Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Ed, I have mailed you a copy of "Menagerie" along with the Brown University
library catalog entry for the book the copy came from.    Mr. Greenhaus did
you want a copy of "Menagerie"?Sincerely,John Mehlberg
~
PS  I have also included a 6pg bawdy typed manuscript found among WWII
(1944-46) hand written letters.Of "Chastity Belt", I have been able to correspond with someone who learned
it in 1955/56 at a RAF party.   This lends some evidence to RAF currency.
Are there any military song specialists in England?----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v
To: [unmask]
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: Wild West ShowHi-
and thanxdick greenhaus
28 Powell Street
Greenwich, CT 06831
USASteve Gardham wrote:>Ed & Dick
>Be glad to send photocopies but I need your addresses.
>
>The Royal Wild Beast Show
>Written by Frank W. Green,  composed by Alfred Lee
>
>1.Come stand aside, good people all, and hear what I've to say.
>  But let the little dears come up, what's going for to pay...
>  At all the courts in Europe we are reckon'd quite the go,...
>  Then pay your sixpences and see the Royal Wild Beast Show.
>
>Chorus
>  The camomiles, the crocodiles, and all that you could wish,...
>  The mice and rats, and tabby-cats, and other kinds of fish...
>  A dozen sphinxes, upside down, and standing in a row...
>  It's only sixpence each to see the Royal Wild Beast Show.
>
>2.The first one is the kangaroo, you'll know him by his hump;
>  The next's the hippopotamus, you ought to see him jump;
>  The third's the alligator, and he's such a one to crow --
>  He wakes us ev'ry morning in the Royal WBS
>
>3.That pretty thing's the oozley bird, th other one's his aunt;
>  The third we call the pelican, the next the pelican't;
>  The other one's the solon goose, you mustn't call out bo!
>  Or you will hurt his feelings in the RWBS.
>
>4.The donkey i the corner with the tiger on his arm,
>  Comes from Assyria, where once his father kept a farm;
>  That billy goat that's dressed in pink and walking rather slow,
>  Is very hornimental in the RWBS.
>
>5.The tortoise, famous for his speed, unequalled by the horse;
>  The parrot, too, who talks in polly-syllables, of course;
>  The raging elephants that roar when stormy winds do blow
>  are also represented in the RWBS
>
>6.The next one is a mighty ape, indeed I tell you true,
>  It's only natural he should go "walking in the zoo";
>  Our stock of monkeys, you'll observe, at present is but low,
>  They are so plentiful outside the RWBS
>
>7.The last's the boa constrictor, who eats all he finds about--
>  Why, who's been fool enough to let the nasty critter out?
>  He's somewhere underneath the chairs, hi! mind your legs, hullo
>  He's very good at clearing out the RWBS.
>
>The key is Bb and it's in 6/8.
>
> Verse 2 reminds me somewhat of a song we call The Dogger Bank or The
>Grimsby Fishermen a seaman's parody on The Knickerbocker Line etc.
>
>The style in some verses, 7 for instance, is reminiscent of The Wild West
>Show delivery.
>I also have a copy of the original sheet music cover but without the music
>This version comes from a music book called
>The Royal Volume---The Queen's Minstrels, The Prince of Wales's,  The
>United Christy's---73 new songs with choruses and pianoforte
>accompaniments .
>I have about half a dozen of these old minstrel volumes from the mid 19thc
>Steve G.
>
>
>

At 03:30 PM 10/11/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>Blues fans may like to know that the first of a two part programme on
>Mississippi Delta blues is being broadcast on BBC Radio 3 tomorrow, Sunday
>12th at 21-30 hrs, British Summer Time. It should also be receivable on
>the Radio 3 website. The programme is called The Room Where the Blues was
>Born, the narrator is Marybeth Hamilton and it features several blues
>authorities including Pete Whelan and Dick Spottswood. Should be good.
>Apologies for the late notification, but I have only just spotted the item
>in the Radio Times.I've just been told that Part 2, in which I play appear, will be the next
Sunday, October 19, 1530 Chicago time. Alas, I'll be at a bookfair and
won't be able to hear it, but they've said they will send me a copy later.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

I was trying to remember where I had learned the version of the Derby
Ram with the chorus:
³Indeed my lads, itıs true my lads, I never was known to lie,
And if youıd a-been in Derby youıd haı seen the same as I.²Somewhere on the English folk scene of the early 1960s.I found an Australian text, Dalby Ram, with that chorus (associated
with A.L. Lloyd). He also recorded a version on his English Drinking
Songs (now a Topic CD but I donıt have it). Could that be the one?Then it got interesting. James Reeves (Idiom of the People) gives a
version, with the ³Indeed Tis True² chorus, collected by Sharp from
Sister Emma. This version is not in the Maud Karpeles ³Cecil Sharpıs
Collection² however. That has 3 versions, all with other, different
choruses, and a note that two other tunes were collected (and no
mention of texts). Sister Emma being one of Sharpıs major sources, I
was surprised not to find her version in the book, and wonder if
something is awry in the attributions.I get very useful information checking the references in The Erotic
Muse. I am sent back to Broadwood & Maitlandıs English County Songs,
where I find two versions with my chorus, one of which, a
Northumbrian version, is close enough to be the source for what I
remember, with a bit of a rhythm change and a few new verses. But I
still canıt remember who sang it.Any further light would be welcome.John Roberts

----- Original Message -----
From: John Roberts <[unmask]><<I was trying to remember where I had learned the version of the Derby
Ram with the chorus:
³Indeed my lads, itıs true my lads, I never was known to lie,
And if youıd a-been in Derby youıd haı seen the same as I.²Somewhere on the English folk scene of the early 1960s.I found an Australian text, Dalby Ram, with that chorus (associated
with A.L. Lloyd). He also recorded a version on his English Drinking
Songs (now a Topic CD but I donıt have it). Could that be the one?>>Yes.Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dear John,At a guess I would say that maybe it was Keith Kendrick. It's one of his
standards. He has a recording of it, too. Also a website which you can
find by using his name, rather than the phunny Northern English
fonetics.AndyJohn Roberts wrote:
>
> I was trying to remember where I had learned the version of the Derby
> Ram with the chorus:
> ³Indeed my lads, itıs true my lads, I never was known to lie,
> And if youıd a-been in Derby youıd haı seen the same as I.²
>
> Somewhere on the English folk scene of the early 1960s.
>
> I found an Australian text, Dalby Ram, with that chorus (associated
> with A.L. Lloyd). He also recorded a version on his English Drinking
> Songs (now a Topic CD but I donıt have it). Could that be the one?
>
> Then it got interesting. James Reeves (Idiom of the People) gives a
> version, with the ³Indeed Tis True² chorus, collected by Sharp from
> Sister Emma. This version is not in the Maud Karpeles ³Cecil Sharpıs
> Collection² however. That has 3 versions, all with other, different
> choruses, and a note that two other tunes were collected (and no
> mention of texts). Sister Emma being one of Sharpıs major sources, I
> was surprised not to find her version in the book, and wonder if
> something is awry in the attributions.
>
> I get very useful information checking the references in The Erotic
> Muse. I am sent back to Broadwood & Maitlandıs English County Songs,
> where I find two versions with my chorus, one of which, a
> Northumbrian version, is close enough to be the source for what I
> remember, with a bit of a rhythm change and a few new verses. But I
> still canıt remember who sang it.
>
> Any further light would be welcome.
>
> John Roberts

