I wrote:As I recall, Mike Harding recorded this in the mid-late 60s or so,
but I don't have the LP.John Roberts(My posting, however, generated as a reply to Fred McCormick's
question, was rejected with the following message, so I'm trying
again. Does anyone know if I have Eudora configured wrongly, or how I
can avoid this as it has happened before?)Your posting to  the BALLAD-L list has been rejected  because it contains an
attachment of type 'TEXT/ENRICHED'. The BALLAD-L list has been configured to
reject   such    attachments;   please    contact   the   list    owner   at
[unmask] for more information.

On 6/28/04, John Roberts wrote:>I wrote:
>
>As I recall, Mike Harding recorded this in the mid-late 60s or so,
>but I don't have the LP.
>
>John Roberts
>
>
>
>(My posting, however, generated as a reply to Fred McCormick's
>question, was rejected with the following message, so I'm trying
>again. Does anyone know if I have Eudora configured wrongly, or how I
>can avoid this as it has happened before?)
>
>Your posting to  the BALLAD-L list has been rejected  because it contains an
>attachment of type 'TEXT/ENRICHED'. The BALLAD-L list has been configured to
>reject   such    attachments;   please    contact   the   list    owner   at
>[unmask] for more information.What this means, probably, is that you tried to use styled text --
bold, italic, something. You can, in fact, configure Eudora to
not allow that. The following instructions are based on Version
5.0 for Mac, so your version may be slightly different, but it
works ROUGHLY like this.On the Special menu, go to SETTINGS.... This will bring up a panel
with a bunch of icons. Scroll down to the one called "Styled
Text." There is an area there called "Sending Mail With Styles."
Three choices:
  o Send plain & styled both
  o Send styled mail only
  o Send plain text mail onlyIf you never want to worry about this again, set it to "send plain
text mail only." If you want to have the choice, choose "Send plain
& styled both," then click the box that says "Ask each time" -- but
remember, if asked, to turn it off any time you post to Ballad-L
(or any other mailing list).--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I just got a couple of CDs that have been out for several years, A
Treasury of American Railroad Songs, Ballads and Folklore, Volumes 1
and 2, on Shiloh Records.  I have mixed feelings about the
performances here.  They are all country, many rock-a-billy tinged,
not traditional.  The songs are a mixed bag, too, as usual.  Wayne
Moore massacre's John Prine's very fine song, "Paradise," but he does
pretty well on some of the others.The collections include a number of ballads.  The first band on Vol.
I, which features various performers (Vol. II is all Wayne Moore)
struck me as especially interesting, "'Frisco's Tommy Tucker."
According to the so-brief-they-nearly-don't-exist notes, this was
first published as a poem (by Bill Bain? - I don't have the CD here
with me), then adapted for this recording.  As I recall it tells of
the death of Tucker in a collision between a train and a gasoline
truck (?), perhaps in the 1930s (?).  Whether or not these details
are right, this is another illustration of this mode of genesis of
ballads, that is, poetry is written and published and later set to
music.Many of the songs are new, many are not.  A couple of unfamiliar ones
on Vol. II are credited to "unknown."  There is what seems to me an
especially long and detailed version of "The Hobo's Last Ride."The producers seem to have set out to redress a perceived neglect of
the 'Frisco line in balladry.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Roy Berkeley <[unmask]> wrote:>As to whether "these people" might be equated with broadside ballad
>mongers of earlier times, I would unhesitatingly say "yes".  Even
>moreso in the case of Red River Dave.Roy,What do you see as special about Red River Dave?  I assume that he
was a purveyor of "cowboy," "western," "mountain," and "hillbilly"
song folios (and a recording artist?)  I guess my question is, "How
does he differ, in your view, from others of this type?"Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

There's an old Abbott and Costello routine about
"riding your mother's ass" and similar
double-entendre. Similar in "plot" to the song, if
memory serves-- but memory is probably not very
reliable as i only heard it a couple times.CA

Red River Dave was famous (notorious?) for writing and recording songs based
on the news stories of the day.  A friend of mine used to joke that before
Kathy Fiscus hit the bottom of the well she fell into Red River Dave had a
song about the incident on the air.  I fondly remember his song about James
Dean's death in an automobile collision, ca. 1955.  And didn't he write the
one about Bonnie & Clyde? ("They wandered around unmolested/Thought they had
the whole country bested/In Louisiane/They shot her and her man/And that's
worse than being arrested"..."The moral of Bonnie and Barrow/ Is stick to
the old straight and narrow/When bullets fly thick/They sure kill you
quick/They mess up your bones and your marrow")
Great stuff.
Roy Berkeley
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Prisoner's Song> Roy Berkeley <[unmask]> wrote:
>
> >As to whether "these people" might be equated with broadside ballad
> >mongers of earlier times, I would unhesitatingly say "yes".  Even
> >moreso in the case of Red River Dave.
>
> Roy,
>
> What do you see as special about Red River Dave?  I assume that he
> was a purveyor of "cowboy," "western," "mountain," and "hillbilly"
> song folios (and a recording artist?)  I guess my question is, "How
> does he differ, in your view, from others of this type?"
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Looking for a source (abc, staff notation, whatever)
for a tune called "Crowdy". The usual Google and abc
resources did not turn up anything. Thanks.CA

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>Red River Dave was famous (notorious?) for writing and recording songs based
>on the news stories of the day.So where can I learn more about him and his productions?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Digitrad/Mudcat has the text of the song attributed as "Words & Music
by Frank Higgins, 1969." A note says Sally Rogers (US singer) failed
to locate him when she recorded it; Frankie Armstrong has also
recorded it.The tune may of course be traditional, but it doesn't really sound it
to me. I don't recognize it, for what that's worth, and it has a
distinctive half-way cadence, going up to the high 3rd.The Florence Brunnings index gives it as published in Club Folk
(1970) v.3/3, and Folk Song Today 4, ed. Tony Wales (for EFDSS). I
have a copy of the latter. The note with the song reads:Frank Higgins wrote this song for the CLUB FOLK national song writing
contest in 1969. It won him first prize, and was highly praised by
the judge of the contest Ian Campbell. The words are based on the
testimony of 17 year old Patience Kershaw to the Royal Commission on
Children's Employment, 1842.But I can't help at all with your primary question, I'm afraid.John RobertsThis is a long shot, but I'm hoping somebody on the list may be able to help.I've had an enquiry from Peta Webb, assistant librarian at the
Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, concerning a song called The
Testimony of Patience Kershaw, written by Frank Higgins of Liverpool
about the year 1970.Peta is trying to find out whether Frank is still alive, or whether
he has any descendants who may br entitled to copyright, and what the
copyright position on the song is.I have a feeling that Frank used a traditional air. If so, does
anyone know which one it was.Cheers,Fred McCormick.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Lorna Campbell also recorded Patience Kershaw on The Ian Campbell Folk
Group Wooded Hill Recordings 1972 Copyright  Castle Copyrights original
Pye recordings produced by Malcolm Eade. The notes are terse---
"Although written recently by Frank Higgins this moving song is based
very literally on the actual evidence given by young Patience Kershaw
before the Government Commission of Enquiry into Child Labour in 1842.
As a result that same year an Act of Parliament prohibited the
underground employment in mines of women and boys under ten years old."For me this recording has always been THE version.George Madausn Wednesday, June 30, 2004, at 10:30  AM, John Roberts wrote:> Digitrad/Mudcat has the text of the song attributed as "Words & Music
> by Frank Higgins, 1969." A note says Sally Rogers (US singer) failed
> to locate him when she recorded it; Frankie Armstrong has also
> recorded it.
>
> The tune may of course be traditional, but it doesn't really sound it
> to me. I don't recognize it, for what that's worth, and it has a
> distinctive half-way cadence, going up to the high 3rd.
>
> The Florence Brunnings index gives it as published in Club Folk
> (1970) v.3/3, and Folk Song Today 4, ed. Tony Wales (for EFDSS). I
> have a copy of the latter. The note with the song reads:
>
> Frank Higgins wrote this song for the CLUB FOLK national song writing
> contest in 1969. It won him first prize, and was highly praised by
> the judge of the contest Ian Campbell. The words are based on the
> testimony of 17 year old Patience Kershaw to the Royal Commission on
> Children's Employment, 1842.
>
> But I can't help at all with your primary question, I'm afraid.
>
> John Roberts
>
>
>
>
> This is a long shot, but I'm hoping somebody on the list may be able
> to help.
>
> I've had an enquiry from Peta Webb, assistant librarian at the
> Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, concerning a song called The
> Testimony of Patience Kershaw, written by Frank Higgins of Liverpool
> about the year 1970.
>
> Peta is trying to find out whether Frank is still alive, or whether
> he has any descendants who may br entitled to copyright, and what the
> copyright position on the song is.
>
> I have a feeling that Frank used a traditional air. If so, does
> anyone know which one it was.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick.
>

