The ABC below is apparently the original tune for a widely known
song under variety of titles. Jean Redpath's "Skipping Barfoot
through the Heather" is the earliest I remember hearing, then a
version sung by Delia Murphy.
It's Steve Roud's #375, and he cites broadside texts and
traditional ones. It's been widely known in Scotland [Greig-
Duncan], Ireland [Sam Henry coll'n +..], Canada, and less common
in the USA. If I remember correctly, Bertrand Bronson even has a
few traditional versions added as variants of a Child ballad, in
'Traditional tunes of the Child Ballads'. [Loan of MS by Kate Van Winkle
Keller]X:1
T:O'er the Muir Among the Heather
S:David Young MS, 1740. Bodleian MS Don. d.54
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:C|
K:G
DEGA GAGD|EGAB ABAE|GABG ABde|dBgB ABAG:|\
G g2 a gagd|e2a abag|bage degd|(e/f/g) Bg ABAG:|]Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 02:35:40PM -0400, Bruce Olson wrote:
> I mentioned "Key of the Cellar/Bob and Joan" here in a recent post.
> {In a reply to John Garst on indicted timing ans which notes were stress
> notes)
>
> Thanks to Kate Van Winkle Keller for the loan of a xerox of a
> manuscript, below is an ABC of the earliest known copy of it.
> The bawdy "Rakes of Stoney Batter" which gave the tune it most
> popular title after c 1775, "Bob and Joan", is in the Scarce
> Songs 1 file on my website. In the Irish tune index on my website
> are some other titles for the tune, but they don't take us to
> songs to the tune, like Samuel Woodworth's "Patriotic Diggers",
> and a school song, if I remember correctly, of Amherst.
>
> Sorry, the dance directions can't be clearly seen on the xerox copy, and
> aren't given here.        Sorry back, Bruce, but there is NOTHING (no ABC or anything else)
        in your message.  ??? -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Cal & Lani Herrmann wrote:
>
>
>         Sorry back, Bruce, but there is NOTHING (no ABC or anything else)
>         in your message.  ??? -- Aloha, Lani
>
> <||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
> <||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360Sorry, I shouldn't have renamed the file after I copied the ABC onto the
header text, because I sent only the header.The ABC below is apparently the original tune for a widely known
song under variety of titles. Jean Redpath's "Skipping Barfoot
through the Heather" is the earliest I remember hearing, then a
version sung by Delia Murphy.
It's Steve Roud's #375, and he cites broadside texts and
traditional ones. It's been widely known in Scotland [Greig-
Duncan], Ireland [Sam Henry coll'n +..], Canada, and less common
in the USA. If I remember correctly, Bertrand Bronson even has a
few traditional versions added as variants of a Child ballad, in
'Traditional tunes of the Child Ballads'.X:1
T:O'er the Muir Among the Heather
S:David Young MS, 1740. Bodleian MS Don. d.54
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:C|
K:G
DEGA GAGD|EGAB ABAE|GABG ABde|dBgB ABAG:|\
G g2 a gagd|e2a abag|bage degd|(e/f/g) Bg ABAG:|]--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

The song "Jess Macfarlane" was printed in Napier's 'Scots Songs' in
1794. The tune there was a version of "Ay Waukin O" that I don't
have.
C. K. Sharpe said she was an Edinburgh beauty of about
1740. She can't be later, given the tune below. This song, an extended
version of "Ay Waukin O",  can be found in the Scare Songs 1 file on my
website. If we threw a piles of slurs into the tune below, we might get
a fit to the verses.The early tune, below, presumeably for some song about her, however,
doesn't seem to be "Ay Waukin O". This leaves us with more problems
concerning it's tune history than we started with. Is there
another song of Jess Macpharlane that we haven't heard about?
[Typical of real research.]X:1
T:Jess Macfarlane
S:David Young MS, 1740. Bodleian MS Don. d. 54
N:from xerox copy of Kate Van Winkle Keller
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:C
K:D
e|fA A/A/A "tr"e3/2d/2Be|fA A/A/A "tr"e2 de|\
fA A/A/A "tr"e3/2d/2Be|aedf "tr"e2e:|\
e|fdef "tr"d3/2d/Be|fdfd "tr"e2 de|fdfd "tr"e3/2dBe|\
aefd "tr"e2d:|]Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Andrew Blaikie's "Franklin is fled away":
From NLS MS Adv 5.3.4 (c 1650-55). 6 verses of which I copied
only the first:FrankenWho shall now grace our pladnes[?], oh hone, oh hone
Or teach love by sadness the Swaines
Since ffrankin's fled away, the fower of yt May
Who can but Sadly say, oh hone, oh hone.From the broadside ballad index on my website:
Frankin my loyal friend, O hone, O hone/ ZN916| A mournful Carol
..Frankin and Cordelia/ Tune: Franklin is fled away/ P2  76 = RB7
418: M. Coles, VWCTP// Tune: Frankin is fled away/ DC2  221b: Wm.
Gilbertson [BC2 69] [Entered 1656. ZB1823|, Expansion  of six
verse song in NLS MS Adv. 19.3.4, f. 19v, where name is  Frankin,
not Franklin. ?Answer, N916|] [search for 'Franklin is fled' in
my broadside ballad index to see how popular the tune was]
Simpson's tune in BBBM is given as B146 among the broadside
ballad index on my website. Needless to say non-Scots knew nothing of
the Scots text or tune.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Sorry, that last post or mine had Subject: traditional tune,
which was wrong. It' a Blaike MS tune.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Blaikie's traditional tunes. Here are some of the easy ones:ZNnnnn are listing numbers in the broadside ballad index on my
website. BBBM means early tune is in Simpson's 'The British
Broadside Ballad and It's Music', and as an ABC on my website.86 Love will find out the way: Over the Mountains/ ZN2200 Truths
Integrity/ Tune: Love will  find out the Way. To a pleasant new
tune/ E 358: CWVG/ RB2 639:  F. Coules/ RWL 189: CVW/ DC2 232a:
E. C for CVW [Entd. very late, 1656, 1675. ZB2745|, ZB2746|.
Answer entered 1633, ZB81|] Tune very popular. BBBM95 Cock Robin's Testament (chorus words of this wanted);
96 Cock Robin's Testament - a different air:
"Robin's Testament". From Herd's 'Scots Songs', 1776, to multiple
traditional versions in Greig-Duncan, vol. 397 Rosanna - In Oxford lived a Lady fair: ? O where's my Rosinda?
shall I never more/ ZN2063| The two Unfortunate Lovers..[Almander
and Rosinda] Traditional versions usually name her Rosanna. Roud
#788, Laws M30.99 The Spanish Lady (a queer tune. what are the words)
Will you hear a Spanish Lady/ ZN2935| The Spanish Ladies Love/ a
Pleasant New Tune/ [by T. Deloney?]/ P3 148: CTP/ E 340 = WE25  11:
CVG/ P5B 26: TP/ OPB 219: W. O./ DC2 211b: CVW/ RB6 655:   [no
imprint]/ CR 1351 = Frb.19(25): W. O and A. M. and sold by  J.
Conyers/  CR 1352: Bow-Church-Yard/ CR 1353: Aldermary
Church-Yard/ CR 1354: J. Butler, Worcester [c 1750]// Tune:  Flying
Fame/ DC2 210a: T. Norris/ 'Garland of Goodwill', Mann's  'Deloney'
[DC3 84v, BC1 48, BC2 36] [Entd. June 11, 1603, 1624,  1675.
ZB2509|, ZB2508|, ZB2510|] [COB2 191] Simpson's BBBM tune from NLS,
MS Adv. 5.2.15 (Skene MS), which I have seen.106 King William going out a hunting (pretty. what words?)
1: Old stories do tell us of notable things/ ZN2140| The Royal
Recreation..King William's. Entertainment at a Country Farmer's
House/ Tune: Let Caesar live long/ Licensed according to Order/  P2
312 = CR 967: BDBB [Ptd. RB7 759] [Answer commences "The  most
Royal frollick," N1778|, N1779|. Almost identical to that here is
'The Royal Frolic,' commencing "Old stories inform us of Jocular
things," N2141|] BBBM
2: Old Stories inform us of Jocular things/ ZN2141| The Royal
Frolick. King William.. Entertainment at the Farmers House/  Tune:
Let Caesar live long/ Licensed according to Order/ P2  313: J.
Millet [Ptd. RB7 756] [Almost the same as 'The Royal Recreation,'
commencing "Old stories do tell us of  notable things," ZN2140. The
answer to the Royal Frolick commences "The most Royal Frolick of
our Great King," N1778|, 1779] BBBM119 A penny worth of wit:? Here is a pennyworth of Wit/ ZN1132| ABruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Blaikie's traditional tunes. Here are some of the easy ones:
>
Add:
99 Spanish Lady 1:  Roud #9735.Other possibilities, but I thank Blaikie's date of c 1827 is maybe too
early for them.Spanish Lady 2: As I was upon the way/ ZN254| Denying Lady/ Tune:
I [Aye] marry and thank you too [meaningless music printed]/
Licensed according to Order/ P5 248: A. Milbourn. BBBM. Original
of traditional "Spanish Lady/ Spanish Merchant's Daughter", Roud
#146 (but one apparently listed as #542)Spanish Lady 3: in Grieg-Duncan, IV, #746. Roud #542 (but one
apparently listed as #146)Add:
to 95/6 Robin's testament: Roud #3900
to 86 Love will find out the way: Roud #13167Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:> X:1
> T:Jess Macfarlane
> S:David Young MS, 1740. Bodleian MS Don. d. 54
> N:from xerox copy of Kate Van Winkle Keller
> Q:1/4=120
> L:1/8
> M:C
> K:D
> e|fA A/A/A "tr"e3/2d/2Be|fA A/A/A "tr"e2 de|\
> fA A/A/A "tr"e3/2d/2Be|aedf "tr"e2e:|\
> e|fdef "tr"d3/2d/Be|fdfd "tr"e2 de|fdfd "tr"e3/2dBe|\
> aefd "tr"e2d:|]
> Bruce OlsonThe tune 'Jess Macfarlane", 1740, may have been just a dance tune
named in her honor, so I'm not searching for another song about her.The dance of 1740:SETT and cast down the first Couple, Sett and cast down High[?]
Lead up to the head, and cast down the first Couple again. SETT
cross Partners. Four hands around, then right and left.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> Me too (if the bite isn't too severe.)
> dick greenhaus
>
>Jack, sorry if my request for a list of Blaikie's traditional tunes got
you into more than you can handle.Bruce Olson

