Norm et al:I am partial to Finale Notepad.  It is simple to use, produces great looking leadsheets, and it is free.  I do not have the website address with me at my university office, but it should pop up on Google easily enough.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:04 am
Subject: Music writing program> Friends:
> I'm sure this was discussed some time ago, but could someone refresh me on
> what are convenient  pc programs for writing/composing music?
> Thanks,
> Norm Cohen
>

On 12/10/03, Norm Cohen wrote:>Friends:
>I'm sure this was discussed some time ago, but could someone refresh me on
>what are convenient  pc programs for writing/composing music?The answer to this really depends on what you need the program
to do. Do you require it to write tablature as well as
standard notation? Do you ever use funny notations?Also, how do you want it to play back? Via a MIDI device, or
just using the internal speaker?If you want to do something high-end, then the answer is
unquestionably Finale, from Coda Systems. It's the only
program that does all the things I need (notably oddball
tablature formats). If you *don't* need such things -- well,
I'll let others recommend, in that case, since I've been
forced to use Finale because of all the odd formats.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I use Finale a great deal, and am putting Finale notation in my upcoming "Pretty Polly" website, but Sibelius seems to be more universally accepted now, especially in universities.Beth Brooks>>> [unmask] 12/10/03 14:47 PM >>>
Norm et al:I am partial to Finale Notepad.  It is simple to use, produces great looking leadsheets, and it is free.  I do not have the website address with me at my university office, but it should pop up on Google easily enough.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 10:04 am
Subject: Music writing program> Friends:
> I'm sure this was discussed some time ago, but could someone refresh me on
> what are convenient  pc programs for writing/composing music?
> Thanks,
> Norm Cohen
>

I agree with Steve that Child's reference is much too long to repeat here
but, if all you need is the reference from his notes to #173:Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe, in his preface to A, Ballad Book, 1824, p.18,
[ A Ballad Book. By Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe, Esq. 1823. Reprinted with
Notes and Ballads from unpublished MSS of Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe, Esq.,
and Sir Walter Scott, Bart.  Edited by the late David Laing. Edinburgh and
London, 1880] observes: "It is singular that during the reign of the Czar
Peter, one of his empress's attendants, a Miss Hamilton, was executed for
the murder of a natural child ...." Sharpe afterwards communicated the
details of the story [footnote: In an extract from Gordon's History of Peter
the Great, Aberdeen, 1755, II, 308f] to Scott ... Minstrelsy, 1833, III,
296, note [Walter Scott, Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border. Edinburgh, 1833.
4 vols].  But Sharpe became convinced "that the Russian tragedy must be the
original" (note in Laing's edition of the Ballad Book, 1880, p.129); ....
The published accounts of the affair of the Russian Mary Hamilton differ to
much the same degree as some versions of the Scottish ballad.  The subject
has fortunately been reviewed in a recent article founded on original and
authentic documents [footnote: 'Maid-of-Honor Hamilton,' by M.I. Semefsky,
in Slovo i Dyelo (Word and Deed), 1885, St Petersburg, 3d edition, p187
...].

Bob:
This is primarily for my son, who wants to write music for his chamber
group; they don't need tablature, just standard notation.  It would be
helpful if it could convert from one clef to another.  He would play it back
only through internal speakers.
Norm>
> The answer to this really depends on what you need the program
> to do. Do you require it to write tablature as well as
> standard notation? Do you ever use funny notations?
>
> Also, how do you want it to play back? Via a MIDI device, or
> just using the internal speaker?
>
> If you want to do something high-end, then the answer is
> unquestionably Finale, from Coda Systems. It's the only
> program that does all the things I need (notably oddball
> tablature formats). If you *don't* need such things -- well,
> I'll let others recommend, in that case, since I've been
> forced to use Finale because of all the odd formats.
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

On 12/10/03, Norm Cohen wrote:>Bob:
>This is primarily for my son, who wants to write music for his chamber
>group; they don't need tablature, just standard notation.  It would be
>helpful if it could convert from one clef to another.  He would play it back
>only through internal speakers.
>NormThen you don't need full-blown Finale, I don't think (though it
*does* handle alto and tenor clefs and all those crazy things).
So listen to the other people and buy something cheaper -- and
easier to use. (Finale has a user interface that I think was
designed by the people who write VCR manuals.)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Melody Assistant is cheap (shareware at $15 for the license) and seems
to work well and is pretty easy to learn, though I haven't tried to do
anything sophisticated with it (it has plenty of bells and whistles
available, though). It's available on-line at
http://www.myriad-online.com/enindex.htm .~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, ArizonaNorm Cohen wrote:
I'm sure this was discussed some time ago, but could someone refresh me
on what are convenient pc programs for writing/composing music?
and
This is primarily for my son, who wants to write music for his chamber
group; they don't need tablature, just standard notation.  It would be
helpful if it could convert from one clef to another.  He would play it
back only through internal speakers.

Thanks to all for suggestions; I guess we'll try the free ones first.
Norm

Norman,As you may have noticed the majority of responses suggest either Finale
(full version) or Finale Notepad (limited freebie).  See the products athttp://www.finalemusic.com/  You can download Notepad 2003 from here.We use full Finale for all of the music work here at Heritage Muse.  I also
use it for performance arranging for the choral group I run.Notepad is probably too basic for what your son wants. However, there is an
in-between alternative....check out Finale Allegro which has many of the
best features of the full version but is less than half the price.Sibelius is another great option and is very popular now in many music
schools and conservatories but it is as expensive as the full Finale.Good luck.David M. Kleiman
President & CEO
Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On Behalf Of
Norm Cohen
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:05 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Music writing programFriends:
I'm sure this was discussed some time ago, but could someone refresh me on
what are convenient  pc programs for writing/composing music?
Thanks,
Norm Cohen

<<Noteworthy Composer isn't bad, and  a freeware version is available for
downloading. Personally, I'm using a relic called SongWright--it's easy
to use, and its main disadvantage is that it only lets you work on one
line at a time, and displays only half the line at any one time. Th
company that published it has given up the ghost, but if you want to try
it, I can send you a copy.>>I use it too. Relic is right; it's a DOS program. But the interface, while
peculiar, is very easy to use once you get the hang of it. (You can display
the whole line, by the way, if you hit Ctrl-End.) Nice features include easy
transposition and clef changes -- it even transposes the chords if you
transpose the tune. It also plays via the little speaker in your computer,
or in MIDI if you prefer. The main disadvantage is that you have no control
over justification unless you manually delete spaces; in other words, a
whole note takes up 4x the space of a quarter note. And trying to change
typefaces is a screaming pain, but if you're doing classical music that's
less of an issue than for us folkies, who write out chord symbols.All that said, I keep on using it.Peace,
Paul

