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Subject: Braes of Balquither: Evolution in 200 + years
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 03:42:00 -0400
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How do we get from the first tune below to Francis McPeake's
"Will you go lassie go"? Evolution.X:1
T:The Braes of Balquhidder
S:David Young, 1740. Bodleian MS Don. d.54
Q:1/=120
L:1/8
M:C|
K:Aphrygian
c2|(A/c/d) Fc A2 Ac|(A/c/d) Fc AGGc|\
dFcF A2 Ac|defc A/A/A A:|\
c|defc A/A/A ag|fd"tr"cA cGGc|defd "tr"cAag|\
a/g/f/e/ fc A/A/A Ac|def A/A/A ag|\
fd"tr"cA cGGA|FCC FGAa|(agfe f)c A2A:|]Here's what Jack Campin discovered, song and tune:The Braes o' Bowhether.Now the day's growin' lang lass,
an' sweet shines the weather,
an' we'll owre a' the hills,
to the Braes o' Bowhether.
Amang the Glens an' Rashy dens,
I'll prize thee without measure,
Within my arms, wi' a' thy charms,
I'll clasp my lovely treasure,
In sweetest Love, our time will move,
wi' mair than earthly pleasure;
By the little limpid streams,
On the Braes o' Bowhether.An' I'll ay loe thee dearly,
Ilk day wes' forgather,
Syne we'll row on the fog,
By the Braes o' Bowhether;
To Pipe or Flute, when time will suit,
We'll dance like ony feather,
An', skip the knowes where Claver grows,
Or stray amang the Heather;
Ay free frae strife in sic a life,
There, weary shall we never,
By the limpid little streams,
On the Braes o' Bowhether.X:2
T:The Braes o' Bowhether
S:John Hamilton, 24 Scots Songs, 1796
N:H is not standard ABC yet; it means a fermata, sic-
N:bars 6 and 8 are too long (2nd to last notes length 2 instead?)
Z:Jack Campin
Q:1/4=120
M:C
L:1/8
K:F
"Slow"
A/ c/|d2 F> G A A> z c| d2  F> G A <G z/(G/A/)c/|\
d2 F> G| (AG) A> c|(d>e)  f> d   (c/A/  A2)   ||\
c |d> e f d c> A a> g| f d  c> A  (A/G/) G3 c/|\
d> e f  d   c> A a> g| f> e (d/e/) (f/d/) (c/A/) A3 c/|\
d> e f  d   c> A a> g| f> d (d/c/) (B/A/) (A/G/) G2   A/G/|\
F> D C> D  (F>G)  A> c|(d>e) (g/f/) (e/d/) (c/A/  A2)  |]Robert Tannahil seems to have known a bit of the old song, but
not it's tune. From Graham's 'Songs of Scotland' we get
Tannahill's "The Braes of Balquhidder'Will you go lassie, go,
To the Braes o' Balquhidder?
Where the blaeberries grow,
'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather;
Where the deer and the rae,
Lightly bounding together,
Sport the lang summer day
'Mang the braes o' Balquhidder,
[Cho:] Will you go lassie go,
To the braes o' Balquhidder?
Where the blaeberries grow,
'Mang the bonnie bloomin' heather.[3 more verses]Graham said the tune was in Capt. Fraser's 'Highland Melodies',
1816, #77, with slight differenes from that (later) in R. A.
Smith's 'Scottish Minstrel' I, p. 49 (I don't have).Capt. Fraser's is:Bochuidear      Balquhidder. As performed by Major LoganX:3
T:Bochuidear
S:Capt. Fraser's Highland Melodies [reprint]
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:C
K:F
c|{A/c/}d2 F3/2c/ A2 A3/2c/|{A/c/}d2 F3/2c/ AGGc|\
{A/c/}d2 F3/2c/ A2 Ac|d3/2e/{d/e/}f3/2d/ cA A:|\
c|d3/2e/ {d/e/}f3/2d/ c/A3/2 {c/}a3/2g/|\
f3/2c/ d/c/B/A/ AGGc|d3/2e/ {d/e/}f3/2d/ c/A3/2 {c/}a3/2g/|\
f/d3/2) {d/e/}f3/2d/ c3/2A/Ac|\
d3/2e/ {d/e/}f3/2d/ c/A3/2 {c/}a3/2g/|\
f3/2c/ (d/c/)(B/A/) AGG (A/G/)|F3/2E/D3/2E/ F3/2G/A3/2c/|\
d3/2e/ {d/e/}f3/2d/ cAA|]I suspect all here know Francis McPeake's version. I quit here.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Braes of Balquither: Evolution in 200 + years
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:16:58 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> How do we get from the first tune below to Francis McPeake's
> "Will you go lassie go"? Evolution.
>
> X:1
> T:The Braes of Balquhidder
> S:David Young, 1740. Bodleian MS Don. d.54> Bruce OlsonAbove with dance calls of 1740, Tannahill's and McPeake's text given
complete are now in Scarce Song 2 file on my website. ABCs are in S2.ABC
for easier play, and ABC of "Braes of Balquither" from
'Scots Music Museum', 1788, added.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie's traditional tunes fom Jack's list
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 10:42:02 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>I'm trying to think up a way to make my progress available
without clogging Ballad-L with numerous notes here. The best I've
come up with is make a file on my website, and annouce
'significant' progress. There are a lot of Child ballad tunes
there, that probably can't be tied to any particular text.Some of the odd ones we'll have to rely on Murray Shoolbraid or
Grieg-Duncan collection to figure out, if we're ever going to, that is.30 Go to the windward my love (Beautiful)
If you'll buy 'window' for 'windward', we've got a very old night
visit song. Simpson's BBBM, tune= #162, (ABC on my website) gives
long discussion, mentioning Baskerville's 'Elizabeth Jig', but
Baskerville also wrote an article 'English Songs of the Night
Visit', which I copied many years ago, but forgot to note what
journal it came from. PMLA most likely.74 Niddlety noddlety. Probably "Robin a-Thrush" version of Child
ballad of wife wrapted in wedderskin.87 cold winter Roud #583. Broadsides (Curragh of Kildare) and
traditional (Cold winter...) J. Oswald printed tune in bk 10 of
CPC, c 1759.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie's traditional tunes, proposed identifications
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:22:01 -0400
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Now on my website at the end of section 1 is a click-on to file
BLAIKREF.TXT to follow progress in Identifying Andrew Blaikie's
traditional tunes.If you want to propose an identification then email it to me,
and I'll enter it and credit it to you in the file, but please not
all at once.Steve Roud's folksong index doesn't cover printed or manuscript
music sources, so I've entered at #87 the tune titles reference
to "Curragh of Kildare" in my Irish tune index. Search through
Irish tune index file, as it has a nominal cut-off date of 1864
(just before Petrie died) for numbered items, and later items,
like Joyce's 4 verses and tune in OIFMS, and O'Neill's tune in
'Music of Ireland' are further down the file.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 11:54:34 -0400
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Hi!        This appeared this morning. The seller seems to have a lot of
interesting books and I have been watching his listings everyday.        3551384957 - Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads Vol 4 by
Bronson, 1972, $49 (ends Sep-18-03 19:56:39 PDT)                        Happy Bidding!
                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:15:35 +0100
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Surprise, surprise...I'm going for this...among a few score other people I
guess...
Thanks for the heads-up, Dolores
Simon

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 14:44:00 -0700
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Any idea of what the total cost would be?
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:45 AM
Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> Folks:
>
> I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
otherwise never see.
>
> Ed
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
> Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 0:09 am
> Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
>
> > > This is very valuable, especially as it early dates the tunes given.
> > > Motherwell printed some of the tunes, but is there any effort afoot
> > > to print the entire manuscript?
> >
> > Not unless I do it, I guess.  I had in mind publishing a few Scottish
> > MSS on CD-ROM using the same technology I've already used, but hadn't
> > thought of this one; it would be a couple of weeks' work and only
> > feasible if I could find some funding for it, as it's hardly going to
> > sell in huge numbers.
> >
> >
> > > Can it be copied/Xeroxed/scanned?
> >
> > Yes, but it won't be cheap.  There are microfilms about; these will
> > lose the pencil annotations (you've got my transcriptions of them,
> > anyway) but the music calligraphy is clear enough for microfilming,
> > the binding lies flat, and I don't remember seeing a single correction
> > or ambiguous pitch that might need close-up physical examination to
> > sort out.
> >
> > www.nls.uk will give reprographic prices somewhere.  Since they've
> > already microfilmed it, second-generation copies might be cheaper.
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
> > --
> > Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131
6604760
> > <" target="l">http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food
intolerance
> > data & recipes,
> > Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro,
Embro".
> > ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please.
<-
> > --
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 17:20:08 -0700
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Norm:I do not.  So far, I have noted five people willing to part with hard currency for such a CD: Dick Greenhaus, Paul Stamler, Bruce Olson, Lani Herrman and myself.  You would be the sixth.Note that I am asking Jack directly -- as well as tickling the ballad-l list once more.  Hey, you shake the tree and you never know what will fall out.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 12, 2003 2:44 pm
Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> Any idea of what the total cost would be?
> Norm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:45 AM
> Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
>
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
> Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
> otherwise never see.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
> > Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 0:09 am
> > Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
> >
> > > > This is very valuable, especially as it early dates the tunes given.
> > > > Motherwell printed some of the tunes, but is there any effort afoot
> > > > to print the entire manuscript?
> > >
> > > Not unless I do it, I guess.  I had in mind publishing a few Scottish
> > > MSS on CD-ROM using the same technology I've already used, but hadn't
> > > thought of this one; it would be a couple of weeks' work and only
> > > feasible if I could find some funding for it, as it's hardly going to
> > > sell in huge numbers.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Can it be copied/Xeroxed/scanned?
> > >
> > > Yes, but it won't be cheap.  There are microfilms about; these will
> > > lose the pencil annotations (you've got my transcriptions of them,
> > > anyway) but the music calligraphy is clear enough for microfilming,
> > > the binding lies flat, and I don't remember seeing a single correction
> > > or ambiguous pitch that might need close-up physical examination to
> > > sort out.
> > >
> > > www.nls.uk will give reprographic prices somewhere.  Since they've
> > > already microfilmed it, second-generation copies might be cheaper.
> > >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> -
> > > --
> > > Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131
> 6604760
> > > <" target="l">" target="l">http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *
> foodintolerance
> > > data & recipes,
> > > Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro,
> Embro".
> > > ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please.
> <-
> > > --
> > >
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 12 Sep 2003 23:08:01 -0700
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OK, keep me (us) posted.  And keep your umbrella handy.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> Norm:
>
> I do not.  So far, I have noted five people willing to part with hard
currency for such a CD: Dick Greenhaus, Paul Stamler, Bruce Olson, Lani
Herrman and myself.  You would be the sixth.
>
> Note that I am asking Jack directly -- as well as tickling the ballad-l
list once more.  Hey, you shake the tree and you never know what will fall
out.
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 13 Sep 2003 11:26:36 +0100
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<snip>his listings</snip>I have bought a number of the books from this person.He is a she Dolores!!Regards,Dave

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Subject: Lusty Beggars
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 13 Sep 2003 18:25:57 -0400
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Prof. Child, ESPB, gave as his #279 the Scottish ballad, "The
Jolly Beggar", which I've added to the earlier (and un expurgated) "The
Politick
Beggar-Man" text in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website.In it the young woman was seduced by the beggar, and when he is
ready to leave, he leaves her money for the nurses fee, then off
he starts with his four-and-twenty belted knights
In my notes there you will find reference to a traditional
sequel, where the four-and-twenty are 'jugglers' (ghiberlain =
beggar, gaberlunzie) first published in 1997.I've added an ABC of the tune "The Beggars Meal Pokes" from J.
Oswald's CPC, c 1758. Oswald attributed the tune to King James
6th.In Walsh's 'British Musical Miscellany', I, p. 50, [1734],
we find "The Gaberlunzie Man" tune attributed to King James 5th.
The usual tune for "The Gaberlunzie Man" has now turned up in the
Balcarres Lute MS, c 1700, so the song and tune are a little
older than previously thought.Bruce Olson
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 13 Sep 2003 19:07:37 -0400
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At 11:26 AM 9/13/03 +0100, you wrote:>He is a she Dolores!!If he is a she Dolores, then is she a He Dolores??I'm getting confused....
Lisa

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 13 Sep 2003 20:55:56 -0400
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Lisa - S. H. wrote:
>
> At 11:26 AM 9/13/03 +0100, you wrote:
>
> >He is a she Dolores!!
>
> If he is a she Dolores, then is she a He Dolores??
>
> I'm getting confused....
> LisaLet's clear up one point. Dolores is cetainly not a he. If she weren't
married to a friend of mine (on Ballad-L) I'd be after her, but she and
Don found each other before I got there.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.Dolorews erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage
(= subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 14 Sep 2003 00:01:19 -0700
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Folks:Oh, migod!  Our first love triangle, mayhap quadrangle!I don't think an old man's heart can take all this in.Complicating Bruce's innocent message, below, is the fact that I love Dolores too.  Who could not, given her ebay postings.Don Nichols, look to your laurels.  Dolores, don't you just love all these randy old men bidding for your favor?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, September 13, 2003 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!> Lisa - S. H. wrote:
> >
> > At 11:26 AM 9/13/03 +0100, you wrote:
> >
> > >He is a she Dolores!!
> >
> > If he is a she Dolores, then is she a He Dolores??
> >
> > I'm getting confused....
> > Lisa
>
> Let's clear up one point. Dolores is cetainly not a he. If she weren't
> married to a friend of mine (on Ballad-L) I'd be after her, but she and
> Don found each other before I got there.
>
> Bruce Olson
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> http://www.Dolorews erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage
> (= subject index)
>

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 14 Sep 2003 12:16:18 -0400
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edward cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> Oh, migod!  Our first love triangle, mayhap quadrangle!
>
> I don't think an old man's heart can take all this in.
>
> Complicating Bruce's innocent message, below, is the fact that I love Dolores too.  Who could not, given her ebay postings.
>
> Don Nichols, look to your laurels.  Dolores, don't you just love all these randy old men bidding for your favor?
>
> Ed
>
Having no doubt embarrassed mid-mannered, modest, and self-
effacing Dolores, to even things up I now do the same to her husband,
with the same traits.
I think I first met them about August, or a month or two later,
in 1976, when I got modestly involved in FSGW (at fsgw.org).
A gossip who was around earlier than me told me that when Don
showed up there were several single women that thought he was a prize.
We know who got the prize.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 14 Sep 2003 13:15:49 -0400
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On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 12:16:18PM -0400, Bruce Olson wrote:        [ ... ]> Having no doubt embarrassed mid-mannered, modest, and self-
> effacing Dolores, to even things up I now do the same to her husband,
> with the same traits.
> I think I first met them about August, or a month or two later,
> in 1976, when I got modestly involved in FSGW (at fsgw.org).
> A gossip who was around earlier than me told me that when Don
> showed up there were several single women that thought he was a prize.        I wish that I'd known about that then. :-) (I wasn't good at
reading such interest.)> We know who got the prize.        And I believe that I got the *real* prize.  Dolores and I have
been a very good fit together.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

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Subject: Bonny Dundee to Blue Bells of Scotland
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:42:33 -0400
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From the broadside ballad index on my website:Where got'st thou the Haver-mill Bonack/ ZN2902| Bonny Dundee:
Or, Jockey's Deliverance, being his Valiant Escape from Dundee
And the Parson's Daughter, whom he had Mow'd/ Tune: Bonny Dundee/
Licensed according to Order/ P5 262 = CR 1334: Charles Bates,
White Heart/ RB8 453: [not given, but apparently 18th cent.]
[With music in `Pills' V, 17, 1719.] Charles Bates, printer of the
earliest copy, printed ballads from 1690 to c 1702.Nigel Gatherer gave a copy as #28 in his 'Songs and Ballad of
Dundee', 1986.In the Scarce Songs 2 file on my website, I gave fragments from
Herd and SMM and the Greig-Duncan collection that suggested that
there was a later sequel sung by Jenny, the minster's daughter
that Jockey had mowed between St. Johnston and Bonny Dundee, and
the first verse of the 'Jockey's Escape' ballad was a corrupted
verse from the sequel.This made a song given by C. K. Sharpe from the Mansfield/ St.
Clair MS in 'SMM Addl. Illustrations' a version of the sequel.I just discovered that "Scots Callan to Bonny Dundee", #58, in
Nigel's book is a relatively recent traditional version of this
sequel.The well known tune, as "Adew Dundie", goes back to the Skene MS.
There are widely varying estimates of the date of the manuscript,
and I've been through every page of it, but could come up with
nothing new.What happened later to our "Jockey" ballad is also interesting,
as the original song and tune gradually got lost we have a new
version of "Jockey's Escape":From Ritson, "Highland Laddie":Oh where, and oh where does your Highland laddie dwell
He lives in merry Scotland, at the sign of the Blue BellWhich takes us to two versions of "The Blue Bells of Scotland"
See texts in the Scarce Songs 2 file on my website.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Bonny Dundee to Blue Bells of Scotland
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:19:35 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>
> This made a song given by C. K. Sharpe from the Mansfield/ St.
> Clair MS in 'SMM Addl. Illustrations' a version of the sequel.
>
> I just discovered that "Scots Callan to Bonny Dundee", #58, in
> Nigel's book is a relatively recent traditional version of this
> sequel.
>
>Jockey gets changed into Robin Rattle,
but Jenny remains in this third song
of our series.O Saw ye Jenny Nettles;
Jenny Nettles, Jenny Nettles.
Saw ye Jenny Nettles,
Coming frae the market:
Wi' Bag and baggage on her back,
Her fee and bountith in her lap,
wi' Bag and baggage on her back,
And a babie in her oxterI met ayont the kairny
Jenny Nettles, Jenny Nettles;
Singing till her bairny,
Robin Rattles bastard:
To flee the dool upo' the stool,
And ilka snf that mocks her,
She round about seeks Robin out,
To stap it in his oxter.Fy, fy, Robin Rattle
Robin Rattle, Robin Rattle,
Fy, fy, Robin Rattle
Use Jenny Nettles kindly;
Score out the blame, and shun the shame,
And without mair debate o't,
Tak hame your wean, make Jenny fain.
The leel and leesome gate o't.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 14 Sep 2003 22:16:56 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 12:01:19AM -0700, edward cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> Oh, migod!  Our first love triangle, mayhap quadrangle!
>
> I don't think an old man's heart can take all this in.
>
> Complicating Bruce's innocent message, below, is the fact that I love
>Dolores too.  Who could not, given her ebay postings.
>
> Don Nichols, look to your laurels.  Dolores, don't you just love all
>these randy old men bidding for your favor?
>
> Ed
>
Ed & Bruce,        Thank You! I am embarrassed and flattered beyond words! May I
return the compliments by saying that you are both outstanding gentlemen
and scholars. It is an honor and pleasure to know both of you.                                        Dolores>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
> Date: Saturday, September 13, 2003 5:55 pm
> Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
>
> > Lisa - S. H. wrote:
> > >
> > > At 11:26 AM 9/13/03 +0100, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >He is a she Dolores!!
> > >
> > > If he is a she Dolores, then is she a He Dolores??
> > >
> > > I'm getting confused....
> > > Lisa
> >
> > Let's clear up one point. Dolores is cetainly not a he. If she weren't
> > married to a friend of mine (on Ballad-L) I'd be after her, but she and
> > Don found each other before I got there.
> >
> > Bruce Olson
> > --
> > Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> > and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> > http://www.Dolorews erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage
> > (= subject index)
> >
>
---end quoted text-----
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: More Billet-doux
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 14 Sep 2003 20:45:55 -0700
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On Sepotember 14, a bemused Dolores Nichols wrote:        Thank You! I am embarrassed and flattered beyond words! May I
return the compliments by saying that you are both outstanding gentlemen
and scholars. It is an honor and pleasure to know both of you.                                        DoloresTo which Ed Cray replies:I wouldn't be too sure of that.

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Subject: Gavin Greig
From: Nigel Gatherer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:40:43 +0100
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As I find out more, I'm more impressed by Gavin Greig. I first
encountered him as a song collector, and as each astonishing volume of
the Greig-Duncan Collection was published, it became apparent to me
what a giant that collection is.I was surprised a little later to see that he had edited instrumental
collections from Scots fiddler James Scott Skinner (as well as writing
an essay on "The Strathspey" in The Harp & Claymore" collection,
displaying a knowledge and appreciation of Scottish fiddle music and
Scottish music in general).Now, as I've been researching Scottish singer Tom Morrison [1] I
discover him as a playwright. Morrison and monologuist Dufton Scott
appeared in Greig's comedy drama "Mains's Wooin'" in 1921 (I have
placed a handbill for this performance on my web site at
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/perf/singers1/tomm/mains.html
). A little more digging has revealed that Greig wrote poetry, an
operetta, at least two novels, and at least two plays (The above
mentioned "Mains's Wooin'" and a sequel, "Mains Again"). I don't know
the novels, but apparently they're "centred round blackmail, larceny
and murder in the 'shilling shocker' mould" [2].Well, I didn't know that![1] = Morrison would be of little interest in the field of ballads; he
wrote and performed humorous songs in Scots character barely related to
traditional forms.
[2] = Newspaper clipping from Edinburgh Evening News, mid-1980s--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:46:24 -0400
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Norm Cohen wrote:
>
> OK, keep me (us) posted.  And keep your umbrella handy.
> Norm
>I've added a few more identifications of songs to go with the
traditional tunes in Andrew Blaiikle's MS, NLS MS.1578, and I've
added a few more Roud numbers. There is now a date at the
beginning of the file of these on my website, BLAIKREF.TXT, so
one may see if anything has been added since you last looked at
it.However, the vast majority of identifications will have to wait
until we have the tunes from the manuscript in hand, so we can
check to see if a suggested song title leads us any particular
text that actually fits the tune.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Gavin Greig
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:24:01 -0400
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Nigel Gatherer wrote:
>
> As I find out more, I'm more impressed by Gavin Greig. I first
> encountered him as a song collector, and as each astonishing volume of
> the Greig-Duncan Collection was published, it became apparent to me
> what a giant that collection is.
>
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, ScotlandNigel, have you noticed all the old songs (without tunes) that
were sent to Gavin Greig by mail from Miss Bell Robertson? She
claimed her mother sang many old ballads and songs, and Bell
learned all her verses, but Bell apparently never learned to sing
a one of them. I'm very suspicious that many of Bell's 'old'
ballads may have been Bell's own creations.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: More Billet-doux
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:06:38 -0400
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edward cray wrote:
>
> On Sepotember 14, a bemused Dolores Nichols wrote:
>
>         Thank You! I am embarrassed and flattered beyond words! May I
> return the compliments by saying that you are both outstanding gentlemen
> and scholars. It is an honor and pleasure to know both of you.
>
>                                         Dolores
>
> To which Ed Cray replies:
>
> I wouldn't be too sure of that.Yeah, but you're 3000 miles away, and I'm only a little over a 30 minute
drive away, so Don had better keep on eye on her (of course he does,
risk losing her by his inattention, impossible).Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re: Gavin Greig
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:31:18 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Nigel Gatherer wrote:
> >
> > As I find out more, I'm more impressed by Gavin Greig. I first
> > encountered him as a song collector, and as each astonishing volume of
> > the Greig-Duncan Collection was published, it became apparent to me
> > what a giant that collection is.
> >
> > Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
>
> Nigel, have you noticed all the old songs (without tunes) that
> were sent to Gavin Greig by mail from Miss Bell Robertson?I should have added that the lack of tunes for Bell Robertson's songs
isn't the only reason for my suspicions about the authenticity of some
of them, but it would take a lot of rereading, and a grest deal of space
here to point out the places where I think several songs might be for
the most part fabricated.Bruce Olson
 --
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Gavin Greig
From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:38:58 +0100
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Nigel,There are two copies of Murmurings Fra Ury on the web viahttp://used.addall.com/Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nigel Gatherer" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 2:40 PM
Subject: Gavin Greig> As I find out more, I'm more impressed by Gavin Greig. I first
> encountered him as a song collector, and as each astonishing volume of
> the Greig-Duncan Collection was published, it became apparent to me
> what a giant that collection is.
>
> I was surprised a little later to see that he had edited instrumental
> collections from Scots fiddler James Scott Skinner (as well as writing
> an essay on "The Strathspey" in The Harp & Claymore" collection,
> displaying a knowledge and appreciation of Scottish fiddle music and
> Scottish music in general).
>
> Now, as I've been researching Scottish singer Tom Morrison [1] I
> discover him as a playwright. Morrison and monologuist Dufton Scott
> appeared in Greig's comedy drama "Mains's Wooin'" in 1921 (I have
> placed a handbill for this performance on my web site at
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/perf/singers1/tomm/mains.html
> ). A little more digging has revealed that Greig wrote poetry, an
> operetta, at least two novels, and at least two plays (The above
> mentioned "Mains's Wooin'" and a sequel, "Mains Again"). I don't know
> the novels, but apparently they're "centred round blackmail, larceny
> and murder in the 'shilling shocker' mould" [2].
>
> Well, I didn't know that!
>
> [1] = Morrison would be of little interest in the field of ballads; he
> wrote and performed humorous songs in Scots character barely related to
> traditional forms.
> [2] = Newspaper clipping from Edinburgh Evening News, mid-1980s
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> [unmask]
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
>
>

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Subject: Wandering Minstrel
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 15:06:15 -0500
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Hi, A desperate request after much searching, including the British Library.
In the 1830s Gilbert A Beckett and Henry Mayhew (yes, that Henry Mayhew)
got together to write a comedietta celled The Wandering Minstrel which
apparently was very popular in the 1850s with a comic of the stature of
Fred Robson in it. I have several copies of the earlier burlesqued folk
songs which were incorporated into the 1850s version but I'm damned if I
can get hold of a copy of the libretto. It has Giles Collins and Villikins
and Lord Lovell all as cousins incorporated, and Billy Taylor and probably
others. sam Cowell may also have been involved briefly on his return from
America.  Any suggestions?
Steve.

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Subject: Re: Wandering Minstrel
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:52:16 +0100
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> A desperate request after much searching, including the British Library.
> In the 1830s Gilbert A Beckett and Henry Mayhew (yes, that Henry Mayhew)
> got together to write a comedietta celled The Wandering Minstrel which
> apparently was very popular in the 1850s with a comic of the stature of
> Fred Robson in it. I have several copies of the earlier burlesqued folk
> songs which were incorporated into the 1850s version but I'm damned if I
> can get hold of a copy of the libretto. It has Giles Collins and Villikins
> and Lord Lovell all as cousins incorporated, and Billy Taylor and probably
> others. sam Cowell may also have been involved briefly on his return from
> America.  Any suggestions?www.nls.uk lists two editions, 1855 and 1896.The best place in the world for this sort of thing is probably the
Harding Collection at the Bodleian Library, but the Bodleian's
on-line cataloguing sucks with such unparalleled vacuity that if
you can't get to Oxford, forget it.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Re: Gavin Greig
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Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:57:39 EDT
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Subject: Re Mayhew Wandering Minstrel
From: [unmask]
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Subject: Re: Wandering Minstrel
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:55:18 -0400
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Jack Campin wrote:
>>
> The best place in the world for this sort of thing is probably the
> Harding Collection at the Bodleian Library, but the Bodleian's
> on-line cataloguing sucks with such unparalleled vacuity that if
> you can't get to Oxford, forget it.
>
>When W. N. H. Harding owned the collection, he had it in Chicago,
Illinois, USA, where, it appears, it was equally unaccessible.
Old CBEL lists his songbooks (as Poetical Miscallanies) [I have xerox in
case anyone wants more precise info on CBEL listing], but nothing else
he had.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Gavin Greig
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:13:25 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:40:01 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      I don't know
>      the novels, but apparently they're "centred round blackmail,
>      larceny
>      and murder in the 'shilling shocker' mould"
>
> I have what must be another of his novels: "Logie O' Buchan - An
> Aberdeenshire Pastoral" republished in 1985 by James G Bisset Ltd.,
> Aberdeen - from the 1899 publication. It's described in the
> Introduction to the new printing (by William Donaldson) as "a tale of
> Jacobite intrugue and romance set in the north-eastjust after the '45
> featuring the exploits of a real-life figure, George Halket,
> schoolmaster of Rathen and Cairnbulg, who was traditionally thought to
> have written the song which gives the book its title." It fit
> appeared as a serial in the Buchan Observer (didn't everything?) from
> 7 Dec 1897 to 19 April 1898 and was then published in a limited
> edition of 500 in 1899 by Wylie of Abredeen. The Introduction gives
> fairly full details of the other works Nigel mentioned.
>
> John MouldenIf Lady Anne Lindsay didn't write the song "Logie of Buchan" then
(second hand from John Glen's 'Early Scottish Melodies', then, according
to Peter Buchan, it was written by George Halket in 1736-7, prior to the
rebellion of '45. [Song and tune in SMM #358]Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Ebay List - 09/15/03
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:25:14 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Hi!        Here I am again! This week we have a lot of interesting books.
(and interesting weather if you can use that adjective for a hurricane.)        SONGSTERS        3242008182 - MERCHANT'S GARGLING OIL SONGSTER, $29.99 (Ends
Sep-17-03 08:00:29 PDT)        3626980171 - RINGLING BROS. WORLD'S GREATEST SHOWS SONGBOOK,
1906, $0.99 (Ends Sep-20-03 18:59:47 PDT)        2558549223 - BACK TO THE ONLY GIRL I LOVE SONGSTER, 1896, $4.99
(ends Sep-21-03 17:32:27 PDT)        3626734632 - J B Doris' Great Inter-Ocean Circus and Menagerie -
Merchant's Gargling Oil Liniment Songster, $9.95 (ends Sep-21-03
19:37:08 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2557345644 - Cambrian Minstrelsie by Parry, 1893, 7.99 GBP (ends
Sep-16-03 14:36:13 PDT)        3551362672 - German Texana by Jordan, $9.95 (ends Sep-16-03
18:08:58 PDT)        2557402729 - THE CUMBERLAND RIDGERUNNERS MOUNTAIN BALLADS AND
HOME SONGS, 1936, $9.99 (ends Sep-16-03 18:35:52 PDT)        3550813971 - 2 books (The Book of Negro Folklore by Hughes &
Bontemps, 1958 and American Negro Folk Songs by White, 1928), $33.50
(ends Sep-16-03 19:55:11 PDT)        3550817189 - Folk Songs of the Catskills by Cazden, 1982, $12.95
(ends Sep-16-03 20:08:49 PDT)        3550819349 - Vermont Folk Songs and Ballads by Flanders and
Brown, 1968, $19 (ends Sep-16-03 20:18:59 PDT)        3242031079 - Who fears to Speak? Ballads of Irish Freedom, $9.99
(ends Sep-17-03 10:00:58 PDT)        3550980421 - Spiritual Folksongs of Early America by Jackson,
1937, $15.99 (ends Sep-17-03 11:13:40 PDT)        3551119993 - Jump the Rope Jingles by Worstell, 1961, $8 (ends
Sep-17-03 18:57:40 PDT)        2557744162 - The Minstrelsy of Ireland by Moffatt, 1897?, $7.50
(ends Sep-17-03 19:21:40 PDT)        3551164029 - The Quest of the Ballad by MacKenzie, 1919, $19
(ends Sep-17-03 22:25:58 PDT)        3551209919 - Sea Songs & Shanties by Whall, 1920, $4 (ends
Sep-18-03 06:42:49 PDT)        3551338105 - Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border by Scott, volumes
2 & 3, 1812, $19.95 (ends Sep-18-03 15:45:13 PDT)        3550540406 - The Book of Navy Songs by The Trident Society,
1926, $2.99 (ends Sep-18-03 17:26:55 PDT)        3551359105 - The Scottish Minstrel: The Songs and Song Writers
of Scotland Subsequent to Burns by Rogers, 1873, $19.99 (ends Sep-18-03
17:51:41 PDT)        3551361836 - Narrative Folksong New Direction by Edwards &
Manley, 1985, $14 (ends Sep-18-03 18:05:03 PDT)        3551371055 - Folk Songs of the South by Cox, 1925, $19.99 (ends
Sep-18-03 18:50:27 PDT)        2557866526 - THE MINSTRELSY OF THE SCOTTISH HIGHLANDS by
Moffatt, $5 (ends Sep-18-03 19:30:00 PDT)        3551431102 - The Well-Tempered Lyre, Songs and Verses of the
Temperance Movement by Ewing, 1977, $5 (ends Sep-19-03 05:35:19 PDT)        3551680955 - Wit And Mirth: Or Pills to Purge Melancholy, 3
volumes, 1959 reprint, $75 (ends Sep-20-03 12:35:28 PDT)        2557675146 - The Book of Irish Ballads by MacCarthy, 1869
edition, 29 GBP (ends Sep-20-03 14:30:33 PDT)        3551708151 - 3 Australian books inc. The Wild Colonial Boy &
other Folk Ballads, $1.99 (ends Sep-20-03 14:53:54 PDT)        3551747473 - Secular Music in America 1801-1825 by Wolfe, 3
volumes, 1964, $90 (ends Sep-20-03 19:17:43 PDT)        3551748635 - Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898 by
Wilgus, 1959, $9.99 (ends Sep-20-03 19:24:59 PDT)        3551827945 - Roll and Go: Songs of American Sailormen by
Colcord, 1924, $19 (ends Sep-21-03 07:21:11 PDT)        3551830351 - COME DAY, GO DAY, GOD SEND SUNDAY, The Songs and
Life Story of John Maguire by Morton, 1973, $19.99 (ends Sep-21-03
07:33:17 PDT)        3551846898 - Come and I Will Sing You, A Newfoundland Songbook
by Lehr & Best, $12 (ends Sep-21-03 08:44:28 PDT)        3551902019 - THE OXFORD BOOK OF BALLADS by quiller Couch, 1910,
39.99 GBP (ends Sep-21-03 11:29:37 PDT)        3551932346 - The Negro and His Songs, A Study of Typical Negro
Songs in the South by Odum & Johnson, 1964 reprint, $29 (ends Sep-21-03
12:46:13 PDT)        3551940022 - The Ballads by Hodgart, 1962, $5 (ends Sep-21-03
13:05:43 PDT)        3551953628 - The First Book of Irish Ballads by O'Keefe, 1965
edition, $4 (ends Sep-21-03 13:47:51 PDT)        3551958933 - The Ballad Revival by Friedman, 1961, $9.99 (ends
Sep-21-03 14:07:48 PDT)        3551970958 - The Singing Sixties, The Spirit of Civil War Days
Drawn from the Music of the Times by Heaps, 1960, $19 (ends Sep-21-03
15:02:36 PDT)                        Happy Bidding!
                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Wandering Minstrel
From: [unmask]
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Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 22:08:39 EDT
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Subject: Re: Ebay List - 09/15/03
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 15 Sep 2003 21:21:18 -0500
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On 9/15/03, Dolores Nichols wrote:[ ... ]>        3550819349 - Vermont Folk Songs and Ballads by Flanders and
>Brown, 1968, $19 (ends Sep-16-03 20:18:59 PDT)There being no other bids on this one, I put in my oar. If anyone
really wants it, though, I didn't bid very high. Let me know so
I'll know whether to fight you. :-)[ ... ]>
>        3551932346 - The Negro and His Songs, A Study of Typical Negro
>Songs in the South by Odum & Johnson, 1964 reprint, $29 (ends Sep-21-03
>12:46:13 PDT)I'm also watching this one (not sure I want to get into any sort
of tussle at that price point). Anyone else want it?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: What's in a name? (long)
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 16 Sep 2003 10:54:10 -0400
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I'm pursuing the hypothesis that the legendary John Henry was John
Henry Dabney, Copiah County, Mississippi, born a slave in Mississippi
to the father (or possibly uncle) of Captain Frederick Yeamans Dabney
(the "captain" of the ballad).  The memoirs of one of Captain
Dabney's sisters mention a slave boy, Henry, who was a teenager
during the Civil War.  Further, "The 1870 census lists a Henry
Dabney, black, twenty years old, "works on farm," living with his
wife Margaret in Copiah County, Mississippi, a specific candidate for
John Henry.  Henry Dabney married Margaret Foston on November 4,
1869, in Copiah County, Mississippi (marriage records)." ("Chasing
John Henry in Alabama and Mississippi," Tributaries: Journal of the
Alabama Folklife Association, Issue No. 5, 2002.)We all "know" that the name of John Henry's wife/woman was "Polly
Ann," don't we?  That is almost universal nowadays.  It couldn't have
been "Margaret," could it?Of 60 "John Henry" ballads published by 1933 (29 in Johnson, John
Henry; 30 in Chappell, John Henry; 1 from Peter Brannon in Central of
Georgia Magazine for October, 1930):Polly Ann     15*
Mary Ann       3
Julie Ann      3
Delia Ann      1
Sary Ann       1
Martha Ann     1
Lucy           1**
Mary Magdalene 1
Ida Red        1*Obvious variants are included: Paule Ann, Paul E. Ann, Poly Ann, etc.
**The informant was an amateur "John Henry" specialist who claimed
that he had never heard any other name for John Henry's "woman."I think that the following are characteristics of oral transmisstion:(1) There will be substitutions prompted by mishearing, misrecall,
and mental associations.
(2) The familiar will replace the unfamiliar.
(3) The simpler will replace the more complex.
(4) The plausible will replace the implausible.
(5) Better rhymes will replace faulty ones.
(6) The recent versions of a very popular ballad will less valuable
than older ones, as far as historicity is concerned, because the
recent versions will have been changed substantially by the processes
listed above. As change occurs, a ballad will tend toward a stable
end point, that is, changes will have occurred that removed all of
the earlier needs for change.**Are these principles reasonable?**
**Are there others?**"Polly Ann" strikes me as too familiar and commonplace to be likely
to be the correct historic name. Instead, it is probably a nearly
stable end point.When you come across something that is unfamiliar and complex, or
seems out of place, such as "Mary Magdalene," I think you should
automatically give it great credence as a possible "original," or a
relative of the "original," and try to check it out further."Mary Magdalene" puzzled me for several years. Here is the way it
appears in a version sent to Guy B. Johnson in ca 1927.John Henry, he had a woman,
Her name was Mary Magdalene.
She would go to the tunnel and sing for John,
Just to hear John Henry's hammer ring.Note the direct statement, "Her name was Mary Magdalene," and the
interesting near-rhyme: "-lene" / "ring."Here the matter rested, in my mind, until about this time last year
(2002), when I heard Neal Pattman, a local blues singer, in
concert.   In his concerts he almost always does "John Henry," the
first song he ever learned, he says, which he got from his father.
Prior to that evening, I'd never heard him sing a verse that names
John Henry's "woman." Such a verse is absent from Neal's text of
"John Henry" as given by Art Rosenbaum in his and Margo's book, Folk
Visions and Voices, and it is absent from his "John Henry" recording
issued by Global Village (now on CD: CD 226).That evening I sat bolt upright at full attention when I thought I
heard Neal sing something like:John Henry had a little woman,
Maggadee was her name,
When John Henry took sick and had to go to bed,
Maggadee drove steel like a man."Maggadee" sounds a lot like "Magdalene" and a lot like "Maggie
D."   As I sat there on our blanket (this was an outdoor concert) I
formulated the following possible series of mutations:Maggie D
   (from "Margaret Dabney," nee Foston, Henry Dabney's wife)
Maggadee
   (sounds like "Maggie D")
Magdalene
   (more familiar than "Maggadee" and "Maggie D")
Mary Magdalene
   (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
Mary Ann
   (more plausible and driven by rhyme)
Polly Ann
   ("Polly" is a nickname for "Mary.")
xxxx Ann
   (Use your favorite, Julie, Delia, Martha, Sary, Lucy)
Lucy
   (Drop "Ann" from "Lucy Ann." Must make some rhyme provision.)Many people today don't even know that "Polly" is a nickname for
"Mary," but in the 19th century and earlier almost every "Mary" was
known familiarly as "Polly."Recently I've interviewed Neal Pattman, who told me first that the
name was "Maggatee" and then "Magganatee." I and two friends listened
carefully when he sang it at a concert recently and we all agreed
that we heard "Maggadee." It really doesn't make any
difference.   "Maggadee," "Maggatee," and "Magganatee" all sound
something like "Maggie D" and "Magdalene." Neal verified that he got
the name from his father's singing.Notice that Pattman rhymens "name" ("Magaddee was her name") with
"man."  This is a bit better than it might sound - Neal sings "man"
as "main."In the version of Leon R. Harris, who had never heard any name other
than "Lucy," the rhyming problem is met as follows.John Henry's woman, Lucy,
Dress she wore was blue,
Eyes like stars and teeth lak-a marble stone,
An' John Henry named his hammah "Lucy" too.Lucy came to see him,            (Cf. "George's mother came to him,
Bucket in huh han',                    A bucket in her hand.")
All th' time John Henry at his snack,
O Lucy she'd drive steel lak-a man.If Pattman's second line is inverted from "X was her name" to the
more direct, and therefore more familiar, "Her name was X,"
"Maggadee" and "Magdalene" don't provide a rhyme, but "Ann" does.John Henry had a little woman,
Her name was Xxxx Ann,
When John Henry took sick and had to go to bed,
Xxxx Ann drove steel like a man.That's where my "What's in a name?" analysis stood until late last
week. Then I found something I'd overlooked.In Jamaica there has been a strong "John Henry" tradition. I already
knew that that tradition has preserved "Dabner" as the name of one of
John Henry's bosses. Captain Dabney, Crystal Springs, Copiah County,
Mississippi, was Chief Engineer of the Columbus & Western and in
charge of its construction through Dunnavant, Alabama, where John
Henry Dabney is said to have worked on Oak and Coosa Mountain
Tunnels, in 1887-88.What I found yesterday, in a 1966 article by MacEdward Leach, is that
Jamaican tradition preserves the name of John Henry's wife as "Marga."Now ...**What is this, the name findings and analysis, worth as evidence?**I've heard from some who think it worthless.  I'm inclined to give it
more weight than that.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:42:55 -0700
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John:I am convinced/persuaded by your argument.  The rule should be "best
available evidence," in this case, the text itself.  And that means the
names of the actors.Absent an early text from oral tradition -- not the Blankenship broadside
-- you can't PROVE anything.  But you outline a more plausible theory of
the ballad's origin than anyone else has put forward.Ed

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:24:56 -0500
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Hi folks:I replied to John in another forum, but it's worth repeating the reply here
too.I can see a more direct way to get from "Margaret" to "Polly Ann". In many
places in the south, "Peggy" is a common nickname for "Margaret" (don't ask
me why, it just is). So:Margaret > Peggy (common)Peggy > Peggy Ann (for the sake of the rhyme)Peggy Ann > Polly Ann (because it rolls off the tongue easier, unless you're
Buddy Holly)But I still feel like this is a pretty tenuous connection -- rather like the
connection someone made between Moses and Middlebury by noting that they're
really the same; all you have to do is change "oses" to "iddlebury".On the other hand, I think the Caribbean reference to "Dabner" and reference
to JH's wife being named "Marga" is NOT trivial, but worth following up. To
me, that's a lot stronger evidence than conjectures about Polly Ann. So
John -- any other Caribbean details, especially place names, that correlate
better with Alabama than with West Virginia?Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: "David G. Engle" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:39:32 -0700
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>Hi folks:
>
>I replied to John in another forum, but it's worth repeating the reply here
>too.
>
>I can see a more direct way to get from "Margaret" to "Polly Ann". In many
>places in the south, "Peggy" is a common nickname for "Margaret" (don't ask
>me why, it just is). So:
>
>Margaret > Peggy (common)
>
>Peggy > Peggy Ann (for the sake of the rhyme)
>
>Peggy Ann > Polly Ann (because it rolls off the tongue easier, unless you're
>Buddy Holly)
>
>But I still feel like this is a pretty tenuous connection -- rather like the
>connection someone made between Moses and Middlebury by noting that they're
>really the same; all you have to do is change "oses" to "iddlebury".
>
>On the other hand, I think the Caribbean reference to "Dabner" and reference
>to JH's wife being named "Marga" is NOT trivial, but worth following up. To
>me, that's a lot stronger evidence than conjectures about Polly Ann. So
>John -- any other Caribbean details, especially place names, that correlate
>better with Alabama than with West Virginia?
>
>Peace,
>PaulI'll second Paul here, but with some differences in emphasis.  Yes
the Caribbean details seem VERY interesting, because they are much
less speculative.  However it is often the details, as John
indicateds the apparently anomalous details, which lead one to the
"facts" of a case (as opposed to the "tradition" of it).  Having
said that, the rest of John's considerations would certainly explain
how Marga morphed to Polly Ann - and  in MUCH more plausible fashion
than Moses to Middlebury.  While the second will not imply the first
necessarily, it will certainly support other evidence.BTW another direction of change is from the particular, odd,
excentric, individual towards the traditional, the patterned, normal.
I.e., if "facts" get bent, they will be bent in the direction of
(traditional) expectations.
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:06:49 -0400
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>I can see a more direct way to get from "Margaret" to "Polly Ann". In many
>places in the south, "Peggy" is a common nickname for "Margaret" (don't ask
>me why, it just is). So:
>
>Margaret > Peggy (common)
>
>Peggy > Peggy Ann (for the sake of the rhyme)
>
>Peggy Ann > Polly Ann (because it rolls off the tongue easier, unless you're
>Buddy Holly)
>
>But I still feel like this is a pretty tenuous connection -- rather like the
>connection someone made between Moses and Middlebury by noting that they're
>really the same; all you have to do is change "oses" to "iddlebury".Paul's suggestion is certainly plausible, but it fails to account
specifically for "Maggadee," "Mary Magdalene," and "Marga."  Also, I
know of no recoveries of "Peggy" or "Peggy Ann" in versions of "John
Henry."  For these reasons, I favor the series of mutations I posted.>On the other hand, I think the Caribbean reference to "Dabner" and reference
>to JH's wife being named "Marga" is NOT trivial, but worth following up. To
>me, that's a lot stronger evidence than conjectures about Polly Ann. So
>John -- any other Caribbean details, especially place names, that correlate
>better with Alabama than with West Virginia?(1) I must weaken my argument a bit by pointing out that MacEdward
Leach does not provide a link between the "Marga" John Henry and the
steel-driving man.  The following is quoted from near the end of the
Leach paper.  It follows discussions of Jamaican hammer songs
(similar to ours, e.g., "This Old Hammer") and a digging song that
has John Henry lusting after Cecelia and does not connect him with
anything else:"  The final illustration seems also to be from a digging song.  The
informant told me that Marga was John Henry's woman; she sold the
mule to buy and accordion (flutina).   Oh John Henry, Oh John Henry, Oh John Henry.
   Marga sell 'im mule and buy flutina.
   Oh Marga disobedient...." (finished out with repeats of these lines)"John Henry" is a very common name, and the reference here could be
to any old John Henry.  On the other hand, Leach seemed to find a lot
of Jamaicans in "the mountain region centering in Irish Town" who
recognized John Henry as a laborer who had been killed in a
construction accident.  Regardless, the song fragment does connect
the names "John Henry" and "Marga" as those of a man and his
woman/wife.(2) (a) Two "Alabama" informants mention Shea/Shay and Dabner/Dabney
as "contractors" for whom John Henry worked (Johnson).  Leon Harris,
the man who had never heard any name other than "Lucy" for John
Henry's woman, thought it likely that John Henry's "captain"'s name
was Tommy Walters, "probably and assistant foreman, however"
(Johnson).  According to C. S. Farquharson, Public Works Department,
Jamaica, "The following names are known:- Dabner, in charge of
blasting operations.  John Henry, checking up cuts and embankments.
Shea, Engineer in charge.  Tommy Walters, Assistant Pay Master"
(Chappell).Thus, "Alabama" informants give two of the same names as a Jamaican
one, and another informant gives the third Jamaican name.  Coupled
with documentation that the Chief Engineer for the Columbus &
Western, during its construction in Alabama, was Captain Frederick
Yeamans Dabney, these points of agreement give great credence to all
of these names and therefore to Dunnavant, Alabama, and the year 1887
as the place and date of John Henry's contest with a steam drill.(b) This one is a real stretch, but I'm not cautious, so here goes.
A number of American and Jamaican versions of the John Henry hammer
song include the line, "If I live to see December."  One Jamaican
version has instead, "If I live to see St. Helena."  "See December"
sounds a lot like "St. Helena," so perhaps "December" is a vestige of
"St. Helena."  "St. Helena" may be the name of several places, but
one of them is an island off the coast of South Carolina, a Gullah
stronghold.  It may be more likely that a construction worker in the
deep South would be from St. Helena, SC, than one in West Virginia.That's all I've been able to root out of Chappell's book and Leach's
article.  There might possibly be more Jamaican John Henry
information in a 1907 book by Walter Jekyll, quoted by Leach, but
I've not seen it and the hammer song that Leach quotes does not
mention John Henry, nor does an 1894 version, although the informant
said that it was known as the "John Henry song."  If it was so known
in 1894, this may be the earliest known reference to the legendary
John Henry.  1894 is a good date for the Alabama theory (an 1887
event) but it doesn't rule out West Virginia (1870-72).>Peace,
>Paul>...
>BTW another direction of change is from the particular, odd,
>excentric, individual towards the traditional, the patterned, normal.
>I.e., if "facts" get bent, they will be bent in the direction of
>(traditional) expectations.
>--
>
>David G. EngleThanks, David, for this and your opinion of the mutation scenario.Has there been an intense, systematic study of text mutations,
leading to a set of principles that could be considered to govern
them?  If so, where is it published?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: The Wandering Minstrel
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:20:30 -0500
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Many thanks for the suggestions. I'll follow up the Bodleian via Mike
Heaney and let you know  how I get on.
Steve.

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: "David G. Engle" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 16 Sep 2003 14:44:08 -0700
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John,probably someone else will know of newer, better material, but fur me
the classic case isAnne B. Cohen
Poor Pearl, Poor Girl!  The Murdered-Girl Stereotype inn Ballad and Newspaper.
Austin & London: Univ. of Texas press, 1973.
Publications of the American Folklore Society, Memoir series, v. 58.in which she shows how several ballads about Pearl Bryan coalesced,
how the ballads -- and the newspaper acounts! -- increasingly
approached the "classic"  murdered girl plot.Good luck.  I find your sleuthing fascinating!!David
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: Becky Nankivell <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:50:47 -0600
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My mother is a Margaret, known as "Polly", for what it's worth. :-)~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, Arizona> "Maggadee" sounds a lot like "Magdalene" and a lot like "Maggie
> D."   As I sat there on our blanket (this was an outdoor concert) I
> formulated the following possible series of mutations:
>
> Maggie D
>    (from "Margaret Dabney," nee Foston, Henry Dabney's wife)
> Maggadee
>    (sounds like "Maggie D")
> Magdalene
>    (more familiar than "Maggadee" and "Maggie D")
> Mary Magdalene
>    (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
> Mary Ann
>    (more plausible and driven by rhyme)
> Polly Ann
>    ("Polly" is a nickname for "Mary.")
> xxxx Ann
>    (Use your favorite, Julie, Delia, Martha, Sary, Lucy)
> Lucy
>    (Drop "Ann" from "Lucy Ann." Must make some rhyme provision.)
>
> Many people today don't even know that "Polly" is a nickname for
> "Mary," but in the 19th century and earlier almost every "Mary" was
> known familiarly as "Polly."

