Ed: So much for not quoting Harold in public! As for the issue about Woody, Paul Robeson, Pete, etc. backing non-intervention following the Nazi-Soviet pact, I strongly agree that they and many others in or near the Party believed that the capitalist countries should fight it out, following their earlier anti-Nazi feelings. They were all still very anti-Nazi, but were disillusioned with the allies partly because of their refusal to back the Spanish government during the civil war. This is all very complicated stuff. Some of these issues are dealt with in the notes to the 10-cd boxed set by Bear Family Records, SONGS FOR POLITICAL ACTION (produced by Dave Samuelson and myself), which includes the Almanacs' JOHN DOE album of anti-war songs, and also some by Robeson. Pete's somewhat apology appears in the Almanac's pro-war album, DEAR MR. PRESIDENT, also included in SONGS FOR POLITICAL ACTION. Ronald Cohen
> ----------
> From:         Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of edward cray
> Reply To:     Forum for ballad scholars
> Sent:         Thursday, April 15, 2004 8:07 PM
> To:   [unmask]
> Subject:      Fwd: Re: RAmblin' Man
>
> <<Message: Re: RAmblin' Man>>
> Folks:
>
> As I was erasing messages in my inbox, it occurred to me that some of you might be interested in this exchange between Dick and me.  If I have erred, forgive me.
>
> Ed
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From     edward cray <[unmask]>
> Sent    Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:58 am
> To      [unmask]
> Subject         Re: Ramblin' Man
>
> Dick:
>
> On behalf of the Guthrie Childrens Trust Fund, Woody's songs were copyrighted
> by Harold Leventhal in the 1950s and 1960s.  There were some copyright earlier
> by music publisher Howard Richmond, aka TRO [The Richmond Organization].  And
> Jack Guthrie stole "Oklahoma Hills" and copyrighted it in 1945, then revised
> the copyright to add his cousin's name when Woody complained.  Woody himself
> did mail some songs to himself so as to prove ownership, or so I am told, but
> I never saw evidence of it.
>
> Responding to your other points:
>
> I suspect that Woody had something more (or less in mind) when Dylan and
> Elliott performed his songs.  Woody was too ill (?) to make much of a fuss, or
> even perhaps to realize just how much they were imitating Woody.  It was John
> Cohen who told me he saw a young Dylan at Folk City and realized Dylan was
> imitating the stricken Guthrie.
>
> As for Gerlach imitating Leadbelly, you may be right.
>
> I agree with you that the CP and fellow travelers suspended judgment when it
> came to party dictates.  (Which is one reason why as liberal or radical as my
> politics might be I never even considered joining the party.)
>
> But what I WAS trying to do in _Ramblin' Man_ is portray those who did follow
> the party line as passionate, committed people who believed less in Moscow
> than in the American ideal of equal justice and a fair distribution of wealth.
> I knew some of them, by the 1960s almost all of them ex-CPs, and had the
> opportunity to see them not as puppets but as people.
>
> I think I succeeded in that both Leventhal and Pete Seeger, former members of
> the CP, read the manuscript for errors.  Harold later described the book to me
> as "honest, fair and painful."  Which I took as high praise.
>
> I thank you for your kind comments re: _Ramblin' Man_ and ask you keep this
> letter confidential only because I never asked Harold for permission to use
> his quote.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> Date: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:02 am
> Subject: RAmblin' Man
>
> > Hi Ed-
> > Just finished it, and liked it quite a lot. I'm intrigued by a couple
> > three things: You state (in the intro) that Woody never copyrighted any
> > of his thousands  of songs. Mebbe so, but someone sure as hell did.>
> > Digital Tradition has been forced to remove several of Woody's songs at
> > the insistence of his publisher, and the (Almost) Complete Woody Guthrie
> > Songbook claims rights on words and music (emphasis mine)  for every
> > song therein.  Amusing, when one considers that Woody didn't originate
> > any music.
> >
> > I was amused by Woody's resonse to Fred Gerlach's 12-string guitar
> > playing--a dislike of slavish imitation didn't seem to extend to either
> > Rambling Jack nor Bob Dylan. Fairly typical of Woody as I remember him.
> >
> > The thing that confuses me, and disturbs me a bit, has nothing to do
> > with your reportage--it's always seemed odd to me that all these
> > idealogues didn't seem to be violently disturbed by the Party Line
> > switches re. Soviet/German  reationship changes. Non-performing
> > left-wngers I knew--remember, I was a kid then--were profoundly
> > disturbed when Stalin and Hitler became allies, and were either
> > profoundly relieved or totally disillusioned by the official line switch
> > when Germany invaded Russia. In Ramblin' Man, the attitude seems to be
> > "wotthehell. We e have to make up a new setlist."
> >
> > Re. Browder's ouster, I can recall the not-quite-faithful singing:
> >
> > "Browder is our leader, he must be removed,
> > Browder is our leader, he must be removed,
> > Just like a tree that's standing in the highway
> > He must be removed."
> >
> > Anyway, congratulations on a fine job.
> >
> > dick greenhaus
> >
>
>

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> According to those most excellent scholars, Iona and Peter Opie, the
> ballad of strange courtship of the Frog and the Mouse "may be traced
> through four centuries" to _The Complaynt of Scotlande_ (1549) where
> it is mentioned as one of the "sueit melodius sangis" shepherds sang
> under the title of "The frog cam to the myl dur."  (Oxford Dictionary
> of Nursery Rhymnes, p. 179).
> They specifically discount any reference or satire of Charles II
> (nicknamed "Old Rowley") in versions which bear the refrain: "Heigho,
> says Rowley" since those texts do not appear before the eighteenth
> century.
> Who else might be satirized by the ballad is anyone's guess.I posted about this in (uk or rec).music.folk a couple of years ago.
I don't believe "Froggie Went a-Courtin'" was originally satirical or
even funny.  See "The Taill of the Paddok and the Mous" in Henryson's
Aesop, in which the mouse attempts to hitch a ride over a river with a
frog, tied together by a thread.  The frog attempts to drown the mouse;
it ends with both frog and mouse being eaten by a hawk.   Henryson
explains the parable: the mouse is the soul, being dragged into the
stream of physical carnality by the frog representing the body.  The
hawk is Death.  The ideas are probably neo-Platonic, though they would
also fit pretty well into Sufism, which could conceivably have worked
its way into Henryson's Renaissance intellectual background.The idea of the frog coming to the mill door must be a different theme,
where the frog is courting a human lover.  It's part of the family that
includes "The Paddo" and "The Outlandish Knight".-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
fax 0870 055 4975   <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   CD-ROMs of Scottish
traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music, and Mac logic fonts