Brilliant, brilliant.The Child notes are unequivocal and fulsome. Still don't know why my
[undated Moxon's Popular Poets] edition of Scott has the name Hambleton,
[I've a vague recollection of a songbook note that assumes from this
spelling that the maid in question was English] but it don't signify.
My question is clearly answered, and in time.Many thanks indeed to all who gave and offered aid in time of need.Particular thanks to David Kleiman for 20 PDF pages [!] , and to the
unnamed person from the List who kindly abstracted a key passage from
Child.And thanks for offers of help to John Cowles, Fred McCormick, Steve G.The Ballad List triumphs again.EwanEwan McVicar,
84 High Street
Linlithgow,
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

A fairly comprehensive and non-commercial listing of musical notation
software is available at: http://ace.acadiau.ca/score/others.htm
One of my favorites is the MusEdit software which features both
simultaneous text and notation/tablature abilities for both ensembles
and single voices.     It is at www.musedit.comHowever, there may be issues with compatibility with other notation
programs, etc.  Finale is perhaps becoming a defacto standard for
music notation software.Jane Keefer----- Original Message -----
From: David Kleiman <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Music writing program> Norman,
>
> As you may have noticed the majority of responses suggest either
Finale
> (full version) or Finale Notepad (limited freebie).  See the
products at
>
> http://www.finalemusic.com/  You can download Notepad 2003 from
here.
>
> We use full Finale for all of the music work here at Heritage Muse.
I also
> use it for performance arranging for the choral group I run.
>
> Notepad is probably too basic for what your son wants. However,
there is an
> in-between alternative....check out Finale Allegro which has many
of the
> best features of the full version but is less than half the price.
>
> Sibelius is another great option and is very popular now in many
music
> schools and conservatories but it is as expensive as the full
Finale.
>
> Good luck.
>
> David M. Kleiman
> President & CEO
> Heritage Muse, Inc. & ESPB Publishing, Ltd.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]] On
Behalf Of
> Norm Cohen
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:05 PM
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Music writing program
>
> Friends:
> I'm sure this was discussed some time ago, but could someone
refresh me on
> what are convenient  pc programs for writing/composing music?
> Thanks,
> Norm Cohen

SteveMuch appreciate the offer. I got sent 20 pages already!
Kind people out there.RegardsEwanEwan McVicar,
84 High Street
Linlithgow,
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

Picked up a couple of interesting records this week:JIMMY MacBEATH, COME A' YE TRAMPS AND HAWKERS
7" EP in the Collector Records series from 1960. I have a few of these
with artists such as Jeannie Robertson and Robin Hall. Don't know much
about the company or who was behind the folk song series.VARIOUS, HEATHER AND GLEN - A collection of folk songs and folk music
from Aberdeenshire and the Hebrides collected by Alan Lomax, Calum
McLean and Hamish Henderson. Jeannie Robertson, Jimmy MacBeath, John
Strachan, John Burgess (the piper), Davy Stewart, Flora McNeill, and
others make up a breathtaking line-up.NADIA CATTOUSE AND ROBIN HALL & JIMMIE MACGREGOR, SONGS OF GRIEF AND
GLORY
An LP from 1967 which I've never seen before, the result of a
television songwriting competition. I haven't listened to this one yet,
so I can't vouch for its quality.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
Friday-Monday: mailto:[unmask]
Tuesday-Thursday: mailto:[unmask]

Balladeers --I've been struggling with "Row Us Over the Tide," a song recorded
by a variety of old-time musicians but not found in any significant
printed sources.The problem is this: The (relatively) canonical version is
Kelly Harrell's, which is sort of a mystery song: Two orphans
want a boatman to "row us over the tide." No reason is given;
neither do they reveal a destination.But I recently listened to the version on Kathy Kallick's
recording "My Mother's Voice" (quite a nice record, in a
pop-folk-tending-to-bluegrass way; it's mostly traditional
or near-traditional songs, done quite impressively). This
recording has a wildly different version in which angels
eventually come to care for the children.But Kallick doesn't do much to supply source information.
She learned all the songs from her mother, and doesn't say
where her mother learned them.So: Does anyone know where Harrell's version came from,
where Kallick's came from, and how these two different
recensions arose?
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Some references from my favorite source, "Country Music Sources" by
Meade / Spottswood / Meade [2002].The words and music were originally credited to E. C. AVIS (1888).Versions may be found in:Eagle, H. M., Excellent Songs for Special Occasions (Showalter Co. 1915) #63Crabtree, Lillian G., Songs and Ballads Sung In Overton Co. TN (M.A.
Thesis, George Peabody College, Nashville, TN, 1936) pp. 109/10Beard, Ann W., The Personal Folksong Collection of Bascom Lamar Lunsford
(M.A. Thesis, Miami U, Oxford, OH, 1959) pp. 655/7Perry, Henry W, A Sampling of the Folklore of Carter Co TN (M.A. Thesis,
George Peabody College, Nashville, TN, 1938) p. 287The Blue Sky Boys version (1936) implies that the children are reunited,
in death, with their parents in heaven.Jesus so full of compassion and love
Rowed them over the tide [3x]
Took them to Heaven with loved ones to dwell
Rowed them over the tideRobert B. Waltz wrote:>Balladeers --
>
>I've been struggling with "Row Us Over the Tide," a song recorded
>by a variety of old-time musicians but not found in any significant
>printed sources.
>
>The problem is this: The (relatively) canonical version is
>Kelly Harrell's, which is sort of a mystery song: Two orphans
>want a boatman to "row us over the tide." No reason is given;
>neither do they reveal a destination.
>
>But I recently listened to the version on Kathy Kallick's
>recording "My Mother's Voice" (quite a nice record, in a
>pop-folk-tending-to-bluegrass way; it's mostly traditional
>or near-traditional songs, done quite impressively). This
>recording has a wildly different version in which angels
>eventually come to care for the children.
>
>But Kallick doesn't do much to supply source information.
>She learned all the songs from her mother, and doesn't say
>where her mother learned them.
>
>So: Does anyone know where Harrell's version came from,
>where Kallick's came from, and how these two different
>recensions arose?
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."
>
>
>

