On 2004/05/20 at 09:42:31PM +0100, Dave Eyre wrote:> >         The books on Ebay are as numerous as the 17 year cicadas in our
> > yard.
>
> I never realised the significance of Dolores's  remark until this morning
> when BBC Radio 4 Today programme told the story of how the cicadas (in view
> of other discussions - sickades?  - sickardes? - sicaydes?) invade the east
> coast states  every year and down to Georgia (they said).        While there are *some* cicadas every year, these are a special
batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only come up at the
end of that time.        There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not show up in as
spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting that both periods
are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the same time only
once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a total
overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.> How goes it so far?
>
> Can we train them to chirrup in tune?        They do -- to the extent that it is a continuous wall of sound.
You are forced to sing (outdoors) adjusted to the cicadas as a continuo.        For those who have not seen these, and who don't want to cross
the Atlantic in the next month to see them, I've photographed some, and
your unfamiliarity with them has prompted me to build a simple web page
around them.  The URL is:        http://www2.d-and-d.com/misc/CICADAS-2004/index.htmlIt is only on my secondary web server -- the one in training to replace
the original server -- hence the '2' after the "www".        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Next she'll be telling us the legend of Lucas: The Prince of Darkness
(for them what has owned a British car)edward cray wrote:>Dave:
>
>No, no, no, no.  Heather IS the car dealer.  I am me.
>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]>
>Date: Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:01 am
>Subject: Re: The riddle in Driharin O Mo Croi: grammar
>
>
>
>>What's this about you and a car dealer then Heather?
>>
>>I think we should be told.
>>
>>Dave
>>www.collectorsfolk.co.uk
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Heather Wood
>> To: [unmask]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: The riddle in Driharin O Mo Croi: grammar
>>
>>
>> oops. I was wrong (this happens)
>>
>> obviously been here too long.
>>
>> Yes, one should use the accusative case of the first person singular,
>>since it is the object.
>>
>> But I was always taught that it is good manners to put oneself last, so
>>"the car dealer and me."
>>
>> Heather
>>
>>
>
>
>

Simon:Actually, Heather and I had worked out a deal to meet halfway.  (Which would be an even-Steven trade, no?  Except "halfway" is sometnhing like Salina, Kansas, and NO automobile is worth visiting there.)Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:56 pm
Subject: Re: The riddle in Driharin O Mo Croi: grammar> Ed said:
> >
> > No, no, no, no.  Heather IS the car dealer.  I am me.
> >
>
> That explains everything. Going back to the original point of diminishing
> value, I'm not surprised that the car she sells you is worth less, since she
> clearly has to drive coast-to-coast to deliver it. At least it ought to be
> quicker than driving a cow to market.
>
> Simon.
>

Forgotten in all this, I am afraid, is the fact that Heather can't drive.JR>Simon:
>
>Actually, Heather and I had worked out a deal to meet halfway.
>(Which would be an even-Steven trade, no?  Except "halfway" is
>sometnhing like Salina, Kansas, and NO automobile is worth visiting
>there.)
>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
>Date: Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:56 pm
>Subject: Re: The riddle in Driharin O Mo Croi: grammar
>
>> Ed said:
>> >
>> > No, no, no, no.  Heather IS the car dealer.  I am me.
>> >
>>
>> That explains everything. Going back to the original point of diminishing
>> value, I'm not surprised that the car she sells you is worth less, since she
>> clearly has to drive coast-to-coast to deliver it. At least it ought to be
>> quicker than driving a cow to market.
>>
>> Simon.
>>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 5/21/04, John Roberts wrote:>Forgotten in all this, I am afraid, is the fact that Heather can't drive.No, but heather (note lower case) definitely covers ground. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On 5/20/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:>On 2004/05/20 at 09:42:31PM +0100, Dave Eyre wrote:
>
>> >         The books on Ebay are as numerous as the 17 year cicadas in our
>> > yard.
>>
>> I never realised the significance of Dolores's  remark until this morning
>> when BBC Radio 4 Today programme told the story of how the cicadas (in view
>> of other discussions - sickades?  - sickardes? - sicaydes?) invade the east
>> coast states  every year and down to Georgia (they said).
>
>        While there are *some* cicadas every year, these are a special
>batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only come up at the
>end of that time.
>
>        There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not show up in as
>spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting that both periods
>are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the same time only
>once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a total
>overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.It may surprise some people to realize that this is an area that
has garnered a fair amount of scientific research -- but it has.
I read several articles about cicadas in the past few months.
Not that I have much perspective, since we don't get cicadas
here.But the prime numbers are in fact thought to be significant (though
not the 13 vs. 17 cycle). It's thought that it's a survival mechanism:
By waiting such a long time, and such an odd time, the cicadas assure
that there are no specific predators waiting for them to come up.Just general predators. :-)Don't consider this the last word, BTW. It's a hypothesis (not a
theory), but no one has figured out how to upgrade it to true
"theory" status or to test it.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>On 5/20/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
>>On 2004/05/20 at 09:42:31PM +0100, Dave Eyre wrote:
>>
>>>  >         The books on Ebay are as numerous as the 17 year cicadas in our
>>>  > yard.
>>>
>>>  I never realised the significance of Dolores's  remark until this morning
>>>  when BBC Radio 4 Today programme told the story of how the cicadas (in view
>>>  of other discussions - sickades?  - sickardes? - sicaydes?) invade the east
>>>  coast states  every year and down to Georgia (they said).
>>
>>         While there are *some* cicadas every year, these are a special
>>batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only come up at the
>>end of that time.
>>
>>         There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not show up in as
>>spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting that both periods
>>are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the same time only
>>once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a total
>>overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.
>
>It may surprise some people to realize that this is an area that
>has garnered a fair amount of scientific research -- but it has.
>I read several articles about cicadas in the past few months.
>Not that I have much perspective, since we don't get cicadas
>here.
>
>But the prime numbers are in fact thought to be significant (though
>not the 13 vs. 17 cycle). It's thought that it's a survival mechanism:
>By waiting such a long time, and such an odd time, the cicadas assure
>that there are no specific predators waiting for them to come up.
>
>Just general predators. :-)
>
>Don't consider this the last word, BTW. It's a hypothesis (not a
>theory), but no one has figured out how to upgrade it to true
>"theory" status or to test it.
>
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."Wake 'em up after 12 or 16 years?  :-)>I can see how hiding for 13 or 17 years discourages predators. But I
have my doubts about the prime numbers. Seems like the cicadas would
be better off if all the different species came out the same year.
"There's safety in numbers." (c) 2004 -- or is that folklore?  :-))>
--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

>
>None of us has been here too long! (pick the grammar out of that!)None:  pronoun, subjective/nominative case, here singular, subject of sentence.of us:  prepositional adjectival phrase (preposition: of; object of
preposition: us, pronoun, first person plural, objective case) modifying
__none__.has been: verb, present perfect tense, third person singular to agree with
subject __none__, predicate of sentence.here: adverb, modifying verb __has been__.long: adverb, modifying verb __has been__.too: adverb, modifying adverb __long__.Probably a case might also be made that the adverbial phrase __too long__
modifies the adverb __here__.Satisfied?Now can we quit this nonsense?William Bernard McCarthy
Professor of English
The Pennsylvania State University

On 2004/05/21 at 08:04:11AM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> On 5/20/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:        [ ... ]> >        While there are *some* cicadas every year, these are a special
> >batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only come up at the
> >end of that time.
> >
> >        There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not show up in as
> >spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting that both periods
> >are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the same time only
> >once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a total
> >overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.        [ ... ]> But the prime numbers are in fact thought to be significant (though
> not the 13 vs. 17 cycle). It's thought that it's a survival mechanism:
> By waiting such a long time, and such an odd time, the cicadas assure
> that there are no specific predators waiting for them to come up.        My own feeling is that the various prime numbers are to assure
that they come up at the same time very infrequently, thus minimizing
the competition for resources -- and perhaps the problems of
distinguishing the proper species for avoiding interbreeding.  (I wonder
what the cycle time of a mating of a 13-year and a 17-year flavor is?)        FWIW -- I took a tuning meter outside, and found that the
typical reading was E-6 (sixth octave) between 0 and +40 cents, with an
occasional reading in the Eb-6 range instead.  Perhaps female vs male?
Anyway -- there are so many of them, that the *perception* of pitch is
much lower, thanks to the variation in pitch producing beat notes.        The readings were taken while the outside temperature was 82 F,
just in case the frequency varies with temperature as it does with the
chirp rate of crickets.        There are a lot more of them airborne now.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