Jack:I would not want your thoughtful response to go unacknowledged -- hence this simpole response.I happen to be one of those who would have expanded the canon to at least 307 so as to include "The Sea Crab" and "The Frog and the Mouse."  I am also pretty sure that were I in a seminar with F.J. Child I hope I would have the courage to suggest that he also include "Molly Vaughn" et al.Which would expand the canon to about 312.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, April 16, 2004 9:42 am
Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog> > According to those most excellent scholars, Iona and Peter Opie, the
> > ballad of strange courtship of the Frog and the Mouse "may be traced
> > through four centuries" to _The Complaynt of Scotlande_ (1549) where
> > it is mentioned as one of the "sueit melodius sangis" shepherds sang
> > under the title of "The frog cam to the myl dur."  (Oxford Dictionary
> > of Nursery Rhymnes, p. 179).
> > They specifically discount any reference or satire of Charles II
> > (nicknamed "Old Rowley") in versions which bear the refrain: "Heigho,
> > says Rowley" since those texts do not appear before the eighteenth
> > century.
> > Who else might be satirized by the ballad is anyone's guess.
>
> I posted about this in (uk or rec).music.folk a couple of years ago.
> I don't believe "Froggie Went a-Courtin'" was originally satirical or
> even funny.  See "The Taill of the Paddok and the Mous" in Henryson's
> Aesop, in which the mouse attempts to hitch a ride over a river with a
> frog, tied together by a thread.  The frog attempts to drown the mouse;
> it ends with both frog and mouse being eaten by a hawk.   Henryson
> explains the parable: the mouse is the soul, being dragged into the
> stream of physical carnality by the frog representing the body.  The
> hawk is Death.  The ideas are probably neo-Platonic, though they would
> also fit pretty well into Sufism, which could conceivably have worked
> its way into Henryson's Renaissance intellectual background.
>
> The idea of the frog coming to the mill door must be a different theme,
> where the frog is courting a human lover.  It's part of the family that
> includes "The Paddo" and "The Outlandish Knight".
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> fax 0870 055 4975   <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   CD-ROMs of Scottish
> traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music, and Mac logic fonts
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred McCormick" <[unmask]><<Regarding American Southerners, I'm sure they are as fascinated by
hyperbole
etc., as anyone, but I recall the old saying "where the English (or any
other
English speakers) hoard words like misers, the Irish spend them like
sailors".
The Child ballad is not native to the Southern United States of course, but
it strikes me that the dry, matter of fact manner of ballad texts, is
eminently
suited to the spoken delivery of the average Southerner. Somewhere or other
I
have read an article on the taciturn nature of the Scots, and Southern
Appalchian mountaineers, and how this is reflected by ballad poetics.>>Said taciturnity is very much dependent on context. The average Southern
preacher, black or white, is far from taciturn when delivering a sermon;
it's more like a gully-washer.Peace,
Paul

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Further canditates for "Child Ballads" these notes are from Francis Utley's
cambridge student edition of Child (1929)He studied under GL Kittredge, who completed editing vol 10 from child's ms.
I take it that GLK did not consider the canon closed.  1.. Auld Maitland in Scott Minstrelsy Henderson 244-57  2.. Bitter Withy in Gummere Popular Ballad p 228  3.. Blind Beggar of Bednall Green in Hales & Furnival II 281-9  4.. Seven Virgins oxford book of english verse no 382  5.. Shooting of his Dear or Molly Bawn in Campbell and Sharp 159-50 cox
and pound  6.. Lyke-Wake Dirge Oxford Book of English Verse no 381  7.. Corpus Christi Chambers & Sedgwick p 357  8.. Bold Fisherman in Fuller & Maitland County Songs 110 (1893)  9.. Bruton Town or Bramble Briar Belden PMLA 33 327-95  10.. Twelfth Day Greg MLR, Brown ELTC----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2004 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog> Jack:
>
> I would not want your thoughtful response to go unacknowledged -- hence
this simpole response.
>
> I happen to be one of those who would have expanded the canon to at least
307 so as to include "The Sea Crab" and "The Frog and the Mouse."  I am also
pretty sure that were I in a seminar with F.J. Child I hope I would have the
courage to suggest that he also include "Molly Vaughn" et al.
>
> Which would expand the canon to about 312.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
> Date: Friday, April 16, 2004 9:42 am
> Subject: Re: More on the Wooing Frog
>
> > > According to those most excellent scholars, Iona and Peter Opie, the
> > > ballad of strange courtship of the Frog and the Mouse "may be traced
> > > through four centuries" to _The Complaynt of Scotlande_ (1549) where
> > > it is mentioned as one of the "sueit melodius sangis" shepherds sang
> > > under the title of "The frog cam to the myl dur."  (Oxford Dictionary
> > > of Nursery Rhymnes, p. 179).
> > > They specifically discount any reference or satire of Charles II
> > > (nicknamed "Old Rowley") in versions which bear the refrain: "Heigho,
> > > says Rowley" since those texts do not appear before the eighteenth
> > > century.
> > > Who else might be satirized by the ballad is anyone's guess.
> >
> > I posted about this in (uk or rec).music.folk a couple of years ago.
> > I don't believe "Froggie Went a-Courtin'" was originally satirical or
> > even funny.  See "The Taill of the Paddok and the Mous" in Henryson's
> > Aesop, in which the mouse attempts to hitch a ride over a river with a
> > frog, tied together by a thread.  The frog attempts to drown the mouse;
> > it ends with both frog and mouse being eaten by a hawk.   Henryson
> > explains the parable: the mouse is the soul, being dragged into the
> > stream of physical carnality by the frog representing the body.  The
> > hawk is Death.  The ideas are probably neo-Platonic, though they would
> > also fit pretty well into Sufism, which could conceivably have worked
> > its way into Henryson's Renaissance intellectual background.
> >
> > The idea of the frog coming to the mill door must be a different theme,
> > where the frog is courting a human lover.  It's part of the family that
> > includes "The Paddo" and "The Outlandish Knight".
> >
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > -
> > Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131
6604760
> > fax 0870 055 4975   <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   CD-ROMs of
Scottish
> > traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music, and Mac logic
fonts
> >

While we're talking about adding to the Child canon, perhaps we should
also consider throwing out or relegating some of the spurious stuff in
there, such as those obviously made up by Rankin/Buchan, also those only
found on broadsides & not in oral tradition such as many of the Robin Hood
ballads.
SteveG

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 10:45:35 EDT, [unmask] wrote:>As I mentioned before, Child's correspondance
>with the Danish ballad scholar, Gruntvig really does address this issue.  It is
>stored in the archives at the Harvard Library, and although it's been 30
>years since I read through it all, the impression's it left were very strong.
>Time has subsequently somewhat confused my memory as to which ballads were
>discussed in the correspondance or outright rejected by Child in his notes, and
>which ones showed up in the MacColl - Lloyd "addenda" to the Child ballads, which
>is why I only mentioned songs I was fairly certain about.Mark,I read your comments about>recollection is that Molly Bawn
>He probably considered it to be Irish, and therefore not one of the "English
>and Scottish" ballads.
>Eggs and Marrowbones might have been dismissed as
>"trivial" as well as non-English.
>Certainly that was his reason for not including
>"A Frog He Would a Wooing Go" and several other popular humorous ballads.maybe I missed stuff but I don't see any systematic principle here (other
than, obviously, whether it's E or S.)"Trivial," as others have mentioned, is a tough call.  Even for the
Appendix in which he sticks several fragmentary & limited items.  And my
favorite muckle ballad, as well.Without putting you on the spot or holding you to foggy memory (I hope to
slide by on that, myself) can you suggest any other thoughts he may have
written on this?I should have another look at Kittredge's introduction but I don't recall
his getting into this, really.  He was one of better informed on Child &
the ballad.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