On 12/12/03, Clifford Ocheltree wrote:>Some references from my favorite source, "Country Music Sources" by
>Meade / Spottswood / Meade [2002].
>
>The words and music were originally credited to E. C. AVIS (1888).
>
>Versions may be found in:
>
>Eagle, H. M., Excellent Songs for Special Occasions (Showalter Co. 1915) #63
>
>Crabtree, Lillian G., Songs and Ballads Sung In Overton Co. TN (M.A.
>Thesis, George Peabody College, Nashville, TN, 1936) pp. 109/10
>
>Beard, Ann W., The Personal Folksong Collection of Bascom Lamar Lunsford
>(M.A. Thesis, Miami U, Oxford, OH, 1959) pp. 655/7
>
>Perry, Henry W, A Sampling of the Folklore of Carter Co TN (M.A. Thesis,
>George Peabody College, Nashville, TN, 1938) p. 287
>
>The Blue Sky Boys version (1936) implies that the children are reunited,
>in death, with their parents in heaven.
>
>Jesus so full of compassion and love
>Rowed them over the tide [3x]
>Took them to Heaven with loved ones to dwell
>Rowed them over the tideAll right, that's the Kallick version. As a guess, the
Blue Sky Boys originated it. Thanks!
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 12/13/03, Clifford Ocheltree wrote:>FYI "Sources" lists some additional recordings by:
>
>Bela Lam & His Greene Co Singers (1927)
>Mr. & Mrs. E.C. Mills (1929, unissued)
>Clarence & Claude Ganus (1929)
>Lulu Belle & Scotty (1940, unissued)I'll add them to the Ballad Index once I find recording
numbers. Thanks.BTW -- how did you find data on all those theses?
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>On 12/13/03, Clifford Ocheltree wrote:>FYI "Sources" lists some additional recordings by:
>
>Bela Lam & His Greene Co Singers (1927)
>Mr. & Mrs. E.C. Mills (1929, unissued)
>Clarence & Claude Ganus (1929)
>Lulu Belle & Scotty (1940, unissued)<<I'll add them to the Ballad Index once I find recording
numbers. Thanks.>>The Lam recording is already in the Index. For the Mills & Lulu Belle &
Scotty recordings, we'd need matrix or control numbers, which would be in
Meade, I'd guess. Likewuse the Ganus Bros.Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Bad Lee Brown mowed down Little Sadie, perhaps under the influence of
cocaine.  He ran, was overtaken in Jericho, and was returned to
Thomasville for trial.  He got a long prison sentence but all he
"ever done" was "kill my wife."Some think this to be a North Carolina ballad.  I'm not sure, since
there are several states, and pairs of states, with nearby Jericho
and Thomasville.Anyhow, I haven't thought of a good was to get started trying to find
a historical background.  This is a tough one.  The ballad is very
widespread.Any ideas?--
john garst    [unmask]

John:Laws's revised edition (1964) of _Native American Balladry_ lists 11 versions of this ballad.  They are from Mississippi, North Carolina, Tennessee (as "Little Sadie"), Missouri (Ozarks), Kentucky, Florida, Arkansas, and South Carolina.Which of these states have the paired towns?  And which have rail lines between those towns, since in some versions Bad Lee states that the authorities ("they") put him on a train to return him to the site of the murder?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, December 13, 2003 12:15 pm
Subject: Bad Lee Brown> Bad Lee Brown mowed down Little Sadie, perhaps under the influence of
> cocaine.  He ran, was overtaken in Jericho, and was returned to
> Thomasville for trial.  He got a long prison sentence but all he
> "ever done" was "kill my wife."
>
> Some think this to be a North Carolina ballad.  I'm not sure, since
> there are several states, and pairs of states, with nearby Jericho
> and Thomasville.
>
> Anyhow, I haven't thought of a good was to get started trying to find
> a historical background.  This is a tough one.  The ballad is very
> widespread.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi!        Here is another list from Ebay. It is a bit shorter than usual.
There seem to be fewer books this week.        SONGSTERS        3572923302 - Forget Me Not Songster, $49.99 (ends Dec-20-03
13:53:42 PST)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2580328052 - IRISH COUNTRY SONGS by Hughes, 1909, $6 (ends
Dec-13-03 20:03:02 PST)        3572537460 - Strike The Bell by Palmer, 1978, 1 GBP (ends
Dec-14-03 02:41:18 PST)        3572775921 - CANAL WATER & WHISKEY by Rapp, 1965, $5 (ends
Dec-14-03 19:19:03 PST)        3572485038 - The Overlander Song Book by Edwards, 1972, $9.95
(ends Dec-15-03 19:01:25 PST)        3572485985 - Rare Songs in Collections: An Index by De Charms &
Breed, 1967, $18 (ends Dec-15-03 19:04:33 PST)        3572519141 - Lay My Burden Down by Botkin, 1945, $9.95 w/reserve
(ends Dec-16-03 09:00:00 PST)        3573155920 - The Ballads of Robin Hood by Lees, 1977, $69.99
(ends Dec-16-03 15:11:42 PST)        2579689706 - American-English Folk-Songs from the Southern
Appalachian Mountains, Sharp, 1918, $3.95 (ends Dec-16-03 16:19:58 PST)        3572778829 - American Popular Music (1875-1950), 1955, $4.99
(ends Dec-16-03 19:33:36 PST)        3260224463 - Ballads and Folk Songs of the Southwest by Moore,
1966, $9.99 (ends Dec-18-03 10:17:49 PST)        3573093851 - An Orkney Anthology by Marwick/Robertson, 16 GBP
(ends Dec-18-03 11:05:32 PST)        3260423636 - Songs of the Isles by Robertson, 1950, $12 (ends
Dec-19-03 08:59:06 PST)        3573315204 - Bawdy Songs and Backroom Ballads by Brand, 1960,
$15 (ends Dec-19-03 13:05:29 PST)        3572828629 - The Book of Irish Ballads by McCarthy, 1846, 5.50
GBP (ends Dec-20-03 06:02:38 PST)        MISCELLANEOUS        3370702567 - AMERICAN FOLK MUSIC, VHS video, 1987, $5.99 (ends
Dec-17-03 09:10:20 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Two other versions worth mentioning:Kathy Kallick, on "My Mother's Voice" from 2001 [COPPER CREEK 201]CarlStory, on "Mighty Close to Heaven" from 1963 [ STARDAY 219]

On 12/13/03, Clifford Ocheltree wrote:>Bela Lam = OKeh 45126
>Mills = Brunswick unissued
>Ganus = Vocalion 5312
>Lulu Belle & Scotty = OKeh unissuedThanks.>The Blue Sky Boys recording = Bluebird B6567 and Montgomery Ward M7018. Don't know if "Row Us Over" was on the Blue Sky Boys 2 LP reissue which came out in the mid 80s [?] but it is currently available on the new Bear Family reissue [2003] of their recordings. Best $100 I've spent all year.FWIW, there is also a 3(?)-volume Blue Sky Boys reissue on Copper Creek.
It's not on the disks I have, though.>Kelly Harrell's version was available on Document [DOCD 8027] which came out in 1998. The Document "country" series was short lived and seems to have ended when Johnny Parth sold the label in 1999 [?]. Those discs have become VERY hard to find.I have both volumes, though. If people really are having trouble
tracking down Document recordings, try the Homestead Pickin' Parlor
(www.homesteadpickinparlor.com). They have a *lot* of them in their
bins -- and if you buy them by year-end, then I won't have to count
them at inventory time. :-)>The references all came from "Country Music Sources" by Meade / Spottswood / Meade [dist. by U. of N.C. Press 2002]. Great book [last years best $100 spent]Sounds like it. Thanks for the information -- and the recommendation.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