A copy of Henderson's _Ballads of WII_ is available for $33.If you are not interested in the booklet, please forward it on to
those you may think would like it.Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~1. Ballads of World War II First Collection. by Maceanruig, Seumas Mor
(Henderson, Hamish) (collected by).: Glasgow: Lili Marleen, no date.
1st edition, 8vo, pp iv 48, ownership name on front blank, order form
and newspaper obituary of Hamish Henderson loosely inserted, vg+ in
slightly edge-bruised original printed card wrappers with a few short
tears and a small area of light foxing on the front wrapper.
(Keywords: BALLADS OF WORLD WAR II, SEUMAS MOR MACEANRUIG, HAMISH
HENDERSON, LILI MARLEEN CLUB. FOLKLORE.)
The price of the book is US$ 32.95 Carriage charged at cost.
 Please reference the seller's book # 2721 when ordering.To order this book click here:
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?ph=1&bi=291577572The seller is Richard Valentine Books
Unit 19, Nailsworth Mills Estate, Avening Road, Nailsworth,, Stroud,
Glos., ., United Kingdom, GL6 0BS.
<mailto:[unmask]> Ph: 01453-835906
Terms of sale: Payment by cheque when ordering books. If paying in
currencies other than sterling, please add the equivalent of £6 to
cover bank conversion charges. Books will be despatched on receipt of
payment.------------------------------------------------------------------Abebooks. Because you read.Visit Our Community Forums
We are pleased to provide a place for our community of professional
booksellers and avid book readers to interact with one another. To
join the forums, simply sign on, create a nickname, and start posting!
Use the links below to go there now.http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/ForumsPL (Abebooks.com Users)
http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/ForumsPL (Abebooks.co.uk Users)This mail was created 21/May/04 11:02 and postmarked 21/May/04 11:23.

I think only the males make the sound which is apparently irresistible to
females.Dean Clamons
PO Box 217
Clifton, VA 20124
703-631-9655 (h)----- Original Message -----
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Cicadas (Was: Re: Ebay List - 05/13/04)> On 2004/05/21 at 08:04:11AM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> > On 5/20/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
>         [ ... ]
>
> > >        While there are *some* cicadas every year, these are a special
> > >batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only come up at
the
> > >end of that time.
> > >
> > >        There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not show up in as
> > >spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting that both
periods
> > >are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the same time only
> > >once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a total
> > >overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.
>
>         [ ... ]
>
> > But the prime numbers are in fact thought to be significant (though
> > not the 13 vs. 17 cycle). It's thought that it's a survival mechanism:
> > By waiting such a long time, and such an odd time, the cicadas assure
> > that there are no specific predators waiting for them to come up.
>
>         My own feeling is that the various prime numbers are to assure
> that they come up at the same time very infrequently, thus minimizing
> the competition for resources -- and perhaps the problems of
> distinguishing the proper species for avoiding interbreeding.  (I wonder
> what the cycle time of a mating of a 13-year and a 17-year flavor is?)
>
>         FWIW -- I took a tuning meter outside, and found that the
> typical reading was E-6 (sixth octave) between 0 and +40 cents, with an
> occasional reading in the Eb-6 range instead.  Perhaps female vs male?
> Anyway -- there are so many of them, that the *perception* of pitch is
> much lower, thanks to the variation in pitch producing beat notes.
>
>         The readings were taken while the outside temperature was 82 F,
> just in case the frequency varies with temperature as it does with the
> chirp rate of crickets.
>
>         There are a lot more of them airborne now.
>
>         Enjoy,
>                 DoN.
>
> --
>  Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
>         (too) near Washington D.C. |
http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
>            --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
>

WATCH THIS VIDEO NOW!
CICADAS...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/metro/051804-22v.htmCB"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:
>
> On 5/20/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
> >On 2004/05/20 at 09:42:31PM +0100, Dave Eyre wrote:
> >
> >> >         The books on Ebay are as numerous as the 17 year cicadas in our
> >> > yard.
> >>
> >> I never realised the significance of Dolores's  remark until this morning
> >> when BBC Radio 4 Today programme told the story of how the cicadas (in view
> >> of other discussions - sickades?  - sickardes? - sicaydes?) invade the east
> >> coast states  every year and down to Georgia (they said).
> >
> >        While there are *some* cicadas every year, these are a special
> >batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only come up at the
> >end of that time.
> >
> >        There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not show up in as
> >spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting that both periods
> >are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the same time only
> >once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a total
> >overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.
>
> It may surprise some people to realize that this is an area that
> has garnered a fair amount of scientific research -- but it has.
> I read several articles about cicadas in the past few months.
> Not that I have much perspective, since we don't get cicadas
> here.
>
> But the prime numbers are in fact thought to be significant (though
> not the 13 vs. 17 cycle). It's thought that it's a survival mechanism:
> By waiting such a long time, and such an odd time, the cicadas assure
> that there are no specific predators waiting for them to come up.
>
> Just general predators. :-)
>
> Don't consider this the last word, BTW. It's a hypothesis (not a
> theory), but no one has figured out how to upgrade it to true
> "theory" status or to test it.
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

On 5/21/04, Alan Ackerman wrote:[ ... ]>I can see how hiding for 13 or 17 years discourages predators. But I
>have my doubts about the prime numbers. Seems like the cicadas would
>be better off if all the different species came out the same year.
>"There's safety in numbers." (c) 2004 -- or is that folklore?  :-))>The suggestion -- and note that it was only a suggestion -- is that
the prime number *is* significant, because it's out of phase with
everything (including, incidentally, sunspot cycles). Many creatures
operate on multi-year cycles -- think salmon, for instance.Now think about it. Most of these cycles are relatively short --
two years, three years, four years, five years. Suppose the
cicadas had gone for a 16-year cycle. That would mean that
anything with a two-year cycle would always be in the same
phase when the cicadas came out. If they had an 18-year
cycle, they'd be vulnerable to all 2-year cycle and 3-year
cycle critters. The whole idea, under this hypothesis, is
to have a prime number of years so as to make it much harder
for anything to "align" on the cicadas.Again, it's only a hypothesis, not a theory, and I don't
know of any work being done on testing it. (I'm not a
biologist; I probably wouldn't understand what they were
doing if they *did* work on testing it. :-)There is a sort of a musical tie-in, though not to folk music:
Think of the fragment "Gary, Indiana." What makes this silly
fragment possible is that the number of notes in the tune
is not equal to the number of syllables in the text, so the
whole thing rotates out of phase.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Well, I think that's a conversation killer, if ever I saw one.
Next subject please.
Simon> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Conrad Bladey ***Peasant****
> Sent: 21 May 2004 20:30
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Cicadas (Was: Re: Ebay List - 05/13/04)
>
>
> WATCH THIS VIDEO NOW!
> CICADAS...
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/metro/051804-22v.htm
>
> CB
>
> "Robert B. Waltz" wrote:
> >
> > On 5/20/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:
> >
> > >On 2004/05/20 at 09:42:31PM +0100, Dave Eyre wrote:
> > >
> > >> >         The books on Ebay are as numerous as the 17
> year cicadas in our
> > >> > yard.
> > >>
> > >> I never realised the significance of Dolores's  remark
> until this morning
> > >> when BBC Radio 4 Today programme told the story of how
> the cicadas (in view
> > >> of other discussions - sickades?  - sickardes? -
> sicaydes?) invade the east
> > >> coast states  every year and down to Georgia (they said).
> > >
> > >        While there are *some* cicadas every year, these
> are a special
> > >batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only
> come up at the
> > >end of that time.
> > >
> > >        There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not
> show up in as
> > >spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting
> that both periods
> > >are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the
> same time only
> > >once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a total
> > >overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.
> >
> > It may surprise some people to realize that this is an area that
> > has garnered a fair amount of scientific research -- but it has.
> > I read several articles about cicadas in the past few months.
> > Not that I have much perspective, since we don't get cicadas
> > here.
> >
> > But the prime numbers are in fact thought to be significant (though
> > not the 13 vs. 17 cycle). It's thought that it's a survival
> mechanism:
> > By waiting such a long time, and such an odd time, the
> cicadas assure
> > that there are no specific predators waiting for them to come up.
> >
> > Just general predators. :-)
> >
> > Don't consider this the last word, BTW. It's a hypothesis (not a
> > theory), but no one has figured out how to upgrade it to true
> > "theory" status or to test it.
> >
> > --
> > Bob Waltz
> > [unmask]
> >
> > "The one thing we learn from history --
> >    is that no one ever learns from history."
>
> --
> "I had to walk down the road with
> my throat a little dry
> ranting like Jimmy Durante
> My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
> And my debts were all outstanding
> outstanding
> In a field of debts outstanding
> my outraged heart was handy
> at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
> and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"
>
>
> __________ NOD32 1.768 (20040520) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.nod32.com
>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I can do that sound but have no luck with females....
Hey...anyone have any ballads of cicadas?
CBDean clamons wrote:
>
> I think only the males make the sound which is apparently irresistible to
> females.
>
> Dean Clamons
> PO Box 217
> Clifton, VA 20124
> 703-631-9655 (h)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 2:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Cicadas (Was: Re: Ebay List - 05/13/04)
>
> > On 2004/05/21 at 08:04:11AM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
> >
> > > On 5/20/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:
> >
> >         [ ... ]
> >
> > > >        While there are *some* cicadas every year, these are a special
> > > >batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only come up at
> the
> > > >end of that time.
> > > >
> > > >        There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not show up in as
> > > >spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting that both
> periods
> > > >are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the same time only
> > > >once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a total
> > > >overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.
> >
> >         [ ... ]
> >
> > > But the prime numbers are in fact thought to be significant (though
> > > not the 13 vs. 17 cycle). It's thought that it's a survival mechanism:
> > > By waiting such a long time, and such an odd time, the cicadas assure
> > > that there are no specific predators waiting for them to come up.
> >
> >         My own feeling is that the various prime numbers are to assure
> > that they come up at the same time very infrequently, thus minimizing
> > the competition for resources -- and perhaps the problems of
> > distinguishing the proper species for avoiding interbreeding.  (I wonder
> > what the cycle time of a mating of a 13-year and a 17-year flavor is?)
> >
> >         FWIW -- I took a tuning meter outside, and found that the
> > typical reading was E-6 (sixth octave) between 0 and +40 cents, with an
> > occasional reading in the Eb-6 range instead.  Perhaps female vs male?
> > Anyway -- there are so many of them, that the *perception* of pitch is
> > much lower, thanks to the variation in pitch producing beat notes.
> >
> >         The readings were taken while the outside temperature was 82 F,
> > just in case the frequency varies with temperature as it does with the
> > chirp rate of crickets.
> >
> >         There are a lot more of them airborne now.
> >
> >         Enjoy,
> >                 DoN.
> >
> > --
> >  Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
> >         (too) near Washington D.C. |
> http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
> >            --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
> >--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

