On Sat, Dec 28, 2002 at 10:54:26AM -0500, Abby Sale wrote:        [ ... ]> On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:08:06 -0600, [unmask] wrote:
>
> >One final thought; when participating in any auction, always
> >predetermine your absolute maximum price, and stick to it.  Too
> >many people have gotten wrapped up in the excitement of bidding
> >an ended up paying far more for an item than they would have in a
> >shop.
>
> Any notes on whether the fixed pre-auction offer price "Buy-it-now"
> compares well with the final sale price typically?        I think that varies on a case-by-case basis.> Obviously, it all depends but I've several times picked up something there
> when I knew I'd have little time to sit on the auction and the price
> seemed low and reasonable compared to used book dealers.        If you *really* want something, and are willing to spend what
the Buy-it-now price is set to -- go for it.        If you would be willing to pay less, but not the buy-it-now
price, prudence suggests placing a minimal bid at the start to clear the
buy-it-now option so others won't use it to get the item before closing,
and then hope that the eventual price does not go above your personal
threshold.  (Note that it does have to meet reserve to clear the
buy-it-now option, and sometimes reserve is set not much below the
buy-it-now price.        I have done this bidding low to clear buy-it-now at times, when
I wanted the item, but did not want to start out by committing myself to
the buy-it-now price, and wound up paying a bit more than the buy-it-now
price.  Other times, I have wound up with the item for the starting
price or little more.        I have also seen auctions for many identical items (e.g. pairs a
particular style of hydraulic coupling, if anyone cares), where someone
had gone through and bid the minimum on every one of the auctions, and
eventually got just one.  I wound up bidding on one of the later ones,
and later found that he had listed more of the item with a fresh
buy-it-now price which would have saved me a couple of dollars.  I'm
sure that the seller was happy, since all of that first batch sold for
more than the original buy-it-now. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

>As a matter of principle, I stopped participating in such agreements.I suppose it's time to confess.On items of mild interest, on which I would have bid on if other list
members had not expressed interest, I have refrained.  I guess that
makes me a less principled person than I would like to be.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hello, all.  Just a reminder that on BBC Radio 4, in less than a half-hour,
the series on the British Music Hall continues.  Today's episode focuses on
the rise of the music hall superstars like Marie Lloyd and includes accounts
of perceived exploitation and job actions.  Anyhow, that's BBC Radio 4 in
mere moments!        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

Hi folks:If you haven't discovered this website yet, you should check it out:http://www.pipeline.com/~everyman/writings/etiquette.htmlThe writer has recast the works of Francis James Child as an advice column;
Glenlogie, meet Dear Abby. The results are truly warped.Peace,
Paul"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dear Dr. Child,Please answer as quickly as you can. I am in danger of drowning and I
find myself in a difficult ethical dilemma.  I entered into a
contractual arrangement with my employer (a sea captain of the Golden
Vanity) and now find, after performing my end of the bargain (swimming
to an enemy ship and drilling nine holes in her side), that he refuses
to go ahead with his agreement.  Since I am perilously close to going
down for the last time, recourse to a court of law is unavailable as a
remedy.  Should I "do unto her as I have done to them" and thereby take
my revenge upon my employer or should I not do anything - and simply
drown - because of my desire not to hurt my comrades, who were innocent
of any wrongdoing.  Please let me know as soon as possible.  I have a
portable fax machine with me so I'd appreciate an answer quickly.(Signed). Cabin boy.Dear Cabin Boy,Unfortunately there is very little I can tell you.  You seem a decent
sort, so I'm sure you know the right thing to do.  You perhaps could
have structured the agreement with your employer differently, but I am
sure that you are not interested at this time in post mortems.Regretfully but respectfully,Francis Child.>>> [unmask] 12/31/02 01:20PM >>>
Hi folks:If you haven't discovered this website yet, you should check it out:http://www.pipeline.com/~everyman/writings/etiquette.htmlThe writer has recast the works of Francis James Child as an advice
column;
Glenlogie, meet Dear Abby. The results are truly warped.Peace,
Paul"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can
change
the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret
Mead