Those who are interesting in the present meaning of "folk song"
should visit Folk Alley.http://www.folkalley.com/As I write, this site features Tracy Chapman, Rugus Wainwright, Leo
Kottke, Bob Dylan, Hot Club of Cowtown, and Willie Nelson."All Folk.  All the Time." From Kent State University.--
john garst    [unmask]

On 6/30/04, John Garst wrote:>Those who are interesting in the present meaning of "folk song"
>should visit Folk Alley.
>
>http://www.folkalley.com/
>
>As I write, this site features Tracy Chapman, Rugus Wainwright, Leo
>Kottke, Bob Dylan, Hot Club of Cowtown, and Willie Nelson.
>
>"All Folk.  All the Time."I don't need to visit such a site. I *know* the present
meaning of "folk song." It is "whatever the speaker wants
it to mean, as long as it doesn't mean an actual folk
song."Sigh.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Heather,No abc, but i think i can track in down from the
resources cited. And what a great site. Bookmarked,
you bet.CADate:    Wed, 30 Jun 2004 05:09:54 -0700
From:    Cliff Abrams <[unmask]>
Subject: Tune SearchLooking for a source (abc, staff notation, whatever)
for a tune called "Crowdy". The usual Google and abc
resources did not turn up anything. Thanks.CA------------------------------Date:    Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:17:23 EDT
From:    Heather Wood <[unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tune Search-------------------------------1088597843
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitMaybe "Crowdie"?  see
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/CROO_CRY.htm#CROWDIEHeather Wood

Hi!        To everyone in the US, Happy July 4th! Apparently, a number of
sellers are celebrating on Ebay. There are an amazing number of auctions
closing that day. Usually, there are fewer auctions on a holiday.        SONGSTERS        3733001017 - Tippecanoe Club Songster, 1841, $785 (ends Jul-04-04
09:00:00 PDT)        3733123868 - GORTON'S FAMOUS MINSTREL MUSICAL ALBUM, 1904, $5
(ends Jul-04-04 09:01:40 PDT)        2254269055 - Owens' Uncle Tom's Cabin Songster, 1914?, $4.95
(ends Jul-05-04 13:15:14 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3918758639 - Irish Street Ballads by Lochlainn, 1967 printing, $16
(ends Jul-03-04 12:33:02 PDT)        6909053364 - Songs of the Sea by Hugill, 1977, $5.99 (ends
Jul-03-04 19:49:12 PDT)        6909105940 - TALES & SONGS OF SOUTHERN ILLINOIS by Neely, 1998
edition, $12.50 (ends Jul-04-04 07:02:22 PDT)        6908616925 - English and Scottish Ballads by Child, volume 4,
1860, $19.99 (ends Jul-04-04 11:39:01 PDT)        6909194531 - Singing Family of the Cumberlands by Ritchie, 1988
edition, $6 (ends Jul-04-04 11:50:19 PDT)        6908666834 - Ballads of the Kentucky Highlands by Fuson, 1931,
$24.50 (ends Jul-04-04 16:29:38 PDT)        6909261403 - Southern Folk Ballads by McNeill, 1988, $2 (ends
Jul-04-04 16:52:21 PDT)        6909264299 - Songs and Ballads from Nova Scotia by Creighton,
1966, $9.99 (ends Jul-04-04 17:09:47 PDT)        3733256170 -  Ancient Songs and Ballads from the Reign of King Henry
the Second to the Revolution by Ritson, 1877, $18 (ends Jul-04-04
19:06:07 PDT)        3733392627 - Marrowbones...English Folk Songs by Purslow, 3.31
GBP (ends Jul-05-04 13:38:02 PDT)        3919051225 - 2 pamphlets (Jubilee Songs & Folk Songs of the
American Negro) 1872 & 1907, $9.95 (ends Jul-05-04 19:00:00 PDT)        3919087808 - Negro Folk Music by Courlander, 1963, $4.95 (ends
Jul-05-04 20:19:51 PDT)        3733519653 - Folk Songs of Old Hampshire by Browne, 2.20 GBP
(ends Jul-06-04 07:23:04 PDT)        6909638011 - Intermountain Folk Songs of Their Days and Ways by
Shipp, 1922, $9.99 (ends Jul-06-04 15:02:13 PDT)        6105678711 - FOLKSONG & MUSIC HALL by Lee, 1982, 4.64 GBP (ends
Jul-06-04 16:36:28 PDT)        6909133442 - THE ULSTER RECITER, 1985, 0.99 GBP (ends Jul-07-04
09:00:32 PDT)        6907064311 - Folksongs of Southeast Alaska and the Yukon Panhandler
Songbook, volume 1, 1979, $5.25 (ends Jul-08-04 13:45:00 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        4021579975 - The Travelling People of Ireland, LP, 4.99 GBP (ends
Jul-04-04 13:28:24 PDT)        6305326352 - The Films of Bess Lomax Hawes, DVD, $24.95 (ends
Jul-07-04 13:42:16 PDT)        3733693829 - New Edinburgh Review. Folk Song and the Tradition,
1973, 2 GBP (ends Jul-07-04 05:51:06 PDT)        3733693060 - 4 issues of Traditional Topics, 1968, 4 GBP (ends
Jul-07-04 05:42:27 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

>"The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" is included as a "railroad
>song" on one of the Shiloh "Treasury" CDs.  Of course, I've heard it
>a lot since 1970, but I'm dense - I've never understood just what it
>is about.
>...
>What is the chorus about?  It seems happy, and it is certainly sung
>in a happy vein, yet it occurs the first time on the heels of a line
>telling of the fall of the Confederacy (and the singer is a Rebel!).
>
>Is "The night they drove 'Old Dixie' down"  to be interpreted as
>"the night the Yankees won the Civil War"?  If so, who were all
>these people in Richmond who were ringing bells and singing?  Were
>they happy that it was over, even if they were defeated?
>
>Or is "Old Dixie" something else?  It's not a train, is it?
>
>Verse 2: What is referred to in the line "But they should never have
>taken the very best"?
>
>Verse 3: What does "You can't raise a Caine back up when he's in
>defeat" mean?  It sounds like the reverse of bragging - I don't
>think people are prone to talk like that.Wading through a jungle of WWW sites that give the lyrics or
perfunctory discussions finally led me tohttp://theband.hiof.no/articles/dixie_viney.htmlwhere all of my questions are answered (or, at least, stabbed at).I think this song could be an interesting case history for ballad
scholars.  It was written by a Canadian who, on being thrust into the
South, fell in love with it.  The lyrics, however, seem to be a bit
of a collaborative effort, with other members of The Band,
particularly the singer Levon Helm, an Arkansas boy.The WWW site above gives facinating insights into the origin of the
song, the history behind it, and (to me) the workings of balladry in
a particular, contemporary case.  I recommend it highly.--
john garst    [unmask]

As my previous post noted, I see Robbie Robertson's "The Night They
Drove 'Old Dixie' Down" as a worthy subject for scholarly attention.
Earlier, I had expressed a similar opinion about Richard Thompson's
"'52 Vincent Black Lightning."I think it would be a shame if ballad scholars (I'm really not one)
left the study of songs such as these to popular-culture critics.  I
suspect that you guys and gals have matrices of knowledge that could
give real insights that pop-cult critics would never see.  I also
think that such study could be a legitimate part of ballad
scholarship.--
john garst    [unmask]