Greetings one and all...Over the past few years I have discovered that the Local Baltimore German
community has been loosing their music and lyrics. When you cant sing the
hofbrauhaus song you are in bad shape! Even the pennsylvania bands hired
for the local fest cant remember their lines. Recently I went to Houston
for the artcar show- last year. I was invited to the singing society for
their social meeting. There I found several younger members not knowing the
words to the popular songs of the oktoberfest etc... Time for a songbook so
that they could join in...
Searchin for a good Bavarian songbook of Oktoberfest songs and finding none
I put one together. This year on my return to Houston it was given rave
reviews. So I added three songs on request and it is now ready.CB
More information here:
http://www.geocities.com/mrwassail/oktsale.html
--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

Over the past few years I have discovered that the Local Baltimore German
community has been loosing their music and lyrics. When you cant sing the
hofbrauhaus song you are in bad shape! Even the pennsylvania bands hired
for the local fest cant remember their lines. Recently I went to Houston
for the artcar show- last year. I was invited to the singing society for
their social meeting. There I found several younger members not knowing the
words to the popular songs of the oktoberfest etc... Time for a songbook so
that they could join in...
Searchin for a good Bavarian songbook of Oktoberfest songs and finding none
I put one together. This year on my return to Houston it was given rave
reviews. So I added three songs on request and it is now ready.CB
--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

If anyone's interested in the content of the booklet, rather than the
booklet itself, please E-nail me at [unmask]
dick greenhausJõhn Méhlbërg wrote:>A copy of Henderson's _Ballads of WII_ is available for $33.
>
>If you are not interested in the booklet, please forward it on to
>those you may think would like it.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>John Mehlberg
>~
>
>1. Ballads of World War II First Collection. by Maceanruig, Seumas Mor
>(Henderson, Hamish) (collected by).: Glasgow: Lili Marleen, no date.
>1st edition, 8vo, pp iv 48, ownership name on front blank, order form
>and newspaper obituary of Hamish Henderson loosely inserted, vg+ in
>slightly edge-bruised original printed card wrappers with a few short
>tears and a small area of light foxing on the front wrapper.
>(Keywords: BALLADS OF WORLD WAR II, SEUMAS MOR MACEANRUIG, HAMISH
>HENDERSON, LILI MARLEEN CLUB. FOLKLORE.)
>The price of the book is US$ 32.95 Carriage charged at cost.
> Please reference the seller's book # 2721 when ordering.
>
>To order this book click here:
>http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookDetails?ph=1&bi=291577572
>
>
>The seller is Richard Valentine Books
>Unit 19, Nailsworth Mills Estate, Avening Road, Nailsworth,, Stroud,
>Glos., ., United Kingdom, GL6 0BS.
><mailto:[unmask]> Ph: 01453-835906
>Terms of sale: Payment by cheque when ordering books. If paying in
>currencies other than sterling, please add the equivalent of £6 to
>cover bank conversion charges. Books will be despatched on receipt of
>payment.
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Abebooks. Because you read.
>
>Visit Our Community Forums
>We are pleased to provide a place for our community of professional
>booksellers and avid book readers to interact with one another. To
>join the forums, simply sign on, create a nickname, and start posting!
>Use the links below to go there now.
>
>http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/ForumsPL (Abebooks.com Users)
>http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/ForumsPL (Abebooks.co.uk Users)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>This mail was created 21/May/04 11:02 and postmarked 21/May/04 11:23.
>
>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 5/21/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:[ ... ]>        FWIW -- I took a tuning meter outside, and found that the
>typical reading was E-6 (sixth octave) between 0 and +40 cents, with an
>occasional reading in the Eb-6 range instead.  Perhaps female vs male?
>Anyway -- there are so many of them, that the *perception* of pitch is
>much lower, thanks to the variation in pitch producing beat notes.
>
>        The readings were taken while the outside temperature was 82 F,
>just in case the frequency varies with temperature as it does with the
>chirp rate of crickets.Just to add more data -- they had a professional sound guy on
All Things Considered to test them out. The results:70 dB sound level1250 Hz primary frequency. Which, given that E is 359, does
indeed mean that they would be a bit on the south side of E.
Not sure how to correlate the octaves.This is somewhere near Washington, DC, so it's about the same
conditions DoN is testing.ATC was looking for songs about cicadas, too.The heat suggestion is interesting. Wonder if you could tune
them? :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Nope...Cicadas are not locusts.....
yes they are confused with locusts but there is some important
difference.....
Article somewhere mentioned that some Montgomery County grants agency was
commissioning someone to write a piece of music about cicadas.....in true
spirit of well done grant proposal writing the guy got the grant even
though he lived in New York and had never ever heard them! Typical!Conrad> vze29j8v wrote:
>
> Dunno about cicadas, but there's an American Revolutionary rewrite of
> Hearts of Oak" with the lines:
> "Swarms of placemen and pensioners soon will appear
> Like locusts deforming the charms of the year.
> Suns vainly will rise, showers vainly descend,
> If we are to drudge for what others will spend."
>
> and  (by Dan Fogelberg):
> Oh, they came like herds of locusts
> Every woman, child and man
> In their lumberin' connestogas
> They left their track upon the land.
>
> Conrad Bladey ***Peasant**** wrote:
>
> > I can do that sound but have no luck with females....
> > Hey...anyone have any ballads of cicadas?
> > CB
> >
> > Dean clamons wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I think only the males make the sound which is apparently
> >> irresistible to
> >> females.
> >>
> >> Dean Clamons
> >> PO Box 217
> >> Clifton, VA 20124
> >> 703-631-9655 (h)
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
> >> To: <[unmask]>
> >> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 2:12 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Cicadas (Was: Re: Ebay List - 05/13/04)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > On 2004/05/21 at 08:04:11AM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>  On 5/20/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >         [ ... ]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> >        While there are *some* cicadas every year, these are a
> >> >> > special
> >> >> > batch -- they spend seventeen years underground, and only come
> >> >> > up at
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> the
> >>
> >>
> >> >> > end of that time.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >        There is also a 13-year variety -- which does not show up
> >> >> > in as
> >> >> > spectacular numbers as the 17-year.  It is interesting that both
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> periods
> >>
> >>
> >> >> > are prime, which suggests that they will come up at the same
> >> >> > time only
> >> >> > once every 221 years.  And the range of distribution is not a
> >> >> > total
> >> >> > overlap, so most areas will not see the double dose.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >         [ ... ]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>  But the prime numbers are in fact thought to be significant
> >> >>  (though
> >> >>  not the 13 vs. 17 cycle). It's thought that it's a survival
> >> >>  mechanism:
> >> >>  By waiting such a long time, and such an odd time, the cicadas
> >> >>  assure
> >> >>  that there are no specific predators waiting for them to come up.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >         My own feeling is that the various prime numbers are to
> >> > assure
> >> > that they come up at the same time very infrequently, thus
> >> > minimizing
> >> > the competition for resources -- and perhaps the problems of
> >> > distinguishing the proper species for avoiding interbreeding.  (I
> >> > wonder
> >> > what the cycle time of a mating of a 13-year and a 17-year flavor
> >> > is?)
> >> >
> >> >         FWIW -- I took a tuning meter outside, and found that the
> >> > typical reading was E-6 (sixth octave) between 0 and +40 cents, with
> >> > an
> >> > occasional reading in the Eb-6 range instead.  Perhaps female vs
> >> > male?
> >> > Anyway -- there are so many of them, that the *perception* of pitch
> >> > is
> >> > much lower, thanks to the variation in pitch producing beat notes.
> >> >
> >> >         The readings were taken while the outside temperature was 82
> >> > F,
> >> > just in case the frequency varies with temperature as it does with
> >> > the
> >> > chirp rate of crickets.
> >> >
> >> >         There are a lot more of them airborne now.
> >> >
> >> >         Enjoy,
> >> >                 DoN.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >  Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703)
> >> > 938-4564
> >> >         (too) near Washington D.C. |
> >> >
> >> >
> >> http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
> >>
> >>
> >> >            --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> > --
> > "I had to walk down the road with
> > my throat a little dry
> > ranting like Jimmy Durante
> > My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
> > And my debts were all outstanding
> > outstanding
> > In a field of debts outstanding
> > my outraged heart was handy
> > at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
> > and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"
> >
> >
> >--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