I found a reference in Jackson's _Spiritual Folksongs_ to the title verse of
MOCS; he refers to "In Old Virginny" in Sharp _English Folksongs from the
Southern Appalachians_, vol. 2 p.232-234.  Is there a kind list member out
there with a copy of Sharp handy who could check on this?Many thanks in advance,Dave Gardner

On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:35:02 -0600, kaiser wrote:>I found a reference in Jackson's _Spiritual Folksongs_ to the title verse of
>MOCS; he refers to "In Old Virginny" in Sharp _English Folksongs from the
>Southern Appalachians_, vol. 2 p.232-234.  Is there a kind list member out
>there with a copy of Sharp handy who could check on this?
>Yep.A
I was born in old Virginny,
South Carolina I did go,
Courted there a fair young lady,
O her name I do not know.C
I am a man of constant sorrow,
I have seen trouble all my days.
I'll bid farewell to old Virginia,
The place where I was partly raised.Tune seems right.
Sharp gives no notes on it.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dave:Yes, the "C" version of "In Old Virginny" as printed in Sharp-Karpeles,
II, p. 233-34, has this opening stanza:I am a man of constant sorrow,
I have seen troubles all my days.
I'll bid farewell to old Virginia,
The place where I was partly raised.EdOn Sun, 1 Dec 2002, kaiser wrote:> I found a reference in Jackson's _Spiritual Folksongs_ to the title verse of
> MOCS; he refers to "In Old Virginny" in Sharp _English Folksongs from the
> Southern Appalachians_, vol. 2 p.232-234.  Is there a kind list member out
> there with a copy of Sharp handy who could check on this?
>
> Many thanks in advance,
>
> Dave Gardner
>

Thanks to Ed and Fred for the answer!DG----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Man of Constant...question> Dave:
>
> Yes, the "C" version of "In Old Virginny" as printed in Sharp-Karpeles,
> II, p. 233-34, has this opening stanza:
>
> I am a man of constant sorrow,
> I have seen troubles all my days.
> I'll bid farewell to old Virginia,
> The place where I was partly raised.
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Dec 2002, kaiser wrote:
>
> > I found a reference in Jackson's _Spiritual Folksongs_ to the title
verse of
> > MOCS; he refers to "In Old Virginny" in Sharp _English Folksongs from
the
> > Southern Appalachians_, vol. 2 p.232-234.  Is there a kind list member
out
> > there with a copy of Sharp handy who could check on this?
> >
> > Many thanks in advance,
> >
> > Dave Gardner
> >

Dave:An early riser, Abby was first.EdOn Sun, 1 Dec 2002, kaiser wrote:> Thanks to Ed and Fred for the answer!
>
> DG
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Man of Constant...question
>
>
> > Dave:
> >
> > Yes, the "C" version of "In Old Virginny" as printed in Sharp-Karpeles,
> > II, p. 233-34, has this opening stanza:
> >
> > I am a man of constant sorrow,
> > I have seen troubles all my days.
> > I'll bid farewell to old Virginia,
> > The place where I was partly raised.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 1 Dec 2002, kaiser wrote:
> >
> > > I found a reference in Jackson's _Spiritual Folksongs_ to the title
> verse of
> > > MOCS; he refers to "In Old Virginny" in Sharp _English Folksongs from
> the
> > > Southern Appalachians_, vol. 2 p.232-234.  Is there a kind list member
> out
> > > there with a copy of Sharp handy who could check on this?
> > >
> > > Many thanks in advance,
> > >
> > > Dave Gardner
> > >
>

On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:09:43 -0800, Ed Cray wrote:>An early riser, Abby was first.Early to rise and early to bed
Makes a man health, wealthy and dead.James Thurber-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Hi folks:Anyone got an Earliest Date citation for "How Dry I Am?" So far 1939 is as
far back as I've gotten, but I'm morally certain it's older.Thanks in advance!Peace,
Paul(perhaps "morally certain" isn't the best phrase)