Thanks for the site reference, John Garst.  I read every word and I'm no
wiser.  I didn't see that ANY of your questions were answered.  I found many
of the topics discussed (and minor ones, such as "blood/mud") were
overdetermined.  I want to know what the song's about. It's voiced by a
Southerner who fought for the Confederacy, yes.  But what does it say?  That
he'd fight again? That the fight was justified?  That it was senseless? Who
were ringing the bells?  Why did they go "na, na, na..."? Who took the very
best, and why shouldn't they have done so?   My own thinking is that it's a
pop song, and sometimes a pop song is just a pop song.Jon Bartlett----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Driving 'Old Dixie' Down> >"The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" is included as a "railroad
> >song" on one of the Shiloh "Treasury" CDs.  Of course, I've heard it
> >a lot since 1970, but I'm dense - I've never understood just what it
> >is about.
> >...
> >What is the chorus about?  It seems happy, and it is certainly sung
> >in a happy vein, yet it occurs the first time on the heels of a line
> >telling of the fall of the Confederacy (and the singer is a Rebel!).
> >
> >Is "The night they drove 'Old Dixie' down"  to be interpreted as
> >"the night the Yankees won the Civil War"?  If so, who were all
> >these people in Richmond who were ringing bells and singing?  Were
> >they happy that it was over, even if they were defeated?
> >
> >Or is "Old Dixie" something else?  It's not a train, is it?
> >
> >Verse 2: What is referred to in the line "But they should never have
> >taken the very best"?
> >
> >Verse 3: What does "You can't raise a Caine back up when he's in
> >defeat" mean?  It sounds like the reverse of bragging - I don't
> >think people are prone to talk like that.
>
> Wading through a jungle of WWW sites that give the lyrics or
> perfunctory discussions finally led me to
>
> http://theband.hiof.no/articles/dixie_viney.html
>
> where all of my questions are answered (or, at least, stabbed at).
>
> I think this song could be an interesting case history for ballad
> scholars.  It was written by a Canadian who, on being thrust into the
> South, fell in love with it.  The lyrics, however, seem to be a bit
> of a collaborative effort, with other members of The Band,
> particularly the singer Levon Helm, an Arkansas boy.
>
> The WWW site above gives facinating insights into the origin of the
> song, the history behind it, and (to me) the workings of balladry in
> a particular, contemporary case.  I recommend it highly.
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

I agree with the theory, but as someone once said, "The unlived life is not
worth examining."  Both the songs you mention seem to me to lack any
substance worth examining (and I'm someone interested in theory,
particularly in regard to modern themes of nostalgia and sentimentality).Jon Bartlett----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, July 03, 2004 11:05 AM
Subject: Opinion and Challenge> As my previous post noted, I see Robbie Robertson's "The Night They
> Drove 'Old Dixie' Down" as a worthy subject for scholarly attention.
> Earlier, I had expressed a similar opinion about Richard Thompson's
> "'52 Vincent Black Lightning."
>
> I think it would be a shame if ballad scholars (I'm really not one)
> left the study of songs such as these to popular-culture critics.  I
> suspect that you guys and gals have matrices of knowledge that could
> give real insights that pop-cult critics would never see.  I also
> think that such study could be a legitimate part of ballad
> scholarship.
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

It's a song about the last days of the Civil War, about the loss of life,
about the end of a fight, the end of an era. There's no indication the narrator
was in the fight at all (he worked on the train) or supported it but rather is
someone who lost a brother. The song simply portrays the multi-layered loss
without either glorifying the cause or the fight. It's a eulogy.Mike Luster
KEDM FM
1800 Riverside Drive
Monroe, LA  71201Creole Statement/AmericanaRama
airs Saturdays 7-11PM CST
archived programs available at:
http://kedm.org/creolestatement/real.htm
http://kedm.org/americanarama/real.htm
KEDM.org
[unmask]
318-342-5565 studio line
318-324-1665 voice or fax
318-503-1618 cell"The music choices and opinions on these programs are my own and not those of
KEDM, its management, or the University of Louisiana at Monroe."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Bob's a little too pessimistic; he underestimates the determination of the
discographers' fraternity. Bob Olson has compiled a compled VD discog. and
Jack Palmer has written a lengthy Dalhart biography that includes a complete
(probably) list of pseudonym he used.  Palmer's book ms is under
consideration for publication as I write (so to speak); the question whether
to include Olson's discography with it is still being considered.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: Prisoner's Song> On 6/25/04, John Garst wrote:
>
> >At 1:00 PM -0700 6/24/04, edward cray wrote:
> >
> >>Meade, Spottsworth and Meade, _Country Music Sources_ (Chapel Hill,
> >>2002), p. 89, list the first recording of the ballad by Fiddling
> >>John Carson on April 15, 1925.  Vernon Dahlhart seems subsequently
> >>to have recorded it no less than 14 times!  (One cut appeared on no
> >>less than 15 labels, which may be a world's record.)
> >
> >http://www.garlic.com/~tgracyk/dalhart.htm
> >****
> >Dalhart was so popular that over 100 of his songs appeared on 10 or
> >more labels. Among the most popular were Robison's "My Blue Ridge
> >Mountain Home" (on 46 different labels), Gussie L. Davis' "In The
> >Baggage Coach Ahead" (on 42 labels), "Golden Slippers" (on 38 labels)
> >and Hattie Nevada's "The Letter Edged In Black" (on 35 labels).
> >****
> >
> >Must be a collector's nightmare, or maybe a pleasant challenge.
>
> Nightmare. Purely. No one even has a full list of the names he
> recorded under, and given the lack of records from the recording
> companies of the time, it is probably not possible to fully
> reconstruct his discography.
>
> And a lot of the 78s aren't known to exist in even a single copy,
> so they are awfully hard to check....
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

Thanks for the ino, John-- I didn't know about these.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 6:47 AM
Subject: FYI: Railroad Songs> I just got a couple of CDs that have been out for several years, A
> Treasury of American Railroad Songs, Ballads and Folklore, Volumes 1
> and 2, on Shiloh Records.  I have mixed feelings about the
> performances here.  They are all country, many rock-a-billy tinged,
> not traditional.  The songs are a mixed bag, too, as usual.  Wayne
> Moore massacre's John Prine's very fine song, "Paradise," but he does
> pretty well on some of the others.
>
> The collections include a number of ballads.  The first band on Vol.
> I, which features various performers (Vol. II is all Wayne Moore)
> struck me as especially interesting, "'Frisco's Tommy Tucker."
> According to the so-brief-they-nearly-don't-exist notes, this was
> first published as a poem (by Bill Bain? - I don't have the CD here
> with me), then adapted for this recording.  As I recall it tells of
> the death of Tucker in a collision between a train and a gasoline
> truck (?), perhaps in the 1930s (?).  Whether or not these details
> are right, this is another illustration of this mode of genesis of
> ballads, that is, poetry is written and published and later set to
> music.
>
> Many of the songs are new, many are not.  A couple of unfamiliar ones
> on Vol. II are credited to "unknown."  There is what seems to me an
> especially long and detailed version of "The Hobo's Last Ride."
>
> The producers seem to have set out to redress a perceived neglect of
> the 'Frisco line in balladry.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

> As my previous post noted, I see Robbie Robertson's "The Night They
> Drove 'Old Dixie' Down" as a worthy subject for scholarly attention.
> Earlier, I had expressed a similar opinion about Richard Thompson's
> "'52 Vincent Black Lightning."
>
> I think it would be a shame if ballad scholars (I'm really not one)
> left the study of songs such as these to popular-culture critics.
> I suspect that you guys and gals have matrices of knowledge that
> could give real insights that pop-cult critics would never see.
> I also think that such study could be a legitimate part of ballad
> scholarship.I don't know the first, but Thompson's piece is simply pastiche,
a late 20th century equivalent to Scott's "Last Minstrel".  No
doubt somebody with a good knowledge of ballads could work out
easily enough where Thompson got his ideas from without taking
the trouble to ask him, but what would be the point?(That's just for the text - the extraordinarily boring tune has
no traditional antecedent I recognize).Urban folklore is surely a more interesting field to apply ballad
scholarship to.  And the examination of mass-culture products that
don't have such obvious, conscious links to folk tradition.  I'd
bet that "John Henry" has been recycled in the epic diction of
generations of sports commentators.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

