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Dear colleagues,I am currently researching about folk ballads which tell the same story as
the famous urban legend known as _The Vanishing Hitchhiker_: a man gives a
lift to a girl who he later discovers was a ghost (normaly he lends her his
coat and is told about the girl's death when he goes to her home the next
day in order to recover the coat; in other versions the girl just
disappears from the car and that in itself shows she is a ghost).
I am looking for real folk ballads, I mean not songs which didn't became
traditional (like for instance one by the Country Gentlemen which seems to
have been quite famous in the 50's and was recorded again and again by
different singers and bands, but was never oraly transmited).
I have found some references to ballads on this subject which seem to exist
in South Africa, but I was not able to find their texts. Do you know them?
Thank you very much in advance.
J. J. Dias MarquesJ. J. Dias Marques
F. C. H. S. / Universidade do Algarve
8000-117 Faro / Portugal
Tel. / Phone: +351 289800900, ext. 7410
Tel. pessoal / Personal  phone: +351 962651919
Fax: + 351 289818560
<[unmask]>

The ballad sung by the Country Gentlemen and others was "Bringing Mary
Home," and it may have entered oral tradition; I know that Kilby Snow, a
traditional singer/autoharp player from Virginia, sang it.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "J. J. Dias Marques" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:46 AM
Subject: Ballads about Vanishing Hitchhiker> Dear colleagues,
>
> I am currently researching about folk ballads which tell the same story as
> the famous urban legend known as _The Vanishing Hitchhiker_: a man gives a
> lift to a girl who he later discovers was a ghost (normaly he lends her
his
> coat and is told about the girl's death when he goes to her home the next
> day in order to recover the coat; in other versions the girl just
> disappears from the car and that in itself shows she is a ghost).
> I am looking for real folk ballads, I mean not songs which didn't became
> traditional (like for instance one by the Country Gentlemen which seems to
> have been quite famous in the 50's and was recorded again and again by
> different singers and bands, but was never oraly transmited).
> I have found some references to ballads on this subject which seem to
exist
> in South Africa, but I was not able to find their texts. Do you know them?
> Thank you very much in advance.
> J. J. Dias Marques
>
> J. J. Dias Marques
> F. C. H. S. / Universidade do Algarve
> 8000-117 Faro / Portugal
> Tel. / Phone: +351 289800900, ext. 7410
> Tel. pessoal / Personal  phone: +351 962651919
> Fax: + 351 289818560
> <[unmask]>
>

One of the young singers I recorded in Newtownbutler, Co. Fermanagh, Northern Ireland, sang it in a pub session in 1979.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Norm Cohen
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:00 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Ballads about Vanishing HitchhikerThe ballad sung by the Country Gentlemen and others was "Bringing Mary
Home," and it may have entered oral tradition; I know that Kilby Snow, a
traditional singer/autoharp player from Virginia, sang it.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "J. J. Dias Marques" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:46 AM
Subject: Ballads about Vanishing Hitchhiker> Dear colleagues,
>
> I am currently researching about folk ballads which tell the same story as
> the famous urban legend known as _The Vanishing Hitchhiker_: a man gives a
> lift to a girl who he later discovers was a ghost (normaly he lends her
his
> coat and is told about the girl's death when he goes to her home the next
> day in order to recover the coat; in other versions the girl just
> disappears from the car and that in itself shows she is a ghost).
> I am looking for real folk ballads, I mean not songs which didn't became
> traditional (like for instance one by the Country Gentlemen which seems to
> have been quite famous in the 50's and was recorded again and again by
> different singers and bands, but was never oraly transmited).
> I have found some references to ballads on this subject which seem to
exist
> in South Africa, but I was not able to find their texts. Do you know them?
> Thank you very much in advance.
> J. J. Dias Marques
>
> J. J. Dias Marques
> F. C. H. S. / Universidade do Algarve
> 8000-117 Faro / Portugal
> Tel. / Phone: +351 289800900, ext. 7410
> Tel. pessoal / Personal  phone: +351 962651919
> Fax: + 351 289818560
> <[unmask]>
>

Well, one can go way back to The Suffolk Miracle.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of J. J. Dias Marques
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 12:46 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Ballads about Vanishing HitchhikerDear colleagues,I am currently researching about folk ballads which tell the same story as
the famous urban legend known as _The Vanishing Hitchhiker_: a man gives a
lift to a girl who he later discovers was a ghost (normaly he lends her his
coat and is told about the girl's death when he goes to her home the next
day in order to recover the coat; in other versions the girl just
disappears from the car and that in itself shows she is a ghost).
I am looking for real folk ballads, I mean not songs which didn't became
traditional (like for instance one by the Country Gentlemen which seems to
have been quite famous in the 50's and was recorded again and again by
different singers and bands, but was never oraly transmited).
I have found some references to ballads on this subject which seem to exist
in South Africa, but I was not able to find their texts. Do you know them?
Thank you very much in advance.
J. J. Dias MarquesJ. J. Dias Marques
F. C. H. S. / Universidade do Algarve
8000-117 Faro / Portugal
Tel. / Phone: +351 289800900, ext. 7410
Tel. pessoal / Personal  phone: +351 962651919
Fax: + 351 289818560
<[unmask]>

Hello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.Cheers.        Marge

Can you tell me if there are changes in the text of that version, regarding
the original text I mean?
J. J.>One of the young singers I recorded in Newtownbutler, Co. Fermanagh,
>Northern Ireland, sang it in a pub session in 1979.
>
>        Marge
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
>Of Norm Cohen
>Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:00 PM
>To: [unmask]
>Subject: Re: Ballads about Vanishing Hitchhiker
>
>
>The ballad sung by the Country Gentlemen and others was "Bringing Mary
>Home," and it may have entered oral tradition; I know that Kilby Snow, a
>traditional singer/autoharp player from Virginia, sang it.
>Norm Cohen
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "J. J. Dias Marques" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:46 AM
>Subject: Ballads about Vanishing Hitchhiker
>
>
>> Dear colleagues,
>>
>> I am currently researching about folk ballads which tell the same story as
>> the famous urban legend known as _The Vanishing Hitchhiker_: a man gives a
>> lift to a girl who he later discovers was a ghost (normaly he lends her
>his
>> coat and is told about the girl's death when he goes to her home the next
>> day in order to recover the coat; in other versions the girl just
>> disappears from the car and that in itself shows she is a ghost).
>> I am looking for real folk ballads, I mean not songs which didn't became
>> traditional (like for instance one by the Country Gentlemen which seems to
>> have been quite famous in the 50's and was recorded again and again by
>> different singers and bands, but was never oraly transmited).
>> I have found some references to ballads on this subject which seem to
>exist
>> in South Africa, but I was not able to find their texts. Do you know them?
>> Thank you very much in advance.
>> J. J. Dias Marques
>>
>> J. J. Dias Marques
>> F. C. H. S. / Universidade do Algarve
>> 8000-117 Faro / Portugal
>> Tel. / Phone: +351 289800900, ext. 7410
>> Tel. pessoal / Personal  phone: +351 962651919
>> Fax: + 351 289818560
>> <[unmask]>
>>J. J. Dias Marques
F. C. H. S. / Universidade do Algarve
8000-117 Faro / Portugal
Tel. / Phone: +351 289800900, ext. 7410
Tel. pessoal / Personal  phone: +351 962651919
Fax: + 351 289818560
<[unmask]>

Just to butt in again, if I can find a half-dozen or so folks that are
interested in this (or any other book), I can order it in bbulk and
resell it at a (generally) substantial discount.
    Lest anyone forget, I carry all 8 volumes of Greig-Duncan, the
Loomis Child (2 volumes so far), Heritage Muse's Digital Child, Classic
English Folk Songs, Still Growing, the Sodom-Laurel Album (with CD) and
a few others.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO MusicSteiner, Margaret wrote:>Hello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.
>
>Cheers.
>
>        Marge
>
>
>

For Marge and others: This book sounds most interesting. I would like any information how to order from the U.S. Ronald Cohen-----Original Message-----
From:   Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of Steiner, Margaret
Sent:   Tue 3/23/2004 3:36 PM
To:     [unmask]
Cc:	
Subject:        new book in which I have an articleHello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.Cheers.        Marge