Paul:Clifford Leach, _Bottoms Up! (NYC: Paull-Pioneer Music Corproation, 1933),
p. 14, has this under the title "How Dry I am":How dry I am!  How dry I am!
Nobody knows how dry I am.EdOn Tue, 3 Dec 2002, Paul Stamler wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> Anyone got an Earliest Date citation for "How Dry I Am?" So far 1939 is as
> far back as I've gotten, but I'm morally certain it's older.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
> (perhaps "morally certain" isn't the best phrase)
>

Paul,According to Lax & Smith's _Great Song Thesaurus_, it was two years into Prohibition.  They give they following info:"1921, w. Phillip Dodridge, m. Edward F. Rimbault.  This adaptation of 1921is based originally on the traditional hymn "Oh Happy Day" of 1855."Cheers
Jamie

Sorry to bother the list with this - I'm looking for a current
address for Adam McNaughtan, author of such balladic epics as "Oor
Hamlet"; and I thought the membership here would be a likely source.
Please contact me offlist if you can help.Thanks,
John Roberts
[unmask]

Hi!        I hope that everyone has recovered from all that food at
Thanksgiving (w/o too much left over). Here is the latest list.        SONGSTERS        741964440 - The Red, White and Blue Songster for Soldiers,
Sailors and Marines, undated (WWI?), $7 (ends Dec-05-02 18:52:02 PST)        742389634 - ROYAL VICTORIA SONGSTER, 7.50 GBP (ends Dec-07-02
02:36:07 PST)        1975623992 - Eolian Songster, 1852, $9.99 (ends Dec-10-02
09:13:13 PST)        926579775 - THE AMERICAN SONGSTER, 1836, $24.99 w/reserve (ends
Dec-10-02 14:57:05 PST)        SONGBOOKS        741483256 - famous Negro Spirituals, Frey, 1924, $29.99 (ends
Dec-04-02 13:56:11 PST)        742217175 - Lot of 3 books of which 2 are of interest (Kentucky
Mountain Folk-Songs by Wheeler & Kentucky Mountain Songs by Niles), 1937
& 1928, $10.99 (ends Dec-04-02 15:15:06 PST)        925837189 - 2 books (Folk Ballads and songs of the Lower
Labrador Coast by Leach & Songs of the Newfoundland Outports volume 2 by
Peacock), 1965, $8.50 (ends Dec-04-02 15:31:10 PST)        1974800356 - AMERICAN SEA SONGS & CHANTEYS, Shay, 1948, $7 (ends
Dec-05-02 10:01:14 PST)        1975249168 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends, Korson, 1949, $7.50
(ends Dec-06-02 11:40:45 PST)        926375609 - Singin' In the Saddle, Sherwin, 1944, $4.99 (ends
Dec-06-02 18:01:11 PST)        1975546017 - The Second Book of Irish Ballads, Healy, 1964, 2
GBP (ends Dec-07-02 04:21:22 PST)        926507866 - The Shanty Book Part 1, Terry, 1921, 10.50 GBP (ends
Dec-07-02 10:12:06 PST)        926617103 - Ballad Makin' In The Mountains of Kentucky, Thomas,
$4.44 (ends Dec-07-02 17:45:06 PST)        925882986 - Wit and Mirth: or Pills to Purge Melancholy,
D'Urfey, 1876? printing, $98 w/reserve (ends Dec-07-02 18:46:30 PST)        925914577 - Weep Some More, My Lady, Spaeth, 1927, $9.99 (ends
Dec-07-02 20:36:49 PST)        925993667 - In the Pine Selected Kentucky Folk Songs, Roberts &
Agey, 1978, $14.99 (ends Dec-08-02 07:51:30 PST)        926790039 - Mountain Ballads, Kincaid, 1936, $9.95 (ends
Dec-08-02 10:46:40 PST)        1970835350 - The Merry Muses of Caledonia, Burns, 1959 printing,
$9.99 (ends Dec-10-02 18:04:00 PST)        738412759 - Kansas Folklore, Sackett & Koch, 1961, $9.99 (ends
Dec-10-02 18:08:00 PST)        1976244880 - Maritime Folk Songs, Creighton, 1962, $8 (ends
Dec-11-02 12:59:10 PST)        That's it for this week. Now to go find our snow shovel. :-(                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Many thanks to those who replied. I now have the information I need.John Roberts.