DOCUMENT CDs (as well as any other label) are available from CAMSCO Music. Call 800/548-FOLK (3655)dick greenhaus
>
> From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/12/13 Sat PM 05:25:41 CST
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Row Us Over the Rewrite
>
> On 12/13/03, Clifford Ocheltree wrote:
>
> >Bela Lam = OKeh 45126
> >Mills = Brunswick unissued
> >Ganus = Vocalion 5312
> >Lulu Belle & Scotty = OKeh unissued
>
> Thanks.
>
> >The Blue Sky Boys recording = Bluebird B6567 and Montgomery Ward M7018. Don't know if "Row Us Over" was on the Blue Sky Boys 2 LP reissue which came out in the mid 80s [?] but it is currently available on the new Bear Family reissue [2003] of their recordings. Best $100 I've spent all year.
>
> FWIW, there is also a 3(?)-volume Blue Sky Boys reissue on Copper Creek.
> It's not on the disks I have, though.
>
> >Kelly Harrell's version was available on Document [DOCD 8027] which came out in 1998. The Document "country" series was short lived and seems to have ended when Johnny Parth sold the label in 1999 [?]. Those discs have become VERY hard to find.
>
> I have both volumes, though. If people really are having trouble
> tracking down Document recordings, try the Homestead Pickin' Parlor
> (www.homesteadpickinparlor.com). They have a *lot* of them in their
> bins -- and if you buy them by year-end, then I won't have to count
> them at inventory time. :-)
>
> >The references all came from "Country Music Sources" by Meade / Spottswood / Meade [dist. by U. of N.C. Press 2002]. Great book [last years best $100 spent]
>
> Sounds like it. Thanks for the information -- and the recommendation.
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

Folks, this is absolutely off-topic when it comes to ballads, but I can't think of a better group of people to ask.
What do English-speaking people who are not British call the day before Good Friday? We Brits call it Maundy Thursday, but I understand that in Ireland (not NI) it is known as Holy Thursday, presumably to lose the association with the Crown (the monarch holds the ceremony of Maundy Money on that day).
The reason I ask is that I am translating a guide into English for visitors to a particular festivity in Spain. The literal translation is "Holy Thursday", which means nothing to British visitors, although they could no doubt work it out. But of course, Britons won't be the only English-speaking visitors, and I'd like to use the most common term. What, for example, do you call the day in the US?
Cheers
Simon

I think it's more a matter of whether you are Anglican or Catholic, or whether or not you adhere to the Liturgical year.  anglicans call it Maundy Thursday, and Catholics call it Holy Thursday, but I think it's less a matter of citizenship than of religious affiliation.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Simon Furey
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 11:24 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: A cultural questionFolks, this is absolutely off-topic when it comes to ballads, but I can't think of a better group of people to ask.
What do English-speaking people who are not British call the day before Good Friday? We Brits call it Maundy Thursday, but I understand that in Ireland (not NI) it is known as Holy Thursday, presumably to lose the association with the Crown (the monarch holds the ceremony of Maundy Money on that day).
The reason I ask is that I am translating a guide into English for visitors to a particular festivity in Spain. The literal translation is "Holy Thursday", which means nothing to British visitors, although they could no doubt work it out. But of course, Britons won't be the only English-speaking visitors, and I'd like to use the most common term. What, for example, do you call the day in the US?
Cheers
Simon

--- Simon Furey <[unmask]> wrote:
> What do English-speaking people who are not British
> call the day before Good Friday? We Brits call it
> Maundy Thursday, but I understand that in Ireland
> (not NI) it is known as Holy ThursdayI have always known it as Maundy Thursday -- I'm
non-practicing, but I was brought up Lutheran
(Missouri Synod) in the suburbs of Milwaukee,
Wisconsin and attended a Lutheran high school (being
graduated in 1967).It hasn't come up often in conversation in the past
thirty odd years, but I believe Maundy Thursday is at
least understood by my church-going friends and
acquaintances to be the Thursday before Good Friday.
I'm unsure as to whether I've heard Holy Thursday used
here in New Hampshire at all.Guess I'll have to ask around!Linn=====
******************************************************************
Linn S. Schulz
Writing - Editing - Print Design & Production
phone/fax 603-942-7604
Mailing Address: PO Box 4402, Portsmouth, NH 03802  USA******************************************************************__________________________________
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Rare Songs in Collections
Hi, thanks for your info, Dolores, I missed this one on my usual trawl.
I'm bidding at the moment. Anyone else interested, perhaps we can help each
other! Or is this unethical?
SteveG a.k.a.gripperfolk.

>John:
>
>Laws's revised edition (1964) of _Native American Balladry_ lists 11
>versions of this ballad.  They are from Mississippi, North Carolina,
>Tennessee (as "Little Sadie"), Missouri (Ozarks), Kentucky, Florida,
>Arkansas, and South Carolina.
>
>Which of these states have the paired towns?  And which have rail
>lines between those towns, since in some versions Bad Lee states
>that the authorities ("they") put him on a train to return him to
>the site of the murder?
>
>EdI have the data on states/towns, but it is at home so I can't answer
specifically.  I think I recall that there are four states with both
towns, and I think I recall that three of them are southern - of
course, the crime need not be southern.  It is strange that Laws'
list doesn't include recoveries from the western states - there are
some - Texas and west.  Indeed, this ballad is sometimes anthologized
as western.  Anyhow, I've looked into this previously, and I have the
data.  Of course, it isn't necessary that Thomasville and Jericho be
in the same state, although there could have been extradition
problems if not.The train idea is a really good one.  I hadn't thought of it.Thanks, Ed.--
john garst    [unmask]

On 12/14/03, Steiner, Margaret wrote:>I think it's more a matter of whether you are Anglican or Catholic, or whether or not you adhere to the Liturgical year.  anglicans call it Maundy Thursday, and Catholics call it Holy Thursday, but I think it's less a matter of citizenship than of religious affiliation.It's not just Anglicans who use "Maundy Thursday"; I've never been
near an Anglican church, and I'd recognize "Maundy Thursday" but
not "Holy Thursday." I'd incline to "Maundy," on the grounds that
you'll never see that terminology used for anything else, but
any group might have a "Holy Thursday." :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

<<I think it's more a matter of whether you are Anglican or Catholic, or
whether or not you adhere to the Liturgical year.  anglicans call it Maundy
Thursday, and Catholics call it Holy Thursday, but I think it's less a
matter of citizenship than of religious affiliation.>>For what it's worth, most secular calendars in the USA, if they denote the
day at all, call it Maundy Thursday, probably because Protestants outnumber
Catholics in this country.Peace,
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<I have the data on states/towns, but it is at home so I can't answer
specifically.  I think I recall that there are four states with both
towns, and I think I recall that three of them are southern - of
course, the crime need not be southern.  It is strange that Laws'
list doesn't include recoveries from the western states - there are
some - Texas and west.  Indeed, this ballad is sometimes anthologized
as western.  Anyhow, I've looked into this previously, and I have the
data.  Of course, it isn't necessary that Thomasville and Jericho be
in the same state, although there could have been extradition
problems if not.>>I seem to remember that Thomasville, VA and Jericho, NC (or the other way
around) have been suggested as locales for the ballad. Extradition was
pretty informal sometimes; I think the idea of "hot pursuit" was applied.Peace,
PaulThe train idea is a really good one.  I hadn't thought of it.Thanks, Ed.--
john garst    [unmask]