The best thing would be to contact Ian Russell at the Elphinstone Institute: I know that they have a website.  I could forward the note that was sent to the authors.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Cohen, Ronald
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 5:31 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: new book in which I have an articleFor Marge and others: This book sounds most interesting. I would like any information how to order from the U.S. Ronald Cohen-----Original Message-----
From:   Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of Steiner, Margaret
Sent:   Tue 3/23/2004 3:36 PM
To:     [unmask]
Cc:
Subject:        new book in which I have an articleHello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.Cheers.        Marge

Hello, folks.  Here's the note sent from Ian Russell.  You might want to e-mail him directly or go to Elphinstone's website to work out logistics of obtaining/selling the book.Cheers.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Russell [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2004 12:01 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Folk Song: Tradition, Revival, and Re-Creation!Dear Author,Folk Song: Tradition, Revival, and Re-CreationThe above volume edited by David Atkinson and myself has now been published
and during the next few weeks I will be sending out authors' copies (one
per author) and review copies (suggestions welcome). I would be grateful if
you could send me your correct postal address to avoid any misunderstandings.There will be a London launch at the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library,
Cecil Sharp House, 2 Regent's Park Road, NW1 7AY on Saturday 3 April at
4.30pm, as the concluding event of the Traditional Song Forum.There will also be an Aberdeen launch on Thursday 15 April at 3.30pm in New
Kings Room 3, King's College, as part of the British Forum for
Ethnomusicology Conference.If you are attending either event, please let me know, as it will save
postage if you can collect your copy in person. You would be most welcome
at either.The book retails through the post at £25.00, which includes a £5.00 charge
for p&p. If you would like to buy additional copies, these will be
available at a 30% discount price of £13 plus £5.00 p&p (UK), ie £18.00
(cheques to 'University of Aberdeen', main credit cards also accepted.)
Please note, authors will be limited to just 4 copies at this discount price.It's been a long long hard slog and I am very grateful to David for his
expert support, and also to Malcolm Reavell, who undertook the typesetting
and artwork. Polestar Press have also done a good job. Thank you for your
important contribution to what is a very fine, impressive and scholarly
volume. I trust you will be pleased to be part of such a worthwhile venture.Please spread the word! There is an attractive flyer, which I will send
you, see also our website,www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/We need to get it seen (and sold). If you can request it for a library,
please do so.
Copies are also available for sale at Cecil Sharp House.Very best wishes,
Ian___________________________
Dr Ian Russell, Director
The Elphinstone Institute
University of Aberdeen
24 High Street
Aberdeen
AB24 3EB
Tel: +44 (0)1224 272386
Fax: +44 (0)1224 272728
[unmask]
Website:
www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/

I grew up singing "Bringing Mary Home," and I learned it from my uncle, who
probably learned it soon after it came out.  I never knew it was by the
Country Gentlemen until years later.  On a slightly older note, I interviewed
a woman in North Carolina in 1994 whose grandfather told a version of the
"vanishing hitchhiker" story based on his own experience around 1900.
Interestingly, he also wrote at least one ballad on a local event that did
pass into tradition.  But I can't think of any ballads other than "Bringing
Mary Home" that have a vanishing hitchhiker.  If we accept the idea that
supernatural elements tended to fall out of American versions of ballads,
that might account for the lack of American ballads with this motif.
 
Dr. Bruce E. Baker
Department of History, Politics, and Society
University of Wisconsin-Superior
P.O. Box 2000
Superior WI 54880
(715) 394-8477________________________________From: Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of Steiner, Margaret
Sent: Tue 3/23/2004 2:10 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Ballads about Vanishing HitchhikerOne of the young singers I recorded in Newtownbutler, Co. Fermanagh, Northern
Ireland, sang it in a pub session in 1979.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Norm Cohen
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:00 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Ballads about Vanishing HitchhikerThe ballad sung by the Country Gentlemen and others was "Bringing Mary
Home," and it may have entered oral tradition; I know that Kilby Snow, a
traditional singer/autoharp player from Virginia, sang it.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "J. J. Dias Marques" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 9:46 AM
Subject: Ballads about Vanishing Hitchhiker> Dear colleagues,
>
> I am currently researching about folk ballads which tell the same story as
> the famous urban legend known as _The Vanishing Hitchhiker_: a man gives a
> lift to a girl who he later discovers was a ghost (normaly he lends her
his
> coat and is told about the girl's death when he goes to her home the next
> day in order to recover the coat; in other versions the girl just
> disappears from the car and that in itself shows she is a ghost).
> I am looking for real folk ballads, I mean not songs which didn't became
> traditional (like for instance one by the Country Gentlemen which seems to
> have been quite famous in the 50's and was recorded again and again by
> different singers and bands, but was never oraly transmited).
> I have found some references to ballads on this subject which seem to
exist
> in South Africa, but I was not able to find their texts. Do you know them?
> Thank you very much in advance.
> J. J. Dias Marques
>
> J. J. Dias Marques
> F. C. H. S. / Universidade do Algarve
> 8000-117 Faro / Portugal
> Tel. / Phone: +351 289800900, ext. 7410
> Tel. pessoal / Personal  phone: +351 962651919
> Fax: + 351 289818560
> <[unmask]>
>

Dick:I'm in.  But change my credit card to4264 2812 4634 XXXX.I will send the last four digits and the expiration date in a subsequent email.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:01 pm
Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article> Just to butt in again, if I can find a half-dozen or so folks that are
> interested in this (or any other book), I can order it in bbulk and
> resell it at a (generally) substantial discount.
>    Lest anyone forget, I carry all 8 volumes of Greig-Duncan, the
> Loomis Child (2 volumes so far), Heritage Muse's Digital Child, Classic
> English Folk Songs, Still Growing, the Sodom-Laurel Album (with CD) and
> a few others.
>
> dick greenhaus
> CAMSCO Music
>
> Steiner, Margaret wrote:
>
> >Hello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield
> under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of
> work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published
> in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope
> I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute
> at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have
> an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know
> that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House
> and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.
> >
> >Cheers.
> >
> >        Marge
> >
> >
> >
>

The last four digits are: 6083.The card expires 11/06.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:01 pm
Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article> Just to butt in again, if I can find a half-dozen or so folks that are
> interested in this (or any other book), I can order it in bbulk and
> resell it at a (generally) substantial discount.
>    Lest anyone forget, I carry all 8 volumes of Greig-Duncan, the
> Loomis Child (2 volumes so far), Heritage Muse's Digital Child, Classic
> English Folk Songs, Still Growing, the Sodom-Laurel Album (with CD) and
> a few others.
>
> dick greenhaus
> CAMSCO Music
>
> Steiner, Margaret wrote:
>
> >Hello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield
> under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of
> work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published
> in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope
> I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute
> at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have
> an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know
> that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House
> and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.
> >
> >Cheers.
> >
> >        Marge
> >
> >
> >
>