On 2004/05/21 at 06:01:29PM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> On 5/21/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:        [ ... ]> Just to add more data -- they had a professional sound guy on
> All Things Considered to test them out. The results:
>
> 70 dB sound level        It apparently varies with time of day.  A bit after noon, they
were loud enough so I got frequent readings (though not steady ones).
About 4:00 PM, they were quiet enough so I didn't see any twitch of the
needle and LEDs.  I didn't bother going back in and bringing out a
stand-alone microphone and a mix board to feed the tuning meter, so I
don't know whether the pitch changed as well.> 1250 Hz primary frequency. Which, given that E is 359, does
> indeed mean that they would be a bit on the south side of E.
> Not sure how to correlate the octaves.        Well ... two octaves up from 359 is 1436.  Each half-tone is
a multipler (or divisor) of 1.059464.        Starting from modern pitch at 440.0 Hz, four half-tones take us
down to 349.22 Hz, (below your 359), and three half-tones give us 369.99
Hz, so your 359 is either a typo, or some other pitch standard.  Five
half-tones should be the interval from A down to E, which goes on down
to 329.62 Hz, and two octaves up from that gets us to 1318.51 Hz, and a
half-tone down from that gives Eb as 1244.50 Hz, which is pretty close
to what the NPR guy measured.  A cent is a multiplier (or divisor) of
1.000578, so it shows up as 7.62 cents sharp of Eb.        I wonder whether he was measuring a captive individual, or the
overall meld of the hundreds or thousands which you hear outdoors here.
A captive individual could give a different pitch than I was getting
from the overall outdoors.        Also -- the rather even 1250 Hz sounds more like the nearest
marking on an audio spectrum analyzer, which would not give sufficient
precision for musical purposes.  (But it would make it easy to see
multiple spikes from adjacent individuals.> This is somewhere near Washington, DC, so it's about the same
> conditions DoN is testing.        Unless he had a captive individual in an air-conditioned space,
which is pretty likely as the weather is going here.  (Actually, there
is currently a thunderstorm going outside, so I may or may not continue
with power to communicate here.> ATC was looking for songs about cicadas, too.
>
> The heat suggestion is interesting. Wonder if you could tune
> them? :-)        It sounds as though you would also have to select them to get a
group at the same pitch.  There are plenty out there, so that should be
possible.  But conditions of captivity may shift the pitch -- or it may
even be that if the neighboring ones are using an individual's preferred
pitch, he may shift to get a greater chance at attracting a female.  In
that case, you could never get a tuned group, unless you had isolation
booths for each individual. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 5/21/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:[ ... ]> > 1250 Hz primary frequency. Which, given that E is 359, does
>> indeed mean that they would be a bit on the south side of E.
>> Not sure how to correlate the octaves.
>
>        Well ... two octaves up from 359 is 1436.  Each half-tone is
>a multipler (or divisor) of 1.059464.
>
>        Starting from modern pitch at 440.0 Hz, four half-tones take us
>down to 349.22 Hz, (below your 359), and three half-tones give us 369.99
>Hz, so your 359 is either a typo, or some other pitch standard.  Five
>half-tones should be the interval from A down to E, which goes on down
>to 329.62 Hz, and two octaves up from that gets us to 1318.51 Hz, and a
>half-tone down from that gives Eb as 1244.50 Hz, which is pretty close
>to what the NPR guy measured.  A cent is a multiplier (or divisor) of
>1.000578, so it shows up as 7.62 cents sharp of Eb.
>
>        I wonder whether he was measuring a captive individual, or the
>overall meld of the hundreds or thousands which you hear outdoors here.
>A captive individual could give a different pitch than I was getting
>from the overall outdoors.He was measuring the whole sound in the vicinity of the microphone.
So that was the peak of the frequency spectrum.I wonder if they might tune to each other, so if one picks a particular
pitch, they all go along.>        Also -- the rather even 1250 Hz sounds more like the nearest
>marking on an audio spectrum analyzer, which would not give sufficient
>precision for musical purposes.  (But it would make it easy to see
>multiple spikes from adjacent individuals.This I can't answer. He might have been rounding off. It sounded
as if he had reasonably advanced equipment, but I wasn't paying
the closest attention.There might be more information on the National Public Radio
web site. They would almost certainly have an audio clip of
the feature, at least.> > This is somewhere near Washington, DC, so it's about the same
>> conditions DoN is testing.
>
>        Unless he had a captive individual in an air-conditioned space,
>which is pretty likely as the weather is going here.  (Actually, there
>is currently a thunderstorm going outside, so I may or may not continue
>with power to communicate here.No, it was outdoors -- but it may well have been early in the day
Friday. Or even Thursday.Incidentally, to those who think this is off-topic: A subject
we've never really tackled is how humans developed music in the
first place. Since folk music is, by definition really, the first
type of human music, it's a valid topic of discussion. Most of
us, I think, would assume that the inspiration was birds if
anything -- but who's to say insects didn't figure in? If they
*do* tune to each other, it might have given someone an idea.
Because birds generally don't do that.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]><<I wonder if they might tune to each other, so if one picks a particular
pitch, they all go along.[snip]Incidentally, to those who think this is off-topic: A subject
we've never really tackled is how humans developed music in the
first place. Since folk music is, by definition really, the first
type of human music, it's a valid topic of discussion. Most of
us, I think, would assume that the inspiration was birds if
anything -- but who's to say insects didn't figure in? If they
*do* tune to each other, it might have given someone an idea.
Because birds generally don't do that.>>The topic of how groups coordinate activities to be in synchronization is a
hot topic in biology right now. They've investigated questions such as how
cicadas get in tune, and how audiences occasionally merge into rhythmic
clapping. The related topic of how human choruses or groups of singers
synchronize time and pitch is, of course, quite germane. And I'd love to see
what the investigators would make of the dockworker trallaleri choruses Alan
Lomax recorded in Genoa!Peace,
Paul

