----- Original Message -----
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]><<Art had a great repertoire, was a stellar performer, and, I, too, enjoyed
seeing him live.  I don't know anything about the World Folk Music Society,
but it's great to know that they've named their hall after him.  Does this
Folk Music Society have a website?>>http://www.worldfolkmusiccompany.com/From the looks of it, they're basically a folk music school, with concerts.
The variety of instruments taught is quite impressive.Peace,
Paul

For Norm Cohen:Norm,People on a blues mailing list are wondering what "smokestack
lightning" is.  That is the title of a Howlin' Wolf blues that seems
to deal with railroading, and it is alleged that the term appears
also in non-blues songs.  People speculate that it refers to a shower
of sparks from the smokestack, but no one seems to have an
authoritative answer.How 'bout it?
--
john garst    [unmask]

My apologies for the previous, misleading subject line.*********For Norm Cohen:Norm,People on a blues mailing list are wondering what "smokestack
lightning" is.  That is the title of a Howlin' Wolf blues that seems
to deal with railroading, and it is alleged that the term appears
also in non-blues songs.  People speculate that it refers to a shower
of sparks from the smokestack, but no one seems to have an
authoritative answer.How 'bout it?
--
john garst    [unmask]

VIRUS WARNING: DON'T OPEN "EASTER VACATION" FROM "A FRIEND IN LUCCA"An ugly little virus called "Bugbear," now spreading globally, may have
been sent to everyone in my mailbox. It apparently got into mine via the
business mailbox of a friend in Lucca, Italy, by kidnapping one of her
usernames; "A Friend in Lucca" may appear in the "From:" line, "Easter
Vacation" in the message title. The version I got also contains a distinct
"Security Warning."The only addressee who's informed me about receiving this virus added:
"Norton had a tool to fix the virus, i.e. clean it off your computer and
restore and corrupted files.  It took a little time to download and run
the tool but it worked fine."FWIW, [1] one of my usernames was kidnapped last year; luckily, the virus
was sent only to the members of a folk ballad discussion list I belonged
to. The kidnapper was traced back as far as Cornell, where the trail
ended. -- [2] The 2003 kidnapper apparently accessed the Lucca account via
a very old (pre-Easter) message.  These details are included in case
they're useful to anyone with deep technical knowledge.Michael Bell

On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 03:02:47PM -0400, John Garst wrote:        [ ... ]> For Norm Cohen:
>
> Norm,
>
> People on a blues mailing list are wondering what "smokestack
> lightning" is.  That is the title of a Howlin' Wolf blues that seems
> to deal with railroading, and it is alleged that the term appears
> also in non-blues songs.  People speculate that it refers to a shower
> of sparks from the smokestack, but no one seems to have an
> authoritative answer.
>
> How 'bout it?        If you want a pure guess, is it possible that the heat of the
exhaust could be tapped to run a small still for the engineer's
convenience, thus producing "white lightning" in the smokestack?        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

The name of the song rang a bell, and sure enough, I found it in the Appendix to
V. de Sola Pinto's The Common Muse (1965), with a few extra verses too.  He gives
the source as 'Oral'. . .  In fact, the Appendix is an incredible farrago of
scandalous and obscene pieces that the old boy evidently felt were modern
examples of the broadsides in the main body of the book, as indeed they are.
Like so much else, the book deserves reprinting.Gerald Porter
>
> <<The song was first recorded by an American group, The Limeliters, in
> the early 1960s, but with a verse missing.>>
>
> Just out of curiosity, I checked the Limeliters' recording of the song; on
> the label (which lists only last names for authors), the credit is given to
> "Bruce". I wonder who Bruce might be? (Whoever s/he is/was, s/he was
> registered with ASCAP. Maybe they'll know. But their website won't open for
> me, for reasons I don't understand.)
>
> I checked the Harry Fox Agency website (one old Harry deserves another,
> right?) and searched under "Harry Pollitt". It came up, and I clicked on
> "Bruce". Well, I got several more listings, including one more Limeliters
> song, "Everywhere I Look This Mornin'", which I recall as deserving of a
> place in "A Mighty Wind". I have this LP too, from my grade-school days, and
> it too has no first names. There were several other songs listed as by
> "Bruce" on the Fox website, including "See the Big Man Cry", recorded by
> Charlie Louvin, which is plausible as being by the same songwriter, and two
> songs sung by Insane Clown Posse, including "Santa's a Fat Bitch", which is
> not similarly plausible. There's also a song recorded by Cream, which I
> presume is the work of their bassist, Jack Bruce.
>
> If I had a guess, I'd say that for the Limeliters, "Bruce" was a fictitious
> person used when they couldn't determine authorship, serving the function
> the non-existent Paul Campbell played in the Weavers.
>
> <<Harry was a Bolshie,
> One of Lenin's lads,
> Foully slain by Counter-
> revolutionary Cads.>>
>
> Half of the joke, of course, was that the real Harry was far from dead. The
> Limeliters missed that little subtlety.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

>On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 03:02:47PM -0400, John Garst wrote:
>
>         [ ... ]
>
>>  For Norm Cohen:
>>
>>  Norm,
>>
>>  People on a blues mailing list are wondering what "smokestack
>>  lightning" is.  That is the title of a Howlin' Wolf blues that seems
>>  to deal with railroading, and it is alleged that the term appears
>>  also in non-blues songs.  People speculate that it refers to a shower
>>  of sparks from the smokestack, but no one seems to have an
>>  authoritative answer.
>>
>>  How 'bout it?
>
>         If you want a pure guess, is it possible that the heat of the
>exhaust could be tapped to run a small still for the engineer's
>convenience, thus producing "white lightning" in the smokestack?
>
>         Enjoy,
>                 DoN.Don,I enjoyed this possibility immensely.  I'll pass it on.Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Hi!        Here are a couple of short auctions which have appeared since my
last posting and will close before the next.        3526006388 - Mountain Minstrelsy of Pennsylvania by Shoemaker,
1931, $35 (ends Jun-08-03 16:05:38 PDT)        3526046260 - PLANTATION SONGS by Shepperd, 1901, $175 (ends
Jun-08-03 19:01:39 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 03:02:47PM -0400, John Garst wrote:
>
>         [ ... ]
>
>  For Norm Cohen:
>
>  Norm,
>
>  People on a blues mailing list are wondering what "smokestack
>  lightning" is.  That is the title of a Howlin' Wolf blues that seems
>  to deal with railroading, and it is alleged that the term appears
>  also in non-blues songs.  People speculate that it refers to a shower
>  of sparks from the smokestack, but no one seems to have an
>  authoritative answer.I have this on two LPs by Howlin' Wolf
        Moanin' in the Moonlight            Chess           195?
        This is Howlin' Wolf's New Album    Cadet Concept   1968The second cut of the Wolf classic is just two verses with 5 minutes of
the rhythm guitar.  Likely he did it many ways ovder time.I transcribed (below) the first best as I could but likely your mailing
list people will have a better set available.A web search for lyrics gave many rock interpretations and the following
very similar one by Lightnin' Hopkins I'd never seen before.  Seems a
natural for Hopkins to parody this title, though.I agree, this is a job for Norman-man.  I think the thing to keep in mind
is the obvious - 95% of Wolf's references were sexual.  As to literal
meaning - sorry, no help.   Well, there was one web reference to ultra-hot
barbecue as "smokestack lightning" but...Smokestack Lightning  (sans 'wooo-aa's)
W&M: Chester Burnett (Howling Wolf)Smokestack lightning
Shinin' just like gold
Well, don't you hear me cryin'Oh, tell me, baby,
What's the, matter here?
Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?Whoa-oh, tell me, baby,
Where did you stay last night?
Well, don't you hear me cryin'?Well, stop your train,
Let her go for a ride [?]
Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?Well, fare you well
Never see you no more
Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?Well, who been here baby since,
I been gone, a little, bitty boy?
Girl, be on [?]==Smokes Like Lightnin' (Hopkins)
Recorded in 1962.Whoa it smoke like lightnin', yeah but shine like gold
Don't you hear me talking pretty baby,
Smoke like lightnin', yeah but shine like gold
Yeah you know I see my little fair one
Lying there on a cooling bowlYes I see the hearse one morning backed up to our door
Don't you hear me talking?
Soon one morning, backed up to our door
Well you know I could see my little baby
Lying there on a cooling bowlWell my baby died and left me,
Laid her on a cooling bowl
Yes she died and she left me,
They laid her on a cooling bowl
Well they said, Lightnin' she's gone and left you now boy,
You will never see her smiling face no moreWell it was sad...Well I followed my baby, followed my baby
Down to her burying ground
Well I followed my baby, followed her
Down to her burying ground
Yeah it didn't hurt me so bad till I'd seen
Poor miss when they let her downYou know I done lost my little fair one
I guess the next thing will be me
I done lost my little fair one
I guess the next thing will be me
Whoa I ain't dead, no boys,
But Po' Lightnin' sinking by degree
By degree-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hello,I'm new around here, just joining the list. I don't know if you have a
policy of self-introductions or not. I did notice that when I hit Reply, my
reply was directed to [unmask], without the LISTSERV. Would
that have reached the list?Anyway, I couldn't believe this transcription, but I checked online and
there it is, 3 or 4 times. Lightnin' is almost certainly referring to a
morgue slab or "cooling board" and not to his "bowl" of Thai noodles that
are cooling off too quickly. <g>Paul GaronAt 12:03 PM 6/8/03 -0400, you wrote:>Smokes Like Lightnin' (Hopkins)
>Recorded in 1962.
>
>Whoa it smoke like lightnin', yeah but shine like gold
>Don't you hear me talking pretty baby,
>Smoke like lightnin', yeah but shine like gold
>Yeah you know I see my little fair one
>Lying there on a cooling bowlPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