Hi!        Here is this week's list (if the cat doesn't step on the
keyboard before I finish).        SONGSTERS        3597365963 - Forget-Me-Not Songster, $3.50 (ends Mar-29-04
15:07:32 PST)        3713295802 - Bill E. Burke's Songster, $8 (ends Mar-29-04
18:30:46 PST)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3595949073 - Songs and Ballads from Nova Scotia by Creighton,
1933, $6.99 (ends Mar-24-04 10:25:13 PST)        3595966886 - Ballads and Ballad Poems by Pocock, 1.99 GBP,
(ends Mar-24-04 11:23:07 PST)        3596003665 - The Scholar Friends: Letters of Frances James Child
and James Russell Lowell by Howe & Cottrell, 1952, $3 (ends Mar-24-04
13:24:12 PST)        3596040915 - Soldier Songs and Home-Front Ballads of the Civil
War by Silber, 1964, $2.99 (ends Mar-24-04 16:11:09 PST)        3595859702 - 2 books (Ballad Poetry of Ireland & Songs of Ireland)
1866, $14.99 (ends Mar-24-04 16:45:00 PST)        3596068029 - Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898 by
Wilgus, 1959, $12.50 (ends Mar-24-04 18:14:25 PST)        3596145269 - The British Literary Ballad by Laws, 1972, $1.25
(ends Mar-25-04 05:07:34 PST)        3596873030 - American Negro Songs by Work, 1940, $0.99 (ends
Mar-25-04 21:18:45 PST)        3596434689 - The Book of British Ballads by Hall, 1853, 20 GBP
(ends Mar-26-04 03:27:40 PST)        3596274520 - Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, Heroic Ballads
by Herd, volume 2, 1869 reprint, $24.50 (ends Mar-28-04 13:02:14 PST)        3712578122 - Gems Of Scottish Song, 1886, $15 (ends Mar-26-04
18:38:00 PST)        3712669312 - 6 songbooks from 1930's, $9.99 (ends Mar-27-04
09:15:58 PST)        3596754280 - Texas And Southwestern Lore by Dobie, 1967, $5.93
(ends Mar-27-04 11:59:10 PST)        3596810373 - PENGUIN BOOK OF BALLADS by Grigson, 1975, $5 (ends
Mar-27-04 15:52:15 PST)        3596833173 - TALES AND SONGS OF SOUTHERN ILLINOIS by Neely, 1938,
$9.99 (ends Mar-27-04 17:50:31 PST)        3596877075 - Scottish Ballads by Lyle, 1994, $8 (ends Mar-27-04
22:02:19 PST)        3596968854 - Folk Songs of Canada by Fowke & Johnston, 1970
printing, $4.99 (ends Mar-28-04 08:23:52 PST)        3596277819 - North Pennsylvania Minstrelsy by Shoemaker, 1923,
$24.50 (ends Mar-28-04 13:10:32 PST)        3596280371 - Ballads and Songs of Indiana by Brewster, 1940,
$24.50 (ends Mar-28-04 13:18:08 PST)        3597094959 - Studies in Philology (An Analytical Index To The
Ballad-entries (1557-1709) in the Registers of the Company of Stationers
of London) by Greenlaw, 1924, $14.50 (ends Mar-28-04 13:51:22 PST)        2233007828 - Lulu Belle's and Skyland Scotty's Home Folk Songs,
1937, $8 (ends Mar-28-04 17:45:00 PST)        3597153573 - BLOODY VERSICLES: THE RHYMES OF CRIME by Goodman,
1993, $6 (ends Mar-28-04 17:47:55 PST)        3597212164 - GIT ALONG, LITTLE DOGIES SONGS AND SONGMAKERS OF
THE AMERICAN WEST by White, 1975, $9.99 (ends Mar-28-04 22:28:52 PST)        2234003617 - NAVAL SONGS, AND OTHER SONGS AND BALLADS OF SEA
LIFE by Kinder, 1902, 8.50 GBP (ends Mar-29-04 12:33:35 PST)        3713302744 - early songs of uncle sam by Jackson, 1933, $1.99
(ends Mar-29-04 19:00:35 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dick:Please do NOT bill the credit card number I inadvertantly sent to the entire
ballad-l list -- and therefore the world.I will send you a new number tomorrow -- when the fumes have cleared.  I still
want the new Elphinstone book.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 7:15 pm
Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article> Hi-
> Well, so far I have 3 takers. A few more and I'll see what I can do
> about discounts.
> Have you visited  www.immortalia.com? Nice source.
>
> dick
>
> edward cray wrote:
>
> >The last four digits are: 6083.
> >
> >The card expires 11/06.
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
> >Date: Tuesday, March 23, 2004 2:01 pm
> >Subject: Re: new book in which I have an article
> >
> >
> >
> >>Just to butt in again, if I can find a half-dozen or so folks that are
> >>interested in this (or any other book), I can order it in bbulk and
> >>resell it at a (generally) substantial discount.
> >>   Lest anyone forget, I carry all 8 volumes of Greig-Duncan, the
> >>Loomis Child (2 volumes so far), Heritage Muse's Digital Child, Classic
> >>English Folk Songs, Still Growing, the Sodom-Laurel Album (with CD) and
> >>a few others.
> >>
> >>dick greenhaus
> >>CAMSCO Music
> >>
> >>Steiner, Margaret wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hello, all.  In 1998, a confrence was held at the University of Sheffield
> >>>
> >>>
> >>under the aegis of Ian Russell and the EFDSS to commemorate a century of
> >>work.  Some of the proceedings of that conference have just been published
> >>in a book called Folk Song, Tradition, Revival, and Re-creation.  (I hope
> >>I have the title right.)  It's avaiable through the Elphinstone Institute
> >>at the University of Aberdeen.  I haven't received my copy yet, but I have
> >>an essay in there on Louise Manny, the New Brunswick folklorist.  I know
> >>that there are to be two launchings of the book, one at Cecil Sharp House
> >>and one in Aberdeen.  Just thought folk might want to know.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Cheers.
> >>>
> >>>       Marge
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dick,You can add my name to the list of buyers for the Elphinstone book.Cheers
Jamie Moreira

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi folks:I was playing "Joe Bowers" on the radio a couple of days ago, and it brought
to mind a question I've had ever since I heard the song. To refresh your
memories:JOE BOWERSMy name it is Joe Bowers;
I have a brother Ike.
I came from old Missoura,
All the way from Pike.I used to know a girl there;
Her name was Sally Black.
I asked her if she'd marry me;
She said it was a whack.She said to me, "Joe Bowers.
Before we hitch for life,
You'd better get a little home
To take your little wife.' '"Oh Sally, dearest Sally,
Oh Sally, for your sake.
I'll go to California
And try and raise a stake."When I got in that country
I didn't have a red;
I had such wolfish feelings
I wished myself most dead.But the thughts of my dear Sally
Soon made those feelings git,
And whispered hope to Bowers,
I wish I had them yet.At last a letter,
Enough to make me swear,
That Sally married a butcher,
And the butcher had red hair.Before I got through reading,
At length the letter said:
Sally had a baby,
And the baby's head was red.This version was taken from Digital Tradition; in other ones, including the
one Pete Seeger popularized, there's another verse making a big deal about
the baby having red hair (I don't remember the exact lyrics well enough to
quote them).My question is, *why* is that such a big deal? If Sally marries a man with
red hair, a red-haired baby is not exactly a surprise. So why is the singer
so exercised about it, aside from being upset that his girl has thrown him
over? Is it possible that the marriage was something added later to make the
song respectable, and that Sally had done something else with the butcher
rather than marry him? Anyone know some pre-revival versions of the song?
The earliest publication given in the Ballad Index is 1856, in "Johnson's
Original Comic Songs", and it's been suggested that Johnson wrote it.Any guidance to the confused will be gratefully appreciated.Peace,
Paul

1842 sources (Revival Melodies, Wesleyan Psalmist, Songs of Canaan;
all published in Boston by Methodists) attribute the music of All Is
Well/God Is Love to C. Dingley.  In 1846 the famous Mormon hymn,
Come, Come Ye Saints, was written by William Clayton in the pattern
of All Is Well, using the same tune.  All Is Well is said to have
been based on the dying words of American Methodist Bishop William
M'Kendree/McKendree, who died in 1835.  Thus, the words of All Is
Well must have been written between 1835 and 1842, probably early in
that period.As far as I can tell, C. Dingley was a New York publisher of
broadside texts - five of them can be found at the American Memory
site, Library of Congress.  I don't know whether or not he published
music.  Therefore I'm suspicious of the attribution of this music to
him.In the current Mormon hymnal, I'm told, the tune is designated,
"English folk song."The first stanza of All Is Well follows.What's this that steals, that steals upon my frame?
   Is it death?  Is it death?
That soon will quench, will quench this vital flame,
   Is it death?  Is it death?
If this be death, I soon shall be
 From every pain and sorrow free,
I shall the King of glory see,
   All is well!  All is well!The tune follows
do = quarter note; do. = dotted quarter note; do/ = eighth note; - = tie
Syllables for notes below "do" are capitalized.  x = rest6/8  do. | do.-do re/ | mi.-mi do/ | Ti do/ re mi/ | fa x/
           mi/ re/ do/ | re. do Ti/ do.-do                  (repeat)
      mi//.-fa/// | so so/ so/ fa/ mi/ | fa fa/ fa/-mi/
              re/ | mi mi/ so/-fa/ mi/ | re re/ re
              Ti/ | do Ti/ do re/ | mi fa#/ so.-|-so x/
           mi/ re/ do/ | re. do Ti/ | do.-do ||Questions:Does anyone know anything about C. Dingley?
                           about the origin of the poetry, All Is Well?
                           about the "English folk song" attribution?(To me, the second strain very closely resembles When Johnny Comes
Marching Home.)--
john garst    [unmask]