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                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hello, all.  There was a nice interview with Ed Cray on Morning Edition today regarding Rambling Man.  There is, apparently, more on Woody Guthrie, including a rare radio performance, on NPR's website.  Great job, Ed.        Marge

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Balladeers --This may have already been mentioned, since I haven't read my
mail for a while, but if it hasn't.... Ed Cray was interviewed
about _Ramblin' Man_ this morning on National Public Radio's
"Weekend Edition." Quite a long interview, too -- seven or
eight minutes, I think. (Try getting *that* on commercial TV.)
I believe the interview can be found on National Public
Radio's web site, along with related materials.I can't recall *anything* related to folk music getting as much
press in recent years as has _Ramblin' Man_. Congratulations,
Ed!--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On 4/18/04, Fred McCormick wrote:>Hi Marge,
>
>Thanks for tip. What's NPR ? Do you have their website address ?www.npr.orgThere is a picture of the book cover right on the front page.Some caution may be indicated; while I loaded www.npr.org
without difficulty in Netscape 4.7 (at the "cost," if such
it can be called, of not being buried in all the fancy junk
they use to make the page cluttered), clicking on the Guthrie
link caused Netscape to bomb. It worked with Netscape 7.0.It appears the direct link ishttp://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1841418.html
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Marge and Other Well-Wishers:Thank you.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: "Steiner, Margaret" <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, April 18, 2004 7:27 am
Subject: Ed Cray was on Morning Edition today> Hello, all.  There was a nice interview with Ed Cray on Morning Edition
> today regarding Rambling Man.  There is, apparently, more on Woody Guthrie,
> including a rare radio performance, on NPR's website.  Great job, Ed.
>
>        Marge
>

Just a reminder-
CAMSCO Music has "Ramblin' Man" in stock for $20 (+ actual postage)--list price $29.95
800/548-FOLK <3655>
or [unmask]dick greenhaus
>
> From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> Date: 2004/04/18 Sun AM 11:09:22 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Ed Cray was on Morning Edition today
>
> On 4/18/04, Fred McCormick wrote:
>
> >Hi Marge,
> >
> >Thanks for tip. What's NPR ? Do you have their website address ?
>
> www.npr.org
>
> There is a picture of the book cover right on the front page.
>
> Some caution may be indicated; while I loaded www.npr.org
> without difficulty in Netscape 4.7 (at the "cost," if such
> it can be called, of not being buried in all the fancy junk
> they use to make the page cluttered), clicking on the Guthrie
> link caused Netscape to bomb. It worked with Netscape 7.0.
>
> It appears the direct link is
>
> http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1841418.html
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

Fred earlier asked today for the NPR website:WOODY Guthrie: 'Ramblin' Man'
NPR - USA
A new biography by Ed Cray -- Ramblin' Man: The Life and Times of Woody
Guthrie -- takes the balladeer from his birth in Oklahoma to his life
as a musician in ...<http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1841418>

And those of us who paid list price when the book came out really
appreciate what a bargain Dick's price is. (Not to mention the fact that
the book is a great book and a great addition.)Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 4/18/2004 12:57:17 PM >>>
Just a reminder-
CAMSCO Music has "Ramblin' Man" in stock for $20 (+ actual
postage)--list price $29.95
800/548-FOLK <3655>
or [unmask]dick greenhaus
>

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray Shoolbraid" <[unmask]><<Wait a minute - surely "Black is the Colour" IS by Niles?  Maybe based on
something traditional [whatever that means] but (mostly) his own?>>Well, depends what you mean by "by", I suppose. 80% of the words, perhaps,
are his, and I suspect the tune is too. The first verse, however, which
includes the title line, is more-or-less traditional; it's been found as
part of a song which is really in the "Sailor Boy" (Laws K12) family. (See,
for example, the version collected from Monroe Gevedon, which Mike Seeger
covered.)Peace,
Paul

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>which ones showed up in the MacColl - Lloyd "addenda" to the Child balladsPlease remind me where I can find this list of addenda.  Tnx mch.-- Bill McCarthy

At 08:12 AM 4/16/2004 -0700, edward cray wrote:
>In the preface to _Beside the Fire_, Douglas Hyde writes of the "American
>gentleman," Jeremiah Curtin, who gathered tales from Gaelic speakers in
>the south and northwest of Ireland.  "He has collected some twenty tales,
>which are told very well, and with much less cooking and flavouring than
>his predecessors emplyed.  Mr. Curtin tells us that he has taken his tales
>from the old Gaelic-speaking men; but he must have done so through the
>awkward medium of an interpreter, for his ignorance of the commonest Irish
>words is as startling as Lady Wilde's."  (Ed: That is Ernest's mother.)
>
>Hyde is criticizing Curtin in 1910 (this before he becomes the first
>president of the Republic of Ireland), and he is criticizing the LAST of
>Curtin's four volumes of Irish myths and folktales.  What makes this so
>interesting is that the redoubtable folklorists Seamus O Duilearga and
>Sean O Suilleabhain thought quite highly of Curtin's collecting.So, apparently, did Hyde.  As I read this comment, he is saying that he is
surprised that one who knew no Gaelic managed to collect tales "told very
well," and that he is grateful that Curtin published them "without cooking
and flavouring."-- Bill

Thank you for all this.  Good thinking and sheds some insight.On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:35:58 EDT, [unmask] wrote:>Where Are You Going, My Good Old Man? (not certain about British titles for it)"Le Vieux Soulard et sa Femme"Well, that's the Cajun title.  I think just "My Good Old Man" is most
common.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

