----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Notable omission from my list>I didn't point out that I had omitted Bob Dylan from my list, after a
>good bit of agonizing. I became convinced when my daughter (age 42)
>pointed out that Dylan didn't get anybody into folk music--he got a lot
>of folkies into rock.<<I doubt this.Dylan's worship of Woody must have led a significant number of people
to Woody's traditional heritage and thus to traditional song.
Dylan's amplification was the beginning, as I understand it, of his
rock image, but in fact, I'm not sure that Dylan ever did anything
that could properly be called "rock," not that it matters, since
"rock" seems to have been a meaningless, catch-all term from the
beginning.>>Not gonna get into the "what is rock" discussion, which is even more
pointless than "what is folk", but if you listen to, for example, Dylan's
live recording with the Band from 1966, that there's rock music, *whatever*
the term may mean. (It's finally been reissued by Columbia as part of their
"Bootleg Series".)Peace,
Paul

Partridge's Dict of Hist Slang gives
Peg Trantum's, gone to.  Dead: from c1690 by 1860. Occasionally Peg
Crancum's (Ned Ward). Note that in East Anglia Peg trantum is extant for a
Hoyden.(whatever that is?)
Hope this is of some use.
SteveG

>Not gonna get into the "what is rock" discussion, which is even more
>pointless than "what is folk"....
>Peace,
>PaulYes, these are tough taxonomic questions.  The answers are, at best,
very fuzzy, and, at worst, and totally unsatisfactory.  Yet, people
use these terms, and Dick is trying to answer a question that is
posed in a most elliptical way.--
john garst    [unmask]

I agree that "rock" is a meaningless, catch-all term (unlike "folk"?) In
asking around, though, I haven't found many people that identify Dylan
with folk music (regardless of how he started out.)
dickJohn Garst wrote:>> I didn't point out that I had omitted Bob Dylan from my list, after a
>> good bit of agonizing. I became convinced when my daughter (age 42)
>> pointed out that Dylan didn't get anybody into folk music--he got a lot
>> of folkies into rock.
>
>
> I doubt this.
>
> Dylan's worship of Woody must have led a significant number of people
> to Woody's traditional heritage and thus to traditional song.
> Dylan's amplification was the beginning, as I understand it, of his
> rock image, but in fact, I'm not sure that Dylan ever did anything
> that could properly be called "rock," not that it matters, since
> "rock" seems to have been a meaningless, catch-all term from the
> beginning.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

>I agree that "rock" is a meaningless, catch-all term (unlike "folk"?) In
>asking around, though, I haven't found many people that identify Dylan
>with folk music (regardless of how he started out.)
>dick
>
>John Garst wrote:
>
>>>I didn't point out that I had omitted Bob Dylan from my list, after a
>>>good bit of agonizing. I became convinced when my daughter (age 42)
>>>pointed out that Dylan didn't get anybody into folk music--he got a lot
>>>of folkies into rock.
>>
>>
>>I doubt this.
>>
>>Dylan's worship of Woody must have led a significant number of people
>>to Woody's traditional heritage and thus to traditional song.
>>Dylan's amplification was the beginning, as I understand it, of his
>>rock image, but in fact, I'm not sure that Dylan ever did anything
>>that could properly be called "rock," not that it matters, since
>>"rock" seems to have been a meaningless, catch-all term from the
>>beginning.
>>--
>>john garst    [unmask]I suspect that the identification of Dylan with "folk" or "rock" is
generational, that is, youngsters will say "rock," those who were
around earlier will say "folk."--
john garst    [unmask]

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I'm bidding on this        3727518224 - Songs of the Midlands by Palmer, 1972, 4.99 GBP
(ends Jun-06-04 12:25:22 PDT)Cheers
Simon

On 6/1/04, John Garst wrote:>>Point #2 has to do with religious music. Is this really
>>folk music? One thing that has astonished me, in compiling
>>the Ballad Index, is that there is very little real
>>religious folk music, especially in the White tradition.
>>(Even in the Black tradition, much of what there is is
>>mixed up with freedom songs -- a related but
>>by-no-means-the-same genre.)
>>
>>At first I thought this was collectors' bias. But if one
>>looks at collections like Randolph's that don't have
>>collectors' bias, the point remains. Many of Randolph's
>>informants sang religious songs -- but they were clearly
>>straight out of hymn books. It may be "folk" music in the
>>sense that people are singing it, but it's really not
>>folk music in the sense that it's getting handed down
>>from generation to generation. If one is seeking religious
>>songs, one should take great care with this.
>>
>>--
>>Bob Waltz
>
>Well, I guess we have to go back, somehow, and retitle all of G. P.
>Jackson's books, especially "Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America."
>I don't think that any of his other titles contain "folk song"
>explicitly, but they all contain "spirituals," so I guess we further
>need to stop thinking of spirituals as folk songs.This is getting nasty, and I'm not sure why. I'm making an
observation, and I'm surprised by it -- but it stands. Most
of the material collected in Randolph and Brown (the collections
which are most open to religious material) shows the evidence
of written tradition. Many other collections show no religious
material at all. Now the collections no religious material must,
of course, be suspected of collector's bias. But where there is
religious material, it is hard to suspect bias.Nor do I see how Jackson changes that. I don't have all his
books, but the ones I have are not field collections. They are
the songs sung *in the churches* by the people he was studying.
How is that different from us singing along at a concert?A song may, I suppose, be a folk song if it is sung only
in a specific context (e.g. a work song). It certainly
may become a folk song despite being derived from print.
But if it is sung only in a specific context (churches
and camp meetings), and if in that context it refers
back to an official and authorized version, is it still a
folk song? I can only say that that seems an extreme
stretch to me.Nor does the use of secular tunes in religious music, and
vice versa, prove much. Think of how many hymns the Wobblies
appropriated! Indeed, the practice goes back at least to Luther,
and -- given what is found in ancient Bible manuscripts in the
way of tune indications -- I actually suspect that it goes back
to the ancient Orthodox church.If you can cite counter-evidence, then please cite it. I haven't
checked *every* field collection out there by any means! But
the test, ultimately, must be field collected religious songs
evidence of oral tradition.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 01 June 2004 19:40
Subject: Re: Help re Purg Peg> Partridge's Dict of Hist Slang gives
> Peg Trantum's, gone to.  Dead: from c1690 by 1860. Occasionally Peg
> Crancum's (Ned Ward). Note that in East Anglia Peg trantum is extant for a
> Hoyden.(whatever that is?)Also Peg Trantum, with much the same definition, in Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue (Grose et al.,
1811). [Online transcription at http://www.harvestfields.netfirms.com/]The following is from Sir Thomas Urquhart's translation (1653-4), completed by Peter Antony Motteux
(1693-1708), of Rabelais' Gargantua and Pantagruel, 5, VIII: How with much ado we got a sight of the
pope-hawk."Panurge stared at him like a dead pig, examining exactly his figure, size, and motions. Then with a
loud voice he said, A curse light on the hatcher of the ill bird; o' my word, this is a filthy
whoop-hooper. Tush, speak softly, said Aedituus; by G--, he has a pair of ears, as formerly Michael
de Matiscones remarked. What then? returned Panurge; so hath a whoopcat. So, said Aedituus; if he
but hear you speak such another blasphemous word, you had as good be damned. Do you see that basin
yonder in his cage? Out of it shall sally thunderbolts and lightnings, storms, bulls, and the devil
and all, that will sink you down to Peg Trantum's, an hundred fathom under ground. It were better to
drink and be merry, quoth Friar John."The above from an online transcription at http://www.globusz.com/. My old student set of Rabelais is
in a box somewhere, so I can't say what the French term was.Malcolm Douglas

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Most importantly one need to make a distinction between, shall we say,
"product" and "vision." Some collections, the "better" ones, begin with
the desire and passion of a collector wishing to make a point. The Smith
Anthology, "Voice of the People" series and the "Bristol Sessions" are
excellent examples. Others, "product," are just thrown together from
odds and ends in the tape library of a record company in the fond hopes
that some sap will buy it because it has "folk" in the title.Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
>
><<        Just out of curiosity -- what is required to make an album an
>anthology?  In general, I've been considering it to be like a sampler --
>selections from other recordings issued by the recording company in that
>particular field -- not recordings for this specific disc.
>
>        One thing that I can think of which might qualify as an
>anthology, depending on your definition, and which *I* at least find to
>be excellent, is the recording of sea songs put out by the National
>Geographic Society back in the late 1970s (IIRC).  It has cuts by
>several artists, all excellent examples of the revival singers of
>shantys.  It works *very* well as a stand-alone album IMHO.>>
>
>Dunno about anybody else, but I'm using "anthology" as a synonym for
>"recording with multiple artists". Some of the anthologies I've mentioned,
>such as the Harry Smith or Yazoo issues, pull together previously published
>materials into a unified whole; others, like the Lomax Southern Journey
>recordings, publish recordings by diverse artists de novo.
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>
>
>