Bob Waltz said:
(snip)> Incidentally, to those who think this is off-topic: A subject
> we've never really tackled is how humans developed music in the
> first place. Since folk music is, by definition really, the first
> type of human music, it's a valid topic of discussion. Most of
> us, I think, would assume that the inspiration was birds if
> anything -- but who's to say insects didn't figure in? If they
> *do* tune to each other, it might have given someone an idea.
> Because birds generally don't do that.Actually, Bob, this isn't true. A good many bird species mimic each other
all the time, which can make bird identification by song very difficult,
except to really good birders (of whom I am not one; I have more enthusiasm
than skill). But I'm completely with you on the idea that human music is
influenced by more than just birds. All kinds of ambient sounds can be
influences. The bird influence thing was very much a theory of 19th century
folk song researchers, and I believe it to be romantic nonsense. So there.Cheers
Simon

A new version of my Folk Song and Broadside Indexes was mailed to subscribers yesterday, so if you don't receive it within a week in the UK or two weeks in the US, please let me know.
I forgot to say, in the accompanying letter about FABLE (you'll understand that when you get it), that if anyone wants to send me details of articles they have written, especially in non-mainstream folklore publications, I'd be pleased to include them in the next version.
Steve RoudSignup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

On 5/22/04, Simon Furey wrote:>Bob Waltz said:
>(snip)
>
>> Incidentally, to those who think this is off-topic: A subject
>> we've never really tackled is how humans developed music in the
>> first place. Since folk music is, by definition really, the first
>> type of human music, it's a valid topic of discussion. Most of
>> us, I think, would assume that the inspiration was birds if
>> anything -- but who's to say insects didn't figure in? If they
>> *do* tune to each other, it might have given someone an idea.
>> Because birds generally don't do that.
>
>Actually, Bob, this isn't true. A good many bird species mimic each other
>all the time, which can make bird identification by song very difficult,
>except to really good birders (of whom I am not one; I have more enthusiasm
>than skill).That's not what I said. They *mimic* each other, but to mimic is
not to attune on pitch. Birds with similar songs often seem to
deliberately pitch things slightly differently, as if to say,
"I'm me and that one's a fake." Very rarely do you hear two birds
with similar calls using the same pitch.In fact, some communicate by pitch. Chickadees are a notable
and easy-to-hear example. Not their scold (chick-a-dee-dee-dee),
but their territorial call (whee-hooooo). They use that one
to locate each other, and they always do it on slightly different
pitches, but with the *interval* fixed.There may be birds that tune to each other, but they are rare
(at least in the midwest).>But I'm completely with you on the idea that human music is
>influenced by more than just birds. All kinds of ambient sounds can be
>influences. The bird influence thing was very much a theory of 19th century
>folk song researchers, and I believe it to be romantic nonsense. So there.Well -- but calling something bunk doesn't give us anything to
replace it. Other mammals don't have music. So why do we?
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

>
>
>Bob Waltz said:
>
> (clip)Other mammals don't have music. So why do we?
> --
>Well, some may dispute this, using whales as an example. But only humans have bluegrass!

Hi, Steve.  I look forward to receiving my copy.  And thanks for all your work and erstwhile dedication.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of [unmask]
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 12:52 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Folk Song IndexA new version of my Folk Song and Broadside Indexes was mailed to subscribers yesterday, so if you don't receive it within a week in the UK or two weeks in the US, please let me know.
I forgot to say, in the accompanying letter about FABLE (you'll understand that when you get it), that if anyone wants to send me details of articles they have written, especially in non-mainstream folklore publications, I'd be pleased to include them in the next version.
Steve RoudSignup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

Dear Paul,In a m:essage dated 5/22/04 9:54:11 AM,either you or Bob Waltz ( I can never
keep up with all those ticky marks!) wrote:<< Since folk music is, by definition really, the firsttype of human music.... >>
*****************************************
Actually, you probably already know that many scholars, following the lead of
 Cecil Sharp, distnguish between PRIMITIVE music, which they say is the first
type of human music,  found only in cultures havig no literate tradition, and
FOLK music, which  they say is the music of the illiterate portions of  a
culture in which literacy, and a tradition of written classical music, are  also
known. This is why Sharp's convert and apologist, Maude Karpeles, told Jean
Ritchie that Jean could never be considered a true folk singer because she had
gone to college and was literate, being able to read both "reading and music!"Apropos of nothing much, have you heard of the Sepik people of  (I think) New
Guinea, who hold a buzzing cicada next to their mouths and produce music much
in the manner of a player of the "jew's-harp"  or guimbarde?  (They use their
mouths as variable Helmholtz resonators, as do the players of those
widespread instruments, with  the buzzing insect as the source of sound.)Best regards,Sam
La Jolla, CA

On 5/22/04, [unmask] wrote:>Dear Paul,
>
>In a m:essage dated 5/22/04 9:54:11 AM,either you or Bob Waltz ( I can never
>keep up with all those ticky marks!) wrote:
>
>
>
><< Since folk music is, by definition really, the first
>
>type of human music.... >>
>*****************************************
>Actually, you probably already know that many scholars, following the lead of
> Cecil Sharp, distnguish between PRIMITIVE music, which they say is the first
>type of human music,  found only in cultures havig no literate tradition, and
>FOLK music, which  they say is the music of the illiterate portions of  a
>culture in which literacy, and a tradition of written classical music, are  also
>known. This is why Sharp's convert and apologist, Maude Karpeles, told Jean
>Ritchie that Jean could never be considered a true folk singer because she had
>gone to college and was literate, being able to read both "reading and music!"I've read the distinction, now that you remind me. But that doesn't
mean I have to pay any attention. :-)Really, in the context of this discussion, it doesn't matter -- unless
one assumes that, somehow, the primitives all stopped having music
and then the illiterates proceeded to reinvent the whole concept.
Which is absurd, but even if true, both groups had an inspiration
*or* reinvented the concept. It doesn't matter if there were
multiple inventions; as long as there was *one*, then there had to
be an inspiration.>Apropos of nothing much, have you heard of the Sepik people of  (I think) New
>Guinea, who hold a buzzing cicada next to their mouths and produce music much
>in the manner of a player of the "jew's-harp"  or guimbarde?  (They use their
>mouths as variable Helmholtz resonators, as do the players of those
>widespread instruments, with  the buzzing insect as the source of sound.)Seems like a lot of work when one could just hum. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On 2004/05/22 at 05:34:14PM -0400, [unmask] wrote:        [ ... ]> Apropos of nothing much, have you heard of the Sepik people of  (I think) New
> Guinea, who hold a buzzing cicada next to their mouths and produce music much
> in the manner of a player of the "jew's-harp"  or guimbarde?  (They use their
> mouths as variable Helmholtz resonators, as do the players of those
> widespread instruments, with  the buzzing insect as the source of sound.)        Hmm ... which flavor?  The 17-year, the 13-year, or some more
common one?  I can't really see waiting for seventeen years before your
next performance. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----- Original Message -----
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>> Apropos of nothing much, have you heard of the Sepik people of  (I think)
New
> Guinea, who hold a buzzing cicada next to their mouths and produce music
much
> in the manner of a player of the "jew's-harp"  or guimbarde?  (They use
their
> mouths as variable Helmholtz resonators, as do the players of those
> widespread instruments, with  the buzzing insect as the source of sound.)<<        Hmm ... which flavor?  The 17-year, the 13-year, or some more
common one?  I can't really see waiting for seventeen years before your
next performance. :-) >>I dunno -- I can see John Cage specifying just such a thing.Oh, and why one couldn't just hum: with a cicada, you don't have to stop for
inhaling. Kind of like idiophonic bagpipes.Peace,
Paul

Has anyone (including Lomax) ever recorded more of
this very incredible music? Sounds something like the
Tenadores (sp?) of Sardinia--but not quite. I also
heard some Gypsies in Lyon, France singing something
similar, accompanying themselves on hurdy-gurdy and
hammered dulcimer-- but, again, not quite."...the dockworker trallaleri choruses Alan Lomax
recorded in Genoa!"CA

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Thanks for the note, Steve. I have completed the first draft of a study of
the Isaiah Thomas Broadside COllection at the American Antiquarian Society
which they plan to publish in the Proceedings and as a stand alone book,
probably release 2005-6. The book will have images of each broadside plus
period copies of relevent music settings or referenced tunes. Thomas bought
the collection in 1814, so it is unique and a superb historical resource.I've leaned heavily on your work; referencing your data bases rather than
outlining all the various places where the 371 different texts appear over
the years. I hope that this will bring your index to the attention of a
wider public than just the mainstream folkies. There are a lot of academics
who should know about it.Which brings me to how to cite the index in such a way that people can find
out how to become a subscriber. I've never been quite clear myself, as I
think we should be sending you more money for the new edition. I think our
first one was a trade for the Playford Image CD.Our best,Kate (and Bob) Keller----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:51 PM
Subject: Folk Song Index> A new version of my Folk Song and Broadside Indexes was mailed to
subscribers yesterday, so if you don't receive it within a week in the UK or
two weeks in the US, please let me know.
> I forgot to say, in the accompanying letter about FABLE (you'll understand
that when you get it), that if anyone wants to send me details of articles
they have written, especially in non-mainstream folklore publications, I'd
be pleased to include them in the next version.
> Steve Roud
>
>
>
> Signup to supanet at
https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail
>

