>John:
>
>Goes to show.  I was 27 in 1960.   A wizened greybeard at that,
>veteran of the Korean conflict, survivor of grad school (no degree),
>McCarthyism, and setting out as a freelance writer.  (Which will
>surely age man or beast.)I was an assistant professor of chemistry at the University of
California, Riverside.  I escaped the draft through academic
deferments.  After getting my PhD from Iowa State College (not
University then!) in 1957, I spent a year a Yale as an Instructor
with the handsome salary of $4500/yr.  An opportunity to increase
that by $2500 took me to Riverside.  I didn't make tenure there and
moved to Georgia in 1963.  Been here ever since.>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Garst <[unmask]>
>Date: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:45 pm
>Subject: Re: On Ballad and Folk Song Scholarship
>
>>  >John:
>>  >
>>  >You mean your parents let you stay up that late?
>>  >
>>  >Ed
>>  >----- Original Message -----
>>  >From: John Garst <[unmask]>
>>  >Date: Monday, August 23, 2004 7:46 am
>>  >Subject: Re: On Ballad and Folk Song Scholarship
>>  >
>>  >>  >John:
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >My God, did you listen to my program, "From Here to Sunday" on KPFK?
>>  >>
>>  >>  Absolutely - it was my favorite time of the week!
>>  >>
>>  >  > John
>>
>>
>>  So, you ask, how old was I in 1960?  I turned 28 that year.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]
>>--
john garst    [unmask]

I learned this song from a Folkways recording by Sam Hinton:"Twenty froggies went to school
Down beside the rushy pool
Twenty little coats of green
Twenty vests all white and clean"Does anyone know when this song was first published or who wrote it?Thanks,
A. Miller
Woodside, CA

John:Seems to me that not getting tenure at Riverside was a lucky
stroke -- tho' I doubt it seemed that way at the time.  In terms of academic respectability, Georgia is a damn sight better than UCR.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 8:25 am
Subject: Re: On Ballad and Folk Song Scholarship> >John:
> >
> >Goes to show.  I was 27 in 1960.   A wizened greybeard at that,
> >veteran of the Korean conflict, survivor of grad school (no degree),
> >McCarthyism, and setting out as a freelance writer.  (Which will
> >surely age man or beast.)
>
> I was an assistant professor of chemistry at the University of
> California, Riverside.  I escaped the draft through academic
> deferments.  After getting my PhD from Iowa State College (not
> University then!) in 1957, I spent a year a Yale as an Instructor
> with the handsome salary of $4500/yr.  An opportunity to increase
> that by $2500 took me to Riverside.  I didn't make tenure there and
> moved to Georgia in 1963.  Been here ever since.
>
> >Ed
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> >Date: Monday, August 23, 2004 2:45 pm
> >Subject: Re: On Ballad and Folk Song Scholarship
> >
> >>  >John:
> >>  >
> >>  >You mean your parents let you stay up that late?
> >>  >
> >>  >Ed
> >>  >----- Original Message -----
> >>  >From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> >>  >Date: Monday, August 23, 2004 7:46 am
> >>  >Subject: Re: On Ballad and Folk Song Scholarship
> >>  >
> >>  >>  >John:
> >>  >>  >
> >>  >>  >My God, did you listen to my program, "From Here to Sunday" on KPFK?
> >>  >>
> >>  >>  Absolutely - it was my favorite time of the week!
> >>  >>
> >>  >  > John
> >>
> >>
> >>  So, you ask, how old was I in 1960?  I turned 28 that year.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  john garst    [unmask]
> >>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Miller" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 24 August 2004 16:36
Subject: Twenty Froggies> I learned this song from a Folkways recording by Sam Hinton:
>
> "Twenty froggies went to school
> Down beside the rushy pool
> Twenty little coats of green
> Twenty vests all white and clean"
>
> Does anyone know when this song was first published or who wrote it?It appears to have been written by a George Cooper. Steve Holland's British Juvenile Story Papers
and Pocket Libraries Index (http://users.ev1.net/~homeville/paper/0start.htm) indicates that
Cooper's poem "Frogs at School" appeared in The Boys Own Paper, 1 Feb, 1879. It appears in the Roud
Index at no. 4971.Whether this is the same George Cooper (1840-1927) who was a prolific writer of popular song lyrics
(collaborating with Stephen C Foster among many others) I don't know.See also "Twenty froggies went to school" (John Quincy Wolf Folklore Collection)  athttp://www.lyon.edu/wolfcollection/songs/vaughantwenty1252.htmlMalcolm Douglas

>John:
>
>Seems to me that not getting tenure at Riverside was a lucky
>stroke -- tho' I doubt it seemed that way at the time.  In terms of
>academic respectability, Georgia is a damn sight better than UCR.
>
>EdSometimes we are lucky.Perhaps this isn't really suitable for the list as a whole, but it
may serve as inspiration for some assistant professor out there
sweating out tenure.  I know of numerous examples where denial of
tenure led, ultimately, to a better situation.
--
john garst    [unmask]

(1) For my brief squib on "Ballad," I chose what I thought was the
simplest folkloristic definition, "a traditional song that tells a
story," as opposed to "lyric folk song," which lacks a well-defined
narrative element.  This definition includes epics.  I had lunch
today with two members of our English department, one with a degree
in folklore and the other with a strong interest therein, especially
in ballads.  They were horrified at my definition.  They insisted
that "ballad" should be much more restrictive and that epics are not
ballads.In Wilgus, Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898, I find in
the index no less that 30 pages on which there is implied to be
something about the definition of "ballad."  In Laws, Native American
Balladry, the author devotes the first chapter, 26 pages, to
definition and the second, another 12 pages, to discussion of
narrative characteristics.  In some of the definitions that have been
offered, I find a that "ballads" and "epics" are separated,"ballads"
being defined as "short."My English colleagues obviously accept "short" as part of the
definition of "ballad."What do you think?(2) My squib should cite a *very few* references.  I'm leaning towardLaws, Native American Balladry
Wilgus, Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898However, the emphasis of the squib is African-American material.
Neither of the above is devoted entirely to African-American
balladry.  I'm not aware of a book that is, except those that treat
specific ballads.I'm consideringScarborough, On the Trail of Negro Folk-Songs
White, American Negro Folk-Songs (I have Guy Benton Johnson's copy!)
Odum and Johnson, The Negro and His Songs, Negro Workaday SongsFour is too many.Also, none of the six works listed above are more recent than 1964.Suggestions?Thanks.John
--
john garst    [unmask]

John:"Short" is much too relative a term to have much meaning in a definition of ballad.  Okay, epics are long.  Ballads are shorter.  But some of the Robin Hood ballads run on for a hundred stanzas.  And the "Battle of Frendraught" is as long or longer.Better: epics tend to be muli-episodic.  Ballads tend to be built around a single event/episode.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 11:45 am
Subject: Definition of ballad> (1) For my brief squib on "Ballad," I chose what I thought was the
> simplest folkloristic definition, "a traditional song that tells a
> story," as opposed to "lyric folk song," which lacks a well-defined
> narrative element.  This definition includes epics.  I had lunch
> today with two members of our English department, one with a degree
> in folklore and the other with a strong interest therein, especially
> in ballads.  They were horrified at my definition.  They insisted
> that "ballad" should be much more restrictive and that epics are not
> ballads.
>
> In Wilgus, Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898, I find in
> the index no less that 30 pages on which there is implied to be
> something about the definition of "ballad."  In Laws, Native American
> Balladry, the author devotes the first chapter, 26 pages, to
> definition and the second, another 12 pages, to discussion of
> narrative characteristics.  In some of the definitions that have been
> offered, I find a that "ballads" and "epics" are separated,"ballads"
> being defined as "short."
>
> My English colleagues obviously accept "short" as part of the
> definition of "ballad."
>
> What do you think?
>
> (2) My squib should cite a *very few* references.  I'm leaning toward
>
> Laws, Native American Balladry
> Wilgus, Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898
>
> However, the emphasis of the squib is African-American material.
> Neither of the above is devoted entirely to African-American
> balladry.  I'm not aware of a book that is, except those that treat
> specific ballads.
>
> I'm considering
>
> Scarborough, On the Trail of Negro Folk-Songs
> White, American Negro Folk-Songs (I have Guy Benton Johnson's copy!)
> Odum and Johnson, The Negro and His Songs, Negro Workaday Songs
>
> Four is too many.
>
> Also, none of the six works listed above are more recent than 1964.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks.
>
> John
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

>John:
>
>"Short" is much too relative a term to have much meaning in a
>definition of ballad.  Okay, epics are long.  Ballads are shorter.
>But some of the Robin Hood ballads run on for a hundred stanzas.
>And the "Battle of Frendraught" is as long or longer.
>
>Better: epics tend to be muli-episodic.  Ballads tend to be built
>around a single event/episode.Agreed, and I have made this distinction between epics and
pan-European ballads of the Child type.  I'm inclined, however, to
consider epics to be long, multi-episodic ballads.  My colleagues
object.John

