At 12:18 AM 3/19/03 -0500, you wrote:
>There's a version in the Digital Tradition.
>
> > DESCRIPTION: A servant asks a lady to wed; she put him off on the grounds
> > that they are too young. When he sees her dancing with someone else, he
> poisons
> > her wine. Feeling ill, she asks him to take her home. He reveals that both
> > have drunk poison; they die together
> > AUTHOR: unknown
> > EARLIEST DATE: 1905 (JFSS)"Earliest date 1905"?  Where was this ballad (with it's early sounding
poisoned wine plot) from ?  Did the poisoned wine perhaps get changed to a
knife, beating & drowning when it was transplanted to America later on?
There are a few 1917 versions of "The Oxford Tragedy" in Cecil Sharp's
Appalachian collection, and I sing a similar version from the Max Hunter
Collection ("The Waxweed Girl", David Pricket, Arkansas 1958) but they all
have a somewhat different plot (eliminate "servant", usually add "miller's
apprentice", she refuses him, they take a walk and he then beats and drowns
her).  I presume they are related to the poisoned wine/JealousLover
ballad.  Other Max Hunter recordings ("The Jealous Lover") have the victim
taken for a walk and then stobbed with a knife.  I do want to hear again
Roscoe Holcomb's version of "True Love" (gotta love that title, -depth of
love usually being measured by how violently you murder the object of your
devotion) to see whether it has the poisoned wine, knife, or the
beating/drowning in it.  My favorite line is from Sharp's book version "A"
from Kentucky when the spurned young man goes unto her father's
house  "A-asking her to take a walk To do some prively talk".    -Watch out
when you hear THAT line, girls!  ;)Lisa Johnson
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Harmonia's Big B. / http://www.harmonias.comBlack Creek Fiddlers' Reunion -an oldtime music festival in
upstate NY, May 2003:  http://black-creek.org
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

----- Original Message -----
From: Lisa - S. H.
Sent: 19 March 2003 13:22
Subject: Re: [BALLAD-L] The Oxford Tragedy> > > DESCRIPTION: A servant asks a lady to wed; she put him off on the
grounds
> > > that they are too young. When he sees her dancing with someone else,
he
> > poisons
> > > her wine. Feeling ill, she asks him to take her home. He reveals that
both
> > > have drunk poison; they die together
> > > AUTHOR: unknown
> > > EARLIEST DATE: 1905 (JFSS)
>
>
> "Earliest date 1905"?  Where was this ballad (with it's early sounding
> poisoned wine plot) from ?  Did the poisoned wine perhaps get changed to a
> knife, beating & drowning when it was transplanted to America later on?
> There are a few 1917 versions of "The Oxford Tragedy" in Cecil Sharp's
> Appalachian collection, and I sing a similar version from the Max Hunter
> Collection ("The Waxweed Girl", David Pricket, Arkansas 1958) but they all
> have a somewhat different plot (eliminate "servant", usually add "miller's
> apprentice", she refuses him, they take a walk and he then beats and
drowns
> her).  I presume they are related to the poisoned wine/JealousLover
> ballad.Beware of confusing The Berkshire Tragedy/Bloody Miller/Oxford Girl etc.
(Roud 263, Laws P35) with Oxford City/Newport Street/Poison in a Glass of
Wine (Roud 218, Laws P30). They are very different, though they both involve
murder and often mention Oxford. As Bruce Olson has pointed out in the past,
the former group descend from a broadside based on a documented event. The
latter has, I think, no known historical basis (though A. L. Lloyd, for one,
speculated that it might be based on a real event) and appears to be much
later. There's a good selection of broadside editions of both families to be
seen at the Bodleian Library online collection."Earliest date" at the Traditional Ballad Index refers to the earliest date
of an example they mention; it doesn't imply anything about the age of the
song-group itself.Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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On 3/19/03, Lisa - S. H. wrote:>At 12:18 AM 3/19/03 -0500, you wrote:
>>There's a version in the Digital Tradition.
>>
>>> DESCRIPTION: A servant asks a lady to wed; she put him off on the grounds
>>> that they are too young. When he sees her dancing with someone else, he
>>poisons
>>> her wine. Feeling ill, she asks him to take her home. He reveals that both
>>> have drunk poison; they die together
>>> AUTHOR: unknown
>>> EARLIEST DATE: 1905 (JFSS)
>
>
>"Earliest date 1905"?Understand what the "Earliest Date" is: It's the earliest absolute
date on which the ballad can be VERIFIED to exist in the sources
known to us. That's not when it was written. In this case, where
the authorship is unknown, it's the first datable collection.The song is probably older, since Laws notes three broadsides. But
we have no dates on those.>Where was this ballad (with it's early sounding
>poisoned wine plot) from ?This is very difficult to tell. Looking over the lists in Laws and
the upcoming Ballad Index (I should release a new version in the
next few weeks), we have the following:Grieg (Scotland)
MacColl/Seeger (Scotland)
JFSS (Somerset)
JFSS (Essex)
JFSS (Sussex)
Copper (Sussex)
Vaughn Williams/Lloyd (Norfolk)
JFSS (Dorset)
Kennedy (Northern Ireland)
Flanders/Brown (Vermont)
Gardner (Michigan)
JAF (probably New Brunswick)That looks like it might actually have originated in Oxford. :-)
But no proof.Kennedy lists many other versions, but Kennedy will lump anything
with anything, so it doesn't mean much.>Did the poisoned wine perhaps get changed to a
>knife, beating & drowning when it was transplanted to America later on?
>There are a few 1917 versions of "The Oxford Tragedy" in Cecil Sharp's
>Appalachian collection, and I sing a similar version from the Max Hunter
>Collection ("The Waxweed Girl", David Pricket, Arkansas 1958) but they all
>have a somewhat different plot (eliminate "servant", usually add "miller's
>apprentice", she refuses him, they take a walk and he then beats and drowns
>her).You're confusing two different songs. "Oxford City" (Laws P30)
is about poisoning. The other is Laws P35, "The Wexford Girl
(The Oxford, Lexington, or Knoxville Girl; The Cruel  Miller; etc.)"
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

See the article by George Eberhardt in Popular Music (I think) a few
years ago.  As I recall, he puts to rest the inconsistencies brought
up here.  The name is "Shelton" and the nickname is "Stack.">----- Original Message -----
>From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
>
>
>   <<But where another scholar might explicate a few
>   symbols and call it a day, Mr. Brown has pursued the tale to
>   its origins -- a bar fight in St. Louis in 1895, during which
>   a saloonkeeper named Lee Shelton shot William Lyons when a
>   friendly game of cards went wrong.
>
>   That incident unfolded in a setting that embodied many of the
>   changes in African-American life following Reconstruction. The
>   bar was also the local headquarters for the Democrats, at a
>   time when politicians were trying to draw black voters away
>   from the Republicans (the "party of Lincoln"). Lee Shelton was
>   also called "Stack Lee" -- a nickname with overtones of the
>   good life, for there was a riverboat of the same name
>   belonging to a line "noted for speed, sumptuous cabins,
>   elaborate cuisine, and prostitution." Besides his barkeeping
>   duties, Shelton was one of St. Louis's more successful
>   maquereaux, an expression shortened in later slang to "mack"
>   (pimp).>>
>
>It's interesting that Cecil Brown portrays Lee Shelton in this light. The
>original newspaper story (St. Louis Globe-Democrat, 12/30/1895) called him
>Lee Sheldon rather than Shelton, said that his nickname was "Stag", not
>"Stack", and listed his occupation as "carriage driver". They also noted
>that the incident took place in a Mr. Curtis's saloon, and that the argument
>was political in nature. I don't really know Cecil Brown -- we talked on the
>phone once, and e-mailed a couple of times. But I'm interested in the
>divergence between some of his details and the ones in the newspaper story.
>Of course, newspapers often get the details wrong.
>
><<  The political, economic, and sexual underworld was also a
>   place where ragtime musicians worked. "Scott Joplin probably
>   knew this guy," says Mr. Brown. "At least, he was part of the
>   same milieu as Lee Shelton." As performers retold the tale
>   beyond St. Louis, it became "a story about black masculinity"
>   in which Stagolee's expensive hat was "a symbol of pulling
>   yourself up, of at least looking presentable.">>
>
>A St. Louis judge, the first African-American district judge in our area,
>did his own investigation, speaking to other old-timers who knew Sheldon
>(Shelton) and Lyons, and concluded there was another element involved.
>According to the judge, Lee Sheldon had gone to a hoodoo lady for a charm to
>increase his sexual prowess. The talisman of that charm was his hat, a fact
>well-known in the community, so when Lyons knocked the hat off he was
>knowingly performing an act of symbolic castration. In view of that, a lot
>of the old-timers the judge talked to thought Lyons had it coming to him.
>
>Peace,
>Paul--
john garst    [unmask]

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 15:01:17 -0600
>
>Chronicle of Higher Education
>
>
>   From the issue dated March 14, 2003
>
>
>
>   A Scholar Revisits the Story of Stagolee; Anthology of Alan
>   Lomax's Writings Is Planned
>
>   By SCOTT McLEMEE
>
>    BAD TO THE BONE: His name is usually given as Stagolee,
>   though sometimes it's Stagger Lee, or Stack O'Lee. Like other
>   details, it varies, depending on who sings or recites the
>   tale. But everyone agrees that he was one hard character. When
>   Billy Lyons disrespected Stagolee by touching his fine Stetson
>   hat, there was hell to pay. "Oh please spare my life/I got two
>   little babies and an innocent wife!" pleaded Billy. It didn't
>   matter: Stagolee shot him dead anyway....This sounds a lot like Brown's PhD dissertation, which has been
available for years through UMicrofilms.--
john garst    [unmask]

Thanks for the info, Toby!  Actually, I have the Ward/Holcomb LP, but have
only listened to the Wade Ward instrumental pieces!  Without the labor of
going downstairs and listening, I'm 94% sure the NLCR followed the Stanley
Brothers version closely.Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Koosman" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:01 PM
Subject: The Oxford Tragedy> (Dave Gardner wrote)
>
>
> >   <I'm not familiar with that recording but it could be some form of =
> >"The Oxford Tragedy".  In the (British) version I know the motive is =
> >explicitly stated in the last line in case you didn't get all the other =
> >strong hints. =20
> >
> >   Thanks for the suggestion--what collection(s) have the Oxford T =
> >ragedy?
>
> Greig-Duncan probably.  The Ballad Index says that it's Laws P30.  I have
a
> recording by Sheila Stewart, who learned it from her father (piper Alec
> Stewart)'s sister Bella Higgins of Blairgowrie.  Somehow I missed all the
> American versions -- wish I had Roscoe Holcomb's.
>
> Here's the rest of the info from the ballad index -- which cites a version
> called "Poison in a Glass of Wine" by the New Lost City Ramblers,
> presumably related to the Stanleys.
>
> DESCRIPTION: A servant asks a lady to wed; she put him off on the grounds
> that they are too young. When he sees her dancing with someone else, he
poisons
> her wine. Feeling ill, she asks him to take her home. He reveals that both
> have drunk poison; they die together
> AUTHOR: unknown
> EARLIEST DATE: 1905 (JFSS)
> KEYWORDS: courting death poison murder wine suicide
> FOUND IN: US(MW,NE) Britain(Scotland,England(All)) Ireland
> REFERENCES (6 citations):
> Laws P30, "Oxford City"
> Vaughan Williams/Lloyd, p. 83, "Oxford City" (1 text, 1 tune)
> Copper-SoBreeze, pp. 212-213, "Poison in a Glass of Wine" (1 text, 1 tune)
> Kennedy 329, "Poison in a Glass of Wine" (1 text, 1 tune)
> MacSeegTrav 74, "Oxford City" (1 text, 1 tune)
> DT 508, OXFJEAL*
> RECORDINGS:
> Roscoe Holcomb, "True Love" (on Holcomb-Ward1)
> New Lost City Ramblers, "Little Glass of Wine" (on NLCR06)
> Mary Doran, "Oxford City" (on FSB7)
> ALTERNATE TITLES:
> The Jealous Lover

>
>You're confusing two different songs. "Oxford City" (Laws P30)
>is about poisoning. The other is Laws P35, "The Wexford Girl
>(The Oxford, Lexington, or Knoxville Girl; The Cruel  Miller; etc.)"
>--
>Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index EditorThanks to everyone for helping to try to unconfuse me about the two
"Oxford" ballads.
Now about the subject line on this thread....  is the title "The Oxford
Tragedy" usually applied to the Laws P30, or the Laws P35 ballad?  Seems
the versions I see of that title are mostly with the
miller/stabbing/drowning theme rather than the servant/poison wine
story.   Thanks,-Lisa
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Harmonia's Big B. / http://www.harmonias.com
Black Creek Fiddlers' Reunion -an oldtime music festival in
upstate NY, May 2003:  http://black-creek.org
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>P.S. It seems the poor drowned girl can come from any town with the letter
X in it's name.  ;)

----- Original Message -----
From: kaiser <[unmask]><<Thanks for the info, Toby!  Actually, I have the Ward/Holcomb LP, but have
only listened to the Wade Ward instrumental pieces!  Without the labor of
going downstairs and listening, I'm 94% sure the NLCR followed the Stanley
Brothers version closely.>>Yep.Peace,
Paul