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On 6/1/04, Clifford Ocheltree wrote:>Most importantly one need to make a distinction between, shall we say,
>"product" and "vision." Some collections, the "better" ones, begin with
>the desire and passion of a collector wishing to make a point. The Smith
>Anthology, "Voice of the People" series and the "Bristol Sessions" are
>excellent examples. Others, "product," are just thrown together from
>odds and ends in the tape library of a record company in the fond hopes
>that some sap will buy it because it has "folk" in the title.Could we call this the distinction between CMH and Folkways? :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Malcolm:Jesus H!  I am in awe of your memory (or Google).Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Douglas <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2004 4:04 pm
Subject: Re: Help re Purg Peg> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: 01 June 2004 19:40
> Subject: Re: Help re Purg Peg
>
>
> > Partridge's Dict of Hist Slang gives
> > Peg Trantum's, gone to.  Dead: from c1690 by 1860. Occasionally Peg
> > Crancum's (Ned Ward). Note that in East Anglia Peg trantum is extant for a
> > Hoyden.(whatever that is?)
>
>
> Also Peg Trantum, with much the same definition, in Dictionary of the
> Vulgar Tongue (Grose et al.,
> 1811). [Online transcription at http://www.harvestfields.netfirms.com/]
>
>
> The following is from Sir Thomas Urquhart's translation (1653-4),
> completed by Peter Antony Motteux
> (1693-1708), of Rabelais' Gargantua and Pantagruel, 5, VIII: How with much
> ado we got a sight of the
> pope-hawk.
>
> "Panurge stared at him like a dead pig, examining exactly his figure,
> size, and motions. Then with a
> loud voice he said, A curse light on the hatcher of the ill bird; o' my
> word, this is a filthy
> whoop-hooper. Tush, speak softly, said Aedituus; by G--, he has a pair of
> ears, as formerly Michael
> de Matiscones remarked. What then? returned Panurge; so hath a whoopcat.
> So, said Aedituus; if he
> but hear you speak such another blasphemous word, you had as good be
> damned. Do you see that basin
> yonder in his cage? Out of it shall sally thunderbolts and lightnings,
> storms, bulls, and the devil
> and all, that will sink you down to Peg Trantum's, an hundred fathom under
> ground. It were better to
> drink and be merry, quoth Friar John."
>
> The above from an online transcription at http://www.globusz.com/. My old
> student set of Rabelais is
> in a box somewhere, so I can't say what the French term was.
>
> Malcolm Douglas
>

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On 2004/06/01 at 02:02:20PM -0400, John Garst wrote:> >The Memorial University of Newfoundland has opened a web site entitled
> >"MacEdward Leach and the Songs of Atlantic Canada".
> >See http://collections.ic.gc.ca/leach/        [ ... ]> Thanks, Becky.
>
> The content is terrific.  The color scheme of the site is horrible,
> at least on my machine: Texts are in black against a medium dark blue
> background - not easy to read (for tired old eyes).        Hmm ... must be browser or system dependent.  I see a medium
blue-green text on a light blue background, and that is rather easy
reading for me.        However, most browsers have a way to override the foreground and
background colors.  Go into the menus (on Mozilla, and presumably on
recent Netscape as well):        edit/preferences/appearance/colors        And you will find a button for:                 "Use my chosen colors, ignoring
                 the colors and background image specified"and clicking that button, followed by clicking the "reload" button gets
me black text on a white background (the defaults), or I could have
selected my own preferences for both.        I don't (and can't) use Internet Explorer, so I don't know for
sure, but I have heard that there are similar options somewhere in there
to override the color selections of a page.        Remember to set it back when you are done, or all web sites will
come up in black and white, except for things provided as images of one
sort or another, including logos.BTW     Since you see different colors than I do, it reminds me of one
        user who visited my page and was having trouble with the
        background and text -- seeing very different colors than I saw.
        It turns out that he had IE, and if he changed to Netscape, he
        saw my intended colors.        And -- farther testing showed that if he selected a different
        number of colors in his version of Windows, even IE showed him
        my normal colors.  IIRC, he had 16-bit colors selected, and
        going to 24-bit fixed things for him.        Best of luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 02 June 2004 03:55
Subject: Re: Help re Purg Peg> Malcolm:
>
> Jesus H!  I am in awe of your memory (or Google).
>
> EdCredit for that is due not to me, but to Steve Gardham for "Trantum", which was a form I hadn't
thought to look for; and to Google for the two references. I'll have to dig out Rabelais, though,
just to see what the French  (if it was actually something equivalent) might have been.Collaborative enquiries are always, I think, the best; and easily the most satisfying.Malcolm

Sandy et al:
I am bidding on the Forget Me Not Songster, which I'd very much like to get
in order to aid me in my study of those songsters.  (An article on the
subject is forthcoming in American Music in 2005).  However, I do have two
copies of the FMNS published by Locke & Bubier, one of which I'd be willing
to part with.  (Apologies if I transgress the non-commercial spirit of this
Forum.)
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandy Paton" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 06/01/04> Yes, but I'm not going to go any higher. If you need
> it, go for it. I have Brown, and two copies of
> Wheeler's "Steamboatin' Days," so I'm not going after
> those, although the signed Wheeler would be nice to
> own, I think. The "For Get Me Not" songster really
> intrigues me, however, after seeing a text for
> Reynardine taken from it that almost word-for-word
> dplicates that sung by Margaret MacArthur & Joe
> Hickerson. Hope that one soesn't go any higher!
>      Sandy Paton
>
> --- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]> wrote:
> > On 6/1/04, Dolores Nichols wrote:
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > >        6901500498 - Folk Songs of Northumberland
> > by Polwarth, 1967, $4
> > >(ends Jun-03-04 10:48:18 PDT)
> >
> > Is that Sandy Paton I see bidding on this one?
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > >        6901616618 - The Frank C. Brown Collection
> > of North Carolina
> > >Folklore, 7 volumes, 1952-1964, $24.99 (ends
> > Jun-03-04 18:44:59 PDT)
> >
> > I doubt I have a prayer at getting this one, given
> > how high it's
> > been bid already, but -- is anyone here bidding on
> > this one? I'm
> > not going to get into a three- or four-way fight.
> >
> > [ ... ]
> >
> > >        6902272337 - BALLADS and FOLK SONGS of the
> > SOUTHWEST by Moore,
> > >1964, $19.99 (ends Jun-06-04 19:02:02 PDT)
> >
> > No bids on this one as of right now. Is anyone here
> > after it?
> > --
> > Bob Waltz
> > [unmask]
> >
> > "The one thing we learn from history --
> >    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

As far as I'm concerned, Norm, it's all yours. I was
bidding on it, since it seems to include a pretty
sizeable bunch of traditional songs (i.e. Reynardine),
but I've already dropped out of the bidding. Good luck
to you in the quest.
     Sandy Paton--- Norm Cohen <[unmask]> wrote:
> Sandy et al:
> I am bidding on the Forget Me Not Songster, which
> I'd very much like to get
> in order to aid me in my study of those songsters.
> (An article on the
> subject is forthcoming in American Music in 2005).
> However, I do have two
> copies of the FMNS published by Locke & Bubier, one
> of which I'd be willing
> to part with.  (Apologies if I transgress the
> non-commercial spirit of this
> Forum.)
> Norm
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sandy Paton" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 9:47 AM
> Subject: Re: Ebay List - 06/01/04
>
>
> > Yes, but I'm not going to go any higher. If you
> need
> > it, go for it. I have Brown, and two copies of
> > Wheeler's "Steamboatin' Days," so I'm not going
> after
> > those, although the signed Wheeler would be nice
> to
> > own, I think. The "For Get Me Not" songster really
> > intrigues me, however, after seeing a text for
> > Reynardine taken from it that almost word-for-word
> > dplicates that sung by Margaret MacArthur & Joe
> > Hickerson. Hope that one soesn't go any higher!
> >      Sandy Paton
> >
> > --- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > On 6/1/04, Dolores Nichols wrote:
> > >
> > > [ ... ]
> > >
> > > >        6901500498 - Folk Songs of
> Northumberland
> > > by Polwarth, 1967, $4
> > > >(ends Jun-03-04 10:48:18 PDT)
> > >
> > > Is that Sandy Paton I see bidding on this one?
> > >
> > > [ ... ]
> > >
> > > >        6901616618 - The Frank C. Brown
> Collection
> > > of North Carolina
> > > >Folklore, 7 volumes, 1952-1964, $24.99 (ends
> > > Jun-03-04 18:44:59 PDT)
> > >
> > > I doubt I have a prayer at getting this one,
> given
> > > how high it's
> > > been bid already, but -- is anyone here bidding
> on
> > > this one? I'm
> > > not going to get into a three- or four-way
> fight.
> > >
> > > [ ... ]
> > >
> > > >        6902272337 - BALLADS and FOLK SONGS of
> the
> > > SOUTHWEST by Moore,
> > > >1964, $19.99 (ends Jun-06-04 19:02:02 PDT)
> > >
> > > No bids on this one as of right now. Is anyone
> here
> > > after it?
> > > --
> > > Bob Waltz
> > > [unmask]
> > >
> > > "The one thing we learn from history --
> > >    is that no one ever learns from history."
> >

[Are there/have there been] commercially available collections including
songs printed by Ranson in _Songs of the Wexford Coast_?  Cassettes are
fine.
If the answer is "yes" who are the likely vendors?