The Hopkins recording appears on one of his later Bluesville LPs, BV 1070,
recorded Jan 1962. I think I had stopped buying his Bluesville LPs a little
before this because they were getting fairly monotonous and uninventive.Paul GaronAt 02:04 PM 6/8/03 -0400, you wrote:
>Howdy Folks,
>
>I've been trying to stay out of this one until I could assemble the facts,
>because Smokestack Lightnin' is a version of one of the songs recorded by
>the Mississippi Sheiks. Unfortunately, I'm damned if I can remember which
>one. (Stop and Listen Blues?)
>
>In any event, according to my ears, the missing line of Abby's
>transcription is "Had a darby on."
>
>The Wolf also made an earlier recording of the song under the title,
>Crying at Daylight. That version appeared on a budget label called Crown
>CLP 5240, which I bought back in the early 60s. The sleeve contains no
>discographical data, but I believe the material was originally recorded in
>the late 40s for Sam Philips' Sun label.
>
>The reference to Lightnin' Hopkins puzzles me, for I have around 300
>recordings by him, but can't trace Smokestack among them. Also, given
>Hopkins' creativity, I find it hard to imagine that he would have recorded
>someone else's song without amending the lyrics. Could the person who
>posted the Hopkins' lyrics have been confused as to the artist ? Did he or
>she give any discographical information ?
>
>By the by, I can trace recordings of Smokestack by at least two other
>famous blues artists. They are on
>
>Charly RED BOX 3. Complete Muddy Waters 1947 - 1967. A 9 CD compilation of
>everything Waters recorded for Chess,
>
>Rounder 2007 Fred McDowell, vcl, gtr, Johnny Woods, hca. The
>McDowell/Woods performance is electrifying, but the Wolf's influence, on
>that particular track, is very noticeable.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Fred McCormick
>
>In a message dated 08/06/2003 17:11:49 GMT Standard Time,
>[unmask] writes:
>
>
>>On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 03:02:47PM -0400, John Garst wrote:
>> >
>> >         [ ... ]
>> >
>> >  For Norm Cohen:
>> >
>> >  Norm,
>> >
>> >  People on a blues mailing list are wondering what "smokestack
>> >  lightning" is.  That is the title of a Howlin' Wolf blues that seems
>> >  to deal with railroading, and it is alleged that the term appears
>> >  also in non-blues songs.  People speculate that it refers to a shower
>> >  of sparks from the smokestack, but no one seems to have an
>> >  authoritative answer.
>>
>>I have this on two LPs by Howlin' Wolf
>>        Moanin' in the Moonlight            Chess           195?
>>        This is Howlin' Wolf's New Album    Cadet Concept   1968
>>
>>The second cut of the Wolf classic is just two verses with 5 minutes of
>>the rhythm guitar.  Likely he did it many ways ovder time.
>>
>>I transcribed (below) the first best as I could but likely your mailing
>>list people will have a better set available.
>>
>>A web search for lyrics gave many rock interpretations and the following
>>very similar one by Lightnin' Hopkins I'd never seen before.  Seems a
>>natural for Hopkins to parody this title, though.
>>
>>I agree, this is a job for Norman-man.  I think the thing to keep in mind
>>is the obvious - 95% of Wolf's references were sexual.  As to literal
>>meaning - sorry, no help.   Well, there was one web reference to ultra-hot
>>barbecue as "smokestack lightning" but...
>>
>>Smokestack Lightning  (sans 'wooo-aa's)
>>W&M: Chester Burnett (Howling Wolf)
>>
>>Smokestack lightning
>>Shinin' just like gold
>>Well, don't you hear me cryin'
>>
>>Oh, tell me, baby,
>>What's the, matter here?
>>Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?
>>
>>Whoa-oh, tell me, baby,
>>Where did you stay last night?
>>Well, don't you hear me cryin'?
>>
>>Well, stop your train,
>>Let her go for a ride [?]
>>Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?
>>
>>Well, fare you well
>>Never see you no more
>>Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?
>>
>>Well, who been here baby since,
>>I been gone, a little, bitty boy?
>>Girl, be on [?]
>
>Paul and Beth Garon
>Beasley Books (ABAA)
>1533 W. Oakdale
>Chicago, IL 60657
>(773) 472-4528
>(773) 472-7857 FAX
>[unmask]

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003 13:31:06 -0300, Paul Garon wrote:>I'm new around here, just joining the list. I don't know if you have a
>policy of self-introductions or not. I did notice that when I hit Reply, my
>reply was directed to [unmask], without the LISTSERV. Would
>that have reached the list?Hi, Paul,No policy, most do, some don't.  If you have a special interest, that
would be very handy to know, though.Yes, that was the correct Reply.  Listserv is the manager of the List, for
settings, Subscribe, etc.  You should have by now the shorter Help info
(INFO REFCARD) and the address for the website.  Website is very handy for
changing your settings if you misplace the Info info and for its archive
of old threads."Board" does make much more sense.  But is that the way you hear it or
from another transcription?   I don't have this record, myself.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

I would suspect that the reference to a "cooling bowl" is actually a
reference to a cooling *board*. Hopkins would have pronounced it "bo'd",
IMO.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: Smokestack Ligtning> On Fri, Jun 06, 2003 at 03:02:47PM -0400, John Garst wrote:
> >
> >         [ ... ]
> >
> >  For Norm Cohen:
> >
> >  Norm,
> >
> >  People on a blues mailing list are wondering what "smokestack
> >  lightning" is.  That is the title of a Howlin' Wolf blues that seems
> >  to deal with railroading, and it is alleged that the term appears
> >  also in non-blues songs.  People speculate that it refers to a shower
> >  of sparks from the smokestack, but no one seems to have an
> >  authoritative answer.
>
> I have this on two LPs by Howlin' Wolf
>         Moanin' in the Moonlight            Chess           195?
>         This is Howlin' Wolf's New Album    Cadet Concept   1968
>
> The second cut of the Wolf classic is just two verses with 5 minutes of
> the rhythm guitar.  Likely he did it many ways ovder time.
>
> I transcribed (below) the first best as I could but likely your mailing
> list people will have a better set available.
>
> A web search for lyrics gave many rock interpretations and the following
> very similar one by Lightnin' Hopkins I'd never seen before.  Seems a
> natural for Hopkins to parody this title, though.
>
> I agree, this is a job for Norman-man.  I think the thing to keep in mind
> is the obvious - 95% of Wolf's references were sexual.  As to literal
> meaning - sorry, no help.   Well, there was one web reference to ultra-hot
> barbecue as "smokestack lightning" but...
>
> Smokestack Lightning  (sans 'wooo-aa's)
> W&M: Chester Burnett (Howling Wolf)
>
> Smokestack lightning
> Shinin' just like gold
> Well, don't you hear me cryin'
>
> Oh, tell me, baby,
> What's the, matter here?
> Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?
>
> Whoa-oh, tell me, baby,
> Where did you stay last night?
> Well, don't you hear me cryin'?
>
> Well, stop your train,
> Let her go for a ride [?]
> Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?
>
> Well, fare you well
> Never see you no more
> Well, don't ya hear me cryin'?
>
> Well, who been here baby since,
> I been gone, a little, bitty boy?
> Girl, be on [?]
>
> ==
>
> Smokes Like Lightnin' (Hopkins)
> Recorded in 1962.
>
> Whoa it smoke like lightnin', yeah but shine like gold
> Don't you hear me talking pretty baby,
> Smoke like lightnin', yeah but shine like gold
> Yeah you know I see my little fair one
> Lying there on a cooling bowl
>
> Yes I see the hearse one morning backed up to our door
> Don't you hear me talking?
> Soon one morning, backed up to our door
> Well you know I could see my little baby
> Lying there on a cooling bowl
>
> Well my baby died and left me,
> Laid her on a cooling bowl
> Yes she died and she left me,
> They laid her on a cooling bowl
> Well they said, Lightnin' she's gone and left you now boy,
> You will never see her smiling face no more
>
> Well it was sad...
>
> Well I followed my baby, followed my baby
> Down to her burying ground
> Well I followed my baby, followed her
> Down to her burying ground
> Yeah it didn't hurt me so bad till I'd seen
> Poor miss when they let her down
>
> You know I done lost my little fair one
> I guess the next thing will be me
> I done lost my little fair one
> I guess the next thing will be me
> Whoa I ain't dead, no boys,
> But Po' Lightnin' sinking by degree
> By degree
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

It's a fairly standard blue phrase, so I would assume he meant "board" even
if he pronounced it "bowl"! Presumptious of me, I know, but after 40 years
of listening to blues--and writing about it--your self-confidence often
outpaces your (what? brains? knowlege?)Paul GaronAt 09:17 AM 6/9/03 -0400, you wrote:
>"Board" does make much more sense.  But is that the way you hear it or
>from another transcription?   I don't have this record, myself.Paul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Hi,I will follow Abby's introduction and introduce myself: I'm Paul Garon, one
of the founders of LIVING BLUES, and author of 3 books on the blues: THE
DEVIL'S SON-IN-LAW: THE STORY OF PEETIE WHEATSTRAW AND HIS SONGS; BLUES AND
THE POETIC SPIRIT; and with Beth Garon, WOMAN WITH GUITAR: MEMPHIS MINNIE'S
BLUES. I've been writing about the blues for 40 years and am constantly
learning new things from mailing lists like this one.Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: Abby Sale <[unmask]><<"Board" does make much more sense.  But is that the way you hear it or
from another transcription?   I don't have this record, myself.>>I don't either -- but that verse, which ends "lyin' on the coolin' board" is
a pretty common floater in blues lyrics. It's sometimes "lyin' on the
killin' floor".Peace,
Paul

Wanted to correct one misconception: >The Wolf also made an earlier recording of the song under the title,
Crying at Daylight. That version appeared >on a budget label called
Crown CLP 5240, which I bought back in the early 60s. The sleeve
contains no >discographical data, but I believe the material was
originally recorded in the late 40s for Sam Philips' Sun label."Crying At Daybreak" [or Daylight, it depends on which reissue] is not a
Sam PHILLIPS / Sun / Memphis Recording Studio recording. An outgrowth of
disputes between Phillips and the BIHARI brothers [RPM] it's one of a
series of 18 recordings made by Joe BIHARI and Ike TURNER at a West
Memphis Arkansas radio station [KWEM?] in Sept. and Oct. of 1951. This
RPM / Crown / Kent / United material is currently available on EMI
Music's Fuel 2000 label.

John (and all)
The many responses to your query far exceed my poor power to add or detract
(to misquote Lincoln).  I always assumed "smokestack lightning" was a
mishearing of the earlier "smokes like lightning"--at least, that's the way
Michael Taft transcribed the phrase in  Walter Vincson's "Stop Look &
Listen" (1930) and then Kokomo Arnold's version of the same song (1935) and
also Willie Lofton's "Dark Road Blues" (1935).  The "cooling board" line
appears in both Vincson's and Arnold's songs.  However, that doesn't explain
it any better--at least not to me.
Norm Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: Smokestack Ligtning> My apologies for the previous, misleading subject line.
>
> *********
>
> For Norm Cohen:
>
> Norm,
>
> People on a blues mailing list are wondering what "smokestack
> lightning" is.  That is the title of a Howlin' Wolf blues that seems
> to deal with railroading, and it is alleged that the term appears
> also in non-blues songs.  People speculate that it refers to a shower
> of sparks from the smokestack, but no one seems to have an
> authoritative answer.
>
> How 'bout it?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

At 02:14 PM 6/9/03 -0700, you wrote:
>The many responses to your query far exceed my poor power to add or detract
>(to misquote Lincoln).  I always assumed "smokestack lightning" was a
>mishearing of the earlier "smokes like lightning"--at least, that's the way
>Michael Taft transcribed the phrase in  Walter Vincson's "Stop Look &
>Listen" (1930) and then Kokomo Arnold's version of the same song (1935) and
>also Willie Lofton's "Dark Road Blues" (1935).It could indeed be a mishearing of smokes like lightning, but that's not a
deeply meaningful phrase either. I mean, what does lightning smoke like?
Admittedly, there may be smoke when it hits a tree, but that's hardly the
signal aspect of such a violent concussion. Sounds like thunder, but smokes
like lightning? Hmmm...Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Folks:I wonder if a simple explanation might be best:According to Robert L. Chapman, _New Dictionary of American Slang,_ smoke as a
verb has the meaning (among others) of "to shoot someone=plug"; or "to be
executed in a gas chamber."Hence, if it "smokes like lightning," it kills/fries.  Which might explain the
"cooling board" in some versions.Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Garon <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, June 9, 2003 12:54 pm
Subject: Re: Smokestack Ligtning> At 02:14 PM 6/9/03 -0700, you wrote:
> >The many responses to your query far exceed my poor power to add or detract
> >(to misquote Lincoln).  I always assumed "smokestack lightning" was a
> >mishearing of the earlier "smokes like lightning"--at least, that's the way
> >Michael Taft transcribed the phrase in  Walter Vincson's "Stop Look &
> >Listen" (1930) and then Kokomo Arnold's version of the same song (1935) and
> >also Willie Lofton's "Dark Road Blues" (1935).
>
>
> It could indeed be a mishearing of smokes like lightning, but that's not a
> deeply meaningful phrase either. I mean, what does lightning smoke like?
> Admittedly, there may be smoke when it hits a tree, but that's hardly the
> signal aspect of such a violent concussion. Sounds like thunder, but smokes
> like lightning? Hmmm...
>
> Paul Garon
>
>
>
>
> Paul and Beth Garon
> Beasley Books (ABAA)
> 1533 W. Oakdale
> Chicago, IL 60657
> (773) 472-4528
> (773) 472-7857 FAX
> [unmask]
>
>
>