On 3/19/03, Lisa - S. H. wrote:>>You're confusing two different songs. "Oxford City" (Laws P30)
>>is about poisoning. The other is Laws P35, "The Wexford Girl
>>(The Oxford, Lexington, or Knoxville Girl; The Cruel  Miller; etc.)"
>>--
>>Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
>
>
>Thanks to everyone for helping to try to unconfuse me about the two
>"Oxford" ballads.
>Now about the subject line on this thread....  is the title "The Oxford
>Tragedy" usually applied to the Laws P30, or the Laws P35 ballad?  Seems
>the versions I see of that title are mostly with the
>miller/stabbing/drowning theme rather than the servant/poison wine
>story.   Thanks,This is complicated to answer. "The Wexford Girl" is much, much
more common in tradition. Thus there may well be more versions
of Laws P35 with the "Oxford Tragedy" title than of Laws P30.
But the city name "Oxford" is probably more characteristic of
P30.In any case, one should never assume ANY song with "Tragedy"
in the title is a particular song. :-) It's a very popular name
in broadside titles, so they'll slap it on anything.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003 08:22:26 -0500, Lisa - S. H. wrote:>"Earliest date 1905"?  Where was this ballad (with it's early sounding
>poisoned wine plot) from ?  Did the poisoned wine perhaps get changed to aFor what it's worth, some random notes I've collected on the song.  Not
for any scholarly purpose, just to distinguish songs in my own record
collection.Expert Girl, Birkshire Tragedy, The Oxford Girl (Tragedy), Wexford Girl,
Knowville Girl, Lexington Girl, The Cruel Miller, The Lexington Miller, In
London's Fair City, The Poisoned Cup. ie the jealous, murdering miller,
sailor, plougboy; fatal beating with stick, explain blood as "nose bleed"in US:Knoxville Girl, Waco Girl. The New Lost City Ramblers Song Book
(1964, Oak Productions: "is related to 'Pretty Polly', and verses are
often interchanged. Although it originated in England, many American
singers accept the song as being about a local murder in their own town;
names and places are changed to fit this, yet the story remains the same.
The Carter Family recorded it as 'Never Let the Devil Get the Upper Hand
of You'..."  NLCRamblers version from the Blue Sky Boys, Bluebird B-7755B)
The oldest version would be "The Berkshire Tragedy or The Wittam Miller"
an English broadside from about 1700)-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: 20 March 2003 04:00
Subject: Re: [BALLAD-L] The Oxford Tragedy> Now about the subject line on this thread....  is the title "The Oxford
> Tragedy" usually applied to the Laws P30, or the Laws P35 ballad?  Seems
> the versions I see of that title are mostly with the
> miller/stabbing/drowning theme rather than the servant/poison wine
> story.My impression was that the discussion was intended for Laws P30, but an
unlucky choice of title was made and a certain amount of confusion ensued.So far as I can tell, "Oxford City/Poison in a Glass of Wine" (Roud 218,
Laws P30) has appeared only once (ever) titled "The Oxford Tragedy"; on the
recording made by Sheila Stewart mentioned earlier in the discussion. In
spite of the title, it begins "In London's fair city". She learned it from
her aunt, who herself began it "In Belfast City" (I don't know what Bella
Higgins called it). Further details are given in Doc Rowe's sleevenotes
(Sheila Stewart, "From the Heart of the Tradition", Topic TSCD515, 2000). It
can be easy to become confused if relying on reported song titles alone."Oxford Tragedy" isn't a particularly common title for "Oxford Girl/Cruel
Miller" etc. (Roud 263, Laws P35), either, but I think it's probably the one
most people would think of. There is an "Oxfordshire Tragedy" as well, as it
happens (Roud 8279), found mostly on broadsides and rarely in tradition; but
that too is completely unrelated (man rapes and abandons woman; later he
murders her and buries the corpse secretly. His guilt is revealed by a
magical rosebush which grows from the grave).Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 10/03/03

> Hi-
Both Laws P30 and Laws P35 (at least one sample of each) are in the Digital Tradition.  Names of ballads or songs, as I've been known to say, are a snare and a delusion.dick greenhaus> From: Malcolm Douglas <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/03/20 Thu AM 10:30:05 CST
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: The Oxford Tragedy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lisa - S. H." <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: 20 March 2003 04:00
> Subject: Re: [BALLAD-L] The Oxford Tragedy
>
>
>
> > Now about the subject line on this thread....  is the title "The Oxford
> > Tragedy" usually applied to the Laws P30, or the Laws P35 ballad?  Seems
> > the versions I see of that title are mostly with the
> > miller/stabbing/drowning theme rather than the servant/poison wine
> > story.
>
>
> My impression was that the discussion was intended for Laws P30, but an
> unlucky choice of title was made and a certain amount of confusion ensued.
>
> So far as I can tell, "Oxford City/Poison in a Glass of Wine" (Roud 218,
> Laws P30) has appeared only once (ever) titled "The Oxford Tragedy"; on the
> recording made by Sheila Stewart mentioned earlier in the discussion. In
> spite of the title, it begins "In London's fair city". She learned it from
> her aunt, who herself began it "In Belfast City" (I don't know what Bella
> Higgins called it). Further details are given in Doc Rowe's sleevenotes
> (Sheila Stewart, "From the Heart of the Tradition", Topic TSCD515, 2000). It
> can be easy to become confused if relying on reported song titles alone.
>
> "Oxford Tragedy" isn't a particularly common title for "Oxford Girl/Cruel
> Miller" etc. (Roud 263, Laws P35), either, but I think it's probably the one
> most people would think of. There is an "Oxfordshire Tragedy" as well, as it
> happens (Roud 8279), found mostly on broadsides and rarely in tradition; but
> that too is completely unrelated (man rapes and abandons woman; later he
> murders her and buries the corpse secretly. His guilt is revealed by a
> magical rosebush which grows from the grave).
>
>
> Malcolm Douglas
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.461 / Virus Database: 260 - Release Date: 10/03/03
>

There is an odd tune in Hamilton's Universal Tune-Book (1853) called
"Geological Rant".  (My interest in it is that it was adopted as a
flute piece).  Wide leaps, rather jerky rhythm, and in 6/8; none of
which fits most "rants".  Also published in E flat, which is more
a vocal than an instrumental key.Is it the tune of a comic song?  If so, where from?(I find the alternative explanation, that it was from a set dance,
somewhat improbable - simply imitating a stone was a bit sedate even
for the Victorians, and choreographed igneous dike intrusion or
strata folding would have been a bit too racy and might have ripped
a few crinolines).Here it is:X:1
T:Geological Rant
S:Hamilton's Universal Tune Book (1853 ed) v1 p70
B:NLS Inglis.52
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:Eb
(G/F/)|E2e G2e |E2B  cBG |BGc BGE|GFF F2
(G/F/)|E2e C2e |B,2d A,2c|BcB AGF|GEE E2       :|
 f    |g3  f3  |edc  c2d |eBG BGE|GFF F2
 f    |g3  fg=a|bag  fed |ded cBc|BcA GAF"D.C."||-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

In article <l03130300baa00c421e25@[194.222.239.177]>,
   Jack Campin <[unmask]> wrote:> There is an odd tune in Hamilton's Universal Tune-Book (1853)The copy in Perth seems to date from 1844 - at least that's the date
appended to the introduction. Unfortunately I can't locate the
frontispiece amongst my copies. The "Geological Rant" is listed in the
index.The tune would be difficult to sing to, wouldn't it? It seems to me to
be a composed dance tune, and it actually falls under the fingers on
the mandolin (and therefore the fiddle) better than it would on other
instruments. It reminds me very much of "The Methlick Style" (see
below) which was taught to Bill Hardie by his grandfather Wm Hardie Jr
(born c1856), and I think you've inadvertently stumbled on the probable
source of Hardie's tune. Also, the fiddlers' version - with the rough
edges smoothed by time - makes more sense as a fiddle tune, in my
opinion.X:516
T:Methlick Style, The
B:The Caledonian Companion, Alastair Hardie
Z:Nigel Gatherer
N:Simplified - grace notes removed
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:Eb
B, | E2e  G2e  | E2c    BGE    | BGc  BGE | GFE      C2D      |
     E2c  C2A  | B2G    A,2c   | B>cB AGF | G<E[EA,] [E2G,2] :|
z  | g3   f3   | edc    c2d    | eBc  BGE | GFF      F3       |
     g3   f3   | fg=a   b2g    | fdg  fdc | B3-      B3       |
     g3   f3   | edc    c2d    | eBc  BGE | GFE      C2D      |
     E<Ec C<CA | B,<B,G A,<A,c | B>cB AGF | G<E[EA,] [E2G,2] |]--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

On 21 Mar, [unmask] wrote:> In article <l03130300baa00c421e25@[194.222.239.177]>,
>    Jack Campin <[unmask]> wrote:> > There is an odd tune in Hamilton's Universal Tune-Book (1853)> ...It reminds me very much of "The Methlick Style"...I should have said that there is a lovely recording of "The Methlick
Style" on the LP 'The Fiddler's Companion' where it's played as an air
rather than a jig, which may make more sense to you in the listening.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

Folks:Pardon the cross-posting, but this volume may have interest to those on
both lists.Ed---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:44:02 -0500
From: Kriste Lindenmeyer <[unmask]>
Reply-To: H-Net Gilded Age and Progressive Era List <[unmask]>H-NET BOOK REVIEW
Published by [unmask] (February, 2003)Fred J. Hay, ed. _Goin' Back to Sweet Memphis: Conversations with
the Blues_. Illustrated by George D. Davidson. Athens: University of
Georgia Press, 2001. xxxix + 271 pp. Illustrations, discography,
bibliography, index. $34.95 (cloth), ISBN 0-8203-2301-2.Reviewed for H-South by Rob Lawson <[unmask]>,
Department of History, Vanderbilt UniversityCollaborators on a little-known, Japanese-published book entitled
_Carvin' the Blues_, documentary historian Fred Hay and artist
George Davidson should find considerable attention among blues
enthusiasts and historians of the U.S.  South with the production of
their second collaborative effort, _Goin' Back to Sweet Memphis_.
Given that the majority of the book's pages are devoted to annotated
transcriptions of interviews with Memphis blues figures, one might
surmise that this is little more than a documentary collection meant
to satisfy antiquarians of African American music. From the outset,
however, Hay makes it clear that he has a larger point to make:
Americans have replaced the sincerity of individual experience and
social meaning with a commodified and bland consumer culture that
"flattens that which is layered, conceals that which is distinctive,
dulls that which is brilliant, and glitters that which is subdued"
(p. xxv). For Hay, the blues generally, and the history of Memphis's
Beale Street particularly, serve as evidence of cultural decay in
America.  However, as the author is quick to point out, blues music
also offers Americans an authentic culture to fight off mass
consumerism.Citing the recent blues scholarship by African Americans such as
Angela Davis, Julio Finn, and Clyde Wood, Hay believes that white
authors often use the blues for their own purposes, much the same as
record executives profited from black musicians or Memphis landlords
re-developed Beale Street as a mainstream tourist attraction. To
avoid misinterpretation, Hay relies on what is for blues scholars a
time-honored method of letting the musicians speak for themselves.
Like Paul Oliver's book bearing a similar title, _Conversations with
the Blues_, and William Ferris's _Blues from the Delta_ , _Goin'
Back to Sweet Memphis_ is grounded in a number of interviews with
blues musicians. Hay and a colleague conducted all of the
interviews--eight in all--in May, 1972, during their freshmen year
at Southwestern at Memphis College (today, Rhodes College). Some of
the interviewees were well-known, commercially successful musicians
such as Booker (Bukka) White and Furry Lewis, while others--Tommy
Gary, Boose Taylor, and Little Laura Dukes--represent the larger
population of black musicians that remain familiar only to avid
blues enthusiasts and those who lived and performed with them.Fearing that too much analysis of his interviewees will trivialize
and commodify their related experiences in ways similar to white
record executives' appropriation of blues music for commercial
profit, Hay faithfully transcribed each interview in full to allow
readers to access the "truth" in these interviews. While Hay's
belief that oral histories can, in fact, serve as clear windows into
the past may meet with skepticism from some in the scholarly
community--after all, Furry Lewis remembered Franklin and Theodore
Roosevelt as being brothers--the interviews do communicate many of
the salient aspects of blues musicians' lives. Booker White
explained how, as a musician, he rejected the agricultural life
common to so many of his southern black counterparts.  Memphis Ma
Rainey's tale illustrated the vitality of black urbanism as it took
shape in the Beale Street neighborhood. Most of the interviewees
convey the regular migration of musicians in search of work, as well
as the means by which talent scouts found, recorded, and popularized
the blues artists and their music. The interviews with White and
Lewis--accomplished performers comfortable with attention--went
smoothly while others, such as the harmonica accompanist Gary, were
difficult and tedious.  The transcriptions included neighbors'
yelling, thunder claps, and the cracking of beer can tabs; all
contribute to a more comprehensive understanding of the blues
musicians and their environment.Hays, an experienced documentary historian, annotated each interview
with background information about the informants, the recording data
for their music, clarifications of statements and points of fact, as
well as other notations. Hays surely intended the notes not only to
clarify, but also to develop and deepen each performer's account,
but many times these notes disrupt the continuity of the
conversation and thereby hinder Hay's goal of giving readers the
"real thing." Likewise, the omission of lyrics and detailed
description of the songs his interviewees played for him creates a
series of dead spaces (for lack of a better term) throughout the
interviews. Copyright issues may play a role here, and in his
defense, Hay provides a substantial "recommended listening"
discography in the appendix.If Hay's main contribution to professional historians of the blues
is the documentation of heretofore hard-to-access material, then
this book is already a success. However, Davidson's illustrations
provide a multi-layered approach to alter the singular effect of
Hay's interviews.  His cover piece, "Feels like Second and Beale,"
connotes the coming together of rural music styles and the urban
environment of Memphis.  Textured backgrounds indicate the movement
and energy present both inside and outside the Beale Street juke
joints. An emphasis on curves and distorted imagery seem to convey
the experience of intoxication--a state of being whose pervasiveness
among blues musicians is evidenced in several of the interviews. All
of the illustrations, most notably "Between Dark and Break of Day"
and "Big Amos," use shape, relationship between subjects of the
composition, and facial expression to achieve a visual
representation of African-Americana reminiscent of the work of both
Archibald Motley, Jr. and Aaron Douglas.Davidson, himself a musician, fosters Hay's search for truth and
authenticity by approaching his subject with the familiarity of a
performer. In his preface, Davidson used the word
"necromancy"--applicable to blues performance--to describe the
abilities of Hay's informant and friend, Joe Willie Wilkins. He
further draws the reader into the musicians' world through the use
of non-Webster terms such as "funkocopia"  and, in a move completely
foreign in historical scholarship of the blues, Davidson includes
his own blues lyrics to convey his interpretation of the music.
Readers who allot the time necessary to meditate on the words and
images of Hay and Davidson's work will likely consider _Goin' Back
to Sweet Memphis_ less of a documentary source and more of a tribute
to Memphis's blues artists. The blues performers' words are their
great contribution to this book, but Hay and Davidson's presentation
of those words commemorates their important place in Memphis's and
America's musical culture.Hay's ascription of authenticity to certain blues performers over
others and his mourning over the transformation of Beale Street is
interpretively problematic. Like other non-African American blues
scholars such as Paul Oliver or Samuel Charters, Hay romanticizes
and authenticates a southern past in which cultural traditions such
as the blues were stronger and better, despite the institutionalized
racism that fostered blues music. Interpretations resting on
authenticity can obfuscate the historical effects of continuity and
change. For example, he sees as genuine a number of blues performers
who, as professional recording artists in urban centers, would have
been dismissed by an earlier generation of folklorists because they
were detached from the rural roots of blues music. Hay celebrates
Beale Street's past as an authentic black cultural center, even
though blues performers such as Rainey made a living there by the
very fact that their music was a commodity to be sold. Furthermore,
where does B. B. King's popular blues club on Beale Street fit into
this picture?  Does King not represent a true connection to Memphis'
blues past, or has his commercialism (most notable is his Burger
King advertising campaign)  tainted his authenticity? If it does,
then Hay should reconsider whether commercial recording devalued or
corrupted the music of his interviewees, particularly Booker White.We should not make too much of this matter of authenticity in Hay's
case, however. Memphis's Beale Street and the city's vibrant blues
scene had a profound impact on Hay as a young man. His long, close
relationship to Joe Willie Wilkins and other local performers, as
well as his experience watching Beale Street and other neighborhoods
succumb to urban decay, may account for his relative nostalgia
regarding Memphis's past. The same force that leads him to bemoan
Memphis's urban renewal efforts is the same force--love--that drove
him and Davidson to undertake this work. Those among us who value
the preservation and commemoration (two very different things that
this book achieves) of blues music in Memphis and elsewhere are
indebted to Hay and Davidson for their devotion to the music and
musicians that we, too, love.        Copyright (c) 2003 by H-Net, all rights reserved. H-Net permits
        the redistribution and reprinting of this work for nonprofit,
        educational purposes, with full and accurate attribution to the
        author, web location, date of publication, originating list, and
        H-Net: Humanities & Social Sciences Online. For other uses
        contact the Reviews editorial staff: [unmask]