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Blaikie's traditional tunes. Here are some of the easy ones:
>
> 106 King William going out a hunting (pretty. what words?)
> 1: Old stories do tell us of notable things/ ZN2140| The Royal
> 2: Old Stories inform us of Jocular things/ ZN2141| The Royal
>Whoops, got wrong King William ballad, he's not hunting in the
ones I gave reference to above.106 King William going out a hunting (pretty. what words?)
1: You subjects of Britain come listen a while/ ZN3107| .. King
William And his Forrester/ Tune: its own proper Tune/ CR 1421:  [no
imprint, c 1690-94] [Another version, "You subjects of  England,"
N3108| Roud #853]
2: You subjects of England come listen a while/ ZN3108| The Loyal
Forrister, Or, Royal Pastime/ Tune: Excellent New Tune/ E 156:  C.
Bates// The King and the Forrester/ Tune: [none indicated]/  RB7
763: [white letter, no imprint] [See "You subjects of  Britain,"
N3107|, Roud #853] He's a Keeper in Frank Purslow's 'Marrow Bones',
p. 49--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
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subject index) </a>

How do we get from the first tune below to Francis McPeake's
"Will you go lassie go"? Evolution.X:1
T:The Braes of Balquhidder
S:David Young, 1740. Bodleian MS Don. d.54
Q:1/=120
L:1/8
M:C|
K:Aphrygian
c2|(A/c/d) Fc A2 Ac|(A/c/d) Fc AGGc|\
dFcF A2 Ac|defc A/A/A A:|\
c|defc A/A/A ag|fd"tr"cA cGGc|defd "tr"cAag|\
a/g/f/e/ fc A/A/A Ac|def A/A/A ag|\
fd"tr"cA cGGA|FCC FGAa|(agfe f)c A2A:|]Here's what Jack Campin discovered, song and tune:The Braes o' Bowhether.Now the day's growin' lang lass,
an' sweet shines the weather,
an' we'll owre a' the hills,
to the Braes o' Bowhether.
Amang the Glens an' Rashy dens,
I'll prize thee without measure,
Within my arms, wi' a' thy charms,
I'll clasp my lovely treasure,
In sweetest Love, our time will move,
wi' mair than earthly pleasure;
By the little limpid streams,
On the Braes o' Bowhether.An' I'll ay loe thee dearly,
Ilk day wes' forgather,
Syne we'll row on the fog,
By the Braes o' Bowhether;
To Pipe or Flute, when time will suit,
We'll dance like ony feather,
An', skip the knowes where Claver grows,
Or stray amang the Heather;
Ay free frae strife in sic a life,
There, weary shall we never,
By the limpid little streams,
On the Braes o' Bowhether.X:2
T:The Braes o' Bowhether
S:John Hamilton, 24 Scots Songs, 1796
N:H is not standard ABC yet; it means a fermata, sic-
N:bars 6 and 8 are too long (2nd to last notes length 2 instead?)
Z:Jack Campin
Q:1/4=120
M:C
L:1/8
K:F
"Slow"
A/ c/|d2 F> G A A> z c| d2  F> G A <G z/(G/A/)c/|\
d2 F> G| (AG) A> c|(d>e)  f> d   (c/A/  A2)   ||\
c |d> e f d c> A a> g| f d  c> A  (A/G/) G3 c/|\
d> e f  d   c> A a> g| f> e (d/e/) (f/d/) (c/A/) A3 c/|\
d> e f  d   c> A a> g| f> d (d/c/) (B/A/) (A/G/) G2   A/G/|\
F> D C> D  (F>G)  A> c|(d>e) (g/f/) (e/d/) (c/A/  A2)  |]Robert Tannahil seems to have known a bit of the old song, but
not it's tune. From Graham's 'Songs of Scotland' we get
Tannahill's "The Braes of Balquhidder'Will you go lassie, go,
To the Braes o' Balquhidder?
Where the blaeberries grow,
'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather;
Where the deer and the rae,
Lightly bounding together,
Sport the lang summer day
'Mang the braes o' Balquhidder,
[Cho:] Will you go lassie go,
To the braes o' Balquhidder?
Where the blaeberries grow,
'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather.[3 more verses]Graham said the tune was in Capt. Fraser's 'Highland Melodies',
1816, #77, with slight differenes from that (later) in R. A.
Smith's 'Scottish Minstrel' I, p. 49 (I don't have).Capt. Fraser's is:Bochuidear      Balquhidder. As performed by Major LoganX:3
T:Bochuidear
S:Capt. Fraser's Highland Melodies [reprint]
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:C
K:F
c|{A/c/}d2 F3/2c/ A2 A3/2c/|{A/c/}d2 F3/2c/ AGGc|\
{A/c/}d2 F3/2c/ A2 Ac|d3/2e/{d/e/}f3/2d/ cA A:|\
c|d3/2e/ {d/e/}f3/2d/ c/A3/2 {c/}a3/2g/|\
f3/2c/ d/c/B/A/ AGGc|d3/2e/ {d/e/}f3/2d/ c/A3/2 {c/}a3/2g/|\
f/d3/2) {d/e/}f3/2d/ c3/2A/Ac|\
d3/2e/ {d/e/}f3/2d/ c/A3/2 {c/}a3/2g/|\
f3/2c/ (d/c/)(B/A/) AGG (A/G/)|F3/2E/D3/2E/ F3/2G/A3/2c/|\
d3/2e/ {d/e/}f3/2d/ cAA|]I suspect all here know Francis McPeake's version. I quit here.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> How do we get from the first tune below to Francis McPeake's
> "Will you go lassie go"? Evolution.
>
> X:1
> T:The Braes of Balquhidder
> S:David Young, 1740. Bodleian MS Don. d.54> Bruce OlsonAbove with dance calls of 1740, Tannahill's and McPeake's text given
complete are now in Scarce Song 2 file on my website. ABCs are in S2.ABC
for easier play, and ABC of "Braes of Balquither" from
'Scots Music Museum', 1788, added.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>I'm trying to think up a way to make my progress available
without clogging Ballad-L with numerous notes here. The best I've
come up with is make a file on my website, and annouce
'significant' progress. There are a lot of Child ballad tunes
there, that probably can't be tied to any particular text.Some of the odd ones we'll have to rely on Murray Shoolbraid or
Grieg-Duncan collection to figure out, if we're ever going to, that is.30 Go to the windward my love (Beautiful)
If you'll buy 'window' for 'windward', we've got a very old night
visit song. Simpson's BBBM, tune= #162, (ABC on my website) gives
long discussion, mentioning Baskerville's 'Elizabeth Jig', but
Baskerville also wrote an article 'English Songs of the Night
Visit', which I copied many years ago, but forgot to note what
journal it came from. PMLA most likely.74 Niddlety noddlety. Probably "Robin a-Thrush" version of Child
ballad of wife wrapted in wedderskin.87 cold winter Roud #583. Broadsides (Curragh of Kildare) and
traditional (Cold winter...) J. Oswald printed tune in bk 10 of
CPC, c 1759.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
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subject index) </a>

Now on my website at the end of section 1 is a click-on to file
BLAIKREF.TXT to follow progress in Identifying Andrew Blaikie's
traditional tunes.If you want to propose an identification then email it to me,
and I'll enter it and credit it to you in the file, but please not
all at once.Steve Roud's folksong index doesn't cover printed or manuscript
music sources, so I've entered at #87 the tune titles reference
to "Curragh of Kildare" in my Irish tune index. Search through
Irish tune index file, as it has a nominal cut-off date of 1864
(just before Petrie died) for numbered items, and later items,
like Joyce's 4 verses and tune in OIFMS, and O'Neill's tune in
'Music of Ireland' are further down the file.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Hi!        This appeared this morning. The seller seems to have a lot of
interesting books and I have been watching his listings everyday.        3551384957 - Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads Vol 4 by
Bronson, 1972, $49 (ends Sep-18-03 19:56:39 PDT)                        Happy Bidding!
                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Surprise, surprise...I'm going for this...among a few score other people I
guess...
Thanks for the heads-up, Dolores
Simon