Folks,Several Ballad-L lurkers have asked that I post the latest "exciting things
happening in our world of digital folk music publishing" to this group.  First: ============================================
Digital editions of:
"Early Ballad Collections of James Maidment" (intro by Ed Cray) and
"Northern Garlands by Joseph Ritson" are now available (PC-Windows)."The Ballad Collections of George Ritchie Kinloch" with digitized music will
be available on Labor Day 2004.XML versions (Mac and PC compatible) versions of Child's "English and
Scottish Popular Ballads" and these new smaller digital editions are about
to be released as "The Heritage Collectors(tm) Digital Library - Shelf 1"
for academic and public library subscription through NetLibrary.  These
on-line editions are also section 508 compliant.The texts are interlinked and cross-searchable whether you are on the
stand-alone versions or the new web-delivered versions.  Ask in your
university or local public library of access starting 1st quarter of 2005. Second: ============================================
Because we now have an XML version, the Mac compatible edition will be
available (with somewhat limited features) this fall semester.Third: ============================================I thought that you all might be interested in this latest news (see the note
below) from one of our scholar/writers.  For those who don't know her, Fiona
is Professor of Drama and Literature at SUNY-Purchase.  She did her doctoral
work on Shakespeare at Columbia (as a Fulbright Scholar) and has a special
interest in the working songs and women's songs in Elizabethan theatre.Dear David:I have had the honor of being asked to write the ballad entry for the new
edition of the Oxford Encyclopedia of British Literature. The editor of the
Arden Shakespeare was so impressed by my essay for your collection that he
asked me personally. This will be the first time in a long time there's been
an entirely new edition, and the ballad entry will then be the most up to
date and accurate. The Cambridge Encyclopedia is online, but it is horribly
out of date and just plain inaccurate, given all the research done since it
was written. The Oxford collection will go into hardback and online. ...This is a great thing, and I think your collection deserves to be noted well
in this encyclopedia. It should be in the bibliography that will go with the
entry. ...Anyway, thanks for asking me in the first place to write about ballads. ...Best wishes,
Fiona McNeilFiona's essay on "History of the Ballads", written for us, was originally
intended for inclusion in the ESPB (digital edition) but is being re-edited
and moved to the web-site as part of our content development.Lastly: ============================================
Also, keep an eye out in the following publications for reviews and articles
on the ESPB (digital edition) and on Heritage Muse, Inc. over next few
months:Living Traditions Magazine (UK)
Sing Out! Magazine (US)
Journal of Scottish Studies (UK)
Journal of American Folklore (US)
International Journal of Folklore (US)
Songs of Freedom (Cable TV - Northeast US)And if you missed the review/article in Dirty Linen a couple of months ago,
a PDF of the text and images will be available on our website the week after
Labor Day.Regards,
David M. Kleiman
President & CEO
Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.
165 West End Avenue - Suite 12D
New York, NY 10023
212-721-9382
www.heritagemuse.com
[unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

This is to any ballad lover looking for something to do over Labor Day
Weekend. Ballad Boot Camp
Saturday September 4, 12:30-4:30 PM    Cost: $35.00
Reservations at:  http://members.aol.com/fvfolk/Part of the Fox Valley Folk Music & Storytelling Festival
September 5 & 6, 2004
Island Park, In Geneva, ILFind yourself immersed in the world of the great English and Scottish
ballads, led by publisher, performer, and educator, David M. Kleiman.  This
workshop, broken into four hour-long "sections", is chock full of music,
humor, history, honor, love, laughter, battles, bullies, brides, ghosts,
faeries, seers, and amazing stories and songs both serious and whimsical.Join workshop leader, David M. Kleiman, and panelist/performers Judy Cook,
John Roberts, and Heather Wood for an afternoon of:Section 1 - Introduction to the Great Ballads and The Collectors
We'll explore the origins of story-telling songs, Broadside (Black Letter)
ballads, oral literature, introduce the great collectors and interpreters of
the Ballads, and see how the ballads have infiltrated and influenced
Anglo-American pop culture over the last couple of centuries.Section 2 - What's behind the Ballad Stories? 
Is this story really history?  Live performances and discussion punctuate a
quick look at major ballad themes, real history as it is preserved in the
ballads, some supernatural happenings, and truly great legends.Section 3 - Singing Styles
Our fabulous panel of performer/commentators offers an insight into both the
preservation and reinterpretation of the musical traditions of the songs.
Live performances and recordings illustrate singing styles and accompaniment
choices. These are followed with a brief discussion of how the new recording
and digital technologies of the 20th and 21st centuries have both preserved
and changed the way we listen to, perform, and experience traditional music.Section 4 - Master Class
This is your turn.  Bring a ballad and recite it, sing it, read it, mime it,
or just sit and listen.  Get performance feedback from our panelists and
fellow participants.  Share in the discussion on text/lyric analysis for
performance.David, Judy, John, and Heather will all be available throughout the festival
weekend for continued discussions and much, much more singing!The "Child ballads" are the focus of the Boot Camp sessions.  These works
form a collection of orally-transmitted songs and lyrical poems, collated
and edited by Harvard professor Francis James Child in the late 19th century
and published in his magnum opus, "The English and Scottish Popular
Ballads."  Workshop leader David M. Kleiman has recently re-published this
five-volume work in a searchable, digital edition that includes new maps, a
place names index, digitized music notations, and new audio recordings of
some of the 305 "Child Ballads", making exploration of this wonderful
collection even more useable & exciting.Stop by our festival table for a demo of Heritage Collectors(tm) Digital
Editions.  Hope we'll see you there!David M. Kleiman
President & CEO
Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.

>> Does anyone see any reason to doubt that Sons of Levi (known, as
>> Malcolm and John pointed out, by a variety of titles) was originally
>> a Masonic song?
> Some versions include lines like
>       Come all ye Knight Templars of Malta
> Is this a Masonic appropriation or could the song go back to the
> historic Knights Templar?Somebody was deeply confused.  The order that controlled Malta from
the 1520s was the Knights of St John of Jerusalem, who were the order
that mostly benefited from the extirpation of the Templars 200 years
earlier.Masonic history is a fascinating exercise in often-quite-conscious
reinvention of a past that never was.  But that line would have been
a flat impossibility for any Mason of any rite.(The Knights of St John are currently a major obsession of mine,
for reasons I don't want to go into, but if anybody wants to natter
about them in any context I'm up for it).-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
fax 0870 055 4975   <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   CD-ROMs of Scottish
traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music, and Mac logic fonts

>  >> Does anyone see any reason to doubt that Sons of Levi (known, as
>>>  Malcolm and John pointed out, by a variety of titles) was originally
>>>  a Masonic song?
>>  Some versions include lines like
>>        Come all ye Knight Templars of Malta
>>  Is this a Masonic appropriation or could the song go back to the
>>  historic Knights Templar?
>
>Somebody was deeply confused.  The order that controlled Malta from
>the 1520s was the Knights of St John of Jerusalem, who were the order
>that mostly benefited from the extirpation of the Templars 200 years
>earlier.
>
>Masonic history is a fascinating exercise in often-quite-conscious
>reinvention of a past that never was.  But that line would have been
>a flat impossibility for any Mason of any rite....
>
>Jack Campin****
Found at
http://www.mastermason.com/raleighyorkrite/kt/kt.htmThe fourth, and last, of the York Rite Bodies of Masonry,
Commanderies of Knights Templar serves as the crowning glory in
completing the Christian Path towards Masonic Light. This is the only
recognized Masonic Body that has religious connotations, since it is
based on the Christian Religion and virtues. As a consequence, while
not all Masons will become Knight Templars, every Christian Mason
should to complete his Masonic journey. Today's Knight Templar is a
man dedicated to the living Christ, and the defense of the virtues
contained in the practices observed by all true Christians.In the Commandery, there are three 'degrees' or steps, which are
called Orders. These are The Illustrious Order of the Red Cross, The
Mediterranean Pass and Order of Malta and The Order of the Temple;
after the Orders of Knighthood and Chivalry as known in Europe before
the reformation. Hence, we are called Chivalric Masonry.
****This mixes Knights Templar and Malta in some way.--
john garst    [unmask]

>(2) My squib should cite a *very few* references.  I'm leaning toward
>
>Laws, Native American Balladry
>Wilgus, Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898
>
>However, the emphasis of the squib is African-American material.
>Neither of the above is devoted entirely to African-American
>balladry.  I'm not aware of a book that is, except those that treat
>specific ballads.
>
>I'm considering
>
>Scarborough, On the Trail of Negro Folk-Songs
>White, American Negro Folk-Songs (I have Guy Benton Johnson's copy!)
>Odum and Johnson, The Negro and His Songs, Negro Workaday Songs
>
>Four is too many.
>
>Also, none of the six works listed above are more recent than 1964.
>
>Suggestions?I'm consideringOliver, Songsters and Saints (1984)possibly as the sole citation devoted to African American ballads.--
john garst    [unmask]

John,FWIW I was always given to understand that there are three basic types of
folk song:Narrative - tells a tale - as per your definition
Dramatic - a dialogue between two people
Lyric - essentially a descriptive piece relating to an impression on the
singer, as you say, without any real plot.I think you should stick to something near these definitions, because
"ballad" will lead you into the quagmire of "song for dance" which is what
the word really means, and still does in languages other than English. Even
accepting that you will be writing for an anglophone readership, from what
you say you will be writing about stuff with African antecedents. As such,
in investigating song roots you may end up in the African "song for dance"
area, and how will you deal with that material? IMHO, stay clear of the word
"ballad"; it will just be a distraction. You will thereby also avoid the
unnecessary distraction of the epic, which is just a type of narrative song.Hope this helps.Simon