>   I am trying to find the origin, date, authorship, whatever for this one:
>
>   "Who put the snatch on the Lindbergh baby
>   Was it you, was it you, was it you?...
>
>   Poor littlr Augie was playing with his doggie,
>    when out the window he flew..."
>
>  more verses about crossing the ocean/devotion, etc.
>
>  Any clues how I might track this ephemera down? It's  a tough one!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Allen
>  www.phonobooks.comNo doubt this is a tough one, and the following may be totally
unrelated, but it might be worth checking into.*******
 From http://www.cthulhulives.org/ITTOL/ITTOL.htmlCertain songs achieved fad status, including "Mister Gallagher and
Mister Shean," from a popular vaudeville routine. Mister Gallagher
and Mister Shean were constantly getting together to talk about some
current topic: the lyrics of the song's second verse were constantly
changed to reflect whatever events were in current news. At the end
of the song, the two characters emphatically agreed with each other,
saying "Positively! Mister Gallagher! Absolutely! Mister Shean!" The
words "positively" and "absolutely" were used in the twenties the way
"radical," "totally," "no way," and "way" have been used more
recently.
*******The comment about changing the verses to reflect current news is what
caught my attention.--
john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>   "Who put the snatch on the Lindbergh baby
>   Was it you, was it you, was it you?...
>...
>  Any clues how I might track this ephemera down? It's  a tough one!
******
Go to http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/mdbquery.html
Put in "was it you" and select exact phrase.
You will turn up an 1875 piece of sheet music, "Was It You?" by J. S.
Barlow.  The chorus begins, "Was it you?  Was it you?  Was it you
...."
This could easily have provided the frame work for later parody in
connection with the Lindbergh kidnapping.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Just to point out, in my self-appointed position as ombudsman for a semi-extant
bookbuyers' co-op, that if I can find three or four folks that are interested in
purchasing this (or any other book, for that matter) I can sell it at a
substantial discount.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO MusicEd Cray wrote:> Folks:
>
> Pardon the cross-posting, but this volume may have interest to those on
> both lists.
>
> Ed
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 07:44:02 -0500
> From: Kriste Lindenmeyer <[unmask]>
> Reply-To: H-Net Gilded Age and Progressive Era List <[unmask]>
>
> H-NET BOOK REVIEW
> Published by [unmask] (February, 2003)
>
> Fred J. Hay, ed. _Goin' Back to Sweet Memphis: Conversations with
> the Blues_. Illustrated by George D. Davidson. Athens: University of
> Georgia Press, 2001. xxxix + 271 pp. Illustrations, discography,
> bibliography, index. $34.95 (cloth), ISBN 0-8203-2301-2.
>
> Reviewed for H-South by Rob Lawson <[unmask]>,
> Department of History, Vanderbilt University
>
> Collaborators on a little-known, Japanese-published book entitled
> _Carvin' the Blues_, documentary historian Fred Hay and artist
> George Davidson should find considerable attention among blues
> enthusiasts and historians of the U.S.  South with the production of
> their second collaborative effort, _Goin' Back to Sweet Memphis_.
> Given that the majority of the book's pages are devoted to annotated
> transcriptions of interviews with Memphis blues figures, one might
> surmise that this is little more than a documentary collection meant
> to satisfy antiquarians of African American music. From the outset,
> however, Hay makes it clear that he has a larger point to make:
> Americans have replaced the sincerity of individual experience and
> social meaning with a commodified and bland consumer culture that
> "flattens that which is layered, conceals that which is distinctive,
> dulls that which is brilliant, and glitters that which is subdued"
> (p. xxv). For Hay, the blues generally, and the history of Memphis's
> Beale Street particularly, serve as evidence of cultural decay in
> America.  However, as the author is quick to point out, blues music
> also offers Americans an authentic culture to fight off mass
> consumerism.
>
> Citing the recent blues scholarship by African Americans such as
> Angela Davis, Julio Finn, and Clyde Wood, Hay believes that white
> authors often use the blues for their own purposes, much the same as
> record executives profited from black musicians or Memphis landlords
> re-developed Beale Street as a mainstream tourist attraction. To
> avoid misinterpretation, Hay relies on what is for blues scholars a
> time-honored method of letting the musicians speak for themselves.
> Like Paul Oliver's book bearing a similar title, _Conversations with
> the Blues_, and William Ferris's _Blues from the Delta_ , _Goin'
> Back to Sweet Memphis_ is grounded in a number of interviews with
> blues musicians. Hay and a colleague conducted all of the
> interviews--eight in all--in May, 1972, during their freshmen year
> at Southwestern at Memphis College (today, Rhodes College). Some of
> the interviewees were well-known, commercially successful musicians
> such as Booker (Bukka) White and Furry Lewis, while others--Tommy
> Gary, Boose Taylor, and Little Laura Dukes--represent the larger
> population of black musicians that remain familiar only to avid
> blues enthusiasts and those who lived and performed with them.
>
> Fearing that too much analysis of his interviewees will trivialize
> and commodify their related experiences in ways similar to white
> record executives' appropriation of blues music for commercial
> profit, Hay faithfully transcribed each interview in full to allow
> readers to access the "truth" in these interviews. While Hay's
> belief that oral histories can, in fact, serve as clear windows into
> the past may meet with skepticism from some in the scholarly
> community--after all, Furry Lewis remembered Franklin and Theodore
> Roosevelt as being brothers--the interviews do communicate many of
> the salient aspects of blues musicians' lives. Booker White
> explained how, as a musician, he rejected the agricultural life
> common to so many of his southern black counterparts.  Memphis Ma
> Rainey's tale illustrated the vitality of black urbanism as it took
> shape in the Beale Street neighborhood. Most of the interviewees
> convey the regular migration of musicians in search of work, as well
> as the means by which talent scouts found, recorded, and popularized
> the blues artists and their music. The interviews with White and
> Lewis--accomplished performers comfortable with attention--went
> smoothly while others, such as the harmonica accompanist Gary, were
> difficult and tedious.  The transcriptions included neighbors'
> yelling, thunder claps, and the cracking of beer can tabs; all
> contribute to a more comprehensive understanding of the blues
> musicians and their environment.
>
> Hays, an experienced documentary historian, annotated each interview
> with background information about the informants, the recording data
> for their music, clarifications of statements and points of fact, as
> well as other notations. Hays surely intended the notes not only to
> clarify, but also to develop and deepen each performer's account,
> but many times these notes disrupt the continuity of the
> conversation and thereby hinder Hay's goal of giving readers the
> "real thing." Likewise, the omission of lyrics and detailed
> description of the songs his interviewees played for him creates a
> series of dead spaces (for lack of a better term) throughout the
> interviews. Copyright issues may play a role here, and in his
> defense, Hay provides a substantial "recommended listening"
> discography in the appendix.
>
> If Hay's main contribution to professional historians of the blues
> is the documentation of heretofore hard-to-access material, then
> this book is already a success. However, Davidson's illustrations
> provide a multi-layered approach to alter the singular effect of
> Hay's interviews.  His cover piece, "Feels like Second and Beale,"
> connotes the coming together of rural music styles and the urban
> environment of Memphis.  Textured backgrounds indicate the movement
> and energy present both inside and outside the Beale Street juke
> joints. An emphasis on curves and distorted imagery seem to convey
> the experience of intoxication--a state of being whose pervasiveness
> among blues musicians is evidenced in several of the interviews. All
> of the illustrations, most notably "Between Dark and Break of Day"
> and "Big Amos," use shape, relationship between subjects of the
> composition, and facial expression to achieve a visual
> representation of African-Americana reminiscent of the work of both
> Archibald Motley, Jr. and Aaron Douglas.
>
> Davidson, himself a musician, fosters Hay's search for truth and
> authenticity by approaching his subject with the familiarity of a
> performer. In his preface, Davidson used the word
> "necromancy"--applicable to blues performance--to describe the
> abilities of Hay's informant and friend, Joe Willie Wilkins. He
> further draws the reader into the musicians' world through the use
> of non-Webster terms such as "funkocopia"  and, in a move completely
> foreign in historical scholarship of the blues, Davidson includes
> his own blues lyrics to convey his interpretation of the music.
> Readers who allot the time necessary to meditate on the words and
> images of Hay and Davidson's work will likely consider _Goin' Back
> to Sweet Memphis_ less of a documentary source and more of a tribute
> to Memphis's blues artists. The blues performers' words are their
> great contribution to this book, but Hay and Davidson's presentation
> of those words commemorates their important place in Memphis's and
> America's musical culture.
>
> Hay's ascription of authenticity to certain blues performers over
> others and his mourning over the transformation of Beale Street is
> interpretively problematic. Like other non-African American blues
> scholars such as Paul Oliver or Samuel Charters, Hay romanticizes
> and authenticates a southern past in which cultural traditions such
> as the blues were stronger and better, despite the institutionalized
> racism that fostered blues music. Interpretations resting on
> authenticity can obfuscate the historical effects of continuity and
> change. For example, he sees as genuine a number of blues performers
> who, as professional recording artists in urban centers, would have
> been dismissed by an earlier generation of folklorists because they
> were detached from the rural roots of blues music. Hay celebrates
> Beale Street's past as an authentic black cultural center, even
> though blues performers such as Rainey made a living there by the
> very fact that their music was a commodity to be sold. Furthermore,
> where does B. B. King's popular blues club on Beale Street fit into
> this picture?  Does King not represent a true connection to Memphis'
> blues past, or has his commercialism (most notable is his Burger
> King advertising campaign)  tainted his authenticity? If it does,
> then Hay should reconsider whether commercial recording devalued or
> corrupted the music of his interviewees, particularly Booker White.
>
> We should not make too much of this matter of authenticity in Hay's
> case, however. Memphis's Beale Street and the city's vibrant blues
> scene had a profound impact on Hay as a young man. His long, close
> relationship to Joe Willie Wilkins and other local performers, as
> well as his experience watching Beale Street and other neighborhoods
> succumb to urban decay, may account for his relative nostalgia
> regarding Memphis's past. The same force that leads him to bemoan
> Memphis's urban renewal efforts is the same force--love--that drove
> him and Davidson to undertake this work. Those among us who value
> the preservation and commemoration (two very different things that
> this book achieves) of blues music in Memphis and elsewhere are
> indebted to Hay and Davidson for their devotion to the music and
> musicians that we, too, love.
>
>         Copyright (c) 2003 by H-Net, all rights reserved. H-Net permits
>         the redistribution and reprinting of this work for nonprofit,
>         educational purposes, with full and accurate attribution to the
>         author, web location, date of publication, originating list, and
>         H-Net: Humanities & Social Sciences Online. For other uses
>         contact the Reviews editorial staff: [unmask]

