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There is a book, Wright and Wright, Danish Emigrant Songs published by
Southern Illinois University Press in 1983. Perhaps the phenomenon
(i.e., emigrant songs from mainland Europe published in English) is
confined to Scandanavia.  Of course, emigrant songs may perhaps be found
in wider collections of folk music from mainland Europe.  Yiddish folk
music has, I believe, a number of songs from the perspective of the
emigrant extolling the virtues of the old country  - although now that I
think of it some of them may well be composed "popular" songs (I believe
that "Roumania, Roumania" was composed but "Belz mine shtetele Belz" was
traditional.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 9/5/2004 12:17:00 PM >>>A few days ago, Dolores posted an EBAY entry for 6923349878  -
Norwegian
Emigrant Songs and Ballads by Blegen & Ruud, 1979 reprint, $9.99  (ends
Sep-05-04
12:24:07 PDT).This has prompted me to raise a question which has been puzzling me for
 some
time; namely how prevelant are emigrant songs from the various
countries of
mainland Europe, and to what extent does the said prevelance correlate
with
emigration rates, circumstances of emigration etc.I shall order the Blegen and Ruud on interlibrary loan, but I would be
interested to know of anything else which has been published in English
on
European emigration songs.Many hopeful thanks,Fred McCormick.

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Fred:Though I suspect you are more curious about non-English speaking people emigrating to the United States, I would call your attention to:1) Bill Wannan, _The Folklore of the Irish in Australia_ (Melbourne: John Currey, O'Neil Publishers, 1980); and2) Robert L. Wright, ed., _Irish Emigrant Ballads and Songs_
(Bowling Green, Ohio: Bowling Green University Popular Press, 1975).I am sure there are others, but they are beyond the scope of my personal library.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, September 5, 2004 9:17 am
Subject: Norewgian Emigrant Songs>
> A few days ago, Dolores posted an EBAY entry for 6923349878  - Norwegian
> Emigrant Songs and Ballads by Blegen & Ruud, 1979 reprint, $9.99  (ends
> Sep-05-04
> 12:24:07 PDT).
>
> This has prompted me to raise a question which has been puzzling me for  some
> time; namely how prevelant are emigrant songs from the various countries of
> mainland Europe, and to what extent does the said prevelance correlate  with
> emigration rates, circumstances of emigration etc.
>
> I shall order the Blegen and Ruud on interlibrary loan, but I would be
> interested to know of anything else which has been published in English on
> European emigration songs.
>
> Many hopeful thanks,
>
> Fred McCormick.
>
>

Fred et al:Lewis' note reminds me of Don Yoder's _Folk Songs Along the Maha[can't remember the rest of the name], which, I believe, is concerned with Pennsylvania "Dutch" songlore.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, September 5, 2004 9:37 am
Subject: Re: Norewgian Emigrant Songs> There is a book, Wright and Wright, Danish Emigrant Songs published by
> Southern Illinois University Press in 1983. Perhaps the phenomenon
> (i.e., emigrant songs from mainland Europe published in English) is
> confined to Scandanavia.  Of course, emigrant songs may perhaps be found
> in wider collections of folk music from mainland Europe.  Yiddish folk
> music has, I believe, a number of songs from the perspective of the
> emigrant extolling the virtues of the old country  - although now that I
> think of it some of them may well be composed "popular" songs (I believe
> that "Roumania, Roumania" was composed but "Belz mine shtetele Belz" was
> traditional.
>
> Lew Becker
>
>
>
> >>> [unmask] 9/5/2004 12:17:00 PM >>>
>
> A few days ago, Dolores posted an EBAY entry for 6923349878  -
> Norwegian
> Emigrant Songs and Ballads by Blegen & Ruud, 1979 reprint, $9.99  (ends
> Sep-05-04
> 12:24:07 PDT).
>
> This has prompted me to raise a question which has been puzzling me for
> some
> time; namely how prevelant are emigrant songs from the various
> countries of
> mainland Europe, and to what extent does the said prevelance correlate
> with
> emigration rates, circumstances of emigration etc.
>
> I shall order the Blegen and Ruud on interlibrary loan, but I would be
> interested to know of anything else which has been published in English
> on
> European emigration songs.
>
> Many hopeful thanks,
>
> Fred McCormick.
>

Hi,
   It is the title of the English translation (I think) of Liao Zhai
Zhi Yi, folk tales collected and rewritten by a scholar in Qing
Dynasty.
   Has anyone read it or known anything about I? I am fascinated by
those love stories between human and animal and plant spirits, and
ghosts. Those spirits and ghosts all have such wonderful characters,
much more attractive than their human counterparts. They are all such
poetic figures.
   Meng Yu

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On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 03:47:34PM -0400, Fred McCormick wrote:
>
>
> Thanks John,
>
> I know about Wright's book on Irish Emigrant Songs. In fact I spent a long
> time bent over the office photocopier, photocopying all 700 odd pages. You're
> right. It's not a good book, being mainly a compendium rfrom published
> sources.  In fact, you can often see where he got the stuff, from the layout and the
> typeface.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Fred.
>
Hi!        I think that I have seen a book of Polish material during my
Ebay searches. I don't remember any details or whether I included it in
my posted listings. Sorry I can't supply more detailed info. :-(                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On 9/5/04, Dolores Nichols wrote:>On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 03:47:34PM -0400, Fred McCormick wrote:
>>
>>
>> Thanks John,
>>
>> I know about Wright's book on Irish Emigrant Songs. In fact I spent a long
>> time bent over the office photocopier, photocopying all 700 odd pages. You're
>> right. It's not a good book, being mainly a compendium rfrom published
>> sources.  In fact, you can often see where he got the stuff, from the layout and the
>> typeface.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>> Fred.
>>
>Hi!
>
>        I think that I have seen a book of Polish material during my
>Ebay searches. I don't remember any details or whether I included it in
>my posted listings. Sorry I can't supply more detailed info. :-(I believe I've seen a book of Serbo-Croatian songs (they were still
calling them one language back then). As with you, I don't remember
details. There are a lot of Croats in Minnesota, but I'm not one
of them. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Fred,
 
The Galician (or gallego if you prefer) tradition certainly has a very long
and distinguished history of songs related to people going overseas, but it
isn't quite the same thing as emigrant songs. There is a tradition
concerning la morri? -  homesickness - but that is rather different. The
men went to Latin America looking for work, leaving their women behind to
run their tiny and inadequate landholdings. The idea was to make enough
money to come back and buy a sustainable landholding. So it isn't really
about emigration at all, in the sense of songs by people in the new country
making a new life and retaining nostalgia for the old - it's about the man
remembering the old country and going back there, or about the woman
remembering the far-away husband/lover. Indeed, the idea of the far-away
lover across the sea goes back to the 14th century Galician courtly songs
with a pseudo(?) folk origin - the cantigas de amigo, the origins of which
go back even earlier.I think it is extremely likely that there are/were Spanish and Portuguese
songs from Latin America that parallel the anglophone emigrant songs of the
US and Canada, but it's not my area, so  I can't say. You need a Latin
American lurker on the list to pick this up. I did a quick Google on the
subject and quickly turned up stuff from Argentina. However, I certainly
don't know of any works in English on the subject. Sorry, that's not much
help. If I get any inspirations I'll post them on the list.On a parallel strand, one person you might ask is Luisa del Giudice to see
if she can shed any light on the Italian aspect (always assuming that she's
lurking on the list at the moment).Sorry I can't be more help.CheersSimon
________________________________From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On
Behalf Of Fred McCormick
Sent: 05 September 2004 18:04
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Norewgian Emigrant SongsHi Lew,
 
Thanks for the info. I'll check that one out too. Like you, I'm curious that
both these collections are from Scandanavia, and I'm wondering whether this
this bears out impressions I've had from commercial releases of European
field recordings. IE., that emigration songs were much more prevalent in
Ireland and Scandanavia than in other European countries. 
 
I have heard though, (more barroom gossip than anything) that Galicia has a
significant tradition of emigration songs. I wonder if Simon Furey, or any
other board members could confirm or refute this.
 
Cheers,
 
Fred.
 
In a message dated 05/09/04 17:52:36 GMT Daylight Time,
[unmask] writes:        There is a book, Wright and Wright, Danish Emigrant Songs published
by
        Southern Illinois University Press in 1983. Perhaps the phenomenon
        (i.e., emigrant songs from mainland Europe published in English) is
        confined to Scandanavia.  Of course, emigrant songs may perhaps be
found
        in wider collections of folk music from mainland Europe.  Yiddish
folk
        music has, I believe, a number of songs from the perspective of the
        emigrant extolling the virtues of the old country  - although now
that I
        think of it some of them may well be composed "popular" songs (I
believe
        that "Roumania, Roumania" was composed but "Belz mine shtetele Belz"
was
        traditional.
	
