----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Kallen" <[unmask]><<The list of the non-English is almost endless; one would hope that some
anthology covers a good range, but I don't know of any. However I think
it's important not to make it seem like 'American' means 'Anglophone',
since this historically just isn't the case. Whether it's native Americans,
Cajun/Creole, Spanish from Texas and the Southwest or European immigrants
in cities or rural enclaves, these represent an essential ingredient of
American music that needs to be covered. If there was a principle for
selection, I would go for those things that reflect the American condition
especially -- Adolf Hofner's Czech western swing for example, an awful lot
of klezmer music (which not only reflects its transplanted Americanism, but
also influenced so much early 20th century American music -- try listening
to Betty Boop soundtracks!), etc. If it's possible to capture the feeling
of Sunday afternoon radio in a big American city in decades gone by -- with
the 'Greek hour', the 'Polish hour', the 'Irish hour', and so on coming by
in succession, then I think you have presented something of the feel of
20th century non-Anglophone American tradition.>>There was an excellent compilation LP on New World, "Old Country Music in a
New Land"; it would be ideal, except that it hasn't been reissued on CD as
far as Google and I can tell.<<And the religious traditions -- in these secular times, it could be easy
to
forget the jubilee singers, gospel singers, Sacred Harp, and other such
music which has been so important. Without a good dose of old-time
religion, I think a lot would be missing.>>No argument -- there's a good deal of fine material in the Lomax
collections.<<Some albums cross genres and types very nicely: my personal nomination
would be 'The Doc Watson Family' (Xtra 1082 in vinyl; I don't know if it's
been re-issued), which includes secular, religious, ballad, and humour all
on one not very long vinyl disc. A sort of mini compilation, if you will.>>There are two different albums of the Watson family; one was on Folkways,
the other on Rounder. Both have been issued on CD, the Folkways one as an
on-demand CD-R, like all Folkways albums.<<I suppose, too, in these office-bound times, it would be important not to
forget the days when work and song more often went together -- cowboys,
railroad work, sailing on everthing from whalers to canal boats, and so
on.>>Lomax again, and Yazoo for cowboys.Peace,
Paul

FWIW, I don't think you can generalise. Some anthologies have the virtue of
introducing you to new performers, styles, etc. and yet maintain a
coherence that results in a satisfying aesthetic experience. Some
single-performer albums seem to me to have been put together by people with
no aesthetic sense, and reflect only a narrow range of performances, making
the performer seem repetitive and limited (cheapo records do this a lot --
I have one of Lead Belly on some anonymous label which I paid next to
nothing for and which really is a travesty of his legendary abilities.) I
think the main thing is to aim for albums that convey something coherent
yet varied and representative -- and I can think of both compilations and
single-performer albums that meet (or fail) on these criteria.Just a word on this point of Bob's:>Point #2 has to do with religious music. Is this really
>folk music? One thing that has astonished me, in compiling
>the Ballad Index, is that there is very little real
>religious folk music, especially in the White tradition.
>(Even in the Black tradition, much of what there is is
>mixed up with freedom songs -- a related but
>by-no-means-the-same genre.)There's lots of religious music that couldn't be classed as 'ballad', so I
would think it wouldn't be in the ballad index. I think you have a good
case here of music that has some known textual history but which takes on a
life of its own in terms of variation, spread, and community-based
re-interpretation. It's at least as much 'folk' in that sense as any
singer-songwriter. Think 'Amazing Grace' -- yes we know a lot about its
history, but think of how many different ways people have interpreted it,
NOT as idiosyncratic artistry (and therefore not folk in any meaningful
sense), but as part of the elaboration of various cultural traditions. I
think the same goes for shape note singing -- just because there's a book
with words and notes in it to help guide the singing doesn't mean that
oral/aural tradition (and the community that supports it) isn't what makes
the music what it is.(Yes, I suppose you could say, 'it's traditional but is it folk?'. I think
I'd better go now ...)Jeff Kallen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]><<But one more point on anthologies: We have to consider our
listeners, too. How many of *you* prefer to put on an anthology
recording to one comprised entirely of the works of one
performer? When I'm in the mood for (pulling a name from
the air) Ewan MacColl, I *don't* want to get Ewan MacColl,
then Martin Carthy, then Jean Redpath, then back to MacColl,
then the Watersons, then Steeleye Span....>>I think people differ; for long road trips, to take an example, I usually
prefer anthologies, as the variety helps keep me awake. This may be one of
those things where individual tastes rule, as they do with lutefisk and
green peppers.But I don't think Bob's listening preferences, or mine, are necessarily
relevant to the issue at hand. We're both dyed-in-the-wool folk music fans,
we know at least something about the subject, and we're ready to explore a
particular artist in depth. Dick's collection, though, is intended for
newbies, people whose exposure to the world of folk music is likely limited
to "O Brother Where Art Thou". For those folks, I think anthologies offer an
invaluable resource, in that they throw all kinds of things at you one after
another. They're about breadth rather than depth, and I think that's the
appropriate tool here. When the library decides to fund the 200-disc
edition, that's the time to include more single-artist albums.<<Point #2 has to do with religious music. Is this really
folk music? One thing that has astonished me, in compiling
the Ballad Index, is that there is very little real
religious folk music, especially in the White tradition.[snip and paste]At first I thought this was collectors' bias. But if one
looks at collections like Randolph's that don't have
collectors' bias, the point remains. Many of Randolph's
informants sang religious songs -- but they were clearly
straight out of hymn books. It may be "folk" music in the
sense that people are singing it, but it's really not
folk music in the sense that it's getting handed down
from generation to generation. If one is seeking religious
songs, one should take great care with this.>>Good point; it opens up the whole can'o'worms that broadsides raise: to what
extent a song that has been frozen on paper becomes, or remains, folk. But I
think it's fair to call Sacred Harp a "folk tradition", even if most of the
songs sung don't qualify as "folk songs". And certainly the Black tradition
contains a great deal of folk material; the older spirituals, in particular,
are folk songs in every sense of the words.<<(Even in the Black tradition, much of what there is is mixed up with
freedom songs -- a related but by-no-means-the-same genre.)>>Only in the last fifty-some years, and a lot of the mixing-up came from
white folkies, who learned the freedom song first, and the spiritual on
which it was based afterwards, just like we learned "Union Maid" years
before we ever heard "Red Wing".Peace,
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]><<I don't know about the rest of the world. How many like
anthologies, as opposed to works by single performers?
I do think this is something that should be taken into
account in choosing albums. I would observe, though, that
even in the "historical" department at the local folk
music store, the vast majority of the albums are
of single performers. There are theme anthologies (mostly
from County, on the Old-Time side; there isn't much at
all in the British Isles section), but they are few. That
seems to indicate that, for once, I'm *not* in a minority
(horrors).>>I think this may reflect the tastes of the proprietors, and also their
perception of their customers (mostly folkies already, not mostly newbies).
Look at a well-stocked Borders: anthologies aplenty. (Keep in mind that
almost all of the Lomax reissues are anthologies, and all of the Library of
Congress recordings except the Hammons Family set.)Perhaps, in some respects, I'm harking back to my own musical education,
where the most important influences were "Folk Music USA" (the 2-LP Folkways
set), "The Real Bahamas" (Nonesuch), and "Negro Religious Songs and
Services" (Library of Congress). Somewhat later, the Harry Smith Anthology.
Each started an exploration.Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

If any of you have or have access to Dave Marsh's book "The Heart of
Rock & Soul" take the time to read his introduction. While the specifics
vary from our conversation the problems of selection and inclusion are
similar and his conclusions quite interesting.Paul Stamler wrote:>I think people differ; for long road trips, to take an example, I usually
>prefer anthologies, as the variety helps keep me awake. This may be one of
>those things where individual tastes rule, as they do with lutefisk and
>green peppers.
>
>But I don't think Bob's listening preferences, or mine, are necessarily
>relevant to the issue at hand. We're both dyed-in-the-wool folk music fans,
>we know at least something about the subject, and we're ready to explore a
>particular artist in depth. Dick's collection, though, is intended for
>newbies, people whose exposure to the world of folk music is likely limited
>to "O Brother Where Art Thou". For those folks, I think anthologies offer an
>invaluable resource, in that they throw all kinds of things at you one after
>another. They're about breadth rather than depth, and I think that's the
>appropriate tool here. When the library decides to fund the 200-disc
>edition, that's the time to include more single-artist albums.
>

Whilst the BPB may not have been affected by the Scots Poet's Boxes there
is an enormous amount of Irish material in the GPB as one would expect
with such a large 19thc Irish migrant population in Glasgow.
SteveG

