthorn and Holly
>
> in the following verse from "Johnnie O'Breadisleys" (Bronson Ballad 114 -
> version 9).
>
> Both are often "sacred" plants, but what else?  Why collect his dead body
> with these woods?
>
>
>
> Some o them pulled o the hawthorn's bush,
>
> And some o the hollin tree,
>
> An mony, mony were the men,
>
> At the fetchin o' young Johnnie.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> David M. Kleiman
>
> President & CEO
>
> Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.
>
>
>
>
>
>

Folks:In fact, there are other "survivals" of African influence on the music and lore of blacks in the New World in the many works of Elsie Clews Parsons (Caribbean generally), Walter Jekyl (Bahamas), Alan Lomax (Haiti, etc.) and, more recently, Roger Abrahams.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, October 7, 2004 6:43 am
Subject: Re: from Dr., James Mumford> >>Then again, I know little of the African music that actually came
> over..  Very little of it exists to my knowledge.>>
>
> Sammy Rich
>
>
> This would not seem to bear out in the vocal traditions of the Georgia
> Sea Isles, which seem to me to be stylistically very similar to the
> vocal traditions of West Africa, and Ghana in particular.
>
> About "Go Down Moses" and it's lyrical perfection: in John Work's 1940
> _American Negro Songs_, the author asserts,"If a group is favorably
> impressed with the song as a whole, gradually, and without conscious
> effort, it replaces these unnatural intervals and misfit words with more
> suitable ones.Thus, in the course of time this song as it spreads over
> the country becomes unconsciously perfected and standardized. Examples
> of this process are "Swing Low Sweet Chariot", "Steal Away to Jesus",
> "Lord, I Want to be a Chirstian", and "Go Down Moses"."
>
> How accurate is the Work text? Do any of you have an opinion about his
> scholarshiop and accuracy?
>
> Beth Brooks
>

Or could it simply be that finding him in that extensive forest was a
rather prickly task?
SteveG

Thanks to all for a prompt response.
I'll keep a lookout for her other book on Ebay!
SteveG

Ouch, sharp wit!David M. Kleiman
President & CEO
Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On
Behalf Of Steve Gardham
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2004 2:39 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Hawthorne & HollyOr could it simply be that finding him in that extensive forest was a
rather prickly task?
SteveG

That is all true, but there is simply one very unique fact about each of these mentioned, in that they never made it to the mainland.  They stayed off shore and uniquely to themselves compared to the route that the African Americans came in to the rural south and even the north. The main thrust and influence in the states had to have been significantly different from those that managed to find a place to live or work on the isles.SRich>
> From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> Date: 2004/10/07 Thu PM 12:33:28 EDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: from Dr., James Mumford
>
> Folks:
>
> In fact, there are other "survivals" of African influence on the music and lore of blacks in the New World in the many works of Elsie Clews Parsons (Caribbean generally), Walter Jekyl (Bahamas), Alan Lomax (Haiti, etc.) and, more recently, Roger Abrahams.
>
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
> Date: Thursday, October 7, 2004 6:43 am
> Subject: Re: from Dr., James Mumford
>
> > >>Then again, I know little of the African music that actually came
> > over..  Very little of it exists to my knowledge.>>
> >
> > Sammy Rich
> >
> >
> > This would not seem to bear out in the vocal traditions of the Georgia
> > Sea Isles, which seem to me to be stylistically very similar to the
> > vocal traditions of West Africa, and Ghana in particular.
> >
> > About "Go Down Moses" and it's lyrical perfection: in John Work's 1940
> > _American Negro Songs_, the author asserts,"If a group is favorably
> > impressed with the song as a whole, gradually, and without conscious
> > effort, it replaces these unnatural intervals and misfit words with more
> > suitable ones.Thus, in the course of time this song as it spreads over
> > the country becomes unconsciously perfected and standardized. Examples
> > of this process are "Swing Low Sweet Chariot", "Steal Away to Jesus",
> > "Lord, I Want to be a Chirstian", and "Go Down Moses"."
> >
> > How accurate is the Work text? Do any of you have an opinion about his
> > scholarshiop and accuracy?
> >
> > Beth Brooks
> >
>

Does anyone have an email address for Bill?
Thanks,
Norm

Could have something to do with the holly (sometimes
mistletoe) dart that killed the otherwise-invulnerable
Balder-- a similar figure, loved by everyone. .
.except those who didn't.The dead man is fetched (and his coffin made?) from
"...a board of elder and a board of holly" in "The
Brown and the Yellow Ale".CA> Do the folklorists out there have any thoughts on
the significance of the Hawthorn and Holly in the
following verse from "Johnnie O'Breadisleys" (Bronson
Ballad 114 - version 9).
>
> Both are often "sacred" plants, but what else?  Why
collect his dead body with these woods?