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
Robert B. Waltz, writes:> I wonder if they might tune to each other, so if one picks a
> particular pitch, they all go along.According to James Agee,  The noise of the locust is dry, and it seems not to be rasped or
  vibrated but urged from him as if through a small orifice by a
  breath that can never give out.  Also there is never one locust
  but an illusion of at least a thousand.  The noise of each locust
  is pitched in some classic locust range out of which none of them
  varies more than two full tones: and yet you seem to hear each
  locust discrete from all the rest, and there is a long, slow,
  pulse in their noise, like the scarcely defined arch of a long and
  high set bridge.  They are all around in every tree, so that the
  noise seems to come from nowhere and eerywhere at once, from the
  whole shell of heaven,....
             -- "Knoxville, Summer 1915", in _A Death in the Family_A fanciful description, but one might gather from it that they stick
to their own pitches, even when they are close enough to produce
beats.For those in this company who have not read the book:  You might also
enjoy the description of the little boy waking up from a nightmare &
his father singing him to sleep again, with quotations from quite a
few songs.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  There is no disputing about tastes, but there is a great  :||
||:  deal of bullying.                                         :||

Since Cicadas respond with sound to temperature....probably also humidity
one could put them into a box and use regulation of temp and humidity to
compose!Yes only every 17 years but everyone would be doing it....
Lots of music in the streets....17years ago a friend and I guilded a cicada wings out....wonder where that
is today....ConradPaul Stamler wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
>
> > Apropos of nothing much, have you heard of the Sepik people of  (I think)
> New
> > Guinea, who hold a buzzing cicada next to their mouths and produce music
> much
> > in the manner of a player of the "jew's-harp"  or guimbarde?  (They use
> their
> > mouths as variable Helmholtz resonators, as do the players of those
> > widespread instruments, with  the buzzing insect as the source of sound.)
>
> <<        Hmm ... which flavor?  The 17-year, the 13-year, or some more
> common one?  I can't really see waiting for seventeen years before your
> next performance. :-) >>
>
> I dunno -- I can see John Cage specifying just such a thing.
>
> Oh, and why one couldn't just hum: with a cicada, you don't have to stop for
> inhaling. Kind of like idiophonic bagpipes.
>
> Peace,
> Paul--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

At 9:55AM -0400 5/23/04, Joe Fineman wrote:
>...According to James Agee,     ...       -- "Knoxville, Summer
>1915", in _A Death in the Family_
>Unfortunately, neither a 13 nor a 17 year cycle lands us in 2004 from 1915...But that should not really diminish James Agee's song!David--
-----------
David G. EngleCalifornia State University, Fresno
Tel: (559) 278-2708; FAX: (559) 278-7878
http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang
The Traditional Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
---

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred McCormick" <[unmask]><<Some years ago, a frined of mine, now dead alas, copied a CD of Genoan
Trallalari singers onto cassette for me. Unfortunately, he neglected to tell
me the
name of the record company or the matrix number.However, the name the group gave themselves was SQUADRA DI CANTO POPOLARE
VALPOLCEVERA,  and the title of the disc was TRALLALERO.>>There's also a single track by the Squadra di Bel Canto, "Il Bel Mazzolino
[Lovely Bunch of Flowers]", recorded in the 1920s and reissued on Vol. 4 of
the "Secret Museum of Mankind" series on Yazoo.Peace,
Paul

On 5/23/04, Clifford Ocheltree wrote:>I prefer Louis Armstrong's definition. All music is "folk" music because people make it. Speaking of which it's after midnight here in N. O. and there is a parade passing by, brass bands and all. Must scurry to the balcony.I have to point out the logical flaw with this definition, which is
that it's useless. If all music is "folk" music, then we don't need
a term "folk music" -- because we already have the term "music."Admittedly, given all the things that have been passed off as "folk
music" over the years, we're approaching that status. :-( But the
point still stands. We don't need more confusion. This is not to
condemn other forms of music; much as I hate to admit it, the
evidence is overwhelming that what we like, musically, is what
we have grown accustomed to. But English is already too
multi-valued; at the rate we're going, we're going to say that
all nouns mean the same thing. And, somehow, hearing the sentence
"I enjoy noun because it has so many nouns and nouns and even
noun" doesn't strike me as a useful statement....
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Okay, how many of you guys discussing these darlin' little critters are
actually listening to them?  Yes, i know Don & Dolores can -- we're
neighbors.As i sit here and type, i hear a whole range of sounds.  The "biggest"
although not the loudest is a hollow tenor ring that sounds like an
industrial-strength air conditioner sorely in need of lubricant.  It
always sounds as if it's around the corner or up the street -- even if you
try to walk toward it.Then there's the chorus in the back yard and the parking lot.  They're
louder, a fuller sound, kind of rattle-y and relatively consistent in
tone; there's a flow to it, kind of like waves;  now and again, and again
& again, there's a solo performer nearby that might have a recurring
schwweeoo of a second or two in duration.  The fancier (or more desperate)
ones go on for several seconds.  They start and end a little lower in
pitch than the peak of the crescendo.  And sometimes the solos -- or small
ensemble performances -- sound just like a very angry cat!  Seems to me
quite similar to the non-17-year variety.Last night when i got home from work a little after 2, it was still so
warm and muggy that the hollow distant sound was still happening, although
it was much quieter than when the sun is up.  And on my back deck, one
poor despondent suitor was just schwee-ing up a storm.  A raspy sound,
kind of like a little bitty guiro.  That up-close and personal plea for
one ... uh, relationship ... before passing into oblivion was very sad.
He sounded just like he was crying.  Poor guy.  I wanted to pet him just
above his beady little red eyes, but if i'd opened the door... well, my
cat had different ideas.  But she was entertained.Currently it's 90 degrees and mostly sunny.  I generally do my cicada
listening from inside with a window open; i can afford losing
air-conditioning out the window once in 17 years.  Think I'll walk toward
the park today and see if the sound's any different under the tree canopy.
 And one of these days i'll turn on my tape recorder and collect.Mary Cliff, TRADITIONS
WETA Radio

On 2004/05/23 at 08:25:57AM -0700, David G. Engle wrote:> Unfortunately, neither a 13 nor a 17 year cycle lands us in 2004 from 1915...        Nor does a 7-year cycle.  But a 9-year cycle would work, or a
ten-year cycle.  I *think* that I have heard of some flavors having a
7-year cycle.        Come to think of it -- the 13-year cycle does not hit 2004
anyway -- only the 17-year cycle, so it may well be that the 13-year
ones were being described.  In any case, it is a wonderful description.> But that should not really diminish James Agee's song!        Agreed.        FWIW, I just checked, and 22 different systems other than
Dolores' and my own have visited the cicada web site.  A lot more hits
than I expected.        Most have just looked at the thumbnails, but a few have clicked
on the thumbnails for the larger view on at least some, and one appears
to have clicked for the larger images for every one.  Here are the IPs
who looked at the larger images (with counts of how many of the larger
images each looked at).:   9 24.148.37.207
   4 64.218.115.128
   9 67.101.148.11
   1 67.165.12.251
   1 68.93.160.241
   8 129.8.207.72
   1 192.25.158.13
   1 207.237.216.183
   4 217.159.1.75
   4 217.159.1.76Some of you may recognize your IPs, while others will have come through
proxys, which will hide their own IPs as a side effect.        Today -- I went out and re-checked with the tuning meter, with
the temperature at 93 degrees -- and I find that the average pitch is
lower -- pretty close to right on E6, with just occasional twitches to
the sharp side, and more twitches down to the Eb range.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 5/23/04, DoN. Nichols wrote:>On 2004/05/23 at 08:25:57AM -0700, David G. Engle wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately, neither a 13 nor a 17 year cycle lands us in 2004 from 1915...
>
>        Nor does a 7-year cycle.  But a 9-year cycle would work, or a
>ten-year cycle.  I *think* that I have heard of some flavors having a
>7-year cycle.
>
>        Come to think of it -- the 13-year cycle does not hit 2004
>anyway -- only the 17-year cycle, so it may well be that the 13-year
>ones were being described.  In any case, it is a wonderful description.This may not matter. Even if one assumes that the dating is certain,
the 17 year cycle is not quite as fixed as it sounds. Every cicada,
or nearly every one, spends its 17 years (or 13, or whatever)
underground -- but the magazine articles said that there are a
few coming out every year; it's just that once every 17 years,
we have a crowd.BTW, can someone re-post the URL for visiting this site? I
missed it somewhere, and I haven't been keeping the messages
on this thread, for all that it's largely my fault.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Great info. Thank you Fred & Paul.CA