Dear Jack-e-flat was not an uncommon key.   I am in possession of very early 1800's flute that is pitched a perfect e-flat.  Many  band instruments, including band flutes or fifes were pitched in "non-concert" pitches such as b flat, e flat and my personal favorite, f (can be very moody).  Is there any chance that the "jerky" rhythm you described could be an attempt to transcribe traditional Scottish "pointing"? The rant was popular in Scotland and all things Scottish were popular in Victorian England.  I suspect we might find some answers if we dig in that direction.Liz-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Campin [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, March 20, 2003 7:36 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Geological RantThere is an odd tune in Hamilton's Universal Tune-Book (1853) called
"Geological Rant".  (My interest in it is that it was adopted as a
flute piece).  Wide leaps, rather jerky rhythm, and in 6/8; none of
which fits most "rants".  Also published in E flat, which is more
a vocal than an instrumental key.Is it the tune of a comic song?  If so, where from?(I find the alternative explanation, that it was from a set dance,
somewhat improbable - simply imitating a stone was a bit sedate even
for the Victorians, and choreographed igneous dike intrusion or
strata folding would have been a bit too racy and might have ripped
a few crinolines).Here it is:X:1
T:Geological Rant
S:Hamilton's Universal Tune Book (1853 ed) v1 p70
B:NLS Inglis.52
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:Eb
(G/F/)|E2e G2e |E2B  cBG |BGc BGE|GFF F2
(G/F/)|E2e C2e |B,2d A,2c|BcB AGF|GEE E2       :|
 f    |g3  f3  |edc  c2d |eBG BGE|GFF F2
 f    |g3  fg=a|bag  fed |ded cBc|BcA GAF"D.C."||-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".

> e-flat was not an uncommon key.   I am in possession of very early
> 1800's flute that is pitched a perfect e-flat.  Many  band instruments,
> including band flutes or fifes were pitched in "non-concert" pitches
> such as b flat, e flat and my personal favorite, f (can be very moody).But nobody read for those instruments at pitch - flute music was
printed as if to be played on a D flute (with a few very rare
exceptions written in C which I have no explanation for).I have nearly finished my CD-ROM of Scottish flute music, see my
website.  I first encountered that piece in a flute manuscript
where it had been transposed into D, going way up to the second
A above the staff (I can't even remember how to do that on a flute!)
It would be window-shiveringly effective that way.I am thinking about whether to include a piece in three flats, from
Dan Wright's 1726 collection.  They pretty much vanish from Scottish
music intended for flute after that, and probably only made sense for
a flute playing (accurately!) in meantone.> Is there any chance that the "jerky" rhythm you described could
> be an attempt to transcribe traditional Scottish "pointing"?No, it's just plain strange.  Each phrase starts with long notes
and finishes in a stereotyped could-be-any-old-jig gabble, which
is what suggested to me that it was text-driven.  A dance or song
sheet would settle it.> The rant was popular in Scotland and all things Scottish were
> popular in Victorian England.  I suspect we might find some
> answers if we dig in that direction.Hamilton's collection was published in Scotland, but his editor
trawled the whole of Europe for tunes.  It's one of the wackiest
assortments of melodies ever assembled anywhere.  I would guess
this tune came from the British Isles or Anglo-North-America but
wouldn't want to be more specific than that.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack>     *     food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files, and my CD-ROM "Embro, Embro".

HiI'm not sure that this enquiry is particularly relevant to
the Ballad-L list, but thought it might be worth a try.I am currently undertaking a dissertation on the evaluation
of Internet resources on ballads and folk music (with
specific focus on Scottish folk music).I wondered if anyone might be able to advise on locating
resources which deal with the issue of digital representation
of ballads, i.e. issues of quality and accurate representation
of the subject matter.Can anyone advise at all?RegardsClare-Louise Neilson

Claire-Louise:May I ask for a clarification?  I am not quite sure just what you mean by
"issues of quality and accurate representation."  Do you mean that the
texts are accurately copied from the mouths of traditional singers?  Do
you mean that the websites have high quality photos of broadsides?  Do you
mean that words AND music are provided?How wide a net will you cast?  That is, do you consider rugby songs to be
folk music?  Bawdy songs?  There are probably two dozen of just these two.EdOn Sat, 22 Mar 2003, Neilson, Clare-Louise wrote:> Hi
>
> I'm not sure that this enquiry is particularly relevant to
> the Ballad-L list, but thought it might be worth a try.
>
> I am currently undertaking a dissertation on the evaluation
> of Internet resources on ballads and folk music (with
> specific focus on Scottish folk music).
>
> I wondered if anyone might be able to advise on locating
> resources which deal with the issue of digital representation
> of ballads, i.e. issues of quality and accurate representation
> of the subject matter.
>
> Can anyone advise at all?
>
> Regards
>
> Clare-Louise Neilson
>
>

Dear Friends,I'd like to learn more about the origins of the English folk song "Three
Jolly Rogues of Lynne:""In good old colony days when we lived under the King
There was a Miller and a Weaver and a little Tailor
Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne
Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne, Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne"Thanks,Adam Miller
Laura Lind Music
P.O. Box 620754
Woodside, CA  94062
(650)  494-1941
[unmask]
http://www.lauralind.com

>Well, The Digital Tradition has texts for most of the Child Ballads (more to come) and at least a version of all the Laws Ballads.
>
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 3/22/03, [unmask] wrote:>I'd also like to learn more about "In good old colony times," because it looks suspiciously like it would be a song written in the late 19th century (ie, popular theater music) based on the fact that in the 18th century, millers, weavers, and tailors took some of their goods "off the top" and cheated their customers.  The song often appears in anthologies of "colonial music," but I'm not sure I should believe that.  Pete BradyIf we had only the song itself as evidence, I would have to agree.
But there is counter-evidence in its distribution. The song is known
in much of England and all parts of the U. S. east of the Mississippi.
It is found in Belden, Brown, Cazden et al, Cox, Eddy, Pound, Randolph,
and Sharp.What's more, Cazden et al note point to several songsters of the
1860s in which it was deliberately amplified. Hence it must have
been well-known by then.Thus it can't be late eighteenth century, and its distribution
argues that it's probably much earlier than the earliest known
copies (those 1860s songsters).--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Adam Miller wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I'd like to learn more about the origins of the English folk song "Three
> Jolly Rogues of Lynne:"
>
> "In good old colony days when we lived under the King
> There was a Miller and a Weaver and a little Tailor
> Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne
> Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne, Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne"
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam Miller
> Laura Lind Music
> P.O. Box 620754
> Woodside, CA  94062
> (650)  494-1941
> [unmask]
> http://www.lauralind.comThe song is a result of a process of evolution.A 17th version commences "When Arthur first in court began", an
18th century one- "In days when good King Stephen reigned", and
later -"When Richard Lion ruled, why, then". The 1st and 3rd here
are given in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website.The first I've seen in a manuscript (V.a. 308) in the Folger
Shakespeare Library, of approximate date 1675 (for that section
of the MS). The opening line is borrowed from a broadside ballad
entered in 1603, ZN2818 in the broadside ballad index on my
website.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> A 17th version commences "When Arthur first in court began", an
> 18th century one- "In days when good King Stephen reigned", andIn an index of 17th century drolleries at <A
href="http://www.adamsmyth.clara.net/"> Drollery Index </A>
There are three 17th century pieces commencing "When Arthur first in
court began". It appears that that in 'Sportive Wit', 1656, concludes
"Because they could not sing", and this is likely our earliest
version. The later two may also be versions, but there's nothing I have
to confirm that.[Drollery Index: www.adamsmyth.clara.net/]Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Hi!        Taking a break from CNN, here is the weekly list.        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2517042622 - Mixed lot of 1930's country/cowboy songbooks &
sheet music, $5.99 (ends Mar-23-03 13:09:58 PST)        3507723890 - OLD SONGS & SINGING GAMES by Chase, 1972 Dover
edition, $3 (ends Mar-23-03 17:01:02 PST)        2517602020 - AMERICAN FOLKSONG by Guthrie, 1947, $225 (ends
Mar-23-03 17:16:55 PST) The price seems more than a bit high!        3507987336 - HULLABALOO AND OTHER SINGING FOLK GAMES by Chase,
1949, $3.50 (ends Mar-24-03 18:45:29 PST)        2516941862 - ROSCO & HOCKWALD'S FAMOUS GEORGIA MINSTREL
SONGSTER, 1912, $9.99 (ends Mar-25-03 05:16:31 PST)        3508239021 - Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman by Doerflinger,
1990 printing, $9.99 (ends Mar-25-03 23:52:08 PST)        2166026363 - ROXBURGHE BALLADS, 1847, $149.50 (ends Mar-26-03
04:49:24 PST)        2517289417 - SONGS AND BALLADS FROM NOVA SCOTIA by Creighton,
1966 Dover printing, $5.50 (ends Mar-26-03 13:31:54 PST)        3508362803 - SINGING FAMILY OF THE CUMBERLANDS by Ritchie, 1955,
$9 (ends Mar-26-03 13:45:59 PST)        3508397729 - Religious Folk-Songs of The Negro as Sung At
Hampton Institute by Dett, 1927, $9.99 (ends Mar-26-03 17:24:35 PST)        3508403639 - The Ballad Book by Leach, $3 (ends Mar-26-03
17:52:00 PST)        3508422717 - Songs of the Cattle Trail and Cow Camp by Lomax,
1979 printing, $1.49 (ends Mar-26-03 19:17:12 PST)        2517597112 - The Lonely Mountaineers - Mountain Ballads and
Cowboy Songs, 1934, $0.99 (ends Mar-27-03 16:55:45 PST)        2517196314 - Garland of English Folk-Songs by Kidson, 1926, 1.99
GBP (ends Mar-29-03 06:15:30 PST)        3508352475 - New Zealand Folksongs by Colquhoun, 1973, $12 AU
(ends Mar-29-03 12:59:48 PST)        3508382327 - Ballads and Folk Songs of the Southwest:More Than
600 Titles, Melodies, and Texts Collected in Oklahoma by Moore, 1966
printing, $9.50 (ends Mar-29-03 15:47:55 PST)        2517417859 - Late Leaves From Lincolnshire by Dawson, Pape &
O'Shaughnessy, 1980, 2.99 GBP (ends Mar-30-03 04:34:44 PST)        3508731035 - THE SONGS OF IRELAND by Hatton & Malloy, 1899,
24.99 GBP (ends Mar-31-03 08:06:52 PST)        3508800865 - Modern Street Ballads by Ashton, 1968 printing of
1888 original, $5 (ends Mar-31-03 14:08:20 PST)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

> Date:    Sat, 22 Mar 2003 10:03:36 -0800
> From:    Adam Miller <[unmask]>
> Subject: Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> I'd like to learn more about the origins of the English folk song "Three
> Jolly Rogues of Lynne:"
>
> "In good old colony days when we lived under the King
> There was a Miller and a Weaver and a little Tailor
> Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne
> Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne, Three Jolly Rogues of Lynne"
>
I've also seen the first verse as:King Arthur had three sons, that he did.
King Arthur had three sons, that he did.
He had three sons of yore,
And he kicked them out of door
Because they would not sing.A quick google brings this up, from an Arthurian website:*/Arthurian Annals/**© Dan Nastali and Phil Boardman**Sample Section: Arthurian Works 1800-1804*| Annals <index.html> | Previous <late16th.htm> | Next <1805-1810.htm> |*1800**1800.1   "King Arthur Had Three Sons," 19th century. *    The song is sung by a character in Thomas Hardy's 1872 novel, /Under
    the Greenwood Tree/, and was given a choral setting by Rutland
    Boughton (1904). The song has been collected in Buck and Wood, /The
    Oxford Song Book/ (1916) and Sharp's /One Hundred English
    Folk-Songs/ (1916). Variant versions are given in Oliver Huckel's
    /Through England with Tennyson/ (1913) and in the journal
    /Pendragon/ (1978).    A traditional comic song of undetermined origin about a miller, a
    weaver and a tailor, identified as Arthur's sons for no apparent
reason.    *Keywords: */Primary; Arthur; music; folklore/

Folks:As Dolores notes, the ebay offering of Woody Guthrie's _American Folksong_
at $225 is quite expensive, even for a 1947 first edition of this work.
It was reprinted from offset plates in 1961 by Oak Publications (now Music
Sales).  A clean copy of the identical 1961 reprint might go for $20.Ed