Folks:I would guess that the lady is in the wrong pew in more ways than one, but if
anyone can help her, it will be someone on this list, not on Folklore.Ed--------------------------------------------------------------From     Mark Glazer <[unmask]>
Sent    Friday, March 26, 2004 11:07 am
To      [unmask]
Cc
Bcc
Subject         FW: Popular songs in 1850-----Original Message-----
From: Meredith Eliassen [[unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:53 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Popular songs in 1850I am working on a project about boardinghouse culture in San
Francisco, California during the gold rush (1849-1855).  Can you
refer me to a resources that might have popular songs or camp songs
from this period, I want to get a better sense of the local music
scene because San Francisco had a strong street culture, that might
have blended American, Jewish, Chinese, Pacific Rim, and sailors
songs.Any assistance would be appreciated,Meredith Eliassen
--
Meredith Eliassen
Curator, Archer Collection of Historic Children's Materials
Special Collections and Archives Department
J. Paul Leonard Library
1630 Holloway Avenue
San Francisco, CA. 94132-4030

In the medieval period red hair was associated with, among other undesirable characteristics, lust.  Anyone think this might play a part in the narrators disgust?Liz
Image 4-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Stamler [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 3:12 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Red HairHi folks:I was playing "Joe Bowers" on the radio a couple of days ago, and it brought
to mind a question I've had ever since I heard the song. To refresh your
memories:JOE BOWERSMy name it is Joe Bowers;
I have a brother Ike.
I came from old Missoura,
All the way from Pike.I used to know a girl there;
Her name was Sally Black.
I asked her if she'd marry me;
She said it was a whack.She said to me, "Joe Bowers.
Before we hitch for life,
You'd better get a little home
To take your little wife.' '"Oh Sally, dearest Sally,
Oh Sally, for your sake.
I'll go to California
And try and raise a stake."When I got in that country
I didn't have a red;
I had such wolfish feelings
I wished myself most dead.But the thughts of my dear Sally
Soon made those feelings git,
And whispered hope to Bowers,
I wish I had them yet.At last a letter,
Enough to make me swear,
That Sally married a butcher,
And the butcher had red hair.Before I got through reading,
At length the letter said:
Sally had a baby,
And the baby's head was red.This version was taken from Digital Tradition; in other ones, including the
one Pete Seeger popularized, there's another verse making a big deal about
the baby having red hair (I don't remember the exact lyrics well enough to
quote them).My question is, *why* is that such a big deal? If Sally marries a man with
red hair, a red-haired baby is not exactly a surprise. So why is the singer
so exercised about it, aside from being upset that his girl has thrown him
over? Is it possible that the marriage was something added later to make the
song respectable, and that Sally had done something else with the butcher
rather than marry him? Anyone know some pre-revival versions of the song?
The earliest publication given in the Ballad Index is 1856, in "Johnson's
Original Comic Songs", and it's been suggested that Johnson wrote it.Any guidance to the confused will be gratefully appreciated.Peace,
Paul

Two possible sources - which I have never seen, but know of - are Put's
California Songster, published by Appleton in the 1860's and  A San
Francisco Songster (1849-1939) published by the WPA in 1939.  I may have
another lead at home. I googled "San Francisco songs 1849" and got
11,500  hits.  At least one early hit listed about 7 or 8 songs.  If she
wants to check them all out, that's called scholarship (if not
insanity).Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 3/26/2004 3:30:55 PM >>>
Folks:I would guess that the lady is in the wrong pew in more ways than one,
but if
anyone can help her, it will be someone on this list, not on Folklore.Ed--------------------------------------------------------------From     Mark Glazer <[unmask]>
Sent    Friday, March 26, 2004 11:07 am
To      [unmask]
Cc
Bcc
Subject         FW: Popular songs in 1850-----Original Message-----
From: Meredith Eliassen [[unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:53 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Popular songs in 1850I am working on a project about boardinghouse culture in San
Francisco, California during the gold rush (1849-1855).  Can you
refer me to a resources that might have popular songs or camp songs
from this period, I want to get a better sense of the local music
scene because San Francisco had a strong street culture, that might
have blended American, Jewish, Chinese, Pacific Rim, and sailors
songs.Any assistance would be appreciated,Meredith Eliassen
--
Meredith Eliassen
Curator, Archer Collection of Historic Children's Materials
Special Collections and Archives Department
J. Paul Leonard Library
1630 Holloway Avenue
San Francisco, CA. 94132-4030

On 3/26/04, edward cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>I would guess that the lady is in the wrong pew in more ways than one, but if
>anyone can help her, it will be someone on this list, not on Folklore.
>
>Ed
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>From     Mark Glazer <[unmask]>
>Sent    Friday, March 26, 2004 11:07 am
>To      [unmask]
>Cc
>Bcc
>Subject         FW: Popular songs in 1850
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Meredith Eliassen [[unmask]]
>Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:53 AM
>To: [unmask]
>Subject: Popular songs in 1850
>
>
>I am working on a project about boardinghouse culture in San
>Francisco, California during the gold rush (1849-1855).  Can you
>refer me to a resources that might have popular songs or camp songs
>from this period, I want to get a better sense of the local music
>scene because San Francisco had a strong street culture, that might
>have blended American, Jewish, Chinese, Pacific Rim, and sailors
>songs.
>
>Any assistance would be appreciated,I know several books with sections on the Gold Rush. The one
that's had the widest distribution is probably Irwin Silber
and Earl Robinson's _Songs of the Great American West_. It is
in print in paperback, or was as of a couple of years ago.If one has access to a good enough library, of course, the place
to start is the various songbooks by "Old Put."
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Lewis and Friends:Google threatens to replace research, if not all intelligent thought.  You can
use it as a phonebook, UPS package tracker and translator.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, March 26, 2004 1:39 pm
Subject: Re: Aid to the Needy> Two possible sources - which I have never seen, but know of - are Put's
> California Songster, published by Appleton in the 1860's and  A San
> Francisco Songster (1849-1939) published by the WPA in 1939.  I may have
> another lead at home. I googled "San Francisco songs 1849" and got
> 11,500  hits.  At least one early hit listed about 7 or 8 songs.  If she
> wants to check them all out, that's called scholarship (if not
> insanity).
>
> Lew Becker
>
> >>> [unmask] 3/26/2004 3:30:55 PM >>>
> Folks:
>
> I would guess that the lady is in the wrong pew in more ways than one,
> but if
> anyone can help her, it will be someone on this list, not on Folklore.
>
> Ed
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From     Mark Glazer <[unmask]>
> Sent    Friday, March 26, 2004 11:07 am
> To      [unmask]
> Cc
> Bcc
> Subject         FW: Popular songs in 1850
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Meredith Eliassen [[unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:53 AM
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Popular songs in 1850
>
>
> I am working on a project about boardinghouse culture in San
> Francisco, California during the gold rush (1849-1855).  Can you
> refer me to a resources that might have popular songs or camp songs
> from this period, I want to get a better sense of the local music
> scene because San Francisco had a strong street culture, that might
> have blended American, Jewish, Chinese, Pacific Rim, and sailors
> songs.
>
> Any assistance would be appreciated,
>
> Meredith Eliassen
> --
> Meredith Eliassen
> Curator, Archer Collection of Historic Children's Materials
> Special Collections and Archives Department
> J. Paul Leonard Library
> 1630 Holloway Avenue
> San Francisco, CA. 94132-4030
>

