On 3/22/03, [unmask] wrote:>I'd also like to learn more about "In good old colony times," because it looks suspiciously like it would be a song written in the late 19th century (ie, popular theater music) based on the fact that in the 18th century, millers, weavers, and tailors took some of their goods "off the top" and cheated their customers.  The song often appears in anthologies of "colonial music," but I'm not sure I should believe that.  Pete BradyIf we had only the song itself as evidence, I would have to agree.
But there is counter-evidence in its distribution. The song is known
in much of England and all parts of the U. S. east of the Mississippi.
It is found in Belden, Brown, Cazden et al, Cox, Eddy, Pound, Randolph,
and Sharp.What's more, Cazden et al note point to several songsters of the
1860s in which it was deliberately amplified. Hence it must have
been well-known by then.Thus it can't be late eighteenth century, and its distribution
argues that it's probably much earlier than the earliest known
copies (those 1860s songsters).--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Adam Miller wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I'd like to learn more about the origins of the English folk song "Three
> Jolly Rogues of Lynne:"
>
> "In good old colony days when we lived under the King
> There was a Miller and a Weaver and a little Tailor
> Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne
> Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne, Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne"
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam Miller
> Laura Lind Music
> P.O. Box 620754
> Woodside, CA  94062
> (650)  494-1941
> [unmask]
> http://www.lauralind.comThe song is a result of a process of evolution.A 17th version commences "When Arthur first in court began", an
18th century one- "In days when good King Stephen reigned", and
later -"When Richard Lion ruled, why, then". The 1st and 3rd here
are given in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website.The first I've seen in a manuscript (V.a. 308) in the Folger
Shakespeare Library, of approximate date 1675 (for that section
of the MS). The opening line is borrowed from a broadside ballad
entered in 1603, ZN2818 in the broadside ballad index on my
website.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> A 17th version commences "When Arthur first in court began", an
> 18th century one- "In days when good King Stephen reigned", andIn an index of 17th century drolleries at <A
href="http://www.adamsmyth.clara.net/"> Drollery Index </A>
There are three 17th century pieces commencing "When Arthur first in
court began". It appears that that in 'Sportive Wit', 1656, concludes
"Because they could not sing", and this is likely our earliest
version. The later two may also be versions, but there's nothing I have
to confirm that.[Drollery Index: www.adamsmyth.clara.net/]Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Hi!        Taking a break from CNN, here is the weekly list.        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2517042622 - Mixed lot of 1930's country/cowboy songbooks &
sheet music, $5.99 (ends Mar-23-03 13:09:58 PST)        3507723890 - OLD SONGS & SINGING GAMES by Chase, 1972 Dover
edition, $3 (ends Mar-23-03 17:01:02 PST)        2517602020 - AMERICAN FOLKSONG by Guthrie, 1947, $225 (ends
Mar-23-03 17:16:55 PST) The price seems more than a bit high!        3507987336 - HULLABALOO AND OTHER SINGING FOLK GAMES by Chase,
1949, $3.50 (ends Mar-24-03 18:45:29 PST)        2516941862 - ROSCO & HOCKWALD'S FAMOUS GEORGIA MINSTREL
SONGSTER, 1912, $9.99 (ends Mar-25-03 05:16:31 PST)        3508239021 - Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman by Doerflinger,
1990 printing, $9.99 (ends Mar-25-03 23:52:08 PST)        2166026363 - ROXBURGHE BALLADS, 1847, $149.50 (ends Mar-26-03
04:49:24 PST)        2517289417 - SONGS AND BALLADS FROM NOVA SCOTIA by Creighton,
1966 Dover printing, $5.50 (ends Mar-26-03 13:31:54 PST)        3508362803 - SINGING FAMILY OF THE CUMBERLANDS by Ritchie, 1955,
$9 (ends Mar-26-03 13:45:59 PST)        3508397729 - Religious Folk-Songs of The Negro as Sung At
Hampton Institute by Dett, 1927, $9.99 (ends Mar-26-03 17:24:35 PST)        3508403639 - The Ballad Book by Leach, $3 (ends Mar-26-03
17:52:00 PST)        3508422717 - Songs of the Cattle Trail and Cow Camp by Lomax,
1979 printing, $1.49 (ends Mar-26-03 19:17:12 PST)        2517597112 - The Lonely Mountaineers - Mountain Ballads and
Cowboy Songs, 1934, $0.99 (ends Mar-27-03 16:55:45 PST)        2517196314 - Garland of English Folk-Songs by Kidson, 1926, 1.99
GBP (ends Mar-29-03 06:15:30 PST)        3508352475 - New Zealand Folksongs by Colquhoun, 1973, $12 AU
(ends Mar-29-03 12:59:48 PST)        3508382327 - Ballads and Folk Songs of the Southwest:More Than
600 Titles, Melodies, and Texts Collected in Oklahoma by Moore, 1966
printing, $9.50 (ends Mar-29-03 15:47:55 PST)        2517417859 - Late Leaves From Lincolnshire by Dawson, Pape &
O'Shaughnessy, 1980, 2.99 GBP (ends Mar-30-03 04:34:44 PST)        3508731035 - THE SONGS OF IRELAND by Hatton & Malloy, 1899,
24.99 GBP (ends Mar-31-03 08:06:52 PST)        3508800865 - Modern Street Ballads by Ashton, 1968 printing of
1888 original, $5 (ends Mar-31-03 14:08:20 PST)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

> Date:    Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:03:36 -0800
> From:    Adam Miller <[unmask]>
> Subject: Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I'd like to learn more about the origins of the English folk song "Three
> Jolly Rogues of Lynne:"
>
> "In good old colony days when we lived under the King
> There was a Miller and a Weaver and a little Tailor
> Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne
> Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne, Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne"
>
I've also seen the first verse as:King Arthur had three sons, that he did.
King Arthur had three sons, that he did.
He had three sons of yore,
And he kicked them out of door
Because they would not sing.A quick google brings this up, from an Arthurian website:*/Arthurian Annals/**© Dan Nastali and Phil Boardman**Sample Section: Arthurian Works 1800-1804*| Annals <index.html> | Previous <late16th.htm> | Next <1805-1810.htm> |*1800**1800.1   "King Arthur Had Three Sons," 19th century. *    The song is sung by a character in Thomas Hardy's 1872 novel, /Under
    the Greenwood Tree/, and was given a choral setting by Rutland
    Boughton (1904). The song has been collected in Buck and Wood, /The
    Oxford Song Book/ (1916) and Sharp's /One Hundred English
    Folk-Songs/ (1916). Variant versions are given in Oliver Huckel's
    /Through England with Tennyson/ (1913) and in the journal
    /Pendragon/ (1978).    A traditional comic song of undetermined origin about a miller, a
    weaver and a tailor, identified as Arthur's sons for no apparent
reason.    *Keywords: */Primary; Arthur; music; folklore/

Folks:As Dolores notes, the ebay offering of Woody Guthrie's _American Folksong_
at $225 is quite expensive, even for a 1947 first edition of this work.
It was reprinted from offset plates in 1961 by Oak Publications (now Music
Sales).  A clean copy of the identical 1961 reprint might go for $20.Ed

There's a note in Digital Tradition at the song "Pretty Peggy"'note: Sent by R.M. Davids of Cross-X Ranch, Woodmere, Florida, to Robert
W. Gordon, this is in the Davids manuscript in the Gordon "Inferno"
collection at the Library of Congress.  Not clear in this version is the
reason the rich merchant cannot spy Pretty Peggy at the seashore.  In a
stanza missing here, the young lady has disguised herself as an old crone.
For a fuller text of this rare ballad, see...
And it breaks off there.'The song (as I'm sure all will now know) is a version of "The Merchant and
the Beggar Wench," (or "The Beggar Wench") Greig~Duncan vol 2, #303 or
Digital Trad "The Merchant's Son" (unnumbered) and in my collection
recorded by Norman Kennedy, Archie Fisher & Davy Stewart but also likely
many, many others.'The Ballad Index entry includes: DESCRIPTION: A merchant's son meets a
beggar girl; they go to bed and, being drunk, sleep soundly. She awakens
first, takes his clothes and gear, and leaves. He awakes to find only the
girl's clothes, which he puts on, swearing never to sleep with a beggar
again'It might add that the often omitted reason he "feels pity for her
distress" is that typically the beggar (ie, Gypsy) weave the usual tale of
her sorrows & travails - that she's not _really_ a hooker.It struck me for several reasons.1) I have _very_ few notes from on the "Inferno" - just those few
scattered in the typescript (not including the above) and would be glad to
know of any availability of more such.2) I haven't come across any other American versions3) In the Scots versions, she's clearly done up as a beggar, dirty & in
rags.  Since she's a thief and all (typical of Gypsy in many songs, of
course) it may be assumed that when she was not working she would clean up
and wear normal clothes.  But, she does make off with the rich merchant's
valuable clothes and all his gear (sometimes £500 {PS}) and the story ends
with him going down the street stamping and swearing, wearing her cast off
old clothes.We always feel in the known versions that the outcome is justified - he is
not a Rich Merchant, he's only a Rich Merchant's Son and a taker-
advantageer-of-distressed-beggar-girls, a roue, playboy and so much a
drunk he doesn't even get laid.  She does steal but what do you expect
from a Gyppo, anyway, and besides, he deserved it.  As it were.In Davids manuscript a new dimension is added - he goes looking for her
but she is now - or is disguised as - a rich lady in fine clothing and he
cannot recognize her.
        Now Peggy is rich and lives by the seashore.
        She swears by her Maker she'll whore it no more,
        Unless some poor sailor is sadly in want
        For the tars of Columbia shall never lack [cunt].She's now a hero and a true American patriot and has (I suppose) invested
his money and done quite well for herself.  Maybe this is Scottish class
consciousness transformed into American enlightened capitalism.
("Enlightened" because even though she's now rich, she won't eschew the
poor, needy sailors in their plight.)Well, I like to sing the song.4) Has the note writer (Gordon?) confused this song with "The Half-Hitch,"
(Child 31_appen) or might there be an additional layer of deceit floating
around here somewhere?-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Abby Sale wrote:
>
>
> The song (as I'm sure all will now know) is a version of "The Merchant and
> the Beggar Wench," (or "The Beggar Wench") Greig~Duncan vol 2, #303 or
> Digital Trad "The Merchant's Son" (unnumbered) and in my collection
> recorded by Norman Kennedy, Archie Fisher & Davy Stewart but also likely
> many, many others.
>
> 'The Ballad Index entry includes: DESCRIPTION: A merchant's son meets a
> beggar girl; they go to bed and, being drunk, sleep soundly. She awakens
> first, takes his clothes and gear, and leaves. He awakes to find only the
> girl's clothes, which he puts on, swearing never to sleep with a beggar
> again'
>"The Merchant's Son and the Beggar Wench of Hull", ZN3016 in the
broadside ballad index on my website. I doubt it was very old when
printed in 'A Collection of Old Ballads', II, p. 228, 1723.Despite some similarities, I wouldn't take "Pretty Peggy" to be a
version of the "The Merchant's Son and the Beggar Wench of Hull".Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Abby Sale wrote:
>
> There's a note in Digital Tradition at the song "Pretty Peggy"
>
> 'note: Sent by R.M. Davids of Cross-X Ranch, Woodmere, Florida, to Robert
> W. Gordon, this is in the Davids manuscript in the Gordon "Inferno"
> collection at the Library of Congress.  Not clear in this version is the
> reason the rich merchant cannot spy Pretty Peggy at the seashore.  In a
> stanza missing here, the young lady has disguised herself as an old crone.
> For a fuller text of this rare ballad, see...
> And it breaks off there.'
>
> The song (as I'm sure all will now know) is a version of "The Merchant and
> the Beggar Wench," (or "The Beggar Wench") Greig~Duncan vol 2, #303 or
> Digital Trad "The Merchant's Son" (unnumbered) and in my collection
> recorded by Norman Kennedy, Archie Fisher & Davy Stewart but also likely
> many, many others.
>
> 'The Ballad Index entry includes: DESCRIPTION: A merchant's son meets a
> beggar girl; they go to bed and, being drunk, sleep soundly. She awakens
> first, takes his clothes and gear, and leaves. He awakes to find only the
> girl's clothes, which he puts on, swearing never to sleep with a beggar
> again'
>
> It might add that the often omitted reason he "feels pity for her
> distress" is that typically the beggar (ie, Gypsy) weave the usual tale of
> her sorrows & travails - that she's not _really_ a hooker.
>
> It struck me for several reasons.
>
> 1) I have _very_ few notes from on the "Inferno" - just those few
> scattered in the typescript (not including the above) and would be glad to
> know of any availability of more such.
>
> 2) I haven't come across any other American versions
>
> 3) In the Scots versions, she's clearly done up as a beggar, dirty & in
> rags.  Since she's a thief and all (typical of Gypsy in many songs, of
> course) it may be assumed that when she was not working she would clean up
> and wear normal clothes.  But, she does make off with the rich merchant's
> valuable clothes and all his gear (sometimes £500 {PS}) and the story ends
> with him going down the street stamping and swearing, wearing her cast off
> old clothes.
>
> We always feel in the known versions that the outcome is justified - he is
> not a Rich Merchant, he's only a Rich Merchant's Son and a taker-
> advantageer-of-distressed-beggar-girls, a roue, playboy and so much a
> drunk he doesn't even get laid.  She does steal but what do you expect
> from a Gyppo, anyway, and besides, he deserved it.  As it were.
>
> In Davids manuscript a new dimension is added - he goes looking for her
> but she is now - or is disguised as - a rich lady in fine clothing and he
> cannot recognize her.
>         Now Peggy is rich and lives by the seashore.
>         She swears by her Maker she'll whore it no more,
>         Unless some poor sailor is sadly in want
>         For the tars of Columbia shall never lack [cunt].
>
> She's now a hero and a true American patriot and has (I suppose) invested
> his money and done quite well for herself.  Maybe this is Scottish class
> consciousness transformed into American enlightened capitalism.
> ("Enlightened" because even though she's now rich, she won't eschew the
> poor, needy sailors in their plight.)
>
> Well, I like to sing the song.
>
> 4) Has the note writer (Gordon?) confused this song with "The Half-Hitch,"
> (Child 31_appen) or might there be an additional layer of deceit floating
> around here somewhere?
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml"Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985The last verse goes:Now lang preston peggy lives nigh and see shor
And she swears by old Ingland shel never sport more
Unles with sum sailer or sum in great nead
Since the whors of old Ingland is all gon indead.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:> "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
> Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
> Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985
>
> The last verse goes:
>
> Now lang preston peggy lives nigh and see shor
> And she swears by old Ingland shel never sport more
> Unles with sum sailer or sum in great nead
> Since the whors of old Ingland is all gon indead.Ah, thank you for that. It renders part of the following redundant, but
anyway:The Digitrad "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Sweet Kitty" (Roud 1349) rather
than "The Merchant's Son and the Beggar Maid of Hull" (Roud 2153; broadside
examples at the Bodleian). There are a number of points of similarity
between the songs, but the outcome is rather different. Cecil Sharp noted
several truncated sets of "Sweet Kitty", including one from the redoubtable
Mrs Overd of Langport, who quoted from it ("Lor, girls, here's my beau come
at last") when they first met. A. L. Lloyd borrowed a couple of lines from
it for the set of "Lovely Joan" in the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs
(but didn't say so); otherwise it doesn't appear to be very well known. I'd
be interested to hear of other examples.The set Sharp got from Captain Lewis at Minehead retains a form of the final
verse:So now pretty Molly she lives on the shore,
She never will go out a-courting any more,
Unless some young sailor should be greatly in want
For the lose of old England shall never want salt juice (?).Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 10/03/03