Dyer-Bennett sang it that way. Late 49s or early 50s.dick greenhaus

>
> From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/10/11 Sat PM 11:57:48 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Derby Ram
>
> I was trying to remember where I had learned the version of the
Derby
> Ram with the chorus:
> 3Indeed my lads, it1s true my lads, I never was known to lie,
> And if you1d a-been in Derby you1d ha1 seen the same as I.2
>
> Somewhere on the English folk scene of the early 1960s.
>
That's the chorus I use, from Lloyd, English Drinking Songs -  TomTom Hall  --  Master Wordworker
and Intellectual Handyman

When I was a small boy in Tulsa, Oklahoma (80 years ago)!  most of my friends
knew a "naughty" song (one that made the hearer think of naughty words but
didn't actually say them) about the "Jarvis Goat".  One verse and chorus went:    "There was a goat in Jarvis Town; his horns were made of brass.
    One grew out of the top of his head and the other grew out of his
        Hokey pokey, diddledee okie, maybe you think I lie;
        But if you go down to Jarvis Town you'll see the same as I."There is also a well-known and closely related Shanty song  about the Darby
Ram.  I learned it from several compadres (who had adapted it  from a book) in
the University of California Division of War Research -- studying and writing
about pro- and anti-submarine warfare--in the 1940s. A few random verses from
an undependable memory are:    As I went down to Darby, 'twas on a market day,
    I met the biggest ram, sir, that ever was fed upon hay.
        That's a lie, that's a lie,
        That's a lie, a lie, a lie!    One dark and stormy night, when the wind did howl and squeal,
    He borrowed a set of oilskins and stood my trick at the wheel!
        That's a lie, that's a lie,
        That's a lie, a lie, a lie!    This wonderful old ram, sir, was playful as a kid.
    He swallowed the Captain's spyglass along with the Bo'sun's fid.
        That's a lie, that's a lie,
        That's a lie, a lie, a lie!The crew of the  good old Scripps ships are handsome, strong and brave;
The finest crew of sailors that ever went out on the wave.
        That's a lie, that's a lie,
        That's a lie, a lie, a lie!Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

Apropos of nothing but the Darby Ram - I remembered that I had once seen - but did not retain - a 19th century newspaper clipping that said that The Darby Ram was George Washington's favorite song.  Inspired by John's question, I did a Google search and found the following on a site dealing with the history of Hartford CT -  As Ellsworth S. Grant wrote in "The Miracle of Connecticut," Washington rode through Hartford and Windsor on Oct. 21, 1789, during a "triumphant tour of New England." He had just been elected president. In Windsor, he went to the home of Oliver Ellsworth, an old friend from Revolutionary War days. According to Grant, "Washington spent part of his visit rocking the infant Ellsworth twins in their cradle and singing to them a popular song of the time, the 'Darby Ram.'"  I also found an email on an obscure list serv where the writer stated "Few people know that the Darby Ram was George Wasington's favorite song." The writer did not indicate any source of authority for that statement.The continuity with the past represented by folk songs has always been singularly attractive to me. The thought that modern day singers can experience the same joy as George Washington in singing a song provides a link that 1000 pages of written history can not.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 10/12/2003 12:57:48 AM >>>
I was trying to remember where I had learned the version of the Derby
Ram with the chorus:
³Indeed my lads, itıs true my lads, I never was known to lie,
And if youıd a-been in Derby youıd haı seen the same as I.²Somewhere on the English folk scene of the early 1960s.I found an Australian text, Dalby Ram, with that chorus (associated
with A.L. Lloyd). He also recorded a version on his English Drinking
Songs (now a Topic CD but I donıt have it). Could that be the one?Then it got interesting. James Reeves (Idiom of the People) gives a
version, with the ³Indeed Tis True² chorus, collected by Sharp from
Sister Emma. This version is not in the Maud Karpeles ³Cecil Sharpıs
Collection² however. That has 3 versions, all with other, different
choruses, and a note that two other tunes were collected (and no
mention of texts). Sister Emma being one of Sharpıs major sources, I
was surprised not to find her version in the book, and wonder if
something is awry in the attributions.I get very useful information checking the references in The Erotic
Muse. I am sent back to Broadwood & Maitlandıs English County Songs,
where I find two versions with my chorus, one of which, a
Northumbrian version, is close enough to be the source for what I
remember, with a bit of a rhythm change and a few new verses. But I
still canıt remember who sang it.Any further light would be welcome.John Roberts

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]><<³Indeed my lads, itıs true my lads, I never was known to lie,
And if youıd a-been in Derby youıd haı seen the same as I.²
This chorus was used by Richard Dyer-Bennet in the late '50's on his Keynote
78 recording from the album Richard Dyer-Bennet, Lute Singer, Ballads and
FolK
Songs  Keynote Recordings Album No. 108-2 K 517 B along with the Linconshire
Poacher on the same side and the Golden Vanity on the A side.  I believe
Dyer
Bennet later recorded it again on his multi-volume series of LP's but I
don't
have access to any of those so I can't be certain.>>I've looked, and Dyer-Bennet's lyrics on "Lute Singer" are slightly
different:"And indeed, sir, it's true, sir, I never was given to lie
And if you'd been to Derby, sir, you'd have seen it the same as I"Those lyrics are also on the version recorded on the Mercury LP "Olden
Ballads", which he shares with Tom Glazer and which, come to think of it,
sounds very much to me like a reissue of the Keynote set. I couldn't find it
on the Dyer-Bennet Records LPs, but there are a couple of those I don't
have.However, the version John Roberts is remembering is, in fact, from A. L.
Lloyd's "English Drinking Songs" on Topic, just reissued. I'll play it on
the air this afternoon in honor of this discussion. (www.kdhx.org from 2-4
pm central daylight time, 1900-2100 GMT, should anyone care to tune in. Now
that the pledge drive is over and we have time for long songs again, I'll
also be playing the Cas Wallin recording of "Mattie Groves".)Peace,
Paul