Hi!        Here I am again! Another week - another list. :-)        SONGSTERS        3227741935 - Christy's Panorama Songster, 1850's?, $10.50 (ends
Jun-12-03 13:25:48 PDT)        2537004459 - Grigg?s Southern & Western Songster, 1829, $9.99
w/reserve (ends Jun-13-03 18:44:41 PDT)        3612188148 - JOHN FOSTER'S GREAT NEW YORK CIRCUS SONGSTER, 1883,
$9.99 (ends Jun-14-03 16:28:00 PDT)        2537289922 - Star Song Book No.1 (Wehmans Song Book no.62.),
1898, $0.99 (ends Jun-15-03 08:15:39 PDT)        3526469475 - THE BLONDE OF THE PERIOD SONGSTER, 1869, 40 GBP
(ends Jun-15-03 14:15:54 PDT)        3526471404 - THE BEAUTY OF THE BLONDES SONGSTER, 1870, 40 GBP
(ends Jun-15-03 14:23:30 PDT)        3526546316 - The Temperance Songster by Gordon, 1904?, $9.99
(ends Jun-15-03 19:26:13 PDT)        SONGBOOKS        3526229018 - 4 vintage Afro American music books, $25 (ends
Jun-11-03 15:10:50 PDT)        2536820896 - Joe Davis' Songs of the Roaming Ranger, 1935, $9.95
(ends Jun-12-03 20:28:12 PDT)        3526610263 - The Minstrelsy of the Scottish Highlands by Moffat,
1900?, $9.99 (ends Jun-13-03 06:52:06 PDT)        3612358621 - The People's Songbook, 1948, $19.50 (ends Jun-13-03
18:52:44 PDT)        2537007819 - 2 Asher Sizemore and Little Jimmie songbooks,
1930's, $7.99 (ends Jun-13-03 19:03:47 PDT)        2537013592 - The Book of American Negro Spirituals by Johnson,
1936, $4.99 (ends Jun-13-03 19:41:12 PDT)        2537040384 - Jacobite Songs & Ballads by Sharp, 1900?, $19.99
(ends Jun-14-03 01:21:52 PDT)        2537148598 - A Selection of Collected Folk Songs by Sharp &
Williams, 3 GBP (ends Jun-14-03 14:02:22 PDT)        2536447403 - Folk-Songs, Chanteys and Singing Games by
Farnsworth & Sharp, $1.99 (ends Jun-14-03 14:09:20 PDT)        3526223043 - NARRATIVE SINGING IN IRELAND by Shields, 1.20 GBP
(ends Jun-14-03 14:35:01 PDT)        3526888860 - The Big Book of Australian Folk Songs by Edwards,
1976, $9.95 (ends Jun-14-03 17:34:18 PDT)        3526939901 - ENGLISH & SCOTTISH BALLADS by Graves, 1977, 4.99
GBP (ends Jun-15-03 00:21:41 PDT)        3227925888 - SONGS OF THE AMERICAN WEST by Silber, $14.98 (ends
Jun-15-03 16:12:39 PDT)        2536799603 - The English Ballad by Gundry, 1995, $5 (ends
Jun-15-03 19:18:56 PDT)        3527190251 - English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Sargent &
Kittredge, 1904, $12 (ends Jun-15-03 20:46:45 PDT)        3527266443 - Lord Randall" and Other British Ballads by Child,
1996, $2.95 (ends Jun-16-03 08:30:46 PDT)        3527291980 - Black Rock: Mining Folklore of the Pennsylvania
Dutch by Korson, 1960, $9 (ends Jun-16-03 10:26:50 PDT)        3527320055 - Book of British Ballads by Hall, MDCCCXLIV (1844),
10 GBP w/reserve (ends Jun-16-03 12:10:02 PDT)        3527358231 - THE JOURNAL OF AMERICAN FOLK-LORE, April-June 1916,
$6.99 (ends Jun-16-03 14:56:39 PDT)        3227661649 - American Negro-Folk Songs by White, 1965 reprint,
$29.95 (ends Jun-16-03 20:20:54 PDT)        3527386350 - Songs Along the Mahantongo by Boyer, Buffington &
Yoder, 1964 reprint, $5 (ends Jun-16-03 18:11:46 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Well, The Big Book of Australian Folk Songs has been on my list for
some time now, so I'ze a-bidding.Thanks Dolores; see you at Mystic I expect.John.

John:How the hell are you?  And how is Tony?Keeping sober -- well, sometimes -- I trust.Ed Cray----- Original Message -----
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 06/10/03> Well, The Big Book of Australian Folk Songs has been on my list for
> some time now, so I'ze a-bidding.
>
> Thanks Dolores; see you at Mystic I expect.
>
> John.
>
>
>

Hi,I gather from Ed Cray, and indrectly from Dolores Nichols's postings, that
commercial messages aren't disallowed on this list. So let me mention that
Beasley Books specializes in jazz and blues printed matter and we do issue
catalogs (and work from want lists). We send catalogs out by email and
snail mail and would be happy to include anyone on our mailing list, by
request.I would also be happy to unofficially advise anyone on the list as to
matters of rarity, printing state, etc. of any book they may have or wonder
about.We are moving more and more into 78s and, probably, ballad collections
(printed), so who knows where all this will end up!Thanks,Paul GaronPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Linn Records has released a massive 12-CD set of the Complete Songs of
Robert Burns. Unlike most such recordings, which tend to be "arty",
ponderous, over-arranged and (may I say) dull, this set treats the songs
in a folk idiom. A mess of very good Scottish performers, ( there are 97
in all) have provided a collection of  interpetations which vary from
unaccompanied voice to well-accompanied singing:. I won't try to list
all the performers, but the include the likes of Gordeanna McCulloch,
Tony Cuffe, Christine Kydd, Ed Miller, Alistair Hulett, , Catriona
McKay, Sandy Brechin, Tony McManus, Wendy Weatherby, Janet Russell, Ian
Bruce, Pete Clark, Rod Paterson, Mae McKenna.....my typing finger tires.
    The recordings are excellent (if I had to nitpick, I'd say that a
few tracks have too much echo), the programing is varied and the set,
IMO, is a delight to listen to.
CAMSCO Music, [unmask], 800/548-FOLK [3655] is selling the set
(all 12 CDs, 360 songs) for a very reasonable $120 (+S&H.) Linn is
selling them in the UK for £100; it may still be less expensive to buy
them from CAMSCO.
    I really like the set.dick greenhaus

On 6/10/03, Paul Garon wrote:>Hi,
>
>I gather from Ed Cray, and indrectly from Dolores Nichols's postings, that
>commercial messages aren't disallowed on this list. So let me mention that
>Beasley Books specializes in jazz and blues printed matter and we do issue
>catalogs (and work from want lists). We send catalogs out by email and
>snail mail and would be happy to include anyone on our mailing list, by
>request.Being a fairly informal list, we don't have clear rules on "commercial
speech." But I think the above isn't really a proper summary of the
situation.One of the great problems of people interested in ballads is that
the basic references are hard to obtain. We can't just go out and
order a copy of Bronson; it's out of print. So when something
becomes available, we like to know about it. If a new book is
published, naturally people want to know about it -- and that
includes information about how to order it. But we don't want
to hear once-a-month commercial promos (as was happening on
the Folktalk list a while ago).Similarly with Dolores's postings. This is a public service to
all of us. She searches eBay and lets us know her results. She
isn't affiliated with eBay, or with the sellers of the books.
She's just helping us find things we otherwise would not find.I did the same thing last week when I mentioned the copy of
Child available at a local used bookstore.It's a fine line, particularly since it's never been drawn out
explicitly. :-) But I know that the list mom discourages actual
commercial speech. I think the best way to describe it is this:
If you're in it to make money, then it's not really appropriate.
If you're trying to make information available, then it is
appropriate.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

I think I perceive the distinction. Tricky, though, if I should come into
classic references like Cox, Owens, Eddy, et al. The list would like to
know about them, but I would want to sell them.A very fine line, going right through the muddy water!Paul Garon>It's a fine line, particularly since it's never been drawn out
>explicitly. :-) But I know that the list mom discourages actual
>commercial speech. I think the best way to describe it is this:
>If you're in it to make money, then it's not really appropriate.
>If you're trying to make information available, then it is
>appropriate.Paul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

On 6/11/03, Paul Garon wrote:>I think I perceive the distinction. Tricky, though, if I should come into
>classic references like Cox, Owens, Eddy, et al. The list would like to
>know about them, but I would want to sell them.
>
>A very fine line, going right through the muddy water!I notice no one else speaking up. :-( But I would say that, if
you find a classic reference, then yes, tell us, once, with
contact information.But if you get in a dozen Peter Paul and Mary songbooks, no
thanks. :-)As a good starting point: If it's in print, don't report it.
And if it isn't based on field collections or broadsides,
that's probably not of much interest either.
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

This is indeed much clearer. As we are carrying this on in open discussion,
and no one is speaking up, I presume others endorse your position. (!)Paul GaronAt 03:45 PM 6/11/03 -0500, you wrote:
>On 6/11/03, Paul Garon wrote:
>
> >I think I perceive the distinction. Tricky, though, if I should come into
> >classic references like Cox, Owens, Eddy, et al. The list would like to
> >know about them, but I would want to sell them.
> >
> >A very fine line, going right through the muddy water!
>
>I notice no one else speaking up. :-( But I would say that, if
>you find a classic reference, then yes, tell us, once, with
>contact information.
>
>But if you get in a dozen Peter Paul and Mary songbooks, no
>thanks. :-)
>
>As a good starting point: If it's in print, don't report it.
>And if it isn't based on field collections or broadsides,
>that's probably not of much interest either.
>--
>Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
>1078 Colne Street
>Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
>651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
>The Ballad Index Web Site:
>http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.htmlPaul and Beth Garon
Beasley Books (ABAA)
1533 W. Oakdale
Chicago, IL 60657
(773) 472-4528
(773) 472-7857 FAX
[unmask]

Dear list:I have been listening to several cds of ragtime and related old and
contemporary music, and have noted some of the selections are titled "xxxx
breakdown."  Does "breakdown" have a particular meaning in the field of
music?Thank you!Gerald Clark
San Francisco, CA

