Response to John Garst and others for ordering EXPLORING ROOTS MUSIC: You have a few choices. First, the Scarecrow Press website (www.scarecrowpress.com), which I believe offers a discount, or call their order number (800/462-6420), or I guess from Amazon.com or any other book ordering company. I hope this helps (and positive feedback on Amazon.com would be most helpful). ron cohen

Folks:If enough of us get together to buy this, Dick Greenhaus might be able to discount the book.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: "Cohen, Ronald" <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, January 8, 2004 11:19 am
Subject: EXPLORING ROOTS MUSIC--how to order.> Response to John Garst and others for ordering EXPLORING ROOTS MUSIC: You
> have a few choices. First, the Scarecrow Press website
> (www.scarecrowpress.com), which I believe offers a discount, or call their
> order number (800/462-6420), or I guess from Amazon.com or any other book
> ordering company. I hope this helps (and positive feedback on Amazon.com
> would be most helpful). ron cohen
>

I ordered it from Amazon this morning.Mike Luster
KEDM FM
1800 Riverside Drive
Monroe, LA  71201Creole Statement/AmericanaRama
airs Saturdays 7-11PM CST
archived programs available at:
http://kedm.org/creolestatement/real.htm
http://kedm.org/americanarama/real.htm
KEDM.org
[unmask]
318-342-5565 studio line
318-324-1665 voice or fax"The music choices and opinions on these programs are my own and not those of
KEDM, its management, or the University of Louisiana at Monroe."

Once again yet--
If enough people (mebbe half a dozen or more) want to order a book, I'll
see if CAMSCO Music can get it. If so, I can offer a significantly lower
price than either the publisher or Amazon.If you're interested, let me know.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO Music
[unmask]Cohen, Ronald wrote:>Response to John Garst and others for ordering EXPLORING ROOTS MUSIC: You have a few choices. First, the Scarecrow Press website (www.scarecrowpress.com), which I believe offers a discount, or call their order number (800/462-6420), or I guess from Amazon.com or any other book ordering company. I hope this helps (and positive feedback on Amazon.com would be most helpful). ron cohen
>
>
>

Came across an article in the September 15 issue of the New Yorker in
the series Annals of Epidemiology entitled Jake Leg by Dan Baum. In it
he uses the work of Dr. John Morgan,  who according to Baum likes to
call himself a pharmaco-ethnnomusicologist, to track down the 1930s
outbreak of new kind of paralysis called Jake leg. It was caused by
drinking something called "jake" a Jamaica ginger extract. It afflicted
many souls across the country (55 cases in my hometown of Worcester MA)
(mostly poor males living alone in cheap rooming house who were
unemployed or in a menial job).  According to the author the outbreak
instigated an entire subset of folk music. Morgan has put together  a
CD collection of 17 tunes mentioning it.  The first person to record a
connection between jake and the paralysis may have been Ishmon Bracey,
the black blues singer who cut "Jake Liquor Blues in Grafton Wisconsin
in MArch of 1930. Baum says that "Morgan believes that no other
incident has inspired as much popular music as the jake-walk
epidemic.Morgan as a pharmaco-ethnnomusicologist pays particular
attention to the portrayal of intoxicants. Very interesting article
that I thought some in the group might like to read.GeorgeGeorge F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

For those who may be interested:  I think that there was extensive
discussion of this on the pre-war blues mailing list about the time
the article appeared.[unmask]You may have to become a list member to access it - I'm not sure.>Came across an article in the September 15 issue of the New Yorker in
>the series Annals of Epidemiology entitled Jake Leg by Dan Baum. In it
>he uses the work of Dr. John Morgan,  who according to Baum likes to
>call himself a pharmaco-ethnnomusicologist, to track down the 1930s
>outbreak of new kind of paralysis called Jake leg. It was caused by
>drinking something called "jake" a Jamaica ginger extract. It afflicted
>many souls across the country (55 cases in my hometown of Worcester MA)
>(mostly poor males living alone in cheap rooming house who were
>unemployed or in a menial job).  According to the author the outbreak
>instigated an entire subset of folk music. Morgan has put together  a
>CD collection of 17 tunes mentioning it.  The first person to record a
>connection between jake and the paralysis may have been Ishmon Bracey,
>the black blues singer who cut "Jake Liquor Blues in Grafton Wisconsin
>in MArch of 1930. Baum says that "Morgan believes that no other
>incident has inspired as much popular music as the jake-walk
>epidemic.Morgan as a pharmaco-ethnnomusicologist pays particular
>attention to the portrayal of intoxicants. Very interesting article
>that I thought some in the group might like to read.
>
>George
>
>
>George F. Madaus
>Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
>Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
>Boston College
>Chestnut Hill MA 02467
>[unmask]
>617. 552.4521
>617 552 8419 FAX--
john garst    [unmask]

Folks:I received this moments ago.  First UCLA, now Penn.  It would appear that
folklore studies are shriveling.  Certainly degree-granting programs are.Ed-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Folklorists and Advocates:I am forwarding to you the letter sent by Dan Ben-Amos concerning Penn's
administrational decision to suspend admission of new folklore students
for the
academic year of 2004-2005 which, as Professor Ben-Amos writes, " means a
terminal blow to the Graduate Program of Folklore and Folklife at the
University of Pennsylvania."

Any theories as to the cause of this? I would think the electronic frontier
would offer opportunities galore to folklorists and anthropologists.Paul GaronAt 03:29 PM 1/8/2004, you wrote:
>Folks:
>
>I received this moments ago.  First UCLA, now Penn.  It would appear that
>folklore studies are shriveling.  Certainly degree-granting programs are.
>
>Ed
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dear Folklorists and Advocates:
>
>I am forwarding to you the letter sent by Dan Ben-Amos concerning Penn's
>administrational decision to suspend admission of new folklore students
>for the
>academic year of 2004-2005 which, as Professor Ben-Amos writes, " means a
>terminal blow to the Graduate Program of Folklore and Folklife at the
>University of Pennsylvania."Paul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Is this a New World variant of Child 282? ;o)
Simon

Most sad. Kenny Goldstein is certainly whirrling in his grave. He feared this would happen after his retirement. ron cohen-----Original Message-----
From:   Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of Ed Cray
Sent:   Thu 1/8/2004 4:29 PM
To:     [unmask]
Cc:	
Subject:        The DwindlingFolks:I received this moments ago.  First UCLA, now Penn.  It would appear that
folklore studies are shriveling.  Certainly degree-granting programs are.Ed-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Folklorists and Advocates:I am forwarding to you the letter sent by Dan Ben-Amos concerning Penn's
administrational decision to suspend admission of new folklore students
for the
academic year of 2004-2005 which, as Professor Ben-Amos writes, " means a
terminal blow to the Graduate Program of Folklore and Folklife at the
University of Pennsylvania."

Don't know how much overlap there is between them but in addition to the
CD you mention there is an older one titled "Jake-Leg Blues" on on of
the smaller reissue labels. Quite a lot of comment on the subject, as I
recall, because "jake" was a poor mans drink [think sterno] during
prohibition.George Madaus wrote:> Came across an article in the September 15 issue of the New Yorker in
> the series Annals of Epidemiology entitled Jake Leg by Dan Baum. In it
> he uses the work of Dr. John Morgan,  who according to Baum likes to
> call himself a pharmaco-ethnnomusicologist, to track down the 1930s
> outbreak of new kind of paralysis called Jake leg. It was caused by
> drinking something called "jake" a Jamaica ginger extract. It afflicted
> many souls across the country (55 cases in my hometown of Worcester MA)
> (mostly poor males living alone in cheap rooming house who were
> unemployed or in a menial job).  According to the author the outbreak
> instigated an entire subset of folk music. Morgan has put together  a
> CD collection of 17 tunes mentioning it.  The first person to record a
> connection between jake and the paralysis may have been Ishmon Bracey,
> the black blues singer who cut "Jake Liquor Blues in Grafton Wisconsin
> in MArch of 1930. Baum says that "Morgan believes that no other
> incident has inspired as much popular music as the jake-walk
> epidemic.Morgan as a pharmaco-ethnnomusicologist pays particular
> attention to the portrayal of intoxicants. Very interesting article
> that I thought some in the group might like to read.
>
> George
>
>
> George F. Madaus
> Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
> Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
> Boston College
> Chestnut Hill MA 02467
> [unmask]
> 617. 552.4521
> 617 552 8419 FAX
>