Any idea of what the total cost would be?
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> Folks:
>
> I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
otherwise never see.
>
> Ed
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
> Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 0:09 am
> Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
>
> > > This is very valuable, especially as it early dates the tunes given.
> > > Motherwell printed some of the tunes, but is there any effort afoot
> > > to print the entire manuscript?
> >
> > Not unless I do it, I guess.  I had in mind publishing a few Scottish
> > MSS on CD-ROM using the same technology I've already used, but hadn't
> > thought of this one; it would be a couple of weeks' work and only
> > feasible if I could find some funding for it, as it's hardly going to
> > sell in huge numbers.
> >
> >
> > > Can it be copied/Xeroxed/scanned?
> >
> > Yes, but it won't be cheap.  There are microfilms about; these will
> > lose the pencil annotations (you've got my transcriptions of them,
> > anyway) but the music calligraphy is clear enough for microfilming,
> > the binding lies flat, and I don't remember seeing a single correction
> > or ambiguous pitch that might need close-up physical examination to
> > sort out.
> >
> > www.nls.uk will give reprographic prices somewhere.  Since they've
> > already microfilmed it, second-generation copies might be cheaper.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> > --
> > Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131
6604760
> > <" target="l">http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food
intolerance
> > data & recipes,
> > Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro,
Embro".
> > ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please.
<-
> > --
> >
>

Norm:I do not.  So far, I have noted five people willing to part with hard currency for such a CD: Dick Greenhaus, Paul Stamler, Bruce Olson, Lani Herrman and myself.  You would be the sixth.Note that I am asking Jack directly -- as well as tickling the ballad-l list once more.  Hey, you shake the tree and you never know what will fall out.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 12, 2003 2:44 pm
Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> Any idea of what the total cost would be?
> Norm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:45 AM
> Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
>
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
> Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
> otherwise never see.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
> > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 0:09 am
> > Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
> >
> > > > This is very valuable, especially as it early dates the tunes given.
> > > > Motherwell printed some of the tunes, but is there any effort afoot
> > > > to print the entire manuscript?
> > >
> > > Not unless I do it, I guess.  I had in mind publishing a few Scottish
> > > MSS on CD-ROM using the same technology I've already used, but hadn't
> > > thought of this one; it would be a couple of weeks' work and only
> > > feasible if I could find some funding for it, as it's hardly going to
> > > sell in huge numbers.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Can it be copied/Xeroxed/scanned?
> > >
> > > Yes, but it won't be cheap.  There are microfilms about; these will
> > > lose the pencil annotations (you've got my transcriptions of them,
> > > anyway) but the music calligraphy is clear enough for microfilming,
> > > the binding lies flat, and I don't remember seeing a single correction
> > > or ambiguous pitch that might need close-up physical examination to
> > > sort out.
> > >
> > > www.nls.uk will give reprographic prices somewhere.  Since they've
> > > already microfilmed it, second-generation copies might be cheaper.
> > >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> -
> > > --
> > > Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131
> 6604760
> > > <" target="l">" target="l">http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *
> foodintolerance
> > > data & recipes,
> > > Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro,
> Embro".
> > > ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please.
> <-
> > > --
> > >
> >
>

OK, keep me (us) posted.  And keep your umbrella handy.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> Norm:
>
> I do not.  So far, I have noted five people willing to part with hard
currency for such a CD: Dick Greenhaus, Paul Stamler, Bruce Olson, Lani
Herrman and myself.  You would be the sixth.
>
> Note that I am asking Jack directly -- as well as tickling the ballad-l
list once more.  Hey, you shake the tree and you never know what will fall
out.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>

<snip>his listings</snip>I have bought a number of the books from this person.He is a she Dolores!!Regards,Dave

Prof. Child, ESPB, gave as his #279 the Scottish ballad, "The
Jolly Beggar", which I've added to the earlier (and un expurgated) "The
Politick
Beggar-Man" text in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website.In it the young woman was seduced by the beggar, and when he is
ready to leave, he leaves her money for the nurses fee, then off
he starts with his four-and-twenty belted knights
In my notes there you will find reference to a traditional
sequel, where the four-and-twenty are 'jugglers' (ghiberlain =
beggar, gaberlunzie) first published in 1997.I've added an ABC of the tune "The Beggars Meal Pokes" from J.
Oswald's CPC, c 1758. Oswald attributed the tune to King James
6th.In Walsh's 'British Musical Miscellany', I, p. 50, [1734],
we find "The Gaberlunzie Man" tune attributed to King James 5th.
The usual tune for "The Gaberlunzie Man" has now turned up in the
Balcarres Lute MS, c 1700, so the song and tune are a little
older than previously thought.Bruce Olson
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

At 11:26 AM 9/13/03 +0100, you wrote:>He is a she Dolores!!If he is a she Dolores, then is she a He Dolores??I'm getting confused....
Lisa

Lisa - S. H. wrote:
>
> At 11:26 AM 9/13/03 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >He is a she Dolores!!
>
> If he is a she Dolores, then is she a He Dolores??
>
> I'm getting confused....
> LisaLet's clear up one point. Dolores is cetainly not a he. If she weren't
married to a friend of mine (on Ballad-L) I'd be after her, but she and
Don found each other before I got there.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.Dolorews erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage
(= subject index) </a>

Folks:Oh, migod!  Our first love triangle, mayhap quadrangle!I don't think an old man's heart can take all this in.Complicating Bruce's innocent message, below, is the fact that I love Dolores too.  Who could not, given her ebay postings.Don Nichols, look to your laurels.  Dolores, don't you just love all these randy old men bidding for your favor?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, September 13, 2003 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!> Lisa - S. H. wrote:
> >
> > At 11:26 AM 9/13/03 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> > >He is a she Dolores!!
> >
> > If he is a she Dolores, then is she a He Dolores??
> >
> > I'm getting confused....
> > Lisa
>
> Let's clear up one point. Dolores is cetainly not a he. If she weren't
> married to a friend of mine (on Ballad-L) I'd be after her, but she and
> Don found each other before I got there.
>
> Bruce Olson
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> http://www.Dolorews erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage
> (= subject index)
>

edward cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> Oh, migod!  Our first love triangle, mayhap quadrangle!
>
> I don't think an old man's heart can take all this in.
>
> Complicating Bruce's innocent message, below, is the fact that I love Dolores too.  Who could not, given her ebay postings.
>
> Don Nichols, look to your laurels.  Dolores, don't you just love all these randy old men bidding for your favor?
>
> Ed
>
Having no doubt embarrassed mid-mannered, modest, and self-
effacing Dolores, to even things up I now do the same to her husband,
with the same traits.
I think I first met them about August, or a month or two later,
in 1976, when I got modestly involved in FSGW (at fsgw.org).
A gossip who was around earlier than me told me that when Don
showed up there were several single women that thought he was a prize.
We know who got the prize.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 12:16:18PM -0400, Bruce Olson wrote:        [ ... ]> Having no doubt embarrassed mid-mannered, modest, and self-
> effacing Dolores, to even things up I now do the same to her husband,
> with the same traits.
> I think I first met them about August, or a month or two later,
> in 1976, when I got modestly involved in FSGW (at fsgw.org).
> A gossip who was around earlier than me told me that when Don
> showed up there were several single women that thought he was a prize.        I wish that I'd known about that then. :-) (I wasn't good at
reading such interest.)> We know who got the prize.        And I believe that I got the *real* prize.  Dolores and I have
been a very good fit together.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