        Lew Becker__________ NOD32 1.861 (20040904) Information __________This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.nod32.com

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Fred:I would conjecture that the greater number of Irish immigrant songs and ballads stems from the fact that American publishing houses shared with the immigrants the more or less common language.  In short, the possible market for an Irish songster was greater than for, say, a Danish or even a German.While there was a considerable immigrant press in the United States, most of the proprietors operated on the economic margin.  A song collection to a publisher in German -- such as Bernard Ridder in Philadelphia who published the influential _Staats Zeitung_-- might feel that a song collection in the language  of the Old Country would be a very risky venture.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, September 5, 2004 12:47 pm
Subject: Re: Norwegian Emigrant Songs>
> Hi Ed.,
>
> You're right. It's mainly non-English speaking emigrants I'm after, at this
> stage at any rate. Basically, I'm trying to get my tiny mind around the
> enormous  number of Irish emigration songs, and asking whether there's any
> explanation beyond a simple correlation of emigrant  numbers, and reasons;
> persecution, famine, etc. Hunch tells me there  is, but I'm not yet sure
> what to look
> for. Hence my need to look at European  emigrant songs and the European
> emigration experience. At the moment, this is  more for personal
> satisfaction than
> anything, but the results could end up  as an article in Musical Traditions.
>
> Wannan will certainly be worth looking at, although I suspect most of the
> stuff in the book you mention, and The Wearing of the Green, will relate
> to ball
> and chain emigration; a different experience entirely !
>
> Interestingly enough, Wright and Wright, of Danish Songs, turn out to be
> Robert Wright, and what I presume is his wife, Rochelle.
>
> Hang on, John Moulden's just corrected me. Rochelle is his daughter.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred.
>
> In a message dated 05/09/04 18:22:40 GMT Daylight Time, [unmask]  writes:
>
> Fred:
>
> Though I suspect you are more curious about non-English  speaking people
> emigrating to the United States, I would call your attention  to:
>
> 1) Bill Wannan, _The Folklore of the Irish in Australia_  (Melbourne: John
> Currey, O'Neil Publishers, 1980); and
>
> 2) Robert L.  Wright, ed., _Irish Emigrant Ballads and Songs_
> (Bowling Green, Ohio:  Bowling Green University Popular Press, 1975).
>
> I am sure there are  others, but they are beyond the scope of my personal
> library.
>
> Ed
>
>

Folks:Simon's good message demonstrates just how short-sighted this Southern Californian can be.  I would imagine that there are many _corridos_ and _rancheros_ that speak of thye Mexican and Mexican-American immigrant/emigrant experience.  I know of no collections -- this is just not my turf -- but I am forwarding this message to a friend who is very knowledgeable about contemporary (and earlier) folk ballads of the Hispanic community in the West.Jim, can you coke up with CDs, books, song collections that have songs and ballads describing the Hispanic immigration experience?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, September 5, 2004 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: Norewgian Emigrant Songs> Fred,
> 
> The Galician (or gallego if you prefer) tradition certainly has a very long
> and distinguished history of songs related to people going overseas, but it
> isn't quite the same thing as emigrant songs. There is a tradition
> concerning la morri? -  homesickness - but that is rather different. The
> men went to Latin America looking for work, leaving their women behind to
> run their tiny and inadequate landholdings. The idea was to make enough
> money to come back and buy a sustainable landholding. So it isn't really
> about emigration at all, in the sense of songs by people in the new country
> making a new life and retaining nostalgia for the old - it's about the man
> remembering the old country and going back there, or about the woman
> remembering the far-away husband/lover. Indeed, the idea of the far-away
> lover across the sea goes back to the 14th century Galician courtly songs
> with a pseudo(?) folk origin - the cantigas de amigo, the origins of which
> go back even earlier.
> 
> I think it is extremely likely that there are/were Spanish and Portuguese
> songs from Latin America that parallel the anglophone emigrant songs of the
> US and Canada, but it's not my area, so  I can't say. You need a Latin
> American lurker on the list to pick this up. I did a quick Google on the
> subject and quickly turned up stuff from Argentina. However, I certainly
> don't know of any works in English on the subject. Sorry, that's not much
> help. If I get any inspirations I'll post them on the list.
> 
> On a parallel strand, one person you might ask is Luisa del Giudice to see
> if she can shed any light on the Italian aspect (always assuming that she's
> lurking on the list at the moment).
> 
> Sorry I can't be more help.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Simon
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Forum for ballad scholars [[unmask]] On
> Behalf Of Fred McCormick
> Sent: 05 September 2004 18:04
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Norewgian Emigrant Songs
> 
> 
> Hi Lew,
> 
> Thanks for the info. I'll check that one out too. Like you, I'm curious that
> both these collections are from Scandanavia, and I'm wondering whether this
> this bears out impressions I've had from commercial releases of European
> field recordings. IE., that emigration songs were much more prevalent in
> Ireland and Scandanavia than in other European countries. 
> 
> I have heard though, (more barroom gossip than anything) that Galicia has a
> significant tradition of emigration songs. I wonder if Simon Furey, or any
> other board members could confirm or refute this.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Fred.
> 
> In a message dated 05/09/04 17:52:36 GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
> 
>        There is a book, Wright and Wright, Danish Emigrant Songs published
> by
>        Southern Illinois University Press in 1983. Perhaps the phenomenon
>        (i.e., emigrant songs from mainland Europe published in English) is
>        confined to Scandanavia.  Of course, emigrant songs may perhaps be
> found
>        in wider collections of folk music from mainland Europe.  Yiddish
> folk
>        music has, I believe, a number of songs from the perspective of the
>        emigrant extolling the virtues of the old country  - although now
> that I
>        think of it some of them may well be composed "popular" songs (I
> believe
>        that "Roumania, Roumania" was composed but "Belz mine shtetele Belz"
> was
>        traditional.
>     
>        Lew Becker
> 
> 
> 
> __________ NOD32 1.861 (20040904) Information __________
> 
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.nod32.com
>

This sounds like the collection I saw years ago called  _Strange Stories
from a Chinese Studio_, translated by the Oriental scholar H. A.Giles. As I
remember, they feature ghosts ans such, but generally have a moral point to
them.
Murray Shoolbraid

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Fred and Friends:A last recollection:Somewhere in Pete Seeger's vast discography is a song/ballad(?) "He Lies in the American Land," or some such title.  This emigrant's song is Slavic/Balkin/something in origin.I am sure someone on the ballad-l list can supply details.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, September 6, 2004 6:08 am
Subject: Re: Norewgian Emigrant Songs>
> Hi Mark,
>
> This gets facsinatinger and fascinatinger. First of all, one presumes  that
> such songs must have predated the great depression. If so, one would  expect
> them to be reasonably well documented.
>
> The trouble is that, over the years, I have amassed a considerable
> collection of field recorded LPs, CDs and cassettes and can't recall a
> single  emigrant
> song among them. Indeed, the only connection I can bring to mind  between the
> Balkans and America is that the tune of Go Tell Aunt Rodie turns up  on a
> Greek LP. Since it's a field recording, published by the  Society for the
> Dissemination of National Music, I presume it's not a wind  up.
>
> However, the stuff I've been listening to all these years is overwhelmingly
> rural, and I'm wondering whether these songs may be part of an urban
> entertainment tradition; something like rembetika perhaps, or maybe something
> analogous to vaudeville or music hall.
>
> In any event, the fact that bad working conditions and bosses seem to be a
> prevalent theme in these songs may be significant. From what I can gather,
> emigrant patterns from southern Europe often reflected what I shall term the
> fast buck syndrome. In other words, young men would emigrate to America
> for  a
> short period of time, specifically to raise enough money to buy  a farm or
> business on their return. One could imagine such workers taking the
> dirtiest and
> most unsafe jobs on offer, since these would logically pay the  highest wages.
> Therefore, one could also imagine the songs of these  workers to deal with
> lousy bosses and working conditions.
>
> Any more details you could furnish would be extremely  welcome. What  does
> pecelbari mean, by the way ?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred.
>
> In a message dated 06/09/04 02:37:59 GMT Daylight Time, [unmask]
> writes:
>
>
> The Balkans have immense numbers of Emigrant songs.  They even have  a
> special name for Emigrant workers "pecelbari".  Several songs bemoaning  the
> hardships of working in America begin with the line "Bog da bie,  Amerika"
> (God
> curse America)
>
> Mark G
>
>
>
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]><<A last recollection:Somewhere in Pete Seeger's vast discography is a song/ballad(?) "He Lies in
the American Land," or some such title.  This emigrant's song is
Slavic/Balkin/something in origin.I am sure someone on the ballad-l list can supply details.>>The title you remember is correct; the author was Andrew Kovaly, a Slovak (I
think) emigrant working in the Pennsylvania steel mills. A friend of his,
also an emigrant, had just sent for his family when he was killed in a
factory accident. Kovaly had the sad task of telling the family when they
arrived; he wrote the poem afterwards. Pete found the poem someplace and
wrote the tune, IIRC.Peace,
Paul

Hello All:I am sure you all have a favorite passage or two that speaks to the battle of the sexes.  I would love to know what they are and the source.  I noticed looking for Barb'ra Ellen in the TTM the other day that many of the ballads speak to this - what I wondered is what is your favorite. This is labor day and you can't work all day.  Though I have done it many times myself.ThanksSammy Rich

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On 2004/09/06 at 09:08:21AM -0400, Fred McCormick wrote:> Hi Mark,
>
> This gets facsinatinger and fascinatinger. First of all, one presumes  that
> such songs must have predated the great depression. If so, one would  expect
> them to be reasonably well documented.        [ ... ]> Any more details you could furnish would be extremely  welcome. What  does
> pecelbari mean, by the way ?
>        I hope that Mark is in a position to answer.  After all, he
lives in Florida, and a lot of that has been rather badly churned up.
He may not even have any electricity for his computer now.        Mark -- I hope that you came through with no problems.        Good Luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

>Hello All:
>
>I am sure you all have a favorite passage or two that speaks to the
>battle of the sexes.  I would love to know what they are and the
>source.  I noticed looking for Barb'ra Ellen in the TTM the other
>day that many of the ballads speak to this - what I wondered is what
>is your favorite. This is labor day and you can't work all day.
>Though I have done it many times myself.
>
>Thanks
>
>Sammy RichMan Smart, Woman Smarter (King Radio) and several others on Rounder
CD 1141, Fall of Man" Calypsos on the Human Condition.  Lest you
object that Man Smart is not a traditional ballad, it is my
understanding that it has entered the Calypso tradition, being
performed with modification by others.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Alex Moore:
I believe each and every woman deserves a chance at the tree of life (2x)
Just treat her nice and kind and be patient, that's the way I control my wife.orWilma Lee and Stony Cooper (or is it another singing couple?):He: I'm gonna wear the pants
She: And I'm gonna tell you what size to wear.This is all from memory so I hope I've rendered them faithfully. Y'all will
have to decide whether these are legit ballads.Paul GaronAt 12:20 PM 9/6/2004, you wrote:
>Hello All:
>
>I am sure you all have a favorite passage or two that speaks to the battle
>of the sexes.  I would love to know what they are and the source.  I
>noticed looking for Barb'ra Ellen in the TTM the other day that many of
>the ballads speak to this - what I wondered is what is your favorite. This
>is labor day and you can't work all day.  Though I have done it many times
>myself.
>
>Thanks
>
>Sammy RichPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

There was a question a while back concerning the whereabouts of Hazeldean.
I don't remember whether it has already been satisfactorily answered.  The
following is from Carolyn Robson's notes for her CD "dawn chorus",
concerning "Jock o'Hazeldean":"Though Scottish, written by Walter Scott, this song is set in
Northumberland where a lady betrothed to a local lord is in love with
another with whom she elopes over the Border into Scotland. Brian Watson
found the small farmhouse of Hazeldean on the Ordinance Survey map situated
just north of Hexham, my home town".Karen Kaplan, Toronto, Canada
[unmask]

Also, one can always now check the maps in the English and
Scottish Popular Ballads (digital edition)!