Bruce Olson wrote:
> "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
> Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
> Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985
>
> The last verse goes:
>
> Now lang preston peggy lives nigh and see shor
> And she swears by old Ingland shel never sport more
> Unles with sum sailer or sum in great nead
> Since the whors of old Ingland is all gon indead.
>A variant version is "Preston Peggy" in Peter Buchan's 'Secret Songs of
Silence' MS, but it doesn't end with the verse quoted above.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>
> > "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
> > Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
> > Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985
> >
> > The last verse goes:
> >
> > Now lang preston peggy lives nigh and see shor
> > And she swears by old Ingland shel never sport more
> > Unles with sum sailer or sum in great nead
> > Since the whors of old Ingland is all gon indead.
> >
>An expurgated broadside version, "Long Waisted Peggy", is given from a
J. Pitts issue in the Madden collection in Holloway and Black's 'Later
English Broadside Ballads', II, #11.There that last verse runs:Pretty Pegg's gone home into merry Yorkshire,
She vows and declares she'll be a loose girl no more
Unless it a soldier who's deeply in want
That the girls of Old England may never grow scant.A two verse fragment (labeled as such) is "Long Preston Peg" near the
end of Robert Bell's 'Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England",
where it is stated that the 'The song is evidently of the date of the
first rebellion, 1715'.My recollection is that there is also a fragment in Harlan's 'Lancashire
Ballads', 1875.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> My recollection is that there is also a fragment in Harlan's 'Lancashire
> Ballads', 1875.
>Sorry, I quoted from a defective memory. That's John Harland, 'Ballads
and Songs of Lancashire', and in addition to the 1875 edition there was
a 3rd in 1882. I have no information on a 2nd edition.D. I. Harker refered to the 1882 edition for information about the song.
Harker also puts the song, which mentions Scots rebels, at 1745 rather
than 1715.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

For those with an interest in recordings from the era in which country
music and folk music had at best a blurred distinction, Yazoo Records
has just launched a block-buster: Kentucky Mountain Music. It's a 7-CD
set, complete with a 32-page 5" x 11" booklet with photos and background
notes.
    It's a spectacular set, much like the products of the Bear Family,
but at a much more attractive price: CAMSCO Music (800/548-FOLK or
[unmask]) is selling the boxed set for $60.Re-mastering is up to
Yazoo's usual very high standard.Track listing:Disc 1
1. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Ladies On The Steamboat
2. BUELL KAZEE,
The Dying Soldier
3. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Little Rabbit/Rabbit Where's Your Mammy
4. SHORTBUCKLE ROARKE & FAMILY,
I Truly Understand You Love Another Man
5. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Eighth Of January
6. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
All Night Long Blues
7. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Shipping Port
8. ROBERT L. DAY,
The Rowan County Crew
9. DOC ROBERTS,
Deer Walk
10. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Let Her Go, I'll Meet Her
11. WALTER FAMILY,
That's My Rabbit, My Dog Caught It
12. MARTIN & ROBERTS,
Lillie Dale
13. RUTHERFORD, MOORE & BURNETT,
Cumberland Gap
14. JAMES HOWARD,
The Old Fish Song
15. FORT THOMAS GROUP,
The Red Hill Special
16. GREEN BAILEY,
If I Die A Railroad Man
17. J. W. DAY,
Grand Hornpipe
18. WALTER WILLIAMS,
East Virginia
19. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Forked Deer
20. PETE STEELE,
Pretty Polly
21. JUSTIS BEGLEY,
Run Banjo
22. KENTUCKY MOUNTAIN CHORUSTERS,
We'll Understand It Better Bye And ByeDisc 2
1. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Curley Headed Woman
2. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Gate To Go Through
3. MARTIN & ROBERTS,
Hot Corn
4. TAYLOR, MOORE & BURNETT,
Grandma's Rag
5. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
I'm As Free Little Birdie As Can Be
6. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Rocky Mountain Goat
7. GREEN BAILEY,
Shut Up in Coal Creek Mine
8. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Sugar In My Coffee (Medley)
9. BUELL KAZEE,
The Butcher's Boy
10. DOC ROBERTS,
New Money
11. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Pearl Bryan
12. KENTUCKY STRING TICKLERS,
Crooked John
13. DAW HENSON,
The Moonshiner
14. J. W. DAY,
Forked Deer
15. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
The Dixie Cowboy
16. WALTER WILLIAMS,
Mississippi Sawyer
17. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Six Months Ain't Long
18. ED MORRISON,
Blackberry Blossom
19. THEOPHILUS HOSKINS,
Ellen Smith
20. HENRY L. BANDY,
Five Up
21. PETE STEELE,
Payday At Coal Creek
22. JUSTIS BEGLEY,
Golden Willow Tree
23. ALICE & MARTHA WILLIAMS & ELIZABETH FLATT,
The Last AppealDisc 3
1. J. W. DAY,
Way Up On Clinch Mountain
2. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Going To Jail
3. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Richmond Blues
4. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Soap In The Washpan
5. McVAY & JOHNSON,
Ain't Going To Lay My Armor Down
6. BLUE RIDGE MOUNTAINEERS,
Old Voile
7. ASA MARTIN,
Gentle Annie
8. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Billy In The Low Ground
9. DAW HENSON,
Lady Margaret And Sweet William
10. DOC ROBERTS,
And The Cat Came Back
11. WALTER WILLIAMS,
Pass Around The Bottle
12. MARION UNDERWOOD,
Coal Creek March
13. PETE STEELE,
Johnny O Johnny
14. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Taylor's Quickstep (Monroe County Quickstep)
15. JUSTIS BEGLEY,
I've Been All Around This World
16. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Jenny Baker
17. CLAY WALTERS,
Come All You Roving Cowboys
18. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Soldier's Joy
19. MAYNARD BRITTON,
I Came To This Country
20. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Medley Of Old Time Dance Tunes Part 1
21. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Rambling Reckless Hobo
22. BILL STEPP & WALTER WILLIAMS,
Wild Horse
23. BOYD ASHER,
Old Christmas
24. TED CHESNUT,
The Rowan County Feud
25. HATTON BROTHERS,
Wish I Had My Time AgainDisc 4
1. BLUE RIDGE MOUNTAINEERS,
Old Flannigan
2. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Willie Moore
3. J. W. DAY,
The Wild Wagoner
4. ASA MARTIN,
My Cabin Home Among The Hills
5. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Bow Legged Irishman
6. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
There's No One Like The Old Folks
7. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Old Blind Dog
8. BUELL KAZEE,
The Sporting Bachelors
9. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Sourwood Mountain
10. JUSTIS BEGLEY,
The Roving Boy
11. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Medley Of Old Time Dance Tunes Part 2
12. PETE STEELE,
Lack Fol Diddle I Day
13. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Lost John
14. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
There's More Pretty Girls Than One
15. WALTER FAMILY,
Shaker Ben
16. REV. SHERWIN SIZEMORE & CHURCH OF THE TEN ELDERS,
Jesus Walking Through The Land
17. GREEN'S STRING BAND,
Pickaway
18. DAW HENSON,
Wallins Creek Girls
19. ED MORRISON,
We'll All Go To Heaven When The Devil Goes Blind
20. WALTER WILLIAMS,
John Hardy
21. HACK'S STRING BAND,
Wink The Other Eye
22. BOYD ASHER,
Hickory Jack
23. J. M. MULLINS,
Working's Too Hard
24. HENRY L. BANDY,
Sail Away Ladies
25. KENTUCKY MOUNTAIN CHORUSTERS,
The Great Reaping DayDisc 5
1. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Buffalo Gals (Medley)
2. HOWARD & PEAK,
Three Black Sheep
3. CLIFFORD GROSS,
Run Them Coons In The Ground
4. GREEN BAILEY,
I Wish I Was A Mole In The Ground
5. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Fire On The Mountain
6. OAKS FAMILY,
Wake Up You Drowsy Sleepers
7. CHARLIE WILSON & HIS HILLBILLIES,
Cuttin At The Point
8. BUELL KAZEE,
The Cowboy Trail
9. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Drink More Cider
10. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Two Faithful Lovers
11. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Maxwell Girl
12. DAW HENSON,
Swafford Branch Stills
13. LONESOME LUKE & HIS FARM BOYS,
Wild Hog In The Woods
14. MARVIN THORNTON & FORT THOMAS GROUP,
The Soldier And The Lady
15. KENTUCKY WOODCHOPPERS,
Pine Tree
16. GREEN MAGGARD,
Lord Daniel
17. KENTUCKY STRING TICKLERS,
Leaving Here Blues
18. JAMES HOWARD,
The Peddler And His Wife
19. DOC ROBERTS,
Waynesburgh
20. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Little Stream Of Whiskey
21. MADISONVILLE STRING BAND,
Next To Your Mother, Who Do You Love
22. PETE STEELE,
Little Birdie
23. THEOPHILUS HOSKINS,
Hog Eyed Man
24. WALTER WILLIAMS,
(fragment)
25. McVAY & JOHNSON,
I'll Be Ready When The Bridegroom ComesDisc 6
1. MANGRUM & SHRIVER,
Bill Cheatam
2. BUELL KAZEE,
Short Life Of Trouble
3. MADISONVILLE STRING BAND,
B Flat Rag
4. GREEN BAILEY,
The Fate Of Ellen Smith
5. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Washington Quadrille
6. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Storms May Rule The Ocean
7. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Gray Eagle
8. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Bile Dem Cabbage Down
9. DOC ROBERTS,
Martha Campbell
10. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
I'll Be With You When The Roses Bloom Again
11. CHARLIE WILSON & HIS HILLBILLIES,
Shelvin Rock
12. BUELL KAZEE,
The Roving Cowboy
13. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Fox Chase
14. LONESOME LUKE & HIS FARM BOYS,
Dogs In The Ashcan
15. GREEN MAGGARD,
Come All Ye Fair And Handsome Girls
16. PETE STEELE,
Rambling Hobo
17. CLIFFORD GROSS,
Leather Breeches
18. BILL BUNDY,
Poison In A Glass Of Wine
19. TOM WEST,
The Valentine
20. WALTER FAMILY,
Flying Cloud Waltz
21. ED MORRISON,
A Western Union Telegram
22. JAMES HOWARD,
My Little Carpenter
23. HATTON BROTHERS,
Hook And Line
24. OAKS FAMILY,
Will It PayDisc 7
1. CLIFFORD GROSS,
Rocky Mountain Goat
2. BUELL KAZEE,
The Orphan Girl
3. DOC ROBERTS TRIO,
Honeymoon Stomp
4. GEORGE ROARK,
I Ain't A Bit Drunk
5. MANGRUM & SHRIVER,
Bacon And Cabbage
6. HOWARD & PEAK,
I Cannot Be Your Sweetheart
7. J. W. DAY,
Little Boy Working On The Road
8. MARTIN & HOBBS,
I Must See My Mothers
9. KENTUCKY WOODCHOPPERS,
New Harmony Waltz
10. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Sugar Hill
11. HACK'S STRING BAND,
Kentucky Plowboy's March
12. OAKS FAMILY,
You'll Miss Me When I'm Gone
13. KENTUCKY STRING TICKLERS,
Tipple Blues
14. TED CHESNUT,
He's Only A Miner Killed In The Ground
15. DOC ROBERTS,
Rye Straw
16. RUTHERFORD, MOORE & BURNETT,
She's A Flower From The Fields Of Alabama
17. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Ching Chow
18. SHORTBUCKLE ROARK & FAMILY,
My Mother's Hands
19. MADISONVILLE STRING BAND,
My Pretty Snow Deer
20. WALTER FAMILY,
Walter Family Waltz
21. HENRY L. BANDY,
Going Across The Sea
22. TAYLOR, MOORE & BURNETT,
Knoxville Rag
23. BUELL KAZEE,
I'm Rolling Along