>Urban folklore is surely a more interesting field to apply ballad
>scholarship to.  And the examination of mass-culture products that
>don't have such obvious, conscious links to folk tradition.  I'd
>bet that "John Henry" has been recycled in the epic diction of
>generations of sports commentators.In the early 1990s, John Henry Irons, better known as "Steel,"
appeared in the Superman series of comics.  Irons is a black engineer
who invents a suit of armor that not only protects him but also
allows him to fly around with his hammer in his hand, righting
wrongs, of course.  Shaquille O'Neal played Steel in a movie.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>I agree with the theory, but as someone once said, "The unlived life is not
>worth examining."  Both the songs you mention seem to me to lack any
>substance worth examining (and I'm someone interested in theory,
>particularly in regard to modern themes of nostalgia and sentimentality).
>
>Jon BartlettI suspect that there are contemporary examples that you *would* find
substantive.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>Thanks for the site reference, John Garst.  I read every word and I'm no
>wiser.  I didn't see that ANY of your questions were answered.  I found many
>of the topics discussed (and minor ones, such as "blood/mud") were
>overdetermined.  I want to know what the song's about. It's voiced by a
>Southerner who fought for the Confederacy, yes.  But what does it say?  That
>he'd fight again? That the fight was justified?  That it was senseless? Who
>were ringing the bells?  Why did they go "na, na, na..."? Who took the very
>best, and why shouldn't they have done so?   My own thinking is that it's a
>pop song, and sometimes a pop song is just a pop song.
>
>Jon BartlettA good deal of effort seems to have gone into its writing.  Weren't
the Child ballads once "just" pop songs?--
john garst    [unmask]

That seems an odd set of standards, to on the one hand to accuse Thompson of
pastiche and then on the other complain that the tune might be without
"traditional antecedent." Whatever similarities you may find to Scott (is it simply
that he wrote within traditional forms?) it seems to me the crucial difference
is that while Scott "antiqued" Thompson's innovation was that he took a
traditional form and a gave it a contemporary content, the Vincent Black Lightning
itself. As for Thompson sitting down and writing a piece of "mass culture,"
that seems wrong on many counts. I think he simply wrote a song as many before
him have done--some known, some obscure. True it was published, recorded and
distributed and has found its way into the bluegrass repertoire. That does not
damage it in my eyes. I find it a wonderful, dynamic new traditional song (time
will tell) as I do, in a similar vein, Robert Earl Keen's "The Road Goes on
Forever (and the Party Never Ends).In a message dated 7/5/04 7:47:45 AM, [unmask] writes:>I don't know the first, but Thompson's piece is simply pastiche,
>a late 20th century equivalent to Scott's "Last Minstrel".  No
>doubt somebody with a good knowledge of ballads could work out
>easily enough where Thompson got his ideas from without taking
>the trouble to ask him, but what would be the point?
>
>(That's just for the text - the extraordinarily boring tune has
>no traditional antecedent I recognize).Mike Luster
College of Urban and Public Affairs
University of New Orleans
New Orleans, LA 70116[unmask]
318-324-1665 v/f
318-503-1618 c

>Thanks to the people who sent info on this song. I have now passed
>it onto Peta Webb at VWML.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Fred McCormickSeehttp://www.victorianweb.org/history/ashley.html
(or Google's cache of it, which is what I saw - the site itself was
loading excruciatingly slowly - I'm not sure it would have finished,
ever.)for the original testimony of Patience Kershaw and several of her
contemporaries.There is an added observation:"This girl is an ignorant, filthy, ragged, and deplorable-looking
object, and such an one as the uncivilized natives of the prairies
would be shocked to look upon."--
john garst    [unmask]

Obscurantism only became commonplace in "folk" music during the Great Revival of the 60s and 70s. It shoulda stayed home.dick greenhaus
>
> From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> Date: 2004/07/05 Mon AM 09:31:31 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Driving 'Old Dixie' Down
>
> >Thanks for the site reference, John Garst.  I read every word and I'm no
> >wiser.  I didn't see that ANY of your questions were answered.  I found many
> >of the topics discussed (and minor ones, such as "blood/mud") were
> >overdetermined.  I want to know what the song's about. It's voiced by a
> >Southerner who fought for the Confederacy, yes.  But what does it say?  That
> >he'd fight again? That the fight was justified?  That it was senseless? Who
> >were ringing the bells?  Why did they go "na, na, na..."? Who took the very
> >best, and why shouldn't they have done so?   My own thinking is that it's a
> >pop song, and sometimes a pop song is just a pop song.
> >
> >Jon Bartlett
>
>
> A good deal of effort seems to have gone into its writing.  Weren't
> the Child ballads once "just" pop songs?
>
>
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

test

>Obscurantism only became commonplace in "folk" music during the
>Great Revival of the 60s and 70s. It shoulda stayed home.What are some other examples of "obscurantism"?How does "obscurantism" differ from elliptical story telling, as in
"blues (nodal) ballads"?Thanks.>dick greenhaus>  > >Thanks for the site reference, John Garst.  I read every word and I'm no
>  > >wiser.  I didn't see that ANY of your questions were answered....As I said, "stabbed at," at least.>  > >
>  > >Jon Bartlett
--
john garst    [unmask]

Hi,Could you clarify the use of the word "nodal" in describing blues ballads?
I'm not familiar with it in that sense.Thanks,
Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

On 7/5/04, Paul Garon wrote:>Hi,
>
>Could you clarify the use of the word "nodal" in describing blues ballads?
>I'm not familiar with it in that sense.Are you sure that isn't an error for "modal"?
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

WEll, how about all those songs where listeners say "what does that mean?' The complete workd of Leonard Cohen come to mind. And the oomphalaskeptic outpourings of innumerable singer songwriters.
   Obscure lyrics that appear in most traditional music, I believe, comes from mis-hearing, "folk-processing" and time constraints in early recording. I don't really think that the folk went in for intentional hard-to-comprehend imagery.>
> From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> Date: 2004/07/05 Mon PM 02:14:20 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Driving 'Old Dixie' Down
>
> >Obscurantism only became commonplace in "folk" music during the
> >Great Revival of the 60s and 70s. It shoulda stayed home.
>
> What are some other examples of "obscurantism"?
>
> How does "obscurantism" differ from elliptical story telling, as in
> "blues (nodal) ballads"?
>
> Thanks.
>
> >dick greenhaus
>
>
>
> >  > >Thanks for the site reference, John Garst.  I read every word and I'm no
> >  > >wiser.  I didn't see that ANY of your questions were answered....
>
> As I said, "stabbed at," at least.
>
> >  > >
> >  > >Jon Bartlett
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

"Weren't the Child ballads once "just" pop songs?"Definitely. In a time (for thousands of years, in
fact) when the only entertainment was what you made
for yourself, what better way to pass the time than
with songs about the usual fun stuff: murder, incest,
debauchery, the supernatural, and the folly of your
leaders.CA

>WEll, how about all those songs where listeners say "what does that
>mean?' The complete workd of Leonard Cohen come to mind. And the
>oomphalaskeptic outpourings of innumerable singer songwriters.A trend the authors picked up from literary poets, perhaps?
--
john garst    [unmask]

>Hi,
>
>Could you clarify the use of the word "nodal" in describing blues ballads?
>I'm not familiar with it in that sense.
>
>Thanks,
>Paul GaronIt is Paul Oliver's suggestion to replace "blues" ballad.  The idea
is that "blues ballad" suggests a ballad in canonical blues form,
aab, etc.  What Wilgus meant, however, is a ballad that shares
another aspect with blues, that the story may be incompletely told,
perhaps with verses in any order.  It is commonly said that blues
ballads make perfect sense to listeners who already know the story,
while a listener who doesn't know the story would never be able to
figure it out completely from the song.  Blues ballads concentrate on
pivotal moments or ideas.  I think these are the "nodes" that Oliver
had in mind when he suggested that "nodal ballads" would be a more
apt term.
--
john garst    [unmask]