From the broadside ballad index on my website:Where got'st thou the Haver-mill Bonack/ ZN2902| Bonny Dundee:
Or, Jockey's Deliverance, being his Valiant Escape from Dundee
And the Parson's Daughter, whom he had Mow'd/ Tune: Bonny Dundee/
Licensed according to Order/ P5 262 = CR 1334: Charles Bates,
White Heart/ RB8 453: [not given, but apparently 18th cent.]
[With music in `Pills' V, 17, 1719.] Charles Bates, printer of the
earliest copy, printed ballads from 1690 to c 1702.Nigel Gatherer gave a copy as #28 in his 'Songs and Ballad of
Dundee', 1986.In the Scarce Songs 2 file on my website, I gave fragments from
Herd and SMM and the Greig-Duncan collection that suggested that
there was a later sequel sung by Jenny, the minster's daughter
that Jockey had mowed between St. Johnston and Bonny Dundee, and
the first verse of the 'Jockey's Escape' ballad was a corrupted
verse from the sequel.This made a song given by C. K. Sharpe from the Mansfield/ St.
Clair MS in 'SMM Addl. Illustrations' a version of the sequel.I just discovered that "Scots Callan to Bonny Dundee", #58, in
Nigel's book is a relatively recent traditional version of this
sequel.The well known tune, as "Adew Dundie", goes back to the Skene MS.
There are widely varying estimates of the date of the manuscript,
and I've been through every page of it, but could come up with
nothing new.What happened later to our "Jockey" ballad is also interesting,
as the original song and tune gradually got lost we have a new
version of "Jockey's Escape":From Ritson, "Highland Laddie":Oh where, and oh where does your Highland laddie dwell
He lives in merry Scotland, at the sign of the Blue BellWhich takes us to two versions of "The Blue Bells of Scotland"
See texts in the Scarce Songs 2 file on my website.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>
> This made a song given by C. K. Sharpe from the Mansfield/ St.
> Clair MS in 'SMM Addl. Illustrations' a version of the sequel.
>
> I just discovered that "Scots Callan to Bonny Dundee", #58, in
> Nigel's book is a relatively recent traditional version of this
> sequel.
>
>Jockey gets changed into Robin Rattle,
but Jenny remains in this third song
of our series.O Saw ye Jenny Nettles;
Jenny Nettles, Jenny Nettles.
Saw ye Jenny Nettles,
Coming frae the market:
Wi' Bag and baggage on her back,
Her fee and bountith in her lap,
wi' Bag and baggage on her back,
And a babie in her oxterI met ayont the kairny
Jenny Nettles, Jenny Nettles;
Singing till her bairny,
Robin Rattles bastard:
To flee the dool upo' the stool,
And ilka snf that mocks her,
She round about seeks Robin out,
To stap it in his oxter.Fy, fy, Robin Rattle
Robin Rattle, Robin Rattle,
Fy, fy, Robin Rattle
Use Jenny Nettles kindly;
Score out the blame, and shun the shame,
And without mair debate o't,
Tak hame your wean, make Jenny fain.
The leel and leesome gate o't.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 12:01:19AM -0700, edward cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> Oh, migod!  Our first love triangle, mayhap quadrangle!
>
> I don't think an old man's heart can take all this in.
>
> Complicating Bruce's innocent message, below, is the fact that I love
>Dolores too.  Who could not, given her ebay postings.
>
> Don Nichols, look to your laurels.  Dolores, don't you just love all
>these randy old men bidding for your favor?
>
> Ed
>
Ed & Bruce,        Thank You! I am embarrassed and flattered beyond words! May I
return the compliments by saying that you are both outstanding gentlemen
and scholars. It is an honor and pleasure to know both of you.                                        Dolores>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
> Date: Saturday, September 13, 2003 5:55 pm
> Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
>
> > Lisa - S. H. wrote:
> > >
> > > At 11:26 AM 9/13/03 +0100, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >He is a she Dolores!!
> > >
> > > If he is a she Dolores, then is she a He Dolores??
> > >
> > > I'm getting confused....
> > > Lisa
> >
> > Let's clear up one point. Dolores is cetainly not a he. If she weren't
> > married to a friend of mine (on Ballad-L) I'd be after her, but she and
> > Don found each other before I got there.
> >
> > Bruce Olson
> > --
> > Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> > and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> > http://www.Dolorews erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage
> > (= subject index)
> >
>
---end quoted text-----
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On Sepotember 14, a bemused Dolores Nichols wrote:        Thank You! I am embarrassed and flattered beyond words! May I
return the compliments by saying that you are both outstanding gentlemen
and scholars. It is an honor and pleasure to know both of you.                                        DoloresTo which Ed Cray replies:I wouldn't be too sure of that.

As I find out more, I'm more impressed by Gavin Greig. I first
encountered him as a song collector, and as each astonishing volume of
the Greig-Duncan Collection was published, it became apparent to me
what a giant that collection is.I was surprised a little later to see that he had edited instrumental
collections from Scots fiddler James Scott Skinner (as well as writing
an essay on "The Strathspey" in The Harp & Claymore" collection,
displaying a knowledge and appreciation of Scottish fiddle music and
Scottish music in general).Now, as I've been researching Scottish singer Tom Morrison [1] I
discover him as a playwright. Morrison and monologuist Dufton Scott
appeared in Greig's comedy drama "Mains's Wooin'" in 1921 (I have
placed a handbill for this performance on my web site at
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/perf/singers1/tomm/mains.html
). A little more digging has revealed that Greig wrote poetry, an
operetta, at least two novels, and at least two plays (The above
mentioned "Mains's Wooin'" and a sequel, "Mains Again"). I don't know
the novels, but apparently they're "centred round blackmail, larceny
and murder in the 'shilling shocker' mould" [2].Well, I didn't know that![1] = Morrison would be of little interest in the field of ballads; he
wrote and performed humorous songs in Scots character barely related to
traditional forms.
[2] = Newspaper clipping from Edinburgh Evening News, mid-1980s--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

Norm Cohen wrote:
>
> OK, keep me (us) posted.  And keep your umbrella handy.
> Norm
>I've added a few more identifications of songs to go with the
traditional tunes in Andrew Blaiikle's MS, NLS MS.1578, and I've
added a few more Roud numbers. There is now a date at the
beginning of the file of these on my website, BLAIKREF.TXT, so
one may see if anything has been added since you last looked at
it.However, the vast majority of identifications will have to wait
until we have the tunes from the manuscript in hand, so we can
check to see if a suggested song title leads us any particular
text that actually fits the tune.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Nigel Gatherer wrote:
>
> As I find out more, I'm more impressed by Gavin Greig. I first
> encountered him as a song collector, and as each astonishing volume of
> the Greig-Duncan Collection was published, it became apparent to me
> what a giant that collection is.
>
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, ScotlandNigel, have you noticed all the old songs (without tunes) that
were sent to Gavin Greig by mail from Miss Bell Robertson? She
claimed her mother sang many old ballads and songs, and Bell
learned all her verses, but Bell apparently never learned to sing
a one of them. I'm very suspicious that many of Bell's 'old'
ballads may have been Bell's own creations.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

edward cray wrote:
>
> On Sepotember 14, a bemused Dolores Nichols wrote:
>
>         Thank You! I am embarrassed and flattered beyond words! May I
> return the compliments by saying that you are both outstanding gentlemen
> and scholars. It is an honor and pleasure to know both of you.
>
>                                         Dolores
>
> To which Ed Cray replies:
>
> I wouldn't be too sure of that.Yeah, but you're 3000 miles away, and I'm only a little over a 30 minute
drive away, so Don had better keep on eye on her (of course he does,
risk losing her by his inattention, impossible).Bruce Olson

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Nigel Gatherer wrote:
> >
> > As I find out more, I'm more impressed by Gavin Greig. I first
> > encountered him as a song collector, and as each astonishing volume of
> > the Greig-Duncan Collection was published, it became apparent to me
> > what a giant that collection is.
> >
> > Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
>
> Nigel, have you noticed all the old songs (without tunes) that
> were sent to Gavin Greig by mail from Miss Bell Robertson?I should have added that the lack of tunes for Bell Robertson's songs
isn't the only reason for my suspicions about the authenticity of some
of them, but it would take a lot of rereading, and a grest deal of space
here to point out the places where I think several songs might be for
the most part fabricated.Bruce Olson
 --
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Nigel,There are two copies of Murmurings Fra Ury on the web viahttp://used.addall.com/Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Gatherer" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 2:40 PM
Subject: Gavin Greig> As I find out more, I'm more impressed by Gavin Greig. I first
> encountered him as a song collector, and as each astonishing volume of
> the Greig-Duncan Collection was published, it became apparent to me
> what a giant that collection is.
>
> I was surprised a little later to see that he had edited instrumental
> collections from Scots fiddler James Scott Skinner (as well as writing
> an essay on "The Strathspey" in The Harp & Claymore" collection,
> displaying a knowledge and appreciation of Scottish fiddle music and
> Scottish music in general).
>
> Now, as I've been researching Scottish singer Tom Morrison [1] I
> discover him as a playwright. Morrison and monologuist Dufton Scott
> appeared in Greig's comedy drama "Mains's Wooin'" in 1921 (I have
> placed a handbill for this performance on my web site at
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/perf/singers1/tomm/mains.html
> ). A little more digging has revealed that Greig wrote poetry, an
> operetta, at least two novels, and at least two plays (The above
> mentioned "Mains's Wooin'" and a sequel, "Mains Again"). I don't know
> the novels, but apparently they're "centred round blackmail, larceny
> and murder in the 'shilling shocker' mould" [2].
>
> Well, I didn't know that!
>
> [1] = Morrison would be of little interest in the field of ballads; he
> wrote and performed humorous songs in Scots character barely related to
> traditional forms.
> [2] = Newspaper clipping from Edinburgh Evening News, mid-1980s
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> [unmask]
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
>
>

Hi, A desperate request after much searching, including the British Library.
In the 1830s Gilbert A Beckett and Henry Mayhew (yes, that Henry Mayhew)
got together to write a comedietta celled The Wandering Minstrel which
apparently was very popular in the 1850s with a comic of the stature of
Fred Robson in it. I have several copies of the earlier burlesqued folk
songs which were incorporated into the 1850s version but I'm damned if I
can get hold of a copy of the libretto. It has Giles Collins and Villikins
and Lord Lovell all as cousins incorporated, and Billy Taylor and probably
others. sam Cowell may also have been involved briefly on his return from
America.  Any suggestions?
Steve.