David,Still haven't received either a copy of the Mac edition of my English and
Scottish Popular Ballads or a response from my previous emails. It was supposed
ly going in the mail to me the next day over a month ago. Clarification, please.Mike Luster
Louisiana Folklife Festival
1800 Riverside Drive
Monroe, LA  71201[unmask]
www.LouisianaFolklifeFest.org
318-324-1665 voice or fax
318-503-1618 cell

Hi,
   It probably is the book I am thinking about.   If I remember correctly, for some stories, the author did make a
point, sometimes a political view. But for many stories, I think the
author was simply fond of those spirits and ghosts. The book was
originally written in ancient Chinese, with a fancy and sophisticated
style. I have difficulty reading it.   I can try to find the English translation and see what it is like.
   Meng YuOn Sun, 5 Sep 2004 21:10:30 -0700
 Murray Shoolbraid <[unmask]> wrote:
> This sounds like the collection I saw years ago called  _Strange
Stories
> from a Chinese Studio_, translated by the Oriental scholar H.
A.Giles. As I
> remember, they feature ghosts ans such, but generally have a moral
point to
> them.
> Murray Shoolbraid

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Yes the 'Hazelgreen' query was mine and I thank you for the reminder as
little has surfaced yet.
Walter Scott's 'Hazel Dean' was indeed part of the Errington Family
estates and the farm house is marked on OS maps just north of the Roman
Wall near Hexham, but the only connection it has with the traditional
ballad is that one verse of Scott's poem was based on the traditional
ballad and he set it in Northumberland. All oral versions, including all
those found in North America, of the old ballad 'John of Hazelgreen' call
it Hazelgreen. After scouring almost all of the OS maps covering 'The
South Countree' i.e. southern Scotland, and the border regions, the only
place name I have found anything like is a small village called Hazley
Green a couple of miles to the west of Newton Stewart in Galloway. I did
set off to investigate this a year ago but wrote my car off before I got
there! All other attempts to find out more about Hazley Green have failed
so far, but the village is only a few miles from Garlies Castle a seat of
the Stewart family.
Dave Eyre did say he remembers passing through a village called Hazel
Green when he was working on the borders but his memory is about as good
as mine these days!
SteveG

From "Both Sexes"She was not taken out of his head, sir
To rule and to triumph in man
Nor was she taken out of his foot, sir
By man to be trampled upon
But she was taken out of his side, sir
His equal co-partner to be
So united is man with his bride, sir
Yet Man is the top of the tree.Then let not the Fair be despis?
By man, as she's part of himself
Let Woman by Man be appris?
As more than a world full of wealth
For a man without Woman's a beggar
Though by him the world were possessed
But a beggar that's got a good woman
With more than the world is he blessed.Anyone who ever heard this sung at the Jolly Porter, Exeter, with Isca
Fayre in the van, will remember how the end of the firest of these
verses developed into a riot between the fair - and unfair? - sex. The
song in full is a great example of how cheekiness hits the limits before
the usual subservient male woman-on-a-pedestal yukk hits home.HnnnH?AndyPaul Garon wrote:
>
> Alex Moore:
> I believe each and every woman deserves a chance at the tree of life (2x)
> Just treat her nice and kind and be patient, that's the way I control my wife.
>
> or
>
> Wilma Lee and Stony Cooper (or is it another singing couple?):
>
> He: I'm gonna wear the pants
> She: And I'm gonna tell you what size to wear.
>
> This is all from memory so I hope I've rendered them faithfully. Y'all will
> have to decide whether these are legit ballads.
>
> Paul Garon
>
> At 12:20 PM 9/6/2004, you wrote:
> >Hello All:
> >
> >I am sure you all have a favorite passage or two that speaks to the battle
> >of the sexes.  I would love to know what they are and the source.  I
> >noticed looking for Barb'ra Ellen in the TTM the other day that many of
> >the ballads speak to this - what I wondered is what is your favorite. This
> >is labor day and you can't work all day.  Though I have done it many times
> >myself.
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Sammy Rich
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]

No, that was an oops directed at Heritage Muse meister David Kleiman. Sorry
to all.Mike Luster

For anyone who will be in the UK in February:Members of the Trad Song Forum (and others) may remember a successful session we held in London a couple of years ago, called 'Discoverers of Tradition', when Reg Hall, Peter Kennedy, John Howson, and Doc Rowe were invited to give informal talks about their life and work, and their thoughts on the universe.
This is just advance warning that we're hoping to run a similar session, at Cecil Sharp House (London) - with 4 new victims - on Saturday 19th February 2005, so keep the date free and watch this space for further details.
Steve RoudSignup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

This is found frequently in American shaped-note tune books such as
The Sacred Harp, The Missouri Harmony, etc., beginning, "When Adam
was first created, The lord of the universe round.">From "Both Sexes"
>
>She was not taken out of his head, sir
>To rule and to triumph in man
>Nor was she taken out of his foot, sir
>By man to be trampled upon
>But she was taken out of his side, sir
>His equal co-partner to be
>So united is man with his bride, sir
>Yet Man is the top of the tree.
>
>Then let not the Fair be despis?
>By man, as she's part of himself
>Let Woman by Man be appris?
>As more than a world full of wealth
>For a man without Woman's a beggar
>Though by him the world were possessed
>But a beggar that's got a good woman
>With more than the world is he blessed.
>
>Anyone who ever heard this sung at the Jolly Porter, Exeter, with Isca
>Fayre in the van, will remember how the end of the firest of these
>verses developed into a riot between the fair - and unfair? - sex. The
>song in full is a great example of how cheekiness hits the limits before
>the usual subservient male woman-on-a-pedestal yukk hits home.
>
>HnnnH?
>
>Andy
>
>Paul Garon wrote:
>>
>>  Alex Moore:
>>  I believe each and every woman deserves a chance at the tree of life (2x)
>>  Just treat her nice and kind and be patient, that's the way I
>>control my wife.
>>
>>  or
>>
>>  Wilma Lee and Stony Cooper (or is it another singing couple?):
>>
>>  He: I'm gonna wear the pants
>>  She: And I'm gonna tell you what size to wear.
>>
>>  This is all from memory so I hope I've rendered them faithfully. Y'all will
>>  have to decide whether these are legit ballads.
>>
>>  Paul Garon
>>
>>  At 12:20 PM 9/6/2004, you wrote:
>>  >Hello All:
>>  >
>>  >I am sure you all have a favorite passage or two that speaks to the battle
>>  >of the sexes.  I would love to know what they are and the source.  I
>>  >noticed looking for Barb'ra Ellen in the TTM the other day that many of
>>  >the ballads speak to this - what I wondered is what is your favorite. This
>>  >is labor day and you can't work all day.  Though I have done it many times
>>  >myself.
>>  >
>>  >Thanks
>>  >
>>  >Sammy Rich
>>
>>  Paul and Beth Garon
>>  Beasley Books (ABAA)
>>  1533 W. Oakdale
>>  Chicago, IL 60657
>>  (773) 472-4528
>>  (773) 472-7857 FAX
>>  [unmask]--
john garst    [unmask]

What a great idea, Steve!
I suppose I'd better get my finger out and confirm the Dec 4th meeting in
Sheffield with Jonathan Stock. We're hoping Doc Rowe will be able to give
a presentation and actually visit his archive.
SteveG.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Again, what a brilliant idea! Thanks, Dave.>From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]>
>Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
>To: [unmask]
>Subject: Re: Proposed London meeting 19 Feb 2005
>Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:41:00 +0100
>
>
>
> > What a great idea, Steve!
> > I suppose I'd better get my finger out and confirm the Dec 4th meeting
>in
> > Sheffield with Jonathan Stock. We're hoping Doc Rowe will be able to
>give
> > a presentation and actually visit his archive.
> > SteveG.
>
>And if anyone needs to stay over and have a sing at the carols either
>Saturday evening, or Sunday evening or both then I am sure we can find a
>bed
>or three for people.
>
>Dave
>_________________________________________________________________
Want to block unwanted pop-ups? Download the free MSN Toolbar now!
http://toolbar.msn.co.uk/

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I'm trying to find an email address (although snail mail will do) for Roger
Bruns, author of KNIGHTS OF THE ROAD and THE DAMNDEST RADICAL, among
others. I realize this is slightly OT, but the author of a hobo book is
fairly close to topic.You can email the address to me or the list, or just give it to a passing
squirrel. They *all* know where we live!PaulPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Hi,I hate to steal someone else's line--about crass commerical
announcements--but here is one:I've uploaded 36 78s to ebay. Victor hillbilly items in the 23500 and 40000
series, race series Okehs, some Paramount hillbilly and Broadway hillbilly,
jazz and dance bands, some r & b, and even a few 45s. There's a a scarce
champion coupling of IN THE JAILHOUSE NOW/FRANKIE AND JOHNNIE by the West
Virginia Rail Splitter, too.See them at:http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&since=-1&userid=beasleybooks&rows=50&include=0&rd=1or search by seller under beasleybooksPaul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Paul:A hasty Google search turned up this:"Roger Bruns is the Deputy Executive Director for the National Publications and Records Commission at the National Archives."You might try writing him at the National Archives in Suitland, Md.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2004 2:01 pm
Subject: Email address sought> I'm trying to find an email address (although snail mail will do) for Roger
> Bruns, author of KNIGHTS OF THE ROAD and THE DAMNDEST RADICAL, among
> others. I realize this is slightly OT, but the author of a hobo book is
> fairly close to topic.
>
> You can email the address to me or the list, or just give it to a passing
> squirrel. They *all* know where we live!
>
> Paul
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