In the article it was quite clear that jack was a poor man's drink.On Thursday, January 8, 2004, at 05:47  PM, Clifford Ocheltree wrote:> Don't know how much overlap there is between them but in addition to
> the
> CD you mention there is an older one titled "Jake-Leg Blues" on on of
> the smaller reissue labels. Quite a lot of comment on the subject, as I
> recall, because "jake" was a poor mans drink [think sterno] during
> prohibition.
>
> George Madaus wrote:
>
>> Came across an article in the September 15 issue of the New Yorker in
>> the series Annals of Epidemiology entitled Jake Leg by Dan Baum. In it
>> he uses the work of Dr. John Morgan,  who according to Baum likes to
>> call himself a pharmaco-ethnnomusicologist, to track down the 1930s
>> outbreak of new kind of paralysis called Jake leg. It was caused by
>> drinking something called "jake" a Jamaica ginger extract. It
>> afflicted
>> many souls across the country (55 cases in my hometown of Worcester
>> MA)
>> (mostly poor males living alone in cheap rooming house who were
>> unemployed or in a menial job).  According to the author the outbreak
>> instigated an entire subset of folk music. Morgan has put together  a
>> CD collection of 17 tunes mentioning it.  The first person to record a
>> connection between jake and the paralysis may have been Ishmon Bracey,
>> the black blues singer who cut "Jake Liquor Blues in Grafton Wisconsin
>> in MArch of 1930. Baum says that "Morgan believes that no other
>> incident has inspired as much popular music as the jake-walk
>> epidemic.Morgan as a pharmaco-ethnnomusicologist pays particular
>> attention to the portrayal of intoxicants. Very interesting article
>> that I thought some in the group might like to read.
>>
>> George
>>
>>
>> George F. Madaus
>> Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
>> Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
>> Boston College
>> Chestnut Hill MA 02467
>> [unmask]
>> 617. 552.4521
>> 617 552 8419 FAX
>>
>>
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

Some stuff about Collector Records, based on my memory and (mainly) Reg Hall's. More details to follow, perhaps.
Colin Pomeroy, who had a very small record shop at South Kensington, started a label called Jazz Selection about 1948, which later became called Jazz Collector. I don't think he issued anything original, but dubbed from old American 78s. HIs output was primarily jazz, but he did include some blues stuff, including Scrapper Blackwell. Then Paul Carter came along, and brought an interest in 'folk', and, now called Collector records, they issued a number of 7" EPs, and at least one 10" LP, of new recordings of people like Jeannie Robertson, Dominic Behan, Joe Heaney, Bob Davenport, etc. in 1959-1961.
Although on the 'Collector' label, these still bore the legend 'Produced by Jazz Selection [or] Selection records'
Paul Carter and Colin Pomeroy parted company sometime in the 1960s (I don't know why, but I don't think amicably) and we don't know where Colin Pomeroy is - we would very much like to know, if anyone can help.
As far as the prefixes go, it is clear that JEI designated Irish performances, JES was Scottish, but the two English ones that I have are both JEB and we don't know why - unless some other record company already used JEE - but that's just a guess.
Steve Roud--
Message sent with Supanet E-mail-----Original Message-----
From:     Nigel Gatherer <[unmask]>
To:       [unmask]
Subject:  Re: Collector Records> Fred McCormick wrote:
>
> > The...Collector's Four Sussex Singers EP is JEB 7.
> > Which caused me to lift an eyelid at the time. However, I think there
> > is some sort of national delineation involved in the prefix. JEB for
> > some reason or other = England.
>
> B for British? Not satisfactory but possibly a reason.
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> Friday-Monday: mailto:[unmask]
> Tuesday-Thursday: mailto:[unmask]Signup to supanet at https://signup.supanet.com/cgi-bin/signup?_origin=sigwebmail

On 1/8/04, Paul Garon wrote:>Any theories as to the cause of this? I would think the electronic frontier
>would offer opportunities galore to folklorists and anthropologists.There are only two ultimate causes: Nobody wants to learn, or nobody
wants to teach. I have to suspect the former. What sort of a job
does a folklore degree get you?And how many people even still know that folklore studies *exist*?If the situation is to be saved, we have to find a way to solve
that: Get the jobs out there, and remind people that the field
exists.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

It is disheartening for me: I've always felt that folklore studies have an important place in the academy and in the world.  and,  from a pragmatic standpoint, I still haven't been hired, even though I've had my doctorate for sixteen years.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Cohen, Ronald
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 5:07 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: The DwindlingMost sad. Kenny Goldstein is certainly whirrling in his grave. He feared this would happen after his retirement. ron cohen-----Original Message-----
From:   Forum for ballad scholars on behalf of Ed Cray
Sent:   Thu 1/8/2004 4:29 PM
To:     [unmask]
Cc:
Subject:        The DwindlingFolks:I received this moments ago.  First UCLA, now Penn.  It would appear that
folklore studies are shriveling.  Certainly degree-granting programs are.Ed-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Folklorists and Advocates:I am forwarding to you the letter sent by Dan Ben-Amos concerning Penn's
administrational decision to suspend admission of new folklore students
for the
academic year of 2004-2005 which, as Professor Ben-Amos writes, " means a
terminal blow to the Graduate Program of Folklore and Folklife at the
University of Pennsylvania."

Sounds very discouraging.  What schools are left, besides North Carolina,
Indiana and Texas?
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 1:29 PM
Subject: The Dwindling> Folks:
>
> I received this moments ago.  First UCLA, now Penn.  It would appear that
> folklore studies are shriveling.  Certainly degree-granting programs are.
>
> Ed
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Dear Folklorists and Advocates:
>
> I am forwarding to you the letter sent by Dan Ben-Amos concerning Penn's
> administrational decision to suspend admission of new folklore students
> for the
> academic year of 2004-2005 which, as Professor Ben-Amos writes, " means a
> terminal blow to the Graduate Program of Folklore and Folklife at the
> University of Pennsylvania."
>

well, for awhile, Ohio State had a thriving program, though I don't know its status.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Norm Cohen
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:42 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: The DwindlingSounds very discouraging.  What schools are left, besides North Carolina,
Indiana and Texas?
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 1:29 PM
Subject: The Dwindling> Folks:
>
> I received this moments ago.  First UCLA, now Penn.  It would appear that
> folklore studies are shriveling.  Certainly degree-granting programs are.
>
> Ed
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> Dear Folklorists and Advocates:
>
> I am forwarding to you the letter sent by Dan Ben-Amos concerning Penn's
> administrational decision to suspend admission of new folklore students
> for the
> academic year of 2004-2005 which, as Professor Ben-Amos writes, " means a
> terminal blow to the Graduate Program of Folklore and Folklife at the
> University of Pennsylvania."
>