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:21:17 -0000, Malcolm Douglas wrote:>Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>> "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
>> Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
>> Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985
>>
>
>
>Ah, thank you for that. It renders part of the following redundant, but
>anyway:
>
>The Digitrad "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Sweet Kitty" (Roud 1349) rather
>than "The Merchant's Son and the Beggar Maid of Hull" (Roud 2153; broadside
>examples at the Bodleian). There are a number of points of similarity
>between the songs, but the outcome is rather different.
===>
>A variant version is "Preston Peggy" in Peter Buchan's 'Secret Songs of
>Silence' MS, but it doesn't end with the verse quoted above.Well, I'll be ding-busted! Thank you Bruce & Malcolm.  I'm most impressed.
And confuseder than ever.  The two songs seem so close to me, especially
as in Buchan where it's clearly a 'Preston' song but the outcome is
unclear.  (He doesn't search for her & she does not live on the shore or
help out distressed sailors; although she may now be rich.)To me the core element is the trick but the Inferno version is obviously
(now) Preston Peggy/Sweet Kitty.  Makes me wish there were a wider
diversity of versions of "Merchant's Son."  I can't help thinking these
songs cross somewhere.I also wonder where Mr Davids (as per Gordon) got his very complete
version.  I notice it was sent to Gordon by JC Colcord...Joanna, I assume,
and that she would have been collecting sailor-connected material.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Abby Sale wrote:
>
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:21:17 -0000, Malcolm Douglas wrote:
>> I also wonder where Mr Davids (as per Gordon) got his very complete
> version.  I notice it was sent to Gordon by JC Colcord...Joanna, I assume,
> and that she would have been collecting sailor-connected material.
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtmlThe tales are similar, but neither is unique.After assignation man is left with only woman's clothes in which
to return home: 1-"Merchant's son and beggar wench"; 2-"The Shirt
and Apron" (Laws K42, Greenleaf and Mansfield, 'Ballads and Seas
Songs of Newfoundland', #112. Collected from Abraham White, Sandy
Cove, 1929)After assignation man's gold watch and money/purse are stolen:
1-"Long Preston Peggy"/"Pretty Peggy"; 2-"Gold Watch" (Laws K41,
Greenleaf and Mansfield, 'Ballads and Sea Songs of Newfoundland',
#52. Collected from Will White, Sandy Cove, 1929)Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:22:08 -0500, Bruce Olson wrote:>The tales are similar, but neither is unique.
>
>After assignation man is left with only woman's clothes in which
>to return home: 1-"Merchant's son and beggar wench"; 2-"The Shirt
>and Apron" (Laws K42, Greenleaf and Mansfield, 'Ballads and Seas
>Songs of Newfoundland', #112. Collected from Abraham White, Sandy
>Cove, 1929)
>
>After assignation man's gold watch and money/purse are stolen:
>1-"Long Preston Peggy"/"Pretty Peggy"; 2-"Gold Watch" (Laws K41,
>Greenleaf and Mansfield, 'Ballads and Sea Songs of Newfoundland',
>#52. Collected from Will White, Sandy Cove, 1929)What does it say about "The Tailor's Breeches" (another favorite of mine)
in which there is no disguise or assignation.  There is drunken dance
during which the (unsympathetic) man's gold watch and money (and clothing)
are stolen.  Further, man is left with only woman's clothes in which
to return home.Are any tunes given for "Long Preston Peggy"/"Pretty Peggy"/"Sweet Kitty?"-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Hi!        Another week - another list! There is lots of variety as usual!        SONGSTERS        3600543698 - Merchant's Gargling Oil Songster, 1887, $7.99 (ends
Mar-29-03 18:59:03 PST) There is another copy in auction 3601415377
$9.99 (ends Apr-02-03 11:01:26 PST)        2166904550 - Balm of Gillead Songster, 1877, $10 (ends Mar-31-03
13:01:47 PST)        3509599100 - WHERE DID YOU GET THAT GIRL? SONGSTER, 1905, $4.99
(ends Mar-31-03 20:30:20 PST)        3509757506 - FAIRBURNS EVERLASTING SONGSTER, $14.99 (ends
Apr-01-03 15:57:41 PST)        2167196595 - Lookout Mountain Songster No. 1, $9.99 (ends
Apr-02-03 09:41:10 PST)        2518966854 - 4 songsters, Johnny Paterson's Great London Circus
Songster, Bring Down the Curtain Songster, Johnny Smiths Variety Songster
and Stick to your Mother Tom Songster, 1873-1885, $9 (ends Apr-02-03
11:37:10 PST)        3510223073 - Star Spangled Banner Songster, 1890, $9.99 (ends
Apr-06-03 18:59:06 PST)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2518144146 - Cousin Lee Album of Hill Country Ballads & Old Time
Songs, 1936, $7.50 (ends Mar-30-03 07:44:25 PST)        2518145473 - Budge & Fudge song folio, 1945?, $2.50 (ends
Mar-30-03 07:51:25 PST) This seller has a number of similar folios which
all end this week. If this is an area of interest, check "Seller's Other
Items"        3509286547 - Ballads of the Great West by Fife, 1970. $5 (ends
Mar-30-03 15:00:19 PST)        2518547325 - THE SHANTY BOOK by Evans, 1921, $4.95 (ends
Mar-31-03 15:59:59 PST)        3509585067 - Yiddish Folksongs With Melodies by Cahan, 1957, $24
(ends Mar-31-03 19:24:30 PST)        3509602308 - The Wearing of the Green, The Lore, Literature,
Legend and Balladry of the Irish in Australia by Wannan, 1965, $4.95 AU
(ends Mar-31-03 20:56:57 PST)        3508932483 - Mellows by Kennedy, 1925, $19.99 (ends Apr-01-03
09:14:26 PST)        3509768034 - 3 volumes (Border Ballads by Tomson, Jacobite Songs
& Ballads by MacQuoid, & Contemporary Scottish Verse by Douglas), 1888,
$49.99 (ends Apr-01-03 17:01:32 PST)        2518697968 - Ballad Book by Niles, 1961, $14.50 (ends Apr-01-03
09:53:43 PST)        3509826173 - MUSIC OF THE PEOPLE: A STUDY OF POPULAR MUSIC IN
GREAT BRITAIN by Lee, 1970, $5.99 (ends Apr-01-03 22:04:39 PST)        3509890850 - Scottish Ballads by Lyle, $3.99 (ends Apr-02-03
09:43:48 PST)        3509905741 - Land Where the Blues Began by Lomax, book & CD, $10
w/reserve (ends Apr-02-03 10:47:34 PST)        2518249164 - West Virginia Centennial Book of Songs 1863 - 1963,
$9.99 (ends Apr-02-03 13:38:21 PST)        2519046815 - MOUNTIAN SONGS AND PRAIRIE BALLADS NO. 335, 1935,
$4 (ends Apr-02-03 17:49:08 PST)        3509370635 - English & Scottish Popular Ballads by Child, 1965
Dover edition, $399.50 (ends Apr-02-03 19:54:15 PST)        2519082300 - Silver Chord, 1862, $9.95 (ends Apr-02-03 20:36:39
PST)        2518433060 - Blue Grass Roy - the Hamlins Korn Kracker Book no.
4, 1936, $5.99 (ends Apr-03-03 07:40:37 PST)        3510249810 - Hampton Series Book II Negro Folk-Songs, 1918, $20
(ends Apr-03-03 19:45:33 PST)        2519070082 - Scottish Minstrelsy by Scott, 1839 printing, $69
(ends Apr-05-03 19:30:55 PST)        2519296996 - Sing Care Away by Sharp/Karpeles, 1970? printing,
$6.99 (ends Apr-06-03 18:44:35 PDT)        3510270765 - English Folk-Songs from the Southern Appalachians
by Sharp, 2 volumes in one, 1960 printing, $1 w/reserve (ends Apr-06-03
23:02:12 PDT)        2517621271 - Ozark Folksongs by Randolph/Cohen, 1982, $8.99
(ends Apr-06-03 21:30:00 PDT)        2519182129 - Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman by Doerflinger,
1972 edition, $8.99 (ends Apr-06-03 11:11:20 PDT) A more recent
paperback printing which was on last week's list did not sell. It has
been relisted in auction 3510013023.)        2517763153 - Ballads and Songs From Ohio by Eddy, 1964 edition,
$8.99 (ends Apr-06-03 21:30:00 PDT)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Burk Thumoth's _Twelve Scotch and Twelve Irish Airs for the German
Flute, with Variations_ (1745) contains a a variation set on a tune
he calls "Tho' for Seven Long Years".  It's actually "Bannocks of
Bear Meal", but isn't the set in the _Caledonian Pocket Companion_,
despite Thumoth's title page implying that Oswald had a hand in the
production.Is there a known text for "Bannocks of Bear Meal" with the "seven
long years" phrase in it somewhere?Anyone got any idea why G.F. Graham thought the tune was Irish?=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

Jack Campin wrote:
>
> Burk Thumoth's _Twelve Scotch and Twelve Irish Airs for the German
> Flute, with Variations_ (1745) contains a a variation set on a tune
> he calls "Tho' for Seven Long Years".  It's actually "Bannocks of
> Bear Meal", but isn't the set in the _Caledonian Pocket Companion_,
> despite Thumoth's title page implying that Oswald had a hand in the
> production.
>
> Is there a known text for "Bannocks of Bear Meal" with the "seven
> long years" phrase in it somewhere?
>
> Anyone got any idea why G.F. Graham thought the tune was Irish?
>
> =================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================It's the opening line of a song by Allan Ramsay. I don't have TTM to
give original reference, but it's in the 1725 and 1733 editions of
'Orpheus Caledonius' and SMM #507 (see also the Scots tune index on my
website.)G. F. Graham guessed Irish origin in 'Songs of Scotland', II, p. 115
for "Bannocks of Barley-Meal" (see Kinnegad Slashers in my Irish tune
index), but "Bannocks of Bear-Meal" ('Songs of Scotland', III, p. 122)
isn't the same tune.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Jack Campin wrote:
> >
> >..............
> > Is there a known text for "Bannocks of Bear Meal" with the "seven
> > long years" phrase in it somewhere?
> >>
> It's the opening line of a song by Allan Ramsay. I don't have TTM to
> give original reference, but it's in the 1725 and 1733 editions of
> 'Orpheus Caledonius' and SMM #507 (see also the Scots tune index on my
> website.)
>Whoops, I forgot to give the title of Ramsay's song, "Johnny and Nelly"Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

                                Happy Birthday to you,
                                Happy Birthday to you,
                              Happy Birthday Sam Hinton,
                        Happy Birthday to youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.A good year, Sam,
AbbyBallad-L member Adam Miller has written a three hundred page biography of
Sam.  I think that's two pages per year.  Pretty small print, too.
Adam Miller, P.O. Box 620754, Woodside, CA  94062
(650) 494-1941 - [unmask] - http://www.lauralind.com-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dear Readers,Speaking of Sam Hinton, one of the songs we learned from Sam is "Jolly Old
Roger:"   He¹s Jolly Old Roger, the tin-maker man
   He lived in a garret in New Amster-dam
   And showered down blessings like rain in the spring
   Oh, maidens and matrons, of him I will sing.   There never was yet, a boy or a man
   Who better could mend a tin kettle or can
   Or bucket or dipper or skimmer or pan
   Than Jolly Old Roger, the tin-maker man
   Chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang,
   Tee-rattle tee, rattle tee, rattle tee, bang.Is this an American song?  Does anyone know anything about its origins?Thanks!Adam Miller
Laura Lind Music
P.O. Box 620754
Woodside, CA  94062
(650)  494-1941
[unmask]
http://www.lauralind.com

I am sending this to four lists I subscribe to.I will be signing off these lists under my present address, hopefully
resubscribing under a new one when I get back from holiday; this
address has now become completely unusable due to spam (about 300 spams
a day, requiring a filter update before every single download) and will
be inactivated in a few days as I change my mail delivery mechanism.
I will then have no way to know what has been sent to the address I'm
writing from now, and I'm not sure if you'll even get a bounce message
if you use it.You can get to me off-list by emailing j-c at this site; that address
will persist indefinitely (the worst I've had sent to it is a few
viruses from friends with regrettable tastes in software).  I won't
be using it for any mailing list, though - it seems that no list is
proof against bozos leaking bits of it out to the web where it can be
spidered for "From:" lines.  (Obscure as it is, the woodenflute list
has been hit that way recently; my "woodenflute" userid, invalidated
a year ago and unused since, has started getting spams over the last
month).Other addresses I use are unaffected by this.