There's a note in Digital Tradition at the song "Pretty Peggy"'note: Sent by R.M. Davids of Cross-X Ranch, Woodmere, Florida, to Robert
W. Gordon, this is in the Davids manuscript in the Gordon "Inferno"
collection at the Library of Congress.  Not clear in this version is the
reason the rich merchant cannot spy Pretty Peggy at the seashore.  In a
stanza missing here, the young lady has disguised herself as an old crone.
For a fuller text of this rare ballad, see...
And it breaks off there.'The song (as I'm sure all will now know) is a version of "The Merchant and
the Beggar Wench," (or "The Beggar Wench") Greig~Duncan vol 2, #303 or
Digital Trad "The Merchant's Son" (unnumbered) and in my collection
recorded by Norman Kennedy, Archie Fisher & Davy Stewart but also likely
many, many others.'The Ballad Index entry includes: DESCRIPTION: A merchant's son meets a
beggar girl; they go to bed and, being drunk, sleep soundly. She awakens
first, takes his clothes and gear, and leaves. He awakes to find only the
girl's clothes, which he puts on, swearing never to sleep with a beggar
again'It might add that the often omitted reason he "feels pity for her
distress" is that typically the beggar (ie, Gypsy) weave the usual tale of
her sorrows & travails - that she's not _really_ a hooker.It struck me for several reasons.1) I have _very_ few notes from on the "Inferno" - just those few
scattered in the typescript (not including the above) and would be glad to
know of any availability of more such.2) I haven't come across any other American versions3) In the Scots versions, she's clearly done up as a beggar, dirty & in
rags.  Since she's a thief and all (typical of Gypsy in many songs, of
course) it may be assumed that when she was not working she would clean up
and wear normal clothes.  But, she does make off with the rich merchant's
valuable clothes and all his gear (sometimes £500 {PS}) and the story ends
with him going down the street stamping and swearing, wearing her cast off
old clothes.We always feel in the known versions that the outcome is justified - he is
not a Rich Merchant, he's only a Rich Merchant's Son and a taker-
advantageer-of-distressed-beggar-girls, a roue, playboy and so much a
drunk he doesn't even get laid.  She does steal but what do you expect
from a Gyppo, anyway, and besides, he deserved it.  As it were.In Davids manuscript a new dimension is added - he goes looking for her
but she is now - or is disguised as - a rich lady in fine clothing and he
cannot recognize her.
        Now Peggy is rich and lives by the seashore.
        She swears by her Maker she'll whore it no more,
        Unless some poor sailor is sadly in want
        For the tars of Columbia shall never lack [cunt].She's now a hero and a true American patriot and has (I suppose) invested
his money and done quite well for herself.  Maybe this is Scottish class
consciousness transformed into American enlightened capitalism.
("Enlightened" because even though she's now rich, she won't eschew the
poor, needy sailors in their plight.)Well, I like to sing the song.4) Has the note writer (Gordon?) confused this song with "The Half-Hitch,"
(Child 31_appen) or might there be an additional layer of deceit floating
around here somewhere?-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Abby Sale wrote:
>
>
> The song (as I'm sure all will now know) is a version of "The Merchant and
> the Beggar Wench," (or "The Beggar Wench") Greig~Duncan vol 2, #303 or
> Digital Trad "The Merchant's Son" (unnumbered) and in my collection
> recorded by Norman Kennedy, Archie Fisher & Davy Stewart but also likely
> many, many others.
>
> 'The Ballad Index entry includes: DESCRIPTION: A merchant's son meets a
> beggar girl; they go to bed and, being drunk, sleep soundly. She awakens
> first, takes his clothes and gear, and leaves. He awakes to find only the
> girl's clothes, which he puts on, swearing never to sleep with a beggar
> again'
>"The Merchant's Son and the Beggar Wench of Hull", ZN3016 in the
broadside ballad index on my website. I doubt it was very old when
printed in 'A Collection of Old Ballads', II, p. 228, 1723.Despite some similarities, I wouldn't take "Pretty Peggy" to be a
version of the "The Merchant's Son and the Beggar Wench of Hull".Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Abby Sale wrote:
>
> There's a note in Digital Tradition at the song "Pretty Peggy"
>
> 'note: Sent by R.M. Davids of Cross-X Ranch, Woodmere, Florida, to Robert
> W. Gordon, this is in the Davids manuscript in the Gordon "Inferno"
> collection at the Library of Congress.  Not clear in this version is the
> reason the rich merchant cannot spy Pretty Peggy at the seashore.  In a
> stanza missing here, the young lady has disguised herself as an old crone.
> For a fuller text of this rare ballad, see...
> And it breaks off there.'
>
> The song (as I'm sure all will now know) is a version of "The Merchant and
> the Beggar Wench," (or "The Beggar Wench") Greig~Duncan vol 2, #303 or
> Digital Trad "The Merchant's Son" (unnumbered) and in my collection
> recorded by Norman Kennedy, Archie Fisher & Davy Stewart but also likely
> many, many others.
>
> 'The Ballad Index entry includes: DESCRIPTION: A merchant's son meets a
> beggar girl; they go to bed and, being drunk, sleep soundly. She awakens
> first, takes his clothes and gear, and leaves. He awakes to find only the
> girl's clothes, which he puts on, swearing never to sleep with a beggar
> again'
>
> It might add that the often omitted reason he "feels pity for her
> distress" is that typically the beggar (ie, Gypsy) weave the usual tale of
> her sorrows & travails - that she's not _really_ a hooker.
>
> It struck me for several reasons.
>
> 1) I have _very_ few notes from on the "Inferno" - just those few
> scattered in the typescript (not including the above) and would be glad to
> know of any availability of more such.
>
> 2) I haven't come across any other American versions
>
> 3) In the Scots versions, she's clearly done up as a beggar, dirty & in
> rags.  Since she's a thief and all (typical of Gypsy in many songs, of
> course) it may be assumed that when she was not working she would clean up
> and wear normal clothes.  But, she does make off with the rich merchant's
> valuable clothes and all his gear (sometimes £500 {PS}) and the story ends
> with him going down the street stamping and swearing, wearing her cast off
> old clothes.
>
> We always feel in the known versions that the outcome is justified - he is
> not a Rich Merchant, he's only a Rich Merchant's Son and a taker-
> advantageer-of-distressed-beggar-girls, a roue, playboy and so much a
> drunk he doesn't even get laid.  She does steal but what do you expect
> from a Gyppo, anyway, and besides, he deserved it.  As it were.
>
> In Davids manuscript a new dimension is added - he goes looking for her
> but she is now - or is disguised as - a rich lady in fine clothing and he
> cannot recognize her.
>         Now Peggy is rich and lives by the seashore.
>         She swears by her Maker she'll whore it no more,
>         Unless some poor sailor is sadly in want
>         For the tars of Columbia shall never lack [cunt].
>
> She's now a hero and a true American patriot and has (I suppose) invested
> his money and done quite well for herself.  Maybe this is Scottish class
> consciousness transformed into American enlightened capitalism.
> ("Enlightened" because even though she's now rich, she won't eschew the
> poor, needy sailors in their plight.)
>
> Well, I like to sing the song.
>
> 4) Has the note writer (Gordon?) confused this song with "The Half-Hitch,"
> (Child 31_appen) or might there be an additional layer of deceit floating
> around here somewhere?
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml"Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985The last verse goes:Now lang preston peggy lives nigh and see shor
And she swears by old Ingland shel never sport more
Unles with sum sailer or sum in great nead
Since the whors of old Ingland is all gon indead.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:> "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
> Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
> Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985
>
> The last verse goes:
>
> Now lang preston peggy lives nigh and see shor
> And she swears by old Ingland shel never sport more
> Unles with sum sailer or sum in great nead
> Since the whors of old Ingland is all gon indead.Ah, thank you for that. It renders part of the following redundant, but
anyway:The Digitrad "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Sweet Kitty" (Roud 1349) rather
than "The Merchant's Son and the Beggar Maid of Hull" (Roud 2153; broadside
examples at the Bodleian). There are a number of points of similarity
between the songs, but the outcome is rather different. Cecil Sharp noted
several truncated sets of "Sweet Kitty", including one from the redoubtable
Mrs Overd of Langport, who quoted from it ("Lor, girls, here's my beau come
at last") when they first met. A. L. Lloyd borrowed a couple of lines from
it for the set of "Lovely Joan" in the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs
(but didn't say so); otherwise it doesn't appear to be very well known. I'd
be interested to hear of other examples.The set Sharp got from Captain Lewis at Minehead retains a form of the final
verse:So now pretty Molly she lives on the shore,
She never will go out a-courting any more,
Unless some young sailor should be greatly in want
For the lose of old England shall never want salt juice (?).Malcolm Douglas---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Bruce Olson wrote:
> "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
> Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
> Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985
>
> The last verse goes:
>
> Now lang preston peggy lives nigh and see shor
> And she swears by old Ingland shel never sport more
> Unles with sum sailer or sum in great nead
> Since the whors of old Ingland is all gon indead.
>A variant version is "Preston Peggy" in Peter Buchan's 'Secret Songs of
Silence' MS, but it doesn't end with the verse quoted above.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>
> > "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
> > Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
> > Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985
> >
> > The last verse goes:
> >
> > Now lang preston peggy lives nigh and see shor
> > And she swears by old Ingland shel never sport more
> > Unles with sum sailer or sum in great nead
> > Since the whors of old Ingland is all gon indead.
> >
>An expurgated broadside version, "Long Waisted Peggy", is given from a
J. Pitts issue in the Madden collection in Holloway and Black's 'Later
English Broadside Ballads', II, #11.There that last verse runs:Pretty Pegg's gone home into merry Yorkshire,
She vows and declares she'll be a loose girl no more
Unless it a soldier who's deeply in want
That the girls of Old England may never grow scant.A two verse fragment (labeled as such) is "Long Preston Peg" near the
end of Robert Bell's 'Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England",
where it is stated that the 'The song is evidently of the date of the
first rebellion, 1715'.My recollection is that there is also a fragment in Harlan's 'Lancashire
Ballads', 1875.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> My recollection is that there is also a fragment in Harlan's 'Lancashire
> Ballads', 1875.
>Sorry, I quoted from a defective memory. That's John Harland, 'Ballads
and Songs of Lancashire', and in addition to the 1875 edition there was
a 3rd in 1882. I have no information on a 2nd edition.D. I. Harker refered to the 1882 edition for information about the song.
Harker also puts the song, which mentions Scots rebels, at 1745 rather
than 1715.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