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I agree with Fred's summary the double Cd is really very good and an
excellent value.
George
On Monday, April 19, 2004, at 09:07  AM, Fred McCormick wrote:> Hello All,
>
> Rod Stradling, my colleague at Musical Traditions Magazine, has just
> posted a notice concerning a double CD of Autralian field recordings
> made by the collector John Meredith in the 1950s. The release sounds
> so important that, with his permission, I have reproduced the entire
> posting here.
>
> Keying in
> http://www.nla.gov.au/apps/
> onlineshop?action=OLSSearch&searchby=title&searchvalue=sharing+the+harv
> est&x=30&y=15 will take you straight to the appropriate page. Sounds
> like one harvest that has absolutely got to be shared.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick.
>
> Sharing the Harvest Field recordings from the Meredith collection in
> the National Library of Australia National Library of Australia CD1 &
> CD 2
> Whilst reading Michael Brown's review of the Australian song book,
> Verandah Music, I was struck by his first two paragraphs:
>
> Since discovering the National Library of Australia's Sharing the
> Harvest about a year ago, that double CD has been a particular
> favourite of mine.  Containing songs and instrumental tunes (99 tracks
> in total) from John Meredith's 1950s field recordings, this is an
> excellent selection of the old bush-style singing, recitations,
> British ballads and dance music (and it's still available through the
> National Library of Australia).  Personally, it presented an
> opportunity to hear the classics of Australian traditional folk music
> - for which the original 1950s vinyl releases and later cassette
> compilations are now all but unobtainable - and also a chance to hear
> antipodean singing accents in English close to that of my native New
> Zealand (from which no such releases of field recordings have
> emerged).  The magnificent performances of Edwin Goodwin, Sally
> Sloane, and Duke Tritton were all there, plus good surprises, like
> Ernie Sibley's bizarre recitation Snakes. One of the small problems of
> Sharing the Harvest though, was its lack of background information
> about the performers and the songs in the liner notes.  This was
> solvable by consulting the 1967 book Folk Songs of Australia and the
> Men and Women Who Sang Them (John Meredith and Hugh Anderson), which
> documented the life stories and music of all the performers.  But
> would everyone who bought the CDs know this, or even be able to get a
> copy of this out-of-print volume?
>
>
> Undeterred by this problem - and lured by the prospect of songs from
> Sally Sloane - I checked out the National Library of Australia's
> website at: http://www.nla.gov.au to see what I could find out.  What
> I discovered was that I could buy the double CDs with a credit card
> for $24.14 Australian - so I did.  What I didn't know was - even
> approximately - what $24.14 Australian equalled in Sterling. You may
> be surprised to hear that the discs arrived about one week later, and
> that when my credit card statement subsequently turned up, I found
> that I had got a double CD containing 99 tracks of hitherto virtually
> unobtainable traditional singing and music (much of which is of
> admirably high quality), sent airmail from the other side of the
> world, for the sum of just ?10.16 !!! So this isn't really a review of
> Sharing the Harvest, but a simple statement that you must be barking
> mad if you don't go to the Library's website immediately and get
> yourself a copy! Rod Stradling - 18.4.04
>
>
>
>
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

>Well that started the day off with a laugh. You're quite right. I
>can think of one or two recordings of old time preachers where I've
>had cause to wonder how on earth they got out of the straightjacket
>:-).
>
>Stone me. I've got the radio on while I've been keying this in and
>they've just finished playing a "classical" version of Black is the
>Colour of my True Love's Hair; arranged by Berio, I think. The
>announcer said something like "People think this is a genuine folk
>song, but it was written in the early years of the last century by
>John Jacob Niles". I wonder what JJN would have made of that ?
>
>Cheers,
>
>Fred mCCormick.Well, I think that JJN once *claimed* to have written it, just as he
claimed that "I Wonder as I Wander" was a traditional song.  As far
as I can tell, JJN provided his own front end (first musical phrase)
to a traditional tune for Black is the Color.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Bill:Hyde seems critical of Curtin's Gaelic -- or that of Curtin's translator.  (A linguist, Curtin did later acquire Gaelic.)Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Bill McCarthy <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:40 am
Subject: Re: child ballads in Ireland> At 08:12 AM 4/16/2004 -0700, edward cray wrote:
> >In the preface to _Beside the Fire_, Douglas Hyde writes of the "American
> >gentleman," Jeremiah Curtin, who gathered tales from Gaelic speakers in
> >the south and northwest of Ireland.  "He has collected some twenty tales,
> >which are told very well, and with much less cooking and flavouring than
> >his predecessors emplyed.  Mr. Curtin tells us that he has taken his tales
> >from the old Gaelic-speaking men; but he must have done so through the
> >awkward medium of an interpreter, for his ignorance of the commonest Irish
> >words is as startling as Lady Wilde's."  (Ed: That is Ernest's mother.)
> >
> >Hyde is criticizing Curtin in 1910 (this before he becomes the first
> >president of the Republic of Ireland), and he is criticizing the LAST of
> >Curtin's four volumes of Irish myths and folktales.  What makes this so
> >interesting is that the redoubtable folklorists Seamus O Duilearga and
> >Sean O Suilleabhain thought quite highly of Curtin's collecting.
>
>
> So, apparently, did Hyde.  As I read this comment, he is saying that he is
> surprised that one who knew no Gaelic managed to collect tales "told very
> well," and that he is grateful that Curtin published them "without cooking
> and flavouring."
>
> -- Bill
>

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On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 09:35:00 -0400, Bill McCarthy wrote:>>which ones showed up in the MacColl - Lloyd "addenda" to the Child ballads
>
>Please remind me where I can find this list of addenda.  Tnx mch.
>Vol 5 of Riverside (same as vol 9 of Washington)
(Alphabetically)Bitter Withy
Blind Beggars Daughter of Bethnal Green
Bold Fisherman
Bramble Briar
Down in yon Forest (Corpus Christi Carol)
Holy Well
Lang A-Growing (Trees They Do Grow High)
Seven Virgins
Shooting of His Dear (Polly Vaughan)
Six Dukes Went A-Fishing-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Folks:As Ron Pen is writing a biography of J.J. Niles, I thought it worthwhile to refer this discussion to him.  Herewith his reply:------------------------------------------------------------------------------From     Ron Pen <[unmask]>
Sent    Monday, April 19, 2004 10:31 am
To      edward cray <[unmask]>
Subject         Re: Query re: JJNDear Ed,
I didn't follow the exchange on IU ballad listserv....In any event, the
version that most folks know of "Black Is the Color" was written by
Niles....at least he wrote the tune.  The text was collected from singing at
Ary, KY and he very slightly adapted the words.  There is a tune collected
by Sharp and sung by others such as the Ritchie Family, that is in "common
domain" and has a completely different tune.  It is more complicated than
that, but the concise answer is that Niles collected the tune and text,
wrote a completely new tune, and slightly adapted the lyrics to the
traditional tune...In that form it was copyright by him....Cordially,
Ron
--
Ron Pen
Director, John Jacob Niles Center for American Music
School of Music
105 Fine Arts Building
University of Kentucky
Lexington, KY 40506-0022[unmask]
www.uky.edu/Libraries/NilesCenter859-257-8183 (work)
859-527-3536 (home)