From: Forum for ballad scholars [[unmask]] on behalf of Adam
Miller [[unmask]]
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 2:55 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Jolly Old Roger>Dear Readers,
>
>Speaking of Sam Hinton, one of the songs we learned from Sam is "Jolly Old
>Roger:"
>
>   He¹s Jolly Old Roger, the tin-maker man
>   He lived in a garret in New Amster-dam
>   And showered down blessings like rain in the spring
>   Oh, maidens and matrons, of him I will sing.
     ^
>   There never was yet, a boy or a man
>   Who better could mend a tin kettle or can
>   Or bucket or dipper or skimmer or pan
>   Than Jolly Old Roger, the tin-maker man
>   Chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang,
>   Tee-rattle tee, rattle tee, rattle tee, bang.
>
>Is this an American song?  Does anyone know anything about its origins?
>
>Thanks!I don't recall having this in any book but I did tape Ed McCurdy singing
it at The Second Fret in Philly about 1960.  (I didn't really remember the
text or title but that "chee-wang" bit struck a chord (!) and I found the
tape right away.)Re v.1, l.4, McCurdy sings 'On' instead of 'Oh' which suggests a
suggestive aspect to itHe goes on after the above verses:Now jolly old Roger had two sets of eyes
And his spectacles were uncommon in size;
His nose, like a strawberry, racy and red,
A snuffer by day and a trumpet in bed.Now jolly old Roger could not live all way(s)
An [?] death cut his life chord one day
Down in the cold ground they trampled him in
Poor jolly old Roger, the mender of tin.        Chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang,
        Terattle, terattle, terattle, terbang.That [?] is driving me nuts.  The sound is 'ipersent.'  I looked up
'premature' in my Roget but couldn't find anything similar.McCurdy just gives "from New England" for background and the song, of
course, says "New Amster-dam" which ain't in New England.He sings it in his _Pills To Purge Melancholy_ voice, as it were.Those tradesman/double entendre songs seem pretty rare in America
(notwithstanding "My Husband's a Mason") so this might actually be a
valued song.  What say?-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Nancy-Jean Seigel wrote:
>
> This song appears in two field recordings in the Flanders Ballad
> Collection. The music and text appear in Helen Hartness Flanders'
> book, A Garland of Green Mountain Song published in 1934. The first
> verse and the chorus were apparently used as a knee trotting song.
>
> One of the recorded singers was my great-grandfather.  It was also
> known to my grandfather, Senator Ralph Flanders of Vermont.
>
> Nancy-Jean Ballard Seigel
>
>                             JOLLY OLD ROGER
>
> "Twas Jolly Old Roger, the tinmaker's man,
> Who lived in a garret in New Amsterdam,
> Who showered down blessings like rain in the spring
> On maidens and matrons.  Oh, him I would sing!
>
> Chorus:
> There never was yet a boy or a man
> Who better could mend a kettle or pan,
> Or bucket, or skimmer, or dipper, or can
> Than Jolly Old Roger, the tinmaker's man.
> Chu Whang, Chu Whang, Chu Whang, Chu Wang,
> Te rattlety, rattlety, rattlety, BANG!            (Sing "BANG" very
> loud!!!)
>
> His pipe ws a meerschaum of pottery clay.
> He smoked it  and colored it many a day,
> Tho' short, black, and stumpy, his teeth held it tight
> And he puffed up his business in cans by its light.
>
>    Chorus
>
> (Two lines forgotten)
> He had but one leg and he wore but one shoe,
> And he stumped round his shop on a stiff timber toe.
>
>    Chorus
>
> But Jolly Old Roger had two pair of eyes.
> His glasses called "specs: were uncommon in size.
> His nose like a strawberry, racy and red,
> Was a "snuffer" by day and a trumpet in bed.
>
>    Chorus
>
> But Jolly Old Roger could not live alway,
> The "nippers" of death cut his life threads one day,
> And down in the cold ground they tumbled him in,
> Poor Jolly Old Roger, the mender of tin!
>
>    ChorusWords and music of 1867 are in the Levy sheet music collection, Box 024,
Item 089.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

The tune for "Jolly Old Roger" which appears in the Levy Collection of Sheet Music is not the same as the one sung in Vermont by Albert Wellington Flanders for the Flanders Ballad Collection. The sheet music version doesn't give any instruction for the explosive volume on the word, "BANG!!!"  That's half the fun of the song.Albert Wellington Flanders was born in Canada, then lived in Rhode Island and Massachusetts before settling at an advanced age in Springfield, Vermont.  The song may have traveled around as much as he did! BANG!Nancy-Jean Ballard SeigelIn a message dated 4/1/2003 1:33:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, [unmask] writes:> It also appears in Jean Thomas's "The Singin' Gatherin" -  She notes that it was sung for her by Blanche Preston Jones in 1927.
>
> Jane Keefer
> Folk Music Index
> www.ibiblio.org/folkindex
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nancy-Jean Seigel
> To: [unmask]
> Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 2:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Jolly Old Roger
>
>
> This song appears in two field recordings in the Flanders Ballad Collection. The music and text appear in Helen Hartness Flanders' book, A Garland of Green Mountain Song published in 1934. The first verse and the chorus were apparently used as a knee trotting song.
>
> One of the recorded singers was my great-grandfather.  It was also known to my grandfather, Senator Ralph Flanders of Vermont.
>
> Nancy-Jean Ballard Seigel
>
>
>
> JOLLY OLD ROGER
>
>
> "Twas Jolly Old Roger, the tinmaker's man,
> Who lived in a garret in New Amsterdam,
> Who showered down blessings like rain in the spring
> On maidens and matrons.  Oh, him I would sing!
>
> Chorus:
> There never was yet a boy or a man
> Who better could mend a kettle or pan,
> Or bucket, or skimmer, or dipper, or can
> Than Jolly Old Roger, the tinmaker's man.
> Chu Whang, Chu Whang, Chu Whang, Chu Wang,
> Te rattlety, rattlety, rattlety, BANG!            (Sing
> "BANG" very loud!!!)
>
> His pipe ws a meerschaum of pottery clay.
> He smoked it  and colored it many a day,
> Tho' short, black, and stumpy, his teeth held it tight
> And he puffed up his business in cans by its light.
>
>    Chorus
>
> (Two lines forgotten)
> He had but one leg and he wore but one shoe,
> And he stumped round his shop on a stiff timber toe.
>
>    Chorus
>
> But Jolly Old Roger had two pair of eyes.
> His glasses called "specs: were uncommon in size.
> His nose like a strawberry, racy and red,
> Was a "snuffer" by day and a trumpet in bed.
>
>    Chorus
>
> But Jolly Old Roger could not live alway,
> The "nippers" of death cut his life threads one day,
> And down in the cold ground they tumbled him in,
> Poor Jolly Old Roger, the mender of tin!
>
>    Chorus

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
Abby Sale, writes:> Re v.1, l.4, McCurdy sings 'On' instead of 'Oh' which suggests a
> suggestive aspect to itSomehow, a suggestive aspect suggested itself to me without that
additional help; but no doubt I am suggestible.  %^)
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  The DEA is our Taliban.  :||

Your advice, Sirs and Madams:The Ballad Index gives:British Man-of-War, The
DESCRIPTION: The singer hears a sailor telling his love that he must leave
her; he must go into battle. She begs him not to go. He says that he might
win glory. He has fought before; he will fight again. He tears his
handkerchief in two and gives her half as a token
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1847 (Journal of William Histed of the Cortes)
KEYWORDS: war separation farewell brokentoken
FOUND IN: US(MA, So)
REFERENCES (5 citations):
FSCatskills 13, "The Yankee Man-of-War" (1 text, 1 tune)
Scott-BoA, pp. 226-227, "The Yankee Man o' War" (1 text, 1 tune)
etc.I don't seem to have any book with "The Yankee Man-of-War" but I do have a
song with that title on Folkways FH 5275, 'Seaport 76' (sea songs of the
Revolution).  The notes are by John F. Miller.This song has no love, female or token.  It deals with John Paul Jones on
the "Ranger" in battle with the the English "Drake" off Ireland in 1778.
He gives that this song is often and "mistakenly combined with" "The
'Stately American'" (about a different incident on the "Ranger.")  No
other real background is given.Are there two "The Yankee Man-of-Wars?"-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On 4/4/03, Abby Sale wrote:>Your advice, Sirs and Madams:
>
>The Ballad Index gives:
>
>British Man-of-War, The
>DESCRIPTION: The singer hears a sailor telling his love that he must leave
>her; he must go into battle. She begs him not to go. He says that he might
>win glory. He has fought before; he will fight again. He tears his
>handkerchief in two and gives her half as a token
>AUTHOR: unknown
>EARLIEST DATE: 1847 (Journal of William Histed of the Cortes)
>KEYWORDS: war separation farewell brokentoken
>FOUND IN: US(MA, So)
>REFERENCES (5 citations):
>FSCatskills 13, "The Yankee Man-of-War" (1 text, 1 tune)
>Scott-BoA, pp. 226-227, "The Yankee Man o' War" (1 text, 1 tune)
>etc.
>
>I don't seem to have any book with "The Yankee Man-of-War" but I do have a
>song with that title on Folkways FH 5275, 'Seaport 76' (sea songs of the
>Revolution).  The notes are by John F. Miller.
>
>This song has no love, female or token.  It deals with John Paul Jones on
>the "Ranger" in battle with the the English "Drake" off Ireland in 1778.
>He gives that this song is often and "mistakenly combined with" "The
>'Stately American'" (about a different incident on the "Ranger.")  No
>other real background is given.
>
>Are there two "The Yankee Man-of-Wars?"Probably more than that. :-)I can't tell, from the above, if your song is Laws A3 or Laws A4,
both of which are about John Paul Jones, but it's probably one or
the other. Note the alternate title of A3.Here are the Ballad Index entries for those two, as they will appear
in the next release (out in the next few weeks):NAME: Paul Jones, the Privateer [Laws A3]
DESCRIPTION: John Paul Jones's American ship outruns a British man-of-war.
   Most of the ballad is devoted to describing the way the ship sails.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1909
KEYWORDS: sea navy ship
FOUND IN: US(MA,MW,NE), Canada(Mar)
HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
1777 - The "Ranger" is commissioned
1778 - The "Ranger" outruns the British ship
REFERENCES (6 citations):
Laws A3, "Paul Jones, the Privateer"
Doerflinger, pp. 131-133, "The Stately Southerner" (1 text, 1 tune)
Creighton/Senior, pp. 267-268, "The Stately Southerner" (3 texts, 2 tunes)
Rickaby 44, "Paul Jones, the Privateer" (2 texts, 1 tune)
Darling-NAS, pp. 157-158, "The Stately Southerner" (1 text)
DT 360, STATESTH
ALTERNATE TITLES:
The Yankee Man-of-War
NOTES: Although much is made of Jones's escape in this song, it really was
   not exceptional. The _Ranger_ was a small commerce-raider, designed to be
   fast; heavy men-of-war were much slower, as they had to carry much more
   weight.
For a biography of Jones (who is the "stately southerner" of Doerflinger's
   ballad; the title does not refer to the ship, as the _Ranger_ sailed out
   of New England), see the entry on "Paul Jones's Victory" [Laws A4].  -
   RBW
File: LA03NAME: Paul Jones's Victory [Laws A4]
DESCRIPTION: John Paul Jones's [Bonhomme] Richard encounters two British
   ships. Despite being outgunned, Jones manages to capture the larger of
   the British ships.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1906 (Brown)
KEYWORDS: navy war ship battle
FOUND IN: US(MA,SE) Britain(England) Canada(Mar)
HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
Sept 23, 1779 - Battle between the Bonhomme Richard (40 guns) and the
   British Serapis (44 guns) and Scarborough (20 guns)
REFERENCES (10 citations):
Laws A4, "Paul Jones's Victory"
BrownII 220, "Paul Jones" (2 texts)
Creighton/Senior, pp. 225-226, "Paul Jones" (1 text, 1 tune)
Leach, p. 713, "Paul Jones' (1 text)
Friedman, p. 290, "Paul Jones" (1 text)
FSCatskills 8, "Paul Jones" (1 text, 1 tune)
Warner 153, "Paul Jones" (1 text, 1 tune)
Scott-BoA, pp. 81-83, "Paul Jones's Victory (Poor Richard and the Serapis
   and Alliance" (1 text, 1 tune)
Logan, pp. 32-38, "Paul Jones (Paul Jones the Pirate)" (1 text)
DT 359, PAULJONE PAULJON2
NOTES: John Paul Jones (1747-1792) was born in Sweden with the name John
   Paul. He joined the British Navy at a young age, then fled to the
   colonies in the 1770s rather than face prosecution for brutality.
It might be noted that Jones commanded a squadron of four ships, 124 guns,
   at the time of this battle (a flotilla financed by the French), although
   only the _Bonhomme Richard_ was completely engaged in the fight.
Jones won the battle by using his marines: He lashed his ship to the
   _Serapis_, and -- having made his famous remark "I have just begun to
   fight" -- continued the struggle until the British gave up. The _Richard_
   had, however, been reduced to a sinking condition, and only vigorous work
   at the pumps kept her afloat long enough to take the _Serapis_. - RBW
File: LA04
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Hi Abby!You can find a Philadelphia broadside of "The Yankee Man of War" at the
Bodleian Library site...
http://erl.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Harding+B+31(141)&
id=11327.gif&seq=1&size=0
That is a Mexican War song.Certainly not of interest to ballad scholars (except you), the Johnson Girls
recorded the Bodleian text on their CD.All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:10 PM
Subject: The Yankee Man-of-War> Your advice, Sirs and Madams:
>
> The Ballad Index gives:
>
> British Man-of-War, The
> DESCRIPTION: The singer hears a sailor telling his love that he must leave
> her; he must go into battle. She begs him not to go. He says that he might
> win glory. He has fought before; he will fight again. He tears his
> handkerchief in two and gives her half as a token
> AUTHOR: unknown
> EARLIEST DATE: 1847 (Journal of William Histed of the Cortes)
> KEYWORDS: war separation farewell brokentoken
> FOUND IN: US(MA, So)
> REFERENCES (5 citations):
> FSCatskills 13, "The Yankee Man-of-War" (1 text, 1 tune)
> Scott-BoA, pp. 226-227, "The Yankee Man o' War" (1 text, 1 tune)
> etc.
>
> I don't seem to have any book with "The Yankee Man-of-War" but I do have a
> song with that title on Folkways FH 5275, 'Seaport 76' (sea songs of the
> Revolution).  The notes are by John F. Miller.
>
> This song has no love, female or token.  It deals with John Paul Jones on
> the "Ranger" in battle with the the English "Drake" off Ireland in 1778.
> He gives that this song is often and "mistakenly combined with" "The
> 'Stately American'" (about a different incident on the "Ranger.")  No
> other real background is given.
>
> Are there two "The Yankee Man-of-Wars?"
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Hi again Abby!Both the FSCatskills and Scott-BoA texts deal with the Civil War and can be
regarded as pretty much the same ballad updated to the next conflict (the
ballad goes back to Britain and the Opium Wars as far as I was able to
trace... see
http://erl.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Firth+c.26(66)&id=
23912.gif&seq=1&size=0 for example).  The Scott-BoA text is credited to H.M.
Belden's Missouri Folk-Lore Society collection, a truly great grouping of
songs if you don't have it.All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:10 PM
Subject: The Yankee Man-of-War> Your advice, Sirs and Madams:
>
> The Ballad Index gives:
>
> British Man-of-War, The
> DESCRIPTION: The singer hears a sailor telling his love that he must leave
> her; he must go into battle. She begs him not to go. He says that he might
> win glory. He has fought before; he will fight again. He tears his
> handkerchief in two and gives her half as a token
> AUTHOR: unknown
> EARLIEST DATE: 1847 (Journal of William Histed of the Cortes)
> KEYWORDS: war separation farewell brokentoken
> FOUND IN: US(MA, So)
> REFERENCES (5 citations):
> FSCatskills 13, "The Yankee Man-of-War" (1 text, 1 tune)
> Scott-BoA, pp. 226-227, "The Yankee Man o' War" (1 text, 1 tune)
> etc.
>
> I don't seem to have any book with "The Yankee Man-of-War" but I do have a
> song with that title on Folkways FH 5275, 'Seaport 76' (sea songs of the
> Revolution).  The notes are by John F. Miller.
>
> This song has no love, female or token.  It deals with John Paul Jones on
> the "Ranger" in battle with the the English "Drake" off Ireland in 1778.
> He gives that this song is often and "mistakenly combined with" "The
> 'Stately American'" (about a different incident on the "Ranger.")  No
> other real background is given.
>
> Are there two "The Yankee Man-of-Wars?"
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