>> Then again, I know little of the African music that actually came
>> over..  Very little of it exists to my knowledge.
> This would not seem to bear out in the vocal traditions of the
> Georgia Sea Isles, which seem to me to be stylistically very similar
> to the vocal traditions of West Africa, and Ghana in particular.That's where Gullah is spoken?  It wouldn't be surprising if a
group that spoke by far the most divergent English dialect in
North America should also preserve/evolve musical traditions
not found elsewhere.> About "Go Down Moses" and it's lyrical perfection: in John Work's 1940
> _American Negro Songs_, the author asserts,"If a group is favorably
> impressed with the song as a whole, gradually, and without conscious
> effort, it replaces these unnatural intervals and misfit words with more
> suitable ones.Thus, in the course of time this song as it spreads over
> the country becomes unconsciously perfected and standardized. Examples
> of this process are "Swing Low Sweet Chariot", "Steal Away to Jesus",
> "Lord, I Want to be a Chirstian", and "Go Down Moses"."And the whole of black America had identical standards of perfection
that meant everybody individually and unconsciously evolved the same
version?  Phooey.The version of "Go Down, Moses" I reproduced from an 1892 book -
presumably as sung by the Jubilee Singers in the 1870s - has a
couple of notes in the chorus that are different from the way
everybody sings it now, and the rhythm differs in a few details.
Where did the currently standard version originate? - not folk
tradition, obviously.  Sankey & Moody, maybe?: Your comments lend themselve to the theory that "our African-
: American" music is more strongly influenced by Scottish influences
: than by African.. Then the  African/Americans both Slave and
: Freemen took it to their own place seems highly plausible to me.The Jubilee Singers book I quoted the tune from has an interesting
account of their tours of Britain in the early 1870s.  The editor
notes that the pentatonic scales common in their songs were also
common in Scottish music - but without mentioning any specific
shared tunes and without implying anything about shared origins.There was probably some influence the other way: the Jubilee
Singers did at least three tours of Scotland, singing in almost
every major town and city to audiences of thousands, so every
musician in Scotland would have become familiar with their
approach; and this was probably the first exposure most Scottish
listeners would have had to folk- (or folk-like) songs in full-
scale choral arrangements.  Sankey and Moody followed in 1875.
The Gaelic choral singing movement (the kind of stuff still
performed at the Mod every year) started in the 1880s, and in
historical context it looks like it was an attempt to do for
Gaelic music what George White at Fisk University had already
done for gospel.  (Whether it was that wonderful an idea for
either is another question...)-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

Dear Karen,My life got complicated just as I sent out this email, and I haven't gotten
back to dealing with it yet.  If you still want the Williams/Thames book in
xerox for $10.00, I will be glad to send it to you.  Send me a check to the
address below.  Be sure to include your own address so I know who to send
it to.Thanks much, and sorry to have taken so long.--Bill McCarthyAt 09:45 PM 8/6/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Bill, I replied to the 1st thread you posted.  I, too, would like copies
>of the Last Leaves and Upper Thames books.
>
>thanks,
>
>karen kobela
>
><mailto:[unmask]>[unmask]
>
> >>
> >I have three books in Xerox form that I no longer need.  I will ship them,
> >post-paid, to the first people who claim them:
> >
> >Alfred Williams: Folk Songs of the Upper Thames, $10.
> >
> >Geo. P. Jackson:  Spiritual Folksongs of Early America,  $10.
> >
> >Gavin Greig and Alexander Keith:  Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads and
> >Ballad Airs, $12
> >
> >Please note that these are Xerox copies.  Two, at least, are in public
> >domain.
> >
> >Bill McCarthy

Bill,Is the Gavin Grieg book still available?Thanks.David M. Kleiman

Dear List,My face is red.  Special apologies for sending a private note to the whole
list.-- Bill

David,I think someone has already claimed that.  Sorry, and sorry to have delayed
so long in getting back to you.-- BillAt 10:01 AM 10/8/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Bill,
>
>Is the Gavin Grieg book still available?
>
>Thanks.
>
>David M. Kleiman

