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----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred McCormick" <[unmask]><<The two LPs you mention were published on Folkways as Field Trip England
and
Field Trip Ireland. I don't have the track listing for the England disc to
hand. However, there is only one Child ballad on the Ireland (Barbara Allen,
by
Sarah Makem), plus a couple of other narrative songs. The Ireland was
reissued
on Ossian, by the way as OSS-15. I don't know whether it is still available.Some more recordings from Ritchie's Irish trip can be found on the CDs which
accompany the book, The Songs of Elizabeth Cronin.>>Here's the track listing for the Greenhays disc:JR: Pretty Polly
Ella Ward (Sc.): On the Banks of Red Roses
Jimmy MacBeath (Sc.): The Cuckoo's Nest
JR: The Cuckoo
Seamus Ennis (Ir.): Bog Down in the Valley-O
JR: Tree in the Valley-O
Jimmy Stewart (Sc.): Barbara Allen
Elizabeth Cronin (Ir.): Barbara Allyn
JR: Barbary Allen
JR: Froggy Went A-Coouring
Seamus Ennis: Uncle Frog Went Out to Ride
Dianne Endicott (En.): Orange and Lemon
JR: Needle's Eye
Elizabeth Cronin: A Maid in her Father's Garden
JR: A Pretty Fair Miss
Johnny Pickering (Ir.): Bonaparte's Retreat
JR: Bonaparte's Retreat
Sarah Makem (Ir.): Derry Gaol
JR: The Hangman Song
Jeannie Robertson (Sc.): When My Apron It Hung Low
JR: Careless LovePeace,
Paul

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A few years ago, Seeger & MacColl recorded a ballad
series on, i believe Blackthorn. Have these been
re-issued on CD? They were very good, and i am missing
most of the vinyl series.Cliff Abrams

I have always been curious as to why so few child ballads show up in
irish oral or written tradition. Especially considering that the lowland
scots settled in large numbers in Ulster in the 17th century, and many
latter migrated to the southern mountains of america/. I know a few rare
texts have been found in ireland, i.e., "the maid and the Palmer' and a
couple others i saw in Bronson, but on the whole judging from Bronson
and other sources not much has been recovered.Chuck Wood

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Pete:Can you say more about this "commentary" tradition?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 5:09 pm
Subject: Re: child ballads in Ireland> Hugh Shields and others made a tape called "Early Ballads in Ireland
> 1968-1985" in which they collected Child ballads performed by various
> singers.  Among
> the songs were Lord Gregory, Lord Lovett, The Creel, True Lover John, and
> several others.  Singers include Len Graham, Eddie Butcher, Brigit Murphy,
> and so
> on.  There are 20 songs on the tape.
>  The old ballads of Ireland, in Irish, aren't in the regular form of
> "ballad", in that they often don't tell a story.  Instead, you are
> supposed to know
> the story, and the ballad is a song about the story.  Eileen Aroon
> (Eibhl? a
> R?) is an example of this kind of song.
>  Pete Brady
>

Folks:I would call your attention to the latest catalogue from the British remainder
company, PostScript, which can be found online atwww.psbook.co.ukThe April 2004 catalogue lists:James Porter and Herschel Gower, _Jeannie Robertson: Emergent Singer,
Transformative Voice_ for 5.99 GPB.  The catalogue number is 25698.Emily Lyle, editor, _Andrew Crawfurd's Collection of Ballads and Songs,_ 2
vols, priced at 19.99 GPB. No. 25582 in the Postcript catalogue.And, finally, two martinis bearing down on my wearying senses:_Robert Burns's Commonplace Book 1783-1785,_ with san introduction by David
Daiches (1965), priced at 14.99 pounds, an numbered 26302 in the Postscript
catalogue.
Figure about $1.80 to the pound, and add shipping, but these are worthy
volumes for the folkk music collector.  (Skip the Burns, if you will, but do
not pass on the others.)Needless to say, I have no financial interest in either Postscript or your
purchases.
Ed

<<William Allingham, in his "Ballad Book," says therre were ballads, but
they
were all in Gaelic. And he was Irish, and he looked.Planxty's "The Well Below the Valley" (version of "The Maid and the Palmer")
was collected in Boyle, Co. Roscommon.Other than that, deponent knoweth not.>>Perhaps the Irish and Scots didn't socialize?Peace,
Paul

Just in case anyone's missed this, an excellent treatment of ballad singing
in Ireland is that by Hugh Shields, NARRATIVE SINGING IN IRELAND (Irish
Academic Press, 1993). This puts the Irish, English, and Scots ballad
traditions in Ireland into perspective. It includes, among other things, a
3-page discography which lists some very out-of-the-way recordings.Jeff Kallen
Trinity College Dublin

Hi folks,
I happened to attend a lecture at a semi-academic conference in (I believe it was)
Lahinch several years ago.  (My husband and I were mainly tourists, but we went
on John Moulden's inspiration/instigation to meet several cultural heroes of mine
-- such as Tom Munnelly, and John himself, and Lillis O Laoire, and Nicholas Carolan,
and the Crehans -- and only sort of incidentally audited the concerts and lectures.)
Alas, I don't even remember who presented the lecture.  But I do remember the main
point of it, which was that, although for the English-and-all the plot is The Thing,
the Irish would rather tell about their feelings about and reactions to the events
in the story.
        In 1993 Hugh Shields published _Narrative Singing in Ireland_, which is a
thorough study of 'lays, ballads, come-all-yes' as well as 'other songs'.  I
recommend it to you. -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Ulster Books have a copy for sale at around ?30.00Regards,Dave

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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:07:26 -0700, Cliff Abrams wrote:>A few years ago, Seeger & MacColl recorded a ballad
>series on, i believe Blackthorn. Have these been
>re-issued on CD? They were very good, and i am missing
>most of the vinyl series.
>
Yes,  this was the 5-volume, "Blood and Roses" series.  I think it was
spectacular.  Gave several examples of many "typical" mostly-Child
ballads.  Showed much drift and also full examples from US, Scotland,
England.  (I don't recall any Irish ones.)When Peggy was leaving England to return to the US, she had a good stock
of Blackthorn (& other) LPs left & did her best to distrubute them.  (She
notes that she & MacColl had a total of about 160 LPs up to his death.
There've been many more since.)Her website doesn't mention reissues but the LPs just may be somewhere.
Questions go to  General Information: [unmask]John Ross' discography is
http://www.well.com/%7Ejohnross/discographies/ewanmaccoll.htmand gives best info on latest CDs.  Including quite a few at
Smith/Folkways.But the great Riverside/Washington set hasn't been done yet.  (I've got
mine & you can't have them!)-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