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On 5/31/04, Jeffrey Kallen wrote:[ ... ]>Just a word on this point of Bob's:
>
>>Point #2 has to do with religious music. Is this really
>>folk music? One thing that has astonished me, in compiling
>>the Ballad Index, is that there is very little real
>>religious folk music, especially in the White tradition.
>>(Even in the Black tradition, much of what there is is
>>mixed up with freedom songs -- a related but
>>by-no-means-the-same genre.)
>
>There's lots of religious music that couldn't be classed as 'ballad', so I
>would think it wouldn't be in the ballad index. I think you have a good
>case here of music that has some known textual history but which takes on a
>life of its own in terms of variation, spread, and community-based
>re-interpretation. It's at least as much 'folk' in that sense as any
>singer-songwriter. Think 'Amazing Grace' -- yes we know a lot about its
>history, but think of how many different ways people have interpreted it,
>NOT as idiosyncratic artistry (and therefore not folk in any meaningful
>sense), but as part of the elaboration of various cultural traditions. I
>think the same goes for shape note singing -- just because there's a book
>with words and notes in it to help guide the singing doesn't mean that
>oral/aural tradition (and the community that supports it) isn't what makes
>the music what it is.This largely misses the point I was making. The Ballad Index does
not restrict itself to ballads; it's a Folk Music Index -- by the
votes of the members of this list. All those songs in Randolph
went into the Index, because they're in Randolph and found in a
standard song reference.But they are almost all clearly derived either from hymnals or
camp meetings, and taken from a standard source. The whole point
is that there is no evidence that they are going into tradition.Is that folk? Maybe, under the loose definitions we're using.
But it doesn't *lead* anywhere. I don't know how to include
that meaningfully in any collection.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I recall John Faulkner singing the song, on record, and I have heard Frank Harte sing it in also.  A chapbook published by Macnie in Glasgow in, I believe, 1825  or 1826 contains interesting variant words. Here are Macnie's words:1. I am a daring highwayman;, My name is Tine of O'Harrow.
I'm come of poor, but honest folks, Nigh to the hills of Tarrow.
For getting of a maid with child, To England I sailed over.
Leaving my parents almost wild, Since I became a rover.2. Then straight to London I did go, Where I became a soldier
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes. Great Hector ne'er was bolder.
They sent me to a foreign coast, Where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast, How I behaved in battle.3. For many's the battle that I've been in, In Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen, Led on by brave commanders.
I always fought with a courage keen and aye was valiant hearted,
On account of the usage that I got, Alas! I soon deserted.4. Then straight to England I set sail, As fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty, No man should e're deprive me.
I slept into the fields all night, For fear of being detected,
I could not walk the roads by day, Lest I should be suspected.5. I being of a courage keen, and likewise able-bodied,
To stand the road was my intent, with my pistols heavy loaded.
To rob upon the king's highway was my determination,
And for a robbery I was bent, no other hesitation.6.The very first man that ever I robbed He was a Lord of Honor.
I own this man I did assault all in a roguish manner.
Says I, my Lord, your gold I want,Make no delay, but give it;
For if you don't, tis  my intent by powder and ball to have it."7. I clapt my pistol to his breast, which made him for to shiver.
Five hundred pounds in ready gold, to me he did surrender.
His gold repeater watch likewise to me he did deliver.
I thought it a most gallant prize when he this gold did tender.8. With part of this same money I got, I bought a famous gelding,
That over a five-barred gate could jump. I bought him from Mr. Fielding.
When I was mounted on my steed, I looked most bold and daring.
Then to the road I set with speed, no man I now was fearing.9. That night, I robbed Lord Arkinstone, Nigh into Covent Garden,
And two or three hours after that, I robb'd the Earl of Warren.
Through streets, broad-streets, and lanes also, I robb'd Lords, Dukes and
Earls,
Myself in grandeur to maintain and to support my girls.!0. I never robb'd a poor man in my life, But those of high character,
I robb'd nigh unto Turnham green A revenue collector.
Five hundred pounds I took from him And smiling it was ready,
A hundred guineas of bright gold I did return his lady.11. Whenever I saw the distressed poor, when poverty did grieve them,
I always found my heart inclin'd By money to relieve them.
I laid upon the rich and great. To rob the poor I scorned,
Unless that God prevents my fate In doom I now lie borned.12. For straight in Newgate I'm confined, and by the law convicted.
Tyburn Tree proves my destiny, at which I am much afflrighted,
Farewell my home and countrymen, and the ancient hills of Tarrow,
Kind providence may rest the soul of Allan Tine O'Harrow.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 1/1/1988 9:55:07 AM >>>
On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:12:11 -0700, Cliff Abrams wrote:>Any resources for words, music, abc for Tyne of
>Harrow-- a version, i guess, of Newry Highwayman?My own file, with comments from people here.  As to tune, Dick will sell
you: Bellamy, Peter - Wake the Vaulted Echoes, Free Reed - CD, 1999 or Mr
Bellamy, Mr Kipling & the Tradition, Fellside-2CD, 2001 (1982+).  I don't
know how valid it is but it sure sings well.  Or possibly an older tune:
MacColl, Ewan - Solo Flight, Topic - CD, 2000 (was Argo LP 1972.  No tune
source given on the CD).                   ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
              (Valentine O'harra in Ireland)
As sung by Peter Bellemy, who got it from Ewan MacColl, who got it from
"an 18th cent. broadside.")1. I am a gallant highwayman;, My name is Tyne of Harrow.
I come from poor, but honest folks, Nigh to the hills of Yarrow.
'Twas the getting of a maid with child, To England I sailed over.
I left my parents and became, A wild and daring rover.2. And straight to London I did go, Where I became a soldier
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes. No sergeant-at-arms was bolder.
They sent me to a foreign land, Where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast, How I behaved in battle.3. For many's the battle I was in, In Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen, Led on by brave commanders.
But a cruel ensign called me out, And I was flogged and carted.
Cruel the usage they gave me, And so I soon deserted.4. And straight to England I set sail, As fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty, No man should e're relieve me.
I slept by night in open fields, By all old friends forsaken.
I dared not to walk the roads by day, For fear I should be taken.5. But being of a courage keen, And likewise able bodied,
I robbed Lord Lowndes on the King's highway, With my pistols heavy loaded.
I clapped my pistols to his breast, Which caused him for to quiver.
And five hundred pound in ready gold, To me he did deliver.6. With part of my new store of gold, I bought a famous gelding
That could jump o'er a five-bar gate, I bought it from Ned Fielding.
Lord Arkinstone into his coach, I robbed at Covent Garden,
And two hours later that same night, I robbed the Earl of Warren.7. One night at Turnham Green I robbed, A revenue collector,
And what I got from him I gave, To a widow to protect her.
For I always robbed the rich and great. For to rob the poor I scorn-ed,
But now they lead me to my fate, In iron chains adorn-ed.8. Yes it's straight to Newgate I am bound, And by the law indicted,
To hang on Tyburn tree's my fate, Of which I'm much affrighted.
Farewell, my friends and countrymen, And my native hills of Yarrow;
Kind providence will test the soul, Of Allan Tyne of Harrow.The five bar gate was the gates that replaced the turn pike turnstyles of
the turnpikes after they would be often jumped by highwaymen. There is a
great etching of Dick Turpin leeping a five bar gate on his mare, Black
BessFrom: John Moulden,  Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:29 PMSorry to throw a spanner but there was an Irish Valentine O'Hara - I'm
virtually certain, I have a newspaper reference to his execution -
sometime I think in 1800Earliest broadside in Bodley Ballads is "Valentine O'Harra" c.1850From: Jim Dixon, Date: 17 Jun 03 - 12:43 AMTranscribed by me from the broadside images at Bodleian Library Broadside
Ballads, with spelling and punctuation somewhat modernized. The three
versions there--Harding B 11(2471), Harding B 11(3963), and Firth
b.34(4a)--are almost identical. Where I found a significant difference, I
have indicated the alternative word or phrase in brackets.VALENTINE O'HARAI am a daring highwayman. They call me Valentine O'Hara.
I came of honest decent friends nigh to the Hills of Tara.
For seducing of a pretty maid, to England I sailed over,
Leaving my parents almost wild since I became a rover.To London City I did go, where I became a soldier,
Resolved to fight 'gainst Britain's foes. Great Hector ne'er was bolder.
They sent me to a foreign coast where cannons did loudly rattle.
Believe me, sir, I do not boast, for I well behaved in battle.Many battles I have been in through Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with courage keen, led on by brave commanders.
Brave and undaunted I behaved, I being valiant-hearted.
For the base usage I received, alas! I have deserted.To old England I then sailed as quick as the wind could drive me,
Resolvèd on my liberty no man should e'er deprive me,
When I arrived on English shore and found my name [or "myself"] gazetted,
At which my heart was grieved full sore, and thereat was much fretted.How to behave I did not know, being void of friends and money.
Desertion caused it to be so, and brought destruction on me.
In open fields I lay all night, lest I should be suspected,
Nor dare not travel in daylight for fear I'd be detected.I being resolute and bold, likewise able-bodied,
To stand the road I did resolve, with pistols heavy loaded.
To rob upon the king's highway was my determination,
Then to the road without delay, no further hesitation.The very first I ever robbed was a great Lord of Honor.
That nobleman I did assault all in a roguish manner.
I said, "My lord, I demand your coin. Make no delay, but give it;
Or if you don't, it's my design by powder and ball to have it."I cocked my pistol to his breast, which causèd him to shiver.
Three hundred guineas, I protest, to me he did deliver.
His gold repeater watch likewise to me he did surrender.
I thought it was a gallant prize when he the gold did tender.With part of the money, I purchased a famous gelding,
Over a five-barred gate would leap. I bought of Mr. Shelding.
When mounted on my flying steed, I looked both bold and daring.
When to the road I went with speed, for I no man was fearing.One night, I robbed Lord Edgers not far from Covent Garden,
And in three hours after that, I stopped Attorney Harding.
Balls, and plays, streets, roads, and lanes, I robbed both Dukes and
Earls,
Myself in grandeur [or "splendor"] to maintain and to support my [or
"the"] girls.When I met the distressed poor, when poverty did grieve them,
I always was myself inclined with money to relieve them.
I laid upon the rich and great. To rob the poor I scorn.
Alas! That won't prevent my fate this day at old Tyburn.Here in Newgate close confined, I am by law convicted.
Tyburn Tree I am destined, where I am much afflicted.
Adieu, my country and my friends, and the ancient hills of Tara!
Kind providence may rest the soul of Valentine O'Hara.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtmlLewis Becker
Professor of Law
Villanova University School of Law
(610.519.7074)
(Fax - 610.519.5672)