David Kleiman wrote:>This is to any ballad lover looking for something to do over Labor Day
>Weekend.
>
>Ballad Boot Camp
>Saturday September 4, 12:30-4:30 PM    Cost: $35.00
>Reservations at:  http://members.aol.com/fvfolk/
>
>Part of the
>
>Fox Valley Folk Music & Storytelling Festival
>September 5 & 6, 2004
>Island Park, In Geneva, IL
>
>Find yourself immersed in the world of the great English and Scottish
>ballads, led by publisher, performer, and educator, David M. Kleiman.  This
>workshop, broken into four hour-long "sections", is chock full of music,
>humor, history, honor, love, laughter, battles, bullies, brides, ghosts,
>faeries, seers, and amazing stories and songs both serious and whimsical.
>
>Join workshop leader, David M. Kleiman, and panelist/performers Judy Cook,
>John Roberts, and Heather Wood for an afternoon of:
>
>Section 1 - Introduction to the Great Ballads and The Collectors
>We'll explore the origins of story-telling songs, Broadside (Black Letter)
>ballads, oral literature, introduce the great collectors and interpreters of
>the Ballads, and see how the ballads have infiltrated and influenced
>Anglo-American pop culture over the last couple of centuries.
>
>Section 2 - What's behind the Ballad Stories?
>Is this story really history?  Live performances and discussion punctuate a
>quick look at major ballad themes, real history as it is preserved in the
>ballads, some supernatural happenings, and truly great legends.
>
>Section 3 - Singing Styles
>Our fabulous panel of performer/commentators offers an insight into both the
>preservation and reinterpretation of the musical traditions of the songs.
>Live performances and recordings illustrate singing styles and accompaniment
>choices. These are followed with a brief discussion of how the new recording
>and digital technologies of the 20th and 21st centuries have both preserved
>and changed the way we listen to, perform, and experience traditional music.
>
>Section 4 - Master Class
>This is your turn.  Bring a ballad and recite it, sing it, read it, mime it,
>or just sit and listen.  Get performance feedback from our panelists and
>fellow participants.  Share in the discussion on text/lyric analysis for
>performance.
>
>David, Judy, John, and Heather will all be available throughout the festival
>weekend for continued discussions and much, much more singing!
>
>The "Child ballads" are the focus of the Boot Camp sessions.  These works
>form a collection of orally-transmitted songs and lyrical poems, collated
>and edited by Harvard professor Francis James Child in the late 19th century
>and published in his magnum opus, "The English and Scottish Popular
>Ballads."  Workshop leader David M. Kleiman has recently re-published this
>five-volume work in a searchable, digital edition that includes new maps, a
>place names index, digitized music notations, and new audio recordings of
>some of the 305 "Child Ballads", making exploration of this wonderful
>collection even more useable & exciting.
>
>Stop by our festival table for a demo of Heritage Collectors(tm) Digital
>Editions.  Hope we'll see you there!
>
>David M. Kleiman
>President & CEO
>Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.
>
>
>
It's a long drive from BC to IL but I'd make it for this event  (if I
had some advance notice!).  Please let us all know if this will happen
again next year.Jon Bartlett

Jon,We're actually taking this show on the road.  I can come into any academic
institution, public library, and/or folk music society and do the workshop.I can use local talent, or bring along folks like Heather Wood (formerly of
the Young Tradition), etc.If you have the space and an interested group of 15-20 individuals give me
call.David M. Kleiman
President & CEO
Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On
Behalf Of Jon Bartlett
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 7:05 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Ballad Boot Camp - Fox Valley FestivalDavid Kleiman wrote:>This is to any ballad lover looking for something to do over Labor Day
>Weekend.
>
>Ballad Boot Camp
>Saturday September 4, 12:30-4:30 PM    Cost: $35.00
>Reservations at:  http://members.aol.com/fvfolk/
>
>Part of the
>
>Fox Valley Folk Music & Storytelling Festival
>September 5 & 6, 2004
>Island Park, In Geneva, IL
>
>Find yourself immersed in the world of the great English and Scottish
>ballads, led by publisher, performer, and educator, David M. Kleiman.  This
>workshop, broken into four hour-long "sections", is chock full of music,
>humor, history, honor, love, laughter, battles, bullies, brides, ghosts,
>faeries, seers, and amazing stories and songs both serious and whimsical.
>
>Join workshop leader, David M. Kleiman, and panelist/performers Judy Cook,
>John Roberts, and Heather Wood for an afternoon of:
>
>Section 1 - Introduction to the Great Ballads and The Collectors
>We'll explore the origins of story-telling songs, Broadside (Black Letter)
>ballads, oral literature, introduce the great collectors and interpreters
of
>the Ballads, and see how the ballads have infiltrated and influenced
>Anglo-American pop culture over the last couple of centuries.
>
>Section 2 - What's behind the Ballad Stories?
>Is this story really history?  Live performances and discussion punctuate a
>quick look at major ballad themes, real history as it is preserved in the
>ballads, some supernatural happenings, and truly great legends.
>
>Section 3 - Singing Styles
>Our fabulous panel of performer/commentators offers an insight into both
the
>preservation and reinterpretation of the musical traditions of the songs.
>Live performances and recordings illustrate singing styles and
accompaniment
>choices. These are followed with a brief discussion of how the new
recording
>and digital technologies of the 20th and 21st centuries have both preserved
>and changed the way we listen to, perform, and experience traditional
music.
>
>Section 4 - Master Class
>This is your turn.  Bring a ballad and recite it, sing it, read it, mime
it,
>or just sit and listen.  Get performance feedback from our panelists and
>fellow participants.  Share in the discussion on text/lyric analysis for
>performance.
>
>David, Judy, John, and Heather will all be available throughout the
festival
>weekend for continued discussions and much, much more singing!
>
>The "Child ballads" are the focus of the Boot Camp sessions.  These works
>form a collection of orally-transmitted songs and lyrical poems, collated
>and edited by Harvard professor Francis James Child in the late 19th
century
>and published in his magnum opus, "The English and Scottish Popular
>Ballads."  Workshop leader David M. Kleiman has recently re-published this
>five-volume work in a searchable, digital edition that includes new maps, a
>place names index, digitized music notations, and new audio recordings of
>some of the 305 "Child Ballads", making exploration of this wonderful
>collection even more useable & exciting.
>
>Stop by our festival table for a demo of Heritage Collectors(tm) Digital
>Editions.  Hope we'll see you there!
>
>David M. Kleiman
>President & CEO
>Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.
>
>
>
It's a long drive from BC to IL but I'd make it for this event  (if I
had some advance notice!).  Please let us all know if this will happen
again next year.Jon Bartlett

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I have the following back issues of "Journal of
American Folklore": 357, 359, 360, 361, 362, and
368-376.I also have "Folklore" (The Journal of the Folklore
Society, England): Vol. 88, 1977, Nos. 1-2; Vol. 89,
1978-79, Nos. 1-2; Vol. 90, 1979, Nos. 1-2; Vol. 91,
1980, No. 2; Vol. 92, 1981, No. 2; and Vol. 94, 1983,
No. 1.I will send them to any academic institution or museum
in the US free,  Individuals in the US for UPS Ground
postage (about $15-- they're heavy), and institutions
or individuals elsewhere worldwide-- we'll talk.Please note that i'd like to send all 23 issues as a
LOT. My friend also collects large, heavy volumes, and
getting rid of extra items is taking enough time as it
is.We will be away until 12 September, so nothing will go
out until then. Thanks-- as they say-- for looking.Cliff Abrams

Fox Valley is a great festival in a nice setting along
the Fox River. Geneva, Illinois is, though, far from
Chicago without good public transport. A Metra train
will, I *think* get you from Chicago to Geneva, but
weekend scheduling is thin. Then it's a hike to the
park.If you fly, arrive at Midway. Much less crowded and
about an hour closer to where you want to go. Public
transport at both Midway and O'Hare will get you
downtown and from there to the Metra train-- an
odyssey of train, cab and foot that will take the best
part of one day. Best: Arrive Midway, rent a car.Geneva is a yuppie suburb and lodging is expensive.
Without a car you're fairly stuck.CA

Cliff,Thanks for the heads up. Does this mean that we'll see you
there?David M. Kleiman
Heritage Muse, Inc.

>John,
>
>FWIW I was always given to understand that there are three basic types of
>folk song:
>
>Narrative - tells a tale - as per your definition
>Dramatic - a dialogue between two people
>Lyric - essentially a descriptive piece relating to an impression on the
>singer, as you say, without any real plot.
>
>I think you should stick to something near these definitions, because
>"ballad" will lead you into the quagmire of "song for dance" which is what
>the word really means, and still does in languages other than English. Even
>accepting that you will be writing for an anglophone readership, from what
>you say you will be writing about stuff with African antecedents. As such,
>in investigating song roots you may end up in the African "song for dance"
>area, and how will you deal with that material? IMHO, stay clear of the word
>"ballad"; it will just be a distraction.Unfortunately, the subject I am given is "Ballad/Blues Ballad."  I
cannot avoid the term.  However, your points about avoiding quagmires
and distractions are well taken, and I think that I'll try to follow
that advice.  Another ballad-knowledgeable friend suggested, when I
told him that I was thinking of giving half of my allotted 2000 words
to the "ballad" (general) and half to the "ballad" (African
American), that I reduce the "general" allotment to about 300 words
and use the rest for "African American."  I think I'll try to follow
his suggestion as well, making the "general" part really superficial.
I do feel, however, that the existence of griots and epics in Africa
must be mentioned.>You will thereby also avoid the
>unnecessary distraction of the epic, which is just a type of narrative song.
>
>Hope this helps.Thank you.>
>Simon--
john garst    [unmask]

Re:Ten thousand Swedes ran through the weeds,
Chased by one Norwegian.etc.I just came across this:Pur un sul home en fuirent vint mil.
(Before a single man twenty thousand fled.)
   - Chanson de GuillaumeCited by Hugh Shields in "Impossibilities in Ballad Style" in The
Ballad Image, Ed. James Porter, 1983.--
john garst    [unmask]