Hello to you all.I'm very pleased to announce a new Musical Traditions CD:The Birds Upon the Tree - and other traditional songs and tunes (MTCD333)A further selection from the Mike Yates Collection, featuring Fred Jordan, Packie Manus Byrne, George Fradley, Charlie Bridger, Scan Tester & Rabbidy Baxter, Archer Goode, George Spicer, Bob Blake, Debbie & Pennie Davis, Freda Palmer, Harry Cockerill, Ray Driscoll, Jacquey Gabriel, Alice Francombe and Ivor Hill & family.22 of the 27 tracks are previously unreleased.  It comes with a 24 page integral booklet in DVD case, runs for 74 minutes, and costs just ?12.00 inc UK p&p.As usual, you can get it from me at the address below, paying with a cheque, or from the MT Records website paying with a debit/credit card.  Full track listings and booklet notes are also available there.I know you will enjoy it.  Best wishes,Rod Stradling
Musical Traditions Records
with on-line credit/debit card purchasing at:
www.mtrecords.co.uk
Musical Traditions Internet Magazine at:
www.mustrad.org.uk
1 Castle Street, Stroud, Glos  GL5 2HP, UK
01453 759475
[unmask]Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

There seem to be several translations of the title of this collection: my copy
reads Tales from the Make-Do Studio (whatever that might mean), and I have also
seen Tales from a Chinese Studio.  I should mention that these are not
folktales: they are the work of Pu Songling at the end of the 17th century.
Strongly recommended anyway.If anyone is interested in an outstanding introduction to Chinese ballads, can I
recommend Antoinet Schimmelpenninck's Chinese Folk Songs and Folk Singers
(CHIME Foundation, Leiden, Holland, 1997)?  Despite its subtitle 'Shang'e
Traditions in Southern Jiangsu', she goes much wider and attempts an overview
of the whole vast field, ancient as well as Maoist and post-Maoist.  There are
lots of ballads and songs included, all translated and given in full,
illustrations, and a CD which gives a brief sense of what nearly a hundred of
these songs sounded like. It's also extremely well-written and often very
amusing.Gerald Porter> Hi,
>    It is the title of the English translation (I think) of Liao Zhai
> Zhi Yi, folk tales collected and rewritten by a scholar in Qing
> Dynasty.
>    Has anyone read it or known anything about I? I am fascinated by
> those love stories between human and animal and plant spirits, and
> ghosts. Those spirits and ghosts all have such wonderful characters,
> much more attractive than their human counterparts. They are all such
> poetic figures.
>    Meng Yu
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

"Chinese Folk songs and Folk Singers - Shan'ge Traditions in Southern
Jiangsu" is available at
http://home.planet.nl/~chime/entries/monnogr.html.Cheers,Stephanie Crouch>I've just done a search on Amazon and Ebay for Schimmelpenninck's
>book, and drawn a blank, except that Amazon tell me it is out of
>print. So interested parties may have difficulty obtaining a copy.
>
>Anyone who wants to alleviate their frustration can do so by looking
>out a disc of Chinese folk music on a budget label called Air Mail
>Music. The disc is just called China, and it is on SA 141012, and it
>is absolutely stunning.
>
>Be warned, though. Like the rest of Air Mail Music's output, we are
>talking the last word in economy class. The discs have no notes
>or performer information, or any indication as to where the music
>comes from. However, these appear to be genuine field recordings of
>some of the most hair raising music you are ever likely to come
>across. Since Air Mails retail in the UK for between five and six
>pounds sterling, such shortcomings have got to be worth putting up
>with.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Fred McCormick.
>
>
>
>If anyone is interested in an outstanding introduction to Chinese
>ballads, can I
>recommend Antoinet Schimmelpenninck's Chinese Folk Songs and Folk Singers
>(CHIME Foundation, Leiden, Holland, 1997)?  Despite its subtitle 'Shang'e
>Traditions in Southern Jiangsu', she goes much wider and attempts an overview
>of the whole vast field, ancient as well as Maoist and post-Maoist.  There are
>lots of ballads and songs included, all translated and given in full,
>illustrations, and a CD which gives a brief sense of what nearly a hundred of
>these songs sounded like. It's also extremely well-written and often very
>amusing.
>
>Gerald Porter
>
>

Hi!        Between hurricanes, here is the latest Ebay list. :-)        SONGSTERS        2267718945 - Lane's Popular Moving Picture Songster, 1900?, $3
(ends Sep-10-04 13:25:16 PDT)        3929107850 - Barnum's Circus Clown & Concert Songster, 1860?,
$49.99 (ends Sep-12-04 14:18:36 PDT)        3929876287 - The Barnum & Bailey Songster, 1902?, $9.99 (ends
Sep-16-04 12:58:31 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        4035164458 - BOB & RON COPPER, LP, 1963, 8.50 GBP (ends Sep-11-04
10:51:48 PDT)        4035184054 - CHARLIE WILLS, Leader LP, 1972, 4.99 GBP (ends
Sep-11-04 12:36:08 PDT)        4035191618 - UNTO BRIGG FAIR by Joseph Taylor, Leader LP, 1972,
9.39 GBP (ends Sep-11-04 13:12:39 PDT)        3747005766 - 2 Irish broadsides (The Irish Rake & A Divine Poem
Written on St. Francis), 18??, 4.50 GBP (ends Sep-12-04 01:16:48 PDT)        4035785115 - GEORGE BELTON, LP, 1967, 4.99 GBP (ends ep-14-04
11:47:30 PDT)        4035798551 - Songs From the Eel's Foot (Jumbo Brightwell), Topic
LP, 1975, $5 (ends Sep-14-04 12:44:49 PDT)        4036053438 - The Depression and the New Deal Through Songs and
Ballads, LP, $15.99 (ends Sep-15-04 15:43:47 PDT)        SONGBOOKS        3746343195 - FOLK SONGS COLLECTED BY RALPH VAUGHAN WILLIAMS by
Palmer, 4.50 GBP (ENDS Sep-10-04 12:02:49 PDT)        3928833432 - Afro - American Folksong Song BY Krehbiel, 1900?,
$0.01 (ends Sep-10-04 16:28:08 PDT)        3746478127 - Anglo - American Folksong Style by Abrahams & Foss,
$4.50 (ends Sep-11-04 10:13:22 PDT)        6924842831 - CLAYMORE and KILT Scottish History & Ballads by
Leodhas, 1971, 2.75 GBP (ends Sep-11-04 13:28:03 PDT)        6924871329 - Two Penny Ballads and Four Dollar Whiskey A
Pennsylvania Folklore Miscellany by Goldstein & Byington, 1966, $4 (ends
Sep-11-04 17:11:33 PDT)        6924884105 - The Viking Book of Folk Ballads of the English-Speaking
World, 1961 printing, $2 (ends Sep-11-04 18:50:18 PDT)        3838101055 - NURSERY SONGS FROM THE APPALACHIAN MOUNTAINS by Sharp,
1921, 25 GBP (ends Sep-12-04 03:43:10 PDT)        6925408657 -  SELECTION OF SOME LESS KNOWN FOLK SONGS by Sharp &
Williams, 1951 edition, 5 GBP (ends Sep-12-04 04:37:54 PDT)        6925101088 - THE PENGUIN BOOK OF CANADIAN FOLK SONGS by Fowke,
1973, $3.49 (ends Sep-05-04 17:45:31 PDT)        6924706455 - American Folk Tale and Songs by Chase, 1971, $5 (ends
Sep-12-04 18:00:00 PDT)        6925156337 - Folksongs of Britain and Ireland by Kennedy, 1975,
$6 (ends Sep-12-04 20:42:50 PDT)        6925180266 - THE SECOND BOOK OF IRISH BALLADS by Healy, 1964,
$9.95 AU (ends Sep-13-04 02:24:34 PDT)        4034975044 - Historical Ballads by Sidgewick, 1927, 0.99 GBP (ends
Sep-13-04 06:11:24 PDT)        6925233138 - Scottish Ballads by Lyle, 1995, $1.99 (ends
Sep-13-04 09:43:47 PDT)        6924591523 - John Pitts: Ballad Printer Of Seven Dials, London
1765-1844 by Shepard, 1969, $9.95 (ends Sep-13-04 12:00:00 PDT)        6925325847 - Jacobite Melodies, 1823, $11.38 (ends Sep-13-04
16:29:22 PDT)        6925437707 - The New Green Mountain Songster by Flanders, Ballard,
Brown & Barry, 1939, $39.99 (ends Sep-13-04 19:04:23 PDT)        3746594848 - ENGLISH FOLK SONGS Somerset by Sharp, 1959 reprint,
6.70 GBP (ends Sep-15-04 04:08:30 PDT)        6925816558 - Blue Ridge Music Trails by Chatterley & Fussell, 2003,
$0.99 (ends Sep-15-04 18:42:49 PDT)        6925841380 - Only A Miner by Green, 1972, $9.99 (ends Sep-15-04
21:08:09 PDT)        3746829553 - EIGHTY ENGLISH FOLK SONGS,From The Southern
Appalachians by Sharp & Karpeles, 1968 edition, 4.99 GBP (ends Sep-16-04
12:30:00 PDT)        3746944105 - SONGS THAT MADE AUSTRALIA by Fahey, $10 AU (ends
Sep-16-04 16:37:37 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Folks:Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone knows what the Sharp-Karpeles _English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians_ went for in the recently concluded Ebay auction.EdP.S. to Lewis Becker:  Are you "Lewbooks" on Ebay?  (I don't want to bid against you.)

