As I understand it, memory cards are expensive.  If you want to make a CD
from it, you still need a machine that will cut a CD for you, taking input
from your memory card machine.  You could just keep buying memory cards &
storing the old ones without going to CD, but the cards are expensive
(way more than writeable CDs are).  I did look into this.  Sony just stopped
making Walkman Pro recorders about 6 months ago.  I'm trying to get my D6
fixed (by the local fix-it wizard, so it may have a few tapes left in it
yet).I was told by the local wizard, who puts all their own stuff on DAT (which
they of course can fix machines for even if the manufacturers stop
supporting them), that "mini-discs are now good enough for you" even though
DAT or memory cards are what *they* consider the *real* best.  ("Good enough
for *you*" doesn't exactly sit well with me, but I understand that the
fidelity on minidiscs is now far better than what it used to be.)  I'm
concerned with fidelity & stability here.  And expense.  Not ease of use.
But having a car that came with a radio of supposedly high quality that
is a real b*tch to adjust even when the car is standing still because it
has "few buttons, many uses for them" I can well understand wanting to keep
away from recorders which its easy to give the wrong instructions to in a
pinch.

Fidelity is my concern with minidiscs, too.  so, if I can get a portable CD
recorder whose fidelity would at least be comparable to my DAT, that would
be great.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of ghost
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 3:31 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: field recordersAs I understand it, memory cards are expensive.  If you want to make a CD
from it, you still need a machine that will cut a CD for you, taking input
from your memory card machine.  You could just keep buying memory cards &
storing the old ones without going to CD, but the cards are expensive
(way more than writeable CDs are).  I did look into this.  Sony just stopped
making Walkman Pro recorders about 6 months ago.  I'm trying to get my D6
fixed (by the local fix-it wizard, so it may have a few tapes left in it
yet).I was told by the local wizard, who puts all their own stuff on DAT (which
they of course can fix machines for even if the manufacturers stop
supporting them), that "mini-discs are now good enough for you" even though
DAT or memory cards are what *they* consider the *real* best.  ("Good enough
for *you*" doesn't exactly sit well with me, but I understand that the
fidelity on minidiscs is now far better than what it used to be.)  I'm
concerned with fidelity & stability here.  And expense.  Not ease of use.
But having a car that came with a radio of supposedly high quality that
is a real b*tch to adjust even when the car is standing still because it
has "few buttons, many uses for them" I can well understand wanting to keep
away from recorders which its easy to give the wrong instructions to in a
pinch.

The great thing about minidisc recorders, as compared to tape, even if
you're not interested in editing, is the ability to mark and label
tracks so you can get to them easily later. (A label is text that shows
up on the LCD display.) You can manually insert track marks anywhere so
you can navigate through the recording: you're not tied into pauses in
the sound recorded. You can also take out track marks (which do come up
too frequently sometimes in field recording when the machine puts them
in automatically).If you're transcribing and not necessarily archiving, get an inexpensive
minidisc recorder and try it out.For what they're worth, there are some "field recording" examples on the
Minidisc.org site, under "Cool uses and stories", here:
http://www.minidisc.org/part_stories.html~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, Arizona

I've just had two good DAT machines become unusable, probably because
I damaged the heads with a bad cleaning tape. (If anyone does know a
friendly DAT fix-it wizard I could use one).I decided to replace that system with minidisc, good recording
quality, cheaper than DAT and with definite conveniences. But I'm
stepping in here to say that they can be really awkward to use. On
mine, you Press-click a button and get a menu (Edit, Display, Record
Mode, Play Mode, etc.). Rotate-click to get the next main menu. Or
press-click again to choose that menu and get sub-menu choices.
Rotate-click again to access those. There is a Cancel button which
resets the menus, and I suppose I could eventually learn the menus,
how many clicks and rotations I needed to do the basics, but it would
need more brain power than I could marshall. I would not like to use
this in a situation where I couldn't see what I was doing. It's not
like a cassette machine where you can feel the buttons and tell
whether it's playing back or recording.John Roberts.

Yeah, your mini-disc machine sounds really awkward.  I'll try to dig up the
names of the folks in Texas with whom I signed an extension of my DAT
maintenance agreement.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of John Roberts
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 4:51 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: field recordersI've just had two good DAT machines become unusable, probably because
I damaged the heads with a bad cleaning tape. (If anyone does know a
friendly DAT fix-it wizard I could use one).I decided to replace that system with minidisc, good recording
quality, cheaper than DAT and with definite conveniences. But I'm
stepping in here to say that they can be really awkward to use. On
mine, you Press-click a button and get a menu (Edit, Display, Record
Mode, Play Mode, etc.). Rotate-click to get the next main menu. Or
press-click again to choose that menu and get sub-menu choices.
Rotate-click again to access those. There is a Cancel button which
resets the menus, and I suppose I could eventually learn the menus,
how many clicks and rotations I needed to do the basics, but it would
need more brain power than I could marshall. I would not like to use
this in a situation where I couldn't see what I was doing. It's not
like a cassette machine where you can feel the buttons and tell
whether it's playing back or recording.John Roberts.

On Mon, Jan 27, 2003 at 02:32:50PM -0700, Becky Nankivell wrote:> The great thing about minidisc recorders, as compared to tape, even if
> you're not interested in editing, is the ability to mark and label
> tracks so you can get to them easily later. (A label is text that shows
> up on the LCD display.) You can manually insert track marks anywhere so
> you can navigate through the recording: you're not tied into pauses in
> the sound recorded. You can also take out track marks (which do come up
> too frequently sometimes in field recording when the machine puts them
> in automatically).        All of the above is available on a good DAT recorder, too.  The
main difference is the time that it takes to get to a particular
segment.> If you're transcribing and not necessarily archiving, get an inexpensive
> minidisc recorder and try it out.        Agreed.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

> I decided to replace that system with minidisc, good recording
> quality, cheaper than DAT and with definite conveniences. But I'm
> stepping in here to say that they can be really awkward to use. On
> mine, you Press-click a button and get a menu (Edit, Display, Record
> Mode, Play Mode, etc.). Rotate-click to get the next main menu. Or
> press-click again to choose that menu and get sub-menu choices.
> Rotate-click again to access those. There is a Cancel button which
> resets the menus, and I suppose I could eventually learn the menus,
> how many clicks and rotations I needed to do the basics, but it would
> need more brain power than I could marshall. I would not like to use
> this in a situation where I couldn't see what I was doing. It's not
> like a cassette machine where you can feel the buttons and tell
> whether it's playing back or recording.Geez, sounds worse than a concertina.Peace,
Paul

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Paul Stamler wrote:> > I decided to replace that system with minidisc, good recording
> > quality, cheaper than DAT and with definite conveniences. But I'm
> > stepping in here to say that they can be really awkward to use. On
> > mine, you Press-click a button and get a menu (Edit, Display, Record
> > Mode, Play Mode, etc.). Rotate-click to get the next main menu. Or
> > press-click again to choose that menu and get sub-menu choices.
> > Rotate-click again to access those. There is a Cancel button which
> > resets the menus, and I suppose I could eventually learn the menus,
> > how many clicks and rotations I needed to do the basics, but it would
> > need more brain power than I could marshall. I would not like to use
> > this in a situation where I couldn't see what I was doing. It's not
> > like a cassette machine where you can feel the buttons and tell
> > whether it's playing back or recording.
>
> Geez, sounds worse than a concertina.
>
Nothing is worse than a concertina.  Unless it is a VCR.Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paddy Tutty">>>A drawback with most is that the output is analog not digital...I've been looking at the Sony MZ-N707 (about $170).  The fella at the shop
told me it is a recorder but not a playback machine... that to transfer the
music to a CD, for example, I would need another (larger, more expensive)
machine.  I accept that though it is not smart to make a recorder that
cannot playback as well as it can record (or not playback at all).Is it not possible to put a converter cable into the headphone out jack and
transfer music (through a stereo system, for example) that way?  If yes, I
would assume that output is analog.Another thing... what about microphones?  I've been looking at the Sony
ECM-MS907 (about $80) and the Audio-Technica AT822 (about $240), both stereo
mics with mini-plug cables.  Anyone ever use either?My use would be field/location recordings good enough to use on commercially
available CDs.Thanks for your thoughts.All the best,
Dan Milner

On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:01:11 -0500, folkmusic wrote:>I've been looking at the Sony MZ-N707 (about $170).  The fella at the shop
>told me it is a recorder but not a playback machine... that to transfer the
>music to a CD, for example, I would need another (larger, more expensive)
>machine.  I accept that though it is not smart to make a recorder that
>cannot playback as well as it can record (or not playback at all).Is that a disk or a tape?I got a Sony Walkman "Professional" WM-D3 tape recorder a few years back
and am still very pleased.  It was reckoned to be the best
non-perfessional (in spite of...) tape available.  Non-DAT.  Your MZ may
be similar.  Playback is easy - use head set or just plug it into your
regular amplifier.  (The recorder will have a "line out" hole in it.)With a good unidirectional mike, you can tape a singer across a crowded
room.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

**** With apologies for cross-posting ******The query below was sent to us, and I have a feeling some folks out there
on these two lists may be able to help in various ways.  If you can help,
could  you contact Elaine Heinzman directly.  Thanks!Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
Smithsonian Institution
750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
202 275-1157  voice
[unmask]********************************************************I'm a research assistant for Caitlin Kelly, a New York-based writer who iscurrently at work on a book about women and guns in America, scheduled for
publication late this year.She and I are searching for a historian who would be able to discuss the
history of women and guns in folk songs, particularly such images as
woman-as-outlaw and woman-as-hunter. We're curious to know how the presence
of women and guns in American song has been affected by such societal and
historical changes as the end of the "frontier" era and women working during
World War II. We'd also want to know about academic study of and documented
public response to, if any, lyrics depicting women with guns.If you know of a historian with whom Ms. Kelly and I could speak, we would
be very grateful. Please respond at your earliest convenience, as we are
working on a tight schedule. You can reach me via phone or email, though
email is usually the best way to reach me.Much thanks for your help.Regards,Elaine Heinzman
C: 917-701-1936
[unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: folkmusic <[unmask]>> I've been looking at the Sony MZ-N707 (about $170).  The fella at the shop
> told me it is a recorder but not a playback machine... that to transfer
the
> music to a CD, for example, I would need another (larger, more expensive)
> machine.  I accept that though it is not smart to make a recorder that
> cannot playback as well as it can record (or not playback at all).
>
> Is it not possible to put a converter cable into the headphone out jack
and
> transfer music (through a stereo system, for example) that way?  If yes, I
> would assume that output is analog.Yes, and pretty poor-quality analog at that...you're coming out of a very
low-cost chip, run at a very low idle current to save battery life, and the
sound suffers for it. Much better, if you absolutely must use mini for the
field recording, to find someone with a studio machine and transfer
digitally to a format like CD-R or DAT, thence to be edited later.> Another thing... what about microphones?  I've been looking at the Sony
> ECM-MS907 (about $80) and the Audio-Technica AT822 (about $240), both
stereo
> mics with mini-plug cables.  Anyone ever use either?Neither's professional-quality, although the A-T comes closer. If you're
serious about making field recordings, the first step is to start with a
high-quality signal; it can never be better than what you start with. There
are various high-quality microphones that will do a good job as field units
without phantom power, including the Beyer M160 and M260 ribbon microphones.
They're kinda low-output, but they sound very natural; Ted Levin used them
for his field recordings that resulted in the "Bukhara: Crossroads of Asia"
CD on Smithsonian/Folkways, and it sounds fantastic. You also might look for
a couple of Electro-Voice RE-15s on e-bay (they're discontinued, alas), or
Nakamichi CM-100s (ditto, I think), the latter being condenser microphones
that operate from batteries rather than phantom, and sound remarkably clean
and uncolored. All of these would be used with a stereo bar. Oh, if you're
working with a minidisc recorder, you may have to put an adapter together to
block the pseudo-phantom power present at its microphone inputs.> My use would be field/location recordings good enough to use on
commercially
> available CDs.Granting that many commercially-available CDs sound like crap (including
some that sell millions of copies), if you're serious about recording stuff
for posterity and release, I think you should seriously reconsider the idea
of using minidisc. While it's a lot better than it used to be, it's still
not nearly as clean as a good DAT or CD-R recording, never mind a clean
24-bit recording (which can be done on a good laptop with proper hardware
plugins). There's also the question of cascading bit-reduction; many radio
stations, for example, use bit-reduced links between studio and transmitter,
and the new digital radio systems that are just beginning to roll out are
also bit-reduced. Stack 2 or 3 layers of bit-reduction on top of each other,
as you would be doing if you did your field recordings on minidisc and they
were later broadcast using these technologies, and the results can sound
positively weird.So I'd think seriously about DAT, CD-R or laptop recording. Or find a Nagra
reel-to-reel someplace.Peace,
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:59 AM
Subject: Re: field recorders> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:01:11 -0500, folkmusic wrote:
>
> >I've been looking at the Sony MZ-N707 (about $170).  The fella at the
shop
> >told me it is a recorder but not a playback machine... that to transfer
the
> >music to a CD, for example, I would need another (larger, more expensive)
> >machine.  I accept that though it is not smart to make a recorder that
> >cannot playback as well as it can record (or not playback at all).> Is that a disk or a tape?MiniDisc.