For those with an interest in recordings from the era in which country
music and folk music had at best a blurred distinction, Yazoo Records
has just launched a block-buster: Kentucky Mountain Music. It's a 7-CD
set, complete with a 32-page 5" x 11" booklet with photos and background
notes.
    It's a spectacular set, much like the products of the Bear Family,
but at a much more attractive price: CAMSCO Music (800/548-FOLK or
[unmask]) is selling the boxed set for $60.Re-mastering is up to
Yazoo's usual very high standard.Track listing:Disc 1
1. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Ladies On The Steamboat
2. BUELL KAZEE,
The Dying Soldier
3. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Little Rabbit/Rabbit Where's Your Mammy
4. SHORTBUCKLE ROARKE & FAMILY,
I Truly Understand You Love Another Man
5. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Eighth Of January
6. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
All Night Long Blues
7. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Shipping Port
8. ROBERT L. DAY,
The Rowan County Crew
9. DOC ROBERTS,
Deer Walk
10. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Let Her Go, I'll Meet Her
11. WALTER FAMILY,
That's My Rabbit, My Dog Caught It
12. MARTIN & ROBERTS,
Lillie Dale
13. RUTHERFORD, MOORE & BURNETT,
Cumberland Gap
14. JAMES HOWARD,
The Old Fish Song
15. FORT THOMAS GROUP,
The Red Hill Special
16. GREEN BAILEY,
If I Die A Railroad Man
17. J. W. DAY,
Grand Hornpipe
18. WALTER WILLIAMS,
East Virginia
19. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Forked Deer
20. PETE STEELE,
Pretty Polly
21. JUSTIS BEGLEY,
Run Banjo
22. KENTUCKY MOUNTAIN CHORUSTERS,
We'll Understand It Better Bye And ByeDisc 2
1. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Curley Headed Woman
2. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Gate To Go Through
3. MARTIN & ROBERTS,
Hot Corn
4. TAYLOR, MOORE & BURNETT,
Grandma's Rag
5. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
I'm As Free Little Birdie As Can Be
6. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Rocky Mountain Goat
7. GREEN BAILEY,
Shut Up in Coal Creek Mine
8. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Sugar In My Coffee (Medley)
9. BUELL KAZEE,
The Butcher's Boy
10. DOC ROBERTS,
New Money
11. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Pearl Bryan
12. KENTUCKY STRING TICKLERS,
Crooked John
13. DAW HENSON,
The Moonshiner
14. J. W. DAY,
Forked Deer
15. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
The Dixie Cowboy
16. WALTER WILLIAMS,
Mississippi Sawyer
17. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Six Months Ain't Long
18. ED MORRISON,
Blackberry Blossom
19. THEOPHILUS HOSKINS,
Ellen Smith
20. HENRY L. BANDY,
Five Up
21. PETE STEELE,
Payday At Coal Creek
22. JUSTIS BEGLEY,
Golden Willow Tree
23. ALICE & MARTHA WILLIAMS & ELIZABETH FLATT,
The Last AppealDisc 3
1. J. W. DAY,
Way Up On Clinch Mountain
2. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Going To Jail
3. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Richmond Blues
4. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Soap In The Washpan
5. McVAY & JOHNSON,
Ain't Going To Lay My Armor Down
6. BLUE RIDGE MOUNTAINEERS,
Old Voile
7. ASA MARTIN,
Gentle Annie
8. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Billy In The Low Ground
9. DAW HENSON,
Lady Margaret And Sweet William
10. DOC ROBERTS,
And The Cat Came Back
11. WALTER WILLIAMS,
Pass Around The Bottle
12. MARION UNDERWOOD,
Coal Creek March
13. PETE STEELE,
Johnny O Johnny
14. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Taylor's Quickstep (Monroe County Quickstep)
15. JUSTIS BEGLEY,
I've Been All Around This World
16. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Jenny Baker
17. CLAY WALTERS,
Come All You Roving Cowboys
18. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Soldier's Joy
19. MAYNARD BRITTON,
I Came To This Country
20. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Medley Of Old Time Dance Tunes Part 1
21. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Rambling Reckless Hobo
22. BILL STEPP & WALTER WILLIAMS,
Wild Horse
23. BOYD ASHER,
Old Christmas
24. TED CHESNUT,
The Rowan County Feud
25. HATTON BROTHERS,
Wish I Had My Time AgainDisc 4
1. BLUE RIDGE MOUNTAINEERS,
Old Flannigan
2. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Willie Moore
3. J. W. DAY,
The Wild Wagoner
4. ASA MARTIN,
My Cabin Home Among The Hills
5. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Bow Legged Irishman
6. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
There's No One Like The Old Folks
7. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Old Blind Dog
8. BUELL KAZEE,
The Sporting Bachelors
9. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Sourwood Mountain
10. JUSTIS BEGLEY,
The Roving Boy
11. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Medley Of Old Time Dance Tunes Part 2
12. PETE STEELE,
Lack Fol Diddle I Day
13. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Lost John
14. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
There's More Pretty Girls Than One
15. WALTER FAMILY,
Shaker Ben
16. REV. SHERWIN SIZEMORE & CHURCH OF THE TEN ELDERS,
Jesus Walking Through The Land
17. GREEN'S STRING BAND,
Pickaway
18. DAW HENSON,
Wallins Creek Girls
19. ED MORRISON,
We'll All Go To Heaven When The Devil Goes Blind
20. WALTER WILLIAMS,
John Hardy
21. HACK'S STRING BAND,
Wink The Other Eye
22. BOYD ASHER,
Hickory Jack
23. J. M. MULLINS,
Working's Too Hard
24. HENRY L. BANDY,
Sail Away Ladies
25. KENTUCKY MOUNTAIN CHORUSTERS,
The Great Reaping DayDisc 5
1. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Buffalo Gals (Medley)
2. HOWARD & PEAK,
Three Black Sheep
3. CLIFFORD GROSS,
Run Them Coons In The Ground
4. GREEN BAILEY,
I Wish I Was A Mole In The Ground
5. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Fire On The Mountain
6. OAKS FAMILY,
Wake Up You Drowsy Sleepers
7. CHARLIE WILSON & HIS HILLBILLIES,
Cuttin At The Point
8. BUELL KAZEE,
The Cowboy Trail
9. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Drink More Cider
10. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Two Faithful Lovers
11. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Maxwell Girl
12. DAW HENSON,
Swafford Branch Stills
13. LONESOME LUKE & HIS FARM BOYS,
Wild Hog In The Woods
14. MARVIN THORNTON & FORT THOMAS GROUP,
The Soldier And The Lady
15. KENTUCKY WOODCHOPPERS,
Pine Tree
16. GREEN MAGGARD,
Lord Daniel
17. KENTUCKY STRING TICKLERS,
Leaving Here Blues
18. JAMES HOWARD,
The Peddler And His Wife
19. DOC ROBERTS,
Waynesburgh
20. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
Little Stream Of Whiskey
21. MADISONVILLE STRING BAND,
Next To Your Mother, Who Do You Love
22. PETE STEELE,
Little Birdie
23. THEOPHILUS HOSKINS,
Hog Eyed Man
24. WALTER WILLIAMS,
(fragment)
25. McVAY & JOHNSON,
I'll Be Ready When The Bridegroom ComesDisc 6
1. MANGRUM & SHRIVER,
Bill Cheatam
2. BUELL KAZEE,
Short Life Of Trouble
3. MADISONVILLE STRING BAND,
B Flat Rag
4. GREEN BAILEY,
The Fate Of Ellen Smith
5. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Washington Quadrille
6. RUTHERFORD & FOSTER,
Storms May Rule The Ocean
7. TAYLOR'S KENTUCKY BOYS,
Gray Eagle
8. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Bile Dem Cabbage Down
9. DOC ROBERTS,
Martha Campbell
10. BURNETT & RUTHERFORD,
I'll Be With You When The Roses Bloom Again
11. CHARLIE WILSON & HIS HILLBILLIES,
Shelvin Rock
12. BUELL KAZEE,
The Roving Cowboy
13. TED GOSSETT'S BAND,
Fox Chase
14. LONESOME LUKE & HIS FARM BOYS,
Dogs In The Ashcan
15. GREEN MAGGARD,
Come All Ye Fair And Handsome Girls
16. PETE STEELE,
Rambling Hobo
17. CLIFFORD GROSS,
Leather Breeches
18. BILL BUNDY,
Poison In A Glass Of Wine
19. TOM WEST,
The Valentine
20. WALTER FAMILY,
Flying Cloud Waltz
21. ED MORRISON,
A Western Union Telegram
22. JAMES HOWARD,
My Little Carpenter
23. HATTON BROTHERS,
Hook And Line
24. OAKS FAMILY,
Will It PayDisc 7
1. CLIFFORD GROSS,
Rocky Mountain Goat
2. BUELL KAZEE,
The Orphan Girl
3. DOC ROBERTS TRIO,
Honeymoon Stomp
4. GEORGE ROARK,
I Ain't A Bit Drunk
5. MANGRUM & SHRIVER,
Bacon And Cabbage
6. HOWARD & PEAK,
I Cannot Be Your Sweetheart
7. J. W. DAY,
Little Boy Working On The Road
8. MARTIN & HOBBS,
I Must See My Mothers
9. KENTUCKY WOODCHOPPERS,
New Harmony Waltz
10. CROCKETT FAMILY MOUNTAINEERS,
Sugar Hill
11. HACK'S STRING BAND,
Kentucky Plowboy's March
12. OAKS FAMILY,
You'll Miss Me When I'm Gone
13. KENTUCKY STRING TICKLERS,
Tipple Blues
14. TED CHESNUT,
He's Only A Miner Killed In The Ground
15. DOC ROBERTS,
Rye Straw
16. RUTHERFORD, MOORE & BURNETT,
She's A Flower From The Fields Of Alabama
17. JIMMY JOHNSON'S STRING BAND,
Ching Chow
18. SHORTBUCKLE ROARK & FAMILY,
My Mother's Hands
19. MADISONVILLE STRING BAND,
My Pretty Snow Deer
20. WALTER FAMILY,
Walter Family Waltz
21. HENRY L. BANDY,
Going Across The Sea
22. TAYLOR, MOORE & BURNETT,
Knoxville Rag
23. BUELL KAZEE,
I'm Rolling Along

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:21:17 -0000, Malcolm Douglas wrote:>Bruce Olson wrote:
>
>> "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Long Preston Peggy (the proud Preston
>> Whore)". Most texts are expurgated and fragmentary. See that in D.I
>> Harker's 'Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell', #182, 1985
>>
>
>
>Ah, thank you for that. It renders part of the following redundant, but
>anyway:
>
>The Digitrad "Pretty Peggy" is a version of "Sweet Kitty" (Roud 1349) rather
>than "The Merchant's Son and the Beggar Maid of Hull" (Roud 2153; broadside
>examples at the Bodleian). There are a number of points of similarity
>between the songs, but the outcome is rather different.
===>
>A variant version is "Preston Peggy" in Peter Buchan's 'Secret Songs of
>Silence' MS, but it doesn't end with the verse quoted above.Well, I'll be ding-busted! Thank you Bruce & Malcolm.  I'm most impressed.
And confuseder than ever.  The two songs seem so close to me, especially
as in Buchan where it's clearly a 'Preston' song but the outcome is
unclear.  (He doesn't search for her & she does not live on the shore or
help out distressed sailors; although she may now be rich.)To me the core element is the trick but the Inferno version is obviously
(now) Preston Peggy/Sweet Kitty.  Makes me wish there were a wider
diversity of versions of "Merchant's Son."  I can't help thinking these
songs cross somewhere.I also wonder where Mr Davids (as per Gordon) got his very complete
version.  I notice it was sent to Gordon by JC Colcord...Joanna, I assume,
and that she would have been collecting sailor-connected material.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Abby Sale wrote:
>
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:21:17 -0000, Malcolm Douglas wrote:
>> I also wonder where Mr Davids (as per Gordon) got his very complete
> version.  I notice it was sent to Gordon by JC Colcord...Joanna, I assume,
> and that she would have been collecting sailor-connected material.
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtmlThe tales are similar, but neither is unique.After assignation man is left with only woman's clothes in which
to return home: 1-"Merchant's son and beggar wench"; 2-"The Shirt
and Apron" (Laws K42, Greenleaf and Mansfield, 'Ballads and Seas
Songs of Newfoundland', #112. Collected from Abraham White, Sandy
Cove, 1929)After assignation man's gold watch and money/purse are stolen:
1-"Long Preston Peggy"/"Pretty Peggy"; 2-"Gold Watch" (Laws K41,
Greenleaf and Mansfield, 'Ballads and Sea Songs of Newfoundland',
#52. Collected from Will White, Sandy Cove, 1929)Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 17:22:08 -0500, Bruce Olson wrote:>The tales are similar, but neither is unique.
>
>After assignation man is left with only woman's clothes in which
>to return home: 1-"Merchant's son and beggar wench"; 2-"The Shirt
>and Apron" (Laws K42, Greenleaf and Mansfield, 'Ballads and Seas
>Songs of Newfoundland', #112. Collected from Abraham White, Sandy
>Cove, 1929)
>
>After assignation man's gold watch and money/purse are stolen:
>1-"Long Preston Peggy"/"Pretty Peggy"; 2-"Gold Watch" (Laws K41,
>Greenleaf and Mansfield, 'Ballads and Sea Songs of Newfoundland',
>#52. Collected from Will White, Sandy Cove, 1929)What does it say about "The Tailor's Breeches" (another favorite of mine)
in which there is no disguise or assignation.  There is drunken dance
during which the (unsympathetic) man's gold watch and money (and clothing)
are stolen.  Further, man is left with only woman's clothes in which
to return home.Are any tunes given for "Long Preston Peggy"/"Pretty Peggy"/"Sweet Kitty?"-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Hi!        Another week - another list! There is lots of variety as usual!        SONGSTERS        3600543698 - Merchant's Gargling Oil Songster, 1887, $7.99 (ends
Mar-29-03 18:59:03 PST) There is another copy in auction 3601415377
$9.99 (ends Apr-02-03 11:01:26 PST)        2166904550 - Balm of Gillead Songster, 1877, $10 (ends Mar-31-03
13:01:47 PST)        3509599100 - WHERE DID YOU GET THAT GIRL? SONGSTER, 1905, $4.99
(ends Mar-31-03 20:30:20 PST)        3509757506 - FAIRBURNS EVERLASTING SONGSTER, $14.99 (ends
Apr-01-03 15:57:41 PST)        2167196595 - Lookout Mountain Songster No. 1, $9.99 (ends
Apr-02-03 09:41:10 PST)        2518966854 - 4 songsters, Johnny Paterson's Great London Circus
Songster, Bring Down the Curtain Songster, Johnny Smiths Variety Songster
and Stick to your Mother Tom Songster, 1873-1885, $9 (ends Apr-02-03
11:37:10 PST)        3510223073 - Star Spangled Banner Songster, 1890, $9.99 (ends
Apr-06-03 18:59:06 PST)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        2518144146 - Cousin Lee Album of Hill Country Ballads & Old Time
Songs, 1936, $7.50 (ends Mar-30-03 07:44:25 PST)        2518145473 - Budge & Fudge song folio, 1945?, $2.50 (ends
Mar-30-03 07:51:25 PST) This seller has a number of similar folios which
all end this week. If this is an area of interest, check "Seller's Other
Items"        3509286547 - Ballads of the Great West by Fife, 1970. $5 (ends
Mar-30-03 15:00:19 PST)        2518547325 - THE SHANTY BOOK by Evans, 1921, $4.95 (ends
Mar-31-03 15:59:59 PST)        3509585067 - Yiddish Folksongs With Melodies by Cahan, 1957, $24
(ends Mar-31-03 19:24:30 PST)        3509602308 - The Wearing of the Green, The Lore, Literature,
Legend and Balladry of the Irish in Australia by Wannan, 1965, $4.95 AU
(ends Mar-31-03 20:56:57 PST)        3508932483 - Mellows by Kennedy, 1925, $19.99 (ends Apr-01-03
09:14:26 PST)        3509768034 - 3 volumes (Border Ballads by Tomson, Jacobite Songs
& Ballads by MacQuoid, & Contemporary Scottish Verse by Douglas), 1888,
$49.99 (ends Apr-01-03 17:01:32 PST)        2518697968 - Ballad Book by Niles, 1961, $14.50 (ends Apr-01-03
09:53:43 PST)        3509826173 - MUSIC OF THE PEOPLE: A STUDY OF POPULAR MUSIC IN
GREAT BRITAIN by Lee, 1970, $5.99 (ends Apr-01-03 22:04:39 PST)        3509890850 - Scottish Ballads by Lyle, $3.99 (ends Apr-02-03
09:43:48 PST)        3509905741 - Land Where the Blues Began by Lomax, book & CD, $10
w/reserve (ends Apr-02-03 10:47:34 PST)        2518249164 - West Virginia Centennial Book of Songs 1863 - 1963,
$9.99 (ends Apr-02-03 13:38:21 PST)        2519046815 - MOUNTIAN SONGS AND PRAIRIE BALLADS NO. 335, 1935,
$4 (ends Apr-02-03 17:49:08 PST)        3509370635 - English & Scottish Popular Ballads by Child, 1965
Dover edition, $399.50 (ends Apr-02-03 19:54:15 PST)        2519082300 - Silver Chord, 1862, $9.95 (ends Apr-02-03 20:36:39
PST)        2518433060 - Blue Grass Roy - the Hamlins Korn Kracker Book no.
4, 1936, $5.99 (ends Apr-03-03 07:40:37 PST)        3510249810 - Hampton Series Book II Negro Folk-Songs, 1918, $20
(ends Apr-03-03 19:45:33 PST)        2519070082 - Scottish Minstrelsy by Scott, 1839 printing, $69
(ends Apr-05-03 19:30:55 PST)        2519296996 - Sing Care Away by Sharp/Karpeles, 1970? printing,
$6.99 (ends Apr-06-03 18:44:35 PDT)        3510270765 - English Folk-Songs from the Southern Appalachians
by Sharp, 2 volumes in one, 1960 printing, $1 w/reserve (ends Apr-06-03
23:02:12 PDT)        2517621271 - Ozark Folksongs by Randolph/Cohen, 1982, $8.99
(ends Apr-06-03 21:30:00 PDT)        2519182129 - Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman by Doerflinger,
1972 edition, $8.99 (ends Apr-06-03 11:11:20 PDT) A more recent
paperback printing which was on last week's list did not sell. It has
been relisted in auction 3510013023.)        2517763153 - Ballads and Songs From Ohio by Eddy, 1964 edition,
$8.99 (ends Apr-06-03 21:30:00 PDT)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Burk Thumoth's _Twelve Scotch and Twelve Irish Airs for the German
Flute, with Variations_ (1745) contains a a variation set on a tune
he calls "Tho' for Seven Long Years".  It's actually "Bannocks of
Bear Meal", but isn't the set in the _Caledonian Pocket Companion_,
despite Thumoth's title page implying that Oswald had a hand in the
production.Is there a known text for "Bannocks of Bear Meal" with the "seven
long years" phrase in it somewhere?Anyone got any idea why G.F. Graham thought the tune was Irish?=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