----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 19 April 2004 19:01
Subject: Black, Black> Folks:
>
> As Ron Pen is writing a biography of J.J. Niles, I thought it worthwhile to refer this discussion
to him.  Herewith his reply:
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From     Ron Pen <[unmask]>
> Sent    Monday, April 19, 2004 10:31 am
> To      edward cray <[unmask]>
> Subject         Re: Query re: JJN
>
> Dear Ed,
> I didn't follow the exchange on IU ballad listserv....In any event, the
> version that most folks know of "Black Is the Color" was written by
> Niles....at least he wrote the tune.  The text was collected from singing at
> Ary, KY and he very slightly adapted the words.  There is a tune collected
> by Sharp and sung by others such as the Ritchie Family, that is in "common
> domain" and has a completely different tune.  It is more complicated than
> that, but the concise answer is that Niles collected the tune and text,
> wrote a completely new tune, and slightly adapted the lyrics to the
> traditional tune...In that form it was copyright by him....Niles himself had this to say on the subject:"Black is The Color of My True Love's Hair as sung here was composed between 1916 and 1921. I had
come home from eastern Kentucky, singing this song to an entirely different tune--a tune not unlike
the public-domain material employed even today. My father liked the lyrics, but thought the tune was
downright terrible. So I wrote myself a new tune, ending it in a nice modal manner. My composition
has since been 'discovered' by many an aspiring folk-singer." (Record sleeve notes, 1958).Niles does seem to have modified the text, but not to any great degree. A form of the song was
popular in the clubs during the 1960s and '70s, but I don't recall ever hearing it sung to Niles'
tune, which seems to my ear a modest re-working (though a very distinctive one) of a traditional
melody rather than a piece made from whole cloth.Traditional tunes found with the song tend to show a strong resemblance (though this is just my own
subjective impression) to the Sailor's/Soldier's Life group, with which verses are often shared. I'm
inclined to suspect a familial connection beyond a simple coincidence of floaters, but I haven't
looked at it in depth; on the other side we overlap, both textually and musically, with the
intimidatingly extensive Died for Love group(s).Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/04

Malcolm:I am not one to argue with your analysis.And if you think I am going to plunge into a discussion of "Died for Love," you are sadly mistaken.  I am still trying to work out last weeks riudlee: "The Frog and the Mouse."Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Douglas <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:50 pm
Subject: Re: Black, Black> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: 19 April 2004 19:01
> Subject: Black, Black
>
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > As Ron Pen is writing a biography of J.J. Niles, I thought it worthwhile
> to refer this discussion
> to him.  Herewith his reply:
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >
> > From     Ron Pen <[unmask]>
> > Sent    Monday, April 19, 2004 10:31 am
> > To      edward cray <[unmask]>
> > Subject         Re: Query re: JJN
> >
> > Dear Ed,
> > I didn't follow the exchange on IU ballad listserv....In any event, the
> > version that most folks know of "Black Is the Color" was written by
> > Niles....at least he wrote the tune.  The text was collected from singing at
> > Ary, KY and he very slightly adapted the words.  There is a tune collected
> > by Sharp and sung by others such as the Ritchie Family, that is in "common
> > domain" and has a completely different tune.  It is more complicated than
> > that, but the concise answer is that Niles collected the tune and text,
> > wrote a completely new tune, and slightly adapted the lyrics to the
> > traditional tune...In that form it was copyright by him....
>
>
> Niles himself had this to say on the subject:
>
> "Black is The Color of My True Love's Hair as sung here was composed
> between 1916 and 1921. I had
> come home from eastern Kentucky, singing this song to an entirely different
> tune--a tune not unlike
> the public-domain material employed even today. My father liked the lyrics,
> but thought the tune was
> downright terrible. So I wrote myself a new tune, ending it in a nice modal
> manner. My composition
> has since been 'discovered' by many an aspiring folk-singer." (Record
> sleeve notes, 1958).
>
> Niles does seem to have modified the text, but not to any great degree. A
> form of the song was
> popular in the clubs during the 1960s and '70s, but I don't recall ever
> hearing it sung to Niles'
> tune, which seems to my ear a modest re-working (though a very distinctive
> one) of a traditional
> melody rather than a piece made from whole cloth.
>
> Traditional tunes found with the song tend to show a strong resemblance
> (though this is just my own
> subjective impression) to the Sailor's/Soldier's Life group, with which
> verses are often shared. I'm
> inclined to suspect a familial connection beyond a simple coincidence of
> floaters, but I haven't
> looked at it in depth; on the other side we overlap, both textually and
> musically, with the
> intimidatingly extensive Died for Love group(s).
>
> Malcolm Douglas
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/04
>

>And if you think I am going to plunge into a discussion of "Died for
>Love," you are sadly mistaken.  I am still trying to work out last
>weeks riudlee: "The Frog and the Mouse."
>
>EdRiudlee?
--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

Alan:I was attempting -- two martinis to the good -- to spell "riddle."Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Ackerman <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, April 19, 2004 10:14 pm
Subject: Re: Black, Black> >And if you think I am going to plunge into a discussion of "Died for
> >Love," you are sadly mistaken.  I am still trying to work out last
> >weeks riudlee: "The Frog and the Mouse."
> >
> >Ed
>
> Riudlee?
> --
> Alan Ackerman, [unmask]
>

Harry C. Morrison's "The Rock Island Line" contains the following
verses (11-13):The men struck for wages, the contractors said
'Twas a DAMN foolish notion came into their head
We'll shut the work down 'till the Devil goes blind
Before we raise the pay on the Rock Island Line.So I left Brocky Connors, my place of abode
I hoisted my TURKEY and tramped down the road
I went working for Crowley, that smiling Divine
With a light number two, on the Rock Island Line.He'd stand on the bank and the skinners he'd scold
It was bring 'round your horses or DAMN your soul
Now, that's all about it or go get your time
And Skeedadle to HELL from the Rock Island Line."hoisted my TURKEY" ?"smiling Divine" ?"a light number two" ?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>"hoisted my TURKEY" ?Lifted my bundle onto my back. In more metaphorical terms, hit the road.Peace,
Paul

John:A "turkey" in hobo/tramp slang is the bundle of goods tied to a short pole and carried over one shoulder.I will check the other words when I get home tonight.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:39 am
Subject: Yet other RIL slang questions> Harry C. Morrison's "The Rock Island Line" contains the following
> verses (11-13):
>
> The men struck for wages, the contractors said
> 'Twas a DAMN foolish notion came into their head
> We'll shut the work down 'till the Devil goes blind
> Before we raise the pay on the Rock Island Line.
>
> So I left Brocky Connors, my place of abode
> I hoisted my TURKEY and tramped down the road
> I went working for Crowley, that smiling Divine
> With a light number two, on the Rock Island Line.
>
> He'd stand on the bank and the skinners he'd scold
> It was bring 'round your horses or DAMN your soul
> Now, that's all about it or go get your time
> And Skeedadle to HELL from the Rock Island Line.
>
> "hoisted my TURKEY" ?
>
> "smiling Divine" ?
>
> "a light number two" ?
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Hi, John --
.
"Hoisting the turkey"  means going on the road as a hobo.  The noun  "turkey"
is a hobo's  bag of belongings, often pictured as carried on a stick resting
on one shoulder.Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

>I went working for Crowley, that smiling Divine
>With a light number two, on the Rock Island Line.
>...
>"smiling Divine" ?I suspect that this is not slang but rather sarcasm again.  A literal
meaning, I suppose, might be "smiling God," "smiling guru," or
"smiling good man."  The next verse implies more of a sadistic streak.Thanks to Paul, Ed, Sam, and possibly others whose messages I've not
yet received for pointing out that "turkey" is hobo slang for
"bundle" (of belongings).
--
john garst    [unmask]