>>> The Memorial University of Newfoundland has opened a web site entitled
>>> "MacEdward Leach and the Songs of Atlantic Canada".
>>> See http://collections.ic.gc.ca/leach/
>> The content is terrific.  The color scheme of the site is horrible,
>> at least on my machine: Texts are in black against a medium dark blue
>> background - not easy to read (for tired old eyes).
> Hmm ... must be browser or system dependent.  I see a medium
> blue-green text on a light blue background, and that is rather easy
> reading for me.
> However, most browsers have a way to override the foreground and
> background colors. http://collections.ic.gc.ca/leach/I can do that in iCab 2.9.7 for the Mac (the browser I normally use) -
I'm using a greyscale monitor and the texts appear as black on white.What I can't do is force the thing to load images when the server
stalls (I haven't managed to see the bottom half of the main homepage
image yet), or display some of them in the right aspect ratio - the
menu buttons are weirdly squashed.Here's iCab's error report on the homepage:Warning (1/1): <!DOCTYPE> is missing.
Warning (56/1): The attribute "TOPMARGIN" is not allowed for the tag <BODY>.
Error (56/1): The attribute "rightmargin" is not part of HTML.
Warning (56/1): The attribute "LEFTMARGIN" is not allowed for the tag <BODY>.
Error (61/1): The tag <CENTER> is not part of "HTML 4.0 Strict".
Error (63/14): In tag <IMG> the value "absmiddle" is not valid for attribute "ALIGN".
Error (63/145): The start tag for </A> can't be found.The missing DOCTYPE is a killer for many browsers.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

Hi, Norm, likewise i was bidding on the FMNS but dropped out when it
looked like it was going past my limit, but I'm very interested in your
duplicate copy, particularly if it has Kelly and Reynardine in.
How much do you want for it?
SteveG

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>On 6/1/04, John Garst wrote:
>
>>>Point #2 has to do with religious music. Is this really
>>>folk music? One thing that has astonished me, in compiling
>>>the Ballad Index, is that there is very little real
>>>religious folk music, especially in the White tradition.
>>>(Even in the Black tradition, much of what there is is
>>>mixed up with freedom songs -- a related but
>>>by-no-means-the-same genre.)
>>>
>>>At first I thought this was collectors' bias. But if one
>>>looks at collections like Randolph's that don't have
>>>collectors' bias, the point remains. Many of Randolph's
>>>informants sang religious songs -- but they were clearly
>>>straight out of hymn books. It may be "folk" music in the
>>>sense that people are singing it, but it's really not
>>>folk music in the sense that it's getting handed down
>>>from generation to generation. If one is seeking religious
>>>songs, one should take great care with this.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Bob Waltz
>>
>>Well, I guess we have to go back, somehow, and retitle all of G. P.
>>Jackson's books, especially "Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America."
>>I don't think that any of his other titles contain "folk song"
>>explicitly, but they all contain "spirituals," so I guess we further
>>need to stop thinking of spirituals as folk songs.
>
>This is getting nasty,Sorry - it was intended as a gentle jibe illustrating that your
definition of "folk" is not universally accepted.  I doubt that that
comes as a surprise.>and I'm not sure why. I'm making an
>observation, and I'm surprised by it -- but it stands. Most
>of the material collected in Randolph and Brown (the collections
>which are most open to religious material) shows the evidence
>of written tradition. Many other collections show no religious
>material at all. Now the collections no religious material must,
>of course, be suspected of collector's bias. But where there is
>religious material, it is hard to suspect bias.
>
>Nor do I see how Jackson changes that. I don't have all his
>books, but the ones I have are not field collections. They are
>the songs sung *in the churches* by the people he was studying.
>How is that different from us singing along at a concert?
>
>A song may, I suppose, be a folk song if it is sung only
>in a specific context (e.g. a work song). It certainly
>may become a folk song despite being derived from print.
>But if it is sung only in a specific context (churches
>and camp meetings), and if in that context it refers
>back to an official and authorized version, is it still a
>folk song? I can only say that that seems an extreme
>stretch to me.
>
>Nor does the use of secular tunes in religious music, and
>vice versa, prove much. Think of how many hymns the Wobblies
>appropriated! Indeed, the practice goes back at least to Luther,
>and -- given what is found in ancient Bible manuscripts in the
>way of tune indications -- I actually suspect that it goes back
>to the ancient Orthodox church.
>
>If you can cite counter-evidence, then please cite it. I haven't
>checked *every* field collection out there by any means! But
>the test, ultimately, must be field collected religious songs
>evidence of oral tradition.
>--
>Bob WaltzJackson's books *do* contain *some* field-collected material,
especially Another Sheaf of White Spirituals.  However, I think this
beside the point.  Different people use different criteria for
defining "folk."  Jackson himself, 'way back in the 1930-50s, when
things were less "liberal" in this regard than they are now, had no
problem at all with considering the materials he dealt with to be
folk music.Personally, I agree with another poster.  Fasola singing and related
genres are oral traditions supported by printed materials.  If you
doubt the "oral tradition" component, just listen to field recordings
and compare them, in style, with those of groups of trained, or even
plain vanilla, singers performing the same materials.Preceding and parallel with the fasola tradition is one of
camp-meeting songs/spirituals that were/are substantially orally
transmitted.  In the fasola tradition, many of these same songs are
arranged and published in 2, 3, or 4 vocal parts.  The two
traditions, camp-meeting/revival and fasola, are different.McDowell's "Songs of the Old Camp Ground" contains a number of these
songs from Tennessee oral tradition.  Texas folklore publications
contain many more from that state.  19th-century books like The
Revivalist (Joseph Hillman, 1868) contain many tune transcriptions
from oral tradition, as do some late-19th century gospel song books.
For example, "Wayfaring Stranger" and "Old Time Religion" are found
in Charlie D. Tillman's The Revival (1891, if my memory is correct).
The former was taken from the singing of the compiler's father and
the latter from the singing of a black camp-meeting congregation in
South Carolina.Until the mid 1980s, when they published their first denominational
hymnal, members of the Church of God in Christ gloried in their
purely oral tradition of church music.  The publication of the hymnal
was opposed by many, but they lost out to "progress."  Consequently,
today's COGIC music is nothing special.  Some of their old material
was issued on 78 rpm phonograph records and some texts were taken
from oral tradition and published in books/booklets.Oral tradition has rarely been the only component of the transmission
of folk songs, especially since the invention of printing.  Plenty of
transmission has occurred through print and, later, aural media.As I recall, Norm or Ed has a interesting definition of "folk" that
he has posted here several times?  Maybe both do!--
john garst    [unmask]