No, I do have it in _The Oxford Book of Sea Songs_, (Palmer.)
This is the John Paul Jones song - no love interest.  He doesn't give a
source except "British seamen."Are there two "The Yankee Man-of-Wars?"-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

The one in the Oxford Book is a version of the song usually known as
The Stately Southerner. Laws A3. Paul Jones outruns the British
fleet. His source is Luce's Naval Songs. Which, since a copy
addressed to me is somewhere between California and New York, I would
hope to be able to refer to very soon.The "other" one, in the Ballad Index reference given by Bob Waltz
earlier, is derived from The British Man Of War. In both British and
American versions, a sailor has a conversation with his Susan.
There's a nice American version sung by George Edwards in the
Catskill collection; there's a nice English version (with the
"British" title of course) in the Hammond & Gardiner collection,
published somewhere in the Marrowbones books as I recall.So the answer to your question would be Yes.John Roberts.>No, I do have it in _The Oxford Book of Sea Songs_, (Palmer.)
>This is the John Paul Jones song - no love interest.  He doesn't give a
>source except "British seamen."
>
>Are there two "The Yankee Man-of-Wars?"
>
>
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                        Boycott South Carolina!
>        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

JPJ songs are going to get me confused in themselves.  There are many of
them.  "Hurrah for JPJ" is Dutch and not at issue.Paul Jones's Victory [Laws A4] deals with "Bonhomme Richard" beating
"Serapis" on Sept 23, 1779 (and then sinking the next day, BTW.)
This is completely separate and has nothing to do with the "Yankee
Man-of-War" problem.John F. Miller on my record (I don't know who he is and he doesn't give
his sources) insists that the JPJ-on-the-"Ranger" song is two separate
songs (often confounded.)In the one, which he calls "The Stately American," (from the first line)
the "Ranger" barely outruns a British fleet off Ireland and escapes.
John Roberts says this is usually known as "Stately Southerner" and I have
a note to that effect, myself.In the other, which Miller calls "The Yankee Man-of-War," "Ranger"
captures English sloop-of-war, "Drake."  This would take place April 24th,
1778 off Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland.Unhappily, as John goed on:
>The one in the Oxford Book is a version of the song usually known as
>The Stately Southerner. Laws A3. Paul Jones outruns the British
>fleet.
---JPJ just runs away here, there is no engagement.  The unhappy part is
that this one is also called "The Yankee Man-of-War."
Palmer (usually meticulously trustworthy) notes that none of the events in
this song occur on the "Ranger" "which sometimes gives its name to this
song."  He says the events regard JPJ's prior command, the "Providence."My other notes, however are that this song does detail the "Ranger." The
"Providence" was never commanded by JPJ but was a separate ship with its
own powerful exploits a year later and figures in the song, "Yankee
Privateer."  (Although neither ship was really a privateer - both were
commissioned.)Re the combined song, in  _Minstrelsy of Maine_; Fannie Eckstorm; 1927,
collected from Captain Archie Spurling, 1925.  Evidently, she says, either
a made-up ship name & naval incident crept into a song about Jones & the
"Ranger" or else Jones' name crept into song on some other event.Oi!Left intact for reference:On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 20:14:08 -0600, Robert B. Waltz wrote:>On 4/4/03, Abby Sale wrote:
>
>>Your advice, Sirs and Madams:
>>
>>The Ballad Index gives:
>>
>>British Man-of-War, The
>>DESCRIPTION: The singer hears a sailor telling his love that he must leave
>>I don't seem to have any book with "The Yankee Man-of-War" but I do have a
>>song with that title on Folkways FH 5275, 'Seaport 76' (sea songs of the
>>Revolution).  The notes are by John F. Miller.
>>
>>This song has no love, female or token.  It deals with John Paul Jones on
>>the "Ranger" in battle with the the English "Drake" off Ireland in 1778.
>>He gives that this song is often and "mistakenly combined with" "The
>>'Stately American'" (about a different incident on the "Ranger.")  No
>>other real background is given.
>>
>>Are there two "The Yankee Man-of-Wars?"
>
>Probably more than that. :-)
>
>I can't tell, from the above, if your song is Laws A3 or Laws A4,
>both of which are about John Paul Jones, but it's probably one or
>the other. Note the alternate title of A3.
>
>Here are the Ballad Index entries for those two, as they will appear
>in the next release (out in the next few weeks):
>
>NAME: Paul Jones, the Privateer [Laws A3]
>DESCRIPTION: John Paul Jones's American ship outruns a British man-of-war.
>   Most of the ballad is devoted to describing the way the ship sails.
>AUTHOR: unknown
>EARLIEST DATE: 1909
>KEYWORDS: sea navy ship
>FOUND IN: US(MA,MW,NE), Canada(Mar)
>HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
>1777 - The "Ranger" is commissioned
>1778 - The "Ranger" outruns the British ship
>REFERENCES (6 citations):
>Laws A3, "Paul Jones, the Privateer"
>Doerflinger, pp. 131-133, "The Stately Southerner" (1 text, 1 tune)
>Creighton/Senior, pp. 267-268, "The Stately Southerner" (3 texts, 2 tunes)
>Rickaby 44, "Paul Jones, the Privateer" (2 texts, 1 tune)
>Darling-NAS, pp. 157-158, "The Stately Southerner" (1 text)
>DT 360, STATESTH
>ALTERNATE TITLES:
>The Yankee Man-of-War
>NOTES: Although much is made of Jones's escape in this song, it really was
>   not exceptional. The _Ranger_ was a small commerce-raider, designed to be
>   fast; heavy men-of-war were much slower, as they had to carry much more
>   weight.
>For a biography of Jones (who is the "stately southerner" of Doerflinger's
>   ballad; the title does not refer to the ship, as the _Ranger_ sailed out
>   of New England), see the entry on "Paul Jones's Victory" [Laws A4].  -
>   RBW
>File: LA03
>
>
>NAME: Paul Jones's Victory [Laws A4]
>DESCRIPTION: John Paul Jones's [Bonhomme] Richard encounters two British
>   ships. Despite being outgunned, Jones manages to capture the larger of
>   the British ships.
>AUTHOR: unknown
>EARLIEST DATE: 1906 (Brown)
>KEYWORDS: navy war ship battle
>FOUND IN: US(MA,SE) Britain(England) Canada(Mar)
>HISTORICAL REFERENCES:
>Sept 23, 1779 - Battle between the Bonhomme Richard (40 guns) and the
>   British Serapis (44 guns) and Scarborough (20 guns)
>REFERENCES (10 citations):
>Laws A4, "Paul Jones's Victory"
>BrownII 220, "Paul Jones" (2 texts)
>Creighton/Senior, pp. 225-226, "Paul Jones" (1 text, 1 tune)
>Leach, p. 713, "Paul Jones' (1 text)
>Friedman, p. 290, "Paul Jones" (1 text)
>FSCatskills 8, "Paul Jones" (1 text, 1 tune)
>Warner 153, "Paul Jones" (1 text, 1 tune)
>Scott-BoA, pp. 81-83, "Paul Jones's Victory (Poor Richard and the Serapis
>   and Alliance" (1 text, 1 tune)
>Logan, pp. 32-38, "Paul Jones (Paul Jones the Pirate)" (1 text)
>DT 359, PAULJONE PAULJON2
>NOTES: John Paul Jones (1747-1792) was born in Sweden with the name John
>   Paul. He joined the British Navy at a young age, then fled to the
>   colonies in the 1770s rather than face prosecution for brutality.
>It might be noted that Jones commanded a squadron of four ships, 124 guns,
>   at the time of this battle (a flotilla financed by the French), although
>   only the _Bonhomme Richard_ was completely engaged in the fight.
>Jones won the battle by using his marines: He lashed his ship to the
>   _Serapis_, and -- having made his famous remark "I have just begun to
>   fight" -- continued the struggle until the British gave up. The _Richard_
>   had, however, been reduced to a sinking condition, and only vigorous work
>   at the pumps kept her afloat long enough to take the _Serapis_. - RBW
>File: LA04-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

In-Reply-To: <000f01c2fb1a$25918350$a3213841@D8GN9G21>
X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.93/32.576 English (American)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bitOn Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:22:01 -0500, folkmusic wrote:>You can find a Philadelphia broadside of "The Yankee Man of War" at the
>Bodleian Library site...
>http://erl.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=Harding+B+31(141)&
>id=11327.gif&seq=1&size=0
>That is a Mexican War song.Ah! So it is. Good.  That settles that.
Thanks, DanThe other one you found, the British Man of War, at the Bodleian is the
same as the Purslow text that got me started here.
 http://www.folkinfo.org/topic.asp?topic_id=410&pagenum=1&reverse=False&X=7-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

John Millar (note sp.), is the man who had "H.M.S. Rose" built in
1970, and he ran it for a while as a floating/sailing museum, first
out of Newport and then, as I recall, out of Connecticut. He moved
down to Colonial Williamsburg quite a few years ago where I believe
he lives the life of an independent scholar. (Independent of needing
a job <g>). The Rose itself was more recently sold to the film
company producing the first movie from the Patrick O'Brian books, The
Far Side Of The World," which you should be able to see in November,
if our hero Russell Crowe cooperates.John Roberts.>John F. Miller on my record (I don't know who he is and he doesn't give
>his sources) insists that the JPJ-on-the-"Ranger" song is two separate
>songs (often confounded.)
>
>In the one, which he calls "The Stately American," (from the first line)
>the "Ranger" barely outruns a British fleet off Ireland and escapes.
>John Roberts says this is usually known as "Stately Southerner" and I have
>a note to that effect, myself.
>