On Sun, May 23, 2004 at 03:09:25PM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
>
> BTW, can someone re-post the URL for visiting this site? I
> missed it somewhere, and I haven't been keeping the messages
> on this thread, for all that it's largely my fault.Bob,        If you mean Don's site of pictures taken in our yard, it is        http://www2.d-and-d.com/misc/CICADAS-2004/index.html                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On 5/23/04, Dolores Nichols wrote:>On Sun, May 23, 2004 at 03:09:25PM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>>
>>
>> BTW, can someone re-post the URL for visiting this site? I
>> missed it somewhere, and I haven't been keeping the messages
>> on this thread, for all that it's largely my fault.
>
>Bob,
>
>        If you mean Don's site of pictures taken in our yard, it is
>
>        http://www2.d-and-d.com/misc/CICADAS-2004/index.htmlThat was indeed what I meant. Thanks.Never seen anything like that in Minnesota. But then, we knew
that, since I haven't heard them, either. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
David G. Engle, writes:> At 9:55AM -0400 5/23/04, Joe Fineman wrote:
> >...According to James Agee, ...  -- "Knoxville, Summer 1915", in _A
> >Death in the Family_
>
> Unfortunately, neither a 13 nor a 17 year cycle lands us in 2004
> from 1915...
>
> California State University, FresnoEvidently you are not in Knoxville %^).  If cicadas synchronized their
life cycles in Tennessee & California, that would even more remarkable
than if they tuned their frequencies to each other.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  One compass points north.  Two compasses point at each  :||
||:  other.                                                  :||

Cicadas
Sam wrote
>Apropos of nothing much, have you heard of the Sepik people of  (I think) New
>Guinea, who hold a buzzing cicada next to their mouths and produce music much
>in the manner of a player of the "jew's-harp"  or guimbarde?  (They use their
>mouths as variable Helmholtz resonators, as do the players of those
>widespread instruments, with  the buzzing insect as the source of sound.)I used to do this with a water hose directed into my mouth.  Long years ago
in a hot climateMargaret MacArthur

Kate:You must tell us "mainstream folkies" how to purchase a copy of your index.Congratulations.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Kate Van Winkle Keller <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:02 am
Subject: Re: Folk Song Index> Thanks for the note, Steve. I have completed the first draft of a study of
> the Isaiah Thomas Broadside COllection at the American Antiquarian Society
> which they plan to publish in the Proceedings and as a stand alone book,
> probably release 2005-6. The book will have images of each broadside plus
> period copies of relevent music settings or referenced tunes. Thomas bought
> the collection in 1814, so it is unique and a superb historical resource.
>
> I've leaned heavily on your work; referencing your data bases rather than
> outlining all the various places where the 371 different texts appear over
> the years. I hope that this will bring your index to the attention of a
> wider public than just the mainstream folkies. There are a lot of academics
> who should know about it.
>
> Which brings me to how to cite the index in such a way that people can find
> out how to become a subscriber. I've never been quite clear myself, as I
> think we should be sending you more money for the new edition. I think our
> first one was a trade for the Playford Image CD.
>
> Our best,
>
> Kate (and Bob) Keller
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:51 PM
> Subject: Folk Song Index
>
>
> > A new version of my Folk Song and Broadside Indexes was mailed to
> subscribers yesterday, so if you don't receive it within a week in the UK or
> two weeks in the US, please let me know.
> > I forgot to say, in the accompanying letter about FABLE (you'll understand
> that when you get it), that if anyone wants to send me details of articles
> they have written, especially in non-mainstream folklore publications, I'd
> be pleased to include them in the next version.
> > Steve Roud
> >
> >
> >
> > Signup to supanet at
> https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail
> >
>

To subscribers to my indexes:Rod Stradling has kindly(?) pointed out that the file of data configured for Access on the latest CD-Rom is actually the 2002 edition. Sorry about this.I believe that the other files are OK, so I hope this only affects people using the Access data.Whichever data-set you are using, the way to make sure you are using the current file is to see if it has the right total number of entries:
Folk Song Index = 135467
Broadside Index = 125758As a complete mailing costs me about £75, I won't send a replacement CD-Rom to all subscribers, but will of course send to anyone who needs the Access data.So, for Access users, there are two alternatives:
1) Construct your new file from the comma-delimited (.txt) data, or
2) Email me and I will send you a new CD.Apologies
Steve Roud--Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

I use Access, so please send me whatever is necessary.Thanks much.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of [unmask]
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 7:22 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Folk Song Index problemTo subscribers to my indexes:Rod Stradling has kindly(?) pointed out that the file of data configured for Access on the latest CD-Rom is actually the 2002 edition. Sorry about this.I believe that the other files are OK, so I hope this only affects people using the Access data.Whichever data-set you are using, the way to make sure you are using the current file is to see if it has the right total number of entries:
Folk Song Index = 135467
Broadside Index = 125758As a complete mailing costs me about £75, I won't send a replacement CD-Rom to all subscribers, but will of course send to anyone who needs the Access data.So, for Access users, there are two alternatives:
1) Construct your new file from the comma-delimited (.txt) data, or
2) Email me and I will send you a new CD.Apologies
Steve Roud--Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

At 12:11 PM 5/23/2004, you wrote:>I have to point out the logical flaw with this definition, which is
>that it's useless. If all music is "folk" music, then we don't need
>a term "folk music" -- because we already have the term "music."  Yes, this is related to a problem that intend to broach on one of the
blues lists. It has become fashionable of late to note that our concept of
a blues singer (one who sings blues?) is entirely subjective and
market-driven, for in fact, these blues artists really had monumentally
large repertoires that included pop material, etc., etc.I find this as useless as the above example, for we gain nothing by
renaming blues singers simply "singers" or wide repertoire performers.Not being deeply immersed in the world of ballads and folk music, I have no
idea where terms like folk music, authenticity, and such have actually
landed. (And I'd be happy to find out.)Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

I ordered a couple of promising-looking CDs from the
CDroots.com website. They also have many other
interesting items, so thanks again.CA"...Come to think of it, I can't put my hand on the
info right now, but I'm fairly certain there's another
recording of the Tralalari on the Italian volume of
the Columbia World Library..."
>
> Fred McCormick

On 5/24/04, Paul Garon wrote:[ ... ]>Not being deeply immersed in the world of ballads and folk music, I have no
>idea where terms like folk music, authenticity, and such have actually
>landed. (And I'd be happy to find out.)"Folk" as a term has truly been ruined. People who listen to
acoustic singer-songwriter garbage call it "folk." Since the
initial point of the term was to define songs coming out of
people's personal tradition, then by definition singer-songwriter
is not folk. So "folk" is largely to be avoided."Authenticity" is tough, too, because you can be authentic
without being folk-by-any-definition. :-) I would say that
the most popular term, right now, is "traditional" -- that
is, learned via oral tradition. Even that causes trouble
with bluegrassers, to whom "tradition" is what Bill Monroe
created ex nihilo -- which of course isn't tradition in
a folk sense. But if there is a better term floating around
out there, I don't know what it is.Maybe we need to start talking about "authentic traditional
acoustic orally transmitted folk." Let's see anyone else
try to claim *that*. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Kate:
This sounds immensely useful.  I look forward to seeing the publication.
Do you know of any studies in print of the work of Leonard Deming or
Nathaniel Coverly?  I'm trying to find out more about them.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "Kate Van Winkle Keller" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: Folk Song Index> Thanks for the note, Steve. I have completed the first draft of a study of
> the Isaiah Thomas Broadside COllection at the American Antiquarian Society
> which they plan to publish in the Proceedings and as a stand alone book,
> probably release 2005-6. The book will have images of each broadside plus
> period copies of relevent music settings or referenced tunes. Thomas
bought
> the collection in 1814, so it is unique and a superb historical resource.
>
> I've leaned heavily on your work; referencing your data bases rather than
> outlining all the various places where the 371 different texts appear over
> the years. I hope that this will bring your index to the attention of a
> wider public than just the mainstream folkies. There are a lot of
academics
> who should know about it.
>
> Which brings me to how to cite the index in such a way that people can
find
> out how to become a subscriber. I've never been quite clear myself, as I
> think we should be sending you more money for the new edition. I think our
> first one was a trade for the Playford Image CD.
>
> Our best,
>
> Kate (and Bob) Keller
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 1:51 PM
> Subject: Folk Song Index
>
>
> > A new version of my Folk Song and Broadside Indexes was mailed to
> subscribers yesterday, so if you don't receive it within a week in the UK
or
> two weeks in the US, please let me know.
> > I forgot to say, in the accompanying letter about FABLE (you'll
understand
> that when you get it), that if anyone wants to send me details of articles
> they have written, especially in non-mainstream folklore publications, I'd
> be pleased to include them in the next version.
> > Steve Roud
> >
> >
> >
> > Signup to supanet at
> https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail
> >
>