On 12/3/02, Dolores Nichols wrote:[ ... ]>        1975249168 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends, Korson, 1949, $7.50
>(ends Dec-06-02 11:40:45 PST)[ ... ]>        926617103 - Ballad Makin' In The Mountains of Kentucky, Thomas,
>$4.44 (ends Dec-07-02 17:45:06 PST)I have some interest in these two, particularly Thomas. Anyone
else planning to go after them?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Yes, I has my eye on the Thomas. Jon Bartlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: Ebay List - 12/03/02> On 12/3/02, Dolores Nichols wrote:
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >        1975249168 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends, Korson, 1949, $7.50
> >(ends Dec-06-02 11:40:45 PST)
>
> [ ... ]
>
> >        926617103 - Ballad Makin' In The Mountains of Kentucky, Thomas,
> >$4.44 (ends Dec-07-02 17:45:06 PST)
>
> I have some interest in these two, particularly Thomas. Anyone
> else planning to go after them?
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."

On 12/3/02, Jon Bartlett wrote:>Yes, I has my eye on the Thomas. Jon Bartlett
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:34 PM
>Subject: Re: Ebay List - 12/03/02
>
>
>> On 12/3/02, Dolores Nichols wrote:
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> >        1975249168 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends, Korson, 1949, $7.50
>> >(ends Dec-06-02 11:40:45 PST)
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> >        926617103 - Ballad Makin' In The Mountains of Kentucky, Thomas,
>> >$4.44 (ends Dec-07-02 17:45:06 PST)
>>
>> I have some interest in these two, particularly Thomas. Anyone
> > else planning to go after them?All right, I'll devote my efforts to Korson. Or is someone else
after that?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

My late father, who attended Univ of Virginia, Yale and Cornell
(undergraduate and law student) in the 1920's knew it well, and used to sing
it to me when I was little -- in fact, he might have learned it at the
secondary school he attended in Virginia around the time of WWI.  I am quite
sure it goes back a *long* way...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:54 AM
Subject: Hic!> Hi folks:
>
> Anyone got an Earliest Date citation for "How Dry I Am?" So far 1939 is as
> far back as I've gotten, but I'm morally certain it's older.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>
> (perhaps "morally certain" isn't the best phrase)