> A desperate request after much searching, including the British Library.
> In the 1830s Gilbert A Beckett and Henry Mayhew (yes, that Henry Mayhew)
> got together to write a comedietta celled The Wandering Minstrel which
> apparently was very popular in the 1850s with a comic of the stature of
> Fred Robson in it. I have several copies of the earlier burlesqued folk
> songs which were incorporated into the 1850s version but I'm damned if I
> can get hold of a copy of the libretto. It has Giles Collins and Villikins
> and Lord Lovell all as cousins incorporated, and Billy Taylor and probably
> others. sam Cowell may also have been involved briefly on his return from
> America.  Any suggestions?www.nls.uk lists two editions, 1855 and 1896.The best place in the world for this sort of thing is probably the
Harding Collection at the Bodleian Library, but the Bodleian's
on-line cataloguing sucks with such unparalleled vacuity that if
you can't get to Oxford, forget it.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Jack Campin wrote:
>>
> The best place in the world for this sort of thing is probably the
> Harding Collection at the Bodleian Library, but the Bodleian's
> on-line cataloguing sucks with such unparalleled vacuity that if
> you can't get to Oxford, forget it.
>
>When W. N. H. Harding owned the collection, he had it in Chicago,
Illinois, USA, where, it appears, it was equally unaccessible.
Old CBEL lists his songbooks (as Poetical Miscallanies) [I have xerox in
case anyone wants more precise info on CBEL listing], but nothing else
he had.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:40:01 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      I don't know
>      the novels, but apparently they're "centred round blackmail,
>      larceny
>      and murder in the 'shilling shocker' mould"
>
> I have what must be another of his novels: "Logie O' Buchan - An
> Aberdeenshire Pastoral" republished in 1985 by James G Bisset Ltd.,
> Aberdeen - from the 1899 publication. It's described in the
> Introduction to the new printing (by William Donaldson) as "a tale of
> Jacobite intrugue and romance set in the north-eastjust after the '45
> featuring the exploits of a real-life figure, George Halket,
> schoolmaster of Rathen and Cairnbulg, who was traditionally thought to
> have written the song which gives the book its title." It fit
> appeared as a serial in the Buchan Observer (didn't everything?) from
> 7 Dec 1897 to 19 April 1898 and was then published in a limited
> edition of 500 in 1899 by Wylie of Abredeen. The Introduction gives
> fairly full details of the other works Nigel mentioned.
>
> John MouldenIf Lady Anne Lindsay didn't write the song "Logie of Buchan" then
(second hand from John Glen's 'Early Scottish Melodies', then, according
to Peter Buchan, it was written by George Halket in 1736-7, prior to the
rebellion of '45. [Song and tune in SMM #358]Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

