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On 2004/08/06 at 09:36:50PM -0400, Karen Kobela wrote:        Please don't send e-mails in HTML only.  (Ideally, please send
them in plain text (ASCII) only.  Many modern e-mail programs refuse to
process or display HTML, and only display the plain text.  Posting or
reading e-mail with HTML-capable programs leaves you open to virus infections.        Some mailing lists absolutely *refuse* to accept e-mail with
*any* HTML content -- let alone *all* HTML.        Here is a web page which will help you to figure out how to
disable HTML sending in your own e-mail client (if possible).        <http://www.rrtc.net/avoiding-html/>        And (a link from that page) one specific to hotmail, which
appears to be what you are using:        <http://research.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/hotmailstop.html>        I've got nothing here to reply to as processed by my e-mail
program.  Let me read in the raw HTML and edit it so you can see how
ugly it looks (and how hard it is to read without a HTML program
cleaning it up for you.        The three changes are:1)      All '<' become '{'2)      All '>' become '}'3)      All '&' become '~'This keeps your e-mail program from recognizing it as HTML and prettying
it up.        Please *try* to read it as it shows below so you can see what
the rest of us (those who are security-conscious) have to deal with.        My apologies to the rest of Ballad-L -- but this may serve as a
warning to others to check what their e-mail programs are sending.        Thank you,
                DoN. ======================================================================
{html}{div style='background-color:'}{DIV class=RTE}
{P}Bill,{/P}
{P}I'd like~nbsp; Folk Songs of the Upper Thames, please.~nbsp; Please e-mail me if this is available and I will send a check.{/P}
{P}Thanks,{/P}
{P}karen kobela{/P}
{P}{A href="mailto:[unmask]"[unmask]
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;From: Bill McCarthy ~lt;[unmask];
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars ~lt;[unmask];
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;To: [unmask]
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Subject: Re: Unexpurgated Folk Songs of Men
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:47:23 -0400
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Friends,
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;I have three books in Xerox form that I no longer need.~nbsp;~nbsp;I will ship
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;them,
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;post-paid, to the first people who claim them:
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Alfred Williams: Folk Songs of the Upper Thames, $10.
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Geo. P. Jackson:~nbsp;~nbsp;Spiritual Folksongs of Early America,~nbsp;~nbsp;$10.
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Gavin Greig and Alexander Keith:~nbsp;~nbsp;Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;and
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Ballad Airs, $12
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Please note that these are Xerox copies.~nbsp;~nbsp;Two, at least, are in
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;public domain.
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;Bill McCarthy
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;At 02:43 AM 8/6/2004 -0500, Andrew Brown wrote:
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;I see there were some recent posts about this notorious LP which
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;continues
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;to cause much confusion 40+ years after its initial pressing.
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;The known "anonymous" performers on the LP include: Lightnin'
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;Hopkins (The
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;Dirty Dozens), Mance Lipscomb, Buster Pickens, John Lomax, Jr., Ed
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;Badeaux,
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;and Lord Alfred, a British comedian living in Texas at the time.
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;There are at least two different pressings of this LP. The original
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;pressing is on a plain B~amp;W label with no label name. The second and
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;better-
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;known pressing is on a red and black label that says "Raglan
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;Records" at
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;the top. I would be interested in knowing if the Raglan sleeve
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;differs from
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;the original sleeve, which is very Folkways-esque (heavy black
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;cardboard
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;with the title and blurb printed on tan paper and pasted on the
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;front.)
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;Mack McCormick may or may not have the original tapes to this LP.
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;At any
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;rate the possibility of any kind of reissue ('legal' or otherwise)
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;seems
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;remote at this point.
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;However, I have a mint copy burned to CD-R which I will gladly copy
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;for
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;free and mail to anyone who requests it (off-list please). The only
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;downside is that the CD-R it not banded like the LP, thus it only
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;plays two
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;tracks (side one and side two).
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;--Andrew Brown
{DIV}{/DIV}~gt;~gt;(Houston TX)
{DIV}{/DIV}{/div}{br clear=all}{hr} {a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMAENUS/2731??PS=47575"}Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!{/a} {/html} ======================================================================--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I'm writing a short article on ballads.  Although it has an American
focus, I feel that it should provide some general background.World-wide, what is the earliest date we have for narrative poetry
that might have been sung?Earliest date for narrative poetry for which there is evidence of singing?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 8/7/04, John Garst wrote:>I'm writing a short article on ballads.  Although it has an American
>focus, I feel that it should provide some general background.
>
>World-wide, what is the earliest date we have for narrative poetry
>that might have been sung?
>
>Earliest date for narrative poetry for which there is evidence of singing?This is harder than it sounds. Take as an example the Gilgamesh
epic. The original Sumerian may well have been sung, 5000 years
ago. But we know it mostly in Akkadian translation. That probably
wasn't.Homer of course was sung, starting at least 2700 years ago.There are several pieces in the Bible which are clearly poetic,
and which are designed to be sung. The earliest in time of
composition, and the earliest to be fully narrative, may be
the Song of Deborah (Judges 5); likely date is c. 1150 B.C.E.
(a fundamentalist would say earlier).There are Chinese records from before that, but since they are
in an ideographic writing style, I don't think we could prove
either way whether they were sung.I assume you aren't interested in Vedic hymns.Accounts of narrative singing precede the actual songs, of course.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Hi!        Here are the latest search results from Ebay.        SONGSTERS        6916767151 - THE SWEET SONGSTER BOOK, 1854, $26 (end Aug-09-04
12:45:40 PDT)        3740379382 - Dainty Irene Myers Songster, 1903, $1.49 (ends
Aug-10-04 15:00:07 PDT)        3692467139 - Lookout Mountain No. 1 Songster, 188?, $5 (ends
Aug-11-04 11:01:55 PDT)        3692623599 - Lookout Mountain No. Two Songster, 188?, $6.99 (ends
Aug-12-04 09:10:18 PDT)        2261548789 - WRECK OF THE TITANIC SONGSTER, $15 (ends Aug-15-04
10:54:12 PDT)        6917443663 - Universal Songster, 1834, $7 (ends Aug-15-04 18:07:42
PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        6916515597 - SONGS OF WORK & FREEDOM by Fowke & Glazer, 1960,
$4.99 (ends Aug-08-04 10:15:12 PDT) also 6917279798 - $9.95 (ends
Aug-13-04 11:45:00 PDT)        6916515604 - EIGHTY ENGLISH FOLK SONGS FROM APPALACHIANS by Sharp,
1968 edition, $3.99 (ends Aug-08-04 10:15:14 PDT)        6916757390 - The Scottish Folksinger by Hall & Buchan, 1973,
$12.50 (ends Aug-09-04 11:56:15 PDT)        3740244679 - The Nova Scotia Song Collection by MacGillivray,
$29 (ends Aug-09-04 20:13:52 PDT)        6916307007 - BALLADS, SONGS, AND RHYMES OF EAST ANGLIA by Harvey,
1936, 4.99 GBP (ends Aug-10-04 05:53:12 PDT)        6916932351 - American Murder Ballads by Burt, 1964, $4.99 (ends
Aug-10-04 10:15:07 PDT)        6917006244 - Roxburghe Ballads, 1847, $40 (ends Aug-10-04
16:46:03 PDT)        6914946383 - The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music by
Simpson, 1966, $19.99 (ends Aug-10-04 18:50:00 PDT)        6917250395 - OLD TIME SONGS AND POETRY OF NEWFOUNDLAND by Doyle,
1966 edition, $6 (ends Aug-11-04 19:36:09 PDT)        6917333998 - IRISH MINSTRELSY by Sparling, 1888 edition, $19
(ends Aug-12-04 09:24:45 PDT)        6917327027 - THE PENGUIN BOOK OF CANADIAN FOLK SONGS by Fowke,
1973, $9.99 (ends Aug-12-04 19:30:00 PDT)        6906115064 - A Family Heritage by Fowke & Rahn, 1994, $9.99 (ends
Aug-13-04)        6917307667 - The Idiom Of The People: English Traditional Verse
by Reeves, 1958, 4.99 GBP (ends Aug-15-04 06:44:23 PDT)        6917407939 - DOWIE DENS O' YARROW, $9.98 w/reserve (ends
Aug-15-04 14:10:33 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        4028301054 - THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH BALLADS (THE CHILD BALLADS)
VOL. 4, LP, MacColl & Lloyd, $9.99 (ends Aug-08-04 12:27:40 PDT)        4028549984 - Celtic Spirits and Songs of Nova Scotia, VHS, $15
(ends Aug-09-04 20:07:55 PDT)        4029360277 - THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH BALLADS (THE CHILD BALLADS)
Vol. 2, LP, MacColl & Lloyd, $2.98 (ends Aug-14-04 10:56:11 PDT)        6917156336 - EFDSS Folk Music Journal, 1972-76, 4 issues, 0.50
GBP (ends Aug-14-04 12:05:44 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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1. Focal Point
2. KDHXCA