That's the version I've been singing since the 1960s. No idea where I got it
from. But I did live in Nottingham & Derby around that time.
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Roberts" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2003 5:57 AM
Subject: Derby RamI was trying to remember where I had learned the version of the Derby
Ram with the chorus:
3Indeed my lads, it9s true my lads, I never was known to lie,
And if you9d a-been in Derby you9d ha9 seen the same as I.2Somewhere on the English folk scene of the early 1960s.I found an Australian text, Dalby Ram, with that chorus (associated
with A.L. Lloyd). He also recorded a version on his English Drinking
Songs (now a Topic CD but I don9t have it). Could that be the one?Then it got interesting. James Reeves (Idiom of the People) gives a
version, with the 3Indeed Tis True2 chorus, collected by Sharp from
Sister Emma. This version is not in the Maud Karpeles 3Cecil Sharp9s
Collection2 however. That has 3 versions, all with other, different
choruses, and a note that two other tunes were collected (and no
mention of texts). Sister Emma being one of Sharp9s major sources, I
was surprised not to find her version in the book, and wonder if
something is awry in the attributions.I get very useful information checking the references in The Erotic
Muse. I am sent back to Broadwood & Maitland9s English County Songs,
where I find two versions with my chorus, one of which, a
Northumbrian version, is close enough to be the source for what I
remember, with a bit of a rhythm change and a few new verses. But I
still can9t remember who sang it.Any further light would be welcome.John Roberts

I'm sure this was one of the choruses used by the Watersons in the early
60s. They recorded 2 different versions round about the same time and until
I came across my own grandmother's version that was the version I sang.
SteveG.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 12 October 2003 07:55
Subject: Re: [BALLAD-L] Derby Ram----- Original Message -----
From: John Roberts <[unmask]><<I was trying to remember where I had learned the version of the Derby
Ram with the chorus:
"Indeed my lads, itıs true my lads, I never was known to lie,
And if you'd a-been in Derby youıd haı seen the same as I."Somewhere on the English folk scene of the early 1960s.I found an Australian text, Dalby Ram, with that chorus (associated
with A.L. Lloyd). He also recorded a version on his English Drinking
Songs (now a Topic CD but I donıt have it). Could that be the one?There's another aspect to the transmission of that particular version of the song. Anyone who
watched UK children's television in the 1960s is likely quite often to have heard Wally Whyton
singing it, accompanied by an amusing animated sequence. I forget the name of the programme, but it
regularly featured such songs, and I'd guess that a good few people over here still have them
lurking at the backs of their minds for that reason (I am one).So far as Sister Emma's version is concerned, I don't think there's an error of attribution; I
should think that it didn't appear in Karpeles because it was the only "Ram" text Sharp got in
England for which no tune had been noted. She doesn't seem to refer, as a rule, to additional texts
not printed unless they have tunes.Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 29/09/03

Indeed I was known to lie. Delete previous message. I've just checked my
albums and can only find the one Waterson version presumably the one with
the Laylum chorus. What may have confused me is we used to sing the Indeed
my lads chorus when we performed the tup play at the Hull Bluebell Folk
Club and Mike Waterson invariably led the verses. Dave Eyre, help us out
with this one.
SteveG

I forgot to add that this version can be found in English County Songs,
Broadwood, p45 and it's from Northumberland.
SteveG

John,
I wouldn't presume to use the word expert, but I have a card index of
forces songs mainly from the two World Wars, plus a bawdy song index, and I
have my own collections of both types of material.
SteveG

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]><<I'm sure this was one of the choruses used by the Watersons in the early
60s. They recorded 2 different versions round about the same time and until
I came across my own grandmother's version that was the version I sang.>>The Watersons recording with the widest circulation, "Frost and Fire", uses
:"Lay-lum, lay-lum
Pitiful lay-lum-lay"as the chorus to "The Derby Ram". Was the other version on a compilation
album with other artists?Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Thank God, I thought Ed was in the hospital this week. Glad that Ballad-L isn't turning into a prayer chain!Beth Brooks
>>> [unmask] 10/13/03 18:13 PM >>>
Steve:Ed Cray lives at:
647 Raymond Ave.
No. 2
Santa Monica, Ca. 90405Thank you,Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, October 11, 2003 1:28 am
Subject: Ed> Hi!
> I still need your address to send you the Royal Wild West Show info. I've
> already sent Dick his.
> Steve G.
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Beth:You are sweet and I am well.Fondly,Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, October 13, 2003 6:35 pm
Subject: Re: Ed> Thank God, I thought Ed was in the hospital this week. Glad that Ballad-L
> isn't turning into a prayer chain!
>
> Beth Brooks
> >>> [unmask] 10/13/03 18:13 PM >>>
> Steve:
>
> Ed Cray lives at:
> 647 Raymond Ave.
> No. 2
> Santa Monica, Ca. 90405
>
> Thank you,
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
> Date: Saturday, October 11, 2003 1:28 am
> Subject: Ed
>
> > Hi!
> > I still need your address to send you the Royal Wild West Show info. I've
> > already sent Dick his.
> > Steve G.
> >
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred McCormick" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 14 October 2003 10:32
Subject: [BALLAD-L] Delta Blues> A few days ago I notified this board of an important BBC radio programme on
> Mississippi Delta blues. Since the programme seemed to be an unmissable, I set
> my computer up to record it.
>
> For some mysterious reason, however, the piece of software which I use to
> copy analogue sound to computer, malfunctioned and gave me 45 minutes of nothing.
>
> The programme is important to me for two reasons, partly because it was
> concerned with a major aspect of the blues, and partly because it appears to deal
> with the reification of music into styles and types.
>
> Since the BBC don't seem to have put this programme on their website, I
> wonder if there is any kind soul out there, who might be willing to make a copy for
> me. Naturally, such magnanimity would be warmly reciprocated.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick.The programme is now available online, but under its general series title, "Sunday Feature":http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio3_aod.shtml?sundayfeatPresumably it will remain available until next Sunday's broadcast.Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 29/09/03

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

For all who answered my Derby Ram question, here's what I found.The one I was looking for was indeed Bert Lloyd's version, though I
haven't heard the "English Drinking Songs" recording yet. Fred
reminded me it was on the Lomax Xmas radio broadcast CD (thanks for
that, I think). That's a fairly horrible recording, and the
accompanying guitarist forces him into a slightly different minor
mode, though it may not be all the guitarist's fault. Lloyd recorded
a similar version (with slightly Ozzified lyrics) on The Old Bush
Songs, an Australian CD which I found in my collection, with songs
from 2 old Topic LPs. This cut had a more civilized accompaniment
featuring Peggy Seeger and Ralph Rinzler.Conflicting reports on what the Ian Campbell Group sang. Some
correspondents said it was this version, others said theirs had the
"It's a Lie" chorus. I used to own the LP, and likely heard them
perform it. I would occasionally get up to Digbeth Civic Hall from
Kidderminster where I grew up. And if they did sing it that way, it's
likely that members of my local folk club learned it that way too,
which would have got it deep into the memory banks. I shall be able
to check this out soon.The Watersons did indeed record two versions, one on Frost and Fire
(with the Pitiful Laylum chorus) and one on Yorkshire Garland ("The
Yorkshire Tup" with it's Blow Ye Winds in the Morning-type chorus). I
had forgotten the second one.Andy, I didn't know Keith Kendrick by name until much later - I knew
of some of the groups he was in, particularly the Druids, but knew
few of the members by name. He must have been singing at least one
version. And Years ago I had learned a version from Roy Harris (the
"Hey Ringle Dangle" chorus) which he recorded with the Nottingham
Folk Club.Malcolm, thanks for pointing out to me that Cecil Sharp sometimes
collected texts without tunes. I had never opened my mind enough to
consider that possibility, blindly assuming it was _always_ the other
way around.I am convinced enough, for my own satisfaction at least, that the
Northumberland variant printed by Lucy Broadwood in English County
Songs was Lloyd's source. The tune is close enough, once you move it
from 3-time into 4, and three of the four verses (except for the "Now
my song is over" verse) that he sings on the Xmas broadcast are from
that version.Many thanks to all who responded. Perhaps I knew too many versions
already, but I now have even more at my fingertips, some of which
belong more in the rugby clubs. If _I_ sang them for the Boy Scouts,
I'd probably be arrested.John Roberts