I installed my copy of maidment. I can look at the text.
i get a message that can't find c:\HM\JMEBTEXT.pdx
if I click in explorer on jmebtext.pdf it says search could not load index
may need to rebuild index
If i should rebuild or download or copy separately please direct me.
Nice to see you at old songs. I had requested the right to sell but never
got a response from Andy.
Planning to see you at eisteddfod.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Kleiman" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:32 AM
Subject: James Maidment (digital edition) and other Ballad Books> Well folks,
>
> Sorry if this is too commercial but, since several people have asked about
> our upcoming plans (now that the English and Scottish Popular Ballads
> (digital edition) is out and shipping), and in answer to Steve Gardham's
> specific query about Maidment, here is an anticipated list of publications
> in preparation at Heritage Muse, Inc......
>
> Feb 2004 - "The Early Ballad Collections (1821-1838 / reprinted 1891) of
> James Maidment".  Child was familiar with these privately printed
pamphlets.
> In fact he draws several ballads (sole source) from them. However, he left
> the other Maidment versions behind because he felt that they were too
> bawdy/ribald in these incarnations.  140+ pages of the complete text of
both
> works, with lyrics hyperlinked to the ESPB (digital edition) and links to
> the Bronson currently in production.  No tunes. - PC Windows and
> institutional single-seat license versions are available last week of Feb.
> 2004 $15 (pre-publication) or $20 (after March 1st) plus shipping and
> handling.
>
> Mar 2004 - "The Northern Garlands (circa 1840 / reprinted 1891) collected
by
> Joseph Ritson".  Ritson was a very significant collector and a major
> influence on Child's thinking.  He is one of the first to say that
collected
> materials should be published without editing and in their original form.
> The editor's notes shed light on tune and lyric analysis.  Again, this is
an
> original source for Child. 300+ pages with lyric texts hyperlinked to the
> ESPB and Bronson (digital editions). No tunes.
>
> May/June 2004 - "The Ballad Book by William Allingham (1879)".  Where
Ritson
> was founding the new school/science of folklore studies, Allingham was
> collecting and publishing the Ballads from a poet's viewpoint.  He had no
> problem editing the material. In fact, he says every singer does it each
> time they sing a ballad. But unlike other, earlier collectors, Allingham
> bases his work on source material and tells you when he has changed it.
390+
> pages hyperlinked to the ESPB and Bronson (digital editions).  No tunes.
>
> July/August 2004 - "Ancient Ballads and Songs of the of North Scotland" by
> Peter Buchan (1828/reprinted 1875).  Because he "reassembled" ballads from
> multiple versions, Buchan was viewed with considerable scepticism by Child
> and others.  However, this two volume set contains several source ballads
> for Child and much that never made it into the Child opus. There are also
> some interesting notes in about the lyrics. 650 + pages hyperlinked to the
> ESPB and Bronson (digital editions).  No tunes.
>
>
> Dec. 2004 / Jan 2005 - "Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads" by Bertram
> H. Bronson. Working 70 years after Child, Prof. Bronson (UC Berkley) was
an
> English teacher, folklorist, and fiddler. This is his four volume work
2200
> + pages with over 1,200 tunes to the Child Ballads published between 1958
> and 1972.  This package is intimately connected with and is treated
> similarly to the ESPB (digital edition).  Midi files for all the tunes,
> expanded Place Names Index, new ballad maps, and essays on Bronson's early
> efforts at digitizing tune analysis.  Audio CD of complete ballad
> performances (similar to the one included with ESPB).
>
>
> There is some discussion of doing: "Minstrelsy Ancient and Modern" by
> William Motherwell (1827).  Two volume work with 40+ tunes and
Motherwell's
> own publication notes.
>
> Since most of the lyrics appear in ESPB and the tunes appear in Bronson is
> there any interest out there in our doing a similar digital treatment for
> the Motherwell?  Please let me know.
>
> Answers to two other questions that seem to be coming up....
>
> 1. Yes, the English and Scottish Popular Ballads (digital edition) is now
> available world-wide.  We currently ship from NYC but we're working
rapidly
> on setting up the fulfillment house in the UK to cut local shipping costs.
>
> 2. No, the Macintosh version is not yet available anywhere.  The issues
are
> technical and have to do with the Macintosh operating systems (both 9 and
> X). We are working to resolve this daily and will notify everyone who has
> expressed interest when the Mac edition is available.
>
> David M. Kleiman
> President & CEO
> Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.
> 165 West End Ave - Suite 12D
> New York, NY 10023
> 212-721-9382
> www.heritagemuse.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Steve Gardham
> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 1:39 PM
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Ebay List - 02/12/04
>
> It's good enough for me, Bob, and thanks for putting it on line.
> Is Maidment online anywhere yet?
> SteveG

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

No, Dave,
There are still plenty of us who prefer to turn round and pull a book off
a shelf. In fact just this week I picked up the EP copy of 'Choice Old
Scottish Ballads' ( Includes 2 of Maidment's, Kinloch, and Sharpe's Ballad
Book ) for £8 at Spellman's in York. I didn't even know this reprint
existed, which brings me to another point. Is there a list anywhere of
reprinted ballad books by the likes of Dover, EP and Llanerch that we can
check out?
SteveG

----- Original Message -----
From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]><<Obscurantism only became commonplace in "folk" music during the Great
Revival of the 60s and 70s. It shoulda stayed home.>>Does that mean that songs like "Nottamun Town" are cohesive, transparent
narratives?Peace,
Paul (or did you mean the 1560s and 70s?)

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 06 July 2004 19:27
Subject: Re: James Maidment... There are still plenty of us who prefer to turn round and pull a book off
a shelf. In fact just this week I picked up the EP copy of 'Choice Old
Scottish Ballads' ( Includes 2 of Maidment's, Kinloch, and Sharpe's Ballad
Book ) for £8 at Spellman's in York. I didn't even know this reprint
existed, which brings me to another point. Is there a list anywhere of
reprinted ballad books by the likes of Dover, EP and Llanerch that we can
check out?--------------------Not physical re-prints, but I've been compiling a listing of books and journals relating to folk
song which are available online in some form or another. There's quite a bit as it turns out
(formatted in varying degrees of usability) and more turns up all the time. There's more that I
haven't had time to add yet, and doubtless also a good deal that I don't know about. Some of the
facsimiles are good enough to get a fair print from. The listings are athttp://www.folk-network.com/directory/links.htmlThey are accompanied by what I hope are helpful comments, though they are subjective and may in some
cases be unfair. If anyone cares to look at it, do please let me know about errors or omissions.I vastly prefer real, physical books, but a properly prepared electronic text can be a very useful
adjunct to them. And, of course, some are very hard to find, or to afford. I've photocopied three
volumes of Bronson so far, for example, and will do the fourth as soon as I'm able; I'll also be
after the cd version when it appears, income permitting; but I'll be using it mainly as an index to
the hard copy.Malcolm Douglas

Dear Malcolm Douglas,You need to fix your Merry Muses of Caledonia links to my website.
I changed my directory structure.   My online OCRed books are listed
here:
http://www.immortalia.com/html/books-OCRed/index.htmSincerely,John Mehlberg
~
You can listen to my online field recordings here:
http://www.immortalia.com/html/field-recordings/index.htmThe Merry Muses of Caledonia
"A Collection of Favourite Scots Songs, Ancient and Modern; Selected
for use of the Crochallan Fencibles".The infamous collection of bawdy and scatological songs put together
by Robert Burns and originally privately issued. Some are from
tradition, while others are adaptations or parodies. Because of the
nature and history of the material, published editions have tended to
differ quite considerably. This site has three editions, rendered into
html via OCR:Link: The Merry Muses of Caledonia
  Edition of 1800: "from the 1965 facsimile reissue".
  Edition of c.1910
  1911 Kilmarnock edition: edited by Duncan McNaught: "from an
American pirated reprint, Philadelphia, c. 1930".
Bawdy Songbooks: http://www.immortalia.com/html/books_OCRed/----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Douglas" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: James Maidment----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 06 July 2004 19:27
Subject: Re: James Maidment... There are still plenty of us who prefer to turn round and pull a
book off
a shelf. In fact just this week I picked up the EP copy of 'Choice Old
Scottish Ballads' ( Includes 2 of Maidment's, Kinloch, and Sharpe's
Ballad
Book ) for £8 at Spellman's in York. I didn't even know this reprint
existed, which brings me to another point. Is there a list anywhere of
reprinted ballad books by the likes of Dover, EP and Llanerch that we
can
check out?--------------------Not physical re-prints, but I've been compiling a listing of books and
journals relating to folk
song which are available online in some form or another. There's quite
a bit as it turns out
(formatted in varying degrees of usability) and more turns up all the
time. There's more that I
haven't had time to add yet, and doubtless also a good deal that I
don't know about. Some of the
facsimiles are good enough to get a fair print from. The listings are
athttp://www.folk-network.com/directory/links.htmlThey are accompanied by what I hope are helpful comments, though they
are subjective and may in some
cases be unfair. If anyone cares to look at it, do please let me know
about errors or omissions.I vastly prefer real, physical books, but a properly prepared
electronic text can be a very useful
adjunct to them. And, of course, some are very hard to find, or to
afford. I've photocopied three
volumes of Bronson so far, for example, and will do the fourth as soon
as I'm able; I'll also be
after the cd version when it appears, income permitting; but I'll be
using it mainly as an index to
the hard copy.Malcolm Douglas