Hey all:
  In response to Paul's red-head-query:""My question is, *why* is that such a big deal? If Sally marries a man
with
red hair, a red-haired baby is not exactly a surprise. So why is the
singer
so exercised about it, aside from being upset that his girl has thrown
him
over?"Red hair is genetically recessive; it takes two red-haired people to
make a red-headed baby. Maybe this has something to do with early
paternity testing?On a side note - excellent article in the New Yorker this week about
Ed's book about Woody Guthrie! Congratulations to our list-mom!Beth Brooks

Bob:Send this to [unmask]Ed----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, March 26, 2004 1:47 pm
Subject: Re: Aid to the Needy> On 3/26/04, edward cray wrote:
>
> >Folks:
> >
> >I would guess that the lady is in the wrong pew in more ways than one,
> but if
> >anyone can help her, it will be someone on this list, not on Folklore.
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >>From     Mark Glazer <[unmask]>
> >Sent    Friday, March 26, 2004 11:07 am
> >To      [unmask]
> >Cc
> >Bcc
> >Subject         FW: Popular songs in 1850
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Meredith Eliassen [[unmask]]
> >Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:53 AM
> >To: [unmask]
> >Subject: Popular songs in 1850
> >
> >
> >I am working on a project about boardinghouse culture in San
> >Francisco, California during the gold rush (1849-1855).  Can you
> >refer me to a resources that might have popular songs or camp songs
> >from this period, I want to get a better sense of the local music
> >scene because San Francisco had a strong street culture, that might
> >have blended American, Jewish, Chinese, Pacific Rim, and sailors
> >songs.
> >
> >Any assistance would be appreciated,
>
> I know several books with sections on the Gold Rush. The one
> that's had the widest distribution is probably Irwin Silber
> and Earl Robinson's _Songs of the Great American West_. It is
> in print in paperback, or was as of a couple of years ago.
>
> If one has access to a good enough library, of course, the place
> to start is the various songbooks by "Old Put."
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 1078 Colne Street
> Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
> 651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>

Beth:Thank you for noting _The New Yorker_ review of _Ramblin' Man._If I may advise, however, at the risk of seeming ungracious, I am not the
"list mom," a title which adheres permanently to Ms. Marge Steiner.  I am, at
best, the list bastard.Thanks anyway for the promotion.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, March 26, 2004 3:45 pm
Subject: Re: Red Hair> Hey all:
>  In response to Paul's red-head-query:
>
> ""My question is, *why* is that such a big deal? If Sally marries a man
> with
> red hair, a red-haired baby is not exactly a surprise. So why is the
> singer
> so exercised about it, aside from being upset that his girl has thrown
> him
> over?"
>
> Red hair is genetically recessive; it takes two red-haired people to
> make a red-headed baby. Maybe this has something to do with early
> paternity testing?
>
> On a side note - excellent article in the New Yorker this week about
> Ed's book about Woody Guthrie! Congratulations to our list-mom!
>
> Beth Brooks
>

At 05:03 PM 3/26/2004, you wrote:
>Lewis and Friends:
>
>Google threatens to replace research, if not all intelligent thought.  You can
>use it as a phonebook, UPS package tracker and translator.
>
>EdBut is it warm and cuddly in bed, like a book?Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Don't know about warm or cuddly but...Over the last eight years I've worked from home. There is much to be
said about the pleasures of internet labor but nothing can replace the
smell of a new book or the musty aroma one finds in archival material.Paul Garon wrote:> At 05:03 PM 3/26/2004, you wrote:
>
>> Lewis and Friends:
>>
>> Google threatens to replace research, if not all intelligent
>> thought.  You can
>> use it as a phonebook, UPS package tracker and translator.
>>
>> Ed
>
>
>
> But is it warm and cuddly in bed, like a book?
>
> Paul Garon
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beth Brooks" <[unmask]><< In response to Paul's red-head-query:""My question is, *why* is that such a big deal? If Sally marries a man
with
red hair, a red-haired baby is not exactly a surprise. So why is the
singer
so exercised about it, aside from being upset that his girl has thrown
him
over?"Red hair is genetically recessive; it takes two red-haired people to
make a red-headed baby. Maybe this has something to do with early
paternity testing?>>So? That means that both Sally and the butcher have red hair, and again,
where's the surprise? We *know* the butcher has red hair -- the song says
so. And we're told Sally married the butcher. So why is it such a big deal?Oh, and I don't buy the "lust" argument; this isn't a song loaded with
symbolism, especially medieval symbolism. But the guy is clearly exercised
over the red hair in a way that the given facts don't explain.Peace,
Paul

I highly recommend Alan Jabbour's re-release of early
Hollow Rock String Band recordings. Few better
examples of solid, straight-ahead playing in this
genre exist. I have redone his original
communication-- tune list, description, how to order,
etc. as an easy-to-read PDF and would be glad to send
it to anyone.Cliff Abrams

The only book I have specifically on this subject is the excellent 'The
Songs of the Gold Rush' Dwyer and Lingenfelter 1965 Univ Ca, which is in
fact dedicated to 'Old Put'
SteveG

Surely she's just making the statement that the baby can't be Joe's.
Just in case he's got that notion.
SteveG

Have a look at Jean Ritchie's version in Folk Songs of the Southern
Appalachians. To stress the joke she even reiterates the sentiments of the
last two lines. All her family were redheads by the way.
SteveG

On 3/27/04, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Beth Brooks" <[unmask]>
>
><< In response to Paul's red-head-query:
>
>""My question is, *why* is that such a big deal? If Sally marries a man
>with
>red hair, a red-haired baby is not exactly a surprise. So why is the
>singer
>so exercised about it, aside from being upset that his girl has thrown
>him
>over?"
>
>Red hair is genetically recessive; it takes two red-haired people to
>make a red-headed baby. Maybe this has something to do with early
>paternity testing?>>
>
>So? That means that both Sally and the butcher have red hair, and again,
>where's the surprise? We *know* the butcher has red hair -- the song says
>so. And we're told Sally married the butcher. So why is it such a big deal?
>
>Oh, and I don't buy the "lust" argument; this isn't a song loaded with
>symbolism, especially medieval symbolism. But the guy is clearly exercised
>over the red hair in a way that the given facts don't explain.My assumption was always that the red-haired baby was born at, let
us say, a surprisingly early date. I was surprised, in looking over
my library, that all the versions I checked had the ending you
described, in which the baby was apparently born well after the marriage.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 01:03:46 -0600, Paul Stamler wrote:>So? That means that both Sally and the butcher have red hair, and again,
>where's the surprise? We *know* the butcher has red hair -- the song says
>so. And we're told Sally married the butcher. So why is it such a big deal?
>
>Oh, and I don't buy the "lust" argument; this isn't a song loaded with
>symbolism, especially medieval symbolism. But the guy is clearly exercised
>over the red hair in a way that the given facts don't explain.Reading A Lomax' comments on it may shed some dim light.  _FS of N Amer_,
[1960], p328.  Lomax puts a very strong case that _in the era of the
song's popularity_ it was considered to be very funny, indeed.  It was a
hit on the plains, among the bull-whackers, Johnston's Minstrels, etc and
"both sides of the Civil War.  In 1904-5, John found it still popular
among cowboys & miners.  [Silber, _..of the West_ {1967 & 1995} notes it
was generally a cappella so we reduce any argument for its popularity
being a great hoedown tune.]  No, it's the joke.Alan Lomax:"As late as the thirties, Sally's awful red-haired baby used to send
audiences into fits of laughter, with changing customs and a relaxing of
sexual tensions, the joke does not seem nearly so funny to us today, and
the song is hardly ever sung.  During the mauve decade, however, Joe
Bowers was one of our national folk heroes, and in 1897 the Missouri
Legislature 'rared back' and passed a resolution to erect a monument to
him. The bill never came up for a vote."So given that and the "common knowledge" that if a joke has to be
explained to you, you'll never get it.  You (we, I)'ll never get it.Lomax passes on that Frank Swift "...is said to have composed it at a
campfire on the prairie to tease on of the boys, whose name was Joe
Bowers."Silber is strong that the story would be Apocryphal but I am always
interested in the oral tradition that sometimes comes _along_ with a song.
It might offer some understanding of the 'set' in which the song was used
- ie, what the singers/listeners thought it meant.Silber gives a context that it was sung by both Blues and Grays "...with
an unrestrained relish, particularly savoring the slightly daring
implications of 'Sally had a baby, and the baby had red hair.'"  And that
the theme "found its way into" many ballads.So I can only wimpishly & modestly suggest that it's the time frame that
counts.  Although Joe's been out west "at length" and maybe two times "at
length," Sally has been "untrue" to him.  Simply getting a Dear John
letter doesn't seem so funny but if the baby was born within nine month's
of Joe's departure, AND had red hair, that would imply something for sure.The only other thing I can think of is that it was valid teasing to the
legendary campfire Joe - that not only was his girl untrue to him but she
had already had sex and a baby.  Even if legitimate, it's still a "Yo'
Momma" on Joe.Now if it had been a joke about his computer crashing and he hadn't backed
up all week, we'd _all_ understand it.  That's timeless, of course.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