Hi!        Here I am again! This week we have a lot of interesting books.
(and interesting weather if you can use that adjective for a hurricane.)        SONGSTERS        3242008182 - MERCHANT'S GARGLING OIL SONGSTER, $29.99 (Ends
Sep-17-03 08:00:29 PDT)        3626980171 - RINGLING BROS. WORLD'S GREATEST SHOWS SONGBOOK,
1906, $0.99 (Ends Sep-20-03 18:59:47 PDT)        2558549223 - BACK TO THE ONLY GIRL I LOVE SONGSTER, 1896, $4.99
(ends Sep-21-03 17:32:27 PDT)        3626734632 - J B Doris' Great Inter-Ocean Circus and Menagerie -
Merchant's Gargling Oil Liniment Songster, $9.95 (ends Sep-21-03
19:37:08 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2557345644 - Cambrian Minstrelsie by Parry, 1893, 7.99 GBP (ends
Sep-16-03 14:36:13 PDT)        3551362672 - German Texana by Jordan, $9.95 (ends Sep-16-03
18:08:58 PDT)        2557402729 - THE CUMBERLAND RIDGERUNNERS MOUNTAIN BALLADS AND
HOME SONGS, 1936, $9.99 (ends Sep-16-03 18:35:52 PDT)        3550813971 - 2 books (The Book of Negro Folklore by Hughes &
Bontemps, 1958 and American Negro Folk Songs by White, 1928), $33.50
(ends Sep-16-03 19:55:11 PDT)        3550817189 - Folk Songs of the Catskills by Cazden, 1982, $12.95
(ends Sep-16-03 20:08:49 PDT)        3550819349 - Vermont Folk Songs and Ballads by Flanders and
Brown, 1968, $19 (ends Sep-16-03 20:18:59 PDT)        3242031079 - Who fears to Speak? Ballads of Irish Freedom, $9.99
(ends Sep-17-03 10:00:58 PDT)        3550980421 - Spiritual Folksongs of Early America by Jackson,
1937, $15.99 (ends Sep-17-03 11:13:40 PDT)        3551119993 - Jump the Rope Jingles by Worstell, 1961, $8 (ends
Sep-17-03 18:57:40 PDT)        2557744162 - The Minstrelsy of Ireland by Moffatt, 1897?, $7.50
(ends Sep-17-03 19:21:40 PDT)        3551164029 - The Quest of the Ballad by MacKenzie, 1919, $19
(ends Sep-17-03 22:25:58 PDT)        3551209919 - Sea Songs & Shanties by Whall, 1920, $4 (ends
Sep-18-03 06:42:49 PDT)        3551338105 - Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border by Scott, volumes
2 & 3, 1812, $19.95 (ends Sep-18-03 15:45:13 PDT)        3550540406 - The Book of Navy Songs by The Trident Society,
1926, $2.99 (ends Sep-18-03 17:26:55 PDT)        3551359105 - The Scottish Minstrel: The Songs and Song Writers
of Scotland Subsequent to Burns by Rogers, 1873, $19.99 (ends Sep-18-03
17:51:41 PDT)        3551361836 - Narrative Folksong New Direction by Edwards &
Manley, 1985, $14 (ends Sep-18-03 18:05:03 PDT)        3551371055 - Folk Songs of the South by Cox, 1925, $19.99 (ends
Sep-18-03 18:50:27 PDT)        2557866526 - THE MINSTRELSY OF THE SCOTTISH HIGHLANDS by
Moffatt, $5 (ends Sep-18-03 19:30:00 PDT)        3551431102 - The Well-Tempered Lyre, Songs and Verses of the
Temperance Movement by Ewing, 1977, $5 (ends Sep-19-03 05:35:19 PDT)        3551680955 - Wit And Mirth: Or Pills to Purge Melancholy, 3
volumes, 1959 reprint, $75 (ends Sep-20-03 12:35:28 PDT)        2557675146 - The Book of Irish Ballads by MacCarthy, 1869
edition, 29 GBP (ends Sep-20-03 14:30:33 PDT)        3551708151 - 3 Australian books inc. The Wild Colonial Boy &
other Folk Ballads, $1.99 (ends Sep-20-03 14:53:54 PDT)        3551747473 - Secular Music in America 1801-1825 by Wolfe, 3
volumes, 1964, $90 (ends Sep-20-03 19:17:43 PDT)        3551748635 - Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898 by
Wilgus, 1959, $9.99 (ends Sep-20-03 19:24:59 PDT)        3551827945 - Roll and Go: Songs of American Sailormen by
Colcord, 1924, $19 (ends Sep-21-03 07:21:11 PDT)        3551830351 - COME DAY, GO DAY, GOD SEND SUNDAY, The Songs and
Life Story of John Maguire by Morton, 1973, $19.99 (ends Sep-21-03
07:33:17 PDT)        3551846898 - Come and I Will Sing You, A Newfoundland Songbook
by Lehr & Best, $12 (ends Sep-21-03 08:44:28 PDT)        3551902019 - THE OXFORD BOOK OF BALLADS by quiller Couch, 1910,
39.99 GBP (ends Sep-21-03 11:29:37 PDT)        3551932346 - The Negro and His Songs, A Study of Typical Negro
Songs in the South by Odum & Johnson, 1964 reprint, $29 (ends Sep-21-03
12:46:13 PDT)        3551940022 - The Ballads by Hodgart, 1962, $5 (ends Sep-21-03
13:05:43 PDT)        3551953628 - The First Book of Irish Ballads by O'Keefe, 1965
edition, $4 (ends Sep-21-03 13:47:51 PDT)        3551958933 - The Ballad Revival by Friedman, 1961, $9.99 (ends
Sep-21-03 14:07:48 PDT)        3551970958 - The Singing Sixties, The Spirit of Civil War Days
Drawn from the Music of the Times by Heaps, 1960, $19 (ends Sep-21-03
15:02:36 PDT)                        Happy Bidding!
                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
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On 9/15/03, Dolores Nichols wrote:[ ... ]>        3550819349 - Vermont Folk Songs and Ballads by Flanders and
>Brown, 1968, $19 (ends Sep-16-03 20:18:59 PDT)There being no other bids on this one, I put in my oar. If anyone
really wants it, though, I didn't bid very high. Let me know so
I'll know whether to fight you. :-)[ ... ]>
>        3551932346 - The Negro and His Songs, A Study of Typical Negro
>Songs in the South by Odum & Johnson, 1964 reprint, $29 (ends Sep-21-03
>12:46:13 PDT)I'm also watching this one (not sure I want to get into any sort
of tussle at that price point). Anyone else want it?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I'm pursuing the hypothesis that the legendary John Henry was John
Henry Dabney, Copiah County, Mississippi, born a slave in Mississippi
to the father (or possibly uncle) of Captain Frederick Yeamans Dabney
(the "captain" of the ballad).  The memoirs of one of Captain
Dabney's sisters mention a slave boy, Henry, who was a teenager
during the Civil War.  Further, "The 1870 census lists a Henry
Dabney, black, twenty years old, "works on farm," living with his
wife Margaret in Copiah County, Mississippi, a specific candidate for
John Henry.  Henry Dabney married Margaret Foston on November 4,
1869, in Copiah County, Mississippi (marriage records)." ("Chasing
John Henry in Alabama and Mississippi," Tributaries: Journal of the
Alabama Folklife Association, Issue No. 5, 2002.)We all "know" that the name of John Henry's wife/woman was "Polly
Ann," don't we?  That is almost universal nowadays.  It couldn't have
been "Margaret," could it?Of 60 "John Henry" ballads published by 1933 (29 in Johnson, John
Henry; 30 in Chappell, John Henry; 1 from Peter Brannon in Central of
Georgia Magazine for October, 1930):Polly Ann     15*
Mary Ann       3
Julie Ann      3
Delia Ann      1
Sary Ann       1
Martha Ann     1
Lucy           1**
Mary Magdalene 1
Ida Red        1*Obvious variants are included: Paule Ann, Paul E. Ann, Poly Ann, etc.
**The informant was an amateur "John Henry" specialist who claimed
that he had never heard any other name for John Henry's "woman."I think that the following are characteristics of oral transmisstion:(1) There will be substitutions prompted by mishearing, misrecall,
and mental associations.
(2) The familiar will replace the unfamiliar.
(3) The simpler will replace the more complex.
(4) The plausible will replace the implausible.
(5) Better rhymes will replace faulty ones.
(6) The recent versions of a very popular ballad will less valuable
than older ones, as far as historicity is concerned, because the
recent versions will have been changed substantially by the processes
listed above. As change occurs, a ballad will tend toward a stable
end point, that is, changes will have occurred that removed all of
the earlier needs for change.**Are these principles reasonable?**
**Are there others?**"Polly Ann" strikes me as too familiar and commonplace to be likely
to be the correct historic name. Instead, it is probably a nearly
stable end point.When you come across something that is unfamiliar and complex, or
seems out of place, such as "Mary Magdalene," I think you should
automatically give it great credence as a possible "original," or a
relative of the "original," and try to check it out further."Mary Magdalene" puzzled me for several years. Here is the way it
appears in a version sent to Guy B. Johnson in ca 1927.John Henry, he had a woman,
Her name was Mary Magdalene.
She would go to the tunnel and sing for John,
Just to hear John Henry's hammer ring.Note the direct statement, "Her name was Mary Magdalene," and the
interesting near-rhyme: "-lene" / "ring."Here the matter rested, in my mind, until about this time last year
(2002), when I heard Neal Pattman, a local blues singer, in
concert.   In his concerts he almost always does "John Henry," the
first song he ever learned, he says, which he got from his father.
Prior to that evening, I'd never heard him sing a verse that names
John Henry's "woman." Such a verse is absent from Neal's text of
"John Henry" as given by Art Rosenbaum in his and Margo's book, Folk
Visions and Voices, and it is absent from his "John Henry" recording
issued by Global Village (now on CD: CD 226).That evening I sat bolt upright at full attention when I thought I
heard Neal sing something like:John Henry had a little woman,
Maggadee was her name,
When John Henry took sick and had to go to bed,
Maggadee drove steel like a man."Maggadee" sounds a lot like "Magdalene" and a lot like "Maggie
D."   As I sat there on our blanket (this was an outdoor concert) I
formulated the following possible series of mutations:Maggie D
   (from "Margaret Dabney," nee Foston, Henry Dabney's wife)
Maggadee
   (sounds like "Maggie D")
Magdalene
   (more familiar than "Maggadee" and "Maggie D")
Mary Magdalene
   (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
Mary Ann
   (more plausible and driven by rhyme)
Polly Ann
   ("Polly" is a nickname for "Mary.")
xxxx Ann
   (Use your favorite, Julie, Delia, Martha, Sary, Lucy)
Lucy
   (Drop "Ann" from "Lucy Ann." Must make some rhyme provision.)Many people today don't even know that "Polly" is a nickname for
"Mary," but in the 19th century and earlier almost every "Mary" was
known familiarly as "Polly."Recently I've interviewed Neal Pattman, who told me first that the
name was "Maggatee" and then "Magganatee." I and two friends listened
carefully when he sang it at a concert recently and we all agreed
that we heard "Maggadee." It really doesn't make any
difference.   "Maggadee," "Maggatee," and "Magganatee" all sound
something like "Maggie D" and "Magdalene." Neal verified that he got
the name from his father's singing.Notice that Pattman rhymens "name" ("Magaddee was her name") with
"man."  This is a bit better than it might sound - Neal sings "man"
as "main."In the version of Leon R. Harris, who had never heard any name other
than "Lucy," the rhyming problem is met as follows.John Henry's woman, Lucy,
Dress she wore was blue,
Eyes like stars and teeth lak-a marble stone,
An' John Henry named his hammah "Lucy" too.Lucy came to see him,            (Cf. "George's mother came to him,
Bucket in huh han',                    A bucket in her hand.")
All th' time John Henry at his snack,
O Lucy she'd drive steel lak-a man.If Pattman's second line is inverted from "X was her name" to the
more direct, and therefore more familiar, "Her name was X,"
"Maggadee" and "Magdalene" don't provide a rhyme, but "Ann" does.John Henry had a little woman,
Her name was Xxxx Ann,
When John Henry took sick and had to go to bed,
Xxxx Ann drove steel like a man.That's where my "What's in a name?" analysis stood until late last
week. Then I found something I'd overlooked.In Jamaica there has been a strong "John Henry" tradition. I already
knew that that tradition has preserved "Dabner" as the name of one of
John Henry's bosses. Captain Dabney, Crystal Springs, Copiah County,
Mississippi, was Chief Engineer of the Columbus & Western and in
charge of its construction through Dunnavant, Alabama, where John
Henry Dabney is said to have worked on Oak and Coosa Mountain
Tunnels, in 1887-88.What I found yesterday, in a 1966 article by MacEdward Leach, is that
Jamaican tradition preserves the name of John Henry's wife as "Marga."Now ...**What is this, the name findings and analysis, worth as evidence?**I've heard from some who think it worthless.  I'm inclined to give it
more weight than that.--
john garst    [unmask]

John:I am convinced/persuaded by your argument.  The rule should be "best
available evidence," in this case, the text itself.  And that means the
names of the actors.Absent an early text from oral tradition -- not the Blankenship broadside
-- you can't PROVE anything.  But you outline a more plausible theory of
the ballad's origin than anyone else has put forward.Ed

Hi folks:I replied to John in another forum, but it's worth repeating the reply here
too.I can see a more direct way to get from "Margaret" to "Polly Ann". In many
places in the south, "Peggy" is a common nickname for "Margaret" (don't ask
me why, it just is). So:Margaret > Peggy (common)Peggy > Peggy Ann (for the sake of the rhyme)Peggy Ann > Polly Ann (because it rolls off the tongue easier, unless you're
Buddy Holly)But I still feel like this is a pretty tenuous connection -- rather like the
connection someone made between Moses and Middlebury by noting that they're
really the same; all you have to do is change "oses" to "iddlebury".On the other hand, I think the Caribbean reference to "Dabner" and reference
to JH's wife being named "Marga" is NOT trivial, but worth following up. To
me, that's a lot stronger evidence than conjectures about Polly Ann. So
John -- any other Caribbean details, especially place names, that correlate
better with Alabama than with West Virginia?Peace,
Paul

>Hi folks:
>
>I replied to John in another forum, but it's worth repeating the reply here
>too.
>
>I can see a more direct way to get from "Margaret" to "Polly Ann". In many
>places in the south, "Peggy" is a common nickname for "Margaret" (don't ask
>me why, it just is). So:
>
>Margaret > Peggy (common)
>
>Peggy > Peggy Ann (for the sake of the rhyme)
>
>Peggy Ann > Polly Ann (because it rolls off the tongue easier, unless you're
>Buddy Holly)
>
>But I still feel like this is a pretty tenuous connection -- rather like the
>connection someone made between Moses and Middlebury by noting that they're
>really the same; all you have to do is change "oses" to "iddlebury".
>
>On the other hand, I think the Caribbean reference to "Dabner" and reference
>to JH's wife being named "Marga" is NOT trivial, but worth following up. To
>me, that's a lot stronger evidence than conjectures about Polly Ann. So
>John -- any other Caribbean details, especially place names, that correlate
>better with Alabama than with West Virginia?
>
>Peace,
>PaulI'll second Paul here, but with some differences in emphasis.  Yes
the Caribbean details seem VERY interesting, because they are much
less speculative.  However it is often the details, as John
indicateds the apparently anomalous details, which lead one to the
"facts" of a case (as opposed to the "tradition" of it).  Having
said that, the rest of John's considerations would certainly explain
how Marga morphed to Polly Ann - and  in MUCH more plausible fashion
than Moses to Middlebury.  While the second will not imply the first
necessarily, it will certainly support other evidence.BTW another direction of change is from the particular, odd,
excentric, individual towards the traditional, the patterned, normal.
I.e., if "facts" get bent, they will be bent in the direction of
(traditional) expectations.
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