Hi!        Here sit among the cherry blossoms with another list of books on
Ebay. :-)        SONGSTERS        2168435866 - Bassett's Native Herb Songster, 1882, $4 (ends
Apr-12-03 20:01:46 PDT)        3601933853 - 4 page songster for the 1912 Progressive
Convention, $24.99 (ends Apr-07-03 18:08:52 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3510955682 - HE SONGS AND BALLADS OF SIR WALTER SCOTT, 1875,
$9.99 (ends Apr-06-03 20:23:58 PDT)        2167953218 - Two folios of Australian bush and folk music, $3
(ends Apr-06-03 21:07:18 PDT)        3510971895 - Traditional Ballads of Virginia, 1929, $5 (ends
Apr-06-03 21:24:04 PDT)        3511029095 - The Ballads of Scotland by Aytoun, 2 volumes,
1857, $1000 (ends Apr-07-03 08:10:34 PDT)        2520176075 - Songs of Newfoundland, 1955, $4.99 (ends
Apr-07-0313:24:20 PDT)        3511170116 - Sea Songs and Shanties by Whall, 1948 printing,
$26.95 (ends Apr-07-03 19:49:11 PDT)        3511215960 - MARYLAND FOLK LEGENDS AND FOLK SONGS by Carey,
1971, $7 (ends Apr-08-03 01:33:20 PDT)        3511376722 - American Sea Songs & Chanteys by Shay, 1948, $39.99
(ends Apr-08-03 18:22:17 PDT)        2520542377 - Ballads & Songs of the Shanty-Boy by Rickaby, 1926,
$7.99 (ends Apr-08-03 21:20:05 PDT)        3511492818 - MINSTRELSY of the SCOTTISH BORDER by Scott, 3
volumes, 1821 edition, 35 GBP (ends Apr-09-03 09:24:02 PDT)        2520671717 - Favorite Songs of Famous Hill Billies, 1935, $3.50
(ends Apr-09-03 12:37:21 PDT)        2520028669 - The Overlander Song Book by Edwards, 1982 printing,
$6.99 (ends Apr-09-03 21:02:34 PDT)        2520096265 - Folk Songs of England Book IV by Sharp, 3 GBP (ends
Apr-10-03 07:22:11 PDT)        2520233410 - The Book of Navy Songs, 1926, $34.95 (ends
Apr-10-03 18:26:09 PDT)        2168215995 - Religious Folk-Songs of the Negro, 1924 reprint,
$24.99 (ends Apr-11-03 15:10:17 PDT) also 2168214775 - 1927 edition, $75        3507702189 - Air Force Airs by Wallrich, 1957, $7.77 (ends
Apr-11-03 15:58:00 PDT)        3511933987 - Bushranger Ballads by Scott, 1980, $15 AU (ends
Apr-14-03 01:23:27 PDT)        2521137946 - Negro Folk Music by Courlander, 1966, 4.99 GBP
(ends Apr-14-03 06:43:32 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        2519970719 - Virginia Traditions-Ballads From British Tradition'
LP on BRI Records 002, $10.50 (ends Apr-06-03 17:42:05 PDT)        2520453018 - 1853 sheet music for The Other Side of Jordan,
$19.25 (ends Apr-08-03 15:01:56 PDT)        3511510835 - Irish broadside ballad, A New Song Called Emegrants
 Farewell To Donegall, 1700's, $49.99 w/reserve (ends Apr-09-03 10:45:53
PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Folks:I apologize for accidentally sending to the list the ebay findings Dolores
has turned up this week.  I intended to point our that there was a scarce
first edition of A.K. Davis' _Traditional Ballads of Virginia_ for posted
for a low, low $5.00.  It should be noted that the book was reprinted in
1969.Ed

And there are a number of these for sale on ebay at an enormous range of
prices, for anyone just wanting the songs, words and music some good ex
library ones especially,Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 10:58 AM
Subject: My Bad> Folks:
>
> I apologize for accidentally sending to the list the ebay findings Dolores
> has turned up this week.  I intended to point our that there was a scarce
> first edition of A.K. Davis' _Traditional Ballads of Virginia_ for posted
> for a low, low $5.00.  It should be noted that the book was reprinted in
> 1969.
>
> Ed
>
>

On Sat, 5 Apr 2003 17:50:20 -0500, Abby Sale wrote:>Palmer (usually meticulously trustworthy) notes that none of the events in
>this song occur on the "Ranger" "which sometimes gives its name to this
>song."  He says the events regard JPJ's prior command, the "Providence."
>
>My other notes, however are that this song does detail the "Ranger." The
>"Providence" was never commanded by JPJ but was a separate ship with its
>own powerful exploits a year later and figures in the song, "Yankee
>Privateer."  (Although neither ship was really a privateer - both were
>commissioned.)Sorry.  The more I read, the confuseder I get.
US Navy history site http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq58-1.htm gives:
"In February 1776 John Paul Jones participated in the attack on Nassau,
New Providence Island. Jones was appointed to command Providence on 10 May
1776; his commission as Captain in the Continental Navy was dated 8 August
1776. The 12- gun sloop departed for the Delaware Capes on 21 August.
Within a week she had captured the whaling brigantine Britannia. Near
Bermuda, she fell in with a convoy escorted by the 28-gun frigate Solebay.
In a thrilling chase lasting ten hours, Jones saved Providence from the
larger warship by an act of superior seamanship. By 22 September he had
captured three British merchant vessels. While anchored he burnt an
English fishing schooner, sank another, and made prize of a third. Jones
would later declare that his best crew had been on board Providence; he
had received sound financial rewards from the prizes, making this venture
the most enjoyable of his career. "Although the song of his fleeing is common, naval records don't make a big
deal of it.  Millar says it was on the 'Ranger.'  So maybe on both - no
reason not, considering the job he was performing of strike & run.On the other hand, the events of 'Ranger's' taking the 'Serapis' are very
well known but the song seems very rare.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi!        Take a break from IRS forms and bid on a few books! Here is the
weekly list!        SONGSTERS        2521519280 - Skialong Songster, 1900?, $9.99 (ends Apr-12-03
19:59:40 PDT)        2168435866 - Bassett's Native Herb Songster, 1882, $4 (ends
Apr-12-03 20:01:46 PDT)        2521845843 - Bert Williams Songster, 1904, $5.50 (ends Apr-13-03
22:26:23 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3512306561 - Scottish Ballads edited and introduced by Emily
Lyle, 1997, $7.95 (ends Apr-12-03 19:54:21 PDT)        3512308579 - The Ballad Tree by Wills, 1950, $13 (ends Apr-12-03
20:01:50 PDT)        3512308576 - The Ballad Book of John Jacob Niles, 1961, $9.50
(ends Apr-12-03 20:01:49 PDT)        3512339936 - Shanties from the Seven Seas by Hugill, 1990 Mystic
Seaport edition, $10 (ends Apr-13-03 00:43:28 PDT)        3512232389 - John Clare and the Folk Tradition by Deacon, 25 GBP
(ends Apr-15-03 13:12:06 PDT)        3511944942 - FOLKSONGS OF THE MARITIMES by Pottie & Ellis, 1992,
$18.50 (ends Apr-13-03 20:30:00 PDT)        3512634262 - Songs and Sayings of an Ulster Childhood by Kane
(edited by Fowke), 1983, $9.99 (ends Apr-13-03 20:14:32 PDT)        2522010570 - Cowboy Ballads, 1941, $5.95 (ends Apr-14-03
15:11:09 PDT)        2721821434 - The Skiers'Song Book by Kemp, 1950, $19.99 (ends
Apr-15-03 10:41:11 PDT)        2169506005 - A Bibliography of North American Folklore and
Folksong by Haywood, 2 volumes, 1961, $24.99 (ends Apr-15-03 19:42:22
PDT)        3513023682 - THE AMERICAN SONGBAG by Sandburg, 1927, $9.95 (ends
Apr-15-03 21:15:00 PDT)        3512791283 - ONE HUNDRED ENGLISH FOLK SONGS by Sharp, 1975
Dover edition, 2 GBP (ends Apr-17-03 14:05:29 PDT)        2522808821 - The Leadbelly songbook, 1962, $15 (ends Apr-17-03
14:54:12 PDT)        2522830219 - Old Fashion Hymns and Mountian Ballads by Sizemore,
1933, $1 (ends Apr-17-03 16:50:25 PDT)        3512705574 - The Euing Collection of English Broadside Ballads
In the Library of the University of Glasgow by Holloway, 1971, $209.50
(ends Apr-17-03 19:30:00 PDT)        3512951373 - Cambrian Minstrelsie, volume 5, 1893, 3.50 GBP
(ends Apr-18-03 08:49:03 PDT)        3512952084 - same as above except volume 1        2169373027 - Book of Irish Ballads, 1970s, 2 GBP (ends Apr-18-03
10:19:01 PDT)        3512982248 - The Critics & the Ballad by Leach & Coffin, 1961,
$9.99 (ends Apr-18-03 10:43:06 PDT)        2522253741 - OLD AUSTRALIAN BUSH BALLADS by Palmer, $10 AU (ends
Apr-18-03 13:27:52 PDT)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

People curious about The Ballad Tree might be interested in the following
brief entry composed for a fairly recent encyclopedia:Wells, Evelyn Kendrick
1891-1979
Educator, collector, author.  The Ballad Tree, an outgrowth of Evelyn
Wells's popular ballad class at Wellesley College, was the first
comprehensive ballad study to enliven accurate library scholarship with
astute field experience.  Wells had supplemented her years of collecting
while on the staff of Pine Mountain Settlement School (intermittently from
1915-1930) with fieldwork in the Northeast and in Britain.  An anthology,
history, and critique, the volume includes ballads well beyond the Child
canon, highlights the American tradition, analyses aesthetic issues,
provides detailed data about singers, treats even-handedly the
creation/memorization issue, and devotes an entire chapter to context.  Its
portrait of Cecil Sharp as field collector is based on first hand observation.
         Like Bronson, Wells considered tune integral to the ballad.  The
Ballad Tree features carefully annotated tunes.  And a 1958 review article,
in the Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, hails Hendren's
analysis of the interdependence of text and tune in Study of Ballad Rhythm
while lamenting  the inaccuracy of Randolph's transcriptions and the
separation of texts and tunes in the Brown collection.
         At Pine Mountain Wells discovered the singing Ritchie family,
later bringing two of the daughters to study at Wellesley.  Like Sharp and
Campbell, she was interested in social and recreational uses of folk dance
and folk song, and taught them at Pine Mountain, during her tenure at
Wellesley (1935-1956), and at the Country Dance Society camp at Pinewoods,
Massachusetts.  In 1961 she received the gold medal of the English Folk
Dance and Song Society.William Bernard McCarthy
_____________________________________________________________________________________
The Ballad Tree is a comprehensive study of the ballad in the whole
English-speaking world, but may be the first "handbook" to give the
American ballad its due. Though perhaps a bit romantic, it includes good
Appalachian ballads and a vivid picture of a ballad singer's context in
Eastern Kentucky in c. 1920.-- Bill

Balladeers --I guess you could say that I have good news and bad news.If you've been nosing around the Ballad Index site in recent weeks,
you perhaps noticed that it was behaving a bit strangely. That's
the bad news. The good news is, it's because Ballad Index 1.6 has
been released.Unfortunately, the online index is acting strange. There are
several hundred new songs in the Index, and these won't show
up in web searches. (We're working on it.) But all the old
songs have been updated. And, if you choose to download the
Index, all *those* versions have been updated.The following is from the "What's New" file:The following books were added to the Index in version 1.6:H. M. Belden, Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri
  Folk-Lore Society
Henry M. Belden and Arthur Palmer Hudson, Eds, The Frank
  C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore, Volume Two:
  Folk Ballads from North Carolina
Henry M. Belden and Arthur Palmer Hudson, Eds, The Frank
  C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore, Volume Three:
  Folk Songs from North Carolina
Helen Creighton and Doreen H. Senior, Traditional Songs of
  Nova Scotia
Arthur Palmer Hudson, Folksongs of Mississippi and their Background
Franz Rickaby, Ballads and Songs of the Shanty-Boy
Jean Thomas, Ballad-Makin' in the Mountains of KentuckyIn addition, the quality of references for several books indexed
early on (Randolph, Eddy, Sandburg, etc.) has been upgraded.Cross-references to Bronson have been introduced for all Child ballads.We have added in excess of 1000 78 recordings.These volumes pushed us to the 100 book mark. The Index now has 5516
songs, under 9452 titles; there are 15,258 bibliographic references
and 3109 recording references.Becky Nankivell indexed Creighton and Senior; I did the rest of
the books. Paul Stamler did almost all of the recordings.100 books may not sound like much, but note that Child counts
as one book, as does Bronson, as does Randolph. A book can be
a pretty serious undertaking. :-) I believe the number of
texts cited is now in excess of 20,000.And, of course, work is ongoing.
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Bob:Impressive statistics, these.EdOn Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> Balladeers --
>
> I guess you could say that I have good news and bad news.
>
> If you've been nosing around the Ballad Index site in recent weeks,
> you perhaps noticed that it was behaving a bit strangely. That's
> the bad news. The good news is, it's because Ballad Index 1.6 has
> been released.
>
> Unfortunately, the online index is acting strange. There are
> several hundred new songs in the Index, and these won't show
> up in web searches. (We're working on it.) But all the old
> songs have been updated. And, if you choose to download the
> Index, all *those* versions have been updated.
>
> The following is from the "What's New" file:
>
> The following books were added to the Index in version 1.6:
>
> H. M. Belden, Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri
>   Folk-Lore Society
> Henry M. Belden and Arthur Palmer Hudson, Eds, The Frank
>   C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore, Volume Two:
>   Folk Ballads from North Carolina
> Henry M. Belden and Arthur Palmer Hudson, Eds, The Frank
>   C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore, Volume Three:
>   Folk Songs from North Carolina
> Helen Creighton and Doreen H. Senior, Traditional Songs of
>   Nova Scotia
> Arthur Palmer Hudson, Folksongs of Mississippi and their Background
> Franz Rickaby, Ballads and Songs of the Shanty-Boy
> Jean Thomas, Ballad-Makin' in the Mountains of Kentucky
>
> In addition, the quality of references for several books indexed
> early on (Randolph, Eddy, Sandburg, etc.) has been upgraded.
>
> Cross-references to Bronson have been introduced for all Child ballads.
>
> We have added in excess of 1000 78 recordings.
>
> These volumes pushed us to the 100 book mark. The Index now has 5516
> songs, under 9452 titles; there are 15,258 bibliographic references
> and 3109 recording references.
>
> Becky Nankivell indexed Creighton and Senior; I did the rest of
> the books. Paul Stamler did almost all of the recordings.
>
> 100 books may not sound like much, but note that Child counts
> as one book, as does Bronson, as does Randolph. A book can be
> a pretty serious undertaking. :-) I believe the number of
> texts cited is now in excess of 20,000.
>
> And, of course, work is ongoing.
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 1078 Colne Street
> Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
> 651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>
>