On doublechecking, I see that Macnie, the printer in my prior email, was in Stirling. Sorry for the mistake.Lew>>> [unmask] 1/1/1988 9:55:07 AM >>>
On Sun, 30 May 2004 21:12:11 -0700, Cliff Abrams wrote:>Any resources for words, music, abc for Tyne of
>Harrow-- a version, i guess, of Newry Highwayman?My own file, with comments from people here.  As to tune, Dick will sell
you: Bellamy, Peter - Wake the Vaulted Echoes, Free Reed - CD, 1999 or Mr
Bellamy, Mr Kipling & the Tradition, Fellside-2CD, 2001 (1982+).  I don't
know how valid it is but it sure sings well.  Or possibly an older tune:
MacColl, Ewan - Solo Flight, Topic - CD, 2000 (was Argo LP 1972.  No tune
source given on the CD).                   ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
              (Valentine O'harra in Ireland)
As sung by Peter Bellemy, who got it from Ewan MacColl, who got it from
"an 18th cent. broadside.")1. I am a gallant highwayman;, My name is Tyne of Harrow.
I come from poor, but honest folks, Nigh to the hills of Yarrow.
'Twas the getting of a maid with child, To England I sailed over.
I left my parents and became, A wild and daring rover.2. And straight to London I did go, Where I became a soldier
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes. No sergeant-at-arms was bolder.
They sent me to a foreign land, Where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast, How I behaved in battle.3. For many's the battle I was in, In Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen, Led on by brave commanders.
But a cruel ensign called me out, And I was flogged and carted.
Cruel the usage they gave me, And so I soon deserted.4. And straight to England I set sail, As fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty, No man should e're relieve me.
I slept by night in open fields, By all old friends forsaken.
I dared not to walk the roads by day, For fear I should be taken.5. But being of a courage keen, And likewise able bodied,
I robbed Lord Lowndes on the King's highway, With my pistols heavy loaded.
I clapped my pistols to his breast, Which caused him for to quiver.
And five hundred pound in ready gold, To me he did deliver.6. With part of my new store of gold, I bought a famous gelding
That could jump o'er a five-bar gate, I bought it from Ned Fielding.
Lord Arkinstone into his coach, I robbed at Covent Garden,
And two hours later that same night, I robbed the Earl of Warren.7. One night at Turnham Green I robbed, A revenue collector,
And what I got from him I gave, To a widow to protect her.
For I always robbed the rich and great. For to rob the poor I scorn-ed,
But now they lead me to my fate, In iron chains adorn-ed.8. Yes it's straight to Newgate I am bound, And by the law indicted,
To hang on Tyburn tree's my fate, Of which I'm much affrighted.
Farewell, my friends and countrymen, And my native hills of Yarrow;
Kind providence will test the soul, Of Allan Tyne of Harrow.The five bar gate was the gates that replaced the turn pike turnstyles of
the turnpikes after they would be often jumped by highwaymen. There is a
great etching of Dick Turpin leeping a five bar gate on his mare, Black
BessFrom: John Moulden,  Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:29 PMSorry to throw a spanner but there was an Irish Valentine O'Hara - I'm
virtually certain, I have a newspaper reference to his execution -
sometime I think in 1800Earliest broadside in Bodley Ballads is "Valentine O'Harra" c.1850From: Jim Dixon, Date: 17 Jun 03 - 12:43 AMTranscribed by me from the broadside images at Bodleian Library Broadside
Ballads, with spelling and punctuation somewhat modernized. The three
versions there--Harding B 11(2471), Harding B 11(3963), and Firth
b.34(4a)--are almost identical. Where I found a significant difference, I
have indicated the alternative word or phrase in brackets.VALENTINE O'HARAI am a daring highwayman. They call me Valentine O'Hara.
I came of honest decent friends nigh to the Hills of Tara.
For seducing of a pretty maid, to England I sailed over,
Leaving my parents almost wild since I became a rover.To London City I did go, where I became a soldier,
Resolved to fight 'gainst Britain's foes. Great Hector ne'er was bolder.
They sent me to a foreign coast where cannons did loudly rattle.
Believe me, sir, I do not boast, for I well behaved in battle.Many battles I have been in through Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with courage keen, led on by brave commanders.
Brave and undaunted I behaved, I being valiant-hearted.
For the base usage I received, alas! I have deserted.To old England I then sailed as quick as the wind could drive me,
Resolvèd on my liberty no man should e'er deprive me,
When I arrived on English shore and found my name [or "myself"] gazetted,
At which my heart was grieved full sore, and thereat was much fretted.How to behave I did not know, being void of friends and money.
Desertion caused it to be so, and brought destruction on me.
In open fields I lay all night, lest I should be suspected,
Nor dare not travel in daylight for fear I'd be detected.I being resolute and bold, likewise able-bodied,
To stand the road I did resolve, with pistols heavy loaded.
To rob upon the king's highway was my determination,
Then to the road without delay, no further hesitation.The very first I ever robbed was a great Lord of Honor.
That nobleman I did assault all in a roguish manner.
I said, "My lord, I demand your coin. Make no delay, but give it;
Or if you don't, it's my design by powder and ball to have it."I cocked my pistol to his breast, which causèd him to shiver.
Three hundred guineas, I protest, to me he did deliver.
His gold repeater watch likewise to me he did surrender.
I thought it was a gallant prize when he the gold did tender.With part of the money, I purchased a famous gelding,
Over a five-barred gate would leap. I bought of Mr. Shelding.
When mounted on my flying steed, I looked both bold and daring.
When to the road I went with speed, for I no man was fearing.One night, I robbed Lord Edgers not far from Covent Garden,
And in three hours after that, I stopped Attorney Harding.
Balls, and plays, streets, roads, and lanes, I robbed both Dukes and
Earls,
Myself in grandeur [or "splendor"] to maintain and to support my [or
"the"] girls.When I met the distressed poor, when poverty did grieve them,
I always was myself inclined with money to relieve them.
I laid upon the rich and great. To rob the poor I scorn.
Alas! That won't prevent my fate this day at old Tyburn.Here in Newgate close confined, I am by law convicted.
Tyburn Tree I am destined, where I am much afflicted.
Adieu, my country and my friends, and the ancient hills of Tara!
Kind providence may rest the soul of Valentine O'Hara.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtmlLewis Becker
Professor of Law
Villanova University School of Law
(610.519.7074)
(Fax - 610.519.5672)

I didn't point out that I had omitted Bob Dylan from my list, after a
good bit of agonizing. I became convinced when my daughter (age 42)
pointed out that Dylan didn't get anybody into folk music--he got a lot
of folkies into rock.

Jim and John,Many thanks for the words (and the second version).
I'll look for those CDs.CA

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

> Bob Waltz wrote:<snips>
> But they are almost all clearly derived either from hymnals or
> camp meetings, and taken from a standard source. The whole point
> is that there is no evidence that they are going into tradition.
>
> Is that folk? Maybe, under the loose definitions we're using.
> But it doesn't *lead* anywhere. I don't know how to include
> that meaningfully in any collection.I think I would have to gently object.  For one thing, the "folk content" is
simply at the other end: pace George Pullen Jackson, most of the shape note
hymns are derived from folk melodies.  Similarly, the harmonies of the
Louvin Brothers or Ralph Stanley would be very different without their early
immersion in the Sacred Harp harmony lines.Dave Gardner (just back from the Midwest Singing in CHicago)

A bit outside the ballad field but one or more of you may be able to help.I was told that noted record producer John R. T. Davis passed away
recently but have been unable to find any confirmation.Has anyone seen an obituary?

Folks:I concur with David's observations.  It really is impossible to separate the hymnal (shape and otherwise) tradition from Anglo-American MELODIC traditions.  The same holds true for bawdy songs -- about which I know a lot less than I do of the sacred.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathy Kaiser <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, May 31, 2004 7:23 pm
Subject: Re: Comments on "Suggestions"> > Bob Waltz wrote:
>
> <snips>
> > But they are almost all clearly derived either from hymnals or
> > camp meetings, and taken from a standard source. The whole point
> > is that there is no evidence that they are going into tradition.
> >
> > Is that folk? Maybe, under the loose definitions we're using.
> > But it doesn't *lead* anywhere. I don't know how to include
> > that meaningfully in any collection.
>
> I think I would have to gently object.  For one thing, the "folk content" is
> simply at the other end: pace George Pullen Jackson, most of the shape note
> hymns are derived from folk melodies.  Similarly, the harmonies of the
> Louvin Brothers or Ralph Stanley would be very different without their early
> immersion in the Sacred Harp harmony lines.
>
> Dave Gardner (just back from the Midwest Singing in CHicago)
>

Hi!        We have a short list after a long weekend. ;-)        SONGSTERS        2247012569 - MERCHANT'S GARGLING OIL SONGSTER, 1889, $4.99 (ends
Jun-01-04 18:13:46 PDT)        6900718742 - Forget Me Not Songster, 1850?, $1 (ends Jun-02-04
18:00:00 PDT)        6901344312 - The Prohibition Songster, 1884, $9.90 (ends
Jun-02-04 18:10:44 PDT)        6901391719 - Up To Date Songster, 1901, $3.25 (ends Jun-02-04
21:46:29 PDT)        6901932199 - The Gem Songster, 1892, $4.99 (ends Jun-05-04
10:23:51 PDT)        6902287387 - THE UNIVERSAL SONGSTER, 3 volumes, $9.95 (ends
Jun-06-04 20:03:07 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        6901092625 - Far from the Shamrock Shore by Moloney, 2002, $9.95
(ends Jun-01-04 18:41:21 PDT)        6901208172 - Cabins in the Laurel by Sheppard, 1946, $8 (ends
Jun-02-04 09:11:11 PDT)        6901500498 - Folk Songs of Northumberland by Polwarth, 1967, $4
(ends Jun-03-04 10:48:18 PDT)        3727066474 - 6 books inc. IRISH COUNTRY SONGS by Hughes, vol. 1,
1909, $7.50 (ends Jun-03-04 17:04:42 PDT)        6901616618 - The Frank C. Brown Collection of North Carolina
Folklore, 7 volumes, 1952-1964, $24.99 (ends Jun-03-04 18:44:59 PDT)        6902042209 - The National Road In Song And Story, 1940, $11.52
Jun-05-04 21:30:00 PDT)        3727518224 - Songs of the Midlands by Palmer, 1972, 4.99 GBP
(ends Jun-06-04 12:25:22 PDT)        6901604928 - Steamboatin' Days Folk Songs of the River Packet Era
by Wheeler, 1944, $68 (ends Jun-06-04 17:53:20 PDT)        6901614355 - A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF NORTH AMERICAN FOLKLORE AND FOLKSONG
by Haywood, 2 volumes, 1961 Dover edition, $6.99 (ends Jun-06-04 18:35:07
PDT)        6902272337 - BALLADS and FOLK SONGS of the SOUTHWEST by Moore,
1964, $19.99 (ends Jun-06-04 19:02:02 PDT)        6902438805 - Gems of SCOTTISH SONG, 1866, $9.99 (ends Jun-07-04
11:31:01 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Fred,
That's most kind of you. In fact it's a very interesting and well done site
with lots of interesting links. Incidentally, it's not all in (Castilian)
Spanish - it's a multilingual site using several of the Iberian languages!
BTW, my e-mail address is [unmask] for you and anyone else
who needs it.
Cheers and many thanks.
Simon-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On Behalf Of
Fred McCormick
Sent: 01 May 2004 17:07
To: [unmask]
Subject: World of the castanetsThis message is for Simon Furey. My apologies for posting it to the list,
but I can't find his email address. Anyway:-Simon, I've just had an email from somebody in Spain advising me of a site
called El Mundo de Las Castañuelas at www.spolo.jazztel.es . The message
gave me no more than the address, but I've had a look and the site really
exists. No viruses or hoaxes or any other form of nasty. However, it's all
in Spanish, which may be the loving tongue, but that doesn't mean I can
speak it.I think I recall that you have an interest in Spanish music, so I thought
I'd pass the information on to you.Cheers,Fred McCormick.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Greetings, all:
     I find I have a need for the track listings of
the MacColl/Seeger Argo series, "The Long Harvest." I
hope  that one of you can provide me with the same
without too much pure agony. I sure wish they'd come
up with that series on CD!
     Sandy Paton