>As we are carrying this on in open discussion,
>and no one is speaking up, I presume others endorse your
position. (!)
>
>Paul GaronIf a lurker may comment...
I appreciate the mention of both available finds and the
people or places who deal in such. It's because of this list
that I've learned of several wonderful sources (online as
well!). And every August, when I'm at the Champlain Festival,
I search out the Camsco booth and performers such as John
Roberts and Margaret MacArthur.
These very occasional "Commercial Messages" are much valued
on my part.
Thanks.
Kathleen

Hi- To the best of my knowledge, the term came from the description of
the final set figure in a quadrille--instead of single visitors, or
visiting couples or other specified positions dancing at any particular
tie, the "breakdown" figure had all eight dancers dancing at the same
time, usually to a fast 4/4 tune.
When quadrilles became less formal, during the late 19th century,
"breakdown became the term used for any fast dance tune.dick greenhausGerald Clark wrote:>Dear list:
>
>I have been listening to several cds of ragtime and related old and
>contemporary music, and have noted some of the selections are titled "xxxx
>breakdown."  Does "breakdown" have a particular meaning in the field of
>music?
>
>Thank you!
>
>Gerald Clark
>San Francisco, CA
>
>
>

Gerald,Breakdown is more a dance term than a music term.  Imagine plantation slaves or Mississippi River dock workers doing a clog dance similar to a sailor's hornpipe or an Irish jig to a musical accompaniment such as banjo and bones, and you'll have a fairly good picture.Breakdowns carried over into the ragtime era, particularly in minstrel shows, and also influenced early jazz dance. Some dance scholars even consider the breakdown a form of early jazz dance despite the fact that the term "jazz" didn't come along until later.Sue Attalla---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Gerald Clark <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:52:44 -0700>Dear list:
>
>I have been listening to several cds of ragtime and related old and
>contemporary music, and have noted some of the selections are titled "xxxx
>breakdown."  Does "breakdown" have a particular meaning in the field of
>music?
>
>Thank you!
>
>Gerald Clark
>San Francisco, CA
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

A supplement to my less detailed memory:In _Black Dance_ (page 42), Edward Thorpe discusses William Henry Lane (a.k.a. "Master Juba, the Greatest Dancer in ht World" who had learned from "a Negro jig-and reel dancer" and spent his early professional years "performing in such dances in the low dives, dance halls and saloons of lower Manhattan in what was known as the Five Points District . . . It was an area of brothels and rooming houses, mainly occupied by freed Negro slaves and poor Irish workers, so it is not surprising that the Irish jig became intermixed with the Negro dances."In _American Notes_,"Boz" (Charles Dickens) describes seeing Juba perform at Five Points:"Single shuffle, double shuffle, cut and cross-cut:  snapping his fingers, rolling his eyes, turning in his knees, presenting the backs of his legs infront, spinning about on his toes and heels like nothing but the man's fingers on the tambourine; dancing with two left legs, two right legs, two wooden legs, two wire legs, two spring legs--all sorts of legs and no legs--what is this to him?  And in what walk of life, or dance of life, does man ever get such stimulating applause as thunders about him, when, having danced his partner off her feet, and himself too, he finishes by leaping gloriously on the bar counter, and calling for something to drink, with the chuckle of a million counterfeit Jim Crows in one inimitable sound."  --quoted by Thorpe, page 44_American Notes_ includes a drawing of Master Juba doing a clog dance and another of two black dancers performing a breakdown in a saloon.  Their arms are outstretched and they lean backwards while seeming to do an exuberant clog dance. On the far left, a fiddler and banjo player are pictured from the rear; on the far right, claps the rhythm (typically syncopated).On page 46, Thorpe describes a minstrel show Walk Around:"The Walk Around--sometimes performed as a finale as well--was developed from the Afro-Caribbean Ring Dance and the Juba.  For sixteen bars or so the whole company would shuffle around in a circle; then one of the dancers would enter the centre of the ring and perform a Juba solo which was more readily known as a breakdown. When six dancers or soloists had all shown their paces they came downstage and danced together while the rest of the company patted time, or clapped hands and shuffled."Sue Attalla

<<This is indeed much clearer. As we are carrying this on in open
discussion,
and no one is speaking up, I presume others endorse your position. (!)>>Well, it sounds reasonable. Those of us who are interested in getting your
regular lists will sign up (I have); otherwise, let us know only about the
really unusual stuff. As Bob says, classics (Child, Sharp, that lot),
material drawn from field work, broadsides. And I'd add, out-of-print
regional stuff (e.g., "Folk Ballads of New Mexico and Arizona").Peace,
Paul

On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 02:31:24 -0500, Sue Attalla wrote:>A supplement to my less detailed memory:
>
>In _Black Dance_ (page 42), Edward Thorpe discusses William Henry Lane (a.k.a. "Master Juba, the Greatest Dancer inGreat!-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Hi-
I trust that my occasional "Blatant Semi-Commercial Announcements" of
books and recordings of (I hope) interest aren't offensive. I've
received a few requests from list members to continue (and possibly to
expand upon) these.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO MusicPaul Stamler wrote:><<This is indeed much clearer. As we are carrying this on in open
>discussion,
>and no one is speaking up, I presume others endorse your position. (!)>>
>
>Well, it sounds reasonable. Those of us who are interested in getting your
>regular lists will sign up (I have); otherwise, let us know only about the
>really unusual stuff. As Bob says, classics (Child, Sharp, that lot),
>material drawn from field work, broadsides. And I'd add, out-of-print
>regional stuff (e.g., "Folk Ballads of New Mexico and Arizona").
>
>Peace,
>Paul
>
>
>

There will definitely be ballads at this event.
JR_______________Coming soon!EISTEDDFOD NEW YORK
Festival of Traditional Music
Friday to Sunday, August 8 to 10, 2003
Polytechnic University, Metrotech Center
Brooklyn, New YorkSponsored by...
New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club
(Folk Music Society of New York, Inc.)With the co-sponsorship of...
Folk Song Society of Greater Boston
Folklore Society of Greater Washington
Polytechnic UniversityFeaturing...
Howard Glasser, Director Emeritus
Mike Agranoff
Margaret Bennett
Ralph Bodington
Oscar Brand
The  Copper Family
Eletfa Hungarian Folk Ensemble
(with balladeer Kata Harsaczki)
Jerry Epstein
Tom Gibney
Joe Hickerson
David Jones
The Kossoy Sisters
Margaret MacArthur
Maggi Peirce
Jean Ritchie
John Roberts & Tony Barrand
Orrin Star & the Sultans of String
Dwayne Thorpe
Voices of Shalom
Andy Wallace
Hedy West (tentative)
Heather Wood
+ others to be announcedPreliminary schedule...Friday, August 8, 2003
Mid-morning extra trip to Ellis Island
7:30 - 10:30 PM Evening ConcertSaturday, August 9, 2003
10:00 AM - 7:30 PM Workshops, including...
2:00 - 4:00 PM Tanchaz (Hungarian Folk Dance)
6:00 - 7:30 PM Meet the Copper Family
Followed by informal singing and jamming for all.Sunday, August 10, 2003
10:30 AM - 1:30 PM Workshops
2:00 - 5:00 PM Afternoon ConcertAll-festival admission: $70.
Members of NY Pinewoods, FSSGB, or FSGW: $60.
Polytechnic students, faculty, and staff admitted free.Single day admission on a space-available basis only.
Friday: $25. Members: $20.
Saturday: $40. Members: $35.
Sunday: $35. Members: $30
Sunday concert only: $25. Members: $20.Air conditioned on-campus dormitory housing available:
$68 per room per night for up to 2 persons in a room.
Limited availability. Please make reservations before July 15.For more information...Website: http://www.eisteddfod-ny.org
E-mail: mailto:[unmask]
Phone: 1-718-426-8555
Postal address:
Eisteddfod-NY
New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club
450 7th Avenue, #972
New York, NY 10123

One of the most thorough sources for discussion of African American dance is Marshall & Jean Stearns' _Jazz Dance:  The Story of American Vernacular Dance_ (NY:  Da Capo Press, 1994, a reprint of an earlier publication).  Although a quick skimming just now hasn't turned up the term "breakdown," the Stearns do provide a detailed discussion of black "jigging," including Master Juba.  Chapters of most interest to anyone wanting to read about these early American dances are probably 5-8, pages 35-60.  Since this is a major book in American dance history, it should be easily found in libraries.Sue Attalla---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Abby Sale <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:20:17 -0400>On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 02:31:24 -0500, Sue Attalla wrote:
>
>>A supplement to my less detailed memory:
>>
>>In _Black Dance_ (page 42), Edward Thorpe discusses William Henry Lane (a.k.a. "Master Juba, the Greatest Dancer in
>
>Great!
>
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                        Boycott South Carolina!
>        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml
>

THE FREE BIT: I've put the TMSA's Scottish folk festivals list for
June-December 2003 on my website <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/>
(they have such godawful internal communication problems at the moment
that it obviously isn't going to make it onto their own website this
year).THE COMMERCIAL BIT: I have finished my collection "Old Scottish Flute
Music" on CD-ROM, using a similar approach to mny previous one, "Embro,
Embro: the hidden history of Edinburgh in its music".As far as I know it's the first collection of Scottish music specifically
for the flute to be published since 1890, and it's certainly the most
wide-ranging ever.  Virtually none of this music is in print anywhere
else, much of it comes from manuscripts that have never been published
or books that are now extremely rare, and much of it is *very* different
from anything you'll find on any recording.9.50 GBP including p&p (cheques or cash only) or the cash equivalent
of 11 GBP in other currencies (the extra is to allow for airmail).  No
other methods of payment yet.  See <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/flute/>
for more.CAMSCO hasn't got any yet but I could supply them that way eventually.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

 From "The Oxford Companion To Music" by Percy A SCHOLES [London: Oxford
University Press, 1938]BREAKDOWN: A noisy type of negro dance

<<I trust that my occasional "Blatant Semi-Commercial Announcements" of
books and recordings of (I hope) interest aren't offensive. I've
received a few requests from list members to continue (and possibly to
expand upon) these.>>Personally, I think they're just right.Peace,
Paul

Folks:On the question of commercialization, I would endorse the comments of
those who have noted how useful are the occasional postings announcing
this or that CD or publication is available.  Similarly, Dolores
Nichols' ebay scavengings have been very useful -- though of a different
nature in that she does not personally profit from effort.  I am
delighted when Jack Campian or Steve Roud announce new reference tools I
am not going to find in my local book store, good as it is.Were dealers to subscribe simply to bombard us with inappropriate
announcements, then the list mother can crack down.  For now, I am
grateful that others who love folklore and song as I do are also knowing
dealers in the tools of my avocation.NB: I confess that next February I will post a one-line announcement of
the publication of my biography of Woody Guthrie.Ed

I know that it has a definite place, now a days, in the musical terminology of Bluegrass. I'm sorry, I'm not a bluegrass expert and I can't speak with any authority here, but I know it's a form that is occasionally specified in contests; for example a con testant may need to play three tunes: one reel, one waltz and a breakdown.Kathleen---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:51:31 -0500
>From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
>Subject: Re: music term?
>To: [unmask]
>
>Gerald,
>
>Breakdown is more a dance term than a music term.