On 8/25/04, John Garst wrote:>Re:
>
>Ten thousand Swedes ran through the weeds,
>Chased by one Norwegian.
>
>etc.
>
>
>I just came across this:
>
>Pur un sul home en fuirent vint mil.
>(Before a single man twenty thousand fled.)
>  - Chanson de Guillaume
>
>Cited by Hugh Shields in "Impossibilities in Ballad Style" in The
>Ballad Image, Ed. James Porter, 1983.Well -- consider the Song of Roland. There was Roland, dying,
and he *still* routed the whole Saracen army. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Well, every culture I've heard of has another type: essentially words
set to a dance tune (Old Joe  Clarke, Dance to Thy Daddy  etc.) not to
mention compilations of "floaters" such as Water is Wide.Am I the only one who gets frustrated by the usurpation of perfectly
good terms like "folk" and "ballad" and "tradition" and their
subsequrent conversion to meaningless rubbish?
dick greenhausJohn Garst wrote:>> John,
>>
>> FWIW I was always given to understand that there are three basic
>> types of
>> folk song:
>>
>> Narrative - tells a tale - as per your definition
>> Dramatic - a dialogue between two people
>> Lyric - essentially a descriptive piece relating to an impression on the
>> singer, as you say, without any real plot.
>>
>> I think you should stick to something near these definitions, because
>> "ballad" will lead you into the quagmire of "song for dance" which is
>> what
>> the word really means, and still does in languages other than
>> English. Even
>> accepting that you will be writing for an anglophone readership, from
>> what
>> you say you will be writing about stuff with African antecedents. As
>> such,
>> in investigating song roots you may end up in the African "song for
>> dance"
>> area, and how will you deal with that material? IMHO, stay clear of
>> the word
>> "ballad"; it will just be a distraction.
>
>
> Unfortunately, the subject I am given is "Ballad/Blues Ballad."  I
> cannot avoid the term.  However, your points about avoiding quagmires
> and distractions are well taken, and I think that I'll try to follow
> that advice.  Another ballad-knowledgeable friend suggested, when I
> told him that I was thinking of giving half of my allotted 2000 words
> to the "ballad" (general) and half to the "ballad" (African
> American), that I reduce the "general" allotment to about 300 words
> and use the rest for "African American."  I think I'll try to follow
> his suggestion as well, making the "general" part really superficial.
> I do feel, however, that the existence of griots and epics in Africa
> must be mentioned.
>
>> You will thereby also avoid the
>> unnecessary distraction of the epic, which is just a type of
>> narrative song.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>>
>> Simon
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

On 8/25/04, dick greenhaus wrote:>Well, every culture I've heard of has another type: essentially words
>set to a dance tune (Old Joe  Clarke, Dance to Thy Daddy  etc.) not to
>mention compilations of "floaters" such as Water is Wide.
>
>Am I the only one who gets frustrated by the usurpation of perfectly
>good terms like "folk" and "ballad" and "tradition" and their
>subsequrent conversion to meaningless rubbish?In a word, No.(Though I think "tradition" still has meaning, and "ballad" has
almost as much meaning as it ever did. It's "folk" that's well
and truly ruined.)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

>Well, every culture I've heard of has another type: essentially words
>set to a dance tune (Old Joe  Clarke, Dance to Thy Daddy  etc.) not to
>mention compilations of "floaters" such as Water is Wide.
>
>Am I the only one who gets frustrated by the usurpation of perfectly
>good terms like "folk" and "ballad" and "tradition" and their
>subsequrent conversion to meaningless rubbish?
>dick greenhausAs long as we have words, we will have problems with definitions.In my field, chemistry, "compound" represents a really fundamental
concept.  Even so, it does not have a generally agreed definition!--
john garst    [unmask]

Now there's a fruitfl field for study: ethnomusicoepistemplogy!John Garst wrote:>> Well, every culture I've heard of has another type: essentially words
>> set to a dance tune (Old Joe  Clarke, Dance to Thy Daddy  etc.) not to
>> mention compilations of "floaters" such as Water is Wide.
>>
>> Am I the only one who gets frustrated by the usurpation of perfectly
>> good terms like "folk" and "ballad" and "tradition" and their
>> subsequrent conversion to meaningless rubbish?
>> dick greenhaus
>
>
> As long as we have words, we will have problems with definitions.
>
> In my field, chemistry, "compound" represents a really fundamental
> concept.  Even so, it does not have a generally agreed definition!
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>
>
>

At 4:44 PM -0400 8/22/04, [unmask] wrote:>In a message dated 8/22/2004 8:24:55 PM GMT Daylight Time,
>[unmask] writes:
>
>>Does anyone see any reason to doubt that Sons of Levi (known, as
>>Malcolm and John pointed out, by a variety of titles) was originally
>>a Masonic song?
>>
>
>It is accepted that it was a Masonic song though by the late 19th
>Century had become regrded as an Orange song.I was not aware of this connection.  What is the evidence?Thanks.John

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>In a message dated 8/25/2004 9:19:05 PM GMT Daylight Time,
>[unmask] writes:
>
>>  >It is accepted that it was a Masonic song though by the late 19th
>>>Century had become regrded as an Orange song.
>>
>
>
>The evidence is that it was published on a sixteen column (8X2)
>sheet with fifteen other songs all of Orange or Masonic connection
>by Nicholson of Belfast before 1904 when the sheet was reviewed and
>described by EJ McKean in the Journal of the Irish Folk Song
>Society. In the same way, The Royal Robe, The Marksman's Journey,
>The Knight Templar's Dream, Brilliant Light, Sons of Levi, The true
>blues of Hall's Mill, all undoubtedly Masonic songs, were
>appropriated by Orangemen and published in song books such as  "The
>Crimson Banner Song Book".
>
>John MouldenThank you.It seems to me that this song has an extraordinary history of being
"appropriated" to various causes and service.John
--
john garst    [unmask]

In current popular usage, especially among radio DJs,
any slow song is a "ballad."  I think we lost the use
of that term even before "folk" began to be equated
with "people." Check the "folk" DJ playlists. If it's
sung by a human being, it's "folk" to most of them.
One program is even titled "It's All Folk," which, of
course, it ain't!
     Tony Barrand tells me he has given up using
"folksong" in his discussions of the genre and is now
using "vernacular song."  Trouble with that: he has to
define "vernacular" for most of his audiences. It
appears to be a losing battle.
     Sandy (the one in Connecticut)--- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]> wrote:> On 8/25/04, dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> >Well, every culture I've heard of has another type:
> essentially words
> >set to a dance tune (Old Joe  Clarke, Dance to Thy
> Daddy  etc.) not to
> >mention compilations of "floaters" such as Water is
> Wide.
> >
> >Am I the only one who gets frustrated by the
> usurpation of perfectly
> >good terms like "folk" and "ballad" and "tradition"
> and their
> >subsequrent conversion to meaningless rubbish?
>
> In a word, No.
>
> (Though I think "tradition" still has meaning, and
> "ballad" has
> almost as much meaning as it ever did. It's "folk"
> that's well
> and truly ruined.)
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

Damn!  Here I am to go into a lecture on the def. of folklore in 45
minutes, and here I wanted answers not questions!!  :-)DK Wilgus got around the question of "epic" by saying a (folk) ballad
is a song with narrative content and sung to a rounded melody.  (You
can often tell by the way ballads without melodies are printed in
stanzas, as opposed to the the epics).  Whatever you say: ballads
tell the stories.since I don't know much about epics, I find this def good (or good
enough).  In any case epics tend to be thousands of lines as opposed
to ballads, which rarely go over 30-50 4-line stanzas.While I would say that epics tend to be re-created according to
oral-formulaic processes, ballads probably are not (the variant texts
are far too stable).  In any case, you'll want to avoid that
discussion at least as far as definitions are concerned (i.e. you
don't want to define by criteria that are not observable).Who was it that said: "ballads" are so called because they were sold
(as broadsheets or chapbooks) by tghe same purveyors to the same
audience as the collections of dance tunes (hence "ballade")?  the
dance connection seems most tenuous except in etymology.In all the ballad commission talks (on ballad classification), no one
could come up with a better definition than Wilgus'. Some tried for
"medieval", but there is no proof of that, either, as we know.  (or
at least for the majority of what everybody calls "ballads.")I, too, lament the fuzzyness/inexactness of "folk" and "ballad", but
on the other hand in the trade at least there seems to be general
agreement on what to call the "items" when they show up, so we had
best deal with the terms.  A German scholar made a case for calling
them "group songs" (since only limited groups would sing any one
song, scarcely ever the "whole folk").  They still say "folk song" in
Germany, and his suggestions (as persuasive - AND ACCEPTED -  as they
are) are over 30 yeras old.Your real problem will be "blues ballads", since these often refer to
the (known) narrative more than actually narrate it (later in the
semester I'll be playing Taj Mahal's "Talking John Henry", and
contrasting it to "John Henry" fex).  The clue here seems to be the
"citing" of the narrative (which lies then outside the text of the
song): for my dough such belong partly with the ballads (for the
telling of the story), although formally (legalistically) they would
not be ballads.What can I say but "good luck."Keep talking.  maybe someone can come up with a solution...David
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

<<In current popular usage, especially among radio DJs,
any slow song is a "ballad."  I think we lost the use
of that term even before "folk" began to be equated
with "people.">>Yep; I've seen the reference as early as the 1930s, and I suspect it's a
good deal older than that.<< Check the "folk" DJ playlists. If it's
sung by a human being, it's "folk" to most of them.
One program is even titled "It's All Folk," which, of
course, it ain't!
     Tony Barrand tells me he has given up using
"folksong" in his discussions of the genre and is now
using "vernacular song."  Trouble with that: he has to
define "vernacular" for most of his audiences. It
appears to be a losing battle.>>A lot of us used "traditional song" until a couple of years ago
singer-songwriter Greg Brown won the Grammy for "Best Traditional Folk
Album". Just last year I had some character tell me, "I know it's a
traditional song; I wrote it myself."Words matter, dammit.Peace,
Paul