Good People:I realize I will be throwing gasoline on a smouldering fire, or, to change metaphors entirely, I will be howling bootless into the wind, but I would like to point out that folklore, aka "folkloristics," is, in fact, a contrived profession.  (Note that the site from which I plucked the original message that fostered this thread is entitled "Public Folklore" or "Publore," and the denizens refer to each other as "publorians.")What happened, lo' these many years, is that those interested in folklore sought to split it off from "mainstream" disciplines, particularly English and anthropology.(My mentor, the great, the decent, the humane Wayland Hand, vacillated between folklore as a subset of Germanic studies or folklore as a discipline standing on its own.  How I wish I had discussed this with him.(And I call upon Norm Cohen, another of Wayland's students to weigh in here.)Folklore is a subset of literary studies when dealing with literate societies, and of anthropology/culture when dealing with preliterate or so-called "primitive" societies.  Long ago, there were those who sought to inflate the importance of folklore to "stand-alone" status; thus, Departments of/Programs in/Graduate Studies in Folklore.  The post-graudate jobs, however, were not to be found in folklore, but in English, Germanic Studies, Music, where- and whatever.  Hence the rush to state and federal shelter tents -- including national parks and preserves -- by beleagured graduates with folklore degrees but no academic job offers.Certainly having a folklorist check the use of the tab on the right rear pocket of Levi Strauss' overalls is useful when planning an exhibition at Sam Houston State Park, Texas (or whatever it was called).  But does this require a college degree in folklore?  And does it finally matter so long as the historical truth is displayed?All that aside, inevitably, as Bob Waltz has pointed out, the number of student applications would reflect the lack of real jobs.  After all, do we really need $50 K per annum folks to tell us "Levi Strauss patented his jeans in 18--...?"I can regret the demise of the Penn program.  As I did, sort of, of the UCLA program, of which I was once, long, long ago, a participant.  But I can still acknowledge that Indiana and Texas alone can provide all the doctorates needed for the job market, both academic and public.  Given the market realities, who needs UCLA and/or Penn?  And why should the taxpayers of California and the regents/trustees of private university Penn pay for a folklore program?Personally, I am NOT (note the emphasis) disheartened at what I have termed "The Dwindling."  Consider these points:1) The folk music revival burbles along, below the radar of the popular sales charts, but thriving nonetheless;2) Folklore, like 16th C. heroic studies, or Yurok speech patterns prior to the coming of the Spanish, cannot be said to be vital in the contemporary world.  We would like to maintain an awareness, a knowledge of such matters, but it can hardly be argued that the fostering of such knowledge is essential to our lives.
(And that may be why we on blalad-l so dote upon our specialized, happily shared knowledge; we love its arcane nature.)3) We on ballad-l, and our friends/colleagues on other list-servs continue to do our thing, to sing or research, to LOVE folk song and lore.  (I think it safe to say that John Garst needs no degree in folklore to run Ella Speed or John Henry to ground -- no matter what the academicians might whine.)And that, in my opinion, is enough.  Folklore lives, whether or not Penn realizes it, whether or not it should be a separate department with its own
(ahem) scholarly discipline, whether or not UCLA screws my dear Wayland Hand.Our job on ballad-l is to keep the great song/ballad corpus alive -- to sing it, to study it, to squabble about it, but above all to share it.  As our forebearers did.Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, January 8, 2004 6:04 pm
Subject: Re: The Dwindling> On 1/8/04, Paul Garon wrote:
>
> >Any theories as to the cause of this? I would think the electronic frontier
> >would offer opportunities galore to folklorists and anthropologists.
>
> There are only two ultimate causes: Nobody wants to learn, or nobody
> wants to teach. I have to suspect the former. What sort of a job
> does a folklore degree get you?
>
> And how many people even still know that folklore studies *exist*?
>
> If the situation is to be saved, we have to find a way to solve
> that: Get the jobs out there, and remind people that the field
> exists.
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."
>

The University of Oregon's folklore program is alive and, as far as I
know, thriving.  I can get statistics on numbers of students (and
faculty) later on, but I just wanted you all to know that.Anne Dhu McLucas, Univ. of Oregon School of Music (but participating
faculty member in the U of O Folklore program)On Thursday, January 8, 2004, at 07:42 PM, Norm Cohen wrote:> Sounds very discouraging.  What schools are left, besides North
> Carolina,
> Indiana and Texas?
> Norm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 1:29 PM
> Subject: The Dwindling
>
>
>> Folks:
>>
>> I received this moments ago.  First UCLA, now Penn.  It would appear
>> that
>> folklore studies are shriveling.  Certainly degree-granting programs
>> are.
>>
>> Ed
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
> ---
>> Dear Folklorists and Advocates:
>>
>> I am forwarding to you the letter sent by Dan Ben-Amos concerning
>> Penn's
>> administrational decision to suspend admission of new folklore
>> students
>> for the
>> academic year of 2004-2005 which, as Professor Ben-Amos writes, "
>> means a
>> terminal blow to the Graduate Program of Folklore and Folklife at the
>> University of Pennsylvania."
>>

Speaking as the non-academic, non-performing member of the group [am I
the only one who falls into the category of "studious listener"] I am
reminded of a conversation I had with a local seller of used books.Back in the late 1960s I had the good fortune to buy two complete sets
of Burton's translation of the Arabian Nights. Both sets were numbered
American first subscription editions. In the years since I derived great
pleasure from reading and reading aloud from one of the sets keeping the
other unused [most of the pages were uncut]. Recently my new wife
decided that, what with CDs, LPs, books and my genealogy files, some
things needed to go.Took the unopened set of Burton off to the local dealer who promptly
disabused me of the idea that they had any value. He pointed out that we
no longer live in a society where literacy mattered. Folks just don't
worry about a finely turned phrase or take the time to read for the
sheer pleasure of expanding their horizons.Any wonder why most children spend hours in front of a TV when they live
in homes without books or anything beyond the "latest" music. [I have a
new sport, when I visit someone's home I look for books. It's amazing
how few homes have even one sitting in the living room.]In a world like this is it any wonder that a folklorist is reduced to
examining tags on a pair of Levis?

It's a funny thing: there's been a lot of attention paid to folklore and
folklorists in the last few years, what with the tremendous amount of
material being reissued, and there was a particular spike of interest when
Alan Lomax died. And subjects like urban legends remain popular. So what's
the response of the academy?Pfui. Looks like we'll have to go back to having the work done by talented
amateurs, folk song societies, and parsons on bicycles.Peace,
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]><<Sounds very discouraging.  What schools are left, besides North Carolina,
Indiana and Texas?>>Warren Wilson and Berea have undergraduate programs, at least. Does U. of
Kentucky still have a folklore program? What about Appalachian State?Peace,
Paul

Dear Balladeers,This discussion on the closure of the programme at Penn prompted me to look
at the most recent list of North American folklore programs which I had to
hand, just to see how things stand today. The list is from the 1992
American Folklore Society membership directory, and I thought it might
interest those who don't have it, just to see how things have changed since
then. Some of these programs are more autonomous than others, so the list
doesn't compare like with like, but  here goes. People who are closer to
the scene may know which programmes are still running strong -- could it be
that one or two others have been added since then? (I think most of these,
other than UCLA and Penn, are still going: certainly Newfoundland is, and
well worth visiting!)1. Folklore and Mythology Program, UCLA
2. Folklife Program, American Studies, George Washington University
3. Folklore Institute, Indiana University
4. Programs in Folk Studies, Western Kentucky University (Bowling Green, KY)
5. Center for Folklore and Cultural Studies, Ohio State University
6. Folklore and Ethnic Studies, University of Oregon
7. Dept. of Folklore and Folklife, University of Pennsylvania
8. Dept. of Anthropology, Texas A & M University
9. Folklore Program, Utah State University
10. Dept of Folklore, Memorial University of NewfoundlandI, for one, am sorry to see signs of a decline in the development of
academic folklore in North America. I don't think the discipline is any
more artificial than any other academic discipline -- I think the problem
is that folklore has a public image problem due to the lack of seriousness
accorded to its subject matter. And this despite the importance of that
subject matter for the realities of everyday life! It's true that many of
us have had to find an employment refuge in a field outside of folklore,
but I say long may the discipline flourish, and let's hope that some day
the academy will wake up to the importance of life beyond the 'triviality
barrier'.Or am I whistling in the dark ...Jeff Kallen
Centre for Language and Communication Studies (!)
Trinity College Dublin