Balladeers --Just so you'll know, we (well, the staff at Fresno) now has the
new version of the Ballad Index working. Any searches you undertake
will now find what they "should" find.Whether that is what you want to find is, of course, another
question. :-)
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Hi folks:I'm planning a radio show of crooked tunes and songs (extra beats, missing
measures, weird time signatures, etc.). Any and all suggestions invited --
please let me know an artist name at least, and if it's on a CD or LP, album
title and/or label. Thanks in advance! (Apologies for cross-posting.)Peace,
Paul"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

"Airs tordus/ Crooked Tunes" by Les Tetes de Violon, from Trente Sous
Zero/Thirty Below (no catalog number), a full cd of 14 crooked
traditional Quebecois tunes, performed by Guy Bouchard and a passle of
Californians: Kevin Carr, Judy Lipnick, Barbara Mendelsohn, Greg Raskin,
Laurie Rivin, and Laura Sadowsky.~ Becky Nankivell> Date:    Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:35:44 -0500
> From:    Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> Subject: Fw: Crooked tunes
>
> Hi folks:
>
> I'm planning a radio show of crooked tunes and songs (extra beats, missing
> measures, weird time signatures, etc.). Any and all suggestions invited --
> please let me know an artist name at least, and if it's on a CD or LP, album
> title and/or label. Thanks in advance! (Apologies for cross-posting.)
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
> "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
> the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:35:44 -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:>I'm planning a radio show of crooked tunes and songs (extra beats, missing
>measures, weird time signatures, etc.). Any and all suggestions invited --
>please let me know an artist name at least, and if it's on a CD or LP, album
>title and/or label. Thanks in advance! (Apologies for cross-posting.)
>
I can think of a few minor ones:Byker Hill (per Lloyd/Carthy) is often shown as 9/8 but is actually a bar
of 2,2,2,3 eighth notes.  Very unusual in English music, I think.Queen Eleanor's Confession (156) ver C is a good version and often sung.
Verses are quatrains but v. 14 is defective at 6 lines (assumedly missing
the first two lines of an additional verse.  Thing is, it's sung as
printed.  (Eg MacColl, _Blood & Roses_ v3)Peter Bellamy has a few very noticeable scansion breaks (effectively
handled, no surprise).  In "Ghost Song" (Cruel Ship's Carpenter/Gosport
Tragedy/Pretty Polly), last verse and also last verse on "Fox Jumps Over
the Parson's Gate" (both on LP _Fox Jumps Over the Parson's Gate_)"Johnson Girls" as sung by Boarding Party (I've never had what I am
totally sure would be the great pleasure of hearing the Johnson Girls sing
it) is a "backwards" chanty.  The work is done in the pause rather than on
the downstroke.  I sang this one time at our local group and one feller
(who is a fine musician but knows little of sea songs or any trad
material) immediately noticed the song was backwards.  As it were, the
downbeat is silent and syncopated.  Or something like that.BTW, Paul, I miss hearing your webcast.  Any chance it will be
reinstituted?
>
>"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
>the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret MeadDepends which institution they were committed to...-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

There ae a bunch of these, but I'm not sure who recorded them. One of the subtlest
is MacColl's "Love Song for Modern Times (First Time Ever)" Which most folks don't
realize is crooked. Flash Company comes to mind (Dick Holdstock recording?) as do
many by Moondog.Becky Nankivell wrote:> "Airs tordus/ Crooked Tunes" by Les Tetes de Violon, from Trente Sous
> Zero/Thirty Below (no catalog number), a full cd of 14 crooked
> traditional Quebecois tunes, performed by Guy Bouchard and a passle of
> Californians: Kevin Carr, Judy Lipnick, Barbara Mendelsohn, Greg Raskin,
> Laurie Rivin, and Laura Sadowsky.
>
> ~ Becky Nankivell
>
> > Date:    Wed, 16 Apr 2003 12:35:44 -0500
> > From:    Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> > Subject: Fw: Crooked tunes
> >
> > Hi folks:
> >
> > I'm planning a radio show of crooked tunes and songs (extra beats, missing
> > measures, weird time signatures, etc.). Any and all suggestions invited --
> > please let me know an artist name at least, and if it's on a CD or LP, album
> > title and/or label. Thanks in advance! (Apologies for cross-posting.)
> >
> > Peace,
> > Paul
> >
> > "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
> > the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

On Tue, 15 Apr 2003 07:51:34 -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:>The good news is, it's because Ballad Index 1.6 has
>been released.Excellent.  Got it.  Well done.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

<<BTW, Paul, I miss hearing your webcast.  Any chance it will be
reinstituted?>>It is back, at:http://www.kdhx.orgin RealAudio (you may need to download an updated version of their software;
there's a link on the site.)Thanks for the tunes!Peace,
Paul

One of my favorite's is  the Fuzzy Mountain String Band version of
Santa Anna'a Retreat.  It has an extra half measure in the second
part as does the French Canadian, Louis' first tune, played by Louis
Beaudoin on  County 725.    I don't know if you can count Cherokee
Shuffle as crooked ( A-part 8 measures, B-part 10 measures)Jane Keefer----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 10:35 AM
Subject: Fw: Crooked tunes> Hi folks:
>
> I'm planning a radio show of crooked tunes and songs (extra beats,
missing
> measures, weird time signatures, etc.). Any and all suggestions
invited --
> please let me know an artist name at least, and if it's on a CD or
LP, album
> title and/or label. Thanks in advance! (Apologies for
cross-posting.)
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
> "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens
can change
> the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
Mead
>

My own favourite - it took me a long time to figure out what was occurring
- is the version of Off She Goes [aka Humpty Dumpty] played on the 'Morris'
album The Complete Dancing Master - not to hand so I cannot quote details.
I've a printed version from a book of Cornish music which is the usual 2/4
[or 2/2?] tune. But on this album the the second strain is
3/4, 2/4, 4/4,
3/4, 2/4, 4/4.
Well, that's how I would describe them, by I've been rapped over the
knuckles by folk musicologists before now for my simplistic accounts of
musical events. Bet I sing better than they do!EwanEwan McVicar
84 High Street
Linlithgow
EH49 7AQ
01506 847935

----- Original Message -----
From: Jane Keefer <[unmask]><<One of my favorite's is  the Fuzzy Mountain String Band version of
Santa Anna'a Retreat.>>*That's* where I picked it up! I've been playing that extra half-measure for
some 20 years and never remembered where I got it. I thought it came from
Larry Sugarman, but either it did and he got it from the FMSB or I got it
straight from them, since I have the recording.<<  It has an extra half measure in the second
part as does the French Canadian, Louis' first tune, played by Louis
Beaudoin on  County 725. >>Is that the medley that begins with "Viva La Canadienne"?Peace,
Paul

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003 12:10:40 -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:Oh, and about a hundred Irish songs speak a large number of syllables into
the final line or the verse or of the song.  It's so common a gimmick I'm
not sure it's even unusual.egBoth the Irish & shorter (American?) versions of The Good Ship Calabar
(Cruise of the Calabar)Blackbird Upside Down (or the Blackbird)
There's a downloadable piece at A Prairie Home Companion
SATURDAY, OCTOBER 11, 1997 -
http://phc.mpr.org/performances/19971011/index.shtml
and/or 971011_rosaleenblack_14.ram
re The Blackbird: (An Lundus???)
as sung by Irish singer ROSALEEN LINEHAN, who explains:This is a very beautiful song which I learned at my mother's knee
It was tattooed on her thigh, actually.She learned from an old lady in Ireland.  Tremendously fit person...
had all her faculties...103 years of age and she didn't need glasses
She use to drink it straight from the bottleBut I have a text from the fine singing of Johnny Butler many years ago.I know I've heard many others but caint recollect just now.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 03:13:17AM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jane Keefer <[unmask]>
>
> <<One of my favorite's is  the Fuzzy Mountain String Band version of
> Santa Anna'a Retreat.>>
>
> <<  It has an extra half measure in the second
> part as does the French Canadian, Louis' first tune, played by Louis
> Beaudoin on  County 725. >>> Is that the medley that begins with "Viva La Canadienne"?
        Some folks around Berkeley play that as an optional third
        part to "La Bastringue."  I'd been wondering what to call
        it;  thanks! -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360
*** FRIENDS: If your Reply message is Rejected by my spam-
fighting ISP, please try sending it to: [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>> Is that the medley that begins with "Viva La Canadienne"?
        Some folks around Berkeley play that as an optional third
        part to "La Bastringue."  I'd been wondering what to call
        it;  thanks! -- Aloha, LaniI'm pretty sure the practice of adding that to "La Bastringue" came from the
Beaudoin record. At least one St. Louis player does it too, with no
knowledge that it's a separate tune.Peace,
Paul

Oops - my apologies.   The performer is Louis Riendeau of the
Reindeau Family -  It is not part of a medley on that recording.  The
Fiddler's Fakebook has a transcription and the Group, Ebeneezer with
Allan Block plays it also on their Biograph recording.  In checking
this over I realized I mistakenly indexed Louis Beaudoin's version of
the reel  I have come to call "You Married My Daughter but Yet You
Didn't"  as Louis' First Tune.   I have also heard  this former title
with that characteristic French Candian extra half measure.Jane----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 1:13 AM
Subject: Re: Crooked tunes>
> Is that the medley that begins with "Viva La Canadienne"?
>
> Peace,
> Paul

On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 12:26:03PM -0700, Jane Keefer wrote:
> Oops - my apologies.   The performer is Louis Riendeau of the
> Reindeau Family -  It is not part of a medley on that recording.  The
> Fiddler's Fakebook has a transcription and the Group, Ebeneezer with
> Allan Block plays it also on their Biograph recording.  In checking
> this over I realized I mistakenly indexed Louis Beaudoin's version of
> the reel  I have come to call "You Married My Daughter but Yet You
> Didn't"  as Louis' First Tune.   I have also heard  this former title
> with that characteristic French Candian extra half measure.        I was about to ask how you associated "Louis' First Tune" with
        Louis Beaudoin (as, in fact, I had at first), but first wanted
        to look at the record to check.  (We always added that 'Louis,'
        whoever the real composer was, wrote the tune before he learned
        to count!  Nothing like fabrication to spice up tune tales.)
                I'll have to figure out how to write the tune in ABC, and
        post that.  Later (but don't hold your breath!).  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360
*** FRIENDS: If your Reply message is Rejected by my spam-
fighting ISP, please try sending it to: [unmask]