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Hi folks:I did a Google search on "ergot hallucinations" and got back quite a range
of hits, from popular writings to academic. Try it and see. In particular, I
recommend:http://193.132.193.215/eman2/fsheet14.aspwhich states that the alkaloids in ergot can, if the ergot ferments, produce
lysergic acid, which causes hallucinations. The hallucinations in the French
epidemic (which I incorrectly placed in the 1940s; it was actually 1951) are
well-documented.Not that having one's willy fall off wouldn't be upsetting too.Peace,
Paul

There was an interesting theory published over a decade ago that tried to
account for the hallucinations rife in Salem, Mass resulting in the
witchcraft hysteria, as due to ergot from a diet high in bread made from
mouldy rye flour.  That season was particularly wet and rainy.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Campin" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: Playlist of non-representational folk songs and ballads> > Several weeks ago, someone brought up Leonard Cohen's song "Suzanne" as
> > an example of how contemporary acoustic song has taken a turn toward the
> > non-represenational and obscurantist. My rejoinder was that traditional
> > songs have some pretty strange stuff in them too, even if you allow for
> > mis-transmission of material.  The idea gestated for a while, and
> > crystallized into this program; I present the playlist [...]
> > Jean Ritchie: "Nottamun Town" [...]
> > it's been suggested that the words of this totally bizarre song
> > are a political allegory, but no one can figure out to what. also
> > that they were written by a psychotic. my own theory is that they
> > describe a town in the grip of ergotism, a disease caused by a
> > fungus that infects grain. people who ingest the fungus essentially
> > go on a bad lsd trip -- lsd was originally derived from compounds
> > present in ergot, and the 'erg' in 'lysergic acid diethylamide', or
> > lsd, signifies ergot. the epidemiology, or pharmacology, of folk
> > music is a subject that has always fascinated me]
>
> That's an urban legend.  Ergot provides the raw material from which
> LSD is made, but it contains no LSD nor any other psychedelic and
> its effects are nothing like those of LSD.  Ergot poisoning outbreaks
> mainly led to a lot of people having their extremities fall off with
> gangrene.
>
> The imagery in "Nottamun Town" is also nothing like anything inspired
> by LSD that I know of.  It's a carefully constructed series of logical
> impossibilities: games with logic aren't the usual sort of thing you
> think of while tripping (and especially not while worrying that your
> willy might turn black and fall off, as in ergotism).
>
> (My own speculation on psychedelic imagery from art works of the past
> relates to the Book of Kells.  It was compiled at Iona Abbey.  One
> thing the guidebooks don't tell you is that the field beside the abbey
> is heaving with _Psilocybe semilanceata_ mushrooms every autumn; a
> very casual ten-minute search will find enough for a trip.  Now you
> know where those weird multicoloured animals and luminous curlicues
> came from).
>
>
> > Art Galbraith: "Flowers of Edinburgh" ("Dixie Blossoms", Rounder)
> > [crooked and crookeder; perhaps the world-champion crooked tune, at
> > least the way art plays it. gordon mccann is the only human on earth
> > who can follow him; julie henigan once transcribed the piece for
> > come for to sing magazine. it took her two weeks]
>
> Bruce Molsky plays this too - is it basically the same version?  So
> does Richard Blaustein, who some people on this list must know,  I've
> heard both of them play it in pub sessions over here, and both times
> they were most of the way through the first part before I recognized
> it at all.
>
>
> "The Pirnie-Taed Loonie" is a wondrous piece of nonsense from
> north-east Scotland in much the same spirit as your examples, but
> given that Doric Scots all sounds like gibberish to an American
> audience no matter what the content, there wouldn't be a lot of
> point in broadcasting it over there.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131
6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data &
recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro,
Embro".
> ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please.
<---
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 2004/08/09 at 02:03:23AM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> Several weeks ago, someone brought up Leonard Cohen's song "Suzanne" as an
> example of how contemporary acoustic song has taken a turn toward the
> non-represenational and obscurantist. My rejoinder was that traditional
> songs have some pretty strange stuff in them too, even if you allow for
> mis-transmission of material.        [ ... ]> Pete Seeger: "The Elephant" ("Birds, Beasts, Bugs and Fishes",
> Smithsonian/Folkways)
>  [the words, in their entirety -- but leaving out line repetitions -- go:
> 'don't sleep, don't sleep, don't sleep, the elephant, don't sleep/'cause if
> you sleep i'm gonna knock out your back teeth, don't sleep'. kids songs are
> some of the weirdest]        If you consider the appearance of the elephant, it will seem
that the tusks are grown from the back of the upper jaw, and thus could
be considered the elephant's "back teeth".  They have always had value,
so I think that is the significance of this song.  If it originates from
elephant country, and has been translated, it probably made excellent
sense in situ.        Others have already well covered everything else where I might
have wanted to make a comment.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

>Even "Nottamun Town," perhaps the most obscure of the ballad section is,
>by many, including the lovely Ms Ritchie, supposed to have once been clear
>and become deeply zersung.  Maybe the exception, though.
>
>Abby SaleI'm afraid that I cannot accept this.  As someone else pointed out,
the impossibilities are logically constructed.  Further, they
permeate the whole song.  This was written pretty much as it has been
recovered, always "backwards."--
john garst    [unmask]

>>Even "Nottamun Town," perhaps the most obscure of the ballad section is,
>>by many, including the lovely Ms Ritchie, supposed to have once been clear
>>and become deeply zersung.  Maybe the exception, though.
>>
>>Abby Sale
>
>I'm afraid that I cannot accept this.  As someone else pointed out,
>the impossibilities are logically constructed.  Further, they
>permeate the whole song.  This was written pretty much as it has been
>recovered, always "backwards."
>
>john garst    [unmask]Further, it is but one of a number of contradictory songs of its
class, the members of which I can't enumerate off the top of my head,
but I do recall a title, "Paddy Backwards," and some opening lines of
another'Twas midnight on the ocean deep,
The sun was shining bright....--
john garst    [unmask]

>Don't we assume that almost all narrative poetry was sung at one time?...
>
>Sadie DamascusI agree.  I was asking about early instances of documentation.John

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]><<Further, it is but one of a number of contradictory songs of its
class, the members of which I can't enumerate off the top of my head,
but I do recall a title, "Paddy Backwards," and some opening lines of
another'Twas midnight on the ocean deep,
The sun was shining bright....>>That one's usually known as "Barefoot Boy with Boots On" or "Ain't We
Crazy". It was for just such songs as this (and Nottamun Town) that we
included in the Ballad Index the keyword "paradox".Peace,
Paul

Paul Stamler:You might add "Rooty Toot Toot for the Moon" by Greg Brown -- in RUS,
with an additional stanza by Dick Pinney that some might say makes a
little too much sense.  %^)--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Remorse: the regret that one waited so long to do it.  :||

Lying Songs / paradoxes / songs of marvels / impossibilities etc.
abound in 17th century broadsides. On a quick count 13 in Pepys, at least
4 in Roxburgh and sundry others in Firth, Douce, Euing etc., a number of
which remained in popular tradition upto present day.
SteveG

"Down in a Coal Mine" appears to have been written and composed in
1872 by J. B. Geoghegan, as noted here in previous messages.  From
WWW sources, I took it that Geoghegan was British and that this was a
music hall piece.  I was surprised, in browsing through Fowke and
Glazer, Songs of Work and Protest (1973 Dover reprint of 1960 "Songs
of Work and Freedom"), to read their note on this song.*****
"Down in a Coal Mine" was originally a stage song, written by the
American comedian, J. B. Geohegan *(sic, but spelled "Geoghegan" in
the composer slot with the music, which is common time rather than
the triple time of some other versions)*, in 1872.  It was soon
adopted by the coal miners and became the best known of all miners'
songs, particularly in the anthracite fields of Pennsylvania.  It
also crossed over to Britain where it became widely popular and is
still sung today.  There the tune is usually changed to that of the
old Irish song, "The Roving Journeyman."
*****Are these statements correct?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