>      Tony Barrand tells me he has given up using
>"folksong" in his discussions of the genre and is now
>using "vernacular song."  Trouble with that: he has to
>define "vernacular" for most of his audiences. It
>appears to be a losing battle.I, too, prefer "vernacular," in my case because I've decided that the
distinction between folk and popular song is not useful.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Thank you, David, for a very thoughtful reply.On "epic" vs "ballad," I've done some looking around and I find that
everyone (including me) makes a distinction between (1) the long,
heroic items that span a lot of time and many events and (2) the
shorter ones that often focus on a single event or a small cluster of
related events.  However, I also find that the term "epic ballad" is
commonplace and is used by scholars of epics as well as ballads.  My
suspicion is that the earlier, and still valid, terms are "epic
ballad" and "popular ballad" (Child's category), and that these have
eroded to "epic" and "ballad" in the vocabularies of many.>Damn!  Here I am to go into a lecture on the def. of folklore in 45
>minutes, and here I wanted answers not questions!!  :-)
>
>DK Wilgus got around the question of "epic" by saying a (folk) ballad
>is a song with narrative content and sung to a rounded melody.  (You
>can often tell by the way ballads without melodies are printed in
>stanzas, as opposed to the the epics).  Whatever you say: ballads
>tell the stories.
>
>since I don't know much about epics, I find this def good (or good
>enough).  In any case epics tend to be thousands of lines as opposed
>to ballads, which rarely go over 30-50 4-line stanzas.
>
>While I would say that epics tend to be re-created according to
>oral-formulaic processes, ballads probably are not (the variant texts
>are far too stable).  In any case, you'll want to avoid that
>discussion at least as far as definitions are concerned (i.e. you
>don't want to define by criteria that are not observable).
>
>Who was it that said: "ballads" are so called because they were sold
>(as broadsheets or chapbooks) by tghe same purveyors to the same
>audience as the collections of dance tunes (hence "ballade")?  the
>dance connection seems most tenuous except in etymology.
>
>In all the ballad commission talks (on ballad classification), no one
>could come up with a better definition than Wilgus'. Some tried for
>"medieval", but there is no proof of that, either, as we know.  (or
>at least for the majority of what everybody calls "ballads.")
>
>I, too, lament the fuzzyness/inexactness of "folk" and "ballad", but
>on the other hand in the trade at least there seems to be general
>agreement on what to call the "items" when they show up, so we had
>best deal with the terms.  A German scholar made a case for calling
>them "group songs" (since only limited groups would sing any one
>song, scarcely ever the "whole folk").  They still say "folk song" in
>Germany, and his suggestions (as persuasive - AND ACCEPTED -  as they
>are) are over 30 yeras old.
>
>Your real problem will be "blues ballads", since these often refer to
>the (known) narrative more than actually narrate it (later in the
>semester I'll be playing Taj Mahal's "Talking John Henry", and
>contrasting it to "John Henry" fex).  The clue here seems to be the
>"citing" of the narrative (which lies then outside the text of the
>song): for my dough such belong partly with the ballads (for the
>telling of the story), although formally (legalistically) they would
>not be ballads.
>
>What can I say but "good luck."
>
>Keep talking.  maybe someone can come up with a solution...
>
>David
>--
>
>David G. Engle
>
>email:  [unmask]
>web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
>        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang
>
>         The Traditional Ballad Index:
>         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>
>-----
john garst    [unmask]

On 8/26/04, John Garst wrote:>Thank you, David, for a very thoughtful reply.
>
>On "epic" vs "ballad," I've done some looking around and I find that
>everyone (including me) makes a distinction between (1) the long,
>heroic items that span a lot of time and many events and (2) the
>shorter ones that often focus on a single event or a small cluster of
>related events.  However, I also find that the term "epic ballad" is
>commonplace and is used by scholars of epics as well as ballads.  My
>suspicion is that the earlier, and still valid, terms are "epic
>ballad" and "popular ballad" (Child's category), and that these have
>eroded to "epic" and "ballad" in the vocabularies of many.But then what do you say of "A Gest of Robyn Hode?" 456 stanzas,
1836 lines, is closer to Beowulf (3182 lines) than most versions
of "Barbara Allen" (less than 100 lines). And it's multi-episodic,
too. And there is no evidence it was ever sung, whereas Beowulf
certainly was!And yet the Gest is in Child.Nor is it really possible to distinguish the content in some way.
Compare "The Song of Roland" with "Johnnie o' Braidesley":   Roland                      Johnnie
   ------                      -------
1. Oliver warns Roland         Mother warns Johnnie
   against battle              hunting
2. Roland fights anyway        Johnnie hunts anyway
3. Roland faces overwhelming   Johnnie faces overwhelming
   numbers                     numbers
4. Roland wins the battle      Johnnie wins the battle
   but dies in the process     but dies in the processDifferent country, different historical importance, same plot.I *do* see fundamental differences between Roland and Johnnie,
in that the former was transmitted professionally and the
latter orally and popularly (essentially the difference between
classical and folk music). But we have to be cautious about
how we use this distinction -- because Child published epic
ballads (at least the Geste, but probably some others) as
popular, and published many other "popular ballads" that never
had any place in tradition.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Bob,I really like your definition of traditional ballad, "a traditional
song in which something happens."  That allows the inclusion of items
that are so mixed up or abbreviated that they don't tell a coherent
story and yet something does happen.  However, I think I'm going to
stick with "tells a story" for the squib I'm working on.>On 8/26/04, John Garst wrote:
>
>>Thank you, David, for a very thoughtful reply.
>>
>>On "epic" vs "ballad," I've done some looking around and I find that
>>everyone (including me) makes a distinction between (1) the long,
>>heroic items that span a lot of time and many events and (2) the
>>shorter ones that often focus on a single event or a small cluster of
>>related events.  However, I also find that the term "epic ballad" is
>>commonplace and is used by scholars of epics as well as ballads.  My
>>suspicion is that the earlier, and still valid, terms are "epic
>>ballad" and "popular ballad" (Child's category), and that these have
>>eroded to "epic" and "ballad" in the vocabularies of many.
>
>But then what do you say of "A Gest of Robyn Hode?"
>....
>Bob WaltzI say that there will always be boundary issues and that Child was as
just as likely to err as the rest of us.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 8/26/04, John Garst wrote:>Bob,
>
>I really like your definition of traditional ballad, "a traditional
>song in which something happens."  That allows the inclusion of items
>that are so mixed up or abbreviated that they don't tell a coherent
>story and yet something does happen.  However, I think I'm going to
>stick with "tells a story" for the squib I'm working on.
>
>>On 8/26/04, John Garst wrote:
>>
>>>Thank you, David, for a very thoughtful reply.
>>>
>>>On "epic" vs "ballad," I've done some looking around and I find that
>>>everyone (including me) makes a distinction between (1) the long,
>>>heroic items that span a lot of time and many events and (2) the
>>>shorter ones that often focus on a single event or a small cluster of
>>>related events.  However, I also find that the term "epic ballad" is
>>>commonplace and is used by scholars of epics as well as ballads.  My
>>>suspicion is that the earlier, and still valid, terms are "epic
>>>ballad" and "popular ballad" (Child's category), and that these have
>>>eroded to "epic" and "ballad" in the vocabularies of many.
>>
>>But then what do you say of "A Gest of Robyn Hode?"
>>....
>>Bob Waltz
>
>I say that there will always be boundary issues and that Child was as
>just as likely to err as the rest of us.OK, I can live with this. It makes things tougher when dealing with
types who think Child defined the ballad, though. :-)Ultimately, I think most of us say, "I know a ballad when I see
one." Problem is, while I trust most of the people around here,
we're a rather small subset of the wide world. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Paul Oliver, Songsters and Saints(1) p 230, referring to Unfortunate Rake/Dying Cowboy/St. James Infirmary:"Publication in Wayman's Song Sheets undoubtedly encouraged its
circulation as a jazz song rather than as a ballad."Clearly, this refers to a publication of "St. James Infirmary" ("jazz
song").  Can anyone point me to a copy of this publication?(2) p 231, in connection with "John Henry":"Competitions with steam drills are known to have taken place and
even to have been won by the steel-driver."I'm very interested in this, but I don't know of documentation or
testimony of  competition between a man, other than John Henry, and a
steam drill.  Of course, that means that I don't know anything about
instances in which the man won either.Can anyone help identify Paul's sources?Perhaps someone could ask him for me.Thanks,John--
john garst    [unmask]

Child 85A (Lady Alice) is the Dixon/Bell (broadside?) text, compared with two from Notes & Queries
(Vol 1 2nd Series (18) May 3 1856 p 354 and Vol 1 2nd S. (21) May 24 1856 p 418). The contributor of
the last named, one Edw. Hawkins, added "This old song was refined and modernised by the late
Richard Westall, R. A."Westall (1765-1836) was an illustrator and portrait painter (he did publish one book of his own
poems). Does anybody know exactly what connection he may have had with Lady Alice/Giles Collins?The Notes and Queries entries, incidentally, can be seen in facsimile at the Internet Library of
Early Journals:http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ilej/image1.pl?item=page&seq=1&size=1&id=nq.1856.5.3.1.18.x.354http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ilej/image1.pl?item=page&seq=1&size=1&id=nq.1856.5.24.1.21.x.418Malcolm Douglas

This is only a test.  In the even that this had been an actual posting
about a ballad, you would have been alerted at this time.