On 2004/05/24 at 11:46:28AM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> On 5/24/04, Paul Garon wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >Not being deeply immersed in the world of ballads and folk music, I have no
> >idea where terms like folk music, authenticity, and such have actually
> >landed. (And I'd be happy to find out.)        [ ... ]> Maybe we need to start talking about "authentic traditional
> acoustic orally transmitted folk." Let's see anyone else
> try to claim *that*. :-)        ATAOTF?  If people can't pronounce it, they are less likely to
(mis)use it. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----- Original Message -----
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Definitions (Was: Re: Cicadas)" Maybe we need to start talking about "authentic traditional
acoustic orally transmitted folk." Let's see anyone else
try to claim *that*. :-)ATAOTF?  If people can't pronounce it, they are less likely to
 (mis)use it. :-)         Enjoy,
                 DoN.How about N-COTS? (non-commercial orally-transmitted song)?Jon Bartlett

Hi, Dave,
Don't get me involved. I,ve obsessively studied the stuff for 40 years and
my boundaries are still shifting, not always in the same direction. No
definition is totally satisfactory and no other type of music has strictly
defined boundaries so why should ours be any different?
Steve.

How did I miss this site???
Thanks for the pointer!
Simon> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]
> On Behalf Of Cliff Abrams
> Sent: 24 May 2004 17:27
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Trallalero-2
>
>
> I ordered a couple of promising-looking CDs from the
> CDroots.com website. They also have many other
> interesting items, so thanks again.
>

On 5/24/04, Jon Bartlett wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 11:09 AM
>Subject: Re: Definitions (Was: Re: Cicadas)
>
>
>" Maybe we need to start talking about "authentic traditional
>acoustic orally transmitted folk." Let's see anyone else
>try to claim *that*. :-)
>
>ATAOTF?  If people can't pronounce it, they are less likely to
> (mis)use it. :-)
>
>         Enjoy,
>                 DoN.
>
>How about N-COTS? (non-commercial orally-transmitted song)?But then what do you do with the Copper Family, or the Ritchies?
Their material is folk, but they're selling it.And most of these songs had public performances in their history
somewhere.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hear, hear!Besides, what is so wrong with a relative term? I play "Irish
traditional dance music".  That's a 3to 1 ratio of adjectives to noun
and while we can debate what works under the heading "traditional" once
I through that word in no one comes to my session expecting disco dance
music of Dublin.But that still doesn't stop the "obsessively involved" from occasionally
asking if they can sing a Scottish song in an Irish session...after all
it might not be traditional to Ireland...Such agonies over defined and
defining boundaries!Liz in New Hampshire-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Gardham [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 3:00 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Definitions (I don't do long
titles.................................)Hi, Dave,
Don't get me involved. I,ve obsessively studied the stuff for 40 years
and
my boundaries are still shifting, not always in the same direction. No
definition is totally satisfactory and no other type of music has
strictly
defined boundaries so why should ours be any different?
Steve.

Bob Waltz said:>Their material is folk, but they're selling it.The terminological problem is far broader than just the commercial aspect of
song, Bob. What about dance and music? I can't see musicians and dancers (as
distinct from singers) being very happy about "oral" transmission either,
apart perhaps from bagpipers who use cantarach. We don't really seem to have
a word for person-to-person transmission. Yet it's all folk. And before
someone says "ah, but we're talking about folk *song* here" I reject such
separation on the grounds that song, music and dance are inextricably linked
in many (most?) traditions, and all involve the transmission of tradition
from one generation to the next. And all three share the same problem of
"authenticity" (whatever that may mean). Steve Gardham has it right,
regretfully; we can't define folk. It's a bit like the famous elephant joke:
everybody recognises it, but nobody can describe it.
Cheers
Simon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Furey" <[unmask]><<The terminological problem is far broader than just the commercial aspect
of
song, Bob. What about dance and music? I can't see musicians and dancers (as
distinct from singers) being very happy about "oral" transmission either,
apart perhaps from bagpipers who use cantarach. We don't really seem to have
a word for person-to-person transmission. Yet it's all folk. And before
someone says "ah, but we're talking about folk *song* here" I reject such
separation on the grounds that song, music and dance are inextricably linked
in many (most?) traditions, and all involve the transmission of tradition
from one generation to the next. And all three share the same problem of
"authenticity" (whatever that may mean). Steve Gardham has it right,
regretfully; we can't define folk. It's a bit like the famous elephant joke:
everybody recognises it, but nobody can describe it.>>Agreed; I think there's a Heisenbergian aspect here. The closer you examine
the concept of "folk", or for that matter "traditional", the fuzzier it
gets. Labels are sometimes useful in clarifying, sometimes lead to further
confusion. Human endeavours just don't classify cleanly, pace the Dewey
Decimal System.Peace,
Paul

<<No, no, no, no.  Heather IS the car dealer.  I am me.>>Then shut up and deal.Peace,
PaulEd----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:01 am
Subject: Re: The riddle in Driharin O Mo Croi: grammar> What's this about you and a car dealer then Heather?
>
> I think we should be told.
>
> Dave
> www.collectorsfolk.co.uk
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Heather Wood
>  To: [unmask]
>  Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:36 AM
>  Subject: Re: The riddle in Driharin O Mo Croi: grammar
>
>
>  oops. I was wrong (this happens)
>
>  obviously been here too long.
>
>  Yes, one should use the accusative case of the first person singular,
> since it is the object.
>
>  But I was always taught that it is good manners to put oneself last, so
> "the car dealer and me."
>
>  Heather

On 5/25/04, Paul Stamler wrote:>Agreed; I think there's a Heisenbergian aspect here. The closer you examine
>the concept of "folk", or for that matter "traditional", the fuzzier it
>gets. Labels are sometimes useful in clarifying, sometimes lead to further
>confusion. Human endeavours just don't classify cleanly, pace the Dewey
>Decimal System.Let me note that, when I changed the direction of this discussion, I
wasn't crying out for a definition of "folk music," or anything else.
I was simply noting that saying folk music=all music is useless.
Mostly, I agree with the above.But I have to note an important point here: There are times when
we *need* a definition. Most of the arguments here are at least
partly inspired by "this is what I like." That's not a problem;
we can all like anything we want. I like Bach's Little Fugue in
G minor -- but I don't claim it's folk music. :-) Not even if
I play it on the banjo (which I've done, a few times, naturally
transposing to Am to do it. :-).But definitions are necessary in some cases. Should we put the
Bach Fugue in the Ballad Index, e.g.? Of *course* not; it doesn't
have words (let alone a plot), it isn't passed down by tradition,
it isn't even a song. Should we include Barbara Allen? Assuredly
yes. Where does one draw the line? There has to be one; we can't
put a song *partly* in the Index. Nor can one put a song *partly*
in a folk song collection. Defining "folk" music is hopeless --
but failing to define what goes in a particular collection leads
only to confusion.Of course, the basic definition for the Ballad Index is "What
Bob Waltz thinks goes in the Index." :-) But I do have rules:
All songs in certain collections; all songs that appear traditional
in other collections; plus occasional songs that I'm not sure
about but which have achieved sufficient Revival popularity that
I feel they have to be addressed. And, finally, a few songs such
as "Aim Not Too High" which aren't really folk songs in their
own right but which were used as a basis for so many other things
that they are needed as placeholders for all their "Same Tune"
entries. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.