Dear all:Weren't all academic discipline once new--as well as most
professions? (I think that languages were added to American curricula
only in the mid to late 19th century). I'm not sure this is an
argument against folklore, though I will agree that it has many
conceptual problems--starting with the name!Anne Dhu McLucas------------------
> Good People:
>
> I realize I will be throwing gasoline on a smouldering fire, or, to
change metaphors entirely, I will be howling bootless into the wind,
but I would like to point out that folklore, aka "folkloristics," is,
in fact, a contrived profession.  (Note that the site from which I
plucked the original message that fostered this thread is entitled
"Public Folklore" or "Publore," and the denizens refer to each other
as "publorians.")
>
> What happened, lo' these many years, is that those interested in
folklore sought to split it off from "mainstream" disciplines,
particularly English and anthropology.
>
> (My mentor, the great, the decent, the humane Wayland Hand,
vacillated between folklore as a subset of Germanic studies or
folklore as a discipline standing on its own.  How I wish I had
discussed this with him.
>
> (And I call upon Norm Cohen, another of Wayland's students to weigh
in here.)
>
> Folklore is a subset of literary studies when dealing with literate
societies, and of anthropology/culture when dealing with preliterate
or so-called "primitive" societies.  Long ago, there were those who
sought to inflate the importance of folklore to "stand-alone" status;
thus, Departments of/Programs in/Graduate Studies in Folklore.  The
post-graudate jobs, however, were not to be found in folklore, but in
English, Germanic Studies, Music, where- and whatever.  Hence the
rush to state and federal shelter tents -- including national parks
and preserves -- by beleagured graduates with folklore degrees but no
academic job offers.
>
> Certainly having a folklorist check the use of the tab on the right
rear pocket of Levi Strauss' overalls is useful when planning an
exhibition at Sam Houston State Park, Texas (or whatever it was
called).  But does this require a college degree in folklore?  And
does it finally matter so long as the historical truth is displayed?
>
> All that aside, inevitably, as Bob Waltz has pointed out, the
number of student applications would reflect the lack of real jobs.
After all, do we really need $50 K per annum folks to tell us "Levi
Strauss patented his jeans in 18--...?"
>
> I can regret the demise of the Penn program.  As I did, sort of, of
the UCLA program, of which I was once, long, long ago, a participant.But I can still acknowledge that Indiana and Texas alone can provide
all the doctorates needed for the job market, both academic and
public.  Given the market realities, who needs UCLA and/or Penn?  And
why should the taxpayers of California and the regents/trustees of
private university Penn pay for a folklore program?
>
> Personally, I am NOT (note the emphasis) disheartened at what I
have termed "The Dwindling."  Consider these points:
>
> 1) The folk music revival burbles along, below the radar of the
popular sales charts, but thriving nonetheless;
>
> 2) Folklore, like 16th C. heroic studies, or Yurok speech patterns
prior to the coming of the Spanish, cannot be said to be vital in the
contemporary world.  We would like to maintain an awareness, a
knowledge of such matters, but it can hardly be argued that the
fostering of such knowledge is essential to our lives.
> (And that may be why we on blalad-l so dote upon our specialized,
happily shared knowledge; we love its arcane nature.)
>
> 3) We on ballad-l, and our friends/colleagues on other list-servs
continue to do our thing, to sing or research, to LOVE folk song and
lore.  (I think it safe to say that John Garst needs no degree in
folklore to run Ella Speed or John Henry to ground -- no matter what
the academicians might whine.)
>
> And that, in my opinion, is enough.  Folklore lives, whether or not
Penn realizes it, whether or not it should be a separate department
with its own
> (ahem) scholarly discipline, whether or not UCLA screws my dear
Wayland Hand.
>
> Our job on ballad-l is to keep the great song/ballad corpus alive -
- to sing it, to study it, to squabble about it, but above all to
share it.  As our forebearers did.
>
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> Date: Thursday, January 8, 2004 6:04 pm
> Subject: Re: The Dwindling
>
> > On 1/8/04, Paul Garon wrote:
> >
> > >Any theories as to the cause of this? I would think the
electronic frontier
> > >would offer opportunities galore to folklorists and
anthropologists.
> >
> > There are only two ultimate causes: Nobody wants to learn, or
nobody
> > wants to teach. I have to suspect the former. What sort of a job
> > does a folklore degree get you?
> >
> > And how many people even still know that folklore studies *exist*
?
> >
> > If the situation is to be saved, we have to find a way to solve
> > that: Get the jobs out there, and remind people that the field
> > exists.
> >
> > --
> > Bob Waltz
> > [unmask]
> >
> > "The one thing we learn from history --
> >   is that no one ever learns from history."
> >
>
Anne Dhu McLucas, Ph.D.
Professor of Music
University of Oregon

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

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Oh Wise Ones:
  I am finishing my Master's in Music Technology, topping a Bachelor's
in Music Ed. I would love to enroll in a doctoral program in folklore at
Indiana University or elsewhere, but the thought of paying the mortgage
and buying my son new shoes once in a while scares me off. It's a vicous
cycle. The folklore professors retire becuase no one enrolls in their
classes, and as a result there are no classes in which to enroll. There
are few things I love more than researching folk music, but the
practicality of finding work may be the reason more people like me
aren't signing up for academic programs.
  Just my $.02.Beth Brooks

>
>Even if we don't solve the "folklore in academia" problem, we might be
>able to sell the Subject line to Stephen King as the title for a new novel.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

I can try to get some statistics on enrollment here, but hte fact is that, right now, there are few academic jobs in the humanties and social sciences.  If there are folklore jobs to be had at all, they're generally in the public sector.  Often, they involve contract work and are poorly paid.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Beth Brooks
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 8:19 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: The DwindlingOh Wise Ones:
  I am finishing my Master's in Music Technology, topping a Bachelor's
in Music Ed. I would love to enroll in a doctoral program in folklore at
Indiana University or elsewhere, but the thought of paying the mortgage
and buying my son new shoes once in a while scares me off. It's a vicous
cycle. The folklore professors retire becuase no one enrolls in their
classes, and as a result there are no classes in which to enroll. There
are few things I love more than researching folk music, but the
practicality of finding work may be the reason more people like me
aren't signing up for academic programs.
  Just my $.02.Beth Brooks

And by the way Publore is by and large the listserv for folklorists working
in the public sector for arts agencies, museums, festivals, as contract
workers. "Publorians," "Publicans," "Pubs," etcs are just little jokes much like if
those on this list used "Balladians" or "Balladheads" or some such among
ourselves. We're all folklorists by training and inclination. It seems ironic to me
that the university programs that train folklorists (and yes Western Kentucky
has an excellent one) are dwindling just as the public audience is expanding
due in part to or reflected by the success of O Brother, Songcatcher, Cold
Mountain and other indicators of a growing interest in traditional music.Mike Luster
Louisiana Folklife Festival
1800 Riverside Drive
Monroe, LA  71201[unmask]
www.LouisianaFolklifeFest.org
318-324-1665 voice or fax

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Paul:Writing as a member of the Academy -- though probably disdained as not academic enough since I am a tenured professor of (horrors!) journalism -- I would suggest that institutions of higher education did folklore no favors.  I would argue that those talented amateurs riding around on bicycles did pretty well, thank you.  What academician amassed the collectanea of Gavin Greig and the Reverend Duncan?  Or the Lomaxes?  Or J.F. Campbell?  Or Vance Randolph?  Or Zora Neale Hurston?  Or the WPA?  What a great heritage these men and women saved for us.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, January 8, 2004 11:15 pm
Subject: Re: The Dwindling> It's a funny thing: there's been a lot of attention paid to folklore and
> folklorists in the last few years, what with the tremendous amount of
> material being reissued, and there was a particular spike of interest when
> Alan Lomax died. And subjects like urban legends remain popular. So what's
> the response of the academy?
>
> Pfui. Looks like we'll have to go back to having the work done by talented
> amateurs, folk song societies, and parsons on bicycles.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

One has to wonder if this is just another fad similar to Columbia's
success a few years back when they reissued the complete Robert Johnson
recordings. How many of those sets now gather dust on some trend happy
individuals shelf? A few months back I was doing my happy dance when the
Bear Family reissue of the Blue Sky Boys arrived at the office and folks
though I had lost it [more than usual].Mike Luster wrote:>just as the public audience is expanding due in part to or reflected by the success of O Brother, Songcatcher, Cold Mountain and other indicators of a growing interest in traditional music.
>
>

I think there's another problem that's affecting the number of people who
get interested in folklore studies: a lack of charismatic people who get the
attention of potential students and draw them in. Most of the folks who
delighted and inspired generations of students are either gone (e.g.,
Goldstein) or retired (e.g., Green), and for the past decade or so there
seems to have been a reaction against charismatic and colorful characters.
It's become a more sober-seeming, less swashbuckling field in the public
mind, and while that may make it more respectable in the eyes of fellow
academes, it draws in fewer newcomers.Peace,
Paul

In a message dated 1/9/04 10:53:47 AM, [unmask] writes:>One has to wonder if this is just another fad similar to Columbia's
>success a few years back when they reissued the complete Robert Johnson
>recordings. How many of those sets now gather dust on some trend happy
>individuals shelf? A few months back I was doing my happy dance when the
>Bear Family reissue of the Blue Sky Boys arrived at the office and folks
>though I had lost it [more than usual].Well these things do go round but I'm always happy when they do. Dirty
Linen's current issue has an introductory piece on Francis James Child and the new
reissues of his work in both book and CD-ROM form. These too may eventually
gather dust but another Mighty Wind might blow them clean.Mike Luster