On Tue, Apr 20, 2004 at 01:39:55PM -0400, John Garst wrote:
> Harry C. Morrison's "The Rock Island Line" contains the following
> verses (11-13):> "hoisted my TURKEY" ?        I believe it means the bindle ('luggage' of possessions wrapped
up in a bandanna, and -- in cartoons at least -- carried over the
shoulder at the end of a stick).  See Norman Cazden's collection
of Catskill songs contained in the Abelard Folk Song Book (1958),
where Cazden prints the version George Edwards sang, saying that Edwards'
father Jehila is the probable author, and mentions the Rock Island
Line and The State of Arkansas as other sources of the term.Edwards' song is I Walked the Road Again. -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

...
I went working for Crowley, that smiling Divine
With a light number two, on the Rock Island Line.He'd stand on the bank and the skinners he'd scold
..."a light number two" ?I infer that the speak went to work as a "skinner."  If I understand
correctly, a "mule skinner" is someone who drives mules.  These
skinners, however, seem to be "horse skinners" (a term I've never
heard - I guess mules are preferred for many jobs).  This line of
reasoning leads me to wonder if a "light number two" isn't some kind
of rig that the horses drag.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Hi, John --
.
I think "hoisting the turkey"  means going on the road as a hobo.  The noun
"turkey" has been said to be a hobo's  bag of belongings, often pictured as
carried on a stick resting over one shoulder, or as a blanket roll containing
the same sorts of items---the "bindle" of  the  American "bindlestiff", or the
"swag" of Australia's "swagman.".  I first saw the word "turkey" used this way
in Norman Cazden's reporting of a song probably composed and definitely sung
by Jehila"Pat" Edwards,  "I Walked the Road Again" or "I Hit the road again."I haven't heard the other two phrases mentioned in your recent posting.Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

Greetings,
In the Other Shoe (or: the penny just dropped) category:
I have in hand another historical anthology, meant to be
enrichment material for elementary-school instruction, I
think.
        Similar in format to the  Glass-Singer historical collections,
but published by Calicanto Associates in Oakland, CA, this
comb-bound book is _Days of Gold! Songs of the California
Gold Rush_ compiled by Karen W Arlen, Margaret Batt, Mary
Ann Benson, and Nancie N Kester, with CD, published in 1999.
Includes background information such as maps and other 'intercultural'
materials (such as poems translated from the Chinese, and a few Native
American songs), a list of sources, as well as a bibliography and
(pitifully) brief discography.
        Down Home Music in El Cerrito, CA, had copies of this and
its predecessor a couple of years ago.        Calicanto Associates, 6416 Valley View Rd, Oakland, CA 94611.
(510) 339-2081. www.linkdot.com.
        Down Home, 10341 San Pablo Ave, El Cerrito, CA, (510) 525-2129.
I think they have a website, or at least a web address.
        Disclaimer: Aside from being a customer of the store, I have
no fiscal connection.  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

I was told that Waltzing Matilda had the same connotation.George
On Tuesday, April 20, 2004, at 05:10  PM, [unmask] wrote:> Hi, John --
> .
> I think "hoisting the turkey"  means going on the road as a hobo.  The
> noun
> "turkey" has been said to be a hobo's  bag of belongings, often
> pictured as
> carried on a stick resting over one shoulder, or as a blanket roll
> containing
> the same sorts of items---the "bindle" of  the  American
> "bindlestiff", or the
> "swag" of Australia's "swagman.".  I first saw the word "turkey" used
> this way
> in Norman Cazden's reporting of a song probably composed and
> definitely sung
> by Jehila"Pat" Edwards,  "I Walked the Road Again" or "I Hit the road
> again."
>
> I haven't heard the other two phrases mentioned in your recent posting.
>
> Sam Hinton
> La Jolla, CA
>
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dick:What news of the Russell?  What books have I sought to buy from you?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 7:15 pm
Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article> Hi-
> Well, so far I have 3 takers. A few more and I'll see what I can do
> about discounts.
> Have you visited  www.immortalia.com? Nice source.
>
> dick
>
> edward cray wrote:
>
> >The last four digits are: 6083.
> >
> >The card expires 11/06.
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> >Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:01 pm
> >Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article
> >
> >
> >
> >>Just to butt in again, if I can find a half-dozen or so folks that are
> >>interested in this (or any other book), I can order it in bbulk and
> >>resell it at a (generally) substantial discount.
> >>   Lest anyone forget, I carry all 8 volumes of Greig-Duncan, the
> >>Loomis Child (2 volumes so far), Heritage Muse's Digital Child, Classic
> >>English Folk Songs, Still Growing, the Sodom-Laurel Album (with CD) and
> >>a few others.
> >>
> >>dick greenhaus
> >>CAMSCO Music
> >>
> >>Steiner, Margaret wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield
> >>>
> >>>
> >>under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of
> >>work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published
> >>in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope
> >>I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute
> >>at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have
> >>an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know
> >>that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House
> >>and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Cheers.
> >>>
> >>>       Marge
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
>

Of the various "versions" of By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation (the
variations mentioned in the Mudcat are very minor, as far as I can see),
are there any that come from tradition other than O.J. Abbott's version
collected by Edith Fowke in the Ottawa Valley in Canada?The DT cites Ian Robb & Margaret Christl's note on their recording (The
Barley Grain for Me, Folk-Legacy CD-62) that it wasn't found in the
U.S., although a Mudcatter provided a text titled "Paddy's Lamentation,"
published in New York in 1864 (from the LOC American Memory site) that
certainly is related in content.The Canadian version was published on a recording in 1961 (Irish &
British Songs of the Ottawa Valley, on Folkways FM 4051; the print
publication is Edith Fowke's Traditional Singers and Songs from Ontario,
Folklore Associates, Hatboro PA, 1965.When was the original recording of Abbott made?Was it found in Ireland other than in recordings made after that
(possibly starting with Frank Harte's on "Daybreak and a Candle-End" ,
and when was that)?I see that only the DT is cited in the Ballad Index; that particular
publication of Edith Fowkes's has not yet been indexed there.~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, Arizona

Hi, Becky:
     Since I'm somewhat pressured to get ready for
NEFFA right now, I've simply forwarded your query to
Ian Robb, hissownself, who not only sang the song for
us, but wrote the background note. I trust he will
have time to respond. Let me know what happens.
     All the best,
     Sandy Paton (resident folk fogey)--- Becky Nankivell <[unmask]> wrote:
> Of the various "versions" of By the Hush/Paddy's
> Lamentation (the
> variations mentioned in the Mudcat are very minor,
> as far as I can see),
> are there any that come from tradition other than
> O.J. Abbott's version
> collected by Edith Fowke in the Ottawa Valley in
> Canada?
>
> The DT cites Ian Robb & Margaret Christl's note on
> their recording (The
> Barley Grain for Me, Folk-Legacy CD-62) that it
> wasn't found in the
> U.S., although a Mudcatter provided a text titled
> "Paddy's Lamentation,"
> published in New York in 1864 (from the LOC American
> Memory site) that
> certainly is related in content.
>
> The Canadian version was published on a recording in
> 1961 (Irish &
> British Songs of the Ottawa Valley, on Folkways FM
> 4051; the print
> publication is Edith Fowke's Traditional Singers and
> Songs from Ontario,
> Folklore Associates, Hatboro PA, 1965.
>
> When was the original recording of Abbott made?
>
> Was it found in Ireland other than in recordings
> made after that
> (possibly starting with Frank Harte's on "Daybreak
> and a Candle-End" ,
> and when was that)?
>
> I see that only the DT is cited in the Ballad Index;
> that particular
> publication of Edith Fowkes's has not yet been
> indexed there.
>
> ~ Becky Nankivell
> Tucson, Arizona