John et al:I have stayed out of the what-is-folk/25 CD discussion as I have nothing to add but confusion.As to my personal definition of "folk music":  It rests on just two principles.  Regardless of the song's origin, the singer must feel free to alter it, to make it his/her own.  Secondly, the song must ultimately be orally transmitted to a second generation of singers.Hence Dylan is NOT a folk singer (at least on his recorded repertoire).  And because Joan Baez's "Silkie" is frozen
by the very fact that since she recorded it, no one would THINK of changing that "official" version.Similarly, whatever the source of the great hymn tunes -- folk, composed, borrowed, blue -- the folks who sing them do not feel free to alter them.  In the minds of the singers, they must be preserved.  But not so with the black (and white) spirituals, many of which were lined out, allowing the leader to add verses as he wished.Now that will start a fight, sure.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2004 12:32 pm
Subject: Re: Two last comments on "Suggestions"> >On 6/1/04, John Garst wrote:
> >
> >>>Point #2 has to do with religious music. Is this really
> >>>folk music? One thing that has astonished me, in compiling
> >>>the Ballad Index, is that there is very little real
> >>>religious folk music, especially in the White tradition.
> >>>(Even in the Black tradition, much of what there is is
> >>>mixed up with freedom songs -- a related but
> >>>by-no-means-the-same genre.)
> >>>
> >>>At first I thought this was collectors' bias. But if one
> >>>looks at collections like Randolph's that don't have
> >>>collectors' bias, the point remains. Many of Randolph's
> >>>informants sang religious songs -- but they were clearly
> >>>straight out of hymn books. It may be "folk" music in the
> >>>sense that people are singing it, but it's really not
> >>>folk music in the sense that it's getting handed down
> >>>from generation to generation. If one is seeking religious
> >>>songs, one should take great care with this.
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Bob Waltz
> >>
> >>Well, I guess we have to go back, somehow, and retitle all of G. P.
> >>Jackson's books, especially "Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America."
> >>I don't think that any of his other titles contain "folk song"
> >>explicitly, but they all contain "spirituals," so I guess we further
> >>need to stop thinking of spirituals as folk songs.
> >
> >This is getting nasty,
>
> Sorry - it was intended as a gentle jibe illustrating that your
> definition of "folk" is not universally accepted.  I doubt that that
> comes as a surprise.
>
> >and I'm not sure why. I'm making an
> >observation, and I'm surprised by it -- but it stands. Most
> >of the material collected in Randolph and Brown (the collections
> >which are most open to religious material) shows the evidence
> >of written tradition. Many other collections show no religious
> >material at all. Now the collections no religious material must,
> >of course, be suspected of collector's bias. But where there is
> >religious material, it is hard to suspect bias.
> >
> >Nor do I see how Jackson changes that. I don't have all his
> >books, but the ones I have are not field collections. They are
> >the songs sung *in the churches* by the people he was studying.
> >How is that different from us singing along at a concert?
> >
> >A song may, I suppose, be a folk song if it is sung only
> >in a specific context (e.g. a work song). It certainly
> >may become a folk song despite being derived from print.
> >But if it is sung only in a specific context (churches
> >and camp meetings), and if in that context it refers
> >back to an official and authorized version, is it still a
> >folk song? I can only say that that seems an extreme
> >stretch to me.
> >
> >Nor does the use of secular tunes in religious music, and
> >vice versa, prove much. Think of how many hymns the Wobblies
> >appropriated! Indeed, the practice goes back at least to Luther,
> >and -- given what is found in ancient Bible manuscripts in the
> >way of tune indications -- I actually suspect that it goes back
> >to the ancient Orthodox church.
> >
> >If you can cite counter-evidence, then please cite it. I haven't
> >checked *every* field collection out there by any means! But
> >the test, ultimately, must be field collected religious songs
> >evidence of oral tradition.
> >--
> >Bob Waltz
>
> Jackson's books *do* contain *some* field-collected material,
> especially Another Sheaf of White Spirituals.  However, I think this
> beside the point.  Different people use different criteria for
> defining "folk."  Jackson himself, 'way back in the 1930-50s, when
> things were less "liberal" in this regard than they are now, had no
> problem at all with considering the materials he dealt with to be
> folk music.
>
> Personally, I agree with another poster.  Fasola singing and related
> genres are oral traditions supported by printed materials.  If you
> doubt the "oral tradition" component, just listen to field recordings
> and compare them, in style, with those of groups of trained, or even
> plain vanilla, singers performing the same materials.
>
> Preceding and parallel with the fasola tradition is one of
> camp-meeting songs/spirituals that were/are substantially orally
> transmitted.  In the fasola tradition, many of these same songs are
> arranged and published in 2, 3, or 4 vocal parts.  The two
> traditions, camp-meeting/revival and fasola, are different.
>
> McDowell's "Songs of the Old Camp Ground" contains a number of these
> songs from Tennessee oral tradition.  Texas folklore publications
> contain many more from that state.  19th-century books like The
> Revivalist (Joseph Hillman, 1868) contain many tune transcriptions
> from oral tradition, as do some late-19th century gospel song books.
> For example, "Wayfaring Stranger" and "Old Time Religion" are found
> in Charlie D. Tillman's The Revival (1891, if my memory is correct).
> The former was taken from the singing of the compiler's father and
> the latter from the singing of a black camp-meeting congregation in
> South Carolina.
>
> Until the mid 1980s, when they published their first denominational
> hymnal, members of the Church of God in Christ gloried in their
> purely oral tradition of church music.  The publication of the hymnal
> was opposed by many, but they lost out to "progress."  Consequently,
> today's COGIC music is nothing special.  Some of their old material
> was issued on 78 rpm phonograph records and some texts were taken
> from oral tradition and published in books/booklets.
>
> Oral tradition has rarely been the only component of the transmission
> of folk songs, especially since the invention of printing.  Plenty of
> transmission has occurred through print and, later, aural media.
>
> As I recall, Norm or Ed has a interesting definition of "folk" that
> he has posted here several times?  Maybe both do!
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dick:All I have said is that I believe a (note "a," not THE) definition of a folk song is one which the folk/people/populace feel is so much theirs that they can change it as they will; and a second generation agrees.In the preface to Muse II (and Muse I, for that matter), I define "generation" not in the demographers' thirty-three years, but in terms of the socio-economic class.  A "generation" of high school students is four years.  A "generation" of soft coal miners is seven years, what I am told is the average length of a worklife in the mines.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2004 4:24 pm
Subject: Re: Two last comments on "Suggestions"> Hi-
> Hymns DO sometimes get altered--folk-processed if you please. Check out
> the multitude of versions of Amazing Grace, for a prime example. Simple
> Gifts, at least according to Seigmeister, was based on the earlier
> "Confess Jehovah." And there's much more to religious music than
> hymns--gospels, spirituals, both of which have become extensively
> folk-processed. On t'other hand, modern slavish adherence to songvooks
> like "Rise Up Singing" are tending to stifle chamge in ALL sung
> material, secular or otherwise.
>      I've never accused either Baez nor Dylan as being a folk
> singer--Silkie (at least as Baez sings it) is to a tune composed by Dr.
> James Waters (copyright, I believe, held by Folk-Legacy.) It's certainly
> not the only tune the ballad is sung to. And Dylan, regardless of
> motives, certainly transmitted his altered traditional songs to a second
> generation of singers (many of whom don't sing them "right".
>
> dick greenhaus
>
> edward cray wrote:
>
> >John et al:
> >
> >I have stayed out of the what-is-folk/25 CD discussion as I have nothing
> to add but confusion.
> >
> >As to my personal definition of "folk music":  It rests on just two
> principles.  Regardless of the song's origin, the singer must feel free to
> alter it, to make it his/her own.  Secondly, the song must ultimately be
> orally transmitted to a second generation of singers.
> >
> >Hence Dylan is NOT a folk singer (at least on his recorded repertoire).
> And because Joan Baez's "Silkie" is frozen
> >by the very fact that since she recorded it, no one would THINK of
> changing that "official" version.
> >
> >Similarly, whatever the source of the great hymn tunes -- folk, composed,
> borrowed, blue -- the folks who sing them do not feel free to alter them.
> In the minds of the singers, they must be preserved.  But not so with the
> black (and white) spirituals, many of which were lined out, allowing the
> leader to add verses as he wished.
> >
> >Now that will start a fight, sure.
> >
> >Ed
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> >Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2004 12:32 pm
> >Subject: Re: Two last comments on "Suggestions"
> >
> >
> >
> >>>On 6/1/04, John Garst wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Point #2 has to do with religious music. Is this really
> >>>>>folk music? One thing that has astonished me, in compiling
> >>>>>the Ballad Index, is that there is very little real
> >>>>>religious folk music, especially in the White tradition.
> >>>>>(Even in the Black tradition, much of what there is is
> >>>>>mixed up with freedom songs -- a related but
> >>>>>by-no-means-the-same genre.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>At first I thought this was collectors' bias. But if one
> >>>>>looks at collections like Randolph's that don't have
> >>>>>collectors' bias, the point remains. Many of Randolph's
> >>>>>informants sang religious songs -- but they were clearly
> >>>>>straight out of hymn books. It may be "folk" music in the
> >>>>>sense that people are singing it, but it's really not
> >>>>>folk music in the sense that it's getting handed down
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>from generation to generation. If one is seeking religious
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>songs, one should take great care with this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>Bob Waltz
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>Well, I guess we have to go back, somehow, and retitle all of G. P.
> >>>>Jackson's books, especially "Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America."
> >>>>I don't think that any of his other titles contain "folk song"
> >>>>explicitly, but they all contain "spirituals," so I guess we further
> >>>>need to stop thinking of spirituals as folk songs.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>This is getting nasty,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Sorry - it was intended as a gentle jibe illustrating that your
> >>definition of "folk" is not universally accepted.  I doubt that that
> >>comes as a surprise.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>and I'm not sure why. I'm making an
> >>>observation, and I'm surprised by it -- but it stands. Most
> >>>of the material collected in Randolph and Brown (the collections
> >>>which are most open to religious material) shows the evidence
> >>>of written tradition. Many other collections show no religious
> >>>material at all. Now the collections no religious material must,
> >>>of course, be suspected of collector's bias. But where there is
> >>>religious material, it is hard to suspect bias.
> >>>
> >>>Nor do I see how Jackson changes that. I don't have all his
> >>>books, but the ones I have are not field collections. They are
> >>>the songs sung *in the churches* by the people he was studying.
> >>>How is that different from us singing along at a concert?
> >>>
> >>>A song may, I suppose, be a folk song if it is sung only
> >>>in a specific context (e.g. a work song). It certainly
> >>>may become a folk song despite being derived from print.
> >>>But if it is sung only in a specific context (churches
> >>>and camp meetings), and if in that context it refers
> >>>back to an official and authorized version, is it still a
> >>>folk song? I can only say that that seems an extreme
> >>>stretch to me.
> >>>
> >>>Nor does the use of secular tunes in religious music, and
> >>>vice versa, prove much. Think of how many hymns the Wobblies
> >>>appropriated! Indeed, the practice goes back at least to Luther,
> >>>and -- given what is found in ancient Bible manuscripts in the
> >>>way of tune indications -- I actually suspect that it goes back
> >>>to the ancient Orthodox church.
> >>>
> >>>If you can cite counter-evidence, then please cite it. I haven't
> >>>checked *every* field collection out there by any means! But
> >>>the test, ultimately, must be field collected religious songs
> >>>evidence of oral tradition.
> >>>--
> >>>Bob Waltz
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Jackson's books *do* contain *some* field-collected material,
> >>especially Another Sheaf of White Spirituals.  However, I think this
> >>beside the point.  Different people use different criteria for
> >>defining "folk."  Jackson himself, 'way back in the 1930-50s, when
> >>things were less "liberal" in this regard than they are now, had no
> >>problem at all with considering the materials he dealt with to be
> >>folk music.
> >>
> >>Personally, I agree with another poster.  Fasola singing and related
> >>genres are oral traditions supported by printed materials.  If you
> >>doubt the "oral tradition" component, just listen to field recordings
> >>and compare them, in style, with those of groups of trained, or even
> >>plain vanilla, singers performing the same materials.
> >>
> >>Preceding and parallel with the fasola tradition is one of
> >>camp-meeting songs/spirituals that were/are substantially orally
> >>transmitted.  In the fasola tradition, many of these same songs are
> >>arranged and published in 2, 3, or 4 vocal parts.  The two
> >>traditions, camp-meeting/revival and fasola, are different.
> >>
> >>McDowell's "Songs of the Old Camp Ground" contains a number of these
> >>songs from Tennessee oral tradition.  Texas folklore publications
> >>contain many more from that state.  19th-century books like The
> >>Revivalist (Joseph Hillman, 1868) contain many tune transcriptions
> >>from oral tradition, as do some late-19th century gospel song books.
> >>For example, "Wayfaring Stranger" and "Old Time Religion" are found
> >>in Charlie D. Tillman's The Revival (1891, if my memory is correct).
> >>The former was taken from the singing of the compiler's father and
> >>the latter from the singing of a black camp-meeting congregation in
> >>South Carolina.
> >>
> >>Until the mid 1980s, when they published their first denominational
> >>hymnal, members of the Church of God in Christ gloried in their
> >>purely oral tradition of church music.  The publication of the hymnal
> >>was opposed by many, but they lost out to "progress."  Consequently,
> >>today's COGIC music is nothing special.  Some of their old material
> >>was issued on 78 rpm phonograph records and some texts were taken
> >>from oral tradition and published in books/booklets.
> >>
> >>Oral tradition has rarely been the only component of the transmission
> >>of folk songs, especially since the invention of printing.  Plenty of
> >>transmission has occurred through print and, later, aural media.
> >>
> >>As I recall, Norm or Ed has a interesting definition of "folk" that
> >>he has posted here several times?  Maybe both do!
> >>
> >>--
> >>john garst    [unmask]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Right you are, Dick, especially considering that it
derives from a setting by Sankey of an English poem.
Check it out on the "cyber hymnal" web site.
     Sandy--- vze29j8v <[unmask]> wrote:
> I more or less agree with the definition (though I'm
> not sure that the
> change is as much a question of perceived ownership
> as one of poor
> memory; or an attempt to make more sense, whether in
> tune or words ; or
> making it fit into the singer's vocal range and/or
> instrumental
> technique. )How's that for a run-on parenthesis?
>
> I guess I really disagreeing with Bob, and not you.
> A nice example of
> change/development in religious music is in the
> Bahamian "I bid you good
> night"--it comes out differently in just about every
> field recording made.
>
> dick
>
> edward cray wrote:
>
> >Dick:
> >
> >All I have said is that I believe a (note "a," not
> THE) definition of a folk song is one which the
> folk/people/populace feel is so much theirs that
> they can change it as they will; and a second
> generation agrees.
> >
> >In the preface to Muse II (and Muse I, for that
> matter), I define "generation" not in the
> demographers' thirty-three years, but in terms of
> the socio-economic class.  A "generation" of high
> school students is four years.  A "generation" of
> soft coal miners is seven years, what I am told is
> the average length of a worklife in the mines.
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> >Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2004 4:24 pm
> >Subject: Re: Two last comments on "Suggestions"
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi-
> >>Hymns DO sometimes get altered--folk-processed if
> you please. Check out
> >>the multitude of versions of Amazing Grace, for a
> prime example. Simple
> >>Gifts, at least according to Seigmeister, was
> based on the earlier
> >>"Confess Jehovah." And there's much more to
> religious music than
> >>hymns--gospels, spirituals, both of which have
> become extensively
> >>folk-processed. On t'other hand, modern slavish
> adherence to songvooks
> >>like "Rise Up Singing" are tending to stifle
> chamge in ALL sung
> >>material, secular or otherwise.
> >>     I've never accused either Baez nor Dylan as
> being a folk
> >>singer--Silkie (at least as Baez sings it) is to a
> tune composed by Dr.
> >>James Waters (copyright, I believe, held by
> Folk-Legacy.) It's certainly
> >>not the only tune the ballad is sung to. And
> Dylan, regardless of
> >>motives, certainly transmitted his altered
> traditional songs to a second
> >>generation of singers (many of whom don't sing
> them "right".
> >>
> >>dick greenhaus
> >>
> >>edward cray wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>John et al:
> >>>
> >>>I have stayed out of the what-is-folk/25 CD
> discussion as I have nothing
> >>>
> >>>
> >>to add but confusion.
> >>
> >>
> >>>As to my personal definition of "folk music":  It
> rests on just two
> >>>
> >>>
> >>principles.  Regardless of the song's origin, the
> singer must feel free to
> >>alter it, to make it his/her own.  Secondly, the
> song must ultimately be
> >>orally transmitted to a second generation of
> singers.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hence Dylan is NOT a folk singer (at least on his
> recorded repertoire).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>And because Joan Baez's "Silkie" is frozen
> >>
> >>
> >>>by the very fact that since she recorded it, no
> one would THINK of
> >>>
> >>>
> >>changing that "official" version.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Similarly, whatever the source of the great hymn
> tunes -- folk, composed,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>borrowed, blue -- the folks who sing them do not
> feel free to alter them.
> >>In the minds of the singers, they must be
> preserved.  But not so with the
> >>black (and white) spirituals, many of which were
> lined out, allowing the
> >>leader to add verses as he wished.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Now that will start a fight, sure.
> >>>
> >>>Ed
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> >>>Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2004 12:32 pm
> >>>Subject: Re: Two last comments on "Suggestions"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>On 6/1/04, John Garst wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>Point #2 has to do with religious music. Is
> this really
> >>>>>>>folk music? One thing that has astonished me,
> in compiling
> >>>>>>>the Ballad Index, is that there is very
> little real
> >>>>>>>religious folk music, especially in the White
> tradition.
> >>>>>>>(Even in the Black tradition, much of what
> there is is
> >>>>>>>mixed up with freedom songs -- a related but
> >>>>>>>by-no-means-the-same genre.)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>At first I thought this was collectors' bias.
> But if one
> >>>>>>>looks at collections like Randolph's that
> don't have
> >>>>>>>collectors' bias, the point remains. Many of
> Randolph's
> >>>>>>>informants sang religious songs -- but they
> were clearly
> >>>>>>>straight out of hymn books. It may be "folk"
> music in the
> >>>>>>>sense that people are singing it, but it's
> really not
> >>>>>>>folk music in the sense that it's getting
> handed down
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>from generation to generation. If one is
> seeking religious
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>songs, one should take great care with this.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>Bob Waltz
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>Well, I guess we have to go back, somehow, and
> retitle all of G. P.
> >>>>>>Jackson's books, especially "Spiritual
> Folk-Songs of Early America."
> >>>>>>I don't think that any of his other titles
> contain "folk song"
> >>>>>>explicitly, but they all contain "spirituals,"
> so I guess we further
> >>>>>>need to stop thinking of spirituals as folk
> songs.
>
=== message truncated ===