----- Original Message -----
From: edward cray <[unmask]><<Writing as a member of the Academy -- though probably disdained as not
academic enough since I am a tenured professor of (horrors!) journalism -- I
would suggest that institutions of higher education did folklore no favors.
I would argue that those talented amateurs riding around on bicycles did
pretty well, thank you.  What academician amassed the collectanea of Gavin
Greig and the Reverend Duncan?  Or the Lomaxes?  Or J.F. Campbell?  Or Vance
Randolph?  Or Zora Neale Hurston?  Or the WPA?  What a great heritage these
men and women saved for us.>>Oh, I'm not arguing that. And when I suggested that we would have to return
to relying on talented amateurs, folk song societies and parsons on
bicycles, I wasn't being facetious; indeed, with the academy seemingly
retiring from the field, it's vital that we keep supporting alternative
institutions such as the AFC, the Smithsonian, local societies, and of
course internet creations such as this listserv and the Ballad Index. It
looks like that's where the action'll be in the next generation.Peace,
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]><<One has to wonder if this is just another fad similar to Columbia's
success a few years back when they reissued the complete Robert Johnson
recordings. How many of those sets now gather dust on some trend happy
individuals shelf? >>A lot, I'm sure. But the 1 person in 100 who gets inspired by hearing the
set to go out and investigate where the music came from...well, that's a lot
of us, right? 99 out of 100 people who bought Kingston Trio records in 1960
went on to the Next Big Thing, and the old folk records languish in the
attic or get given to a thrift store. But that hundredth person is picking
clawhammer banjo in a string band someplace, or digging through old books in
search of ballads, or writing a dissertation on work song patterns.
Popular-culture attention to tradition enriches the popular culture (see Bob
Dylan or the Grateful Dead for examples of pop-culture figures whose work
has been deeply influenced by traditional music), but it also attracts new
enthusiasts, and some of them stick.Peace,
Paul

As a student of the younger generation I will add my two cents.   I considered a number of folklore programs very strongly but in the end chose none of them.  I have an undergraduate degree in Medieval Literature with a self-designed minor in Irish traditional music.  There were more job opportunities with a Medieval art or literature than in folklore.  I couldn't justify a graduate program that would almost certainly result in poor job prospects for the next 20 years.  That's what makes this situation so depressing...the problem is circular.  Not enough employment opportunities leads to few students enter folklore studies, leads to fewer programs available leads to even few employment opportunities.Boy, now I am depressed!Liz in NHClient Services
Image 4Displays.  Graphics. Solutions.
ph:603.644.0077
fax:603.644.5810-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Stamler [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 12:24 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: The DwindlingI think there's another problem that's affecting the number of people who
get interested in folklore studies: a lack of charismatic people who get the
attention of potential students and draw them in. Most of the folks who
delighted and inspired generations of students are either gone (e.g.,
Goldstein) or retired (e.g., Green), and for the past decade or so there
seems to have been a reaction against charismatic and colorful characters.
It's become a more sober-seeming, less swashbuckling field in the public
mind, and while that may make it more respectable in the eyes of fellow
academes, it draws in fewer newcomers.Peace,
Paul

On 1/9/04, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>
><<Writing as a member of the Academy -- though probably disdained as not
>academic enough since I am a tenured professor of (horrors!) journalism -- I
>would suggest that institutions of higher education did folklore no favors.
>I would argue that those talented amateurs riding around on bicycles did
>pretty well, thank you.  What academician amassed the collectanea of Gavin
>Greig and the Reverend Duncan?  Or the Lomaxes?  Or J.F. Campbell?  Or Vance
>Randolph?  Or Zora Neale Hurston?  Or the WPA?  What a great heritage these
>men and women saved for us.>>
>
>Oh, I'm not arguing that. And when I suggested that we would have to return
>to relying on talented amateurs, folk song societies and parsons on
>bicycles, I wasn't being facetious; indeed, with the academy seemingly
>retiring from the field, it's vital that we keep supporting alternative
>institutions such as the AFC, the Smithsonian, local societies, and of
>course internet creations such as this listserv and the Ballad Index. It
>looks like that's where the action'll be in the next generation.It's more complicated than that, though. Amateurs can collect; for the
most part, they *have* collected.But where do the collections go?I think of this myself: Since starting the Ballad Index, my
library has gone from a casual repository with a few high-quality
books (Child, Randolph, Eddy) to probably one of the dozen or so
best in Minnesota. That's not to say that it's anything close to
what it should be -- but nobody local with whom I have contact has
better. (That, incidentally, owes a lot do Dolores Nichols and her
eBay lists, though I've also been picking and choosing estate
collections for some years.) If I died tomorrow, it would simply
be dispersed -- probably sold piecemeal for about a fifth of
its real value. Why? Because I have no one younger to whom to
leave it. The Index itself is dependent on David Engle's presence
at Fresno.We need archives as well as collectors and maintainers. We don't
need departments of folklore, but we do need an "in" with the
universities. The dissolution of the programs worries me about
the future of those archives.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

>On 1/8/04, Paul Garon wrote:
>
>>Any theories as to the cause of this? I would think the electronic frontier
>>would offer opportunities galore to folklorists and anthropologists.
>
>There are only two ultimate causes: Nobody wants to learn, or nobody
>wants to teach. I have to suspect the former. What sort of a job
>does a folklore degree get you?
>
>And how many people even still know that folklore studies *exist*?
>
>If the situation is to be saved, we have to find a way to solve
>that: Get the jobs out there, and remind people that the field
>exists.
>
>--
>Bob WaltzWhat fraction of people with degrees in folklore wind up in academic
departments other than folklore (English, anthropology, education,
journalism, etc.) or in government jobs.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Paul:I want royalties.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, January 9, 2004 6:25 am
Subject: Re: The Dwindling> >
> >Even if we don't solve the "folklore in academia" problem, we might be
> >able to sell the Subject line to Stephen King as the title for a new novel.
>
>
> Paul Garon
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

>What fraction of people with degrees in folklore wind up in academic
>departments other than folklore (English, anthropology, education,
j>ournalism, etc.) or in government jobs.Well, I'm teaching in a department of urban and Pupublic affairs but couldn't
the same for people who study English, history, or any number of other
university subjects? That those who teach do so in their subject area? I can tell
you from personal experience there are plenty of trained folklorists working in
a variety of applications--publishing, broadcasting, journalism, consulting,
museums, k-12 education, private nonprofits, etc.mike luster

At 9:30 PM -0800 1/8/04, edward cray wrote:
...
>I think it safe to say that John Garst needs no degree in folklore
>to run Ella Speed or John Henry to ground....Ed,You blew my cover!It's true.  I've never had a course in folklore, nor have I ever read
a folklore textbook from cover to cover.  I am simply interested in
some of the things that fall under that heading.John

At 8:46 AM -0800 1/9/04, edward cray wrote:>...I would argue that those talented amateurs riding around on
>bicycles did pretty well, thank you.  What academician amassed the
>collectanea of Gavin Greig and the Reverend Duncan?  Or the Lomaxes?
>Or J.F. Campbell?  Or Vance Randolph?  Or Zora Neale Hurston?  Or
>the WPA?  What a great heritage these men and women saved for us.Do academic folklorists put much emphasis on collecting material
nowadays?  Or is it mostly on analysis and theory?
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<We need archives as well as collectors and maintainers. We don't
need departments of folklore, but we do need an "in" with the
universities. The dissolution of the programs worries me about
the future of those archives.>>Those archives don't have to be at universities, though. Think of the
excellent archive of popular music at the New York Public Library.And, by the way, if you're looking for a place to leave your books, consider
the Sing Out! Resouce Center in Pennsylvania. That's who's getting my LPs
and CDs.Peace,
Paul

Mike:I must say that I have never heard/read anyone refer to the subscribers of this list as "balladians" or "balladheads."  Anyone who does must go and sit in the corner until told he or she can return to civilized society.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Luster <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, January 9, 2004 7:19 am
Subject: Re: The Dwindling> And by the way Publore is by and large the listserv for folklorists working
> in the public sector for arts agencies, museums, festivals, as contract
> workers. "Publorians," "Publicans," "Pubs," etcs are just little jokes
> much like if
> those on this list used "Balladians" or "Balladheads" or some such among
> ourselves. We're all folklorists by training and inclination. It seems
> ironic to me
> that the university programs that train folklorists (and yes Western Kentucky
> has an excellent one) are dwindling just as the public audience is expanding
> due in part to or reflected by the success of O Brother, Songcatcher, Cold
> Mountain and other indicators of a growing interest in traditional music.
>
> Mike Luster
> Louisiana Folklife Festival
> 1800 Riverside Drive
> Monroe, LA  71201
>
> [unmask]
> www.LouisianaFolklifeFest.org
> 318-324-1665 voice or fax
>