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Oich!  Ignore my last post.  I was thinking of the Long Harvest series on
Folkways.  So that's excellent. Still available.On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 04:52:09 EDT, Fred McCormick wrote:>The series was called Blood and Roses and consisted largely of obscure and
>neglected Child ballads: mostly stuff which was omitted from their earlier
>series for Argo: The Long Harvest. I'm fairly certain that neither Blood and Roses
>or The Long Harvest has been reissued on CD.I'm not sure how complete this list is, but these are primary titles I
have for the B&R series.Jock o' the Side (187)
Lang Johnny More (251)
Edom o' Gordon (178)
Chylde Owlet (291)
Fair Flower of Northumberland (9)
Laird o' Wariston, The (194)
Lady Diamond (269)
Laird o' Logie, The (182)
Glenkindie (67)
Queen Eleanor's Confession (156)
Young Peggy (298)
Young Johnstone (88)
Clerk's Twa Sons O' Owsenford, The (72)
Lady Maisry (65)
Bonny Hind, The (50)
Brown Adam (98)
James Herries (243)(The Daemon Lover)
Two Magicians, The (44)
plus
Little Cabin BoyA number of what I'd call standard (Queen Eleanor was webcast this past
Sunday and I sang it last week, myself, in honor of her memorial day,
April 1st.  Although it's not common, I know.  Another, very rarely sung
one, there is one of my all-time favorites, Chylde Owlet.  A gentle song
of sideways love and marital relations.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

>Oich!  Ignore my last post.  I was thinking of the Long Harvest series on Folkways.  So that's excellent. Still available.Just ingnore me in the future.  Just add a kill-filter.  I think I'll
kill-filter me, myself.The Long Harvest was on Argo.I'm going out for a drink now.Abby-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Chuck,To throw my 2-cents into the ring...The points have already been made by Peter Brady that'The old ballads of Ireland, in Irish, aren't in the regular form of
"ballad", in that they often don't tell a story.  Instead, you are supposed
to know the story, and the ballad is a song about the story.  Eileen Aroon
(Eibhl? a R?) is an example of this kind of song.'Professor Child would not have taken these as ballads in his sense of
collecting.  But more to the point of your question is that Child put out
several calls/advertisements for ballads from Irish sources but had only a
few responders.  I believe that there are something like four Irish sources
in his lists of sources for The English and Scottish Ballads.Child does offer notes on Gaelic ballads from the Irish tradition but, of
course, he is paying attention, and writing about the English language
ballads.  In particular he mentions the folklore and stories of western
Ireland from manuscript.More to your question:
We should remember that much of Irish culture was under the English thumb
for the couple of hundred years leading up to Child's collecting time.  Thus
the English language ballads that he did collect from Irish sources were
already in the English and Scottish traditions.More contemporarily, many of the songs, performed in English but, sung as
Irish ballads are late 18th-century or are 19th-century pieces from the
immigrant/emigrant or Napoleonic or other war experiences.  Child would have
side-stepped these as too contemporary to include in his search for "oral
literature".David M. Kleiman
President & CEO
Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.
The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (digital edition)-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On Behalf Of
Chuck Wood
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 4:24 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: child ballads in IrelandI have always been curious as to why so few child ballads show up in
irish oral or written tradition. Especially considering that the lowland
scots settled in large numbers in Ulster in the 17th century, and many
latter migrated to the southern mountains of america/. I know a few rare
texts have been found in ireland, i.e., "the maid and the Palmer' and a
couple others i saw in Bronson, but on the whole judging from Bronson
and other sources not much has been recovered.Chuck Wood

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Thanks to Fred, Heather and Abby for your replies on
Blood&Roses (i'd forgotten the title). Got a message
from Peggy Seeger (!) saying, essentially, that they
come up on Ebay, and there i will look.C.

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On Wed, Apr 14, 2004 at 11:31:12AM -0700, Cliff Abrams wrote:
>
> Thanks to Fred, Heather and Abby for your replies on
> Blood&Roses (i'd forgotten the title). Got a message
> from Peggy Seeger (!) saying, essentially, that they
> come up on Ebay, and there i will look.
>
> C.
>
She is right - they do appear occasionally as individual records and
complete sets. I have not been listing them because I assumed that they
were available on CD like so much else. Boy - was I wrong! From now on,
if a copy turns up, onto my Ebay list it goes!                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Fred and Everyone:Okay.  Assume that the Irish are not "native" ballad singers.  But then how
account for the vast repertoire of myth and folk tale told into the 20th C.?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 11:29 am
Subject: Re: Child ballads in Ireland> Hi Folks,
>
> A few off the cuff remarks, regarding the prevalance or otherwise of Child
> ballads in Ireland. First of all, authorities are agreed that the narrative
> ballad is not native to Gaelic Ireland; the exception being the Fenian lay.
> However, the Fenian lay appears to have emerged roughly around the same
> time as the
> Norman invasion, and I suspect that the genre's survival owed more to the
> tastes of the Norman aristocracy than to the native Irish.
>
> Otherwise, the lack of narrative ballad traditions in any of the Gaelic
> speaking regions is very striking and may be due to the verbose nature of
> Gaelic,or perhaps to some element of Gaelic social culture.
>
> Regarding Child ballads which have been recovered in Ireland, again none are
> native, being imports from England or Scotland. Also, I suspect that most are
> late arrivals. IE., their arrival in Ireland would have postdated the spread
> of the English language in the nineteenth century and were probably due to the
> movements of English speaking migrant workers, enlistees in the British army,
> or whatever.
>
> (EG., I once heard a devastating performance of The Dowy Dens of Yarrow at
> four o' clock in the morning in the Ballyliffin Hotel, Inishowen, Donegal, and
> asked Tom Munnelly whether he'd ever collected that ballad in Ireland. He
> replied that he'd collected about fourteen different versions and then
> added "but
> always in tatty howking areas". In other words, TDDOY was only known in
> regionswhich suppplied Irish labour for the Scots potato harvest.
>
> It is true, as Chuck Wood pointed out, that earlier generations of Protestant
> planters would have brought a great many ballads into Ulster. However,
> language barriers must have played a large part in preventing assimilation
> of these
> by the native Irish. Also, the impression I have formed from reading various
> sources is that the planters were regarded as isolationist and irascible and
> they generally did not mix with the natives. (I have heard of someone who is
> writing a book which apparently contradicts this, but I know not who the
> authoris. I shall though await his findings with interest.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick.
>
> In a message dated 13/04/2004 21:35:24 GMT Standard Time, [unmask] writes:
>
> > I have always been curious as to why so few child ballads show up in
> > irish oral or written tradition. Especially considering that the lowland
> > scots settled in large numbers in Ulster in the 17th century, and many
> > latter migrated to the southern mountains of america/. I know a few rare
> > texts have been found in ireland, i.e., "the maid and the Palmer' and a
> > couple others i saw in Bronson, but on the whole judging from Bronson
> > and other sources not much has been recovered.
> >
> > Chuck Wood
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

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Dick:I hesitate -- nay, I shudder -- to disagree with you, but I personally cannot
label as "trivial" FJC's dismissal of "The Frog and the Mouse."Substitute actual names, such as "Davy Faa" or "Lady Margaret" for "Mr. Frog"
and "Missie Mouse," et voila, you have a true ballad, coded, to be sure, but a
ballad nonetheless.The truth is that we cannot _know_ for sure what the great canonist
(canoneer?) thought, but recovered texts of this ballad are not only free of
the "contamination" of print, but stand at least at least as old as those
among the 305 our goodman enshrined.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 7:28 pm
Subject: Re: child ballads in Ireland> Mark-
> As I recall, FJ didn't like Molly Bawn--I dimly recall some unkind words
> I've  seen attributed to him on the subject. I must confess to a lack of
> understanding on my part as to what Child included and why--Certainly
> Frog's Wedding is trivial, but no more so than Whummil Bore or Barring
> of the Door. Bruton Town (Bamboo Briar) prolly also belongs.
>
> dick greenhaus
>
>
> [unmask] wrote:
>
> > Don't forget that Child was planning an 11th volume to his ballad
> > ouvre.  My recollection is that Molly Bawn was one of the ballads
> > which at least appeared in his notes, although that does not mean he
> > planned to include it.  Some clues about his intentions may be gleaned
> > from his correspondance with Gruntvig.  He probably considered it to
> > be Irish, and therefore not one of the "English and Scottish"
> > ballads.  Eggs and Marrowbones might have been dismissed as "trivial"
> > as well as non-English.  Certainly that was his reason for not
> > including "A Frog He Would a Wooing Go" and several other popular
> > humorous ballads.
> >
> > Mark Gilston
>
>