Thanks anyway.David M. Kleiman
President & CEO
Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On
Behalf Of Bill McCarthy
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 10:38 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Classic folk-song volumesDavid,I think someone has already claimed that.  Sorry, and sorry to have delayed
so long in getting back to you.-- BillAt 10:01 AM 10/8/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Bill,
>
>Is the Gavin Grieg book still available?
>
>Thanks.
>
>David M. Kleiman

> Sir:
>
> Your description says this book, _Ballads and Songs Collected by the
> Missouri Folk-Lore Society_ was "written by Susie Dean."  Can you please
> check the author.  Is it, in fact, H.M. Belden?
>
> Ed
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------From     [unmask]
Sent    Friday, October 8, 2004 10:24 am
To      Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Subject         Re: Ballads and SongsHi,Thanks for your question. I am out of town and cannot check the book. However i do remember Belden's name. I used Ms. Dean's name because it is on the front cover. This book seems to have been a publication that contains the works and efforts of many people.Hope you are interested in bidding on it.Thanks,Brian Reynolds> Sir:
>
> Your description says this book, _Ballads and Songs Collected by the
> Missouri Folk-Lore Society_ was "written by Susie Dean."  Can you please
> check the author.  Is it, in fact, H.M. Belden?
>
> Ed
>
>

It is interesting where "Go Down, Moses" is *not* found.  I mentioned
previously that it is not inAllen, Ware, and Garrison, Slave Songs (1867).It is also not inOdum and Johnson, The Negro and His Songs (1925)
White, American Negro Folk-Songs (1928)
Grisson, The Negro Sings a New Heaven (1930)I wonder if it is anywhere other than sources that copied the
original publications stemming from the Rev. Lewis C. Lockwood.John

>It is interesting where "Go Down, Moses" is *not* found.  I
>mentioned previously that it is not in
>
>Allen, Ware, and Garrison, Slave Songs (1867).
>
>It is also not in
>
>Odum and Johnson, The Negro and His Songs (1925)
>White, American Negro Folk-Songs (1928)
>Grisson, The Negro Sings a New Heaven (1930)
>
>I wonder if it is anywhere other than sources that copied the
>original publications stemming from the Rev. Lewis C. Lockwood."Go Down, Moses" is not indexed in Bruce Jackson, The Negro and His
Folklore in Nineteenth-Century Periodicals.  This includes the last
of three articles published by William E. Barton in 1898-99 in New
England Magazine.  Unfortunately, it does not include the first two.John

 From The Sacred Lyre, John Elliott, Pastor of St. John's Church,
Lancaster.  Lancaster: Printed by Mary Dickson, 1828.  I'm not sure
what *country* this is.Hymn 136, p 122When Israel out of Egypt came,
And left the proud oppressor's land,
Supported by the great I AM,
Safe in the hollow of his hand!
The Lord in Israel reigned alone,
And Judah was his favourite throne.Goes on to describe the parting of the sea and other manifestations
of nature.  Five verses.No author given.Looks kind of Wattish to me.Does anyone know anything about this hymn?John

>From The Sacred Lyre, John Elliott, Pastor of St. John's Church,
>Lancaster.  Lancaster: Printed by Mary Dickson, 1828.  I'm not sure
>what *country* this is.
>
>Hymn 136, p 122
>
>When Israel out of Egypt came,
>And left the proud oppressor's land,
>Supported by the great I AM,
>Safe in the hollow of his hand!
>The Lord in Israel reigned alone,
>And Judah was his favourite throne.
>
>Goes on to describe the parting of the sea and other manifestations
>of nature.  Five verses.
>
>No author given.
>
>Looks kind of Wattish to me.
>
>Does anyone know anything about this hymn?It is Psalm 114 in verse.  Versified version go back to Sternhold and
Hopkins (1562), but the version above is not theirs.Hymn 136 above may be by Charles Wesley.John

>Dear ballad-l,
>
>Here is the 483 page PDF of the _Choyce Drollery_ edited by Ebsworth.
>The PDF is very large at 26MB because the page images are at 600dpi.
>
>
>       http://tinyurl.com/5tm57 (26MB)This doesn't seem to be there.  I'm not narrowband anyway so the
download would be an ordeal.  There's one image I'm specifically
interested in: in a microfilm copy I've seen, beside one of the
songs about gelding the Devil there is a picture of a bagpiper
playing an unusual type of pipe (known only from one museum
specimen and one other picture).  Could you send me just that
picture, at 600dpi?cheers - jack-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