On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 08:28:21AM -0700, edward cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone knows what the Sharp-Karpeles
>_English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians_ went for in the
>recently concluded Ebay auction.
>
> Ed
>
> P.S. to Lewis Becker:  Are you "Lewbooks" on Ebay?  (I don't want to
>bid against you.)
>Ed,        If you mean the two volume set that had an opening price of just
under $200, no one bid on it. I expect it to be relisted soon.                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Does Roark Bradford have any credibility as a collector/scholar of
African-American material?In Wings, Vol. 5, No. 9, Sepember 1931, he wrote that"...negroes do not make narrative songs"and goes on to describe what we might now call "blues ballads."In the same article, he gives the following verses of "John Henry"
and "Frankie and Johnnie" (his spelling), respectively, which I don't
recall from other sources.John Henry was a cotton rollin' man,
   Had his hook-a in his hand all de time,
And before he'd let dat winch burn him down,
   Oh, he died wid his hook-a in his hand, Lawd, Lawd,
   And he died with his hook-a in his hand.Frankie tuck a shot er cocaine.
   Den she tuck a shot er gin.
Den she tuck a shot at her lovin' man,
   Ah, Lawd, ain't dat's a sin.
She shot him down - root-te-toot-toot-toot!He claims that these are from traditional sources, but I'm suspicious
that he is doing a little leg-pulling.What do you think?John

In a message dated 9/10/04 12:45:46 PM, [unmask] writes:>Does Roark Bradford have any credibility as a collector/scholar of
>African-American material?
 yes and a fine writer tooMike Luster
Louisiana Folklife Festival
1800 Riverside Drive
Monroe, LA  71201[unmask]
www.LouisianaFolklifeFest.org
318-324-1665 voice or fax
318-503-1618 cell

I do not know anything as a fact, but I've always seen him as more of a
"imaginative writer" (nudge, nudge) than a folklorist. I think folklore to him
is something to be worked on and made more palatable. (I know, I should talk!)Paul GaronQuoting John Garst <[unmask]>:> Does Roark Bradford have any credibility as a collector/scholar of
> African-American material?
>
> In Wings, Vol. 5, No. 9, Sepember 1931, he wrote that
>
> "...negroes do not make narrative songs"
>
> and goes on to describe what we might now call "blues ballads."
>
> In the same article, he gives the following verses of "John Henry"
> and "Frankie and Johnnie" (his spelling), respectively, which I don't
> recall from other sources.
>
>
>
> John Henry was a cotton rollin' man,
>    Had his hook-a in his hand all de time,
> And before he'd let dat winch burn him down,
>    Oh, he died wid his hook-a in his hand, Lawd, Lawd,
>    And he died with his hook-a in his hand.
>
>
> Frankie tuck a shot er cocaine.
>    Den she tuck a shot er gin.
> Den she tuck a shot at her lovin' man,
>    Ah, Lawd, ain't dat's a sin.
> She shot him down - root-te-toot-toot-toot!
>
>
> He claims that these are from traditional sources, but I'm suspicious
> that he is doing a little leg-pulling.
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> John
>

Dolores:Thanks.  That was the one.  Let's watch and see what it does.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 10, 2004 8:58 am
Subject: Re: Sharp's Appalachian Collection> On Fri, Sep 10, 2004 at 08:28:21AM -0700, edward cray wrote:
> >
> > Folks:
> >
> > Out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone knows what the Sharp-Karpeles
> >_English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians_ went for in the
> >recently concluded Ebay auction.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > P.S. to Lewis Becker:  Are you "Lewbooks" on Ebay?  (I don't want to
> >bid against you.)
> >
>
> Ed,
>
>        If you mean the two volume set that had an opening price of just
> under $200, no one bid on it. I expect it to be relisted soon.
>
>                                Dolores
>
> --
> Dolores Nichols                 |
> D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
> Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?
>

John:You're not the only one.  I don't see Bradford cited by students of black music.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 10, 2004 10:28 am
Subject: Roark Bradford> Does Roark Bradford have any credibility as a collector/scholar of
> African-American material?
>
> In Wings, Vol. 5, No. 9, Sepember 1931, he wrote that
>
> "...negroes do not make narrative songs"
>
> and goes on to describe what we might now call "blues ballads."
>
> In the same article, he gives the following verses of "John Henry"
> and "Frankie and Johnnie" (his spelling), respectively, which I don't
> recall from other sources.
>
>
>
> John Henry was a cotton rollin' man,
>   Had his hook-a in his hand all de time,
> And before he'd let dat winch burn him down,
>   Oh, he died wid his hook-a in his hand, Lawd, Lawd,
>   And he died with his hook-a in his hand.
>
>
> Frankie tuck a shot er cocaine.
>   Den she tuck a shot er gin.
> Den she tuck a shot at her lovin' man,
>   Ah, Lawd, ain't dat's a sin.
> She shot him down - root-te-toot-toot-toot!
>
>
> He claims that these are from traditional sources, but I'm suspicious
> that he is doing a little leg-pulling.
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> John
>

 From today's Boston GlobeA little history then on Charlie and his fateful ride on the MBTA, 
which we found fun.We tip our hat to the Web work of Jonathan D. Reed 
(http://web.mit.edu/jdreed/www/t/charlie.html), who graciously allowed 
us to reprint the following edited history."It seems that in the 1940s, the then-MTA fare-schedule was very 
complicated. At one time, the booklet that explained it was nine pages 
long. And rather than raise the overall fare, fare increases were 
implemented by means of an exit fare paid after exiting a train. Such 
fares were an easy way to boost revenue without having to modify all 
the turnstiles for the new rate."It just so happens that one of the key points of the platform of 
Walter A. O'Brien, a Progressive Party candidate for mayor of Boston, 
was to fight fare increases and make the fare schedule more uniform. 
Thus, in a weird way, Charlie was born."The text of the song was written in 1948 by Jacqueline Steiner (nee 
Berman) and Bess Lomax Hawes. It was one of seven songs written for 
O'Brien's campaign, each one emphasizing a key point of his platform."The song was recorded by a group called the Almanac Singers, whose 
members included Lomax Hawes, Steiner, and a young guitar player named 
Pete Seeger. One recording was made of each song, and they were 
broadcast from a sound truck that drove around the streets of Boston. 
This eventually earned O'Brien a $10 fine for disturbing the peace."A singer named Will Holt recorded the story of Charlie as a pop song 
for Coral Records after hearing an impromptu performance of the tune in 
a San Francisco coffeehouse by a former member of the Almanac Singers. 
The record company was astounded by a deluge of protests from Boston 
because the song made a hero out of a local "radical." During the 
McCarthy era of the 1950s, the Progressive Party became synonymous with 
the Communist Party, and since O'Brien was a Progressive, he was 
labeled a Communist. It is important to note that, contrary to popular 
belief, O'Brien was never on the Communist Party ticket. Nonetheless, 
Holt's record was hastily withdrawn."O'Brien lost the election. . . and moved back to his home state of 
Maine in 1957, where he became a school librarian and a bookstore 
owner. He died in July 1998."By the way, Charlie did get off the train. In the mid-1980s, the fare 
for senior citizens was reduced to 10 cents. And since Charlie had a 
wife and family (kids), we'll assume that he was at least 21 when he 
first got on the train. By 1983, he would have been 65 years old, would 
have qualified for a senior citizen fare of 10 cents, which he had paid 
in full at Kendall, and would have gotten off the train in Jamaica 
Plain. Now as for getting back. . .""In 1959, The Kingston Trio released a recording of the song. The name 
Walter A. was changed to George to avoid the problems that Holt 
experienced. Thus ended Walter O'Brien's claim to fame. [Reed's Web 
page does not say how or why the name was changed to Charlie.]?George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy Emeritus
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]

A Nice story, but not altogether true. For example, the Almanac Singers disbanded in the early 1940s, early in the war, although it is true that Bess Lomax Hawes (now living in Los Angeles) had been a member. Tony Saletan has recently been collecting Walter O'Brien campaign songs. An early sound truck recording of the song (probably by Arnold Berman, brother of Jackie Berman Steiner, NOT Pete and the Almanacs) can be found in SONGS FOR POLITICAL ACTION (Bear Family Records), disc. 9, cut 34. Will Holt's recording appeared on his album THE WORLD OF WILL HOLT (Coral 1957). And it is rather strange to see Pete Seeger referred to only  as a "guitar player." Subject:        Walter, then George and finally Charlie on the MTA From today's Boston GlobeA little history then on Charlie and his fateful ride on the MBTA, 
which we found fun.We tip our hat to the Web work of Jonathan D. Reed 
(http://web.mit.edu/jdreed/www/t/charlie.html), who graciously allowed 
us to reprint the following edited history."It seems that in the 1940s, the then-MTA fare-schedule was very 
complicated. At one time, the booklet that explained it was nine pages 
long. And rather than raise the overall fare, fare increases were 
implemented by means of an exit fare paid after exiting a train. Such 
fares were an easy way to boost revenue without having to modify all 
the turnstiles for the new rate."It just so happens that one of the key points of the platform of 
Walter A. O'Brien, a Progressive Party candidate for mayor of Boston, 
was to fight fare increases and make the fare schedule more uniform. 
Thus, in a weird way, Charlie was born."The text of the song was written in 1948 by Jacqueline Steiner (nee 
Berman) and Bess Lomax Hawes. It was one of seven songs written for 
O'Brien's campaign, each one emphasizing a key point of his platform."The song was recorded by a group called the Almanac Singers, whose 
members included Lomax Hawes, Steiner, and a young guitar player named 
Pete Seeger. One recording was made of each song, and they were 
broadcast from a sound truck that drove around the streets of Boston. 
This eventually earned O'Brien a $10 fine for disturbing the peace."A singer named Will Holt recorded the story of Charlie as a pop song 
for Coral Records after hearing an impromptu performance of the tune in 
a San Francisco coffeehouse by a former member of the Almanac Singers. 
The record company was astounded by a deluge of protests from Boston 
because the song made a hero out of a local "radical." During the 
McCarthy era of the 1950s, the Progressive Party became synonymous with 
the Communist Party, and since O'Brien was a Progressive, he was 
labeled a Communist. It is important to note that, contrary to popular 
belief, O'Brien was never on the Communist Party ticket. Nonetheless, 
Holt's record was hastily withdrawn."O'Brien lost the election. . . and moved back to his home state of 
Maine in 1957, where he became a school librarian and a bookstore 
owner. He died in July 1998."By the way, Charlie did get off the train. In the mid-1980s, the fare 
for senior citizens was reduced to 10 cents. And since Charlie had a 
wife and family (kids), we'll assume that he was at least 21 when he 
first got on the train. By 1983, he would have been 65 years old, would 
have qualified for a senior citizen fare of 10 cents, which he had paid 
in full at Kendall, and would have gotten off the train in Jamaica 
Plain. Now as for getting back. . .""In 1959, The Kingston Trio released a recording of the song. The name 
Walter A. was changed to George to avoid the problems that Holt 
experienced. Thus ended Walter O'Brien's claim to fame. [Reed's Web 
page does not say how or why the name was changed to Charlie.]?George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy Emeritus
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]

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Hi folks:I passed Fred McCormick's query to some folks knowledgeable in blues
matters; these are two replies.Peace,
Paul----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Spottswood" <[unmask]>John T has published two such calendars (I think the 2005 edition is
available), based on original artwork he acquired in Grafton that once
belonged to record distributor F J Boerner.  The Reynolds and Solomon Hill
discs are from sole surviving published Paramount pressings recovered in
the last 3-4 years.  The 1932 Memphis/Picaninny (sic) tracks were
republished on Varsity ca. 1939, and are in a number of collections.  It
may be that an original Champion pressing has recently been found, but the
music's not new.  "You Got to Have That Thing" is a misprint--the tune's a
cover of the Memphis JB's 1930 "Move That Thing."
Dick------ Original Message ------
From: Elijah WaldNot to muddy the waters, but....... Are you sure these are not new
alternate takes? Tefteller's last calendar had the very genuine debut of
an unreleased Tommy Johnson recording (of which Tefteller has two
takes), and he certainly has other newly discovered material -- though
he has provided some to Yazoo, and there may be overlap.