Here's what David Kincaid had to say about it in the liner notes to his
recent (4 or 5 years ago?) recording of Irish-American Civil War songs:
 5. Paddy's Lamentation (Anonymous)At the time of the release of this album, the origins of Paddy's Lamentation
were a complete mystery. Since then, further research has shed a little light
on the subject. The air (melody) is called "Happy Land Of Erin," and the song
is one of only two on the album ever previously recorded, therefore having
withstood the test of time. This version may have been written post-war, when
the government began cutting back on the veteran's pensions, as the lyric
might suggest. I have come across another lyric, called "The Son Of Erin's
Isle," which judging from the phrasing and the fact that some of passages are
identical, is clearly a variant of the same song, yet decidedly more positive
toward the Irish involvement in the war. Its chorus reads: "Cheer up, boys,
the time will come again, When the sons of old Erin will be steering, And to
the land will go o're, They call Columbia's shore, Where there's freedom for
the jolly sons of Erin."	
 
Usual disclaimers, etc. (acknowledging that I did give the recording a
favorable review in Dirty Linen)
 
I really like Sinead O'Connor's version of this.
 
Dr. Bruce E. Baker
Department of History, Politics, and Society
University of Wisconsin-Superior
P.O. Box 2000
Superior WI 54880
(715) 394-8477________________________________From: Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of Becky Nankivell
Sent: Thu 4/22/2004 12:24 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: By the Hush/Paddy's LamentationOf the various "versions" of By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation (the
variations mentioned in the Mudcat are very minor, as far as I can see),
are there any that come from tradition other than O.J. Abbott's version
collected by Edith Fowke in the Ottawa Valley in Canada?The DT cites Ian Robb & Margaret Christl's note on their recording (The
Barley Grain for Me, Folk-Legacy CD-62) that it wasn't found in the
U.S., although a Mudcatter provided a text titled "Paddy's Lamentation,"
published in New York in 1864 (from the LOC American Memory site) that
certainly is related in content.The Canadian version was published on a recording in 1961 (Irish &
British Songs of the Ottawa Valley, on Folkways FM 4051; the print
publication is Edith Fowke's Traditional Singers and Songs from Ontario,
Folklore Associates, Hatboro PA, 1965.When was the original recording of Abbott made?Was it found in Ireland other than in recordings made after that
(possibly starting with Frank Harte's on "Daybreak and a Candle-End" ,
and when was that)?I see that only the DT is cited in the Ballad Index; that particular
publication of Edith Fowkes's has not yet been indexed there.~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, Arizona

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Thanks, Sandy, have fun at Neffa. Wish I was heading there too, but not
this year.Bruce, thank you for that link. His info about a related song is
interesting.Mudcat followers, sorry for the cross-posting, but --Well, I'm curious about the contemporary paths these things take (latter
20th century to present), as well as earlier in history. Back in the
broadsheet days, a song might exist in tradition, then be put on a
broadsheet and that version spread about more than others. Similarly, in
the age of electronic media, a recorded version propagates much more
rapidly than any other.I'm wondering if the currently extant versions all arise from the one on
the 1961 Canadian recording, that maybe reached Ireland via Frank
Harte's recording of it (but I don't yet have the date of his Daybreak
and a Candle-end). Is that too much of a stretch?The "begats" exist, but actually tracing them is not always possible,
liner notes being what they are (usually not we'd wish they'd be). We do
have the advantage of having a lot of those people still around though.  :-)~ Becky Nankivell

Dick:Guthrie?  Hell no.  I only buy folk music books.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, April 22, 2004 12:10 pm
Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article> Hi-
> It's been ordered, but hasn't arrived yet. I don't have any record of
> any other book you've ordered--was there one?
> Can I interest you in a fine biography of Woody Guthrie?
> dick
>
>
> edward cray wrote:
>
> >Dick:
> >
> >What news of the Russell?  What books have I sought to buy from you?
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> >Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 7:15 pm
> >Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article
> >
> >
> >
> >>Hi-
> >>Well, so far I have 3 takers. A few more and I'll see what I can do
> >>about discounts.
> >>Have you visited  www.immortalia.com? Nice source.
> >>
> >>dick
> >>
> >>edward cray wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>The last four digits are: 6083.
> >>>
> >>>The card expires 11/06.
> >>>
> >>>Ed
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> >>>Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:01 pm
> >>>Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Just to butt in again, if I can find a half-dozen or so folks that are
> >>>>interested in this (or any other book), I can order it in bbulk and
> >>>>resell it at a (generally) substantial discount.
> >>>>  Lest anyone forget, I carry all 8 volumes of Greig-Duncan, the
> >>>>Loomis Child (2 volumes so far), Heritage Muse's Digital Child, Classic
> >>>>English Folk Songs, Still Growing, the Sodom-Laurel Album (with CD) and
> >>>>a few others.
> >>>>
> >>>>dick greenhaus
> >>>>CAMSCO Music
> >>>>
> >>>>Steiner, Margaret wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Hello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of
> >>>>work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published
> >>>>in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope
> >>>>I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute
> >>>>at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have
> >>>>an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know
> >>>>that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House
> >>>>and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Cheers.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>      Marge
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
>

Edith Fowke collected from Abbott and published "By the Hush" in Traditional
Singers and Songs from Ontario, where the song is dated "August, 1957.",
presumably the date Edith collected the song. Peggy Seeger transcribed the
music, but her source she gives as "Folkways FM4051", not the original tape
from Edith.  Edith's fonds are in the University of Calgary library and I
believe are readily accessible.Jon Bartlett----- Original Message -----
From: "Becky Nankivell" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 10:24 AM
Subject: By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation> Of the various "versions" of By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation (the
> variations mentioned in the Mudcat are very minor, as far as I can see),
> are there any that come from tradition other than O.J. Abbott's version
> collected by Edith Fowke in the Ottawa Valley in Canada?
>
> The DT cites Ian Robb & Margaret Christl's note on their recording (The
> Barley Grain for Me, Folk-Legacy CD-62) that it wasn't found in the
> U.S., although a Mudcatter provided a text titled "Paddy's Lamentation,"
> published in New York in 1864 (from the LOC American Memory site) that
> certainly is related in content.
>
> The Canadian version was published on a recording in 1961 (Irish &
> British Songs of the Ottawa Valley, on Folkways FM 4051; the print
> publication is Edith Fowke's Traditional Singers and Songs from Ontario,
> Folklore Associates, Hatboro PA, 1965.
>
> When was the original recording of Abbott made?
>
> Was it found in Ireland other than in recordings made after that
> (possibly starting with Frank Harte's on "Daybreak and a Candle-End" ,
> and when was that)?
>
> I see that only the DT is cited in the Ballad Index; that particular
> publication of Edith Fowkes's has not yet been indexed there.
>
> ~ Becky Nankivell
> Tucson, Arizona
>