This is a reply test, had this been a real reply to a real posting we would be discussing Child, aboriginal throat singing or Cicadas...and maybe ballads.Liz in New Hampshire, where work ceased on an ark after 3 consecutive days of sun.-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Miller [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:58 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Test #101This is only a test.  In the even that this had been an actual posting
about a ballad, you would have been alerted at this time.

Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]> writes:
>Liz in New Hampshire, where work ceased on an ark after 3 consecutive days of sun.
>It could be a trick; construction is ongoing here in Maine!Cheers
Jamie

Not a good sign... this is what comes from  a great many people worrying about ground water levels- we have willed ourselves into a rainy season!-----Original Message-----
From: James Moreira [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 2:54 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Test #101Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]> writes:
>Liz in New Hampshire, where work ceased on an ark after 3 consecutive days of sun.
>It could be a trick; construction is ongoing here in Maine!Cheers
Jamie

Hi, I've been trying to find the complete words to "In an Anarchistic Garret".
Shep Ginandes sings two verses on his self-produced (later Electra)
recording, but it seems to me there is much more than this. If I
remember correctly, some subset of the words were in the "Jewish Center
Songster" (but I can't find my copy of this, in any case). Where and when
is it from? I *think* I remember singing it at camp in the mid 1950's. Any help will be appreciated!   John--
     John Cowles             [unmask]
     Optimization Technology Manager
Office: 1-972-497-4375       HPTC Applications & Solutions
Home:   1-972-596-6223       Hewlett-Packard
Mobil:  1-214-718-3741       3000 Waterview Pkwy.
Fax:    1-972-497-4848       Richardson, TX  75080

Hi-
It's in the Digital Tradition (at mudcat.org). Search on Sister Jenny's.
As far as I know, there are only the two verses.dick greenhausJohn Cowles wrote:>Hi,
>
> I've been trying to find the complete words to "In an Anarchistic Garret".
>Shep Ginandes sings two verses on his self-produced (later Electra)
>recording, but it seems to me there is much more than this. If I
>remember correctly, some subset of the words were in the "Jewish Center
>Songster" (but I can't find my copy of this, in any case). Where and when
>is it from? I *think* I remember singing it at camp in the mid 1950's.
>
> Any help will be appreciated!
>
>   John
>
>--
>     John Cowles             [unmask]
>     Optimization Technology Manager
>Office: 1-972-497-4375       HPTC Applications & Solutions
>Home:   1-972-596-6223       Hewlett-Packard
>Mobil:  1-214-718-3741       3000 Waterview Pkwy.
>Fax:    1-972-497-4848       Richardson, TX  75080
>
>
>

Dear Readers,Do you know this old sea chantey:"There were two lofty ships from old England came
Blow high, blow low, and so sailed we
One was the Prince of Luther and the other Prince of Wales
Down along the Coast of High Barbary"I have read on the internet (!) that this composition is attributed to
Charles Dibdin (1745-1814).  Do you know if this is true?Thanks,
A. Miller
Woodside, CA

<< I've been trying to find the complete words to "In an Anarchistic
Garret".
Shep Ginandes sings two verses on his self-produced (later Electra)
recording, but it seems to me there is much more than this. If I
remember correctly, some subset of the words were in the "Jewish Center
Songster" (but I can't find my copy of this, in any case). Where and when
is it from? I *think* I remember singing it at camp in the mid 1950's. Any help will be appreciated!>>Let me guess...was the camp run by YPSL?Is it possible that this is the same song as "It's Sister Jenny's Turn to
Throw the Bomb"? If so, the words are at:http://engstrom.best.vwh.net/songbook/frame.htmlLook under "Satirical and Sectarian Songs", the second list on the left-hand
side, for "It's Sister Jenny's...". I suspect, though, that if it's the same
song, that these are the same words Ginandes sang.Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Great stuff! Thanks for the link.Paul (the second, or is it third?)At 01:40 AM 8/28/2004, you wrote:
>Is it possible that this is the same song as "It's Sister Jenny's Turn to
>Throw the Bomb"? If so, the words are at:
>
>http://engstrom.best.vwh.net/songbook/frame.html
>
>Look under "Satirical and Sectarian Songs", the second list on the left-hand
>side, for "It's Sister Jenny's...". I suspect, though, that if it's the same
>song, that these are the same words Ginandes sang.Paul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

In a message dated 8/28/04 2:33:26 AM, [unmask] writes:<< http://www.folkinfo.org/topic.asp?topic_id=845&pagenum=1&reverse=False&
X=3 >>

Hi!        It appears that everyone will be back from vacation after Sept.
1. (At least based on the number of auctions on Ebay) :-)        SONGSTERS        Sorry - None this week :-(        MISCELLANEOUS        2265390117 - Singin' Gatherin', magazine article about American Folk
Song Festival in Ashland, Kentucky, 1942, $3.99 (ends Aug-31-04 20:00:20 PDT)        SONGBOOKS        6921829919 - The Hobo in Song and Poetry by Anderson, 1930s, $35
(ends Aug-29-04 08:48:07 PDT)        6921952125 - Folk Songs of Australia by Meredith & Anderson, 1979,
$1.99 (ends Aug-29-04 18:09:50 PDT)        4032526212 - GEMS OF SCOTTISH SONG, 1887, $3.99 (ends Aug-29-04
18:14:30 PDT)        6921549251 - AMERICAN BALLADS AND SONGS by Pound, 1922, $5 (ends
Aug-29-04 22:15:19 PDT)        6922754732 - Folk Songs of the South by Cox, 1925, $9.99 (ends
Aug-29-04 22:22:16 PDT)        6921323757 - The HOBO'S HORNBOOK by Milburn, 1930, $9.50 (ends
Aug-30-04 14:00:00 PDT)        6921725071 - CHILDREN'S SINGING GAMES ny Gomme, 1894, $99.99 (ends
Aug-30-04 19:00:52 PDT)        3744621359 - The Legendary Ballads of England & Scotland by
Roberts, 1878, 1.99 GBP (ends Aug-31-04 09:48:55 PDT)        6921251217 - Ballads & Lyrical Pieces by Scott, 1807, $59.95 (ends
Aug-31-04 18:10:00 PDT)        6922814733 - Folksingers and folksongs in america by Lawless, 1960,
$8 (ends Sep-01-04 08:53:10 PDT)        6921460818 - SONGSTERS & SAINTS VOCAL TRADITIONS ON RACE RECORDS
by Oliver, 1984, 2.50 GBP (ends Sep-01-04 14:33:07 PDT)        3744515410 - 3 songbooks with only one of real interest (33 PRISON
and MOUNTAIN SONGS, 1932), $4.75 (ends Sep-01-04 20:12:45 PDT)        7918616336 - Ballads and Ballad-Plays by Hampden, 1931, 2 GBP
(ends Sep-02-04 11:49:55 PDT)        6922616464 - DERBYSHIRE BALLADS, 1867, 20 GBP (ends Sep-02-04
12:45:26 PDT)        3744045115 - Chantez Encore Folksongs of French South Louisiana
by Gilmore, 1984, 3.99 GBP (ends Sep-02-04 13:40:15 PDT)        6922025886 - Mexican Border Ballads and Other Lore by Boatright,
1946, $9.99 (ends Sep-02-04 19:30:00 PDT)        3744813953 - SCHIRMER'S AMERICAN FOLK SERIES #1 (Folksongs from
the Kentucky Highlands by Combs), 1939, $9.99 (ends Sep-03-04 02:02:46 PDT)        3744813964 - SCHIRMER'S AMERICAN FOLK SERIES #14 (SONGS OF THE HILL
FOLK-12 BALLADS FROM KENTUCKY, VIRGINIA, & NORTH CAROLINA by Niles), 1939,
$9.99 (ends Sep-03-04 02:03:03 PDT)        3744813981 - SCHIRMER'S AMERICAN FOLK SERIES #15 (SONGS OF BEECH
MOUNTAIN by Matteson), 1939, $9.99 (ends Sep-03-04 02:03:20 PDT)        3744813995 - SCHIRMER'S AMERICAN FOLK SERIES #16 (TEN CHRISTMAS
CAROLS FROM THE SOUTHERN APPALACHIAN MOUNTAINS by Niles), 1939, $9.99
(ends Sep-03-04 02:03:37 PDT)        3744814006 - SCHIRMER'S AMERICAN FOLK SERIES #17 (MORE SONGS OF THE
HILL-FOLK by Niles, 1939, $9.99 (ends Sep-03-04 02:03:54 PDT)        3744814022 - SCHIRMER'S AMERICAN FOLK SERIES #18 (BALLADS, CAROLS,
AND TRAGIC LEGENDS by Niles), 1939, $9.99 (ends Sep-03-04 02:04:11 PDT)        3744814030 - SCHIRMER'S AMERICAN FOLK SERIES #19 (COUNTRY SONGS
OF VERMONT by Flanders), 1939, $9.99 (ends Sep-03-04 02:04:28 PDT)        3744814036 - SCHIRMER'S AMERICAN FOLK SERIES #20 (BALLADS, LOVE
SONGS, AND TRAGIC LEGENDS FROM THE SOUTHERN APPALACHIAN MOUNTAINS by
Niles), 1939, $9.99 (ends Sep-03-04 02:04:45 PDT)        6922792098 - Scottish Nursery Rhymes by Montgomery, 1946, 2.99
GBP (ends Sep-03-04 06:56:00 PDT)        6922861473 - Minstrelsy of The Scottish Border by Scott, 3
volumes, 1968 reprint, $49.99 (ends Sep-03-04 11:46:29 PDT)        3927822156 - OLD TIME BALLADS and COWBOY SONGS by Pack, $8 (ends
Sep-04-04 10:45:05 PDT)        6922240479 - Ancient Scots Ballads with The Traditional Airs to
Which They Were Want to be Sung by Eyre-Todd, 15 GBP (ends Sep-04-04
16:38:47 PDT)        6922347401 - The Ballads and Songs of Yorkshire by Ingledew, 1860,
30 GBP (ends Sep-04-04 21:40:51 PDT)        6922354709 - The Black-Letter Broadside Ballad by Rollins, 1919,
42 GBP (ends Sep-04-04 22:52:33 PDT)        6922562849 - KING JOHN AND THE ABBOT OF CANTERBURY, 12 GBP (ends
Sep-05-04 10:54:24 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sandy:Does your recent _Drive Dull Care Away_ subsume or incorporate  your earlier _Folksongs of Prince Edward Island?_EdP.S.  What is your email address?