----- Original Message -----
From: "vze29j8v" <[unmask]><<I guess I really disagreeing with Bob, and not you. A nice example of
change/development in religious music is in the Bahamian "I bid you good
night"--it comes out differently in just about every field recording made.>>Including those outside the Bahamas, like the Yorkshire "Sleep On Beloved"
and the Virginia version, the title of which I forget.Peace,
Paul

On 6/3/04, vze29j8v wrote:>I more or less agree with the definition (though I'm not sure that the change is as much a question of perceived ownership as one of poor memory; or an attempt to make more sense, whether in tune or words ; or making it fit into the singer's vocal range and/or instrumental technique. )How's that for a run-on parenthesis?
>
>I guess I really disagreeing with Bob, and not you. A nice example of change/development in religious music is in the Bahamian "I bid you good night"--it comes out differently in just about every field recording made.But, for the record, I agree entirely with Ed. My observation is that
most of the religious songs in the books do *not* meet his criteria.
There are exceptions (I don't recall anyone mentioning "Wondrous Love,"
but it is the best example I can think of. "Amazing Grace" has been
recorded a zillion times, but is relatively rare in the regional
collections), but they are relatively few, especially in the
white tradition. Note that I specifically exempted spirituals.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:08:03 -0700, edward cray wrote:>Similarly, whatever the source of the great hymn tunes -- folk, composed, borrowed, blue -- the folks who sing them do not feel free to alter them.  In the minds of the singers, they must be preserved.  But not so with the black (and white) spirituals, many of which were lined out, allowing the leader to add verses as he wished.For some freedom of rendition, see Lomax's Southern Folk Heritage Series,
_White Spirituals_, Atlantic, (1960?).  I don't know if it's recut to a
Rounder CD yet.Which leads to another grey area...there's a huge element of religious-
oriented music in the Bluegrass repertoire.  This stuff changes with each
"cover" of the song.  I guess that's more Pop than folk but so much of it
is learned aurally & changed that....-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Commentary from Research Buzz:** Library of Scotland Offers Broadsides From 17th to the 20th CenturyThe Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a collection of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The exhibit, called "The Word On the Street" is available now at http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .This is truly nifty; you may search by keyword or browse by subject, from Accidents to Weavers. I chose the "Marvels" category, which has seven entries. The entries are listed with a hyperlinked headline and a summary of the article ("This supernatural report begins: 'Wonder of Wonders, or the Speech of a child born near Edinburgh on
Thursday the 15th of March 1770 as delivered ten minutes after it came into the world.'")Clicking on the headline brings you commentary on the item  (apparently talking, prophesying babies were very popular in  broadsides) an image reproduction of the item, and in many  cases the opportunity to both read a transcript and download a PDF facsimile of the item. A keyword search for "cooper" found twelve results laid out
like the category  listings.In addition to this huge amount of content, there's also  background on broadsides,
information on illustrations,  and information on additional resources. Great, a huge  time sink.