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 17 Sep 2003 01:47:57 -0500
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> Mary Magdalene
>    (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)Anna.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:44:35 -0500
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On 9/17/03, Paul Stamler wrote:> > Mary Magdalene
>>    (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
>
>Anna.How about "Hospital"? :-)
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:45:25 -0400
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That is most interesting.  Another acquaintance yesterday suggested
that "Polly" could be a nickname for "Margaret," but on thinking it
over he withdrew that claim, saying that he thought he had confused
it with "Mary."  Perhaps he had it right the first time!>My mother is a Margaret, known as "Polly", for what it's worth. :-)
>
>~ Becky Nankivell
>Tucson, Arizona
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:46:16 -0400
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>  > Mary Magdalene
>>     (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
>
>Anna.
>
>Peace,
>PaulOK, Paul, who's Anna?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:54:42 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<OK, Paul, who's Anna?Anna Magdalena (or Maddalena), to whom J. S. Bach dedicated a book of
compositions. Us ex-piano-players all worked our way through it taking
lessons way back when.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 17 Sep 2003 19:38:57 +0100
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Try putting "Origin of Polly" into Google. Then you find the link
http://www.andythenamebender.com/name-meanings/Polly.htm which tells you
that Polly -> Molly -> Mary. For what it's worth.
As far as Becky's mother Margaret being called Polly is concerned, I have an
aunt Jane known as Pippy. Does it help? No. It's just a very human foible.
Moral: when all else fails, give up and go down to the pub (and make up a
song about it).
Cheers
Simon----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)> That is most interesting.  Another acquaintance yesterday suggested
> that "Polly" could be a nickname for "Margaret," but on thinking it
> over he withdrew that claim, saying that he thought he had confused
> it with "Mary."  Perhaps he had it right the first time!
>
> >My mother is a Margaret, known as "Polly", for what it's worth. :-)
> >
> >~ Becky Nankivell
> >Tucson, Arizona
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:55:28 -0500
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On 9/17/03, John Garst wrote:>> > Mary Magdalene
>>>    (by association - what other "Magdalene" do we all know?)
>>
>>Anna.
>>
>>Peace,
>>Paul
>
>OK, Paul, who's Anna?Anna Magdalena Bach. Which, since the Greek is MAGDALHNH (etas,
not epsilons), is actually closer to the correct form.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: "David G. Engle" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:22:15 -0700
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>On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 11:40:58AM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:
>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>  From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>>
>>  <<I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
>>  Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
>>  otherwise never see.>>
>>
>>  Yup. Can't do much but I'll do what I can.
>
>         And me too, please -- Aloha, LaniAnd I'd be glad to do some, as well.David
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

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Subject: Re: What's in a name?
From: Joe Fineman <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 18 Sep 2003 15:08:42 -0400
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Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
John Garst, writes:> That is most interesting.  Another acquaintance yesterday suggested
> that "Polly" could be a nickname for "Margaret," but on thinking it
> over he withdrew that claim, saying that he thought he had confused
> it with "Mary."  Perhaps he had it right the first time!Says the American Heritage Dictionary s.v. Polly:  A feminine given name.  [Variant of Molly, pet form for Mary.]Hard to go wrong.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Clowns, not clones.  :||

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Subject: Re: What's in a name?
From: Ruairidh Greig <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:14:19 +0100
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I've got a little girl who's just started at my school called Holly Polly-
presumably the Mary/Molly/Polly is part of the same human attraction to
rhyme?Ruairidh----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Fineman" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: What's in a name?> Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
> John Garst, writes:
>
> > That is most interesting.  Another acquaintance yesterday suggested
> > that "Polly" could be a nickname for "Margaret," but on thinking it
> > over he withdrew that claim, saying that he thought he had confused
> > it with "Mary."  Perhaps he had it right the first time!
>
> Says the American Heritage Dictionary s.v. Polly:
>
>   A feminine given name.  [Variant of Molly, pet form for Mary.]
>
> Hard to go wrong.
> --
> ---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
> ||:  Clowns, not clones.  :||
>

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Subject: Re: What's in a name?
From: Edie Gale Hays <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:43:17 -0500
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As a genealogist, I've seen the usual list of "common" nicknames:
Molly and Polly for Mary
Peggy for Margaret
Nancy for Agnes, Ann or Hannah
Nel for Helen, Eleanor or EllenI have a friend who AGONIZES over the fact that he gave his son the WRONG
name, because they've always called him "Nat" when, according to those who
know (whomever THEY might be) he should rightfully be called "Nate."  Such
is the snob distinguishment between Nathan (Nate) and Nathaniel (Nat).
Which doesn't explain how (in this same peer group) Carter became "Binky"
or Ellen became "Muffy."And I've often seen unusual given names massacred into something more
common, through sheer ignorance.  Talitha became Tabitha.  Oliffe
(admittedly, an unusual female name) became Alice, with "nothing further
found" about her because she is rightfully named in later wills by her real
name of Oliffe!So tracing real people through possible permeations of names is risky, at
best. If you MUST rely on this method, stick with the OLDEST KNOWN VERSION,
as it's the least likely to be massacred.  Unless, of course, the author
made up a name, not having known the real name. . .Edie Gale Hays
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 03:08:35 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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On Fri, 12 Sep 2003 18:15:35 +0100, Simon Furey
<[unmask]> wrote:>Surprise, surprise...I'm going for this...among a few score other people I
>guess...
>Thanks for the heads-up, Dolores
>Simon...well, I didn't get it. It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
Is it a record for a Bronson volume?
Simon

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 09:16:37 +0100
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One point about this thing, should I decide to go ahead and transcribe
it.  It has bass lines.From the ones I've looked at, they never add anything interesting to
the melody and can be bumblingly incompetent.Does anybody have a real use for them, or will the bare melody lines do?Here's an example, from the 17th century part of the collection.  The
bass doesn't do a lot for me in musical terms, and it doesn't look to
me at all like a 17th century arrangement, so it can't have that much
historical interest, can it?  (You'll need a recent version of BarFly
or abcm2ps to process this as is; I've used some newish ABC constructs).X:1
T:The bonny brow or In January last
S:Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578) p1
N:Blaikie #2
M:2/4
L:1/16
V:1 midi program 1 74
V:2 midi program 1 46 bass middle = d transpose -24
K:F
[V:1] f2|c3A    GAGF | F4 C4  |D<FFG A2G2|G4    d2ef|c2A2 GAGF|FGAF C3C |DEF2 G2`A2|c6   ||
[V:2] z2|F4     f4   | F4 A4  |B4   =B4  |c4    z4  |F4   f4  |f4   a4  |b2a2`g2`f2|c6   ||
%
[V:1] c2|B3c    dcd_e|_e4 defd|cdcA  GAGF|G6      f2|c3A  GAGF|F4   C2C2|CDF2 A2`c2|f6   |]
[V:2] z2|d'2c'2`b2g2 | a4 b4  |a2f2``e3d |c2c'2`c2z2|F4   f4  |a2f2`a2f2|b2a2`c'2c2|f4 F2|]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:47:34 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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At 03:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
>wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
>Is it a record for a Bronson volume?It seems like they usually go for $200 - $400.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:20:40 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Well why in heaven's name don't they reprint them? If they're consistently going for $200-400, I'd think that it would behoove some smart publisher to run another series, even a small one.And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread, after looking through 73 versions of "Pretty Polly", I found only Mary/Molly/Polly connections, no Margarets, Magdelenas, or other permutations. "Willie", the murderer in the standard version of the song, is often William or even John or Johnny, but Polly/Molly/Mary is constant, even when the variant is called "Molly, Pretty Polly."Beth Brooks>>> [unmask] 09/19/03 07:49 AM >>>
At 03:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
>wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
>Is it a record for a Bronson volume?It seems like they usually go for $200 - $400.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:48:41 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(43 lines)


Bare melody lines are fine for me.dick greenhausJack Campin wrote:>One point about this thing, should I decide to go ahead and transcribe
>it.  It has bass lines.
>
>>From the ones I've looked at, they never add anything interesting to
>the melody and can be bumblingly incompetent.
>
>Does anybody have a real use for them, or will the bare melody lines do?
>
>Here's an example, from the 17th century part of the collection.  The
>bass doesn't do a lot for me in musical terms, and it doesn't look to
>me at all like a 17th century arrangement, so it can't have that much
>historical interest, can it?  (You'll need a recent version of BarFly
>or abcm2ps to process this as is; I've used some newish ABC constructs).
>
>X:1
>T:The bonny brow or In January last
>S:Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578) p1
>N:Blaikie #2
>M:2/4
>L:1/16
>V:1 midi program 1 74
>V:2 midi program 1 46 bass middle = d transpose -24
>K:F
>[V:1] f2|c3A    GAGF | F4 C4  |D<FFG A2G2|G4    d2ef|c2A2 GAGF|FGAF C3C |DEF2 G2`A2|c6   ||
>[V:2] z2|F4     f4   | F4 A4  |B4   =B4  |c4    z4  |F4   f4  |f4   a4  |b2a2`g2`f2|c6   ||
>%
>[V:1] c2|B3c    dcd_e|_e4 defd|cdcA  GAGF|G6      f2|c3A  GAGF|F4   C2C2|CDF2 A2`c2|f6   |]
>[V:2] z2|d'2c'2`b2g2 | a4 b4  |a2f2``e3d |c2c'2`c2z2|F4   f4  |a2f2`a2f2|b2a2`c'2c2|f4 F2|]
>
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
><http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: What's in a name?- names and snobbery
From: Elizabeth Hummel <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:12:57 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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I read your comment about names and nickname snobbery with interest.  My sister Margaret's friends took to calling her "Mags" which horrified my Grandmother.   According to my grandmother.  "Mags" was  a name only given to hired help.Liz in New Hampshire-----Original Message-----
From: Edie Gale Hays [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 12:43 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: What's in a name?As a genealogist, I've seen the usual list of "common" nicknames:
Molly and Polly for Mary
Peggy for Margaret
Nancy for Agnes, Ann or Hannah
Nel for Helen, Eleanor or EllenI have a friend who AGONIZES over the fact that he gave his son the WRONG
name, because they've always called him "Nat" when, according to those who
know (whomever THEY might be) he should rightfully be called "Nate."  Such
is the snob distinguishment between Nathan (Nate) and Nathaniel (Nat).
Which doesn't explain how (in this same peer group) Carter became "Binky"
or Ellen became "Muffy."And I've often seen unusual given names massacred into something more
common, through sheer ignorance.  Talitha became Tabitha.  Oliffe
(admittedly, an unusual female name) became Alice, with "nothing further
found" about her because she is rightfully named in later wills by her real
name of Oliffe!So tracing real people through possible permeations of names is risky, at
best. If you MUST rely on this method, stick with the OLDEST KNOWN VERSION,
as it's the least likely to be massacred.  Unless, of course, the author
made up a name, not having known the real name. . .Edie Gale Hays
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:29:34 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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Beth:Good news.  There is in the works a digital edition of Bronson.And while I prefer books over discs, I would guess that Princeton does not feel it can print and sell 1,000 copies of each of the four volumes.  (They would need at least that number to break even.)Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 19, 2003 6:20 am
Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!> Well why in heaven's name don't they reprint them? If they're consistently
> going for $200-400, I'd think that it would behoove some smart publisher
> to run another series, even a small one.
>
> And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread, after looking through 73 versions
> of "Pretty Polly", I found only Mary/Molly/Polly connections, no
> Margarets, Magdelenas, or other permutations. "Willie", the murderer in
> the standard version of the song, is often William or even John or Johnny,
> but Polly/Molly/Mary is constant, even when the variant is called "Molly,
> Pretty Polly."
>
> Beth Brooks
>
> >>> [unmask] 09/19/03 07:49 AM >>>
> At 03:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
> >wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
> >Is it a record for a Bronson volume?
>
> It seems like they usually go for $200 - $400.
>
> Paul Garon
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

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Subject: Ebay Special Alert #2 - Complete set of Bronson
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:04:09 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(15 lines)


Hi!        This auction appeared on Ebay late yesterday.        3552853966 - Traditional tunes of the Child Ballads by Bronson,
4 volumes, 1959-1972, $200 (ends Sep-25-03 12:36:50 PDT)                        Happy Bidding!
                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert #2 - Complete set of Bronson
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:18:15 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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This one might be fun to watch.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Dolores Nichols" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 19, 2003 9:04 AM
Subject: Ebay Special Alert #2 - Complete set of Bronson> Hi!
>
>         This auction appeared on Ebay late yesterday.
>
>         3552853966 - Traditional tunes of the Child Ballads by Bronson,
> 4 volumes, 1959-1972, $200 (ends Sep-25-03 12:36:50 PDT)
>
>                         Happy Bidding!
>                         Dolores
>
> --
> Dolores Nichols                 |
> D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
> Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>         --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?
>

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Subject: Two, Three, Many Pretty Pollys
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:39:54 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]><<And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread, after looking through 73 versions
of "Pretty Polly", I found only Mary/Molly/Polly connections, no Margarets,
Magdelenas, or other permutations. "Willie", the murderer in the standard
version of the song, is often William or even John or Johnny, but
Polly/Molly/Mary is constant, even when the variant is called "Molly, Pretty
Polly.">>It should be noted that "Pretty Polly" is an alliterative title that seems
to have been irresistable to song-makers over the centuries. In the Ballad
Index we find:A. L. Lloyd's version of "Creeping and Crawling", called "Pretty Polly".
The murder ballad which is more-or-less part of the "Cruel Ship's Carpenter"
family; the Index calls it "Pretty Polly (II)".
The cross-dressing song indexed as "The Female Warrior", which has the
alternate title of "Pretty Polly" (Laws N4).
"Grey Cat on the Tennessee Farm", which includes the line in the chorus,
"I'm gonna tell you, pretty Polly Ann".
Two versions of "The Irish Girl", as listed in Creighton/Senior.
Versions of "Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight" collected by Vance Randolph and
called "Pretty Polly Ann", and one in Sandburg as "Pretty Polly".
A version of "No Sign of a Marriage" listed in Warner as "Pretty Polly".
"Polly Oliver" (Laws N14), whose alternate title is "Pretty Polly". Indeed,
Brown and Creighton/Senior list "Pretty Polly" as the main title. And
Chappell/Wooldridge call it "Pretty Polly Oliver", the title Ollie Gilbert
used when she recorded it.
"Pretty Polly Perkins of Paddington Green"
"Pretty Polly (I) (Moll Boy's Courtship)" (Laws O14), where a married man
comes courting Pretty Polly. She won't marry him until his wife dies, which
conveniently she does. That one's in Eddy, too.
"Pretty Polly (IV)", where Polly refuses to marry the singer because he's
too poor. He sets off for New Orleans to marry another, but changes his mind
because he loves Polly too much. That one's in Combs/Wilgus.
"When He Comes, He'll Come in Green", one of whose titles in Brown is "Oh,
Pretty Polly".I'm not sure what, if anything, all this proves, except that this
alliterative name seems to have a special allure for song-makers. If she's
Polly, she's probably pretty, just like if it's a steed, it's probably
milk-white.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:59:48 -0500
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Thanks Ed! Let the list know when the digital version is up and running, if you please.B2>>> [unmask] 09/19/03 12:15 PM >>>
Beth:Good news.  There is in the works a digital edition of Bronson.And while I prefer books over discs, I would guess that Princeton does not feel it can print and sell 1,000 copies of each of the four volumes.  (They would need at least that number to break even.)Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 19, 2003 6:20 am
Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!> Well why in heaven's name don't they reprint them? If they're consistently
> going for $200-400, I'd think that it would behoove some smart publisher
> to run another series, even a small one.
>
> And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread, after looking through 73 versions
> of "Pretty Polly", I found only Mary/Molly/Polly connections, no
> Margarets, Magdelenas, or other permutations. "Willie", the murderer in
> the standard version of the song, is often William or even John or Johnny,
> but Polly/Molly/Mary is constant, even when the variant is called "Molly,
> Pretty Polly."
>
> Beth Brooks
>
> >>> [unmask] 09/19/03 07:49 AM >>>
> At 03:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
> >wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
> >Is it a record for a Bronson volume?
>
> It seems like they usually go for $200 - $400.
>
> Paul Garon
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: What's in a name
From: "David G. Engle" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:14:46 -0700
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>And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread,...Molly, merry Molly won't you come and go with me
Molly, merry Molly won't you come and go with me??
Before we get parried some pleasure to see...OK, so it's Friday and it has been a LONG week :-)david
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

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Subject: Re: What's in a name
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:28:38 -0500
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On 9/19/03, David G. Engle wrote:>>And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread,
>
>...
>
>Molly, merry Molly won't you come and go with me
>Molly, merry Molly won't you come and go with me??
>Before we get parried some pleasure to see...
>
>OK, so it's Friday and it has been a LONG week :-)Shouldn't that last line beBefore we get parried some measure to see...?:-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: What's in a name
From: "David G. Engle" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 14:19:27 -0700
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>On 9/19/03, David G. Engle wrote:
>
>>>And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread,
>>
>>...
>>
>>Molly, merry Molly won't you come and go with me
>>Molly, merry Molly won't you come and go with me??
>>Before we get parried some pleasure to see...
>>
>>OK, so it's Friday and it has been a LONG week :-)
>
>Shouldn't that last line be
>
>Before we get parried some measure to see...
>
>?
>
>:-)
>
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."Ah, but the exception proves the rule in folkloristics ;-)... and besides the "measure" is not "at all" as important as the
"alliteration"--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

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Subject: Bronson volume 4
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 16:35:57 -0500
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>From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!>Good news.  There is in the works a digital edition of Bronson.
>
>And while I prefer books over discs, I would guess that Princeton
does not feel it can print and sell 1,000 copies of each of the
four volumes.  (They would need at least that number to break
even.)I love paper, but to think you can fit all four volumes of Bronson
(for example) on one CD and sell it for a fraction of what four
bulky volumes would cost just makes too much sense to ignore.
Never mind whether the demand in low or high.Most of us don't have unlimited shelf space, not to mention
unlimited dollars, so I hope to see more scarce old books recreated
in electronic form as the years go by.Andrew________________________________________________________________
Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

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Subject: Re: Bronson volume 4
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:22:29 -0700
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Andrew:You will if David Kleiman, a subscriber to this list, has his way.First Child, then Bronson, and more in the pipeline.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 19, 2003 2:35 pm
Subject: Bronson volume 4> >From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
>
> >Good news.  There is in the works a digital edition of Bronson.
> >
> >And while I prefer books over discs, I would guess that Princeton
> does not feel it can print and sell 1,000 copies of each of the
> four volumes.  (They would need at least that number to break
> even.)
>
>
>
> I love paper, but to think you can fit all four volumes of Bronson
> (for example) on one CD and sell it for a fraction of what four
> bulky volumes would cost just makes too much sense to ignore.
> Never mind whether the demand in low or high.
>
> Most of us don't have unlimited shelf space, not to mention
> unlimited dollars, so I hope to see more scarce old books recreated
> in electronic form as the years go by.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net
>

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Subject: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 00:44:21 -0500
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>From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Bronson volume 4
>
>Andrew:
>
>You will if David Kleiman, a subscriber to this list, has his way.
>
>First Child, then Bronson, and more in the pipeline.Bronson I can understand, but Child I don't. Loomis House has
already reprinted two volumes of the series recently in affordable
and attractive new volumes. I fully support and encourage
electronic scanning of rare books, but I think attention should be
focused on those unlikely to be reprinted in paper form.Andrew________________________________________________________________
Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

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Subject: Re: Bronson volume 4
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 04:00:40 EDT
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Subject: Bronson volume 4
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:45:53 -0500
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I'm in full agreement with Andrew. I'm fast running out of space and only
have vol 2. Like everyone else I'm eagerly watching the 4 vol set on ebay.
I could remortgage my house I suppose.
Steve G.

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: "Thomas H. Stern" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:38:45 -0400
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Has anyone gotten the Kleiman Child ROM?  It was supposed to be
available shortly after the Eisteddfod, where I purchased it, but
haven't gotten mine so far.
Thomas Stern.Andrew Brown wrote:> >From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: Bronson volume 4
> >
> >Andrew:
> >
> >You will if David Kleiman, a subscriber to this list, has his way.
> >
> >First Child, then Bronson, and more in the pipeline.
>
> Bronson I can understand, but Child I don't. Loomis House has
> already reprinted two volumes of the series recently in affordable
> and attractive new volumes. I fully support and encourage
> electronic scanning of rare books, but I think attention should be
> focused on those unlikely to be reprinted in paper form.
>
> Andrew
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:47:29 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]><<Bronson I can understand, but Child I don't. Loomis House has
already reprinted two volumes of the series recently in affordable
and attractive new volumes. I fully support and encourage
electronic scanning of rare books, but I think attention should be
focused on those unlikely to be reprinted in paper form.>>What's useful about the electronic Child edition is that it's not just a
scanned facsimile, but fully-searchable text.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 11:45:10 -0500
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At 12:44 AM 9/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>Bronson I can understand, but Child I don't. Loomis House has
>already reprinted two volumes of the series recently in affordable
>and attractive new volumes. I fully support and encourage
>electronic scanning of rare books, but I think attention should be
>focused on those unlikely to be reprinted in paper form.
>
>AndrewI find books to be for more appealing than CD-ROMs, but the search
capabilities that you get with CDs make them a far more useful tool for
researchers. On the other hand, sitting back in a chair with a book in your
lap is a lot easier than sitting at a desk reviewing a CD on the computer
screen (maybe).Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:05:29 -0700
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On Sat, Sep 20, 2003 at 11:38:45AM -0400, Thomas H. Stern wrote:
> Has anyone gotten the Kleiman Child ROM?  It was supposed to be
> available shortly after the Eisteddfod, where I purchased it, but
> haven't gotten mine so far.
> Thomas Stern.        Me neither.  I ordered mine *last* year at the American
Folklore Society convention.  Will he be at this year's in Albuquerque?
Peddling Bronsons?? -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:30:27 -0700
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Beth and others who missed David's announcement:Like the Child, the Bronson will be on disk, available for purchase.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 19, 2003 10:59 am
Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!> Thanks Ed! Let the list know when the digital version is up and running,
> if you please.
>
> B2
>
> >>> [unmask] 09/19/03 12:15 PM >>>
> Beth:
>
> Good news.  There is in the works a digital edition of Bronson.
>
> And while I prefer books over discs, I would guess that Princeton does not
> feel it can print and sell 1,000 copies of each of the four volumes.
> (They would need at least that number to break even.)
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
> Date: Friday, September 19, 2003 6:20 am
> Subject: Re: Ebay Special Alert: Bronson Volume 4!!
>
> > Well why in heaven's name don't they reprint them? If they're consistently
> > going for $200-400, I'd think that it would behoove some smart publisher
> > to run another series, even a small one.
> >
> > And on the Mary/Moll/Molly/Polly thread, after looking through 73 versions
> > of "Pretty Polly", I found only Mary/Molly/Polly connections, no
> > Margarets, Magdelenas, or other permutations. "Willie", the murderer in
> > the standard version of the song, is often William or even John or Johnny,
> > but Polly/Molly/Mary is constant, even when the variant is called "Molly,
> > Pretty Polly."
> >
> > Beth Brooks
> >
> > >>> [unmask] 09/19/03 07:49 AM >>>
> > At 03:08 AM 9/19/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> > >It went for over 200 quid/300 bucks, and I
> > >wasn't about to pay that amount! That's really serious money for a book.
> > >Is it a record for a Bronson volume?
> >
> > It seems like they usually go for $200 - $400.
> >
> > Paul Garon
> >
> >
> > Paul and Beth Garon
> > Beasley Books (ABAA)
> > 1533 W. Oakdale
> > Chicago, IL 60657
> > (773) 472-4528
> > (773) 472-7857 FAX
> > [unmask]
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:35:09 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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Andrew:I don't know who was first in the game, and I don't care to take sides.  (I am fortunate enough to have Ken Goldstein's reprint of Child in hardcover.)I guess it is best to let the market decide.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 19, 2003 10:44 pm
Subject: Bronson yes, but Child?> >From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
> >Subject: Re: Bronson volume 4
> >
> >Andrew:
> >
> >You will if David Kleiman, a subscriber to this list, has his way.
> >
> >First Child, then Bronson, and more in the pipeline.
>
> Bronson I can understand, but Child I don't. Loomis House has
> already reprinted two volumes of the series recently in affordable
> and attractive new volumes. I fully support and encourage
> electronic scanning of rare books, but I think attention should be
> focused on those unlikely to be reprinted in paper form.
>
> Andrew
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net
>

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 10:48:19 -0700
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Paul has summarized succinctly the major pros and cons.  I don't have it
handy, but I recall reading in the Intro to Bartlett's Shakespeare
Concordance published early in the 1900s, that he worked on it on and off
for some 20 years.  Then, just as he was nearing completion, a new edition
was published.  There was a rather wistful apology that his references were
all to the outdated edition, but he didn't have the time to revise.  Back in
the 1900s (and I suppose earlier) there were many masters' theses that
consisted of nothing more than a concordance to some major work of
literature.  Now it's a trivial task.  But lets not toss out the books.
Norm Cohen>
> I find books to be for more appealing than CD-ROMs, but the search
> capabilities that you get with CDs make them a far more useful tool for
> researchers. On the other hand, sitting back in a chair with a book in
your
> lap is a lot easier than sitting at a desk reviewing a CD on the computer
> screen (maybe).
>
> Paul Garon
>
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 12:00:42 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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Lani:A question:  do you have a shelf list of your personal folk song library?Norm Cohen, Lew Becker and I are thinking of compiling a comprehensive bibliography to be posted on the Fresno State website.  Would you like to join us?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, September 20, 2003 10:05 am
Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?> On Sat, Sep 20, 2003 at 11:38:45AM -0400, Thomas H. Stern wrote:
> > Has anyone gotten the Kleiman Child ROM?  It was supposed to be
> > available shortly after the Eisteddfod, where I purchased it, but
> > haven't gotten mine so far.
> > Thomas Stern.
>
>        Me neither.  I ordered mine *last* year at the American
> Folklore Society convention.  Will he be at this year's in Albuquerque?
> Peddling Bronsons?? -- Aloha, Lani
>
> <||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
> <||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360
>

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 14:10:42 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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On 9/20/03, Norm Cohen wrote:>Paul has summarized succinctly the major pros and cons.  I don't have it
>handy, but I recall reading in the Intro to Bartlett's Shakespeare
>Concordance published early in the 1900s, that he worked on it on and off
>for some 20 years.  Then, just as he was nearing completion, a new edition
>was published.  There was a rather wistful apology that his references were
>all to the outdated edition, but he didn't have the time to revise.  Back in
>the 1900s (and I suppose earlier) there were many masters' theses that
>consisted of nothing more than a concordance to some major work of
>literature.  Now it's a trivial task.  But lets not toss out the books.
>Norm CohenA better point: There is no reason one can't have BOTH. Making
the CD, at this point, is trivial; the material is all available
in the book.So on those occasions where a book is to be published, the
contents of the book (or perhaps just the song lyrics) can
be placed on CD and included with the book. Additional cost
to the publisher: A few pennies. But it gives the best of
both worlds.Of course, these days, there are a lot of things which will
never be published in paper form, and for those, the CD is
the only option. But the choice should not be CD vs. Book;
it should be CD vs. Book AND CD.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Fw: immuration
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:48:33 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Hi folks:A query from a friend. Can anyone help out? (Cross-posted to two lists;
sorry for the cross-, but it seems like the best way to get information from
many places!)Peace,
PaulDear Paul:
  A current topic of discussion on the EEFC list is all the songs describing
the interment of (usually young) women in the walls or foundations of
bridges
or buildings to ensure their stability, break the curse on a site, etc.
Examples of such songs abound in the Balkans and even all the way to India,
and I
remember some from British songs.  I thought some tales were in Grimm, but
Gitry [John's colleague - PJS] couln't find any.  Do you have any examples
you can remember?
-John Uhlemann

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 15:59:04 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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At 02:10 PM 9/20/2003 -0500, you wrote:>A better point: There is no reason one can't have BOTH. Making
>the CD, at this point, is trivial; the material is all available
>in the book.
>
>So on those occasions where a book is to be published, the
>contents of the book (or perhaps just the song lyrics) can
>be placed on CD and included with the book. Additional cost
>to the publisher: A few pennies. But it gives the best of
>both worlds.
>
>Of course, these days, there are a lot of things which will
>never be published in paper form, and for those, the CD is
>the only option. But the choice should not be CD vs. Book;
>it should be CD vs. Book AND CD.
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]There are a few other points to consider: Including a song CD with a book
may indeed only "cost" a dollar or so, but if there are royalties to be
paid, or heavy-duty packaging, or expensive promotional efforts, the cost
of the CD will go up very quickly.Further, some publishers have decided (apparently) that the actual
cheapness of a CD isn't going to get in their way of obtaining maximum
profit (known as greed in some quarters), so that what is really a $2 CD
hits the market at $800. Sometimes the book that was replaced by the CD was
a $800 book, sometimes it was a $1500 book.On the other hand:In the field of psychoanalysis, the complete contents of six major
journals, some going back to WW I, can be had on one CD for $750 (which may
be possibly higher now.) Complete runs of one of these periodicals use to
cost between $500 and $2500, whereas now you have every issue of the major
journals with supreme searchability, for less than $1000. Anyone who has
spent time thumbing through Volumes 1-5 of something while trying to hold
open Volume 6, the index volume, will surely not mind singing the praises
of the inventor of the CD!Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:57:29 -0500
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On 9/20/03, Paul Garon wrote:[ ... ]>There are a few other points to consider: Including a song CD with a book
>may indeed only "cost" a dollar or so, but if there are royalties to be
>paid, or heavy-duty packaging, or expensive promotional efforts, the cost
>of the CD will go up very quickly.Royalties? Promotional efforts? For a book of traditional music? :-)I put a smiley on that, but I'm at least semi-serious. It *could*
be done, and the author can encourage it in negotiating the
publishing deal. *If* anyone were still publishing scholarly
works on folk music, anyway. Not that anyone is.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: [unmask]
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Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:48:31 EDT
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Subject: My Error
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
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Date:Sat, 20 Sep 2003 18:29:58 -0700
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Folks:I apologize for sending to the list a message meant for just one subscriber.  I should check the addresses more carefully.Ed

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:59:32 -0500
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On 9/20/03, Paul Garon wrote:>There are a few other points to consider: Including a song CD with a book
>may indeed only "cost" a dollar or so, but if there are royalties to be
>paid, or heavy-duty packaging, or expensive promotional efforts, the cost
>of the CD will go up very quickly.and Bob Waltz wrote:<<Royalties? Promotional efforts? For a book of traditional music? :-)I put a smiley on that, but I'm at least semi-serious. It *could*
be done, and the author can encourage it in negotiating the
publishing deal. *If* anyone were still publishing scholarly
works on folk music, anyway. Not that anyone is.>>Well, U of I Press is. But to return to Paul G's concern, I think we were
mostly discussing having a CD appear with a book that included the text of
the book rather than sung versions, for the sake of searchability.
Presumably on a book like Child, no royalties needed.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:01:07 -0500
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<<Certainly Long Lankin is at least related to the Immuration ballad cycle>>Only that it involves a construction worker! He's not walling up people,
he's killing them because his bill wasn't paid.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:07:27 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]><<There does though seem to be quite a widespread morbid fascination with
the
idea that your local motorway flyover (or whatever) has a corpse or two
entombed within it.>>When I was growing up in Chicago, the interstate system was being
constructed, including several new expressways serving (?) the city. As each
one opened, I remember people speculating which disappeared gangsters might
be in it.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 21 Sep 2003 09:57:56 -0700
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On Sun, Sep 21, 2003 at 10:59:32AM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:
> On 9/20/03, Paul Garon wrote:
>
> >There are a few other points to consider: Including a song CD with a book
> >may indeed only "cost" a dollar or so, but if there are royalties to be
> >paid, or heavy-duty packaging, or expensive promotional efforts, the cost
> >of the CD will go up very quickly.
>
> and Bob Waltz wrote:
>
> <<Royalties? Promotional efforts? For a book of traditional music? :-)
>
> I put a smiley on that, but I'm at least semi-serious. It *could*
> be done, and the author can encourage it in negotiating the
> publishing deal. *If* anyone were still publishing scholarly
> works on folk music, anyway. Not that anyone is.>>
>
> Well, U of I Press is. But to return to Paul G's concern, I think we were
> mostly discussing having a CD appear with a book that included the text of
> the book rather than sung versions, for the sake of searchability.
> Presumably on a book like Child, no royalties needed.        Ahem.  I seem to remember one of the talking points for D. Kleiman's
        Child re-edition was an added sound recording of Child ballads
        sung mainly by respected revivalist artists.  ?  -- aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:25:33 -0500
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On 9/21/03, Paul Stamler wrote:>On 9/20/03, Paul Garon wrote:
>
>>There are a few other points to consider: Including a song CD with a book
>>may indeed only "cost" a dollar or so, but if there are royalties to be
>>paid, or heavy-duty packaging, or expensive promotional efforts, the cost
>>of the CD will go up very quickly.
>
>and Bob Waltz wrote:
>
><<Royalties? Promotional efforts? For a book of traditional music? :-)
>
>I put a smiley on that, but I'm at least semi-serious. It *could*
>be done, and the author can encourage it in negotiating the
>publishing deal. *If* anyone were still publishing scholarly
>works on folk music, anyway. Not that anyone is.>>
>
>Well, U of I Press is. But to return to Paul G's concern, I think we were
>mostly discussing having a CD appear with a book that included the text of
>the book rather than sung versions, for the sake of searchability.
>Presumably on a book like Child, no royalties needed.I was, at least. A CD can hold at most a few dozen songs in AIFF format,
and generally less than 100 in MP3 form. But it could hold all of
Bronson in MIDI or ABC form.And, in any case, I meant the text. As searchable ASCII or something.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:39:04 -0500
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On 9/21/03, Paul Stamler wrote:><<Certainly Long Lankin is at least related to the Immuration ballad cycle>>
>
>Only that it involves a construction worker! He's not walling up people,
>he's killing them because his bill wasn't paid.Well -- but blood *does* get used in such construction sometimes.
(Sometimes blood of virgins, as you imply.) There is even a sort
of reference in the Bible, though it's not absolutely clear:
1 Kings 16:34: Hiel rebuilt Jericho "at the cost" of his oldest
and youngest sons; general feeling is that he sacrificed them
to make the city stronger. I seem to recall, vaguely, a version
of Lamkin in which Lamkin used the blood for such a purpose.Aren't there versions of "Sir Hugh" that involve blood rituals
also?In a twisted way, "The Twa Sisters" is a variation on a blood
legend, too: That a body will bleed again in the presence of
its murderer. Not that that has anything to do with building.There is some evidence that infants' blood was used in ancient
architecture -- at both Troy and Mycenaean Greece, IIRC. Though
that's not mentioned in any songs I know.Oh well, I'll shut up until I find a song reference....--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Ebay List - 09/21/03
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:47:14 -0400
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Hi!        We survived Isabel with only a one hour power outage (unlike a
lot of folks in Washington, DC suburbs). As a result, I have been able
to continue searching Ebay for books. Here are the latest finds.        SONGSTERS        558990916 - Wehman Song and Joke Book, 1901, $9.99 (ends
Sep-23-03 18:13:28 PDT)        2558991479 - Temperance Chimes, 1870, $13.28 (ends Sep-23-03
18:15:56 PDT)        2559081849 - The Thanksgiving Songster, 1909, $1.25 (ends
Sep-24-03 08:30:34 PDT)        3627618284 - Merchant's Gargling Oil Songster, $5 (ends
Sep-24-03 18:51:15 PDT)        3552809024 - Beadle's Dime Song Book Series, No. 34. CENTENNIAL
SONGSTER, 1876, $19.38 (ends Sep-28-03 10:09:59 PDT)        3553269792 - The Silver Chord, 1862, $9.99 (ends Sep-27-03
15:00:00 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3552232147 - The British Broadside Ballad and its Music by
Simpson, 1966, $29.95 (ends Sep-23-03 19:30:00 PDT)        3552491867 - A folk song history of America by Forcucci, 1984,
$8 (ends Sep-23-03 20:33:14 PDT)        3551792076 - SCOTTISH NURSERY RHYMES by Montgomerie, 1946, 6 GBP
(ends Sep-24-03 03:36:52 PDT)        2559053573 - Songs of The Sea by Kinsey, 1989, 3.90 GBP (ends
Sep-24-03 04:44:52 PDT)        2558472944 - SONGS FO THE HEBRIDES by Kennedy Fraser & MacLeod,
3 booklets, 1950, 4.99 GBP (ends Sep-24-03 12:05:15 PDT)        3552935418 - Researches into the Mediaeval History of Folk
Ballad by Vargyas, 1967, $7 (ends Sep-25-03 18:57:01 PDT)        3552944939 - The Ballad Mongers, Rise of the Modern Folk Song by
Brand, 1967, $5 (ends Sep-25-03 19:37:35 PDT)        3552275717 - A BALLAD HISTORY OF ENGLAND FROM 1588 TO THE
PRESENT DAY by Palmer, 1979, $9.95 (ends Sep-25-03 21:22:28 PDT)        2559462596 - 2 books (A SELECTION OF COLLECTED FOLK SONGS by
Sharp & Williams, 1923? and ENGLISH FOLK SONGS by Barrett), 7.50 GBP
(ends Sep-25-03 23:20:40 PDT)        3553037361 - Ballads from Scottish History by Clyne, 1863, 3 GBP
(ends Sep-26-03 09:24:44 PDT)        3553070344 - Songs and Ballads of the American Revolution, 1905,
$5.99 (ends Sep-26-03 12:07:44 PDT)        3553080968 - SALLY GO ROUND THE SUN by Fowke, $1 (ends Sep-26-03
12:52:05 PDT)        2559614125 - Roustabout Songs A Collection of Ohio River Valley
Songs by Wheeler, 1939, $9 (ends Sep-26-03 18:46:56 PDT)        2559678097 - Bradley Kinkaid Folio No. 12, 1941, $6.99 (ends
Sep-27-03 07:14:51 PDT)        3553217393 - Young Ireland Song Book, 1966?, $15.50 (ends
Sep-27-03 07:46:12 PDT)        3350280853 - Bradley Kincaid Songbook No. 8, 1937, $6.95 (ends
Sep-27-03 18:28:47 PDT)        3552743270 - Australian Bush Ballads by Stewart & Keesing, 1962,
$20 AU (ends Sep-28-03 02:38:28 PDT)        3553517814 - Secular Music in America 1802-1825 by Wolfe, 1964,
$29.95 (ends Sep-28-03 11:59:56 PDT)        3553564933 - Iron Men & Wooden Ships by Shay, 1924, $19.99 (ends
Sep-28-03 14:13:42 PDT)        3553168281 - The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library Catalogue of
the English Folk Dance and song Society, 1973, $9 (ends Sep-26-03
21:44:12 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Bronson yes, but Child?
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 01:08:36 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]><<Ahem.  I seem to remember one of the talking points for D. Kleiman's
        Child re-edition was an added sound recording of Child ballads
        sung mainly by respected revivalist artists.  ?  -- aloha, Lani>>Well, ye-e-e-s...okay, ya got me, but that was in addition to the searchable
disc of the text and music, and was really lagniappe, over and above the
core of the project. But as a general principle, I'd be very happy to see
every edition of a newly reissued book come with a searchable CD containing
the text.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 01:15:49 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<Aren't there versions of "Sir Hugh" that involve blood rituals
also?>>Yes, but again building isn't involved. "Sir Hugh" is essentially a
blood-libel song, where the Jew or his wife is killing a child for the
blood, which is used (according to the story) to make matzo for Passover.
You can't build a house from matzo, any more than you can from straw; ask
the three little...er, on second thought, let's change the subject.Seriously, I've never seen a version which had anything to do with
construction. Incidentally, lest someone think the blood-libel is strictly
from the middle ages, I believe the last blood-libel trial in Russia was
held sometime in the first decade of the twentieth century, well within the
lifetimes of my grandparents. (Who were, thank goodness, outa there by
then.)Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: [unmask]
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Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:48:21 EDT
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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 12:11:15 -0400
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At 10:48 AM 9/22/03 -0400, you wrote:
>.....Furthermore, the victims are the wife and her baby, which are
>inevitably the same victims in many of the immuration ballads.  (The wife
>is walled up and requests a hole through which she can nurse her
>baby,  etc.)  The unpaid bill has always struck me as late add to the
>ballad to explain the murders.This reminds me of something that I remember from when I lived in Puerto
Rico years ago.  There was a very old convent there in Old San Juan, which
went neglected for many years.  Finally it was sold and renovated to become
the very swank "El Conveto" hotel.  I was told that when the renovations
were going on, it came out in the newspapers that several skeletons of
newborn babies were found walled up in various old stone walls within the
convent.  -I guess those nuns' habits were capable of hiding a lot.....
Lisa

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:42:12 EDT
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Subject: Re: Fw:Immuration
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:09:21 -0500
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What wonderful imagination some of you have. Lamkin is obviously a
straightforward ballad with no hidden messages. It is very likely based on
real events. It is certainly located in local tradition to a place in
Northumberland called Welton Hall near which there is even a Lonkin's Hall.
The story of Long Lankin is a local tradition. There are several claims in
Scotland to the location of the ballad also.
While we're on walling up bones there's a mansion near to me which has a
walled up skull (true) Burton Agnes Hall. The tradition states that when
the skull has been removed from the house on several occasions in the past,
all sorts of chaos has ensued, so they simply walled it up to stop it being
removed. The skull is of a daughter of the house who was killed by robbers.
Steve G.

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Subject: Re: Fw: immuration
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:51:34 -0500
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On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:42:12 EDT, Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
wrote:>
>There was blood in the parlour.
>There was blood in the hall.
>There was blood in the kitchen,
>Where the lady did fall.
>
>Which sounds to me as though there has been a ritual smearing of the
stuff.
>
Sorry Fred, but I don't buy that, even in the context. If you've done any
fresh butchering (not even slaughtering) - not of humans of course ;o) -
then you'll know that blood gets everywhere. In any case I see this as
more like a horror film scene as the bleeding woman staggers from room to
room leaving a gory trail.Cheers
Simon

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Subject: Re: Fw:Immuration
From: "David G. Engle" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:15:19 -0700
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>What wonderful imagination some of you have. Lamkin is obviously a
>straightforward ballad with no hidden messages. It is very likely based on
>real events. It is certainly located in local tradition to a place in
>Northumberland called Welton Hall near which there is even a Lonkin's Hall.
>The story of Long Lankin is a local tradition. There are several claims in
>Scotland to the location of the ballad also.
>While we're on walling up bones there's a mansion near to me which has a
>walled up skull (true) Burton Agnes Hall. The tradition states that when
>the skull has been removed from the house on several occasions in the past,
>all sorts of chaos has ensued, so they simply walled it up to stop it being
>removed. The skull is of a daughter of the house who was killed by robbers.
>Steve G.I see no reason why there cannot be a sublim3inal "survival" of
immuration in the Lamkin ballad, even while the more obvious mayhem
is foregrounded.  I think such "coexistence" is actually fairly
common.David
--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

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Subject: Re: Fw:Immuration
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:26:53 -0500
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A tradition which seems to make it's way to the "folk" even today.One of the more entertaining aspects of living in the French Quarter is
sitting on ones balcony on cool evenings and listening to the sweet
tones of tour guides telling enchanting tales of ghosts and vampires
which haunt the local buildings. [Of course we older residents knew
nothing of these spirits until the tours began some ten years ago!]About a year ago I overheard a guide recounting the story of a recent
discovery, a "Woman in the Wall" of my home [I must have been out that
day and yes, my wife and daughters are all fine and accounted for]. He
then told of a body found entombed in a Hoover bag with a cross made of
knitting needles.Unfortunately for him [but unknown to his flock] I knew the source of
his saga, a song by the English pop group "The Beautiful South" entitled
"Woman in the Wall" and recorded in 1989. A wonderful, bouncy little
ditty with a charming chorus:Cry freedom for the woman in the wall
Cry freedom for she has no voice at all
I hear her cry all day, all night
I hear her voice from deep within the wall
Made a cross from knitting needles
Made a grave from Hoover bags
Especially for the woman in the wallToo bad the guide failed to "sing" for his supper.

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Subject: Re: Fw:Immuration
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 22 Sep 2003 19:18:49 -0700
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Clifford:Droll.  Droll.The cupidity of some people -- including the tour guide.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, September 22, 2003 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: Fw:Immuration> A tradition which seems to make it's way to the "folk" even today.
>
> One of the more entertaining aspects of living in the French Quarter is
> sitting on ones balcony on cool evenings and listening to the sweet
> tones of tour guides telling enchanting tales of ghosts and vampires
> which haunt the local buildings. [Of course we older residents knew
> nothing of these spirits until the tours began some ten years ago!]
>
> About a year ago I overheard a guide recounting the story of a recent
> discovery, a "Woman in the Wall" of my home [I must have been out that
> day and yes, my wife and daughters are all fine and accounted for]. He
> then told of a body found entombed in a Hoover bag with a cross made of
> knitting needles.
>
> Unfortunately for him [but unknown to his flock] I knew the source of
> his saga, a song by the English pop group "The Beautiful South" entitled
> "Woman in the Wall" and recorded in 1989. A wonderful, bouncy little
> ditty with a charming chorus:
>
> Cry freedom for the woman in the wall
> Cry freedom for she has no voice at all
> I hear her cry all day, all night
> I hear her voice from deep within the wall
> Made a cross from knitting needles
> Made a grave from Hoover bags
> Especially for the woman in the wall
>
> Too bad the guide failed to "sing" for his supper.
>

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Subject: immuration
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:21:35 +0100
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>> There does though seem to be quite a widespread morbid fascination
>> with the idea that your local motorway flyover (or whatever) has
>> a corpse or two entombed within it.
> When I was growing up in Chicago, the interstate system was being
> constructed, including several new expressways serving (?) the city.
> As each one opened, I remember people speculating which disappeared
> gangsters might be in it.When the serial killer Fred West got caught, reconstructing his earlier
life revealed that he spent some time living beside and working on the
M8 (Glasgow-Edinburgh motorway) while it was being built or extended.
It was at one point proposed that they should dismantle a couple of miles
of motorway to look for more bodies; presumably the Procurator-Fiscal
told whoever wanted to do that not to be silly.  (Or maybe somebody
figured that what might have gone wrong with the Kingston Bridge in
Glasgow was not having a body underneath, so if it ain't broke don't fix
it).The papers reported the corpse of a small baby being found embedded
in a concrete block in England last week.There is a one-stage-removed idea described in Frazer's "Golden Bough",
where builders (in Romania, I think) would wait until somebody's shadow
fell over a wall under construction and then slap a mortared brick over
it, thereby trapping the soul of the passer-by, who would die within a
year.  Did that one make it into song?BTW Harlan Ellison's story "Pretty Maggie Moneyeyes" (soul caught in
a fruit machine) could make a good song someday.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.

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Subject: The Wild West Show -- A Bawdy Folksong
From: John Mehlberg <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2003 11:54:12 -0500
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Hello, ballad-l, my name is John Mehlberg.  Ed Cray has asked me to post an
email conversation we had about a bawdy folksong called "The Wild West Show"
(aka "The Hamburg Show") and how it is related to the once popular song
called "The Menagerie" (aka "Van Amburgh is the Man").To listen to the bawdy song in mp3 format (531KB) click here:          http://mehlberg.com/wild_west_show.mp3The earliest printed text for the bawdy version can be found in _Immortalia_
[1927] pgs.153-154.  If anyone has the non-bawdy version in a songbook or a
sheet music version of "The Menagerie", Ed Cray <[unmask]> and I
<[unmask]> would appreciate a photocopy of the text/tune with any
references.Thanks!John Mehlberg       ~~~~~~~~    BEGIN CONVERSATION   ~~~~~~~~~JOHN MEHLBERG
> > I just checked the index & thumbed through _The Erotic Muse II_ and was
> > unable to find "The Wild West Show".    Did I miss it?ED CRAY
> No, you did not miss it.  At the time I worked on the second edition, I
> had three or four versions of it -- as a recitation -- but no tune for the
> chorus.
>
> The cante fable is derived from a mid-19th Century popular song "Van
> Amburgh's Circus," or "Van Amburgh Is the Man."
>
> I have tunes now for the song, but untranscribed and awaiting my uncertain
> hand.JOHN MEHLBERG
Of the "Wild West Show", the only song that I could find in reference to Van
Amburgh is the once popular song called "The Menagerie" (see below).The non-bawdy song "Van Amburgh is the Man" still survives as a folk song
and at least one family still sings the song to their children. See here:
http://www.ohscatalog.org/ohscatalog/marsanpipatc.htmlDid you want me to find sheet music for this song?                        THE MENAGERIE
(From http://www.pleasantplainsfarm.com/program.htm )    Van Amburgh is the man, who goes to all the shows
    He goes into the lion's cage, and tells you all he knows;
    He sticks his head in the lion's mouth,and keeps it there a-while,
    And when he pulls it out again, he greets you with a smile.    Chorus:
         The elephant goes around, The band begins to play,
         The boys around the monkey's cage had better get out of the way.    First comes the African Polar Bear, oft called the Iceberg's Daughter,
    She eats three cakes of ice per day then calls for soda water;
    She wades in the water up to her knees, not fearing any harm,
    You may growl and grumble as much as you please, and she don't give a
    "darn."     (chorus)    That Hyena in the next cage, most terrible to relate,
    Got awful hungry the other day, and ate up his female mate;
    He's a very ferocious beast, don't go near him little boys,
    For when he's angry he shakes his tail, and makes this awful noise.
    (imitate growling)    (chorus)    Next comes the Anaconda Boa Constrictor, oft called Anaconda for
    brevity,
    He's known throughout the whole wide world for his age and great
    longevity;
    He can swallow himself, crawl into himself, and crawl out again with
    facility,
    He can tie himself into a double-bow-knot with his tail, and smile with
    the greatest facility.    (chorus)    Next comes the Great Vulture, awful bird, from highest mountain's top,
    He's been known to eat up little girls, and then to lick his chops;
    The performance can't go on, there's too much noise and confusion,
    Ladies don't feed those monkeys cakes, you'll ruin their constitutions.    (chorus)ED CRAY
> Somewhere in my notes I have reference the "original," inspired by an
> actual British circus.JOHN MEHLBERG
Here is some information about the American circus headed by Van Amburgh.
Retrieved from
[unmask]">http:[unmask]<begin paste>
Isaac Van Amburgh was born in the town of Fishkill, New York May 26, 1808,
and attended the small schoolhouse at Johnsville, built in 1794. At 19,
Isaac left home, engaged in several business ventures, then became connected
with the menagerie of Raymond & Co. This was the largest menagerie which had
been collected up to that time.     After performing feats which no man had heretofore attempted
     with wild animals, it was announced through the press that
     Van Amburgh would enter the den of lions like Daniel of old . . .
     Strong appeals were made to the manager from the pulpit and
     the press, imploring him to desist from such an undertaking. . .
     In the fall of 1833, at the Richmond Hill Theatre, Van Amburgh
     performed a feat with the lions and tigers that, with the exception
     of the prophet Daniel, had baffled the skill and sagacity of man
     in all former ages. He volunteered to drive through Broadway in
     a chariot drawn by lions and tigers, but the authorities Interfered.(Henry DuBois Bailey, Local Tales and Historical Sketches, Fishkill
Landing, N.Y. John W. Spaight, 1874. The author of this memoir was a boyhood
friend of Van Amburgh.)Bailey further tells that Van Amburgh's fame rapidly spread throughout the
United States; that many of his old schoolmates, including Bailey, went to
New York to see Isaac Van Amburgh enter the den of lions and tigers. The
spectacle was described as "sub-lime and fearful".The greatest animal trainer of his day, Van Amburgh soon had a show of his
own with which he toured this country and Europe. He appeared before Queen
Victoria, who was so fascinated with his performances that she went on the
stage to see the animals fed and then issued orders for a command
performance at Drury Lane on Jan. 29, 1839, with full court regalia.  A song
called "The Menagerie" popular years ago had a verse as follows:     Van Amburgh is the man who goes to all the shows,
     He goes into the lions' den, and tells you all he knows,
     He sticks his head into the lion's mouth, and keeps it there awhile,
     And when he takes it out again he greets you with a smile."A handbill announcing an exhibit of the Zoological Institute, No. 37
Bowery, pictures a lithe young man, Mr. Van Amburgh, the "unrivalled
Conqueror and Manager of the Whole Brute Creation". The date has been
approximated as 1837. (Museum of Akin Memorial Library, Quaker Hill,
Pawling, N.Y.)In 1848, Van Amburgh traveled through Fishkill with his menagerie and
nearly all of the residents of the town of Fishkill and East Fishkill turned
out to see him. Bailey states, "it was said this would be his last visit to
his native place except as a private citizen. The writer saw him enter the
cages of the lions and tigers for the last time, and with what thrilling
interest did the large audience witness the wonderful control he had over
those ferocious beasts of the forests. In conversation with him my mind
reverted to the scenes of our childhood, when we went to school together....
I saw at a glance that he had not deviated from the path of virtue, and
had shunned the intoxication bowl. His appearance was noble; his height
rather more than six feet. Age had made no impression on that powerful
frame. I felt myself in the presence of more than an ordinary man . . ."Isaac Van Amburgh, a great grandson of Thomas Davenport, the Fhilipstown
pioneer, died Nov. 29, 1865, in Philadelphia. He is buried beside his mother
in St. George's Cemetery at Newburgh, N.Y. (See, Ver Nooy, Amy, The Animals
Came to Town, published in Year Book, Dutchess County Historical Society,
Vol. 41, 1956)
<end paste>

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Subject: Re: Fw:Immuration
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2003 14:11:31 -0500
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Clifford,
The idea comes full circle....The Beautiful South hail from my home city of
Hull, which is about 25 miles from Burton Agnes mentioned earlier.
Steve G.

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Subject: Re: The Wild West Show -- A Bawdy Folksong
From: John Mehlberg <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:50:42 -0500
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I forgot to include a text for "The Wild West Show".Here are two versions the first from 1927 _Immortalia_ and the second from
pgs. 58-59 of the _National Engineering Book of Song & Verse_ (n.a., n.p.,
n.d. [ca. 1969]. Copies: Ed Cray & John Mehlberg.)                              THE HAMBURG SHOW      Ladies and gents, are you ready? Larry turn the crank-            For we're going to the Hamburg Show,
                 See the monkey and the wild kangaroo,
            And we'll all stick together in all sorts of weather
                 For we're gonna see the whole show through.      And in the next cage, we have the South American
      Llama who roams the wild mountain ranges
      Of the Andes, leaping from precipice
      To precipice, and back to piss again.      Larry turn the crank, etc.      And in the next cage, we have the Javanese Baboon
      Who is so fat that every time time he winks his eye
      He skins his prick. The ladies delight in throwing
      Sand in his eyes to watch him masturbate.      Chorus:      And in the next cage we have the Australian Ostrich
      Who, when frightened, sticks his head
      Deep down into the desert sand and farts-
      Hence the antipodal trade winds.      Chorus:      And in the next cage, we have the spotted leopard
      Who has a spot for each day of the year.
      You ask, lady, what he does in leap year?
      Under his tail, madam, you will find the extra spot.      Chorus:      And in the next cage, we have the hippotamus
      Who has a square ass-hole and eats mud.
      Every time he shits he shits bricks,
      Hence the pyramids and Stanford University.      Chorus:      And in the next cage, we have the elephant
      Who, strange enough, holds intercourse
      But once each hundred years; but when-he-do-
      HE DO!-and how he does enjoy it!      Chorus:      And in the next cage, we have the rhinoceros
      The wealthiest animal alive. His name comes from
      Rhino meaning money, and sore ass meaning piles-
      Hence, piles of money. See his ass in the bank.      Chorus :**************************************************            THE WILD WEST SHOW       Chorus:
              We are off to see the wild west show
              With the elephants and the kangaroos
              No matter what the weather
              As long as we're together
              We're off to see the wild west show.       Ladies and Gentleman: In the far ring we have
            the 00 00 AA AA bird.       (Crowd:) OOOH fantastic incredible, what the
            hell is an 00 00 AA AA bird?       The 00 00 AA AA bird is a rare and exotic
       bird found in the deserts of Australia. It
       has three foot legs and four foot testicles,
       and every time it lands, it goes 00 00 AA AA.       L & G ............................ giraffe
       (Crowd:) .....       The giraffe from the Savannas of Africa is
       the only animal that can walk into a bar
       and say, "The high-balls are on me."       L & G ............ wherethefuckarewe tribe
       (Crowd:) .....       This is a tribe of four foot pigmies found in
       deepest darkest Africa that walks through
       five foot high grass shouting: "Where the fuck are we?
       Where the fuck are we?"       L & G...................... orangutan  bird
       (Crowd:) .....       The orangutan bird is found in the mountains
       of Africa. It's left ball is made of steel
       and it's right ball is made of copper. Every
       time it lands, it goes oran-gu-tan,
       oran-gu-tan.       L & G.............. rhinosaurus
       (Crowd:) .....       The rhinosaurus is reputed to be the richest
       animal in the world. It's name is derived
       from the Latin - rhino meaning money and
       soreass meaning piles. Hence - piles of
       money.       L  &  G   ...................... kerii bird
       (Crowd:) .....       The kerrii bird lives north of the Arctic
       Circle. Every time it comes in to land on the
       ice it says, "Kerii kerii ker-ist it's cold."       L & G .................... winky wank bird
       (Crowd:) .....       By some strange evolutionary occurance, the
       nervous system of this bird's eyelids is
       connected to its foreskin. Every time it
       winks, it wanks and every time it wanks, it
       winks.