Herewith:                LONG HARVEST I: SIDE A                                1.                Twa Sisters (Child 10)                                                a.                Minorie                                                b.                The Swan
Swims Sae Bonnie                                                c.                There Was
an Old Lord                                                d.                Peter and
I                                2.                The Cruel Mother (Child
20)                                                a.                The Cruel
Mother                                                b.                The Cruel
Mother                                                c.                Down by
the Greenwood Sidey-O                                                d.                The Lady
from Lee (Leigh)                                                e.                The Cruel
Mother                LONG HARVEST I: SIDE B                                3.                Lord Randal (Child 12)                                                a.                Lord
Randal                                                b.                 Jimmy
Randal                                                c.                Henry My
Son                                                d.                Willie Doo                                                e.                Croodin
Doo                                                f.                Billy Boy                                4.                The Baffled Knight (Child
112)                                                a.                The
Shepherd Lad                                b.                Clear Away the Morning Dew                                                c.                Katie
Morey                LONG HARVEST 2: SIDE A                                5.                Riddles Wisely Expounded
(Child 1)                                                a.                Riddles
Wisely expounded                                                b.                The Devil'
s Nine Questions                                6.                The Elfin Knight (Child 2)                                                a.                The Elfin
Knight                                                b.                O, Say Do
You Know the Way to Selin?                                                c.
Scarborough Fair                                                d.                The Elfin
Knight                                                e.                The
Cambric Shirt                                                f.                My Father
Had an Acre of Land                                7.                The Daemon Lover (Child
243)                                                a.                The Daemon
Lover                                                b.                The House
Carpenter                                                c.                The House
Carpenter                                                d.                Well Met,
Well Met                LONG HARVEST II: SIDE B                                8.                The Dreadful Ghost                                                a.                The
Dreadful Ghost                                9.                The Gosport Tragedy                                                a.                The Ghost
Ship                                                b.                Pretty
Polly                LONG HARVEST III: SIDE A                                10.                Our Goodman (Child 274)                                                a.                Our
Goodman                                                b.                Five
Nights Drunk                                11.                Lamkin (Child 93)                                                a.                Lamkin                                                b.                Lammikin                                12.                The Gypsy Laddie (Child
200)                                                a.                The Gypsy
Laddie                                                b.                Black Jack
Davy                                                c.                The
Heartless Lady                                                d.                Harrison
Brady                LONG HARVEST III: SIDE B                                13.                The Broomfield Hill
(Child 43)                                                a.                The
Broomfield Hill                                                b.                The Maid
on the Shore                                14.                The Grey Cock (Child 248)                                                a.                The Lover'
s Ghost                                                b.                The Grey
Cock                                                c.                I'm a
Rover                                                d.                Here's a
Health to All True Lovers                                                e.                Lover in
the Night                LONG HARVEST IV: SIDE A                                15.                Bonnie Barbara Allen
(Child 84)                                                a.                Bawbee
Allan                                                b.                Barbry
Ellen                                                c.                Barbry
Allan                                16.                Sir Lionel (Child 18)                                                a.                Sir
Eglamore                                                b.                Wild Board                                                c.                Old Bangum                                                d.                Ole Bangum                LONG HARVEST IV: SIDE B                                17.                The Lass of Roch Royal
(child 76)                                                a.                Lord
Gregory                                                b.                Lass of
Roch Royal                                                c.                Georgie
Jeems                                                d.                Who Will
Shoe Your Pretty Little Foot?                                18.                The Knight and the
Shepherd's Daughter (Child 110)                                                a.                The Knight
and the Shepherd's Daughter                                                b.                The Knight
and the Shepherd's Daughter                LONG HARVEST V: SIDE A                                19.                The Crafty Farmer (Child
283)                                                a.                The Crafty
farmer                                                b.                Well Sold
the Cow                                                c.                The
Highwayman                                                d.                The
Highwayman Outwitted                                                e.                The Fair
Damsel from London                                20.                The Wife of Usher's Well
(Child 79)                                                a.                The Wife
of Usher's Well                                                b.                The Three
Babes                LONG HARVEST V: SIDE B                                21.                Lord Lovel (Child 75)                                                a.                Lord
Lovell                                                b.                Lord Lover                                                c.                Abe
Lincoln Stood at the White House Gate                                                d.                The New
Ballad of Lord Lovel                                22.                Sir Hugh (The Jew's
Daughter)(Child 155)                                                a.                Sir Hugh,
or the Jew's Daughter                                                b.                The Fatal
Flower Garden                                                c.                Little
Saloo                                                d.                It Rained
a Mist                                23.                Babylon (Child 14)                                                a.                The Burly,
Burly banks of Barbree-O                                                b.                The Bonnie
Banks of Airdrie-O                LONG HARVEST VI: SIDE A                                24.                Lady Isabel and the Elf
Knight (Child 4)                                                a.                May Colvin                                                b.                Lady
Isabel and the Elf Knight                                                c.                The
Outlandish Knight                                                d.                Billy Came
Over the Main White Ocean                                                e.                The Willow
Tree                                25.                The Old Woman of
Slapsadam/Johnny Sands                                                a.                The Wife
of Kelso                                                b.                Rich Old
Lady                                                c.                Johnny
Sands                LONG HARVEST VI: SIDE B                                26.                The Douglas Tragedy/Earl
Brand (Child 7)                                                a.                The Brave
Earl Brand and the King of England's Daughter                                                b.                The
Douglas Tragedy                                                c.                Earl Brand                                                d.                The Lady
and the Dragoon                                27.                The Maid Freed from the
Gallows (Child 95)                                                a.                The
Prickle Holly Bush                                                b.                Hangman                LONG HARVEST VII: SIDE A                                28.                Clerk Colvill (Child 42)
and Lady Alice (Child 85)                                                a.                George
Collins                                                b.                Young
Collins                                                c.                Clerk
Colven                                                d.                Giles
Collins                                                e.                The Dying
Hobo                                29.                Willie o' Winsbury (Child
100)                                                a.                Lord
Thomas of Winesberrie                                                b.                John
Barbour                LONG HARVEST VII: SIDE B                                30.                The Three Ravens (Child
26)                                                a.                The Three
Ravens                                                b.                The Three
Ravens                                                c.                The Twa
Corbies                                                d.                The Crow
Song                                                e.                The Three
Crows                                                f.                The Three
Ravens                                                g.                Poor Old
Crow                                                h.                Blow the
Man Down                                31.                Sir Patrick Spens (Child
58)                                                a.                Sir
Patrick Spens                                                b.                Sir
Patrick SpenceLONG HARVEST VIII: SIDE A                                32.                Young Beichan (Child 53)                                                a.                Young
Beichan                                                b.                Lord
Bateman                                                c.                Turkish
Rover                                33.                The Cherry-Tree Carol
(Child 54)                                                a..                The
Cherry Tree Carol                                                b.                Sweet Mary
and Sweet Joseph                                                c.                Joseph and
Mary                LONG HARVEST VIII: SIDE B                                34.                Lizie Wan (Child 51) and
Edward (Child 13)                                                a.                Lucy Wan                                                b.                Fair Lucy                                                c.                What
Brought the Blood Upon Your Right Shoulder, Dear?                                                d.                Edward                                35.                The Frog's Courtship                                                a.                The Puddy
in the Well                                                b.                King Kong
Kitchie                                                c.                There was
an Old Frog                                                d.                Froggie
Went A-Courting                LONG HARVEST IX: SIDE A                                36.                The False Knight Upon the
Road (Child 3)                                                a.                The False
Knight and the Wee Boy                                                b.                The False
Knight Upon the Road                                                c.                The False
Fidee                                                d.                False
Knight Upon the Road                                37.      The Braes of Yarrow (Child 214) and
Rare Willie Drowned in Yarrow (Child 215)                                                a.                The Dowie
Dens of Yarrow                                                b.                The Dewy
Dens of Yarrow                                                c.                Yarrow                                                d.                Willie's
Rae and Willie's Fair                                                e.                The Braes
of Yarrow                LONG HARVEST IX: SIDE B                                38.                The Wife Wrapt in Wether'
s Skin (Child 277)                                                a.                The Wife
in the Wether's Skin                                                b.                The
Daughter of Peggy, O                                                c.                Gentle
Fair Jenny                                                d.                Rissolty
Rossolty                                39.                The Death of Queen Jane
(Child 170)                                                a.                Queen Jane                                                b.                The Death
of Queen Janec.                Jane Was a Neighbour                                                d.                Queen Jean                                                e.                Poor Sally                                                f.                Six Lords
Went a-Hunting                                                g.                Two Dukes                LONG HARVEST X: SIDE A                                40.                The Trooper and the Maid
(Child 299)                                                a.                The
Trooper and the Maid                                                b.                A Soldier
Travelling From the North                                                c.                Trooper
and the Maid                                41.                Betsy                                                a.                Betsy                                                b.                The Brewer
's Daughter                                42.                The Keach in the Creel
(Child 281)                                                a.                The Keach
in the Creel                                                b.                The Little
Scotch Girl                LONG HARVEST X: SIDE B                                43.                Lord Thomas and Fair
Annet (Child 73) and                                                Fair Margaret and Sweet
William (Child 74)                                                a.                Lord
Thomas and Fair Annie                                                b.                Little
Marget                                                c.                Sweet
Willie and Fair Annie                                                d.                Lady
Margaret                                44.                The Lowlands of Holland
(Child 92 [Appendix]                                                a.                Lowlands
of Holland                                                b.                The
Lowlands of Holland                                                c.                The
Lowlands of HollandEnjoy! Jon Bartlett----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandy Paton" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 4:53 PM
Subject: The Long Harvest track listing?> Greetings, all:
>      I find I have a need for the track listings of
> the MacColl/Seeger Argo series, "The Long Harvest." I
> hope  that one of you can provide me with the same
> without too much pure agony. I sure wish they'd come
> up with that series on CD!
>      Sandy Paton
>

My thanks to Jon Bartlett! Now I can get some sleep
tonight.
     Sandy--- Jon Bartlett <[unmask]> wrote:
> Herewith:
>
>                 LONG HARVEST I: SIDE A

Hi!        Here I am again. The list is shorter than usual. Spring doesn't
seem to be a big bookselling season.        SONGSTERS        2242422328 - Rival Songster, 1887, $30 (ends May-05-04 18:42:45 PDT)        3721804652 - Vocal Music or the Songster`s Companion, 1790?,
10 GBP (ends May-11-04 23:18:36 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        4208687907 -  SONGS OF THE SEA AND SAILORS' CHANTEY'S by
Frothingham, 1924, $9.95 (ends May-04-04 06:46:03 PDT) also 4209105813 -
$7.50 (ends May-09-04 18:35:12 PDT)        4208694676 - Vermont Folk-Songs & Ballads by Flanders & Brown, 1968
reprint, $5.95 (ends May-04-04 07:28:21 PDT)        4208516443 - MINSTRELSY OF THE SCOTTISH BORDERS by Scott, volumes
1 & 3, 1810, 10 GBP (ends May-07-04 08:23:09 PDT)        3910495582 - ÉIGSE: A Journal of Irish Studies, 1967, inc. article
on Broadside Ballads in Irish, $15 (ends May-07-04 09:03:23 PDT)        4208538777 - American Murder Ballads / and Their Stories by Burt,
1958, $15 (ends May-07-04 10:36:37 PDT)        4208649750 - BAWDY SONGS AND BACKROOM BALLADS by Brand, 1960,
$9.99 (ends May-07-04 23:56:13 PDT)        4208654125 - Wobblies, Pile Butts, and Other Heroes by Green,
1993, $24.99 (ends May-08-04 01:18:44 PDT)        3721663787 - The SHANTY BOOK- Part I by Terry, 1921, 4.99 GBP
(ends May-08-04 07:34:26 PDT)        4208149970 - The Oxford Nursery Rhyme Book by Opie, 1985 reprint,
2 GBP (ends May-08-04 15:02:03 PDT)        4208801648 - Australian Legend by Ward, 1980, $7.50 (ends
May-08-04 16:13:15 PDT)        4208835806 - Pint Pot and Billy by Fahey, 1977, $6.99 (ends
 May-08-04 19:55:40 PDT)        3721877268 - Book of British Ballads by Hall, 1853, $38 (ends
May-09-04 09:38:21 PDT)        4208407370 - Country Music U.S.A by Malone, 1968, $6.50 (ends
May-09-04 15:43:34 PDT)        4209073428 - THE REBEL SONGSTER-SONGS THE CONFEDERATES SANG by
Wellman, 1959, $9.99 (ends May-09-04 16:26:24 PDT)        4010970910 - Southern Exposure, 2000, $9.99 (ends May-09-04
18:10:46 PDT)        4208602783 - The Legendary Ballads of England and Scotland by
Warne, 1868, 4.99 GBP (ends May-10-04 16:37:36 PDT)        4208775717 - Everyman's Book of English Country Songs by Palmer,
1979, 3.99 GBP (ends May-11-04 13:30:45 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Folks:For an obit of Bruce Olson for the EFSDS journal, I would welcome any fond memories, rueful recollections, email exchanges, and/or bitter clashes.Please send even those which might show Bruce as he was: irascible, difficult, dedicated, passionate, and loyal.Let us not send him off gently into that last goodnight.  He deserves better.Ed

According to Sheila Kay Adams at a concert last night, the Chandler family
is working up a lawsuit of Rounder & the "Oh Brother" producers & whomever
else has recorded any version of "Oh Death" because, the family says,
one of the Chandlers wrote it.  Dillard?  I wasn't taking notes. But:
Even though she's related to the Chandlers, Adams seemed to think if anyone
had evidence of the song in an old hymnal or wherever that predated Chandler,
they should nip this thing in the bud.  She says every version so far has
been traced no further than Chandler, who was an itinerant preacher, &
spread his version of the song pretty wide in his travels.I put "Calling John Garst" up there because he's an expert on this song,
& has collected many versions.