Hi folks:Two comments from Howard Rye:----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Rye" <[unmask]>
To: "tlist" <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: Recent blues discoveries> For reasons, which are too complicated to go into, the unwary buyer could
> be
> drawn into thinking that these are previously unreleased Paramounts.  They
> are not. All four have been made available on CD and the MJB tracks appear
> on a
> French Mercury LP, Tub Jug and Washboard Bands; Mercury 6332983.This French Mercury is a derivative of Riverside RM8802, a Dutch issue also
cloned on Pierre Cardin(France) PC93522, Music Parade(Italy) LEL201,
BASF(Germany) 298.485.I don't seem to have any Riverside RMs left in my collection (good
riddance!) so I can't date them closer than late 1960s without doing some
research.Much more relevanatly however, they are included in the Folkways History Of
Jazz: Bottle It Up And Go in Vol. 3 (FP57/FJ2803), You Got To Have That
Thing in Vol. 4 (FP59/FJ2804). These had already been issued when Frederic
Ramsey, Jr. published his Guide to Long Play Jazz Records in 1954.I guess all these will be from the Varsity 78 reissue. The Riverside may not
have copied the Folkways because this series was done by serious collectors.-----<<"You Got to Have That Thing" is a misprint--the tune's a cover of the
Memphis JB's 1930 "Move That Thing."
Dick >>The misprint, which is a funny thing to call it discographically speaking,
is apparently from Champion, as the Varsity is actually labelled "You
Gotta", etc.It's perhaps worth advising the original enquirer that these titles appear
on Folkways under Varsity's confusing pseudonym - Dallas Jug Band. One
reason for being pretty confident that the Varisity is the source, as Dick
says.Howard Rye
[unmask]

Hi folks:More from Dick Spottswood.Peace,
Paul----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Spottswood" <[unmask]>John's Tommy Johnson test pressing had two takes of an unpublished songs
made in 1930 for Paramount. He acquired it from Kurt Nauck's auction of
Pmt/QRS tests several years ago.  The Joe Reynolds disc was found in a
Nashville flea market (for 50 cents, if I remember) and I think someone in
Port Washington has the Solomon Hill disc.  Incidentally, I placed trhe F
W Boerner business in Grafton in error;  I should've said Port Washington.

Folks:In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came across the following three entries:Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for the first time collected.Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk song point of view?(Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so I cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)Ed

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Ed
Your message mentions three entries, but you only list two books.I don't have the 'Six Ballads', but if you're not in a hurry I can check it out at the London Library in a couple of weeks time.'Old Ballads from early Printed Copies' (J. Payne Collier, 1840) is typical of the Society's output in that the interest is historical/antiquarian rather than song/music/lore, if you see what I mean. The 25 pieces are all pretty early - 'reprinted from the original broadsides published at various dates between the middle of the sixteenth and the beginning of the seventeenth centuries' - and are mostly by named authors - John Skelton, Thomas Brice, Stephen Peele, etc. Many are political/religious. The material is important to the student of the broadside trade, and sixteenth century studies, but I would reckon of little direct interest to the folksong scholar. One piece in particular looks from its title to be of interest to you - 'Against Filthy Writing and Such Like Delighting', by Thomas Brice, but even this is pretty dull sermonizing stuff.
I would only buy it if it's cheap.
If you like, I could send you the contents list for your closer inspection.
Regards
Steve Roud--
Message sent with Supanet E-mail-----Original Message-----
From:     edward cray <[unmask]>
To:       [unmask]
Subject:  Opinions Sought> Folks:
>
> In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came across the following three entries:
>
> Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for the first time collected.
>
> Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
> Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.
>
> Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk song point of view?
>
> (Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so I cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)
>
> EdSignup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

Steve:Thank you for the bibliophilic response.  There ARE three books listed, the third being "Scottish Traditional Versions of Traditional Ballads."That remains a mystery.  If it is convenient, and I mean no more than five minutes straying from your course, you might see what the "Scottish" volume holds.  But please, do not put yourself out.You took care of the Collier while a kind book dealer in the UK listed the titles of the "Six Ballads with Burdens," and with that disabused me of the purchase.  Only one MIGHT have been traditional "The Big Sheep."Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 3:44 pm
Subject: Re: Opinions Sought> Ed
> Your message mentions three entries, but you only list two books.
>
> I don't have the 'Six Ballads', but if you're not in a hurry I can check
> it out at the London Library in a couple of weeks time.
>
> 'Old Ballads from early Printed Copies' (J. Payne Collier, 1840) is
> typical of the Society's output in that the interest is
> historical/antiquarian rather than song/music/lore, if you see what I
> mean. The 25 pieces are all pretty early - 'reprinted from the original
> broadsides published at various dates between the middle of the sixteenth
> and the beginning of the seventeenth centuries' - and are mostly by named
> authors - John Skelton, Thomas Brice, Stephen Peele, etc. Many are
> political/religious. The material is important to the student of the
> broadside trade, and sixteenth century studies, but I would reckon of
> little direct interest to the folksong scholar. One piece in particular
> looks from its title to be of interest to you - 'Against Filthy Writing
> and Such Like Delighting', by Thomas Brice, but even this is pretty dull
> sermonizing stuff.
> I would only buy it if it's cheap.
> If you like, I could send you the contents list for your closer inspection.
> Regards
> Steve Roud
>
> --
> Message sent with Supanet E-mail
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:     edward cray <[unmask]>
> To:       [unmask]
> Subject:  Opinions Sought
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came across
> the following three entries:
> >
> > Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for the
> first time collected.
> >
> > Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of
> Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
> > Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.
> >
> > Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk song
> point of view?
> >
> > (Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so I
> cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)
> >
> > Ed
>
>
> Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-
> bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

Ed,Scottish Traditional Versions of Ancient Ballads by James Henry Dixon
is on most of the standard bibliographies.  It purports to be a
selection from a manuscript of Peter Buchan (who was, I believe, still
alive in 1854). Buchan himself had a sad history, having been forced to
sell off his books in two separate auctions.  It is my recollection that
the authenticity of Buchan's material - generally, but not with respect
to this book - had been questioned by some scholars (I recall, but am
not sure, by Child himself) and staunchly defended by others.The book has about 81 pages ballads and intro, 26 pages text.
including ballads and notes.  Ballads are: Young Bondwell; Tam A Line;
Lord Burnett and Little Munsgrove; The Heir of Lynne; the Jolly Harper;
The Minister's Dochter o' Newarke; the Laird of Drum; Lord William; Love
Gregory [Lord Gregory version]; The Waters O Gramery; The Braes o
Yarrow; the Water O Wearie's Well; Ladye Diamond; Sir Hugh the Graeme;
Johnie O Cocklesmuir. I've missed one ballad.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 9/15/2004 7:35:31 PM >>>
Steve:Thank you for the bibliophilic response.  There ARE three books listed,
the third being "Scottish Traditional Versions of Traditional Ballads."That remains a mystery.  If it is convenient, and I mean no more than
five minutes straying from your course, you might see what the
"Scottish" volume holds.  But please, do not put yourself out.You took care of the Collier while a kind book dealer in the UK listed
the titles of the "Six Ballads with Burdens," and with that disabused me
of the purchase.  Only one MIGHT have been traditional "The Big Sheep."Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 3:44 pm
Subject: Re: Opinions Sought> Ed
> Your message mentions three entries, but you only list two books.
>
> I don't have the 'Six Ballads', but if you're not in a hurry I can
check
> it out at the London Library in a couple of weeks time.
>
> 'Old Ballads from early Printed Copies' (J. Payne Collier, 1840) is
> typical of the Society's output in that the interest is
> historical/antiquarian rather than song/music/lore, if you see what
I
> mean. The 25 pieces are all pretty early - 'reprinted from the
original
> broadsides published at various dates between the middle of the
sixteenth
> and the beginning of the seventeenth centuries' - and are mostly by
named
> authors - John Skelton, Thomas Brice, Stephen Peele, etc. Many are
> political/religious. The material is important to the student of the
> broadside trade, and sixteenth century studies, but I would reckon
of
> little direct interest to the folksong scholar. One piece in
particular
> looks from its title to be of interest to you - 'Against Filthy
Writing
> and Such Like Delighting', by Thomas Brice, but even this is pretty
dull
> sermonizing stuff.
> I would only buy it if it's cheap.
> If you like, I could send you the contents list for your closer
inspection.
> Regards
> Steve Roud
>
> --
> Message sent with Supanet E-mail
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:     edward cray <[unmask]>
> To:       [unmask]
> Subject:  Opinions Sought
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came
across
> the following three entries:
> >
> > Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for
the
> first time collected.
> >
> > Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of
> Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
> > Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.
> >
> > Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk
song
> point of view?
> >
> > (Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so
I
> cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)
> >
> > Ed
>
>
> Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-
> bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