Dear Ed:
No, about half the songs in TWENTY-ONE FOLKSONGS FROM P.E.I. will not be found in DRIVE DULL CARE AWAY.  It could be said, though, that the Sandy Ives of DDCA unmercifully raided and stole from the Edward D. Ives of 21, but since it was all in the
family it did not result in an action of any kind.
And my email address is <[unmask]>RegardsSandy.

And CAMSCO Music will be happy to sell anyone a copy of "Drive Dull Care
Away" (WITH the accompanying CD!) for  a measly $20 (plus actual
shipping cost.)
Good reading and good listening,dick greenhaus
[unmask]Sandy Ives wrote:>Dear Ed:
>No, about half the songs in TWENTY-ONE FOLKSONGS FROM P.E.I. will not be found in DRIVE DULL CARE AWAY.  It could be said, though, that the Sandy Ives of DDCA unmercifully raided and stole from the Edward D. Ives of 21, but since it was all in the
>family it did not result in an action of any kind.
>And my email address is <[unmask]>
>
>Regards
>
>Sandy.
>
>
>

Sandy:Hell, I was even more shameless when I edited the second edition of _Erotic Muse._Anything for a buck --I should add here that I found myself reading _Drive Dull Care Away_ with real pleasure.  It reminded me of W. Roy Mackenzie's _Quest of the Ballad_ and some of Helen Creighton's work.  (You folks of the Northeast do enjoy telling stories.)EdP.S.  I omitted the underscore from the address.  Hence the call for help.----- Original Message -----
From: Sandy Ives <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, August 29, 2004 4:25 pm
Subject: Re: Message for Sandy Ives> Dear Ed:
> No, about half the songs in TWENTY-ONE FOLKSONGS FROM P.E.I. will not be
> found in DRIVE DULL CARE AWAY.  It could be said, though, that the Sandy
> Ives of DDCA unmercifully raided and stole from the Edward D. Ives of 21,
> but since it was all in the
> family it did not result in an action of any kind.
> And my email address is <[unmask]>
>
> Regards
>
> Sandy.
>

Dear ballad-law,Those interested in Farmer's 1897 5vol. _Merry Songs & Ballads Prior
to 1800_, here are links to 300dpi black & white PDFs of the volumes.
Be warned that each is a little under 4MB.                      http://tinyurl.com/5g6qf                      http://tinyurl.com/6qw4x                      http://tinyurl.com/5blbk                      http://tinyurl.com/4xty2                      http://tinyurl.com/6xhgtDavid, I will have to mail the 8bid TIFFs they are 600MB each and
can't be FTPed.Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~
My bawdy songs, toasts and recitations website: www.immortalia.com

`

Jean Ritchie has a version of Barb'ry Ellen in the "Newport Folk Festival Songbook",  and in her notes she states:
    "In 1666 Samuel Pepys wrote of his pleasure in hearing a lady sing the "little Scotch song of Barb'ry Allen." From that time and from that country, "Barb'ry allen" has traveled all over the world and there are almost as many differing accounts of her story as there are people who know it.  In my family, the surname of "Allen" became a middle name and we know her as "Barb'ry Ellen."
   Does the version that Samuel Pepys wrote of exist? If so where could I find it?  If not what is the oldest known written version?Sammy Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sammy Rich" <[unmask]><<Jean Ritchie has a version of Barb'ry Ellen in the "Newport Folk Festival
Songbook",  and in her notes she states:
    "In 1666 Samuel Pepys wrote of his pleasure in hearing a lady sing the
"little Scotch song of Barb'ry Allen." From that time and from that country,
"Barb'ry allen" has traveled all over the world and there are almost as many
differing accounts of her story as there are people who know it.  In my
family, the surname of "Allen" became a middle name and we know her as
"Barb'ry Ellen."
   Does the version that Samuel Pepys wrote of exist? If so where could I
find it?  If not what is the oldest known written version?>>The oldest version cited in the Traditional Ballad Index is from "Tea Table
Miscellany", 1740.Peace,
Paul

On 2004/08/30 at 06:18:06PM -0500, John Mehlberg wrote:> Dear ballad-law,
>
> Those interested in Farmer's 1897 5vol. _Merry Songs & Ballads Prior
> to 1800_, here are links to 300dpi black & white PDFs of the volumes.
> Be warned that each is a little under 4MB.        [ ... ]> David, I will have to mail the 8bid TIFFs they are 600MB each and
> can't be FTPed.        ????????        I have used FTP for files over 1 GB.  There is no size
limitation for FTP (other than perhaps a maximum file size on the
sending or receiving system, or perhaps a timeout problem with some
connections.)        *However* -- many ISPs set a maximum mailbox size of 10 MB, so
your 600 MB e-mail would be a major problem in that case.        And, I know that *I* have an incoming e-mail size limit of 30 K,
as the common virii tend to start just a bit over that size and go on up
to well over 100 K.  It is the only way to keep virii out of the mailing
lists that I host, as the common virus scanners don't run on my system
(which is not vulnerable to the common Windows virii.)        Or did you mean *snail*-mail?  You are considering mailing
either photocopies, or perhaps a single CD-ROM for each TIFF?        Just some considerations.
                DoN.P.S.    The 1-bit ones which you posted are quite well done.        Thanks.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Bronson (II.321) quotes "the black-letter broadside of Pepys's day", which
means 50 years or so before Ramsay.  Which text is this??

MEHLBERG
> David, I will have to mail the 8bid TIFFs they are 600MB each and
> can't be FTPed.NICHOLS
        ????????        I have used FTP for files over 1 GB.  There is no size
limitation for FTP (other than perhaps a maximum file size on the
sending or receiving system, or perhaps a timeout problem with some
connections.)MEHLBERG
To upload 3GB worth of files at work will take days and slow down the
DSL connection for others on the network.  Hence I will snail-mail a
DVD of the 3GB worth of compressed 8bit grayscale TIFFs of the 5vol
Farmer.I don't have the 5vol _Merry Songs & Ballads_.  I sold my copy back in
2002.  These scans have been sitting around in my digital "Archives"
since then.  I uncovered the old scans of the set when I dug out the
1858 _United Minstrel Songster_ that I passed on to someone on this
list.  The PDF of that songster (at 400dpi) should be available on my
website later in the week..David Kleinman I am uploading the 1876_Choyce Drollery_ edited by
Ebsworth to your FTP site.  It is done at 600dpi black & white except
for the title pages which are in color.  The size is ~222MB in a
compressed RAR file.  If you OCR the texts, I would like a plain text
version.   I will post a link to the PDF of the page images later.Does anyone want the raw scans of the _Choyce Drollery_?  I can FTP it
or mail a DVD or CD.If anybody wants to OCR the 1812 _The Festival of Love, or A
Collection of Cytherean Poems_ 4th edition (only three known copies),
I have this available and can likewise FTP it or send it to you on CD.I have a few more rare & unusual songbooks which I will make available
when I have the time to scan them.
.
Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~
PS  If anyone wants a copy of www.immortalia.com, I can snail-mail you
the most recent version on 5CDs  or one DVD.   This will include all
of my bawdy song books, manuscript items, field recordings
...everything ... including many modern songbooks necessary for
research into bawdy songs.
`

---- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 31 August 2004 17:29
Subject: Re: Barb'ry Ellen> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sammy Rich" <[unmask]>
>
> <<Jean Ritchie has a version of Barb'ry Ellen in the "Newport Folk Festival
> Songbook",  and in her notes she states:
>     "In 1666 Samuel Pepys wrote of his pleasure in hearing a lady sing the
> "little Scotch song of Barb'ry Allen." From that time and from that country,
> "Barb'ry allen" has traveled all over the world and there are almost as many
> differing accounts of her story as there are people who know it.  In my
> family, the surname of "Allen" became a middle name and we know her as
> "Barb'ry Ellen."
>    Does the version that Samuel Pepys wrote of exist? If so where could I
> find it?  If not what is the oldest known written version?>>
>
> The oldest version cited in the Traditional Ballad Index is from "Tea Table
> Miscellany", 1740.The authority for Barbara Allen's appearance in Ramsay's Miscellany was William Chappell; Child
seems not to have seen that edition, and prints instead the text from the edition of 1763.The ballad was printed in England rather earlier; likely at around the time Pepys mentioned it, but
we don't know that for certain, nor, so far as I know, does any example survive. The late Bruce
Olson reproduced a London text, as reprinted in Roxburghe Ballads II, which he dates to "1690 at the
earliest", at his website:http://users.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT2.HTM#BARBALLNHe also gives the texts of two earlier broadside songs, one of which, The Ruined Lovers (1663-74),
he suspected was the model on which Barbara Allen was based.I think it was Chappell or Ebsworth who pointed out that "Scotch", like "Northern", didn't
necessarily refer to the place of origin of a song or tune, but to its style; whether or not that
was special pleading (Chappell in particular spent some effort in demonstrating -not invariably with
justification- that many songs claimed as Scottish were really English) I wouldn't know.Malcolm Douglas