>According to Sheila Kay Adams at a concert last night, the Chandler family
>is working up a lawsuit of Rounder & the "Oh Brother" producers & whomever
>else has recorded any version of "Oh Death" because, the family says,
>one of the Chandlers wrote it.  Dillard?  I wasn't taking notes. But:
>Even though she's related to the Chandlers, Adams seemed to think if anyone
>had evidence of the song in an old hymnal or wherever that predated Chandler,
>they should nip this thing in the bud.  She says every version so far has
>been traced no further than Chandler, who was an itinerant preacher, &
>spread his version of the song pretty wide in his travels.
>
>
>I put "Calling John Garst" up there because he's an expert on this song,
>& has collected many versions.I gathered versions over the years, but the true scholar of this
ballad nowadays is Carl Lindahl, who has done a tremendous job of
gathering variants (I helped him with some) and trying to track down
anything that might dispute or cast doubt on Lloyd Chandler's claim
that he wrote the song in 1916.  Everyone realizes that Chandler's
"Conversation with Death" belongs to an ancient family going back at
least to the "Dance of Death" illustrations that adorned Medieval
churches and were published in books with illustrative drawings.  As
ballads, there are ancient items such as "Death and the Lady" and its
variants.  The fact remains, however, that diligent research has
failed to turn up *anything* before 1916 that duplicates a
significant portion of Lloyd Chandler's ballad.  All subsequent
appearances of his words can be logically rationalized, even those in
the Bahamas (from Joseph Spence and his relatives - Spence spent
considerable time in the U.S. in a position to have heard the ballad
here).  Interestingly, "Oh Death" exists in versions, largely from
blacks, that have nothing significant in common with "Conversation
with Death."  Several versions were recorded in the 1920s and later.
A song collected in 1907 (according to Lindahl) and published by John
W. Work in his American Negro Songs and Spirituals is entitled
"Death's Goin' to Lay His Hand on Me" and contains the line, "Death's
goin' to lay his cold icy hands on me" - "cold icy hands" is the only
parallel with the other songs.In my opinion, Carl has done a great job on this.  Lloyd Chandler's
claim is backed up by the testimony of family and friends and by the
known record of the subsequent evolution of the song.  Evidently
early versions of "Oh Death" later got mixed with "Conversation with
Death" to produce versions like Ralph Stanley's.What ghost says is true: if anyone has evidence of the song in an old
hymnal or wherever that predates Chandler (1916) they should come
forth.  The person to contact is Carl Lindahl.  I don't think that's
going to happen, though.  The circumstantial evidence for Lloyd
Chandler's authorship seems pretty convincing.--
john garst    [unmask]

On 5/5/04, John Garst wrote:[ ... ]>I gathered versions over the years, but the true scholar of this
>ballad nowadays is Carl Lindahl, who has done a tremendous job of
>gathering variants (I helped him with some) and trying to track down
>anything that might dispute or cast doubt on Lloyd Chandler's claim
>that he wrote the song in 1916.[ ... ]>What ghost says is true: if anyone has evidence of the song in an old
>hymnal or wherever that predates Chandler (1916) they should come
>forth.  The person to contact is Carl Lindahl.  I don't think that's
>going to happen, though.  The circumstantial evidence for Lloyd
>Chandler's authorship seems pretty convincing.I just have to add an aside here (I have no opinion on the authorship):
If the song does indeed date back to 1916, then it has to be out of
copyright. Doesn't matter when Chandler died; it went public domain no
later than 1972.Ralph Stanley may well owe royalties for his earlier recordings --
*if* the song was copyrighted, and has anyone verified that?
But "O Brother" is a new recording, and not subject to copyright
claims.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Bob and friends,It may matter when Lloyd Chandler died.  See
http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm for a handy chart titled "When U.S.
Works Pass into the Public Domain."  As I interpret this, if in 1916 (or
anytime before 1/1/78) Chandler wrote "Oh Death" or a distinct version of
it, and this was *never* published, the copyright would extend to 70 years
from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2002, whichever is greater.  If his
song *was* published between 1/1/78 and 12/31/2002, then the copyright would
extend to 70 years from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2047, whichever is
greater.  We have the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act (1998) to
thank for these longer terms.JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL  61820-5903
(217) 244-4681 phone
(217) 244-8082 fax
[unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On Behalf Of
Robert B. Waltz
Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2004 5:38 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Oh Death lawsuit (calling John Garst)...I just have to add an aside here (I have no opinion on the authorship):
If the song does indeed date back to 1916, then it has to be out of
copyright. Doesn't matter when Chandler died; it went public domain no
later than 1972.Ralph Stanley may well owe royalties for his earlier recordings --
*if* the song was copyrighted, and has anyone verified that?
But "O Brother" is a new recording, and not subject to copyright
claims.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Bob:In general, I would agree with you as to the mantle of public domain falling on the Reverend Chandler's composition.  BUT, if he copyrighted the song some years after its composition, say, in 1924, it might well be still protected.1924 plus 28 years for the original copyright, plus 28 for the one renewal permitted under the old law, would bring it to 1980 -- the year after the revised copyright act went into effect making a copyright then in effect good for the life of the creator plus 75 years.And, of course, there is the GREAT DISNEY ESCAPE ACT which keeps Mickey Mouse safely in the lucrative custody of the Disney Corporation.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2004 3:38 pm
Subject: Re: Oh Death lawsuit (calling John Garst)> On 5/5/04, John Garst wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >I gathered versions over the years, but the true scholar of this
> >ballad nowadays is Carl Lindahl, who has done a tremendous job of
> >gathering variants (I helped him with some) and trying to track down
> >anything that might dispute or cast doubt on Lloyd Chandler's claim
> >that he wrote the song in 1916.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >What ghost says is true: if anyone has evidence of the song in an old
> >hymnal or wherever that predates Chandler (1916) they should come
> >forth.  The person to contact is Carl Lindahl.  I don't think that's
> >going to happen, though.  The circumstantial evidence for Lloyd
> >Chandler's authorship seems pretty convincing.
>
> I just have to add an aside here (I have no opinion on the authorship):
> If the song does indeed date back to 1916, then it has to be out of
> copyright. Doesn't matter when Chandler died; it went public domain no
> later than 1972.
>
> Ralph Stanley may well owe royalties for his earlier recordings --
> *if* the song was copyrighted, and has anyone verified that?
> But "O Brother" is a new recording, and not subject to copyright
> claims.
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."
>

On 5/5/04, Judy McCulloh wrote:>Bob and friends,
>
>It may matter when Lloyd Chandler died.  See
>http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm for a handy chart titled "When U.S.
>Works Pass into the Public Domain."  As I interpret this, if in 1916 (or
>anytime before 1/1/78) Chandler wrote "Oh Death" or a distinct version of
>it, and this was *never* published, the copyright would extend to 70 years
>from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2002, whichever is greater.  If his
>song *was* published between 1/1/78 and 12/31/2002, then the copyright would
>extend to 70 years from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2047, whichever is
>greater.  We have the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act (1998) to
>thank for these longer terms.But the song was published (in some form or other): Ralph Stanley
recorded it ages ago, or so I understand. His recording was not
the first time he'd done it. And Stanley (or the Stanley Brothers)
had to learn it somewhere, probably *not* from Chandler.On 5/5/04, edward cray wrote:>Bob:
>
>In general, I would agree with you as to the mantle of public domain falling on the Reverend Chandler's composition.  BUT, if he copyrighted the song some years after its composition, say, in 1924, it might well be still protected.Of course. But if he didn't copyright it until later, and someone else
recorded it in, say, 1922, then how does he claim authorship? Early
copyright means copyright expired, late copyright implies authorship
problems. :-)Maybe I'm just raging against this stupid notion of infinite
copyright again, but it really seems to me that there are problems
with the case.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

----- Original Message -----
From: "Judy McCulloh" <[unmask]><<It may matter when Lloyd Chandler died.  See
http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm for a handy chart titled "When U.S.
Works Pass into the Public Domain."  As I interpret this, if in 1916 (or
anytime before 1/1/78) Chandler wrote "Oh Death" or a distinct version of
it, and this was *never* published, the copyright would extend to 70 years
from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2002, whichever is greater.  If his
song *was* published between 1/1/78 and 12/31/2002, then the copyright would
extend to 70 years from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2047, whichever is
greater.  We have the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act (1998) to
thank for these longer terms.>>What about publication between 1916 and 1978? The song was recorded by
Vernon Dalhart in 1928, and by Dock Boggs in the 1950s; a variant was
recorded by Charley Patton. None, of course, credited to Chandler.Peace,
Paul

Hi-
Well, the book finally arrived, and a fine job it is.