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: Sadie Damascus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2003 16:30:58 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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>
>I think that the following are characteristics of oral transmisstion:
>
>(1) There will be substitutions prompted by mishearing, misrecall,
>and mental associations.
>(2) The familiar will replace the unfamiliar.
>(3) The simpler will replace the more complex.
>(4) The plausible will replace the implausible.
>(5) Better rhymes will replace faulty ones.
>(6) The recent versions of a very popular ballad will less valuable
>than older ones, as far as historicity is concerned, because the
>recent versions will have been changed substantially by the processes
>listed above. As change occurs, a ballad will tend toward a stable
>end point, that is, changes will have occurred that removed all of
>the earlier needs for change.
>
>**Are these principles reasonable?**
>**Are there others?**I think you could add that the miracles or supernatural touches that
instigate justice or divine retribution in many original ballads are often
dropped or changed or rationalized through long transmission or during
geographical change.In many American versions of the "Twa Sisters", the whole meaningful
element of the magical harp made from the dead sister, that told the story
of her murder at the guilty sister's wedding, is gone.  Instead the song
ends with the cruel miller robbing the drowning sister of her rings without
rescuing her, or even the miller being hanged for the murder and the guilty
sister gleefully narrating the story.    A similar loss occurs with the
speaking bird in "Young Hunting", who in later versions does not tell of
the murder and suggest where the body may be found, but merely twits the
guilty sweetheart and flies away at her threat.Sorry...I'm a lurker who was just knocked out of her tree....Sadie Damascus

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Subject: Message to Jack Campin
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:04:31 -0400
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Sorry to bother Ballad-L with this. "Reply:' on Jack Campin's
messages to me today (Tuesday) isn't working. Yes I'm here, but my
answer isn't getting back to you. Please let me know here or by private
email if you got my two messages today. One bounced back as
undeliverable 2 times, and the other once so far.
On the query regarding a name, I'm lost as to what you want to
know. But I'm lost on a lot of things at the moment. I'm now one
day out of a 6 day hospital stay that started last Tuesday at the
emergency room. It took over an hour to clear all the spam from
my 279 emails I had when I got home, and a lot of the rest
remains unread.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: What's in a name? (long)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:25:54 -0400
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Sadie Damascus wrote:
>
> >
> >I think that the following are characteristics of oral transmisstion:
> >
> >(1) There will be substitutions prompted by mishearing, misrecall,
> >and mental associations.
> >(2) The familiar will replace the unfamiliar.
> >(3) The simpler will replace the more complex.
> >(4) The plausible will replace the implausible.
> >(5) Better rhymes will replace faulty ones.
> >(6) The recent versions of a very popular ballad will less valuable
> >than older ones, as far as historicity is concerned, because the
> >recent versions will have been changed substantially by the processes
> >listed above. As change occurs, a ballad will tend toward a stable
> >end point, that is, changes will have occurred that removed all of
> >the earlier needs for change.
> >
> >**Are these principles reasonable?**
> >**Are there others?**
>
> I think you could add that the miracles or supernatural touches that
> instigate justice or divine retribution in many original ballads are often
> dropped or changed or rationalized through long transmission or during
> geographical change.
>
> In many American versions of the "Twa Sisters", the whole meaningful
> element of the magical harp made from the dead sister, that told the story
> of her murder at the guilty sister's wedding, is gone.  Instead the song
> ends with the cruel miller robbing the drowning sister of her rings without
> rescuing her, or even the miller being hanged for the murder and the guilty
> sister gleefully narrating the story.    A similar loss occurs with the
> speaking bird in "Young Hunting", who in later versions does not tell of
> the murder and suggest where the body may be found, but merely twits the
> guilty sweetheart and flies away at her threat.
>
> Sorry...I'm a lurker who was just knocked out of her tree....
>
> Sadie DamascusAll that happens, but I believe the James Smith's version in
'Musarum Delicae', 1658, is the original, and the purported
'broadside ballad text', Child 'A', from Notes and Queries, was
accompanied by a spurious history. Smith's text, I would like to
believe, is a metrical rendition of a tale, song, or ballad from
Scandanavia.I also believe one will find just about anything one wants in
some version of "The Two Sisters", because it is in continuous
evolution, and will go on to yet other versions not yet seen or heard.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 23 Sep 2003 21:59:15 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Related to several previous messages, this weekend I plan to begin
scanning borrowed copies of Laws' Native American Balladry (Second
Edition) and Chappell's John Henry: A Folk-Lore Study (Kennikat
Press 1968 edition) for my own use. I will be scanning these at
300 dpi, 2-page spreads into Acrobat PDF files. I would like to
make these PDF files accessible to those interested via CD or the
web, unless there are objections about file sharing copyrighted
material.If anyone's heard vague or direct rumors that either of these
books are to be restored to print anytime soon, please inform me.
I don't need to scan them if print editions are forthcoming.Thanks,Andrew________________________________________________________________
Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

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Subject: Re: The Wild West Show -- A Bawdy Folksong
From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:52:46 +0100
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I remember this vaguely from "rugby club" type sing arounds. The chorus,
which is the only bit I remember the details of, goes    We're off to see the Wild West Show,
    The Elephant and the Kangaroo
    Never mind the weather
    So long as we're together
    We're off to see the Wild West Show.    And in the next cage we have...........Then similar verses to those quoted would come along and I can add one other
about the ooslem bird which flew around in circles and finally disappeared
up its own backside.HTHDave
www.collectorsfolk.com----- Original Message -----
From: "John Mehlberg" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 10:50 PM
Subject: Re: The Wild West Show -- A Bawdy Folksong> I forgot to include a text for "The Wild West Show".
>
> Here are two versions the first from 1927 _Immortalia_ and the second from
> pgs. 58-59 of the _National Engineering Book of Song & Verse_ (n.a., n.p.,
> n.d. [ca. 1969]. Copies: Ed Cray & John Mehlberg.)
>
>
>                               THE HAMBURG SHOW
>
>       Ladies and gents, are you ready? Larry turn the crank-
>
>             For we're going to the Hamburg Show,
>                  See the monkey and the wild kangaroo,
>             And we'll all stick together in all sorts of weather
>                  For we're gonna see the whole show through.
>
>       And in the next cage, we have the South American
>       Llama who roams the wild mountain ranges
>       Of the Andes, leaping from precipice
>       To precipice, and back to piss again.
>
>       Larry turn the crank, etc.
>
>       And in the next cage, we have the Javanese Baboon
>       Who is so fat that every time time he winks his eye
>       He skins his prick. The ladies delight in throwing
>       Sand in his eyes to watch him masturbate.
>
>       Chorus:
>
>       And in the next cage we have the Australian Ostrich
>       Who, when frightened, sticks his head
>       Deep down into the desert sand and farts-
>       Hence the antipodal trade winds.
>
>       Chorus:
>
>       And in the next cage, we have the spotted leopard
>       Who has a spot for each day of the year.
>       You ask, lady, what he does in leap year?
>       Under his tail, madam, you will find the extra spot.
>
>       Chorus:
>
>       And in the next cage, we have the hippotamus
>       Who has a square ass-hole and eats mud.
>       Every time he shits he shits bricks,
>       Hence the pyramids and Stanford University.
>
>       Chorus:
>
>       And in the next cage, we have the elephant
>       Who, strange enough, holds intercourse
>       But once each hundred years; but when-he-do-
>       HE DO!-and how he does enjoy it!
>
>       Chorus:
>
>       And in the next cage, we have the rhinoceros
>       The wealthiest animal alive. His name comes from
>       Rhino meaning money, and sore ass meaning piles-
>       Hence, piles of money. See his ass in the bank.
>
>       Chorus :
>
>
> **************************************************
>
>
>             THE WILD WEST SHOW
>
>        Chorus:
>               We are off to see the wild west show
>               With the elephants and the kangaroos
>               No matter what the weather
>               As long as we're together
>               We're off to see the wild west show.
>
>        Ladies and Gentleman: In the far ring we have
>             the 00 00 AA AA bird.
>
>        (Crowd:) OOOH fantastic incredible, what the
>             hell is an 00 00 AA AA bird?
>
>        The 00 00 AA AA bird is a rare and exotic
>        bird found in the deserts of Australia. It
>        has three foot legs and four foot testicles,
>        and every time it lands, it goes 00 00 AA AA.
>
>        L & G ............................ giraffe
>        (Crowd:) .....
>
>        The giraffe from the Savannas of Africa is
>        the only animal that can walk into a bar
>        and say, "The high-balls are on me."
>
>        L & G ............ wherethefuckarewe tribe
>        (Crowd:) .....
>
>        This is a tribe of four foot pigmies found in
>        deepest darkest Africa that walks through
>        five foot high grass shouting: "Where the fuck are we?
>        Where the fuck are we?"
>
>        L & G...................... orangutan  bird
>        (Crowd:) .....
>
>        The orangutan bird is found in the mountains
>        of Africa. It's left ball is made of steel
>        and it's right ball is made of copper. Every
>        time it lands, it goes oran-gu-tan,
>        oran-gu-tan.
>
>        L & G.............. rhinosaurus
>        (Crowd:) .....
>
>        The rhinosaurus is reputed to be the richest
>        animal in the world. It's name is derived
>        from the Latin - rhino meaning money and
>        soreass meaning piles. Hence - piles of
>        money.
>
>        L  &  G   ...................... kerii bird
>        (Crowd:) .....
>
>        The kerrii bird lives north of the Arctic
>        Circle. Every time it comes in to land on the
>        ice it says, "Kerii kerii ker-ist it's cold."
>
>        L & G .................... winky wank bird
>        (Crowd:) .....
>
>        By some strange evolutionary occurance, the
>        nervous system of this bird's eyelids is
>        connected to its foreskin. Every time it
>        winks, it wanks and every time it wanks, it
>        winks.
>

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Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 09:50:24 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(34 lines)


Andrew:I, for one, feel there are serious objections to making multiple copies of books still under copyright -- as the Laws certainly is, and the Chappell may be.Public domain material, of course, is another thing.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 7:59 pm
Subject: Laws and Chappell scanning projects> Related to several previous messages, this weekend I plan to begin
> scanning borrowed copies of Laws' Native American Balladry (Second
> Edition) and Chappell's John Henry: A Folk-Lore Study (Kennikat
> Press 1968 edition) for my own use. I will be scanning these at
> 300 dpi, 2-page spreads into Acrobat PDF files. I would like to
> make these PDF files accessible to those interested via CD or the
> web, unless there are objections about file sharing copyrighted
> material.
>
>
> If anyone's heard vague or direct rumors that either of these
> books are to be restored to print anytime soon, please inform me.
> I don't need to scan them if print editions are forthcoming.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrew
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net
>

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Subject: The Wild West Show - A Bawdy Folksong
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:03:17 -0500
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The version in Martin Page's 'For Gawdsake Don't Take Me' WW2 songs crude
version but still has the title 'The Menagerie'
 Canadian version titled 'The Hamburg Show' is in A Book of Vulgar Verse no
editor , Checkerbooks Toronto 1981 p153.
Neither wuth tunes.
I have sheet music for a similar song called The Royal Wild Beast Show as
performed by The Queen's Minstrels  written by Frank W. Green, music by
Alfred Lee. One of the verses mentions the OOzley bird! It seems to have
more in common with 'Cats on the rooftops, Cats with piles, another Bawdy
Ballad.

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Subject: The Wild West Show - A Bawdy Folksong
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:32:08 -0500
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My own version from the 60s when I played Rugby League ran...
 Chorus..
Oh we're off to see the wild west show
The elephant and the kangaroo-oo-oo
Never mind the weather as long as we're together
We're off to see the wild west showSolo ....And in the first cage, ladies and gentlemen, we have the fantastic
Oomiegoolie birdAudience in chorus...Fantastic, impossible, what the fucking hell's that?Solo...Yes, the fantastic Oomiegoolie bird, so-called because it only has
little wings and short legs, and as it flies over the treetops you can hear
it cry "Ooh, me goolies, ooh me goolies!"Other verses are..
Winky wanky bird
Fuckawee tribe
Constipated elephant
Orang utang
Australian spiral bird.

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Subject: Wandering Minstrel
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:47:01 -0500
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Thanks for suggestions. The fount of all knowledge, Steve Roud, has sent me
a copy of the original 1834 version already and we are on the track of the
1853 version. Who needs the BL?

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Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: "David G. Engle" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 11:46:44 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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At 9:50 AM -0700 9/24/03, edward cray wrote:
>Andrew:
>
>I, for one, feel there are serious objections to making multiple
>copies of books still under copyright -- as the Laws certainly is,
>and the Chappell may be.
>
>Public domain material, of course, is another thing.
>
>EdI fear I must agree with Ed.  Do you want to write the publishers and
see if they will let it go, or charge a nominal fee (e.g. for each CD
distributed)??  They just might go for it; neither is a very recent
item, and they just might be glad to make a few dollars more (pun on
western intended...)David--David G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang         The Traditional Ballad Index:
         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

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Subject: Re: The Wild West Show - A Bawdy Folksong
From: John Mehlberg <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:13:08 -0500
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STEVE GARDHAM
> Canadian version titled 'The Hamburg Show' is in A Book of Vulgar Verse
> no editor , Checkerbooks Toronto 1981 p153.JOHN MEHLBERG
_A Book of Vulgar Verse_ is not a Canadian production but is only a reissue
of the 1927 _Immortalia_ under a different title.STEVE GARDHAM
> I have sheet music for a similar song called The Royal Wild Beast Show as
> performed by The Queen's Minstrels  written by Frank W. Green, music by
> Alfred Lee. One of the verses mentions the OOzley bird! It seems to have
> more in common with 'Cats on the rooftops, Cats with piles, another Bawdy
> Ballad.JOHN MEHLBERG
Ed, the "Royal Beast Show" is definitely worth a look.  Here is a segment of
the song from the Daniel Joseph Kirwan's book _Palace and Hovel : Phases of
London Life_ 1878. (Retrived from
http://www.victorianlondon.org/entertainment/alhambra.htm )<begin paste>
Something of a more grotesque nature, and more broadly funny, which was
cheered to the echo, was a nonsensical song called the "Royal Beast Show,"
that seemed to please the men and women in the audience. This song was sung
by a man in a blood-red scarf; a pea-green body coat, and green glass
goggles. The costume was indicative of nothing under heaven or earth that I
ever saw before, but the song was exactly suited to the comprehension of the
people, as their shouts of laughter testified:                THE ROYAL BEAST SHOW.  Come, stand aside, good people all, and hear vot I've got to say,
  But let the little dears come hup, wot's going for to pay.
  At all the coorts in Europe, we are reckoned quite the go:
  Then pay yer sixpences, and see the Royal Wild Beast Show.  Chorus.
  The cammomiles, the crockodiles, and all that you could wish;
  The mice and rats, and tabby cats, and other kinds of fish;
  A dozen sphinxes hupside down and standing hin a row;
  Hits only sixpence heach to see the Royal Wild Beast Show.  The first one is the Kangaroo, you ought to see him jump;
  The next one is the Ippopotymus, you ought to see ' is hump;
  The third one is the Halligator, and he's such a one to crow,
  He wakes hus hevery morning in the Royal Wild Beast Show.  The Donkey in the corner, with the Tiger hon is harm,
  Comes from Hass-iriya, vere once his father kept a farm;
  That Billy-Goat that's dressed in Pink and valking rayther slow,
  He's very Horn-imental in a Royal Wild Beast show.  The cammomiles, &c.<end paste>

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Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 13:48:26 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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On 9/24/03, edward cray wrote:>Andrew:
>
>I, for one, feel there are serious objections to making multiple copies of books still under copyright -- as the Laws certainly is, and the Chappell may be.
>
>Public domain material, of course, is another thing.I have to sort of second this. I'm not particularly bothered by
people disseminating things which aren't available in any other
form -- but there *is* reason to worry about what is and isn't
copyrighted. One of the reasons I haven't added more material
to the Fresno Reprints series is the fact that most of the
things I can make good scans or are, or may be, still under
copyright.We probably need to start a project to figure out just which
copyrights have expired. Which means, among other things,
knowing the death dates of folk song scholars. Anyone have
any references?
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Wandering Minstrel
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:15:57 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(13 lines)


Steve Gardham wrote:
>
> Thanks for suggestions. The fount of all knowledge, Steve Roud, has sent me
> a copy of the original 1834 version already and we are on the track of the
> 1853 version. Who needs the BL?I could still use BL. If that 1834 version is the only thing that Steve
Roud sent you today, you have no idea how busy he's been today. I've got
over a half a megabyte all in ASCII, and I haven't even begun to digest
it all. [2 attachments are preliminary draft(s?) of a bibliography of
'Street Literature'.]Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 16:50:15 -0400
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My guess is that Dr. Laws died about 12-14 years ago. I knew Dr. Laws -
though not real well - and I know the book dealer who handled the sale
of his folk music and ballad books for the estate. (Dr. Laws had a large
book collection in addition to his areas of specialization.)  I guess I
can find out from him the date of death if in fact that would serve a
purpose.Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 9/24/2003 2:48:26 PM >>>
On 9/24/03, edward cray wrote:>Andrew:
>
>I, for one, feel there are serious objections to making multiple
copies of books still under copyright -- as the Laws certainly is, and
the Chappell may be.
>
>Public domain material, of course, is another thing.I have to sort of second this. I'm not particularly bothered by
people disseminating things which aren't available in any other
form -- but there *is* reason to worry about what is and isn't
copyrighted. One of the reasons I haven't added more material
to the Fresno Reprints series is the fact that most of the
things I can make good scans or are, or may be, still under
copyright.We probably need to start a project to figure out just which
copyrights have expired. Which means, among other things,
knowing the death dates of folk song scholars. Anyone have
any references?
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: request for Jimmy MacBeath BBC memorial broadcast 1972
From: "Thomas H. Stern" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:36:20 -0400
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Subject: Re: The Wild West Show - A Bawdy Folksong
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:37:52 -0700
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Steve:Is there any chance I can get my hands on  a copy of your "Royal Wild Beast Show" sheet music?Or better, can you post it to ballad-l so we all can see it.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 11:03 am
Subject: The Wild West Show - A Bawdy Folksong> The version in Martin Page's 'For Gawdsake Don't Take Me' WW2 songs crude
> version but still has the title 'The Menagerie'
> Canadian version titled 'The Hamburg Show' is in A Book of Vulgar Verse no
> editor , Checkerbooks Toronto 1981 p153.
> Neither wuth tunes.
> I have sheet music for a similar song called The Royal Wild Beast Show as
> performed by The Queen's Minstrels  written by Frank W. Green, music by
> Alfred Lee. One of the verses mentions the OOzley bird! It seems to have
> more in common with 'Cats on the rooftops, Cats with piles, another Bawdy
> Ballad.
>

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Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:44:01 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(40 lines)


Bob:Copyright is more than just life plus 75 years.  A book may not have been renewed for a second 28 years (under the old law) and thus gone into public domain.  The best source for copyright is the Library of Congress Copyright Office.  And the best source for death dates -- aside from obits in scholarly journals -- is the Social Security Administration's index of SSI recipients who have died.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 11:48 am
Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects> On 9/24/03, edward cray wrote:
>
> >Andrew:
> >
> >I, for one, feel there are serious objections to making multiple copies
> of books still under copyright -- as the Laws certainly is, and the
> Chappell may be.
> >
> >Public domain material, of course, is another thing.
>
> I have to sort of second this. I'm not particularly bothered by
> people disseminating things which aren't available in any other
> form -- but there *is* reason to worry about what is and isn't
> copyrighted. One of the reasons I haven't added more material
> to the Fresno Reprints series is the fact that most of the
> things I can make good scans or are, or may be, still under
> copyright.
>
> We probably need to start a project to figure out just which
> copyrights have expired. Which means, among other things,
> knowing the death dates of folk song scholars. Anyone have
> any references?
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."
>

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Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:10:22 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(54 lines)


Lewis Becker wrote:
>
> My guess is that Dr. Laws died about 12-14 years ago. I knew Dr. Laws -
> though not real well - and I know the book dealer who handled the sale
> of his folk music and ballad books for the estate. (Dr. Laws had a large
> book collection in addition to his areas of specialization.)  I guess I
> can find out from him the date of death if in fact that would serve a
> purpose.
>
> Lew Becker
>
> >>> [unmask] 9/24/2003 2:48:26 PM >>>
> On 9/24/03, edward cray wrote:
>
> >Andrew:
> >
> >I, for one, feel there are serious objections to making multiple
> copies of books still under copyright -- as the Laws certainly is, and
> the Chappell may be.
> >
> >Public domain material, of course, is another thing.
>
> I have to sort of second this. I'm not particularly bothered by
> people disseminating things which aren't available in any other
> form -- but there *is* reason to worry about what is and isn't
> copyrighted. One of the reasons I haven't added more material
> to the Fresno Reprints series is the fact that most of the
> things I can make good scans or are, or may be, still under
> copyright.
>
> We probably need to start a project to figure out just which
> copyrights have expired. Which means, among other things,
> knowing the death dates of folk song scholars. Anyone have
> any references?
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."Not always straightforward.1: Law's 'Native American Balladry', copyright 1964 by G. Malcolm Laws,
Jr.2:Law's 'American Balladry from British Broadsides', Copyright , 1957,
By The American Folklore Society'.--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: request for Jimmy MacBeath BBC memorial broadcast 1972
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:51:38 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Thomas H. Stern wrote:
>
> Hi Ballad scholars,
>   I hope someone is able to supply a tape of this broadcast
> for Prof. Glasser.  He is editing his recordings of  Jimmy MacBeath,
> and this will be useful.
>   Howard is not on this list, so please reply directly to
> [unmask]
>   Thanks!
>   Best wishes, Thomas Stern.
> =============================================================
> Subject:     Jimmy MacBeath
>     Date:     Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:16:41 -0400
>    From:     "Howard Glasser" <[unmask]>
>       To:     [unmask]
>      CC:     [unmask]
>
> After Jimmy MacBeath died in January 1972 the BBC broadcast a program
> to
> honour him put together and presented by Arthur Argo  and produced by
> James
> Hunter. My recordings of Jimmy were made in 1963 with Arthur's help. I
> would
> be grateful for more information about the broadcast - or any
> recordings of
> it . Howard Glasser - - -I have one Jimmy MacBeath recording, 78 RPM vinyl, Topic 12T173 (Wild
Rover No More). If you do a commercial recording of any kind please let
me know of availability.I have one Arthur Argo recording, Prestige/International 13048 (A Wee
Thread of Blue). Please, where is, or was Arthur Argo? I know he was a
grandson of Gavin Greig.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:42:26 -0500
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Subject: Copyright
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:47:58 -0700
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Folks:Bruce Olson earlier offered this information:1: Law's 'Native American Balladry', copyright 1964 by G. Malcolm Laws,
Jr.2:Law's 'American Balladry from British Broadsides', Copyright , 1957,
By The American Folklore Society'.Indeed, as Bruce noted, the question of copyright is not always straightforward.Had Dr. Laws died, prior to 1991 and the enactment of the new copyright legislation, copyright on his second edition of _Native American Balladry_ would have expired in 56 years, 28 for the original copyright, and 28 for a presumed renewal.  Thus the book would be in public domain in 2020.  Were there no renewal, it would have fallen into public domain in 1992.Similarly, on Laws' _Broadsides_, a 56-year copyright (original 28 plus renewal) would expire in 2013.  But if he or his heirs failed to renew in a timely manner, that book would have fallen into public domain in 1995.HOWEVER, Lewis Becker tells us that Laws died 12 years ago or so -- just about the time of the enactment of the revised copyright act.  If he renewed his copyrights (28 plus 28), then under the new law, all of his copyrights would now extend to 75 years AFTER his death, say, 2066.And if you happen to be Walt Disney Co., you can apparently get Congress to extend YOUR copyrights forever.Now you begin to understand why a whole field of law known as Intellectual Property has grown into a cutthroat specialty.  (If you got a kids, send her to law school and demand she take upo this field; her income will swaddle you in your old age.)Ed

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Subject: SSI Death Index
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:52:59 -0700
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Folks:This message, quite coincidentally, plopped into my inbox:-----------------------------------------------------------------------           **************************************************
                The US Social Security Death Index                  61 Million Names - 1 CD - 33% off                         Progeny Software
               << http://www.progenysoftware.com >>           **************************************************Dear Subscriber,Progeny Software would like to offer you the most powerful genealogy
research tool ever - the US Social Security Death Index! Over 61 Million
names on a SINGLE CD-ROM at an incredible 33% off!This database is an index to basic information about persons with
Social Security numbers who are deceased AS OF JUNE 1999 and may
contain such information as...- Social Security Number
- Surname
- Given Name
- Date of Birth
- Date of Death
- Last Known Residence
- Date and Place of Issuance
- Location of Last BenefitThe information contained on the US Social Security Death Index (SSDI)
can be used to help you learn more about your ancestors, as well as your
aunts, uncles and cousins.Information from the SSDI can often be used to further genealogical
research by enabling you to locate a death certificate, find an
obituary, discover cemetery records and/or track down probate records.The Social Security number is usually a piece of information genealogists
would love to have. With this number you may be able to order a copy of
an individual's Social Security application or claims file (form SS-5),
which in turn could lead to a discovery of...- Full Name
- Birth Place
- Maiden Name
- Parents? NamesInstructions on how to order a copy of the SS-5 along with a sample letter
of request are both included on Progeny's SSDI CD.The SSDI can provide clues to the person's residence when he or she first
received a Social Security card, or a possible last residence. It can also
provide a clue about where the lump-sum payment was made.Since Progeny's SSDI database is contained on a single CD, you can search
over 61 Million names with more convenience, faster data searches, no
switching CD's during your search and no Internet connection!Order before October 1st, 2003 and receive 33% off!Ordinarily sold for $29.95 USD you can get your copy of Progeny Software's
SSDI CD for only $20.00 USD! Plus $6.00 shipping.To order go to:
http://www.progenysoftware.com/socialsecuritydeathindex.html
Use Promotional Code SD924 when ordering.As one of the most important genealogy research tools available, the SSDI
can help you fill in holes in your family tree by helping you verify birth
and death dates and place of residence. And, with over 61 million names on
a single CD, Progeny Software's SSDI is a perfect starting point for your
family history research!All The Best,Stephanie PrestonProgeny Software Inc.
Genealogy software and research tools
http://www.progenysoftware.com--------------------------------------------------------------------------Of course, you can always go tohttp://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/Ed

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Subject: Re: Laws and Chappell scanning projects
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:23:22 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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On 9/24/03, edward cray wrote:>Bob:
>
>Copyright is more than just life plus 75 years.  A book may not have been renewed for a second 28 years (under the old law) and thus gone into public domain.Hence my statement that we needed death dates among other things.
That's actually key -- if a book is new enough to be covered under
the new law, then we *know* it's hopeless. But the "middle-aged"
books are another matter.>The best source for copyright is the Library of Congress Copyright Office.Of course. But querying books one at a time is a pain. It would
be a lot easier if we could put together a master list. Not
a huge priority, but if someone is bored.... :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: SSI Death Index
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 01:08:52 -0500
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Not to step on Ed's toes but it is worth noting that the RootsWeb site
he mentions at the end of his message is a FREE site. The CD may feature
unique features but, like the old joke about cemeteries, people are
dying to get listed and CD is most likely already out of date.edward cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>This message, quite coincidentally, plopped into my inbox:
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>           **************************************************
>                The US Social Security Death Index
>
>                  61 Million Names - 1 CD - 33% off
>
>                         Progeny Software
>               << http://www.progenysoftware.com >>
>
>           **************************************************
>
>
>Dear Subscriber,
>
>Progeny Software would like to offer you the most powerful genealogy
>research tool ever - the US Social Security Death Index! Over 61 Million
>names on a SINGLE CD-ROM at an incredible 33% off!
>
>This database is an index to basic information about persons with
>Social Security numbers who are deceased AS OF JUNE 1999 and may
>contain such information as...
>
>- Social Security Number
>- Surname
>- Given Name
>- Date of Birth
>- Date of Death
>- Last Known Residence
>- Date and Place of Issuance
>- Location of Last Benefit
>
>The information contained on the US Social Security Death Index (SSDI)
>can be used to help you learn more about your ancestors, as well as your
>aunts, uncles and cousins.
>
>Information from the SSDI can often be used to further genealogical
>research by enabling you to locate a death certificate, find an
>obituary, discover cemetery records and/or track down probate records.
>
>The Social Security number is usually a piece of information genealogists
>would love to have. With this number you may be able to order a copy of
>an individual's Social Security application or claims file (form SS-5),
>which in turn could lead to a discovery of...
>
>- Full Name
>- Birth Place
>- Maiden Name
>- Parents? Names
>
>Instructions on how to order a copy of the SS-5 along with a sample letter
>of request are both included on Progeny's SSDI CD.
>
>The SSDI can provide clues to the person's residence when he or she first
>received a Social Security card, or a possible last residence. It can also
>provide a clue about where the lump-sum payment was made.
>
>Since Progeny's SSDI database is contained on a single CD, you can search
>over 61 Million names with more convenience, faster data searches, no
>switching CD's during your search and no Internet connection!
>
>Order before October 1st, 2003 and receive 33% off!
>
>Ordinarily sold for $29.95 USD you can get your copy of Progeny Software's
>SSDI CD for only $20.00 USD! Plus $6.00 shipping.
>
>To order go to:
>http://www.progenysoftware.com/socialsecuritydeathindex.html
>Use Promotional Code SD924 when ordering.
>
>As one of the most important genealogy research tools available, the SSDI
>can help you fill in holes in your family tree by helping you verify birth
>and death dates and place of residence. And, with over 61 million names on
>a single CD, Progeny Software's SSDI is a perfect starting point for your
>family history research!
>
>All The Best,
>
>Stephanie Preston
>
>Progeny Software Inc.
>Genealogy software and research tools
>http://www.progenysoftware.com
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Of course, you can always go to
>
>http://ssdi.genealogy.rootsweb.com/
>
>Ed
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: request for Jimmy MacBeath BBC memorial broadcast 1972
From: Ewan McVicar <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 04:11:00 -0400
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Just now I have to go tell stories about Mary Queen of Scots, round the
corner in the palace where she was born.
I'll post later with detailed info on the Portrait album, and double album
with Davie Stewart, both recently issued by Rounder from Alan Lomax's 1950s
recordings of them both.
I most privileged to have a hand in them - the song notes for the Portrait
album, and the putting together of the double one, called Two gentlemen Of
The Road.As for Arthur, he died tragically and far too young in the 1980s. Scottish
song authority Sheila Douglas has for some time been working on a biography
of him.EwanEwan McVicar,
84 High Street
Linlithgow,
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

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Subject: Re: request for Jimmy MacBeath BBC memorial broadcast 1972
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:01:19 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Ewan McVicar wrote:
>
> Just now I have to go tell stories about Mary Queen of Scots, round the
> corner in the palace where she was born.
> I'll post later with detailed info on the Portrait album, and double album
> with Davie Stewart, both recently issued by Rounder from Alan Lomax's 1950s
> recordings of them both.
> I most privileged to have a hand in them - the song notes for the Portrait
> album, and the putting together of the double one, called Two gentlemen Of
> The Road.
>
> As for Arthur, he died tragically and far too young in the 1980s. Scottish
> song authority Sheila Douglas has for some time been working on a biography
> of him.
>
> Ewan
>
> Ewan McVicar,
> 84 High Street
> Linlithgow,
> West Lothian
> Scotland
> EH49 7AQ
>
> tel 01506 847935Thanks, that's what I wanted to know. Ewan, you've been too absent for a
while. Are you still a part time[?] graduate student at SSS? It was
folklore of chldren (singing games?] that I seem to remember was your
area of study.Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re: request for Jimmy MacBeath BBC memorial broadcast 1972
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:20:02 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Thomas H. Stern wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ballad scholars,
> >   I hope someone is able to supply a tape of this broadcast
> > for Prof. Glasser.  He is editing his recordings of  Jimmy MacBeath,
> > and this will be useful.
> >   Howard is not on this list, so please reply directly to
> > [unmask]
> >   Thanks!
> >   Best wishes, Thomas Stern.
> > =============================================================
> > Subject:     Jimmy MacBeath
> >     Date:     Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:16:41 -0400
> >    From:     "Howard Glasser" <[unmask]>
> >       To:     [unmask]
> >      CC:     [unmask]
> >
> > After Jimmy MacBeath died in January 1972 the BBC broadcast a program
> > to
> > honour him put together and presented by Arthur Argo  and produced by
> > James
> > Hunter. My recordings of Jimmy were made in 1963 with Arthur's help. I
> > would
> > be grateful for more information about the broadcast - or any
> > recordings of
> > it . Howard Glasser - - -
>
> I have one Jimmy MacBeath recording, 78 RPM vinyl, Topic 12T173 (Wild
> Rover No More). If you do a commercial recording of any kind please let
> me know of availability.
>
> I have one Arthur Argo recording, Prestige/International 13048 (A Wee
> Thread of Blue). Please, where is, or was Arthur Argo? I know he was a
> grandson of Gavin Greig.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> subject index) </a>Sorry, both recordingss noted above are 33 1/3 RPM.Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re: request for Jimmy MacBeath BBC memorial broadcast 1972
From: Ewan McVicar <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:06:48 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Hi Bruce
[and all]I've been reading messages on the Ballad List all the way, but seldom with
anything to contribute.I eventually abandoned my part-time quest for a PhD in Scottish children's
song at the School of Scottish Studies, and settled for an MSc. I had
become too busy with creative writing and storytelling projects. This
culminated in me creating a Festival of Scottish-Russian Culture in the
Urals city of Perm June last year.A couple of years ago I got roped in to help with the Lomax Archive series
of CDs for Rounder. I'll detail these as a separate message to the list.RegardsEwanEwan McVicar,
84 High Street
Linlithgow,
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

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Subject: Jimmy MacBeath and others
From: Ewan McVicar <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:06:50 -0400
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Re Jimmy MacBeath programme.BBC Radio Scotland might be able to assist / advise re this. Arthur Argo
worked for them at that timeI said I'd give details re relevant Lomax Archive CD's I've been involved
in. I think it's OK to post this here, since I don't get any sales
percentage.Two feature Jimmy MacBeath.ROUNDER
82161-1834-2, Jimmy MacBeath, Tramps & Hawkers. 26 tracks, song and
interview, mostly first time released, recorded 1951 and 1957.ROUNDER
82161-1793-2,Two Gentlemen of the Road, Jimmy MacBeath & Davey Stewart,
double album, song and interview, 33 tracks, mostly first time released,
recorded 1951 and 1957.Also relevant to this list areROUNDER
82161-1833-2, Davie Stewart, Go On, Sing Another Song, song and interview,
24 tracks, nearly all first time released, recorded 1957.ROUNDER
82161-1835-2, John Strachan, Songs From Aberdeenshire, song and interview,
24 tracks, half first time released, 1951.Due for release sometime soon enough on Rounder.
An album of children's song, recorded from children in Edinburgh, South
Uist, Aberdeen, plus Hamish Henderson and Ewan MacColl, 1951.And the best of all, the fabled 1951 People's Festival Ceilidh, with Flora
MacNeil, PM John Burgess, Jimmy MacBeath, John Strachan, Jessie Murray,
Blanche Wood, intros and a couple of songs by Hamish Henderson. This latter
CD will be some months yet, maybe a year or more.EwanEwan McVicar,
84 High Street
Linlithgow,
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

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Subject: More on Copyright
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 09:21:48 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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Folks:I am posting this for David Kleiman who for reasons unclear to me cannot yet post to ballad-l.Ed
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From     [unmask]
Sent    Wednesday, September 24, 2003 8:14 pm
To      [unmask]
Cc
Bcc
Subject         All this Copyright stuffEd,Being directly involved in republication issues, I had to jump into this but
I am still unable to respond directly to the list so:1. The Laws works are definately still IN copyright (just as are the Bronson
books from 1958-1972).  I checked into them as part of our republication
program.2. The best (but not definative) guideline that our intellectual property
rights attorneys have given us is that "anything" originally published prior
to 1923 is "safe".  Anything after that ... "be careful"...and check item by
item.3. The suggestion that these works should be scanned and PDF'ed is
understandable but strikes very close to the same issues as audio file-
swapping, especially since the particular works in question are still in
copyright.That not withstanding, I have already scanned (and actually OCR'd) quite a
bit of the "older" material in my collection thereby making it text
searchable.  However, these copies DO NOT ever leave my posession (or my
computer).  Take look back over our up-coming publication schedule and you'll
see a large amount of 19th-cent. material.  The other thing that we watch out
for is not reproducing older materials from newer (post 1923) reissues.  We
ALWAYS work from original publications rather than facimiles.I hope this helps a bit.Best,
David Kleiman

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Jane Keefer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 10:02:00 -0700
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If it's of use to anyone, I have compiled a database of all the book
& Journal citations in both Laws volumes.   I could export it in text
format or perhaps post it, arranged by citation and Laws #, on the
web.Jane Keefer----- Original Message -----
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 5:47 PM
Subject: Copyright> Folks:
>
> Bruce Olson earlier offered this information:
>
> 1: Law's 'Native American Balladry', copyright 1964 by G. Malcolm
Laws,
> Jr.
>
> 2:Law's 'American Balladry from British Broadsides', Copyright ,
1957,
> By The American Folklore Society'.
>
>
> Indeed, as Bruce noted, the question of copyright is not always
straightforward.
>
> Had Dr. Laws died, prior to 1991 and the enactment of the new
copyright legislation, copyright on his second edition of _Native
American Balladry_ would have expired in 56 years, 28 for the
original copyright, and 28 for a presumed renewal.  Thus the book
would be in public domain in 2020.  Were there no renewal, it would
have fallen into public domain in 1992.
>
> Similarly, on Laws' _Broadsides_, a 56-year copyright (original 28
plus renewal) would expire in 2013.  But if he or his heirs failed to
renew in a timely manner, that book would have fallen into public
domain in 1995.
>
> HOWEVER, Lewis Becker tells us that Laws died 12 years ago or so --
just about the time of the enactment of the revised copyright act.
If he renewed his copyrights (28 plus 28), then under the new law,
all of his copyrights would now extend to 75 years AFTER his death,
say, 2066.
>
> And if you happen to be Walt Disney Co., you can apparently get
Congress to extend YOUR copyrights forever.
>
> Now you begin to understand why a whole field of law known as
Intellectual Property has grown into a cutthroat specialty.  (If you
got a kids, send her to law school and demand she take upo this
field; her income will swaddle you in your old age.)
>
> Ed

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Subject: Re: Jimmy MacBeath and others
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:53:29 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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And, needless to say, they're all carried by CAMSCO.
dick greenhausEwan McVicar wrote:>Re Jimmy MacBeath programme.
>
>BBC Radio Scotland might be able to assist / advise re this. Arthur Argo
>worked for them at that time
>
>I said I'd give details re relevant Lomax Archive CD's I've been involved
>in. I think it's OK to post this here, since I don't get any sales
>percentage.
>
>Two feature Jimmy MacBeath.
>
>ROUNDER
>82161-1834-2, Jimmy MacBeath, Tramps & Hawkers. 26 tracks, song and
>interview, mostly first time released, recorded 1951 and 1957.
>
>ROUNDER
>82161-1793-2,Two Gentlemen of the Road, Jimmy MacBeath & Davey Stewart,
>double album, song and interview, 33 tracks, mostly first time released,
>recorded 1951 and 1957.
>
>Also relevant to this list are
>
>ROUNDER
>82161-1833-2, Davie Stewart, Go On, Sing Another Song, song and interview,
>24 tracks, nearly all first time released, recorded 1957.
>
>ROUNDER
>82161-1835-2, John Strachan, Songs From Aberdeenshire, song and interview,
>24 tracks, half first time released, 1951.
>
>Due for release sometime soon enough on Rounder.
>An album of children's song, recorded from children in Edinburgh, South
>Uist, Aberdeen, plus Hamish Henderson and Ewan MacColl, 1951.
>
>And the best of all, the fabled 1951 People's Festival Ceilidh, with Flora
>MacNeil, PM John Burgess, Jimmy MacBeath, John Strachan, Jessie Murray,
>Blanche Wood, intros and a couple of songs by Hamish Henderson. This latter
>CD will be some months yet, maybe a year or more.
>
>Ewan
>
>
>Ewan McVicar,
>84 High Street
>Linlithgow,
>West Lothian
>Scotland
>EH49 7AQ
>
>tel 01506 847935
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:01:30 -0500
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That sounds like a great, handy and concise way to have the info. I'd love
to see it, either on the web or in a file.Thanks much,
Paul GaronAt 10:02 AM 9/25/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>If it's of use to anyone, I have compiled a database of all the book
>& Journal citations in both Laws volumes.   I could export it in text
>format or perhaps post it, arranged by citation and Laws #, on the
>web.
>
>Jane Keefer
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 5:47 PM
>Subject: Copyright
>
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > Bruce Olson earlier offered this information:
> >
> > 1: Law's 'Native American Balladry', copyright 1964 by G. Malcolm
>Laws,
> > Jr.
> >
> > 2:Law's 'American Balladry from British Broadsides', Copyright ,
>1957,
> > By The American Folklore Society'.
> >
> >
> > Indeed, as Bruce noted, the question of copyright is not always
>straightforward.
> >
> > Had Dr. Laws died, prior to 1991 and the enactment of the new
>copyright legislation, copyright on his second edition of _Native
>American Balladry_ would have expired in 56 years, 28 for the
>original copyright, and 28 for a presumed renewal.  Thus the book
>would be in public domain in 2020.  Were there no renewal, it would
>have fallen into public domain in 1992.
> >
> > Similarly, on Laws' _Broadsides_, a 56-year copyright (original 28
>plus renewal) would expire in 2013.  But if he or his heirs failed to
>renew in a timely manner, that book would have fallen into public
>domain in 1995.
> >
> > HOWEVER, Lewis Becker tells us that Laws died 12 years ago or so --
>just about the time of the enactment of the revised copyright act.
>If he renewed his copyrights (28 plus 28), then under the new law,
>all of his copyrights would now extend to 75 years AFTER his death,
>say, 2066.
> >
> > And if you happen to be Walt Disney Co., you can apparently get
>Congress to extend YOUR copyrights forever.
> >
> > Now you begin to understand why a whole field of law known as
>Intellectual Property has grown into a cutthroat specialty.  (If you
>got a kids, send her to law school and demand she take upo this
>field; her income will swaddle you in your old age.)
> >
> > EdPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: More on Copyright
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 16:51:57 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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On 9/25/03, edward cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>I am posting this for David Kleiman who for reasons unclear to me cannot yet post to ballad-l.This isn't really related to this thread, but I'd like Ed Cray's
opinion on this, since he's one of the few people around who
actually lives on BOTH sides of the fence (a published author
but also a guy who would like to see more out-of-print books):Ed, what do YOU think the copyright laws "should" be? Personally,
I would like to eliminate all copyright on composed songs :-),
but I see a place for copyright on written works. Still, it's
reasonable to wonder how long it should last.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:24:04 -0400
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Inasmuch as Laws' references are often unavailable, and the logic of his
categorizations is not always clear (at least to me), Susan Friedman and
I have included examples of all the laws numbered ballads in the Digital
Tradition. One can search by Laws number, and see at least one set of
lyrics.dick greenhausPaul Garon wrote:> That sounds like a great, handy and concise way to have the info. I'd
> love
> to see it, either on the web or in a file.
>
> Thanks much,
> Paul Garon
>
> At 10:02 AM 9/25/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>
>> If it's of use to anyone, I have compiled a database of all the book
>> & Journal citations in both Laws volumes.   I could export it in text
>> format or perhaps post it, arranged by citation and Laws #, on the
>> web.
>>
>> Jane Keefer
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>> To: <[unmask]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 5:47 PM
>> Subject: Copyright
>>
>>
>> > Folks:
>> >
>> > Bruce Olson earlier offered this information:
>> >
>> > 1: Law's 'Native American Balladry', copyright 1964 by G. Malcolm
>> Laws,
>> > Jr.
>> >
>> > 2:Law's 'American Balladry from British Broadsides', Copyright ,
>> 1957,
>> > By The American Folklore Society'.
>> >
>> >
>> > Indeed, as Bruce noted, the question of copyright is not always
>> straightforward.
>> >
>> > Had Dr. Laws died, prior to 1991 and the enactment of the new
>> copyright legislation, copyright on his second edition of _Native
>> American Balladry_ would have expired in 56 years, 28 for the
>> original copyright, and 28 for a presumed renewal.  Thus the book
>> would be in public domain in 2020.  Were there no renewal, it would
>> have fallen into public domain in 1992.
>> >
>> > Similarly, on Laws' _Broadsides_, a 56-year copyright (original 28
>> plus renewal) would expire in 2013.  But if he or his heirs failed to
>> renew in a timely manner, that book would have fallen into public
>> domain in 1995.
>> >
>> > HOWEVER, Lewis Becker tells us that Laws died 12 years ago or so --
>> just about the time of the enactment of the revised copyright act.
>> If he renewed his copyrights (28 plus 28), then under the new law,
>> all of his copyrights would now extend to 75 years AFTER his death,
>> say, 2066.
>> >
>> > And if you happen to be Walt Disney Co., you can apparently get
>> Congress to extend YOUR copyrights forever.
>> >
>> > Now you begin to understand why a whole field of law known as
>> Intellectual Property has grown into a cutthroat specialty.  (If you
>> got a kids, send her to law school and demand she take upo this
>> field; her income will swaddle you in your old age.)
>> >
>> > Ed
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: More on Copyright
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Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 19:46:20 EDT
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Subject: Copyright
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 20:38:05 -0500
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>>From     [unmask]
>Sent    Wednesday, September 24, 2003 8:14 pm
>To      [unmask]
>>1. The Laws works are definately still IN copyright (just as are
the Bronson books from 1958-1972).  I checked into them as part of
our republication program.
>3. The suggestion that these works should be scanned and PDF'ed is
>understandable but strikes very close to the same issues as audio
>file-swapping, especially since the particular works in question
>are still in copyright.Technically, I believe it's illegal to make a xerox copy of a
book...but I'm not aware of a single library that doesn't have at
least one xerox machine a few feet away from the shelves...nor am
I aware of anyone going to jail for xeroxing a book, making
copies, and distributing copies to their friends. Going by the
letter of the law, I suppose all of this is a terrible crime
against copyright holders. Should we raise an objection,
therefore, to the use of xerox machines in libraries?Your arguments puzzle me. It is perfectly free and legal for
anyone in the USA to walk into a library that has a copy of Laws
on the shelf and make a xerox copy of that...no objections...and
it's OK to make a copy of that to send to your colleague in
Nebraska who doesn't have the access you do, or the $150 to obtain
an original copy...still not many objections...but it is a
viscious crime when this same activity is done with the aid of an
Epson scanner. Makes sense to me. It also makes a lot of sense
that important works of scholarship should be allowed to remain
out of print ad infinitum, accessible only to a privileged few,
stowed away unseen in a few college libraries and rare
bookdealers' shelves. Indeed, that is a far superior alternative
to scanning the books as permanent electronic files, keeping them
alive and accessible, sharing them freely with friends and
students (as you would a xerox copy), stimulating further research
and study. Who cares about free information and research when
there are copyright laws (and rare bookdealers) to uphold at all
costs?I've written, published, and copyrighted several things in recent
years. I would object if someone stole my words and claimed them
for their own in print. I would object if someone copied my
writings and sold them for a fee. I would be thrilled if someone
scanned or copied them as an aid to their own further study of
relative subjects, and passed on scans to other interested
parties. I don't want to assume for the late Dr. Laws, but I would
like to think that he would approve of the scanning and free
distribution of his book moreso than the selling of original
copies for $150. The former activity encourages new folk research;
the latter strongly discourages it.---Andrew________________________________________________________________
Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:39:20 -0500
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Subject: Re: More on Copyright
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:25:50 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]><<None of this answers any questions about the appropriateness or morality
of
this, especially as far as traditional song is concerned, and I don't intend
to
get mired. The most original thinking on the subject that I know of is the
PhD thesis and subsequent writing of a young Smithsonian research-associate,
Anthony McCann, many of whose ideas and a number of links is at <A
HREF="www.beyongthecommons.com">
www.beyongthecommons.com</A>. It's dense but rewarding.>>I believe that's actually http://www.beyondthecommons.com/ .Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 01:37:17 -0500
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Hi folks:There's a practice in the music industry which, for once, makes sense:
compulsory licensing. If I write a song, once it has been recorded (by me or
someone else), it's fair game for anyone to record; I can't stop them. They
will owe me royalties, of course, and if we can't negotiate a price, then
it's the "statutory rate", which I believe is currently just under 8 cents
per copy sold. But as long as they pay me, they can record it.How might this apply to books? We could have a law, for example, that once a
book had been out of print for X years, anyone who wished to do so could
reproduce it to their heart's content, either by xeroxing, scanning, or
whatever, provided they paid a statutory royalty to the publisher and
author. They also could republish it, again provided they paid a statutory
royalty -- and the royalty could be legislated to be reasonable. So, for
example, if I wanted to put out an edition of Laws, I might pay $3.00 to the
publisher and $3.00 to Dr. Laws (well, his estate) per copy, and sell it to
my heart's content. If I wanted to photocopy the whole thing for my personal
use, same rate. (Plus xerox costs, of course.) I don't know what royalties
Dr. Laws got for his work, or how much profit the publisher made, but I'd
guess I'm around the right order of magnitude. In any case, it's a
reasonable amount -- not so high that a republisher or xeroxer would find it
onerous, but enough to give the author and publisher a few bucks for their
troubles, because they've got to eat too.The only thing you couldn't do is post the whole thing on a website for
free. And I think that's fair within a limited period of copyright (not ad
infinitum, as Disney and their allies would have it). Again, writers gotta
eat (I speak from experience). So I don't begrudge it.For that matter, you could apply the same idea to out of print records. It's
been suggested, in fact, which is where I picked up the idea.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Iain Grant died
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:32:30 +0100
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Iain Grant, the Edinburgh multiple-mouth-organ player, died early
this week (I know at least one US reader of this list met him).
The funeral is Wednesday October 1st, Warriston Crematorium, 3pm.Iain was an instrumentalist and I never heard him sing in all the
several years I played with him nearly every week, but apparently
he had an unfeasibly filthy version of "The Bonny Earl of Moray".
I don't know if this was his own creation - anybody know of such
a song from elsewhere, or has it died with him?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Copyright
From: Andrew Brown <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:04:56 -0500
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>Date:    Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:39:20 -0500
>From:    Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
>Don't want to wax too philosophically on copy write violations as
it's not my area of the law but it is not proper to copy an entire
book at the local library and many [Tulane is a good example] have
warnings posted on or near their equipment.I've not seen such a warning, but it is a fairly specious
one...not "proper"? So it is OK to copy the first 100 pages of
Bronson Vol. 1 but not the whole book? If you're copying the book
to study Bronson, what purpose does copying an small portion
serve? And who determines how many pages are "proper"?>The same issues have made considerable news lately when applied to
>downloading songs off the internet. On the one hand technology
allows us to duplicate at will and is not likely to go away
[whatever the RIAA might like]; on the other if the creator of a
work is not compensated how many folks will continue to research,
write record etc. Not every one has the luxury or working pro bono.The RIAA controversy largely centers around contemporary music.
People are buying new CDs by new artists and simply uploading them
on their personal web sites. That certainly is a flagrant
violation of copyright in the real sense of the words.I don't think the RIAA controversy has much to do with the guy who
is uploading MP3's of his 78 record collection of small, obsolete
labels. A few might even champion such efforts as preservationism.
That is a much better analogy, as I see it, to scanning rare and
out-of-print books than downloading songs that were released on CD
last month.Are there similar controversies and objections to print-on-demand
books? I did a search for Chappell and Bronson at bookfinder.com.
Among the items I found:Alibris Books
Chappell, John Henry, print on demand, $46.45
Bronson Vol. 1, print on demand, $155.95
Bronson Vol. 2, print on demand, $181.35AstroLogos Books
Bronson Vol. 2, print to order, $218.00Is it free and legal to xerox these books and sell them in such a
manner with no regard to copyright? If not, if it is a "violation
of copyright," why are they allowed to do it? If it's OK, how
exactly is this different from scanning the very same books?---Andrew________________________________________________________________
Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 07:42:14 -0500
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On 9/26/03, Paul Stamler wrote:>Hi folks:
>
>There's a practice in the music industry which, for once, makes sense:
>compulsory licensing. If I write a song, once it has been recorded (by me or
>someone else), it's fair game for anyone to record; I can't stop them. They
>will owe me royalties, of course, and if we can't negotiate a price, then
>it's the "statutory rate", which I believe is currently just under 8 cents
>per copy sold. But as long as they pay me, they can record it.
>
>How might this apply to books? We could have a law, for example, that once a
>book had been out of print for X years, anyone who wished to do so could
>reproduce it to their heart's content, either by xeroxing, scanning, or
>whatever, provided they paid a statutory royalty to the publisher and
>author. They also could republish it, again provided they paid a statutory
>royalty -- and the royalty could be legislated to be reasonable. So, for
>example, if I wanted to put out an edition of Laws, I might pay $3.00 to the
>publisher and $3.00 to Dr. Laws (well, his estate) per copy, and sell it to
>my heart's content. If I wanted to photocopy the whole thing for my personal
>use, same rate. (Plus xerox costs, of course.) I don't know what royalties
>Dr. Laws got for his work, or how much profit the publisher made, but I'd
>guess I'm around the right order of magnitude. In any case, it's a
>reasonable amount -- not so high that a republisher or xeroxer would find it
>onerous, but enough to give the author and publisher a few bucks for their
>troubles, because they've got to eat too.
>
>The only thing you couldn't do is post the whole thing on a website for
>free. And I think that's fair within a limited period of copyright (not ad
>infinitum, as Disney and their allies would have it). Again, writers gotta
>eat (I speak from experience). So I don't begrudge it.
>
>For that matter, you could apply the same idea to out of print records. It's
>been suggested, in fact, which is where I picked up the idea.I don't have any legal voice, of course -- but this sounds brilliant
to me. Which probably means that there is no hope of it happening. :-(One additional detail that perhaps applies to books rather and not
to music: We probably need a per-page rate of some sort. Taking
Laws as an example, his books really fall into two parts: The
exposition, which is a course in ballad history, and the appendices,
which include his song lists. The two are useful separately --
in particular, the appendices are useful without the text.Native American Balladry is 298 pages. That argues for a rate of
1 cent per word to the author and to the publisher.Now we just need to come up with a way for people to pay at the
photocopier. It's not inherently impossible; raise the fee at
the copier by two cents, have people sign out what they copy,
and build a mechanism for distributing the money. Since it
affects mostly academic publishers (what sort of wacko would
photocopy every page of a romance novel?), it wouldn't take
*that* big a consortium.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: [unmask]
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Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:50:39 EDT
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Subject: Re: More on Copyright
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Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:52:49 EDT
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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:19:19 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<Native American Balladry is 298 pages. That argues for a rate of
1 cent per word to the author and to the publisher.>>That seems a little, er, steep. If you assume 250 words per page, that comes
out to $745.00, and at that point even Alibris starts to look good. I think
you meant 1 cent per page? :-)}}}Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:49:15 -0500
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On 9/26/03, [unmask] wrote:>In a message dated 9/26/2003 1:55:41 PM GMT Daylight Time, [unmask] writes:
>
>>Now we just need to come up with a way for people to pay at the
>>photocopier. It's not inherently impossible; raise the fee at
>>the copier by two cents, have people sign out what they copy,
>>and build a mechanism for distributing the money.
>>
>
>
>It occurs to me that this could be effected by bar-coding isbnsAnd effectively all libraries in the U. S. already bar code their
books. Many now have automatic check-outs.Of course, you could check out the book and photocopy it at home.
But if you can check out the book, you can extract data by other
means. :-)>- and, since all the bigger photocopiers entail digitising the image, a word count - or a close approximation - is entirely plausible. Hence: sign in by reading the bar code, copy, read the bar code to sign out and the clock ticks on.Indeed. And this could be done even in the reference section of public
libraries: Have a divider divider between Reference and the other
sections, and make people use the copier there.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:12:40 -0500
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On 9/26/03, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>
><<Native American Balladry is 298 pages. That argues for a rate of
>1 cent per word to the author and to the publisher.>>
>
>That seems a little, er, steep. If you assume 250 words per page, that comes
>out to $745.00, and at that point even Alibris starts to look good. I think
>you meant 1 cent per page? :-)}}}Duh. Of course. :-)And my guess, based on the type size, page size, etc. is that
Laws is about 600 words/page, FWIW.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:16:20 -0400
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On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 11:12:40AM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> On 9/26/03, Paul Stamler wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
> >
> ><<Native American Balladry is 298 pages. That argues for a rate of
> >1 cent per word to the author and to the publisher.>>
> >
> >That seems a little, er, steep. If you assume 250 words per page, that comes
> >out to $745.00, and at that point even Alibris starts to look good. I think
> >you meant 1 cent per page? :-)}}}
>
> Duh. Of course. :-)
>
> And my guess, based on the type size, page size, etc. is that
> Laws is about 600 words/page, FWIW.        Since font size varies from book to book, as does the size of
the pages, and the real meat is in the words, not the physical pages,
perhaps an average price per word should be the basis, not a price per
page.  (Perhaps with a published guidebook for the average words/page of
each book in the library.)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 12:20:35 -0500
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Some comments:Andrew Brown wrote:>>I've not seen such a warning, but it is a fairly specious
>>one...not "proper"? So it is OK to copy the first 100 pages of
>>Bronson Vol. 1 but not the whole book? If you're copying the book
>>to study Bronson, what purpose does copying an small portion
>>serve? And who determines how many pages are "proper"?
>>
Sorry, my poor choice of words. If memory serves the notice at Tulane
says "illegal." As for the doctrine of "fair use" 'tis a fairly
complicated question. The first 100 pages of a 200 page book probably is
a violation while the first 100 of a 2000 page tome is likely not. As
for "study" purposes: if you want to study the entire volume you buy or
borrow, if you need to refer to a few notes / pages you copy.Believe me, I'm not taking a position. Just commenting on the situation
as I understand the law. It's a really big topic for genealogists as
well, just how much is "fair use" and how much is theft.>The RIAA controversy largely centers around contemporary music.
>People are buying new CDs by new artists and simply uploading them
>on their personal web sites. That certainly is a flagrant
>violation of copyright in the real sense of the words.
>
>I don't think the RIAA controversy has much to do with the guy who
>is uploading MP3's of his 78 record collection of small, obsolete
>labels. A few might even champion such efforts as preservationism.
>That is a much better analogy, as I see it, to scanning rare and
>out-of-print books than downloading songs that were released on CD
>last month.
>On this point I disagree. The purpose of the RIAA subpoenas / law suits
may be to squeeze a few more bucks from the fans of Metallica or Britney
Spears but the manner in which they have pursued the matter clearly
encompasses all forms of music. The initial wave of subpoenas are
directed not at down loaders but on up loaders [hope I have the
terminology correct] and are based on the amount of material passing
through ones ISP without regard to what the file may be. I think it was
in the area of 2000 plus as the baseline and there is no way to know
what the material consists of when the subpoenas are issued.While it's not quite 78's there have been some interesting comments
concerning the law suits made by Allan Klein {Especially as it effects
his Cameo / Parkway label which has been out of business since the early
70s. No material from that body has been reissued on CD and for those of
us who loved "96 Tears" or "South Street" or "The Twist" the hunt for
the original 45s inevitably leads to on line down loads or bootlegs.]
Klein is a strong supporter of the RIAA and endorses their campaign.
[Worth pointing out that moneys collected as a result of these suits
does NOT go to artists but only to the record companies who employ the
RIAA to the tune of $44 million a year.]>Are there similar controversies and objections to print-on-demand
>books? I did a search for Chappell and Bronson at bookfinder.com.
>Among the items I found:
>
>Alibris Books
>Chappell, John Henry, print on demand, $46.45
>Bronson Vol. 1, print on demand, $155.95
>Bronson Vol. 2, print on demand, $181.35
>
>AstroLogos Books
>Bronson Vol. 2, print to order, $218.00
>
>Is it free and legal to xerox these books and sell them in such a
>manner with no regard to copyright? If not, if it is a "violation
>of copyright," why are they allowed to do it? If it's OK, how
>exactly is this different from scanning the very same books?
>As I mentioned earlier this is a hot topic in genealogy circles. While I
can't speak to the specific books you cite I do know that [in the
genealogy field] firms that engage in this activity pay a royalty to the
publisher.