Catholics in US call it Holy Thursday.
Thomas Stern.Simon Furey wrote:> Folks, this is absolutely off-topic when it comes to ballads, but I can't think of a better group of people to ask.
> What do English-speaking people who are not British call the day before Good Friday? We Brits call it Maundy Thursday, but I understand that in Ireland (not NI) it is known as Holy Thursday, presumably to lose the association with the Crown (the monarch holds the ceremony of Maundy Money on that day).
> The reason I ask is that I am translating a guide into English for visitors to a particular festivity in Spain. The literal translation is "Holy Thursday", which means nothing to British visitors, although they could no doubt work it out. But of course, Britons won't be the only English-speaking visitors, and I'd like to use the most common term. What, for example, do you call the day in the US?
> Cheers
> Simon

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

If this is what I think it is, the "Rare" is not part of the title of the
book and I won't bid on it (I already have it).  It is useful, tho.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: Re: Ebay list - 12/13/03> Rare Songs in Collections
> Hi, thanks for your info, Dolores, I missed this one on my usual trawl.
> I'm bidding at the moment. Anyone else interested, perhaps we can help
each
> other! Or is this unethical?
> SteveG a.k.a.gripperfolk.
>

Everyone,
Many thanks for the prompt feedback. I had actually used "Maundy Thursday" in my translation when I had second thoughts and wondered if I was unsuitably imposing a peculiarly British customary term. It's so difficult to know what is local as opposed to global terminology, particularly in relation to customs, and your answers show how useful the Internet is for answering such questions.
Cheers
Simon

 As a Roman Catholic in the Alleghanys I always called it "Holy Thursday"
and it wasn't until I went to school in New Hampshire that I heard the
"Maundy Thursday" terminology.  John
 [unmask]>
> On 12/14/03, Steiner, Margaret wrote:
>
> >I think it's more a matter of whether you are Anglican or Catholic, or whether or not you adhere to the Liturgical year.  anglicans call it Maundy Thursday, and Catholics call it Holy Thursday, but I think it's less a matter of citizenship than of religious affiliation.
>
> It's not just Anglicans who use "Maundy Thursday"; I've never been
> near an Anglican church, and I'd recognize "Maundy Thursday" but
> not "Holy Thursday." I'd incline to "Maundy," on the grounds that
> you'll never see that terminology used for anything else, but
> any group might have a "Holy Thursday." :-)
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

>In a message dated 12/14/2003 4:24:08 PM GMT Standard Time,
>[unmask] writes:
>
>>What do English-speaking people who are not British call the day
>>before Good Friday? We Brits call it Maundy Thursday, but I
>>understand that in Ireland (not NI) it is known as Holy Thursday,
>>presumably to lose the association with the Crown (the monarch
>>holds the ceremony of Maundy Money on that day).
>>
>
>
>Is there not a ballad "Judas" which calls it "Score Thursday" - I've
>always heard it as Holy Thursday when we're ignoring the association
>with the Royal Maundy which is probably an invented tradition no
>matter how old. (The oxymoron is intentional.)
>
>John MouldenI've heard Maundy Thursday all my life in the US - but I never heard
what "Maundy" means. You could always say "Holy Thursday (Maundy
Thursday)" -- or vice versa.  Could someone please explain what
"Maundy" means? What is "the Royal Maundy" or "Maundy Money"?--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

Holy Thursday is ambiguous, since in Anglican terms it refers to Ascension
Day (next Thursday but one before Whitsun). Maundy is probably the best bet;
another term would be Shere Thursday [various spellings], various
etymologies, including Middle English (back in Catholic times) "schere",
clean, free from guilt, or else maybe "shear", in the ordinary meaning,
having in mind the clipping of beards and so forth to look good for Easter.

Well, I know I'm English, but I've always known it as Maundy
Thursday, and my American dictionary defines that phrase as the
Thursday before Easter, with no sectarian discrimination and no
reference to Royalty. From ME maunde, the ceremony of washing the
feet of the poor on Maundy Thursday, and Old French, mandé, from L
mandatum, from the use of mandatum at the beginning of the prayer for
washing the feet, commemorating Jesus' washing of the disciples' feet.(Marvellous invention, the dictionary. Brilliant!!)This dictionary also gives Holy Thursday as 1) Maundy Thursday; 2)
Ascension Day. Ascension day is the 40th day after Easter. Thus the
ambiguity of the term Holy Thursday.The use of "Maundy" seems to precede the English monarch's show of
benificence on a holiday, I can't see abandoning the use of "Maundy"
just because some English king decided to use that day to give some
money away.John Roberts

----- Original Message -----
From: John Roberts
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 15 December 2003 03:27
Subject: Re: [BALLAD-L] A cultural questionFrom ME maunde, the ceremony of washing the
feet of the poor on Maundy Thursday, and Old French, mandé, from L
mandatum, from the use of mandatum at the beginning of the prayer for
washing the feet, commemorating Jesus' washing of the disciples' feet.The use of "Maundy" seems to precede the English monarch's show of
benificence on a holiday, I can't see abandoning the use of "Maundy"
just because some English king decided to use that day to give some
money away.---------------The involvement of the (originally, English) monarchy is nevertheless of quite long standing; dating
at least from the 13th century from what I gather. For several centuries, monarchs did actually wash
the feet of poor subjects; though Elizabeth I, to be on the safe side, made sure that they had each
already been washed three times, by three different people. Gifts of food and clothing were also
made. William III ended direct royal involvement (though the ceremony itself continued), but this
was revived by George V and persists to the present. Nowadays there are two token gifts per person
of ordinary coin, and another of specially minted "maundy money", the ceremony being symbolic rather
than practical, as none of it would pay for a reasonable night at the pub at today's prices; though
it might just about cover having your feet washed by someone who wasn't too particular.Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>> VARIOUS, HEATHER AND GLEN - A collection of folk songs and folk music
> from Aberdeenshire and the Hebrides collected by Alan Lomax, Calum
> McLean and Hamish Henderson. Jeannie Robertson, Jimmy MacBeath, John
> Strachan, John Burgess (the piper), Davy Stewart, Flora McNeill, and
> others make up a breathtaking line-up.<<This is still available on cassette from Ossian Publications in Cork - (or
from Ulstersongs)>>And I *think* it has been reissued on CD on the newly-reactivated Tradition
label in the USA.Peace,
Paul