On Tue, Jan 28, 2003 at 12:40:02AM -0600, Paul Stamler wrote:        [ ... ]> > mine, you Press-click a button and get a menu (Edit, Display, Record
> > Mode, Play Mode, etc.). Rotate-click to get the next main menu. Or
> > press-click again to choose that menu and get sub-menu choices.
> > Rotate-click again to access those. There is a Cancel button which
> > resets the menus, and I suppose I could eventually learn the menus,        [ ... ]> Geez, sounds worse than a concertina.        *That* is doing a concertina a severe injustice.  They may have
a lot of buttons, but the function of each remains constant (or on an
Anglo, purely a function of bellows direction).        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: field recorders> think seriously about DAT, CD-R or laptop recording. Or find a Nagra
reel-to-reel someplace.Thank you for a very detailed reply, Paul.  Quite a bit to chew on.  I made
my first recordings on a teak-encased Tandberg reel-to-reel in the early
1960s so the thought of going reel-to-reel is, well, unthinkable!  But I and
a few more would be very interested in hearing about laptop recording.All the best,
Dan Milner

Cc: with phone number to:Elaine Heinzman
C: 917-701-1936
[unmask]        wrote:On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 12:16:50 -0500, Stephanie Smith wrote:>I'm a research assistant for Caitlin Kelly, a New York-based writer who is
>
>currently at work on a book about women and guns in America, scheduled for
>publication late this year.
>
>She and I are searching for a historian who would be able to discuss the
>history of women and guns in folk songs, particularly such images as
>woman-as-outlaw and woman-as-hunter.Great idea.  I hope you will announce publication here.Only vague chance I can think of is the fine Cowboy studies/songs scholar,
Guy Logsdon.  Lately of 4645 S Columbia Ave., Tulsa, OK 74105-5129.If he's no longer there, Judy McCulloh <[unmask]> has been his
publisher and she knows nearly everything, anyway.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Hi-
I can't seen to get your download to work, either with Explorer or Netscape. Is
it possible to E-mail me the zipped copy directly?dick greenhaus
[unmask]"John Mehlberg =^..^=" wrote:> Here is a link to my zipped OCRed version of the 1800 first edition _Merry
> Muses of Caledonia_.    The zipped (116k) file contains two versions of the
> _Merry Muses_ one in HTML and one in Rich Text Format (.rtf).
>
> http://mehlberg.com/1800_merry_muses_of_caledonia.zip
>
> I ask that you please keep the header which I have included if you decide to
> share these files.  Please send any comments or recommendations to me at
> [unmask]
>
> So do any of you guys have any songsters with toasts?   I have more
> songsters that I am willing to share.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> John Mehlberg
> ~
>                 A TOAST
>
> The postman came on the first of May.
> The policeman came the very next day.
> Nine months later, there was hell to pay.
> Who fired the shot, the blue or the gray.
>
> [Bedroom Party Literature ca 1948; Koken 1960; Cray 1965 pg 121 imbedded in
> the song Virgin Sturgeon (sung to "Ruben, Ruben"); Hart 1971. Not used as a
> toast but just as a bawdy ditty; various Usenet groups, etc.;  Need to check
> Cray's 1992 Muse II.]

..To the kisses I have snatched. And vise versa."John Mehlberg =^..^=" wrote:> Here is a link to my zipped OCRed version of the 1800 first edition _Merry
> Muses of Caledonia_.    The zipped (116k) file contains two versions of the
> _Merry Muses_ one in HTML and one in Rich Text Format (.rtf).
>
> http://mehlberg.com/1800_merry_muses_of_caledonia.zip
>
> I ask that you please keep the header which I have included if you decide to
> share these files.  Please send any comments or recommendations to me at
> [unmask]
>
> So do any of you guys have any songsters with toasts?   I have more
> songsters that I am willing to share.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> John Mehlberg
> ~
>                 A TOAST
>
> The postman came on the first of May.
> The policeman came the very next day.
> Nine months later, there was hell to pay.
> Who fired the shot, the blue or the gray.
>
> [Bedroom Party Literature ca 1948; Koken 1960; Cray 1965 pg 121 imbedded in
> the song Virgin Sturgeon (sung to "Ruben, Ruben"); Hart 1971. Not used as a
> toast but just as a bawdy ditty; various Usenet groups, etc.;  Need to check
> Cray's 1992 Muse II.]

Does anyone know who may have recorded this song  -- Corner of Dock and
Holly. I was told that it  falls in the Navy (Navvie) construction trade
songs category but I don't know where to find it or if it is relevant to
the construction trades.I am still working on complying song from the construction trades by
countryThanksGeorgeGeorge Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467
(617) 552-4521
[unmask]

In a message dated 1/30/03 1:01:17 PM, [unmask] writes:>Corner of Dock and
>Holly. I was told that it  falls in the Navy (Navvie) construction trade
>songs category
*****************************
I think this song, as I know it,  is a product of the building trade in
Bellingham, Washington, USA.  One of the verses mentions "Charlie Lynn,"  and
he is said to have been a Scandinavian contractor who built houses, and was
known to have been partial to hiring new immigrants from the Scandinavian
countries.  A Salvation Army worker comes into the version I know, and that
too sounds like what we've heard about the northern Puget Sound vicinity.Here are the words I know, and I think it may have been recorded by Linda
Allen.  I got it from her book, _Rainy Day Song Book_;  you can reach her
through her website at   http://www.lindasongs.com/pages/publications.htm.Down at the corner of Dock and Holly
   Woman come to me and  say
"Will you come and work for Jesus?"
    I say "How much Jesus pay?"She say "He not pay no money!"
    I say "I not work for him:
I go up to the York Addition
    And I work for Charlie Lynn!"The tune is about the same as "Reuben and Rachel."Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

Linda's words in "Washington Songs and Lore" are slightly different from
Sam's; the name she gives is Charley Lind. She dats the song to the 1920's,
and  gives the tune as "Reuben, Reuben".  Phil Thomas in BC collected a
fairly vulgar two-verser to the same tune titled "I ben a Swede from Powell
River" - again, a Scandinavian connection to the region and the tune.Jon Bartlett
----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: Corner of Dock and Holly> In a message dated 1/30/03 1:01:17 PM, [unmask] writes:
>
> >Corner of Dock and
> >Holly. I was told that it  falls in the Navy (Navvie) construction trade
> >songs category
> *****************************
> I think this song, as I know it,  is a product of the building trade in
> Bellingham, Washington, USA.  One of the verses mentions "Charlie Lynn,"
and
> he is said to have been a Scandinavian contractor who built houses, and
was
> known to have been partial to hiring new immigrants from the Scandinavian
> countries.  A Salvation Army worker comes into the version I know, and
that
> too sounds like what we've heard about the northern Puget Sound vicinity.
>
> Here are the words I know, and I think it may have been recorded by Linda
> Allen.  I got it from her book, _Rainy Day Song Book_;  you can reach her
> through her website at   http://www.lindasongs.com/pages/publications.htm.
>
>
> Down at the corner of Dock and Holly
>    Woman come to me and  say
> "Will you come and work for Jesus?"
>     I say "How much Jesus pay?"
>
> She say "He not pay no money!"
>     I say "I not work for him:
> I go up to the York Addition
>     And I work for Charlie Lynn!"
>
> The tune is about the same as "Reuben and Rachel."
>
>
> Sam Hinton
> La Jolla, CA

----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>> I think this song, as I know it,  is a product of the building trade in
> Bellingham, Washington, USA.  One of the verses mentions "Charlie Lynn,"
and
> he is said to have been a Scandinavian contractor who built houses, and
was
> known to have been partial to hiring new immigrants from the Scandinavian
> countries.  A Salvation Army worker comes into the version I know, and
that
> too sounds like what we've heard about the northern Puget Sound vicinity.
>
> Down at the corner of Dock and Holly
>    Woman come to me and  say
> "Will you come and work for Jesus?"
>     I say "How much Jesus pay?"
>
> She say "He not pay no money!"
>     I say "I not work for him:
> I go up to the York Addition
>     And I work for Charlie Lynn!"
>
> The tune is about the same as "Reuben and Rachel."The song Sam remembers is close to one Carl Sandburg used to sing (I don't
think it's in the "Songbag", though). It's called "I'm a Swede from
Minnesota" and (stripped of dialect) it ends:She ask, "Will you work for Jesus"
I ask, "How much Jesus pay?"
She say, "Jesus don't pay nothing"
I say, "I no work today."The ballad index lists the song as "The Swede from North Dakota", as printed
by Glenn Ohrlin. Clearly the song's been around.Peace,
Paul

Oh, and "Ole From Norway", printed in Beck in 1941, begins, again stripped
of dialect,"I just came down from Minnesota
Been in this part about three year..."which is pretty much how "I'm a Swede from Minnesota" begins, too. (It has a
chorus, which "I'm a Swede..." doesn't.) How does "Corner of Dock and Holly"
start?Peace,
Paul

Jon:Okay, so what's the bawdy version?EdOn Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Jon Bartlett wrote:> Linda's words in "Washington Songs and Lore" are slightly different from
> Sam's; the name she gives is Charley Lind. She dats the song to the 1920's,
> and  gives the tune as "Reuben, Reuben".  Phil Thomas in BC collected a
> fairly vulgar two-verser to the same tune titled "I ben a Swede from Powell
> River" - again, a Scandinavian connection to the region and the tune.
>
> Jon Bartlett
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 8:38 PM
> Subject: Re: Corner of Dock and Holly
>
>
> > In a message dated 1/30/03 1:01:17 PM, [unmask] writes:
> >
> > >Corner of Dock and
> > >Holly. I was told that it  falls in the Navy (Navvie) construction trade
> > >songs category
> > *****************************
> > I think this song, as I know it,  is a product of the building trade in
> > Bellingham, Washington, USA.  One of the verses mentions "Charlie Lynn,"
> and
> > he is said to have been a Scandinavian contractor who built houses, and
> was
> > known to have been partial to hiring new immigrants from the Scandinavian
> > countries.  A Salvation Army worker comes into the version I know, and
> that
> > too sounds like what we've heard about the northern Puget Sound vicinity.
> >
> > Here are the words I know, and I think it may have been recorded by Linda
> > Allen.  I got it from her book, _Rainy Day Song Book_;  you can reach her
> > through her website at   http://www.lindasongs.com/pages/publications.htm.
> >
> >
> > Down at the corner of Dock and Holly
> >    Woman come to me and  say
> > "Will you come and work for Jesus?"
> >     I say "How much Jesus pay?"
> >
> > She say "He not pay no money!"
> >     I say "I not work for him:
> > I go up to the York Addition
> >     And I work for Charlie Lynn!"
> >
> > The tune is about the same as "Reuben and Rachel."
> >
> >
> > Sam Hinton
> > La Jolla, CA
>