In the version given in Sing Out! magazine  in the 60s, it was also noted that it was Washington's favorite song. Another tune I can't do with my elementary students, this version talks about using the ram's eyes for bloody balls to kick around the streets and ends with "the man who owned this rams, sir, he was considerable rich/but the man who sang this song was a lyin' son of a bitch". And if you don't believe me, and think I tell a lie, just you go down to Darby and you'll see the same as I.Version available in the Sing Out! reprint book, which I don't have handy.Beth Brooks

Hi!        Since we just celebrated Columbus and just discussed Cristofo
Columbo, there is one lot on Ebay which might be of interest.        2564829595 - 4 items inc. sheet music for Christofo Columbo
Thought the World was Round-O, 1924, $1.99 (ends Oct-19-03 21:12:24 PDT)        Now on the usual items :-)        SONGSTERS        3558374988 - The Songster's Museum, 1829, $39.99 (ends Oct-17-03
21:23:12 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3558074948 - THE BOOK OF SCOTTISH SONGS by ?, ?, 1.40 GBP (ends
Oct-16-03 13:38:13 PDT)        3558085049 - Folk Songs and Ballads of Scotland by MacColl,
1965, $9.99 (ends Oct-16-03 14:16:16 PDT)        3558114315 - ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND
FROM THE HELEN HARTNESS FLANDERS BALLAD COLLECTION, 4 volumes,
1960-1965, $150 (ends Oct-16-03 18:05:44 PDT)        2564130064 - The Lonely Mountaineer's Album of Mountain Ballads
& Cowboy Songs. 1934, $5 (ends Oct-16-03 18:29:27 PDT)        3558223940 - PEOPLE BEHAVE LIKE BALLADS by Coffin, 1946, $15
(ends Oct-17-03 07:48:20 PDT)        3558246832 - Negro Folk music in the U.S by courlander, 1963,
$7.50 (ends Oct-17-03 09:48:12 PDT)        3558250938 - Irish Songs Poems Stories, 1919, $15 (ends
Oct-17-03 10:07:51 PDT)        3558258689 - The Idiom of the People by Reeves, 1961, 1.99 GBP
(ends Oct-17-03 10:40:51 PDT)        3558297617 - Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border by Scott, 2
volumes of 3, 1803, $8.99 (ends Oct-17-03 13:09:10 PDT)        2565292872 - Asher Sizemore and Little Jimmie's Favorite Songs,
1934, $2.99 (ends Oct-17-03 19:20:10 PDT)        3247133295 - Seventy Negro Spirituals For Low Voice, 1926, $15
(ends Oct-17-03 22:13:19 PDT)        3558453044 - American Sea Songs and Chanteys, 1948, $4 (ends
Oct-18-03 09:29:50 PDT)        3557917759 - Australian Bush Ballads by Stewart & Keesing, 1962,
$20 AU (ends Oct-19-03 02:49:42 PDT)        2564583533 - A Touch on the Times - Songs of Social Change by
Palmer, 1974, 1.99 GBP (ends Oct-19-03 04:26:25 PDT)        3557029645 - Brown Collection of NORTH CAROLINA FOLKLORE by
White, 7 volumes, 1952-1964, $81 (ends Oct-19-03 12:00:00 PDT)        3558792839 - IRELAND SINGS~AN ANTHOLOGY OF MODERN & ANCIENT
IRISH SONGS AND BALLADS by Behan, 1965, $8 (ends Oct-19-03 12:48:46 PDT)        3631141376 - YESTERDAY'S NEWS: SEVENTEENTH-CENTURY ENGLISH
BROADSIDES AND NEWSBOOKS, 1996, $2.79 (ends Oct-19-03 17:30:00 PDT)        2565268788 - Folk Songs of the Kentucky Mountains by McGill,
1917, $9.99 (ends Oct-19-03 17:38:09 PDT)        3558886455 - A Pepysian Garland.. Black-Letter Broadside Ballads
of the Years 1595-1639 .. From the Collection of Samuel Pepys... by
Rollins, 1922, $22 (ends Oct-19-03 18:24:54 PDT)        3354123516 - Carson J. Robison Songs Together with Hill Country
Ballads and Old Time Songs, 1936, $6.99 (ends Oct-19-03 20:00:00 PDT)        3559032263 - Irish Street Ballads by O'Lochlainn, 1960, $20
(ends Oct-20-03 10:39:55 PDT)        2564291193 - Kerr's Cornkisters (Bothy Ballads), 4.99 GBP (ends
Oct-20-03 13:51:20 PDT)        3559183701 - SOME BALLAD FOLKS by Burton, 1978, $9.95 (ends
Oct-20-03 21:18:25 PDT)        3559294317 - The Urban Experience and Folk Tradition by Paredes
& Stekert, 1971, $5.99 (ends Oct-21-03 11:16:06 PDT)        3559301498 - ORIGINAL TALES AND BALLADS IN THE YORKSHIRE DIALECT
by Malham-Dembleby, 1912, 4.99 GBP (ends Oct-21-03 11:36:18 PDT)        3558486815 - The British Minstrel: A Selection of Ballads,
Ancient and Modern, volumes 1 & 2 in 1 book, 1821, $149.99 (ends
Oct-21-03 11:40:26 PDT)        3247765889 - NEGRO SONGS FROM ALABAMA by Courlander, 1963, $9.99
(ends Oct-21-03 11:49:47 PDT)        2196516697 - SEA SONGS, SHIPS AND SHANTIES by Whall, 1912, $20
(ends Oct-22-03 10:00:19 PDT)        3558748683 - Religious Folksongs of the Negro, 1927 reprint, $1
w/reserve (ends Oct-22-03 11:13:00 PDT)        3559508796 - Mormon Songs From the Rocky Mountains by Cheney,
1968, $9.99 (ends Oct-22-03 10:07:36 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        2564970833 - Mississippi John Hurt, 1963 Original Piedmont
Recordings - Folksongs and Blues, LP recording, $9.95 (ends Oct-20-03
13:01:53 PDT)        2565320328 - Close to Home Old Time Music from Mike Seeger's
Collection 1952-1967, 1997, CD, $5 (ends Oct-21-03 22:14:19 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi folks:In looking at William Walker's "Southern Harmony", I find reference to an
earlier book, "Baptist Harmony", possibly published 1834. Anyone know about
it? Any copies in libraries?Peace,
Paul"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