Robert,Have you considered creating a bequest in your will so that your wonderful
collection will remain intact and useful for future scholars? The Cleveland
(Ohio)Public Library has a wonderful archive of folk music which was left to
them by an early trustee, John G. White. It is available to the public and
we have availed ourselves of their generosity. You could do something like
that for your public library if your university isn't interested in the
books.Bev and JerryIt is better to shine than to reflect
www.bevjerry.com----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: The Dwindling> On 1/9/04, Paul Stamler wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> >
> ><<Writing as a member of the Academy -- though probably disdained as not
> >academic enough since I am a tenured professor of (horrors!)
journalism -- I
> >would suggest that institutions of higher education did folklore no
favors.
> >I would argue that those talented amateurs riding around on bicycles did
> >pretty well, thank you.  What academician amassed the collectanea of
Gavin
> >Greig and the Reverend Duncan?  Or the Lomaxes?  Or J.F. Campbell?  Or
Vance
> >Randolph?  Or Zora Neale Hurston?  Or the WPA?  What a great heritage
these
> >men and women saved for us.>>
> >
> >Oh, I'm not arguing that. And when I suggested that we would have to
return
> >to relying on talented amateurs, folk song societies and parsons on
> >bicycles, I wasn't being facetious; indeed, with the academy seemingly
> >retiring from the field, it's vital that we keep supporting alternative
> >institutions such as the AFC, the Smithsonian, local societies, and of
> >course internet creations such as this listserv and the Ballad Index. It
> >looks like that's where the action'll be in the next generation.
>
> It's more complicated than that, though. Amateurs can collect; for the
> most part, they *have* collected.
>
> But where do the collections go?
>
> I think of this myself: Since starting the Ballad Index, my
> library has gone from a casual repository with a few high-quality
> books (Child, Randolph, Eddy) to probably one of the dozen or so
> best in Minnesota. That's not to say that it's anything close to
> what it should be -- but nobody local with whom I have contact has
> better. (That, incidentally, owes a lot do Dolores Nichols and her
> eBay lists, though I've also been picking and choosing estate
> collections for some years.) If I died tomorrow, it would simply
> be dispersed -- probably sold piecemeal for about a fifth of
> its real value. Why? Because I have no one younger to whom to
> leave it. The Index itself is dependent on David Engle's presence
> at Fresno.
>
> We need archives as well as collectors and maintainers. We don't
> need departments of folklore, but we do need an "in" with the
> universities. The dissolution of the programs worries me about
> the future of those archives.
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

John Garst said:> What fraction of people with degrees in folklore wind up in academic
> departments other than folklore (English, anthropology, education,
> journalism, etc.) or in government jobs.Well, not me, at least. But then I did the academic bit of folk in my 50's and not at the beginning, so I already had an established career in something completely different. And I haven't given up the day job.
I have no idea how unusual that is.
Cheers
Simon

This kind of situation is handled very well in the manner of the blues tradition. The Beasley Books Publishing Co. will collect the royalties, thank you, but as the originator and the performer, you will get a shiny silver quarter, NOW, not some empty promise for the future. Hell, we'll even buy you a drink!Paul Garon---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:         Fri, 9 Jan 2004 12:49:01 -0800>Paul:
>
>I want royalties.
>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
>Date: Friday, January 9, 2004 6:25 am
>Subject: Re: The Dwindling
>
>> >
>> >Even if we don't solve the "folklore in academia" problem, we might be
>> >able to sell the Subject line to Stephen King as the title for a new novel.
>>
>>
>> Paul Garon
>>
>>
>> Paul and Beth Garon
>> Beasley Books (ABAA)
>> 1533 W. Oakdale
>> Chicago, IL 60657
>> (773) 472-4528
>> (773) 472-7857 FAX
>> [unmask]
>>
>--
Paul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books
1533 W Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
773 472 4528
773 472 7857 (fax)
--

Yes, it is tricky, and it's up to us as collectors to make sure our collections meet the fate we want them to. Many collectors leave their collections to "prestigious institutions" without realizing that their treasures may sit uncataloged in cardboard boxes for decades. It's the collectors reponsibility to find an institution or individual who will give the collection proper care.Paul Garon
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:         Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:11:13 -0600>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>
><<We need archives as well as collectors and maintainers. We don't
>need departments of folklore, but we do need an "in" with the
>universities. The dissolution of the programs worries me about
>the future of those archives.>>
>
>Those archives don't have to be at universities, though. Think of the
>excellent archive of popular music at the New York Public Library.
>
>And, by the way, if you're looking for a place to leave your books, consider
>the Sing Out! Resouce Center in Pennsylvania. That's who's getting my LPs
>and CDs.
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>--
Paul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books
1533 W Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
773 472 4528
773 472 7857 (fax)
--

Let me say that one such collection, the Mary Celestia Parler Collection at
the University of Arkansas, has just had a massive effort completed to fully
catalogue and dupicate the materials. The work was done by young folklorist
Rachel Reynolds and should yield access to one of the great American collections
of field recordings. And let me point out that Macy C. Parler was a life-long
academic married late in life to one the greatest private collectors, a guy
named Randolph.Mike Luster

Mike:Do let us know when the Parler collection becomes available.  Will it be online as is the Max Hunter collection at SW Missouri State?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Luster <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, January 9, 2004 2:02 pm
Subject: Re: The Dwindling> Let me say that one such collection, the Mary Celestia Parler Collection at
> the University of Arkansas, has just had a massive effort completed to fully
> catalogue and dupicate the materials. The work was done by young folklorist
> Rachel Reynolds and should yield access to one of the great American
> collectionsof field recordings. And let me point out that Macy C. Parler
> was a life-long
> academic married late in life to one the greatest private collectors, a guy
> named Randolph.
>
> Mike Luster
>

That is the intention. There are some exciting things in the works there.Mike Luster

>On 1/9/04, Paul Stamler wrote:
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>>
>><<Writing as a member of the Academy -- though probably disdained as not
>>academic enough since I am a tenured professor of (horrors!) journalism -- I
>>would suggest that institutions of higher education did folklore no favors.
>>I would argue that those talented amateurs riding around on bicycles did
>>pretty well, thank you.  What academician amassed the collectanea of Gavin
>>Greig and the Reverend Duncan?  Or the Lomaxes?  Or J.F. Campbell?  Or Vance
>>Randolph?  Or Zora Neale Hurston?  Or the WPA?  What a great heritage these
>>men and women saved for us.>>
>>
>>Oh, I'm not arguing that. And when I suggested that we would have to return
>>to relying on talented amateurs, folk song societies and parsons on
>>bicycles, I wasn't being facetious; indeed, with the academy seemingly
>>retiring from the field, it's vital that we keep supporting alternative
>>institutions such as the AFC, the Smithsonian, local societies, and of
>>course internet creations such as this listserv and the Ballad Index. It
>>looks like that's where the action'll be in the next generation.
>
>It's more complicated than that, though. Amateurs can collect; for the
>most part, they *have* collected.
>
>But where do the collections go?
>
>I think of this myself: Since starting the Ballad Index, my
>library has gone from a casual repository with a few high-quality
>books (Child, Randolph, Eddy) to probably one of the dozen or so
>best in Minnesota. That's not to say that it's anything close to
>what it should be -- but nobody local with whom I have contact has
>better. (That, incidentally, owes a lot do Dolores Nichols and her
>eBay lists, though I've also been picking and choosing estate
>collections for some years.) If I died tomorrow, it would simply
>be dispersed -- probably sold piecemeal for about a fifth of
>its real value. Why? Because I have no one younger to whom to
>leave it. The Index itself is dependent on David Engle's presence
>at Fresno.
>
>We need archives as well as collectors and maintainers. We don't
>need departments of folklore, but we do need an "in" with the
>universities. The dissolution of the programs worries me about
>the future of those archives.That is indeed a great concern: especially since more than one
collection at a university has been disbursed when an administrator
saw no more use in it...>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