Hi!        Here I am again! Ebay looks busy this week. :-)        SONGSTERS        2503624829 - Patterson's Ideal Songster, $4 (ends Jan-31-03
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(ends Feb-06-03 15:15:26 PST)        2504599061 - Kerr's "BUCHAN" BOTHY BALLADS, books 1 & 2, 1 GBP
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GBP (ends Feb-09-03 10:15:00 PST)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Thanks  Sam, Jon, Paul and Ed. Now I know where to begin to look for  a recorded
version.
George[unmask] wrote:> In a message dated 1/30/03 1:01:17 PM, [unmask] writes:
>
> >Corner of Dock and
> >Holly. I was told that it  falls in the Navy (Navvie) construction trade
> >songs category
> *****************************
> I think this song, as I know it,  is a product of the building trade in
> Bellingham, Washington, USA.  One of the verses mentions "Charlie Lynn,"  and
> he is said to have been a Scandinavian contractor who built houses, and was
> known to have been partial to hiring new immigrants from the Scandinavian
> countries.  A Salvation Army worker comes into the version I know, and that
> too sounds like what we've heard about the northern Puget Sound vicinity.
>
> Here are the words I know, and I think it may have been recorded by Linda
> Allen.  I got it from her book, _Rainy Day Song Book_;  you can reach her
> through her website at   http://www.lindasongs.com/pages/publications.htm.
>
> Down at the corner of Dock and Holly
>    Woman come to me and  say
> "Will you come and work for Jesus?"
>     I say "How much Jesus pay?"
>
> She say "He not pay no money!"
>     I say "I not work for him:
> I go up to the York Addition
>     And I work for Charlie Lynn!"
>
> The tune is about the same as "Reuben and Rachel."
>
> Sam Hinton
> La Jolla, CA--
George Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467
(617) 552-4521
[unmask]

Hi, Paul --In the 1920s, when I was a boy in Tulsa,  we all knew at least two songs
about Scandinavian immigrants, but neither began with "I'm a Swede from
Minnesota."  One of them was very short, sung to the tune of "Ach Du Lieber
Augustin", and said simply "Ole Ole Olsen, /Yon Yonsen, Con Consen/ Came over
in a boata/ That went to Minnesota."  The other one was a "never-ending"
song, sung to its own tune, in what we thought was a Swedish dialect:    May name iss Yon Yonsen ,
    Ay come from Visconsin,
        Ay vork in the lumberyard there.
    The peoples Ay meet
    As Ay valk on the street
        They ask me vot Aym doing there.
            And aye tell 'em,    May name iss Yon Yonsen"....etc.I remember on one occasion, during a long hike, some of us kids sang that
over and over until the Scoutmaster begged us to stop.  So we obliged him by
telling, in unison, an unending story, until he asked us to stop THAT too!    "They were seated 'round the campfire on  a dark and stormy night, and
Antonio said unto his faithful follower "Wally!  Oh Wally!  Tell us a story!"
 And Wally's story began thusly:    They were seated 'round the campfire.... "  -- etc.
******************************
Another unending recitation was "Why is the Fourth of July?  Because J is the
first, and U is the second, and  L is the third, and Y is the Fourth of July?
 Because J is the first..." --  etc.And another almost-unending song--guaranteed to last until you got
there!--was  sung to the tune of "The Farmer In the Dell":    Said a thousand-leg-ged worm
    As he began to squirm
        "Has anybody seen a leg of mine?
    If it can't be found
    I'll have to hop around
        On the other nine hundred and ninety-nine."    Said a nine hundred and ninety-nine leg-ged worm..."  etc.After the first verse, the scansion is not good, but we managed to squeeze
the numbers in!Sam
La Jolla, CA

On 1/30/03, Paul Stamler wrote:[ .. ]> > The tune is about the same as "Reuben and Rachel."
>
>The song Sam remembers is close to one Carl Sandburg used to sing (I don't
>think it's in the "Songbag", though). It's called "I'm a Swede from
>Minnesota" and (stripped of dialect) it ends:
>
>She ask, "Will you work for Jesus"
>I ask, "How much Jesus pay?"
>She say, "Jesus don't pay nothing"
>I say, "I no work today."
>
>The ballad index lists the song as "The Swede from North Dakota", as printed
>by Glenn Ohrlin. Clearly the song's been around.I have to point out that this song clearly is originally about a
Swede from North Dakota, not Minnesota. Ohrlin's version is heavily
localized (you'd have to live in the Twin Cities to know all the
details) -- and no Minnesotans would say such things about our own
Swedes when there are North Dakotans to pick on. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)"You remind me of a man"
"What man?"
"A Man with a power"
"What power?"
"The power of hoodoo"
"Hoodoo?"
"You do"
"Do what?"
"Remind me of a man..."The things we remember...JR.>Hi, Paul --
>
>In the 1920s, when I was a boy in Tulsa,  we all knew at least two songs
>about Scandinavian immigrants, but neither began with "I'm a Swede from
>Minnesota."  One of them was very short, sung to the tune of "Ach Du Lieber
>Augustin", and said simply "Ole Ole Olsen, /Yon Yonsen, Con Consen/ Came over
>in a boata/ That went to Minnesota."  The other one was a "never-ending"
>song, sung to its own tune, in what we thought was a Swedish dialect:
>
>    May name iss Yon Yonsen ,
>    Ay come from Visconsin,
>        Ay vork in the lumberyard there.
>    The peoples Ay meet
>    As Ay valk on the street
>        They ask me vot Aym doing there.
>            And aye tell 'em,
>
>    May name iss Yon Yonsen"....etc.
>
>I remember on one occasion, during a long hike, some of us kids sang that
>over and over until the Scoutmaster begged us to stop.  So we obliged him by
>telling, in unison, an unending story, until he asked us to stop THAT too!
>
>    "They were seated 'round the campfire on  a dark and stormy night, and
>Antonio said unto his faithful follower "Wally!  Oh Wally!  Tell us a story!"
> And Wally's story began thusly:
>
>    They were seated 'round the campfire.... "  -- etc.
>******************************
>Another unending recitation was "Why is the Fourth of July?  Because J is the
>first, and U is the second, and  L is the third, and Y is the Fourth of July?
> Because J is the first..." --  etc.
>
>And another almost-unending song--guaranteed to last until you got
>there!--was  sung to the tune of "The Farmer In the Dell":
>
>    Said a thousand-leg-ged worm
>    As he began to squirm
>        "Has anybody seen a leg of mine?
>    If it can't be found
>    I'll have to hop around
>        On the other nine hundred and ninety-nine."
>
>    Said a nine hundred and ninety-nine leg-ged worm..."  etc.
>
>After the first verse, the scansion is not good, but we managed to squeeze
>the numbers in!
>
>Sam
>La Jolla, CA

Starting in a very low key:Be kind to your webfooted friends,
For that duck may be somebody's mother,
He lives in the cold and the swamp,
Where the weather's exceedingly domp
You may think that's the end of this song,
Well it is, - but just to prove that I'm a liar
I'll sing this song once again,
Only this time a bit louder and much higher.........Great on buses when touring with morris dancers.....Just to pass the time away of course.........Then there is:A you're adorable,
B you're adorable
C you're adorable too
E you're adorable......I am sure you get the idea........and best done when you have drink taken.Which in my case is only infrequently of course!!Dave----- Original Message -----
From: "John Roberts" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: More Re: Corner of Dock and Holly> OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)
>
> "You remind me of a man"
> "What man?"
> "A Man with a power"
> "What power?"
> "The power of hoodoo"
> "Hoodoo?"
> "You do"
> "Do what?"
> "Remind me of a man..."
>
> The things we remember...
>
> JR.
>
>
>
> >Hi, Paul --
> >
> >In the 1920s, when I was a boy in Tulsa,  we all knew at least two songs
> >about Scandinavian immigrants, but neither began with "I'm a Swede from
> >Minnesota."  One of them was very short, sung to the tune of "Ach Du
Lieber
> >Augustin", and said simply "Ole Ole Olsen, /Yon Yonsen, Con Consen/ Came
over
> >in a boata/ That went to Minnesota."  The other one was a "never-ending"
> >song, sung to its own tune, in what we thought was a Swedish dialect:
> >
> >    May name iss Yon Yonsen ,
> >    Ay come from Visconsin,
> >        Ay vork in the lumberyard there.
> >    The peoples Ay meet
> >    As Ay valk on the street
> >        They ask me vot Aym doing there.
> >            And aye tell 'em,
> >
> >    May name iss Yon Yonsen"....etc.
> >
> >I remember on one occasion, during a long hike, some of us kids sang that
> >over and over until the Scoutmaster begged us to stop.  So we obliged him
by
> >telling, in unison, an unending story, until he asked us to stop THAT
too!
> >
> >    "They were seated 'round the campfire on  a dark and stormy night,
and
> >Antonio said unto his faithful follower "Wally!  Oh Wally!  Tell us a
story!"
> > And Wally's story began thusly:
> >
> >    They were seated 'round the campfire.... "  -- etc.
> >******************************
> >Another unending recitation was "Why is the Fourth of July?  Because J is
the
> >first, and U is the second, and  L is the third, and Y is the Fourth of
July?
> > Because J is the first..." --  etc.
> >
> >And another almost-unending song--guaranteed to last until you got
> >there!--was  sung to the tune of "The Farmer In the Dell":
> >
> >    Said a thousand-leg-ged worm
> >    As he began to squirm
> >        "Has anybody seen a leg of mine?
> >    If it can't be found
> >    I'll have to hop around
> >        On the other nine hundred and ninety-nine."
> >
> >    Said a nine hundred and ninety-nine leg-ged worm..."  etc.
> >
> >After the first verse, the scansion is not good, but we managed to
squeeze
> >the numbers in!
> >
> >Sam
> >La Jolla, CA
>
>

And then there was:"That's tough."
"What's tough."
"Life."
"What's Life?"
"A magazine."
"How much?"
"Ten cents."
"Only got a nickle."
"That's tough."My wife and I still lapse into this one.EdOn Fri, 31 Jan 2003, John Roberts wrote:> OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)
>
> "You remind me of a man"
> "What man?"
> "A Man with a power"
> "What power?"
> "The power of hoodoo"
> "Hoodoo?"
> "You do"
> "Do what?"
> "Remind me of a man..."
>
> The things we remember...
>
> JR.
>
>
>
> >Hi, Paul --
> >
> >In the 1920s, when I was a boy in Tulsa,  we all knew at least two songs
> >about Scandinavian immigrants, but neither began with "I'm a Swede from
> >Minnesota."  One of them was very short, sung to the tune of "Ach Du Lieber
> >Augustin", and said simply "Ole Ole Olsen, /Yon Yonsen, Con Consen/ Came over
> >in a boata/ That went to Minnesota."  The other one was a "never-ending"
> >song, sung to its own tune, in what we thought was a Swedish dialect:
> >
> >    May name iss Yon Yonsen ,
> >    Ay come from Visconsin,
> >        Ay vork in the lumberyard there.
> >    The peoples Ay meet
> >    As Ay valk on the street
> >        They ask me vot Aym doing there.
> >            And aye tell 'em,
> >
> >    May name iss Yon Yonsen"....etc.
> >
> >I remember on one occasion, during a long hike, some of us kids sang that
> >over and over until the Scoutmaster begged us to stop.  So we obliged him by
> >telling, in unison, an unending story, until he asked us to stop THAT too!
> >
> >    "They were seated 'round the campfire on  a dark and stormy night, and
> >Antonio said unto his faithful follower "Wally!  Oh Wally!  Tell us a story!"
> > And Wally's story began thusly:
> >
> >    They were seated 'round the campfire.... "  -- etc.
> >******************************
> >Another unending recitation was "Why is the Fourth of July?  Because J is the
> >first, and U is the second, and  L is the third, and Y is the Fourth of July?
> > Because J is the first..." --  etc.
> >
> >And another almost-unending song--guaranteed to last until you got
> >there!--was  sung to the tune of "The Farmer In the Dell":
> >
> >    Said a thousand-leg-ged worm
> >    As he began to squirm
> >        "Has anybody seen a leg of mine?
> >    If it can't be found
> >    I'll have to hop around
> >        On the other nine hundred and ninety-nine."
> >
> >    Said a nine hundred and ninety-nine leg-ged worm..."  etc.
> >
> >After the first verse, the scansion is not good, but we managed to squeeze
> >the numbers in!
> >
> >Sam
> >La Jolla, CA
>