Clinton County New York has a Thomasville and a Jericho. Thomasville was
near the Arnold Hill-Palmer Hill Iron vein which was the richest iron vein
prior to the discovery of the mesabe range. It was mined in the 1890's. They
said they timbered 10,000 acres of woodlot for use of coke ovens. There is a
coke oven on my property near there.  There was a railroad in nearby
harkness. It is quite northern.
I had understood that Elanor Wilgus was studying what I call Little Sadie.
I have been singing Clarence Ashley's version since 1963, in Thomasville
since 1970.
sutley    at rochester.rr.com
I have lots of ballad books. I am banjerscott on ebay
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Bad Lee Brown> >John:
> >
> >Laws's revised edition (1964) of _Native American Balladry_ lists 11
> >versions of this ballad.  They are from Mississippi, North Carolina,
> >Tennessee (as "Little Sadie"), Missouri (Ozarks), Kentucky, Florida,
> >Arkansas, and South Carolina.
> >
> >Which of these states have the paired towns?  And which have rail
> >lines between those towns, since in some versions Bad Lee states
> >that the authorities ("they") put him on a train to return him to
> >the site of the murder?
> >
> >Ed
>
> I have the data on states/towns, but it is at home so I can't answer
> specifically.  I think I recall that there are four states with both
> towns, and I think I recall that three of them are southern - of
> course, the crime need not be southern.  It is strange that Laws'
> list doesn't include recoveries from the western states - there are
> some - Texas and west.  Indeed, this ballad is sometimes anthologized
> as western.  Anyhow, I've looked into this previously, and I have the
> data.  Of course, it isn't necessary that Thomasville and Jericho be
> in the same state, although there could have been extradition
> problems if not.
>
> The train idea is a really good one.  I hadn't thought of it.
>
> Thanks, Ed.
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

Thanks, Norm.
I've mailed the book. Post a message when it arrives or send an email,
Seasons greetings,
SteveG

Scott Utley wrote:>Clinton County New York has a Thomasville and a Jericho. Thomasville was
>near the Arnold Hill-Palmer Hill Iron vein which was the richest iron vein
>prior to the discovery of the mesabe range. It was mined in the 1890's. They
>said they timbered 10,000 acres of woodlot for use of coke ovens. There is a
>coke oven on my property near there.  There was a railroad in nearby
>harkness. It is quite northern.
>I had understood that Elanor Wilgus was studying what I call Little Sadie.Thanks.  I didn't know about that.  I do know that she has studied
Little Omie Wise.--
john garst    [unmask]

Am I overlooking "McKinley"/"White House Blues" in Laws, Native
American Balladry, 2nd ed., 1964.  I certainly can't find it there,
and if it isn't there, I can't account for its absence.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 12/16/03, John Garst wrote:>Am I overlooking "McKinley"/"White House Blues" in Laws, Native
>American Balladry, 2nd ed., 1964.  I certainly can't find it there,
>and if it isn't there, I can't account for its absence.It's not in there. Lots of ballads not in Laws. But I suspect
the reason is that it didn't fit his definition of "traditional."
It's been recorded zillions of times by old-time performers,
but field collections are few.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

R. W. Gordon realized in 1927 that "White House Blues" and "Delia"
use the same tune and that "Delia" was sung in the spring of 1901
while McKinley was assassinated in the fall.  The implication is that
"White House Blues" is a rewrite of "Delia."  Several verses of
"White House Blues" are similar to those of "Delia."Before WWII there were over 40 recoveries of "Delia," almost all from
blacks.  (I am aware of only one from a white.)  In contrast, "White
House Blues" seems to be known only among whites.  (I have not found
it in Dixon, Godrich, Rye.)Can anyone verify or refute these statements?
Other comments?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Hi!        Here is the latest Ebay list for all of you late holiday
shoppers (no matter which holiday you celebrate - or not).        SONGSTERS        3574289916 - The Prohibition Songster, 1884, $10 (ends Dec-20-03
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                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On 12/19/03, John Garst wrote:>R. W. Gordon realized in 1927 that "White House Blues" and "Delia"
>use the same tune and that "Delia" was sung in the spring of 1901
>while McKinley was assassinated in the fall.  The implication is that
>"White House Blues" is a rewrite of "Delia."  Several verses of
>"White House Blues" are similar to those of "Delia."
>
>Before WWII there were over 40 recoveries of "Delia," almost all from
>blacks.  (I am aware of only one from a white.)  In contrast, "White
>House Blues" seems to be known only among whites.  (I have not found
>it in Dixon, Godrich, Rye.)
>
>Can anyone verify or refute these statements?
>Other comments?The statements about sources seem to be more or less correct.
Are you sure about the tunes, though? Every version I've heard
of "White House Blues" uses the same tune (which stays on the
opening tone for pretty much the whole first line) -- but
"Delia" has a diverse set of tunes. Allowing that it's
been found using "White House Blues," how do we know that
that's the original tune?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I purchase books as banjerscott on ebay
I have sold folklore books at the past two AFS conferences
Someone in albequerque mentioned that Rosalie Sorrels was looking for an
Idaho produced LP (not the folkways one)
I have a copy of Somewhere Between produced by Boise Unitarian Universalsit
Fellowship box 605 Boise.
Does anybody know how to get in touch with rosalie?
Scott Utley
sutley at rochester.rr.com>         3573527024 - WAY OUT IN IDAHO by Sorrels, 1991, $15 (Ends
> Dec-20-03 15:50:17 PST)
>

Hi all,And I shall be looking at the Child.Dave

Scott:
If you can't find her, or she isn't interested, I might be.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Utley" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 12/19/03 sorrels> I purchase books as banjerscott on ebay
> I have sold folklore books at the past two AFS conferences
> Someone in albequerque mentioned that Rosalie Sorrels was looking for an
> Idaho produced LP (not the folkways one)
> I have a copy of Somewhere Between produced by Boise Unitarian
Universalsit
> Fellowship box 605 Boise.
> Does anybody know how to get in touch with rosalie?
> Scott Utley
> sutley at rochester.rr.com
>
>
> >         3573527024 - WAY OUT IN IDAHO by Sorrels, 1991, $15 (Ends
> > Dec-20-03 15:50:17 PST)
> >
>

The song index in "County Music Sources" lists no versions of "Delia."
What is the single white recording?John Garst wrote:> R. W. Gordon realized in 1927 that "White House Blues" and "Delia"
> use the same tune and that "Delia" was sung in the spring of 1901
> while McKinley was assassinated in the fall.  The implication is that
> "White House Blues" is a rewrite of "Delia."  Several verses of
> "White House Blues" are similar to those of "Delia."
>
> Before WWII there were over 40 recoveries of "Delia," almost all from
> blacks.  (I am aware of only one from a white.)  In contrast, "White
> House Blues" seems to be known only among whites.  (I have not found
> it in Dixon, Godrich, Rye.)
>
> Can anyone verify or refute these statements?
> Other comments?
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]><<And I shall be looking at the Child.>>Well, it *is* Chrismas...Peace,
Paul

Dave,
Does this 'looking at Child' have anything to do with the Customs Lads five-
year Improvement Plan. c1965?
Steve

Dave> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]>
>
> <<And I shall be looking at the Child.>>
>
> Well, it *is* Chrismas...
>
And I have now made a bid for the Child!!Regards,Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk

I don't have the book here, but I'm pretty sure Cece Conway, in  her book
about the banjo, gives examples of the black banjo player Dink Roberts
singing fragments of "White House Blues."Dave Gardner----- Original Message -----
From: "Clifford Ocheltree" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:54 AM
Subject: Re: White House Blues and Delia> The song index in "County Music Sources" lists no versions of "Delia."
> What is the single white recording?
>
> John Garst wrote:
>
> > R. W. Gordon realized in 1927 that "White House Blues" and "Delia"
> > use the same tune and that "Delia" was sung in the spring of 1901
> > while McKinley was assassinated in the fall.  The implication is that
> > "White House Blues" is a rewrite of "Delia."  Several verses of
> > "White House Blues" are similar to those of "Delia."
> >
> > Before WWII there were over 40 recoveries of "Delia," almost all from
> > blacks.  (I am aware of only one from a white.)  In contrast, "White
> > House Blues" seems to be known only among whites.  (I have not found
> > it in Dixon, Godrich, Rye.)
> >
> > Can anyone verify or refute these statements?
> > Other comments?
> >
> > Thanks.
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
> >

I'm not in Athens again until after Christmas, being instead in Durham,
NC, with my daughter's family, so any further remarks from me are "off the
top of my head" (just like before, for the most part)> I don't have the book here, but I'm pretty sure Cece Conway, in  her
> book about the banjo, gives examples of the black banjo player Dink
> Roberts singing fragments of "White House Blues."
>
> Dave GardnerThanks, Dave.  I'll check that out when I get back home.> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clifford Ocheltree" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 12:54 AM
> Subject: Re: White House Blues and Delia
>
>
>> The song index in "County Music Sources" lists no versions of "Delia."
>> What is the single white recording?One of the short fragments printing by Chapman Milling, Southern Folklore
Quarterly, 1937, was collected from a white.>> John Garst wrote:
>>
>> > R. W. Gordon realized in 1927 that "White House Blues" and "Delia"
>> use the same tune and that "Delia" was sung in the spring of 1901
>> while McKinley was assassinated in the fall.  The implication is
>> that "White House Blues" is a rewrite of "Delia."  Several verses of
>> "White House Blues" are similar to those of "Delia."
>> >
>> > Before WWII there were over 40 recoveries of "Delia," almost all
>> from blacks.  (I am aware of only one from a white.)  In contrast,
>> "White House Blues" seems to be known only among whites.  (I have
>> not found it in Dixon, Godrich, Rye.)
>> >
>> > Can anyone verify or refute these statements?
>> > Other comments?Someone, Bob Waltz, I think, questioned the "identities" of the "Delia"
and "White House Blues" tunes, asking if I were sure and commenting that
the "White House Blues" tune seems to be pretty stable in
hillbilly/bluegrass traditions while "Delia" is sung to a "variety of
tunes."(1) As noted above, Gordon identified the tunes as the same in 1927, when
he was living on the Georgia coast.  (Was it in Darien?)(2) The Will Winn tune published by Milling (SFQ 1937) for "Delia Holmes"
is the usual "White House Blues" tune, note for note.(3) All the "Delia" tunes that I can recall, from both the Bahamas
("Delia's Gone") and the USA ("Delia" and many other titles), are similar
to one another and to "White House Blues."They have a tripartite structure and follow, or come close to, the classic
blues chord progression.Their texts are quatrains of short lines that are doubled to make blues
phrases, producing two blues phrases.  These are followed by a third blues
phrase, a tag line of similar structure (two short text lines)."Delia"/"Delia's Gone" tunes used by Johnny Cash, Bob Dylan, Willie
McTell, and Blind Blake (Higgs) follow this description, I think.Like "WHB," "D"/"DG" tunes invariably open on the 5th degree of the scale
and descend to the third at the end of the first blues phrase.  They vary
in their treatments of the 6th degree in this phrase, but all use it in
some way.  The second blues phrase of "D"/"DG" often varies from "WHB" by
beginning on the 6th degree and descending, whereas the second phrase of
"WHB" begins on the 1st degree, ascends to the 3rd, and returns to the
first.  Even so, some versions of "D" use the "WHB" second phrase itself.
Finally, the third blues phrase, the tag, is also quite variable, but "D"
sometimes follows "WHB" in having the first line (of two) in the tag rise
from the 1st to the 3rd degree and the second line from the 5th below to
the 1st.  The Bahamian "Delia's gone!  One more round, Delia's gone!"
usually uses a slight variant in which the first "Delia's gone" rises from
the 1st to the 3rd degree and the last falls from the 2nd to the 1st
degree, with the "One more round" interjection dropping from the 6th and
5th to the 1st.I see the "D"/"DG" tunes, even with these variations, as evolved versions
of the "WHB" tune.I probably have not listened to, or do not recall, all "D"/"DG" tunes that
have been recorded.  Perhaps some show greater deviations from "WHB" than
those noted above.In any event, the fact remains that "D" and "WHB" have been sung to the
"same" tune (Gordon testimony and Will Winn tune).John Garst

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On 12/20/03, John Garst wrote:[ ... ]>Someone, Bob Waltz, I think, questioned the "identities" of the "Delia"
>and "White House Blues" tunes, asking if I were sure and commenting that
>the "White House Blues" tune seems to be pretty stable in
>hillbilly/bluegrass traditions while "Delia" is sung to a "variety of
>tunes."
>
>(1) As noted above, Gordon identified the tunes as the same in 1927, when
>he was living on the Georgia coast.  (Was it in Darien?)
>
>(2) The Will Winn tune published by Milling (SFQ 1937) for "Delia Holmes"
>is the usual "White House Blues" tune, note for note.
>
>(3) All the "Delia" tunes that I can recall, from both the Bahamas
>("Delia's Gone") and the USA ("Delia" and many other titles), are similar
>to one another and to "White House Blues."
>
>They have a tripartite structure and follow, or come close to, the classic
>blues chord progression.
>
>Their texts are quatrains of short lines that are doubled to make blues
>phrases, producing two blues phrases.  These are followed by a third blues
>phrase, a tag line of similar structure (two short text lines).
>
>"Delia"/"Delia's Gone" tunes used by Johnny Cash, Bob Dylan, Willie
>McTell, and Blind Blake (Higgs) follow this description, I think.
>
>Like "WHB," "D"/"DG" tunes invariably open on the 5th degree of the scale
>and descend to the third at the end of the first blues phrase.This may be our problem. :-) I would say this is pretty typical
of Delia. It's not the way *I* know White House Blues. Putting
both songs in D, I find these notes:Delia:  a a a b D D b a a a b f#
WHB:    a a a b a a a a f#So either we're talking about different White House Blues
tunes or you're nuts.Or both. :-) But I suspect the former, because your
description fits "Delia" and not "White House Blues."
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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>>Like "WHB," "D"/"DG" tunes invariably open on the 5th degree of the
>> scale and descend to the third at the end of the first blues phrase.
>
> This may be our problem. :-) I would say this is pretty typical
> of Delia. It's not the way *I* know White House Blues. Putting
> both songs in D, I find these notes:
>
> Delia:  a a a b D D b a a a b f#
> WHB:    a a a b a a a a f#
>
> So either we're talking about different White House Blues
> tunes or you're nuts.
>
> Or both. :-) But I suspect the former, because your
> description fits "Delia" and not "White House Blues."
> --
> Bob WaltzIs "D" higher or lower than "b"?You don't put words to your notes, so it's a bit hard to tell what you are
comparing, but I will assume that these are both first phrases, despite
the discrepancy in the number of notes (reflecting, I assume, different
numbers of syllables).  If this is so, then your WHB is just like mine.  I
note also that your Delia shares the first four notes with your WHB and
ends on the 3rd, like WHB.  What more do you need to claim that they are
the "same"?John Garst