Wow!I went there, took a quick look at "Browse Subjects," spotted freemasonry,
and immediately came upon a broadside of "We are the true-born sons of
Levi," which is widespread in American, as well as British, tradition.
There is some sensible commentary on it as well.Interestingly, with respect to ongoing discussion here, this is treated as
a hymn by the Old Regular Baptists of Kentucky.Despite its being printed as a broadside, in Old Regular Baptist hymnals,
and no doubt in many other places, it has been transmitted/recovered with
considerable textual variation.As a 9898 hymn, it interests me as a relative of "Wayfaring Stranger,"
"Man of Constant Sorrow," etc.  It is said, though I've not heard it sung
thus, that "True-Born Sons of Levi" has been sung in the southern
mountains to the "Wayfaring Stranger" tune, or perhaps to the
"Fulfillment" (Sacred Harp) variant of that tune.John> Commentary from Research Buzz:
>
> ** Library of Scotland Offers Broadsides From 17th to the 20th Century
>
> The Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a collection
> of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The exhibit, called
> "The Word On the Street" is available now at
> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .
>
> This is truly nifty; you may search by keyword or browse by subject,
> from Accidents to Weavers. I chose the "Marvels" category, which has
> seven entries. The entries are listed with a hyperlinked headline and a
> summary of the article ("This supernatural report begins: 'Wonder of
> Wonders, or the Speech of a child born near Edinburgh on Thursday the
> 15th of March 1770 as delivered ten minutes after it came into the
> world.'")
>
> Clicking on the headline brings you commentary on the item  (apparently
> talking, prophesying babies were very popular in  broadsides) an image
> reproduction of the item, and in many  cases the opportunity to both
> read a transcript and download a PDF facsimile of the item. A keyword
> search for "cooper" found twelve results laid out like the category
> listings.
>
> In addition to this huge amount of content, there's also  background on
> broadsides, information on illustrations,  and information on additional
> resources. Great, a huge  time sink.John Garst

Ballad-Listers might be interested in a new book by Shirley Collins -
America Over the Water, published by SAF Publishing ISBN 0 946719 66 7, 2004, Hbk £20
www.safpublishing.com
Shirley has been a well-known singer on the Britifh folk scene for decades, with many influential recordings to her name. This book is half about her own life in general, but the other half of it describes her experiences as partner and assistant to Alan Lomax on his famous collecting trip across the South in 1959.
Steve RoudSignup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

On 6/3/04, John Garst wrote:>Wow!
>
>I went there, took a quick look at "Browse Subjects," spotted freemasonry,
>and immediately came upon a broadside of "We are the true-born sons of
>Levi," which is widespread in American, as well as British, tradition.
>There is some sensible commentary on it as well.And Ord had a version in Scotland, and Sam Henry in Ulster. Which is
perhaps "British" tradition, but I'm not sure the local residents would
be too happy with the description. :-)>Interestingly, with respect to ongoing discussion here, this is treated as
>a hymn by the Old Regular Baptists of Kentucky.
>
>Despite its being printed as a broadside, in Old Regular Baptist hymnals,
>and no doubt in many other places, it has been transmitted/recovered with
>considerable textual variation.*This* interests me, because it is, I concede, counter-evidence
to my thesis. Do any of those hymnals indicate where they think
it came from? Picking up a Masonic piece seems very unlikely
for Baptists.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

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<<Why doesn't Someone put together a book of non-religious but ethically OK
songs for use in American schools???>>Cuz nobody agrees what's ethically OK. What is meant by "Thou shalt not
kill"? Pacifism? Just war? Capital punishment? Euthanasia? Does "Thou shalt
not steal" mean the burglar, the beggar who steals bread, or the banker?
Find something that everyone can agree on, and it'll be so insipid that even
Barney will barf.And also cuz as soon as somebody puts non-religious ethical material into
the schools, certain religious factions immediately cry "secular humanism"
or "satanism" or "moral relativism" and have it yanked.<<(who became an American citizen last year in order to have a vote. Guess
why.
:-)>>Brava!Peace,
Paul

> The Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a collection
> of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The exhibit, called
> "The Word On the Street" is available now at
> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .So ... for obvious reasons I searched "rising sun."Seehttp://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/15799/criteria/rising%20sunThis turns up an item called "Trade's Release."  Here is the next-to-last
verse.Tho' Calumny, Malice, and Envy combine,
To strike at the Root of this noble Design,
Yet bravely to push it, well never decline,
in spite of all Banter or Bully:
Come the Work is near ended that well is begun,
Here's a Cup of Success to the RISING-SUN,
If any refuse it all over the Town,
May he soundly be kick'd for a Cully.I have no idea what "Here's a Cup of Success to the RISING-SUN" means, or
why all caps is used.This "ballad" is encouragement to the "Scotch-Indian Company," to the tune
of "The Turks are all Confounded."John Garst

>> The Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a
>> collection of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The
>> exhibit, called "The Word On the Street" is available now at
>> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .A search for "poet's box" returns 187 hits.John Garst

>http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/15799/criteria/rising%20sun>    Here's a Cup of Success to the RISING-SUN,
>    If any refuse it all over the Town,
>    May he soundly be kick'd for a Cully.
>
> I have no idea what "Here's a Cup of Success to the RISING-SUN" means,
> or why all caps is used.
>
> This "ballad" is encouragement to the "Scotch-Indian Company," to the
> tune of "The Turks are all Confounded."At a guess, "drink a toast to the corporate symbol of the Darien company".
All caps because it's an implicit proper name of an institution.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

>>> The Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a
>>> collection of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The
>>> exhibit, called "The Word On the Street" is available now at
>>> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/14773/transcript/1Wow!  This has American echoes a-plenty.  Did this come to America and
provide a template for American mimics?  Or was it the other way around?
Are there earlier instances than this 1849 item?THE
AMERICAN
STRANGER.I am a poor stranger, from America I came,
There's no one does know me, nor can tell me
        my name,
I am a poor stranger, I'll tarry a while,
I have rambled for my darling for many a long
        mile.Some say I am rakish, some say I am wild,
Some say I am guilty, fair maids to beguile,
But I will make them all liars, if you go with
        me,
And I will take you to America, my darling to
        be.Give my love to my Polly, she's the girl [I]
        adore,
Likewiso to my Susan, although she is poor,eart's
        delight,
And I will clasp her in my arms in a cold
        winter night.The moon shall be in darkness, the stars shall
        give no light,
If ever I prove false to my own heart's delight,
In the middle of the ocean there will grow a
        plum tree,
If ever I prove false to the girl that loves me.She's bound for America, our ship's fit for sea,
Crying, Heavens protect us with a prosperous
        gale,
And when we are landed, we will dance and
        we will sing,
In a plentiful country, so God save the Queen.M'Intosh, Printer,   96 King St. Calton106John Garst

>>>> The Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a
>>>> collection of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The
>>>> exhibit, called "The Word On the Street" is available now at
>>>> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/16413/transcript/1I'd heard of the "wang-doodle sermon" before but never seen a full copy.John Garst

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 04 June 2004 19:11
Subject: Re: Broadsides: Stranger> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/14773/transcript/1
>
> Wow!  This has American echoes a-plenty.  Did this come to America and
> provide a template for American mimics?  Or was it the other way around?
> Are there earlier instances than this 1849 item?The Bodleian has a number of editions from various printers. Dates they give show that it was in
print at least by 1820 (Liverpool); maybe earlier. Chappell (PMOT, 1859, II, 739) quotes one verse
and tune, "contributed by Mr Charles Sloman", under the title "The Moon Shall be in Darkness" and
described as "another well-known street ditty". I think that would be Sloman the songwriter and
music hall performer.The song seems to have been fairly well-known in England and Scotland, and Roud lists a good few
examples from oral currency and broadsides. Ord (Bothy Songs and Ballads, 1930, 127-8) considered
(from internal details in his -variant- text) that a pre-American War of Independence date was
likely; but I don't know that his argument is particularly compelling, at any rate on the stated
grounds. Earlier editions had "God save the King", of course. There are probably more details in
Greig-Duncan, but I don't have the relevant volume.The Traditional Ballad Index ("When First Into this Country") mentions "The Irish Stranger" as an
alternative title, but I confess I don't see any connection. Perhaps it derives from a comment in
Huntington (Songs the Whalemen Sang, 197) which I think may perhaps have been a mistake.Malcolm Douglas