----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>> The other one was a "never-ending"
> song, sung to its own tune, in what we thought was a Swedish dialect:
>
>     May name iss Yon Yonsen ,
>     Ay come from Visconsin,
>         Ay vork in the lumberyard there.
>     The peoples Ay meet
>     As Ay valk on the street
>         They ask me vot Aym doing there.
>             And aye tell 'em,
>
>     May name iss Yon Yonsen"....etc.
>
> I remember on one occasion, during a long hike, some of us kids sang that
> over and over until the Scoutmaster begged us to stop.I've heard recordings of Carl Sandburg singing that one too.Peace,
Paul

It was Cary Grant in the movie "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer". He was a
suave man-about-town (Art Critic?), caught in a lopsided love triangle with
teen aged Shirley Temple and her older sister (Myrna Loy?), he was trying
to act like a teen, in rolled up slacks and sneakers and a beat up flivver,
talking teen style gibberish. They don't make movies like that anymore!
Kathleen--On Friday, January 31, 2003 10:41 AM -0500 John Roberts
<[unmask]> wrote:> OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)
>
> "You remind me of a man"
> "What man?"
> "A Man with a power"
> "What power?"
> "The power of hoodoo"
> "Hoodoo?"
> "You do"
> "Do what?"
> "Remind me of a man..."
>
> The things we remember...
>
> JR.____________
Kathleen Conery
[unmask]

Thank you so much. I am now visualizing Cary Grant as a cross between
Spencer Tracy & Dean Martin :-) I should have remembered it was he,
but I had no idea of the movie.John.>It was Cary Grant in the movie "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer". He was a
>suave man-about-town (Art Critic?), caught in a lopsided love triangle with
>teen aged Shirley Temple and her older sister (Myrna Loy?), he was trying
>to act like a teen, in rolled up slacks and sneakers and a beat up flivver,
>talking teen style gibberish. They don't make movies like that anymore!
>Kathleen
>
>--On Friday, January 31, 2003 10:41 AM -0500 John Roberts
><[unmask]> wrote:
>
>> OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)
>>
>> "You remind me of a man"
>> "What man?"
>> "A Man with a power"
>> "What power?"
>> "The power of hoodoo"
>> "Hoodoo?"
>> "You do"
>> "Do what?"
>> "Remind me of a man..."
>>
>> The things we remember...
>>
>> JR.
>
>____________
>Kathleen Conery
>[unmask]

Hi folks:I'm trying to trace the provenance of "We Shall Not Be Moved", both the
labor/civil rights movement hymn and the traditional spiritual from which it
was adapted, "I Shall Not Be Moved". The Harry Fox Agency lists a copyright
on "We Shall Not Be Moved" in the name of "Textile Workers", but which
textile workers, where, and when I've been unable to determine. The earliest
recording of which I'm aware (as a labor song) is the Pete Seeger & Chorus
recording on the "Talking Union" LP (Folkways, 1955), but, frustratingly,
Philip Foner's liner notes include information on every song on the album
except that one.The precursor song, "I Shall Not Be Moved", was recorded by Charley Patton
in 1929 and by Thomas A. Dorsey, but I haven't yet found an earlier
instance. It's not in "Slave Songs of the United States", or the Levy or
Duke sheet music collections.So...anyone know of pre-1929 versions, printed or recorded, of "I Shall Not
Be Moved"? And anyone know which group of textile workers adapted it into a
union song?Thanks in advance!Peace,
Paul"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>> "That's tough."
> "What's tough."
> "Life."
> "What's Life?"
> "A magazine."
> "How much?"
> "Ten cents."
> "Only got a nickle."
> "That's tough."From the first 78 in my memory, my age about 3:"'e was the greatest man that England ever knew."
"'oo was?"
"'e was!"
"What's 'is name?"
"Gladstone. William Gladstone."
"What did 'e do?"
"What did 'e do? 'e was the greatest man that England ever knew..."and so on until finally,"What did 'e do? WHAT DID 'E DO?? I'LL BLOODY WELL SHOW YOU WHAT 'E DID!"
[Whap!]
[voice-over] "And that's how fights start in saloons."Peace,
Paul

When we were kids we got a kick out of my father
singing (to "Turkey In the Straw"):Oh, the horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
The horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
Oh, the horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
Ain't this a heck of a so-aw-og.Same song, second verse
Little bit louder, heck of a lot worse.Oh, the horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
(etc.)Linn=====
******************************************************************
Linn S. Schulz
Writing - Editing - Print Design & Production
phone/fax 603-942-7604
Mailing Address: PO Box 4402, Portsmouth, NH 03802  USA******************************************************************__________________________________________________
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The notes to the recent Revenant PATTON set suggest a connection to "Mary Don't
You Weep Don't You Mourn"Dixon, Goodrich and Rye list the following versions:
Rev. James BOATMAN [1937-40]
Rev. Edward W CLAYBORN (The Guitar Evangelist) [21 Jan 1928]
Cottonwood Baptist Church [20 July 1941]
Rev. John R GIPSON (Blind GIPSON) [3 Cot 1940]
Blind Roosevelt and Uaroy GRAVES [20 Sep 1929]
Mount Zion Baptist Quartet [9 Mar 1927]
Oliver and Fannie PHARR [11 July 1941]
Taskiana Four [21 July 1926]
Unknown Convicts, Parchman Farm, MS [April 1936]
Utica Institute Jubilee Singers [4 Mar 1929]Meade, Spottswood and Meade list the following versions:
Frank & James McCRAVY [7 & 13 Dec 1927]
Davis & Nelson [4 March 1929]
Gid TANNER, Fate NORRIS & Mel DUPREE [15 April 1929]
Kentucky Holiness Singers [@ April 1930]
Frank & James McCRAVY [5 Septa 1930]
CAULEY Family & Lake HOWARD [9 Aug 1934]
Dixie Reelers [20 June 1936]Paul Stamler wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> I'm trying to trace the provenance of "We Shall Not Be Moved", both the
> labor/civil rights movement hymn and the traditional spiritual from which it
> was adapted, "I Shall Not Be Moved". The Harry Fox Agency lists a copyright
> on "We Shall Not Be Moved" in the name of "Textile Workers", but which
> textile workers, where, and when I've been unable to determine. The earliest
> recording of which I'm aware (as a labor song) is the Pete Seeger & Chorus
> recording on the "Talking Union" LP (Folkways, 1955), but, frustratingly,
> Philip Foner's liner notes include information on every song on the album
> except that one.
>
> The precursor song, "I Shall Not Be Moved", was recorded by Charley Patton
> in 1929 and by Thomas A. Dorsey, but I haven't yet found an earlier
> instance. It's not in "Slave Songs of the United States", or the Levy or
> Duke sheet music collections.
>
> So...anyone know of pre-1929 versions, printed or recorded, of "I Shall Not
> Be Moved"? And anyone know which group of textile workers adapted it into a
> union song?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
> "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
> the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

Paul:Woody Guthrie's headnote to the song in _Hard-Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit
People_, p. 348, attributes the parody to "strikers at the Rockwood,
Tennessee, hosiery plant in 1938..."  Guthrie probably got his information
from Alan Lomax.Pete Seeger's _The Incomplete Folksinger,_ p. 76, notes "`We Shall Not Be Moved'
is supposed to have come out of one of the organizing drives of the
Southern Tenant Farmers Union in the early thirties.  It was originally,
`Jesus Is My Captain, I Shall Not Be Moved.'"EdOn Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Paul Stamler wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> I'm trying to trace the provenance of "We Shall Not Be Moved", both the
> labor/civil rights movement hymn and the traditional spiritual from which it
> was adapted, "I Shall Not Be Moved". The Harry Fox Agency lists a copyright
> on "We Shall Not Be Moved" in the name of "Textile Workers", but which
> textile workers, where, and when I've been unable to determine. The earliest
> recording of which I'm aware (as a labor song) is the Pete Seeger & Chorus
> recording on the "Talking Union" LP (Folkways, 1955), but, frustratingly,
> Philip Foner's liner notes include information on every song on the album
> except that one.
>
> The precursor song, "I Shall Not Be Moved", was recorded by Charley Patton
> in 1929 and by Thomas A. Dorsey, but I haven't yet found an earlier
> instance. It's not in "Slave Songs of the United States", or the Levy or
> Duke sheet music collections.
>
> So...anyone know of pre-1929 versions, printed or recorded, of "I Shall Not
> Be Moved"? And anyone know which group of textile workers adapted it into a
> union song?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
> "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
> the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
>

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
Dick Greenhous, writes:> ..To the kisses I have snatched. And vise versa.Here's to our wives and our sweethearts!  May they never, never meet!Here's to the girl I love.
I wish that she were nigh.
If drinking beer would bring her here,
I'd drink the damn place dry.No bar too far to drink to you.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  If you don't like the fortune, don't eat the cookie.  :||

Paul--Joe Glazer was an organizer for the Textile Workers Union of America from
1944 to 1950.  In _Labor's Troubadour_, p. 32, he writes:"When textile workers at the Lake Junaluska Institute turned the two hymns
into union songs [`Let the Light of the Lighthouse/Union Shine on Me,' `I
Ain't No Stranger Now'], they may not have realized it but they were
following an old union tradition.  One of the most popular union songs, `We
Shall Not Be Moved,' is a direct descendant of the hymn `I Shall Not Be
Moved.'  This is the original hymn:"Jesus is my captain, I shall not be moved.
Jesus is my captain, I shall not be moved;
Just like a tree that's planted by the water,
I shall not be moved."In 1931, striking coal miners (black and white) in the Kanawha Valley of
West Virginia, changed `I shall not be moved' to `we shall not be moved.'
`Jesus is my captain' became `Frank Keeney is my captain' after the popular
leader of West Virginia coal miners.  Another union song was born."Looks like he would've been at the Lake Junaluska Institute around 1944 or
1945.  The earliest recording of this song by Joe seems to be on a 1956
unnumbered 7" LP, _A Douglas for Me and Other Songs of the New Democratic
Party of Canada_, put out by Woodworth Book Club of Canada.  This reference
in his book doesn't mean that that's when and where the *first* transfer
from hymn to labor song took place, just that that's what he knew to cite.I'd say call Joe up and ask him to fill in that history.  Also Guy and
Candie Carawan.JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL 61820-6903
phone: (217) 244 4681
email: [unmask]
www.press.uillinois.edu

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
John Roberts, writes:> "You remind me of a man"
> "What man?"
> "A Man with a power"
> "What power?"
> "The power of hoodoo"
> "Hoodoo?"
> "You do"
> "Do what?"
> "Remind me of a man...""Spring is coming."
"He is?"
"Not `He is?'; `It is?'."
"It is what?"
"It is coming."
"What is coming?"
"Spring is coming."
"He is?"
...
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  The difference between religion and science is that in  :||
||:  science there are mistakes.                             :||

At 01:03 PM 1/31/2003 -0500, Kathleen Conery wrote:
>It was Cary Grant in the movie "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer". He was a
>suave man-about-town (Art Critic?), caught in a lopsided love triangle with
>teen aged Shirley Temple and her older sister (Myrna Loy?), he was trying
>to act like a teen, in rolled up slacks and sneakers and a beat up flivver,
>talking teen style gibberish. They don't make movies like that anymore!
>Kathleen
>
>--On Friday, January 31, 2003 10:41 AM -0500 John Roberts
><[unmask]> wrote:
>
>>OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)I've thoroughly enjoyed this string, off-subject though it may be.  But I
got lost somewhere.  How did we get talking about old movies?  Did I miss a
posting?  Someone clue me in.-- Bill McC