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From what I understand, "Froggie Went a Courtin'" was first printed in
the 16th century (1584, I think) in Scotland as a commentary on the
upcoming nuptuals of the English queen, or so the story goes. All of the
wedding guests were supposedly members of Parliament at the time. Brutal
ending to a wedding party, in any case.Beth Brooks>>> [unmask] 04/15/04 4:33 AM >>>
Ed,Interesting ! Are you suggesting that The Frog and the Mouse was a
camouflaged political song ? I must confess I've always regarded it as
nothing more than
a humorous take on froggie's notoriously promiscuous mating habits.Cheers,Fred McCormick.In a message dated 15/04/2004 05:11:13 GMT Standard Time, [unmask]
writes:
>
> Dick:
>
> I hesitate -- nay, I shudder -- to disagree with you, but I personally
cannot
> label as "trivial" FJC's dismissal of "The Frog and the Mouse."
>
> Substitute actual names, such as "Davy Faa" or "Lady Margaret" for
"Mr. Frog"
> and "Missie Mouse," et voila, you have a true ballad, coded, to be
sure, but
> a
> ballad nonetheless.
>
> The truth is that we cannot _know_ for sure what the great canonist
> (canoneer?) thought, but recovered texts of this ballad are not only
free of
> the "contamination" of print, but stand at least at least as old as
those
> among the 305 our goodman enshrined.
>
>

Ed,A million thanks for posting this; I didn't know about the PostScript site.  Though I'm sorry to see it remaindered, the Crawfurd set at 20 GBP is an excellent buy.  It was over 60 pounds to order both volumes directly from the Scottish Text Society.Cheers
Jamie

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James:You're welcome.And I do appreciate what a bargain the two volume Crawfurd set is.  I bout it
from the Scottish Text Society.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: James Moreira <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:41 am
Subject: Re: Remainders> Ed,
>
> A million thanks for posting this; I didn't know about the PostScript
> site.  Though I'm sorry to see it remaindered, the Crawfurd set at 20 GBP
> is an excellent buy.  It was over 60 pounds to order both volumes directly
> from the Scottish Text Society.
>
> Cheers
> Jamie
>

 From "The Rock Island Line," by Harry C. Morrison (copyrighted):Oh, the Rock Island girls, they are charming down here
You can tell by their looks, they are kind and sincere
Every night of the week they are all here combined
For to kick up a Shindig on the Rock Island Line.They dance 'till the sweat runs in streams down their clothes
And the rough shanty floor tears the nails from their toes
For fun and for frolic their's [sic] none can outshine
The Rim racking belles of the Rock Island Line.What does "Rim racking" mean here?  When I Googled this expression,
all I got were descriptions of basketball games.What is really being said about these women?  Are the sentiments
expressed in the first of the verses above meant to be sarcastic
humor?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Folks:According to those most excellent scholars, Iona and Peter Opie, the ballad of
strange courtship of the Frog and the Mouse "may be traced through four
centuries" to _The Complaynt of Scotlande_ (1549) where it is mentioned as one
of the "sueit melodius sangis" shepherds sang under the title of "The frog cam
to the myl dur."  (Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymnes, p. 179).They specifically discount any reference or satire of Charles II (nicknamed
"Old Rowley") in versions which bear the refrain: "Heigho, says Rowley" since
those texts do not appear before the eighteenth century.Who else might be satirized by the ballad is anyone's guess.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:35 am
Subject: Re: child ballads in Ireland> From what I understand, "Froggie Went a Courtin'" was first printed in
> the 16th century (1584, I think) in Scotland as a commentary on the
> upcoming nuptuals of the English queen, or so the story goes. All of the
> wedding guests were supposedly members of Parliament at the time. Brutal
> ending to a wedding party, in any case.
>
> Beth Brooks
>
> >>> [unmask] 04/15/04 4:33 AM >>>
> Ed,
>
> Interesting ! Are you suggesting that The Frog and the Mouse was a
> camouflaged political song ? I must confess I've always regarded it as
> nothing more than
> a humorous take on froggie's notoriously promiscuous mating habits.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick.
>
> In a message dated 15/04/2004 05:11:13 GMT Standard Time, [unmask]
> writes:
> >
> > Dick:
> >
> > I hesitate -- nay, I shudder -- to disagree with you, but I personally
> cannot
> > label as "trivial" FJC's dismissal of "The Frog and the Mouse."
> >
> > Substitute actual names, such as "Davy Faa" or "Lady Margaret" for
> "Mr. Frog"
> > and "Missie Mouse," et voila, you have a true ballad, coded, to be
> sure, but
> > a
> > ballad nonetheless.
> >
> > The truth is that we cannot _know_ for sure what the great canonist
> > (canoneer?) thought, but recovered texts of this ballad are not only
> free of
> > the "contamination" of print, but stand at least at least as old as
> those
> > among the 305 our goodman enshrined.
> >
> >
>

Fred:Great memory after all those years!  I just reread the Curtin tale which he
translated from the telling of a Gaelic informant (incidentally, Douglas Hyde
dismissed Curtin's knowledge of Gaelic).  You got the gist of the story,
except that the girl encounters three robbers (sheep thieves), and kills two.
When she returns home (and claims the 100 pound reward for each head), she
somewhat later is courted by a dark horseman -- the third of the three
robbers, of course -- who courts her, wins her despite her suspicion he is a
villain, and then tries to kill her in the woods.He tells her to take off her gown while stopping in the woods at night
(couldn't resist that), and she pulls the old turn-your-back-while-I-undress
trick.  When he of sensitive nature does so, she cuts off his head with a
sword she has conveniently strapped to her waist.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2004 2:18 am
Subject: Re: child ballads in Ireland> Hi John,
>
> There were indeed very few translations of Child ballads into Gaelic.
> Moreover, of the ones which do exist, I think it would be more accurate to
> regardthem as rewrites. However, here are a couple more:-
>
> A version of The Cherry Tree Carol in Douglas Hyde's Saints and Sinners.
> A Donegal song on Leader LEA 4055, British Ballads From Donegal and Derry,
> called Baile Leo, which Hugh Shields identifies as a version of Child 10.
> Kinsella and O Tuama, An Duanaire; Poems of the Dispossessed, claim that Ce
> Sin ar mo Thuama (Who is on my Grave), is a version of the Unquiet Grave.
>
> Finally, there is something in Jeremiah Curtin's Tales of the Fairies, a
> collection of folktales translated from the Gaelic, which may be relevant. I
> haven't read the book in about thirty years, but I recall a story in it which
> seemed to resemble The Outlandish Knight. At any rate, it concerned a
> robber who
> elopes with a girl, whom he tries to kill, but who is despatched by her. Which
> leaves me wondering if any Gaelic versions of The Outlandish Knight ever
> existed.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick.
>
> In a message dated 14/04/2004 21:34:38 GMT Standard Time, [unmask]
> writes:
>
>
> > Very few of the Child ballad stories were assimilated into the Irish
> > language - Lord Randall, The two sisters being the only two which come
> unbidden to
> > mind.
> >
>
>
>