Hi -Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation  just arrived. UK price
(today's exchange rate) $45 delivered in UK.  My price: $40 + actual
postage ($2.50 Media Mail) I was hoping to come in lower, but shipping
cost from Scotland came to almost $10 per volume.I've received more orders than I'd anticipated, so I'll be placing a
follow-up order. If you haven't already contacted me about it, please
do--frankly, I can't afford to order extra copies  for stock.I haven't read it, but it looks very good:  you can see details at:
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/research.htiPS: I never received enough orders for the Shirley Collins book to
warrant my carrying it.
PPS: I'm pretty much sold out of Ramblin' Man, but I do have copies of
The Sodom Laurel Ambum (with CD), Classic English Folk Songs and Still
Growing. I can also supply the Greig-Duncan Collection (single volumes
or complete set of 8) at
a much lower price than I've seen elsewhere.
dick greenhaus
CAMSCO Music
800/548-FOLK <3655>

Paul, Bob, Judy and Uncle Tom Cobbler:It really doesn't matter if Chandler copyrighted the song or not.  He only has to prove in a court of law that he wrote it.  (A similar thing happened to Woody Guthrie.  His cousin Jack Guthrie recorded "Oklahoma Hills" and claimed the author's copyright -- perhaps on the grounds that he did change Woody's original text somewhat.  When Woody protested, Capitol added his name to the copyright.)Indeed, a clever lawyer might sue Dahlhart, Boggs and Patton for plagiarism (legally theft of intellectual property).Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, May 5, 2004 1:13 am
Subject: Re: Oh Death lawsuit (calling John Garst)> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Judy McCulloh" <[unmask]>
>
> <<It may matter when Lloyd Chandler died.  See
> http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm for a handy chart titled "When U.S.
> Works Pass into the Public Domain."  As I interpret this, if in 1916 (or
> anytime before 1/1/78) Chandler wrote "Oh Death" or a distinct version of
> it, and this was *never* published, the copyright would extend to 70 years
> from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2002, whichever is greater.  If his
> song *was* published between 1/1/78 and 12/31/2002, then the copyright would
> extend to 70 years from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2047, whichever is
> greater.  We have the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act (1998) to
> thank for these longer terms.>>
>
> What about publication between 1916 and 1978? The song was recorded by
> Vernon Dalhart in 1928, and by Dock Boggs in the 1950s; a variant was
> recorded by Charley Patton. None, of course, credited to Chandler.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

The Charley Patton - Bertha Sims recording of "Oh Death" (1934) is not
closely related, except for the general theme.  However, the Pace Jubilee
Singers (1927) use the same tune and the same format, e.g.--
Oh death (3)
Spare me over another year.My work is to summon thee
Death, spare me over another year
Sinner I've come by heaven's decree
Spare me over another year.    CHO.Whether you are prepared or no
Spare me over another year
This very night will ... (?) must go
Spare me over another year.   CHOI am a flower just in bloom
Spare me over another year
Why willst thou cut me down so soon?
Spare me over another year.    CHOI don't recall the Dalhart song, "Conversation with Death (by a Blind Girl)"
but I don't believe it's close either.
If these texts are arguably the same song as what Chandler sang (and
putatively wrote) then their recordings constitute publication, and without
notice of copyright, which effectively put the song in p.d.
I would guess that, unlike the Guthrie case, this is the more common case of
a singer writing a version of a song and then (50 years later) not recalling
exactly what s/he based the song on.
Norm

----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]><<It really doesn't matter if Chandler copyrighted the song or not.  He only
has to prove in a court of law that he wrote it.  >>No argument from me. My remark, though, was stimulated by Judy's:> As I interpret this, if in 1916 (or
> anytime before 1/1/78) Chandler wrote "Oh Death" or a distinct version of
> it, and this was *never* published, the copyright would extend to 70 years
> from whenever he died, or until 12/31/2002, whichever is greater.That isn't the case; it was published, but by other people (Dalhart, Boggs
and Patton). So my question: how long does a copyright run if the work of
author A is published by B, C and D, without author A's permission?And, by the way, when did Lloyd Chandler pass?Peace,
Paul

>I don't recall the Dalhart song, "Conversation with Death (by a Blind Girl)"
>but I don't believe it's close either.According to Carl Lindahl, it is very close to Lloyd Chandler's text
with a few additional lines.>...
>Norm--
john garst    [unmask]

Balladeers --It's finally here for those who want it. Ballad Index 1.8
is available at the Fresno web site (URL in the sig below).The new version adds nine books, contributed by four different
indexers (a new record, I think, for number of people contributing
to a particular version). The books are Burt, Doyle (3rd edition,
very different from the 2nd edition already indexed),
Flanders/Brown, Fowke/MacMillan, Fuson, Gardner/Chickering,
Greenleaf/Mansfield, Greene's _Only a Miner_, and Linscott.We're up to 5,990 different songs, indexed under 10,437
titles. We have 17,377 book references (representing probably
25,000-30,000 actual texts) and 5028 recording references.In the Funky Statistics, the most popular song remains
Barbara Allen, which leads both the book references (50)
and the total references (66). Next up, interestingly,
is "The Golden Vanity," at 44 book + 16 recording references,
for a total of 60 citations.The top five in terms of most book citations are:1. Barbara Allen (50; 16 recordings)
2. The Golden Vanity (44; 16 recordings)
3. Lord Thomas (43; 5 recordings)
4. Lady Isabel (42; 4 recordings)
5. The Gypsy Laddie (40; 12 recordings)
   Young Beichan (40; 11 recordings)The song with the most traditional-or-nearly recordings is
John Henry, with 33 recordings and 24 book references, making
it, I believe, the #4 song in total references (#3 is
Frankie and Albert, with 25/26 recordings and 32 book
references). The Top five in terms of recordings is a very
different list:1. John Henry (33 recordings; 24 book references)
2. Amazing Grave (31 recordings)
3. Going Down This Road Feeling Bad (30 recordings)
4. Whoa Mule (27 recordings)
5. Frankie and Albert (25/26 recordings)Of the 5990 distinct songs in the database, 189 are not
found in any printed references (i.e. they're from recordings),
2975 more are found in only one reference. Only 710 songs
are found in six or more sources -- an interesting comment
on both the large number of traditional songs and how few
of them are actually widespread.Incidentally, in the course of preparing version 1.8, I ended
up shifting computers twice (well, once and back again). I didn't
lose any data, but I am not absolutely sure I managed to keep
track of everything, either. For those of you who have contributed
to the Index lately (in the last two years, say), if you by any
chance have a list of what you've done, it would really help
if you could send me that list, so I can try to get all my files
nicely organized in one place.I'll also emphasize that there is always room for more indexers.
Of the nine books added this time, I indexed only five, meaning
that I am serving more and more as editor and less and less as
Whole Enchilada. This is good on at least three counts: First,
it makes it All Our Index; second, it means that more people are
checking the Index and spotting errors; and third, it means
that we can add more material more quickly. (Version 1.8
contains about as much new stuff as Version 1.7, but was
prepared in not much more than half the time.)Thanks to all those who contributed to this and past editions.
You can find their names at the Ballad Index site, and the
list of their contributions in the Bibliography and Discography.
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Thanks for clarifying, John.  I know Carl gave a paper on the topic some
time ago; is it available anywhere?  or has he published anything?
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:05 AM
Subject: Re: Oh Death lawsuit> >I don't recall the Dalhart song, "Conversation with Death (by a Blind
Girl)"
> >but I don't believe it's close either.
>
> According to Carl Lindahl, it is very close to Lloyd Chandler's text
> with a few additional lines.
>
> >...
> >Norm
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

>Thanks for clarifying, John.  I know Carl gave a paper on the topic some
>time ago; is it available anywhere?  or has he published anything?
>NormI don't know about publication.  He has sent me some drafts of data
and chronology.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

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                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Cork Harbor/By the Lightning We Lost Our Sight/The Blind SailorSome of you may have come across the discussion of this song on
Mudcat - a version is on Dan Milner & Friends: "Irish Songs from Old
New England" on Folk-Legacy.In the notes to "Sea Songs & Ballads from 19th Century Nova Scotia,"
Edith Fowke refers to "a New Brunswick version that Barry prints."
I'd like to track down the Barry reference. Her references to the
song (Laws K6) include Mackenzie (the Nova Scotia "By the
lightning..."); also the Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the
Northeast (No.3, 1931, p.14). Is this the Phillips Barry reference?
Does anyone have this publication handy? Thanks for any information.John Roberts

John:BFSSNE No. 3, p. 14 (1931) contains "The Lightning Flash" as sung "by the late Mr. John R.A. Nesbitt, St. Stephen, New Brunswick.  Text recorded by Miss Mary W. Smyth; melody recorded by George Herzog."  The accompanying note is signed by "P.B."The first verse runs:When I was young and in my prime, my age twenty-tom,
I fell in love with a pretty girl; the truth I'll tell to
   you.
I courted her for seven years, till her father came to know,
He says: "I'll have you cross the seas, where the stormy
   winds do blow.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, May 9, 2004 2:06 pm
Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog> Cork Harbor/By the Lightning We Lost Our Sight/The Blind Sailor
>
> Some of you may have come across the discussion of this song on
> Mudcat - a version is on Dan Milner & Friends: "Irish Songs from Old
> New England" on Folk-Legacy.
>
> In the notes to "Sea Songs & Ballads from 19th Century Nova Scotia,"
> Edith Fowke refers to "a New Brunswick version that Barry prints."
> I'd like to track down the Barry reference. Her references to the
> song (Laws K6) include Mackenzie (the Nova Scotia "By the
> lightning..."); also the Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the
> Northeast (No.3, 1931, p.14). Is this the Phillips Barry reference?
> Does anyone have this publication handy? Thanks for any information.
>
> John Roberts
>

Many thanks, Ed. Is the tune published there also?John(And apologies to all for failing to change the header when I used a
"reply" for my initial post. No froggies wooing around here.)>John:
>
>BFSSNE No. 3, p. 14 (1931) contains "The Lightning Flash" as sung
>"by the late Mr. John R.A. Nesbitt, St. Stephen, New Brunswick.
>Text recorded by Miss Mary W. Smyth; melody recorded by George
>Herzog."  The accompanying note is signed by "P.B."
>
>The first verse runs:
>
>When I was young and in my prime, my age twenty-tom,
>I fell in love with a pretty girl; the truth I'll tell to
>   you.
>I courted her for seven years, till her father came to know,
>He says: "I'll have you cross the seas, where the stormy
>   winds do blow.
>
>Ed
>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
>Date: Sunday, May 9, 2004 2:06 pm
>Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog
>
>> Cork Harbor/By the Lightning We Lost Our Sight/The Blind Sailor
>>
>> Some of you may have come across the discussion of this song on
>> Mudcat - a version is on Dan Milner & Friends: "Irish Songs from Old
>> New England" on Folk-Legacy.
>>
>> In the notes to "Sea Songs & Ballads from 19th Century Nova Scotia,"
>> Edith Fowke refers to "a New Brunswick version that Barry prints."
>> I'd like to track down the Barry reference. Her references to the
>> song (Laws K6) include Mackenzie (the Nova Scotia "By the
>> lightning..."); also the Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the
>> Northeast (No.3, 1931, p.14). Is this the Phillips Barry reference?
>> Does anyone have this publication handy? Thanks for any information.
>>
>> John Roberts
>>