In a message dated 1/31/03 11:15:20 AM, [unmask] writes:>When we were kids we got a kick out of my father
>singing (to "Turkey In the Straw"):
>
>Oh, the horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
>The horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
>Oh, the horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
>Ain't this a heck of a so-aw-og.
*************************************
Back in the '20s, we sang this as Boy Scouts in Tulsa. only we repeated the
line all four times, then sang it again, dropping the last word, so the
second Time around it was "Oh the horse went around with his foot on the_."
and so on.  The last time, the words were just thought and not said aloud.The "Same song, second verse/a little bit louder and a whole lot worse" was
reserved for a quatrain that went:"Once I had a sweetheart,
    A sweetheart brave and true.
'Her hair was dark and curly
  And her little eyes were blue.Same song...."  etc.Sam
La Jolls, CA

An endless type song my dad sang for us as kids:
"Goodbye horse, goodbye horse."
He was saying goodbye to his horse,
And as he was saying goodbye to his horse...
He was saying goodbye to his horse"Goodbye horse"... etc.Not an endless song, but my favorite of his repertoire:
Sweet Molly O'Grady, garbage man's daughter by birth.
She got tired of living and decided to leave the Earth.
She swallowed a ruler, but dying by inches was hard,
So she went out in the alley, and there she died by the yard.
also:
In the Blue Ridge Mountains of Kentucky
Sat a cow on a railroad track.
She was a nice old cow with eyes so fine,
But a cow can't read a railroad sign.
So she sat on a railroad track,
And a train came and hit her in the back.
In the Blue Ridge Mountains of Kentucky
On the Trail of the Lonesome Spine.He doesn't remember learning these, thinks they could have been scout type
songs. I know of the originals, does anyone know these parodies?
Kathleen--
Kathleen Conery
[unmask]

It was from a post from John Roberts containing an endless verse (You
remind me of a man, What man?...) that was from an old ("old" being a
relative term of course) movie.
Kathleen--On Friday, January 31, 2003 4:52 PM -0500 Bill McCarthy <[unmask]>
wrote:
> I've thoroughly enjoyed this string, off-subject though it may be.  But I
> got lost somewhere.  How did we get talking about old movies?  Did I miss
> a posting?  Someone clue me in.
>
> -- Bill McC> At 01:03 PM 1/31/2003 -0500, Kathleen Conery wrote:
>> It was Cary Grant in the movie "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer".>> --On Friday, January 31, 2003 10:41 AM -0500 John Roberts
>> <[unmask]> wrote:
>>> OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)
>
>--
Kathleen Conery
[unmask]

As kids where we would throw in:
"Second verse, same as the first,
A little bit louder and a little bit worse."
Now I hear my nephews saying something like the same in their children's
doggerel verses/songs. The more things change...Kathleen--On Friday, January 31, 2003 5:59 PM +0000 [unmask] wrote:> The "Same song, second verse/a little bit louder and a whole lot worse"
> was reserved for a quatrain that went:--
Kathleen Conery
[unmask]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:25:24 -0800, Dave Eyre wrote:>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Roberts" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 7:41 AM
>Subject: Re: More Re: Corner of Dock and Holly
>
>
>> OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)
>>
>> "You remind me of a man"
>> "What man?"
>> "A Man with a power"
>> "What power?"
>> "The power of hoodoo"
>> "Hoodoo?"
>> "You do"
>> "Do what?"
>> "Remind me of a man..."
>>
>> The things we remember...
>>
>> JR.
>>
I'm missing a number of original posts.  Didn't get this one, gor example.
I remember this one from the movie:  "Batchelor and the Bobbysoxer" with
Cary Grant.  I believe the responses were Shirley Temple as the
bobbysoxer.  Always love that one.See next post.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

And somewhere along the line, the Party faithful were singing:
"Browder (Earl) is our leader, he must be removed
>Browder (Earl) is our leader, he must be removed
Just like a tree that's standing in the highway
He must be removed!"> From: Judy McCulloh <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/01/31 Fri PM 03:34:28 CST
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: We/I Shall Not Be Moved
>
> Paul--
>
> Joe Glazer was an organizer for the Textile Workers Union of America from
> 1944 to 1950.  In _Labor's Troubadour_, p. 32, he writes:
>
> "When textile workers at the Lake Junaluska Institute turned the two hymns
> into union songs [`Let the Light of the Lighthouse/Union Shine on Me,' `I
> Ain't No Stranger Now'], they may not have realized it but they were
> following an old union tradition.  One of the most popular union songs, `We
> Shall Not Be Moved,' is a direct descendant of the hymn `I Shall Not Be
> Moved.'  This is the original hymn:
>
> "Jesus is my captain, I shall not be moved.
> Jesus is my captain, I shall not be moved;
> Just like a tree that's planted by the water,
> I shall not be moved.
>
> "In 1931, striking coal miners (black and white) in the Kanawha Valley of
> West Virginia, changed `I shall not be moved' to `we shall not be moved.'
> `Jesus is my captain' became `Frank Keeney is my captain' after the popular
> leader of West Virginia coal miners.  Another union song was born."
>
> Looks like he would've been at the Lake Junaluska Institute around 1944 or
> 1945.  The earliest recording of this song by Joe seems to be on a 1956
> unnumbered 7" LP, _A Douglas for Me and Other Songs of the New Democratic
> Party of Canada_, put out by Woodworth Book Club of Canada.  This reference
> in his book doesn't mean that that's when and where the *first* transfer
> from hymn to labor song took place, just that that's what he knew to cite.
>
> I'd say call Joe up and ask him to fill in that history.  Also Guy and
> Candie Carawan.
>
> Judy
>
> Judith McCulloh
> Assistant Director and Executive Editor
> University of Illinois Press
> 1325 South Oak Street
> Champaign, IL 61820-6903
> phone: (217) 244 4681
> email: [unmask]
> www.press.uillinois.edu
>

Has any besides myself noted the similarity in structure of toasts and Yiddish curses?"May you die with an erection so they can't close the lis on your coffin"May you live like a chandelier--you should hang by day and burn by night"
>
> From: Joe Fineman <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/01/31 Fri PM 03:17:54 CST
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 28 Jan 2003 to 30 Jan 2003 (#2003-27)
>
> Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
> Dick Greenhous, writes:
>
> > ..To the kisses I have snatched. And vise versa.
>
> Here's to our wives and our sweethearts!  May they never, never meet!
>
> Here's to the girl I love.
> I wish that she were nigh.
> If drinking beer would bring her here,
> I'd drink the damn place dry.
>
> No bar too far to drink to you.
> --
> ---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
> ||:  If you don't like the fortune, don't eat the cookie.  :||
>

Somewhere along the line, the Party faithful were singing:Browder (Earl) is our leader, he must be removed,
Browder is our leader, he must be removed
JUst like  a tree that's standing in the highway
He must be removed.dick greenhaus
>
> From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
> Date: 2003/01/31 Fri PM 03:00:47 CST
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: We/I Shall Not Be Moved
>
> Paul:
>
> Woody Guthrie's headnote to the song in _Hard-Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit
> People_, p. 348, attributes the parody to "strikers at the Rockwood,
> Tennessee, hosiery plant in 1938..."  Guthrie probably got his information
> from Alan Lomax.
>
> Pete Seeger's _The Incomplete Folksinger,_ p. 76, notes "`We Shall Not Be Moved'
> is supposed to have come out of one of the organizing drives of the
> Southern Tenant Farmers Union in the early thirties.  It was originally,
> `Jesus Is My Captain, I Shall Not Be Moved.'"
>
> Ed
>
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2003, Paul Stamler wrote:
>
> > Hi folks:
> >
> > I'm trying to trace the provenance of "We Shall Not Be Moved", both the
> > labor/civil rights movement hymn and the traditional spiritual from which it
> > was adapted, "I Shall Not Be Moved". The Harry Fox Agency lists a copyright
> > on "We Shall Not Be Moved" in the name of "Textile Workers", but which
> > textile workers, where, and when I've been unable to determine. The earliest
> > recording of which I'm aware (as a labor song) is the Pete Seeger & Chorus
> > recording on the "Talking Union" LP (Folkways, 1955), but, frustratingly,
> > Philip Foner's liner notes include information on every song on the album
> > except that one.
> >
> > The precursor song, "I Shall Not Be Moved", was recorded by Charley Patton
> > in 1929 and by Thomas A. Dorsey, but I haven't yet found an earlier
> > instance. It's not in "Slave Songs of the United States", or the Levy or
> > Duke sheet music collections.
> >
> > So...anyone know of pre-1929 versions, printed or recorded, of "I Shall Not
> > Be Moved"? And anyone know which group of textile workers adapted it into a
> > union song?
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> >
> > Peace,
> > Paul
> >
> > "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
> > the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
> >
>