Many years ago I learned from an American recording by Ed McCurdy a rather
jovial Robin Hood ballad about Gambling Gold, a battling pedlar who turns
out to be Robin Hood's cousin.
A short item in today's Herald newspaper suggests that the Robin Hood myth
derives from the old romance of Gamelyn.
In McEdward Leach's The Ballad Book, pub 1955,  he gives a version of The
Bold Pedlar and Robin Hood very close to McCurdy's text, "straight out of
oral tradition in Surrey", "Text, Dixon p.71." This is J H Dixon, Ancient
Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England, London, 1846.
The text is so close to McCurdy's that it seems very likely indeed he or
someone else took and set it.
I have two queries / observations.
First, McCurdy as I recall sang Gambling Gold rather than Gamble Gold. This
brings the name closer to Gamelyn. Does it give him the same first name as
Robin Hood had in some versions - Gamelyn Gold and Gamelyn #?
Second, others on this list will know the recording. What opinions are
there on the bouncing [6/8?] minor tune he used? I do not have an easy way
of rendering it here, having always been to busy / lazy to learn the
various systems propounded on the list, though I keep all the emails in
hopes of getting to it some day.EwanEwan McVicar,
84 High Street
Linlithgow,
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

Hi, Ewan
You would do well here to consult a copy of Child vol 3 Number 128 Robin
Hood Newly Revived. The detailed notes relate both RH ballads to the
Gamelyn tale.
SteveG.

Dear Scots Scholars,
It has occurred to me that there are a reasonable number of Scots who
subscribe to the Ballad List and one of you might just be in a better
position geographically than I am to help with a piece of current research.
For almost a year now I have been trying to find an original Hazelgreen for
the ballad John of Hazelgreen. I am fully aware of Scott's Hazeldean in
Northumberland but not at all convinced; all trad versions are very definite
about HazelGREEN.
In Galloway a couple of miles west of Newton Stewart lies the village of
Hazley Green, perfectly placed in the 'South Countree'. It would help my
researches if I had contact with someone in Galloway not a million miles
from Hazley Green.
Steve

On reflection the McCurdy tune is a simpler less interesting close relative
of another ballad version I recall from another 1950s recording I never
owned, but borrowed long enough to learn songs from.
This time an LP [10 inch] I think on Topic by Peggy Seegar. The ballad this
time was the Wife Of Usher's Well, a thrilling version which I still sing
on occasion.The first verse isThere was a lady and a lady fair
Children she had three
She sent them away to the north country
To learn their grammaryEwanEwan McVicar,
84 High Street
Linlithgow,
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

Didn't Dave Van Ronk record that version on "Inside Dave Van Ronk," some
time in the sixties?Sadie DamascusAt 10/21/2003, you wrote:
>On reflection the McCurdy tune is a simpler less interesting close relative
>of another ballad version I recall from another 1950s recording I never
>owned, but borrowed long enough to learn songs from.
>This time an LP [10 inch] I think on Topic by Peggy Seegar. The ballad this
>time was the Wife Of Usher's Well, a thrilling version which I still sing
>on occasion.
>
>The first verse is
>
>There was a lady and a lady fair
>Children she had three
>She sent them away to the north country
>To learn their grammary
>
>Ewan
>
>Ewan McVicar,
>84 High Street
>Linlithgow,
>West Lothian
>Scotland
>EH49 7AQ
>
>tel 01506 847935

Is anyone acquainted with a British "hound dog" song?Many of you will know They Gotta Quit Kickin' My Dawg Aroun'" (copyright 1912), still played and recorded by ragtime, folk, and bluegrass groups.  Claims have been made that it is derived from an old British ballad.  Some time ago, I came across a reference to a collection in which the "original" was said to appear.  (Unfortunately, I don't have that collection title with me at the moment and don't recall it.)  When I borrowed the book through ILL, I found that it dealt only with Robin Hood.  One song mentioned a hunting dog, but that was as close as it got.Any ideas?Sue Attalla

I feel sure when I was working in the Borders there was a Hazel Dean near to
Newton St. Boswells (Scotland not Northumberland) but I will need an OS map
to look again.Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gardham" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 7:45 PM
Subject: Hazelgreen> Dear Scots Scholars,
> It has occurred to me that there are a reasonable number of Scots who
> subscribe to the Ballad List and one of you might just be in a better
> position geographically than I am to help with a piece of current
research.
> For almost a year now I have been trying to find an original Hazelgreen
for
> the ballad John of Hazelgreen. I am fully aware of Scott's Hazeldean in
> Northumberland but not at all convinced; all trad versions are very
definite
> about HazelGREEN.
> In Galloway a couple of miles west of Newton Stewart lies the village of
> Hazley Green, perfectly placed in the 'South Countree'. It would help my
> researches if I had contact with someone in Galloway not a million miles
> from Hazley Green.
> Steve
>

Having been away for a few days, I haven't read earlier messsages about
Robin Hood and the Pedlar tune, but will point out that I learned the song
from Helen Hartness Flanders Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New
England as sung by Belle Richards of Colebrook NH., taught it to many kids,
and recorded it on Ballads Thrice Twisted.Margaret MacArthur
Box 15 MacArthur Road
Marlboro VT 05344
802/254/2549
[unmask]
http://www.margaretmacarthur.com
from the heart of the Green Mountains

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi,I'm not familiar with the song. Post some of the lyrics and we might be
able to help. Off the top all I can think of is Poor Dog Tray or Old Dog
Tray, or perhaps a hunting song as these are often about particular hounds.
SteveG.

Hi,Dave, This really feels funny when we're only a few miles apart,
communicating via Indiana, but what the heck! Where the hell's Newton St
Boswells anyway?
Steve.