A.L. Lloyd's book, Come All Ye Bold Miners, lists two versions of Down
in a Coal Mine. Of version 1, he says, "Text from a broadside published
by H. Disley, 57 High Street, St. Giles's, London c. 1865. The song was
remade for stage performance by J.B. Geoghegan in 1872. See George
Korson, Minstrels of the Mine Patch, pp.277-78 for an American
version."Of version #2, Lloyd says, Text mainly from george bailey, ex miner, of
Bentley, Doncaster, May 1851. Tune and missing fragments from James
Hedley, of Aberavon." The two versions are different but the chorus is
the same.Korson's version, however, is a lot closer to Lloyd's version #2.
Korson says of his version, at p. 270, "...one has a difficult time
convincing the average old timer that it isn't native. However, it was
originally a stage song composed by one J.B. Geoghegan in 1872, when it
was first published by S. Brainard's Sons."Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 8/10/2004 2:06:14 PM >>>
"Down in a Coal Mine" appears to have been written and composed in
1872 by J. B. Geoghegan, as noted here in previous messages.  From
WWW sources, I took it that Geoghegan was British and that this was a
music hall piece.  I was surprised, in browsing through Fowke and
Glazer, Songs of Work and Protest (1973 Dover reprint of 1960 "Songs
of Work and Freedom"), to read their note on this song.*****
"Down in a Coal Mine" was originally a stage song, written by the
American comedian, J. B. Geohegan *(sic, but spelled "Geoghegan" in
the composer slot with the music, which is common time rather than
the triple time of some other versions)*, in 1872.  It was soon
adopted by the coal miners and became the best known of all miners'
songs, particularly in the anthracite fields of Pennsylvania.  It
also crossed over to Britain where it became widely popular and is
still sung today.  There the tune is usually changed to that of the
old Irish song, "The Roving Journeyman."
*****Are these statements correct?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Just to correct one statement in my prior email. The text for Lloyd's
version no. 2 is from an ex miner in 1951, not 1851.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 8/10/2004 2:06:14 PM >>>
"Down in a Coal Mine" appears to have been written and composed in
1872 by J. B. Geoghegan, as noted here in previous messages.  From
WWW sources, I took it that Geoghegan was British and that this was a
music hall piece.  I was surprised, in browsing through Fowke and
Glazer, Songs of Work and Protest (1973 Dover reprint of 1960 "Songs
of Work and Freedom"), to read their note on this song.*****
"Down in a Coal Mine" was originally a stage song, written by the
American comedian, J. B. Geohegan *(sic, but spelled "Geoghegan" in
the composer slot with the music, which is common time rather than
the triple time of some other versions)*, in 1872.  It was soon
adopted by the coal miners and became the best known of all miners'
songs, particularly in the anthracite fields of Pennsylvania.  It
also crossed over to Britain where it became widely popular and is
still sung today.  There the tune is usually changed to that of the
old Irish song, "The Roving Journeyman."
*****Are these statements correct?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Joseph B. Geoghegan died in Jan 1889. In 1886 he wrote a song 'England is
England Still'. Lyrics attributed to him in Kilgarriff 'Sing us one of the
Old Songs, A Guide to Popular Song, 1860 to 1920 ISBN 0-19-816657-5'
include 'The Frenchman' 1878, It's Really a Dreadful Affair (Music Harry
Liston), Roger Ruff or A Drop of Good Beer' 1860, They All have a Mate but
me' 1870. I have already given others I have sheet music to in a previous
posting. He definitely wrote a lot of local material in Sheffield which
appeared on local broadsides. The placing him as an American comedian must
have been a false assumption. It is possible he toured in America like
many other British Music hall artistes. It is also possible there were
several J.B. Geoghegans!
SteveG

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 10 August 2004 19:06
Subject: Down in a Coal Mine> "Down in a Coal Mine" appears to have been written and composed in
> 1872 by J. B. Geoghegan, as noted here in previous messages.  From
> WWW sources, I took it that Geoghegan was British and that this was a
> music hall piece.  I was surprised, in browsing through Fowke and
> Glazer, Songs of Work and Protest (1973 Dover reprint of 1960 "Songs
> of Work and Freedom"), to read their note on this song.
>
> *****
> "Down in a Coal Mine" was originally a stage song, written by the
> American comedian, J. B. Geohegan *(sic, but spelled "Geoghegan" in
> the composer slot with the music, which is common time rather than
> the triple time of some other versions)*, in 1872.  It was soon
> adopted by the coal miners and became the best known of all miners'
> songs, particularly in the anthracite fields of Pennsylvania.  It
> also crossed over to Britain where it became widely popular and is
> still sung today.  There the tune is usually changed to that of the
> old Irish song, "The Roving Journeyman."
> *****
>
> Are these statements correct?There is no doubt that Joseph B Geoghegan was British, (born Barton upon Irwell, Lancashire, 1816,
died in Bolton, Lancashire, January  1889). He seems to have worked in music hall most of his life;
as songwriter, performer, "chairman" and hall manager. I don't know why Fowke and Glazer thought him
American (I haven't seen that book).Contemporary sheet music is in 2/4. See Levy  (Jersey City, 1872):http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record=132.107.001&pages=4and British Library   (London, 1873):http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/personalisation/object.cfm?uid=015HZZ00001778OU00020003

John, Lewis et al:The song is also found in Korson's _Pennsylvania Songs and Legends,_ pp. 373, where he notes  it was "originally a stage song published in 1872 and long poipular in the anthracite region...probably the best-known mining song in the country."  Another text is in Korson's _Coal Dust on the Fiddle,_ pp. 153-4, which, mirable dictu, was sung by J.Y. Davis of Briceville, Tennessee, on 3/20/40, who had learned it "as a boy in South Wales."Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 12:01 pm
Subject: Re: Down in a Coal Mine> A.L. Lloyd's book, Come All Ye Bold Miners, lists two versions of Down
> in a Coal Mine. Of version 1, he says, "Text from a broadside published
> by H. Disley, 57 High Street, St. Giles's, London c. 1865. The song was
> remade for stage performance by J.B. Geoghegan in 1872. See George
> Korson, Minstrels of the Mine Patch, pp.277-78 for an American
> version."
>
> Of version #2, Lloyd says, Text mainly from george bailey, ex miner, of
> Bentley, Doncaster, May 1851. Tune and missing fragments from James
> Hedley, of Aberavon." The two versions are different but the chorus is
> the same.
>
> Korson's version, however, is a lot closer to Lloyd's version #2.
> Korson says of his version, at p. 270, "...one has a difficult time
> convincing the average old timer that it isn't native. However, it was
> originally a stage song composed by one J.B. Geoghegan in 1872, when it
> was first published by S. Brainard's Sons."
>
> Lew Becker
>
> >>> [unmask] 8/10/2004 2:06:14 PM >>>
> "Down in a Coal Mine" appears to have been written and composed in
> 1872 by J. B. Geoghegan, as noted here in previous messages.  From
> WWW sources, I took it that Geoghegan was British and that this was a
> music hall piece.  I was surprised, in browsing through Fowke and
> Glazer, Songs of Work and Protest (1973 Dover reprint of 1960 "Songs
> of Work and Freedom"), to read their note on this song.
>
> *****
> "Down in a Coal Mine" was originally a stage song, written by the
> American comedian, J. B. Geohegan *(sic, but spelled "Geoghegan" in
> the composer slot with the music, which is common time rather than
> the triple time of some other versions)*, in 1872.  It was soon
> adopted by the coal miners and became the best known of all miners'
> songs, particularly in the anthracite fields of Pennsylvania.  It
> also crossed over to Britain where it became widely popular and is
> still sung today.  There the tune is usually changed to that of the
> old Irish song, "The Roving Journeyman."
> *****
>
> Are these statements correct?
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

While in one of my insomniac nights recently I found myself wondering if there were a good biography of Francis James Child. I know he was of "humble origins", the son of a sailmaker, I believe, sent to Boston Latin school by a wealthy benefactor and later to Harvard. I know he married into the rather interesting Sedgwick family and is buried beneath a pretty unprepossessing stone at one of the outer circles of the Sedgwick Pie plot in Stockbridge. But what of between? Anyone have any suggestions?Mary Stafford
[unmask]

Mary Ellen Brown is doing extenisve work on Child.  You could contact her at [unmask]        Marge -----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Mary Stafford
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 5:32 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Child Biography?While in one of my insomniac nights recently I found myself wondering if there were a good biography of Francis James Child. I know he was of "humble origins", the son of a sailmaker, I believe, sent to Boston Latin school by a wealthy benefactor and later to Harvard. I know he married into the rather interesting Sedgwick family and is buried beneath a pretty unprepossessing stone at one of the outer circles of the Sedgwick Pie plot in Stockbridge. But what of between? Anyone have any suggestions?Mary Stafford
[unmask]