Nothng on Fawkes or gunpowder treason....or on wassail....but the web page
is wonderful. The graphics are amazing....If only I could search something
up!ConradJohn Garst wrote:
>
> >>>> The Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a
> >>>> collection of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The
> >>>> exhibit, called "The Word On the Street" is available now at
> >>>> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .
>
> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/16413/transcript/1
>
> I'd heard of the "wang-doodle sermon" before but never seen a full copy.
>
> John Garst--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

>>>> The Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a
>>>> collection of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The
>>>> exhibit, called "The Word On the Street" is available now at
>>>> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .I just came across this Scottish broadside from ca 1855:http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/14822/transcript/1Death dialogs go 'way back.  In 20th-century America two show up commonly,
one recovered mostly from blacks under the titles "Oh, Death" and several
others.  The other, "Conversation with Death," is recovered mostly from
whites.  In its pure form "Conversation" has no chorus, while "Oh, Death"
has a chorus that runs something likeOh, Death!
Oh, Death!
Oh, Death!
Spare me over another year!For several years now Carl Lindahl has been trying to establish, or
disestablish, that North Carolina mountain preacher and ballad singer
Lloyd Chandler wrote "Conversation," in 1916, according to his account.
Part of that effort has been to search for antecedants in Britain.  It is
my understanding that none of the many broadsides, collected examples,
etc., that he has examined replicate Chandler's language.  Most don't
duplicate the language of "Oh, Death" either."Dialog Between Death and a Sinner," ca 1855, link given above, appears to
be an exception.   I have brought it to Carl's attention, and he notes
that on cursory examination it has 2 or 3 lines/phrases in common with
"Conversation" and at least 6 in common with "Oh, Death."  To me, it seems
to be the direct precursor of "Oh, Death," which is a highly distilled
version.  As far as I know, this is the first notice of such a direct
precursor of "Oh, Death."Since some on this list seem to have encyclopedic knowledge of broadsides,
or access to extensive databases, perhaps someone could track or provide
further information on "Dialog Between Death and a Sinner" and closely
related items, if there are any.Thanks.John Garst

> Death dialogs go 'way back.  In 20th-century America two show up
> commonly, one recovered mostly from blacks under the titles "Oh, Death"
> and several others.  The other, "Conversation with Death," is recovered
> mostly from whites.  In its pure form "Conversation" has no chorus,
> while "Oh, Death" has a chorus that runs something like
>
> Oh, Death!
> Oh, Death!
> Oh, Death!
> Spare me over another year!
>
> For several years now Carl Lindahl has been trying to establish, or
> disestablish, that North Carolina mountain preacher and ballad singer
> Lloyd Chandler wrote "Conversation," in 1916, according to his account.I should add that since about 1950 or so, many recordings/recoveries mix
the two versions.  Thus, Ralph Stanley's "Oh, Death" is a mixture of the
two.John Garst

>>>>> The Library of Scotland has a new online exhibit available, a
>>>>> collection of  almost 1800 broadsides dating from 1650 to 1910. The
>>>>> exhibit, called "The Word On the Street" is available now at
>>>>> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/index.html .
>
> http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/16413/transcript/1
>
> I'd heard of the "wang-doodle sermon" before but never seen a full copy.I guess I'd never looked on the WWW for it before.  You get a hit athttp://www.geocities.com/lilandr/uslit/angle/Brannan1.htmwhere this piece is attributed to William Penn Brennan/Brannan."William Penn Brannan (1825-1866) was an Ohio portrait painter and
newspaper writer."John Garst

"William Penn Brannan (1825-1866), author of widely popular burlesque
sermons, was an itinerant artist and writer for newspapers, who used the
pseudonyms 'Bill Easel' and 'Vandyke Brown.' He was born in Cincinnati and
painted portraits there in the 1840's, exhibited at the National Academy
of Design in 1847, was an engraver in Chicago, and worked in river towns
down the Mississippi to New Orleans. He was an associate editor of the
Cincinnati Daily Union in 1865 but moved to New York where he published a
volume of verse, Vagaries of Vandyke Brown, the same year."John Garst

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 05 June 2004 14:10
Subject: Re: Broadsides: Death Dialog>>I just came across this Scottish broadside from ca 1855:>>http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/broadside.cfm/id/14822/transcript/1> > Death dialogs go 'way back.  In 20th-century America two show up
> > commonly, one recovered mostly from blacks under the titles "Oh, Death"
> > and several others.  The other, "Conversation with Death," is recovered
> > mostly from whites.  In its pure form "Conversation" has no chorus,
> > while "Oh, Death" has a chorus that runs something like> > Oh, Death!
> > Oh, Death!
> > Oh, Death!
> > Spare me over another year!> > For several years now Carl Lindahl has been trying to establish, or
> > disestablish, that North Carolina mountain preacher and ballad singer
> > Lloyd Chandler wrote "Conversation," in 1916, according to his account.> >"Dialog Between Death and a Sinner," ca 1855, link given above, appears to
> >be an exception .... perhaps someone could track or provide further information
> >on "Dialog Between Death and a Sinner" and closely related items, if there are any..There are three English editions of the same period at the Bodleian Collection: from Ryle and Fortey
of London, and from Harkness of Preston. The Harkness edition has the same explicatory text as the
Glasgow set, of which there is another copy to be seen at the Murray Collection (Glasgow) website.
Note that the Scottish sheet omits "I" in the first line, while Harkness does not; there may
possibly be conclusions to be drawn from that. The London examples are slightly variant.Malcolm Douglas

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                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

> Well, if you wish to discuss anthologies, I think you must include Topic's masterful 20-CD set of "Voice of the People"; the gospel set "Goodbye Babylon" and the 1-CD wonder "Treasury of LOC field recordings." If you consider that nobody's apt to choose a recording of a single artist that s/he hasn't previously encountered, dismissing anthologies sort of dooms the listeners to whatever passes as "folk's top 40"dick greenhaus> From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
> Date: 2004/05/31 Mon PM 12:37:10 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Two last comments on "Suggestions"
>
> I've long been of the opinion that folks who love music are absolutely
> the last people you want to select recordings for the general public.
> Passion and personal bias cloud the mind from the reality that most of
> the "folk" don't really care [sigh].
>
> In spite of my support for anthologies / collections in the course of
> this discussion they are usually among the first items to go when I need
> to clear my shelves. The small number which do remain usually are more
> than mere excuses to issue "product," they  create their own view point,
> perspective or improved understanding of a genre or style. It's not just
> what they contain but how it's presented. The Smith Anthology is one
> example, Allen Lowe's "American Pop: From Minstrel to Mojo" another.
> Neither, arguably, contains the "best" work of any performer but the
> whole is truly greater than the sum of the parts.
>
> Given the small number of CDs under discussion I think one can find 25
> anthologies which do transcend and illuminate. We can only hope that one
> selection from one disc will lead another listener to the same passion
> we share.
>
>
>
> Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> >On 5/31/04, Paul Garon wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>>But one more point on anthologies: We have to consider our
> >>>listeners, too. How many of *you* prefer to put on an anthology
> >>>recording to one comprised entirely of the works of one
> >>>performer? When I'm in the mood for (pulling a name from
> >>>the air) Ewan MacColl, I *don't* want to get Ewan MacColl,
> >>>then Martin Carthy, then Jean Redpath, then back to MacColl,
> >>>then the Watersons, then Steeleye Span....
> >>>
> >>>
> >>This is a bit circular, no?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Circular, no. A circular argument is one which presumes itself.
> >I'm not presuming anything. I will allow that I'm stating a
> >taste -- seeing the trend of this discussion, I realize that
> >I just don't *like* anthologies. And this comes out in my
> >choices.
> >
> >I don't know about the rest of the world. How many like
> >anthologies, as opposed to works by single performers?
> >I do think this is something that should be taken into
> >account in choosing albums. I would observe, though, that
> >even in the "historical" department at the local folk
> >music store, the vast majority of the albums are
> >of single performers. There are theme anthologies (mostly
> >from County, on the Old-Time side; there isn't much at
> >all in the British Isles section), but they are few. That
> >seems to indicate that, for once, I'm *not* in a minority
> >(horrors).
> >
> >Anthologies are a good way to find out about performers --
> >I discovered Buell Kazee through an anthology collection.
> >But I'm not convinced that they're a good way to learn about
> >a particular musical form.
> >
> >Again, how do others feel?
> >--
> >Bob Waltz
> >[unmask]
> >
> >"The one thing we learn from history --
> >   is that no one ever learns from history."
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Hi,Malcolm,
Ord's is certainly the longest British version, but could it be a
collation of several versions. Grieg/Duncan has 12 shorter versions some
with extra stanzas on Ord's. A ballad printed both by Robertson, Glasgow,
(The Banks of a River)1802, and by Angus, Newcastle, (The Banks of the
River)c1800, both in Univ, Newc. Lib. of 8 stanzas, has Ord's 5th, 1st,
4th and 7th stanza as its stanzas 4-7. Ord's 5th and 6th stanzas are of
course commonplaces found in several different ballads such as Charming
Polly, Gra Geal Mo Chroi, and they form part of a whole collection of
marvels stanzas which go back into the seeds of antiquity. For instance
these two are specifically found in  'True Love Rewarded with Loyalty'
c1673 -86, Douce 2 (224a)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 06 June 2004 20:29
Subject: Broadsides: Stranger> Ord's is certainly the longest British version, but could it be a
> collation of several versions. Grieg/Duncan has 12 shorter versions some
> with extra stanzas on Ord's. A ballad printed both by Robertson, Glasgow,
> (The Banks of a River)1802, and by Angus, Newcastle, (The Banks of the
> River)c1800, both in Univ, Newc. Lib. of 8 stanzas, has Ord's 5th, 1st,
> 4th and 7th stanza as its stanzas 4-7. Ord's 5th and 6th stanzas are of
> course commonplaces found in several different ballads such as Charming
> Polly, Gra Geal Mo Chroi, and they form part of a whole collection of
> marvels stanzas which go back into the seeds of antiquity. For instance
> these two are specifically found in  'True Love Rewarded with Loyalty'
> c1673 -86, Douce 2 (224a)Thanks for those references. It's particularly interesting that the "stranger"  in "The Banks of the
River" (Bodleian, Harding B 20(25)) is not from America but from Yarmouth (a strange enough place in
its own right, in my experience!) and is headed for Jamaica. Also on that sheet is John Collins'
"Chapter of Kings", which I gather was first printed in 1818, so it would be a little later than the
examples you mention; assuming they actually belong together. Where is the stranger from in the
Newcastle and Glasgow examples? I haven't seen those.Malcolm