John:Wentworth and Flexnoir's _Dictionary of American Slang_ (c. 1960) defines "rim-
rack as a verb meaning "to ruin another or cause another to fail, usu. by
deception."  It comes, according to Mathews' _Dictionary of Americanisms_ from
the practice of deliberately killing herds of sheep by running them over rim-
rocks, the rocks lining a creek or stream or cliff.It is decidedly an unfavorable description of the ladies.One wonders if  the Rock Island ladies might be (ahem) fallen angels.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:30 am
Subject: Rim racking belles> From "The Rock Island Line," by Harry C. Morrison (copyrighted):
>
> Oh, the Rock Island girls, they are charming down here
> You can tell by their looks, they are kind and sincere
> Every night of the week they are all here combined
> For to kick up a Shindig on the Rock Island Line.
>
> They dance 'till the sweat runs in streams down their clothes
> And the rough shanty floor tears the nails from their toes
> For fun and for frolic their's [sic] none can outshine
> The Rim racking belles of the Rock Island Line.
>
>
> What does "Rim racking" mean here?  When I Googled this expression,
> all I got were descriptions of basketball games.
>
> What is really being said about these women?  Are the sentiments
> expressed in the first of the verses above meant to be sarcastic
> humor?
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Folks:As I was erasing messages in my inbox, it occurred to me that some of you might be interested in this exchange between Dick and me.  If I have erred, forgive me.Ed
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From     edward cray <[unmask]>
Sent    Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:58 am
To      [unmask]
Subject         Re: Ramblin' ManDick:On behalf of the Guthrie Childrens Trust Fund, Woody's songs were copyrighted
by Harold Leventhal in the 1950s and 1960s.  There were some copyright earlier
by music publisher Howard Richmond, aka TRO [The Richmond Organization].  And
Jack Guthrie stole "Oklahoma Hills" and copyrighted it in 1945, then revised
the copyright to add his cousin's name when Woody complained.  Woody himself
did mail some songs to himself so as to prove ownership, or so I am told, but
I never saw evidence of it.Responding to your other points:I suspect that Woody had something more (or less in mind) when Dylan and
Elliott performed his songs.  Woody was too ill (?) to make much of a fuss, or
even perhaps to realize just how much they were imitating Woody.  It was John
Cohen who told me he saw a young Dylan at Folk City and realized Dylan was
imitating the stricken Guthrie.As for Gerlach imitating Leadbelly, you may be right.I agree with you that the CP and fellow travelers suspended judgment when it
came to party dictates.  (Which is one reason why as liberal or radical as my
politics might be I never even considered joining the party.)But what I WAS trying to do in _Ramblin' Man_ is portray those who did follow
the party line as passionate, committed people who believed less in Moscow
than in the American ideal of equal justice and a fair distribution of wealth.
I knew some of them, by the 1960s almost all of them ex-CPs, and had the
opportunity to see them not as puppets but as people.I think I succeeded in that both Leventhal and Pete Seeger, former members of
the CP, read the manuscript for errors.  Harold later described the book to me
as "honest, fair and painful."  Which I took as high praise.I thank you for your kind comments re: _Ramblin' Man_ and ask you keep this
letter confidential only because I never asked Harold for permission to use
his quote.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:02 am
Subject: RAmblin' Man> Hi Ed-
> Just finished it, and liked it quite a lot. I'm intrigued by a couple
> three things: You state (in the intro) that Woody never copyrighted any
> of his thousands  of songs. Mebbe so, but someone sure as hell did.
> Digital Tradition has been forced to remove several of Woody's songs at
> the insistence of his publisher, and the (Almost) Complete Woody Guthrie
> Songbook claims rights on words and music (emphasis mine)  for every
> song therein.  Amusing, when one considers that Woody didn't originate
> any music.
>
> I was amused by Woody's resonse to Fred Gerlach's 12-string guitar
> playing--a dislike of slavish imitation didn't seem to extend to either
> Rambling Jack nor Bob Dylan. Fairly typical of Woody as I remember him.
>
> The thing that confuses me, and disturbs me a bit, has nothing to do
> with your reportage--it's always seemed odd to me that all these
> idealogues didn't seem to be violently disturbed by the Party Line
> switches re. Soviet/German  reationship changes. Non-performing
> left-wngers I knew--remember, I was a kid then--were profoundly
> disturbed when Stalin and Hitler became allies, and were either
> profoundly relieved or totally disillusioned by the official line switch
> when Germany invaded Russia. In Ramblin' Man, the attitude seems to be
> "wotthehell. We e have to make up a new setlist."
>
> Re. Browder's ouster, I can recall the not-quite-faithful singing:
>
> "Browder is our leader, he must be removed,
> Browder is our leader, he must be removed,
> Just like a tree that's standing in the highway
> He must be removed."
>
> Anyway, congratulations on a fine job.
>
> dick greenhaus
>

Dick Greenhaus wrote:> The thing that confuses me, and disturbs me a bit, has nothing to do
> with your reportage--it's always seemed odd to me that all these
> idealogues didn't seem to be violently disturbed by the Party Line
> switches re. Soviet/German  reationship changes. Non-performing
> left-wngers I knew--remember, I was a kid then--were profoundly
> disturbed when Stalin and Hitler became allies, and were either
> profoundly relieved or totally disillusioned by the official line switch
> when Germany invaded Russia. In Ramblin' Man, the attitude seems to be
> "wotthehell. We e have to make up a new setlist."I asked Pete Seeger about this a year ago in a not-yet-published interview,
and he said that when the Nazi-Soviet pact was signed and the Line became
opposition to the "capitalist war", he *was* disturbed, but he said he felt
very young and inexperienced, and felt like the leaders of the Party, with
much more experience of the world, must know what they were talking about.
So he went along, but uneasily. (I could relate to that; in the early 70s I
had roommates who were, like me, involved in New Left activities, and when I
piped up and expressed doubt about some of our more self-destructive
tendencies, like preaching to the converted and playing 'more radical than
thou' games, they told me I didn't have enough experience in politics and
should listen more. Well, I listened, and, uncharacteristically, I shut up
for a while. In retrospect, I think I was mostly right. But I digress.
Anyway, it's a dynamic that it's awfully easy to fall into if you're young
and green as well as red.)Peace,
Paul