In some instances I would suggest a local or regional historical
society. While I have never given much consideration to the status of my
music oriented materials after my departure I have given very specific
instructions as to the division of my genealogical files. In addition I
have already spoken to the folks at each of those bodies to insure their
interest. [All this and I would like to think I'm good for at least
another 30 years.]A smaller local group may not be the ideal choice but it's a bit like
the archaeologist who thinks it better for a site to be paved over now
so that it can be excavated later.Personal Disclaimer: I helped to found a non-profit local history
organization in PA some 20 years ago and served, in one capacity or
another, on the board ever since. As such I do have a personal bias,David G. Engle wrote:>> On 1/9/04, Paul Stamler wrote:
>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>>>
>>> <<Writing as a member of the Academy -- though probably disdained as not
>>> academic enough since I am a tenured professor of (horrors!)
>>> journalism -- I
>>> would suggest that institutions of higher education did folklore no
>>> favors.
>>> I would argue that those talented amateurs riding around on bicycles did
>>> pretty well, thank you.  What academician amassed the collectanea of
>>> Gavin
>>> Greig and the Reverend Duncan?  Or the Lomaxes?  Or J.F. Campbell?
>>> Or Vance
>>> Randolph?  Or Zora Neale Hurston?  Or the WPA?  What a great
>>> heritage these
>>> men and women saved for us.>>
>>>
>>> Oh, I'm not arguing that. And when I suggested that we would have to
>>> return
>>> to relying on talented amateurs, folk song societies and parsons on
>>> bicycles, I wasn't being facetious; indeed, with the academy seemingly
>>> retiring from the field, it's vital that we keep supporting alternative
>>> institutions such as the AFC, the Smithsonian, local societies, and of
>>> course internet creations such as this listserv and the Ballad Index. It
>>> looks like that's where the action'll be in the next generation.
>>
>>
>> It's more complicated than that, though. Amateurs can collect; for the
>> most part, they *have* collected.
>>
>> But where do the collections go?
>>
>> I think of this myself: Since starting the Ballad Index, my
>> library has gone from a casual repository with a few high-quality
>> books (Child, Randolph, Eddy) to probably one of the dozen or so
>> best in Minnesota. That's not to say that it's anything close to
>> what it should be -- but nobody local with whom I have contact has
>> better. (That, incidentally, owes a lot do Dolores Nichols and her
>> eBay lists, though I've also been picking and choosing estate
>> collections for some years.) If I died tomorrow, it would simply
>> be dispersed -- probably sold piecemeal for about a fifth of
>> its real value. Why? Because I have no one younger to whom to
>> leave it. The Index itself is dependent on David Engle's presence
>> at Fresno.
>>
>> We need archives as well as collectors and maintainers. We don't
>> need departments of folklore, but we do need an "in" with the
>> universities. The dissolution of the programs worries me about
>> the future of those archives.
>
>
> That is indeed a great concern: especially since more than one
> collection at a university has been disbursed when an administrator
> saw no more use in it...
>
>
>> --
>> Bob Waltz
>> [unmask]
>>
>> "The one thing we learn from history --
>>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>
>
>
> --
>
> David G. Engle
>
> email:  [unmask]
> web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
>        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang
>
>         The Traditional Ballad Index:
>         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>
> ---
>

On 1/9/04, David G. Engle wrote:[ ... ]>>We need archives as well as collectors and maintainers. We don't
>>need departments of folklore, but we do need an "in" with the
>>universities. The dissolution of the programs worries me about
>>the future of those archives.
>
>That is indeed a great concern: especially since more than one
>collection at a university has been disbursed when an administrator
>saw no more use in it...That, in fact, was where some of my books were originally kept.
They still have the university marks -- as well as, in some
cases, the names of later owners.A collection without someone who wants to keep it is simply
not safe.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Hi,
Just finishing off adding Motherwell's Minstrelsy into my indexes and
annoyingly can't identify a fragment in the appendix p xxiii. It sounds
familiar but I'm probably confusing it with The Overgate.
Anyway this is how it goesThe farmer's daughter gade to the market
Some white fish for to buy.
The young squire followed after her
As fast as he could hie,
Ricadoo, tunaway, ricadoo a doo a day
Raddle ricadoo tunaway.There is a tune but I don't know how to post that.
Any ideas gratefully accepted
SteveG

>Date:    Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:30:05 -0800
>From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
>Subject: Re: The Dwindling
>
>Good People:
>
>I realize I will be throwing gasoline on a smouldering fire, or, to change
>metaphors entirely, I will be howling bootless into the wind, but I would
>like to point out that folklore, aka "folkloristics," is, in fact, a
>contrived profession.  (Note that the site from which I plucked the
>original message that fostered this thread is entitled "Public Folklore"
>or "Publore," and the denizens refer to each other as "publorians.")
>
>What happened, lo' these many years, is that those interested in folklore
>sought to split it off from "mainstream" disciplines, particularly English
>and anthropology.I would just as soon see folklore studies isolated from the controversies
of "English."  Does "English" mean English literature, or the culture of
English-speaking peoples?  English departments are embracing both, causing
much clucking over the idea that "The Complete Works of Madonna" is a
legitimate subject of investigation -- which of course it is -- but those
who question its value as "literature" are equally correct.  The ambiguity
is complicated by the strategy of teachers to assign writing projects on
ephemeral popular culture in order to interest students in writing.Ballads, having demonstrated longevity, to say nothing of their very close
kinship to the oral epics which form the foundation of Western literature,
get some conservative respect-- so long as they're studied in written form
and not from the mouths of untutored singers.>Personally, I am NOT (note the emphasis) disheartened at what I have
>termed "The Dwindling."  Consider these points:
>
>1) The folk music revival burbles along, below the radar of the popular
>sales charts, but thriving nonetheless;The folk music revival burbles along with much assistance from public
subsidy, which benefits from the status of folklore as an independent
discipline.  Public sector folklore and academic folklore are quite
different things, but they depend on each other to exist.  We might hope
that traditional culture does not need artificial support, but like other
endangered species, its natural habitat is deeply stressed.>2) Folklore, like 16th C. heroic studies, or Yurok speech patterns prior
>to the coming of the Spanish, cannot be said to be vital in the
>contemporary world.Folk culture is what stands in opposition to the disintegration of culture
through discontinuity between generations, the marketing and promotion of
novelty, and the standardization of Everything.  Nothing could be more
vital than to understand and document both what's lost and what persists.
Should the infrastructure we depend on break down, how would we grow our
food having lost the lore of farming?  How would we fill the silence in our
minds without the technology of popular entertainment, and not go mad from
boredom?  I never get tired of "Down in the Willow Garden," do you?  But
how many times can you listen to "Psychokiller" without moving on to
something else?  And if this is of concern here in the studio of most of
the world's popular cultural products (and development policies, and
fertilizer-dependent seeds), how much more so in those parts of the world
whose folk knowledge is lost beyond recovery, having no archives of
documentation, no popular education and no sponsored promotion to spark any
kind of cultural "revival"?As we observe the rising tower of Babel known as "globalization," these are
important questions.Regards,Toby Koosman
Knoxville, Tennessee

Hi again,
The verse is very similar to the first verse of The Maskin Rung but this
is not a humorous ballad and the one in Motherwell is described so.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>Hi,
>Just finishing off adding Motherwell's Minstrelsy into my indexes and
>annoyingly can't identify a fragment in the appendix p xxiii. It sounds
>familiar but I'm probably confusing it with The Overgate.
>Anyway this is how it goes
>
>The farmer's daughter gade to the market
>Some white fish for to buy.
>The young squire followed after her
>As fast as he could hie,
>Ricadoo, tunaway, ricadoo a doo a day
>Raddle ricadoo tunaway.
>
>There is a tune but I don't know how to post that.
>Any ideas gratefully accepted
>SteveGabc would be fine, I think.--
john garst    [unmask]

Thanks,John,
I should have known.
I thought it looked familiar. I can remember the likes of Isobel
Sutherland and Lizzie Higgins singing it at folk clubs now.
Steve.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Someone sent me a flier to the effect that I was invited to a Readin' and
Signin' of a book called _Ramblin' Man_.I guess I'd like a signed copy and a square of cheese (if that goes with
it) but even if I started inlining today, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make
it to Los Angeles by February 21, 2004.  Or probably 2005, either.Anyone know how I can get this otherwisely?-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:42:12 -0800, Norm Cohen wrote:>Sounds very discouraging.  What schools are left, besides North Carolina,
>Indiana and Texas?My sad but strong impression of North Carolina & the entire Triangle area
is that there's no interest in the sung song whatever.  Vast as the
recorded holdings at the university are, they are uncataloged and
difficult to access.  No open stacks.  The room is sparsely visited and
only has a few primitive listening devices.  The whole Triangle area seems
concerned with instrumental forms.  These are superb, public and extensive
but no balladry.There's a single small weekly ballad gettogether.  It seems excellent but
I ain't been there yet - I keep visiting Raleigh at the wrong end of the
week.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Abby:I imagine your local book store will have a copy.  If not, the book can be ordered from Baker and Taylor or Ingram, the two major book distributors.  Or you can undercut the independent bookseller and go to amazon.com and get it at discount.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Abby Sale <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, January 11, 2004 10:42 am
Subject: Ramblin' Man> Someone sent me a flier to the effect that I was invited to a Readin' and
> Signin' of a book called _Ramblin' Man_.
>
> I guess I'd like a signed copy and a square of cheese (if that goes with
> it) but even if I started inlining today, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make
> it to Los Angeles by February 21, 2004.  Or probably 2005, either.
>
> Anyone know how I can get this otherwisely?
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                        Boycott South Carolina!
>        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml
>