----- Original Message -----
From: John Mehlberg <[unmask]><<MAX HUNTER field recordings from the 1960's:http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunterThe Cowell Collection & Lomax Southern States Collection can be searched
here:http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.htmlDoes anyone know of other online field recordings?>>There are other Library of Congress recordings posted on the American Memory
site, including field recordings from Florida and a folk festival in, I
believe, Georgia. Go to the main site (http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/) and
look for the list of collections. Select "Sound recordings" for audio files.
Interesting sheet music available too, and photographs from the Farm
Security Administration.Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

John:There are a handful of such sites, including on LOC the important Todd-Sonkin field recordings from California ca. 1940.  Some of the rugby sites also have tunes (mpegs or whatever) that play digital tones -- not field recordings to be sure, but close in that the singers enter the notes directly to the website.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Mehlberg <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:53 am
Subject: Online Field Recordings.> MAX HUNTER field recordings from the 1960's:
>
> http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/maxhunter
>
> The Cowell Collection & Lomax Southern States Collection can be searched here:
>
> http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html
>
> Does anyone know of other online field recordings?
>
> All the best.
>
> John Mehlberg
> ~
> Ed Cray if you search the Max Hunter collection for "bawdy" you will find
> Glenn Ohrlin's 1969 field recording and a bawdy "Darby Ram".

Hi!        Amid the falling leaves, I found the followin books :-)        SONGSTERS        3248176750 - I GUESS THAT WILL HOLD YOU FOR AWHILE SONGSTER,
1897, $4.99 (ends Oct-23-03 17:54:25 PDT)        3356585542 - G.O.P. SONGSTER, 1920?, $3 (ends Oct-26-03 19:59:02
PST)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3559728694 - The singing Englishman An introduction to folksong
by Lloyd, 1946, 5.50 GBP (ends Oct-23-03 11:26:48 PDT)        3559784734 - Tobacco in Song and Story by Bain, 1896, $10 (ends
Oct-23-03 15:12:48 PDT)        3559826918 - Heart Songs Dear to the American People, And by
Them Contributed in the Search for Treasured Songs Initiated by the
National Magazine. 1909, $11.50 (ends Oct-23-03 19:44:33 PDT)        2565781516 - THE LONELY MOUNTAINEERS Album of MOUNTAIN BALLADS
and COWBOY SONGS, $8.50 (ends Oct-23-03 21:04:45 PDT)        3559946120 - Songs from David Herd's Manuscripts by Hecht, 1904,
$39 (ends Oct-24-03 14:22:28 PDT)        3559948204 - NEGRO FOLK MUSIC U.S.A. by Courlander, 1963, $5.99
(ends Oct-24-03 14:37:52 PDT)        2565932676 - Folk Songs of Jamaica by Murray, $7.98 (ends
Oct-24-03 15:57:49 PDT)        3559376638 - WHERE IS SAINT GEORGE? Pagan Imagery in English
Folksong! by Stewart, 1988, $7.95 (ends Oct-24-03 16:54:58 PDT)        3559997022 - Mademoiselle From Armentieres, 1953, $14.99 (ends
Oct-24-03 21:27:28 PDT)        3560144892 - Proceedings of the Vermont Historical Society. New
Series nol nii, no 2. June, 1939, The Quest for Vermont Ballads by
Flanders, $4.50 (ends Oct-25-03 17:08:39 PDT)        3559569080 - Eighty English Folk Songs FROM THE SOUTHERN
APPALACHIANS by Sharp & Karpeles, 1968, $15.44 (ends Oct-26-03 09:00:00
PST) also 2566539834 - $9.98 (ends Oct-27-03 08:06:05 PST)        3560370930 - JOURNAL OF APPALACHIAN STUDIES, Spring 1996, $4.25
(ends Oct-26-03 13:11:34 PST)        2566365989 - Panhandler Songbook Folk Songs of S E Alaska, 1981,
$5 (ends Oct-26-03 13:21:43 PST)        3560397067 - TRADITIONAL BALLADS OF VIRGINIA by Davis, 1957, $4
(ends Oct-26-03 15:25:13 PST)        2566622391 - Louisiana French Folk Songs by Whitfield, 1939,
$19.99 w/reserve (ends Oct-27-03 13:37:15 PST)        2566654060 - Book of bound sheet music from the early 1800's,
$8.99 (ends Oct-27-03 16:15:03 PST)        3560458811 - BUCKAROO BALLADS by Barker, 1928, $26.89 w/reserve
(ends Oct-27-03 17:23:53 PST)        3560781684 - G.I.SONGS by Palmer, 1944, $9.95 (ends Oct-28-03
12:44:09 PST)        3560128142 - MINSTRELSY OF THE SCOTTISH BORDER by Scott, $14.99
(ends Oct-28-03 13:55:41 PST)        MISCELLANEOUS        2566578848 - Broadside (The Drunkard Reclaimed & The Dying
Child), 1830?, $9.95 (ends Oct-27-03 17:15:00 PST)        2198212487 - autograph of Cecil Sharp, $8.50 (ends Oct-28-03
05:41:16 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

The lyric clearly isn't British!  The verses were written by someone who added them to a song picked up from the Ozark Mountains of southwestern Missouri.  Some American listserv members will know the published song, "They Gotta Quit Kickin' My Dawg Aroun'."  That version tells the story of a man (or youth) from the country whose hound always tags along when he goes to town, only to become the victim of abuse--not at the hands, but at the feet--of the townsfolk. Here's the chorus:Ev'ry time I come to town,
The boys keep kickin' my dawg aroun';
Makes no dif'rence if he is a houn'.
They gotta quit kickin' my dawg aroun'.Among fiddlers I know, the tune is commonly compared to "Sally Anne" or "Sandy Land"/"Big Fat Taters in Sandy Land."The claims of British origin seem unlikely.   They appear some places where they are almost certainly a joke. Nonetheless, the source alluded to in my earlier posting differs from the others.  Tonight I've had a chance to go back to my notes and can say that the claim comes from Folk Song Index:  A Comprehensive Guide to the Florence E. Brunnings Collection (New York and London:  Garland Publishing, 1981).  The index connects the Hound Dog Song with John A. Long, Old English Ballads. That is the book that I borrowed through Interlibrary Loan, only to find Robin Hood.If you would like to see a copy of the 1912 sheet music, try the Lester S. Levy Collection, and search on the word "dawg":http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.htmlThanks for any help you can offer.  I'm not hopeful about discovering a British connection, but it would be fascinating.Sue Attalla---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Wed, 22 Oct 2003 12:15:17 -0500>Hi,I'm not familiar with the song. Post some of the lyrics and we might be
>able to help. Off the top all I can think of is Poor Dog Tray or Old Dog
>Tray, or perhaps a hunting song as these are often about particular hounds.
>SteveG.
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]><<The claims of British origin seem unlikely.   They appear some places
where they are almost certainly a joke. Nonetheless, the source alluded to
in my earlier posting differs from the others.  Tonight I've had a chance to
go back to my notes and can say that the claim comes from Folk Song Index:
A Comprehensive Guide to the Florence E. Brunnings Collection (New York and
London:  Garland Publishing, 1981).  The index connects the Hound Dog Song
with John A. Long, Old English Ballads. That is the book that I borrowed
through Interlibrary Loan, only to find Robin Hood.If you would like to see a copy of the 1912 sheet music, try the Lester S.
Levy Collection, and search on the word "dawg":http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.htmlThanks for any help you can offer.  I'm not hopeful about discovering a
British connection, but it would be fascinating.>>The Traditional Ballad Index offers no British connections, other than the
Roud link you discsuss. The first recording is, like the sheet music, from
1912, and is presumably taken directly from the sheet music. The artist,
Byron Harlan, was a popular and prolific singer, doing pop songs and
minstrel-show pieces. There's a later recording by Gid Tanner & his Skillet
Lickers.Peace,
Paul

A few comments.Russel Nye,  in The Unembarrassed Muse: The Popular Arts in America,
[New York, 1978, p. 314] connects the song to James Bland. Bland
performed in England for much of the latter portion of the 1800s before
returning to the US. Bland died in 1911 the same year that the American
Quartette/Byron G Harlan record was released [Victor 17065].