>Hi folks:
>
>I was playing "Joe Bowers" on the radio a couple of days ago, and it brought
>to mind a question I've had ever since I heard the song. To refresh your
>memories:
>...>This version was taken from Digital Tradition; in other ones, including the
>one Pete Seeger popularized, there's another verse making a big deal about
>the baby having red hair (I don't remember the exact lyrics well enough to
>quote them).<unlurk>Seems to me that the missing verse is important. What I remember is
that it said, she didn't say whether it was a boy or girl, only that
the its hair "was inclined to be red". Usually  when you tell someone
about a baby, the first thing you say is whether it was a boy or
girl.  Sure seems to fit with the notion that she was only telling
him that to make it clear that it was the butcher's baby, and not his.On the other hand, I think I remember a version where the baby IS
his, she HASN'T married anyone else, and again she tells him the
baby's hair is red without mentioning whether it is boy or girl. And
he is filled with (happy) confusion.I'm not convinced that red hair is a simple recessive -- here's one
quote on red hair:"If someone has one of about four of five variations of this gene,
and if the variation is inherited from both parents, then they are
likely to be red haired. If the variation has been inherited from
just one parent, they have an increased chance of being red haired.'
(From
<http://www.arts.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?xml=/connected/2002/10/04/ecfhair04.xml&sSheet=/connected/2002/10/04/ixconn.html>.)<lurk>
--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

Paul,
My guess is that someplace along the line some specific has been lost
from the song; a piece of information that would tell you the baby was born
less than 9 months after the singer's breakup with the woman.
Yrs,
Barbara

Hold on, folks, I feel a theme coming on,
People born in the nineteenth century would have been familiar with the
joke as it is a motif that ends a whole category of comic songs then
extant,
probably the best remembered being 'Navvy Boots / Kettlesmock' in which
the baby / babies are born with either some trade mark of the father or
something connected with the actual conception, proving him the father.
Other examples
'Widow Bell' & 'Spider & Bluebottle' both in the Madden Collection.
'A Chip off the Old Block' c1850 Music Hall child born with father's
wooden leg.
If you want to go back even further into more serious stuff try out Child 5
Gilbrenton--last couple of stanzas of versions ABCDE
Or not!
SteveG
PS Can anybody add to the list?

I seem to recall [dimly] from HS biology that each parent might provide
a recessive gene [i.e. neither parent has red hair] which would result
in a child with red hair.Alan Ackerman wrote:>> Hi folks:
>>
>> I was playing "Joe Bowers" on the radio a couple of days ago, and it
>> brought
>> to mind a question I've had ever since I heard the song. To refresh your
>> memories:
>>
>
> ...
>
>> This version was taken from Digital Tradition; in other ones,
>> including the
>> one Pete Seeger popularized, there's another verse making a big deal
>> about
>> the baby having red hair (I don't remember the exact lyrics well
>> enough to
>> quote them).
>
>
> <unlurk>
>
> Seems to me that the missing verse is important. What I remember is
> that it said, she didn't say whether it was a boy or girl, only that
> the its hair "was inclined to be red". Usually  when you tell someone
> about a baby, the first thing you say is whether it was a boy or
> girl.  Sure seems to fit with the notion that she was only telling
> him that to make it clear that it was the butcher's baby, and not his.
>
> On the other hand, I think I remember a version where the baby IS
> his, she HASN'T married anyone else, and again she tells him the
> baby's hair is red without mentioning whether it is boy or girl. And
> he is filled with (happy) confusion.
>
> I'm not convinced that red hair is a simple recessive -- here's one
> quote on red hair:
>
> "If someone has one of about four of five variations of this gene,
> and if the variation is inherited from both parents, then they are
> likely to be red haired. If the variation has been inherited from
> just one parent, they have an increased chance of being red haired.'
> (From
> <http://www.arts.telegraph.co.uk/connected/main.jhtml?xml=/connected/2002/10/04/ecfhair04.xml&sSheet=/connected/2002/10/04/ixconn.html>.)
>
> <lurk>
> --
> Alan Ackerman, [unmask]
>

At 11:09 AM 3/27/2004, you wrote:>The only other thing I can think of is that it was valid teasing to the
>legendary campfire Joe - that not only was his girl untrue to him but she
>had already had sex and a baby.  Even if legitimate, it's still a "Yo'
>Momma" on Joe.Following Abby's notion above, the red hair on the baby would be an
ever-present and stark reminder of said unfaithfulness, too, always around
to remind him (and his friends) of his role as a cuckold.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

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In a message dated Sunday, March 28, 2004 6:10 PM John Moulden writes:> Broomiclaw> Wonderful the capacity for co-operative research - whoever scanned the
Times didn't correct Broomiclaw to BROOMIELAW! I'm pleased to get > such
speedy confirmation - for both of us. I'm also pleased that my conjectural
dates for Walter Kelly are being confirmed!Thanks again.  I would be surprised if that were the only thing I couldn't
get right.Ben Schwartz

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Oh no.He'll be missed.