Folks:Which leads me to ask, is the "breakdown" in black tradition the inspiration for
"breakdancing"?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, June 12, 2003 0:31 am
Subject: Re: Breakdown> A supplement to my less detailed memory:
>
> In _Black Dance_ (page 42), Edward Thorpe discusses William Henry Lane
> (a.k.a. "Master Juba, the Greatest Dancer in ht World" who had learned
> from "a Negro jig-and reel dancer" and spent his early professional years
> "performing in such dances in the low dives, dance halls and saloons of
> lower Manhattan in what was known as the Five Points District . . . It was
> an area of brothels and rooming houses, mainly occupied by freed Negro
> slaves and poor Irish workers, so it is not surprising that the Irish jig
> became intermixed with the Negro dances."
>
> In _American Notes_,"Boz" (Charles Dickens) describes seeing Juba perform
> at Five Points:
>
> "Single shuffle, double shuffle, cut and cross-cut:  snapping his fingers,
> rolling his eyes, turning in his knees, presenting the backs of his legs
> infront, spinning about on his toes and heels like nothing but the man's
> fingers on the tambourine; dancing with two left legs, two right legs, two
> wooden legs, two wire legs, two spring legs--all sorts of legs and no legs-
> -what is this to him?  And in what walk of life, or dance of life, does
> man ever get such stimulating applause as thunders about him, when, having
> danced his partner off her feet, and himself too, he finishes by leaping
> gloriously on the bar counter, and calling for something to drink, with
> the chuckle of a million counterfeit Jim Crows in one inimitable sound."  -
> -quoted by Thorpe, page 44
>
> _American Notes_ includes a drawing of Master Juba doing a clog dance and
> another of two black dancers performing a breakdown in a saloon.  Their
> arms are outstretched and they lean backwards while seeming to do an
> exuberant clog dance. On the far left, a fiddler and banjo player are
> pictured from the rear; on the far right, claps the rhythm (typically
> syncopated).
> On page 46, Thorpe describes a minstrel show Walk Around:
>
> "The Walk Around--sometimes performed as a finale as well--was developed
> from the Afro-Caribbean Ring Dance and the Juba.  For sixteen bars or so
> the whole company would shuffle around in a circle; then one of the
> dancers would enter the centre of the ring and perform a Juba solo which
> was more readily known as a breakdown. When six dancers or soloists had
> all shown their paces they came downstage and danced together while the
> rest of the company patted time, or clapped hands and shuffled."
>
> Sue Attalla
>
>
>

Right.  Some of us are old enough to remember the once-popular Flatt and Scruggs recording of "Foggy Mountain Breakdown," for instance, probably rivaled only by their "Dueling Banjos" featured in the film "Deliverance."  Of course, bluegrass musicians are still playing both pieces.I may stick my neck out a bit on the dance information, but since the question was posted as a result of listening to ragtime, I can't help thinking that's most likely answer.  Rags were frequently named for the type of dance performed to them--cakewalks, slow drags, etc. If the name didn't include the dance type, often the subtitle or other descriptive cover label did.  Notice, too, that the competitive pieces you mention begin with two definite dances--reel and waltz.If you want to read something about breakdowns without tracking down Thorpe's and the Stearns' books, go to the Library of Congress American Memory site and search for "Jig, Clog, and Breakdown Dancing Made Easy."  It popped up as the first hit when I searched on "breakdown" a few minutes ago.Sue---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: [unmask]
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:41:36 -0400>I know that it has a definite place, now a days, in the musical terminology of Bluegrass. I'm sorry, I'm not a bluegrass expert and I can't speak with any authority here, but I know it's a form that is occasionally specified in contests; for example a con testant may need to play three tunes: one reel, one waltz and a breakdown.
>
>Kathleen
>
>---- Original message ----
>>Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:51:31 -0500
>>From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
>>Subject: Re: music term?
>>To: [unmask]
>>
>>Gerald,
>>
>>Breakdown is more a dance term than a music term.
>

Interesting question, and it makes sense.Sue---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: ed cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Thu, 12 Jun 2003 16:49:00 -0700>Folks:
>
>Which leads me to ask, is the "breakdown" in black tradition the inspiration for
>"breakdancing"?
>
>Ed
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
>Date: Thursday, June 12, 2003 0:31 am
>Subject: Re: Breakdown
>
>> A supplement to my less detailed memory:
>>
>> In _Black Dance_ (page 42), Edward Thorpe discusses William Henry Lane
>> (a.k.a. "Master Juba, the Greatest Dancer in ht World" who had learned
>> from "a Negro jig-and reel dancer" and spent his early professional years
>> "performing in such dances in the low dives, dance halls and saloons of
>> lower Manhattan in what was known as the Five Points District . . . It was
>> an area of brothels and rooming houses, mainly occupied by freed Negro
>> slaves and poor Irish workers, so it is not surprising that the Irish jig
>> became intermixed with the Negro dances."
>>
>> In _American Notes_,"Boz" (Charles Dickens) describes seeing Juba perform
>> at Five Points:
>>
>> "Single shuffle, double shuffle, cut and cross-cut:  snapping his fingers,
>> rolling his eyes, turning in his knees, presenting the backs of his legs
>> infront, spinning about on his toes and heels like nothing but the man's
>> fingers on the tambourine; dancing with two left legs, two right legs, two
>> wooden legs, two wire legs, two spring legs--all sorts of legs and no legs-
>> -what is this to him?  And in what walk of life, or dance of life, does
>> man ever get such stimulating applause as thunders about him, when, having
>> danced his partner off her feet, and himself too, he finishes by leaping
>> gloriously on the bar counter, and calling for something to drink, with
>> the chuckle of a million counterfeit Jim Crows in one inimitable sound."  -
>> -quoted by Thorpe, page 44
>>
>> _American Notes_ includes a drawing of Master Juba doing a clog dance and
>> another of two black dancers performing a breakdown in a saloon.  Their
>> arms are outstretched and they lean backwards while seeming to do an
>> exuberant clog dance. On the far left, a fiddler and banjo player are
>> pictured from the rear; on the far right, claps the rhythm (typically
>> syncopated).
>> On page 46, Thorpe describes a minstrel show Walk Around:
>>
>> "The Walk Around--sometimes performed as a finale as well--was developed
>> from the Afro-Caribbean Ring Dance and the Juba.  For sixteen bars or so
>> the whole company would shuffle around in a circle; then one of the
>> dancers would enter the centre of the ring and perform a Juba solo which
>> was more readily known as a breakdown. When six dancers or soloists had
>> all shown their paces they came downstage and danced together while the
>> rest of the company patted time, or clapped hands and shuffled."
>>
>> Sue Attalla
>>
>>
>>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dick:I wouldn't, couldn't argue.  I was merely leaping from Jan Brunvand's
encyclopedia entry on "breakdancing."As I understood it, a breakdown -- as in "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" -- is a 4/4
instrumental piece.  Indeed, long before Flatt and Scrugss, I was playing
"Cripple Creek" as a 4/4 "breakdown."  Ditto "Ida Red," "OLd Joe Clark," etc.See Judy McCulloh's book -- long out of print -- re: Ira Ford's circa 1940
fiddle tunes for a number of others.  (Judy, will you please bring it back?)Ed
----- Original Message -----
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, June 12, 2003 6:49 pm
Subject: Re: Breakdown> I don't know anything about "breakdown" in the black tradition, but
> break dancing started as dancing to the instrumental breaks between
> verses in popular music aimed at blacks.
>
> Or so I'm told.
>
> dick greenhaus
>
> ed cray wrote:
>
> >Folks:
> >
> >Which leads me to ask, is the "breakdown" in black tradition the
> inspiration for
> >"breakdancing"?
> >
> >Ed
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
> >Date: Thursday, June 12, 2003 0:31 am
> >Subject: Re: Breakdown
> >
> >
> >
> >>A supplement to my less detailed memory:
> >>
> >>In _Black Dance_ (page 42), Edward Thorpe discusses William Henry Lane
> >>(a.k.a. "Master Juba, the Greatest Dancer in ht World" who had learned
> >>from "a Negro jig-and reel dancer" and spent his early professional years
> >>"performing in such dances in the low dives, dance halls and saloons of
> >>lower Manhattan in what was known as the Five Points District . . . It was
> >>an area of brothels and rooming houses, mainly occupied by freed Negro
> >>slaves and poor Irish workers, so it is not surprising that the Irish jig
> >>became intermixed with the Negro dances."
> >>
> >>In _American Notes_,"Boz" (Charles Dickens) describes seeing Juba perform
> >>at Five Points:
> >>
> >>"Single shuffle, double shuffle, cut and cross-cut:  snapping his fingers,
> >>rolling his eyes, turning in his knees, presenting the backs of his legs
> >>infront, spinning about on his toes and heels like nothing but the man's
> >>fingers on the tambourine; dancing with two left legs, two right legs, two
> >>wooden legs, two wire legs, two spring legs--all sorts of legs and no
> legs-
> >>-what is this to him?  And in what walk of life, or dance of life, does
> >>man ever get such stimulating applause as thunders about him, when, having
> >>danced his partner off her feet, and himself too, he finishes by leaping
> >>gloriously on the bar counter, and calling for something to drink, with
> >>the chuckle of a million counterfeit Jim Crows in one inimitable sound."
> -
> >>-quoted by Thorpe, page 44
> >>
> >>_American Notes_ includes a drawing of Master Juba doing a clog dance and
> >>another of two black dancers performing a breakdown in a saloon.  Their
> >>arms are outstretched and they lean backwards while seeming to do an
> >>exuberant clog dance. On the far left, a fiddler and banjo player are
> >>pictured from the rear; on the far right, claps the rhythm (typically
> >>syncopated).
> >>On page 46, Thorpe describes a minstrel show Walk Around:
> >>
> >>"The Walk Around--sometimes performed as a finale as well--was developed
> >>from the Afro-Caribbean Ring Dance and the Juba.  For sixteen bars or so
> >>the whole company would shuffle around in a circle; then one of the
> >>dancers would enter the centre of the ring and perform a Juba solo which
> >>was more readily known as a breakdown. When six dancers or soloists had
> >>all shown their paces they came downstage and danced together while the
> >>rest of the company patted time, or clapped hands and shuffled."
> >>
> >>Sue Attalla
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Guys:Sue mentions "Dueling Banjos," originally (?) from the film "Deliverance."  Has
anyone other than me recognized that the tune is really "Yankee Doodle"?Ed----- Original Message -----
From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
Date: Thursday, June 12, 2003 5:25 pm
Subject: Re: music term?> Right.  Some of us are old enough to remember the once-popular Flatt and
> Scruggs recording of "Foggy Mountain Breakdown," for instance, probably
> rivaled only by their "Dueling Banjos" featured in the film "Deliverance."
> Of course, bluegrass musicians are still playing both pieces.
>
> I may stick my neck out a bit on the dance information, but since the
> question was posted as a result of listening to ragtime, I can't help
> thinking that's most likely answer.  Rags were frequently named for the
> type of dance performed to them--cakewalks, slow drags, etc. If the name
> didn't include the dance type, often the subtitle or other descriptive
> cover label did.  Notice, too, that the competitive pieces you mention
> begin with two definite dances--reel and waltz.
>
> If you want to read something about breakdowns without tracking down
> Thorpe's and the Stearns' books, go to the Library of Congress American
> Memory site and search for "Jig, Clog, and Breakdown Dancing Made Easy."
> It popped up as the first hit when I searched on "breakdown" a few minutes
> ago.
> Sue
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: [unmask]
> Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
> Date:          Thu, 12 Jun 2003 17:41:36 -0400
>
> >I know that it has a definite place, now a days, in the musical
> terminology of Bluegrass. I'm sorry, I'm not a bluegrass expert and I
> can't speak with any authority here, but I know it's a form that is
> occasionally specified in contests; for example a con testant may need to
> play three tunes: one reel, one waltz and a breakdown.
> >
> >Kathleen
> >
> >---- Original message ----
> >>Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 00:51:31 -0500
> >>From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
> >>Subject: Re: music term?
> >>To: [unmask]
> >>
> >>Gerald,
> >>
> >>Breakdown is more a dance term than a music term.
> >
>
>
>