Closer to "home," evidently the "earliest date" for the singing of
narrative (or any other) songs must depend upon the movement of a
language's rhythm. In the case of English songs, they could not possibly
have been sung in their present recognisable form at a time preceding
the entry of the French language into modern English as used by the
people who sang and were sung to. But then you have interesting hybrids.
One can imagine a "pan-Eurotroubadour rhythm" that was preferred across
the continent, but which suited some languages better than others. I
gather (but don't quote me) that the reason for some Hungarian folk song
lyrics don't quite fit naturally into the tune is that the music came
from a different (older) source. Perhaps the best example is the refrain
to the song with the same title: Vir?om, vir?om. If you want to learn
Hungarian, one of the nice easy things (!) is that every word is
stressed on the first syllable. However, the first time vir?om is sung,
the stress is on the third syllable and the second time on the second.
As this is the refrain, there is no excuse that the words of a
particular verse "don't fit the tune."This may be straying a little, but not a lottle.AndyRobert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> On 8/7/04, John Garst wrote:
>
> >I'm writing a short article on ballads.  Although it has an American
> >focus, I feel that it should provide some general background.
> >
> >World-wide, what is the earliest date we have for narrative poetry
> >that might have been sung?
> >
> >Earliest date for narrative poetry for which there is evidence of singing?
>
> This is harder than it sounds. Take as an example the Gilgamesh
> epic. The original Sumerian may well have been sung, 5000 years
> ago. But we know it mostly in Akkadian translation. That probably
> wasn't.
>
> Homer of course was sung, starting at least 2700 years ago.
>
> There are several pieces in the Bible which are clearly poetic,
> and which are designed to be sung. The earliest in time of
> composition, and the earliest to be fully narrative, may be
> the Song of Deborah (Judges 5); likely date is c. 1150 B.C.E.
> (a fundamentalist would say earlier).
>
> There are Chinese records from before that, but since they are
> in an ideographic writing style, I don't think we could prove
> either way whether they were sung.
>
> I assume you aren't interested in Vedic hymns.
>
> Accounts of narrative singing precede the actual songs, of course.
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

The only problem with your thesis is that a text is not immutably wed to one tune.  It is generally the case that any given folksong text may have multiple tune settings, and vice-versa.        Marge -----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Andy Rouse
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2004 3:37 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: AntiquityCloser to "home," evidently the "earliest date" for the singing of
narrative (or any other) songs must depend upon the movement of a
language's rhythm. In the case of English songs, they could not possibly
have been sung in their present recognisable form at a time preceding
the entry of the French language into modern English as used by the
people who sang and were sung to. But then you have interesting hybrids.
One can imagine a "pan-Eurotroubadour rhythm" that was preferred across
the continent, but which suited some languages better than others. I
gather (but don't quote me) that the reason for some Hungarian folk song
lyrics don't quite fit naturally into the tune is that the music came
from a different (older) source. Perhaps the best example is the refrain
to the song with the same title: Vir?om, vir?om. If you want to learn
Hungarian, one of the nice easy things (!) is that every word is
stressed on the first syllable. However, the first time vir?om is sung,
the stress is on the third syllable and the second time on the second.
As this is the refrain, there is no excuse that the words of a
particular verse "don't fit the tune."This may be straying a little, but not a lottle.AndyRobert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> On 8/7/04, John Garst wrote:
>
> >I'm writing a short article on ballads.  Although it has an American
> >focus, I feel that it should provide some general background.
> >
> >World-wide, what is the earliest date we have for narrative poetry
> >that might have been sung?
> >
> >Earliest date for narrative poetry for which there is evidence of singing?
>
> This is harder than it sounds. Take as an example the Gilgamesh
> epic. The original Sumerian may well have been sung, 5000 years
> ago. But we know it mostly in Akkadian translation. That probably
> wasn't.
>
> Homer of course was sung, starting at least 2700 years ago.
>
> There are several pieces in the Bible which are clearly poetic,
> and which are designed to be sung. The earliest in time of
> composition, and the earliest to be fully narrative, may be
> the Song of Deborah (Judges 5); likely date is c. 1150 B.C.E.
> (a fundamentalist would say earlier).
>
> There are Chinese records from before that, but since they are
> in an ideographic writing style, I don't think we could prove
> either way whether they were sung.
>
> I assume you aren't interested in Vedic hymns.
>
> Accounts of narrative singing precede the actual songs, of course.
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."

Mary,Under separate cover I have attached a small PDF of the bio of Professor
Child drawn directly from "The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (digital
edition)".  The bio was written by Child's prot??George Lyman Kittredge
(of Shakespeare fame) and included with Part 10 or the ESPB when it was
published posthumously.You can also find some nice bio materials and recollections of Professor
Child in the on-line editions of "Notes and Queries".I hope this helps.David M. Kleiman
President & CEO
Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.
"The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (digital editon)"
"Early Ballad Collections of James Maidment (digital editon)"
"Northern Garlands by Joseph Ritson (digital editon)"
212-721-9382
www.heritagemuse.com-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On
Behalf Of Mary Stafford
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 6:32 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Child Biography?While in one of my insomniac nights recently I found myself wondering if
there were a good biography of Francis James Child. I know he was of "humble
origins", the son of a sailmaker, I believe, sent to Boston Latin school by
a wealthy benefactor and later to Harvard. I know he married into the rather
interesting Sedgwick family and is buried beneath a pretty unprepossessing
stone at one of the outer circles of the Sedgwick Pie plot in Stockbridge.
But what of between? Anyone have any suggestions?Mary Stafford
[unmask]

One perhaps for John Moulden to solve, But open to anyone who can supply
info or opinion. References to this ballad often quote Bunting p48 as a
version, naming the highwayman as Charley Reilly. Unfortunately Bunting
only gives the tune. I'm trying to trace the original events and date
them. According to older forms of the many varied broadside versions the
highwayman was born in Newry, robbed in London, was chased to Ireland by
Fielding's gang and then caught and hung on St Stephen's Green, Dublin. I
would guess from details in different versions the execution probably
occurred around 1770.
     An associated ballad 'The Flash Lad' has a few crossover verses
with 'Wild and Wicked Youth', but has separate origins and dates back to
Claude duval's execution in 1670.
SteveG

> Closer to "home," evidently the "earliest date" for the singing of
> narrative (or any other) songs must depend upon the movement of a
> language's rhythm. In the case of English songs, they could not
> possibly have been sung in their present recognisable form at a
> time preceding the entry of the French language into modern English
> as used by the people who sang and were sung to."Sumer is icumen in" has no French in it and it first appears with
a tune attached.  Other songs of the period that are given with tunes
tunes don't use French in any metrically essential way.A lot of Anglo-Saxon poetry has a metre of two half-lines, going    - . - . | - . - .Which would fit 6/8 metre just fine.  You could sing "Beowulf"
to "The Cock of the North" a.k.a. "Auntie Mary had a canary" or
equally well "the Athole Highlanders".I can't think of an English tune that fits "The Battle of Maldon",
but the Gaelic lament "I Will Return to Kintail" works quite well.For that matter, how much French is there in most ballads?
I just grabbed the first vaguely-relevant book I had out, a
collected Burns, and turned to the first mostly-traditional
item in it: "The rantin dog the Daddie o't".  The only French
word I see in the whole song is "mount".-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

On 8/12/04, Jack Campin wrote:> > Closer to "home," evidently the "earliest date" for the singing of
>> narrative (or any other) songs must depend upon the movement of a
>> language's rhythm. In the case of English songs, they could not
>> possibly have been sung in their present recognisable form at a
>> time preceding the entry of the French language into modern English
>> as used by the people who sang and were sung to.
>
>"Sumer is icumen in" has no French in it and it first appears with
>a tune attached.  Other songs of the period that are given with tunes
>tunes don't use French in any metrically essential way.
>
>A lot of Anglo-Saxon poetry has a metre of two half-lines, going
>
>    - . - . | - . - .
>
>Which would fit 6/8 metre just fine.  You could sing "Beowulf"
>to "The Cock of the North" a.k.a. "Auntie Mary had a canary" or
>equally well "the Athole Highlanders".
>
>I can't think of an English tune that fits "The Battle of Maldon",
>but the Gaelic lament "I Will Return to Kintail" works quite well.
>
>For that matter, how much French is there in most ballads?
>I just grabbed the first vaguely-relevant book I had out, a
>collected Burns, and turned to the first mostly-traditional
>item in it: "The rantin dog the Daddie o't".  The only French
>word I see in the whole song is "mount".I don't think the point is French vocabulary; it's speech
rhythms. You can say you could sing "Beowulf" or "Maldon"
or "Deor" to a particular pattern -- but it is unlikely that
it really works that way. Our modern songs follow precise
metrical patterns, based on precise metre plus rhyme. We
don't know how a scop sang, but we know that it was an
alliterative measure with much looser metre. That will almost
certainly have been sung in a different style.I agree that French vocabulary is very rare in folk song; it
is characteristic of oral tradition to use short, simple words
(quite a few songs use *no* words of more than two syllables),
and such words are mostly Germanic.On the flip side, back in the days of Old English, they were
much more heavily inflected, which would tend to increase the
syllable count. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Does anyone know when this song was first published or who wrote it?Thanks,
A. Miller
Woodside, CAI had a little nut tree
Nothing would it bear
Save a silver nut-meg
And a golden pearThe King of Spain, his daughter 
Came to visit me,
And t?was all be-cause of 
My little nut tree--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .

----- Original Message -----
From: "[unmask]" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 12 August 2004 13:47
Subject: I Had a Little Nut TreeDoes anyone know when this song was first published or who wrote it?Thanks,
A. Miller
Woodside, CAI had a little nut tree
Nothing would it bear
Save a silver nut-meg
And a golden pearThe King of Spain, his daughter
Came to visit me,
And t'was all be-cause of
My little nut tree--------------------------------------------------------------------Iona and Peter Opie, Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes no.381, cite earliest publication in Newest
Christmas Box, c. 1797; followed by James Orchard Halliwell, The Nursery Rhymes of England, revised
ed., 1843.Halliwell (1853) quoted an additional verse:I skipp'd over water, I danced over sea
And all the birds in the air couldn't catch me.The British Library catalogue online lists:The Newest Christmas Box, containing a Variety of Bagatelles arranged for One, Two, or Three Voices
and the Piano-Forte
... Op. 2. bk. 1
Spofforth. Reginald
London. Longman and Broderip. [1797]
fol
G.352.(35.)Spofforth lived from 1770 to 1836; one of his compositions, the glee Hail Smiling Morn, is still a
favourite of the carolling tradition in the Sheffield area. Whether his music for I had a little Nut
Tree bears any resemblance to the tune to which it is sung now, I don't know. There doesn't seem to
be any suggestion that he wrote the words. Halliwell suggested a connection with Juana of Castile,
but nursery rhymes have always attracted what the Opies called "happy guessers".

On 8/12/04, Malcolm Douglas wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: "[unmask]" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: 12 August 2004 13:47
>Subject: I Had a Little Nut Tree
>
>
>Does anyone know when this song was first published or who wrote it?
>
>Thanks,
>A. Miller
>Woodside, CA
>
>I had a little nut tree
>Nothing would it bear
>Save a silver nut-meg
>And a golden pear
>
>The King of Spain, his daughter
>Came to visit me,
>And t'was all be-cause of
>My little nut tree
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Iona and Peter Opie, Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes no.381, cite earliest publication in Newest
>Christmas Box, c. 1797; followed by James Orchard Halliwell, The Nursery Rhymes of England, revised
>ed., 1843.
>
>Halliwell (1853) quoted an additional verse:
>
>I skipp'd over water, I danced over sea
>And all the birds in the air couldn't catch me.
>
>The British Library catalogue online lists:
>
>The Newest Christmas Box, containing a Variety of Bagatelles arranged for One, Two, or Three Voices
>and the Piano-Forte
>... Op. 2. bk. 1
>Spofforth. Reginald
>London. Longman and Broderip. [1797]
>fol
>G.352.(35.)
>
>Spofforth lived from 1770 to 1836; one of his compositions, the glee Hail Smiling Morn, is still a
>favourite of the carolling tradition in the Sheffield area. Whether his music for I had a little Nut
>Tree bears any resemblance to the tune to which it is sung now, I don't know. There doesn't seem to
>be any suggestion that he wrote the words. Halliwell suggested a connection with Juana of Castile,
>but nursery rhymes have always attracted what the Opies called "happy guessers".To follow up on this point, here is the Ballad Index entry, which
discusses this point:NAME: I Had a Little Nut Tree
DESCRIPTION: "I had a little nutmeg, nothing would it bear But a silver
   nutmeg and a golden pear. The King of Spain's daughter came to visit me
   And all for the sake of my little nut tree." "Her dress was all of
   crimson.... She asked me for my nutmeg...."
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1939 (Linscott); first printing appears to have been in one
   of the Tom Thumb songbooks (n.d. but c. 1790)
KEYWORDS: royalty food courting
FOUND IN: US(NE)
REFERENCES (1 citation):
Linscott, pp. 210-211, "I Had a Little Nut Tree" (1 text, 1 tune)
Roud #3749
NOTES: Folklorists, ever desperate for an event upon which to hang a song,
   have connected this to the visit of Juana (Joanna) of Castile (the future
   Juana the Mad, 1479-1555, queen of Castile from 1505), the father of the
   future Emperor Charles V, who visited England in 1506 during the reign of
   Henry VII.
This has the usual problems. For starters, Juana's father Ferdinand of
   Aragon was not King of Spain; he was King of Aragon, and it was not until
   Juana succeeded him in 1516 that Spain was properly a united kingdom.
   (Though, in fairness, Ferdinand was regent of Castile after his wife's
   death, so one might loosely call him King of Spain.)
Problem #2 is the dating; there is no hint of the song at the time of
   Juana's visit.
It's also worth noting that, even if you project this song back 250 years
   before the earliest known version, there is still no real reason to
   connect it to Juana. Why not connect it to, say, Catherine of Aragon,
   Juana's sister, who happened to marry the son of Henry VII?
In the incidentals department: I learned this song somewhere along the line,
   I think from my mother, and my tune is not Linscott's (and I know of no
   other printed traditional tune). - RBW
File: Lins210--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