Ed and all,My prior message was garbled. That's what happens when I try to cut and
paste when I am tired. (It also happens when I'm not tired. Oh well.)I am repeating the slightly cleaned up message here.Scottish Traditional Versions of Ancient Ballads by James Henry Dixon
is on most of the standard bibliographies.  It purports to be a
selection from a manuscript of Peter Buchan (who was, I believe, still
alive in 1845; he died in 1854). Buchan himself had a sad history,
having been forced to sell off his books in two separate auctions.  It
is my recollection that the authenticity of Buchan's material -
generally, but not with respect to this book - had been questioned by
some scholars (by Child himself, as I recall) and staunchly defended by
others.The book has about 81 pages 8 page intro, 73 pages ballads, and 26
pages of interesting notes. Ballads are: Young Bondwell; Tam A Line;
Lord Burnett and Little Munsgrove; The Heir of Lynne; the Jolly Harper;
The Minister's Dochter o' Newarke; the Laird of Drum; Lord William; Love
Gregory [Lord Gregory version]; The Waters O Gramery; The Braes o
Yarrow; the Water O Wearie's Well; Ladye Diamond; Sir Hugh the Graeme;
Johnie O Cocklesmuir. I've missed one ballad.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 9/15/2004 7:35:31 PM >>>
Steve:Thank you for the bibliophilic response.  There ARE three books listed,
the third being "Scottish Traditional Versions of Traditional Ballads."That remains a mystery.  If it is convenient, and I mean no more than
five minutes straying from your course, you might see what the
"Scottish" volume holds.  But please, do not put yourself out.You took care of the Collier while a kind book dealer in the UK listed
the titles of the "Six Ballads with Burdens," and with that disabused me
of the purchase.  Only one MIGHT have been traditional "The Big Sheep."Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 3:44 pm
Subject: Re: Opinions Sought> Ed
> Your message mentions three entries, but you only list two books.
>
> I don't have the 'Six Ballads', but if you're not in a hurry I can
check
> it out at the London Library in a couple of weeks time.
>
> 'Old Ballads from early Printed Copies' (J. Payne Collier, 1840) is
> typical of the Society's output in that the interest is
> historical/antiquarian rather than song/music/lore, if you see what
I
> mean. The 25 pieces are all pretty early - 'reprinted from the
original
> broadsides published at various dates between the middle of the
sixteenth
> and the beginning of the seventeenth centuries' - and are mostly by
named
> authors - John Skelton, Thomas Brice, Stephen Peele, etc. Many are
> political/religious. The material is important to the student of the
> broadside trade, and sixteenth century studies, but I would reckon
of
> little direct interest to the folksong scholar. One piece in
particular
> looks from its title to be of interest to you - 'Against Filthy
Writing
> and Such Like Delighting', by Thomas Brice, but even this is pretty
dull
> sermonizing stuff.
> I would only buy it if it's cheap.
> If you like, I could send you the contents list for your closer
inspection.
> Regards
> Steve Roud
>
> --
> Message sent with Supanet E-mail
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:     edward cray <[unmask]>
> To:       [unmask]
> Subject:  Opinions Sought
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came
across
> the following three entries:
> >
> > Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for
the
> first time collected.
> >
> > Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of
> Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
> > Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.
> >
> > Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk
song
> point of view?
> >
> > (Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so
I
> cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)
> >
> > Ed
>
>
> Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-
> bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

Lewis:Thank you -- for both the garbled and the unscrambled message.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 9:03 pm
Subject: Re: Opinions Sought> Ed and all,
>
> My prior message was garbled. That's what happens when I try to cut and
> paste when I am tired. (It also happens when I'm not tired. Oh well.)
>
> I am repeating the slightly cleaned up message here.
>
> Scottish Traditional Versions of Ancient Ballads by James Henry Dixon
> is on most of the standard bibliographies.  It purports to be a
> selection from a manuscript of Peter Buchan (who was, I believe, still
> alive in 1845; he died in 1854). Buchan himself had a sad history,
> having been forced to sell off his books in two separate auctions.  It
> is my recollection that the authenticity of Buchan's material -
> generally, but not with respect to this book - had been questioned by
> some scholars (by Child himself, as I recall) and staunchly defended by
> others.
>
> The book has about 81 pages 8 page intro, 73 pages ballads, and 26
> pages of interesting notes. Ballads are: Young Bondwell; Tam A Line;
> Lord Burnett and Little Munsgrove; The Heir of Lynne; the Jolly Harper;
> The Minister's Dochter o' Newarke; the Laird of Drum; Lord William; Love
> Gregory [Lord Gregory version]; The Waters O Gramery; The Braes o
> Yarrow; the Water O Wearie's Well; Ladye Diamond; Sir Hugh the Graeme;
> Johnie O Cocklesmuir. I've missed one ballad.
>
> Lew Becker
>
>
> >>> [unmask] 9/15/2004 7:35:31 PM >>>
> Steve:
>
> Thank you for the bibliophilic response.  There ARE three books listed,
> the third being "Scottish Traditional Versions of Traditional Ballads."
>
> That remains a mystery.  If it is convenient, and I mean no more than
> five minutes straying from your course, you might see what the
> "Scottish" volume holds.  But please, do not put yourself out.
>
> You took care of the Collier while a kind book dealer in the UK listed
> the titles of the "Six Ballads with Burdens," and with that disabused me
> of the purchase.  Only one MIGHT have been traditional "The Big Sheep."
>
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 3:44 pm
> Subject: Re: Opinions Sought
>
> > Ed
> > Your message mentions three entries, but you only list two books.
> >
> > I don't have the 'Six Ballads', but if you're not in a hurry I can
> check
> > it out at the London Library in a couple of weeks time.
> >
> > 'Old Ballads from early Printed Copies' (J. Payne Collier, 1840) is
> > typical of the Society's output in that the interest is
> > historical/antiquarian rather than song/music/lore, if you see what
> I
> > mean. The 25 pieces are all pretty early - 'reprinted from the
> original
> > broadsides published at various dates between the middle of the
> sixteenth
> > and the beginning of the seventeenth centuries' - and are mostly by
> named
> > authors - John Skelton, Thomas Brice, Stephen Peele, etc. Many are
> > political/religious. The material is important to the student of the
> > broadside trade, and sixteenth century studies, but I would reckon
> of
> > little direct interest to the folksong scholar. One piece in
> particular
> > looks from its title to be of interest to you - 'Against Filthy
> Writing
> > and Such Like Delighting', by Thomas Brice, but even this is pretty
> dull
> > sermonizing stuff.
> > I would only buy it if it's cheap.
> > If you like, I could send you the contents list for your closer
> inspection.
> > Regards
> > Steve Roud
> >
> > --
> > Message sent with Supanet E-mail
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:     edward cray <[unmask]>
> > To:       [unmask]
> > Subject:  Opinions Sought
> >
> > > Folks:
> > >
> > > In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came
> across
> > the following three entries:
> > >
> > > Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for
> the
> > first time collected.
> > >
> > > Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of
> > Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
> > > Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.
> > >
> > > Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk
> song
> > point of view?
> > >
> > > (Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so
> I
> > cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)
> > >
> > > Ed
> >
> >
> > Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-
> > bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail
>

Ed and all,Further on "Scottish Traditional Versions...":  Hustvedt, Ballad Books
and Ballad Men (1930) says, p.69-71, "Still bent on getting into print,
and meanwhile bedeviled by financial cares, he [Buchan] made up another
manuscript, consisting partly of unused things from his first
manuscript, partly of traditional ballads pickep up by blind Rankin, and
partly of stall ballads and other miscellaneous findings. Failing to
enlist a publisher for this new packet, Buchan was at length constrained
to dispose of it to agents for the Percy Society, which printed much of
it" in 1845. Hustvedt refers to the aspersions cast upon Buchan but
finds that his contemporaries had a good opinion of Buchan and that
Gavin Grieg's work tended to confirm the authenticity of Buchan's
earlier texts. "Child, to whom Buchan and his works were at first highly
repugnant, gradually came to take a more favorable view and in the end
accepted a large number of the originally proscribed ballads."  Buchan's
main works were: Scarce Ancient Ballads (1819), Gleanings of Scotch,
English, and Irish Old Ballads (1825), and Ancient Ballads and Songs off
the North of Scotland (1828).I bought a book which fortuitously contained at the end of it the 43
page catalogue of Buchan's second sale of his library in 1837. The
catalogue closes as follows: "P.S. Since the first announcement of the
sale of my library appeared in the newspapers, several interested
friends have been very anxious to know the cause of such our separation.
I beg therefore to state that at a more convenient season I will gratify
them in this modest request. In the meantime I would wish their
attendance at the place of sale where they would themselves or by proxy
purchase largely of the store." I find this incredibly sad.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 9/15/2004 7:35:31 PM >>>
Steve:Thank you for the bibliophilic response.  There ARE three books listed,
the third being "Scottish Traditional Versions of Traditional Ballads."That remains a mystery.  If it is convenient, and I mean no more than
five minutes straying from your course, you might see what the
"Scottish" volume holds.  But please, do not put yourself out.You took care of the Collier while a kind book dealer in the UK listed
the titles of the "Six Ballads with Burdens," and with that disabused me
of the purchase.  Only one MIGHT have been traditional "The Big Sheep."Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 3:44 pm
Subject: Re: Opinions Sought> Ed
> Your message mentions three entries, but you only list two books.
>
> I don't have the 'Six Ballads', but if you're not in a hurry I can
check
> it out at the London Library in a couple of weeks time.
>
> 'Old Ballads from early Printed Copies' (J. Payne Collier, 1840) is
> typical of the Society's output in that the interest is
> historical/antiquarian rather than song/music/lore, if you see what
I
> mean. The 25 pieces are all pretty early - 'reprinted from the
original
> broadsides published at various dates between the middle of the
sixteenth
> and the beginning of the seventeenth centuries' - and are mostly by
named
> authors - John Skelton, Thomas Brice, Stephen Peele, etc. Many are
> political/religious. The material is important to the student of the
> broadside trade, and sixteenth century studies, but I would reckon
of
> little direct interest to the folksong scholar. One piece in
particular
> looks from its title to be of interest to you - 'Against Filthy
Writing
> and Such Like Delighting', by Thomas Brice, but even this is pretty
dull
> sermonizing stuff.
> I would only buy it if it's cheap.
> If you like, I could send you the contents list for your closer
inspection.
> Regards
> Steve Roud
>
> --
> Message sent with Supanet E-mail
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:     edward cray <[unmask]>
> To:       [unmask]
> Subject:  Opinions Sought
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came
across
> the following three entries:
> >
> > Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for
the
> first time collected.
> >
> > Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of
> Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
> > Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.
> >
> > Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk
song
> point of view?
> >
> > (Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so
I
> cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)
> >
> > Ed
>
>
> Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-
> bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