Murray:I checked out this song in my Bronson, I have the all in one book variety, and yes the opening paragraph does refer to Pepys, much like the Jean Ritchie comment, I posted earlier, then later it comes back to the Blackletter Broadside of Pepys day and gives only two lines:"With scornful eye she looked downe,
 Her cheeke with laughter swellin."None of the tunes or texts, some twenty in all mention the Pepys Broadside.The other maddening thing is to try and find the text in the Ramsay's TTM.  If you don't know the first line of the version they use, it requires a read through the entire book to try and find the one it refers to!Thanks to all for the info regarding this sweetheart.SRich

Hi folks:I'm having a middle-aged moment; I cannot for the life of me remember the
name of that song wherein the fellow rides up to the young lady and asks her
pleasure; she replies that what she desires lies between his legs. He gets
down, hot as a pistol; she hops on the horse, tells him that he mistook her
meaning, and rides away. What is the title, and do you remember who recorded
it?The reason it's a rush request is that I'm hoping to play the song on the
air later today. Thanks in advance! Oh, reply off-list, natch.Peace,
Paul

> I'm having a middle-aged moment; I cannot for the life of me remember the
> name of that song wherein the fellow rides up to the young lady and asks her
> pleasure; she replies that what she desires lies between his legs. He gets
> down, hot as a pistol; she hops on the horse, tells him that he mistook her
> meaning, and rides away. What is the title, and do you remember who recorded
> it?
> The reason it's a rush request is that I'm hoping to play the song on the
> air later today. Thanks in advance! Oh, reply off-list, natch.That sounds like "Lovely Joan" (in the English Book of Penguin
Folksongs) - except that there's no mistake on Joan's part:   She's robbed him of his horse and ring,
   and left him to rage in the meadows green.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

--- Jane Keefer <[unmask]> wrote:> Jean Redpath does a version  of the song, which she
 indicates
> came to her via Jeannie Roberson & Ian Sinclair.
 Robertson
> version is titled  "Take the buckles from your shoes
(tak' the
>  buckles fae yer' sheen) and has some fairly bawdy
 references
>  that Redpath notes were not present in the Lyle
version.The Fisher Family (Archie, Ray, Cilla) on an early
recording ('60s, I think) sang a combined song "What's
Poor Mary Weeping For?" and "Bonnie Lassie-o" -- the
"Bonnie Lassie-o" words are to the same tune as "The
Shearin's No For You" and are included (at least
partially) in Jean Redpath's version of the song, but
aren't really part of the main theme of
"Kelvingrove/The Shearin's No For You" . I got my
Kelvingrove words from Dick Gaughan's version, but I'm
not sure if he actually recorded it.The Kelvingrove version has the laddie marching away
after threatening the poor pregnant lass with marriage
instead of death. She says he threatened her with
death for not submitting to him; he says "I'll no kill
ye deid nor will I harm your pretty heid /  I will
marry you with speed, my bonnie lassie-o."Here's what the Fishers recorded --WHAT’S POOR MARY WEEPING
FOR / BONNIE LASSIE-O (Traditional -- but I don't have
the liner notes available)What’s poor Mary weeping for?
Weeping for, weeping for,
What’s poor Mary weeping for?
On a cold and a frosty morning.Because she wants to see her lad,
See her lad, see her lad.
Because she wants to see her lad
On a cold and a frosty morning.She buckled up her shoes and away she run
Away she run, away she run.
She buckled up her shoes and away she run
On a cold and a frosty morning.Tak’ the buckles fae your shoon, bonnie lassie-o
Tak’ the buckles fae your shoon, bonnie lassie-o
Tak’ the buckles fae your shoon, for you’ve married
sicca loon
That your dancing days are done, bonnie lassie-o.Tak’ the ribbons fae your hair, bonnie lassie-o
Tak’ the ribbons fae your hair, bonnie lassie-o
Tak’ the ribbons fae your hair, and cut off your
ringlets fair
For you’ve naught but want and care, bonnie lassie-o.Tak’ the floonces fae your knee, bonnie lassie-o
Tak’ the floonces fae your knee, bonnie lassie-o
Tak’ the floonces fae your knee, for it’s better far
for ye
To look ower your bairnies three, bonnie lassie-o.Linn"Life is short, but it's wide."=====
******************************************************************
Linn S. Schulz
Writing - Editing - Research - Print Design & Production
phone/fax 603-942-7604
62 Priest Road, Nottingham, NH 03290  USA******************************************************************__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now.
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Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]><<Frankie Armstrong sings a version where Joan explicitly states that he
mistook her meaning.
There is no mention of robbery, but she jumps on his horse "and away she
went galloping over the plains".   I don't specifically know of any
recordings,
but I'd be very surprised if she didn't record it.>>That turns out to be the song I was looking for. It's called "The Crafty
Maid's Policy", and it's on Armstrong's first LP on Topic, "Lovely on the
Water". Luckily, I have it, and will be airing it on the program this
afternoon, as part of a feature on songs about horses. (Tune in if you like;
www.kdhx.org , 2-4 pm central daylight time, 1900-2100 GMT). Thanks to all
who wrote with info!The version Armstrong sings, not really part of the "Lovely Joan" family,
was collected by Hammond from a Mrs. Russell in Upwey, Dorset in 1907.Peace,
Paul

Lou Killen has a version on the CD A Bonny Bunch
A L Lloyd has one on England and Her Traditional Songs...
Martin Carthy et al on the Cathy Chronicles
There is a version on Mudcat Blue Plate by LilanfairOn Sunday, August 1, 2004, at 11:58  AM, [unmask] wrote:> Frankie Armstrong sings a version where Joan explicitly states that he 
> mistook her meaning.
> There is no mention of robbery, but she jumps on his horse "and away 
> she went galloping over the plains".   I don't specifically know of 
> any recordings, but I'd be very surprised if she didn't record it.
>  
> Mark Gilston
>  
> In a message dated 8/1/2004 4:27:50 AM Central Standard Time, 
> [unmask] writes:
>
> tells him that he mistook her
> > meaning, and rides away. What is the title, and do you remember who 
> recorded
> > it?
> > The reason it's a rush request is that I'm hoping to play the song 
> on the
> > air later today. Thanks in advance! Oh, reply off-list, natch.
>
> That sounds like "Lovely Joan" (in the English Book of Penguin
> Folksongs) - except that there's no mistake on Joan's part:
>
>
>  
>
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy Emeritus
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: "George Madaus" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: Lovely Joan<<Lou Killen has a version on the CD A Bonny Bunch
A L Lloyd has one on England and Her Traditional Songs...
Martin Carthy et al on the Cathy Chronicles
There is a version on Mudcat Blue Plate by Lilanfair>>Thanks, all, but what I was looking for (and found) was "The Crafty Maid's
Policy" rather than "Lovely Joan".Peace,
Paul

Folks:I ran across this tonight.  Though the price is steep, the book is scarce and the ex libris marvelous.Ed
---------------------------------------------------------Bronson, Bertrand Harris (edited by)
The Singing Tradition of Child's Popular Ballads.
Princeton University Press, 1976. Francis James Child's 'English and Scottish Popular Ballads', published in ten parts from 1882 to 1898, contained the texts and variants of 305 extant themes written down between the thirteenth and nineteenth centuries. Unsurpassed in its presentation of texts, this exhaustive collection devoted little attention to the ballad music, a want that was filled by Bertrand Harris Bronson in his four-volume 'Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads'. The present book is an abridged, one-volume edition of that work, setting forth music and text for proven examples of oral tradition, with a new comprehensive introduction. Its convenient format makes readily available to students and scholars the materials for a study of the Child ballads as they have been preserved in the British-American singing tradition. 1st. ed. 4to. 530pp. illust. with examples of musical notation. P/b. The corners of the cover and bottom spine have been reinforced with transparen
t book-binding tape. Ex libris Hamish Henderson bearing his signature on the half title page. A good reading and working copy.
Bookseller Inventory #3914Price: US$ 140.63 (Convert Currency)
Shipping: Rates & SpeedBookseller: Gordon Wright Scottish Books, 25 Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, LTN, United Kingdom, EH9 2NQ

Folks:For those who might be interested at this price.Ed
----------------------------------------------------------        Native American Balladry, A Descriptive Study and a Biographical Syllabus, Volume 1
Laws Jr., G. Malcolm
Price: US$ 80.00 [Convert Currency]
Shipping: [Rates and Speeds]              Book Description: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: American Folklore Society, Kutztown Publishing, 1964. Hard Cover. Very Good/No Jacket. 8vo - over 7¾" - 9¾" tall. xiv - 298 pp. Red cloth with gold lettering on spine. This is the revised edition. Contents are; A Definition of Native American Balladry, American Ballad Types, American Ballads as Dramatic Narrative, The Origin and Distribution of American Ballads, The American Ballad as a Record of Fact, American Ballad Forms and Variants, The Negro's Contribution to American Balladry, The British Ballad Tradition in America, The Spirit of Native American Balladry, Appendices - Native Ballads Current in Oral Tradition (A Syllabus of Ballads Sung in the United States and Canada), Native Ballads of Doubtful Currency in Tradition, Ballad-Like Pieces, Imported Ballads and Folksongs, Bibliography, Index. Extremities show very mild wear. Ffep is clipped (probably to remove a former owner's name). Underlining and highlighting is present i
n first third of book and that is mainly restricted to the first 50 pages. A quite reasonable copy of a hard to find book. Bookseller Inventory #002924Bookseller: Pilgrim Reader - IOBA (Combermere, ON, Canada)

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