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I don't know why Child-type ballads didn't spread as widely in Gaelic
Ireland as they did elsewhere -- I think we'd want to know more about the
spread of these ballads in other non-English speaking areas to know what
happens when the tales and tunes transcend language boundaries in order to
know why they spread the way they do. Then we might know more about why
they do NOT spread. (I'm not saying that nobody knows about Child ballads
outside the English-speaking world, just that I don't. Maybe someone can
help on this point.)But there's one thing I would be confident about which is that the
explanation doesn't lie with the Irish language itself:>I can come up with three possible reasons. Firstly, I'm not a Gaelic
>speaker, but from what little I know of the language, it strikes me as too
>verbose to carry the ballad form easily.Think about it this way. There are, after all, some ballads that have
transferred into Irish, so it is at least possible to make the jump. But
more to the point is the fact that there are thousands and thousands of
songs in Irish -- the language itself is perfectly well suited to a wide
range of tunes (nowadays the language takes in rock and pop, too), and
there's no intrinsic reason why the familiar plots, verse structure, and
refrains of ballads couldn't end up with tunes and Irish lyrics. Not only
that, Irish songs have displayed great ingenuity in the so-called
'macaronic' tradition, which intersperses lines (or verses) of English and
Irish without missing a beat. The macaronic songs show great linguistic
agility and more or less show that you can do the same things in both
languages if you're so inclined. The simple descriptions of character and
event that we know of in Child ballads could certainly be done in Irish, if
the need was there to provide them. Sure, the resulting text won't show the
syntax of English and so there would be a lot of reworking to get from
English to Irish, but the barrier isn't in the language itself. If you
started with an English verse and wanted to put it into Irish, of course,
you'd have to be fluent in both languages -- but isn't that the problem
with all cases of cross-linguistic diffusion? That's why I suggest that if
we knew more about all those non-English parallels to Child ballads which
Child refers to in his notes, we might know more about the 'why' and 'why
not' of how ballad traditions spread across languages and cultures.Further comments:>Secondly, there is the question of Gaelic social culture. As you're
>obviously aware, Gaelic folktalkes tend to be massiveSome are long, and some are short. Any collection of Irish stories taken
from oral tradition will show short and long stories! And of course some
ballads are longer than others -- by this logic, shouldn't the Irish have
liked the longest ballads?!>and that reflects the fact that Gaels are an extremely talkative lot.
>They like rhetoric and hyperbole and colourful description. So the pithy
>nature of the ballad would probably have a very limited appeal to them.Huh? Surely you're not suggesting that 'talkative' people don't like
ballads. American Southerners, in my experience, also like rhetoric and
hyperbole (who doesn't?) -- and I believe you can find a ballad or two in
the South! Pithy underdescription is something which in Ireland can be
practised to a finer degree of art than anything I've ever seen in America
-- it's all a matter of knowing when to talk, and when to say much by
saying nothing. (Or indeed as the Irish saying goes, 'whatever you say, say
nothing'.) So I don't really think the answer lies here.>Finally, I mentioned a possible correlation between ballads and feudalism,
>and I'm aware that I may be guilty of making an unqualified
>generalisation. IE., Was every single European ballad tradition the
>product of a feudal society ? Did the ballad arise out of feudalism, or
>was its emergence due to other factors which were around at the time ? I
>don't know.Good question. Not only do we need to know more about the spread of
balladry, we need comparative studies of the societies which give rise to
or support the ballad tradition. And it might just be that Irish society,
which really included two distinct societies in different relationships
from the coming of the Anglo-Normans in 1169 until relatively recently, had
factors that made it less suppportive of balladry than others -- but what
are the factors?(Those interested in Irish macaronic songs should consult Diarmaid O
Muirithe's *An tAmhr? Macar?ach* (Dublin: An Cl?homhar Tta, 1980. It's
in Irish, but since the songs themselves are in English and Irish you can
see what's going on even if you don't know Irish.)I could see this evolving into a massive European cultural history project
(what about ballads in Spain? What about Turkish troubadours? etc. etc.)
... or maybe someone has already done the work?Jeff Kallen
Trinity College Dublin

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On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 20:11:27 EDT, [unmask] wrote:>Eggs and Marrowbones might have been dismissed as
>"trivial" as well as non-English.  Certainly that was his reason for not including
>"A Frog He Would a Wooing Go" and several other popular humorous ballads.It would be great if there really were a definitive note from the Prof,
himself, as to his criteria for inclusion.  I think all that is _really_
known is in the title.  English or Scottish - Popular - Ballad.In a note on The Old She-Crab, in Randolph/Legman, Legman says this was in
Percy which Child helped assemble (so Child was certainly familiar with
it!) Child, said, Legman omitted this as he didn't use ballads about which
the main character was an animal!!!Well... but still...We know from Child's previous work on the ballad that he considered many
others beyond E&SPB "worthy" and "ballads."  The big exclusion area seemed
to be "popular" as opposed to "broadside."Separately, isn't Reynardine generally taken to be Irish?-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
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On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 08:35:24 -0500, Beth Brooks wrote:>From what I understand, "Froggie Went a Courtin'" was first printed in
>the 16th century (1584, I think) in Scotland as a commentary on the
>upcoming nuptuals of the English queen, or so the story goes. All of the
>wedding guests were supposedly members of Parliament at the time. Brutal
>ending to a wedding party, in any case.Ah!  Dates!  A job for the "Happy" file!Entered in the Register of the London Co. of Stationers for 11/21/1580: "A
moste Strange Weddinge of the Frogge and the Mowse" (likely 1st mentioned
in Wedderburn's _Complaynt of Scotland_ in 1549 re an older song, at the
time of the proposed (unpopular) marriage of Queen Elizabeth I to the Duc
d'Alenco. Theodore Raph reports, in A Treasury of American Popular Music
(A.S. Barnes and Company, 1964), that the title in The Complaynt was "The
Frog Cam to the Myl Dur [mill door]."  First text published 1611. For what
it's worth, Patricia Hackett gives in _The Melody Book_, Prentice Hall,
1983) that this song was originally a satire of Queen Elizabeth's habit of
referring to her ministers by animal nicknames. She called Sir Walter
Raleigh her "fish," the French Ambassador Simier her "ape," and the Duc
d'Alencon her "frog." see http://www.concentric.net/~Highl14/froggy.htmlDisillusioningly, I was informed a coupala years back that entry in the
Stationers' Register only held protection for the London area.  The
material might have non-illegally been plagiarized from, say, Plymouth the
week before or to there the week after.  Thus, these entries don't suggest
an earliest date, just a possible one.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
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Fred:These are sound hypotheses, worthy of examination.  Would that I had the wit (and the library) to do the considerable work involved.  (I suspect it would take another F.J. Child to master the languages.)Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, April 16, 2004 2:55 am
Subject: Re: Child ballads in Ireland> Hi Ed,
>
> I really don't know the answer to that, except that myths and folktales are
> universal in traditional societies, where Child type ballads are not.
> Indeed, I
> wonder how much appeal the ballad format had outside feudal societies.
>
> To my mind, the ponderable question is why, when the ballad was a predominant
> form throughout Europe, it never penetrated any of the Gaelic speaking
> regions.
>
> I can come up with three possible reasons. Firstly, I'm not a Gaelic speaker,
> but from what little I know of the language, it strikes me as too verbose to
> carry the ballad form easily.
>
> Secondly, there is the question of Gaelic social culture. As you're obviously
> aware, Gaelic folktalkes tend to be massive and that reflects the fact that
> Gaels are an extremely talkative lot. They like rhetoric and hyperbole and
> colourful description. So the pithy nature of the ballad would probably
> have a
> very limited appeal to them.
>
> Finally, I mentioned a possible correlation between ballads and feudalism,
> and I'm aware that I may be guilty of making an unqualified generalisation.
> IE.,Was every single European ballad tradition the product of a feudal
> society ?
> Did the ballad arise out of feudalism, or was its emergence due to other
> factors which were around at the time ? I don't know. Also, I honestly
> don't know
> whether the type of society which was ushered in by the Norman conquest of
> Ireland could be described as feudal. It's true that the Normans introduced
> feudalism to England, but what applied in Norman rule of England might not
> have been
> quite so readily applicable to the kind of society which existed in Ireland.
> Anyway, if there is a correlation between ballads and feudalism, and Ireland
> never experienced a period of feudalism, perhaps that could be where the
> answerlies.
>
> If anybody has any thoughts on any of these points, particularly on the last
> one, I'd be glad to hear from them.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred.
>
> In a message dated 14/04/2004 23:19:59 GMT Standard Time, [unmask] writes:
>
>
> > Fred and Everyone:
> >
> > Okay.  Assume that the Irish are not "native" ballad singers.  But then how
> > account for the vast repertoire of myth and folk tale told into the 20th C.?
> >
> > Ed
>
>
>