Jack Campin wrote:
>
> Burk Thumoth's _Twelve Scotch and Twelve Irish Airs for the German
> Flute, with Variations_ (1745) contains a a variation set on a tune
> he calls "Tho' for Seven Long Years".  It's actually "Bannocks of
> Bear Meal", but isn't the set in the _Caledonian Pocket Companion_,
> despite Thumoth's title page implying that Oswald had a hand in the
> production.
>
> Is there a known text for "Bannocks of Bear Meal" with the "seven
> long years" phrase in it somewhere?
>
> Anyone got any idea why G.F. Graham thought the tune was Irish?
>
> =================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================It's the opening line of a song by Allan Ramsay. I don't have TTM to
give original reference, but it's in the 1725 and 1733 editions of
'Orpheus Caledonius' and SMM #507 (see also the Scots tune index on my
website.)G. F. Graham guessed Irish origin in 'Songs of Scotland', II, p. 115
for "Bannocks of Barley-Meal" (see Kinnegad Slashers in my Irish tune
index), but "Bannocks of Bear-Meal" ('Songs of Scotland', III, p. 122)
isn't the same tune.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Jack Campin wrote:
> >
> >..............
> > Is there a known text for "Bannocks of Bear Meal" with the "seven
> > long years" phrase in it somewhere?
> >>
> It's the opening line of a song by Allan Ramsay. I don't have TTM to
> give original reference, but it's in the 1725 and 1733 editions of
> 'Orpheus Caledonius' and SMM #507 (see also the Scots tune index on my
> website.)
>Whoops, I forgot to give the title of Ramsay's song, "Johnny and Nelly"Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

                                Happy Birthday to you,
                                Happy Birthday to you,
                              Happy Birthday Sam Hinton,
                        Happy Birthday to youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu.A good year, Sam,
AbbyBallad-L member Adam Miller has written a three hundred page biography of
Sam.  I think that's two pages per year.  Pretty small print, too.
Adam Miller, P.O. Box 620754, Woodside, CA  94062
(650) 494-1941 - [unmask] - http://www.lauralind.com-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dear Readers,Speaking of Sam Hinton, one of the songs we learned from Sam is "Jolly Old
Roger:"   He¹s Jolly Old Roger, the tin-maker man
   He lived in a garret in New Amster-dam
   And showered down blessings like rain in the spring
   Oh, maidens and matrons, of him I will sing.   There never was yet, a boy or a man
   Who better could mend a tin kettle or can
   Or bucket or dipper or skimmer or pan
   Than Jolly Old Roger, the tin-maker man
   Chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang,
   Tee-rattle tee, rattle tee, rattle tee, bang.Is this an American song?  Does anyone know anything about its origins?Thanks!Adam Miller
Laura Lind Music
P.O. Box 620754
Woodside, CA  94062
(650)  494-1941
[unmask]
http://www.lauralind.com

I am sending this to four lists I subscribe to.I will be signing off these lists under my present address, hopefully
resubscribing under a new one when I get back from holiday; this
address has now become completely unusable due to spam (about 300 spams
a day, requiring a filter update before every single download) and will
be inactivated in a few days as I change my mail delivery mechanism.
I will then have no way to know what has been sent to the address I'm
writing from now, and I'm not sure if you'll even get a bounce message
if you use it.You can get to me off-list by emailing j-c at this site; that address
will persist indefinitely (the worst I've had sent to it is a few
viruses from friends with regrettable tastes in software).  I won't
be using it for any mailing list, though - it seems that no list is
proof against bozos leaking bits of it out to the web where it can be
spidered for "From:" lines.  (Obscure as it is, the woodenflute list
has been hit that way recently; my "woodenflute" userid, invalidated
a year ago and unused since, has started getting spams over the last
month).Other addresses I use are unaffected by this.

From: Forum for ballad scholars [[unmask]] on behalf of Adam
Miller [[unmask]]
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 2:55 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Jolly Old Roger>Dear Readers,
>
>Speaking of Sam Hinton, one of the songs we learned from Sam is "Jolly Old
>Roger:"
>
>   He¹s Jolly Old Roger, the tin-maker man
>   He lived in a garret in New Amster-dam
>   And showered down blessings like rain in the spring
>   Oh, maidens and matrons, of him I will sing.
     ^
>   There never was yet, a boy or a man
>   Who better could mend a tin kettle or can
>   Or bucket or dipper or skimmer or pan
>   Than Jolly Old Roger, the tin-maker man
>   Chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang,
>   Tee-rattle tee, rattle tee, rattle tee, bang.
>
>Is this an American song?  Does anyone know anything about its origins?
>
>Thanks!I don't recall having this in any book but I did tape Ed McCurdy singing
it at The Second Fret in Philly about 1960.  (I didn't really remember the
text or title but that "chee-wang" bit struck a chord (!) and I found the
tape right away.)Re v.1, l.4, McCurdy sings 'On' instead of 'Oh' which suggests a
suggestive aspect to itHe goes on after the above verses:Now jolly old Roger had two sets of eyes
And his spectacles were uncommon in size;
His nose, like a strawberry, racy and red,
A snuffer by day and a trumpet in bed.Now jolly old Roger could not live all way(s)
An [?] death cut his life chord one day
Down in the cold ground they trampled him in
Poor jolly old Roger, the mender of tin.        Chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang, chee-wang,
        Terattle, terattle, terattle, terbang.That [?] is driving me nuts.  The sound is 'ipersent.'  I looked up
'premature' in my Roget but couldn't find anything similar.McCurdy just gives "from New England" for background and the song, of
course, says "New Amster-dam" which ain't in New England.He sings it in his _Pills To Purge Melancholy_ voice, as it were.Those tradesman/double entendre songs seem pretty rare in America
(notwithstanding "My Husband's a Mason") so this might actually be a
valued song.  What say?-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Thanks, everyone, for all the great information.~ Becky Nankivell

Hi!        I will interrupt my prayers for spring and no more snow to post
the weekly list.        SONGSTERS        3503167149 - Southern and Western Songster, 1835, $9.99 (ends
Mar-02-03 18:12:08 PST)        2511476133 - She Is The Sunshine of Virginia Songster, 1916,
$5.98 (ends Mar-03-03 11:41:21 PST)        2511498353 - 2 books of which one is The American Songster,
1907, $5 (ends Mar-03-03 13:07:50 PST)        2161969677 - Lookout Mountain Songster No. One, $9.99 (ends
Mar-04-03 17:44:32 PST)        2162450361 - Lookout Mountain Songster No. Two, $12.50 (ends
Mar-07-03 09:41:09 PST)        2512540172 - The London Complete Songster or Musical Boquet,
1790, $12.50 w/reserve (ends Mar-10-03 19:18:53 PST)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        3503029974 - A book of Scotish Pasquils, 1568-1715 by Maidment,
1868, 2.95 GBP (ends Mar-02-03 09:08:00 PST)        2510135303 - The Ballad Book by Niles, 1961, $3 (ends Mar-02-03
12:00:00 PST)        3503130841 - The Miner Sings A Collection of Folk-Songs and
Ballads of the Anthracite Miner by LeMon & Korson, 1936, $16.05 (ends
Mar-02-03 15:40:51 PST)        2511349806 - 2 songbooks (Hank Keene's Original Mountain,
Cowboy, Hillbilly and folk Songs and The Vagabonds), 1934 & 1936, $3.99
(ends Mar-02-03 20:44:19 PST)        2511376413 - Sea Shanties, $5 AU (ends Mar-03-03 00:16:31 PST)        3503276159 - Chanteying Aboard American Ships by Harlow, 1962,
$19.95 (ends Mar-03-03 09:58:22 PST)        2511565493 - The Ballad Book by Leach, 1955, $6.80 (ends
Mar-03-03 18:16:48 PST)        2511566075 - Folk Songs Of The Southern Appalachians by Ritchie,
1997 edition, $4.50 (ends Mar-03-03 18:19:13 PST)        3503726249 - A Singer and Her Songs: Almeda Riddle's Book of
Ballads by Abrahams, 1970, $9.99 (ends Mar-03-03 19:35:53 PST)        3503424903 - OUR SINGING COUNTRY BY Lomax & Lomax, 1941, $20.50
(ends Mar-04-03 07:33:21 PST)        2511696596 - SONGS OF THE ROAMING RANGER, 1935, $5 (ends
Mar-04-03 10:26:54 PST)        3503487804 - EARLY BALLADS - ILLUSTRATIVE OF HISTORY TRADITIONS
AND CUSTOMS by Bell, 1864, 9.99 GBP (ends Mar-04-03 13:45:25 PST)        2511886022 - MARITIME FOLK SONGS by Creighton, 1979, $3 (ends
Mar-05-03 03:15:37 PST)        2511067902 - THE CRYSTAL SPRING, ENGLISH FOLK SONGS COLLECTED BY
Cecil Sharp by Karpeles, 1987 edition, 9.50 GBP (ends Mar-05-03 03:36:55
PST)        3503032077 - 2 booklets of Irish Folk and Protest Songs, 1952 &
1965, $7 (ends Mar-05-03 09:16:34 PST)        3503035620 - English & Scottish Popular Ballads by Child, 1965
Dover edition, $499.50 (ends Mar-05-03 09:29:49 PST)        3503633715 - Folklore in the English and Scottish Ballads by
Wimberly, 1965 Dover edition, $3.95 (ends Mar-05-03 09:55:24 PST)        3503705030 - The Folk Songs of North America in the English
Language by Lomax, 1960, $15 (ends Mar-05-03 17:29:45 PST)        2512076684 - Songs of the West by Glass, 1966, $3.99 (ends
Mar-05-03 19:47:21 PST)        2512135238 - AL TRACE:Original Songs, Cowboy Songs Mountain
Ballads, 1940, $3.50 (ends Mar-06-03 06:26:18 PST)        2512201419 - Bradley Kincaid, American Folk Ballads, 1941, $9.95
(ends Mar-06-03 11:11:43 PST)        3503316255 - RELIQUES OF ANCIENT ENGLISH POETRY by Percy, volume
2, 1775, 9.99 GBP (ends Mar-06-03 13:35:30 PST)        2512261420 - Songs of the Southland by Sizemwore, 1947, $3.73
(ends Mar-06-03 14:45:09 PST)        2512474655 - HANK KEENE'S MOUNTAIN, COWBOY, HILL-BILLY AND FOLK
SONGS, 1935, $4.95 (ends Mar-07-03 13:25:02 PST)        2512472449 - 33 PRISON AND MOUNTAIN SONGS FOR HOME FOLKS, 1924,
$4.95 (ends Mar-07-03 13:15:06 PST)        2511772365 - 4 music books of which only one is of interest
(Four American Indian Songs by Cadman), 1909, $3.99 (ends Mar-07-03
15:30:45 PST)        2512538101 - The Songs of Scotland by McKay, 1877, $19 (ends
Mar-07-03 19:07:15 PST)        2512538100 - Sounds of the Lake and Woods, Michigan Folk Songs
by Goodin, 1960, $29.95 (ends Mar-07-03 19:07:15 PST)        3503558866 - THE STORY OF AMERICAN FOLK SONG by Ames, 1960,
$9.95 (ends Mar-07-03 20:01:06 PST)        3503574079 - The OVERLANDER SONGBOOK by Edwards, 1977, $9.99 AU
(ends Mar-07-03 21:39:53 PST)        2914706908 - English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Child, Five
volumes in a three book set, 1962 Cooper Square edition, $300 (ends
Mar-09-03 14:02:27 PST)        3503857787 - LARRY GORMAN THE MAN WHO MADE THE SONGS by Ives,
1964, $17.50 (ends Mar-09-03 14:39:49 PST)        MISCELLANEOUS        2511189622 - THE SWORD DANCES OF NORTHERN ENGLAND Book III by
Sharp, 1912, 4.95 GBP (ends Mar-02-03 12:08:54 PST) This seller has some
other Cecil Sharp dance books on Ebay at the moment.        2161779472 - Revised 1951 edition of above book, $9.95 (ends
Mar-03-03 18:05:16 PST)        3502898875 - Canal Water and Whiskey; Tall Tales From the Erie
Canal Country by Rapp, 1965, $2 (ends Mar-04-03 14:36:47 PST)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Folks:I wonder if the date on this is not wrong:2512472449 - 33 PRISON AND MOUNTAIN SONGS FOR HOME FOLKS, 1924,
$4.95 (ends Mar-07-03 13:15:06 PST)1924 seems early for a country folio -- which would make this all the more
valuable.  However, the title page enlarged reveals a copyright date
of 1932.  Which makes it less valuable, in my mind.Ed