Hi!        More songsters than usual so I am splitting the list into two
postings. Have fun with thes while I work on part 2. :-)        SONGSTERS        2234195564 - harrigan&hart's regular army songster, 1874, $19.95
(ends Mar-30-04 10:35:43 PST)        3904838396 - The Republican Campaign Songster, 1864, $42.99
(ends Mar-30-04 14:06:41 PST)        2234501431 - Kingdom Coming, $9.95 (ends Mar-31-04 16:40:49 PST)
The seller calls this a songster but I think that broadside would be a
better description.        3598127694 - The Harp of Erin Songster, $35 (ends Apr-01-04
18:24:09 PST)        3806297941 - May Shaw Burlesque Company Songster, $14.95 (ends
Apr-01-04 18:03:16 PST)        3905182786 - Blaine & Logan Campaign Songster, 1884, $9.95 (ends
Apr-01-04 18:06:52 PST)        3905183414 - Garfield & Arthur Campaign Songbook, 1880, $11.51
(ends Apr-01-04 18:12:04 PST)        4200177805 - Put's Original California Songster, 1868, $95
w/reserve (ends Apr-02-04 21:38:22 PST) This is the songster mentioned
on the list last week. This copy has now been relisted twice. I suspect
that the seller has put his starting price too high.        3905181423 - Harrison and Morton Tippecanoe Campaign Songster,
1888, $19.39 (ends Apr-04-04 18:59:06 PDT)        3714685689 - The Columbian Songster, 1909, $3 (ends Apr-04-04
20:36:48 PDT)        4200765861 - The American Minstrel Songster, 1881, $9 (ends
Apr-05-04 09:45:16 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Hi!        OK - This is it until next week! :-)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3597522181 - The First Book of Irish Ballads by O'Keefe, 1963,
$12 (ends Mar-30-04 09:57:27 PST)        3598080400 - Sang Branch Settlers / Folksongs And Tales Of A
Kentucky Mountain Family by Roberts, 1974, $23.45 (ends Mar-30-04
14:00:43 PST)        3597601113 - Minstrelsy of England by Moffat, 1901, $75 AU (ends
Mar-30-04 14:33:39 PST)        3713552494 - FOLK SONGS OF THE SOUTHERN APPALACHIANS by Ritchie,
1965, $16 (ends Mar-30-04 17:15:32 PST)        3597653484 - Frontier Times, April 1935, $5.95 (ends Mar-30-04
18:39:30 PST) inc. article Trailing A Ballad by White on the origins of
Home on the Range        3597759121 - Irish Ballad Poetry by Duncathail(Varian), 1897,
$15 (ends Mar-31-04 09:03:37 PST)        3597829669 - Songs and Ballads of Sport and Pastime by Tomlinson,
1900?, 2.95 GBP (ends Mar-31-04 14:05:17 PST)        3713822192 - English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians
by Sharp & Karpeles, volume 1, 1932, $38 (ends Mar-31-04 19:08:31 PST)        3597908936 - The Vocal Lyre: A Collection of Popular National
Songs, 1823, $10 (ends Mar-31-04 23:46:09 PST)        3597909774 - Whistle-Binkie; A Collection Of Songs For The Social
Circle, 1853, $15 (ends Mar-31-04 23:56:37 PST)        3598096532 - BALLADS MIGRANT IN NEW ENGLAND by Flanders & Olney,
1968, $9.99 (ends Apr-01-04 15:31:21 PST)        3598008748 - BALLADS AND FOLK SONGS OF THE SOUTHWEST by Moore,
1966, $5.95 (ends Apr-01-04 19:30:00 PST)        3598145881 - Larry Gorman: The Man Who Made the Songs by Ives,
1993 edition, $9.75 (ends Apr-01-04 19:40:30 PST)        3598164903 - Some Child Ballads on Hillbilly Records by
McCulloh, 1966, $8.99 (ends Apr-01-04 22:33:11 PST)        3597455581 - BALLADS AND SONGS OF LANCASHIRE by Harland &
Wilkinson, 1882, 14.99 GBP (ends Apr-02-04 03:08:27 PST)        4200142339 - Diggers' Songs by Fahey, 1996, $25 (ends Apr-02-04
17:23:53 PST)        3598084905 - Songs and ballads from Nova Scotia by Creighton,
1933, $6 w/reserve (ends Apr-02-04 21:30:00 PST)        4200193332 - Andersons Cumberland Ballads & Songs by Ellwood,
1904, 4.99 GBP (ends Apr-03-04 02:25:00 PST)        3714287385 - Irish Street Ballads by O'Lochlainn, 1958 reprint,
$9.50 (ends Apr-03-04 06:46:32 PST)        4200256978 - Folk Ballads & Songs of the Lower Labrador Coast
by Leach, 1965, $13.06 (ends Apr-03-04 09:36:21 PST)        4200344916 - Ancient And Modern Scottish Songs, Heroic Ballads,
Etc. by Herd, volume 2, 1776, $10.50 w/reserve (ends Apr-03-04 16:13:31 PST)        4200345847 - American Folksongs of Protest by Greenway, 1960,
$3 (ends Apr-03-04 16:19:31 PST)        4200400829 - Time Out Of Mind. Creswick Victoria Folksongs by
Anderson, 1974, $12 AU (ends Apr-03-04 23:36:13 PST)        3713867234 - TYNESIDE SONGSTER, 1970 reprint?, 0.95 GBP (ends
Apr-04-04 05:01:40 PDT)        3905585254 - BLUE GRASS ROY'S GREATEST COLLECTION OF COWBOY AND
MOUNTAIN BALLADS, 1935, $2.50 (ends Apr-04-04 15:08:47 PDT)        3598088041 - THE STORY OF AUSTRALIAN FOLK SONG by Anderson,
1970 edition, $10 AU (ends Apr-04-04 15:38:04 PDT)        4200650803 - Shanties from the Seven Seas by Hugill, 1961,
$49.99 (ends Apr-04-04 19:11:18 PDT)        3713418719 - 2 books (Cowboy and Western Songs by Fife, 1969 and
Cowboy Songs and Other Frontier Ballads by Lomax, 1938), $8.99 (ends
Apr-04-04 21:30:00 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        4003885885 & 4003885901 - Folksongs Sung in Ulster Volumes 1 & 2,
LPs, 4.99 GBP (ends Mar-31-04 08:38:33 PST)        3597856300 - Unpublished NEGRO RAIL RAILROAD TRAIN Songs, CD,
$6.99 (ends Mar-31-04 16:56:26 PST) This seller has several CDs on Ebay
at the moment. All claim to be "unpublished" material.        4004244391 - Brave Boys New England Traditions in Folk Music, LP,
1978, $5.99 (ends Apr-02-04 09:14:44 PST)        3714522912 - APPALACHIAN JOURNEY: FROM THE ORIGINAL BALLAD OF TOM
DOOLEY TO THE ORIGINS OF BLUEGRASS by Lomax, VHS, $12.50 (ends
Apr-04-04 11:19:00 PDT)                        Happy Bidding!
                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Hi folks:I also have fond memories of Bob, from his visit to Focal Point in 1998 with
various family members. They put a table on the stage, poured pints and had
a good old-fashioned pub sing, most delightful. At one point he sang a very
un-PC line about wife-beating (in "Oh, Good Ale!"), at which point he turned
his eyes upward and interjected, "Sorry, God -- those are the words!", then
continued. I never met a man with a more infectious twinkle in his eye.Little known (because not recorded, to my knowledge), he was a
more-than-good guitarist and singer of Ameican country blues, having become
a fan and purchased records by the likes of Blind Willie McTell when they
were first issued in the late 20s and early 30s. A most remarkable man, a
real gentleman, and delightful company.Peace,
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dolores Nichols" <[unmask]><<        3597856300 - Unpublished NEGRO RAIL RAILROAD TRAIN Songs, CD,
$6.99 (ends Mar-31-04 16:56:26 PST) This seller has several CDs on Ebay
at the moment. All claim to be "unpublished" material.>>I think the claim is mostly right for this CD, at least; most of the tracks
on it are AFS field recordings, and although a couple of the Henry
Truvillion pieces have been reissued, I don't think the rest have. Some of
his other recordings also look interesting; there are three volumes of
American slave narratives, most of them dating from the 1930s collection
project, but a few are dated 1975 (the interviewee claimed to be 130 years
old in that one). There's also a CD of material from John & Ruby Lomax's
1939 southern collecting trip, but I think all of that material is available
on the American Memory website. That may, in fact, be the provenance of the
recordings on that disc.Looking over the other stuff, he certainly has an eclectic selection. If I
need a manual for a Tektronix scope, or some early racy flicks, I know where
to look.<<        4004244391 - Brave Boys New England Traditions in Folk Music, LP,
1978, $5.99 (ends Apr-02-04 09:14:44 PST)>>I think this has been reissued on CD?Peace,
Paul

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There's nothing in the original text that clarifies the time elapsed between
Joe's departure from Sally and the birth of the redhead.  A text from a
Johnson broadside of ca 1860s, which I believe is close to the original (but
not identical--note the probable typos) readsMy name is Joe Bowers, I've got a brother Ike,
I came from old Missouri all the way from Pike,
I'll tell you why I left thar, and why I come to roam,
And leave my poor old mammy so far away from home.I used to court a gal thar, her name was Sally Black,
I axed her if she'd marry me, she said it was a whack;
Says she to me:  Joe Bowers, before we hitch for life,
You ought to get a little home to keep your little wife.Oh, Sally; dearest Sally, oh! Sally, for your sake,
I'll go to California, and try to raise a stake;
Says she to me, Joe Bowers, you are the man to win,
Here's a kiss to bind the bargain, and she hove a dozen in.When I got in that country, I hadn't "nary red,"
I had such wolfish feelings, I wished myself most dead;
But the thoughts of my dear Sally soon made them feelins git,
And whispered hopes to Bowers, I wish I 'em yit [? perhaps, "wish I had 'em
yet"].At length I went to mining, put in my biggest licks,
Went down upon the boulders just like a thousand bricks,
I worked both late and early, in rain, in sun, in snow;
I was working for my Sally--'twas all the same to Joe.At length I got a letter from my dear brother Ike,
It came from old Missouri, all the way from Pike;
It brought to me the darndest news that ever you did hear,--
My heart is almost bustin', so pray excuse this tear.It said that Sal was false to me, her love for me had fled,
She'd got married to a butcher, the butcher's hair was red;
And more than that the letter said, it's enough to make me swear,
That Sally had a baby, the baby had red hair.Now I've told you all about this sad affair,
'Bout Sally marrying a butcher, that butcher with red hair.
But whether 'twas a boy or gal child, the letter never said,
It only said that the baby's hair was inclined to be red.Johnson is one of the contenders for authorship; another is a John Woodward,
who worked with him.  Old Put (John Stone) was believed by Louise Pound to
be the author, but he didn't publish it in either of his two very popular
songsters of the period.
Norm Cohen