On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 16:25:24 -0800, Dave Eyre wrote:>Starting in a very low key:
>
>Be kind to your webfooted friends,
>For that duck may be somebody's mother,I don't know if endless songs and circular songs are the same (Maybe
Official Categories 54,281b and 54,281b) but I'ce always got an eye out
for circular songs and recitations such as You Remind Me of a Man.I attach the un edited info I saved from rec.music.folk a few years back.
(Notice contributions from Paul & Sam, etc.)  I'm pleased to have those
just posted here to add to it.========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] (Abby Sale)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:47:11 GMTOn 29 Jul 1996 11:10:22 -0400, [unmask] (TicaG) wrote:>My feeling about this song is that neither is dumb.  But Henry, or
>Georgie, or whomever, is definitely a master, and very crafty about being
>lazy and finding excuses to avoid work.Could be.  Aside from that, my own interest in this has always been the
circular nature of the song.  Aside from "The Everlasting Circle" (the
English version of "Tree in the Hole" with the slightly sexy verses left
in) I think there are _very_ few truely circular songs - those that come
back around to the starting place and theoretically could be sung again.
There are a few small chants that do this but full songs - no.  Very rare,
I think.The religious nature of a "circle of life" is not lost, even in a comic
song.  They have to be very cleverly writen to work out but I think
they're rare in Western (and Jewish & Christian) tradition because of the
extreme statement that life is a circle, not an "upreach." (Not a "cycle"
which would be a wave form - similar highs and lows but always moving
forward - but a true "circle" - back to the same place.)Mostly we use progressive type songs - may begin with the lowest plant
life and progress in the verses upwards, even to God.  This is a clear
statement of the nature of the universe.  We like to think we, and
humanity, are constantly progressing.  Some songs progress downward - "99
Bottles of Beer" or "The Swapping Song" which progresses downward to get
to the place it started.(!)But some religions see a true circle of life.  Or perhaps "over & over
until we get it right."Anyway, that's why I'm always interested to learn of other real circular
songs.  Know any others? ========================================================================Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: Irwin Silber <[unmask]>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:31:58 -0700 (PDT)From: isilberHave you heard "On Ilkley Moor Baht Hat"?  A great circle song.  Alos,
of course, "Where have all the Flowers Gone?"  I assume the original
song being referred to is "There's a Hole in the Bucket."  If not, let
me know so I can supply text.========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] (Robin E. Baylor)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:51:29 -0700In article <APC&[unmask]>, Irwin Silber
<[unmask]> wrote:> From: isilber
>
> Have you heard "On Ilkley Moor Baht Hat"?  A great circle song.  Alos,
> of course, "Where have all the Flowers Gone?"Not to mention, "Found a Peanut" which, properly, goes back over the
3 verses before ending.--
Newlywed Warning: If you can't stand radiated happiness, stand back.
Robin========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] (Abby Sale)
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 11:44:01 GMTOn Wed, 31 Jul 1996 10:31:58 -0700 (PDT), Irwin Silber
<[unmask]> wrote:>Have you heard "On Ilkley Moor Baht Hat"?  A great circle song.  Alos,
>of course, "Where have all the Flowers Gone?"Thanks for the info.  Like a fool, I forgot to look first in Digital
Tradition.  At "Hole in the Bucket" Dick mentions Where Have All the
Flowers Gone and Rattling Bog and John Johnson.  I've never heard of the
latter two, however, and they are not included.Ilkla Moor _is_ great, now that you mention it.  More cyclical than
circular, but that's a petty distinction in this case.========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: Peter Fischman <[unmask]>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 17:21:41 -0400Abby Sale wrote:
> ...
> Anyway, that's why I'm always interested to learn of other real circular
> songs.  Know any others?
>For some reason I never catch the begining of a lot of threads.  Anyway,
"where have all the flowers gone" springs to mind.Best,
        peterf========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] (SLHinton17)
Date: 2 Aug 1996 09:32:05 -0400 Abby Sale wrote:
> ...
> Anyway, that's why I'm always interested to learn of other real circular
> songs.  Know any others?Here's one I learned as a kid in Oklahoma about 1927 or so....
"My name is Yon Yonson, I come from Wisconsin,
     I work in the lumber yard there.
The people I meet as I walk on the street
     They ask me what I'm doing there,
               And I tell 'em,
My name is Yon Yonson -- etc."We also declaimed a circular bit of prose:
"They were seated round the campfire on a dark and stormy night. There
were brigands young and brigands old, and Antonio said unto his faithful
follower: 'Wally! Oh Wally! Tell us a story!' And Wally's story began
thusly: 'They were seated round the campfire on a dark and stormy night, '
etc.  "And don't forget:
"Why is the Fourth of July? Because J is the first, and U is the second,
and L is the third, and Y is the Fourth of July? Because J is the
first...etc."Lots of fun!Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: John Price <[unmask]>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 22:48:10 +0100Learned from my parents; UK; early 1950s) In the form:It was a dark and stormy night.
The skipper said to his mate: "Jack! Tell us a story!"
And he told the following tale -
It was a dark and stormy night.......
--
[unmask]          a.k.a. jOHN of St Albans========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: John Price <[unmask]>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 08:31:46 +0100Here's a tale of Michael Finnigan
He had whiskers on his chinnigan
They grew out and then grew in ag'in
Poor old Michael Finnigan begin ag'in
Here's a tale ....
--
[unmask]          a.k.a. jOHN of St Albans========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] (Dick Wisan)
Date: 4 Aug 96 15:04:49 ESTJohn Price <[unmask]> writes:
> [unmask] (SLHinton17) writes:
>
>>  Abby Sale wrote:
>> > ...
>> > Anyway, that's why I'm always interested to learn of other real circular
>> > songs.  Know any others?
>
That triggered me.   Around the corner,
   And under the tree
   Another camper [boarder, soldier, ...]
   Said to me,
   "Who would marry you?
   I would like to know.
   For every time I look at your face
   It makes me want to go
   Around the corner...Notice that this is purely an oral song.  In writing, the quotation
marks never close, but increase ad infinitum.  They seem to do the
same in:   John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith,    [or Schmidt, if you prefer]
   His name is my name, too.
   And whenever we go out
   You can hear the people shout,
   "Hey! John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith   Da da da da da da da,   John Jacob.. etc.Not recursive, but carefully enumerated, however, is:   Oh, the cow kicked Nelly in the belly in the barn.
   [bis]
   [ter]
   Second verse, same as the first:   Oh, the cow...Since you count the verses as you go, it's not _exactly- the same each
time round.  People who have been in this part of the country, near
Delaware County, New York, will understand why it's a local joke to
sing:  Oh the cow kicked Nell-Hi in the bell-hi in the barn...--
R. N. (Dick) Wisan  - Email: internet [unmask]
                    - Snail: 37 Clinton Street, Oneonta NY 13820, U.S.A.
                    - Just your opinion, please, ma'am: No fax.========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] ( ghost )
Date: 6 Aug 1996 20:46:14 GMT->>>  Abby Sale wrote:
->>> > ...
->>> > Anyway, that's why I'm always interested to learn of other real
circular
->>> > songs.  Know any others?Isn't the whole point of Lal Waterson's "Scarecrow" song that its circular
(that, & the subject matter, of course).
Not trad, yet, of course, but certainly trad-style.========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] (Abby Sale)
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 23:56:48 GMTOn 2 Aug 1996 09:32:05 -0400, [unmask] (SLHinton17) wrote:> Abby Sale wrote:
>> ...
>> Anyway, that's why I'm always interested to learn of other real circular
>> songs.  Know any others?
>
>Here's one I learned as a kid in Oklahoma about 1927 or so....
>"My name is Yon Yonson, I come from Wisconsin,>
>We also declaimed a circular bit of prose:Great.  Thank you, Sam.I hadn't thought of recitations, but I should have.From _The Batchelor and the Bobbysoxer_  Cary Grant?You remind me of a man.
What man?
The man with the power
What power?
The power of hoodoo
Who do?
You do
Do what?
Remind me of a man.And my friends said:That's life!
What's life?
A magazine.
Where do you get it?
Newsstand.
How much does it cost?
10 cents.                            [dates this a bit]
That's a lot of money.
That's life!========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] (Paul J. Stamler)
Date: 5 Aug 1996 22:56:24 -0700OOPS--my finger slipped, and I accidentally posted a reply to Abby's
message containing nothing but his message. Sorry!What I meant to suggest was another recitation, "How Fights Start in
Saloons", by Rudy Vallee. I **dimly** remember it from early childhood
(the 78 broke when I was five or so), but part of it (in slurred speech)
goes something like:What'd he do?
What'd who do?
Him.
Who?
The fella in the picture.
Who's he?
The greatest man that England ever saw.
Oh yeah? What'd he do?[etc. etc. for several rounds, then:]What'd he do? What'd *he* do? <WHAP!> *That's* what he did!
[Sober, declamatory voice-over:] And that's how fights start in saloons.One of the three or four dumbest records ever made, and I loved it.
(Comments unnecessary.) Has *anyone* out there ever heard this bit of
nonsense, and does anyone have the slightest idea where I might find a
copy, or tape, or something???Peace.
Paul [who hasn't thought about this in 35 years]========
Newsgroups: rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: "There's a Hole in The..." - Circle
From: [unmask] (Paul J. Stamler)
Date: 2 Aug 1996 00:18:24 -0700Another circular song: "The Gas Man Cometh" by Michael Flanders and Donald
Swann, from "At the Drop of Another Hat".Peace.
Paul========
To: [unmask]
Subject: Endless recitations
From: [unmask]
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 10:10:54 -0400Thanks for your note. It reminds of yet another, supposed to be done by
two
inebriated gentlemen in a British pub, while looking at a picture of
Gladstone or Lord Nelson or any other well-known Englishman:"'E was just the greatest man that England ever 'ad, 'e was."
""OO was?
"The man in the picture.."
"Wot's 'is name?"
"Gladstun. Gladstun's 'is name."
"Well. wot did 'e do?"
"'E was just the greatest man that England ever 'ad, 'e was."
""OO was?"      etc.....Th "Why is the Fourth of July" recitation has been made into a song, a
round,
by Steven R. Woodbury. It's in Sol Weber's great book ROUNDS GALORE.SAM=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Subject: Re: there's a whole in the bucket
Date: 3 Feb 1999 15:28:26 GMT
From: [unmask] (SLHinton17)
--------
On Tue, Feb 2, 1999 , "jbeals" <[unmask]> asked:>Who wrote There's a Hole in the Bucket?
>Where can I get more info on the song?
>thanks
>Jennifer
***********************
Nobody knows who wrote it;  it's an old traditional song.  The earliest
printing I know about is in _Der Zupfgeigenhansl_. a popular German
sopngbook
of 1911.  It's also in a book of Pennsylvania German ("Dutch") songs
called
_Folk Songs Along the Mahotongo_  (I can't remember the author!)I don't know who first translated it into English, but there is an
interesting
sociological change in the usual translation.  In all the German versions
I've
seen, the woman is the more stupid of the two singers, while in the
English
version, which has been sung in this country in children's camps at least
since
the 1940s, it's the man who is stupid!It's a "circular song", with the last verse bringing you back to the first
verse, so it never ends.  There are several similar songs -- such as:
        "My name is Yon Yonson,
        Ay come from Wisconsin.
                Ay vork in the lumber-yard there.
        The peoples Ay meet
        As Ay valk in the street
                They ask me what Ay'm doing there.
                        And I tell 'em
        My name is Yon Yonson --  etc.And the non-musical circular recitation --                Why is the Fourth of July?
                        Because "J" is the first,
                        And "U" is the second,
                        And "L" is the third,
                And "Y" is Fourth of July.                Because "J" is the first --  etc.OrThey were seated 'round the campfire on a dark and stormy night.  There
brigands young and brigands old, and Antonio said unto his faithful
follower:
"Wally!  Oh Wally!  Tell us a story!"  And Wally's story began thusly:
"They
were seated 'round the campfire on a dark and stormy night.... "   etc.Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Subject: Circular songs (was Re: there's a whole in the bucket)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 14:18:53 +1100
From: [unmask] (Gerry Myerson)
--------There was an old man named Michael Finnegan
He had whiskers on his chin-egan
The wind blew them out and blew them in again
Poor old Michael Finnegan. Begin again.
There was an old man named Michael Finnegan...========================
On 06 Feb 99 18:29:42 GMT, [unmask] (Kay Shapero) wrote:And let's not forget Shari Lewis' theme song!This is the song that never ends
It just goes on and on, my friends,
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was
And now they will be singing it forever just because
This is the...
====================-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

The Bachelor And The Bobbysoxer, with Cary Grant and Shirley Temple from RKO
circa 1947.
I remember it well...
Roy Berkeley
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Roberts" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: More Re: Corner of Dock and Holly> OK, so what was the movie? (Spencer Tracy? Dean Martin?)
>
> "You remind me of a man"
> "What man?"
> "A Man with a power"
> "What power?"
> "The power of hoodoo"
> "Hoodoo?"
> "You do"
> "Do what?"
> "Remind me of a man..."
>
> The things we remember...
>
> JR.
>
>
>
> >Hi, Paul --
> >
> >In the 1920s, when I was a boy in Tulsa,  we all knew at least two songs
> >about Scandinavian immigrants, but neither began with "I'm a Swede from
> >Minnesota."  One of them was very short, sung to the tune of "Ach Du
Lieber
> >Augustin", and said simply "Ole Ole Olsen, /Yon Yonsen, Con Consen/ Came
over
> >in a boata/ That went to Minnesota."  The other one was a "never-ending"
> >song, sung to its own tune, in what we thought was a Swedish dialect:
> >
> >    May name iss Yon Yonsen ,
> >    Ay come from Visconsin,
> >        Ay vork in the lumberyard there.
> >    The peoples Ay meet
> >    As Ay valk on the street
> >        They ask me vot Aym doing there.
> >            And aye tell 'em,
> >
> >    May name iss Yon Yonsen"....etc.
> >
> >I remember on one occasion, during a long hike, some of us kids sang that
> >over and over until the Scoutmaster begged us to stop.  So we obliged him
by
> >telling, in unison, an unending story, until he asked us to stop THAT
too!
> >
> >    "They were seated 'round the campfire on  a dark and stormy night,
and
> >Antonio said unto his faithful follower "Wally!  Oh Wally!  Tell us a
story!"
> > And Wally's story began thusly:
> >
> >    They were seated 'round the campfire.... "  -- etc.
> >******************************
> >Another unending recitation was "Why is the Fourth of July?  Because J is
the
> >first, and U is the second, and  L is the third, and Y is the Fourth of
July?
> > Because J is the first..." --  etc.
> >
> >And another almost-unending song--guaranteed to last until you got
> >there!--was  sung to the tune of "The Farmer In the Dell":
> >
> >    Said a thousand-leg-ged worm
> >    As he began to squirm
> >        "Has anybody seen a leg of mine?
> >    If it can't be found
> >    I'll have to hop around
> >        On the other nine hundred and ninety-nine."
> >
> >    Said a nine hundred and ninety-nine leg-ged worm..."  etc.
> >
> >After the first verse, the scansion is not good, but we managed to
squeeze
> >the numbers in!
> >
> >Sam
> >La Jolla, CA