Jack
I don't know if I'm talking about the same edition (I can't make the link below work), but the copy of Ebsworth's Choyce Drollery that I've got (which actually includes Antidote.., Westminster Drollery, and Merry Drollery) has no illustrations at all, and certainly no unusual bagpepers!
Steve Roud--
Message sent with Supanet E-mail-----Original Message-----
From:     Jack Campin <[unmask]>
To:       [unmask]
Subject:  Re: _Choyce Drollery_ PDF available for download.> >Dear ballad-l,
> >
> >Here is the 483 page PDF of the _Choyce Drollery_ edited by Ebsworth.
> >The PDF is very large at 26MB because the page images are at 600dpi.
> >
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/5tm57 (26MB)
>
> This doesn't seem to be there. I'm not narrowband anyway so the
> download would be an ordeal. There's one image I'm specifically
> interested in: in a microfilm copy I've seen, beside one of the
> songs about gelding the Devil there is a picture of a bagpiper
> playing an unusual type of pipe (known only from one museum
> specimen and one other picture). Could you send me just that
> picture, at 600dpi?
>
> cheers - jack
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack> * food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
> ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

Dear JackThe _Choyce Drollery_ which I make available here
( http://tinyurl.com/54egy ) is the Ebsworth 1876
reissue.   You will have to go back to the
microfilm & print it out.Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~
My, mostly traditional, bawdy songs, toasts and
recitations website: www.immortalia.comEBSWORTH, J. Woodfall. [Editor] Choyce Drollery:
Songs & Sonnets. Being a collection of divers
excellent pieces of poetry of several eminent
authors. Now first reprinted from the edition of
1656. with, Merry Drollery compleat... Now First
Reprinted from the Final Edition, 1691. with,
Westminster Drolleries, Both Parts of 1671,
1672... Now First Reprinted... Robert Roberts,
Boston, Lincolnshire, 1876----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Campin" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 5:06 AM
Subject: Re: _Choyce Drollery_ PDF available for
download.>Dear ballad-l,
>
>Here is the 483 page PDF of the _Choyce Drollery_
>edited by Ebsworth.
>The PDF is very large at 26MB because the page
>images are at 600dpi.
>
>
>       http://tinyurl.com/5tm57 (26MB)This doesn't seem to be there.  I'm not narrowband
anyway so the
download would be an ordeal.  There's one image
I'm specifically
interested in: in a microfilm copy I've seen,
beside one of the
songs about gelding the Devil there is a picture
of a bagpiper
playing an unusual type of pipe (known only from
one museum
specimen and one other picture).  Could you send
me just that
picture, at 600dpi?cheers - jack-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange,
Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food
intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files,
and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l"
at this site, please. <---

I have the 1876 Choyce Drollery in front of me and there is no ballad
about gelding the Devil in it. However the only illustration it contains
is opposite the title page and this has a 17th c piper playing at a party,
but it looks like the illustration is by Ebsworth himself.
The gelding of the devil ballad sounds familiar so I'll check it out when
I can.
SteveG

Gelding of the Devil is in Pills 3 (1719edn) p147, a longer version at
Douce 3 (37a) (Bodleian) but no piper illustration; however at Douce 1
(42a) is a good clear picture of a man wrestling an octopus which might
suffice. It accompanies the ballad 'Cumberland Laddy'. The same cut in
truncated form can be found illustrating 'The Downfall of Dancing' Pepys
Vol 4 p188. Another similar cut is found a few pages earlier p182
accompanying the ballad 'Dicks Loyalty to his True Love Nancy.
SteveG