At 07:25 PM 10/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>3559946120 - Songs from David Herd's Manuscripts by Hecht, 1904,
>$39 (ends Oct-24-03 14:22:28 PDT)Does anyone know anything about this book?  What is in it?  What is its
relationship to the Herd book?Thanks.-- Bill McCarthy

Bill:This is a valuable book for the student of ballad collecting in the UK -- if only for the introduction.  In addition there are 184 pages of song texts, with 56 pages of notes/annotations/cross-references.And all handsomely printed on deckle-edged paper, I might add.If you have the two-volume Herd, you need this.  If you don't, this is still useful.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Bill McCarthy <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, October 23, 2003 5:55 am
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 10/22/03> At 07:25 PM 10/22/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >3559946120 - Songs from David Herd's Manuscripts by Hecht, 1904,
> >$39 (ends Oct-24-03 14:22:28 PDT)
>
> Does anyone know anything about this book?  What is in it?  What is its
> relationship to the Herd book?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -- Bill McCarthy
>

Had a good look at the Levy site. The words certainly don't ring any bells.
Could whoever linked it up with something British have been referring to
the tune? It certainly is quite a simple tune but I'm no sight reader.
SteveG

That's me: French challenged.(1) Ella Speed died in New Orleans in 1894 and became the subject and
title of a ballad that has survived, in English, to the present day.
"Ella Speed" has been most often recovered from East Texas.  Between
there and New Orleans lies Cajun country.  I've never heard of a
Cajun version of "Ella Speed," but it almost seems unlikely that
there wouldn't be one.  Can anyone help?(2) Same question for a much more famous ballad, "John Henry, the
Steel Driving Man."(3) A ballad as widely known as "John Henry" should stand a good
chance of having been translated into other languages at some point.
If a translation were made at an early stage of its career, it might
preserve information that has been lost in English versions.  Does
anyone know of "John Henry" in *any* language other than English?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Ran questions 1 and 2 past Jerry and Barry who own the Louisiana Music
Factory here in New Orleans. Neither could recall Creole or Cajun
versions. Checking with one or two other sources but if it is or was
available as a recording they would most likely have been aware of same.John Garst wrote:> That's me: French challenged.
>
> (1) Ella Speed died in New Orleans in 1894 and became the subject and
> title of a ballad that has survived, in English, to the present day.
> "Ella Speed" has been most often recovered from East Texas.  Between
> there and New Orleans lies Cajun country.  I've never heard of a
> Cajun version of "Ella Speed," but it almost seems unlikely that
> there wouldn't be one.  Can anyone help?
>
> (2) Same question for a much more famous ballad, "John Henry, the
> Steel Driving Man."
>
> (3) A ballad as widely known as "John Henry" should stand a good
> chance of having been translated into other languages at some point.
> If a translation were made at an early stage of its career, it might
> preserve information that has been lost in English versions.  Does
> anyone know of "John Henry" in *any* language other than English?
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Hello,
Off the tip of my head, I can only think of one ballad that has apparently
been translated wholesale from the English to (Canadian) French:  "Henry My Son,"
which I heard as "Honore' Mon Enfant":        Ou` c'te'tait hier au soir,
                Honore' mon enfant,
        Ou` c'te'tait hier au soir,
                Honore' mon enfant,
        J'ai e'te' voir les filles,
                Maman, faisez mon lit,
                        Car j'ai grand mal au coeur,
                        Je veux aller me coucher.        [Where were you last night,
                H. my son,
        I went to see the girls,
                Mama, make my bed,
                        For I am sick to my heart (actually, the idiom
                                means: I have a stomachache),
                        I want to lie down.]the ballad goes on to discuss what Honore' will leave to his relatives,
and ends:        Quoi donnerai-tu a ta fille,
                Honore' mon enfant,
        Quoi donnerai-tu a ta blonde,
                Honore' mon enfant?
        Un petit bout de corde
                Pour la pendre aupre`s d'un arbre,
                        Car elle l'a ben merite',
                        C'est elle qui m'a empoisonne'!        [What will you give your girl / blonde?
        A little piece of rope
                To hang her from a tree,
                        For she deserves it well,
                        It was she who poisoned me]I believe it was recorded by some folks from the Parisian folk club
Le Bourdon in Canada perhaps 20+ years ago, and brought back to
Paris, where I heard it.
        (I know it's not entirely in correct French, but that's what
I heard in the recording.)
        I haven't attempted to search further for other versions,
just sing it now and again, to try to keep it in memory a while.
        -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cal & Lani Herrmann" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 24 October 2003 01:05
Subject: Re: [BALLAD-L] French challenged> Hello,
> Off the tip of my head, I can only think of one ballad that has apparently
> been translated wholesale from the English to (Canadian) French:  "Henry My Son,"
> which I heard as "Honore' Mon Enfant":According to Gabriel Yacoub, this was based on a Quebecois fragment taught to him by a Michel
Hidenoch who had done some collecting there. Yacoub added "missing" verses, translated from some
form of Lord Randall. Unfortunately, he didn't specify which bits were which. The result appeared on
Yacoub's "Trad. Arr." in (I think) 1979.Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 29/09/03

There are quite a number of English-language ballads that have translated into French, and I'm been working with a Francophone singer in New Brunswick named Allan Kelly.  among the translations that he sings are "The False Knight on the Road," "The Cruel Mother," and his daughter sings "Florella" in French.  See the paper I co-authored with Ronald Labelle that appeared in Northeast Folklore, in the festscrhift for Sandy Ives c. 2000.  The 0paper is called, "The French Irishman as Cultureal Broker..." and begins on p. 97.        Marge-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Malcolm Douglas
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 7:38 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: French challenged----- Original Message -----
From: "Cal & Lani Herrmann" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 24 October 2003 01:05
Subject: Re: [BALLAD-L] French challenged> Hello,
> Off the tip of my head, I can only think of one ballad that has apparently
> been translated wholesale from the English to (Canadian) French:  "Henry My Son,"
> which I heard as "Honore' Mon Enfant":According to Gabriel Yacoub, this was based on a Quebecois fragment taught to him by a Michel
Hidenoch who had done some collecting there. Yacoub added "missing" verses, translated from some
form of Lord Randall. Unfortunately, he didn't specify which bits were which. The result appeared on
Yacoub's "Trad. Arr." in (I think) 1979.Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.522 / Virus Database: 320 - Release Date: 29/09/03