Those with further interest in the song will want to check in at the
Mudcat thread to see the fruits of Malcolm Douglas's putting 2 and 2
together via the web.
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4988&messages=66&page=2#1168307Doesn't answer the questions about the recent history, but nice work on
the roots.~ Becky Nankivell

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:24:44 -0700, Becky Nankivell wrote:>Was it found in Ireland other than in recordings made after that
>(possibly starting with Frank Harte's on "Daybreak and a Candle-End" ,
>and when was that)?Per http://celticgrooves.homestead.com/CG_Harte_Frank_Daybreak.html"
FRANK HARTE: DAYBREAK AND A CANDLE-END
A delightful collection (first released in 1987) of songs by one of
Ireland's great singers of traditional songs, with sparse bu effective
accompaniments by Donal Lunny
"I'm pleased to see more discussion on this song.  There was quite a bit
here and at Mudcat and here and further notes from Janet Ryan in 2000.
And I took notes then.  It's not only a fine song but the historical
connections are fascinating.  Meagher was one of the world's great
characters.One thing that might add a small push to an older dating for the song is
the mention of the very obscure (to me, anyway) "Indian buck."  Given it
was used for famine relief, that's 1845-52 PLUS time for the songwriter to
remember its use.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

"The Art of Ballad Singing" part 54.On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 10:24:44 -0700, Becky Nankivell wrote:>Was it found in Ireland other than in recordings made after that
>(possibly starting with Frank Harte's on "Daybreak and a Candle-End" ,
>and when was that)?I don't get to check out the Millennium Stage as often as I'd like but
when Lewis Becker here mentioned a Harte appearance I made sure to catch
it.It's a fine performance.He also greatly reassured me about one of my failures...He says that in singing a cappella, there's no way to know on what note to
start a song.  All one [he] can do is start singing and when you get to
the highest [or lowest - ajs] note you'll know where.  Then, if you start
over, there should be no embarrassment on the part of the singer or the
audience.[in the absence of perfect pitch - ajs]OK, it's slightly self-serving but it comes from a superb singer.  For
myself, it's encouraging because I have poor pitch and a short range and
the best key is _very_ important to me.  I hear Martin Carthy typically
run through a verse quickly & barely vocally before many ballads - I've
never asked but I'd assumed it was just to rehearse the tune - assuring
pitch would be a good reason as well.Peggy Seeger made a few but insightful comments on the Art in her
interview last week on Mike Riegenstreif CKUT webcast Folk Roots-Folk
Branches.I sure wish I could have sat in on even one of MacColl's workshops or
weekly gettogethers.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

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As Edith Fowke mentioned, the song appeared on broadsides as "Pat in America"; there is a copy at
the Bodleian without publications details:  2806 c.15(246). The tune prescribed is "The Happy Land
of Erin", and there are two copies of that song there, one by Haly of Cork. Also in the same metre
is "The Happy Land of Canaan", a Minstrel song in the forms I've seen. Evidently several songs were
written to the "Canaan" tune (often relating to the American Civil War); the Bodleian has three, one
by De Marsan with a tentative date of 1860. At the Lester Levy Collection (Box: 024 Item: 032) is
sheet music of 1860, "Happy Land of Canaan. Popular Banjo Solo; composed by William A. Wray of the
Original Campbell Minstrels". The melody is recognisably a close relative of O J Abbot's "By the
Hush".What isn't clear is whether "Erin" or "Canaan" is the earlier; though a superficial look suggests
that "Canaan" was more widely known in the USA. I would imagine that both were reasonably well-known
in Britain and Ireland in the later 19th century; the prolific Tyneside songwriter Joe Wilson set
his "Sally Wheatley" to "The Happy Land of Air-in" (though nowadays it is usually sung to a tune put
to it by Alex Glasgow).Roud lists only one example of "By the Hush" other than Abbott's; a set recorded by John Howson from
Roisin White (Co Armagh, 1991). Her first line is the same as Frank Harte's. Whether this represents
a strand surviving in Irish tradition or a relatively recent import I have no idea. If anyone has
more details it would be interesting to know.Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/04

I was in a song workshop with Roisin two years ago.  She said she had leaned the song from the singing of Frank which would explain the similarity between the two versions. 
  
Elizabeth Hummel 
  
  
-snip-Roud lists only one example of "By the Hush" other than Abbott's; a set recorded by John Howson from 
Roisin White (Co Armagh, 1991). Her first line is the same as Frank Harte's. Whether this represents 
a strand surviving in Irish tradition or a relatively recent import I have no idea. If anyone has 
more details it would be interesting to know. 
 
 
 
 
	  
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth Hummel" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 23 April 2004 22:33
Subject: Re: By the Hush/Paddy's Lamentation> I was in a song workshop with Roisin two years ago.  She said she had leaned the song from the
singing of Frank which would explain the similarity between the two versions.That clears that loose end up, then; thank you! Now, does anybody know where Frank Harte got it? His
reference to "Bi i do thost" suggests that he may have been familiar with the broadside text (where
it is rendered "bidenahust"). I carelessly missed a second example at the Bodleian, incidentally:
Harding B 11(2964),  from T. Taylor of Spitalfields "between 1859 and 1899".Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 15/04/04

In the digest format of the Ballad-L, Elizabeth Humel's message came through looking like this:SSB3YXMgaW4gYSBzb25nIHdvcmtzaG9wIHdpdGggUm9pc2luIHR3byB5ZWFycyBhZ28uICBTaGUg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But, Malcolm's quote from the message gets me the pertinent info!~ Becky Nankivell

On 2004/04/23 at 04:01:40PM -0700, Becky Nankivell wrote:> In the digest format of the Ballad-L, Elizabeth Humel's message came through looking like this:
>
> SSB3YXMgaW4gYSBzb25nIHdvcmtzaG9wIHdpdGggUm9pc2luIHR3byB5ZWFycyBhZ28uICBTaGUg        [ ... bulk of encoded text snipped ... ]> ZSBkZXRhaWxzIGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGludGVyZXN0aW5nIHRvIGtub3cuDQoNCg0KDQoNCgkgDQoN
> Cg==        Another example of the problems which can come from posting in
HTML -- some e-mail clients will make it an attachment, and if the
characters used are outside the limits of the standard 7-bit ASCII
characterset, it will encode the file.        The digester does not bother to decode the files, so you get the
above garbage.        *Please* everyone -- convince your e-mail program that you want
to post in plain txet only.  (Those with recent versions of AOL's
software will have problems with this -- though I am assured that you
can convince AOL 9.0 on a case-by-case basis to post in plain text, by
right-clicking on something or other before sending.  It should offer
you a plain-text option.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---