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:16:24 -0700
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I always assumed that that warning libraries posted was so they would be off
the hook in the very unlikely case that someone was sued for infringing
copyright on their machine.  i.e., but they said not to do it...
Norm Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Brown" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 5:04 AM
Subject: Copyright> >Date:    Thu, 25 Sep 2003 23:39:20 -0500
> >From:    Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
> >Don't want to wax too philosophically on copy write violations as
> it's not my area of the law but it is not proper to copy an entire
> book at the local library and many [Tulane is a good example] have
> warnings posted on or near their equipment.
>
>
> I've not seen such a warning, but it is a fairly specious
> one...not "proper"? So it is OK to copy the first 100 pages of
> Bronson Vol. 1 but not the whole book? If you're copying the book
> to study Bronson, what purpose does copying an small portion
> serve? And who determines how many pages are "proper"?
>
>
> >The same issues have made considerable news lately when applied to
> >downloading songs off the internet. On the one hand technology
> allows us to duplicate at will and is not likely to go away
> [whatever the RIAA might like]; on the other if the creator of a
> work is not compensated how many folks will continue to research,
> write record etc. Not every one has the luxury or working pro bono.
>
>
> The RIAA controversy largely centers around contemporary music.
> People are buying new CDs by new artists and simply uploading them
> on their personal web sites. That certainly is a flagrant
> violation of copyright in the real sense of the words.
>
> I don't think the RIAA controversy has much to do with the guy who
> is uploading MP3's of his 78 record collection of small, obsolete
> labels. A few might even champion such efforts as preservationism.
> That is a much better analogy, as I see it, to scanning rare and
> out-of-print books than downloading songs that were released on CD
> last month.
>
> Are there similar controversies and objections to print-on-demand
> books? I did a search for Chappell and Bronson at bookfinder.com.
> Among the items I found:
>
> Alibris Books
> Chappell, John Henry, print on demand, $46.45
> Bronson Vol. 1, print on demand, $155.95
> Bronson Vol. 2, print on demand, $181.35
>
> AstroLogos Books
> Bronson Vol. 2, print to order, $218.00
>
> Is it free and legal to xerox these books and sell them in such a
> manner with no regard to copyright? If not, if it is a "violation
> of copyright," why are they allowed to do it? If it's OK, how
> exactly is this different from scanning the very same books?
>
> ---Andrew
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sent via the EV1 webmail system at mail.ev1.net
>

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Subject: Christofo Columbo
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:33:41 -0400
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FYI, though I expect that some of you are already aware of this.We all know "Christofo Columbo" as a bawdy ballad, but in the Robert
W. Gordon papers at the University of Oregon there is a "clean"
version, "Written and Composed by Francis J. Bryant," "Copyright,
1893, by M. Witmark and Sons.  Entered at Stationers' Hall, London."
"Words and music of this song will be sent to any address, postpaid,
on receipt of forty cents, or this and any other two songs for One
Dollar, by William W. Delaney, 117 Park Row, New York.  One cent
postage stamps taken same as cash."If you wonder how the chorus could be "clean," here it is:He knew the earth was round, ho! that land it could be found, ho!
The geographic, hard and hoary navigator, gyratory Christofo Columbo.I have a hard time making that last line scan to the tune in my head.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 15:46:39 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

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On 9/26/03, DoN. Nichols wrote:>On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 11:12:40AM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
>> On 9/26/03, Paul Stamler wrote:
>>
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>> >
>> ><<Native American Balladry is 298 pages. That argues for a rate of
>> >1 cent per word to the author and to the publisher.>>
>> >
>> >That seems a little, er, steep. If you assume 250 words per page, that comes
>> >out to $745.00, and at that point even Alibris starts to look good. I think
>> >you meant 1 cent per page? :-)}}}
>>
>> Duh. Of course. :-)
>>
>> And my guess, based on the type size, page size, etc. is that
>> Laws is about 600 words/page, FWIW.
>
>        Since font size varies from book to book, as does the size of
>the pages, and the real meat is in the words, not the physical pages,
>perhaps an average price per word should be the basis, not a price per
>page.  (Perhaps with a published guidebook for the average words/page of
>each book in the library.)Your objection is accurate in principle -- but it's even worse than
what you outline. While people could estimate pages and font size,
just changing the *font* can dramatically affect wordage. The
difference between Times Roman (the narrowest font in the standard
Adobe type package) and Bookman (the widest) is about 15%! And while
one could perhaps ask users to estimate font size and page size,
determining what font is used is just too much to ask.It would be theoretically possible for the library staff to put a
notation on each book. But there are still BIG problems.First off, suppose we set an arbitrary rate of two cents per "average"
page. That's two cents for about 500 words, or a penny every 250 words.Suppose a book has 625 words per page, and you copy five pages. You
now owe twelve and a half cents in royalties. Tricky.But the real problem is, people will cheat. Suppose they walk in
and find that Bronson (say) is "assessed" at 1000 words per page,
so they have to pay four cents a page in royalties. Meanwhile,
Housman's _A Shropshire Lad_ (which is poetry, and most of the
poems are short) is assessed at 125 words a page, so you have to
pay only half a cent per page. People will bring over copies
of _A Shropshire Lad_ and Bronson, and show _A Shropshire Lad_
to the ISBN scanner and proceed to scan Bronson at an eighth of
the correct rate -- as well as giving the royalties to Housman's
estate (which doesn't need them, since he was homosexual and had
no children) rather than giving the money to Bronson's estate.We really have to charge by the page, since that's the simple
and indivisible unit of photocopying. If a publishing house doesn't
like the royalties it's getting for the photocopies, it can just
bite the bullet and republish the book....--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 21:22:30 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(20 lines)


John Garst wrote:> He knew the earth was round, ho! that land it could be found, ho!
> The geographic, hard and hoary navigator, gyratory Christofo Columbo.
>
> I have a hard time making that last line scan to the tune in my head.
> --Break it up as follows and repeat the tune phrase of line 3 for line 4. Note
that you need US English pronunciation for "gyratory" (rhymes with "hoary").
UK/Commonwealth English pronunciation won't work.He knew the earth was round, ho!
That land it could be found, ho!
The geographic, hard and hoary
Navigator, gyratory
Christofo Columbo.Cheers
Simon

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:05:43 -0400
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On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 03:46:39PM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> On 9/26/03, DoN. Nichols wrote:        [ ... ]> >        Since font size varies from book to book, as does the size of
> >the pages, and the real meat is in the words, not the physical pages,
> >perhaps an average price per word should be the basis, not a price per
> >page.  (Perhaps with a published guidebook for the average words/page of
> >each book in the library.)
>
> Your objection is accurate in principle -- but it's even worse than
> what you outline. While people could estimate pages and font size,
> just changing the *font* can dramatically affect wordage. The
> difference between Times Roman (the narrowest font in the standard
> Adobe type package) and Bookman (the widest) is about 15%! And while
> one could perhaps ask users to estimate font size and page size,
> determining what font is used is just too much to ask.
>
> It would be theoretically possible for the library staff to put a
> notation on each book. But there are still BIG problems.
>
> First off, suppose we set an arbitrary rate of two cents per "average"
> page. That's two cents for about 500 words, or a penny every 250 words.
>
> Suppose a book has 625 words per page, and you copy five pages. You
> now owe twelve and a half cents in royalties. Tricky.
>
> But the real problem is, people will cheat. Suppose they walk in
> and find that Bronson (say) is "assessed" at 1000 words per page,
> so they have to pay four cents a page in royalties. Meanwhile,
> Housman's _A Shropshire Lad_ (which is poetry, and most of the
> poems are short) is assessed at 125 words a page, so you have to
> pay only half a cent per page. People will bring over copies
> of _A Shropshire Lad_ and Bronson, and show _A Shropshire Lad_
> to the ISBN scanner and proceed to scan Bronson at an eighth of
> the correct rate -- as well as giving the royalties to Housman's
> estate (which doesn't need them, since he was homosexual and had
> no children) rather than giving the money to Bronson's estate.        How about a bar code on each page -- put on by a scanner, so
there is a per-page word count, and no (easy) way to fake it.  Perhaps a
bar code of your own to place over the official one, but that would be a
serious hassle, and usually not worth the trouble.> We really have to charge by the page, since that's the simple
> and indivisible unit of photocopying. If a publishing house doesn't
> like the royalties it's getting for the photocopies, it can just
> bite the bullet and republish the book....        Or -- re-publish the book with bar codes on each page, so for
future scans, they get what they consider fair on a per-page basis. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 17:30:19 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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As I recall, it was written for a Broadway musical. What's not clear is whether Mr Bryant cleaned up an existing bawdy song, or if the bawdy song was a parody of the published version.dick greenhaus> From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/09/26 Fri PM 02:33:41 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Christofo Columbo
>
> FYI, though I expect that some of you are already aware of this.
>
> We all know "Christofo Columbo" as a bawdy ballad, but in the Robert
> W. Gordon papers at the University of Oregon there is a "clean"
> version, "Written and Composed by Francis J. Bryant," "Copyright,
> 1893, by M. Witmark and Sons.  Entered at Stationers' Hall, London."
> "Words and music of this song will be sent to any address, postpaid,
> on receipt of forty cents, or this and any other two songs for One
> Dollar, by William W. Delaney, 117 Park Row, New York.  One cent
> postage stamps taken same as cash."
>
> If you wonder how the chorus could be "clean," here it is:
>
> He knew the earth was round, ho! that land it could be found, ho!
> The geographic, hard and hoary navigator, gyratory Christofo Columbo.
>
> I have a hard time making that last line scan to the tune in my head.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 18:15:44 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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On 9/26/03, DoN. Nichols wrote:[ ... ]> > But the real problem is, people will cheat. Suppose they walk in
>> and find that Bronson (say) is "assessed" at 1000 words per page,
>> so they have to pay four cents a page in royalties. Meanwhile,
>> Housman's _A Shropshire Lad_ (which is poetry, and most of the
>> poems are short) is assessed at 125 words a page, so you have to
>> pay only half a cent per page. People will bring over copies
>> of _A Shropshire Lad_ and Bronson, and show _A Shropshire Lad_
>> to the ISBN scanner and proceed to scan Bronson at an eighth of
>> the correct rate -- as well as giving the royalties to Housman's
>> estate (which doesn't need them, since he was homosexual and had
>> no children) rather than giving the money to Bronson's estate.
>
>        How about a bar code on each page -- put on by a scanner, so
>there is a per-page word count, and no (easy) way to fake it.  Perhaps a
>bar code of your own to place over the official one, but that would be a
>serious hassle, and usually not worth the trouble.But then the photocopier has to scan for the bar code. Which makes
the photocopied much more expensive. I doubt the libraries would
go for it.And, really, it's worth remembering that this is a book the publisher
doesn't want to republish. (If a book is in print, it never makes
sense to copy substantial portions.) The fact that they're getting
*anything* is a bonus.> > We really have to charge by the page, since that's the simple
>> and indivisible unit of photocopying. If a publishing house doesn't
>> like the royalties it's getting for the photocopies, it can just
>> bite the bullet and republish the book....
>
>        Or -- re-publish the book with bar codes on each page, so for
>future scans, they get what they consider fair on a per-page basis. :-)Which is an interesting economic problem in itself (ignoring the
problem above): If they cram more words onto a page, it's cheaper
to publish the book, but they get less in reprint rights. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:30:47 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 06:15:44PM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> On 9/26/03, DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> > > But the real problem is, people will cheat. Suppose they walk in
> >> and find that Bronson (say) is "assessed" at 1000 words per page,
> >> so they have to pay four cents a page in royalties. Meanwhile,
> >> Housman's _A Shropshire Lad_ (which is poetry, and most of the
> >> poems are short) is assessed at 125 words a page, so you have to
> >> pay only half a cent per page. People will bring over copies
> >> of _A Shropshire Lad_ and Bronson, and show _A Shropshire Lad_
> >> to the ISBN scanner and proceed to scan Bronson at an eighth of
> >> the correct rate -- as well as giving the royalties to Housman's
> >> estate (which doesn't need them, since he was homosexual and had
> >> no children) rather than giving the money to Bronson's estate.
> >
> >        How about a bar code on each page -- put on by a scanner, so
> >there is a per-page word count, and no (easy) way to fake it.  Perhaps a
> >bar code of your own to place over the official one, but that would be a
> >serious hassle, and usually not worth the trouble.
>
> But then the photocopier has to scan for the bar code. Which makes
> the photocopied much more expensive. I doubt the libraries would
> go for it.        An earlier point in this thread had someone suggesting that the
bigger photocopiers were already digital, and could scan the bar code
installed in the front of the book for the purpose of charging
royalties, so having it scan a barcode on each page (perhaps adjacent to
the page number) would be a relatively simple modification.  For that
matter, the barcode could even include a word count on each page, if
provided by the publisher (of future press runs, at least).> And, really, it's worth remembering that this is a book the publisher
> doesn't want to republish. (If a book is in print, it never makes
> sense to copy substantial portions.) The fact that they're getting
> *anything* is a bonus.        But I am thinking ahead -- to when publishers assume that this
follow-on source of income will be there, and add the technology to make
it easier.> > > We really have to charge by the page, since that's the simple
> >> and indivisible unit of photocopying. If a publishing house doesn't
> >> like the royalties it's getting for the photocopies, it can just
> >> bite the bullet and republish the book....
> >
> >        Or -- re-publish the book with bar codes on each page, so for
> >future scans, they get what they consider fair on a per-page basis. :-)
>
> Which is an interesting economic problem in itself (ignoring the
> problem above): If they cram more words onto a page, it's cheaper
> to publish the book, but they get less in reprint rights. :-)        Not if the barcode contains the IBSN followed by a word count for
that page.  something easy to add to new publications at least, though
exiting ones would probably have to work on an average words-per-page
value for the book (contained in the barcode label added to the inside
front cover).        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:42:25 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<If you wonder how the chorus could be "clean," here it is:He knew the earth was round, ho! that land it could be found, ho!
The geographic, hard and hoary navigator, gyratory Christofo Columbo.I have a hard time making that last line scan to the tune in my head.>>Just repeat the middle phrase a few times. It makes it easier if you
mentally break it up like this:He knew the earth was round, ho!
That land it could be found, ho!
The geographic, hard and hoary
Navigator, gyratory
Christofo Columbo.Bob, you got this for our new Earliest Date and Author fields?Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 00:53:41 -0500
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Hi guys:Let's keep it simple: By the page. Now all we have to do is get it through
Congress, once they get finished with the Do Not Call List.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:23:07 -0500
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On 9/27/03, Paul Stamler wrote:>Hi guys:
>
>Let's keep it simple: By the page.Precisely. Though we should probably work out every possible deal
before approaching congress; that way, they won't have to think
up anything, and so won't make any mistakes.>Now all we have to do is get it through
>Congress, once they get finished with the Do Not Call List.Which, given the court rulings, will probably not happen
until they get smart about it: Make *three* lists, for
sales calls, charities, pollsters. Solves the problem of
constitutionality *and* gets people off our backs.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:50:56 -0400
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>Break it up as follows and repeat the tune phrase of line 3 for line 4. Note
>that you need US English pronunciation for "gyratory" (rhymes with "hoary").
>UK/Commonwealth English pronunciation won't work.
>
>He knew the earth was round, ho!
>That land it could be found, ho!
>The geographic, hard and hoary
>Navigator, gyratory
>Christofo Columbo.
>
>Cheers
>SimonThat works!  Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 26 Sep 2003 (#2003-92)
From: Joe Fineman <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:04:11 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
John Garst, writes:> We all know "Christofo Columbo" as a bawdy ballad, but in the Robert
> W. Gordon papers at the University of Oregon there is a "clean"
> version, "Written and Composed by Francis J. Bryant," "Copyright,
> 1893, by M. Witmark and Sons.  Entered at Stationers' Hall, London."
> "Words and music of this song will be sent to any address, postpaid,
> on receipt of forty cents, or this and any other two songs for One
> Dollar, by William W. Delaney, 117 Park Row, New York.  One cent
> postage stamps taken same as cash."
>
> If you wonder how the chorus could be "clean," here it is:
>
> He knew the earth was round, ho! that land it could be found, ho!
> The geographic, hard and hoary navigator, gyratory Christofo Columbo.Oscar Brand sang a cleaned-up, if not exactly clean, version on his
LPs.  In it, Columbo was a "navigating, calculating son of a gun".
Scans, anyway.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Pessimism can only offer the empty consolation of being  :||
||:  right.                                                   :||

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:33:55 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Just a bleeping minute, folks. If someone wishes to scan and distribute a book--Laws, f'rinstance--the simplest approach would be to ask the copyright holder for permission. If it's a matter of royalties, the information could either be sold on a CD-ROM, or downloaded with a pay-for-password arrangement.I find it hard to believe that books of this nature will command large fees from copyright holders--there isn't enough interest in re-publishing them in the first place.dick greenhaus
>
> From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/09/26 Fri PM 03:46:39 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Copyright
>
> On 9/26/03, DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
> >On Fri, Sep 26, 2003 at 11:12:40AM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
> >
> >> On 9/26/03, Paul Stamler wrote:
> >>
> >> >----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
> >> >
> >> ><<Native American Balladry is 298 pages. That argues for a rate of
> >> >1 cent per word to the author and to the publisher.>>
> >> >
> >> >That seems a little, er, steep. If you assume 250 words per page, that comes
> >> >out to $745.00, and at that point even Alibris starts to look good. I think
> >> >you meant 1 cent per page? :-)}}}
> >>
> >> Duh. Of course. :-)
> >>
> >> And my guess, based on the type size, page size, etc. is that
> >> Laws is about 600 words/page, FWIW.
> >
> >        Since font size varies from book to book, as does the size of
> >the pages, and the real meat is in the words, not the physical pages,
> >perhaps an average price per word should be the basis, not a price per
> >page.  (Perhaps with a published guidebook for the average words/page of
> >each book in the library.)
>
> Your objection is accurate in principle -- but it's even worse than
> what you outline. While people could estimate pages and font size,
> just changing the *font* can dramatically affect wordage. The
> difference between Times Roman (the narrowest font in the standard
> Adobe type package) and Bookman (the widest) is about 15%! And while
> one could perhaps ask users to estimate font size and page size,
> determining what font is used is just too much to ask.
>
> It would be theoretically possible for the library staff to put a
> notation on each book. But there are still BIG problems.
>
> First off, suppose we set an arbitrary rate of two cents per "average"
> page. That's two cents for about 500 words, or a penny every 250 words.
>
> Suppose a book has 625 words per page, and you copy five pages. You
> now owe twelve and a half cents in royalties. Tricky.
>
> But the real problem is, people will cheat. Suppose they walk in
> and find that Bronson (say) is "assessed" at 1000 words per page,
> so they have to pay four cents a page in royalties. Meanwhile,
> Housman's _A Shropshire Lad_ (which is poetry, and most of the
> poems are short) is assessed at 125 words a page, so you have to
> pay only half a cent per page. People will bring over copies
> of _A Shropshire Lad_ and Bronson, and show _A Shropshire Lad_
> to the ISBN scanner and proceed to scan Bronson at an eighth of
> the correct rate -- as well as giving the royalties to Housman's
> estate (which doesn't need them, since he was homosexual and had
> no children) rather than giving the money to Bronson's estate.
>
> We really have to charge by the page, since that's the simple
> and indivisible unit of photocopying. If a publishing house doesn't
> like the royalties it's getting for the photocopies, it can just
> bite the bullet and republish the book....
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 10:38:48 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<Precisely. Though we should probably work out every possible deal
before approaching congress; that way, they won't have to think
up anything, and so won't make any mistakes.>>Which means getting a lawyer to draft the bill. Anybody know of a
ballad-loving lawyer with time on their hands and a desire for some pro-bono
time?Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 08:55:14 -0700
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Good People:The history of "Christopher Columbo" is fuzzy, to say the least.One theory, put forward by Walter Klinefleter [?] in his beautifully printed "Preface to an Unprintable Opus by Pedro Pococampo, Sometime Professor Folk Song at the University of Ferdinand and Isabella, Privately Printed 1942" argues that the song is modeled after W.S. Gilbert's patter song, "The Duke of Plaza-Toro" from "The Gondoliers" of 1889.That song contains this bit of wordplay:The celebrated,
Cultivated,
Underrated
  Nobleman,
The Duke of Plaza-Toro!The borrower was, apparently, one Francis Bryant, whose "Christofo Columbo" was inserted in a production of the play "The Isle of Champagne" as it was performed by the Thomas Q. Seabrooke Operat Company at the 1893 Columbian Exposition in Chicago.The chorus there, as Simon Furey noted earlier, is:He knew the earth was round, ho!
That land it could be found, ho!----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Friday, September 26, 2003 3:30 pm
Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo> As I recall, it was written for a Broadway musical. What's not
> clear is whether Mr Bryant cleaned up an existing bawdy song, or
> if the bawdy song was a parody of the published version.
>
>
> dick greenhaus
>
>
> > From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> > Date: 2003/09/26 Fri PM 02:33:41 CDT
> > To: [unmask]
> > Subject: Christofo Columbo
> >
> > FYI, though I expect that some of you are already aware of this.
> >
> > We all know "Christofo Columbo" as a bawdy ballad, but in the Robert
> > W. Gordon papers at the University of Oregon there is a "clean"
> > version, "Written and Composed by Francis J. Bryant," "Copyright,
> > 1893, by M. Witmark and Sons.  Entered at Stationers' Hall, London."
> > "Words and music of this song will be sent to any address, postpaid,
> > on receipt of forty cents, or this and any other two songs for One
> > Dollar, by William W. Delaney, 117 Park Row, New York.  One cent
> > postage stamps taken same as cash."
> >
> > If you wonder how the chorus could be "clean," here it is:
> >
> > He knew the earth was round, ho! that land it could be found, ho!
> > The geographic, hard and hoary navigator, gyratory Christofo
> Columbo.>
> > I have a hard time making that last line scan to the tune in my
> head.> --
> > john garst    [unmask]
> >
>

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Subject: Christopher Columbo Part II
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 09:09:48 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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Good People:(By some oddity known only to Sun Microsystems, my message was cut off and sent prematurely.  I resume my scholarly discourse herewith.)He knew the earth was round, ho!
That land it could be found, ho!
This geographic,
Hard and hoary
Navigator
Gyratory
Christopher Columbo.The none-too-funny text does contain this groaning pun sailors would appreciate:When sixty days away from land,
Upon the broad Atlantic,
The sailors they went on a strike
Which nearly caused a panic;
They all demanded eggs to eat
For each man in the crew;
Columbus had no eggs aboard,
But he made the ship lay too.It would seem logical to think that the popular song preceded the bawdy, which is, in fact, a parody.  Klinefelter asserts that by the end of the first decade of the 20th Century, the bawdy version was ubiquitous in certain circles.However, in contrast to this, consider that Frederick Pease Harlow, in his _Chanteying Aboard American Ships,_ dates the song to the 1870s when he  sailed before the mast.Take your pick.  Bawdy song to popular song, or popular song to bawdy.Ed

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 11:49:43 -0500
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On 9/27/03, [unmask] wrote:>Just a bleeping minute, folks. If someone wishes to scan and distribute a book--Laws, f'rinstance--the simplest approach would be to ask the copyright holder for permission. If it's a matter of royalties, the information could either be sold on a CD-ROM, or downloaded with a pay-for-password arrangement.Actually, it's not that simple. For older books, there is no digital
version, and the plates may not exist any more. The only ways to
reproduce it are to re-typeset the book (expensive) or produce
some sort of photostat/photocopy/unedited scan.The publisher may not want to be involved. Which makes things that
much more complicated. Hence the original point: The compulsory
license: Either keep a book in print or let others copy in whatever
form they want as long as they pay the required royalties.>I find it hard to believe that books of this nature will command large fees from copyright holders--there isn't enough interest in re-publishing them in the first place.This I won't argue.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: The Wild West Show -- A Bawdy Folksong
From: John Mehlberg <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 12:51:31 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Ed, I emailed the lady who sings "Van Amburg Is The Man" to their children
as a lullaby.  Her son Chip Sandresky will be sending me a printed score
from _Carmina Collegensia_ c1876 which contains the song.  I will pass this
on to you.See below for more info.JOHN MEHLBERG
> Hello I am trying to reach Margaret Sandreskey, the author of _Piping at
> the Circus_.
>
> If you are she, then I have a question about "Van Amburgh Is The Man"
> which you say your family knows.  I collect bawdy folksongs and
> this song is perhaps the predecessor to a bawdy song known as
> "The Hamburg Show" or the "Wild West Show".
>
> Do you know of any sheet music for this song?  If not, is it possible that
> you could send me the lyrics and a noted version of this song or
> maybe a recording? Anything at all would be invaluable.CHIP SANDRESKY
Hi John, I found it.  I have photocopies of the words and sheet music [for
"Van Amburh Is The Man" which] I can send to you.  Also I will give you the
library information so you can find local copies; I was able to locate a
copy at my Central Library here in Seattle.  Either way...The song was recorded by an old time fiddler named Mark Hamilton.  I have
the CD and the songbook.  I couldn't recommend either because his rendition
bears little resemblance to the song I know.  The lyrics in the songbook are
not complete either.  The songbook and CD are available through the Sampler
Records label based in Rochester NY.[Purchase the book & CD here: http://www.samplerfolkmusic.com/bookmh.htm ]I found earlier publications through the Brown University Library catalog.
Go to http://library.brown.edu/  Enter the words "van amburg" into the Quick
Search box and you get five entries back.The copies I have are from an 1876 collection of the songs of American
colleges called "Carmina Collegensia" by Henry Randall Waite.  The piano
accompaniment is there along with 14 verses.  Search the Brown University
catalog with the words "Carmina collegensia".  I see in my copies it was
published "by permission of the author, C. T. Miller, of Providence, RI".  I
will try to paste the catalog entry below.I hope this was helpful.  Let me know if you want photocopies.  I would be
interested to hear what you know about songs related to this one.Best Wishes,Chip and Loretta Sandresky        Author:  Waite, Henry Randall, 1845-1909. ed        Title:  Carmina collegensia, a complete collection of
                    the songs of the American colleges, with selections
                    from the student songs of the English and German
                    universities and popular songs adapted to college
                    singing, edited by Henry Randall Waite        Published: Boston, New York, c1876
        Descript'n    147, 129, 88, 5 p. 26 cm
        LOCATION     CALL #     STATUS
        ORWIG     M1945 .W24 1876      AVAILABLE
        HAY HARRIS     1-SIZE Music W1455 1876      USE IN LIBRARY
        Note    For 1-4 voices, principally with piano accompaniment
        LC subject     Students' songs
        LCCN    45049657
        Rlin/oclc    RIBGR14025824-CJOHN MEHLBERG
> Yes, I would greatly appreciate the sheet music for "Van Amburgh is the
> Man".  Is the tune the same as the that which is sung amongst your family?
>
> Thanks!
>
> John Mehlberg
> 6348 S. Rosebury Ave.
> Saint Louis, MO 63105<snip Isaac Van Amburgh history and bawdy song info>CHIP SANDRESKY
Thanks John.  I'll put those in Monday's mail.  That's great information
about Isaac Van Amburgh.  I think the story brings a lot of interesting
background into the song.  I am not a musician but I can tell the sheet
music I have matches (more or less) the tune Mom (Margaret Sandresky) sang
to us as kids and continues to sing to her grandchildren.  I have attempted
to sing it to my kids but it demands a degree of vocal dexterity and
exuberance that I am not always able to muster.I enjoyed The Wild West Show.  It reminds me of some drinking songs from my
fraternity days.  The tune is different from The Menagerie but I will leave
it to you to decide how the songs are related.

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 15:56:17 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(31 lines)


It IS that simple (if more than a bit teejus.) Scanning is scanning. What is difficult and time-consuming is using OCR to convert the scanned image to text, which is necessary if one wishes to incorporate search features.
>
> From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/09/27 Sat AM 11:49:43 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Copyright
>
> On 9/27/03, [unmask] wrote:
>
> >Just a bleeping minute, folks. If someone wishes to scan and distribute a book--Laws, f'rinstance--the simplest approach would be to ask the copyright holder for permission. If it's a matter of royalties, the information could either be sold on a CD-ROM, or downloaded with a pay-for-password arrangement.
>
> Actually, it's not that simple. For older books, there is no digital
> version, and the plates may not exist any more. The only ways to
> reproduce it are to re-typeset the book (expensive) or produce
> some sort of photostat/photocopy/unedited scan.
>
> The publisher may not want to be involved. Which makes things that
> much more complicated. Hence the original point: The compulsory
> license: Either keep a book in print or let others copy in whatever
> form they want as long as they pay the required royalties.
>
> >I find it hard to believe that books of this nature will command large fees from copyright holders--there isn't enough interest in re-publishing them in the first place.
>
> This I won't argue.
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

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Subject: Re: Copyright
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:51:47 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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Guys:As list member Lewis Becker (professor of law at Villanova) will confirm, drafting a bill in an area of such intense interest invites mischief.  Okay, so you want to copy a book, and some sharp lobbyist highjacks the bill to insert clauses extending Disney's copyright on the original Winnie the Pooh (which it didn't create, but merely bought) until hell freezes over.  Or maybe NARAS and the MPAA get together to not only make it a crime to copy a CD or DVD, but put a huge fine for a first offense.  Etc. Etc.Let well enough alone.  "Fair use" is a pretty flexible standard.  One can't build a library on it, but one can get the material necessary for a research project.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, September 27, 2003 8:38 am
Subject: Re: Copyright> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>
> <<Precisely. Though we should probably work out every possible deal
> before approaching congress; that way, they won't have to think
> up anything, and so won't make any mistakes.>>
>
> Which means getting a lawyer to draft the bill. Anybody know of a
> ballad-loving lawyer with time on their hands and a desire for
> some pro-bono
> time?
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

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Subject: Re: The Wild West Show -- A Bawdy Folksong
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:55:16 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

text/plain(134 lines)


John:Damned good work, my man!  I look forward to seeing the music.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: John Mehlberg <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:51 am
Subject: Re: The Wild West Show -- A Bawdy Folksong> Ed, I emailed the lady who sings "Van Amburg Is The Man" to their
> childrenas a lullaby.  Her son Chip Sandresky will be sending me a
> printed score
> from _Carmina Collegensia_ c1876 which contains the song.  I will
> pass this
> on to you.
>
> See below for more info.
>
>
> JOHN MEHLBERG
> > Hello I am trying to reach Margaret Sandreskey, the author of
> _Piping at
> > the Circus_.
> >
> > If you are she, then I have a question about "Van Amburgh Is The
> Man"> which you say your family knows.  I collect bawdy folksongs and
> > this song is perhaps the predecessor to a bawdy song known as
> > "The Hamburg Show" or the "Wild West Show".
> >
> > Do you know of any sheet music for this song?  If not, is it
> possible that
> > you could send me the lyrics and a noted version of this song or
> > maybe a recording? Anything at all would be invaluable.
>
> CHIP SANDRESKY
> Hi John, I found it.  I have photocopies of the words and sheet
> music [for
> "Van Amburh Is The Man" which] I can send to you.  Also I will
> give you the
> library information so you can find local copies; I was able to
> locate a
> copy at my Central Library here in Seattle.  Either way...
>
> The song was recorded by an old time fiddler named Mark Hamilton.
> I have
> the CD and the songbook.  I couldn't recommend either because his
> renditionbears little resemblance to the song I know.  The lyrics
> in the songbook are
> not complete either.  The songbook and CD are available through
> the Sampler
> Records label based in Rochester NY.
>
> [Purchase the book & CD here:
> http://www.samplerfolkmusic.com/bookmh.htm ]
>
> I found earlier publications through the Brown University Library
> catalog.Go to http://library.brown.edu/  Enter the words "van
> amburg" into the Quick
> Search box and you get five entries back.
>
> The copies I have are from an 1876 collection of the songs of American
> colleges called "Carmina Collegensia" by Henry Randall Waite.  The
> pianoaccompaniment is there along with 14 verses.  Search the
> Brown University
> catalog with the words "Carmina collegensia".  I see in my copies
> it was
> published "by permission of the author, C. T. Miller, of
> Providence, RI".  I
> will try to paste the catalog entry below.
>
> I hope this was helpful.  Let me know if you want photocopies.  I
> would be
> interested to hear what you know about songs related to this one.
>
> Best Wishes,
>
> Chip and Loretta Sandresky
>
>
>        Author:  Waite, Henry Randall, 1845-1909. ed
>
>        Title:  Carmina collegensia, a complete collection of
>                    the songs of the American colleges, with
> selections                    from the student songs of the
> English and German
>                    universities and popular songs adapted to college
>                    singing, edited by Henry Randall Waite
>
>        Published: Boston, New York, c1876
>        Descript'n    147, 129, 88, 5 p. 26 cm
>        LOCATION     CALL #     STATUS
>        ORWIG     M1945 .W24 1876      AVAILABLE
>        HAY HARRIS     1-SIZE Music W1455 1876      USE IN LIBRARY
>        Note    For 1-4 voices, principally with piano accompaniment
>        LC subject     Students' songs
>        LCCN    45049657
>        Rlin/oclc    RIBGR14025824-C
>
>
> JOHN MEHLBERG
> > Yes, I would greatly appreciate the sheet music for "Van Amburgh
> is the
> > Man".  Is the tune the same as the that which is sung amongst
> your family?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > John Mehlberg
> > 6348 S. Rosebury Ave.
> > Saint Louis, MO 63105
>
> <snip Isaac Van Amburgh history and bawdy song info>
>
>
> CHIP SANDRESKY
> Thanks John.  I'll put those in Monday's mail.  That's great
> informationabout Isaac Van Amburgh.  I think the story brings a
> lot of interesting
> background into the song.  I am not a musician but I can tell the
> sheetmusic I have matches (more or less) the tune Mom (Margaret
> Sandresky) sang
> to us as kids and continues to sing to her grandchildren.  I have
> attemptedto sing it to my kids but it demands a degree of vocal
> dexterity and
> exuberance that I am not always able to muster.
>
> I enjoyed The Wild West Show.  It reminds me of some drinking
> songs from my
> fraternity days.  The tune is different from The Menagerie but I
> will leave
> it to you to decide how the songs are related.
>

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Subject: Ebay List - 09/27/03
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 18:19:17 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Hi!        Here I am again! I hope that everyone is enjoying the start of
fall (or spring for anyone south of the Equator). I also hope everyone
has avoided the many viruses/worms appearing on the Internet recently.
Here is this week's list.        SONGSTERS        3552853656 - WYLIE & SANFORD IRISH SONGSTER, 1900?, $9.95 (ends
Sep-28-03 12:36:02 PDT)        3554625724 - The Campaign Lives of Ulysses S. Grant and Schuyler
Colfax (inc. songster), 1868, $39.99 (ends Oct-02-03 19:28:07 PDT)        3553912069 - Irish National Songster (the Erin-Go-Bragh Songbook
and the Faugh-A-Ballagh Songbook), 1883, $10 w/reserve (ends Oct-02-03
22:51:22 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2559846381 - Eighty English Folk Songs by Sharp & Karpeles, 1975
reprint, 24.02 GBP (ends Sep-28-03 06:04:25 PDT)        2559848022 - The Seeds of Love by Sedley, 1973 reprint, 25.02
GBP (ends Sep-28-03 06:18:51 PDT)        2559849592 - The Crystal Spring by Sharp & Karpeles, 1975, 8.10
GBP (ends Sep-28-03 06:32:22 PDT)        2559855196 - Come all ye Bold Miners by Lloyd, 1978 edition,
10.50 GBP (ends Sep-28-03 07:11:07 PDT)        2559857478 - Folk Songs of the Upper Thames by Williams, 1970
reprint, 21.50 GBP (ends Sep-28-03 07:26:14 PDT)        2559890406 - A Selection of Some Less Known Folk-Songs Vol 2 by
Sharp, etc., 1960?, 2.75 GBP (ends Sep-28-03 10:15:02 PDT)        3554568182 - Ballads by Gautier, 1903, $1.99 (ends Sep-28-03
14:26:23 PDT)        2559981501 - IRISH MUSIC HALL by ?, ?, $4.95 (ends Sep-28-03
16:25:22 PDT)        3553593181 - The Book Of British Ballads by Hall, 1847, $25
(ends Sep-28-03 16:34:26 PDT)        3553369650 - THE POPULAR BALLAD by Gummere, 1959, $9.99 (ends
Sep-28-03 17:15:00 PDT)        2560000133 - Mountain Songs of North Carolina by Wetmore &
Bartholomew, 1926, $9.95 (ends Sep-28-03 17:51:47 PDT)        2560000311 - Kentucky Mountain Folk Songs by Wheeler, 1937,
$9.95 (ends Sep-28-03 17:52:39 PDT)        2560014668 - Ballads, Carols, and Tragic Legends from the
Southern Appalachian Mountains by Niles, 1937, $4.95 (ends Sep-28-03
18:50:13 PDT)        3553578603 - Songs of American Sailormen by Colcord, 1938
edition, $16 (ends Sep-28-03 15:13:43 PDT)        3553655944 - Index to the New World Recorded Anthology of
American Music by Davis, 1981, $5 (ends Sep-28-03 20:34:38 PDT)        3350562958 - SONGS OF THE SOUTHLAND by Sizemore, 1947, $5.95
(ends Sep-29-03 13:15:00 PDT)        2560317957 - Pint Pot and Billy: A Selection of Australian and
New Zealand Folksongs by Fahey, 1977, $2.95 (ends Sep-30-03 07:00:13
PDT)        3553996321 - Rolling Along in Song: A Chronological Survey of
American Negro Music by Johnson, 1937, $36.95 (ends Sep-30-03 10:06:28
PDT)        3553566667 - SCOTS BALLADS, 1941, 4.95 GBP (ends Oct-01-03
14:19:54 PDT)        3554154809 - LONESOME TUNES FOLK SONGS OF THE KENTUCKY MOUNTAINS
by Wyman, 1916, $3 (Ends Sep-30-03 19:56:53 PDT)        3554324722 - The Oxford Book of English Traditional Verse by
Woods, 1983, 4.99 GBP (ends Oct-04-03 14:58:39 PDT)        3554206537 - FOR GAWSDAKE DON'T TAKE ME " - MORE SONGS AND
BALLADS OF WORLD WAR 11 AND NATIONAL SERVICE LIFE by Page, 1977, 1.49
GBP (ends Oct-01-03 04:28:22 PDT)        3554309291 - Louisiana French Folk Songs by Whitfield, 1969,
$3.20 (ends Oct-01-03 13:32:00 PDT)        3554353524 - The Merry Muses of Caledonia by Burns, 1964, $8.50
(ends Oct-01-03 18:11:32 PDT)        3554360414 - American Ballads And Songs by Pound, 1972 edition,
$2 (ends Oct-01-03 18:48:46 PDT)        2560703487 - Schirmer American Folk-Song Series, this is #24,
The Anglo-American Ballad Study Book by Niles, 1945, $4.95 (ends
Oct-01-03 19:20:37 PDT)        2560892109 - John Ward's COLLECTION OF IRISH COMIC SONGS, 1847,
$5 (ends Oct-02-03 14:04:32 PDT)        2193940640 - MY FAVORITE MOUNTAIN BALLADS and OLD TIME SONGS by
Kincaid, 1931, $7 (ends Oct-02-03 20:32:28 PDT)        3554725595 - The English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Child,
5 volumes, 1965 Dover edition, $25 (ends Oct-03-03 11:01:40 PDT)        3554306239 - AUTHENTIC AUSTRALIAN BUSH BALLADS by Meredith &
Scott, $9.95 (ends Oct-04-03 13:19:39 PDT)        2561193638 - Folksongs and Their Makers by Glassie, Ives &
Szwed, 1.99 GBP (ends Oct-04-03 04:18:10 PDT)        3350318190 - MUSIC FOLIO OF OLD IRISH BALLADS, $8 (ends
Oct-05-03 12:00:00 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Ebay List - 09/27/03
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:45:03 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Thank you, Dolores, a fine job and very useful service as usual.Some of you may also be interested in #3554611658,
SINGING SOLDIERS by John J. Niles, illustrated by Margaret Thorniley
Williamson, 1927, published by Charles Scribner's Sons - New York -
London,
Ends Oct-02-03 18:23:42 PDT , starting at $15.John Roberts

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Subject: Bronson (was Re: Ebay List - 09/27/03)
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:57:50 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

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On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:45:03PM -0400, John Roberts wrote:
> Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:45:03 -0400
> From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Ebay List - 09/27/03
> To: [unmask]
>
> Thank you, Dolores, a fine job and very useful service as usual.
>
> Some of you may also be interested in #3554611658,
> SINGING SOLDIERS by John J. Niles, illustrated by Margaret Thorniley
> Williamson, 1927, published by Charles Scribner's Sons - New York -
> London,
> Ends Oct-02-03 18:23:42 PDT , starting at $15.Thank you, John for the addition that my searches missed.Now for something that I found after I posted the list.For months, I saw only one copy of Bronson and that was only volume one.
Suddenly, starting about a month ago, copies have been appearing on Ebay
almost weekly. This week there are volumes 1, 2, & 3 - each in a
separate auction. They are all by the same seller and all have Buy Now
prices in addition to the starting price.3554905734 - volume 1, $150 (ends Oct-04-03 10:21:42 PDT)
3554909037 - volume 2, $150 (ends Oct-04-03 10:36:13 PDT)
3554913313 - volume 3, $180 (ends Oct-04-03 10:53:04 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Bronson (was Re: Ebay List - 09/27/03)
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 03:23:49 -0400
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I noticed that the complete set didn't quite fetch a thousand
dollars, though the only set offered "for sale" was $2250. Perhaps
the news that Brother Kleiman has a digital edition in the works is
bringing down the price of the hard copy, and people are scrambling
to cash in as much as they can before the bottom of Bronson drops
right out, so to speak.John>On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:45:03PM -0400, John Roberts wrote:
>> Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:45:03 -0400
>> From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: Ebay List - 09/27/03
>> To: [unmask]
>>
>> Thank you, Dolores, a fine job and very useful service as usual.
>>
>> Some of you may also be interested in #3554611658,
>> SINGING SOLDIERS by John J. Niles, illustrated by Margaret Thorniley
>> Williamson, 1927, published by Charles Scribner's Sons - New York -
>> London,
>> Ends Oct-02-03 18:23:42 PDT , starting at $15.
>
>Thank you, John for the addition that my searches missed.
>
>Now for something that I found after I posted the list.
>
>For months, I saw only one copy of Bronson and that was only volume one.
>Suddenly, starting about a month ago, copies have been appearing on Ebay
>almost weekly. This week there are volumes 1, 2, & 3 - each in a
>separate auction. They are all by the same seller and all have Buy Now
>prices in addition to the starting price.
>
>3554905734 - volume 1, $150 (ends Oct-04-03 10:21:42 PDT)
>3554909037 - volume 2, $150 (ends Oct-04-03 10:36:13 PDT)
>3554913313 - volume 3, $180 (ends Oct-04-03 10:53:04 PDT)
>
>                                Happy Bidding!
>                                Dolores
>
>--
>Dolores Nichols                 |
>D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
>Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Bronson (was Re: Ebay List - 09/27/03)
From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 07:31:08 -0500
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At 11:57 PM 9/27/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>For months, I saw only one copy of Bronson and that was only volume one.
>Suddenly, starting about a month ago, copies have been appearing on Ebay
>almost weekly. This week there are volumes 1, 2, & 3 - each in a
>separate auction. They are all by the same seller and all have Buy Now
>prices in addition to the starting price.High prices bring them out of the closet! Often, when we sell something
especially rare at a very high price, we'll get a call from someone
offering to sell us their copy of the same book. "I had no idea it was
going for such a large amount," they say.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

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Subject:
From: George Madaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 16:09:16 -0400
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Recently my wife and I were talking about modern  Irish poems sung by
folk singers (e.g., Tarry Flynn  sung by Paddy Reily or Ragland Road
sung by Luke Kelly ). Today she pointed out an interesting passage
(p.13)  in The Cambridge Companion to Contemporary Irish Poetry (2003)
Edited by Matthew Campbell. After "Bloody Sunday"  in January of 1972
Seamus Heaney wrote a poem -- ballad verses --  entitled The Road to
Derry which he  sent to Luke Kelly of the Dubliners to sing.Kelly did
not take up the offer and 25 years later  Heaney  consented to the
publishing of the ballad in the 1997 commemorative issue of the Derry
Journal  Does anyone know if the Road to Derry was even sung/recorded?George