Hello all,I am working through the copyright issue for an upcoming album and I am trying to find the author of the song "the mice are at it again"  It was rumored to have been written by Cathal Mc Conall but a quick query to him and it seems that is not true.  Cathal suggested this maybe an old dance hall song.  Is any one familiar with this one?Many thanks,Liz in autumnal New Hampshire

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Is this the same as "My Good Old Man?" in which the man is going to eat a bushel of eggs so he can die and haunt his woman forever?Beth Brooks
Indiana University
Indianapolis>>> [unmask] 10/24/03 09:48 AM >>>
There is a fine version of "Best Old Man in the World" on a Cajun recording
by Clemo Breaux and Joseph Falcon in the Harry Smith Anthology.  It's call Le
Vieux Soulard et sa Femme (The old drunkard and his wife).Mark G

On Fri, Oct 24, 2003 at 10:39:00AM -0500, Beth Brooks wrote:
> Is this the same as "My Good Old Man?" in which the man is going to eat a bushel of eggs so he can die and haunt his woman forever?        In a word: yes.  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Ed,
Does the Herd mss have anything of interest to trad ballad students that
isn't found elsewhere?
SteveG

That's precisely what I've been wondering.  We'd be talking only about the chorus since the verses came later.Sue Attalla---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Thu, 23 Oct 2003 11:40:39 -0500>Had a good look at the Levy site. The words certainly don't ring any bells.
>Could whoever linked it up with something British have been referring to
>the tune? It certainly is quite a simple tune but I'm no sight reader.
>SteveG
>

Thanks.I've seen Nye's connection to Bland and spotted the title under Bland's name in another folk song index.  It's not impossible Bland performed some early version of the song, but I'm skeptical.  It's even less likely he composed it. If anyone could come up with proof, that information would be very interesting.  Since much of Bland's music was never published, this is a difficult task.What's your source on the 1911 Byron Harlan recording?  Newspaper sources I have refer to the new Harlan/American Quartette recording in spring of 1912.Sue Attalla---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Thu, 23 Oct 2003 04:19:57 -0500>A few comments.
>
>Russel Nye,  in The Unembarrassed Muse: The Popular Arts in America,
>[New York, 1978, p. 314] connects the song to James Bland. Bland
>performed in England for much of the latter portion of the 1800s before
>returning to the US. Bland died in 1911 the same year that the American
>Quartette/Byron G Harlan record was released [Victor 17065].
>

Thanks, Paul.  This jives with everything I've seen, but I'm still left wondering about the possibility a British tune related to the chorus.Sue Attalla---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Thu, 23 Oct 2003 01:03:03 -0500>----- Original Message -----
>From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
>
>
><<The claims of British origin seem unlikely.   They appear some places
>where they are almost certainly a joke. Nonetheless, the source alluded to
>in my earlier posting differs from the others.  Tonight I've had a chance to
>go back to my notes and can say that the claim comes from Folk Song Index:
>A Comprehensive Guide to the Florence E. Brunnings Collection (New York and
>London:  Garland Publishing, 1981).  The index connects the Hound Dog Song
>with John A. Long, Old English Ballads. That is the book that I borrowed
>through Interlibrary Loan, only to find Robin Hood.
>
>If you would like to see a copy of the 1912 sheet music, try the Lester S.
>Levy Collection, and search on the word "dawg":
>
>http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/advancedsearch.html
>
>Thanks for any help you can offer.  I'm not hopeful about discovering a
>British connection, but it would be fascinating.>>
>
>The Traditional Ballad Index offers no British connections, other than the
>Roud link you discsuss. The first recording is, like the sheet music, from
>1912, and is presumably taken directly from the sheet music. The artist,
>Byron Harlan, was a popular and prolific singer, doing pop songs and
>minstrel-show pieces. There's a later recording by Gid Tanner & his Skillet
>Lickers.
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Steve:Yes.  References to early ms., prints; texts and fragments of traditional songs -- particularly "nursery songs" -- an a goodly history in the introduction of early Scots collecting.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, October 24, 2003 9:37 am
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 10/22/03> Ed,
> Does the Herd mss have anything of interest to trad ballad students that
> isn't found elsewhere?
> SteveG
>

Okay but verse 2 scans better....Ye'll busk, ye'll busk my noble dogs,
Ye'll busk and make them boun,
They're the cleverest hounds in all the North,
So stop kicking ma dogs aroun'.SteveG

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

The words and tune are in the Digital Tradition, but no author is listed.
It is listed as recorded by Sean Corcoran on Sailing into Walpole's Marsh on
Inisfree-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Elizabeth Hummel
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 9:29 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: The mice are at it again.Hello all,I am working through the copyright issue for an upcoming album and I am
trying to find the author of the song "the mice are at it again"  It was
rumored to have been written by Cathal Mc Conall but a quick query to him
and it seems that is not true.  Cathal suggested this maybe an old dance
hall song.  Is any one familiar with this one?Many thanks,Liz in autumnal New Hampshire

There's a puppet show based on Thomas the Rhymer, put on by Barebones
Productions, in Minnehaha Park in Minneapolis. I didn't quite catch the
schedule on radio, and the online info I found was "more info coming".In this version, Thomas is a weather forecaster before he goes to Elfland.In the discussion on radio, it was mentioned that Thomas is kidnapped by
the Queen of Elfland. To me, that interpretation is a bit odd. Every
version of the ballad I've seen has him going voluntarily.--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

Sailing into Walpole's Marsh was released in the US in 1983 by Green Linnet [SIF 1004]. No composer is listed but the notes read, in part:"'The Mice Are At It Again' This was given to Sean by Paddy Belton, a singer from the village of Louth who specialized in humorous material."In the blurb about Sean Corcoran it is noted that "[a] group of 350 songs from County Louth, collected by Sean, is soon to be published." It might be worth looking for that volume.Cliff[unmask] wrote:>The words and tune are in the Digital Tradition, but no author is listed.
>It is listed as recorded by Sean Corcoran on Sailing into Walpole's Marsh on
>Inisfree
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
>Of Elizabeth Hummel
>Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 9:29 AM
>To: [unmask]
>Subject: The mice are at it again.
>
>
>Hello all,
>
>
>I am working through the copyright issue for an upcoming album and I am
>trying to find the author of the song "the mice are at it again"  It was
>rumored to have been written by Cathal Mc Conall but a quick query to him
>and it seems that is not true.  Cathal suggested this maybe an old dance
>hall song.  Is any one familiar with this one?
>
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Liz
>
> in autumnal New Hampshire
>
>
>