>I can see a more direct way to get from "Margaret" to "Polly Ann". In many
>places in the south, "Peggy" is a common nickname for "Margaret" (don't ask
>me why, it just is). So:
>
>Margaret > Peggy (common)
>
>Peggy > Peggy Ann (for the sake of the rhyme)
>
>Peggy Ann > Polly Ann (because it rolls off the tongue easier, unless you're
>Buddy Holly)
>
>But I still feel like this is a pretty tenuous connection -- rather like the
>connection someone made between Moses and Middlebury by noting that they're
>really the same; all you have to do is change "oses" to "iddlebury".Paul's suggestion is certainly plausible, but it fails to account
specifically for "Maggadee," "Mary Magdalene," and "Marga."  Also, I
know of no recoveries of "Peggy" or "Peggy Ann" in versions of "John
Henry."  For these reasons, I favor the series of mutations I posted.>On the other hand, I think the Caribbean reference to "Dabner" and reference
>to JH's wife being named "Marga" is NOT trivial, but worth following up. To
>me, that's a lot stronger evidence than conjectures about Polly Ann. So
>John -- any other Caribbean details, especially place names, that correlate
>better with Alabama than with West Virginia?(1) I must weaken my argument a bit by pointing out that MacEdward
Leach does not provide a link between the "Marga" John Henry and the
steel-driving man.  The following is quoted from near the end of the
Leach paper.  It follows discussions of Jamaican hammer songs
(similar to ours, e.g., "This Old Hammer") and a digging song that
has John Henry lusting after Cecelia and does not connect him with
anything else:"  The final illustration seems also to be from a digging song.  The
informant told me that Marga was John Henry's woman; she sold the
mule to buy and accordion (flutina).   Oh John Henry, Oh John Henry, Oh John Henry.
   Marga sell 'im mule and buy flutina.
   Oh Marga disobedient...." (finished out with repeats of these lines)"John Henry" is a very common name, and the reference here could be
to any old John Henry.  On the other hand, Leach seemed to find a lot
of Jamaicans in "the mountain region centering in Irish Town" who
recognized John Henry as a laborer who had been killed in a
construction accident.  Regardless, the song fragment does connect
the names "John Henry" and "Marga" as those of a man and his
woman/wife.(2) (a) Two "Alabama" informants mention Shea/Shay and Dabner/Dabney
as "contractors" for whom John Henry worked (Johnson).  Leon Harris,
the man who had never heard any name other than "Lucy" for John
Henry's woman, thought it likely that John Henry's "captain"'s name
was Tommy Walters, "probably and assistant foreman, however"
(Johnson).  According to C. S. Farquharson, Public Works Department,
Jamaica, "The following names are known:- Dabner, in charge of
blasting operations.  John Henry, checking up cuts and embankments.
Shea, Engineer in charge.  Tommy Walters, Assistant Pay Master"
(Chappell).Thus, "Alabama" informants give two of the same names as a Jamaican
one, and another informant gives the third Jamaican name.  Coupled
with documentation that the Chief Engineer for the Columbus &
Western, during its construction in Alabama, was Captain Frederick
Yeamans Dabney, these points of agreement give great credence to all
of these names and therefore to Dunnavant, Alabama, and the year 1887
as the place and date of John Henry's contest with a steam drill.(b) This one is a real stretch, but I'm not cautious, so here goes.
A number of American and Jamaican versions of the John Henry hammer
song include the line, "If I live to see December."  One Jamaican
version has instead, "If I live to see St. Helena."  "See December"
sounds a lot like "St. Helena," so perhaps "December" is a vestige of
"St. Helena."  "St. Helena" may be the name of several places, but
one of them is an island off the coast of South Carolina, a Gullah
stronghold.  It may be more likely that a construction worker in the
deep South would be from St. Helena, SC, than one in West Virginia.That's all I've been able to root out of Chappell's book and Leach's
article.  There might possibly be more Jamaican John Henry
information in a 1907 book by Walter Jekyll, quoted by Leach, but
I've not seen it and the hammer song that Leach quotes does not
mention John Henry, nor does an 1894 version, although the informant
said that it was known as the "John Henry song."  If it was so known
in 1894, this may be the earliest known reference to the legendary
John Henry.  1894 is a good date for the Alabama theory (an 1887
event) but it doesn't rule out West Virginia (1870-72).>Peace,
>Paul>...
>BTW another direction of change is from the particular, odd,
>excentric, individual towards the traditional, the patterned, normal.
>I.e., if "facts" get bent, they will be bent in the direction of
>(traditional) expectations.
>--
>
>David G. EngleThanks, David, for this and your opinion of the mutation scenario.Has there been an intense, systematic study of text mutations,
leading to a set of principles that could be considered to govern
them?  If so, where is it published?
--
john garst    [unmask]

Many thanks for the suggestions. I'll follow up the Bodleian via Mike
Heaney and let you know  how I get on.
Steve.

John,probably someone else will know of newer, better material, but fur me
the classic case isAnne B. Cohen
Poor Pearl, Poor Girl!  The Murdered-Girl Stereotype inn Ballad and Newspaper.
Austin & London: Univ. of Texas press, 1973.
Publications of the American Folklore Society, Memoir series, v. 58.in which she shows how several ballads about Pearl Bryan coalesced,
how the ballads -- and the newspaper acounts! -- increasingly
approached the "classic"  murdered girl plot.Good luck.  I find your sleuthing fascinating!!David
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

My mother is a Margaret, known as "Polly", for what it's worth. :-)~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, Arizona> "Maggadee" sounds a lot like "Magdalene" and a lot like "Maggie
> D."   As I sat there on our blanket (this was an outdoor concert) I
> formulated the following possible series of mutations:
>
> Maggie D
>    (from "Margaret Dabney," nee Foston, Henry Dabney's wife)
> Maggadee
>    (sounds like "Maggie D")
> Magdalene
>    (more familiar than "Maggadee" and "Maggie D")
> Mary Magdalene
>    (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
> Mary Ann
>    (more plausible and driven by rhyme)
> Polly Ann
>    ("Polly" is a nickname for "Mary.")
> xxxx Ann
>    (Use your favorite, Julie, Delia, Martha, Sary, Lucy)
> Lucy
>    (Drop "Ann" from "Lucy Ann." Must make some rhyme provision.)
>
> Many people today don't even know that "Polly" is a nickname for
> "Mary," but in the 19th century and earlier almost every "Mary" was
> known familiarly as "Polly."

> Mary Magdalene
>    (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)Anna.Peace,
Paul

On 9/17/03, Paul Stamler wrote:> > Mary Magdalene
>>    (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
>
>Anna.How about "Hospital"? :-)
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

That is most interesting.  Another acquaintance yesterday suggested
that "Polly" could be a nickname for "Margaret," but on thinking it
over he withdrew that claim, saying that he thought he had confused
it with "Mary."  Perhaps he had it right the first time!>My mother is a Margaret, known as "Polly", for what it's worth. :-)
>
>~ Becky Nankivell
>Tucson, Arizona
--
john garst    [unmask]

>  > Mary Magdalene
>>     (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
>
>Anna.
>
>Peace,
>PaulOK, Paul, who's Anna?
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<OK, Paul, who's Anna?Anna Magdalena (or Maddalena), to whom J. S. Bach dedicated a book of
compositions. Us ex-piano-players all worked our way through it taking
lessons way back when.Peace,
Paul

Try putting "Origin of Polly" into Google. Then you find the link
http://www.andythenamebender.com/name-meanings/Polly.htm which tells you
that Polly -> Molly -> Mary. For what it's worth.
As far as Becky's mother Margaret being called Polly is concerned, I have an
aunt Jane known as Pippy. Does it help? No. It's just a very human foible.
Moral: when all else fails, give up and go down to the pub (and make up a
song about it).
Cheers
Simon----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)> That is most interesting.  Another acquaintance yesterday suggested
> that "Polly" could be a nickname for "Margaret," but on thinking it
> over he withdrew that claim, saying that he thought he had confused
> it with "Mary."  Perhaps he had it right the first time!
>
> >My mother is a Margaret, known as "Polly", for what it's worth. :-)
> >
> >~ Becky Nankivell
> >Tucson, Arizona
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

On 9/17/03, John Garst wrote:>> > Mary Magdalene
>>>    (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
>>
>>Anna.
>>
>>Peace,
>>Paul
>
>OK, Paul, who's Anna?Anna Magdalena Bach. Which, since the Greek is MAGDALHNH (etas,
not epsilons), is actually closer to the correct form.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