John:Yes.  If you wish, I will try to use my brand new scanner and email the pages to you.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, May 9, 2004 5:21 pm
Subject: The Blind Sailor> Many thanks, Ed. Is the tune published there also?
>
> John
>
>
> (And apologies to all for failing to change the header when I used a
> "reply" for my initial post. No froggies wooing around here.)
>
>
>
> >John:
> >
> >BFSSNE No. 3, p. 14 (1931) contains "The Lightning Flash" as sung
> >"by the late Mr. John R.A. Nesbitt, St. Stephen, New Brunswick.
> >Text recorded by Miss Mary W. Smyth; melody recorded by George
> >Herzog."  The accompanying note is signed by "P.B."
> >
> >The first verse runs:
> >
> >When I was young and in my prime, my age twenty-tom,
> >I fell in love with a pretty girl; the truth I'll tell to
> >   you.
> >I courted her for seven years, till her father came to know,
> >He says: "I'll have you cross the seas, where the stormy
> >   winds do blow.
> >
> >Ed
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
> >Date: Sunday, May 9, 2004 2:06 pm
> >Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog
> >
> >> Cork Harbor/By the Lightning We Lost Our Sight/The Blind Sailor
> >>
> >> Some of you may have come across the discussion of this song on
> >> Mudcat - a version is on Dan Milner & Friends: "Irish Songs from Old
> >> New England" on Folk-Legacy.
> >>
> >> In the notes to "Sea Songs & Ballads from 19th Century Nova Scotia,"
> >> Edith Fowke refers to "a New Brunswick version that Barry prints."
> >> I'd like to track down the Barry reference. Her references to the
> >> song (Laws K6) include Mackenzie (the Nova Scotia "By the
> >> lightning..."); also the Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the
> >> Northeast (No.3, 1931, p.14). Is this the Phillips Barry reference?
> >> Does anyone have this publication handy? Thanks for any information.
> >>
> >> John Roberts
> >>
>

Ed,That would be wonderful. You can practice with your scanner, and I
can get to practice OCR!John>John:
>
>Yes.  If you wish, I will try to use my brand new scanner and email
>the pages to you.
>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
>Date: Sunday, May 9, 2004 5:21 pm
>Subject: The Blind Sailor
>
>> Many thanks, Ed. Is the tune published there also?
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> (And apologies to all for failing to change the header when I used a
>> "reply" for my initial post. No froggies wooing around here.)
>>
>>
>>
>> >John:
>> >
>> >BFSSNE No. 3, p. 14 (1931) contains "The Lightning Flash" as sung
>> >"by the late Mr. John R.A. Nesbitt, St. Stephen, New Brunswick.
>> >Text recorded by Miss Mary W. Smyth; melody recorded by George
>> >Herzog."  The accompanying note is signed by "P.B."
>> >
>> >The first verse runs:
>> >
>> >When I was young and in my prime, my age twenty-tom,
>> >I fell in love with a pretty girl; the truth I'll tell to
>> >   you.
>> >I courted her for seven years, till her father came to know,
>> >He says: "I'll have you cross the seas, where the stormy
>> >   winds do blow.
>> >
>> >Ed
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
>> >Date: Sunday, May 9, 2004 2:06 pm
>> >Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog
>> >
>> >> Cork Harbor/By the Lightning We Lost Our Sight/The Blind Sailor
>> >>
>> >> Some of you may have come across the discussion of this song on
>> >> Mudcat - a version is on Dan Milner & Friends: "Irish Songs from Old
>> >> New England" on Folk-Legacy.
>> >>
>> >> In the notes to "Sea Songs & Ballads from 19th Century Nova Scotia,"
>> >> Edith Fowke refers to "a New Brunswick version that Barry prints."
>> >> I'd like to track down the Barry reference. Her references to the
>> >> song (Laws K6) include Mackenzie (the Nova Scotia "By the
>> >> lightning..."); also the Bulletin of the Folksong Society of the
>> >> Northeast (No.3, 1931, p.14). Is this the Phillips Barry reference?
>> >> Does anyone have this publication handy? Thanks for any information.
>> >>
>> >> John Roberts
>> >>
>>

Dick: The book arrived, thanks very much. Ron Cohen-----Original Message-----
From:   Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of vze29j8v
Sent:   Thu 5/6/2004 10:27 AM
To:     [unmask]
Cc:	
Subject:        Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creationHi -Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation  just arrived. UK price
(today's exchange rate) $45 delivered in UK.  My price: $40 + actual
postage ($2.50 Media Mail) I was hoping to come in lower, but shipping
cost from Scotland came to almost $10 per volume.I've received more orders than I'd anticipated, so I'll be placing a
follow-up order. If you haven't already contacted me about it, please
do--frankly, I can't afford to order extra copies  for stock.I haven't read it, but it looks very good:  you can see details at:
http://www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/research.htiPS: I never received enough orders for the Shirley Collins book to
warrant my carrying it.
PPS: I'm pretty much sold out of Ramblin' Man, but I do have copies of
The Sodom Laurel Ambum (with CD), Classic English Folk Songs and Still
Growing. I can also supply the Greig-Duncan Collection (single volumes
or complete set of 8) at
a much lower price than I've seen elsewhere.
dick greenhaus
CAMSCO Music
800/548-FOLK <3655>

At 10:58 AM 5/11/04 -0500, you wrote:>PPS: I'm pretty much sold out of Ramblin' Man, but I do have copies of
>The Sodom Laurel Ambum (with CD), Classic English Folk Songs and Still
>Growing. I can also supply the Greig-Duncan Collection (single volumes
>or complete set of 8) at
>a much lower price than I've seen elsewhere.
>dick greenhaus
>CAMSCO Music
>800/548-FOLK <3655>I have the Sodom Laurel book w/CD, and I heartily recommend it to anyone
interested in Appalachian balladry.  Wonderful large book of sensitive and
beautiful photos, with interviews of the people and their lives there in
the mountains.  The ballads included on the cd are very rich and compelling
(I just really wish they had included TWO cd's of sung material instead of
one, because it just left me wanting more...).
Lisa

As usual, if there's enough interest, CAMSCO will carry any or all of these. A scholar and his money are soon parted...The Bedesman and the Hodbearer
  The Epistolary Friendship of Francis James Child and William Walker -
Edited and Introduced by Mary Ellen Brown  The Bedesman and the Hodbearer is the second in the Elphinstone
Institute's Occasional Publications Series on the
  culture and traditions of North and North-East Scotland. The
intriguing title describes the epistolary relationship between
  Aberdeen pawnbroker William Walker and Harvard Professor Francis James
Child, during the last decade of the nineteenth
  century. Edited and introduced by Professor Mary Ellen Brown, Director
of the Institute for Advanced Study at the
  University of Indiana, the book brings together for the first time the
two halves of their correspondence: from the Houghton
  Library at Harvard and from Aberdeen University's Historic
Collections, Special Libraries and Archives. Child's monumental
  The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (1882-1898), the standard
text for ballad studies, was published without an
  introduction, which he had intended to remedy but for his untimely
death in 1896. This fascinating correspondence helps
  the reader to gain an insight into Child's method of working, as well
as the remarkable friendship the two men established.  To order a copy of this publication (priced £10.00), either print out
an order form here or contact the Elphinstone Institute:
  24 High Street, King's College, Aberdeen AB24 3EBGlenbuchat Ballad Manuscript, forthcomingNorthern Folk: Living Traditions of North East Scotland
  Interactive multimedia CD-ROM  Two years in the making, Northern Folk explores the crucial role
tradition plays in people's lives. Find out about burning
  the Clavie at Burghead. Listen to the ballad 'The Battle of Harlaw'.
See Alec Findlay perform at the Tivoli variety theatre in
  Aberdeen. Visit Peterhead and Fraserburgh to discover the techniques
fisherfolk use, from sma lines to modern beam
  trawling.
  To order a copy of Northern Folk (cost £20, inlcluding postage &
packing), either print out an order form here or contact
  The Secretary, The Elphinstone Institute, King's College, 24 High
Street, Aberdeen AB24 3EB - Email:
  [unmask]Hebridean Song-Maker. Iain MacNeacail of the Isle of Skye
  Thomas A. McKean, 1997  Hebridean Song-Maker, published by Polygon, explores the world of a
Gaelic song-maker, largely through
  Iain's own words and thoughts. The picture that emerges is of a lively
interaction between a vibrant
  island community and their township bard. The book includes a CD of
Iain MacNeacail singing his own
  songs.

Dick:Okay, I screwed up.  I thought I ordered this volume.  Will you please send it to me and bill it to my Visa card:4264 2812 4690 XXXX.The last four digits, the three-digit security code and the expiration date follow.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, May 6, 2004 8:27 am
Subject: Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation> Hi -
>
> Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation  just arrived. UK price
> (today's exchange rate) $45 delivered in UK.  My price: $40 + actual
> postage ($2.50 Media Mail) I was hoping to come in lower, but shipping
> cost from Scotland came to almost $10 per volume.
>
> I've received more orders than I'd anticipated, so I'll be placing a
> follow-up order. If you haven't already contacted me about it, please
> do--frankly, I can't afford to order extra copies  for stock.
>
> I haven't read it, but it looks very good:  you can see details at:
> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/research.hti
>
> PS: I never received enough orders for the Shirley Collins book to
> warrant my carrying it.
> PPS: I'm pretty much sold out of Ramblin' Man, but I do have copies of
> The Sodom Laurel Ambum (with CD), Classic English Folk Songs and Still
> Growing. I can also supply the Greig-Duncan Collection (single volumes
> or complete set of 8) at
> a much lower price than I've seen elsewhere.
> dick greenhaus
> CAMSCO Music
> 800/548-FOLK <3655>
>

Dick:The last four digits are 8007.  The security code is 227.
The address is:Ed Cray
647 Raymond Ave.
No. 2
Santa Monica, Ca. 90405Please use this card for purchases in the future.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, May 6, 2004 8:27 am
Subject: Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation> Hi -
>
> Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation  just arrived. UK price
> (today's exchange rate) $45 delivered in UK.  My price: $40 + actual
> postage ($2.50 Media Mail) I was hoping to come in lower, but shipping
> cost from Scotland came to almost $10 per volume.
>
> I've received more orders than I'd anticipated, so I'll be placing a
> follow-up order. If you haven't already contacted me about it, please
> do--frankly, I can't afford to order extra copies  for stock.
>
> I haven't read it, but it looks very good:  you can see details at:
> http://www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/research.hti
>
> PS: I never received enough orders for the Shirley Collins book to
> warrant my carrying it.
> PPS: I'm pretty much sold out of Ramblin' Man, but I do have copies of
> The Sodom Laurel Ambum (with CD), Classic English Folk Songs and Still
> Growing. I can also supply the Greig-Duncan Collection (single volumes
> or complete set of 8) at
> a much lower price than I've seen elsewhere.
> dick greenhaus
> CAMSCO Music
> 800/548-FOLK <3655>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