Malcolm, Steve:There are literally hundreds of reprints of older (read: scarce) ballad and song collections, notably by Ken Goldstein as Folklore Press/Folklore Associates, and later Norwood Editions.Others include EP Publishing, AMS Press, Llanerch, John Donald, Chiollagh Books, Singing Tree, Scottish Text Society, Frederick Blom, Dover and more.Further, this doesn't take into account the many reprints of folktales, particularly from the British Isles.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Douglas <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, July 6, 2004 2:16 pm
Subject: Re: James Maidment> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: 06 July 2004 19:27
> Subject: Re: James Maidment
> 
> 
> ... There are still plenty of us who prefer to turn round and pull a book off
> a shelf. In fact just this week I picked up the EP copy of 'Choice Old
> Scottish Ballads' ( Includes 2 of Maidment's, Kinloch, and Sharpe's Ballad
> Book ) for £8 at Spellman's in York. I didn't even know this reprint
> existed, which brings me to another point. Is there a list anywhere of
> reprinted ballad books by the likes of Dover, EP and Llanerch that we can
> check out?
> 
> --------------------
> 
> Not physical re-prints, but I've been compiling a listing of books and 
> journals relating to folk
> song which are available online in some form or another. There's quite a 
> bit as it turns out
> (formatted in varying degrees of usability) and more turns up all the 
> time. There's more that I
> haven't had time to add yet, and doubtless also a good deal that I don't 
> know about. Some of the
> facsimiles are good enough to get a fair print from. The listings are at
> 
> http://www.folk-network.com/directory/links.html
> 
> They are accompanied by what I hope are helpful comments, though they are 
> subjective and may in some
> cases be unfair. If anyone cares to look at it, do please let me know 
> about errors or omissions.
> 
> I vastly prefer real, physical books, but a properly prepared electronic 
> text can be a very useful
> adjunct to them. And, of course, some are very hard to find, or to afford. 
> I've photocopied three
> volumes of Bronson so far, for example, and will do the fourth as soon as 
> I'm able; I'll also be
> after the cd version when it appears, income permitting; but I'll be using 
> it mainly as an index to
> the hard copy.
> 
> Malcolm Douglas
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mehlberg" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 06 July 2004 22:20
Subject: Re: James Maidment> Dear Malcolm Douglas,
>
> You need to fix your Merry Muses of Caledonia links to my website.
> I changed my directory structure.   My online OCRed books are listed
> here:
> http://www.immortalia.com/html/books-OCRed/index.htm
>
> Sincerely,
>
> John MehlbergAh, the site re-structure. A perennial nightmare for directory compilers! Thanks for letting me
know; I've made the appropriate changes.Malcolm

On Tuesday, July 6, 2004, at 05:20  PM, John Mehlberg wrote:> Dear Malcolm Douglas,
>
> You need to fix your Merry Muses of Caledonia links to my website.
> I changed my directory structure.   My online OCRed books are listed
> here:
> http://www.immortalia.com/html/books-OCRed/index.htm
>
> Sincerely,
>
> John Mehlberg
> ~
> You can listen to my online field recordings here:
> http://www.immortalia.com/html/field-recordings/index.htm
>
>
>
>
> The Merry Muses of Caledonia
> "A Collection of Favourite Scots Songs, Ancient and Modern; Selected
> for use of the Crochallan Fencibles".
>
> The infamous collection of bawdy and scatological songs put together
> by Robert Burns and originally privately issued. Some are from
> tradition, while others are adaptations or parodies. Because of the
> nature and history of the material, published editions have tended to
> differ quite considerably. This site has three editions, rendered into
> html via OCR:
>
> Link: The Merry Muses of Caledonia
>   Edition of 1800: "from the 1965 facsimile reissue".
>   Edition of c.1910
>   1911 Kilmarnock edition: edited by Duncan McNaught: "from an
> American pirated reprint, Philadelphia, c. 1930".
> Bawdy Songbooks: http://www.immortalia.com/html/books_OCRed/
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Malcolm Douglas" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 4:16 PM
> Subject: Re: James Maidment
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: 06 July 2004 19:27
> Subject: Re: James Maidment
>
>
> ... There are still plenty of us who prefer to turn round and pull a
> book off
> a shelf. In fact just this week I picked up the EP copy of 'Choice Old
> Scottish Ballads' ( Includes 2 of Maidment's, Kinloch, and Sharpe's
> Ballad
> Book ) for £8 at Spellman's in York. I didn't even know this reprint
> existed, which brings me to another point. Is there a list anywhere of
> reprinted ballad books by the likes of Dover, EP and Llanerch that we
> can
> check out?
>
> --------------------
>
> Not physical re-prints, but I've been compiling a listing of books and
> journals relating to folk
> song which are available online in some form or another. There's quite
> a bit as it turns out
> (formatted in varying degrees of usability) and more turns up all the
> time. There's more that I
> haven't had time to add yet, and doubtless also a good deal that I
> don't know about. Some of the
> facsimiles are good enough to get a fair print from. The listings are
> at
>
> http://www.folk-network.com/directory/links.html
>
> They are accompanied by what I hope are helpful comments, though they
> are subjective and may in some
> cases be unfair. If anyone cares to look at it, do please let me know
> about errors or omissions.
>
> I vastly prefer real, physical books, but a properly prepared
> electronic text can be a very useful
> adjunct to them. And, of course, some are very hard to find, or to
> afford. I've photocopied three
> volumes of Bronson so far, for example, and will do the fourth as soon
> as I'm able; I'll also be
> after the cd version when it appears, income permitting; but I'll be
> using it mainly as an index to
> the hard copy.
>
> Malcolm Douglas
>
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

At 10:16 PM 7/6/2004 +0100, Malcolm Douglas wrote:
>I've been compiling a listing of books and journals relating to folk
>song which are available online in some form or another. There's quite a
>bit as it turns out
>(formatted in varying degrees of usability) and more turns up all the
>time. There's more that I
>haven't had time to add yet, and doubtless also a good deal that I don't
>know about. Some of the
>facsimiles are good enough to get a fair print from. The listings are at
>
>http://www.folk-network.com/directory/links.html
>
>They are accompanied by what I hope are helpful comments, though they are
>subjective and may in some
>cases be unfair. If anyone cares to look at it, do please let me know
>about errors or omissions.Malcolm,What a good collection this is.  I've been interested in popular
collections of ballads (like Lang and Bates and the Oxford book of).  Your
list will be very useful to me as I work on that project.  Thanks much.-- Bill McCarthyWilliam Bernard McCarthy
Emeritus Professor of English
The Pennsylvania State University
Phone: 814 371 1056
Fax: 814 375 4784
E-mail: [unmask]

I received this today as part of a daily stream of postings on NCLB.
Thought it might be of interest            NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND HAS TEACHERS SINGING PROTEST SONGS
SOME LET THEIR MUSIC DO THE TALKING AGAINST BUSH'S EDUCATION POLICY
                             USA Today -- July 7, 2004
                                        by Greg ToppoWashington-- At first, Lily Eskelsen's sparkling alto lends her the air
of a latter-day Joan Baez. She's strumming a guitar softly -- how far
behind can the songs be about the coal miners?But the former Utah teacher's subject soon becomes clear:A bureaucrat came to our townAnd at first we thought he jested,He said, ''When I get through with you folks,There'll be no child left untested.''She performed the song (with the unforgettable hook ''If we have to test
their butts off, there'll be no child's behind left'') this week at the
National Education Association's annual meeting. The aim was partly to
get the crowd of nearly 9,000 teachers pumped up, partly to promote her
new CD.It's part of a small, homespun protest movement emerging as frustrated
teachers, parents and activists strap on guitars to decry the burden of
standardized tests under the second year of President Bush's
far-reaching No Child Left Behind education reform law.''It shows how much opposition to No Child Left Behind has permeated the
popular culture, at least with educators,'' says Bob Schaeffer of the
Center for Fair & Open Testing, which has criticized Bush's education
policies.The law requires that students in grades three through eight take annual
reading and math tests and that their scores increase each year. By
2014, the law says, virtually 100% of students must read and do math at
grade level.''The standard is perfection,'' says Eskelsen, the NEA's
secretary-treasurer. Though that's a laudable goal, she says, with
existing resources, it's nearly impossible.Teachers ''think it's phony and get very angry when someone calls it
'high standards,' '' says Eskelsen, who pressed 4,000 CDs to sell at $15
each as a fundraiser for NEA's political action committee.Another CD, released in May, with lyrics by former Fort Collins, Colo.,
teacher Cheryl Miller Thurston, features more songs from a teacher's
point of view, including one with this refrain:No child's left behind, in America.No child's left behind, guaranteed.No child's left behind, in America.But, honey, they're losing me!The three-song CD, produced by Cottonwood Press and sold online,
collects ''arguments that I hear from all over the country,'' says
Thurston, who plays accordion on two songs. ''I just see this malaise.''Andrew Rotherham, director of education policy for the Progressive
Policy Institute, which supports No Child Left Behind, says the law
''still enjoys considerable support,'' even if some teachers are fed up.
''A lot of teachers are frustrated with the stridency on both sides.
Thoughtfulness is not the coin of the realm -- stridency is. If you want
to break through, that's what you have to resort to.''Perhaps the slickest CD is due this month from an eclectic group of
blues, folk and bluegrass musicians. Titled No Child Left Behind? Bring
Back the Joy, the 15-song collection features Tom Chapin and former
Kingston Trio member George Grove.Like Eskelsen's effort, the CD is a fundraiser -- this one for an
alternative school in Alabama. Supporters put the word out that they
were looking for material, and they got 35 songs. ''We've got enough for
another go-round,'' Milwaukee record producer Eldon Lee says.George F. Madaus
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