Sounds like the Jimmie Rodgers recording of "The Soldier's Sweetheart"...
----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2003 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Endless songs (Was Corner of Dock and Holly)> In a message dated 1/31/03 11:15:20 AM, [unmask] writes:
>
> >When we were kids we got a kick out of my father
> >singing (to "Turkey In the Straw"):
> >
> >Oh, the horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
> >The horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
> >Oh, the horse ran around with his foot on the ground.
> >Ain't this a heck of a so-aw-og.
> *************************************
> Back in the '20s, we sang this as Boy Scouts in Tulsa. only we repeated
the
> line all four times, then sang it again, dropping the last word, so the
> second Time around it was "Oh the horse went around with his foot on
the_."
> and so on.  The last time, the words were just thought and not said aloud.
>
> The "Same song, second verse/a little bit louder and a whole lot worse"
was
> reserved for a quatrain that went:
>
> "Once I had a sweetheart,
>     A sweetheart brave and true.
> 'Her hair was dark and curly
>   And her little eyes were blue.
>
> Same song...."  etc.
>
> Sam
> La Jolls, CA

Didn't the Greenbrier boys  Rinzler Herald Yellin version do it on thir first or second Vanguard LP?
Scott Utley
FLUBOOKS
[unmask]-------Original Message-------
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Sent: 01/31/03 01:33 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: We/I Shall Not Be Moved>
> Hi folks:I'm trying to trace the provenance of "We Shall Not Be Moved", both the
labor/civil rights movement hymn and the traditional spiritual from which
it
was adapted, "I Shall Not Be Moved". The Harry Fox Agency lists a
copyright
on "We Shall Not Be Moved" in the name of "Textile Workers", but which
textile workers, where, and when I've been unable to determine. The
earliest
recording of which I'm aware (as a labor song) is the Pete Seeger & Chorus
recording on the "Talking Union" LP (Folkways, 1955), but, frustratingly,
Philip Foner's liner notes include information on every song on the album
except that one.The precursor song, "I Shall Not Be Moved", was recorded by Charley Patton
in 1929 and by Thomas A. Dorsey, but I haven't yet found an earlier
instance. It's not in "Slave Songs of the United States", or the Levy or
Duke sheet music collections.So...anyone know of pre-1929 versions, printed or recorded, of "I Shall
Not
Be Moved"? And anyone know which group of textile workers adapted it into
a
union song?Thanks in advance!Peace,
Paul"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
>

Abby:It was in 1945, after the April publication of the Jacques Duclos article
in the French Communist theoretical journal, "On the Dissolution of the
American Communist Party."Quickly enough, Earl Browder, who had dissolved the American Communist
Party in 1942 in the interests of a united front against fascism, was
expendable.If nothing else, it demonstrated the keen ear the party's senior
leadership lent to Moscow's voice.  Browder was dumped.EdOn Fri, 31 Jan 2003 [unmask] wrote:> And somewhere along the line, the Party faithful were singing:
> "Browder (Earl) is our leader, he must be removed
> >Browder (Earl) is our leader, he must be removed
> Just like a tree that's standing in the highway
> He must be removed!"
>
>
>
>
>
> > From: Judy McCulloh <[unmask]>
> > Date: 2003/01/31 Fri PM 03:34:28 CST
> > To: [unmask]
> > Subject: Re: We/I Shall Not Be Moved
> >
> > Paul--
> >
> > Joe Glazer was an organizer for the Textile Workers Union of America from
> > 1944 to 1950.  In _Labor's Troubadour_, p. 32, he writes:
> >
> > "When textile workers at the Lake Junaluska Institute turned the two hymns
> > into union songs [`Let the Light of the Lighthouse/Union Shine on Me,' `I
> > Ain't No Stranger Now'], they may not have realized it but they were
> > following an old union tradition.  One of the most popular union songs, `We
> > Shall Not Be Moved,' is a direct descendant of the hymn `I Shall Not Be
> > Moved.'  This is the original hymn:
> >
> > "Jesus is my captain, I shall not be moved.
> > Jesus is my captain, I shall not be moved;
> > Just like a tree that's planted by the water,
> > I shall not be moved.
> >
> > "In 1931, striking coal miners (black and white) in the Kanawha Valley of
> > West Virginia, changed `I shall not be moved' to `we shall not be moved.'
> > `Jesus is my captain' became `Frank Keeney is my captain' after the popular
> > leader of West Virginia coal miners.  Another union song was born."
> >
> > Looks like he would've been at the Lake Junaluska Institute around 1944 or
> > 1945.  The earliest recording of this song by Joe seems to be on a 1956
> > unnumbered 7" LP, _A Douglas for Me and Other Songs of the New Democratic
> > Party of Canada_, put out by Woodworth Book Club of Canada.  This reference
> > in his book doesn't mean that that's when and where the *first* transfer
> > from hymn to labor song took place, just that that's what he knew to cite.
> >
> > I'd say call Joe up and ask him to fill in that history.  Also Guy and
> > Candie Carawan.
> >
> > Judy
> >
> > Judith McCulloh
> > Assistant Director and Executive Editor
> > University of Illinois Press
> > 1325 South Oak Street
> > Champaign, IL 61820-6903
> > phone: (217) 244 4681
> > email: [unmask]
> > www.press.uillinois.edu
> >
>

A sentiment is a type of toast which has the form "May you..." and then it
usually goes on to express a *positive* sentiment or wish for a person.  A
curse is a toast that expresses a *negative* sentiment.   I have a
subsection of my toasting collection that is dedicated to curses.   Here is
a 1917 curse/toast with variants:      Here's to the Kaiser, the son of a bitch,
      May his balls drop off with the seven-year itch,
      May his arse be pounded with a lump of leather
      Till his arsehole can whistle "Britannia for Ever."The above curse/toast has recently resurfaced as a curse against Bin Laden:      Osama Bin Laden, you son of a bitch
      May your balls develop a 7 year itch
      May your pecker be twisted in such a manner
      that your asshole whistles the Star Spangled Banner.As you see the "May your..." parts express very negative sentiments.Here is a variant(?) which is imbedded in the song "Cardinals Be Damn":      Oh, here's to ______ ______, boys,
      That Stanford son-of-a-bitch
      I hope he gets the syph and clap
      And dies of the seven-year itch.
      If you use his cock for a fulcrum,
      And suspend his ball in space,
      You can prove by the theory of limits
      That his asshole is his face.This is from the collection of Harry Taussig and sung to the tune "Son of
the Gambolier" according to Cray's _Erotic Muse II_.Ed have you or anyone else heard this used alone and NOT sung?

John:So far as I know, this has only been sung, excoriating the Stanford
football coach, the student body, and/or the coeds.EdOn Fri, 31 Jan 2003, John Mehlberg =^..^= wrote in part:> As you see the "May your..." parts express very negative sentiments.
>
> Here is a variant(?) which is imbedded in the song "Cardinals Be Damn":
>
>       Oh, here's to ______ ______, boys,
>       That Stanford son-of-a-bitch
>       I hope he gets the syph and clap
>       And dies of the seven-year itch.
>       If you use his cock for a fulcrum,
>       And suspend his ball in space,
>       You can prove by the theory of limits
>       That his asshole is his face.
>
> This is from the collection of Harry Taussig and sung to the tune "Son of
> the Gambolier" according to Cray's _Erotic Muse II_.
>
> Ed have you or anyone else heard this used alone and NOT sung?
>

If when you respond you are careful to insert the correct reference in
the subject line, that would help reduce confusion in reading the
wonderful miscellany of threads that often develop (like the ones going
now!). Those who subscribe to the list in digest form will always have
to do so, those who reply to posts from those who haven't fixed it will
perpetuate it. It'll help those who are trying to follow things in the
archives, too. (I get the digest and you can see that topics 2 & 3 below
are not too informative.)~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, ArizonaAutomatic digest processor wrote:> There are 13 messages totalling 565 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics in this special issue:
>
>   1. We/I Shall Not Be Moved (4)
>   2. BALLAD-L Digest - 28 Jan 2003 to 30 Jan 2003 (#2003-27) (2)
>   3. BALLAD-L Digest - 30 Jan 2003 to 31 Jan 2003 - Special issue (#2003-28)
>   4. More Re: Corner  of Dock and Holly (3)
>   5. Endless songs (Was Corner  of Dock and Holly) (3)
> ------------------------------

dick greenhaus:
> Has any besides myself noted the similarity in structure of toasts and
Yiddish curses?See previous post about sentiments and toasts.  I have a larger collection
of *Irish* curses than I have of Yiddish curses.  I have been looking for a
particular issue of Maledicta Journal that has Yiddish curses (with
translations into English).dick greenhaus:
> "May you die with an erection so they can't close the lid on your coffin"I haven't seen this one before.  May I ask where & when you learned this?dick greenhaus:
> May you live like a chandelier--you should hang by day and burn by night"I have a longer version:  "You should be like a chandelier: hang all day,
burn all night, and go out early in the morning."