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?varstg:1:./temp/~ammem_fH0V::@@@mdb=aasm,ftvbib,rbpebib,musdibib,afcreed,cowellbib,toddbib,lomaxbib,raelbib,gottlieb,scsm,ncpm,omhbib,gmd,dukesm,mussm,amss,varstgAmer Mem gives the following ref but the link to the song seems broken.Page 4 gives the script.   I'm thinking that "How Dry I Am" may be so well
known and so old that it is also the accepted _name_ of the 4 notes (in
the same fashion as "My dog has fleas.")  Anyway, this gives that it was
well-known before Roy's dad would have learned it in the war.  And just
what was Dad doing singing a drinking song to a little kid, anyway?
(Actually I'm a bit envious that _I_ didn't have such a fortuitously early
start drinking and singing - oh the wasted years...)
---
The American Variety Stage: Vaudeville and Popular Entertainment,
1870-1920Item 1 of 23View this itemA one man vaudeville show : a comedy sketch / written by Joe Cook.Cook, JoeCREATED/PUBLISHED
1916NOTES
From the collections of the Rare Book and Special Collections Division.SUBJECTS
multiple characters -- one actor
magician
ventriloquist
games -- playing cards
song reference -- "Hang On The Bell Nellie" -- dramatization
dialects -- New York -- New York City -- Bowery dialect
musical instruments -- banjo
musical instruments -- violin
musical instruments -- ukelele
Hawaii
musical instruments -- Australian Woozophone
song title -- "Yankee Doodle"
song title -- "How Dry I Am"
musical instruments -- sleigh bells
high wire act -- burlesqueDIGITAL ID
(h) varsep s42725-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Still reading _Norwegian Folk Tales_, from the collection of Peter
Christen Asbjørnsen, 1812-1885 and Jørgen Engebretsen Moe, 1813-1882,
(trans. Pat Shaw Iverson & Carl Norman) New York, Viking Press, 1960.I've seen the same (following) tale in Irish collections but with all
different gift-details and thought nothing of it.In Asbjørnsen/Moe the tale is called "Little Freddie with his Fiddle." One
of the elements is a magic fiddle "Freddie" receives as a boon.  While he
plays, everyone in hearing range is forced to continue dancing, even past
exhaustion and pain.  He uses it to great effect when he is attacked. His
attackers always agree to leave him alone if he will stop playing.  (I
suppose many have offered "anything you like" to novice fiddler if s/he
would only stop playing, but that has nothing to do with my question.)I'd very much like to know if Grieg uses this story (or, especially, any
folksong based on it) in any of his works.The reason for my question in that on reading the tale I was struck by the
similarity to a song in the musical play, "Song of Norway."  I'm sure you
know the show was based, with some historical accuracy, on Grieg's life
and used selections from many of his pieces.  I saw the play on Broadway
in 1945 and one or two bits stay with me.  Possibly because the music was
so compelling to me back then. One song to the tune (I now know) of
Norwegian Dance No. 2 in A (from Opus 35) was "Freddy and his Fiddle.  To
the best of my recollection some of the words were:        Freddie and his fiddle will keep it up until we get
          unsteady in the middle...from wear and tear
        Freddie and his fiddle are at it in the square.I had always assumed that the writers of the show just used his music, not
any text and that this fantasy song just had to do with a skilled
musician, not a magic fiddle.  However, the similarities seem far too
great to be coincidence.Can you point me to the full words to this song in Song of Norway
AND/OR
the words (in English, hopefully) to any song Grieg may have used
for his "Dance No 2 in A" or a Freddie piece in any other of his material
AND/OR
Any recorded version of "Little Freddie with his Fiddle" as a trad song?I've done considerable web and library search but no luck so far.  The
show seems well-known (a movie and in small-theater production
continuously) but not archived on any of the musicals web-sites I've found
so far.I thank you for your trouble and advice.Abby Sale-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

>I found a reference in Jackson's _Spiritual Folksongs_ to the title verse of
>MOCS; he refers to "In Old Virginny" in Sharp _English Folksongs from the
>Southern Appalachians_, vol. 2 p.232-234.  Is there a kind list member out
>there with a copy of Sharp handy who could check on this?
>
>Many thanks in advance,
>
>Dave GardnerFor more information see my article,"Man of Constant Sorrow": Antecedants and TraditioninCountry Music Annual 2002
Charles K. Wolfe and James E. Akenson, Editors
University Press of Kentucky
663 South Limestone Street
Lexington, KY 40508-4008The version in Sharp, mixed with "I was born in East Virginia" ("In
Old Virginny"), was sung by Frances Richards, Callaway, Virginia, in
1918.  It shares a phrase, not found in the common versions nowadays,
with that of Almeda Riddle, which she dates to 1850 and the
California gold rush.Richards: "I'll hang my head like a humble Christian"
Riddle:   "I will bow my head like an humble Christian"--
john garst    [unmask]