A great resource but you need my links:Conrad Bladey's Beuk of Newcassel Sangs
http://www.geocities.com/matalzi/geordiesang.html
Hundreds and hundreds of lyrics and tunes as well as other song resources
for the Northeast of England.The Ulster/Orange/Unionist/Loyalist Songbook
A large collection of the neglected and often censored ballads of this
important tradition. Growing all the time
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5567/ooooo.htmlConrad BladeyBill McCarthy wrote:
>
> At 10:16 PM 7/6/2004 +0100, Malcolm Douglas wrote:
> >I've been compiling a listing of books and journals relating to folk
> >song which are available online in some form or another. There's quite a
> >bit as it turns out
> >(formatted in varying degrees of usability) and more turns up all the
> >time. There's more that I
> >haven't had time to add yet, and doubtless also a good deal that I don't
> >know about. Some of the
> >facsimiles are good enough to get a fair print from. The listings are at
> >
> >http://www.folk-network.com/directory/links.html
> >
> >They are accompanied by what I hope are helpful comments, though they are
> >subjective and may in some
> >cases be unfair. If anyone cares to look at it, do please let me know
> >about errors or omissions.
>
> Malcolm,
>
> What a good collection this is.  I've been interested in popular
> collections of ballads (like Lang and Bates and the Oxford book of).  Your
> list will be very useful to me as I work on that project.  Thanks much.
>
> -- Bill McCarthy
>
> William Bernard McCarthy
> Emeritus Professor of English
> The Pennsylvania State University
> Phone: 814 371 1056
> Fax: 814 375 4784
> E-mail: [unmask]--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

Does anyone know anything about E. Richard Shipp and his books?  I've
just bought his "Intermountain folk: songs of their days and ways"
(1922).  The eBay listing called it "Intermountain Folk Songs of
Their Days and Ways" and characterized its contents as "cowboy
songs."  The first title, with the colon after "folk," is listed in
WorldCat, where I learned that Shipp authored numerous law books, one
on Alaska, and one called "Rangeland melodies" (1923).I fear that the colon in the title might mean that "Intermountain
Folk" is not a book of traditional songs but rather original poetry
by the author.  Does anyone know about this?  What about "Rangeland
Melodies," which appears to be a much scarcer book?Thanks.John

I have acquired a scrapbook of bawdy american broadsides from 1884-97
from upstate NY on the Erie Canal.   This scrapbook is also part
manuscript because it give the written song or poem first then the
printed broadside example.  See example broadside here:
(http://immortalia.com/lovely-sadie.jpg ).This scrapbook has been water damaged and has different varieties of
black, green and pink mold on the pages  -- making some of the
broadsides illedgible.  This mold now appears dormant and the
scrapbook is being stored in a low humidity location.  I would
like to donate this to a library with the facilities to restore it and
then make it available digitally.   Any suggestions?Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~
My bawdy songs, toasts and recitations website: www.immortalia.com----- Original Message -----
From: "Conrad Bladey ***Peasant****" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 8:36 AM
Subject: Re: James MaidmentA great resource but you need my links:Conrad Bladey's Beuk of Newcassel Sangs
http://www.geocities.com/matalzi/geordiesang.html
Hundreds and hundreds of lyrics and tunes as well as other song
resources
for the Northeast of England.The Ulster/Orange/Unionist/Loyalist Songbook
A large collection of the neglected and often censored ballads of this
important tradition. Growing all the time
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5567/ooooo.htmlConrad BladeyBill McCarthy wrote:
>
> At 10:16 PM 7/6/2004 +0100, Malcolm Douglas wrote:
> >I've been compiling a listing of books and journals relating to
folk
> >song which are available online in some form or another. There's
quite a
> >bit as it turns out
> >(formatted in varying degrees of usability) and more turns up all
the
> >time. There's more that I
> >haven't had time to add yet, and doubtless also a good deal that I
don't
> >know about. Some of the
> >facsimiles are good enough to get a fair print from. The listings
are at
> >
> >http://www.folk-network.com/directory/links.html
> >
> >They are accompanied by what I hope are helpful comments, though
they are
> >subjective and may in some
> >cases be unfair. If anyone cares to look at it, do please let me
know
> >about errors or omissions.
>
> Malcolm,
>
> What a good collection this is.  I've been interested in popular
> collections of ballads (like Lang and Bates and the Oxford book of).
Your
> list will be very useful to me as I work on that project.  Thanks
much.
>
> -- Bill McCarthy
>
> William Bernard McCarthy
> Emeritus Professor of English
> The Pennsylvania State University
> Phone: 814 371 1056
> Fax: 814 375 4784
> E-mail: [unmask]--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>>  >   See example broadside here:
>  >
>(<http://immortalia.com/lovely-sadie.jpg>http://immortalia.com/lovely-sadie
.jpg
>).<<It'd be interesting to identify *all* of the people mentioned here.
I take it that "Bill McKinley" is the president.>>Okay, let's see -- I know a few of them.Grover = Grover Cleveland, the only person elected to two non-consecutive
terms as US president.Ruth = (I think) Grover Cleveland's illegitimate daughter. ("Ma, Ma, where's
my Pa?/Gone to the White House, ha-ha-ha!") Cleveland owned up to his
paternity, and got elected anyway. He told his campaign managers, "Tell the
truth to the people." If I recall correctly, the "Baby Ruth" candy bar was
*not* named for Cleveland's daughter.Jim Blaine = James G. Blaine, who ran against Cleveland. ("Blaine, Blaine,
James G. Blaine/The continental liar from the state of Maine")Grandpa Ben = possibly Benjamin Harrison?Siamese Twins = the original Siamese twins, Chang and Eng, exhibited by P.
T. Barnum. They lived to a ripe old age, married (two wives) and fathered
children.No clue about the rest; I assume they were politicians of the day. And what
was the Broadway Cable? Oh -- never mind, it ran from 59th St. to 35th St.
Good old Google!While I'm there...Google also tells me that a Dr. John Frelinghuysen Talmage
was a fashionable homeopathic physician in New York in the latter part of
the 19th century.Inspector Byrnes = probably Thomas Byrnes, chief police inspector of New
York City in the 1890s, who suggested in 1891 that Jack the Ripper may have
resided briefly in the Queens County jail.
(http://www.astorialic.org/starjournal/1800s/1891may.shtm)Boss Platt = Thomas Collier Platt, New York machine politician.Roswell Pettibone Flower of Watertown, NY was a Wall St. broker and
politician, who served a term in Congress after defeating William Waldorf
Astor (now *there's* a New York name to conjure with!). He replaced Levi P.
Morton, who resigned to become ambassador to France and at some point or
another was Vice-President.  Flower also served as subway commissioner
during the period when the NY subway system was being created, and once
turned down the nomination for governor, which went instead to Grover
Cleveland. He seems to have been quite a prominent character.
http://www.gegoux.com/gov_flow.htmBenjamin Franklin Butler was a Union general in the Civil War and later a
politician; in 1884 he received the nominations of the Anti-Monopoly and
Greenback parties for President. Quoting from infoplease.com, "Regarded by
many as an unprincipled demagogue of great ability, Butler aroused intense
antagonisms and was nearly always in controversy." Especially after he met
Sadie.Peace,
Paul