I've seen that folio, Ed, and I'm sure it's not from the '20s.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 03/01/03> Folks:
>
> I wonder if the date on this is not wrong:
>
> 2512472449 - 33 PRISON AND MOUNTAIN SONGS FOR HOME FOLKS, 1924,
> $4.95 (ends Mar-07-03 13:15:06 PST)
>
> 1924 seems early for a country folio -- which would make this all the more
> valuable.  However, the title page enlarged reveals a copyright date
> of 1932.  Which makes it less valuable, in my mind.
>
> Ed
>

At 05:19 PM 3/1/2003 -0500, Dolores Nichols wrote:
>    2511886022 - MARITIME FOLK SONGS by Creighton, 1979, $3 (ends
>Mar-05-03 03:15:37 PST)Please excuse my ignorance, but
does anybody know anything about this book?Thanks.Bill McC

It's a really good set. Over 150 songs from her collection,
transcribed by Kenneth Peacock. Every home should have one. My
partner and I learned The Knight & The Shepherd's Daughter out of it,
and we've been singing it for almost 35 years. No doubt Jamie Moreira
can give you a more scholarly appraisal, but I'll bet it will be just
as enthusiastic.John Robsrts.>At 05:19 PM 3/1/2003 -0500, Dolores Nichols wrote:
>>    2511886022 - MARITIME FOLK SONGS by Creighton, 1979, $3 (ends
>>Mar-05-03 03:15:37 PST)
>
>Please excuse my ignorance, but
>does anybody know anything about this book?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Bill McC

ABE offers seven copies, ranging from $15.00 for a 1972 paperback edition to
$50.00 for a signed First edition (1962)Looks a bargain at up to about $12.00 I'd say.Davewww.collectorsfolk.co.ukwww.holmfirthfestival.comI am not bidding BTW
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Roberts" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2003 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 03/01/03> It's a really good set. Over 150 songs from her collection,
> transcribed by Kenneth Peacock. Every home should have one. My
> partner and I learned The Knight & The Shepherd's Daughter out of it,
> and we've been singing it for almost 35 years. No doubt Jamie Moreira
> can give you a more scholarly appraisal, but I'll bet it will be just
> as enthusiastic.
>
> John Robsrts.
>
>
>
> >At 05:19 PM 3/1/2003 -0500, Dolores Nichols wrote:
> >>    2511886022 - MARITIME FOLK SONGS by Creighton, 1979, $3 (ends
> >>Mar-05-03 03:15:37 PST)
> >
> >Please excuse my ignorance, but
> >does anybody know anything about this book?
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Bill McC
>
>

Bill:I agree with John.  This collection was selected from the field recordings
Creighton made for the National Museum of Canada (prior to 1947) --
largely in Halifax County, Nova Scotia.EdOn Mon, 3 Mar 2003, John Roberts wrote:> It's a really good set. Over 150 songs from her collection,
> transcribed by Kenneth Peacock. Every home should have one. My
> partner and I learned The Knight & The Shepherd's Daughter out of it,
> and we've been singing it for almost 35 years. No doubt Jamie Moreira
> can give you a more scholarly appraisal, but I'll bet it will be just
> as enthusiastic.
>
> John Robsrts.
>
>
>
> >At 05:19 PM 3/1/2003 -0500, Dolores Nichols wrote:
> >>    2511886022 - MARITIME FOLK SONGS by Creighton, 1979, $3 (ends
> >>Mar-05-03 03:15:37 PST)
> >
> >Please excuse my ignorance, but
> >does anybody know anything about this book?
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Bill McC
>

Thanks for the info on the Creichton book.
-- Bill McC

Recordings of TravellersIt's been an excellent season for recordings of Travellers' Songs and
Tales. First, we had Mike Yates Travellers' Tales, volume 1 and 2, on the
Kyloe label. These are songs and tales (mostly songs) by Scottish
Travellers--Stanley Robertson, Duncan Williamson, William Williamson and
Gabrielle Ijdo. $19 each at CAMSCO Music.
 Now Musical Traditions has come out with From Puck to Appleby, Songs of
Irish Travellers in England. It's a 2-CD set , packed in a double DVD
case along with an Excellent 36-page booklet--a trademark of Musical
Traditions. I'm not familiar with the singers, but they're good. Total of
45 tracks from the likes of  Mary Cash, Mikeen McCarthy, Pop's Johnny
Connors, Mary Delanet, Andy Cash, Josie Connors, Bill Cassidy, Jean
"Sauce" Driscoll, Rich' Johnny Connors, Paddy Reilly, and  Bill Bryan.
$25 the set from CAMSCO.
 dick greenhaus
 CAMSCO Music
 28 Powell Street
 Greenwich, CT 06831
 800/548-FOLK (3655)
 [unmask]

Hi Dick!
Are these songs from Jim Carroll and Pat McKenzie's collection?
All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:07 AM
Subject: Blatant semi-commercial announcement> Recordings of Travellers
>
> It's been an excellent season for recordings of Travellers' Songs and
> Tales. First, we had Mike Yates Travellers' Tales, volume 1 and 2, on the
> Kyloe label. These are songs and tales (mostly songs) by Scottish
> Travellers--Stanley Robertson, Duncan Williamson, William Williamson and
> Gabrielle Ijdo. $19 each at CAMSCO Music.
>  Now Musical Traditions has come out with From Puck to Appleby, Songs of
> Irish Travellers in England. It's a 2-CD set , packed in a double DVD
> case along with an Excellent 36-page booklet--a trademark of Musical
> Traditions. I'm not familiar with the singers, but they're good. Total of
> 45 tracks from the likes of  Mary Cash, Mikeen McCarthy, Pop's Johnny
> Connors, Mary Delanet, Andy Cash, Josie Connors, Bill Cassidy, Jean
> "Sauce" Driscoll, Rich' Johnny Connors, Paddy Reilly, and  Bill Bryan.
> $25 the set from CAMSCO.
>  dick greenhaus
>  CAMSCO Music
>  28 Powell Street
>  Greenwich, CT 06831
>  800/548-FOLK (3655)
>  [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi
Yes they are. As I understand it, it includes the material from Early In
the Month of Spring. I should point out that, if you're in the UK, you
can order directly from Musical Traditions. In the Americas, CAMSO
offers a better deal.dickfolkmusic wrote:> Hi Dick!
> Are these songs from Jim Carroll and Pat McKenzie's collection?
> All the best,
> Dan Milner
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 11:07 AM
> Subject: Blatant semi-commercial announcement
>
> > Recordings of Travellers
> >
> > It's been an excellent season for recordings of Travellers' Songs and
> > Tales. First, we had Mike Yates Travellers' Tales, volume 1 and 2, on the
> > Kyloe label. These are songs and tales (mostly songs) by Scottish
> > Travellers--Stanley Robertson, Duncan Williamson, William Williamson and
> > Gabrielle Ijdo. $19 each at CAMSCO Music.
> >  Now Musical Traditions has come out with From Puck to Appleby, Songs of
> > Irish Travellers in England. It's a 2-CD set , packed in a double DVD
> > case along with an Excellent 36-page booklet--a trademark of Musical
> > Traditions. I'm not familiar with the singers, but they're good. Total of
> > 45 tracks from the likes of  Mary Cash, Mikeen McCarthy, Pop's Johnny
> > Connors, Mary Delanet, Andy Cash, Josie Connors, Bill Cassidy, Jean
> > "Sauce" Driscoll, Rich' Johnny Connors, Paddy Reilly, and  Bill Bryan.
> > $25 the set from CAMSCO.
> >  dick greenhaus
> >  CAMSCO Music
> >  28 Powell Street
> >  Greenwich, CT 06831
> >  800/548-FOLK (3655)
> >  [unmask]

> 3503029974 - A book of Scotish Pasquils, 1568-1715 by Maidment,
> 1868, 2.95 GBP (ends Mar-02-03 09:08:00 PST)Did somebody get a bargain on that one?  I'd have bid on it if I'd had
any way to pay.  (As it is, EBay is for people with dollar bank accounts
or credit cards, neither of which I have).=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

On Wed, Mar 05, 2003 at 12:16:38AM +0000, Jack Campin wrote:
>
> > 3503029974 - A book of Scotish Pasquils, 1568-1715 by Maidment,
> > 1868, 2.95 GBP (ends Mar-02-03 09:08:00 PST)
>
> Did somebody get a bargain on that one?  I'd have bid on it if I'd had
> any way to pay.  (As it is, EBay is for people with dollar bank accounts
> or credit cards, neither of which I have).
>Jack,        No one bid on it so the seller has relisted it in auction
3504522979 with an opening price of $3 US. This seller is unusual in
taking only Paypal. Most others will take money orders and/or checks in
payment. Unfortunately, the number who do so but try to push you to
Paypal are increasing. :-(                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

PayPal is a very convenient way to pay internationally, and most eBay
sellers  accept it. PayPal accepts US and Canadian dollars, pounds
sterling, euros and yen, and is available in many countries. I often
buy books from Britain this way, for example.In any event, that particular book was in France, and as you see
below, bidding was in sterling.John Roberts.>> 3503029974 - A book of Scotish Pasquils, 1568-1715 by Maidment,
>> 1868, 2.95 GBP (ends Mar-02-03 09:08:00 PST)
>
>Did somebody get a bargain on that one?  I'd have bid on it if I'd had
>any way to pay.  (As it is, EBay is for people with dollar bank accounts
>or credit cards, neither of which I have).
>
>
>=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

Hi folks:From the Ballads listserv, based in the UK (but international). Enjoy!Peace,
Paul----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Woods <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 3:31 AM
Subject: Vile personsI was just now looking at the on-line proceedings of the Old Bailey, a
wonderfully interesting resource:        http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/...and came upon the case of "Margaret Mears , otherwise Kirby, Jane
Smerk , otherwise Singing Jenny, Catharine Bowyer , theft with
violence: highway robbery, 24 Apr 1745"http://hri.shef.ac.uk/db/bailey/gtrial.jsp?id=t17450424-32&orig=k&s_hil=ball
ad#hilOne of the witnesses in the case makes the remark:"As to these people who appear against her, they are ballad singers,
and vile persons."...making it sound as though the two things go hand in hand!  Who knows
- perhaps they do!  8-)=Best wishes,Paul*************************************************************Paul Woods,
Assistant Librarian, Social Sciences,
Arts & Social Sciences Library,
University of Bristol Information Services,
Tyndall Avenue,
Bristol BS8 1TJ.Tel.:  0117-9288029 (ext.) 8029 (int.)   Fax:  0117-925-5334
E-mail: [unmask]
Home Page:  http://info.bris.ac.uk/~lipw/paulhome.htm"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with
his friends." - Ernest Hemingway************************************************************

For those following the progress of the Licensing Bill today's trial is of
particular interest,http://hri.shef.ac.uk/db/bailey/gtrial.jsp?id=t17150114-26Take a look at the surname of the man who was killed!!!!!DaveThanks for that Paul----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 9:38 AM
Subject: Fw: Vile persons> Hi folks:
>
> From the Ballads listserv, based in the UK (but international). Enjoy!
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Woods <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 3:31 AM
> Subject: Vile persons
>
> I was just now looking at the on-line proceedings of the Old Bailey, a
> wonderfully interesting resource:
>
>         http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/
>
> ...and came upon the case of "Margaret Mears , otherwise Kirby, Jane
> Smerk , otherwise Singing Jenny, Catharine Bowyer , theft with
> violence: highway robbery, 24 Apr 1745"
>
>
>
http://hri.shef.ac.uk/db/bailey/gtrial.jsp?id=t17450424-32&orig=k&s_hil=ball
> ad#hil
>
> One of the witnesses in the case makes the remark:
>
> "As to these people who appear against her, they are ballad singers,
> and vile persons."
>
> ...making it sound as though the two things go hand in hand!  Who knows
> - perhaps they do!  8-)=
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Paul
>
> *************************************************************
>
> Paul Woods,
> Assistant Librarian, Social Sciences,
> Arts & Social Sciences Library,
> University of Bristol Information Services,
> Tyndall Avenue,
> Bristol BS8 1TJ.
>
> Tel.:  0117-9288029 (ext.) 8029 (int.)   Fax:  0117-925-5334
> E-mail: [unmask]
> Home Page:  http://info.bris.ac.uk/~lipw/paulhome.htm
>
> "An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with
> his friends." - Ernest Hemingway
>
> ************************************************************
>
>