My father sang me a great variety of songs, ranging from college drinking
songs to parlor/vaudeville/country songs to Gilbert & Sullivan songs.  He
had evidently been quite a hellraiser in his younger days, but by the time I
was aware of things he had pretty much settled down. So he didn't do much
drinking (or, after a few years, singing, either) in those days.  I had to
get to drinking on my own, and not until I was *considerably* older.
In fact, Abby, there is little to be envious about in my upbringing -- or,
for that matter, in my relationship with my father.
To be fair, he did teach me some songs, and he did teach me how to tie my
own bowties (he was fond of saying that it is the mark of a gentleman that
he ties his own bowties). While he had played guitar and mandolin in his
younger days, he no longer played by the time I was born, so I didn't learn
any music from him, either.
One other point:  his version of "How Dry I Am" went
     How dry I am
     How dry I am
     Nobody knows
     Nobody cares
rather than repeating the third line again...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Hic!>
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?varstg:1:./temp/~ammem_fH0V::@@@mdb=aa
sm,ftvbib,rbpebib,musdibib,afcreed,cowellbib,toddbib,lomaxbib,raelbib,gottli
eb,scsm,ncpm,omhbib,gmd,dukesm,mussm,amss,varstg
>
> Amer Mem gives the following ref but the link to the song seems broken.
>
> Page 4 gives the script.   I'm thinking that "How Dry I Am" may be so well
> known and so old that it is also the accepted _name_ of the 4 notes (in
> the same fashion as "My dog has fleas.")  Anyway, this gives that it was
> well-known before Roy's dad would have learned it in the war.  And just
> what was Dad doing singing a drinking song to a little kid, anyway?
> (Actually I'm a bit envious that _I_ didn't have such a fortuitously early
> start drinking and singing - oh the wasted years...)
> ---
> The American Variety Stage: Vaudeville and Popular Entertainment,
> 1870-1920
>
> Item 1 of 23
>
> View this item
>
> A one man vaudeville show : a comedy sketch / written by Joe Cook.
>
> Cook, Joe
>
> CREATED/PUBLISHED
> 1916
>
> NOTES
> From the collections of the Rare Book and Special Collections Division.
>
> SUBJECTS
> multiple characters -- one actor
> magician
> ventriloquist
> games -- playing cards
> song reference -- "Hang On The Bell Nellie" -- dramatization
> dialects -- New York -- New York City -- Bowery dialect
> musical instruments -- banjo
> musical instruments -- violin
> musical instruments -- ukelele
> Hawaii
> musical instruments -- Australian Woozophone
> song title -- "Yankee Doodle"
> song title -- "How Dry I Am"
> musical instruments -- sleigh bells
> high wire act -- burlesque
>
> DIGITAL ID
> (h) varsep s42725
>
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

It began,
I can't dance, you can't dance,
But let's admit we're definitely dancing.
That is a phenomenon nobody doubts,
Yet it's very common on nights hereabouts,  [love that rhyme!]
Freddie and his fiddle are at it in the square again,
Freddie and his fiddle will  make a preacher dance,
An undertaker hop, ......    and never let it stop.....
[my memory fails around here]
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 7:45 AM
Subject: Young Freddie and his Fiddle> Still reading _Norwegian Folk Tales_, from the collection of Peter
> Christen Asbjørnsen, 1812-1885 and Jørgen Engebretsen Moe, 1813-1882,
> (trans. Pat Shaw Iverson & Carl Norman) New York, Viking Press, 1960.
>
> I've seen the same (following) tale in Irish collections but with all
> different gift-details and thought nothing of it.
>
> In Asbjørnsen/Moe the tale is called "Little Freddie with his Fiddle." One
> of the elements is a magic fiddle "Freddie" receives as a boon.  While he
> plays, everyone in hearing range is forced to continue dancing, even past
> exhaustion and pain.  He uses it to great effect when he is attacked. His
> attackers always agree to leave him alone if he will stop playing.  (I
> suppose many have offered "anything you like" to novice fiddler if s/he
> would only stop playing, but that has nothing to do with my question.)
>
> I'd very much like to know if Grieg uses this story (or, especially, any
> folksong based on it) in any of his works.
>
> The reason for my question in that on reading the tale I was struck by the
> similarity to a song in the musical play, "Song of Norway."  I'm sure you
> know the show was based, with some historical accuracy, on Grieg's life
> and used selections from many of his pieces.  I saw the play on Broadway
> in 1945 and one or two bits stay with me.  Possibly because the music was
> so compelling to me back then. One song to the tune (I now know) of
> Norwegian Dance No. 2 in A (from Opus 35) was "Freddy and his Fiddle.  To
> the best of my recollection some of the words were:
>
>         Freddie and his fiddle will keep it up until we get
>           unsteady in the middle...from wear and tear
>         Freddie and his fiddle are at it in the square.
>
> I had always assumed that the writers of the show just used his music, not
> any text and that this fantasy song just had to do with a skilled
> musician, not a magic fiddle.  However, the similarities seem far too
> great to be coincidence.
>
> Can you point me to the full words to this song in Song of Norway
> AND/OR
> the words (in English, hopefully) to any song Grieg may have used
> for his "Dance No 2 in A" or a Freddie piece in any other of his material
> AND/OR
> Any recorded version of "Little Freddie with his Fiddle" as a trad song?
>
> I've done considerable web and library search but no luck so far.  The
> show seems well-known (a movie and in small-theater production
> continuously) but not archived on any of the musicals web-sites I've found
> so far.
>
> I thank you for your trouble and advice.
>
> Abby Sale
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