At the business meeting of the KfV in Riga, Luisa Del Giudice, current
president, announced that she would not be running for a second term. A
Newsletter reporting on the conference will be sent out in due course. In
the meantime, and to assure the smooth transfer of the Kommission's
activities, we send this "call for nominations" for the post of President.Call for Nominations for the Position of President
Kommission f? Volksdichtung (SIEF)Nominations for the position of KfV President (vacated by Luisa Del Giudice,
2000-2005), may be made by KfV members in good standing (those who have
attended at least two KfV meetings during the past five years, i.e.
Bucharest 2000, Budapest 2001, Leuven 2002, Austin 2003 and Riga 2004).
Please consider the following and submit your candidate's name to both David
Atkinson ([unmask]) and Barbara Boock
([unmask]) simultaneously by 30 September 2004.  The
candidate should ideally meet the following requirements:1)  have expertise in the area of ballad/folksong scholarship
2)  be available to attend the majority of annual meetings
3)  have knowledge of at least two of the KfV official languages (English,
German, French)
4)  have good organizational and communication skills, be able to work well
with the executive, and be capable of officially representing the KfV
whenever needed
5)  help promote the organization and carry out its various functions* * * * * * * * * * * * *To nominate a candidate, please submit the following:1)  name of nominee, address (e-mail and regular)2)  name & address of at least two KfV members making nomination3)  a message from the nominee stating the acceptance of the nomination, and
making a brief statement regarding past involvement with the IBC (meetings
attended, papers given/published), and any vision for the candidate's future
role in this position.  The statement will be made available to all voting
members and should be no more than one page.Election of the KfV President will be conducted electronically and will be
completed by 15 October 2004.  More information on candidates and on voting
procedure will follow.Send nominations electronically and simultaneously to both Secretaries of
the KfV: David Atkinson, at: [unmask] and Barbara
Boock, at:
[unmask], with "KfV Elections" in the subject line.Bei der Mitgliederversammlung der KfV in Riga k?digte Luisa del Giudice,
die amtierende Pr?identin der KfV an, da?sie f? eine weitere Amtszeit
nicht zur Verf?ung steht. Der elektronische Rundbrief, der ?er den Verlauf
der Tagung informiert, wird noch erstellt. Um f? einen reibungslosen Ablauf
der Kommissions-Aktivit?en zu sorgen, versenden wir diesen Aufruf zur
Einsendung von Wahlvorschl?en f? das Pr?identenamt vorab.Wahlvorschl?e zur Wahl der/s Pr?identen/in der Kommission f?
Volksdichtung (SIEF)Wahlvorschl?e f? das Amt der/s Pr?identen/in der KfV k?nen von
Mitgliedern, die wenigstens an zwei KfV-Tagungen der letzten f?f Jahre
(Bukarest 2000, Budapest 2001, Leuven 2002, Austin 2003 und Riga 2004)
teilgenommen haben, eingereicht werden. Bitte behalten Sie die folgenden
Punkte im Auge und ?ermitteln Sie Ihren Kandidatenvorschlag bis zum
30.September 2004 sowohl an David Atkinson
([unmask]) als auch an Barbara Boock
([unmask])Die Kandidatin/ Der Kandidat sollte die folgenden Voraussetzungen erf?len:1)      Erfahrungen auf dem Gebiet der Balladen- / Volksliedforschung2)      M?lichkeit zur Teilnahme an den j?rlichen tagungen3)      Kenntnis von wenigstens zwei der offiziellen KfV-Sprachen
(Deutschen, Englisch, Franz?isch)4)      Gute organisatorische und kommunikative F?igkeiten, gute
Zusammenarbeit mit dem Vorstand und die F?igkeit die KfV offiziell zu
vertreten5)      Sie / Er sollte die Organisation unterst?zen und helfen ihre
verschiedenen Funktionen zu erf?len.* * * * * * * * * * * * *Wenn Sie eine/n Kandidatin/en vorschlagen wollen, bitten wir um die
folgenden Angaben:1) Name und Adresse der/des Vorgeschlagenen (e-mail- und Post-Adresse)2) Name und Adresse von wenigstens zwei KfV-Mitgliedern, die den Vorschlag
unterst?zen3) Eine Erkl?ung der/des Vorgeschlagenen, da?sie/er mit der Nominierung
einverstanden ist und eine kurze Erkl?ung zu ihren/seinen bisherigen
Aktivit?en in der Balladen-Kommission (Teilnahme an Tagungen, gehaltene und
ver?fentlichte Referate, etc.) und ihrer/ seiner Vorstellung von ihrer/
seiner zuk?ftigen Amtsf?rung. Diese Erkl?ung soll an die w?lenden
Mitglieder weitergegeben werden und sollte deswegen nicht l?ger als eine
Seite sein.Die Wahl der/des KfV-Pr?identin/Pr?identen wird elektronisch abgewickelt
werden und bis zum 15. Oktober 2004 abgeschlossen sein. Weitere
Informationen ?er Kandidaten und den Wahlvorgang werden folgen.Senden Sie Ihre Wahlvorschl?e per email gleichzeitig an beide Sekret?e der
KfV:David Atkinson: [unmask] und Barbara Boock:
[unmask]Lors de l'assembl? g??ale de la KfV, tenue ?Riga, Luisa Del Guidice, la
Pr?idente sortante, a fait savoir qu'elle ne se portait pas candidate ?un
second mandat.  Un bulletin d'informations faisant rapport de la conf?ence
suivra en temps utile. De sorte ?assurer le transfert des responsabilit?
dans les meilleures conditions, nous vous faisons parvenir d'ores et d??l'
"Appel ?Nominations" ?la fonction de Pr?ident(e).Appel ?nominations ?la fonction de Pr?ident(e)
Kommission f? Volksdichtung (SIEF)Les nominations ?la fonction de Pr?ident(e), rendue vacante par
l'expiration du mandat de Luisa Del Giudice (2000-2005), peuvent ?re re?es
de la part des membres attitr? de la KfV (cad. ceux qui ont assist??au
moins deux conf?ences de la KfV au cours des cinq derni?es ann?s:
Bucarest 2000, Budapest 2001, Louvain 2002, Austin 2003 et Riga 2004). Les
membres attitr? sont invit? ?prendre connaissance des instructions
ci-apr? et ?soumettre le nom du/de la candidat(e) de leur choix
simultan?ent ?  David Atkinson ([unmask]) ainsi
qu'?Barbara Boock ([unmask]) pour le 30 septembre
2004.Le/la candidat(e) satisfera id?lement aux conditions sp?ifi?s ci-apr?:1)  ?re sp?ialis?e) dans le domaine de la recherche sur les ballades /
chansons populaires
2) ?re ?m?e d'assister ?la majorit?des conf?ences annuelles
3) conna?re au moins deux des langues officielles de la KfV (anglais,
allemand, fran?is)
4)  avoir des aptitudes organisationnelles et communicatives, ?re ?m?e de
travailler harmonieusement avec le bureau ex?utif et de repr?enter
officiellement la KfV en toutes circonstances. 5)  promouvoir l'association
et s'acquitter de toutes les t?hes y aff?entes.* * * * * * * * * * * * *Pour nominer un/une candidat(e), veuillez soumettre les donn?s ci-apr?:1)  le nom et l'adresse (courriel et domicile/institution) de/de la
candidat(e),2)  le nom et l'adresse d'au moins deux membres attitr? de la KfV
proposant la nomination du/de la candidat(e)3)  un message du/de la candidat(e) marquant son accord ?sa nomination,
accompagn?d'une br?e d?laration faisant ?at de ses ant??ents au sein
de la KfV  (assistance aux conf?ences, communications lues/publi?s), ainsi
que de sa vision du r?e qu'il/elle se propose de remplir au poste de
Pr?ident(e).  Cette d?laration (d'une page maximum) sera communiqu?
ult?ieurement.L'?ection du/de la Pr?ident(e) de la KfV se fera ?ectroniquement et sera
cl?ur? au 15  octobre 2004.  De plus amples renseignements sur les
candidat(e)s ainsi que sur la proc?ure de vote seront communiqu?s en temps
utile.Les nominations sont ?envoyer simultan?ent et par courriel aux deux
Secr?aires de la KfV:  David Atkinson, ?
[unmask] et Barbara Boock, ?
[unmask], avec mention pour sujet:  "Elections KfV".

I have converted to HTML a couple of early Journal of American
Folklore articles concerning southern songs (see description below).
Download the articles here:                     http://tinyurl.com/54egy  1911. Odum, Howard W. "Folk-Song and Folk-Rhymes as found in the
Secular Songs of the Southern Negroes," in: Journal of American
Folklore, (1911), pp. 255-94 and 351-96.  Legman in his introduction
of Randolph's "Unprintable" collection mentions this Odum article as
worthy of being reissued.  1912-15.  Perrow, E. C.  "Songs and Rhymes from the South". Journal
of American Folklore 25:137-155; also (1913) 26:123-173  ; and (1915)
28:129-190.   Important collection of Negro folksongs, basically
expurgated, but offering valuable evidence and traces.  Legman says
that this "collection should be collected and reprinted in book form".Enjoy!John Mehlberg
~
My bawdy songbooks online:  http://tinyurl.com/3l5h2

Dear Adam  --  I think the origin of that poem (or song) is a mystery, and has been
considered so for many years. It really is pretty old, with some indubitable texts
as early as the 18th Century. And crediting it to the time of Juana of Castile
(as does J.O.Halliwell around 1842) puts it back to 1506, when Juana visited
King Henry VII in England.  I got the song about 1945, from Linscott's 1939
book, _Folk Songs of Old New England_, a very import-
ant  book in the development of my repertoire. Mrs. Linscoott had learned it
from one of her grandmothers, Elizabeth Wheeler Hubbard. I was then a civilian
student  of SONAR operation at the U.S. Navy Sound  School  in San  Diego,and
learning "new" songs like this somehow lessened the pain of the enforced
separation from my new and lovely wife Leslie. When she and our baby Leanne
finally joined me in San Diego, they too loved the song!Love,Sam

Hi!        Things continue to be slow on Ebay. I guess everyone is on
vacation. Here is what could find this week.        SONGSTERS        3924765076 - Grange Songster, 1915, $5 (ends Aug-14-04 18:20:38 PDT)        3925060003 - Billy Burke's Barnum & Great London CIRCUS Songster,
1882, $9.99 (ends Aug-14-04 18:57:33 PDT)        5914654468 - PERI SONGSTER, 1858, 9.99 GBP (ends Aug-16-04
09:20:43 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        6917814905 - Vermont Folk Songs & Ballads by Flanders & Brown,
1931, $5 (ends Aug-14-04 18:36:35 PDT)        3740868283 - The Book of British Ballads by Bohn, 1853, $199
(ends Aug-16-04 09:50:07 PDT)        6918140187 - Songs of Scotland by Paterson, 1996, $15 (ends
Aug-16-04 10:00:19 PDT)        6917188982 - Ancient English Metrical Romances by Ritson, 3 volumes
in 1, 1884 edition, $75 (ends Aug-16-04 12:00:00 PDT)        6918194422 - Old English Ballads A Collection of Favourite Ballads
of the Olden Time. 1870, 9.99 GBP (ends Aug-16-04 13:08:00 PDT)        6917635574 - The Balladists by Geddie, 1896, $14.99 (ends
Aug-16-04 17:28:38 PDT)        3741561092 - A Selection of Some Less Known Folk Songs by Willims,
1935, $3 (ends Aug-17-04 10:06:15 PDT)        6917793338 - The Second Book of Irish Ballads by Healy, 1964, 4 GBP
(ends Aug-17-04 15:46:05 PDT)        6917826908 - WHITE SPIRITUALS IN THE SOUTHERN UPLANDS by Jackson,
1933, $16.51 (ends Aug-17-04 20:01:31 PDT)        6918592666 - The English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Child, 5
volumes, 1965 Dover edition, $9 (ends Aug-17-04 20:24:36 PDT)        6918749797 - The Irish Rover A Ballad Miscellany, $8.99 (ends
Aug-18-04 12:40:23 PDT)        3741333532 - The Songs of England by Hatton, 3 volumes, 1896, 9
GBP (ends Aug-19-04 03:07:04 PDT)        6918289774 - The Idiom of the People by Reeves, 1958, $24 (ends
Aug-19-04 21:58:43 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        6917154284 - 2 issues of English Dance & Song, New Year 1961 &
Summer 1976, 0.55 GBP (ends Aug-14-04 12:01:12 PDT)        6917155509 - 9 issues of English Dance & Song, Spring 1979 to
Summer/Autumn 1982, 11.05 GBP (ends Aug-14-04 12:03:50 PDT)        6918551124 - 6 ISSUES OF JOURNAL OF AMERICAN FOLKLORE, 1977-79,
$7.99 (ends Aug-20-04 18:34:37 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 13 August 2004 00:30
Subject: Re: I Had a Little Nut Tree> Dear Adam  --
>
>   I think the origin of that poem (or song) is a mystery, and has been
> considered so for many years. It really is pretty old, with some indubitable texts
> as early as the 18th Century.One only, it would seem; and that only just (1797). Of course it may well be earlier, but we don't
know that.>And crediting it to the time of Juana of Castile
> (as does J.O.Halliwell around 1842)Without offering evidence of any kind. To be precise, he said"The following perhaps refers to Joanna of Castile, who visited the court of Henry the Seventh, in
the year 1506."Iona and Peter Opie, with commendable tact, commented "Whether there are grounds for the theory is
not clear."I haven't seen the Linscott set. How does the tune go? In the UK, anyone over 40 or so (who paid
attention) is likely to remember the tune regularly broadcast on BBC Radio's "Listen with Mother"
back in the 1950s and early '60s; a lot of nursery rhyme tunes were spread that way. I know
embarrassingly little about the sources of those melodies, but my impression is that they derive
mostly from mid 19th century collections, perhaps chiefly from Edward Rimbault?Malcolm Douglas