JOHN MOULDEN
I'm rather surprised that, despite creases and curls in the paper, the
lines of print are absolutely straight and uniform. Despite the
appearance of discolouring on the paper, the print seems to stand in
front of its medium.Is this a computer reconstruction of the sheet, computer generated
type above a background rather than a scan or digital photograph?I'm not crying fake but the last three years of my life has been spent
looking at these things and it doesn't compute - or perhaps it
computes too well.JOHN MEHLBERG
I purchased the scrapbook on ebay -- not *everything* gets seen by
Dolores -- over a year ago.  When I received the broadsides the
"Lovely Sadie" broadside was loose because the glue gave way when the
scrapbook was water damaged.  It was scanned on a lowly hp
multi-function printer/scanner at 600dpi.  I color adjusted it using
the Visioneer Paperport software (very easy to use) then exported it
to a TIF file.  This TIF file was reduced & optimized using Jpeg
Wizard.   My goal when I made the JPG was to make it easily legible to
Ed Cray who shares an interest in bawdy songs.   Perhaps I succeeded
too well.I will give you digital photographs in a day or two which will show
more of the broadsides and the extent of the damage to the scrapbook.
I would have given photos by now if I wasn't experiencing a power
outage at home (http://tinyurl.com/yw25n).  I am currently staying at
a friend's apartment.Ed Cray & I both think that this scrapbook should go to the Archive of
American Folk Culture at the Library of Congress.  I have tried a
couple of times to contact the AAFC at the LOC but have had no
success.  As with most things, many people believe that they have a
rare, valuable collection that should be accepted.  Perhaps they
simply don't have the time to deal with such a small donation or just
haven't taken me seriously.  I have never received a response.----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
To: [unmask]
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 4:26 AM
Subject: Re: Digital Collections & Preservation.I'm rather surprised that, despite creases and curls in the paper, the
lines of print are absolutely straight and uniform. Despite the
appearance of discolouring on the paper, the print seems to stand in
front of its medium.Is this a computer reconstruction of the sheet, computer generated
type above a background rather than a scan or digital photograph?I'm not crying fake but the last three years of my life has been spent
looking at these things and it doesn't compute - or perhaps it
computes too well.John Moulden

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mehlberg" <[unmask]><<Ed Cray & I both think that this scrapbook should go to the Archive of
American Folk Culture at the Library of Congress.  I have tried a
couple of times to contact the AAFC at the LOC but have had no
success.  As with most things, many people believe that they have a
rare, valuable collection that should be accepted.  Perhaps they
simply don't have the time to deal with such a small donation or just
haven't taken me seriously.  I have never received a response.>>If you've been e-mailing, the mail may have gotten trashed by their
ferocious antispam software; I've had a couple of things disappear into the
ether that way. The only good way to get in touch with them these days is by
phone; letters take weeks to arrive and get zapped with high-energy gamma
rays or the equivalent, thanks to the anthrax scare.Peace,
Paul

Hi!        John is right. I don't find everything on Ebay. In fact, I don't
think that anyone can. Between the spelling mistakes that sellers make
and other factors, no search or set of searches is perfect. I keep
making changes to find more. The process is constant.        Anyway here is what I was able to find this week. :-)        SONGSTERS        6911095387 - The National American Songster, 1857, $5 (ends
Jul-11-04 20:23:44 PDT)        6910735290 - TONY PASTOR'S "444" COMBINATION SONGSTER inc. The
THE CAVALIER SONGSTER, 1865, $6.99 (ends Jul-12-04 07:13:44 PDT)        3920057555 - Morley's Wonderful Eight Songster, $24.99 (ends
Jul-12-04 19:33:30 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3733719140 - 80 English Folk Songs by Sharp & Karpeles, 1983,
3.31 GBP (ends Jul-10-04 09:16:16 PDT)        6910375993 - Irish Minstrelsy, 1888, 4.99 GBP (ends Jul-10-04
12:22:48 PDT)        6910810573 - THE SEVEN SEAS SHANTY BOOK by Sampson, 1927, 1.50
GBP (ends Jul-10-04 13:03:24 PDT)        3735160951 - A SELECTION OF COLLECTED FOLK-SONGS Volume 1 by
Sharp & Williams, 1964 edition, 0.99 GBP (ends Jul-10-04 23:50:55 PDT)        6910460019 - Humor in American Song by Loesser, 1942, $9.99
(ends Jul-11-04 00:46:58 PDT)        3734395717 - PINT POT & BILLY by Fahey, 1977, $5 AU (ends
Jul-11-04 04:13:50 PDT)        3733928545 - Cerddi Portinllaen Ship Songs by Davies, 1954
reprint, 9.99 GBP (ends Jul-11-04 11:13:49 PDT)        3730296897 - FOLK SONGS OF LANCASHIRE by Harding, 1980, 7.50 GBP
(ends Jul-11-04 12:40:00 PDT)        6909715927 - Shirburn Ballads by Clark, 1907, 19 GBP (ends
Jul-11-04 13:10:00 PDT)        3919879778 - Camps Songs of the United States Army and Navy by
Clark, 1917?, $5 (ends Jul-11-04 13:46:24 PDT)        3734512235 - Kerr's Buchan Bothy Ballads: books 1 & 2, 1956?,
$3.84 (ends Jul-11-04 14:01:31 PDT)        6910072242 - Devil's Ditties by Thomas, 1931, $45 (ends Jul-11-04
19:00:23 PDT)        7909411203 - Shimmy Shimmy Coke-Ca-Pop! A Collection of City
Children's Street Games and Rhymes by Langstaff, $4 (ends Jul-12-04
17:24:45 PDT)        6908557933 - Ballad Book by Allingham, 1904 edition, $6.99 (ends
Jul-13-04 18:45:00 PDT)        7909676074 - Robin Hood a collection of all the ancient poems,
songs and ballades by Ritson?, 1823, 70 GBP (ends Jul-14-04 07:36:48 PDT)        6911229081 - Cheap Print and Popular Piety 1550-1640 by Watt,
1994, $20 (ends Jul-14-04 13:51:22 PDT)        3920314818 - Songs of the Cowboys by Thorp, 1921 edition, $12.99
(ends Jul-14-04 15:08:30 PDT)        6911404964 - TRAVELLERS SONGS FROM ENGLAND & SCOTLAND by MacColl
& Seeger, 1977, $89.99 (ends Jul-15-04 07:18:56 PDT)        6911452863 - Singa Hipsy Doodle Folk songs of West Virginia by
Boette, 1972, $6.50 (ends Jul-15-04 09:35:19 PDT)        3735261281 - SONGS and BALLADS of the Maine LUMBERJACKS by Gray,
1924, $4.99 (ends Jul-15-04 09:54:59 PDT)        6910779752 - SHANTYMEN & SHANTYBOYS by Doerflinger, 1951, 15 GBP
(ends Jul-15-04 11:15:17 PDT)        3734727139 - SONGS AND BALLADS OF NORTHERN ENGLAND by Stokoe,
1974 edition, 4 GBP (ends Jul-15-04 16:23:12 PDT)        3734792674 - GARNERS GAY English Folk Songs Collected by Fred
Hamer, 1967, 4.99 GBP (ends Jul-16-04 02:28:47 PDT)        6910210333 - The Oxford Book of Ballads by Quiller-Couch, 1927,
0.01 GBP (ends Jul-16-04 14:44:00 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        4023231186 - The Barley Mow Songs from the Village Inn, EP, 195?,
2.99 GBP (ends Jul-16-04 14:31:43 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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No kidding. Thanks Dolores.CA
>
>" I don't know how Dolores does it!!..."

Other than Ranson's Wexford collection, are there any collections of Irish
songs that have a fair number of (serious) ballads about shipwrecks (I don't
count either of O Lochlainn's books because the Avondale, Vartry and
Gwendoline wreck ballads are more-or-less humorous).  Ranson's _Songs of the
Wexford Coast_ is similar to the Nova Scotia and, especially, Newfoundland
collections in recording ballads of tragic wrecks and heroic rescues.
Considering the number of wrecks along the Irish coast I would expect there
to be local wreck ballads.  Am I wrong about that?  If there are not other
collections of those songs have they just not been printed or is creation of
such ballads pretty much limited to Wexford?Ben Schwartz