For comparison, here's the text from Dalhart's recording "Conversation with
Death (By a Blind Girl" recorded 24 Sept 1928.  The first stanza, makng the
dying girl blind, must have been someone's idea of making her more pathetic.
Does it occur in any other analogs?   I thank Jack Palmer for sending me a
cassette dub of the78.
NormA poor girl lay on her bed one night,
A girl who in childhood had lost her sight;
When Death spoke to her in words so low,
Of a life that she was so soon to know."What is this that I can't see
With icy hands taken hold on me;
If you be Death and this be true
Please give me time to reckon with you.""I am Death, none can excel,
I open the doors of heaven and hell;"
"My wealth is all at your command,
If you will move your icy hand.""You heard your people sing and pray,
But you did not take heed, you walked away;
You wouldn't give your hand or bend your knee,
Now you must come and go with me."CHO:
"Death, oh Death, how can this be
That I must come and go with thee;
Death, oh, Death how can this be
When I'm unprepared for eternity.""Oh death, how you are treating me,
You're closing me eyes so I can't see;
Your stretching my limbs you're making me cold,
You're robbing my body of its soul.Too late, too late, to all farewell,
My doom is fixed, I'm sentenced to hell;
As long as God in heaven shall dwell
My soul, my soul, shall rest in hell.CHO:  Death Oh Death....

Yes both give Yarmouth / Jamaica.
SteveG

On 2004/06/07 at 10:57:15AM -0700, Norm Cohen wrote:> For comparison, here's the text from Dalhart's recording "Conversation with
> Death (By a Blind Girl" recorded 24 Sept 1928.  The first stanza, makng the
> dying girl blind, must have been someone's idea of making her more pathetic.        And it conflicts with another line below:> A girl who in childhood had lost her sight;        [ ... ]> You're closing me eyes so I can't see;        I wonder how many singers (or listeners) noticed that and
commented on it?        Enjoy
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I wonder if it's possible that the reference in Huntington (Songs the Whalemen Sang; thence perhaps
Traditional Ballad Index?) may have been meant for "The Sporting Youth" (Roud 3016; O Lochlainn,
Irish Street Ballads, 94-5, "learnt from Dublin ballad singers") rather than "The Irish Stranger"
which as found under that title is always (so far as I can tell) a completely different song."Sporting Youth" (Lochlainn) begins "I'm a stranger to this country, from America I came", and
is -textually- essentially the same song as "American Stranger"/"Plains of America". The Bodleian
collection has "America" in most examples of "Sporting Youth", but also "Ireland"."The Banks of the River " (with Yarmouth instead of America or Ireland) is a nice addition; thanks
to Steve for pointing it out. On the face of it, it appears to be earlier.Malcolm Douglas

I am reminded of "The Flyting of Life and Death". Not
sure if the song is contemporary or older. I'll look
for the CD.CA"Subject: Re: Broadsides: Death DialogDoes it occur in any other analogs?"

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 14:29:01 -0500, Steve Gardham wrote:>(The Banks of a River)1802This is very good. It drops the earliest date back nearly 100 years and
justifies the long-held belief of its pre-American Revolution origins.
This is no surprise considering how wide-spread it was by 1906 and the
frequent "serving of the king (queen)" lines.  Greig notes the tune seems
to vary much less than the text.It is a good tune and always seemed an appropriate song for me to sing
when I lived in Edinburgh.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

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In many versions of "John Henry," his wife/woman is "Polly Ann."  One
historical candidate, Henry Dabney, of Copiah County, Mississippi,
married Margaret Foston late in 1869.  I have earlier detailed a
plausible pathway of mutations leading from "Maggie D" (Margaret
Dabney) to "Polly Ann."  Some of the intermediates have been
recovered in tradition ("Maggadee," "Mary Magdalene").  A Jamaican
"John Henry" had a woman "Marga."I regard "Polly Ann" as an unlikely historical name because I think
likely to be a stable, commonplace endpoint of mutations.  It is
familiar, it scans well, and it suits the rhyme scheme commonly found
("Ann" with "man").That's my question: How commonplace is "Polly Ann"?A brief WWW search turned up a minstrel tune from 1864, "My Polly
Ann," a fiddle tune, "Pretty Polly Ann," and apparently a story by
Artimus Ward, "The Cruise of the 'Polly Ann.'"  These findings, I
think, support the "commonplace" idea.What do you think?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>  From [unmask]  Tue Jun  8 13:51:50 2004
>  Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:09:42 EDT
>  From: Heather Wood <[unmask]>
>  Subject: Re: Broadsides: Death Dialog
>  To: [unmask]>  Kids' versions abound:You know the pinochle verse!  You know the pinochle verse!
Do they play pinochle on your snout or your spout in your version?They also "crawl in skinny & crawl out stout"A verse I really love goes:So say goodby to the world you love
And say hello to the stars above

Hi-
For what it's worth, a Digital Tradition search for Polly Ann provides
two hits (out of over 9500 sets of lyrics.)
dick greenhausJohn Garst wrote:> In many versions of "John Henry," his wife/woman is "Polly Ann."  One
> historical candidate, Henry Dabney, of Copiah County, Mississippi,
> married Margaret Foston late in 1869.  I have earlier detailed a
> plausible pathway of mutations leading from "Maggie D" (Margaret
> Dabney) to "Polly Ann."  Some of the intermediates have been
> recovered in tradition ("Maggadee," "Mary Magdalene").  A Jamaican
> "John Henry" had a woman "Marga."
>
> I regard "Polly Ann" as an unlikely historical name because I think
> likely to be a stable, commonplace endpoint of mutations.  It is
> familiar, it scans well, and it suits the rhyme scheme commonly found
> ("Ann" with "man").
>
> That's my question: How commonplace is "Polly Ann"?
>
> A brief WWW search turned up a minstrel tune from 1864, "My Polly
> Ann," a fiddle tune, "Pretty Polly Ann," and apparently a story by
> Artimus Ward, "The Cruise of the 'Polly Ann.'"  These findings, I
> think, support the "commonplace" idea.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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"Oh, the big cat spit in the little kitten's eye
Little cat, little cat don't you cry
I do love liquor and we'll all take a dram
I'm gonna tell you, pretty Polly Ann."Peace,
Paul

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Paul:This this a fiddle tune nmemonic?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, June 8, 2004 2:35 pm
Subject: Re: "Polly Ann" commonplace?> "Oh, the big cat spit in the little kitten's eye
> Little cat, little cat don't you cry
> I do love liquor and we'll all take a dram
> I'm gonna tell you, pretty Polly Ann."
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

My version learned in childhood:(Oh) Don't you laugh when the hearse goes by
For you might be the next to dieThe worms crawl in, the worms crawl out
The worms play pinochle on your snoutAugmented version, with words learned elsewhere:(Oh) Don't you laugh when the hearse goes by
For you might be the next to dieThey wrap you up in a big white sheet
And lower you down about 6 feet deepIt all goes well for about a week
Until your casket begins to leakThe worms crawl in, the worms crawl out
The worms play pinochle on your snoutThe worms crawl in, the worms crawl out
In your stomach & out your spoutThe worms crawl in, the worms crawl out
They crawl in skinny & crawl out stoutSo say goodbye to the earth you love
And say hello to the stars above