On 8/13/04, Malcolm Douglas wrote:[ ... ]>I haven't seen the Linscott set. How does the tune go? In the UK, anyone over 40 or so (who paid
>attention) is likely to remember the tune regularly broadcast on BBC Radio's "Listen with Mother"
>back in the 1950s and early '60s; a lot of nursery rhyme tunes were spread that way. I know
>embarrassingly little about the sources of those melodies, but my impression is that they derive
>mostly from mid 19th century collections, perhaps chiefly from Edward Rimbault?I don't have a program for generating ABC, and don't know how to
do it manually, but what follows will probably allow you to put
Linscott's sheet music into a music program and play it. I've
indicated the note (c being the tonic, with b being the note
below the tonic and D E F G A B C being the scale above the
tonic). 1=whole note, 2=half note, 4=quarter note, 8=eighth note,
6=16th note. A dot is a dot. So, e.g. e4 is the tonic e, quarter
note; B8. is a dotted eighth note on B a fifth above that.
| indicates a bar line.Linscott's original is in Eb. Common time. I'm transposing down
to C to avoid dealing with sharps and flats. - represents a slur.c8 | c8  D8  c8  E8  G4   G4   |  A8  A8   A8   C8  G4.
I    had a   lit-tle nut tree,   noth-ing would it bear,G8 | F8  F8 F8  G8  E4  E4     | D8  F8 D8   b8 c4.
Ex- cept a  sil-ver nut-meg      and a  gol-den pear.c8 |  c8  D8  c8-E8   G4   G4  | A8  G8 A8  C8 G4.
The  King of Spain's daugh-ter  came to vis-it meG8 | A8-C8  G8  E8   A4  F8 F8 | E6 E8.  D4   c4.
And  all    for the sake of my   lit-tle nut tree.CODAc8 | c8-D8  c8 E8  G4 G8   G8  |  A8  G8  A8 C8 G4.
I    danced o- ver wa-ter, I     skip-ped o-ver sea,G8 | A8  C8  G8-E8 A8 A8  F4   |  E6  E8.  D4   c4.
And  all the birds in the air    couldn't catch me.This is vaguely similar to the tune I learned (I think)
from my mother, but has many differences in detail,
including the use of sixteenth notes and a lot of
differences in direction (it goes up when my tune goes
down, etc.). Also, my version has no coda, and there is
only one repeated strain to the melody rather than two
slightly different strains.I hope that helps.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 13 August 2004 02:55
Subject: Re: I Had a Little Nut Tree-------------Thanks for that. It's essentially the tune that I remember from childhood (though, as I mentioned, I
learned it from broadcast media some 45 years ago rather than from family, so far as I can tell). I
obviously need to find a copy of Rimbault, and probably also the Moffat/Kidson nursery
collaborations. Is anyone familiar with those? I gather that Murray Shoolbraid has done work on the
Scottish nursery repertoire, and would likely have seen most of the relevant stuff?Malcolm Douglas

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I am not familiar with Murray Shoolbraid's work...is it a published collection of Scottish Nursery songs?   Is it easily(or even un-easily accessible) accessible in the US?Liz In New Hampshire
Image 4-----Original Message-----
From: Malcolm Douglas [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 10:39 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: I Had a Little Nut Tree----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 13 August 2004 02:55
Subject: Re: I Had a Little Nut Tree-------------Thanks for that. It's essentially the tune that I remember from childhood (though, as I mentioned, I
learned it from broadcast media some 45 years ago rather than from family, so far as I can tell). I
obviously need to find a copy of Rimbault, and probably also the Moffat/Kidson nursery
collaborations. Is anyone familiar with those? I gather that Murray Shoolbraid has done work on the
Scottish nursery repertoire, and would likely have seen most of the relevant stuff?Malcolm Douglas

Liz, my rather abortive anthology, which I call "Bairnsangs", hasn't seen
the light yet - somehow it never fitted into a publisher's category.  It's a
collection of Scottish children's rhymes from various sources, some
collected and some printed, e.g. Moffatt.  The Nut Tree however I have not
found in Scottish sources.  The tune seems to be yet another variation on
"Ah vous dirais-je maman", though on reflection it's closer to the vehicle
of "Goosey goosey gander", wherever _that_ is from.
Cheers
Murray.

Greetings good People!
                        I am looking for Catchside
Warrington (SP Tyneside Songs Volume IV as published by Windows. Any
edition. Can trade Volume 1. Zerox ok....
Can pay for copying....postage....Many thanks for looking through your stuff!In advance!               Conrad Bladey
               Peasant
--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

Greetings!
              Can't remember if I told you all but...
 Allan's Illustrated Edition of Tyneside Songs and Readings With Lives,
Portraits, and Autographs of the Writers and Notes on the Songs, Revised
Edition, Thomas & George Allan, 18 Blackett Street, and 34 Collingwood
Street.Sold By- W. Allan, 30 Grainger Street; R. Allan, North Shields, London:
Walter Scott, 1891
All songs now on the web pages....
http://www.geocities.com/matalzi/geordiesang.htmlEnjoy!
Conrad
--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

Sam:
I love your little anecdotal comments on songs and your youth.  I hope some
time in the next 20 years you gather them all into some sort of memoir.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: I Had a Little Nut Tree> Dear Adam  --
>
>   I think the origin of that poem (or song) is a mystery, and has been
> considered so for many years. It really is pretty old, with some
indubitable texts
> as early as the 18th Century. And crediting it to the time of Juana of
Castile
> (as does J.O.Halliwell around 1842) puts it back to 1506, when Juana
visited
> King Henry VII in England.  I got the song about 1945, from Linscott's
1939
> book, _Folk Songs of Old New England_, a very import-
> ant  book in the development of my repertoire. Mrs. Linscoott had learned
it
> from one of her grandmothers, Elizabeth Wheeler Hubbard. I was then a
civilian
> student  of SONAR operation at the U.S. Navy Sound  School  in San
Diego,and
> learning "new" songs like this somehow lessened the pain of the enforced
> separation from my new and lovely wife Leslie. When she and our baby
Leanne
> finally joined me in San Diego, they too loved the song!
>
> Love,
>
> Sam
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi,John. Excellent result.
Many thanks!
It's certainly the earliest that I've come across (excepting The Flash
Lad/ Claude Duval connection, which, although they share a few stanzas,
I'd say was a separate ballad)
I'm not sure what you mean by 'general names' though. All of the places
and people mentioned are very real, contemporary and plausible. In my
experience most of these ballads are based on real events (Kelly for
instance--until we got to work on it all previous scholars had put it down
as a generic made up piece).
I have done a comparative stanza by stanza, line by line study on all of
the  accessible variants. While the names can vary considerably, even on
broadsides, there is still a sizable core of consistent variants, for
instance, Fielding and Mansfield are pretty universal.
I'll put the 1788 version into the equasion and post up anything
significant which shows up.By the way quite a lot of references mention Charley Reilly. Surely this
is not just down to Bunting's tune only version.
SteveG

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

To everyone who responded, thank you for all the information!-Adam

I learned a song called "Twenty Froggies" from a Folkways album by Sam
Hinton:"Twenty froggies went to school down beside the rushy pool
Twenty little coats of green, twenty vests all white and clean..."Sam writes that he learned the song from his parents.  Does anyone know
when this song was first published?Thank you,A. Miller
Woodside, CA