> As I understood it, a breakdown -- as in "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" --
> is a 4/4 instrumental piece.  Indeed, long before Flatt and Scruggs,
> I was playing "Cripple Creek" as a 4/4 "breakdown."  Ditto "Ida Red,"
> "Old Joe Clark," etc.Whereas there is an often-played piece in the Highland pipe repertoire
called "The Banjo Breakdown" - it's a 6/8 jig.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".
---> off-list mail to "j-c" rather than "ballad-l" at this site, please. <---

>Sue mentions "Dueling Banjos," originally (?) from the film
>"Deliverance."  Has
>anyone other than me recognized that the tune is really "Yankee Doodle"?
>
>EdYes, but only part of it.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Dick,Your comment about the origin of break dancing  reminded me of something:If we look at Scott Joplin's "Stoptime Rag" and "Ragtime Dance," for instance, we find brief pauses.  Thorpe's _Black Dance_ explains the use of this "stoptime," which gave its name to the rag: "In 1910 Joplin had composed the "Stop-time Rag" which included the device of suddenly stopping the music while the dancers would fill in the silence with the sounds of their feet on the floor:  tapping out the rhythm or sliding over the boards for a bar or two."  "The Ragtime Dance" not only included this same stop-time, but also served as a showcase for a variety of other black dances, such as the slow-drag and the cakewalk.My great grandfather, Wm. Christopher O'Hare (a much lesser-known ragtime composer than Joplin!) indicated similar pauses in "The Sand-Dancers" (M. Witmark & Sons, 1907). Commenting to me on these pauses, a prominent music scholar once asked, "Can you imagine trying to dance to that?"  His point seemed valid, but left me with a mystery to solve.  Why name the piece "The Sand-Dancers" if no one could dance to it?  At the time, I'd been trying unsuccessfully to find information on sand-dancing.  When I eventually did (and before I knew about dance filling in the breaks in stop-time), I decided that he'd probably made a wrong assumption about "The Sand-Dancers."  Perhaps dancers were not intended to dance to the full piece, but only during the breaks.  Dancer "Pigmeat" Markham, who performed a sand-dance with partner Enoch Baker in Florida Blossoms minstrel shows, describes the effect:  "We kept a pile of sand in the 'possum belly' of the railroad car--a compartment for tools--!
 and spread some of it on the stage for our dance.  The music stopped while the audience listened to our feet scraping in tempo" (Stearns, Jazz Dance, 73).  Gilbert Douglas provides a more detailed description on page 52 of American Vaudeville:  Its Life and Times:  "The dancing, all on the balls of the feet, was done in shuffles and slides instead of taps.  The soles of the shoes were thin and hard, and the dancer, shifting and digging in the sand, produced a sharp, staccato sound which could be doubled and tripled at will."  Finally, dancer Howard "Sandman" Sims elaborates on the percussive effect:  "The feet are a set of drums:  the heels are the bass, the toes the melody, and you get off rim shots (like the drumming technique) with the sides of the foot, while sand is the sound of brushes on snare drums" (Quoted by Sally R. Sommer. "Sims, Sandman." International Encyclopedia of Dance, Vol. 5, 601).This may be a stretch, but perhaps break dancing was a continuation of the tradition--although a variation on it.  This time the music didn't stop; the dancing became more a visual, rather than an auditory, rhythm.But I realize this doesn't shed any light on breakdowns . . .Sue---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: vze29j8v <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Thu, 12 Jun 2003 21:49:03 -0400>I don't know anything about "breakdown" in the black tradition, but
>break dancing started as dancing to the instrumental breaks between
>verses in popular music aimed at blacks.
>
>Or so I'm told.
>
>dick greenhaus
>
>ed cray wrote:
>
>>Folks:
>>
>>Which leads me to ask, is the "breakdown" in black tradition the inspiration for
>>"breakdancing"?
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Sue Attalla <[unmask]>
>>Date: Thursday, June 12, 2003 0:31 am
>>Subject: Re: Breakdown
>>
>>
>>
>>>A supplement to my less detailed memory:
>>>
>>>In _Black Dance_ (page 42), Edward Thorpe discusses William Henry Lane
>>>(a.k.a. "Master Juba, the Greatest Dancer in ht World" who had learned
>>>from "a Negro jig-and reel dancer" and spent his early professional years
>>>"performing in such dances in the low dives, dance halls and saloons of
>>>lower Manhattan in what was known as the Five Points District . . . It was
>>>an area of brothels and rooming houses, mainly occupied by freed Negro
>>>slaves and poor Irish workers, so it is not surprising that the Irish jig
>>>became intermixed with the Negro dances."
>>>
>>>In _American Notes_,"Boz" (Charles Dickens) describes seeing Juba perform
>>>at Five Points:
>>>
>>>"Single shuffle, double shuffle, cut and cross-cut:  snapping his fingers,
>>>rolling his eyes, turning in his knees, presenting the backs of his legs
>>>infront, spinning about on his toes and heels like nothing but the man's
>>>fingers on the tambourine; dancing with two left legs, two right legs, two
>>>wooden legs, two wire legs, two spring legs--all sorts of legs and no legs-
>>>-what is this to him?  And in what walk of life, or dance of life, does
>>>man ever get such stimulating applause as thunders about him, when, having
>>>danced his partner off her feet, and himself too, he finishes by leaping
>>>gloriously on the bar counter, and calling for something to drink, with
>>>the chuckle of a million counterfeit Jim Crows in one inimitable sound."  -
>>>-quoted by Thorpe, page 44
>>>
>>>_American Notes_ includes a drawing of Master Juba doing a clog dance and
>>>another of two black dancers performing a breakdown in a saloon.  Their
>>>arms are outstretched and they lean backwards while seeming to do an
>>>exuberant clog dance. On the far left, a fiddler and banjo player are
>>>pictured from the rear; on the far right, claps the rhythm (typically
>>>syncopated).
>>>On page 46, Thorpe describes a minstrel show Walk Around:
>>>
>>>"The Walk Around--sometimes performed as a finale as well--was developed
>>>from the Afro-Caribbean Ring Dance and the Juba.  For sixteen bars or so
>>>the whole company would shuffle around in a circle; then one of the
>>>dancers would enter the centre of the ring and perform a Juba solo which
>>>was more readily known as a breakdown. When six dancers or soloists had
>>>all shown their paces they came downstage and danced together while the
>>>rest of the company patted time, or clapped hands and shuffled."
>>>
>>>Sue Attalla

>Date:    Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:54:05 +0100
>From:    Jack Campin <[unmask]>
>Subject: Breakdown
>
> > As I understood it, a breakdown -- as in "Foggy Mountain Breakdown" --
> > is a 4/4 instrumental piece.  Indeed, long before Flatt and Scruggs,
> > I was playing "Cripple Creek" as a 4/4 "breakdown."  Ditto "Ida Red,"
> > "Old Joe Clark," etc.
>
>Whereas there is an often-played piece in the Highland pipe repertoire
>called "The Banjo Breakdown" - it's a 6/8 jig.With rare exceptions, in the US Southern Mountain repertoire there aren't
jigs, and the term "reel" is seldom used by old-timers.  A breakdown is a
tune you could square dance or flatfoot/clog/buckdance to, as opposed to a
waltz, scottische, or most often a song.  In other words -- a breakdown is
a reel.  "Now we're gonna play a breakdown" means "Get up and dance."Toby Koosman
Knoxville, TN

Didn't Mississippi John Hurt call "Buckdancer's Choice" "Stoptime?"Dave Gardner>From: "Sue Attalla"
> Dick,
> Your comment about the origin of break dancing  reminded me of something:
> If we look at Scott Joplin's "Stoptime Rag" and "Ragtime Dance," for
instance, we find brief pauses.  >Thorpe's _Black Dance_ explains the use of
this "stoptime," which gave its name to the rag: "In 1910 >Joplin had
composed the "Stop-time Rag" which included the device of suddenly stopping
the music