>John:
>
>Wentworth and Flexnoir's _Dictionary of American Slang_ (c. 1960)
>defines "rim-
>rack as a verb meaning "to ruin another or cause another to fail, usu. by
>deception."  It comes, according to Mathews' _Dictionary of Americanisms_ from
>the practice of deliberately killing herds of sheep by running them over rim-
>rocks, the rocks lining a creek or stream or cliff.
>
>It is decidedly an unfavorable description of the ladies.
>
>One wonders if  the Rock Island ladies might be (ahem) fallen angels.Thanks, Ed.  That makes perfect sense.  Who else, I suppose, would be
hanging around backwoods, 19th-century railroad construction camps in
great numbers?  "...they are charming down here.  You can tell by
their looks, they are kind and sincere" is sarcasm.>
>Ed
>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Garst <[unmask]>
>Date: Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:30 am
>Subject: Rim racking belles
>
>>  From "The Rock Island Line," by Harry C. Morrison (copyrighted):
>>
>>  Oh, the Rock Island girls, they are charming down here
>>  You can tell by their looks, they are kind and sincere
>>  Every night of the week they are all here combined
>>  For to kick up a Shindig on the Rock Island Line.
>>
>>  They dance 'till the sweat runs in streams down their clothes
>>  And the rough shanty floor tears the nails from their toes
>>  For fun and for frolic their's [sic] none can outshine
>>  The Rim racking belles of the Rock Island Line.
>>
>>
>>  What does "Rim racking" mean here?  When I Googled this expression,
>>  all I got were descriptions of basketball games.
>>
>>  What is really being said about these women?  Are the sentiments
>>  expressed in the first of the verses above meant to be sarcastic
>>  humor?
>>
>>  Thanks.
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]
>>--
john garst    [unmask]

Fred:In the preface to _Beside the Fire_, Douglas Hyde writes of the "American gentleman," Jeremiah Curtin, who gathered tales from Gaelic speakers in the south and northwest of Ireland.  "He has collected some twenty tales, which are told very well, and with much less cooking and flavouring than his predecessors emplyed.  Mr. Curtin tells us that he has taken his tales from the old Gaelic-speaking men; but he must have done so through the awkward medium of an interpreter, for his ignorance of the commonest Irish words is as startling as Lady Wilde's."  (Ed: That is Ernest's mother.)Hyde is criticizing Curtin in 1910 (this before he becomes the first president of the Republic of Ireland), and he is criticizing the LAST of Curtin's four volumes of Irish myths and folktales.  What makes this so interesting is that the redoubtable folklorists Seamus O Duilearga and Sean O Suilleabhain thought quite highly of Curtin's collecting.  (See the introduction to _Irish Folk-Tales Collected by Jeremiah Curtin (1835-1906)_.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, April 16, 2004 2:56 am
Subject: Re: child ballads in Ireland> Hi Ed,
>
> That's the one. As I understand it, Curtin was able to speak Gaelic, in fact
> he was an extremely versatile linguist and folklorist, but did not consider
> himself sufficiently well versed to transcribe accurately in that language. So
> he used translators, and the storyteller would give a sentence or two, and
> thenpause while the translator would translate and Curtin would write the
> translation down. Apart from being a cumbersome way of doing things, it
> throws up a
> question mark against the accuracy of his collections, compared with other
> collectors of the day. Bloomin' marvellous stories though ! If anybody out
> therehas never read Curtin, you really ought to get to grips immediately.
>
> Regarding the story of the girl and the robbers, it was the decapitation
> scene which put me in mind of The Outlandish Knight. But the
> turn-your-back-while-I-undress routine makes me wonder how dumb and daft
> some of these robbers must
> have been. It fair reminds me of an old Huckleberry Hound cartoon where the
> narrator says "you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can
> fool old Huck most any old time".
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred.
>
> In a message dated 15/04/2004 22:46:25 GMT Standard Time, [unmask] writes:
>
> > Fred:
> >
> > Great memory after all those years!  I just reread the Curtin tale which he
> > translated from the telling of a Gaelic informant (incidentally, Douglas
> Hyde> dismissed Curtin's knowledge of Gaelic).  You got the gist of the story,
> > except that the girl encounters three robbers (sheep thieves), and kills
> two.> When she returns home (and claims the 100 pound reward for each
> head), she
> > somewhat later is courted by a dark horseman -- the third of the three
> > robbers, of course -- who courts her, wins her despite her suspicion he
> is a
> > villain, and then tries to kill her in the woods.
> >
> > He tells her to take off her gown while stopping in the woods at night
> > (couldn't resist that), and she pulls the old turn-your-back-while-I-undress
> > trick.  When he of sensitive nature does so, she cuts off his head with a
> > sword she has conveniently strapped to her waist.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
>
>
>