Excellent stuff, John. Along with the info in English Dance and Song we've
just about covered the essential details now. Presumably Kelly was sent to
Newgate, but we should be able to find out if he was executed or languish'd
in prison till he died. I wonder if it was reported in the French
newspapers. It would be interesting to read their slant on the affair.
SteveG

John, Steve, et al:I wonder if Captain Kelly, late of Dublin, outfitted in Dunkirk, might have been one of the "Wild Geese," Irishmen in service to the French.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Sunday, December 21, 2003 2:35 am
Subject: Ballad Origins - Kelly the Pirate> Steve Gardham's inquiry prompted me to go to the University of Louisiana
> "Belfast Newsletter Index" and I reported that result. I have now got to
> the
> microfilm copies of the newspaper and transcribed - only more or less
> accurately -
> the references. I noticed one more in a subsequent issue but was not able
> to
> take it down more than its location - I suspect there may be more to find
> which
> is not listed in the Newsletter Index [why? - this enters a query on the
> total usefulness of that index.]
>
> Abstracts of the Belfast Newsletter concerning "Kelly the Pirate"
>
> 1782, 4-8 January page 3
> Column 2 "BELFAST"
>
> Extract of a letter from a merchant in Dublin to his correspondent in this
> town, dated 5th inst "The Stag, frigate, Capt Cooper, has brught into the
> bay
> this morning, a large cutter, privateer, the Anti-Briton, commanded by
> John
> Kelly a Rush-man, carrying 24 guns, twelve and nine pounders: She had
> twelve
> ransomers on board to the amount of 60 000l [the last symbol is a lower
> case "L" -
> £60 000] - had sprung her bowsprit and carried away her gaff, and had
> taken
> three vessels off this bay on Monday last, one of which from Newry and was
> ransomed for 10 000l"
>
> 1782, 8-11 January page 2
> Column 4 "Dublin Jan 8"
>
> Intelligence having been received last week that a privateer, commanded by
> one Kelly said to be a native of Waterford, in this kingdom, was cruizing
> in
> this channel, his Majesty's frigate, the Stag, sailed in quest of her, and
> last
> Friday morning saw her off Wicklow Head; the privateer (a cutter of 22
> guns,
> six and nine pounders) immediately on seeing the frigate, bore away,
> firing at
> times some of her stern chase guns, which however did no damage worth
> mentioning to the Stag, who in return plied her bow chase which killed
> four men on
> board the cutter, one of whom unformtunately was a ransomer. At last,
> getting
> within pistol shot, the cutter struck and Saturday arrived in our bay.
> Sunday
> morning a party of the Highland regiment and detachments from several of
> the
> Volunteer corps, brought the prisoners to the number of ninety-eight to
> town, and
> all but seven (who being foreigners were sent to the prison in the Lots)
> were
> lodged in Newgate as traitors, being natives of his Majesty's dominions. -
> There were six ransomers on board the prize, beside the one who
> unfortunately lost
> his life. The privateer was called the Anti-Briton and was fitted out at
> Dunkirk.
>
> 1782, 8-11 January page 2
> Last night about eight o'clock, The Town Major and one of the King's
> messengers accompanied by a troop of horse conducted to the New Prison,
> Capatain
> Kelly, commander of the Anti-Briton, privateer that was taken on Friday
> morning by
> the Stag Frigate; also his second captain named Kenny, two lieutenants and
> two
> foremast men; all of whom are supposed to be Irishmen;- Captain Kelly is
> well
> known in Dublin and about three years ago got three chests of arms from
> the
> city, under pretence of commanding a letter of marque to New York, and as
> a
> cruizer against our combined enemies. The return he has made seems not to
> have
> been very grateful. He sailed lately from Dunkirk and captured six vessels
> in
> our channel.
>
> 1782 11 - ? January page 3
> Column 2
>
> "Kelly and his officers ...."
>
> John Moulden
>

On 12/21/03, John Garst wrote:> >>Like "WHB," "D"/"DG" tunes invariably open on the 5th degree of the
>>> scale and descend to the third at the end of the first blues phrase.
>>
>> This may be our problem. :-) I would say this is pretty typical
>> of Delia. It's not the way *I* know White House Blues. Putting
>> both songs in D, I find these notes:
>>
> > Delia:  a a a b D D b a a a b f#
>> WHB:    a a a b a a a a f#
> >
>> So either we're talking about different White House Blues
>> tunes or you're nuts.
>>
>> Or both. :-) But I suspect the former, because your
>> description fits "Delia" and not "White House Blues."
>> --
>> Bob Waltz
>
>Is "D" higher or lower than "b"?Higher.>You don't put words to your notes, so it's a bit hard to tell what you are
>comparing, but I will assume that these are both first phrases, despite
>the discrepancy in the number of notes (reflecting, I assume, different
>numbers of syllables).Correct on both counts>If this is so, then your WHB is just like mine.  I
>note also that your Delia shares the first four notes with your WHB and
>ends on the 3rd, like WHB.  What more do you need to claim that they are
>the "same"?Well, how about having at least  half the notes in the phrase
be the same?Doing my best to put in measure marks (and I'm doing this part
without an instrument in my hand, which makes things much harder),
I get:> > Delia:      a a | a b | D   | D b | a a | a b | f#
> > WHB:    a | a a | b a | a a | a f#In addition, WHB has a different final line, and the Bahamas
versions of "Delia" have a chorus.Thus timing and melody are both different. Substantially, in
my book. If it's not substantial in yours, well, this is the
problem we've had before about defining what is "the same"
melody. Same "shape," maybe, but not the same melody.And, FWIW, I remember looking at at least one "Delia" that
didn't fit that pattern. Can't remember where, and it wasn't
a recording. Hence my initial caveat. I though it was the
*other* that matches WHB.If the two are considered the same, FWIW, I'd consider the
"Delia" above to be the source. The leap to the high tonic
can be rather difficult if the song is pitched in D (which
is a nice place for it on the guitar, if it matters). So
it might get levelled down.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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