John:A valuable service, this.EdP.S.:  I owe you a long message.P.P.S.:  Your bawdy song CD was well distributed in NYC and well received by your irregular correspondent, E.C.----- Original Message -----
From: John Mehlberg <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:38 pm
Subject: Early Southern songs online.> I have converted to HTML a couple of early Journal of American
> Folklore articles concerning southern songs (see description below).
> Download the articles here:
>
>                     http://tinyurl.com/54egy
>
>
>  1911. Odum, Howard W. "Folk-Song and Folk-Rhymes as found in the
> Secular Songs of the Southern Negroes," in: Journal of American
> Folklore, (1911), pp. 255-94 and 351-96.  Legman in his introduction
> of Randolph's "Unprintable" collection mentions this Odum article as
> worthy of being reissued.
>
>  1912-15.  Perrow, E. C.  "Songs and Rhymes from the South". Journal
> of American Folklore 25:137-155; also (1913) 26:123-173  ; and (1915)
> 28:129-190.   Important collection of Negro folksongs, basically
> expurgated, but offering valuable evidence and traces.  Legman says
> that this "collection should be collected and reprinted in book form".
>
> Enjoy!
>
> John Mehlberg
> ~
> My bawdy songbooks online:  http://tinyurl.com/3l5h2
>

Roger Renwick has a chapter on this ballad in _Recentering Anglo-American Folksong_.  You may find some useful info there.Cheers
Jamie

The worries of old age: can anyone help with a citation for the following
text of "The Battle of the Boyne"?They fought with sticks and they fought with stones, King William on a
charger,
He says "now boys, don't be dismayed on losing a commander."
On and on the battle raged, till stopped by the fearful slaughter,
Ten thousand Micks were killed with sticks at the Battle of Boyne Water.I remember it as going to the Boyne Water tune.The second line comes from the Duke Schomberg reference in the
"July the first in Oldbrigde town"
or
"July the First, of a morning clear, one thousand six hundred and ninety,
King William did his men prepare, of thousands he had thirty"
version.It seems complete enough to have been a children's street rhyme but I can't
imagine I learned it that way.
I probably got it from a book, and in that case it's probably a U.S.
version.Ben Schwartz

The way I heard it, in the streets of Brooklyn ca. 1940 was:
"...Ten thousand Micks they lost their pricks
At the battle of the bubbling Boyne"bennett schwartz wrote:>The worries of old age: can anyone help with a citation for the following
>text of "The Battle of the Boyne"?
>
>They fought with sticks and they fought with stones, King William on a
>charger,
>He says "now boys, don't be dismayed on losing a commander."
>On and on the battle raged, till stopped by the fearful slaughter,
>Ten thousand Micks were killed with sticks at the Battle of Boyne Water.
>
>I remember it as going to the Boyne Water tune.
>
>The second line comes from the Duke Schomberg reference in the
>"July the first in Oldbrigde town"
>or
>"July the First, of a morning clear, one thousand six hundred and ninety,
>King William did his men prepare, of thousands he had thirty"
>version.
>
>It seems complete enough to have been a children's street rhyme but I can't
>imagine I learned it that way.
>I probably got it from a book, and in that case it's probably a U.S.
>version.
>
>Ben Schwartz
>
>
>

Greetings Ballad-l,Does anyone want to OCR the 5vol. set of _Merry
Songs and Ballads, prior to the year A.D. 1800._
which was edited by Farmer?  If yes, I have
scans of the original 1897 set.Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~
My bawdy songs, toasts and recitations website:
www.immortalia.com

Here's the original (courtesy of the late Bruce Olson and the Digital
Tradition)The Boyne Water
Lieutenant Colonel William BlackerJuly the First in Ouldbridge Town there was a grievous battle
Where many a man lay on the ground by cannons that did rattle;
Kin James he pitched his tents between the lines for to retire,
But King William threw his bombballs in and set them all on fire.Whereat they vowed revenge upon King William s forces
And oft did vehemently cry that they would stop their courses;
A bullet from the Irish cam an grazed King William s arm,
They thought His Majesty was slain, yet it did him little harm.Duke Schomberg then, in friendly care, his King would often caution
To shun the spot where bullets hot retained their rapid motion;
But William said, He don t deserve the name of Faith s Defender,
Who would not venture life and limb to make a foe surrender.When we the Boyne began to cross,the enemy descended,
But few of our brave men were lost, so stoutly we defended;
The Horse it was that first marched o er, the Foot soon followed after,
But brave Duke Schomberg was no more by venturing o er the water.When valiant Schomberg he was slain, King William he accosted
His warlike men for to march on and he would be foremost;
Brave boys  he cried  be not dismayed for the loss of one commander,
For God shall be our kin this day and I ll be general under.Then stoutly we the Boyne did cross to give the enemies battle;
Our cannon to our foes great cost, like thundering claps did rattle;
In majestic mien our Prince rode o er his men soon followed after,
With blow and shout put our foe to the rout, the day we crossed the water.The Protestants of Drogheda have reason to be thankful
That they were not to bondage brought, they being but a handful;
First to the Those they were brought and tried at Millmount after,
But brave King William  set them free by venturing o er the water.The cunning French near to Duleek had taken up their quarters,
And found themselves on every side still waiting for new orders;
But in the dead time of the night they set the fields on fire
And long before the morning s light to Dublin did retire.Then said King William to his men after the French departed
 I m glad, said he that non of ye seem to be faint-hearted;
So sheath your swords and rest awhile , in time we ll follow after ,
These words he uttered with a smile the day he crossed the water.Come let us all with heart and voice applaud our live's defender
Who at the Boyne his valor showed and mad his for surrender
To God above, the praise we ll give now and ever after,
And bless the glorious memory of King William that crossed the water.pp.171-2Faolain,Turlough,Blood on the Harp,Whitston,Troy,1983.
[from P. W. Joyce's Old Irish Folk Music and Songs. I've seen
other copies, and maybe one is in vol 2 of J Hogg's Jacobite
Relics of Scotland.]Tune:
"Playing among the rashes" in Wm. Graham Flute MS, 1694.
Crude version without title, Pills to Purge Melancholy, V, p.
  112, 1719.
"The Rashes" Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion, Book 5, p. 26
   (c 1753) This has more slurs and grace notes, plus an
   additional strain of 8 measures compared to the following.
"When the King comes over the water", Oswald's Caledonian Pocket
   Companion, Book 11, p. 23 (c 1760).
"When the King came over the water" Bremner's edition of
   McGibbon's Scots Tunes, II, p. 12 (1762). (Bremner's addition,
   not in McGibbon's original 3 books)   Thereafter the tune becomes common. It is "The Cavalcade of
the Boyne" in Bunting's A General Collection of the Ancient Music
of Ireland, p. 40, 1809. The tune is that for "The Dowie dens of
Yarrow' (Child 214) in Kidson's Traditional Tunes, p. 21, 1891.
  For other traditional songs to variants of the tune see S.
Bayard, Dance to the Fiddle, March to the Fife, no. 317, 1982.
Bayard takes several other tunes as derived from this, such as:
Such a parcel of Rogues in a Nation, Wee, wee German Lairdie, Wha
the Deil hae we gotten for a King.
WBO>
>
> bennett schwartz wrote:
>
>> The worries of old age: can anyone help with a citation for the
>> following
>> text of "The Battle of the Boyne"?
>>
>> They fought with sticks and they fought with stones, King William on a
>> charger,
>> He says "now boys, don't be dismayed on losing a commander."
>> On and on the battle raged, till stopped by the fearful slaughter,
>> Ten thousand Micks were killed with sticks at the Battle of Boyne Water.
>>
>> I remember it as going to the Boyne Water tune.
>>
>> The second line comes from the Duke Schomberg reference in the
>> "July the first in Oldbrigde town"
>> or
>> "July the First, of a morning clear, one thousand six hundred and
>> ninety,
>> King William did his men prepare, of thousands he had thirty"
>> version.
>>
>> It seems complete enough to have been a children's street rhyme but I
>> can't
>> imagine I learned it that way.
>> I probably got it from a book, and in that case it's probably a U.S.
>> version.
>>
>> Ben Schwartz
>>
>>
>>
>

John,Thank you so much for the CDs.  They went "like wildfire" at
the bawdy songs session.  I also projected your website home
page for all and sundry.I would be happy to have our staff OCR any of the classic
texts that you have available.  However, we would then be
interested in reselling those same works within our Heritage
Collectors line.  Perhaps even a complete CD of several of
the books.  I could keep the price low (probably around $20-
$25) for each CD.  Enough to cover the staff time and CD
production involved.   What do you think?THanks again.David M. Kleiman
Heritage Muse, Inc.

Ed,Thanks again for joining us. It was a delight having you
here and wonderful to hare your personal take on Woody.
We've been getting wonderful feedback about the sessions.I hope theater on Saturday evening was grand and that Diane
enjoyed the trip.  Perhaps we'll meet some day.I thought that might enjoy the following article in today's
NY Sun.http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/m2.asp?
Issue=NYS/2004/08/16&ID=Ar02401&Mode=HTMLBest,
David K.