Lew:I wonder if it would be possible to scan that second catalogue and post it on the Fresno site.  It would be of interest to know just what his library -- or that part of it -- contained.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: Opinions Sought> Ed and all,
>
> Further on "Scottish Traditional Versions...":  Hustvedt, Ballad Books
> and Ballad Men (1930) says, p.69-71, "Still bent on getting into print,
> and meanwhile bedeviled by financial cares, he [Buchan] made up another
> manuscript, consisting partly of unused things from his first
> manuscript, partly of traditional ballads pickep up by blind Rankin, and
> partly of stall ballads and other miscellaneous findings. Failing to
> enlist a publisher for this new packet, Buchan was at length constrained
> to dispose of it to agents for the Percy Society, which printed much of
> it" in 1845. Hustvedt refers to the aspersions cast upon Buchan but
> finds that his contemporaries had a good opinion of Buchan and that
> Gavin Grieg's work tended to confirm the authenticity of Buchan's
> earlier texts. "Child, to whom Buchan and his works were at first highly
> repugnant, gradually came to take a more favorable view and in the end
> accepted a large number of the originally proscribed ballads."  Buchan's
> main works were: Scarce Ancient Ballads (1819), Gleanings of Scotch,
> English, and Irish Old Ballads (1825), and Ancient Ballads and Songs off
> the North of Scotland (1828).
>
> I bought a book which fortuitously contained at the end of it the 43
> page catalogue of Buchan's second sale of his library in 1837. The
> catalogue closes as follows: "P.S. Since the first announcement of the
> sale of my library appeared in the newspapers, several interested
> friends have been very anxious to know the cause of such our separation.
> I beg therefore to state that at a more convenient season I will gratify
> them in this modest request. In the meantime I would wish their
> attendance at the place of sale where they would themselves or by proxy
> purchase largely of the store." I find this incredibly sad.
>
> Lew Becker
>
> >>> [unmask] 9/15/2004 7:35:31 PM >>>
> Steve:
>
> Thank you for the bibliophilic response.  There ARE three books listed,
> the third being "Scottish Traditional Versions of Traditional Ballads."
>
> That remains a mystery.  If it is convenient, and I mean no more than
> five minutes straying from your course, you might see what the
> "Scottish" volume holds.  But please, do not put yourself out.
>
> You took care of the Collier while a kind book dealer in the UK listed
> the titles of the "Six Ballads with Burdens," and with that disabused me
> of the purchase.  Only one MIGHT have been traditional "The Big Sheep."
>
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: [unmask]
> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 3:44 pm
> Subject: Re: Opinions Sought
>
> > Ed
> > Your message mentions three entries, but you only list two books.
> >
> > I don't have the 'Six Ballads', but if you're not in a hurry I can
> check
> > it out at the London Library in a couple of weeks time.
> >
> > 'Old Ballads from early Printed Copies' (J. Payne Collier, 1840) is
> > typical of the Society's output in that the interest is
> > historical/antiquarian rather than song/music/lore, if you see what
> I
> > mean. The 25 pieces are all pretty early - 'reprinted from the
> original
> > broadsides published at various dates between the middle of the
> sixteenth
> > and the beginning of the seventeenth centuries' - and are mostly by
> named
> > authors - John Skelton, Thomas Brice, Stephen Peele, etc. Many are
> > political/religious. The material is important to the student of the
> > broadside trade, and sixteenth century studies, but I would reckon
> of
> > little direct interest to the folksong scholar. One piece in
> particular
> > looks from its title to be of interest to you - 'Against Filthy
> Writing
> > and Such Like Delighting', by Thomas Brice, but even this is pretty
> dull
> > sermonizing stuff.
> > I would only buy it if it's cheap.
> > If you like, I could send you the contents list for your closer
> inspection.
> > Regards
> > Steve Roud
> >
> > --
> > Message sent with Supanet E-mail
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:     edward cray <[unmask]>
> > To:       [unmask]
> > Subject:  Opinions Sought
> >
> > > Folks:
> > >
> > > In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came
> across
> > the following three entries:
> > >
> > > Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for
> the
> > first time collected.
> > >
> > > Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of
> > Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
> > > Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.
> > >
> > > Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk
> song
> > point of view?
> > >
> > > (Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so
> I
> > cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)
> > >
> > > Ed
> >
> >
> > Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-
> > bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail
>

Fresno has the room and is willing...David>Lew:
>
>I wonder if it would be possible to scan that second catalogue and
>post it on the Fresno site.  It would be of interest to know just
>what his library -- or that part of it -- contained.
>
>Ed
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
>Date: Thursday, September 16, 2004 4:11 pm
>Subject: Re: Opinions Sought
>
>>  Ed and all,
>>
>>  Further on "Scottish Traditional Versions...":  Hustvedt, Ballad Books
>>  and Ballad Men (1930) says, p.69-71, "Still bent on getting into print,
>>  and meanwhile bedeviled by financial cares, he [Buchan] made up another
>>  manuscript, consisting partly of unused things from his first
>>  manuscript, partly of traditional ballads pickep up by blind Rankin, and
>>  partly of stall ballads and other miscellaneous findings. Failing to
>>  enlist a publisher for this new packet, Buchan was at length constrained
>>  to dispose of it to agents for the Percy Society, which printed much of
>>  it" in 1845. Hustvedt refers to the aspersions cast upon Buchan but
>>  finds that his contemporaries had a good opinion of Buchan and that
>>  Gavin Grieg's work tended to confirm the authenticity of Buchan's
>>  earlier texts. "Child, to whom Buchan and his works were at first highly
>>  repugnant, gradually came to take a more favorable view and in the end
>>  accepted a large number of the originally proscribed ballads."  Buchan's
>>  main works were: Scarce Ancient Ballads (1819), Gleanings of Scotch,
>>  English, and Irish Old Ballads (1825), and Ancient Ballads and Songs off
>>  the North of Scotland (1828).
>>
>>  I bought a book which fortuitously contained at the end of it the 43
>>  page catalogue of Buchan's second sale of his library in 1837. The
>>  catalogue closes as follows: "P.S. Since the first announcement of the
>>  sale of my library appeared in the newspapers, several interested
>>  friends have been very anxious to know the cause of such our separation.
>>  I beg therefore to state that at a more convenient season I will gratify
>>  them in this modest request. In the meantime I would wish their
>>  attendance at the place of sale where they would themselves or by proxy
>>  purchase largely of the store." I find this incredibly sad.
>>
>>  Lew Becker
>>
>>  >>> [unmask] 9/15/2004 7:35:31 PM >>>
>>  Steve:
>>
>>  Thank you for the bibliophilic response.  There ARE three books listed,
>>  the third being "Scottish Traditional Versions of Traditional Ballads."
>>
>>  That remains a mystery.  If it is convenient, and I mean no more than
>>  five minutes straying from your course, you might see what the
>>  "Scottish" volume holds.  But please, do not put yourself out.
>>
>>  You took care of the Collier while a kind book dealer in the UK listed
>>  the titles of the "Six Ballads with Burdens," and with that disabused me
>>  of the purchase.  Only one MIGHT have been traditional "The Big Sheep."
>>
>>  Ed
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: [unmask]
>>  Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2004 3:44 pm
>>  Subject: Re: Opinions Sought
>>
>>  > Ed
>>  > Your message mentions three entries, but you only list two books.
>>  >
>>  > I don't have the 'Six Ballads', but if you're not in a hurry I can
>>  check
>>  > it out at the London Library in a couple of weeks time.
>>  >
>>  > 'Old Ballads from early Printed Copies' (J. Payne Collier, 1840) is
>>  > typical of the Society's output in that the interest is
>>  > historical/antiquarian rather than song/music/lore, if you see what
>>  I
>>  > mean. The 25 pieces are all pretty early - 'reprinted from the
>>  original
>>  > broadsides published at various dates between the middle of the
>>  sixteenth
>>  > and the beginning of the seventeenth centuries' - and are mostly by
>>  named
>>  > authors - John Skelton, Thomas Brice, Stephen Peele, etc. Many are
>>  > political/religious. The material is important to the student of the
>>  > broadside trade, and sixteenth century studies, but I would reckon
>>  of
>>  > little direct interest to the folksong scholar. One piece in
>  > particular
>>  > looks from its title to be of interest to you - 'Against Filthy
>>  Writing
>>  > and Such Like Delighting', by Thomas Brice, but even this is pretty
>>  dull
>>  > sermonizing stuff.
>>  > I would only buy it if it's cheap.
>>  > If you like, I could send you the contents list for your closer
>>  inspection.
>>  > Regards
>>  > Steve Roud
>>  >
>>  > --
>>  > Message sent with Supanet E-mail
>>  >
>>  > -----Original Message-----
>>  > From:     edward cray <[unmask]>
>>  > To:       [unmask]
>>  > Subject:  Opinions Sought
>>  >
>>  > > Folks:
>>  > >
>>  > > In searching Abebooks.com for Percy Society publications, I came
>>  across
>>  > the following three entries:
>>  > >
>>  > > Old ballads from early printed copies of the utmost rarity. Now for
>>  the
>>  > first time collected.
>>  > >
>>  > > Six Ballads, with burdens. From MS. No. CLXVIII. in the library of
>>  > Corpus Christi College, Cambridge.
>>  > > Scottish traditional versions of ancient ballads.
>>  > >
>>  > > Does anybody have an opinion on the value of these from a folk
>>  song
>>  > point of view?
>>  > >
>>  > > (Our library here does not have the Percy Society publications so
>>  I
>>  > cannot easily check without resorting to interlibrary loan.)
>>  > >
>>  > > Ed
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-
>>  > bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail
>>--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---