Hi!        Here I am again! Here is another diverse list of Ebay finds.        SONGSTERS        3219414255 - Old Lookout Mountain # One songster, $9.95 (ends
Apr-21-03 22:15:20 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2523505062 - Folk Songs Of Canada by Fowke & Johnston, 1985
printing, $12 (ends Apr-20-03 16:50:30 PDT) also 3514457021 - 1966
printing, $5.99 (ends Apr-21-03 17:16:41)        3513578897 - THE BALLAND MATRIX: PERSONALITY, MILIEU, AND THE
ORAL TRADITION by McCarthy, 1990, $5 (ends Apr-20-03 18:50:44 PDT)        3514252189 - Songs of the Irish Republic, 1958, $6.99 (ends
Apr-20-03 19:02:59 PDT)        3513595466 - Folk Songs of North America by Lomax, 1960, $14.99
(ends Apr-20-03 19:56:47 PDT)        2523559395 - Ireland Sings by Behan, 1965, $3.25 (ends Apr-20-03
19:57:06 PDT)        3514338050 - The Folk Song Abecedary by Leisy, 1966, $19.99
(ends Apr-21-03 07:42:02 PDT)        3514474981 - Reliques of Ancient English Poetry by Percy, $3.25
(ends Apr-21-03 18:41:01 PDT) also 3514641415 - 1875, 5 GBP (ends
Apr-26-03 15:45:00 PDT)        2170451479 - A Texas-Mexican Cancionero: Folksongs of the Lower
Border by Paderes, 1995 edition, $5 (ends Apr-21-03 19:50:07 PDT)        3514498939 - The Book Of Scottish Ballads by Whitelaw, 1855, $15
(ends Apr-21-03 20:51:39 PDT)        3513794416 - FOLKLORE IN THE ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH BALLADS by
Wimberly, 1965 Dover edition, $9.95 (ends Apr-21-03 20:53:53 PDT)        2523840111 - Chansons Canadiennes - French Canadian Folk Songs
by Barbeau, 2 volumes, 1929, $14.99 (ends Apr-22-03 01:38:29 PDT)        2523254022 - FOLKSONGS AND THEIR MAKERS by Glassie, Ives &
Szwed, 1970, $9.95 (ends Apr-22-03 16:46:51 PDT)        3604399118 - 100 WLS BARN DANCE FAVORITES, 1935, $9.41 (ends
Apr-23-03 18:30:00 PDT)        3514897464 - I HAVE A NEWS ~ Rhymes from the Caribbean by
Jekyll/Philip, $2 (ends Apr-23-03 19:44:00 PDT)        2524280499 - 80 Appalachian Folk Songs collected by Cecil Sharp
& Maud Karpeles, 1983, $9.99 (ends Apr-23-03 20:26:59 PDT)        2524290099 - The Cumberland Ridgerunners. Mountain Ballads
and Home Songs, 1936, $5 w/reserve (ends Apr-23-03 21:33:51 PDT)        3515028304 - Cowboy Songs and other Frontier Ballads by Lomax,
1918, $5.95 (ends Apr-24-03 12:39:37 PDT)        3515116012 - Essays in the Study of Folk-Songs by
Martinengo-Cesaresco, 1886, $35 (ends Apr-24-03 19:03:15 PDT)        3515140762 - A LIFE IN FOLKLORE by Creighton, 1975, $5.99 (ends
Apr-24-03 20:57:44 PDT)        2524734888 - CARSON J. ROBISON?S FOLIO OF HILL COUNTRY SONGS AND
BALLADS, 1931, $4.99 w/reserve (ends Apr-25-03 18:08:58 PDT)        3515365585 - MINSTRELSY:ANCIENT & MODERN by Motherwell, 1827,
$75 (ends Apr-26-03 02:46:30 PDT)        3514986082 - The Illustrated Border Ballads by Marsden, 0.50 GBP
(ends Apr-27-03 10:06:11 PDT)        3515140229 - A History Of Music In San Francisco - Music Of The
Gold Rush Era by Lengyal, 1939, WPA, $9.99 (ends Apr-27-03 20:53:12 PDT)        3515140242 - A History Of Music In San Francisco - A San
Francisco Songster 1849 - 1939 by Lengyal, 1939, WPA, $9.99 (ends
Apr-27-03 20:53:17 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        3320837602 - Tam Reid King of the Bothy Ballad Singers, video,
1977, 2.50 GBP (ends Apr-20-03 02:47:08 PDT)        2523577342 - Been a Long Time Traveling by Addie Graham, LP,
1978, $6.50 (ends Apr-20-03 21:12:45 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dear Colleagues,I'm delighted to be able to inform you that the online catalogue of
the James Madison Carpenter Collection (mainly containing
traditional song and drama) is now available.  The URL is as follows:http://www.hrionline.ac.uk/carpenter/Please feel free to publicise this resource as you see fit.Apologies for cross-posting.Good wishes,JuliaJulia C. Bishop (Dr)
National Centre for English Cultural Tradition
University of Sheffield
Sheffield  S10 2TN
U.K.Tel: (Direct Line) 0114 222 6295
(NATCECT Office) 0114 222 6296
EMAIL: [unmask]

Dear all,Does anyone have a copy of Mayhew close at hand? I urgently need to
check whether the following quote is Vol. III 158-9, as I have it cited."Concerning street musicians, they are of multifarious classes. As a
general rule, they may almost be divided into the tolerable and the
intolerable performers, some of them trusting to their skill in music
for the reward of their exertions, others only making a noise, so that
wyhatever monety they obtain is given them merely as an inducement for
them to depart. The well-known engraving by Hogarth, of "the enraged
musician," is an illustration of the persecutions inflicted in olden
times by this class of street performers; and in the illustrations by
modern caricaturists we have had numerous proofs, that up to the present
time the nuisance has not abated."Whoever you are, thanks!Andy

Andy,I have the Dover edition.  (I once saw the original edition in pristine condition some up for auction. Sigh.)  Your quote looks right except that my edition says "for the reward for their exertions" rather than "for the reward of their exertions."  Also the word "noise" is in italics in the text of my edition.Regards.Lew BeckerLewis Becker
Professor of Law
Villanova Law School
Villanova PA 19085
(610) 519-7074
email: [unmask]
>>> [unmask] 04/23/03 15:48 PM >>>
Dear all,Does anyone have a copy of Mayhew close at hand? I urgently need to
check whether the following quote is Vol. III 158-9, as I have it cited."Concerning street musicians, they are of multifarious classes. As a
general rule, they may almost be divided into the tolerable and the
intolerable performers, some of them trusting to their skill in music
for the reward of their exertions, others only making a noise, so that
wyhatever monety they obtain is given them merely as an inducement for
them to depart. The well-known engraving by Hogarth, of "the enraged
musician," is an illustration of the persecutions inflicted in olden
times by this class of street performers; and in the illustrations by
modern caricaturists we have had numerous proofs, that up to the present
time the nuisance has not abated."Whoever you are, thanks!Andy

Dear Abby and Adam,I always thought that "Jolly Old Roger"  had started as a Pennsylvania
"Dutch"  song -- probably because I THINK I found it in a book of music
devoted to that genre.  My older sister's husband,  artist Jon Gnagy, was
raised near Hutchinson, Kansas in a German-speaking family of Mennonites--
very closely related to the Pennsylvania Dutch-- and he knew of this song ,
having heard it -- in German -- in his childhood .Abby, you quoted Ed McCurdy singing what was, in my version, the final verse:    <"Now jolly old Roger could not live all way(s)
    <An [?] death cut his life chord one day.
    <Down in the cold ground they trampled him in
    <Poor jolly old Roger, the mender of tin."and said that that [?] had always bothered the heck out of you.  I did that
verse as:    <But Jolly Old Roger could not live alway;
    <"The tin-snips of death cut his life-thread one day.
    <And down in the churchyard they trampled him in,
    <Poor Jolly Old Roger, the mender of tin.">I have no idea what Ed may have sung at the beginning of the second line.
ElIla Louise Linscott, in her "Folk Songs of Old New England," (N.Y.:
MacMillan, 1939, p. 224) says
"The NIPPERS" of death cut his life thread one day."  Thw ve rsion she givbes
is vefry cloe to the one I do. She says it was about the itinerant German
tinsmiths who travelled the country in Colonial days. Her version is very
close to the way I learned it;  I wish I could remember the name of the book
I got it from!  It may have been "Folk Songs Along the Mahantongo", (sp?)
which I mention  because it's a collection of Pennsylvanis Dutch songs, and
because I can't find my copy. So it MIGHT  be in there!I recorded this on my DECCA LP  "Singing Across the Land"  in 1955,  and the
cover art, with lettering by Jon Gnagy and cartoons by me, shows Jolly Old
Roger as a typical stage German, with a white moustache, using a hammer to
mend a cookpot.Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

Hi!        The dogwoods & azaleas are blooming while the oak trees are
pollinating and we are sneezing. :-) Between sneezes, here is the weekly
list.        SONGSTERS        3515724426 - The Harrison, Tippecanoe and PATRIOTIC SONGSTER,
1840, $24.95 (ends Apr-27-03 15:26:14 PDT)        3515967959 - The Temperance Songster, 1904, $5 (ends Apr-28-03
14:31:35 PDT)        3605155407 - The Clay minstrel or National Songster, 1844,
$44.95 (ends Apr-28-03 17:31:40 PDT)        2526131917 - Clown Songster, early 1900's?, $0.99 (ends
May-01-03 12:03:38 PDT)        3516467515 - 2 small songbooks inc. THE JUVENILE SONGSTER,
c1840, $24.99 (ends May-03-03 17:36:13 PDT)        3605020645 - songster for the birthday of George Washington,
1899, $4 (ends May-04-03 21:15:00 PDT)        2525157141 - War Babies Songster, 1914, $3.88 (ends Apr-27-03
16:28:50 PDT)        3515963599 - School & Primary Songster (Mormom), 1899, $26
w/reserve (ends May-01-03 21:30:00 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3605634237 - I.W.W. songs to fan the flames of discontent, 1917,
$125 (ends May-01-03 19:00:00 PDT)        2524922879 - ENGLISH & SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS by Child, 1965
Dover edition, volume 1, $9.99 (ends Apr-26-03 16:08:27 PDT)        3515525217 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends by Korson, 1949,
$4.50 (ends Apr-26-03 18:29:20 PDT)        3515535081 - Ballads of the Great West by Fife, $5.99 (ends
Apr-26-03 19:17:52 PDT)        2524982789 - 2 Bradley Kincaid songbooks, 1937 & 1941, $5.50
(ends Apr-26-03 21:39:28 PDT)        2525085023 - The Cumberland Ridgerunners.Mountain Ballads and
Home Songs, 1936, $2.99 (ends Apr-27-03 11:22:38 PDT)        3515731609 - English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Sargent &
Kittredge, 1932 edition, $12.50 (end Apr-27-03 16:03:04 PDT)        3515763136 - Gems of Scottish Song, 1894?, $9.95 (ends Apr-27-03
18:19:38 PDT)        2525202079 - ASHER SIZEMORE AND LITTLE JIMMIE'S FAVORITE SONGS,
1934, $9.99 (ends Apr-27-03 19:07:08 PDT        3515816712 - Colonial Ballads by Anderson, 1962, $8 (ends
Apr-27-03 22:04:24 PDT)        2525387876 - Folksongs Of Britain And Ireland, $4.99 (ends
Apr-28-03 13:48:43 PDT)        3516000021 - Folk Songs of Quebec - Chansons de Quebec by Fowke,
1957, $3.99 (ends Apr-28-03 17:47:21 PDT)        2525441021 - 2 books inc. FOLK SONGS OF OLD NEW ENGLAND by
Linscott, 1939, $4.99 (ends Apr-28-03 18:21:32 PDT)        2525446720 - 5 songbooks from 1930's radio, $2.07 (ends
Apr-28-03 18:45:09 PDT)        3516073524 - The Ballad Book by Leach, 1955, $5 (ends Apr-29-03
05:06:28 PDT)        3515497450 - British Naval Songs & Ballads 1500s-1850 by Firth,
1908, $49.99 (ends Apr-29-03 15:25:07 PDT)        3516215242 - Folksongs of Britain and Ireland by Kennedy, 1975,
$16 (ends Apr-29-03 16:31:29 PDT)        3516465282 - Confederate Belles Lettres; a Bibliography of the
Fiction, Poetry, Drama, Songsters, and Miscellaneous Literature Published
in the Confederate States of America by Harwell, 1974 reprint, $9.95
(ends Apr-30-03 17:26:11 PDT)        3516500810 - Negro Folk-Songs by Curtis-Burlin, 1918, $20 (ends
Apr-30-03 19:46:09 PDT)        3516154884 - Folk Songs of the West Country by Baring-Gould,
1974 edition, 8.50 GBP (ends May-02-03 12:10:06 PDT)        3220295528 - FOLK SONGS OF THE AMERICAN NEGRO by Work, 1907,
$4.99 w/reserve (ends May-02-03 14:43:04 PDT)                                        Happy Bidding!
                                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Folks:My publisher is willing to fly me from LA to NYC to promote my forthcoming
biography of Woody Guthrie, _Ramblin' Man_ next February.  I have
suggested that W.W.  Norton also send me to Washington, D.C., on the
grounds that it is a daily/nightly hotbed of folk music.However, the promotion people want specifics.  Can anyone advise who to
contact at the Washington Folk Music Club, or at local folk clubs and
other venues, or bookstores/music shops that specialize in, or celebrate
folk music?All advice gratefully accepted.Ed

Ed:
I live outside of baltimore but not far from DC-
right next to bwi airport....(always a guest room available..)
-Washington Folk Music station is WETA the program is Mary
Cliffe/Traditions.
http://www.weta.org/fm/
 She plays music but does a way lot of promotion on her programme and if
she got you in advance she could put together a great program.For your music Dick Spotswood does a great show on American University
Radio. WAMU
http://www.wamu.org/
He is fantastic and has promoted things....
http://www.wamu.org/dickspottswood/index.html
Send him an e.mail from that page.-The Baltimore and washington folk music crowds mix...
Here is the Baltimore Society
http://www.bfms.org/
check there for events and locations. Try e.mailing them for advice.-Here is the Washington one a very active group. Check on their pages for
venues. I am sure that they could arrange something for you. I dont get
into washington much.That should get you oriented.
If you can mix your interests to include irish pubs....the favorite of mine
has long been Kellys Irish Times.
Face union station hold out your left hand and there it will be arcross
from the old washington post office now the postal museum.
They dont have music but they have the best pint.I did more concerts when in college. I now dont have the money it takes to
be "audience" so I remain with feet in dust....playing my own music.ConradEd Cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> My publisher is willing to fly me from LA to NYC to promote my forthcoming
> biography of Woody Guthrie, _Ramblin' Man_ next February.  I have
> suggested that W.W.  Norton also send me to Washington, D.C., on the
> grounds that it is a daily/nightly hotbed of folk music.
>
> However, the promotion people want specifics.  Can anyone advise who to
> contact at the Washington Folk Music Club, or at local folk clubs and
> other venues, or bookstores/music shops that specialize in, or celebrate
> folk music?
>
> All advice gratefully accepted.
>
> Ed--In work I am your man
I play and sing- I am my own  I mean free...Am I not a man
And is not a man stupid?
I am married so I married wife, children, house
everything
The full catostrophe!The Lamb...It will burn!You've got everything except madness.
A man needs a little madness or else he dairs never cut the rope nad be
free.Did you ever see a more spledifferous mess? "As you go along in life, ask yourself, `Is this worthy of my soul?' `Is
this what I'm meant to be
                   doing?'"   Nikos Kazantzakis

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