I've contactacted the publisher to see what kind of dicount CAMSCO can
get. No answer as yet.dick greenhausAbby Sale wrote:>Someone sent me a flier to the effect that I was invited to a Readin' and
>Signin' of a book called _Ramblin' Man_.
>
>I guess I'd like a signed copy and a square of cheese (if that goes with
>it) but even if I started inlining today, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't make
>it to Los Angeles by February 21, 2004.  Or probably 2005, either.
>
>Anyone know how I can get this otherwisely?
>
>
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                        Boycott South Carolina!
>        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml
>
>
>

At 03:11 PM 1/10/2004 -0500, Toby Koosman wrote:
>As we observe the rising tower of Babel known as "globalization," these are
>important questions.
>
>Regards,
>
>Toby Koosman
>Knoxville, TennesseeHear, hear.-- Bill McCarthy
(who grew up in Knoxville, Tennessee)

When I was young, at Bennington in the quiet fifties, there was a pair of
actual travelling minstrels, dressed in fairytale costumes, who came by
every couple of years and stayed with us in my parents' home.  Their names
were Seraffyn and Cherabim (sp?), and one of them played the first lute I
had ever seen.  I used to assume they walked the world, though this was
probably a naive supposition.  Your mention of Serrafyn Mork, or Morken,
reminded me of these two romantic adventurers, who sang ballads well into
the night, and charmed my soul powerfully.  I wonder if this was the same
Seraffyn.  Does anyone recall the pair I mention, or know if Seraffyn Mork
ever travelled or played with another artist with the odd pseudonym of
Cherabim?Sadie DamascusAt 1/3/2004, you wrote:
>Clifford-
>
>What a great project! As I came up with thoughts, however, my family
>pointed out that my taste might be too gory for delicate children's ears.
>F'rinstance I notice no one's suggested Jean Redpath as a source, yet her
>"Clerk Saunders" is one of my favorites. Gory, but magnificent. Another of
>my original learning sources- perhaps where I first, at age 16 or so,
>learned what a Child ballad was, is an obscure and probably unobtainable
>record by a man named Shep Ginandes. His "Matty Groves" and "Bolakins
>(Lamkin)" are wonderful- American sources all and quite good. Another
>record you may never find is Serrafyn Mork, singing "Little Sir William".
>Oh, and don't forget "Cordelia's Dad"- they do a super version of one of
>the incest ballads collected in New York, to mention only one. Maybe some
>of us who have these weird obscure things could copy and send them to you?
>
>Good luck on the project- I'll bet there are lots more suggestions coming.
>We will look forward to hearing more on it as it progresses.
>
>Mary Stafford
>Allston, MA

I remember them, too, from my fifties days at Columbia and in the Village.
I think the spelling, though, was Seraphim and Cherubim.  They were still
around in the early days of the Great Folk Scare of the 60's, IIRC.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sadie Damascus" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 8:53 PM
Subject: Re: Ballad Recordings> When I was young, at Bennington in the quiet fifties, there was a pair of
> actual travelling minstrels, dressed in fairytale costumes, who came by
> every couple of years and stayed with us in my parents' home.  Their names
> were Seraffyn and Cherabim (sp?), and one of them played the first lute I
> had ever seen.  I used to assume they walked the world, though this was
> probably a naive supposition.  Your mention of Serrafyn Mork, or Morken,
> reminded me of these two romantic adventurers, who sang ballads well into
> the night, and charmed my soul powerfully.  I wonder if this was the same
> Seraffyn.  Does anyone recall the pair I mention, or know if Seraffyn Mork
> ever travelled or played with another artist with the odd pseudonym of
> Cherabim?
>
> Sadie Damascus
>
> At 1/3/2004, you wrote:
> >Clifford-
> >
> >What a great project! As I came up with thoughts, however, my family
> >pointed out that my taste might be too gory for delicate children's ears.
> >F'rinstance I notice no one's suggested Jean Redpath as a source, yet her
> >"Clerk Saunders" is one of my favorites. Gory, but magnificent. Another
of
> >my original learning sources- perhaps where I first, at age 16 or so,
> >learned what a Child ballad was, is an obscure and probably unobtainable
> >record by a man named Shep Ginandes. His "Matty Groves" and "Bolakins
> >(Lamkin)" are wonderful- American sources all and quite good. Another
> >record you may never find is Serrafyn Mork, singing "Little Sir William".
> >Oh, and don't forget "Cordelia's Dad"- they do a super version of one of
> >the incest ballads collected in New York, to mention only one. Maybe some
> >of us who have these weird obscure things could copy and send them to
you?
> >
> >Good luck on the project- I'll bet there are lots more suggestions
coming.
> >We will look forward to hearing more on it as it progresses.
> >
> >Mary Stafford
> >Allston, MA

Hi!        Here I am again! You can't keep me away! :-)
        Hope that you find something of interest here.        SONGSTERS        2372026273 - chas. k. harris Popular Songster, 1900?, $4.99 (ends
Jan-15-04 20:00:12 PST)        2217121941 - Merchant's Gargling Oil Songster, 1887, $5  (ends
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edition, 0.99 GBP (ends Jan-15-04 12:15:18 PST)        3579247694 - The Book of Navy Songs, 1943, $4 (ends Jan-15-04
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1921, $9.99 (ends Jan-15-04 19:30:49 PST)        3579340947 - One Hundred English Folksongs by Sharp, 1975 edition,
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1979, $9.75 (ends Jan-16-04 18:45:33 PST)        3578608255 - London Bridge and other Old Singing Games by
Thornhill, 1911, 0.80 GBP (ends Jan-17-04 09:21:23 PST)        3578740696 - Ancient Scots Ballads with The Traditional Airs to
Which They Were Want to be Sung by Eyre-Todd, 40 GBP (ends Jan-17-04
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(ends Jan-18-04 15:58:12 PST)        3579211947 - American Folksongs of Protest by Greenway, 1960,
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Myrus, 1966, $6.99 (ends Jan-19-04 18:15:51 PST)        MISCELLANEOUS        2586910775 - UNCLE DAVE MACON AT HOME, LP, recorded 1950, issued
1970, Tennessee Folklore Society, $15.50 (ends Jan-14-04 17:46:32 PST)        2587538918 - ABOARD THE CUTTY SARK by Hugill, LP, 1979, $9.99
(ends Jan-15-04 16:39:10 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

----- Original Message -----
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]><<        2586910775 - UNCLE DAVE MACON AT HOME, LP, recorded 1950, issued
1970, Tennessee Folklore Society, $15.50 (ends Jan-14-04 17:46:32 PST)>>Y'all should know that this was reissued on CD last year. This is irrelevant
if you're after the LP as a collector; however, if you just want to hear the
music, the CD will undoubtedly be cheaper than the final price of the LP.Peace,
Paul

Hi, another request.
The Worcester Garland is cited as an ancestor to the scarce ballad 'The
Brisk Young Lively Lad / The London or Dublin Heiress. The only oral
versions I know of were found in S.England, Surrey (JFSS 1900)& Sussex
(Copper family), & N.E. Scotland (Greig-Duncan 3 versions). These are all
descendants of the 17th century ballad, The Valiant Virgin, Rox 7 546.Anyone know where I can reasonably quickly access a copy of The Worcester
Garland? It could be just an 18th century straight reprint of The Valiant
Virgin in which case I don't need it.Thanks, SteveG

> 3578833413 - Poetry and Jacobite Politics in Eighteenth-Century
> Britain and Ireland by Pittock, 1994, 55 GBP55 quid for a 10-year-old book?> 2371812826 - Kerr's Cornkisters (Bothy Ballads), 4.99 GBPStill in print, for not much more money.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---