Graham's anthology is listed in Child V. 523, 1887 edition however. My copy
has no date, but has an ink inscription dated 1878.  I don't suppose there
was much of a differ between editions.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi!        Here is another list for examination, discussion, debate, and
bidding. ;-)        SONGSTERS        3753480102 - VOCAL MIRTH & THE BRITISH SONGSTER, (songster/broadside),
1820, 9.99 GBP (ends Oct-14-04 05:46:02 PDT)        2493330943 - THE SCHOOL ROOM SONGSTER, 1893, $3 (ends Oct-14-04
08:26:32 PDT)        6123829687 - MERCHANTS GARGLING OIL SONGSTER w/2 bottles (empty),
1880's, $9.99 (ends Oct-16-04 15:26:35 PDT)        6931064173 - Gem Songster, 1892, $0.99 (ends Oct-19-04 18:12:00 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        4042353490 - The Kirkland Recordings, LP, 1984, $5 (ends Oct-12-04
12:49:09 PDT)        3753632625 - broadside, HOW TO CLOSE THIS CRUEL WAR, 186?, $9.95
(ends Oct-14-04 18:15:22 PDT)        4042976788 - THE ENGLISH & SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS VOL. 3 (THE
CHILD BALLADS), MacColl & Lloyd, LP, $5.99 (ends Oct-15-04 08:47:48 PDT)        SONGBOOKS        3752967243 - Irish Country Songs by Hughes, volume 1, 1909, $14.95
(ends Oct-11-04 17:34:23 PDT)        6930959584 - Eighty English Folk Songs from the Southern
Appalachians by Sharp & Karpeles, 1969 edition, $24.99 (ends Oct-11-04
18:36:51 PDT)        6931026003 - SONGS OF THE GAEL First Series by Breathnach, 1922,
$15 (ends Oct-12-04 08:57:47 PDT)        6931026013 - Irish SONGS OF THE GAEL Second Series by Breathnach,
1920, $15 (ends Oct-12-04 08:57:55 PDT)        6931026029 - SONGS OF THE GAEL Fourth Series by Breathnach, 1922,
$15 (ends Oct-12-04 08:58:01 PDT)        6931026037 - SONGS OF THE GAEL Third Series by Breathnach, 1922,
$15 (ends Oct-12-04 08:58:08 PDT)        6931026067 - IRISH MINSTRELSY by Sparling, 1888 edition, $24 (ends
Oct-12-04 08:58:26 PDT)        6931100329 - Old Time Songs and Poetry of Newfoundland by Doyle,
1978 edition, $5.99 (ends Oct-12-04 15:57:34 PDT)        6931028951 - The Book of Popular Songs, 1864, $5 (ends Oct-12-04
17:00:00 PDT)        3753662173 - PINT POT and BILLY by Fahey, 1977, $5.50 AU (ends
Oct-12-04 20:35:06 PDT)        6931352526 - Norwegian Emigrant Songs and Ballads by Blegen &
Ruud, 1979 reprint, $9.99 (ends Oct-14-04 08:37:23 PDT)        2493337499 - Songs of the West by Baring-Gould, 1913 edition, 3.70
GBP (ends Oct-14-04 09:12:05 PDT)        6931505226 - Folksongs of Britain & Ireland by Kennedy, 1975,
$9.99 (ends Oct-15-04 06:07:12 PDT)        3753767738 - GARNERS GAY ENGLISH FOLK SONGS COLLECTED BY FRED HAMER,
1967, 2 GBP (ends Oct-15-04 12:22:56 PDT)        2493227716 - PENGUIN BOOK OF SCOTTISH VERSE, 1976, 2.50 GBP (ends
Oct-16-04 14:51:34 PDT)        3753540459 - TWELVE FOLK SONGS FROM NOVA SCOTIA by Creighton &
Senior, 4.50 GBP (ends Oct-17-04 11:07:17 PDT)        3753540484 - ENGLISH FOLK- CAROLS by Sharp, 1911, 4.50 GBP (ends
Oct-17-04 11:07:21 PDT)        6931830818 - MARITIME FOLK SONGS by Creighton, 1972, $4.99 (ends
Oct-17-04 11:37:49 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

At 08:28 AM 9/10/04 -0700, you wrote:
>Folks:
>
>Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone knows what the Sharp-Karpeles
>_English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians_ went for in the
>recently concluded Ebay auction.
>
>EdIf you mean this set with the $199.99 starting bid, then -nobody bid on it:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=29223&item=6929590380&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVWLisa Johnson

In case anyone's interested, there is a 4 LP set of "Love is Teasin'" up on
Ebay right now:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4043092001&fromMakeTrack=true
"ELEKTRA 4 LP SET. THE JAC HOLZMAN YEARS ISSUED IN THE 1980'S. A FEW OF THE
MANY ARTISTS ARE JEAN RITCHIE-PEGGY SEEGER-ED McCURDY-TOM PALEY-SHEP GINANDES."
(I won't be bidding on it)Lisafrom Lisa ( aka: Strumelia Harmonia )
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Harmonia's Big B. / http://www.harmonias.com
Fiddle,Banjo,Mando, & OldTime music T-shirts.
and  "My Life...A Girls story of Musical Corruption"
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>