C'mon, Ed. I can sell just three groups of numbers. I need the 4th group
and the expiration date. <g>Paul GaronAt 10:21 PM 5/11/2004, you wrote:
>  XXXX.
>
>The last four digits, the three-digit security code and the expiration
>date follow.
>
>EdPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Dick:I drink.And I will make time at the Eisteddfod.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:45 am
Subject: Re: Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation> OK. It will take a while, though. I'm out of stock, and re-ordering and
> it's coming by surface mail because air mail from the UK is prohibitive.
> BTW, if you'll have any free time when you come east for the Eisteddfod,
> I'd love to hoist a couple with you. Ot just gab some, if you don't drink.
>
> dick
>
> edward cray wrote:
>
> >Dick:
> >
> >Okay, I screwed up.  I thought I ordered this volume.  Will you please
> send it to me and bill it to my Visa card:
> >
> >4264 2812 4690 XXXX.
> >
> >The last four digits, the three-digit security code and the expiration
> date follow.
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> >Date: Thursday, May 6, 2004 8:27 am
> >Subject: Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi -
> >>
> >>Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation  just arrived. UK price
> >>(today's exchange rate) $45 delivered in UK.  My price: $40 + actual
> >>postage ($2.50 Media Mail) I was hoping to come in lower, but shipping
> >>cost from Scotland came to almost $10 per volume.
> >>
> >>I've received more orders than I'd anticipated, so I'll be placing a
> >>follow-up order. If you haven't already contacted me about it, please
> >>do--frankly, I can't afford to order extra copies  for stock.
> >>
> >>I haven't read it, but it looks very good:  you can see details at:
> >>http://www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/research.hti
> >>
> >>PS: I never received enough orders for the Shirley Collins book to
> >>warrant my carrying it.
> >>PPS: I'm pretty much sold out of Ramblin' Man, but I do have copies of
> >>The Sodom Laurel Ambum (with CD), Classic English Folk Songs and Still
> >>Growing. I can also supply the Greig-Duncan Collection (single volumes
> >>or complete set of 8) at
> >>a much lower price than I've seen elsewhere.
> >>dick greenhaus
> >>CAMSCO Music
> >>800/548-FOLK <3655>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>

Now, this one confuses me. If someone wants a copy of anything, please
let me know. Otherwise, I think it's a bad idea to deal with credit card
numbers on an open form.dick greenhausPaul Garon wrote:> C'mon, Ed. I can sell just three groups of numbers. I need the 4th group
> and the expiration date. <g>
>
> Paul Garon
>
> At 10:21 PM 5/11/2004, you wrote:
>
>>  XXXX.
>>
>> The last four digits, the three-digit security code and the expiration
>> date follow.
>>
>> Ed
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
Sorry for the confusion. I was teasing Ed about sending his cc# to the3 whole list! Apologies.Paul GaronFrom: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:         Wed, 12 May 2004 09:58:46 -0400>Now, this one confuses me. If someone wants a copy of anything, please
>let me know. Otherwise, I think it's a bad idea to deal with credit card
>numbers on an open form.
>
>dick greenhaus
>
>Paul Garon wrote:
>
>> C'mon, Ed. I can sell just three groups of numbers. I need the 4th group
>> and the expiration date. <g>
>>
>> Paul Garon
>>
>> At 10:21 PM 5/11/2004, you wrote:
>>
>>>  XXXX.
>>>
>>> The last four digits, the three-digit security code and the expiration
>>> date follow.
>>>
>>> Ed
>>
>>
>> Paul and Beth Garon
>> Beasley Books (ABAA)
>> 1533 W. Oakdale
>> Chicago, IL 60657
>> (773) 472-4528
>> (773) 472-7857 FAX
>> [unmask]
>>
>--
Paul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books
1533 W Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
773 472 4528
773 472 7857 (fax)
--

Folks:Once again I marvel at the honesty of the 200 or so souls on this list.Dick Greenhaus and I keep hitting the "reply" button -- forgetting we are sending to ballad-l, not each other privately.So, for a second time I have had to call Visa and cancel my card.For those of you who missed your great opportunity, pay attention.  I am bound to do it again.EdP.S.  Thanks to David, Heather, Paul, Lani, Uncle Tom Cobbler and all who wrote to alert me of my misdeed.

Edward-perhaps we are letting you know about the misposted card number only because of the futility of any of us attempting to use that account number.   If we were to steal the card number we would only be attempting to purchase the same books and albums your were purchasing.  No, our only choice was to let you know of the posting.  You could track down a fellow book addict too easily.cheersLizin sunny new Hampshire-----Original Message-----
From: edward cray [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 12:26 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: IncompetanceFolks:Once again I marvel at the honesty of the 200 or so souls on this list.Dick Greenhaus and I keep hitting the "reply" button -- forgetting we are sending to ballad-l, not each other privately.So, for a second time I have had to call Visa and cancel my card.For those of you who missed your great opportunity, pay attention.  I am bound to do it again.EdP.S.  Thanks to David, Heather, Paul, Lani, Uncle Tom Cobbler and all who wrote to alert me of my misdeed.

Ed,By the time I checked my email the mistake had already been noted, so I
didn't add to that.But, in the spirit of "piling on" [a U.S. football term for thiose who
might be unfamiliar with it], I was reminded of the comment that Robert
Sherwood made to Dorothy Parker when he visited her in the hospital
after one of her suicide attempts. He said something like, "Dotty, You
must cut this out or you will do yourself a serious injury."Since I have also hit the wrong button from time to time, I feel your
pain.Lew>>> [unmask] 5/12/2004 12:25:37 PM >>>
Folks:Once again I marvel at the honesty of the 200 or so souls on this
list.Dick Greenhaus and I keep hitting the "reply" button -- forgetting we
are sending to ballad-l, not each other privately.So, for a second time I have had to call Visa and cancel my card.For those of you who missed your great opportunity, pay attention.  I
am bound to do it again.EdP.S.  Thanks to David, Heather, Paul, Lani, Uncle Tom Cobbler and all
who wrote to alert me of my misdeed.

All is revealed in Ed's other public emailing to Dick :-)>Dick:
>
>I drink.
>
>And I will make time at the Eisteddfod.
>
>Ed
>

Maybe Ed should make his credit card the medium of payment for the entire
list, and we just repay him.....
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 9:25 AM
Subject: Incompetance> Folks:
>
> Once again I marvel at the honesty of the 200 or so souls on this list.
>
> Dick Greenhaus and I keep hitting the "reply" button -- forgetting we are
sending to ballad-l, not each other privately.
>
> So, for a second time I have had to call Visa and cancel my card.
>
> For those of you who missed your great opportunity, pay attention.  I am
bound to do it again.
>
> Ed
>
> P.S.  Thanks to David, Heather, Paul, Lani, Uncle Tom Cobbler and all who
wrote to alert me of my misdeed.
>

If you order from dick you should use [unmask] instead of going thru
the listserv----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: Re: Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation> Dick:
>
> I drink.
>
> And I will make time at the Eisteddfod.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:45 am
> Subject: Re: Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation
>
> > OK. It will take a while, though. I'm out of stock, and re-ordering and
> > it's coming by surface mail because air mail from the UK is prohibitive.
> > BTW, if you'll have any free time when you come east for the Eisteddfod,
> > I'd love to hoist a couple with you. Ot just gab some, if you don't
drink.
> >
> > dick
> >
> > edward cray wrote:
> >
> > >Dick:
> > >
> > >Okay, I screwed up.  I thought I ordered this volume.  Will you please
> > send it to me and bill it to my Visa card:
> > >
> > >4264 2812 4690 XXXX.
> > >
> > >The last four digits, the three-digit security code and the expiration
> > date follow.
> > >
> > >Ed
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> > >Date: Thursday, May 6, 2004 8:27 am
> > >Subject: Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>Hi -
> > >>
> > >>Folk Song: Tradition, Revival & Re-creation  just arrived. UK price
> > >>(today's exchange rate) $45 delivered in UK.  My price: $40 + actual
> > >>postage ($2.50 Media Mail) I was hoping to come in lower, but shipping
> > >>cost from Scotland came to almost $10 per volume.
> > >>
> > >>I've received more orders than I'd anticipated, so I'll be placing a
> > >>follow-up order. If you haven't already contacted me about it, please
> > >>do--frankly, I can't afford to order extra copies  for stock.
> > >>
> > >>I haven't read it, but it looks very good:  you can see details at:
> > >>http://www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/research.hti
> > >>
> > >>PS: I never received enough orders for the Shirley Collins book to
> > >>warrant my carrying it.
> > >>PPS: I'm pretty much sold out of Ramblin' Man, but I do have copies of
> > >>The Sodom Laurel Ambum (with CD), Classic English Folk Songs and Still
> > >>Growing. I can also supply the Greig-Duncan Collection (single volumes
> > >>or complete set of 8) at
> > >>a much lower price than I've seen elsewhere.
> > >>dick greenhaus
> > >>CAMSCO Music
> > >>800/548-FOLK <3655>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

So, The Eisteddfod is still up and running?(!) I just
moved to CT, so i'd like to know where and when.
Thanks.CA

Information at: http://www.folkmusicny.org/eisteddfod/index.htmlIt's "again" up and running under different management, but with the
same philosophy. (Sort of.) In any case, a good time will be had by
all, and I do hope Hedy West will be able to attend.John>So, The Eisteddfod is still up and running?(!) I just
>moved to CT, so i'd like to know where and when.
>Thanks.
>
>CA

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Liz:New Hampshire sunny?!?  Try Santa Monica, 74-degrees at the beach.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Hummel <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 10:44 am
Subject: Re: Incompetence :)> Edward-
>
>
> perhaps we are letting you know about the misposted card number only
> because of the futility of any of us attempting to use that account
> number.   If we were to steal the card number we would only be attempting
> to purchase the same books and albums your were purchasing.  No, our only
> choice was to let you know of the posting.  You could track down a fellow
> book addict too easily.
>
>
> cheers
>
> Liz
>
> in sunny new Hampshire
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: edward cray [[unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 12:26 PM
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Incompetance
>
>
> Folks:
>
> Once again I marvel at the honesty of the 200 or so souls on this list.
>
> Dick Greenhaus and I keep hitting the "reply" button -- forgetting we are
> sending to ballad-l, not each other privately.
>
> So, for a second time I have had to call Visa and cancel my card.
>
> For those of you who missed your great opportunity, pay attention.  I am
> bound to do it again.
>
> Ed
>
> P.S.  Thanks to David, Heather, Paul, Lani, Uncle Tom Cobbler and all who
> wrote to alert me of my misdeed.
>

Norm:You presume there is any room on the card.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 1:27 pm
Subject: Fastest reply button in the west> Maybe Ed should make his credit card the medium of payment for the entire
> list, and we just repay him.....
> Norm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 9:25 AM
> Subject: Incompetance
>
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > Once again I marvel at the honesty of the 200 or so souls on this list.
> >
> > Dick Greenhaus and I keep hitting the "reply" button -- forgetting we are
> sending to ballad-l, not each other privately.
> >
> > So, for a second time I have had to call Visa and cancel my card.
> >
> > For those of you who missed your great opportunity, pay attention.  I am
> bound to do it again.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > P.S.  Thanks to David, Heather, Paul, Lani, Uncle Tom Cobbler and all who
> wrote to alert me of my misdeed.
> >
>

It's a phoenix-type bit. This one's in Brooklyn, run by Pinewoods. Great
cast; less-than-great location and conveniences.
dickCliff Abrams wrote:>So, The Eisteddfod is still up and running?(!) I just
>moved to CT, so i'd like to know where and when.
>Thanks.
>
>CA
>
>
>