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:30:51 -0400, John Garst wrote:> From "The Rock Island Line," by Harry C. Morrison (copyrighted):
>
>Oh, the Rock Island girls, they are charming down here
>You can tell by their looks, they are kind and sincere
>Every night of the week they are all here combined
>For to kick up a Shindig on the Rock Island Line.
>
>They dance 'till the sweat runs in streams down their clothes
>And the rough shanty floor tears the nails from their toes
>For fun and for frolic their's [sic] none can outshine
>The Rim racking belles of the Rock Island Line.This is a new song to me.  I have no better suggestion than Ed's but then
Ed once told me to look in Partridge's dictionary first.  Partridge
doesn't have 'rimrack' but it has:
rim = to bugger (a woman)
on the rack = Canadian coll. for Always on the move.Two litle observations - that "Rim" is capitalized - a name.  Acronym
for...Rock Island ...Mime?  Mommas?And the DigTrad version gives:Now the young railroad girls, therc are plenty 'round here   [ocr error]
You can tell by their actions they are kind and sincere.
For each Sunday evening they all do combine
For to raise a shindig on the Rock Island Line.Then thcy dance till they sweat, and they wet all their clothes
Till the old shantyboys tear the nails from their toes,
But for fun and for dancin', there's none can outshine
All those charming young belles on thc Rock Island Line.The implication to me is that one version is a bawdy/parlor version taken
from the other.  In other words, I suggest the DigTrad version "knew"
John's version was bawdy.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
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On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 21:37:47 -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:>I asked Pete Seeger about this a year ago in a not-yet-published interview,
>and he said that when the Nazi-Soviet pact was signed and the Line became
>opposition to the "capitalist war", he *was* disturbed, but he said he felt
>very young and inexperienced, and felt like the leaders of the Party, with
>much more experience of the world, must know what they were talking about.
>So he went along, but uneasily.Some of this, and the subsequent embarrassment is outlined by Logsdon's
ever-good notes to Almanac Singers, _That's Why We're Marching_;
Smith/Folk CD, 1996 (orig. 1940-44)-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
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Ed: So much for not quoting Harold in public! As for the issue about Woody, Paul Robeson, Pete, etc. backing non-intervention following the Nazi-Soviet pact, I strongly agree that they and many others in or near the Party believed that the capitalist countries should fight it out, following their earlier anti-Nazi feelings. They were all still very anti-Nazi, but were disillusioned with the allies partly because of their refusal to back the Spanish government during the civil war. This is all very complicated stuff. Some of these issues are dealt with in the notes to the 10-cd boxed set by Bear Family Records, SONGS FOR POLITICAL ACTION (produced by Dave Samuelson and myself), which includes the Almanacs' JOHN DOE album of anti-war songs, and also some by Robeson. Pete's somewhat apology appears in the Almanac's pro-war album, DEAR MR. PRESIDENT, also included in SONGS FOR POLITICAL ACTION. Ronald Cohen
> ----------
> From:         Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of edward cray
> Reply To:     Forum for ballad scholars
> Sent:         Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:07 PM
> To:   [unmask]
> Subject:      Fwd: Re: RAmblin' Man
>
> <<Message: Re: RAmblin' Man>>
> Folks:
>
> As I was erasing messages in my inbox, it occurred to me that some of you might be interested in this exchange between Dick and me.  If I have erred, forgive me.
>
> Ed
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From     edward cray <[unmask]>
> Sent    Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:58 am
> To      [unmask]
> Subject         Re: Ramblin' Man
>
> Dick:
>
> On behalf of the Guthrie Childrens Trust Fund, Woody's songs were copyrighted
> by Harold Leventhal in the 1950s and 1960s.  There were some copyright earlier
> by music publisher Howard Richmond, aka TRO [The Richmond Organization].  And
> Jack Guthrie stole "Oklahoma Hills" and copyrighted it in 1945, then revised
> the copyright to add his cousin's name when Woody complained.  Woody himself
> did mail some songs to himself so as to prove ownership, or so I am told, but
> I never saw evidence of it.
>
> Responding to your other points:
>
> I suspect that Woody had something more (or less in mind) when Dylan and
> Elliott performed his songs.  Woody was too ill (?) to make much of a fuss, or
> even perhaps to realize just how much they were imitating Woody.  It was John
> Cohen who told me he saw a young Dylan at Folk City and realized Dylan was
> imitating the stricken Guthrie.
>
> As for Gerlach imitating Leadbelly, you may be right.
>
> I agree with you that the CP and fellow travelers suspended judgment when it
> came to party dictates.  (Which is one reason why as liberal or radical as my
> politics might be I never even considered joining the party.)
>
> But what I WAS trying to do in _Ramblin' Man_ is portray those who did follow
> the party line as passionate, committed people who believed less in Moscow
> than in the American ideal of equal justice and a fair distribution of wealth.
> I knew some of them, by the 1960s almost all of them ex-CPs, and had the
> opportunity to see them not as puppets but as people.
>
> I think I succeeded in that both Leventhal and Pete Seeger, former members of
> the CP, read the manuscript for errors.  Harold later described the book to me
> as "honest, fair and painful."  Which I took as high praise.
>
> I thank you for your kind comments re: _Ramblin' Man_ and ask you keep this
> letter confidential only because I never asked Harold for permission to use
> his quote.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> Date: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:02 am
> Subject: RAmblin' Man
>
> > Hi Ed-
> > Just finished it, and liked it quite a lot. I'm intrigued by a couple
> > three things: You state (in the intro) that Woody never copyrighted any
> > of his thousands  of songs. Mebbe so, but someone sure as hell did.>
> > Digital Tradition has been forced to remove several of Woody's songs at
> > the insistence of his publisher, and the (Almost) Complete Woody Guthrie
> > Songbook claims rights on words and music (emphasis mine)  for every
> > song therein.  Amusing, when one considers that Woody didn't originate
> > any music.
> >
> > I was amused by Woody's resonse to Fred Gerlach's 12-string guitar
> > playing--a dislike of slavish imitation didn't seem to extend to either
> > Rambling Jack nor Bob Dylan. Fairly typical of Woody as I remember him.
> >
> > The thing that confuses me, and disturbs me a bit, has nothing to do
> > with your reportage--it's always seemed odd to me that all these
> > idealogues didn't seem to be violently disturbed by the Party Line
> > switches re. Soviet/German  reationship changes. Non-performing
> > left-wngers I knew--remember, I was a kid then--were profoundly
> > disturbed when Stalin and Hitler became allies, and were either
> > profoundly relieved or totally disillusioned by the official line switch
> > when Germany invaded Russia. In Ramblin' Man, the attitude seems to be
> > "wotthehell. We e have to make up a new setlist."
> >
> > Re. Browder's ouster, I can recall the not-quite-faithful singing:
> >
> > "Browder is our leader, he must be removed,
> > Browder is our leader, he must be removed,
> > Just like a tree that's standing in the highway
> > He must be removed."
> >
> > Anyway, congratulations on a fine job.
> >
> > dick greenhaus
> >
>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

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> According to those most excellent scholars, Iona and Peter Opie, the
> ballad of strange courtship of the Frog and the Mouse "may be traced
> through four centuries" to _The Complaynt of Scotlande_ (1549) where
> it is mentioned as one of the "sueit melodius sangis" shepherds sang
> under the title of "The frog cam to the myl dur."  (Oxford Dictionary
> of Nursery Rhymnes, p. 179).
> They specifically discount any reference or satire of Charles II
> (nicknamed "Old Rowley") in versions which bear the refrain: "Heigho,
> says Rowley" since those texts do not appear before the eighteenth
> century.
> Who else might be satirized by the ballad is anyone's guess.I posted about this in (uk or rec).music.folk a couple of years ago.
I don't believe "Froggie Went a-Courtin'" was originally satirical or
even funny.  See "The Taill of the Paddok and the Mous" in Henryson's
Aesop, in which the mouse attempts to hitch a ride over a river with a
frog, tied together by a thread.  The frog attempts to drown the mouse;
it ends with both frog and mouse being eaten by a hawk.   Henryson
explains the parable: the mouse is the soul, being dragged into the
stream of physical carnality by the frog representing the body.  The
hawk is Death.  The ideas are probably neo-Platonic, though they would
also fit pretty well into Sufism, which could conceivably have worked
its way into Henryson's Renaissance intellectual background.The idea of the frog coming to the mill door must be a different theme,
where the frog is courting a human lover.  It's part of the family that
includes "The Paddo" and "The Outlandish Knight".-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
fax 0870 055 4975   <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   CD-ROMs of Scottish
traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music, and Mac logic fonts