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Think that the FRISCO attribution as composer may apply to Joe FRISCO.
Pull the following two comments from a large number of hits. Interesting
in terms of Les' contention that the song title related to a dance step
as well as FRISCO's connection to New Orleans. In later years he was a
music publisher. There is an autobiography available.In 1913 there was a famous vaudeville stuttering comedian and dancer
called Joe Frisco. His act Frisco and McDermott was playing in New
Orleans and a group of local musicians were assembled as a back-up band
by New Orlean's trombonist Tom Brown
<http://www.redhotjazz.com/brown.html>. Frisco was so impressed with the
"Jass" music he heard that he kept talking about it when he returned to
Chicago. In 1915 Frisco asked Brown
<http://www.redhotjazz.com/brown.html> to assemble a group and bring
them north for an engagement at Lamb's Cafe in Chicago. The band proved
to be a popular attraction. Another local promoter also wanted a "Jass"
band and went to New Orleans where he found one called Stein's Dixie
Jass Band <http://www.redhotjazz.com/steins.html>. This band would later
form the nucleus of the Original Dixieland Jass Band
<http://www.redhotjazz.com/odjb.html>. Tom Brown's
<http://www.redhotjazz.com/brown.html> band toured the vaudeville
circuit, but didn't like all of the travel and broke up. A New York
promoter contacted Brown <http://www.redhotjazz.com/brown.html> about a
job, not knowing that his band had broken up, and Brown recommended
Stein's Dixie Jass Band <http://www.redhotjazz.com/steins.html> for the
gig. Stein didn't want to go, but the rest of the band accepted and
moved to New York where they became the Original Dixieland Jass Band
<http://www.redhotjazz.com/odjb.html> and went on to record the first
Jazz record in 1917.For many years the only white dancing that resembled the open dramatic
dancing that came in with the swing period was that of Joe Frisco, first
called “The American Apache,” later billed as “The Jazz Dancer,” a
perennial favorite of the Orpheum Circuit and Ziegfeld’s Follies. The
more sophisticated youngsters of the Twenties idolized him, and an
imitation of his routines was sure to get you thrown off the dance
floor, even of Merry Gardens or the toughest South State Street joint .
. . as would, for that matter, a good hot Valentino tango. Frisco had
quite a tango of his own — the first “air steps” I ever saw, and, alas,
could never imitate successfully! (When I think of the innocent girls
that risked their lovely necks in these capers!) Frisco claimed to be
the first white entertainer to put a jazz band in Palace Time

Yes, the New World recording of "Brave Boys" has been
released as a CD. Folk-Legacy carries it, since Sandy
Paton edited it and recorded most of the material
included.
     Sandy
>
> <<        4004244391 - Brave Boys New England
> Traditions in Folk Music, LP,
> 1978, $5.99 (ends Apr-02-04 09:14:44 PST)>>
>
> I think this has been reissued on CD?
>
> Peace,
> Paul

I have the following, and expect the S.F. or UC library will also.Black, Eleanora, and Sidney Robertson.  The Gold Rush Song Book:  Comprising
a Group of Twenty-Five Authentic Ballads as they were Sung by the Men who
Dug Gold in California During the Period of the Great Gold Rush of 1849.
San Francisco:  Colt Press, 1940.
Dwyer, Richard A., and Lingenfelter, Richard E.  Songs of the Gold Rush,
pprbk.  Berkeley & L.A.:  U. C. Press, 1964.
Lengyel, Cornel, ed.  Music of the Gold Rush Era.  History of Music in San
Francisco Series, Vol. One: January, 1939.  New York:  AMS Press, 1972, rept
from 1939 edn.
Miners Songs of '49.  Reproductions of Authentic and Original Songs sung in
the Gold Rush, taken from the famous Put's California Songster...  Grass
Valley, Calif.:  Noolcam Co., 1948.
Sherwin, Sterling, and Louis Katzman.  Songs of the Gold Miners.  NY: Carl
Fischer, 1932; 8½ x 11 pprbk folio.
Put's Original California Songster, by John Stone.  (San Francisco:  D. E.
Appleton & Co., 5th ed., 1854).
Put's Golden Songster, by John Stone.  (San Francisco:  D. E. Appleton &
Co., 1858.)> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Meredith Eliassen [[unmask]]
> > >Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:53 AM
> > >To: [unmask]
> > >Subject: Popular songs in 1850
> > >
> > >
> > >I am working on a project about boardinghouse culture in San
> > >Francisco, California during the gold rush (1849-1855).  Can you
> > >refer me to a resources that might have popular songs or camp songs
> > >from this period, I want to get a better sense of the local music
> > >scene because San Francisco had a strong street culture, that might
> > >have blended American, Jewish, Chinese, Pacific Rim, and sailors
> > >songs.
> > >
> > >Any assistance would be appreciated,
> >

> I have the following, and expect the S.F. or UC library will also.
>
> Black, Eleanora, and Sidney Robertson.  The Gold Rush Song Book:
> ...[and a number of others]....Norm,Almeda Riddle says that "I am a man of constant sorrow" originated as a
gold-rush song.Is it in any of your gold-rush books?
Do you know anything else to confirm her claim?Thanks.John Garst

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I am also interested in ordering a copy of Rusell and Atkinson, FOLK SONG: TRADITION, REVIVAL AND RE-CREATION. Ronald Cohen ([unmask])

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
Norm Cohen, writes:> It said that Sal was false to me, her love for me had fled,
> She'd got married to a butcher, the butcher's hair was red;
> And more than that the letter said, it's enough to make me swear,
> That Sally had a baby, the baby had red hair.Well, here's a tardy suggestion:  Joe & Sal had -- shall we say --
preconsummated their marriage, and when it turned out that Sal had
gone off with the butcher, Joe hoped that at least he had -- shall we
say -- precuckolded him; but the genetic datum on the baby deprived
Joe of that satisfaction.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Artificial intelligence means designing machines that we  :||
||:  understand as badly as we understand ourselves.           :||

I don't know of anything to support her claim.  Dick Burnett is usually
credited with writing it (out of older stuff, of course), and he published
it in his songbook in the early 1910s (I believe).  It's not in any gold
rush collection I know of.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 12:37 PM
Subject: Man of Constant Sorrow> > I have the following, and expect the S.F. or UC library will also.
> >
> > Black, Eleanora, and Sidney Robertson.  The Gold Rush Song Book:
> > ...[and a number of others]....
>
> Norm,
>
> Almeda Riddle says that "I am a man of constant sorrow" originated as a
> gold-rush song.
>
> Is it in any of your gold-rush books?
> Do you know anything else to confirm her claim?
>
> Thanks.
>
> John Garst
>

Ballad-Listers may like to know of a new discussion list just launched by the Traditional Song Forum. The Forum is an informal organisation of song researchers and collectors in Britain - many of whom will be familiar to you as Ballad List contributors. The new list will give us a chance to talk to each other and others who share our interests.
The first question has already been asked, and it's about American versions of The Two Sisters.To subscribeyou can send a blank email to.......[unmask]or you can go to ....www.groups.yahoo.com, register and  search for Tradsong. On finding
the group homepage there's a button to press!or
contact the moderator (Johnny Adams) at
[unmask]Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

----- Original Message -----
From: edward cray <[unmask]><<It is worth it.>>And I will add another probable advantage. While I have no knowledge, I'll
bet the new edition is printed on acid-free paper, which the old one sure as
hell wasn't. Mine is crumbling in the living room as we speak.Peace,
Paul