Hi!        I think that this week's list has a number of interesting items.
These items are in addition to all of the books that seem to be always
available (copies of most of the Botkin & Lomax books plus at least two
copies of Percy's Reliques). For some reason, there is only one songster
this week. :-?        SONGSTER        3528810677 - The Universal Songster Vol. 2, date unknown, $5
(ends Jun-21-03 22:18:27 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3527418384 - Singing About It Folk Songs in Southern Indiana by
List, 1977?, $5 (ends Jun-16-03 20:42:06 PDT)        2537796577 - FOLK SONG IN ENGLAND by Lloyd, 1967, $21.99 (ends
Jun-17-03 08:27:16 PDT)        2537899223 - Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians as sung by
Jean Ritchie, 1965, $9.50 (ends Jun-17-03 17:47:59 PDT)        3527633333 - FOLK VISIONS & VOICES TRADITIONAL MUSIC AND SONG IN
NORTH GEORGIA by Rosenbaum, 1983, $9.99 (ends Jun-17-03 22:09:06 PDT)        3527792393 - KANSAS FOLKLORE by Sackett & Koch, 1976, $8.99
(ends Jun-18-03 15:20:25 PDT)        3528415018 - Saints of Sage and Saddle; Folklore among the
Mormons by Lea, 1956, $9.99 (ends Jun-18-03 15:33:21 PDT)        3527850122 - A Literary History of the Popular Ballad by Fowler,
1968, $4.99 (ends Jun-18-03 18:52:34 PDT)        3528006742 - Stars Fell on Alabama by Carmer, 1934, $9.99 (ends
Jun-19-03 10:21:11 PDT)        2538472863 - The Mike Harding Collection Folk Songs of
Lancashire, 3.99 GBP (ends Jun-19-03 13:30:26 PDT)        3528169526 - IRISH STREET BALLADS by O Lochlainn, 1960, $4.50
(ends Jun-19-03 18:26:07 PDT)        2538723477 - TRADITIONAL BLACK MUSIC-BALLADS by Silverman, 1995,
$5.99 (ends Jun-20-03 10:41:48 PDT)        3528385316 - American Naval Songs & Ballads by Neeser, 1938,
$24.99 (ends Jun-20-03 13:53:32 PDT)        2538837450 - 2 books of Old Time Songs & Mountain Ballads by
Kincaid, 1930's, $9.99 (ends Jun-20-03 19:01:59 PDT)        3528516120 - OZARK FOLKSONGS by Randolph, 4 volumes, 1946-1950,
$29 (ends Jun-20-03 19:54:08 PDT)        3528519797 - AMERICAN MOUNTAIN SONGS by Richardson, 1955, $9.99
(ends Jun-20-03 20:02:35 PDT)        3528532234 - FOLKSONGS OF MISSISSIPPI AND THEIR BACKGROUND by
Hudson, 1936, $12.99 (ends Jun-20-03 20:28:07 PDT)        3528040763 - Ancient Songs and Ballads by Ritson, 1877, 149 GBP
(ends Jun-22-03 11:51:31 PDT)        2538827823 - Folk-Songs of the Southern United States by Combs,
1967, $7.99 (ends Jun-23-03 18:23:27 PDT)        3527896032 - Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky by
Thomas, 1964 printing, Jun-23-03 19:05:00 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dolores and all,The Randolph set and the Folksongs of Mississippi look very tempting at
first glance.  The only caution I give is that the seller's negative
feedback rating is horrendous.  As Sergeant Esterhaus used to say on
Hill Street Blues, "Be careful out there."Lew>>> [unmask] 06/15/03 04:13PM >>>
Hi!        I think that this week's list has a number of interesting
items.
These items are in addition to all of the books that seem to be always
available (copies of most of the Botkin & Lomax books plus at least
two
copies of Percy's Reliques). For some reason, there is only one
songster
this week. :-?        SONGSTER        3528810677 - The Universal Songster Vol. 2, date unknown, $5
(ends Jun-21-03 22:18:27 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3527418384 - Singing About It Folk Songs in Southern Indiana
by
List, 1977?, $5 (ends Jun-16-03 20:42:06 PDT)        2537796577 - FOLK SONG IN ENGLAND by Lloyd, 1967, $21.99 (ends
Jun-17-03 08:27:16 PDT)        2537899223 - Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians as sung
by
Jean Ritchie, 1965, $9.50 (ends Jun-17-03 17:47:59 PDT)        3527633333 - FOLK VISIONS & VOICES TRADITIONAL MUSIC AND SONG
IN
NORTH GEORGIA by Rosenbaum, 1983, $9.99 (ends Jun-17-03 22:09:06 PDT)        3527792393 - KANSAS FOLKLORE by Sackett & Koch, 1976, $8.99
(ends Jun-18-03 15:20:25 PDT)        3528415018 - Saints of Sage and Saddle; Folklore among the
Mormons by Lea, 1956, $9.99 (ends Jun-18-03 15:33:21 PDT)        3527850122 - A Literary History of the Popular Ballad by
Fowler,
1968, $4.99 (ends Jun-18-03 18:52:34 PDT)        3528006742 - Stars Fell on Alabama by Carmer, 1934, $9.99
(ends
Jun-19-03 10:21:11 PDT)        2538472863 - The Mike Harding Collection Folk Songs of
Lancashire, 3.99 GBP (ends Jun-19-03 13:30:26 PDT)        3528169526 - IRISH STREET BALLADS by O Lochlainn, 1960, $4.50
(ends Jun-19-03 18:26:07 PDT)        2538723477 - TRADITIONAL BLACK MUSIC-BALLADS by Silverman,
1995,
$5.99 (ends Jun-20-03 10:41:48 PDT)        3528385316 - American Naval Songs & Ballads by Neeser, 1938,
$24.99 (ends Jun-20-03 13:53:32 PDT)        2538837450 - 2 books of Old Time Songs & Mountain Ballads by
Kincaid, 1930's, $9.99 (ends Jun-20-03 19:01:59 PDT)        3528516120 - OZARK FOLKSONGS by Randolph, 4 volumes,
1946-1950,
$29 (ends Jun-20-03 19:54:08 PDT)        3528519797 - AMERICAN MOUNTAIN SONGS by Richardson, 1955,
$9.99
(ends Jun-20-03 20:02:35 PDT)        3528532234 - FOLKSONGS OF MISSISSIPPI AND THEIR BACKGROUND by
Hudson, 1936, $12.99 (ends Jun-20-03 20:28:07 PDT)        3528040763 - Ancient Songs and Ballads by Ritson, 1877, 149
GBP
(ends Jun-22-03 11:51:31 PDT)        2538827823 - Folk-Songs of the Southern United States by
Combs,
1967, $7.99 (ends Jun-23-03 18:23:27 PDT)        3527896032 - Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky by
Thomas, 1964 printing, Jun-23-03 19:05:00 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

>>> [unmask] 06/15/03 04:13PM >>>
Hi!        I think that this week's list has a number of interesting
items.
These items are in addition to all of the books that seem to be always
available (copies of most of the Botkin & Lomax books plus at least
two
copies of Percy's Reliques). For some reason, there is only one
songster
this week. :-?        SONGSTER        3528810677 - The Universal Songster Vol. 2, date unknown, $5
(ends Jun-21-03 22:18:27 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3527418384 - Singing About It Folk Songs in Southern Indiana
by
List, 1977?, $5 (ends Jun-16-03 20:42:06 PDT)        2537796577 - FOLK SONG IN ENGLAND by Lloyd, 1967, $21.99 (ends
Jun-17-03 08:27:16 PDT)        2537899223 - Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians as sung
by
Jean Ritchie, 1965, $9.50 (ends Jun-17-03 17:47:59 PDT)        3527633333 - FOLK VISIONS & VOICES TRADITIONAL MUSIC AND SONG
IN
NORTH GEORGIA by Rosenbaum, 1983, $9.99 (ends Jun-17-03 22:09:06 PDT)        3527792393 - KANSAS FOLKLORE by Sackett & Koch, 1976, $8.99
(ends Jun-18-03 15:20:25 PDT)        3528415018 - Saints of Sage and Saddle; Folklore among the
Mormons by Lea, 1956, $9.99 (ends Jun-18-03 15:33:21 PDT)        3527850122 - A Literary History of the Popular Ballad by
Fowler,
1968, $4.99 (ends Jun-18-03 18:52:34 PDT)        3528006742 - Stars Fell on Alabama by Carmer, 1934, $9.99
(ends
Jun-19-03 10:21:11 PDT)        2538472863 - The Mike Harding Collection Folk Songs of
Lancashire, 3.99 GBP (ends Jun-19-03 13:30:26 PDT)        3528169526 - IRISH STREET BALLADS by O Lochlainn, 1960, $4.50
(ends Jun-19-03 18:26:07 PDT)        2538723477 - TRADITIONAL BLACK MUSIC-BALLADS by Silverman,
1995,
$5.99 (ends Jun-20-03 10:41:48 PDT)        3528385316 - American Naval Songs & Ballads by Neeser, 1938,
$24.99 (ends Jun-20-03 13:53:32 PDT)        2538837450 - 2 books of Old Time Songs & Mountain Ballads by
Kincaid, 1930's, $9.99 (ends Jun-20-03 19:01:59 PDT)        3528516120 - OZARK FOLKSONGS by Randolph, 4 volumes,
1946-1950,
$29 (ends Jun-20-03 19:54:08 PDT)        3528519797 - AMERICAN MOUNTAIN SONGS by Richardson, 1955,
$9.99
(ends Jun-20-03 20:02:35 PDT)        3528532234 - FOLKSONGS OF MISSISSIPPI AND THEIR BACKGROUND by
Hudson, 1936, $12.99 (ends Jun-20-03 20:28:07 PDT)        3528040763 - Ancient Songs and Ballads by Ritson, 1877, 149
GBP
(ends Jun-22-03 11:51:31 PDT)        2538827823 - Folk-Songs of the Southern United States by
Combs,
1967, $7.99 (ends Jun-23-03 18:23:27 PDT)        3527896032 - Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky by
Thomas, 1964 printing, Jun-23-03 19:05:00 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dolores and all,The Randolph set and the Folksongs of Mississippi look very tempting
at
first glance.  The only caution I give is that the seller's negative
feedback rating is horrendous.  As Sergeant Esterhaus used to say on
Hill Street Blues, "Be careful out there."Lew>>> [unmask] 06/15/03 04:13PM >>>
Hi!        I think that this week's list has a number of interesting
items.
These items are in addition to all of the books that seem to be always
available (copies of most of the Botkin & Lomax books plus at least
two
copies of Percy's Reliques). For some reason, there is only one
songster
this week. :-?        SONGSTER        3528810677 - The Universal Songster Vol. 2, date unknown, $5
(ends Jun-21-03 22:18:27 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3527418384 - Singing About It Folk Songs in Southern Indiana
by
List, 1977?, $5 (ends Jun-16-03 20:42:06 PDT)        2537796577 - FOLK SONG IN ENGLAND by Lloyd, 1967, $21.99 (ends
Jun-17-03 08:27:16 PDT)        2537899223 - Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians as sung
by
Jean Ritchie, 1965, $9.50 (ends Jun-17-03 17:47:59 PDT)        3527633333 - FOLK VISIONS & VOICES TRADITIONAL MUSIC AND SONG
IN
NORTH GEORGIA by Rosenbaum, 1983, $9.99 (ends Jun-17-03 22:09:06 PDT)        3527792393 - KANSAS FOLKLORE by Sackett & Koch, 1976, $8.99
(ends Jun-18-03 15:20:25 PDT)        3528415018 - Saints of Sage and Saddle; Folklore among the
Mormons by Lea, 1956, $9.99 (ends Jun-18-03 15:33:21 PDT)        3527850122 - A Literary History of the Popular Ballad by
Fowler,
1968, $4.99 (ends Jun-18-03 18:52:34 PDT)        3528006742 - Stars Fell on Alabama by Carmer, 1934, $9.99
(ends
Jun-19-03 10:21:11 PDT)        2538472863 - The Mike Harding Collection Folk Songs of
Lancashire, 3.99 GBP (ends Jun-19-03 13:30:26 PDT)        3528169526 - IRISH STREET BALLADS by O Lochlainn, 1960, $4.50
(ends Jun-19-03 18:26:07 PDT)        2538723477 - TRADITIONAL BLACK MUSIC-BALLADS by Silverman,
1995,
$5.99 (ends Jun-20-03 10:41:48 PDT)        3528385316 - American Naval Songs & Ballads by Neeser, 1938,
$24.99 (ends Jun-20-03 13:53:32 PDT)        2538837450 - 2 books of Old Time Songs & Mountain Ballads by
Kincaid, 1930's, $9.99 (ends Jun-20-03 19:01:59 PDT)        3528516120 - OZARK FOLKSONGS by Randolph, 4 volumes,
1946-1950,
$29 (ends Jun-20-03 19:54:08 PDT)        3528519797 - AMERICAN MOUNTAIN SONGS by Richardson, 1955,
$9.99
(ends Jun-20-03 20:02:35 PDT)        3528532234 - FOLKSONGS OF MISSISSIPPI AND THEIR BACKGROUND by
Hudson, 1936, $12.99 (ends Jun-20-03 20:28:07 PDT)        3528040763 - Ancient Songs and Ballads by Ritson, 1877, 149
GBP
(ends Jun-22-03 11:51:31 PDT)        2538827823 - Folk-Songs of the Southern United States by
Combs,
1967, $7.99 (ends Jun-23-03 18:23:27 PDT)        3527896032 - Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky by
Thomas, 1964 printing, Jun-23-03 19:05:00 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On Sun, Jun 15, 2003 at 07:32:53PM -0400, Lewis Becker wrote:
>
> Dolores and all,
>
> The Randolph set and the Folksongs of Mississippi look very tempting
> at
> first glance.  The only caution I give is that the seller's negative
> feedback rating is horrendous.  As Sergeant Esterhaus used to say on
> Hill Street Blues, "Be careful out there."
>
> Lew
>Lew,
        Thank you for your comment and warning; however, may I point out
- Researching, editing and posting the weekly lists takes considerable time
 and effort. I do not have the time to research each sellers feedback as well.
That is the responsibility of each person who considers bidding on an item.
Caution is recommended in a live auction and even more so on the web.
Unfortunately, not every seller is honest. (Ask Don about a tool dealer
named Al Babin some time.) :-(                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