When I was a little kid (c.1959) I used to sing:How dry I am,
How wet I'll be
If I don't find
The bathroom keyI don't remember where I learned it... possibly camp, possibly school.  I
certainly did
not know anything about the original nor was I particularly aware that it was
a parody.- Mark Gilston

I'm looking for a particular variation of the "Cripple Creek" lyric, and a source citation.  The Internet offers many variants, but some don't match my needs, and most fail to acknowledge a source.Since I'm planning to use this information for a last minute addition to an article already accepted for publication, would like to find a scholarly source that reprints the relevant lyric. What I need is this chorus--of a very slight variant:Going down to Cripple Creek,
Going on the run,
Going down to Cripple Creek
To have some fun.I believe that one is fairly common, but I'm also hoping to find a version with a line about Cripple Creek being a good place for people who don't have any "mun."If anyone can help me locate such a version of the song, I'd appreciate your contacting me.  Once I know where to look, I should be able to quickly locate a copy of the appropriate source.Sue Attalla

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sue:The "A" version of "Cripple Creek" in the Frank C. Brown Collection of
North Carolina Folklore, Vol. 3, pp. 324-5, is a three-stanza text, with
the third stanza reading:Going up Cripple Creek,
Going on the run,
Going up Cripple Creek
To have a little fun.Six other sources are cited.EdOn Fri, 6 Dec 2002, Sue Attalla wrote:> I'm looking for a particular variation of the "Cripple Creek" lyric, and a source citation.  The Internet offers many variants, but some don't match my needs, and most fail to acknowledge a source.
>
> Since I'm planning to use this information for a last minute addition to an article already accepted for publication, would like to find a scholarly source that reprints the relevant lyric. What I need is this chorus--of a very slight variant:
>
> Going down to Cripple Creek,
> Going on the run,
> Going down to Cripple Creek
> To have some fun.
>
> I believe that one is fairly common, but I'm also hoping to find a version with a line about Cripple Creek being a good place for people who don't have any "mun."
>
> If anyone can help me locate such a version of the song, I'd appreciate your contacting me.  Once I know where to look, I should be able to quickly locate a copy of the appropriate source.
>
> Sue Attalla
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

<PRE>Marais & Miranda recorded that version in the second of thier Chicago
Concerts of '58.  No scholarly citations though.

Thanks for the information.Did their recording include the line about not having any "mun"?---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: [unmask]
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Sat, 7 Dec 2002 16:35:27 EST><PRE>Marais & Miranda recorded that version in the second of thier Chicago
>Concerts of '58.  No scholarly citations though.
>