>On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 11:40:58AM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>>
>>  <<I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
>>  Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
>>  otherwise never see.>>
>>
>>  Yup. Can't do much but I'll do what I can.
>
>         And me too, please -- Aloha, LaniAnd I'd be glad to do some, as well.David
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
John Garst, writes:> That is most interesting.  Another acquaintance yesterday suggested
> that "Polly" could be a nickname for "Margaret," but on thinking it
> over he withdrew that claim, saying that he thought he had confused
> it with "Mary."  Perhaps he had it right the first time!Says the American Heritage Dictionary s.v. Polly:  A feminine given name.  [Variant of Molly, pet form for Mary.]Hard to go wrong.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Clowns, not clones.  :||

I've got a little girl who's just started at my school called Holly Polly-
presumably the Mary/Molly/Polly is part of the same human attraction to
rhyme?Ruairidh----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Fineman" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: What's in a name?> Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
> John Garst, writes:
>
> > That is most interesting.  Another acquaintance yesterday suggested
> > that "Polly" could be a nickname for "Margaret," but on thinking it
> > over he withdrew that claim, saying that he thought he had confused
> > it with "Mary."  Perhaps he had it right the first time!
>
> Says the American Heritage Dictionary s.v. Polly:
>
>   A feminine given name.  [Variant of Molly, pet form for Mary.]
>
> Hard to go wrong.
> --
> ---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
> ||:  Clowns, not clones.  :||
>

As a genealogist, I've seen the usual list of "common" nicknames:
Molly and Polly for Mary
Peggy for Margaret
Nancy for Agnes, Ann or Hannah
Nel for Helen, Eleanor or EllenI have a friend who AGONIZES over the fact that he gave his son the WRONG
name, because they've always called him "Nat" when, according to those who
know (whomever THEY might be) he should rightfully be called "Nate."  Such
is the snob distinguishment between Nathan (Nate) and Nathaniel (Nat).
Which doesn't explain how (in this same peer group) Carter became "Binky"
or Ellen became "Muffy."And I've often seen unusual given names massacred into something more
common, through sheer ignorance.  Talitha became Tabitha.  Oliffe
(admittedly, an unusual female name) became Alice, with "nothing further
found" about her because she is rightfully named in later wills by her real
name of Oliffe!So tracing real people through possible permeations of names is risky, at
best. If you MUST rely on this method, stick with the OLDEST KNOWN VERSION,
as it's the least likely to be massacred.  Unless, of course, the author
made up a name, not having known the real name. . .Edie Gale Hays
[unmask]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:15:35 +0100, Simon Furey
<[unmask]> wrote:>Surprise, surprise...I'm going for this...among a few score other people I
>guess...
>Thanks for the heads-up, Dolores
>Simon...well, I didn't get it. It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
Is it a record for a Bronson volume?
Simon

One point about this thing, should I decide to go ahead and transcribe
it.  It has bass lines.From the ones I've looked at, they never add anything interesting to
the melody and can be bumblingly incompetent.Does anybody have a real use for them, or will the bare melody lines do?Here's an example, from the 17th century part of the collection.  The
bass doesn't do a lot for me in musical terms, and it doesn't look to
me at all like a 17th century arrangement, so it can't have that much
historical interest, can it?  (You'll need a recent version of BarFly
or abcm2ps to process this as is; I've used some newish ABC constructs).X:1
T:The bonny brow or In January last
S:Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578) p1
N:Blaikie #2
M:2/4
L:1/16
V:1 midi program 1 74
V:2 midi program 1 46 bass middle = d transpose -24
K:F
[V:1] f2|c3A    GAGF | F4 C4  |D<FFG A2G2|G4    d2ef|c2A2 GAGF|FGAF C3C |DEF2 G2`A2|c6   ||
[V:2] z2|F4     f4   | F4 A4  |B4   =B4  |c4    z4  |F4   f4  |f4   a4  |b2a2`g2`f2|c6   ||
%
[V:1] c2|B3c    dcd_e|_e4 defd|cdcA  GAGF|G6      f2|c3A  GAGF|F4   C2C2|CDF2 A2`c2|f6   |]
[V:2] z2|d'2c'2`b2g2 | a4 b4  |a2f2``e3d |c2c'2`c2z2|F4   f4  |a2f2`a2f2|b2a2`c'2c2|f4 F2|]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.

At 03:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
>wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
>Is it a record for a Bronson volume?It seems like they usually go for $200 - $400.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Well why in heaven's name don't they reprint them? If they're consistently going for $200-400, I'd think that it would behoove some smart publisher to run another series, even a small one.And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread, after looking through 73 versions of "Pretty Polly", I found only Mary/Molly/Polly connections, no Margarets, Magdelenas, or other permutations. "Willie", the murderer in the standard version of the song, is often William or even John or Johnny, but Polly/Molly/Mary is constant, even when the variant is called "Molly, Pretty Polly."Beth Brooks>>> [unmask] 09/19/03 07:49 AM >>>
At 03:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
>wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
>Is it a record for a Bronson volume?It seems like they usually go for $200 - $400.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Bare melody lines are fine for me.dick greenhausJack Campin wrote:>One point about this thing, should I decide to go ahead and transcribe
>it.  It has bass lines.
>
>>From the ones I've looked at, they never add anything interesting to
>the melody and can be bumblingly incompetent.
>
>Does anybody have a real use for them, or will the bare melody lines do?
>
>Here's an example, from the 17th century part of the collection.  The
>bass doesn't do a lot for me in musical terms, and it doesn't look to
>me at all like a 17th century arrangement, so it can't have that much
>historical interest, can it?  (You'll need a recent version of BarFly
>or abcm2ps to process this as is; I've used some newish ABC constructs).
>
>X:1
>T:The bonny brow or In January last
>S:Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578) p1
>N:Blaikie #2
>M:2/4
>L:1/16
>V:1 midi program 1 74
>V:2 midi program 1 46 bass middle = d transpose -24
>K:F
>[V:1] f2|c3A    GAGF | F4 C4  |D<FFG A2G2|G4    d2ef|c2A2 GAGF|FGAF C3C |DEF2 G2`A2|c6   ||
>[V:2] z2|F4     f4   | F4 A4  |B4   =B4  |c4    z4  |F4   f4  |f4   a4  |b2a2`g2`f2|c6   ||
>%
>[V:1] c2|B3c    dcd_e|_e4 defd|cdcA  GAGF|G6      f2|c3A  GAGF|F4   C2C2|CDF2 A2`c2|f6   |]
>[V:2] z2|d'2c'2`b2g2 | a4 b4  |a2f2``e3d |c2c'2`c2z2|F4   f4  |a2f2`a2f2|b2a2`c'2c2|f4 F2|]
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
><http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.
>
>
>

I read your comment about names and nickname snobbery with interest.  My sister Margaret's friends took to calling her "Mags" which horrified my Grandmother.   According to my grandmother.  "Mags" was  a name only given to hired help.Liz in New Hampshire-----Original Message-----
From: Edie Gale Hays [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:43 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: What's in a name?As a genealogist, I've seen the usual list of "common" nicknames:
Molly and Polly for Mary
Peggy for Margaret
Nancy for Agnes, Ann or Hannah
Nel for Helen, Eleanor or EllenI have a friend who AGONIZES over the fact that he gave his son the WRONG
name, because they've always called him "Nat" when, according to those who
know (whomever THEY might be) he should rightfully be called "Nate."  Such
is the snob distinguishment between Nathan (Nate) and Nathaniel (Nat).
Which doesn't explain how (in this same peer group) Carter became "Binky"
or Ellen became "Muffy."And I've often seen unusual given names massacred into something more
common, through sheer ignorance.  Talitha became Tabitha.  Oliffe
(admittedly, an unusual female name) became Alice, with "nothing further
found" about her because she is rightfully named in later wills by her real
name of Oliffe!So tracing real people through possible permeations of names is risky, at
best. If you MUST rely on this method, stick with the OLDEST KNOWN VERSION,
as it's the least likely to be massacred.  Unless, of course, the author
made up a name, not having known the real name. . .Edie Gale Hays
[unmask]

Beth:Good news.  There is in the works a digital edition of Bronson.And while I prefer books over discs, I would guess that Princeton does not feel it can print and sell 1,000 copies of each of the four volumes.  (They would need at least that number to break even.)Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 19, 2003 6:20 am
Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!> Well why in heaven's name don't they reprint them? If they're consistently
> going for $200-400, I'd think that it would behoove some smart publisher
> to run another series, even a small one.
>
> And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread, after looking through 73 versions
> of "Pretty Polly", I found only Mary/Molly/Polly connections, no
> Margarets, Magdelenas, or other permutations. "Willie", the murderer in
> the standard version of the song, is often William or even John or Johnny,
> but Polly/Molly/Mary is constant, even when the variant is called "Molly,
> Pretty Polly."
>
> Beth Brooks
>
> >>> [unmask] 09/19/03 07:49 AM >>>
> At 03:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
> >wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
> >Is it a record for a Bronson volume?
>
> It seems like they usually go for $200 - $400.
>
> Paul Garon
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

Hi!        This auction appeared on Ebay late yesterday.        3552853966 - Traditional tunes of the Child Ballads by Bronson,
4 volumes, 1959-1972, $200 (ends Sep-25-03 12:36:50 PDT)                        Happy Bidding!
                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
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