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: [unmask]
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Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:59:04 EDT
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Subject: Re: Bronson (was Re: Ebay List - 09/27/03)
From: Lewis Becker <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:15:41 -0400
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The answer as to why the Bronsons are appearing is easy, I think.  The
seller who is offering the 3 volumes individually is the same person who
bought the 4 volume set. The 4 volume set were all in dust wrappers.
This guy obviously owned the first 3 volumes, two of which are described
as ex library.  Having bought the very nice 4 volume set for a large sum
of money, he is now trying to recoup some - or if he gets lucky most -
of their cost by selling off what are now lesser quality duplicates.  He
gets the complete set (assuming that he didn't own voume 4) in a very
nice condition and defrays some or most of the cost.Lew BeckerLewis Becker
Professor of Law
Villanova University School of Law
(610.519.7074)
(Fax - 610.519.5672)
>>> [unmask] 09/27/03 11:57 PM >>>
On Sat, Sep 27, 2003 at 07:45:03PM -0400, John Roberts wrote:
> Date:         Sat, 27 Sep 2003 19:45:03 -0400
> From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Ebay List - 09/27/03
> To: [unmask]
>
> Thank you, Dolores, a fine job and very useful service as usual.
>
> Some of you may also be interested in #3554611658,
> SINGING SOLDIERS by John J. Niles, illustrated by Margaret Thorniley
> Williamson, 1927, published by Charles Scribner's Sons - New York -
> London,
> Ends Oct-02-03 18:23:42 PDT , starting at $15.Thank you, John for the addition that my searches missed.Now for something that I found after I posted the list.For months, I saw only one copy of Bronson and that was only volume one.
Suddenly, starting about a month ago, copies have been appearing on Ebay
almost weekly. This week there are volumes 1, 2, & 3 - each in a
separate auction. They are all by the same seller and all have Buy Now
prices in addition to the starting price.3554905734 - volume 1, $150 (ends Oct-04-03 10:21:42 PDT)
3554909037 - volume 2, $150 (ends Oct-04-03 10:36:13 PDT)
3554913313 - volume 3, $180 (ends Oct-04-03 10:53:04 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 18:55:00 -0500
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On 9/28/03, [unmask] wrote:>In a message dated 9/26/2003 11:30:27 PM GMT Daylight Time, [unmask] writes:
>
>>What's not clear is whether Mr Bryant cleaned up an existing bawdy song,
>>
>
>
>This is not the way things go!
>
>or if the bawdy song was a parody of the published version.
>
>>
>
>This is!Not always. Consider "The Lehigh Valley" and "The Tramp's
Story." The former has a very strong claim to be original;
it's a much stronger song if you can bring yourself to
use the words. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 22:22:18 -0400
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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:52:07 -0700
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John:I am sorry to say that there was a popular recording of "Barnacle Bill the Sailor" in the 1929 by Frank Luther and Carson Robison, one of "The Fire Ship" in the 50's, "The Gay Caballero" in 1929 [by Frank Crumit].  There are other examples, among them "Bless Them All" and "The Duckworth Chant," but these come to mind easily.Then there was the Southern Mountain lullaby:Daddy shot a bear. Daddy shot a bear.
Shot him through the asshole, never touched a hair.Ruth Crawford Seeger cleaned it up a bit in one of her collections of folk songs for children, to read:
"Shot him through the keyhole, never touched a hair."   How many thousands of kids learn the bowdlerized text, and never learn the original?There are, of course, any number of bawdy songs that  began life innocently enough, as popular songs, and were parodied.  (See my _Erotic Muse_ second edition, pages 269-295, for a selection.)Ed----- Original Message -----
From: [unmask]
Date: Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:59 pm
Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo> In a message dated 9/26/2003 11:30:27 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
> > What's not clear is whether Mr Bryant cleaned up an existing
> bawdy song,
>
> This is not the way things go!
>
> or if the bawdy song was a parody of the published version.
> >
> >
> This is!
>
> John Moulden
>

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:43:45 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]><<THings don't always go the same way. Consider a 50's hit recording by
Oscar Brand called "a Guy's a Guy"---it was a bawdy song at least as far
back as D'Urfey.
Or the popular commercial version of "Bless 'Em All" Or.....>>Or "Rum and Coca-Cola", somewhat cleaned up for the American pop market from
its calypso original. Or, for that matter, "All Day, All Night, Mary Ann",
which my dad knew as a thoroughly bawdy calypso in Bermuda, but was much
cleaned up for Yankee audiences.Or the many songs Cecil Sharp bowdlerized -- changing "He never shall have
my maidenhead" to "He never shall change my maiden name" being a primo
example.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 28 Sep 2003 23:55:32 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: edward cray <[unmask]><<Then there was the Southern Mountain lullaby:Daddy shot a bear. Daddy shot a bear.
Shot him through the asshole, never touched a hair.Ruth Crawford Seeger cleaned it up a bit in one of her collections of folk
songs for children, to read:
"Shot him through the keyhole, never touched a hair."   How many thousands
of kids learn the bowdlerized text, and never learn the original?>>Yes, but how many kids, having learned the bowdlerized one, independently
come up with the bawdy version among themselves, when the grownups aren't
around, and think it's new?By the way, Ed, do you have record numbers for the "Fire Ship" and "Gay
Caballero" recordings? (We already have "Barnacle Bill".Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 05:30:36 -0700
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Paul:Sorry.  I don't.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:55 pm
Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo> ----- Original Message -----
> From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>
> <<Then there was the Southern Mountain lullaby:
>
> Daddy shot a bear. Daddy shot a bear.
> Shot him through the asshole, never touched a hair.
>
> Ruth Crawford Seeger cleaned it up a bit in one of her collections
> of folk
> songs for children, to read:
> "Shot him through the keyhole, never touched a hair."   How many
> thousandsof kids learn the bowdlerized text, and never learn the
> original?>>
> Yes, but how many kids, having learned the bowdlerized one,
> independentlycome up with the bawdy version among themselves, when
> the grownups aren't
> around, and think it's new?
>
> By the way, Ed, do you have record numbers for the "Fire Ship" and
> "GayCaballero" recordings? (We already have "Barnacle Bill".
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: [unmask]
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Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:52:28 EDT
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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: [unmask]
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Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:56:50 EDT
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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:07:37 -0500
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> Well, Union Maid was based on the bawdy version of Redwing. Does that count? In any case, my comment on the possible bawdy origin of Columbo would certainly fit into the "commercial" portion of your hypothesis.
I suspect that there was a fair amount of laundering in the folk process--"Foggy Foggy Dew comes to mind".
dick greenhaus> From: [unmask]
> Date: 2003/09/29 Mon AM 07:56:50 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
>
> Is it fair to say that all the examples cited of cleaning up are the work,
> either of educators, or of popular artists wanting to use a bawdy song in a
> commercially acceptable way? I wonder can anyone think of a reverse from bawdy to
> clean outside the educational or commercial. I don't think it would happen
> without the mediating influence.
>
> John Moulden
>
>

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:24:54 -0500
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<<Is it fair to say that all the examples cited of cleaning up are the work,
either of educators, or of popular artists wanting to use a bawdy song in a
commercially acceptable way? I wonder can anyone think of a reverse from
bawdy to
clean outside the educational or commercial. I don't think it would happen
without the mediating influence.>>Probably not, but there are other mediating influences, including general
perceptions of (public) morality. I think the latter influenced Cecil Sharp,
for example; he wasn't really an educator, although he certainly prepared a
lot of material for the schools.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:24:28 -0700
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John:I suspect there must be a mediating influence to impell a recording artist
or educator to clean up a bawdy folk song for wider distribution: profit.Another mediating influence, I suspect, would be fame, or love of oral
traditional, or traditionary songs, viz. Cecil Sharp's emandations, as
well as Baring-Gould (religious conviction).EdOn Mon, 29 Sep 2003 [unmask] wrote:> Is it fair to say that all the examples cited of cleaning up are the work,
> either of educators, or of popular artists wanting to use a bawdy song in a
> commercially acceptable way? I wonder can anyone think of a reverse from bawdy to
> clean outside the educational or commercial. I don't think it would happen
> without the mediating influence.
>
> John Moulden
>

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Subject: Re: cleaning up ballads
From: Mary Cliff <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:18:03 -0400
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Maybe i've missed something, but surely another reason to clean up the
bawdy songs as they exist in real life:  you sing them to your babies, but
they'll soon understand (or try to, anyway) what you're singing and in
order to continue singing them as the kids grow, you're likely to change a
few words here and there....Mary Cliff, TRADITIONS
WETA Radio

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 16:48:39 +0100
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John,
It can happen in circumstances that are neither commercial nor educational,
specifically when a song passes from one tradition/language to another. I
cite a wonderful example in my doctoral thesis of Thomas d'Urfey's "D'ye
fancy a virgin of sweet sixteen" which ended up as a dance tune in Valencia,
Spain. It seems likely that it went over with the British troops in the
Peninsular War. The dance by the way is called "llanceros", i.e. it's the
Lancers. As I say in my thesis, I wonder what the worthies of Valencia would
think if they knew the English words!
Cheers
Simon----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:56 PM
Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo> Is it fair to say that all the examples cited of cleaning up are the work,
> either of educators, or of popular artists wanting to use a bawdy song in
a
> commercially acceptable way? I wonder can anyone think of a reverse from
bawdy to
> clean outside the educational or commercial. I don't think it would happen
> without the mediating influence.
>
> John Moulden
>

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Jean Lepley <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:21:53 -0700
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I don't think we should assume that it's necessarily the collector who
"cleaned up" a song; it could just as easily in the case of the Two
Magicians, for instance, have been the singer's own discomfort with
sexually explicit language.   And for an early example of bawdy to clean,
has anyone mentioned John Anderson?On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Ed Cray wrote:> John:
>
> I suspect there must be a mediating influence to impell a recording artist
> or educator to clean up a bawdy folk song for wider distribution: profit.
>
> Another mediating influence, I suspect, would be fame, or love of oral
> traditional, or traditionary songs, viz. Cecil Sharp's emandations, as
> well as Baring-Gould (religious conviction).
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 [unmask] wrote:
>
> > Is it fair to say that all the examples cited of cleaning up are the work,
> > either of educators, or of popular artists wanting to use a bawdy song in a
> > commercially acceptable way? I wonder can anyone think of a reverse from bawdy to
> > clean outside the educational or commercial. I don't think it would happen
> > without the mediating influence.
> >
> > John Moulden
> >
>

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Subject: Gay Caballero etc
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:30:28 -0700
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Gay Caballero is Victor 21735.  I don't have "Fireship" but I'm trying to
track  down the release.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo> Paul:
>
> Sorry.  I don't.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> Date: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:55 pm
> Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> >
> > <<Then there was the Southern Mountain lullaby:
> >
> > Daddy shot a bear. Daddy shot a bear.
> > Shot him through the asshole, never touched a hair.
> >
> > Ruth Crawford Seeger cleaned it up a bit in one of her collections
> > of folk
> > songs for children, to read:
> > "Shot him through the keyhole, never touched a hair."   How many
> > thousandsof kids learn the bowdlerized text, and never learn the
> > original?>>
> > Yes, but how many kids, having learned the bowdlerized one,
> > independentlycome up with the bawdy version among themselves, when
> > the grownups aren't
> > around, and think it's new?
> >
> > By the way, Ed, do you have record numbers for the "Fire Ship" and
> > "GayCaballero" recordings? (We already have "Barnacle Bill".
> >
> > Peace,
> > Paul
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 10:31:35 -0700
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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: [unmask]
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Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:47:56 EDT
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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: [unmask]
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Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:49:34 EDT
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Subject: Re: cleaning up ballads
From: [unmask]
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Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:55:00 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Wild West Show
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:06:50 -0500
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Ed,
I'd love to be Able to post a copy of The Royal Wild Beast Show to the List
but I don't know how. I can certainly put the text up straight away. Other
than that let me have your address and I'll send you a photocopy.
Steve.

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Subject: Re: cleaning up ballads
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:55:41 -0500
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On 9/29/03, Mary Cliff wrote:>Maybe i've missed something, but surely another reason to clean up the
>bawdy songs as they exist in real life:  you sing them to your babies, but
>they'll soon understand (or try to, anyway) what you're singing and in
>order to continue singing them as the kids grow, you're likely to change a
>few words here and there....
>
>Mary Cliff, TRADITIONS
>WETA RadioYou obviously are not Scottish. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:05:58 -0500
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On 9/29/03, [unmask] wrote:>Is it fair to say that all the examples cited of cleaning up are the work, either of educators, or of popular artists wanting to use a bawdy song in a commercially acceptable way? I wonder can anyone think of a reverse from bawdy to clean outside the educational or commercial. I don't think it would happen without the mediating influence.
>
>John MouldenIt depends on your definition of "cleaning up." There are plenty of
songs which grow cleaner just by ordinary means -- think of all the
highly explicit English songs which became clean in the United
States. "The Foggy Dew" has been mentioned. Think about the
versions of "Edward."It is, I concede, much harder to cite a case of a truly bawdy song --
one that exists for the "dirt" rather than the plot -- that was
cleaned up. But that's hardly surprising; a plot can be transmitted
in any words you choose. A song that's dirty for the sake of being
dirty has no reason to be "translated."
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 13:40:58 -0500
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Hi-
That one also showed up in Beggar's Opera as "When the Heart of a Man is Depress'd With Care". Also cleaned up.dick greenhaus
>
> From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/09/29 Mon AM 10:48:39 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
>
> John,
> It can happen in circumstances that are neither commercial nor educational,
> specifically when a song passes from one tradition/language to another. I
> cite a wonderful example in my doctoral thesis of Thomas d'Urfey's "D'ye
> fancy a virgin of sweet sixteen" which ended up as a dance tune in Valencia,
> Spain. It seems likely that it went over with the British troops in the
> Peninsular War. The dance by the way is called "llanceros", i.e. it's the
> Lancers. As I say in my thesis, I wonder what the worthies of Valencia would
> think if they knew the English words!
> Cheers
> Simon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
>
>
> > Is it fair to say that all the examples cited of cleaning up are the work,
> > either of educators, or of popular artists wanting to use a bawdy song in
> a
> > commercially acceptable way? I wonder can anyone think of a reverse from
> bawdy to
> > clean outside the educational or commercial. I don't think it would happen
> > without the mediating influence.
> >
> > John Moulden
> >
>

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Subject: Re: cleaning up ballads
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:21:35 -0400
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On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 01:55:00PM -0400, [unmask] wrote:> In a message dated 9/29/2003 5:21:18 PM GMT Daylight Time, [unmask]
> writes:
>
> > Maybe i've missed something, but surely another reason to clean up the
> > bawdy songs as they exist in real life:  you sing them to your babies, but
> > they'll soon understand (or try to, anyway) what you're singing and in
> > order to continue singing them as the kids grow, you're likely to change a
> > few words here and there....
> >
>
> Yes, and, if I may begin to form a hypothesis - do not all of the
> transformations posited here and earlier entail a change of audience and the mediation
> comes from a performer who believes that the new audience, or the sought
> audience, will not be able to handle, or will not approve of, the bawdy?        Stan Hugil cleaned up the words in his books.  I remember how
difficult it was to get him to sing them as they really were sung at a
workshop for that purpose at the Mystic Sea Music festival.  It took Tom
Lewis staring off with a challenge that the Royal Navy had more dirty
songs -- both in quantity and quality -- than the merchant marine ever had,
and then singing an example.  This followed by a trio of women (Wild
Rose) singing other bawdy songs, to get him loosened up a bit.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

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Subject: Re: Gay Caballero etc
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:38:23 -0500
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<<Gay Caballero is Victor 21735.  I don't have "Fireship" but I'm trying to
track  down the release.>>Thanks. Meanwhile, like a dork, I deleted Ed's original message. Who were
the artists again on "Gay Cab." and "Fireship"?Duh,
PaulNorm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo> Paul:
>
> Sorry.  I don't.
>
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> Date: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:55 pm
> Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> >
> > <<Then there was the Southern Mountain lullaby:
> >
> > Daddy shot a bear. Daddy shot a bear.
> > Shot him through the asshole, never touched a hair.
> >
> > Ruth Crawford Seeger cleaned it up a bit in one of her collections
> > of folk
> > songs for children, to read:
> > "Shot him through the keyhole, never touched a hair."   How many
> > thousandsof kids learn the bowdlerized text, and never learn the
> > original?>>
> > Yes, but how many kids, having learned the bowdlerized one,
> > independentlycome up with the bawdy version among themselves, when
> > the grownups aren't
> > around, and think it's new?
> >
> > By the way, Ed, do you have record numbers for the "Fire Ship" and
> > "GayCaballero" recordings? (We already have "Barnacle Bill".
> >
> > Peace,
> > Paul
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 12:34:53 -0700
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Subject: Re: Gay Caballero etc
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:28:54 -0700
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Gay Caballero was Frank Crumit.  He didn't say which of The Fireship, (he
said 1950s), unless he meant the Weavers' Dark and a Roving Eye.
Norm>
> Thanks. Meanwhile,... I deleted Ed's original message. Who were
> the artists again on "Gay Cab." and "Fireship"?
>
>

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Subject: Re: Gay Caballero etc
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:34:12 -0700
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Norm:My memory serving, it was Guy Mitchell, aided and abetted by Mitch
Miller, who recorded "The Fire Ship" (aka "She Had a Dark and a Roving
Eye"/"One of the Roving Kind") in the 1950s.EdOn Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Norm Cohen wrote:> Gay Caballero is Victor 21735.  I don't have "Fireship" but I'm trying to
> track  down the release.
> Norm Cohen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 5:30 AM
> Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
>
>
> > Paul:
> >
> > Sorry.  I don't.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> > Date: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:55 pm
> > Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> > >
> > > <<Then there was the Southern Mountain lullaby:
> > >
> > > Daddy shot a bear. Daddy shot a bear.
> > > Shot him through the asshole, never touched a hair.
> > >
> > > Ruth Crawford Seeger cleaned it up a bit in one of her collections
> > > of folk
> > > songs for children, to read:
> > > "Shot him through the keyhole, never touched a hair."   How many
> > > thousandsof kids learn the bowdlerized text, and never learn the
> > > original?>>
> > > Yes, but how many kids, having learned the bowdlerized one,
> > > independentlycome up with the bawdy version among themselves, when
> > > the grownups aren't
> > > around, and think it's new?
> > >
> > > By the way, Ed, do you have record numbers for the "Fire Ship" and
> > > "GayCaballero" recordings? (We already have "Barnacle Bill".
> > >
> > > Peace,
> > > Paul
> > >
> >
>

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Subject: Re: cleaning up ballads
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:37:53 -0700
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John:I think you have found the commonality: apprehension of offending.EdOn Mon, 29 Sep 2003 [unmask] wrote:> In a message dated 9/29/2003 5:21:18 PM GMT Daylight Time, [unmask]
> writes:
>
> > Maybe i've missed something, but surely another reason to clean up the
> > bawdy songs as they exist in real life:  you sing them to your babies, but
> > they'll soon understand (or try to, anyway) what you're singing and in
> > order to continue singing them as the kids grow, you're likely to change a
> > few words here and there....
> >
>
> Yes, and, if I may begin to form a hypothesis - do not all of the
> transformations posited here and earlier entail a change of audience and the mediation
> comes from a performer who believes that the new audience, or the sought
> audience, will not be able to handle, or will not approve of, the bawdy?
>
> John
>

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Subject: Bibliographic Note
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 29 Sep 2003 15:41:57 -0700
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Folks:Jeff Kallen earlier sent me a bibliographic note that I, collector of
slang dictionaries, thought useful.  I asked him if I could post it to
ballad-l, and he replied:Dear Ed,By all means, feel free to pass on my bibliographical comments if you
think they'll interest the Ballad-L group. I know that it can be hard to
find these out-of-the-way glossaries and word lists. Incidentally, I'm
trying to track down this 'D.K.Gavan, The Galway Poet' who's been
mentioned recently, but he's not listed in either the *Mercier Companion
to Irish Literature* or *The Concise Oxford Companion to Irish
Literature*, which I usually rely on for such things. If and when I found
out anything, I'll share it!Jeff

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 28 Sep 2003 to 29 Sep 2003 - Special issue (#2003-96)
From: Joe Fineman <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:20:01 -0400
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Automatic digest processor <[unmask]> writes:> Is it fair to say that all the examples cited of cleaning up are the
> work, either of educators, or of popular artists wanting to use a
> bawdy song in a commercially acceptable way? I wonder can anyone
> think of a reverse from bawdy to clean outside the educational or
> commercial. I don't think it would happen without the mediating
> influence.I can supply an anecdotal counterexample.  In my high school, in the
early 1950s, a round was sung, to a negligible tune, with the words  There was a little bird
  No bigger than a turd
  A-sitting on a telephone pole,
  And he let a little fart,
  And he shat about a quart,
  And he puckered up his little asshole,
  Asshole, asshole, asshole,
  And he puckered up his little asshole.I made up a version  There is a little bird,
  Whose song I've often heard,
  As he flies among the maple trees,
  And he sings his little song
  As the branch he trips along
  Sways gently in the breeze, etc.This was neither for commercial nor for educational purposes, but so
that there would be a version that could be sung in polite company
while exchanging knowing looks.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  The tragedy is not what we suffer, but what we miss.  :||

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Subject: Re: Gay Caballero etc
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:07:26 -0700
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Your memory serves you well.  Mitchell's recording hit the charts December
1950 (Columbia 78-39067), hitting #4; the Weavers' version charted later
that month and made it only to #11 (Decca 27332).
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Gay Caballero etc> Norm:
>
> My memory serving, it was Guy Mitchell, aided and abetted by Mitch
> Miller, who recorded "The Fire Ship" (aka "She Had a Dark and a Roving
> Eye"/"One of the Roving Kind") in the 1950s.
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Norm Cohen wrote:
>
> > Gay Caballero is Victor 21735.  I don't have "Fireship" but I'm trying
to
> > track  down the release.
> > Norm Cohen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> > To: <[unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 5:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
> >
> >
> > > Paul:
> > >
> > > Sorry.  I don't.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> > > Date: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:55 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
> > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> > > >
> > > > <<Then there was the Southern Mountain lullaby:
> > > >
> > > > Daddy shot a bear. Daddy shot a bear.
> > > > Shot him through the asshole, never touched a hair.
> > > >
> > > > Ruth Crawford Seeger cleaned it up a bit in one of her collections
> > > > of folk
> > > > songs for children, to read:
> > > > "Shot him through the keyhole, never touched a hair."   How many
> > > > thousandsof kids learn the bowdlerized text, and never learn the
> > > > original?>>
> > > > Yes, but how many kids, having learned the bowdlerized one,
> > > > independentlycome up with the bawdy version among themselves, when
> > > > the grownups aren't
> > > > around, and think it's new?
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Ed, do you have record numbers for the "Fire Ship" and
> > > > "GayCaballero" recordings? (We already have "Barnacle Bill".
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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Subject: Further Bibliographic Note
From: Jeffrey Kallen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:40:17 +0100
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Folks,Ed's posting on references for Irish authors prompts me to pass on the
original note which I sent concerning dictionaries of Irish English. This
may be of use to some:>there are two new dictionaries pertaining to the use of English in Ireland
>that might be of interest to you. One is yet another slang dictionary,
>*Greenspeak: Ireland in Her Own Words* by Paddy Sammon (Dublin: Town
>House, 2002), and the other is Bernard Share's *Naming Names: Who, What,
>Where in Ireland* (Dublin: Gill & Macmillan, 2001). The former is light
>hearted, but it does refer to some terms that would otherwise be obscure
>to outsiders (and might occasionally surface in song), while the latter is
>a rather more solid work that lists a large number of important people,
>places, and names that do from time to time crop up in song and
>literature, often without any explanation since they are taken for
>granted. Share's dictionary of Irish English slang, *Slanguage* has also
>come out in a second edition (Dublin: Gill & Macmillan, 2003).While I'm at it, I could also mention the *Concise Ulster Dictionary*
edited by Caroline Macafee (Oxford U. Press, 1996) and Richard Wall's *An
Irish Literary Dictionary and Glossary* (Gerrard's Cross: Colin Smythe,
2001). All of these may be helpful to someone trying to make sense out of
that obscure word in a song -- and words of Irish English don't just turn
up in Irish songs, but anywhere in the Irish diaspora.Happy wordsleuthing,Jeff Kallen

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Subject: Re: Gay Caballero etc
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:14:00 -0500
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<<Your memory serves you well.  Mitchell's recording hit the charts December
1950 (Columbia 78-39067), hitting #4; the Weavers' version charted later
that month and made it only to #11 (Decca 27332).>>Under what titles did they appear? I seem to recall the Weavers' record was
"The Roving Kind" (and a check of the MCA reissue confirms this), but what
about Mitchell's?Thanks in advance!Peace,
PaulNorm----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: Gay Caballero etc> Norm:
>
> My memory serving, it was Guy Mitchell, aided and abetted by Mitch
> Miller, who recorded "The Fire Ship" (aka "She Had a Dark and a Roving
> Eye"/"One of the Roving Kind") in the 1950s.
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Norm Cohen wrote:
>
> > Gay Caballero is Victor 21735.  I don't have "Fireship" but I'm trying
to
> > track  down the release.
> > Norm Cohen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> > To: <[unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 5:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
> >
> >
> > > Paul:
> > >
> > > Sorry.  I don't.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> > > Date: Sunday, September 28, 2003 9:55 pm
> > > Subject: Re: Christofo Columbo
> > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> > > >
> > > > <<Then there was the Southern Mountain lullaby:
> > > >
> > > > Daddy shot a bear. Daddy shot a bear.
> > > > Shot him through the asshole, never touched a hair.
> > > >
> > > > Ruth Crawford Seeger cleaned it up a bit in one of her collections
> > > > of folk
> > > > songs for children, to read:
> > > > "Shot him through the keyhole, never touched a hair."   How many
> > > > thousandsof kids learn the bowdlerized text, and never learn the
> > > > original?>>
> > > > Yes, but how many kids, having learned the bowdlerized one,
> > > > independentlycome up with the bawdy version among themselves, when
> > > > the grownups aren't
> > > > around, and think it's new?
> > > >
> > > > By the way, Ed, do you have record numbers for the "Fire Ship" and
> > > > "GayCaballero" recordings? (We already have "Barnacle Bill".
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:27:44 +0100
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[Gilderoy]
> A.L. Lloyd was fond of citing this family of tunes as probably
> the most widespread in England, whilst overlooking the fact that
> some members of the family are composed of two parts; an uncommon
> feature among English folksong melodies. This suggests to me that
> the origins of this particular family lie in Ireland, among the
> family of 2 part Gaelic airs which I mentioned in my previous email.*If* your generalization were true, the most it would indicate would
be that some members of the family had been restructured under Irish
influence.  I know somebody who likes to play "Soldier's Joy" in the
freygish scale; it doesn't make it a Yiddish tune, that version is his
invention.  (The second parts added to "Gilderoy" are quite variable
and usually not very original, which argues against them having been
there from the start).But since the oldest members of the "Gilderoy" family were first written
down long before any two-part Irish tune, what evidence is there that
this two-part structure was a constituent of Irish music early enough
to have an influence?There are many two-part dance tunes from England and Scotland as
early as the beginning of the 17th century, and English songs with
multi-part forms are far older - e.g. The Prisoner's Song ("Ar ne
kuthe ic sorghe min") from around 1250, which is a pretty normal
two-part piece you could play in any Irish folk session and have
everybody assume it was by Carolan, or "Worldes Blis" (same period)
with two four-line parts and a two-line tag.  English songs with
choruses go back to the Middle Ages - the Agincourt Carol is a two-
parter.  (Though a quick flip through the literature suggests that
religious songs were much more likely to have choruses than secular
ones).Further, the only Irish music older than the "Gilderoy" family that
we can plausibly claim to know in a reasonably coherent form is harp
tunes of the sixteenth century, which are rhapsodically-structured
things that neither fall into distinct parts nor have much in common
with any present-day folk music from either side of the Irish Sea.So how could you tell that the Gaelic two-part form itself wasn't an
English import?> It's entirely possible of course that some Irish musician adapted
> a pre-existing melody and turned it into the air which we know
> today as Liam Ó Raghaillagh.Is that song about a datable event?  If so, when was it?> But, as far as England is concerned, I think an Irish ancestry for
> Lloyd's family of tunes is more likely than not.How do you propose to get that tune from the west of Ireland into the
general corpus of English folksong by around 1600 without leaving any
written trace of its route of passage?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:24:44 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/31/2003 2:26:51 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      Ref. O'Donoghue's 'The Poets of Ireland':
>      William C Carleton (the Irish-American songwriter), was born
>      in Dublin
>      in 1827, and went to America in his youth. He claimed to be
>      the nephew
>      of William Carleton the novelist (1794-1869), who apparently
>      never left
>      Ireland or wrote any songs.
>
> Thank you. You are thorough!
>
> JOhnMostly on whim, I picked up the reprint of O'Donoghue's 'The Poets of
Ireland' for 2 or 3 dollars. O'Donoghue is carefull to note if his
authors are known to have written songs, and he includes Irish-American
authors.
The book proved to be a lucky investment.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 1 Sep 2003 11:08:41 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> Thank you for this. I need to check in detail but the attribution to
> Boucicault appears to rest on his having included it in a play. There
> are very similar songs, like "Green on the Cape" which clearly
> ante-date the play in question.
>
> The writer William Carleton never went to USA. His writing on Irish
> subjects made him well enough known to warrant the award of a Civil
> List pension of £200 a year. He died in Dublin.
>
> I'm away for the week so any delay in reply will be repaired on my
> return.
>
> JohnThe play for Boucicault's "Wearing of the Green" was 'Arrah na
Pogue', 1865. I think the premier was in Paris.For texts of "The Wearing of the Green" on the Bodleian Ballad
Website we have Harding B 18(476) and Harding B 18(729) sung by
T[homas]. H. Glenny from a production of 'Arrah na Pogue' at
Niblo's Garden (New York). But when we look at the two texts, we
find these aren't even the same song! One is an extension of
Boucicault's song.Another on the Bodleian ballads website, 2806 c.15(254), was sung
by O'Sullivan in 'Arrah na Pogue' at the Theatre Royale, not
further specified (song recognizeably Boucicault's). I don't even
know how many Theatre Royales there were c 1865-70. This one has
a tune direction, "Nearly Sae will we yet" [What's that?][I presume all here know that the tune is James Oswald's "The
Tulip". An ABC from it's original publication is on my website.]Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Shapiro's tune-family thesis
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:11:55 -0700
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Hi Bruce and all,
        I was away for the past week, and returned to find Bruce's Wish posted
on this list.
        There is a copy of Ann Dhu Shapiro's dissertation in the music
library at Berkeley, and I have a photocopy of that.  I believe the late
Prof. Bertrand Bronson had a hand in obtaining it for the library, or
perhaps the author (whose name I believe is now Ann Dhu McLucas) sent
him or the library a copy.  At any rate, there it is.  A bit too late,
but ... -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Applied Research in Folklore
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 2 Sep 2003 01:28:06 -0400
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I have previously cited an article in JAF, by Anne and Norm
Cohen, as giving a very practical scientific methedology for
discovering the best possible 'truth' from a set of accurate
data. Remmber, we can't turn the study of folklore into a
science, but we can profitably use scientic methods to good
purpose in our research into the subject.Scientists, however, are not sufficiently holy that they can
dispense with common trivalities like food and drink, etc, so to
make some money they are some times forced to adopt a different
modus operandi as regards their research. Such research isn't
directed to giving us our best understanding of the data, but,
called 'applied research', is directed at finding how quickly one
can get a 'good' (quick, cheap, practical) desired result. The
crudest approach is no more than a series of 'trial and error'
sequences (and I must admit that some theoretical 'common-sense'
guidance here, no matter how unsophisticated, may facilitate a
more rapid and economical solution).The 'trial and error' approach is sometimes inefficient, but
is itself, is a time honored tradition, so we need not apologize
for citing an example of its effective use. Data gathering for this
project has proceeded as best as could be done in the past, but some
inadequecies are quite obvious, and we have confident expectations of
supplementing the data in the near future.At the click following you will see a little of an early (c
1740), and entirely experimental approach, of A Scots or Irish
lass directed to solving the pressing and practical problem of
finding a penis of adequate fit and function.<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT2.HTM"> find Moreen
in index below, and click again </a>Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Applied Research in Folklore
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 2 Sep 2003 10:18:56 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT2.HTM"> find Moreen
> in index below, and click again </a>
>Sorry. The reference to the wrong tune file for the ABCs has now been
changed to the correct one.Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re: Applied Research in Folklore
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:04:02 -0400
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Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.


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Subject: Re: Applied Research in Folklore
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 2 Sep 2003 13:12:00 -0400
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dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> Let's hear it for the experimental method!
>
> Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>      Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>
>           <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT2.HTM"
>           > find Moreen
>           in index below, and click again </a>
>
>
>
>      Sorry. The reference to the wrong tune file for the ABCs has
>      now been
>      changed to the correct one.
>
>      Bruce Olson
>
>I've used the Irish Moreen/Maureen beecause I haven't found an old Scots
Gaelic title where the correct Morag/Marion is easily recognized. Jack
Campin has more that a little about this and about use of at least one
of our tunes elsewhere.--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Applied Research in Folklore
From: Alan Ackerman <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 2 Sep 2003 18:06:56 -0700
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>Bruce Olson wrote:
>>
>  > <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT2.HTM"> find Moreen
>  > in index below, and click again </a>
>>
>
>Sorry. The reference to the wrong tune file for the ABCs has now been
>changed to the correct one.
>
>Bruce OlsonI've tried eight different browsers -- the songs not there. The page
ends with the line:Tommy Linn, and his wife, and his wifes mothe
--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Applied Research in Folklore
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:20:49 -0400
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Alan Ackerman wrote:
>
> >Bruce Olson wrote:
> >>
> >  > <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT2.HTM"> find Moreen
> >  > in index below, and click again </a>
> >>
> >
> >Sorry. The reference to the wrong tune file for the ABCs has now been
> >changed to the correct one.
> >
> >Bruce Olson
>
> I've tried eight different browsers -- the songs not there. The page
> ends with the line:
>
> Tommy Linn, and his wife, and his wifes mothe
> --
> Alan Ackerman, [unmask]Sorry, I found that I made several errors regarding placement of text in
the file, with clicks-ons from various spellings of corrupt Scots and
Irish Gaelic titles, and have had to make several revisions of the file
today.
I hope I have it correct now, so how about trying again now, and if it
doesn't work for you, let me know here, or via private email, and I'll
try to get it fixed.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Applied Research in Folklore
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 2 Sep 2003 22:51:42 -0400
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Alan Ackerman wrote:
>
> >Bruce Olson wrote:
> >>
> >  > <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT2.HTM"> find Moreen
> >  > in index below, and click again </a>
> >>
> >
> >Sorry. The reference to the wrong tune file for the ABCs has now been
> >changed to the correct one.
> >
> >Bruce Olson
>
> I've tried eight different browsers -- the songs not there. The page
> ends with the line:
>
> Tommy Linn, and his wife, and his wifes mothe
> --
> Alan Ackerman, [unmask]Another report of trouble!  The Moreen/Morag subfile is the 3rd from
the end of the full file, so scroll to end and back up to get there,
while I try to figure out what's wrong.Call is from #MOREENG in index to MOREENG at target (and SEARCH finds
both so spelling is correct) which looks right, but doesn't work. Now I
have to figure out why.Bruce Olson
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Applied Research in Folklore
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:10:59 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Alan Ackerman wrote:
> >> I hope I have it correct now, so how about trying again now, and if it
> doesn't work for you, let me know here, or via private email, and I'll
> try to get it fixed.
>
> Bruce Olson
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> subject index) </a>I made an error in terminating a target name in a section prior to that
of Moreen/Morag, but HTML is a vengeful god that tolerates no errors,
and punishes when he gets the chance. The click-on now works for me, so
for the present he appears to be appeased.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Morag/Moreen
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:36:16 -0400
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Wm. Chappell, PMOT, II, p. 684, says "Touch the Thing" was a vulgar
song with a good tune (Push about the Jorum), so other words were
written for the tune in 'The Golden Pippin', 1773.
Has anyone here seen a copy, or know of a copy of "Touch the thing"?
This is a side issue, because the bawdy song "The Summer Morn" in
the 'Merry Muse of Caledonia' (Legman's ed., p. 49) gives "Push about
the Jorum" as the tune direction, but my main interest is as follows.In Robert Burns' holograph he gives the tune for "The Summer Morn" as
"The Tither Morn" (from Scots Musical Museum, #345), known as "The
Moreen" for Thomas Moore's "The Minstrel Boy" and given from a MS of
1787 as "Moreen" in the Complete Petrie collection, #1067.Do we have another Gaelic tune stemming from "Morag (Scots)/ Moreen
(Irish) the beggar's daughter"?With the most recently collected version (by Jim Carroll) of "Morag
the beggar's daughter" yet to be published, we seem to have a fair
amount of evidence for a purely oral survival of an old bawdy song.
John Moulden knows about an early 20th century Irish version of the
song that I haven't seen, and that one isn't yet in Steve Roud's folk
song index.--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Fw: Chris Powell/Our Goodman, etc.
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 10:15:11 -0500
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Hi folks:This discussion started on another list; I'm forwarding it with the author's
permission.Peace,
Paul----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 12:03 PM
Subject: Chris Powell/Our Goodman, etc.The French Classics label have just reissued the Columbia and Okeh
recordings of Chris Powell and The Five Blue Flames (Classics 5065). This CD
is reviewed by Keith in Blues & Rhythm 182 rather unfavourably and it
certainly contains some dogs, though whether it sets the scene for the
emergence of Ray Conniff as Keith suggests I really cannot say since I have
never knowingly heard Ray Conniff!More interesting from the standpoint of this list is that Last Saturday
Night (14 April 1949, Columbia 30162), as noted by Keith, is a version of
the Child ballad Our Goodman.I have no desire whatever to get involved in arguments about authenticity or
what is or is not folk music, least of all with you lot, but this does
prompt me to ask whether anyone knows of a later recording of a Child ballad
which was not primarily aimed at people who know what a Child ballad is. I
think this formulation avoids the unwanted overtones but I could well be
wrong. There may be dozens for all I know but I can't think of any.For ease of comparison with other versions, I have transcribed the lyrics,
which are as follows. Powell himself claimed composer credit (confirmed from
a scan of the label). The failure of any facilitator to claim a share of the
gravy might be due to even A & R men sometimes having a conscience, but it
might also indicate that the number belonged to Powell's normal repertoire.
It would be fascinating to know the history of its appearance here. We know
from Coley Jones's version that it was in some sense in African-American
tradition.Last Saturday night when I came home, just as high as I could be,
I seen a hat layin' on the rack where my hat's supposed to be.
Well, I said to my wife, my pretty little wife, explain this jive to me,
Tell me what is that hat doin' on the rack where my hat's supposed to be.
She said, "Chris, you fool, you big fat fool, can't you plainly see,
That's nothin' but an old fryin' pan that your mother sent to me."
Well, I've traveled the world for many a mile and I hope to travel some
more,
But I never have seen a frying pan with a hat band in the fore.
And I said, "Mama, hey pretty baby, ooh little mama, explain this jive to
me!"Now, last Saturday night when I came home, just as drunk as I could be,
I seen a head layin' in the bed where my head's supposed to be.
Well, I said to my wife, my pretty little wife, explain this jive to me,
Tell me what is that head doin' in the bed where my head's supposed to be.
She said, "Chris, you fool, you big fat fool, can't you plainly see,
That's nothin' but an old cabbage head that your mother sent to me.
Well, I've traveled the world for many a mile and I hope to travel some
more,
But I have never seen a cabbage head with Vaseline on it before.
And I said, "Mama, hey pretty baby, ooh little mama, explain this jive to
me!"Now, last Saturday night when I came home, just as drunk as I could be,
I seen a leg out from underneath the bed where no leg is supposed to be.
Well, I said to my wife, my pretty little wife, explain this jive to me,
Tell me what is that leg doin' out from under the bed where no leg is
supposed to be.
She said, "Chris, you fool, you big fat fool, can't you plainly see,
That's nothin' but an old antique chair that your mother sent to me."
Well, I've traveled the world for many a mile and I hope to travel some
more,
But I have never seen an antique chair with a seat like that before.Howard Rye
[unmask]
20 Coppermill Lane,
London,
E17 7HB
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

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Subject: Re: Morag/Moreen
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 08:45:16 -0700
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Folks:Has anyone published a text of this purportedly old bawdy song?Ed

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Subject: Re: Morag/Moreen
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:18:12 -0400
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Ed Cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> Has anyone published a text of this purportedly old bawdy song?
>
> EdThere are many. Bibliography and oldest known text given in the file
here: (it may take a minute to load the file)
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw/SONGTXT2.HTM"> find
Moreen/Moarag in index, and click again to go to song file</a>Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Morag/Moreen
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 13:12:32 -0400
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Ed Cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> Has anyone published a text of this purportedly old bawdy song?
>
> EdThe version in Gmelch's 'Tinkers and Travelers', 1975, "Marie
from Gippursland", is, according to Steve Roud's folk song index
(#7269) on a CD recording from 'Musical Traditions', CD 325-6,
"Puck to Appleby". It is sung by the traditional singer, Bill Bryan.I can't find it on Dick G's Camsco Music website.I perhaps stretched it by saying many. There's the mid 19th century text
from Northumberland (on my website); text and fragment in Greig-Duncan
coll'n, #1434; Jolly Weaver in JIFSS (early 20th century), Gmelch's
above; unpublished collected by Jim Carroll.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 12:24:19 -0500
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Back in my youth I was surprised to hear a "folk" version of "Our
Goodman," I knew it as "Wake Up Baby" by Sonny Boy Williamson (Rice
Miller) [Checker 894 @ 1956]. I also recall versions by Blind Lemon
Jefferson ("Laboring Man Away From Home" [unissued 1927]) and Colon
Keel's "The Three Nights Experience" recorded for the Library Of
Congress @[unmask]Meade/Spotswood devotes 16 pages to "country" recordings of British
ballads [5 pages of Child, 11 pages of Laws]. Versions of "Our Goodman"
recorded between 1926 and 1954 include "Three Nights Experience" [Gid
Tanner, Earl Johnson, John Evans, Homer & Jethro]; "Four Nights
Experience" [Thomas C Ashley]; "Five Nights Experience" [Mustard &
Gravy]; "Six Night's Drunk" [Bankston & Henderson]; John The Drunkard
[Carson Robison, Asa Martin]; ""Three Nights In A Bar Room" [Wade
Mainer]. I also seem to recall a version recorded by Bob Wills in the
mid to late 50s but can't put my finger on the specifics at the moment.Cliff OCHELTREE
N. O. LA

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Subject: Re: Morag/Moreen
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 17:01:56 -0400
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Subject: Child Recordings
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 14:48:07 -0700
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Folks:There have been recordings by classical singers attempting what is now
called "crossover" who sang the "Scarlet Town" variant of "Barbara Allen"
(Child 84).  One shudders --Ed

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Subject: Re: Child Recordings
From: Sandy Ives <[unmask]>
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Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:20:29 -0400
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Like John Charles Thomas singing "Lord Randal."
Sandy

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Subject: Preliminary Ebay List - 09/03/03
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 18:36:14 -0400
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Hi!        This is a preliminary list covering the next couple of days. The
full list will appear probably on some time on Friday.        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3547747133 - Folk Tunes From Mississippi by Hudson & Herzog,
1977 reprint, $19.99 (ends Sep-04-03 19:38:30 PDT)        3547864158 - The Seven Seas Shanty Book by Sampson, 1927, $6.99
(ends Sep-05-03 12:26:25 PDT)        3547932342 - Australian Colonial Ballads by Anderson, 1962
edition, $8 (ends Sep-05-03 19:53:49 PDT)        3548089529 - Folk Songs of Old New England by Linscott, 1939,
$9.99 (ends Sep-06-03 15:57:48 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: Child Recordings
From: "Thomas H. Stern" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:14:43 -0400
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Some are not awful, some hideous!
On another track there was the Leonard Warren Sings Sea Shanties.....
I seem to remember that in the notes to one of the early Library of Congress
recordings the point was made that Rebecca Tarwater(?)  was classically
trained (she sang Barbara Allen, if memory serves.)
  Best wishes, Thomas SternEd Cray wrote:> Folks:
>
> There have been recordings by classical singers attempting what is now
> called "crossover" who sang the "Scarlet Town" variant of "Barbara Allen"
> (Child 84).  One shudders --
>
> Ed

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: [unmask]
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Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 19:37:20 EDT
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I recorded "Our Goodman" (under that name)  on my Decca album _Singing Across
the Land_  in 1955;  it's now out of print.  I had learned it in Crockett,
Texas, in about 1932--more than 20 years before recording it.  Lots of my
friends at Crockett High School had seemed to know it.  This was long before I had
heard of Francis James Child,  and we called it "Three Nights Drunk."  The
words were:    The first night when I came home
        As drunk as I could be
    I saw a horse in the stable
        Where my horse sought to be.            I called to my little wife, and said
                "Explain this thing to me;
            How come a horse in the stable there
                Where my horse ought to be?"    "You blind fool! You crazy fool!
        You ignorant fool!" said she.
    "It's nothing but a milk-cow
        My Mama sent home to me."I've roamed the wide world over,
    Of sights I've seen a score,
But a saddle on a milk-cow
    I never had seen before.    The second night when I came home,
        As drunk as I could be.
    I saw a coat on the hanger
        Where my coat ought to be.            I called to my little wife, and said
                "Explain this thing to me;
            How come a coat on the hanger there
                Where my coat ought to be?"    "You blind fool! You crazy fool!
        You ignorant fool!" said she.
    It's nothing but a bed quilt
        My Mama sent home to me."I've roamed the wide world over,
    Of sights I've seen a score,
But a pocket on a bed quilt
    I never had seen before.    The third night when I came home
        As drunk as I could be
    I saw a head on the piller there,
        Where my head ought to be.            I called to my little wife, and said
                "Explain this thing to me;
            How come a head on the piller there
                Where my head ought to be?"    "You blind fool! You crazy fool!;
        You ignorant fool!" said she.
    "It's nothing but a cabbage head
        My Mama sent home to me."I've roamed the wide world over,
    I've sailed from shore to shore,
But a  cabbage-head with a mustache
    I never had seen before.
***********************************
In Crockett, this was not considered a naughty song, but Prof. D. K. Wilgus
at UCLA  knew some even raunchier versions. One was called "FIVE Nights Drunk"
and it became more explicit in each succeeding verse. In one European version
I've read about, the husband impales the supposed cabbage-head on his sword
and presents it to his wife, ordering her to cook it for dinner.Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Child Recordings
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:34:27 -0400
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Thomas H. Stern wrote:
>
> Some are not awful, some hideous!
> On another track there was the Leonard Warren Sings Sea Shanties.....
> I seem to remember that in the notes to one of the early Library of Congress
> recordings the point was made that Rebecca Tarwater(?)  was classically
> trained (she sang Barbara Allen, if memory serves.)
>   Best wishes, Thomas Stern
>
> Ed Cray wrote:
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > There have been recordings by classical singers attempting what is now
> > called "crossover" who sang the "Scarlet Town" variant of "Barbara Allen"
> > (Child 84).  One shudders --
> >
> > EdMy take is listening to recordings of traditional singers, or,
performers that can do the stuff and studied hard to know exactly where
it came from (often going themselves to hear the oldtimers and talk to
them, and look at their 'environment' [From the horse's mouth]).
Classical singers renditions are just good for laughs at what show biz
thinks we are idiots enough to accept as out heritage.Last year there was a production at Ford's Theater in Washington DC,
which was based on old Appalachaian and Bluegrass music. The Washington,
DC, area is loaded with good performers that do it very well, ('normal'
folk and semi-retires from Nashville) and know the background
intimately. Not a one was in that production. I canceled out when I saw
the cast, and their credits for performing in theater productions, and
their acting and music shool credentials.How about some further comments by knowledgeable people here, like Mary
C., and one of our lurkers, S. W.? [I think our lurkers here know more
about what we discuss than we do.]Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:46:43 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> I recorded "Our Goodman" (under that name)  on my Decca album _Singing Across
> the Land_  in 1955;  it's now out of print.  I had learned it in Crockett,
> Texas, in about 1932--more than 20 years before recording it.  Lots of my
> friends at Crockett High School had seemed to know it.  This was long before I had
> heard of Francis James Child,  and we called it "Three Nights Drunk."  The
> words were:
>
>     The first night when I came home
>         As drunk as I could be
>     I saw a horse in the stable
>         Where my horse sought to be.
>
>             I called to my little wife, and said
>                 "Explain this thing to me;
>             How come a horse in the stable there
>                 Where my horse ought to be?"
>
>     "You blind fool! You crazy fool!
>         You ignorant fool!" said she.
>     "It's nothing but a milk-cow
>         My Mama sent home to me."
>
> I've roamed the wide world over,
>     Of sights I've seen a score,
> But a saddle on a milk-cow
>     I never had seen before.
>
>     The second night when I came home,
>         As drunk as I could be.
>     I saw a coat on the hanger
>         Where my coat ought to be.
>
>             I called to my little wife, and said
>                 "Explain this thing to me;
>             How come a coat on the hanger there
>                 Where my coat ought to be?"
>
>     "You blind fool! You crazy fool!
>         You ignorant fool!" said she.
>     It's nothing but a bed quilt
>         My Mama sent home to me."
>
> I've roamed the wide world over,
>     Of sights I've seen a score,
> But a pocket on a bed quilt
>     I never had seen before.
>
>     The third night when I came home
>         As drunk as I could be
>     I saw a head on the piller there,
>         Where my head ought to be.
>
>             I called to my little wife, and said
>                 "Explain this thing to me;
>             How come a head on the piller there
>                 Where my head ought to be?"
>
>     "You blind fool! You crazy fool!;
>         You ignorant fool!" said she.
>     "It's nothing but a cabbage head
>         My Mama sent home to me."
>
> I've roamed the wide world over,
>     I've sailed from shore to shore,
> But a  cabbage-head with a mustache
>     I never had seen before.
> ***********************************
> In Crockett, this was not considered a naughty song, but Prof. D. K. Wilgus
> at UCLA  knew some even raunchier versions. One was called "FIVE Nights Drunk"
> and it became more explicit in each succeeding verse. In one European version
> I've read about, the husband impales the supposed cabbage-head on his sword
> and presents it to his wife, ordering her to cook it for dinner.
>
> Sam Hinton
> La Jolla, CA
> [unmask]If you want some laughs look at rec.music.folk and watch for all the
recurring threads with commentaries on versions of this song, (There's a
thread now), and all the arguments about how many drunken nights there
were, and what happens on what night.Joe Hickerson, in his young and naieve days, planned to study all the
versions of "Our Goodman", but discovered that there was no end to the
data, so it wasn't possible. [Lurking yet, Joe?]Bruce OlsnRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Our Not-so-Goodman
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 3 Sep 2003 20:31:01 -0700
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Folks:Sam Hinton wrote:In Crockett (Texas), this was not considered a naughty song, but Prof. D. K. Wilgus at UCLA  knew some even raunchier versions. One was called "FIVE Nights Drunk" and it became more explicit in each succeeding verse. In one European version I've read about, the husband impales the supposed cabbage-head on his sword and presents it to his wife, ordering her to cook it for dinner.And Ed Cray would humbly ask:Which is the more obscene, the frankly murderous or the frankly suggestive?Ed

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Subject: Re: Child Recordings
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 01:08:16 -0500
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<<There have been recordings by classical singers attempting what is now
called "crossover" who sang the "Scarlet Town" variant of "Barbara Allen"
(Child 84).  One shudders -->>I've heard some of them, not only on "Barbara Allen" but other Child
ballads. I didn't shudder; I screamed. And dove for the radio dial.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 02:12:34 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]><<In Crockett, this was not considered a naughty song, but Prof. D. K.
Wilgus
at UCLA  knew some even raunchier versions. One was called "FIVE Nights
Drunk"
and it became more explicit in each succeeding verse. In one European
version
I've read about, the husband impales the supposed cabbage-head on his sword
and presents it to his wife, ordering her to cook it for dinner.>>Sam, that's interesting. In his notes on the song, A. L. Lloyd asked, "What
ancient tale of trickery and revenge lies behind this jokey song, common all
over Europe and turning up frequently in America and Australia? ... No
struggle takes place; there is no retribution; a joke's a joke and that's
that. Yet somehow in the form and atmosphere of the song, there's a sense of
something beyond the joke, something that suggests important things had
happened before the song begins and that perhaps terrible events may occur
after the song has ended. What is now a comic song may be but a portion of
another ballad, an old and tragic tale of adultery and revenge whose most
formal, most memorable passage has broken off and now lives on as a
burlesque."The version to which Sam refers is the first time I've heard of Lloyd's
"perhaps terrible events" being made explicit.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 06:17:32 EDT
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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Simon Furey <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 13:10:01 +0100
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Chaps,
In fact there's no need for tentative speculation with regard to the age of
the song family of "Our Goodman"; it's extremely old. The song has relatives
in Spain in both the Castilian and Catalan traditions. Colin Smith in his
"Spanish Ballads" (Oxford: Pergamon, 1964 repr 1971) gives a Castilian
version on pp. 197-199 and cites the source as the Cancionero de Romances de
Amberes, dating from approximately 1548. Both the Castilian and Catalan
versions are serious; the returning husband finds a horse in the stable,
discarded weapons, etc. and the wife makes all kinds of feeble excuses for
each item found until she finally admits her guilt and begs for death. Child
makes passing comment on these versions in his notes on no. 274, but fails
to draw out the closeness of the Castilian plot to the English one.
Cheers
Simon----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred McCormick" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Our Goodman> Hi Paul,
>
> By notes, I presume you're talking about record sleeve notes. In fact, the
> piece echoes a passage in Folk Song in England, where Lloyd speculates on
the
> antiquity of various ballads, principally The Outlandish Knight. It's all
very
> tentaive, but you can find it in the chapter on The Big Ballads. Lloyd
seems to
> be drawing most of his ideas from the Hungarian, Lajos Vargyas
>
> Cheers,
>
> Fred McCormick.
>
> In a message dated 04/09/2003 08:14:07 GMT Standard Time,
[unmask]
> writes:
>
>
> >
> > Sam, that's interesting. In his notes on the song, A. L. Lloyd asked,
"What
> > ancient tale of trickery and revenge lies behind this jokey song, common
all
> > over Europe and turning up frequently in America and Australia? ... No
> > struggle takes place; there is no retribution; a joke's a joke and
that's
> > that. Yet somehow in the form and atmosphere of the song, there's a
sense of
> > something beyond the joke, something that suggests important things had
> > happened before the song begins and that perhaps terrible events may
occur
> > after the song has ended. What is now a comic song may be but a portion
of
> > another ballad, an old and tragic tale of adultery and revenge whose
most
> > formal, most memorable passage has broken off and now lives on as a
> > burlesque."
> >
> > The version to which Sam refers is the first time I've heard of Lloyd's
> > "perhaps terrible events" being made explicit.
> >
> > Peace,
> > Paul
> >
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: Child Recordings
From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 09:47:59 -0400
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At 01:08 AM 9/4/03 -0500, you wrote:>I've heard some of them, not only on "Barbara Allen" but other Child
>ballads. I didn't shudder; I screamed. And dove for the radio dial.
>
>Peace,
>PaulSometimes, however, if the guilty singer sites a specific reference that
they based their rendition on, and if that version has an interesting
melody variation or verse, then that can lead one to investigate that
source further and discover some nice versions to study.  A couple of years
ago I heard Custer LaRue's (she's more known for recording with the
Baltimore Consort) "Appalachian" version of The Wife of Usher's Well, and
found I liked a particular way the melody turned, despite inwardly cringing
at her classical (and lovely) voice attempting 1915 versions of ballads
from the southern mountains, Virginia and Kentucky, etc.   She cited Cecil
Sharpe's Southern Appalachian source book and (after recovering) I then
wound up reading through all the various versions he had written down, and
finding some nice things in there because of it.  I then learned a
different version to sing that I liked better than the one I had been
singing.  I guess that's something good.
A musical friend recently told me that his Civil War-era style band had
acquired a new and "fabulous" singer who was performing old ballads with
them, and that her voice was powerfull enough to break windows and that she
was a "professional trained opera singer!"   I wondered why she wasn't
singing opera then, as window glass was a valued commodity back in those
days and not something you'd want to go around breaking willy-nilly and
all.  Then again, he plays a classic c.1910 Fairbanks Whyte Laydie banjo
with a plastic head and steel strings for his "authentic Civil War music"
performances, so to each their own.  -I guess it's ALL got to be better
than William Shatner's "singing" the Beatles' Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds.
Lisa  "We consider that the man who can fiddle all through one of those
  Virginia reels without losing his grip, may be depended upon in any
  kind of emergency."   - Mark Twain
  - Letter to Virginia City Territorial Enterprise, January 1863