If I am not mistaken, the Universal Songster is not a songster in the usual
sense, but quite a hefty volume of lyrics to a wide variety of songs,
including a number of ballads.-- Bill McCAt 07:32 PM 6/15/2003 -0400, Lewis Becker wrote:
>Dolores and all,
>
>The Randolph set and the Folksongs of Mississippi look very tempting
>at
>first glance.  The only caution I give is that the seller's negative
>feedback rating is horrendous.  As Sergeant Esterhaus used to say on
>Hill Street Blues, "Be careful out there."
>
>Lew
>
>
> >>> [unmask] 06/15/03 04:13PM >>>
>Hi!
>
>         I think that this week's list has a number of interesting
>items.
>These items are in addition to all of the books that seem to be always
>available (copies of most of the Botkin & Lomax books plus at least
>two
>copies of Percy's Reliques). For some reason, there is only one
>songster
>this week. :-?
>
>         SONGSTER
>
>         3528810677 - The Universal Songster Vol. 2, date unknown, $5
>(ends Jun-21-03 22:18:27 PDT)
>
>         SONGBOOKS, ETC.
>
>         3527418384 - Singing About It Folk Songs in Southern Indiana
>by
>List, 1977?, $5 (ends Jun-16-03 20:42:06 PDT)
>
>         2537796577 - FOLK SONG IN ENGLAND by Lloyd, 1967, $21.99 (ends
>Jun-17-03 08:27:16 PDT)
>
>         2537899223 - Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians as sung
>by
>Jean Ritchie, 1965, $9.50 (ends Jun-17-03 17:47:59 PDT)
>
>         3527633333 - FOLK VISIONS & VOICES TRADITIONAL MUSIC AND SONG
>IN
>NORTH GEORGIA by Rosenbaum, 1983, $9.99 (ends Jun-17-03 22:09:06 PDT)
>
>         3527792393 - KANSAS FOLKLORE by Sackett & Koch, 1976, $8.99
>(ends Jun-18-03 15:20:25 PDT)
>
>         3528415018 - Saints of Sage and Saddle; Folklore among the
>Mormons by Lea, 1956, $9.99 (ends Jun-18-03 15:33:21 PDT)
>
>         3527850122 - A Literary History of the Popular Ballad by
>Fowler,
>1968, $4.99 (ends Jun-18-03 18:52:34 PDT)
>
>         3528006742 - Stars Fell on Alabama by Carmer, 1934, $9.99
>(ends
>Jun-19-03 10:21:11 PDT)
>
>         2538472863 - The Mike Harding Collection Folk Songs of
>Lancashire, 3.99 GBP (ends Jun-19-03 13:30:26 PDT)
>
>         3528169526 - IRISH STREET BALLADS by O Lochlainn, 1960, $4.50
>(ends Jun-19-03 18:26:07 PDT)
>
>         2538723477 - TRADITIONAL BLACK MUSIC-BALLADS by Silverman,
>1995,
>$5.99 (ends Jun-20-03 10:41:48 PDT)
>
>         3528385316 - American Naval Songs & Ballads by Neeser, 1938,
>$24.99 (ends Jun-20-03 13:53:32 PDT)
>
>         2538837450 - 2 books of Old Time Songs & Mountain Ballads by
>Kincaid, 1930's, $9.99 (ends Jun-20-03 19:01:59 PDT)
>
>         3528516120 - OZARK FOLKSONGS by Randolph, 4 volumes,
>1946-1950,
>$29 (ends Jun-20-03 19:54:08 PDT)
>
>         3528519797 - AMERICAN MOUNTAIN SONGS by Richardson, 1955,
>$9.99
>(ends Jun-20-03 20:02:35 PDT)
>
>         3528532234 - FOLKSONGS OF MISSISSIPPI AND THEIR BACKGROUND by
>Hudson, 1936, $12.99 (ends Jun-20-03 20:28:07 PDT)
>
>         3528040763 - Ancient Songs and Ballads by Ritson, 1877, 149
>GBP
>(ends Jun-22-03 11:51:31 PDT)
>
>         2538827823 - Folk-Songs of the Southern United States by
>Combs,
>1967, $7.99 (ends Jun-23-03 18:23:27 PDT)
>
>         3527896032 - Ballad Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky by
>Thomas, 1964 printing, Jun-23-03 19:05:00 PDT)
>
>                                 Happy Bidding!
>                                 Dolores
>
>--
>Dolores Nichols                 |
>D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
>Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>         --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

>
>Lew,
>         Thank you for your comment and warning; however, may I point out
>- Researching, editing and posting the weekly lists takes considerable time
>  and effort. I do not have the time to research each sellers feedback as
> well.Dolores,I hope you didn't think Lew was chiding you for recommending a volume from
a shady dealer.  I think we all understand that you try to include on your
list everything that is offered out there, and that you neither do nor
possibly could check out each dealer's rating.  That's our responsibility
if we decide to order--and somebody who wants something badly enough might
be willing to take a chance--and might do all right.  We don't want a
censored list.-and we are very grateful for what you do.  It is a great service.--For what it's worth,   Bill McCarthy

On 6/16/03, Bill McCarthy wrote:[ ... ]>-and we are very grateful for what you do.  It is a great service.I'm going to second that. Every book I've gotten on eBay has been
a result of these lists. And, given my needs (it's more important
that I keep getting *some* books every few months, so that the
Ballad Index keeps growing, but I don't really need particular
books), it's an especially useful service for me.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Hi folks,
I just want to endorse what Ed Cray just
said.  So far, just right -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360
*** FRIENDS: If your Reply message is Rejected by my spam-fighting ISP,
please try sending it to: [unmask] OR [unmask]

I agree completely.
Norm Cohen> Dolores,
>
> I hope you didn't think Lew was chiding you for recommending a volume from
> a shady dealer.  I think we all understand that you try to include on your
> list everything that is offered out there, and that you neither do nor
> possibly could check out each dealer's rating.  That's our responsibility
> if we decide to order--and somebody who wants something badly enough might
> be willing to take a chance--and might do all right.  We don't want a
> censored list.
>
> -and we are very grateful for what you do.  It is a great service.
>
> --For what it's worth,
>
>    Bill McCarthy
>

Bruce:
I don't think I ever thanked you for this--tho I'm not sure how I can use it
without more information.
Maybe it will turn up.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Olson" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Songs in newspapers> Norm Cohen wrote:
> >
> > Friends:
> > I'm interested in compiling a list of newspapers and magazines,
especially
> > from late 19th and early 20th century, that had regular columns
featuring
> > old songs.  I'm aware of May K. McCord's "Hillbilly Heartbeats" in
> > Springfield; of Montreal's Family Herald & Evening Star's "Old
Favorites",
> > of the Gordon/Frothingham series in Advanture Magazine, and the
occasional
> > tidbits in the Boston Evening Transcript. Can anyone supply information
on
> > others?  Much obliged for your help (and apologies for cross-listing)
> > Norm Cohen
>
> Norm:
>
> I have a scrapbook that I picked up at a secondhand bookstore
> in Washington state about 25 years ago. It consists of American
> popular songs with music, 36 of them, that were cut out of a
> newspaper and pasted into it.
>
> One song which was inserted near the end, without cutting and
> pasting, is among a few pages of the Montreal Sunday Herald,
> Dec. 7, 1913. This has serial number 392 on the song.
>
> I'm pretty certain that the others are from a different newspaper, and
> they have serial numbers on the songs running up to #75, and the songs
> have copyright dates of c 1905-10. I don't know for sure which
> newspaper.
>
> At the bottom of a column on the back of one sheet is the statement
> 'Read the Daily Courier', which is probably the name of the newspaper.
> What little I can piece together from fragments of advertisements on the
> back of sheets is that it was probably published in the area of New York
> or Connecticut.
>
> Sorry I don't have better data for you.
>
> On my website from the scrapbook collection is "The Bathing Song",
> copyright 1908 (Chorus- Mother may I go out to swim, Yes my darling
> daughter, Hand your clothes on a hickory limb, But don't
> go near the water/ You may look cute in a bathing suit, But act
> just as you oughter, Now and then you can flirt with the men,.
> But don't go near the water) [qv in the Opie's 'Oxford Dictionary
> of Nursery Rhymes'.]
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> broadside ballads at my website <A
> href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Just so people don't get me wrong, here is a message I sent privately to
Dolores yesterday.Dolores,I am sending this privately to avoid clogging up the list serv.  Never
for a moment did I mean to suggest that you had any responsibility with
respect to noting a seller's negative feedback.  My email was purely
cautionary.  As I have said before on the list, I stand in awe - and
grateful awe, at that - at what you do for the list.  I am amazed at
this burden that you have lovingly shouldered week after week. I
certainly never ever thought or meant to imply that you should do MORE
than you already do.  I am extremely grateful for what you do.Lew>>> [unmask] 06/17/03 12:09AM >>>
I agree completely.
Norm Cohen> Dolores,
>
> I hope you didn't think Lew was chiding you for recommending a volume
from
> a shady dealer.  I think we all understand that you try to include on
your
> list everything that is offered out there, and that you neither do
nor
> possibly could check out each dealer's rating.  That's our
responsibility
> if we decide to order--and somebody who wants something badly enough
might
> be willing to take a chance--and might do all right.  We don't want
a
> censored list.
>
> -and we are very grateful for what you do.  It is a great service.
>
> --For what it's worth,
>
>    Bill McCarthy
>

Folks:I received the following message this morning.  In response, I gave him
the names and telephone numbers of list members Judy McCulloh and Ron
Cohen; Studs Terkel; Archie Green and Joe Hickerson.I wanted to provide Stephen's address, but have lost it in a conversion
from old to new computers.Can anyone suggest others Adam Brown might contact?  Can someone please
send me Stephen's email address?Ed-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr. Cray,My name is Adam Fleming Brown. My father was Fleming Brown, Stephen
Wade's teacher in Chicago. My father died many years ago. Importunely my
mother and father divorced when I was very young. I have been trying to
find out more about my father and his music.The reason I'm writing you is, I hope that you may know how I could
reach Stephen Wade. I'm not even sure if he is still alive. I would like
very much to find more recordings of my father and hopefully learn more
about him.I know this is a stretch, I hope that you don't mind my writing you for
help. I have tried the Old Town School of Folk Music. I have yet to
receive a response.I would appreciate any help you could give in my quest.Best regards,

Folks:I failed to include Adam Brown's address in the porevious email.  'Tis:Adam Brown <[unmask]>Ed

Sounds very terrif.  They couldn't be persuaded to move it to an nice
university campus in southeastern Mass with free parking & easy access, could
they?Well I tried.  Any parking directions gonna be offerred?  (There are scary
lots in the neighborhood, I know from experience, but last event I went to
at this place the on-campus parking lot remained a mystery, as did the fee
structure.  (Are they gonna fix this for the car-dependent far-off commuters,
or should we resign ourselves to buses & trains?)

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.