Hi!        Happy New Year to everyone!!        2151411818 - Lookout Mountain No. One Songster, 1880's, $39.99
(ends Jan-02-03 09:08:14 PST)        932945331 - Mutt and Jeff Songster, 1920's?, $5.99 (ends
Jan-02-03 12:09:51 PST)        750778368 - lincoln johnson campaign songster, 1864, $200 (ends
Jan-02-03 14:30:32 PST)        750800752 - Merchant's Gargling Oil Songster, 1891, $24.99 (ends
Jan-02-03 14:53:54 PST)        934046150 - Temperance Songster, $5 (ends Jan-05-03 08:53:49
PST)        2902539277 - The Irish National Songster, 1890, $55 (ends
Jan-05-03 17:58:53 PST)        752228056 & 752228537 - 2 issues of Musical Salvationist
published by the Salvation Army, 1901, $5 each (end Jan-07-03 15:32:02
PST)        2903696534 - The Barnum and Bailey Greatest Show on Earth
Songster, 1897, $14 (ends Jan-07-03 19:22:50 PST)        The main list will follow later today. Warning - there are a lot
of things which close Jan. 2!                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi!        Happy New Year (again)!        932850262 - The Ballad Book of John Jacob Niles, 1961, $3.99
(ends Jan-02-03 10:04:32 PST)        932850482 - Folksongs of Britain & Ireland by Kennedy, 1975, $7
(ends Jan-02-03 10:04:50 PST)        932851312 - Jean Ritchie's Swapping Song Book, 1964, $3.99 (ends
Jan-02-03 10:06:00 PST)        2902259718 - Ballads and Songs by Belden, 1973, $9 (ends
Jan-02-03 11:40:26 PST)        2902302146 - Song of Robin Hood by Malcolmson, 1947, $2.99 (ends
Jan-02-03 12:44:25 PST)        2902393011 - English Folk-Songs from the Southern Appalachians
by Sharp & Karpeles, 1960 reprint, 2 volumes in one, $61 w/reserve (ends
Jan-02-03 14:49:27 PST)        2151735853 - Cowboy Jamboree Western Songs & Lore by Felton,
1951, $2.99 (ends Jan-02-03 17:42:24 PST)        2902555609 - Irish Minstrelsy, or Bardic Remains by Hardiman,
1831, $500 (ends Jan-02-03 18:16:44 PST)        932716094 - American Ballads and Song by Pound, 1972, $2 (ends
Jan-02-03 18:30:52 PST)        933307779 - Rare Songs in Collections: An Index by De Charms &
Breed, 1967, $28 (ends Jan-02-03 18:57:36 PST)        2903143784 - Lanes Popular Moving Picture Songster, $2 (ends
Jan-02-03 19:33:37 PST) Oops! This should have been on the other list!        2902695783 - English and Scottish Popular Ballads by Sargent &
Kittredge, 1932 edition, $9.95 (ends Jan-02-03 20:43:01 PST)        933432837 - Carson J. Robinson's World's Greatest Collection of
Mountain Ballads and Old Time Songs, 1930, $5.95 (ends Jan-02-03
20:49:21 PST)        2902759616 - Pennsylvania German Secular Folksongs by
Buffington, $9.99 (ends Jan-02-03 21:51:45 PST)        OK - that's everything that ends on Jan. 2. I will shortly post
part 3 which will be the remainder of the songbooks.                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi!        Here I am again! This is the remainder of this week's list.        2902984103 - ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS by Sargent &
Kittredge, 1932, $9 (ends Jan-03-03 20:04:13 PST)        934363914 - Mountain Ballads and Old Time Songs by Kincaid,
1930's, $4.95 (ends Jan-04-03 15:14:19 PST)        2902145301 - FOLK-SONGS and SINGING GAMES by Farnsworth & Sharp,
1900 approx., $9.95 (ends Jan-05-03 08:38:37 PST)        933076994 - Traditional Ballads of Virginia by Davis, 1929,
$39.50 (ends Jan-05-03 14:59:52 PST)        2902474190 - GAELIC SONGS IN NOVA SCOTIA by Creighton & MacLeod,
1964, $9.99 (ends Jan-05-03 16:45:26 PST)        934170169 - The Carter Family No. 3 ALBUM OF SMOKEY MOUNTAIN
BALLADS, 1944, $6 (ends Jan-05-03 17:21:57 PST)        2900059925 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends by Korson, 1949,
$4.99 (ends Jan-05-03 18:00:00 PST)        2903350287 - SONGS ALONG THE MAHANTONGO, Pennsylvania Dutch Folk
Songs by Boyer, Buffington & Yoder, 1951, $16 (ends Jan-05-03 18:58:41
PST)        934337827 - THE KENTUCKY WONDER BEAN - WALTER PETERSON
Sensational Collection of MOUNTAIN BALLADS and OLD TIME SONGS. 1931,
$4.99 (ends Jan-06-03 13:01:35 PST)        2152358536 - Ballads of Great West by Fife, 1970, $5.25 (ends
Jan-06-03 14:49:52 PST)        934396801 - Songs From The Veld by Marais, 1942, $4.99 (ends
Jan-06-03 18:35:30 PST)        2903545795 - WEST VIRGINIA IN SONG AND STORY, 1914, $2.99 (ends
Jan-06-03 19:44:16 PST)        2903312726 - 2 books: Slave Songs Of The United States &
Afro-American Folksongs, $9.99 (ends Jan-08-03 15:34:10 PST)        MISCELLANEOUS        2902335763 - Conchtown USA Bahamian Fisherfolk in Riviera
Florida by Foster, 1991, $9.99 (ends Jan-05-03 13:33:54 PST)        934415498 - Canadian Folk Songs: A Centennial Collection, 9 LP
set with booklet, $9.99 (ends Jan-06-03 20:05:57 PST)                        That's it!! Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Balladeers --As is probably obnoxiously obvious to all of you, I work on the
Ballad Index. And, occasionally, a kind soul comes along and
helps out by indexing a book for me.And, occasionally, we hit a song I can't identify. So far, I've
been bugging the indexer. But it occurs to me: The indexer
is on the list, and so will see a message I send to all of you.
And I might hear what the rest of you have to say.So: The book is Creighton and Senior.The song, entitled, "See This Pretty Little Girl of Mine,"
is on pages 263-264. It's described as a play-party, and it's
described as "another text given from Toronto; known from Sussex,
Scottish highlands, Durban."Unfortunately, I don't know it from that description, and I don't
have personal access to C&S. Anyone know the song? Can you
tell me more, or quote significant lyrics?Thanks in advance.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 1/2/03, [unmask] wrote:[ ... ]>The headnote says that folllowing a CBC broadcast, letters told of it being remembered from Chichester, Sussex, as a schol game in the Scottish Highlnads; and in Darlington, Durham England - the given text was from Mrs Mary K Pellatt, Toronto
>
>It's the marriage game known as Down on the Carpet which begins "King William was King George's son" and C&S refer to "On the Green Carpet," Linnscott p43 and Neely, Tales and songs of Southern Illinois pp199,200.Got it. Plenty of references under the "King X is King Y's son."
Never saw it under the title "See This Pretty Little Girl of Mine,"
though (and have never seen it include that line).Thanks!--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I suppose it's time to confess.
>
> On items of mild interest, on which I would have bid on if other list
> members had not expressed interest, I have refrained.  I guess that
> makes me a less principled person than I would like to beHi John et al.Thanks for that open-hearted confession !! It was similar feelings that
prompted me to raise the issue!!One email to mention some of the things that have come up whilst I have been
away.1. Sniping.I learnt over the holiday period that it is possible to purchase a programme
that will make a last minute bid for you. This is fine except as far as I
can gather it will only make a bid that will go to your own max rather than
"win" it for you. It has worked to my own advantage when selling.2. Pooling/deferring.Whatever it is called it is clearly designed to lower a price for a seller.3. Amateur/professional.I suspect to define these clearly would take a greater mind than mine. I
know some red hot amateurs and some awful professionals in most walks of
life. I guess most people think the same way.An amateur should "always" beat a professional in an auction because the pro
needs to make a profit. How this gives "right" and "wrong" prices seems a
bit contentious to me. I like to pay approx 50% of what I think I can sell a
book for.................(it isn't a secret - most book dealers work that
way and anyway my prices are on the web for all to see). If I have a
customer I know will buy a book then I can often go a lot
higher..................satisfied with a much smaller margin. So, the prices
I can pay vary too.I suspect I will do what I have always done and go my own way. I may even
have some private correspondence with people on the list occasionally!! And
I really am most grateful for everyone's detailed and thought-provoking
comments. Thank you all.Dave
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: Ebay auction> >As a matter of principle, I stopped participating in such agreements.
>
> .
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>
>

E-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: H-Net List for Canadian History [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Alan Gordon H-Canada Editor
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 7:42 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Netsource: Helen Creighton Fonds Multi-Media Web PageFrom: Lois Yorke <[unmask]>Helen Creighton fondsNova Scotia Archives and Records Management is pleased to announce the
launch of a multi-media web page celebrating the life and career of
Helen Creighton (1899-1989).http://www.gov.ns.ca/nsarm/virtual/creighton/Remembered as one of Canada’s best-known folklorists, Dr. Creighton was
a pioneer researcher, collector and author whose career spanned sixty
years, and whose reputation in the field is international. The prolific
results of that career--textual records, photographs, sound recordings
and moving images--are contained in Dr. Creighton’s personal papers.
Held by Nova Scotia Archives and Records Management, this collection is
one of Nova Scotia’s most significant cultural heritage resources.Dr. Creighton’s professional interests ranged broadly and deeply across
Maritime folklore and history, including extensive work within the
Gaelic, Acadian, Mi’kmaq, English, German and African-Nova Scotian
traditions. The archival record which she accumulated is rich in folk
songs and ancient ballads, folk tales, dances, games, cures, proverbs,
children’s folklore--and, of course, the subject area for which she is
perhaps best known, namely the world of the supernatural--ghosts,
superstitions, witchcraft and buried treasure.As an online resource, the web page leads to descriptions and content
listings for the Helen Creighton fonds, and will thus introduce new
audiences near and far to the results of her life’s work. A highlight of
the web page is a Virtual Exhibit, featuring over 50 photographs, sound
clips and online documents, including early folk-song recordings and
first-hand accounts of the supernatural.NSARM gratefully acknowledges financial assistance from the Helen
Creighton Folklore Society in the creation of this website.For further information, contact:Lois YorkeManager, Public ServicesNova Scotia Archives and Records ManagementPh. 902-424-6068E-Mail.  [unmask]

Hi!        I will post the main list probably tomorrow. Meanwhile, there
are two items about to close which I would like to point out. They may
be of interest to someone.        934747159 - Kentucky Mountain Folk Songs by Wheeler, 1937, $9.49
(ends Jan-06-03 18:01:47 PST)        934760478 - FOLKSONGS OF THE SPANISH CALIFORNIANS by McCoy,
1925, $14.99 (ends Jan-06-03 19:04:18 PST)                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
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In the 1950s I learned King William was King Jameses son, upon the royal
race he run etc from Charlie Graves of Sunderland Vermont, recording it in
1962 on Folkways Folksongs of Vermont.

Folks:As I am sure you know during the 1930s, the WPA Writers Project put
literally hundreds of people into the field collecting folklore.  Some of
their work, despite the fact they were amateurs as folklorists, was truly
brilliant, most particularly the autobiographies of ex-slaves later edited
by Ben Botkin into _Lay My Burden Down_.  Some of that WPA collectanea was
published in a couple of mimeographed booklets; some of the Florida stuff
was reprinted because it was collected by Zora Neale Hurston.Has anyone every tried to locate all of the WPA-sponsored collectanea,
state by state?  (I know Bruce Rosenberg published a Virginia finding
list.)  Some is to be found in state libraries, some in university
libraries; most states are unaccounted for.This query is prompted by an obituary published in _The New York Times_ on
February 13, 1965, of a blacklisted filmwriter, Arnold Manoff.  It notes
that "in the nineteen-thirties he belonged to a Works Progress
Administration writers' project and helped to assemble a collection of
games and songs of the streets of New York."First, can anyone advise where this New York collection resides?  What
other New York collections were there?Second, can anyone advise the whereabouts of other state collections?Ed

On Mon, Jan 06, 2003 at 05:13:14PM -0800, Ed Cray wrote:
> Has anyone every tried to locate all of the WPA-sponsored collectanea,
> state by state?  (I know Bruce Rosenberg published a Virginia finding
> list.)  Some is to be found in state libraries, some in university
> libraries; most states are unaccounted for.        Chuck Perdue (last seen being a professor at University of Virginia)
published a further selection from the WPA Virginia slave narratives,
and he and his wife Nan had some tales to tell about the records they
found.  Without searching my shelves, I can't say much more.
        Is someone from the Folklife Center a reader or lurker on this list?
Meseems I'd ask around there first. -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360
*** FRIENDS: If your Reply message is Rejected by my spam-fighting ISP,
please try sending it to: [unmask] OR [unmask]

Hi!        Here is part 1 of this week's list.        2903696534 - Greatest Show on Earth Songster, 1897, $14 (ends
Jan-07-03 19:22:50 PST)        2152590545 - Buffalo Bill's Wild West Songster, 1899, $75 (ends
Jan-08-03 21:26:41 PST)        2904086976 - The Campaign Lives of ULYSSES S. GRANT, and
SCHUYLER COLFAX. inc. THE GRANT AND COLFAX CAMPAIGN SONGSTER, 1868,
$4.95 (ends Jan-09-03 19:35:29 PST)        935475213 - Merchants Gargling Oil Songster, 1887, $5 (ends
Jan-11-03 18:23:43 PST)        2153124190 - 2 songsters from 1880's, $4.99 (ends Jan-15-03
21:45:04 PST)                The main list will be posted tomorrow.Now back to finding a way to magically remove all the snow from the
driveway without shoveling. :-(                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
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Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

    You might also wish to try various state historical societies. I know that
the Pennsylvania Historical Society published more than one volume in
conjunction with the WPA during 1941. Though the volumes I have seen are not
folk music oriented [the volume I own is an inventory of Quaker records] I
would think this practice was not unique as to subject matter or location.

Glad to see the WPA Writers Project brought to the forefront -- what a
wealth of material the Depression produced!  I can confirm that the
American Folklife Center (in its earlier incarnations) was the repository
for a large amount of (though not all) WPA folklore material. When I worked
as an intern there (1975), loads of material was still in filing cabinets,
relatively untouched. I remember seeing photographs of Greek sponge divers
in Tarpon Springs, a Yiddish manuscript on life in New York, and lots of
correspondence -- although it was trivial in one sense, it gave a real feel
for the project itself. As my own very modest contribution to preservation,
I did up a card index for the WPA material from Washington State, which
included things like an account of the 'Chinese riots' of 1886, a list of
'musical expressions and definitions', and descriptions of various ethnic
enclaves in the state. Most of this is pretty brief and not necessarily
systematic or well-documented, but I think there is loads of WPA material
which is well worth exploring.A lot has happened since my days in the Archive, so definitely the people
to contact are in the Folklife Center -- I'm sure they can offer the latest
indexes and information on what's available and where. It would be
worthwhile!Happy hunting,Jeff Kallen
Trinity College Dublin