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Subject: Fw: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:07:11 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 5:09 AM
Subject: Re: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)on 2/9/03 19:50, Richard Shurman at [unmask] wrote:Also Cabbage Head parts 1 and 2 by Jo Jo Adams on Aristocrat.This is slightlly earlier than Powell's (July 1948), but obviously an
interesting comparison. I have transcribed it:Part 1Well, Monday night when I came home, just as high as I could be,
Well, I saw a hat hanging on the rack where my hat's supposed to be.
I said, "Wake up my wife, my beautiful wife, wake up and answer me,
Tell me whose old hat is that on that rack where my hat's supposed to be?"
She said, "Be shamed you fool, you drunken old fool, well honey can't you
see,
That ain't nothin' but a coffee-pot that your grandpa gave to me."
I said, "I've traveled this world for many a mile and I hope to travel some
more,
But I'll be darned if I ever saw a coffee-pot with a hat band round its
fore."Baby, what can the matter be?
Honey, what you tryin' to do to me?
Darlin', is you tryin' to put me down?
Tell me pretty baby, can't I really stick around?'Cos Tuesday and Wednesday, I got high again, just as high as I could be,
Well, I saw some feet stickin' in the shoes where my feet's supposed to be.
I said, "Wake up my wife, my beautiful wife, wake up and answer me,
Tell me whose old feet is that in them shoes where my feet's supposed to
be?"
She said, "Now you just be shamed you drunken old fool, well honey can't you
see,
That ain't nothin' but an empty pair of shoes that your grandma gave to me."
I said, "Well now listen, I been around this world many times and I hope to
go some more,
But I'll be darned if I ever saw an empty pair of shoes with feet stickin'
in 'em before."Tell me baby, honey what you tryin' to do to me?
Baby, is you tryin' to let me be?
Honey, please don't put me down.
Tell me, pretty baby, that you'll let me stick around.Part 2That night I got high again, just as high as I could be,
Well, then I saw a head layin' in the bed where my head is supposed to be.
I said, "Wake up my wife, my beautiful wife, wake up and answer me,
Tell me whose old head is that in that bed where my head's supposed to be?"
She said, " "Be shamed you fool, you drunken old fool, now honey can't you
see,
That ain't nothin' but a cabbage head that your grandma gave to me."
I said, "I've traveled this world for many miles and I hope to travel some
more,
But I'll be dogged if I ever saw a cabbage head with hair growin' on it
before."Baby, honey, is you tryin' to put me down?
Tell me, tell me, can't I stick around?
Baby, is you trying to let me be?
Tell me pretty baby that you really love me.'Cos Saturday night, I got paid, got just as high as I could be.
Well,  I saw a thing in the thing where my thing's supposed to be.
I said, "Wake up my wife, my beautiful wife, wake up and answer me,
Tell me whose old thing is that in that thing where my thing is supposed to
be?"
"Be shamed you fool,  you drunken old fool, well honey can't you see,
That ain't nothin' but a rollin' pin that your grandpa made for me."
I said, "I've traveled this world for many miles and I hope to travel some
more,
But I'll be darned if I ever saw a rollin' pin with a voutee oreenee
before!"Cabbage Head, Parts 1 & 2, July 1948 (Aristocrat 803).Howard Rye
[unmask]
20 Coppermill Lane,
London,
E17 7HB
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:11:30 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]><<By notes, I presume you're talking about record sleeve notes. In fact, the
piece echoes a passage in Folk Song in England, where Lloyd speculates on
the
antiquity of various ballads, principally The Outlandish Knight. It's all
very
tentaive, but you can find it in the chapter on The Big Ballads. Lloyd seems
to
be drawing most of his ideas from the Hungarian, Lajos Vargyas>>Yes, these were the notes from the album "First Person" (Topic, 1966), for
his Australian version of the song, "Shickered as He Could Be". A lot of the
notes on that LP seem to be recycled from "Folk Song in England".Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Fw: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:14:06 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Andy <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 6:47 AM
Subject: Re: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)Howard,> But I'll be darned if I ever saw a rollin' pin with a voutee oreenee
before!"   Is a 'voutee oreenee' what I think it is?   Andy Cohen

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Subject: Fw: Fw: Child Recordings
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:16:09 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>In a message dated 09/03/03 11:23:06 PM, Ed Craywrites:>Folks:
>
>There have been recordings by classical singers attempting what is now
>
>called "crossover" who sang the "Scarlet Town" variant of "Barbara Allen"
>
>(Child 84).  One shudders --
*******************************
And don't forget Lawrence Tibbett's dreadful rendition of "Edward."Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

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Subject: Fw: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:34:12 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)on 4/9/03 12:47, Andy at [unmask] wrote:Howard,> But I'll be darned if I ever saw a rollin' pin with a voutee oreenee
before!"  Is a 'voutee oreenee' what I think it is?  Andy CohenThese are syllables from Slim Gaillard's nonsense language, vout, and I
think they mean whatever the speaker and listener want them to mean!Around 1946 Gaillard published a Dictionary Of Vout which he claimed to have
distributed to colleges. It seems to be curiously rare and I have never seen
it.Howard Rye
[unmask]
20 Coppermill Lane,
London,
E17 7HB
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

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Subject: Fw: formally trained singers of trad song
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:44:30 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: cwolfe <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 10:25 AM
Subject: formally trained singers of trad songThe most notorious example was Kentuckian Buell Kazee, whohad extensive
voice
lessons and deliberately went into his root dialect to makehis records for
Brunswick.Rebecca Tarwater, from Rockwood, Tennessee, came from a family of fully
traditional singers, and was so when she and her sister recorded for LCV.
Rebecca later married a wealthy businessman and moved to New York, where she
did get formal voice training. (I think she still is there today)Charles Wolfe

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Subject: Re: Child Recordings
From: Scott Utley <[unmask]>
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Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:08:04 -0400
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My father, Francis Utley used to start the Barbara Allen with Jo Stafford
then Burl Ives then Rebecca Tarwater from the 78 collection of AAFSI
Leading the audience to traditional.
I am having trouble finding people to register as exhibitor at AFS
Albequerque
I have lots of good books. Salute to Dolores Nichols and bookfinder.[unmask]----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 9:47 AM
Subject: Re: Child Recordings> At 01:08 AM 9/4/03 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >I've heard some of them, not only on "Barbara Allen" but other Child
> >ballads. I didn't shudder; I screamed. And dove for the radio dial.
> >
> >Peace,
> >Paul
>
>
> Sometimes, however, if the guilty singer sites a specific reference that
> they based their rendition on, and if that version has an interesting
> melody variation or verse, then that can lead one to investigate that
> source further and discover some nice versions to study.  A couple of
years
> ago I heard Custer LaRue's (she's more known for recording with the
> Baltimore Consort) "Appalachian" version of The Wife of Usher's Well, and
> found I liked a particular way the melody turned, despite inwardly
cringing
> at her classical (and lovely) voice attempting 1915 versions of ballads
> from the southern mountains, Virginia and Kentucky, etc.   She cited Cecil
> Sharpe's Southern Appalachian source book and (after recovering) I then
> wound up reading through all the various versions he had written down, and
> finding some nice things in there because of it.  I then learned a
> different version to sing that I liked better than the one I had been
> singing.  I guess that's something good.
> A musical friend recently told me that his Civil War-era style band had
> acquired a new and "fabulous" singer who was performing old ballads with
> them, and that her voice was powerfull enough to break windows and that
she
> was a "professional trained opera singer!"   I wondered why she wasn't
> singing opera then, as window glass was a valued commodity back in those
> days and not something you'd want to go around breaking willy-nilly and
> all.  Then again, he plays a classic c.1910 Fairbanks Whyte Laydie banjo
> with a plastic head and steel strings for his "authentic Civil War music"
> performances, so to each their own.  -I guess it's ALL got to be better
> than William Shatner's "singing" the Beatles' Lucy in the Sky With
Diamonds.
> Lisa
>
>
>
>   "We consider that the man who can fiddle all through one of those
>   Virginia reels without losing his grip, may be depended upon in any
>   kind of emergency."   - Mark Twain
>   - Letter to Virginia City Territorial Enterprise, January 1863

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
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Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:49:48 EDT
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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
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Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Child Recordings
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
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Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Child Recordings
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:46:05 -0500
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On 9/4/03, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[unmask]>
>
>
>
>In a message dated 09/03/03 11:23:06 PM, Ed Craywrites:
>
>>Folks:
>>
>>There have been recordings by classical singers attempting what is now
>>
>>called "crossover" who sang the "Scarlet Town" variant of "Barbara Allen"
>>
>>(Child 84).  One shudders --
>*******************************
>And don't forget Lawrence Tibbett's dreadful rendition of "Edward."I find myself automatically wondering -- what are you people
DOING that you listen to all these things? :-)But there is a flip side of this. Someone mentioned Buell Kazee.
What about Vernon Dalhart -- he actually caused songs to *become*
traditional. In large numbers.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:57:04 -0700
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Paul:Now how is it that a Yiddish word for "drunk," "shickered," has become Australian slang?  Early globilization?Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, September 4, 2003 8:11 am
Subject: Re: Our Goodman> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
>
> <<By notes, I presume you're talking about record sleeve notes. In fact, the
> piece echoes a passage in Folk Song in England, where Lloyd speculates on
> the
> antiquity of various ballads, principally The Outlandish Knight. It's all
> very
> tentaive, but you can find it in the chapter on The Big Ballads. Lloyd seems
> to
> be drawing most of his ideas from the Hungarian, Lajos Vargyas>>
>
> Yes, these were the notes from the album "First Person" (Topic, 1966), for
> his Australian version of the song, "Shickered as He Could Be". A lot of the
> notes on that LP seem to be recycled from "Folk Song in England".
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

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Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Child Recordings
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:59:45 -0700
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> ----- Original Message -----> And don't forget Lawrence Tibbett's dreadful rendition of "Edward."
>
> Sam Hinton
> La Jolla, CA
>Sam:  I have spent six decades trying to forget that, and you have to bring it up.  Which brings us to the Alfred Deller Consort on Vanguard (which should have known better).Ed

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Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Child Recordings
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 15:35:56 -0400
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Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
>
> I find myself automatically wondering -- what are you people
> DOING that you listen to all these things? :-)
>Why can't I say that without getting into trouble.Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re Our Goodman
From: Ewan McVicar <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 4 Sep 2003 19:36:36 -0400
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Somewhere not to hand I have an EP by Sonny Boy Williamson [the Second SBW
I think] with an energetic  blues version of this ballad. If I can locate
it I will post the lyrics.EwanEwan McVicar,
84 High Street
Linlithgow,
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:05:10 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: edward cray <[unmask]><<Now how is it that a Yiddish word for "drunk," "shickered," has become
Australian slang?  Early globilization?>>I once heard it suggested, perhaps by Lloyd (or was it in Robert MacNeil's
book on the English language? Don't remember now) that there was an
emigration of Russian Jews to Australia in the late 19th-early 20th century,
around the time when life for them under the tsar was becoming intolerable.
Much smaller than the emigration to America, but enough to have brought the
word.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Child Recordings
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:07:43 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
-----> And don't forget Lawrence Tibbett's dreadful rendition of "Edward."
>
> Sam Hinton
> La Jolla, CA<<Sam:  I have spent six decades trying to forget that, and you have to
bring it up.  Which brings us to the Alfred Deller Consort on Vanguard
(which should have known better).>>I can picture Seymour Solomon and Maynard Solomon having a long argument
about that, with sales figures finally trumping artistic merit. They
released quite a few of those dreadful things.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 00:24:29 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ewan McVicar <[unmask]><<Somewhere not to hand I have an EP by Sonny Boy Williamson [the Second SBW
I think] with an energetic  blues version of this ballad. If I can locate
it I will post the lyrics.>>"Wake Up Baby" (Checker 894, 1958)If you find it, I do look forward to those lyrics.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 09:35:47 +0100
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>> Now how is it that a Yiddish word for "drunk," "shickered," has
>> become Australian slang?  Early globilization?
> I once heard it suggested, perhaps by Lloyd (or was it in Robert
> MacNeil's book on the English language? Don't remember now) that
> there was an emigration of Russian Jews to Australia in the late
> 19th-early 20th century, around the time when life for them under
> the tsar was becoming intolerable.  Much smaller than the emigration
> to America, but enough to have brought the word.Sidney Baker, in "The Australian Language", suggests it comes from
a now-defunct word for beer, "she-oak", which he gives no etymology
for.  He gives a cite from 1886 for its use in "she-oak net", a
safety net strung under the gangways of ships at the quayside in
Melbourne to catch falling drunks.  Could "she-oak" itself be another
form of the same Yiddish root?1886 seems a bit early for Jewish immigration to Australia to have
got a word into the language but it might just have been possible.Jews in Australia assimilated faster than in the US so there was less
chance for Yiddish words to get into circulation, but even so there
don't seem to be enough of them cited in Baker's book - perhaps he
didn't have enough information about Yiddish to spot them.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:08:30 EDT
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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 05:10:26 EDT
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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:47:23 -0400
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The humour and verse form of "Our Goodman" invites revisions and/or
extension, and there will probably never be an end to them.
There's a long history of doing such.At Child, ESPB, at "Our Goodman" in his Appendix is such a version
commencing "'Twas on Chrismas day", from a slip song of c 1805.That one's by Samuel Arnold, Jr, and was first sung on July 26,
1794, to the tune of "My Daddy's a Delver of Dykes/ The Mucking
of Geordies Byar". It's in Samuel Arnold's 'Auld Robin Gray'.That was three years before Herd's text appeared with a tune from
a traditional singer in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #454, 1797.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:10:08 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> The humour and verse form of "Our Goodman" invites revisions and/or
> extension, and there will probably never be an end to them.
> There's a long history of doing such.
>
> At Child, ESPB, at "Our Goodman" in his Appendix is such a version
> commencing "'Twas on Chrismas day", from a slip song of c 1805.
>
> That one's by Samuel Arnold, Jr, and was first sung on July 26,
> 1794, to the tune of "My Daddy's a Delver of Dykes/ The Mucking
> of Geordies Byar". It's in Samuel Arnold's 'Auld Robin Gray'.
>
> That was three years before Herd's text appeared with a tune from
> a traditional singer in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #454, 1797.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> subject index) </a>I get smart late.The info above was gathered bit by bit over a period of years,
from a number of books.One can get most of it in a few minutes by searching for 'Twas on
Christmas Day" in EASMES on its website.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Child Recordings
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:35:29 -0400
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Paul Stamler wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> -----
>
> > And don't forget Lawrence Tibbett's dreadful rendition of "Edward."
> >
> > Sam Hinton
> > La Jolla, CA
>
> <<Sam:  I have spent six decades trying to forget that, and you have to
> bring it up.  Which brings us to the Alfred Deller Consort on Vanguard
> (which should have known better).>>
>
> I can picture Seymour Solomon and Maynard Solomon having a long argument
> about that, with sales figures finally trumping artistic merit. They
> released quite a few of those dreadful things.
>
> Peace,
> PaulI was once shocked when a Scots descent friend of mine came back came
back from a vist to Scotland and described a evening of entertainment in
which there were several dramatic readings of old Scots ballads. He was
a bit surprised, and probably doubtful, when I told him that some people
sing them.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 08:03:01 -0700
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Folks:This pleasant exchange underscores an argument I have long made (to the deaf ears of the folk song revivalists) that one cannot truly study folk song in isolation from folklore in general.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Date: Friday, September 5, 2003 1:35 am
Subject: Re: Our Goodman> >> Now how is it that a Yiddish word for "drunk," "shickered," has
> >> become Australian slang?  Early globilization?
> > I once heard it suggested, perhaps by Lloyd (or was it in Robert
> > MacNeil's book on the English language? Don't remember now) that
> > there was an emigration of Russian Jews to Australia in the late
> > 19th-early 20th century, around the time when life for them under
> > the tsar was becoming intolerable.  Much smaller than the emigration
> > to America, but enough to have brought the word.
>
> Sidney Baker, in "The Australian Language", suggests it comes from
> a now-defunct word for beer, "she-oak", which he gives no etymology
> for.  He gives a cite from 1886 for its use in "she-oak net", a
> safety net strung under the gangways of ships at the quayside in
> Melbourne to catch falling drunks.  Could "she-oak" itself be another
> form of the same Yiddish root?
>
> 1886 seems a bit early for Jewish immigration to Australia to have
> got a word into the language but it might just have been possible.
>
> Jews in Australia assimilated faster than in the US so there was less
> chance for Yiddish words to get into circulation, but even so there
> don't seem to be enough of them cited in Baker's book - perhaps he
> didn't have enough information about Yiddish to spot them.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <" target="l">http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance
> data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
> ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <-
> --
>

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Subject: Fw: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:20:12 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Spottswood <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)Re: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)"Voutee Orenne" was a scat phrase circulated by
the comic Slim Gaillard.  Looks like a pretty good version!I like "Old Man Crip," sung in English by the Jolly Boys of Lafayette (Decca
1937), wherein the drunken husband deals with "headlights on a baby
carriage, I never seen before."

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 4 Sep 2003 (#2003-53)
From: Dan Goodman <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 10:57:12 -0500
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  > Date:    Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:57:04 -0700
> From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Our Goodman
>
> Paul:
>
> Now how is it that a Yiddish word for "drunk," "shickered," has become Australian slang?  Early globilization?Date:    Thu, 4 Sep 2003 11:57:04 -0700
From:    edward cray <[unmask]>
Subject: Re: Our GoodmanPaul:Now how is it that a Yiddish word for "drunk," "shickered," has become
Australian slang?  Early globilization? From http://www.sbs.com.au/radio/yiddish/community.htmlBack in 1788, it's believed 14 Jews were among the convicts on the First
Fleet which arrived in Botany Bay south of present-day Sydney. Yiddish
speakers began to arrive in greater numbers following the discovery of
gold in the 1850s.--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://dsgood.blogspot.com or
http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
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Subject: Re: Fw: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)
From: [unmask]
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In a message dated 09/05/03 8:21:49 AM, [unmask] writes:>I like "Old Man Crip," sung in English by the Jolly Boys of Lafayette (Decca
>1937), wherein the drunken husband deals with "headlights on a baby
>carriage, I never seen before."
*******************************
There was a version that was made up in New York during the great Folksong
Boom of the 50s and 60's (The great Folksong Scare" , in the words of U. Utah
Phillips), in which the wife says that "a pair of pants" on the chair was
actually a "prayer shawl,"  but the suspicious husband had never seen a "prayer
shawl with a zipper!"Sam
La Jolla, CA

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 11:12:36 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: Our Goodman>> Now how is it that a Yiddish word for "drunk," "shickered," has
>> become Australian slang?  Early globilization?<<Sidney Baker, in "The Australian Language", suggests it comes from
a now-defunct word for beer, "she-oak", which he gives no etymology
for.  He gives a cite from 1886 for its use in "she-oak net", a
safety net strung under the gangways of ships at the quayside in
Melbourne to catch falling drunks.  Could "she-oak" itself be another
form of the same Yiddish root?>>"She-oak" also shows up in another traditional Australian song, "The
Drover's Dream":"Then the parrots green and blue sang 'Bold Jack Donahue'
The frilly lizards waltzed 'round with a smile
'Til from out the old she-oak a laughing-jackass spoke
And spare me happy days, they run a mile"Sounds like a plant or a bush to me, not beer. A she-oak net could
conceivably be a net woven from the plant, and its use in catching drunks
may have led to its use to mean beer. But 'shickered' is such a direct
borrowing from Yiddish that I'd be inclined to say "she-oak" is a
coincidence, unrelated.All speculation of course.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Mary Cliff <[unmask]>
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What a great discussion.  It's like a seminar in slo-mo.  And i have no
credentials to jump in, but here goes...
If my library were computerized, i'd be able to find such things, but i'm
still trusting my feeble brain.  Some songs are probably hideous, but i
just listen to them with different ears.  8-)I deal with both classical and folk musics daily at WETA.   On the one
hand, i'm pleased when "art song" incorporates folk material; i think it's
a healthy thing and a recognition of a different kind of cultural
continuity than you usually find on the concert stage (except in the
African-American spiritual tradition)  Such things usually make me smile
-- for that cultural continuity thing -- and because the songs usually
sound as if they've been put in a straightjacket, which i find somewhat
amusing.  (i find a LOT of things amusing these days)  And the favor is
sometimes returned.  How many "folk" versions of Summertime have we heard?
 Buddy, Can You Spare a Dime?  Bantock's Song to the Seals -- okay, he
claimed to have adapted that from a folk context.This discussion reminded me of some of my favorites, and Dr. John is
playing in the background.  On his "Going Back to New Orleans" CD, he
includes a couple gems, all with roots (to his experience) in New Orleans.
 He refers to "Didn't He Ramble" as being a long-time song there, his
notes referring to "livin and dyin, gamblin and murder and whorin,
messed-up love affairs, real stuff," all either stated or implied in that
song.    So how, pray tell, did The Derby Ram morph into "Didn't He
Ramble?"  He credits the song to Hatty Bolton.And the song "Cabbage Head" is referred to as "more of a country story ...
country bumpkin lyrics."  Professor Longhair did it, Sonny Boy Williamson,
and Dr. John's own grandpa....   But wouldn't you know, in New Orleans of
all places, the whole pattern of DRUNK is gone.   "Last night i come home/
tired as a man can be..."  The mule is there, the hat, and some guy
(nothin but a shadow).  Dr. John shares the author's credit here with
Professor Longhair.It's been amazing to see how many performers from the pop world are "going
back" and recording roots songs, yes, including the old ballads.  But i
haven't heard a concert setting of "O Death" yet.   ooo, just the idea of
that hurts.I'll go back to lurking now.Mary Cliff, TRADITIONS
WETA Radio
Washington, DC

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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:19:56 EDT
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Subject: Re: Fw: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)
From: [unmask]
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Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:30:31 EDT
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In a message dated 09/05/03 8:21:49 AM, [unmask] writes:>I like "Old Man Crip," sung in English by the Jolly Boys of Lafayette (Decca
>1937), wherein the drunken husband deals with "headlights on a baby
>carriage, I never seen before."
*******************************
There was a version that was made up in New York during the great Folksong
Boom of the 50s and 60's (The great Folksong Scare" , in the words of U. Utah
Phillips), in which the wife says that "a pair of pants" on the chair was
actually a "prayer shawl,"  but the suspicious husband had never before seen a
"prayer shawl with a zipper!" ( I
think the song used the Yiddish or Hebrew word for a "prayer shawl,"  but I
can't remember it this morning"! )Sam
La Jolla, CA

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 4 Sep 2003 (#2003-53)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:39:28 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Goodman <[unmask]><< From http://www.sbs.com.au/radio/yiddish/community.htmlBack in 1788, it's believed 14 Jews were among the convicts on the First
Fleet which arrived in Botany Bay south of present-day Sydney. Yiddish
speakers began to arrive in greater numbers following the discovery of
gold in the 1850s.>>I'd put my bet on the gold rush immigrants rather than the First Fleet
folks; they'd presumably have been English-, not Yiddish-speaking, as
Yiddish was mostly spoken by Central Eastern Europeans. Obvious exceptions,
of course, but that's what I'd bet.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:42:16 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]><<Curiously enough, nobody yet seems to have mentioned Coley Jones' version
of
Our Goodman, The Drunkard's Special, which he recorded in Dallas in 1929.>>I believe he was talked about in the very first posting, and we've ignored
him as old news since then.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Fw: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 13:45:16 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Our Goodman (Jo Jo Adams)<<There was a version that was made up in New York during the great Folksong
Boom of the 50s and 60's (The great Folksong Scare" , in the words of U.
Utah
Phillips), in which the wife says that "a pair of pants" on the chair was
actually a "prayer shawl,"  but the suspicious husband had never before seen
a
"prayer shawl with a zipper!" ( I
think the song used the Yiddish or Hebrew word for a "prayer shawl,"  but I
can't remember it this morning"! )>>"Tallis", as in "Fantasia on a Theme of".Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Ebay List - 09/05/03
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 15:24:07 -0400
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Hi!        As promised, here is the weekly list. It is quite long (may be 2
postings) and growing by the minute. For example, there were no
songsters two days and four have been listed in the last 24 hours.        SONGSTERS        2187941246 - The Coon Exterminator, or, Polk, Dallas, and Shunk
Songster, 1844, $50 (ends Sep-10-03 10:00:00 PDT) (live auction)        3549362306 - The Teddy Regan Songster, 1861, $6.01 (ends
Sep-11-03 09:06:20 PDT)        2556327903 - MCGINTY SONGSTER, 18??, $9.99 (ends Sep-11-03
14:15:30 PDT)        2190749076 - DUPREZ'S Famous Minstrels Songster, 1900?, $3 (ends
Sep-14-03 11:45:10 PDT)        2190750267 - FOREPAUGH'S SONGSTER, 1905?, $3 (ends Sep-14-03
11:51:02 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3548107952 - WHERE IS SAINT GEORGE? Pagan Imagery in English
Folksong by Stewart, 1988, $3 (ends Sep-06-03 18:22:52 PDT)        3548127532 - STEAMBOATIN' DAYS, Folk Songs of the River Packet
Era by Wheeler, 1944, $9.99 (ends Sep-06-03 20:34:08 PDT)        3239762133 - THE FENIAN SONG BOOK, 1940?, $9.99 (ends Sep-07-03
08:49:13 PDT)        3548313665 - Irish Street Ballads by O Lochlainn, 1965 printing,
$6 (ends Sep-07-03 12:59:33 PDT)        3548372013 - English Ballads by Johnson, 1894, $9.99 (ends
Sep-07-03 17:34:11 PDT)        3548377864 - Checklist of California Folk Songs Part One, Texts
in Print, 1940, $9 (ends Sep-07-03 18:00:42 PDT)        3548379201 - Many A Good Horseman Traditional Music Making in
Mid Suffolk by Howson, 1985, $9 (ends Sep-07-03 18:05:23 PDT)        3548384091 - Singing Island; a collection of English and Scots
Folksongs by MacColl & Seeger, 1960, $9 (ends Sep-07-03 18:26:12 PDT)        3548389266 - Rowlock Rhymes and Songs of Exile by "North
Antrim", edited by Sam Henry, 1933, $12, (ends Sep-07-03 18:46:46 PDT)        3548392823 - The Convict Maid, Early Broadsides Relating to
Australia by Edwards, 1985, $9.99 (ends Sep-07-03 19:01:23 PDT)        3548407959 - Cowboy Songs of the Open Range by Sires, 1928, $19
(ends Sep-07-03 20:07:18 PDT)        3548436676 - THE MINSTRELSY OF THE SCOTTISH HIGHLANDS by
Moffat, $10 AU, (ends Sep-08-03 00:46:54 PDT)        3548453831 - Ballads & Songs from Utah by Hubbard, 1961, $19
(ends Sep-08-03 04:37:21 PDT)        3548580227 - Singing Family of the Cumberlands by Ritchie, 1955,
$0.99 (ends Sep-08-03 14:37:33 PDT)        3548590401 - NEW GREEN MOUNTAIN SONGSTER TRADITIONAL FOLK SONGS
OF VERMONT by Flanders, Ballard, Brown & Brown, 1966 reprint, $4.99
(ends Sep-08-03 15:38:25 PDT)        2555661171 - NEGRO SONGS FROM ALABAMA by Courlander, 1963, $9.99
(ends nds Sep-09-03 19:58:46 PDT)        3240704268 - The Negro and His Folklore in Nineteenth-Century
Periodicals by Jackson, 1967, $4.99 (ends Sep-10-03 05:04:03 PDT)        2555684260 - Irish Com-All-Ye's and Ballads of Ireland, 1901, $5
(ends Sep-10-03 17:00:00 PDT)        3549266161 - The Folk Carol of England by Brice, 1967, $14 (ends
Sep-11-03 05:57:49 PDT)        3549277209 - Ballads and Sea Songs of Newfoundland by Greenleaf,
1968 reprint, $29 (ends Sep-11-03 06:23:02 PDT)        2555305536 - Folk Songs Of The Southern Appalachians by Ritchie,
1965, $5.99 (ends Sep-11-03 08:47:35 PDT)        2556386190 - Chantez Encore Folksongs Of French South Louisiana
by Gilmore, 1991, $7.50 (ends Sep-11-03 18:09:40 PDT)        That's it for now! I more items which close on 9/12-15 including
a complete Dover set of Child. These will be in the next list.                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Sameness of tunes
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:52:10 -0500
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Hi,
Ironically in view of the theme of the thread, Lannigan's Ball like many
songs in Tony Pastor's repertoire was from the repertoire of Harry Clifton
the British Music Hall artiste who wrote several songs which have been
collected as traditional. The writer of the words was in fact D.K. Gavan,
the Galway poet, who also wrote the words to The Rocky Road to Dublin.
Unfortunately who wrote the tunes is not as clear. If anyone wants furthe
info on Harry Clifton and his songs I have copies of most of his original
sheet music.

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Subject: Convict-Exiles
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 14:08:01 -0700
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Folks:Dan Goodman notes that the first shipment of convict-exiles to Australia included 14 Jews.  At least they had a minyan.Ed

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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Mary Cliff <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 5 Sep 2003 12:17:24 -0400
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What a great discussion.  It's like a seminar in slo-mo.  And i have no
credentials to jump in, but here goes...
If my library were computerized, i'd be able to find such things, but i'm
still trusting my feeble brain.  Some songs are probably hideous, but i
just listen to them with different ears.  8-)I deal with both classical and folk musics daily at WETA.   On the one
hand, i'm pleased when "art song" incorporates folk material; i think it's
a healthy thing and a recognition of a different kind of cultural
continuity than you usually find on the concert stage (except in the
African-American spiritual tradition)  Such things usually make me smile
-- for that cultural continuity thing -- and because the songs usually
sound as if they've been put in a straightjacket, which i find somewhat
amusing.  (i find a LOT of things amusing these days)  And the favor is
sometimes returned.  How many "folk" versions of Summertime have we heard?
 Buddy, Can You Spare a Dime?  Bantock's Song to the Seals -- okay, he
claimed to have adapted that from a folk context.This discussion reminded me of some of my favorites. On Dr. John's "Going
Back to New Orleans" CD, he includes some gems, all with roots (to his
experience) in New Orleans.  He says "Didn't He Ramble" is long-time song
there, his notes referring to "livin and dyin, gamblin and murder and
whorin, messed-up love affairs, real stuff," all either stated or implied
in that song.    So how, pray tell, did The Derby Ram morph into "Didn't
He Ramble?"  He credits the song to Hatty Bolton.And the song "Cabbage Head" is referred to as "more of a country story ...
country bumpkin lyrics."  Professor Longhair did it, Sonny Boy Williamson,
and Dr. John's own grandpa....   But wouldn't you know, in New Orleans of
all places, the whole pattern of DRUNK is gone.   "Last night i come home/
tired as a man can be..."  The mule is there, the hat, and some guy
(nothin but a shadow).  Dr. John shares the author's credit here with
Professor Longhair.It's been amazing to see how many performers from the pop world are "going
back" and recording roots songs, yes, including the old ballads.  But i
haven't heard a concert setting of "O Death" yet.   ooo, just the idea of
that sets my teeth on edge.I'll go back to lurking now.Mary Cliff, TRADITIONS
WETA Radio
Washington, DC

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: [unmask]
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Date:Sat, 6 Sep 2003 06:25:53 EDT
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Subject: Re: Re Our Goodman
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>
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Date:Sat, 6 Sep 2003 10:11:42 EDT
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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:28:56 -0400
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Steve Gardham wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Ironically in view of the theme of the thread, Lannigan's Ball like many
> songs in Tony Pastor's repertoire was from the repertoire of Harry Clifton
> the British Music Hall artiste who wrote several songs which have been
> collected as traditional. The writer of the words was in fact D.K. Gavan,
> the Galway poet, who also wrote the words to The Rocky Road to Dublin.
> Unfortunately who wrote the tunes is not as clear. If anyone wants furthe
> info on Harry Clifton and his songs I have copies of most of his original
> sheet music.When, how, and where are we going to find out what you've learned from
those song sheets?Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: steve gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:01:28 +0100
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Hi,Bruce,
I hope to publish eventually, but at the moment I have lots of other
projects in the pipeline, mainly concerning broadside ballads and their
links with folk which I know from your marvellous website is your subject
too. At the moment I'm working on a manuscript book of ballads written out
by a young girl in 1877, hopefully for publication. Meanwhile I could post a
list of Harry Clifton's songs on the Indiana chatroom, or at least those
that have folk connections. I'm also very interested in those ballads which
were burlesqued in the early 19th c such as Lord Lovell & Villikins.
Cheers, Steve.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Olson" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes> Steve Gardham wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > Ironically in view of the theme of the thread, Lannigan's Ball like many
> > songs in Tony Pastor's repertoire was from the repertoire of Harry
Clifton
> > the British Music Hall artiste who wrote several songs which have been
> > collected as traditional. The writer of the words was in fact D.K.
Gavan,
> > the Galway poet, who also wrote the words to The Rocky Road to Dublin.
> > Unfortunately who wrote the tunes is not as clear. If anyone wants
furthe
> > info on Harry Clifton and his songs I have copies of most of his
original
> > sheet music.
>
> When, how, and where are we going to find out what you've learned from
> those song sheets?
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> subject index) </a>
>

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Subject: Sameness of tunes
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 13:05:19 -0500
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Talking of Irish poets does anyone know anything about D.K.Gavan, the
Galway poet, who is credited with Lannigans Ball and The Rocky Road to
Dublin on the Clifton sheet music?

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Subject: John Greenway's dissertation
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
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Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 12:04:44 -0700
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Ed and others:
Does anyone happen to have a copy of John Greenway's doctoral diss. on
protest songs?  (I don't need the book version that he published).
Apparently U Penn doesn't have any copies, because after he turned
conservative John went to the library and destroyed all the copies they had.
Anyone else ever get a copy?
Norm Cohen

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Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation
From: "Cohen, Ronald" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:32:44 -0500
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Norm: I am thinking that Kenny Goldstein might have had a copy, which might be in his papers, wherever they are. Kenny was a close friend of Greenway, even after his political transformation. Or ask Roger Abrahams if he knows anything. ron cohen-----Original Message-----
From:   Norm Cohen [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent:   Sun 9/7/2003 2:04 PM
To:     [unmask]
Cc:	
Subject:        John Greenway's dissertationEd and others:
Does anyone happen to have a copy of John Greenway's doctoral diss. on
protest songs?  (I don't need the book version that he published).
Apparently U Penn doesn't have any copies, because after he turned
conservative John went to the library and destroyed all the copies they had.
Anyone else ever get a copy?
Norm Cohen

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Subject: Tacoma Park news
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:33:29 -0400
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New briefs, 7/09/03
Today, 11 AM to 6 PM was Tacoma Park Folk Festival, (northern
suburb of Washinton DC) and tidbits picked up there noted at * below.
More real folk than ever if you knew where to look. E. g.,
Joe Hickerson and his successor Peggy Bulmer, and members of the current
staff of Library of Congress Folklore Archive gave samples both from old
field recordings and theb staff  member's own talented rendictions of LC
material.*Joe Hickerson (ethnomusicologist, and c 35 year head of Library of
Congress Folklore Archive) told me today, for the 3rd time in 2
years that he would eventally join Ballad-L.
Ethnomusicologist Anne Dhu McLucas has joined Ballad-L, but is
off to Wales for a week or so.
*Mary Cliff was still a volunteer stage manager until about 5
minutes ago. We only reviewed a few recent things on Ballad-L,
and she lead me to believe I may not get booted off Ballad-L for
expressing some opinions that proved unpopular here.
*Carly Gewirtz (folklorist, once conn
ected to Norm Cohen in Los Angeles) is now a lurker here, because her
husband, Ballad-L member Dean Clamons has got her set up on a computer
at home.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: (no subject)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 18:47:15 -0400
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New briefs, 7/09/03
Today, 11 AM to 6 PM was the Tacoma Park Folk Festival, (northern
suburb of Washinton DC) and tidbits picked up there noted at * below.
More real folk than ever if you knew where to look. E. g.,
Joe Hickerson and his successor Peggy Bulmer, and members of the current
staff of Library of Congress Folklore Archive gave samples both from old
field recordings and their own talented rendicions of LC material.*Joe Hickerson (ethnomusicologist, and c 35 year head of Library of
Congress Folklore Archive) told me today, for the 3rd time in 2
years that he would eventally join Ballad-L.
Ethnomusicologist Anne Dhu McLucas has joined Ballad-L, but is tied up
with other concerns at present.
*Mary Cliff was a volunteer stage manager until about 6PM (after I
left). We only reviewed a few recent things on Ballad-L,
and she lead me to believe I may not get booted off Ballad-L for
expressing some opinions that proved unpopular here.
*Carly Gewirtz (folklorist, once conected to Norm Cohen in Los
Angeles) is now a lurker here, because her husband, Ballad-L
member Dean Clamons, has got her set up on a computer at home.Missed you D&D Nichols. Juveniles turned up at the FSGW Open Sing last
Friday night, so I had to jettison my plans to sing "Marie
from Gippursland".Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Gossip
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:03:52 -0400
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New briefs, 7/09/03
Today, 11 AM to 6 PM was Tacoma Park Folk Festival, (northern
suburb of Washinton DC) and tidbits picked up there are noted at *
below.
More real folk than ever there if you knew where to look. E. g.,
Joe Hickerson and his successor Peggy Bulmer, and members of the current
staff of Library of Congress Folklore Archive gave samples both from old
(some bordering on ancient) field recordings and their own talented
rendictions of LC material. [Carpenter collection prominantly mentioned,
but no recordered examples given. Julia Bishop gave cuirrent status
account of progress on restoring Carpenter coll'n disks on the JISC
ballad list, as some here have seen, In Carpenter are recorded versions
from singers in Greig-Duncan collection.]*Joe Hickerson (ethnomusicologist, and c 35 year head of Library of
Congress Folklore Archive) told me today, for the 3rd time in 2
years that he would eventally join Ballad-L.
Ethnomusicologist Anne Dhu McLucas has joined Ballad-L, but is
elsewhere committed at present.
*Mary Cliff was still a volunteer stage manager until I left.
We only reviewed a few recent things on Ballad-L, and she lead me to
believe I may not get booted off Ballad-L for expressing some opinions
that proved unpopular here.
*Carly Gewirtz (folklorist, once connected to Norm Cohen in Los
Angeles) is now a lurker here, because her husband, Ballad-L
member Dean Clamons has got her set up on a computer at home.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Tacoma Park news with a wee correction
From: Nancy-Jean Seigel <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:04:52 EDT
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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:22:36 -0400
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steve gardham wrote:
>
> ... At the moment I'm working on a manuscript book of ballads written out
> by a young girl in 1877, hopefully for publication. Meanwhile I could post a
> list of Harry Clifton's songs on the Indiana chatroom, or at least those
> that have folk connections. I'm also very interested in those ballads which
> were burlesqued in the early 19th c such as Lord Lovell & Villikins.
> Cheers, Steve.I know nothing about the about the origins of "Lord Lovel". I recently
saw commentary on 'Villikens' that shattered all that I though I knew
about it.>
> > > collected as traditional. The writer of the words was in fact D.K.
> Gavan,
> > > the Galway poet, who also wrote the words to The Rocky Road to Dublin.
> > > Unfortunately who wrote the tunes is not as clear. If anyone wants
> furthe
> > > info on Harry Clifton and his songs I have copies of most of his
> original
> > > sheet music.
> >All completely new info to me, and beyond what I thought I knew.
Blessings, and please tell us more.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: (no subject)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 19:42:42 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> New briefs, 7/09/03Groan, I don't know where my final version of a proofread and extended
version of my post above disappeared. Since the posted one isn't totally
garbled, I guess I' better let it stand as is (The Irish have a Gaelic
tune title that boils down to "Let it be".
Of two additions, I now remember only that I missed seeing our list
members D&D Nichols.Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:52:50 -0700
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Steve:Post away.  And if you are looking for a permanent archive for your papers, let me know.  A small group of us are working towards an online folksong journal.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: steve gardham <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, September 7, 2003 11:01 am
Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes> Hi,Bruce,
> I hope to publish eventually, but at the moment I have lots of other
> projects in the pipeline, mainly concerning broadside ballads and their
> links with folk which I know from your marvellous website is your subject
> too. At the moment I'm working on a manuscript book of ballads written out
> by a young girl in 1877, hopefully for publication. Meanwhile I could post a
> list of Harry Clifton's songs on the Indiana chatroom, or at least those
> that have folk connections. I'm also very interested in those ballads which
> were burlesqued in the early 19th c such as Lord Lovell & Villikins.
> Cheers, Steve.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Olson" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 10:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
>
>
> > Steve Gardham wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > Ironically in view of the theme of the thread, Lannigan's Ball like many
> > > songs in Tony Pastor's repertoire was from the repertoire of Harry
> Clifton
> > > the British Music Hall artiste who wrote several songs which have been
> > > collected as traditional. The writer of the words was in fact D.K.
> Gavan,
> > > the Galway poet, who also wrote the words to The Rocky Road to Dublin.
> > > Unfortunately who wrote the tunes is not as clear. If anyone wants
> furthe
> > > info on Harry Clifton and his songs I have copies of most of his
> original
> > > sheet music.
> >
> > When, how, and where are we going to find out what you've learned from
> > those song sheets?
> >
> > Bruce Olson
> >
> > Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> > and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> > http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> > subject index)
> >
>

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Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:00:57 -0700
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Norm:I didn't know that John "disowned" his thesis so severely that he pirated the library copy.  (Or is it a legend?)  After all, he did publish it as _American Folksongs of Protest._  Hard to sieze all the copies in print.I wonder if Eleanor Long had a copyof the thesis.  I am pretty sure that D.K. did and that Eleanor inherited it.  If not, then Alan Dundes might.  And try the Archive of Folk Culture.EdP.S.  Note how Wilgus takes Greenway apart on pp. 229-232 of _Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship._----- Original Message -----
From: "Cohen, Ronald" <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, September 7, 2003 2:32 pm
Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation> Norm: I am thinking that Kenny Goldstein might have had a copy, which
> might be in his papers, wherever they are. Kenny was a close friend of
> Greenway, even after his political transformation. Or ask Roger Abrahams
> if he knows anything. ron cohen
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   Norm Cohen [[unmask]]
> Sent:   Sun 9/7/2003 2:04 PM
> To:     [unmask]
> Cc:
> Subject:        John Greenway's dissertation
>
> Ed and others:
> Does anyone happen to have a copy of John Greenway's doctoral diss. on
> protest songs?  (I don't need the book version that he published).
> Apparently U Penn doesn't have any copies, because after he turned
> conservative John went to the library and destroyed all the copies they had.
> Anyone else ever get a copy?
> Norm Cohen
>

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Subject: Re: Tacoma Park news
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 17:03:51 -0700
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List Mother:Bruce's message reminds me I wanted to suggest that we publish the names of the ballad-l subscribers.Those lurkers wishing anonymity could opt out.  Just like we do for the bankjs, insurance companies and telephone solicitors.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Date: Sunday, September 7, 2003 3:33 pm
Subject: Tacoma Park news> New briefs, 7/09/03
> Today, 11 AM to 6 PM was Tacoma Park Folk Festival, (northern
> suburb of Washinton DC) and tidbits picked up there noted at * below.
> More real folk than ever if you knew where to look. E. g.,
> Joe Hickerson and his successor Peggy Bulmer, and members of the current
> staff of Library of Congress Folklore Archive gave samples both from old
> field recordings and theb staff  member's own talented rendictions of LC
> material.
>
> *Joe Hickerson (ethnomusicologist, and c 35 year head of Library of
> Congress Folklore Archive) told me today, for the 3rd time in 2
> years that he would eventally join Ballad-L.
> Ethnomusicologist Anne Dhu McLucas has joined Ballad-L, but is
> off to Wales for a week or so.
> *Mary Cliff was still a volunteer stage manager until about 5
> minutes ago. We only reviewed a few recent things on Ballad-L,
> and she lead me to believe I may not get booted off Ballad-L for
> expressing some opinions that proved unpopular here.
> *Carly Gewirtz (folklorist, once conn
> ected to Norm Cohen in Los Angeles) is now a lurker here, because her
> husband, Ballad-L member Dean Clamons has got her set up on a computer
> at home.
>
>
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> subject index)
>

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Subject: Re: Tacoma Park news with a wee correction
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 20:24:10 -0400
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Nancy-Jean Seigel wrote:
>
> For anyone who was confused, that was Peggy Bulger from the American
> Folklife Center.  A slip of the Bruce's finger and it came out
> "Bulmer".
>
> We know who you are Peggy.  The rest of you should have been there
> when she led the audience in "Now the meeting is over". The roof of
> the gym nearly blew off.
>
> Nancy-Jean SeigelThanks for the corrction Nancy-Jean. The name was in the Program which I
lost before I got home.Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re: Tacoma Park news
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:16:36 -0400
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edward cray wrote:
>
> List Mother:
>
> Bruce's message reminds me I wanted to suggest that we publish the names of the ballad-l subscribers.
>
> Those lurkers wishing anonymity could opt out.  Just like we do for
> the bankjs, insurance companies and telephone solicitors>Opting out complicates things.I thought the present system on LISTSERV (no list of subscribers, as on
our old majordomo server) awkward at first, but I've changed my mind. We
get poster's email addresses on their postings here. Lurkers can't post
here annonymously, and may have valid reasons why they don't want their
e-mail address known generally known. I'd like to know who all the
lurkers are, but that doesn't seem to me to be as important as
protecting them for whatever the reason they want to be lurkers. The
resent status doesn't cause the posters any difficulty that I can see.Whether sound or ridiculous, I take my postings here to be readily
available to anyone who wants to look at them.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Lurkers
From: Jon Bartlett <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:13:39 -0700
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I take great pleasure in reading all the posts, and when I have something to
contribute, I'll write (the same as I do to the papers and magazines I
subscribe to).  I have no problem with publishing the list - I seem to
remember that when I joined I had access to it.However...I would greatly appreciate replacing the vile word "lurker" with something
gentler - howzabout "reader"?Jon Bartlett

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Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 7 Sep 2003 21:32:22 -0700
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Thanks, Ed and Ron, for the suggestions.  I don't think Kenny G. had a copy
because Archie Green had tried to find a copy also and it was Kenny who told
him about the removal of the library copies.
For those of you interested, my reason for seeking the diss. is as follows.
In doing some cursory research on the song "The Lowell Factory Girl" I found
that Greenway's printing of the ballad in his book seems to have been a
seminal source for most later singers.  John credited a broadside in the
Brown U. library as the source for his text.  However, there is no such.  I
was hoping that the dissertation might have had some more accurate
information on the source of this text.  Either John forgot where he saw the
broadside or (as Archie suggests) he took liberties with the text.
Any thoughts?
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation> Norm:
>
> I didn't know that John "disowned" his thesis so severely that he pirated
the library copy.  (Or is it a legend?)  After all, he did publish it as
_American Folksongs of Protest._  Hard to sieze all the copies in print.
>
> I wonder if Eleanor Long had a copyof the thesis.  I am pretty sure that
D.K. did and that Eleanor inherited it.  If not, then Alan Dundes might.
And try the Archive of Folk Culture.
>
> Ed
>
> P.S.  Note how Wilgus takes Greenway apart on pp. 229-232 of
_Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship._
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cohen, Ronald" <[unmask]>
> Date: Sunday, September 7, 2003 2:32 pm
> Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation
>
> > Norm: I am thinking that Kenny Goldstein might have had a copy, which
> > might be in his papers, wherever they are. Kenny was a close friend of
> > Greenway, even after his political transformation. Or ask Roger Abrahams
> > if he knows anything. ron cohen
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:   Norm Cohen [[unmask]]
> > Sent:   Sun 9/7/2003 2:04 PM
> > To:     [unmask]
> > Cc:
> > Subject:        John Greenway's dissertation
> >
> > Ed and others:
> > Does anyone happen to have a copy of John Greenway's doctoral diss. on
> > protest songs?  (I don't need the book version that he published).
> > Apparently U Penn doesn't have any copies, because after he turned
> > conservative John went to the library and destroyed all the copies they
had.
> > Anyone else ever get a copy?
> > Norm Cohen
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Lurkers
From: Dave Eyre <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:13:09 +0100
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I am more of a lurker ( for lurker I agree with Jon so read "reader") than
an erudite contributor, and enjoy the list for its erudition more than
anything else.Dave
[unmask]
www.collectorsfolk.co.ukFrom: "Jon Bartlett" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: Lurkers> I take great pleasure in reading all the posts, and when I have something
to
> contribute, I'll write (the same as I do to the papers and magazines I
> subscribe to).  I have no problem with publishing the list - I seem to
> remember that when I joined I had access to it.
>
> However...
>
> I would greatly appreciate replacing the vile word "lurker" with something
> gentler - howzabout "reader"?
>
> Jon Bartlett
>
>

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Subject: Our Goodman and 'shickered'
From: Jeffrey Kallen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:21:26 +0100
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Dear folks,As a semi-lurker (I think 'lurker' is a kind of nice term -- gives one a
certain status with respect to the list; after all, everyone is a 'reader'
at one time or another), I've a couple supplementary points on Our Goodman
and 'shickered'.For anyone keeping track of blues/jazz versions of the song, the group
Martin, Bogan, and Armstrong did one which they called 'The Cabbage Song'.
I heard them sing it at the Smithsonian Folk Festival in about 1970 or 71
and at the University of Chicago in 1972 or 73. I don't remember all the
words, but their version included a blanket (with buttons on) and ended
with 'a cabbage head with a mustache on'. The chorus was roughlyI travelled this world over,
A thousand miles or more,
But a ___ with ___
I never saw beforeI don't know if this African-American trio ever recorded the song, but it
fit in nicely with their overall blues/jazz reprertoire.As for shickered, I think the 'she-oak' derivation is much too far-fetched.
'Globalisation' is exactly the right word, in that it seems plausible that
the word came from Europe to Australia at an early time. The question is,
how early and in what context?  G.A. Wilkes's *A Dictionary of Australian
Colloquialisms* (Sydney: Collins Australia, 1988) should be consulted
alongside *A Concise Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English* (now
edited by Paul Beale, succeeding work started by Eric Partridge). Wilkes
lists "shickery" meaning 'shabby, badly' from 1859, but more to the point,
gives a quotation from Rolf Boldrewood's *An Australian Squire* (1878)
which supports a meaning more to the side of 'suffering the effects of
drink':"I'm always that fresh after a good night's sleep, when I've had a bit of a
spree that I could begin again quite flippant. Old Tom had a goodish cheque
this time, and was at it a week afore I came in. He was rayther shickerry."By 1898, Wilkes cites a source that simply defines the word "shiker" as
meaning 'drunk'. The citations continue up to 1973; I like this one:"A backbench senator referred today to the Jackson Pollock painting, 'Blue
Poles' bought by Australia for $1.3 million as 'shicker art' ... Later
outside the Senate he said that by 'shicker art' he meant paintings done by
people who were shickered, or drunk."But Australian usage also supports "shicker" as the word for liquor (oldest
citation 1916), and the verb "shicker" meaning 'to drink, get drunk'
(oldest citation 1913).Partridge/Beale cite "shicker" as 'drunk; from late 1890s' (that is, in
British usage). The example they cite, from Arther M. Binsted's *Gal's
Gossip* (1899), has an 'ethnic' flavour to it: "She comes over shikkur and
vants to go to shleeb". They also cite "shickery" as meaning 'shabby,
shabbily, bad, badly' as far back as 1851 and 'drunk' occasionally in the
late 19th and 20th centuries. The examples in Partridge's *Dictionary of
Historical Slang* (1972) are evidently British, and he makes no mention of
Australia. Beale, on the other hand, cites "shick" as Australian cince ca.
1920 for 'a drunken person', and gives "shick, shicked" meaning 'drunk' as
Australian, "shicker" meaning 'intoxicating liquor' and the phrase "on the
shicker" as in 'drinking heavily' as 'mostly Australian', and so on. Beale
(1989) cites a comment from 1971 to the effect that  'The East End Cockneys
got it from the early Jewish immigrants in the 80s of the last century'.
Leo Rosten's classic *The Joys of Yiddish* (now out in a new, updated
version called *The News Joys of Yiddish*, which I recommend) recognises
the Australian connection but is mystified by it.My guess is that the word came into Australian English not directly from
Yiddish, though it may have been reinforced by whatever Yiddish-speakers
did arrive there in the 19th century, but from British slang which had
already picked up the word from Yiddish. This wouldn't be the first such
case: according to Partridge, "kosher" meaning 'fair, square' dates back in
East End London slang to ca. 1860. Similarly, "nosh", eating in various
contexts, is well established in British (and for that matter Irish)
English; Partridge comments 'if ex German, it comes via Yiddish' (in
Ireland, we are not surprised to see restuarants with names like 'Posh
Nosh' -- and having a 'nosh-up' is a phrase with no conscious Yiddish
connotations at all). Whether other such Anglo-Yiddishisms were brought to
Australia I do not know, but this line of enquiry could go on forever ...Now back to lurking, or reading,Jeff Kallen

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:02:23 +0100
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> Lannigan's Ball like many songs in Tony Pastor's repertoire was from
> the repertoire of Harry Clifton the British Music Hall artiste who
> wrote several songs which have been collected as traditional.  The
> writer of the words was in fact D.K. Gavan, the Galway poet, who also
> wrote the words to The Rocky Road to Dublin.  Unfortunately who wrote
> the tunes is not as clear.The tune for "Rocky Road to Dublin" is a slipjigified version of the
old Scots "Ay Waukin O".  No idea about Lannigan's Ball...-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman and 'shickered'
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:21:11 +0100
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> "nosh", eating in various
> contexts, is well established in British (and for that matter Irish)
> English; Partridge comments 'if ex German, it comes via Yiddish' (in
> Ireland, we are not surprised to see restuarants with names like 'Posh
> Nosh' -- and having a 'nosh-up' is a phrase with no conscious Yiddish
> connotations at all).Interestingly multi-ethnic name given that "posh" is from Romany!I'm reminded of "Murphy's Pakora Bar" in Glasgow (next to the Ahmadiyya
mosque).-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Posh etymology
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Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:33:08 EDT
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Subject: Re: Our Goodman and 'shickered'
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 08:22:48 -0700
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Jeffrey:May I both compliment and thank you for the essay on "shickered" in
Australia. The Yiddish-to-Anglo/Irish-to-Oz theory makes sense to me.Thanks too for the bibliographical information.  I had no idea that both
Partridge and Rosten were updated.Ed

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:32:54 -0400
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Jack Campin wrote:
>
> The tune for "Rocky Road to Dublin" is a slipjigified version of the
> old Scots "Ay Waukin O".  No idea about Lannigan's Ball...
>
>
> Jack Campin: ......."Ay Waukin O": I don't know how familiar the tune might be
to Americans. An ABC of the tune in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #213,
is given in the ABC file S1.ABC on my website. Wm. Stenhouse in
'Illustrations to SMM', #213, gave another version, also in S1.ABC
The earliest reported appearance of the tune is in Napier's
Scots Songs, shortly before its appearance in SMM, but I
haven't seen that.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Posh etymology
From: George Madaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:35:58 -0400
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Likewise I was always told that POSH referred to the trip through the
Suez Canal to and from India Port Out  Starboard HomeGeorge
On Monday, September 8, 2003, at 10:33  AM, [unmask] wrote:> In a message dated 9/8/2003 9:21:48 AM Central Standard Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
> Interestingly multi-ethnic name given that "posh" is from Romany!
>
>
>
> That's interesting!  I had always heard that it was an acronym for
> Port Outward, Starboard Home  which were the most expensive cabins in
> the turn of the century luxery liners since they never got direct
> sun.  What does it mean in Romany? and how old is it?
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

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Subject: Fw: Another Goodman (summary)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:38:54 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: Another Goodman (summary)I  thought I'd have a go at summarizing the various contributions we have
had to this thread. If I've missed anything or anybody it wasn't
intentional, except that I have ignored the various reports of Child ballads
recorded by artists in the European composed music tradition which were
forwarded via Ballad-L.I'm not sure the items I have categorized as 'pop' really matter much
either. And I am very curious to know who Dave Evans's recording was aimed
at. There are lots of other versions of Barbara Allen whose intended
audience perhaps don't know what a Child ballad but whose performers
certainly do. The stuff below is in the main the kind of recording I was set
to wondering about.African-AmericanJo Jo Adams, Cabbage Head parts 1 and 2 (Aristocrat) [Richard Shurman,
transcribed by HR]Chris Powell and The Five Blue Flames: Last Saturday Night (14 April 1949,
Columbia 30162) [ transcribed by HR]Sonny Boy Williamson (Rice Miller), Wake Up Baby: (Chicago, March
1958,Checker 894) [Dave Sax; transcription from Frad McCormack]Professor Longhair, Cabbagehead:  House Party New Orleans Style: The Lost
Sessions 1971­1972 (Rounder CD2057). [Chris Smith]CARIBBEANBlinky and the Roadmasters from St. Croix (US Virgin Islands), fragment of
"Matty Groves" under the title of "Matty Gru": 'Crucian Scratch Band Music'
(Rounder 5047). [Paul Stamler, Chris Smith]COUNTRY/ROCKABILLY (?)Luke Gordon,  Mustache On The Cabbage Head: 1958/9 (Quincy 933), and early
80s (own World label) [Dave Sax]Wade Mainer, Four Nights Drunk: c. 1952 (Blue Ridge) [Jim Nelson]Earl Johnson & His Clodhoppers, Five Nights Drunk [Frank J. Dalton]Several recordings of "Black Jack David", based on "The Gypsie Laddie".
Cliff Carlisle and T Texas Tyler recorded this in the 30s and 40s, and
Warren Smith did so for Sun in 1956. [Eliot Williams]Dave Evans recorded "Barbara Allen" for Vetco Records around about 1979 [Jon
Weisberger].POPSimon & Garfunkel, Scarborough Fair (Child 2: The Elfin Knight) [Chris
Smith]
Dubliners, Seven Drunken Nights  [Dave Sax, Chris Smith] (c.1967?) (It's not
in the June 1967 Gramophone Popular Record Catalogue Master Edition, so was
issued later than that.)Howard Rye
[unmask]
20 Coppermill Lane,
London,
E17 7HB
Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098

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Subject: Fw: Another Goodman (summary)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 10:39:58 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Alan R. Young <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 9:24 AM
Subject: RE: Another Goodman (summary)Add to the African American section:Coley Jones - Drunkard's Special (Dec 6, 1929; Columbia 14489-D)

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Subject: new word enters lexicon!
From: Beth Brooks <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:01:42 -0500
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I'm going to try to use "slipjigified" at least once in my daily conversations from now on.>The tune for "Rocky Road to Dublin" is a slipjigified version of the
old Scots "Ay Waukin O".  No idea about Lannigan's Ball..Beth Brooks
Indianapolis

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Subject: Re: Our Goodman and 'shickered'
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 11:03:13 -0500
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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:10:31 -0400
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Jack Campin said:
>
>The tune for "Rocky Road to Dublin" is a slipjigified version of the
>old Scots "Ay Waukin O".  No idea about Lannigan's Ball...
>After all the talk of tune families, am I the only one to say "Huh?"
But to extend the idea of family, I posit that they're both variants
of the Princess Royal.John Roberts.