Jack:I would not want your thoughtful response to go unacknowledged -- hence this simpole response.I happen to be one of those who would have expanded the canon to at least 307 so as to include "The Sea Crab" and "The Frog and the Mouse."  I am also pretty sure that were I in a seminar with F.J. Child I hope I would have the courage to suggest that he also include "Molly Vaughn" et al.Which would expand the canon to about 312.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, April 16, 2004 9:42 am
Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog> > According to those most excellent scholars, Iona and Peter Opie, the
> > ballad of strange courtship of the Frog and the Mouse "may be traced
> > through four centuries" to _The Complaynt of Scotlande_ (1549) where
> > it is mentioned as one of the "sueit melodius sangis" shepherds sang
> > under the title of "The frog cam to the myl dur."  (Oxford Dictionary
> > of Nursery Rhymnes, p. 179).
> > They specifically discount any reference or satire of Charles II
> > (nicknamed "Old Rowley") in versions which bear the refrain: "Heigho,
> > says Rowley" since those texts do not appear before the eighteenth
> > century.
> > Who else might be satirized by the ballad is anyone's guess.
>
> I posted about this in (uk or rec).music.folk a couple of years ago.
> I don't believe "Froggie Went a-Courtin'" was originally satirical or
> even funny.  See "The Taill of the Paddok and the Mous" in Henryson's
> Aesop, in which the mouse attempts to hitch a ride over a river with a
> frog, tied together by a thread.  The frog attempts to drown the mouse;
> it ends with both frog and mouse being eaten by a hawk.   Henryson
> explains the parable: the mouse is the soul, being dragged into the
> stream of physical carnality by the frog representing the body.  The
> hawk is Death.  The ideas are probably neo-Platonic, though they would
> also fit pretty well into Sufism, which could conceivably have worked
> its way into Henryson's Renaissance intellectual background.
>
> The idea of the frog coming to the mill door must be a different theme,
> where the frog is courting a human lover.  It's part of the family that
> includes "The Paddo" and "The Outlandish Knight".
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> fax 0870 055 4975   <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   CD-ROMs of Scottish
> traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music, and Mac logic fonts
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred McCormick" <[unmask]><<Regarding American Southerners, I'm sure they are as fascinated by
hyperbole
etc., as anyone, but I recall the old saying "where the English (or any
other
English speakers) hoard words like misers, the Irish spend them like
sailors".
The Child ballad is not native to the Southern United States of course, but
it strikes me that the dry, matter of fact manner of ballad texts, is
eminently
suited to the spoken delivery of the average Southerner. Somewhere or other
I
have read an article on the taciturn nature of the Scots, and Southern
Appalchian mountaineers, and how this is reflected by ballad poetics.>>Said taciturnity is very much dependent on context. The average Southern
preacher, black or white, is far from taciturn when delivering a sermon;
it's more like a gully-washer.Peace,
Paul

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Further canditates for "Child Ballads" these notes are from Francis Utley's
cambridge student edition of Child (1929)He studied under GL Kittredge, who completed editing vol 10 from child's ms.
I take it that GLK did not consider the canon closed.  1.. Auld Maitland in Scott Minstrelsy Henderson 244-57  2.. Bitter Withy in Gummere Popular Ballad p 228  3.. Blind Beggar of Bednall Green in Hales & Furnival II 281-9  4.. Seven Virgins oxford book of english verse no 382  5.. Shooting of his Dear or Molly Bawn in Campbell and Sharp 159-50 cox
and pound  6.. Lyke-Wake Dirge Oxford Book of English Verse no 381  7.. Corpus Christi Chambers & Sedgwick p 357  8.. Bold Fisherman in Fuller & Maitland County Songs 110 (1893)  9.. Bruton Town or Bramble Briar Belden PMLA 33 327-95  10.. Twelfth Day Greg MLR, Brown ELTC----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog> Jack:
>
> I would not want your thoughtful response to go unacknowledged -- hence
this simpole response.
>
> I happen to be one of those who would have expanded the canon to at least
307 so as to include "The Sea Crab" and "The Frog and the Mouse."  I am also
pretty sure that were I in a seminar with F.J. Child I hope I would have the
courage to suggest that he also include "Molly Vaughn" et al.
>
> Which would expand the canon to about 312.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
> Date: Friday, April 16, 2004 9:42 am
> Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog
>
> > > According to those most excellent scholars, Iona and Peter Opie, the
> > > ballad of strange courtship of the Frog and the Mouse "may be traced
> > > through four centuries" to _The Complaynt of Scotlande_ (1549) where
> > > it is mentioned as one of the "sueit melodius sangis" shepherds sang
> > > under the title of "The frog cam to the myl dur."  (Oxford Dictionary
> > > of Nursery Rhymnes, p. 179).
> > > They specifically discount any reference or satire of Charles II
> > > (nicknamed "Old Rowley") in versions which bear the refrain: "Heigho,
> > > says Rowley" since those texts do not appear before the eighteenth
> > > century.
> > > Who else might be satirized by the ballad is anyone's guess.
> >
> > I posted about this in (uk or rec).music.folk a couple of years ago.
> > I don't believe "Froggie Went a-Courtin'" was originally satirical or
> > even funny.  See "The Taill of the Paddok and the Mous" in Henryson's
> > Aesop, in which the mouse attempts to hitch a ride over a river with a
> > frog, tied together by a thread.  The frog attempts to drown the mouse;
> > it ends with both frog and mouse being eaten by a hawk.   Henryson
> > explains the parable: the mouse is the soul, being dragged into the
> > stream of physical carnality by the frog representing the body.  The
> > hawk is Death.  The ideas are probably neo-Platonic, though they would
> > also fit pretty well into Sufism, which could conceivably have worked
> > its way into Henryson's Renaissance intellectual background.
> >
> > The idea of the frog coming to the mill door must be a different theme,
> > where the frog is courting a human lover.  It's part of the family that
> > includes "The Paddo" and "The Outlandish Knight".
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > -
> > Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131
6604760
> > fax 0870 055 4975   <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   CD-ROMs of
Scottish
> > traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music, and Mac logic
fonts
> >

While we're talking about adding to the Child canon, perhaps we should
also consider throwing out or relegating some of the spurious stuff in
there, such as those obviously made up by Rankin/Buchan, also those only
found on broadsides & not in oral tradition such as many of the Robin Hood
ballads.
SteveG

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:45:35 EDT, [unmask] wrote:>As I mentioned before, Child's correspondance
>with the Danish ballad scholar, Gruntvig really does address this issue.  It is
>stored in the archives at the Harvard Library, and although it's been 30
>years since I read through it all, the impression's it left were very strong.
>Time has subsequently somewhat confused my memory as to which ballads were
>discussed in the correspondance or outright rejected by Child in his notes, and
>which ones showed up in the MacColl - Lloyd "addenda" to the Child ballads, which
>is why I only mentioned songs I was fairly certain about.Mark,I read your comments about>recollection is that Molly Bawn
>He probably considered it to be Irish, and therefore not one of the "English
>and Scottish" ballads.
>Eggs and Marrowbones might have been dismissed as
>"trivial" as well as non-English.
>Certainly that was his reason for not including
>"A Frog He Would a Wooing Go" and several other popular humorous ballads.maybe I missed stuff but I don't see any systematic principle here (other
than, obviously, whether it's E or S.)"Trivial," as others have mentioned, is a tough call.  Even for the
Appendix in which he sticks several fragmentary & limited items.  And my
favorite muckle ballad, as well.Without putting you on the spot or holding you to foggy memory (I hope to
slide by on that, myself) can you suggest any other thoughts he may have
written on this?I should have another look at Kittredge's introduction but I don't recall
his getting into this, really.  He was one of better informed on Child &
the ballad.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

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                                Dolores--
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