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 12:26:31 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Jack Campin wrote:
> >
> > The tune for "Rocky Road to Dublin" is a slipjigified version of the
> > old Scots "Ay Waukin O".  No idea about Lannigan's Ball...
> >
> >
> > Jack Campin: .......
>
> "Ay Waukin O": I don't know how familiar the tune might be
> to Americans. An ABC of the tune in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #213,
> is given in the ABC file S1.ABC on my website. Wm. Stenhouse in
> 'Illustrations to SMM', #213, gave another version, also in S1.ABC
> The earliest reported appearance of the tune is in Napier's
> Scots Songs, shortly before its appearance in SMM, but I
> haven't seen that.
>
> Bruce Olson
>Wm. Stenhouse in 'Illustrations to SMM', #213, said that the tune
"Ay Waukin O" in SMM 'is far from being genuine'. And he gives
the 'ancient air', but without saying how old 'ancient' was or
where he got his tune.There several Scots songs to the tune, from Napier's "Jess
Macpharlane" and Robet Burns' "Can I cease to care" to "The Licht
Bob's/ Lea-Boy's Lassie" in 'The Greig-Duncan Folk Song
Collection'.Stenhouse said the Joseph Ritson was of the opinion that the tune
was one of the oldest Scottish melodies.
This was probably from Ritson's 'Scottish Songs', 1794. I don't have
that work, and with prices for used copies starting at $270.00, I'm not
going to get it.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Fw: Another Goodman (summary)
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:33:35 -0500
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As I mentioned earlier, Meade/Spottswood/Meade in "Country Music
Sources" has five pages of Child ballads recorded by country performers
from the 20s into the 40s. Won't attempt to list all the recordings but
the ballads identified are Child 7, 10, 12, 53, 68, 73, 79, 84, 85, 95,
155, 200, 243, 274, 278, 286, and 289.Also, to the African-American section you can add Blind Lemon
Jefferson's 1927 version of "Our Goodman" titled "Laboring Man Away From
Home." Oliver, in "Songsters & Saints," comments on the small number of
ballads performed by "black performers, many of them having entertained
white audiences." He goes on to say"Versions of 'The Maid Freed From The Gallows,' 'Lady Isabel and the Elf
Knight,' 'The Jew's Daughter' and 'Lord Lovel,' among other British
ballads, were collected in the first quarter of the century."Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Howard Rye <[unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 6:59 AM
>Subject: Re: Another Goodman (summary)
>
>
>I  thought I'd have a go at summarizing the various contributions we have
>had to this thread. If I've missed anything or anybody it wasn't
>intentional, except that I have ignored the various reports of Child ballads
>recorded by artists in the European composed music tradition which were
>forwarded via Ballad-L.
>
>I'm not sure the items I have categorized as 'pop' really matter much
>either. And I am very curious to know who Dave Evans's recording was aimed
>at. There are lots of other versions of Barbara Allen whose intended
>audience perhaps don't know what a Child ballad but whose performers
>certainly do. The stuff below is in the main the kind of recording I was set
>to wondering about.
>
>African-American
>
>Jo Jo Adams, Cabbage Head parts 1 and 2 (Aristocrat) [Richard Shurman,
>transcribed by HR]
>
>Chris Powell and The Five Blue Flames: Last Saturday Night (14 April 1949,
>Columbia 30162) [ transcribed by HR]
>
>Sonny Boy Williamson (Rice Miller), Wake Up Baby: (Chicago, March
>1958,Checker 894) [Dave Sax; transcription from Frad McCormack]
>
>Professor Longhair, Cabbagehead:  House Party New Orleans Style: The Lost
>Sessions 1971­1972 (Rounder CD2057). [Chris Smith]
>
>CARIBBEAN
>
>Blinky and the Roadmasters from St. Croix (US Virgin Islands), fragment of
>"Matty Groves" under the title of "Matty Gru": 'Crucian Scratch Band Music'
>(Rounder 5047). [Paul Stamler, Chris Smith]
>
>COUNTRY/ROCKABILLY (?)
>
>Luke Gordon,  Mustache On The Cabbage Head: 1958/9 (Quincy 933), and early
>80s (own World label) [Dave Sax]
>
>Wade Mainer, Four Nights Drunk: c. 1952 (Blue Ridge) [Jim Nelson]
>
>Earl Johnson & His Clodhoppers, Five Nights Drunk [Frank J. Dalton]
>
>Several recordings of "Black Jack David", based on "The Gypsie Laddie".
>Cliff Carlisle and T Texas Tyler recorded this in the 30s and 40s, and
>Warren Smith did so for Sun in 1956. [Eliot Williams]
>
>Dave Evans recorded "Barbara Allen" for Vetco Records around about 1979 [Jon
>Weisberger].
>
>POP
>
>Simon & Garfunkel, Scarborough Fair (Child 2: The Elfin Knight) [Chris
>Smith]
>Dubliners, Seven Drunken Nights  [Dave Sax, Chris Smith] (c.1967?) (It's not
>in the June 1967 Gramophone Popular Record Catalogue Master Edition, so was
>issued later than that.)
>
>
>Howard Rye
>[unmask]
>20 Coppermill Lane,
>London,
>E17 7HB
>Tel/FAX: +44 20 8521 1098
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: Fw: Another Goodman (summary)
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:52:50 -0500
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Slipping in my old age. There is an earlier African-American version
which escaped my notice."Cabbage Head Blues" by Lena & sylvester Kimbrough [mid 1926; Meritt 2201]

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Subject: Re: Fw: Another Goodman (summary)
From: Clifford Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 13:53:08 -0500
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Slipping in my old age. There is an earlier African-American version
which escaped my notice."Cabbage Head Blues" by Lena & Sylvester Kimbrough [mid 1926; Meritt 2201]

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 15:16:10 -0400
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John Roberts wrote:
>
>
> After all the talk of tune families, am I the only one to say "Huh?"
> But to extend the idea of family, I posit that they're both variants
> of the Princess Royal.
>
> John Roberts.Which one?Old pop: On the EASMES website are tunes called "Princess Royal", with
scale incipits/stressed note codes commencing://543/345, //13/17-,
//323/154,//17-1/6-32, and //11/123.Traditional: In JFSS2 to JFSS8 there are 4 tunes called "Princess
Royal", (stressed note coded in file COMBCOD3.TXT on my website),
as well as one called "Bold Princess Royal"Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:11:03 -0400
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Not at all the Bold Princess Royal, but the setdance/morris/song tune
sometimes attributed to O'Carolan which appears in both major and
minor modes, and starts with a descending figure between 5 and 1,
which is about all the similarity _I_ see between Rocky Road to
Dublin and Ay Waukin O. Maybe I have the wrong tunes in my head, or
maybe your stress note code would reveal something I don't see.JR>John Roberts wrote:
>>
>>
>> After all the talk of tune families, am I the only one to say "Huh?"
>> But to extend the idea of family, I posit that they're both variants
>> of the Princess Royal.
>>
>> John Roberts.
>
>Which one?
>
>Old pop: On the EASMES website are tunes called "Princess Royal", with
>scale incipits/stressed note codes commencing://543/345, //13/17-,
>//323/154,//17-1/6-32, and //11/123.
>
>Traditional: In JFSS2 to JFSS8 there are 4 tunes called "Princess
>Royal", (stressed note coded in file COMBCOD3.TXT on my website),
>as well as one called "Bold Princess Royal"
>
>Bruce Olson
>
>Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
>and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
><A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
>subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation
From: Jane Keefer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 14:43:04 -0700
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There is a microfilm copy at Washington University listed in
WorldCat.   I am not completely sure whether UPenn has their complete
holdings in WorldCat.You may be able to get this via ILLJane Keefer
Folk Music Index----- Original Message -----
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation> Thanks, Ed and Ron, for the suggestions.  I don't think Kenny G.
had a copy
> because Archie Green had tried to find a copy also and it was Kenny
who told
> him about the removal of the library copies.
> For those of you interested, my reason for seeking the diss. is as
follows.
> In doing some cursory research on the song "The Lowell Factory
Girl" I found
> that Greenway's printing of the ballad in his book seems to have
been a
> seminal source for most later singers.  John credited a broadside
in the
> Brown U. library as the source for his text.  However, there is no
such.  I
> was hoping that the dissertation might have had some more accurate
> information on the source of this text.  Either John forgot where
he saw the
> broadside or (as Archie suggests) he took liberties with the text.
> Any thoughts?
> Norm
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "edward cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation
>
>
> > Norm:
> >
> > I didn't know that John "disowned" his thesis so severely that he
pirated
> the library copy.  (Or is it a legend?)  After all, he did publish
it as
> _American Folksongs of Protest._  Hard to sieze all the copies in
print.
> >
> > I wonder if Eleanor Long had a copyof the thesis.  I am pretty
sure that
> D.K. did and that Eleanor inherited it.  If not, then Alan Dundes
might.
> And try the Archive of Folk Culture.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > P.S.  Note how Wilgus takes Greenway apart on pp. 229-232 of
> _Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship._
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cohen, Ronald" <[unmask]>
> > Date: Sunday, September 7, 2003 2:32 pm
> > Subject: Re: John Greenway's dissertation
> >
> > > Norm: I am thinking that Kenny Goldstein might have had a copy,
which
> > > might be in his papers, wherever they are. Kenny was a close
friend of
> > > Greenway, even after his political transformation. Or ask Roger
Abrahams
> > > if he knows anything. ron cohen
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:   Norm Cohen [[unmask]]
> > > Sent:   Sun 9/7/2003 2:04 PM
> > > To:     [unmask]
> > > Cc:
> > > Subject:        John Greenway's dissertation
> > >
> > > Ed and others:
> > > Does anyone happen to have a copy of John Greenway's doctoral
diss. on
> > > protest songs?  (I don't need the book version that he
published).
> > > Apparently U Penn doesn't have any copies, because after he
turned
> > > conservative John went to the library and destroyed all the
copies they
> had.
> > > Anyone else ever get a copy?
> > > Norm Cohen
> > >
> >

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Subject: Re: Lurkers
From: Carly Gewirz <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:02:54 -0400
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Is that what I'm doing, lurking? I didn't mean to, honestly!  Seriously,  I
am a subscriber in my own name now, and I have no objection to my name being
available to other list subscribers. I have been enjoying the various
discussions immensely for the short time I've been  online, and  I  assume
that  if  I am ever in  possession of information useful to someone I will
pass it on. By the way, about that connection with Norm ... while a grad
student  in the folklore program at UCLA, I paid the rent, barely, by
working at the John Edwards Memorial Foundation, answering letters from
Japan about early bluegrass music and generally helping out  researchers. I
think I mentioned that to Bruce Olsen about  fifteen years ago...it is
positively frightening, what that man remembers!
Carly Gewirz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Eyre" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: Lurkers> I am more of a lurker ( for lurker I agree with Jon so read "reader") than
> an erudite contributor, and enjoy the list for its erudition more than
> anything else.
>
> Dave
> [unmask]
> www.collectorsfolk.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> From: "Jon Bartlett" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2003 5:13 AM
> Subject: Re: Lurkers
>
>
> > I take great pleasure in reading all the posts, and when I have
something
> to
> > contribute, I'll write (the same as I do to the papers and magazines I
> > subscribe to).  I have no problem with publishing the list - I seem to
> > remember that when I joined I had access to it.
> >
> > However...
> >
> > I would greatly appreciate replacing the vile word "lurker" with
something
> > gentler - howzabout "reader"?
> >
> > Jon Bartlett
> >
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Sameness of tunes
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 20:52:56 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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John Roberts wrote:
>
> Not at all the Bold Princess Royal, but the setdance/morris/song tune
> sometimes attributed to O'Carolan which appears in both major and
> minor modes, and starts with a descending figure between 5 and 1,
> which is about all the similarity _I_ see between Rocky Road to
> Dublin and Ay Waukin O. Maybe I have the wrong tunes in my head, or
> maybe your stress note code would reveal something I don't see.
>
> JR
>5 variants of Carolan's "Princess Royal" are stressed note coded
in file COMBCOD3.TXT under cross reference # 626.
Duplicate copies of a tune from different sources I don't list
there, because that takes too much file space, and time to load
the file is already the slowest step in the search process.
In the Irish tune index on my website just search for
|626| for all known copies of all variants found prior to 1865.Tune coding is drudge work, and I lost interest after about 10
years of JFSS and didn't finish JFSS, and I have done none of JEFDSS,
FMJ, or Morris dance collections. I've only done Scots tunes to about
1735, and am even missing a few collections before that date. The
latter can, for the most part, be found in Charles Gore's 'The
Scottish Fiddle Music Index', but coded by a different system,
which sometimes does and sometimes doesn't match stressed notes in
my system or that used in EASMES.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Posh etymology
From: Alan Ackerman <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:44:00 -0700
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>Likewise I was always told that POSH referred to the trip through the
>Suez Canal to and from India Port Out  Starboard Home
>
>George
>On Monday, September 8, 2003, at 10:33  AM, [unmask] wrote:
>
>>In a message dated 9/8/2003 9:21:48 AM Central Standard Time,
>>[unmask] writes:
>>
>>Interestingly multi-ethnic name given that "posh" is from Romany!
>>
>>
>>
>>That's interesting!  I had always heard that it was an acronym for
>>Port Outward, Starboard Home  which were the most expensive cabins in
>>the turn of the century luxery liners since they never got direct
>>sun.  What does it mean in Romany? and how old is it?
>George F. Madaus
>Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
>Senior Research Fellow
>National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
>Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
>Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
>Boston College
>Chestnut Hill MA 02467
>[unmask]
>617. 552.4521
>617 552 8419 FAXI read an  article somewhere that challenged both these derivations.
Only I cannot remember where. It concluded that  Port Out Starboard
Home was clearly wrong, and Romany was unproven.
--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

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Subject: Fwd: Re: Posh etymology
From: Alan Ackerman <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:55:46 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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There is an Urban Legends page on this. See
<http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/posh_etymology_of.html>.
It quotes The Browser's Dictionary by John Ciardi, favoring the
Romany origin>Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2003 18:44:00 -0700
>From: Alan Ackerman <[unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Posh etymology
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>
>>Likewise I was always told that POSH referred to the trip through the
>>Suez Canal to and from India Port Out  Starboard Home
>>
>>George
>>On Monday, September 8, 2003, at 10:33  AM, [unmask] wrote:
>>
>>>In a message dated 9/8/2003 9:21:48 AM Central Standard Time,
>>>[unmask] writes:
>>>
>>>Interestingly multi-ethnic name given that "posh" is from Romany!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That's interesting!  I had always heard that it was an acronym for
>>>Port Outward, Starboard Home  which were the most expensive cabins in
>>>the turn of the century luxery liners since they never got direct
>>>sun.  What does it mean in Romany? and how old is it?
>>George F. Madaus
>>Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
>>Senior Research Fellow
>>National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
>>Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
>>Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
>>Boston College
>>Chestnut Hill MA 02467
>>[unmask]
>>617. 552.4521
>>617 552 8419 FAX
>
>I read an  article somewhere that challenged both these derivations.
>Only I cannot remember where. It concluded that  Port Out Starboard
>Home was clearly wrong, and Romany was unproven.
>--
>
>Alan Ackerman, [unmask]--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Tacoma Park news
From: Conrad Bladey ***Peasant**** <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:26:49 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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I was in Columbus Ohio and missed the festival....generally good.
Yes! Tacoma Park Nucular Free Zone!ConradBruce Olson wrote:
>
> edward cray wrote:
> >
> > List Mother:
> >
> > Bruce's message reminds me I wanted to suggest that we publish the names of the ballad-l subscribers.
> >
> > Those lurkers wishing anonymity could opt out.  Just like we do for
> > the bankjs, insurance companies and telephone solicitors>
>
> Opting out complicates things.
>
> I thought the present system on LISTSERV (no list of subscribers, as on
> our old majordomo server) awkward at first, but I've changed my mind. We
> get poster's email addresses on their postings here. Lurkers can't post
> here annonymously, and may have valid reasons why they don't want their
> e-mail address known generally known. I'd like to know who all the
> lurkers are, but that doesn't seem to me to be as important as
> protecting them for whatever the reason they want to be lurkers. The
> resent status doesn't cause the posters any difficulty that I can see.
>
> Whether sound or ridiculous, I take my postings here to be readily
> available to anyone who wants to look at them.
>
> Bruce Olson
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> subject index) </a>--
"I had to walk down the road with
my throat a little dry
ranting like Jimmy Durante
My mind was as clear as the clouds in the sky
And my debts were all outstanding
outstanding
In a field of debts outstanding
my outraged heart was handy
at borrowing a sorrow I could put off 'till tomorrow
and coming to no understanding"- Jawbone "Pilgrim At the Wedding"

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Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Posh etymology
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 23:21:46 -0400
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Alan Ackerman wrote:
>
> There is an Urban Legends page on this. See
> <http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/posh_etymology_of.html>.
> It quotes The Browser's Dictionary by John Ciardi, favoring the
> Romany origin
>Farmer and Henley's 'Slang and it Analogues' says 'posh' is
money, giving a quote of its use in 1888.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Posh etymology
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 8 Sep 2003 22:12:46 -0700
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And James O. Halliwell's 1850 _Dictionary of Archaisms and Provincialisms_ gives "posh" as meaning "a great quantity."Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, September 8, 2003 8:21 pm
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Posh etymology> Alan Ackerman wrote:
> >
> > There is an Urban Legends page on this. See
> > <."
> target="l">http://www.urbanlegends.com/language/etymology/posh_etymology_of.html>.> It quotes The Browser's Dictionary by John Ciardi, favoring the
> > Romany origin
> >
>
>
> Farmer and Henley's 'Slang and it Analogues' says 'posh' is
> money, giving a quote of its use in 1888.
>
> Bruce Olson
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> subject index)
>

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Subject: Re: Posh etymology
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:23:07 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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>> Interestingly multi-ethnic name given that "posh" is from Romany!
> That's interesting!  I had always heard that it was an acronym for
> Port Outward, Starboard Home  which were the most expensive cabins
> in the turn of the century luxery liners since they never got direct
> sun.Urban legend - try www.snopes.org, they should have something on it.
It's another of those things like "Fornication Under Command of the
King".> What does it mean in Romany?  and how old is it?As far as I know it means "posh" and has an etymology going back to
when Romany was only spoken in North India, but I don't have sources
handy.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.

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Subject: (Posh) Etymology and ballads
From: Jeffrey Kallen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 09:56:58 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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Dear balladeers,I'd also always heard the 'port out, starboard home' etymology for this
word, but my general rule for etymology is that any etymology that makes a
good story is usually not true. This discussion sent me off to
Beale/Partridge, who allude both to the nautical etymology and to a Romany
word of possible relation.Specifically, Beale (this is the 1989 version of Partridge, known as *A
Concise Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English* and published in
London by Routledge, though no doubt it's also published in the US and may
even have been updated since 1989) says that "posh" is an underworld cant
term for 'money, specifically, a halfpenny or other coin of low value';
though the word is cited for the 19th century, Beale says that the term
also became obsolescent then. This meaning of "posh" he derives from Romany
"posh" meaning 'a half', as in "posh-horri" meaning 'a halfpenny' and
"posh-koorona", i.e. a 'half crown'. There is a related sense recorded
here, too, of "posh" meaning 'a dandy' which is given as Society slang
attested in 1897 but supposedly obsolete by 1920.The meaning 'stylish, smart', etc. was apparently in military usage first
but became general by 1919 -- except that it evidently shows up in
Cambridge University slang in 1903 as 'push' or 'poosh'. Beale says it may
have come from the noun "posh" (so the Romany theory is in), or that it may
be from Scottish "tosh" meaning 'clean, neat, trim'. The 'port out
starboard home' explanation Beale describes as 'ingenious and plausible'
but he is 'distrusting' of it. His own preference is as a contraction of
"polish", itself what he calls a "slovened [i.e. slovenly, not Slovenian!]
pronunciation of "polished".' This might sound a little far-fetched, but
the army usage may support it, considering the military phrase (also from
1917 or 1918) "poshed up", i.e. 'to make smart in appearance; to clean and
polish'.Did an underworld term for a small coin transmute into a term for lots of
money and the style that goes with it? Did the style element start out as
the prime feature of the word, and did the money element get added later?
Did the two reinforce each other, giving a hybrid that combines both money
and style?  (Either way, I think the ship story, like many folk
etymologies, only explains the word after the fact. I wouldn't discount it
on that basis -- it becomes part of what people know about the word,
whether it represents 'history' or not.)One thing I think ballads and etymology have in common is that direct
etymologies are often impossible to construct. It is better to look at
families of words that share some relations and mutual influences, much
like tune or song families. For just as many song texts come from (or
influence) other song texts, words come from words -- and it can be awfully
difficult to put together enough evidence to say that a certain word
'definitely' came from a certain source. Just like it's hard to prove that
a particular version of a traditional song is the original or first
version.Jeff Kallen

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Subject: For tune sleuths
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 11:17:46 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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I think that "I am a poor, wayfaring stranger" has become so well
known, sung to such a constant tune, that everyone will recognize it.This has been said to be an Irish tune, and I think it has that feel,
but I've not seen any old country examples of tunes that are
particularly close to it.It is usually (but not always) minor.  In the following each syllable
is an eighth note and each ' extends it by an eighth note.  The tonic
is "l".  Notes in the octave below "l" are capitalized.  Notes in the
octave above "l" are preceded by "*".3/4
1: l l m | m'' r m r | d l'   (var: l l l | m'' etc.)
2: l l m | r'' d l S | l''    (var: l l m | r'' l d r | m'')
(Repeat 1 and 2.  If 2var, use 2 on repeat.)
3: m m s |*l'' m s*l | m r'   (3 and 4 are subject to several
4: m m s |*l'' m s s | m''     small variations.)
(Repeat 1 and 2, but many variations are found.)Is this an "old Irish tune"?--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Lurkers
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:25:36 -0400
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Carly Gewirz wrote:
>
> think I mentioned that to Bruce Olsen about  fifteen years ago...it is
> positively frightening, what that man remembers!
> Carly Gewirz
...Fear not. I've never had time to figure out the intricies of techniques
for successfull blackmail, and success rests finally in getting all the
details right.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 12:40:33 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I think that "I am a poor, wayfaring stranger" has become so well
> known, sung to such a constant tune, that everyone will recognize it.
>
> This has been said to be an Irish tune, and I think it has that feel,
> but I've not seen any old country examples of tunes that are
> particularly close to it.
>
> It is usually (but not always) minor.  In the following each syllable
> is an eighth note and each ' extends it by an eighth note.  The tonic
> is "l".  Notes in the octave below "l" are capitalized.  Notes in the
> octave above "l" are preceded by "*".
>
> 3/4
> 1: l l m | m'' r m r | d l'   (var: l l l | m'' etc.)
> 2: l l m | r'' d l S | l''    (var: l l m | r'' l d r | m'')
> (Repeat 1 and 2.  If 2var, use 2 on repeat.)
> 3: m m s |*l'' m s*l | m r'   (3 and 4 are subject to several
> 4: m m s |*l'' m s s | m''     small variations.)
> (Repeat 1 and 2, but many variations are found.)
>
> Is this an "old Irish tune"?
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]I think that must be sol-fa notation, and that I can't read. If you
could do it in ABC I could stressed note code it and compare with tunes
in file COMCOD3.TXT on my website, where almost, if not all, known Irish
tunes through 1864 are stressed note coded. I'f the tune is considerably
variant, stressed note coding does not work well, and we are eagerly
awaiting Ann Dhu McLucas's new book on tune families, and seeing her 12
characteristics of tunes usefull for the purposes of identification of
variant tunes.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Nigel Gatherer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:05:34 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(24 lines)


John Garst wrote:> 3/4
> 1: l l m | m'' r m r | d l'[Snip]This might help:X:585
T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
S:John Garst
Z:Nigel Gatherer
L:1/8
M:3/4
K:Dm
DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Harry Clifton
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 14:54:47 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(22 lines)


Hi,
This thread is really a continuation of a discussion in the <Sameness of
tunes> thread. I'll have to send the info in smallish bites as my server
keeps cutting me off when I try to send a lengthy message.
    Harry Clifton (1824-72) was one of the top Music Hall turns of the
1860s in Britain. He is mostly remembered for his Motto and character songs
and these went through a revival in the 1880s. he is reputed to have
written 500+ songs some of which have been collected in the late 19thC and
the 20thC and appear in folksong collections.
    His best-known songs appear to have been..
A Motto For Every man (c1865)
Jones's Musical Party (1864)
Paddle Your own canoe (1866)
Pulling Hard against the stream (1867)
Work Boys Work and be Contented (1867) tune Tramp, Tramp, Tramp.
     He travelled around England, Ireland & Scotland a lot & wrote songs
about the places where he was performing e.g. for my home city, Hull, he
wrote 'Faithless Maria, or, The Land of Green Ginger (1866) which is a
famous thoroughfare in Hull city centre. As you can gather from some of the
titles (Work Boys Work etc) his songs were meant to appeal to the middle
classes and contained messages of virtue to the common man.
More about my own collection anon.

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Subject: Harry Clifton
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:11:49 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(25 lines)


I have in my collection of sheet music about 25 pieces of his. I have 115
titles of songs performed by him, most of which I have copies on
broadsides. His most popular material was published by Hopwood and Crew,
usually with a portrait of him on the cover in character, similar in fact
to the sheets of Tony Pastor in the Levy collection.
     Those of the following marked * I have sheet music copies and those
marked # i have broadside copies.Those that appear in Folk Song CollectionsPaddle Your Own Canoe (1866) *
Pulling Hard Against the Stream (1867) *
Shabby Genteel (1868) writen by Henry S Leigh #
On Board of the Kangaroo #
Water Cresses or the Watercress Girl (1863) #
My Rattling mare & I (bef 1867) * Obviously a parody on My Old Wife.
The Rocky Road to Dublin (bef 1867) *
Mary Ann or the Roving Gardener (1865) *Those heard in Folk Clubs in BritainThe Calico Printer's Clerk (1865) *
Polly Perkins of Paddingon Green (1863) *
I am one of the Olden Time or Fifty Years Ago. (bef 1868) *
The Weepin' Willer or The Miller's daughter (1865) #

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:14:42 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(37 lines)


Nigel Gatherer wrote:
>
> John Garst wrote:
>
> > 3/4
> > 1: l l m | m'' r m r | d l'
>
> [Snip]
>
> This might help:
>
> X:585
> T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
> S:John Garst
> Z:Nigel Gatherer
> L:1/8
> M:3/4
> K:Dm
> DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
> AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
> DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> [unmask]
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/Sorry, no luck. Stressed note code is 15341515.
Several in my COMBCOD3.TXT (searched by CODEDSP9.EXE) come close to the
stressed note code here, but are wrong timing or wrong mode.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:28:57 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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>Nigel Gatherer wrote:
>>
>>  John Garst wrote:
>>
>>  > 3/4
>>  > 1: l l m | m'' r m r | d l'
>>
>>  [Snip]
>>
>>  This might help:
>>
>>  X:585
>>  T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
>>  S:John Garst
>>  Z:Nigel Gatherer
>>  L:1/8
>>  M:3/4
>>  K:Dm
>>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
>>  AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
>>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]
>>
>>  --
>>  Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
>>  [unmask]
>>  http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
>
>Sorry, no luck. Stressed note code is 15341515.
>Several in my COMBCOD3.TXT (searched by CODEDSP9.EXE) come close to the
>stressed note code here, but are wrong timing or wrong mode.
>
>Bruce OlsonThanks, Bruce and Nigel.I hope that "wrong timing" doesn't merely mean 4/4 with the same
pattern as 3/4, e.g.,3/4
DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3  etc.4/4
DDA | A5 GAG | F D4 DDA | G5 FDC | D5  etc.Also, mode differences don't invalidate tune relationships, in my book.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Harry Clifton
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 15:33:33 -0500
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Other Songs of InterestAct on the Square #
The Adventures of Robinson Crusoe
As welcome as the flowers in May #
Isabella the Barber's daughter of Islington #
 Careless joe
 Charity Crow (bef 1867)
Cupid in the Kitchen (duet with wife, Fanny Edwards)
Darby Maguire #
The Dark Girl Dressed in Blue (1862)#
The Farmer's Daughter of Berkshire
The Happy Policeman
The hardware Line (c1865) #
I'll go and enlist for a sailor ,or The Unfortunate tailor
A Jolly Old Country Squire *
Jones's Musical Party (1864) *
Lannigan's Ball (c1866) *
Merry Old Uncle joe #
 The Mother-in-Law (c1860) #
My Old Wife *
Poor Old Mike (1863) #
The railway Belle (1865) #
Shelling Green Peas (1866) #
Sinbad the Sailor (medley)
Up with the lark in the morning *
Wait for the turn of the tide (1868) *
Waterford Boys #
The Wedding of Biddy McGrane #That's all for now.

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 16:49:08 -0400
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>>>  X:585
>>>  T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
>>>  S:John Garst
>>>  Z:Nigel Gatherer
>>>  L:1/8
>>>  M:3/4
>>>  K:Dm
>>>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
>>>  AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
>>>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]
>>>
>>>  --
>>>  Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
>>>  [unmask]
>>>  http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
>>
>>Sorry, no luck. Stressed note code is 15341515.
>>Several in my COMBCOD3.TXT (searched by CODEDSP9.EXE) come close to the
>>stressed note code here, but are wrong timing or wrong mode.
>>
>>Bruce OlsonI'm not sure how you generate your stressed note code, Bruce, but I
would have come up with15531411  for the first line above, taking D as "1."  These are the
notes on the first and third beats of each measure.Alternatively, using a coarser grid, I would get5341 (notes on first beat of each measure)Even coarser:  54 (notes on first beat of first measures of each phrase)Another alternative: 5141 (notes on first beat of first measure of
each phrase plus the terminal note of each phrase).
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Harry Clifton
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:03:16 -0400
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Steve Gardham wrote:
>Thanks, for the info, and changing to a more meaningfull thread title.I'd like to go back to his "Lanigan's Ball". Titles are such treacherous
things to work with that I'd like to see if we're talking about the same
"Lanigan's Ball", text and tune as that in the Levy collection, with
words attribued to Pastor and music attributed to Neil Bryant.I've made an ABC of the tune, if that will help, but the fastest way
would be for you to compare Clifton's tune against that in the .GIF on
the Levy collection website. Sorry to make work for you, but since I
don't have Clifton's text or tune, I can't do it.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:09:04 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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>>>>  X:585
>>>>  T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
>>>>  S:John Garst
>>>>  Z:Nigel Gatherer
>>>>  L:1/8
>>>>  M:3/4
>>>>  K:Dm
>>>>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
>>>>  AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
>>>>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]
>>>>
>>>>  --
>>>>  Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
>>>>  [unmask]
>>>>  http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
>>>
>>>Sorry, no luck. Stressed note code is 15341515.
>>>Several in my COMBCOD3.TXT (searched by CODEDSP9.EXE) come close to the
>>>stressed note code here, but are wrong timing or wrong mode.
>>>
>>>Bruce Olson
>
>I'm not sure how you generate your stressed note code, Bruce, but I
>would have come up with
>
>15531411  for the first line above, taking D as "1."  These are the
>notes on the first and third beats of each measure.When there is syncopation, as at the end of the first phrases of the
"coarse" and "fine" parts, I have trouble knowing what to do with
stressed notes.  Music books will tell you that the stress is
transferred to the longer note following the shorter on that falls on
the normally stressed beat, but this does not correspond to what I
hear.  Perhaps this type of syncopation should be treated as two
successive stressed notes.  Then I would get15531 1411  (Here I have separated the two phrases of the first line.)If you follow what the books say, you would get1551 1411   (Omits the first note of syncopated pair.)In my view, perhaps the most useful way of stripping the tune to its
essentials is51 41  (or 51 45 for var)
51 41  (Nigel's ABC needs a repeated first line)
84 85
51 41  (many vars differ here)
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:28:38 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(73 lines)


John Garst wrote:
>
> >Nigel Gatherer wrote:
> >>
> >>  John Garst wrote:
> >>
> >>  > 3/4
> >>  > 1: l l m | m'' r m r | d l'
> >>
> >>  [Snip]
> >>
> >>  This might help:
> >>
> >>  X:585
> >>  T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
> >>  S:John Garst
> >>  Z:Nigel Gatherer
> >>  L:1/8
> >>  M:3/4
> >>  K:Dm
> >>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
> >>  AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
> >>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> >>  [unmask]
> >>  http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
> >
> >Sorry, no luck. Stressed note code is 15341515.
> >Several in my COMBCOD3.TXT (searched by CODEDSP9.EXE) come close to the
> >stressed note code here, but are wrong timing or wrong mode.
> >
> >Bruce Olson
>
> Thanks, Bruce and Nigel.
>
> I hope that "wrong timing" doesn't merely mean 4/4 with the same
> pattern as 3/4, e.g.,
>
> 3/4
> DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3  etc.
>
> 4/4
> DDA | A5 GAG | F D4 DDA | G5 FDC | D5  etc.
>
> Also, mode differences don't invalidate tune relationships, in my book.
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]I'm aware that timing isn't a final deterinming factor. In SE England
the first note (stressed) of each measure of a nominal 4/4 tune gets
'stretched' to give 5/4, and elsehere stretching 1st and 3rd quarter
notes gives 6/4. Modes, also, yes. A very few tunes are know that are
found in ionian(major), mixolydian, dorian, and aeolian(minor) variants.
When one allows for as much as a 2 stressed note difference and
disregards timing and mode, one has a very large number of possible
'coincidences' to check for, and that can be days of work.That's why I am hoping that Anne Dhu McLucas's 12 characteristics will
help us reduce the labor invoved.We may eventual find that the tune "Poor Wayfaing Stranger" is an old
Irish tune, but at this point we know that establishing the identity is
not going to be a trivial chore.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 17:45:11 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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John Garst wrote:
>
> >>>  X:585
> >>>  T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
> >>>  S:John Garst
> >>>  Z:Nigel Gatherer
> >>>  L:1/8
> >>>  M:3/4
> >>>  K:Dm
> >>>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
> >>>  AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
> >>>  DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]
> >>>
> >>>  --
> >>>  Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> >>>  [unmask]
> >>>  http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
> >>
> >>Sorry, no luck. Stressed note code is 15341515.
> >>Several in my COMBCOD3.TXT (searched by CODEDSP9.EXE) come close to the
> >>stressed note code here, but are wrong timing or wrong mode.
> >>
> >>Bruce Olson
>
> I'm not sure how you generate your stressed note code, Bruce, but I
> would have come up with
>
> 15531411  for the first line above, taking D as "1."  These are the
> notes on the first and third beats of each measure.
>
> Alternatively, using a coarser grid, I would get
>
> 5341 (notes on first beat of each measure)
>
> Even coarser:  54 (notes on first beat of first measures of each phrase)
>
> Another alternative: 5141 (notes on first beat of first measure of
> each phrase plus the terminal note of each phrase).
> --
> john garst    [unmask]There are multiple possibilites for stressed note positions in 3/4 time.
(and I suspect that some, where I didn't have the song text to help me
figure them out, I've got miss-coded in my COMBCOD3.TXT file)
"Key to the Celer/ (new) Bob and Joan" is nominally 3/2, and sometimes
3/4, but it's |DAA da DAA da| in each measure, 2 stressed notes per
measure.As I remember Burl Ives' version of the song, stressed notes for our
case should be the simplest posibility, first note in each measure.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:25:46 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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>here are multiple possibilites for stressed note positions in 3/4 time.
>(and I suspect that some, where I didn't have the song text to help me
>figure them out, I've got miss-coded in my COMBCOD3.TXT file)
>"Key to the Celer/ (new) Bob and Joan" is nominally 3/2, and sometimes
>3/4, but it's |DAA da DAA da| in each measure, 2 stressed notes per
>measure.
>
>As I remember Burl Ives' version of the song, stressed notes for our
>case should be the simplest posibility, first note in each measure.
>
>Bruce OlsonFWIW, quite a few songs in The Sacred Harp are written in 2/2 and sung in 3/2.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:31:09 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>I should have added on my last posting that when stressed note
coding leads to many possibilities, then you can't solve the
'identity' problem on the basis of stressed notes. You have to go
back to the whole tunes in the posibilities list and compare with
your reference one.I have a possible way to do this if I do all the 'posibilities' tunes as
ABCs.As I pointed out in an earlier note in a reply to Jack Campin,
with the ABC player program on my website, I can plot the log of
note frequency vertically and playing time horizontally all on
one screen, (optional new vertical and horizontal scaling allows
higher resolution) and put any pair of tunes right on top of each
other, to see how close they are. I don't have much experience
with this, and I still don't know anything quantative about what
'variant' means, so how do I pass judgement on what I can see
that way?.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:37:53 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(34 lines)


>This might help:
>
>X:585
>T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
>S:John Garst
>Z:Nigel Gatherer
>L:1/8
>M:3/4
>K:Dm
>DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
>AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
>DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]Which is almost the same as "You've Got to Walk That Lonesome Valley"
and rather similar in structure to a blues melody.  Could it be of
African origin?This Scottish tune sounds a bit like a development from the same idea
but I'd guess it arose independently:X:6
T:Born in St Johnstone and burn'd in Dundee
S:Blaikie MS, NLS MS.1578/Mf.Sec.MSS.295
M:3/4
L:1/4
K:Dmin
DAG   |F>GA|FED   |C>DE|DAG|F>GA|A    f e   |d3||
Add/c/|A dc|FcA/G/|F>GA|AAG|F>GA|G/F/ D C/E/|D3|]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:50:50 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(46 lines)


>Bruce Olson wrote:
>>
>
>I should have added on my last posting that when stressed note
>coding leads to many possibilities, then you can't solve the
>'identity' problem on the basis of stressed notes. You have to go
>back to the whole tunes in the posibilities list and compare with
>your reference one.
>
>I have a possible way to do this if I do all the 'posibilities' tunes as
>ABCs.
>
>As I pointed out in an earlier note in a reply to Jack Campin,
>with the ABC player program on my website, I can plot the log of
>note frequency vertically and playing time horizontally all on
>one screen, (optional new vertical and horizontal scaling allows
>higher resolution) and put any pair of tunes right on top of each
>other, to see how close they are. I don't have much experience
>with this, and I still don't know anything quantative about what
>'variant' means, so how do I pass judgement on what I can see
>that way?.I do something similar, except that I suppress the rhythm.  I plot
log frequency (idealized to match equal temperament) vs *syllable* of
text sung with the tune.  I put in bar lines appropriately, preceding
the most stressed notes, first beat of each measure.  In my view,
stressed notes are tune characteristics and rhythms are not.What you get, of course, is subject to interpretation.  In judging
tunes to be the "same," I usually rely most on stressed notes, final
notes of phrases (if they are not stressed), and "closeness" along
the log frequency axis.I'm probably pretty liberal about this.I claim, for example, that the tune that is now commonly sung to "I
am a man of constant sorrow" is the "same" as the first part of the
tune published as TENDER-HEARTED CHRISTIAN in William Walker,
Southern and Western Pocket Harmonist, Philadelphia, 1846.  See my
article, "Man of Constant Sorrow": Antecedents and Tradition, Country
Music Annual, 2002 (University Press of Kentucky).  I'm sure that
there are those who would disagree with calling these the "same"
tunes, but I don't think anyone could disagree much with saying that
they are closely related.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 18:59:45 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(46 lines)


>  >This might help:
>>
>>X:585
>>T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
>>S:John Garst
>>Z:Nigel Gatherer
>>L:1/8
>>M:3/4
>>K:Dm
>>DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
>>AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
>>DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]
>
>Which is almost the same as "You've Got to Walk That Lonesome Valley"It is close to *some* of the tunes sung with that text, Blind Willie
McTell (I think), not very close to others, such as that used by The
Carter Family.>and rather similar in structure to a blues melody.  Could it be of
>African origin?
>
>This Scottish tune sounds a bit like a development from the same idea
>but I'd guess it arose independently:
>
>X:6
>T:Born in St Johnstone and burn'd in Dundee
>S:Blaikie MS, NLS MS.1578/Mf.Sec.MSS.295
>M:3/4
>L:1/4
>K:Dmin
>DAG   |F>GA|FED   |C>DE|DAG|F>GA|A    f e   |d3||
>Add/c/|A dc|FcA/G/|F>GA|AAG|F>GA|G/F/ D C/E/|D3|]Many of the texts used with WAYFARING STRANGER and relatives are
meter 9898.  Is that true here?As G. P. Jackson pointed out, many of these texts also have a theme
of travel.  (I'm going there to meet my father, etc.)A rather close relative of the first phrase of WAYFARING STRANGER is
found, as I recall (and I'm a bit uncertain), in A. L. Lloyd's book.
It is from Bulgaria (again, I'm a bit uncertain, not having the book
at hand).
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:32:21 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

text/plain(48 lines)


>X:585
>T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
>S:John Garst
>Z:Nigel Gatherer
>L:1/8
>M:3/4
>K:Dm
>DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
>AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
>DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]Footnote: finally I figure out where Patrick Galvin got the tune
for his lament for James Connolly from...Which in turn reminded me of the second part of this one (I think
it's almost identical to the version in Daniel Dow's "Ancient
Scottish Melodies", but don't have a copy of that book handy).
There is an enormous amount of elaboration, but surely there's an
early "Wayfaring Stranger" peeping out from under the gracenotes.
(Could well be an old Irish harp tune, like several of the "Rorie
Dall" pieces printed in the 18th century).X:4
T:Am Bruadar
T:The Dream
T:The Quick Dream [Dow's title]
S:Celtic Melodies selected and arranged by a Highlander, pub Robert Purdie, Edinburgh 1823
N:I got this in M.S. and think it a most perfect piece of musical composition.
B:NLS Glen.399
N:no. LXVII
N:first e in bar 15 is f in the book (alternate suggested by pencil note)
M:3/4
L:1/8
Q:1/4=50
K:A Dorian
       B|c>A  {A}e2  d>c|{c}B>G {G}d2   ee//d//c//B//|c>d        e2    c>{c}e    |{e}d>B {B}A2
A{BAGA}B|c>A  {A}e2  d>c|{c}B>G {G}d3    z           |e/g/Ha/>g/ e2    c>{d}e    |{e}d>B    A A2||
 a      |a>b {ab}c'2 b>a|   a>g {g}e2   ze           |a/>e/a/b/  c'2   e>c'      |   b>a    az
ab      |c'a    Ta2  eTa|   g<e    d<e  A>B          |cd         eHa   c{defgag}e|{e}d>B {B}A2 z
 a      |ab      c'2 ba |   a>g    e2   ze/a//b//    |c'>a    {a}b2    a>g       |  Tg>e {e}a2 z
 a/b/   |c'b     a2  ea |   g<e    d<e HAB           |cd         ea {c}c{defgag}e|{e}d>B {B}A2 z|]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:12:04 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

text/plain(29 lines)


Jack Campin wrote:
>>
> This Scottish tune sounds a bit like a development from the same idea
> but I'd guess it arose independently:
>
> X:6
> T:Born in St Johnstone and burn'd in Dundee
> S:Blaikie MS, NLS MS.1578/Mf.Sec.MSS.295
> M:3/4
> L:1/4
> K:Dmin
> DAG   |F>GA|FED   |C>DE|DAG|F>GA|A    f e   |d3||
> Add/c/|A dc|FcA/G/|F>GA|AAG|F>GA|G/F/ D C/E/|D3|]
>> Jack Campin:Wow, "Bonnie Susie Cleland" tune. Blaikie collected for Motherwell, but
my copy of Motherwell lacks the appendix where the music is. Did
Motherwell publish this tune?Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 20:26:27 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

text/plain(29 lines)


Jack Campin wrote:
>
> >T
> X:6
> T:Born in St Johnstone and burn'd in Dundee
> S:Blaikie MS, NLS MS.1578/Mf.Sec.MSS.295
> M:3/4
> L:1/4
> K:Dmin
> DAG   |F>GA|FED   |C>DE|DAG|F>GA|A    f e   |d3||
> Add/c/|A dc|FcA/G/|F>GA|AAG|F>GA|G/F/ D C/E/|D3|]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jack Campin:Jack, how about giving us a title list of the tunes in Blaikie's MS?
Not all the tunes Blaikie collected got into Motherwell's appendix, and
these are among the earliest Scots traditional tunes. (Also C. K.
Sharpe's tunes which I know you've seen).[Jack is a treasure house of info on almost every tune in any 18th or
early 19th century Scots MS]Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 8 Sep 2003 to 9 Sep 2003 - Special issue (#2003-63)Harry Clifton
From: Margaret MacArthur <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 22:30:17 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Re Harry CliftonSteve Gardham wrote:
>I am one of the Olden Time or Fifty Years Ago. (bef 1868)I sing  Fifty Years Ago as collected by HH Flanders in Bennington VT
The first and last verses follow.How wondrous are the changes since fifty years ago
When girls wore woolen dresses and boys wore pants of tow
Boots were made of cowhide, socks of homespun wool
And children did a half days work before they went to schoolYes everything has altered, I cannot tell the cause
Man is always tampering with natures wondrous laws
What on earth we're coming to does anybody know?
Everything has changed so much since fifty years agoIs this song related to Harry Clifton's?Margaret MacArthurMargaret MacArthur
Box 15 MacArthur Road
Marlboro VT 05344
802/254/2549
[unmask]
http://www.margaretmacarthur.com
from the heart of the Green Mountains

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 9 Sep 2003 23:30:10 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Jack Campin wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > This Scottish tune sounds a bit like a development from the same idea
> > but I'd guess it arose independently:
> >
> > X:6
> > T:Born in St Johnstone and burn'd in Dundee
> > S:Blaikie MS, NLS MS.1578/Mf.Sec.MSS.295
> > M:3/4
> > L:1/4
> > K:Dmin
> > DAG   |F>GA|FED   |C>DE|DAG|F>GA|A    f e   |d3||
> > Add/c/|A dc|FcA/G/|F>GA|AAG|F>GA|G/F/ D C/E/|D3|]
> >
>B. Bronson, 'Traditional Tunes of the Child Ballads' II, #65, at "Lady
Maisry" #2, gives "Susie Cleland" from the appendix to Motherwell's
'Minstrelsy', 1827.It's not the same tune that Jack Campin gave us above. It appears
that Andrew Blaikie collected two tunes for the ballad.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Ebay List - 09/09/03
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:09:04 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Hi!        Since the next couple of days look busy, I am posted the Ebay
list a bit early this week.        SONGSTERS        3625985106 - THE HARDWARE SONGSTER, 1920?, $2.99 (ends Sep-17-03
11:56:22 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3549718547 - Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan by Gardner
and Chickering, 1967 reprint, $9.99 (ends Sep-11-03 19:50:34 PDT)        3549722489 - Texas Folk Songs by Owens, 1976, $24.95 (ends
Sep-11-03 20:12:02 PDT)        3546727849 - The Ballad Book by Allingham, 1913 printing, $9.99
(eTo: [unmask]
Cc:
Bcc:
Subject: Ebay List - 09/09/03
Reply-To: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]>
Organization: D and D DataHi!        Since the next couple of days look busy, I am posted the Ebay
list a bit early this week.        SONGSTERS        3625985106 - THE HARDWARE SONGSTER, 1920?, $2.99 (ends Sep-17-03
11:56:22 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3549718547 - Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan by Gardner
and Chickering, 1967 reprint, $9.99 (ends Sep-11-03 19:50:34 PDT)        3549722489 - Texas Folk Songs by Owens, 1976, $24.95 (ends
Sep-11-03 20:12:02 PDT)        3546727849 - The Ballad Book by Allingham, 1913 printing, $9.99
(ends Sep-12-03 09:30:32 PDT)        3549853829 - English County Folks Songs by Sharp, 1961, $19.99
(ends Sep-12-03 15:37:04 PDT)        3549862786 - Two Penny Ballads and Four Dollar Whiskey by
Byington & Goldstein, 1965, $5 (ends Sep-12-03 16:51:50 PDT)        3549864659 - More Traditional Ballads of Virginia by Davis,
1960, $9.99 (ends Sep-12-03 17:05:35 PDT)        3548828122 - ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS by ?, ?,
$4.25, (ends Sep-12-03 17:13:02 PDT)        3549866435 - Air Force Airs by Wallrich, 1957, $19 (ends
Sep-12-03 17:19:19 PDT)        3549873336 - Old Bush Songs, 1905, $14.99 (ends Sep-12-03
18:06:01 PDT)        3549874136 - The Scottish Folksinger by Buchan & Hall, 1973, $9
(ends Sep-12-03 18:12:26 PDT)        3549880478 - The Play-Party in Indiana: A Collection of
Folk-Songs and Games by Wolford, 1916, $9.99 (ends Sep-12-03 18:52:05
PDT)        3549897557 - The Celtic Garland. Translations of Gaelic and
English Songs; Popular Gaelic Readings, &c. by Sinclair, 1881, $17.50
(ends Sep-12-03 20:47:57 PDT)        2556652926 - Shanties by ?, 1972, $9.99 (ends Sep-13-03 09:35:04
PDT)        3548978787 - The Songs of Ireland by Hatton & Molloy, 1900?, 12
GBP, (ends Sep-13-03 11:46:40 PDT)        3548974995 - THE MERCIER BOOK OF OLD IRISH STREET BALLADS:
Volume 2 by Healy, 1969, $5.95 (ends Sep-13-03 15:00:00 PDT)        3550252866 - 8 books on Ireland inc. Historical Ballad Poetry of
Ireland by Brown, 1900, $12 (ends Sep-14-03 13:06:11 PDT)        2556938928 - Old Time Songs and Poetry of Newfoundland by Doyle,
1966, $9.35 (ends Sep-14-03 16:28:32 PDT)        2556383077 - Songs of American Sailormen by Colcord, 1938
edition, $9.99 (ends Sep-14-03 17:57:33 PDT)        3550326145 - English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Sargent &
Kittredge, 1932, $0.99 (ends Sep-14-03 18:24:39 PDT)        3241180797 - American Negro Folk Songs by White, 1928, $165
(ends Sep-14-03 18:25:47 PDT)        2552497633 - South Carolina Ballads, With a Study of the
Traditional Ballad To-Day by Smith, 1972 reprint, $11.38 (ends Sep-14-03
20:30:00 PDT)        3549772692 - The English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Child,
5 volumes, 1965 Dover edition, 100 GBP w/reserve (ends Sep-15-03
07:14:59 PDT)        2557071223 - CARSON ROBISON COLLECTION OF MOUNTAIN BALLADS AND
OLD TIME SONGS, 1930, $3 (ends Sep-15-03 09:41:11 PDT)        3550527333 - The British Broadside Ballad and its Music by
Simpson, 1966, $39.99 (ends Sep-15-03 16:17:02 PDT)        2557169300 - 2 songbooks (HANK KEENE'S COLLECTION OF HILL-BILLY,
MOUNTAINEER, AND COWBOY SONGS, 1932 and RUSTY GILL, COWBOY SONGS,
MOUNTAIN BALLADS, 1941), $14.95 (ends Sep-15-03 17:58:15 PDT)        3550578605 - Ancient Songs and Ballads by Ritson, 1877 edition,
$13 (ends Sep-15-03 20:29:57 PDT)        3550580629 - bushranger ballads by Scott, 1976, $1.99 AU (ends
Sep-15-03 20:42:28 PDT)        3550813349 - Hell-Bound Train: A Cowboy Songbook by Ohrlin,
1974, $14.50 (ends Sep-16-03 19:52:58 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        2556548356 - Manuscript copy of the Ballad, Brave Wolfe supposed
dated 1760, $99 (ends Sep-15-03 16:13:50 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 01:06:59 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>...Unsung Andrew Blaikie, one of my heros, noted down tunes of
traditional singers for Wm. Motherwell, or Motherwell got his
tunes and somehow got permission to publish these with little
credit to Blaikie.
Where would Scottish and Irish music history be without Andrew Blaikie?
Blaikie was, by profession, a music engraver, and see 'Blaikie'
in the Irish tune index on my website for an Irish tune
collection that he engraved (with many of Jackson's tunes). He
also, somehow, came by two Scots MS of late 17th century tunes.
Search for 'Blaikie' in the Scots tunes in MSS file on my website
(SCOTMS.HTM) for 'Blaikie' and there, for BVMS and BVMSA, for the
contents of his old MSS, and what happened to them (my 'researches'
here are not all cribbed from Nelly Diem, qv, in SCOTMS.HTM).Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Harry Clifton
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 00:50:27 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>I'll go and enlist for a sailor ,or The Unfortunate tailor
Up with the lark in the morning *
Wait for the turn of the tide (1868) *I believe these have also been heard in British folk clubs, and occasionally
North American as well.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Nigel Gatherer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 05:18:02 +0100
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John Garst wrote:> (Nigel's ABC needs a repeated first line)Oops! Sorry, I transposed in rather a hurry...X:585
T:I Am a Poor, Wayfaring Stranger
S:John Garst
Z:Nigel Gatherer
L:1/8
M:3/4
K:Dm
DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3
AAc | d3 Acd | A G2 AAc | d3 Acc | A3
DDA | A3 GAG | F D2 DDA | G3 FDC | D3 |]--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 01:12:28 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<A rather close relative of the first phrase of WAYFARING STRANGER is
found, as I recall (and I'm a bit uncertain), in A. L. Lloyd's book.
It is from Bulgaria (again, I'm a bit uncertain, not having the book
at hand).>>The Bulgarian tune in the first chapter is in 5/16 and not particularly
close to Wayfaring Stranger. I think you were remembering the
Moravian-Slovak tune on p. 47, which is a lot closer by my ear.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 02:07:01 +0100
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>> T:Born in St Johnstone and burn'd in Dundee
>> S:Blaikie MS, NLS MS.1578/Mf.Sec.MSS.295
> Wow, "Bonnie Susie Cleland" tune. Blaikie collected for Motherwell,
> but my copy of Motherwell lacks the appendix where the music is.
> Did Motherwell publish this tune?As far as I know it's only in the MS - Bronson missed it.  I like it.I don't know a version of "Bonnie Susie Cleland" with short enough
lines to fit that tune, but you can edit some of the known versions
down to fit pretty well (in some cases with a literary improvement).-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 07:36:38 -0400
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Jack Campin wrote:
>
> >> T:Born in St Johnstone and burn'd in Dundee
> >> S:Blaikie MS, NLS MS.1578/Mf.Sec.MSS.295
> > Wow, "Bonnie Susie Cleland" tune. Blaikie collected for Motherwell,
> > but my copy of Motherwell lacks the appendix where the music is.
> > Did Motherwell publish this tune?
>
> As far as I know it's only in the MS - Bronson missed it.  I like it.
>
> I don't know a version of "Bonnie Susie Cleland" with short enough
> lines to fit that tune, but you can edit some of the known versions
> down to fit pretty well (in some cases with a literary improvement).
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>   *   homepage for my CD-ROMs of Scottish traditional music; free stuff on food intolerance, music and Mac logic fonts.I didn't consciously ignore the posting above when I noted that Jack's
tune isn't in Bronson. I didn't receive Jack's posting above until about
5 hours after I posted my note.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 10:25:20 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Posts in this thread flew too fast for me to keep up yesterday.John Garst wrote:
>
> I do something similar, except that I suppress the rhythm.  I plot
> log frequency (idealized to match equal temperament) vs *syllable* of
> text sung with the tune.  I put in bar lines appropriately, preceding
> the most stressed notes, first beat of each measure.  In my view,
> stressed notes are tune characteristics and rhythms are not.
>I'm lost here. Do you stressed note code the whole tune? I only do the
first 8 stressed notes.For ABCs, not stressed notes:
My ABC player program tests the number of actual notes greater than or =
to an eighth note in each of the first 4 measures. I get a good idea of
how much note splitting there is. With this note count I then make up
statements for locating stressed notes automatically, and do it for
every timing, 2/2, 2/4 (and 4/8 scored as 2/4), C = C| = 4/4, (and 8/8
scored as 4/4), 3/2, 3/4, 3/8, 6/4, 6/8, 9/8, 12/8, and 5/4. I know it
won't work perfectly every time.> john garst    [unmask]Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
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Subject: Re: For tune sleuths
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 11:12:04 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(34 lines)


>Posts in this thread flew too fast for me to keep up yesterday.
>
>John Garst wrote:
>>
>>  I do something similar, except that I suppress the rhythm.  I plot
>>  log frequency (idealized to match equal temperament) vs *syllable* of
>>  text sung with the tune.  I put in bar lines appropriately, preceding
>>  the most stressed notes, first beat of each measure.  In my view,
>>  stressed notes are tune characteristics and rhythms are not.
>>
>
>I'm lost here. Do you stressed note code the whole tune? I only do the
>first 8 stressed notes.
>...
>Bruce OlsonI don't do this for archival purposes, just for tune comparisons.
Thus, I don't generate a stressed note code routinely (though I
could).I plot the whole tune.  I plot syllables along the x-axis, alloting
equal space to each.  I plot log frequency along the y-axis.  Thus,
each syllable that has only one pitch is represented by a horizontal
bar.  I put vertical measure bars on the plot so that one can
visually find the stressed notes.  If a syllable receives more than
one pitch, then I divide the space alloted to that syllable into
fractions and plot all the pitches the syllable gets, in sequence.
For comparisons, I plot two tunes on the same graph, using bold lines
for one and hashed lines for the other, except where the two
coincide, where I use an ordinary line.  Examples are in the article
I mentioned earlier, Country Music Annual, 2002 (University Press of
Kentucky).
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 8 Sep 2003 to 9 Sep 2003 - Special issue (#2003-63)Harry Clifton
From: steve gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:23:35 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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Sorry Margaret, Different song but the sentiments are the same. Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret MacArthur" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 8 Sep 2003 to 9 Sep 2003 - Special issue
(#2003-63)Harry Clifton> Re Harry Clifton
>
> Steve Gardham wrote:
> >I am one of the Olden Time or Fifty Years Ago. (bef 1868)
>
> I sing  Fifty Years Ago as collected by HH Flanders in Bennington VT
> The first and last verses follow.
>
> How wondrous are the changes since fifty years ago
> When girls wore woolen dresses and boys wore pants of tow
> Boots were made of cowhide, socks of homespun wool
> And children did a half days work before they went to school
>
> Yes everything has altered, I cannot tell the cause
> Man is always tampering with natures wondrous laws
> What on earth we're coming to does anybody know?
> Everything has changed so much since fifty years ago
>
> Is this song related to Harry Clifton's?
>
> Margaret MacArthur
>
> Margaret MacArthur
> Box 15 MacArthur Road
> Marlboro VT 05344
> 802/254/2549
> [unmask]
> http://www.margaretmacarthur.com
> from the heart of the Green Mountains
>

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Subject: Harry Clifton
From: steve gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:38:57 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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Sorry,Margaret,
This is a different song though the sentiments are the same. The first line
is..Oh I was born some years ago when George the Third was king....and the
chorus....Yes I am one of the olden time, and may be thought too slow, but
give to me the good old days of fifty years ago. Helen Watson of Mukram
Wakes  used to sing it in british folk clubs.
Steve
               ----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret MacArthur" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 8 Sep 2003 to 9 Sep 2003 - Special issue
(#2003-63)Harry Clifton> Re Harry Clifton
>
> Steve Gardham wrote:
> >I am one of the Olden Time or Fifty Years Ago. (bef 1868)
>
> I sing  Fifty Years Ago as collected by HH Flanders in Bennington VT
> The first and last verses follow.
>
> How wondrous are the changes since fifty years ago
> When girls wore woolen dresses and boys wore pants of tow
> Boots were made of cowhide, socks of homespun wool
> And children did a half days work before they went to school
>
> Yes everything has altered, I cannot tell the cause
> Man is always tampering with natures wondrous laws
> What on earth we're coming to does anybody know?
> Everything has changed so much since fifty years ago
>
> Is this song related to Harry Clifton's?
>
> Margaret MacArthur
>
> Margaret MacArthur
> Box 15 MacArthur Road
> Marlboro VT 05344
> 802/254/2549
> [unmask]
> http://www.margaretmacarthur.com
> from the heart of the Green Mountains
>

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Subject: Harry Clifton
From: Steve Gardham <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:05:48 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Bruce, re Lannigan's Ball, Undoubtedly the same song although Clifton's has
two ns and his version has 7 verses as opposed to Pastor's 6. There is no
chorus to Clifton's version ..first line 'In the town of Athy one Jeremy
Lannigan battered away till he hadn't a pound' The tune is pretty much the
same I'd say but I'm not an expert at music reading (I'm an ear musician)
and the key is E flat (three flats?)It is in jig time and an attempt at
singing it through  it reminds me of an Irish tune called Nell Flaherty's
Drake. The cover has on it a portrait/ litho of Clifton in Irish character
wielding a stick, with a ceili in the background. Also underneath it
says 'Written expressly  by D.K.Gavan, The Galway Poet, for Harry Clifton.'
Inside it says arranged by John Candy.
Hope this is of some use. Steve.

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Subject: Re: Harry Clifton
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 14:59:28 -0400
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Steve Gardham wrote:
>> singing it through  it reminds me of an Irish tune called Nell >Flaherty's Drake. I have that around somewhere.> wielding a stick, with a ceili in the background. Also underneath it
> says 'Written expressly  by D.K.Gavan, The Galway Poet, for Harry Clifton.'Thanks Steve,That's going to take a while to digest.
Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 00:58:40 +0100
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> Jack, how about giving us a title list of the tunes in Blaikie's MS?
> Not all the tunes Blaikie collected got into Motherwell's appendix,
> and these are among the earliest Scots traditional tunes. (Also C. K.
> Sharpe's tunes which I know you've seen).There is more than one C.K. Sharpe MS, which do you mean?Here's Blaikie as requested...Blaikie MS (MS.1578)MS has the tunes numbered, but some alternate sets or nameless tunes don't
get numbers.  The owner who did the pencil annotations (William Motherwell?)
renumbered them all. Pencil notes are in (...) parentheses, my notes are in
[...].To Sir Walter Scott/ of Abbotsford Bart./ from his most obedient/ and very
humble servant/ Andw. Blaikie/ 27. July 1824. [pencil note in Murdoch
Henderson's writing: "1822 paper",  but I can't see any watermarks]1  Sweet Willie
-  Sweet Willie - a different sett
2  The bonny brow or In January last
3  Jocky wed a owing go
4  Jockie went to the wood or Jockie went too
5  Jockie drucken bauble
6  Ballou
7  Honest Lucky
8  Drumlanrick's Air
9  The lad's gane
10 Jock the Laird's brother
11 Bonie Nanie
12 The Capita me
13 Women's work will never be done
14 The Beed to me
15 Abbay hills Rant
16 Hiland Ladie
17 Put up thy dagor Jennie
18 My Lady Errol's Lament
19 My Lady Monteith's Lament
20 Montrose Lynes
21 Montrosse March
22 Bonnie Lassie
23 Bonny Christon
24 Lady Binney's Lilt
25 New Corn rigs
26 Mack Beth
27 Franklin is fled far away
28 Song with text [Ye woods and groves and purling streams][Blaikie's note at this point:] The foregoing 28 tunes are taken
from two M.S. books bearing date 1683 and 1692.29 [untitled]
30 Go to the windward my love (Beautiful)
31 And when we part we'll meet again (pretty)
32 The cruel Father (pretty)
33 There came a Maid (pretty)
34 [untitled] (pretty)
35 [untitled]
36 [untitled] (pretty)
37 Johnie of Airlegreen
38 Our Jean's aye in the right o't
38 [untitled]
40 A Lady walking in her garden (very nearly the same with ance crowdie twice crowdie)
41 [untitled] (this seems a dancing tune)
42 O will ye marry my daughter Janet
43 The silly bit chicken cast it a pickle and it will grow mickle and it will do gude
44 The Douglas Tragedy
45 [untitled] (I have heard the Broom of the Cowdenknows sung
               to this No.45. In Smith's collection May Colvin)
46 [untitled] (pretty)
47 [untitled] (ordinary)
48 Kate Carnagie
-  A different set of Kate Carnagie
49 Matthew Malone (is this not Irish by its name?)
50 The clairty Cook of Torwoodlee (the same as Elsey Marlie)
51 The three Maries (not pretty, & vulgar)
-  The three Maries - a little different (do.)
52 The Lass of Lochryan (not nearly so good as the common one)
-  The poor man's labour's never done
53 The Knight in Jessemont (not ugly)
54 Bonny Billie (The battle of Bothwell Brigg)
55 The King of Fairies or The Roses they smell sweetly (Lord Maxwell's goodnight)
-  The King of Fairies  a different set
56 Little Jock Elliot or Whae dare meddle wi' me
57 The Jew's daughter (very pretty & will do for some other ballad)
58 Lady Margerie (almost the same as Lammikin & will serve as 2. part to it & prevent monotony)
59 Drowzy Lane
60 Young Essex (very pretty)
61 Taffy or Irae Corona
62 Earl Landale (set in vol 1st)
-  Lord Ingram - a slight variation of the above (2d. part to the above)
63 Thomas the Rhymer (set already in Vol 1st. of Ballads)
64 The Mill dams of Binnorie (Set in Vol. 1st. after the other tune)
65 Oxter my Lassie
66 Awake my fairest creature
67 The French Gallerie O (is this not English. Words wanted)
68 Earl Aboyne or Peggy Irvine
69 The Lochmaben Harper (set already)
70 Brinny O Linn (Irish?-)
71 Earl Aboyne
72 Dysmal
73 When first I came to Edinburro
74 Niddlety noddlety
75 Lord Johnny Scott (a little different from our set of John the Little Scott)
76 Janet of Carterhaugh (not so good as our own set)
77 Duncan Swan
78 Fause Foodrage (mainly the same with ours)
79 Argyle's Courtship
80 Sally Green
81 [untitled] (very pretty and likely to have a relationship to No. 85 opposite)
82 I'll dye my Ribbons
83 Hey burdy croon
84 There was a youthful Lawyer
85 Born in St. Johnstone & burn'd in Dundee (very beautiful, Q. are
                                             the words fit & to be had)
86 Love will find out the way
87 The winter it is past and the summer's come at last (pretty)
88 Thus I gain'd my pretty fair maid (same tune as There was
                                      a Lawyer & a sawyer)
90 The wee wedding
91 The wee wedding
92 The fit's come o'er me now
93 [untitled] (pretty I think)
94 Robin Hood & the Beggar (What are the words. The tune seems good.)
95 Cock Robin's Testament (chorus words of this wanted)
96 Cock Robin's Testament - a different air
97 Rosanna - In Oxford lived a Lady fair
98 The cruel Father (pretty. same as No. 33)
   [note in Murdoch Henderson's writing: same
    treble but different bass from no. 33]
99 The Spanish Lady (a queer tune. what are the words)
100 O what a foolish Girl was I
101 He chac'd me to my Daddie's door
102 Good Lord Scroope alias Hughie Graham (not so pretty as our own set)
103 The Weaver Lad
104 The Ramalies (not ugly)
105 Lambkin
106 King William going out a hunting (pretty. what words?)
107 Ye sit in the sun sae louzy
108 When I was a young man
109 It fell upon a certain day
110 A Lady walking in her garden (not ugly)
111 The three Maries (very pretty for 2nd. part v. the other book p.1)
112 The King & the Tinker (pretty)
113 Go fetch me Lord Thomas (not ugly - what words has it?)
114 [untitled] (pretty)
115 The land of fair Virginia O (not unlike the other but the
                                 common one is [?] this magic [?])
116 Johnnie Armstrong (neither of these so pretty as our own I think)
117 Johnnie Armstrong - a little different from the above
118 [untitled]
119 A penny worth of wit
120 [untitled]
121 And a begging we will go
122 My bosom burns
123 Herd the Cows
124 Gude e'en to ye auld man
125 Katie Scroggie
126 Earl of Crawford (not ugly)
127 Johnny of Braidislee (mainly the same as our own but not so good)
128 Tammas has ridden & Tammas has runAnd here's the other tune for comparison...X:1
T:untitled no.81
S:NLS MS.1578
Z:Jack Campin 2003
M:3/4
L:1/4
K:E Minor
B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B    G  F/E/|FD \
B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B/A/ G  F   |E2||
B |d ^c B   |e B  d|^c    B  G   |FD \
B,|d ^c B   |e B  A| B    e ^d   |e2
B |d ^c d   |e B  d|^c    B  G   |FD \
B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B/A/ G  F   |E2|]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:04:26 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

text/plain(208 lines)


Jack Campin wrote:
>
> > Jack, how about giving us a title list of the tunes in Blaikie's MS?
> > Not all the tunes Blaikie collected got into Motherwell's appendix,
> > and these are among the earliest Scots traditional tunes. (Also C. K.
> > Sharpe's tunes which I know you've seen).
>
> There is more than one C.K. Sharpe MS, which do you mean?
>
> Here's Blaikie as requested...
>
> Blaikie MS (MS.1578)
>
> MS has the tunes numbered, but some alternate sets or nameless tunes don't
> get numbers.  The owner who did the pencil annotations (William Motherwell?)
> renumbered them all. Pencil notes are in (...) parentheses, my notes are in
> [...].
>
> To Sir Walter Scott/ of Abbotsford Bart./ from his most obedient/ and very
> humble servant/ Andw. Blaikie/ 27. July 1824. [pencil note in Murdoch
> Henderson's writing: "1822 paper",  but I can't see any watermarks]
>
> 1  Sweet Willie
> -  Sweet Willie - a different sett
> 2  The bonny brow or In January last
> 3  Jocky wed a owing go
> 4  Jockie went to the wood or Jockie went too
> 5  Jockie drucken bauble
> 6  Ballou
> 7  Honest Lucky
> 8  Drumlanrick's Air
> 9  The lad's gane
> 10 Jock the Laird's brother
> 11 Bonie Nanie
> 12 The Capita me
> 13 Women's work will never be done
> 14 The Beed to me
> 15 Abbay hills Rant
> 16 Hiland Ladie
> 17 Put up thy dagor Jennie
> 18 My Lady Errol's Lament
> 19 My Lady Monteith's Lament
> 20 Montrose Lynes
> 21 Montrosse March
> 22 Bonnie Lassie
> 23 Bonny Christon
> 24 Lady Binney's Lilt
> 25 New Corn rigs
> 26 Mack Beth
> 27 Franklin is fled far away
> 28 Song with text [Ye woods and groves and purling streams]
>
> [Blaikie's note at this point:] The foregoing 28 tunes are taken
> from two M.S. books bearing date 1683 and 1692.
>
> 29 [untitled]
> 30 Go to the windward my love (Beautiful)
> 31 And when we part we'll meet again (pretty)
> 32 The cruel Father (pretty)
> 33 There came a Maid (pretty)
> 34 [untitled] (pretty)
> 35 [untitled]
> 36 [untitled] (pretty)
> 37 Johnie of Airlegreen
> 38 Our Jean's aye in the right o't
> 38 [untitled]
> 40 A Lady walking in her garden (very nearly the same with ance crowdie twice crowdie)
> 41 [untitled] (this seems a dancing tune)
> 42 O will ye marry my daughter Janet
> 43 The silly bit chicken cast it a pickle and it will grow mickle and it will do gude
> 44 The Douglas Tragedy
> 45 [untitled] (I have heard the Broom of the Cowdenknows sung
>                to this No.45. In Smith's collection May Colvin)
> 46 [untitled] (pretty)
> 47 [untitled] (ordinary)
> 48 Kate Carnagie
> -  A different set of Kate Carnagie
> 49 Matthew Malone (is this not Irish by its name?)
> 50 The clairty Cook of Torwoodlee (the same as Elsey Marlie)
> 51 The three Maries (not pretty, & vulgar)
> -  The three Maries - a little different (do.)
> 52 The Lass of Lochryan (not nearly so good as the common one)
> -  The poor man's labour's never done
> 53 The Knight in Jessemont (not ugly)
> 54 Bonny Billie (The battle of Bothwell Brigg)
> 55 The King of Fairies or The Roses they smell sweetly (Lord Maxwell's goodnight)
> -  The King of Fairies  a different set
> 56 Little Jock Elliot or Whae dare meddle wi' me
> 57 The Jew's daughter (very pretty & will do for some other ballad)
> 58 Lady Margerie (almost the same as Lammikin & will serve as 2. part to it & prevent monotony)
> 59 Drowzy Lane
> 60 Young Essex (very pretty)
> 61 Taffy or Irae Corona
> 62 Earl Landale (set in vol 1st)
> -  Lord Ingram - a slight variation of the above (2d. part to the above)
> 63 Thomas the Rhymer (set already in Vol 1st. of Ballads)
> 64 The Mill dams of Binnorie (Set in Vol. 1st. after the other tune)
> 65 Oxter my Lassie
> 66 Awake my fairest creature
> 67 The French Gallerie O (is this not English. Words wanted)
> 68 Earl Aboyne or Peggy Irvine
> 69 The Lochmaben Harper (set already)
> 70 Brinny O Linn (Irish?-)
> 71 Earl Aboyne
> 72 Dysmal
> 73 When first I came to Edinburro
> 74 Niddlety noddlety
> 75 Lord Johnny Scott (a little different from our set of John the Little Scott)
> 76 Janet of Carterhaugh (not so good as our own set)
> 77 Duncan Swan
> 78 Fause Foodrage (mainly the same with ours)
> 79 Argyle's Courtship
> 80 Sally Green
> 81 [untitled] (very pretty and likely to have a relationship to No. 85 opposite)
> 82 I'll dye my Ribbons
> 83 Hey burdy croon
> 84 There was a youthful Lawyer
> 85 Born in St. Johnstone & burn'd in Dundee (very beautiful, Q. are
>                                              the words fit & to be had)
> 86 Love will find out the way
> 87 The winter it is past and the summer's come at last (pretty)
> 88 Thus I gain'd my pretty fair maid (same tune as There was
>                                       a Lawyer & a sawyer)
> 90 The wee wedding
> 91 The wee wedding
> 92 The fit's come o'er me now
> 93 [untitled] (pretty I think)
> 94 Robin Hood & the Beggar (What are the words. The tune seems good.)
> 95 Cock Robin's Testament (chorus words of this wanted)
> 96 Cock Robin's Testament - a different air
> 97 Rosanna - In Oxford lived a Lady fair
> 98 The cruel Father (pretty. same as No. 33)
>    [note in Murdoch Henderson's writing: same
>     treble but different bass from no. 33]
> 99 The Spanish Lady (a queer tune. what are the words)
> 100 O what a foolish Girl was I
> 101 He chac'd me to my Daddie's door
> 102 Good Lord Scroope alias Hughie Graham (not so pretty as our own set)
> 103 The Weaver Lad
> 104 The Ramalies (not ugly)
> 105 Lambkin
> 106 King William going out a hunting (pretty. what words?)
> 107 Ye sit in the sun sae louzy
> 108 When I was a young man
> 109 It fell upon a certain day
> 110 A Lady walking in her garden (not ugly)
> 111 The three Maries (very pretty for 2nd. part v. the other book p.1)
> 112 The King & the Tinker (pretty)
> 113 Go fetch me Lord Thomas (not ugly - what words has it?)
> 114 [untitled] (pretty)
> 115 The land of fair Virginia O (not unlike the other but the
>                                  common one is [?] this magic [?])
> 116 Johnnie Armstrong (neither of these so pretty as our own I think)
> 117 Johnnie Armstrong - a little different from the above
> 118 [untitled]
> 119 A penny worth of wit
> 120 [untitled]
> 121 And a begging we will go
> 122 My bosom burns
> 123 Herd the Cows
> 124 Gude e'en to ye auld man
> 125 Katie Scroggie
> 126 Earl of Crawford (not ugly)
> 127 Johnny of Braidislee (mainly the same as our own but not so good)
> 128 Tammas has ridden & Tammas has run
>
> And here's the other tune for comparison...
>
> X:1
> T:untitled no.81
> S:NLS MS.1578
> Z:Jack Campin 2003
> M:3/4
> L:1/4
> K:E Minor
> B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B    G  F/E/|FD \
> B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B/A/ G  F   |E2||
> B |d ^c B   |e B  d|^c    B  G   |FD \
> B,|d ^c B   |e B  A| B    e ^d   |e2
> B |d ^c d   |e B  d|^c    B  G   |FD \
> B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B/A/ G  F   |E2|]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
> ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---Many thanks, JackOnes from Blaikie's MSS of 1683 and 1692 are in the SCOTSMS.HTM file on
my website. There's a lot of overlap with the Leyden MS of 1692.Among thr later ones I recognize some broadside titles or 1st lines.
I'll work on identifying the tunes, but I'm committed to other business
tomorrow, at least.C. K. Sharpe's tunes I don't have much of an account of. I'm intrested
in any he himself might have collected, if these can be sorted out from
those added by Lady John Scott, to see if any are for the songs in his
'A Ballad Book' (without music).Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:34:37 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

text/plain(45 lines)


Jack Campin wrote:
>
> > Jack, how about giving us a title list of the tunes in Blaikie's MS?
> > Not all the tunes Blaikie collected got into Motherwell's appendix,
> > and these are among the earliest Scots traditional tunes. (Also C. K.
> > Sharpe's tunes which I know you've seen).
>
> There is more than one C.K. Sharpe MS, which do you mean?
>
> Here's Blaikie as requested...
>
> Blaikie MS (MS.1578)
>
> MS has the tunes numbered, but some alternate sets or nameless tunes don't
> get numbers.  The owner who did the pencil annotations (William Motherwell?)
> renumbered them all. Pencil notes are in (...) parentheses, my notes are in
> [...].
>[Crazy internet. This is s second try to send this to ballad-l as a
Reply, the first just came back to me. Ed Cray, did you get the STS
email address I sent you earlier today? It just came back to me, but
still addressed to you.]See 'Blaikie in the file SCOTMS.HTM on my website for what I could
piece together on Blaikie's MSS of 1683 and 1692 (both originals now
lost). Wm. Chappell, PMOT, said the latter MS was for bass viol, had 112
tunes, and contained the statement 'Lady Katherine Boyd aught this
book.' Wighton Library website has a facsimile of a page of a transcript
of one of the Blaikie MSS. John Glen's transcripts from Blaikie, 1692,
aren't from Blaikie's copies you have found, but apparently from the
Wighton partial transcript, and from the 112 tunes that Chappell said
were in the MS many are missing, so we might find some that Blaikie
copied that didn't get into the Wighton partial transcript. Wm. Dauny,
'Ancient Scottish Melodies', 1838, gave a few tunes not in the partial
transcript.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 23:06:27 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

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In Blaikie's transcripts, i.e., Jack Campin's list, and not previously
known to be in Blaikie's MSS of 1683, or 1692.The Capita me: Blaikie transcript
Montrosse March; Blaikie transcript
Bonnie Lassie; Blaikie transcript
Song with text [Ye woods and groves and purling streams]; Blaikie
transcriptMany others are known from the Wighton partial transcript.
For the ones which have (and where) and which haven't been
reprinted see file SCOTMS.HTM on my website. Just updated, where
'Blaikie transcript' denotes those in Jack's list.Many ot the tunes are familiar under later titles, e.g., Woman's work is
never done (also in Lyden MS) is later The Black Eagle; Jock the laird's
brother is Auld Rob Morris (both tune and person); Montrose Lynes is
I'll never love the more=[Scottish] Chevy Chase, etc.Bruce Olson

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:28:46 -0700
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Jack:This is very valuable, especially as it early dates the tunes given.  Motherwell printed some of the tunes, but is there any effort afoot to print the entire manuscript?Can it be copied/Xeroxed/scanned?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 4:58 pm
Subject: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> > Jack, how about giving us a title list of the tunes in Blaikie's MS?
> > Not all the tunes Blaikie collected got into Motherwell's appendix,
> > and these are among the earliest Scots traditional tunes. (Also C. K.
> > Sharpe's tunes which I know you've seen).
>
> There is more than one C.K. Sharpe MS, which do you mean?
>
> Here's Blaikie as requested...
>
> Blaikie MS (MS.1578)
>
> MS has the tunes numbered, but some alternate sets or nameless tunes don't
> get numbers.  The owner who did the pencil annotations (William Motherwell?)
> renumbered them all. Pencil notes are in (...) parentheses, my notes are in
> [...].
>
> To Sir Walter Scott/ of Abbotsford Bart./ from his most obedient/ and very
> humble servant/ Andw. Blaikie/ 27. July 1824. [pencil note in Murdoch
> Henderson's writing: "1822 paper",  but I can't see any watermarks]
>
> 1  Sweet Willie
> -  Sweet Willie - a different sett
> 2  The bonny brow or In January last
> 3  Jocky wed a owing go
> 4  Jockie went to the wood or Jockie went too
> 5  Jockie drucken bauble
> 6  Ballou
> 7  Honest Lucky
> 8  Drumlanrick's Air
> 9  The lad's gane
> 10 Jock the Laird's brother
> 11 Bonie Nanie
> 12 The Capita me
> 13 Women's work will never be done
> 14 The Beed to me
> 15 Abbay hills Rant
> 16 Hiland Ladie
> 17 Put up thy dagor Jennie
> 18 My Lady Errol's Lament
> 19 My Lady Monteith's Lament
> 20 Montrose Lynes
> 21 Montrosse March
> 22 Bonnie Lassie
> 23 Bonny Christon
> 24 Lady Binney's Lilt
> 25 New Corn rigs
> 26 Mack Beth
> 27 Franklin is fled far away
> 28 Song with text [Ye woods and groves and purling streams]
>
> [Blaikie's note at this point:] The foregoing 28 tunes are taken
> from two M.S. books bearing date 1683 and 1692.
>
> 29 [untitled]
> 30 Go to the windward my love (Beautiful)
> 31 And when we part we'll meet again (pretty)
> 32 The cruel Father (pretty)
> 33 There came a Maid (pretty)
> 34 [untitled] (pretty)
> 35 [untitled]
> 36 [untitled] (pretty)
> 37 Johnie of Airlegreen
> 38 Our Jean's aye in the right o't
> 38 [untitled]
> 40 A Lady walking in her garden (very nearly the same with ance crowdie
> twice crowdie)
> 41 [untitled] (this seems a dancing tune)
> 42 O will ye marry my daughter Janet
> 43 The silly bit chicken cast it a pickle and it will grow mickle and it
> will do gude
> 44 The Douglas Tragedy
> 45 [untitled] (I have heard the Broom of the Cowdenknows sung
>               to this No.45. In Smith's collection May Colvin)
> 46 [untitled] (pretty)
> 47 [untitled] (ordinary)
> 48 Kate Carnagie
> -  A different set of Kate Carnagie
> 49 Matthew Malone (is this not Irish by its name?)
> 50 The clairty Cook of Torwoodlee (the same as Elsey Marlie)
> 51 The three Maries (not pretty, & vulgar)
> -  The three Maries - a little different (do.)
> 52 The Lass of Lochryan (not nearly so good as the common one)
> -  The poor man's labour's never done
> 53 The Knight in Jessemont (not ugly)
> 54 Bonny Billie (The battle of Bothwell Brigg)
> 55 The King of Fairies or The Roses they smell sweetly (Lord Maxwell's
> goodnight)-  The King of Fairies  a different set
> 56 Little Jock Elliot or Whae dare meddle wi' me
> 57 The Jew's daughter (very pretty & will do for some other ballad)
> 58 Lady Margerie (almost the same as Lammikin & will serve as 2. part to
> it & prevent monotony)
> 59 Drowzy Lane
> 60 Young Essex (very pretty)
> 61 Taffy or Irae Corona
> 62 Earl Landale (set in vol 1st)
> -  Lord Ingram - a slight variation of the above (2d. part to the above)
> 63 Thomas the Rhymer (set already in Vol 1st. of Ballads)
> 64 The Mill dams of Binnorie (Set in Vol. 1st. after the other tune)
> 65 Oxter my Lassie
> 66 Awake my fairest creature
> 67 The French Gallerie O (is this not English. Words wanted)
> 68 Earl Aboyne or Peggy Irvine
> 69 The Lochmaben Harper (set already)
> 70 Brinny O Linn (Irish?-)
> 71 Earl Aboyne
> 72 Dysmal
> 73 When first I came to Edinburro
> 74 Niddlety noddlety
> 75 Lord Johnny Scott (a little different from our set of John the Little
> Scott)76 Janet of Carterhaugh (not so good as our own set)
> 77 Duncan Swan
> 78 Fause Foodrage (mainly the same with ours)
> 79 Argyle's Courtship
> 80 Sally Green
> 81 [untitled] (very pretty and likely to have a relationship to No. 85
> opposite)82 I'll dye my Ribbons
> 83 Hey burdy croon
> 84 There was a youthful Lawyer
> 85 Born in St. Johnstone & burn'd in Dundee (very beautiful, Q. are
>                                             the words fit & to be had)
> 86 Love will find out the way
> 87 The winter it is past and the summer's come at last (pretty)
> 88 Thus I gain'd my pretty fair maid (same tune as There was
>                                      a Lawyer & a sawyer)
> 90 The wee wedding
> 91 The wee wedding
> 92 The fit's come o'er me now
> 93 [untitled] (pretty I think)
> 94 Robin Hood & the Beggar (What are the words. The tune seems good.)
> 95 Cock Robin's Testament (chorus words of this wanted)
> 96 Cock Robin's Testament - a different air
> 97 Rosanna - In Oxford lived a Lady fair
> 98 The cruel Father (pretty. same as No. 33)
>   [note in Murdoch Henderson's writing: same
>    treble but different bass from no. 33]
> 99 The Spanish Lady (a queer tune. what are the words)
> 100 O what a foolish Girl was I
> 101 He chac'd me to my Daddie's door
> 102 Good Lord Scroope alias Hughie Graham (not so pretty as our own set)
> 103 The Weaver Lad
> 104 The Ramalies (not ugly)
> 105 Lambkin
> 106 King William going out a hunting (pretty. what words?)
> 107 Ye sit in the sun sae louzy
> 108 When I was a young man
> 109 It fell upon a certain day
> 110 A Lady walking in her garden (not ugly)
> 111 The three Maries (very pretty for 2nd. part v. the other book p.1)
> 112 The King & the Tinker (pretty)
> 113 Go fetch me Lord Thomas (not ugly - what words has it?)
> 114 [untitled] (pretty)
> 115 The land of fair Virginia O (not unlike the other but the
>                                 common one is [?] this magic [?])
> 116 Johnnie Armstrong (neither of these so pretty as our own I think)
> 117 Johnnie Armstrong - a little different from the above
> 118 [untitled]
> 119 A penny worth of wit
> 120 [untitled]
> 121 And a begging we will go
> 122 My bosom burns
> 123 Herd the Cows
> 124 Gude e'en to ye auld man
> 125 Katie Scroggie
> 126 Earl of Crawford (not ugly)
> 127 Johnny of Braidislee (mainly the same as our own but not so good)
> 128 Tammas has ridden & Tammas has run
>
>
> And here's the other tune for comparison...
>
> X:1
> T:untitled no.81
> S:NLS MS.1578
> Z:Jack Campin 2003
> M:3/4
> L:1/4
> K:E Minor
> B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B    G  F/E/|FD \
> B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B/A/ G  F   |E2||
> B |d ^c B   |e B  d|^c    B  G   |FD \
> B,|d ^c B   |e B  A| B    e ^d   |e2
> B |d ^c d   |e B  d|^c    B  G   |FD \
> B,|E  G F/E/|F d ^c| B/A/ G  F   |E2|]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <" target="l">http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance
> data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
> ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <-
> --
>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 10 Sep 2003 21:49:01 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(33 lines)


Folks:Bruce and Jack's wexchanges lead me to ask if there is any "history" of Anglo-Scots-Irish folksong collection comparable to Dorson's _The British Folklorists?_  Hustvedt's _Ballad Books and Ballad Men_ is good, so far as it goes, but one Andrew Blaikie is not listed in the index.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 8:06 pm
Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> In Blaikie's transcripts, i.e., Jack Campin's list, and not previously
> known to be in Blaikie's MSS of 1683, or 1692.
>
> The Capita me: Blaikie transcript
> Montrosse March; Blaikie transcript
> Bonnie Lassie; Blaikie transcript
> Song with text [Ye woods and groves and purling streams]; Blaikie
> transcript
>
> Many others are known from the Wighton partial transcript.
> For the ones which have (and where) and which haven't been
> reprinted see file SCOTMS.HTM on my website. Just updated, where
> 'Blaikie transcript' denotes those in Jack's list.
>
>
> Many ot the tunes are familiar under later titles, e.g., Woman's work is
> never done (also in Lyden MS) is later The Black Eagle; Jock the laird's
> brother is Auld Rob Morris (both tune and person); Montrose Lynes is
> I'll never love the more=[Scottish] Chevy Chase, etc.
>
> Bruce Olson
>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:09:40 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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> This is very valuable, especially as it early dates the tunes given.
> Motherwell printed some of the tunes, but is there any effort afoot
> to print the entire manuscript?Not unless I do it, I guess.  I had in mind publishing a few Scottish
MSS on CD-ROM using the same technology I've already used, but hadn't
thought of this one; it would be a couple of weeks' work and only
feasible if I could find some funding for it, as it's hardly going to
sell in huge numbers.> Can it be copied/Xeroxed/scanned?Yes, but it won't be cheap.  There are microfilms about; these will
lose the pencil annotations (you've got my transcriptions of them,
anyway) but the music calligraphy is clear enough for microfilming,
the binding lies flat, and I don't remember seeing a single correction
or ambiguous pitch that might need close-up physical examination to
sort out.www.nls.uk will give reprographic prices somewhere.  Since they've
already microfilmed it, second-generation copies might be cheaper.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: anybody seen this elsewhere?
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:19:01 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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From the NLS Glen.370 copy of James Porteous's "A Collection of Strathspeys,
Reels & Jigs, Respectfully Dedicated to Lady Jardine of Applegarth"
[Edinburgh, 1822]; this copy has "Applegarth" handwritten on the titlepage
so it must have belonged to the family that sponsored it.Porteous not only dedicated tunes in this collection to remote members
of the Jardine family with quite extraordinary obsequiousness, he also
wrote a tune to commemorate his namesake deservedly hanged in the riot
of 1737.  There is a tune of his in this book called "The Old Spedling
Castle Ghost's Dance", relating to the legend below.  These two bits of
paper were inserted much later, though.Newspaper clipping (dated on back, Evening News, 6th July [1953? - illegible]:A Dumfriesshire Ghost Story
===========================Spedlin's Tower, a grim old castle in Dumfriesshire, on the southwest bank
of the Annan, is the scene of a ghost story of great local fame, and
supported by excellent traditional authority.  In the time of Charles II,
Sir Alexander Jardin confined in the dungeon of this castle a miller named
Porteous, who was suspected of arson.  Absentmindedly carrying off the
keys of the vault, the miller was starved to death.  No sooner was he dead
than his ghost began to torment the household.  But Sir Alexander procured
a black-letter Bible, and so long as that remained in the house the ghost
could not move out of the vault where Porteous had died.  Here its screams
were frequently heard at night.  "Let me out, let me out," it would cry,
"for I'm dyin' o' hunger."  When the family repaired to a newer mansion,
Jardine Hall, on the other side of the river, the Bible was left behind to
keep the restless spirit in order.  Once, however, it was sent to Edinburgh
to be rebound, when the ghost crossed the river, and played such mad pranks
in the new house - pulling the lord and lady out of bed, &c. - that the
Bible was recalled at once.  Early in the present century, however, the
Bible was taken to Jardine Hall without any unpleasant circumstances.Ballad in probably-early-20th-century writing on paper of probably the
same age:The Prisoner of Spedlins
========================To Edinburgh, to Edinburgh,
The Jardine he maun ride;
He locks the gates behind him,
For lang he means to bide.And he, nor any of his train,
While minding thus to flit,
Thinks of the weary prisoner,
Deep in the castle pit.They were not gane a day, a day,
A day but barely four,
When neighbours spoke of dismal cries,
Were heard frae Spedlins Tower.They mingled wi' the sigh of trees,
And the thud-thud o' the lin;
But nae ane thocht 'twas a deein' man
That made that eldritch din.At last they mind the gipsy loon
In dungeon lay unfed;
But ere the castle key was got,
The gipsy loon was dead.They found the wretch stretch'd out at length
Upon the cold cold stone,
With starting eyes and hollow cheek,
And arms peeled to the bone!----------------------------------Now Spedlins is an eerie house,
For oft at mirk midnight
The wail of Porteous' starving cry
Fills a' that house wi' fright.'O let me out, o let me out,
Sharp hunger cuts me sore;
If ye suffer me to perish so,
I'll haunt you evermore!'O sad sad was the Jardine then,
His heart was sorely smit;
Till he could wish himself had been
Left in that deadly pit.But, "Cheer ye,' cried his lady fair,
'Tis purpose makes the sin;
And where the heart has had no part,
God holds his creature clean.'The Jardine sought a holy man
To lay that vexing sprite;
And for a week that holy man
Was praying day and night.And all that time in Spedlins house
Was held a solemn fast,
Till the cries waxed low, and the boglebo
In the deep Red Sea was cast.----------------------------------There lies a Bible in Spedlins ha',
And while it there shall lie,
Nae Jardine can tormented be
With Porteous' starving cry.But Applegarth's an altered man -
He is no longer gay;
The thought o' Porteous clings to him
Unto his dying day.It maybe isn't too surprising that this wasn't anthologized down
the ages, but has anybody seen *any* reference to it elsewhere?
Or any other ballad on the same legend?  (I was talking to Roddy
Martine a while ago about haunting traditions in Scotland - he's
just published a book about present-day experiences of ghosts -
and he'd never heard of this yarn, which for somebody with his
connections to the Scottish landed gentry is saying something).Is the Red Sea noted as a sort of Sellafield for boglebos?  And
if so why don't they stay put after being reprocessed by holy men?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:21:39 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> In Blaikie's transcripts, i.e., Jack Campin's list, and not previously
> known to be in Blaikie's MSS of 1683, or 1692.
>
>Blaikie's MSS of 1683 and 1692 were said to have much the same contents,
and Blaikie is said to have lost the earlier one.
Ballad-Lers in England. Anyone got any ideas about where to look for Wm.
Chappell's partial transcript of the Blaikie MS of 1692?
Chappell said the MS contained the tune "God Save The King", of which
there's no mention in any other commentary on the MS.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 09:20:43 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Let's be blunt. There are a few traditional tunes scattered here
and there before Andrew Blaikie's time, but Andrew Blaikie was
the first to systematically collect traditional tunes for songs
and ballads in the English language. The greater part that he
collected have not yet been published.Now off to [EASMES's] Kate Van Winkle Keller's home for a discussion.
I no sooner find that she lives nearby than she plans to move
away.I'm hoping that she can point out (via an unpublished thesis) a
translation to modern musical notation of "The Gaberlunzie Man"
in the Balcarres MS, c 1700. That would put song and tune to c
1700, earlier than now known. Blaikie's old MSS didn't have it
(nor does Leyden MS, 1692) as far as we know.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: edward cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 08:45:17 -0700
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Folks:I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would otherwise never see.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, September 11, 2003 0:09 am
Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)> > This is very valuable, especially as it early dates the tunes given.
> > Motherwell printed some of the tunes, but is there any effort afoot
> > to print the entire manuscript?
>
> Not unless I do it, I guess.  I had in mind publishing a few Scottish
> MSS on CD-ROM using the same technology I've already used, but hadn't
> thought of this one; it would be a couple of weeks' work and only
> feasible if I could find some funding for it, as it's hardly going to
> sell in huge numbers.
>
>
> > Can it be copied/Xeroxed/scanned?
>
> Yes, but it won't be cheap.  There are microfilms about; these will
> lose the pencil annotations (you've got my transcriptions of them,
> anyway) but the music calligraphy is clear enough for microfilming,
> the binding lies flat, and I don't remember seeing a single correction
> or ambiguous pitch that might need close-up physical examination to
> sort out.
>
> www.nls.uk will give reprographic prices somewhere.  Since they've
> already microfilmed it, second-generation copies might be cheaper.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <" target="l">http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance
> data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
> ---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <-
> --
>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 11:40:58 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: edward cray <[unmask]><<I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
otherwise never see.>>Yup. Can't do much but I'll do what I can.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 10:34:17 -0700
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On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 11:40:58AM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: edward cray <[unmask]>
>
> <<I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
> Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
> otherwise never see.>>
>
> Yup. Can't do much but I'll do what I can.        And me too, please -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Key of the Cellar
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:35:40 -0400
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I mentioned "Key of the Cellar/Bob and Joan" here in a recent post.
{In a reply to John Garst on indicted timing ans which notes were stress
notes)Thanks to Kate Van Winkle Keller for the loan of a xerox of a
manuscript, below is an ABC of the earliest known copy of it.
The bawdy "Rakes of Stoney Batter" which gave the tune it most
popular title after c 1775, "Bob and Joan", is in the Scarce
Songs 1 file on my website. In the Irish tune index on my website
are some other titles for the tune, but they don't take us to
songs to the tune, like Samuel Woodworth's "Patriotic Diggers",
and a school song, if I remember correctly, of Amherst.Sorry, the dance directions can't be clearly seen on the xerox copy, and
aren't given here.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:43:09 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Let's be blunt. There are a few traditional tunes scattered here
> and there before Andrew Blaikie's time, but Andrew Blaikie was
> the first to systematically collect traditional tunes for songs
> and ballads in the English language. The greater part that he
> collected have not yet been published.I may have gone a bit overboard here, Can any of the English Ballad-L
subscribers tell when the Rev. John Broadwood started collecting
traditional tunes. First published in 1843 if I remember correctly.> Now off to [EASMES's] Kate Van Winkle Keller's home for a discussion.
> I no sooner find that she lives nearby than she plans to move
> away.
>
> I'm hoping that she can point out (via an unpublished thesis) a
> translation to modern musical notation of "The Gaberlunzie Man"
> in the Balcarres MS, c 1700. That would put song and tune to c
> 1700, earlier than now known. Blaikie's old MSS didn't have it
> (nor does Leyden MS, 1692) as far as we know.
>
> Bruce OlsonModern musical notation of "The Gaberlunzie Man" from Balcarres MS now
in hand, from Kate Van Winkle Keller.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
> <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
> subject index) </a>--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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Subject: Re: Blaikie MS (NLS MS.1578)
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 11 Sep 2003 14:52:21 -0400
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Cal & Lani Herrmann wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 11:40:58AM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: edward cray <[unmask]>
> >
> > <<I wonder how many list members might join me in underwriting a portion of
> > Jack's expenses/time.  He has access to manuscripts most of us would
> > otherwise never see.>>
> >
> > Yup. Can't do much but I'll do what I can.
>
>         And me too, please -- Aloha, Lani
>
> <||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask] (or: [unmask])
> <||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360I'll help with a bit of money, and as much as I'd like to go back to
Edinburgh (or Newton Grange) to do more, (and get into these Panmure MS
now at NLS) I can't manage that.Panmure MSS (17th an 18th century English and Scots tunes) are
microfilmed and these are supposedly available individually via NLS
website (but not yet tracked to order page) and, in toto with many other
early Scots MS are available from a commercial supplier. Thanks to Kate
Van Winkle Keller, I got her spare microfilm/microfiche reader this
morning, so now I can see a microfilm.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
and broadside ballads at my no-spam website
<A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click here for homepage (=
subject index) </a>

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