Hi!        Here is your weekly opportunity to spend money and get addicted
to Ebay. :-)        SONGSTERS        1977325544 - Tyneside Songster, 1832, 25 GBP (ends Dec-10-02
12:53:07 PST)        927836900 - Tudor & Sands Funny Couple Songster, 1870?, $12
(ends Dec-11-02 19:03:05 PST)        744703275 - Merchant Gargling Oil Songster, 1886, $3.50 (ends
Dec-11-02 21:08:27 PST)        1978738149 - BRYANT'S PROGRAMME & SONGS FOR THIS EVENING, 1859,
$42 (ends Dec-12-02 20:15:18 PST)        SONGBOOKS        1976205213 - THE MINSTRELSY OF THE SCOTTISH BORDER, Scott,
volume 1 of 2, 1 GBP (ends Dec-08-02 11:55:42 PST)        928055713 - Negro Folk-Songs The HAMPTON SERIES BOOKS I-IV,
Curtis-Burlin, $12.99 (ends Dec-08-02 13:35:55 PST)        1976647216 - Gaelic Songs in Nova Scotia, Creighton, 1964,
$15.95 (ends Dec-09-02 01:47:33 PST)        927748162 - My Favorite Old Time Songs and Mountain Ballads,
Kincaid, 1931, $9 (ends Dec-09-02 13:09:28 PST)        927174747 - 6 songbooks from the 1930's inc. Kincaid, Sizemore &
others, $9.99 (ends Dec-09-02 14:18:13 PST)        928359268 - Spanish-American Folk-Songs, 1917, $15.95 (ends
Dec-09-02 14:46:45 PST)        927375653 - SONGS AND RECITATIONS OF IRELAND, 1976, $9 (ends
Dec-10-02 09:20:18 PST)        1977476456 - Ballads of the Kentucky Highlands, Fuson, 1931,
$15.23 (ends Dec-10-02 17:54:39 PST)        927569676 - Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians as sung by
JEAN RITCHIE, 1965, $9.99 (ends Dec-10-02 19:57:08 PST)        1977612316 - The Scottish Folksinger, Buchan & Hall, 1979, $4.99
(ends Dec-10-02 20:48:45 PST)        1977997487 - THE QUEST OF THE BALLAD, MacKenzie, 1919, $60 (ends
Dec-11-02 17:43:45 PST)        1978004132 - One Hundred English Folksongs, Sharp, 1916, $49.99
(ends Dec-11-02 17:54:34 PST)        1977973727 - A Song Catcher In Southern Mountains: American
Folk Songs of British Ancestry, Scarborough, 1937, $95 (ends Dec-11-02
18:18:35 PST)        1979240239 - Cumbrian Songs and Ballads, Gregson, 1980, 4.99 GBP
(ends Dec-12-02 03:11:02 PST)        1978678289 - Folk Songs of The Negro, Thomas, 1936 reprint,
$24.99 (ends Dec-12-02 19:03:53 PST)        928423286 - Oregon's Favorite Yodeling Cowboy Sensational
Collection of Cowboy Songs and Mountain Ballads, 1950, $5 (ends
Dec-13-02 19:45:08 PST)        927567259 - Lonsome Tunes Folk Songs from the Kentucky Mountain,
Wyman, 1916, $9.99 (ends Dec-13-02 19:49:57 PST)        1979179511 - RELIQUES OF ANCIENT ENGLISH POETRY, 3 volumes,
Percy, 1966 Dover edition, $5 (ends Dec-13-02 20:30:58 PST)        928609661 - Early American Folk Hymns, Wilcox, 1996, $9.95 (ends
Dec-14-02 14:33:39 PST)        928180317 - The Book of British Ballads, Hall, 1853, $19.99
(ends Dec-15-02 20:07:10 PST)        1978972187 - Songs of the American West, Lingenfelter, Dwyer &
Cohen, 1968, $12 (ends Dec-16-02 12:03:10 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

I've got a gal & she loves me,
She's as sweet as sweet can be.
She's got eyes of baby blue,
& My love for her is true.Cripple Creek's wide & Cripple Creek's deep,
Wade ol' Cripple Creek 'fore I sleep.
Roll my britches to my knees
Wade ol' Cripple Creek when I please.Ride in the buggy, that's for me,
See the wheels roll merrily
?
?I went down to Cripple Creek,
To see what my love had to eat.
He got drunk and fell against the wall,
Old corn licker was the cause of it all.There were at two other verses which I can't remember at all.  No mention of
'mun' that I remember, but I'll try to find the recording and listen to it
sometime this week and if the 'mun' verse or something related is there, I'll
write again.-Mark

Thanks for the follow-up.Sue---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: [unmask]
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:          Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:07:45 EST>I've got a gal & she loves me,
>She's as sweet as sweet can be.
>She's got eyes of baby blue,
>& My love for her is true.
>
>Cripple Creek's wide & Cripple Creek's deep,
>Wade ol' Cripple Creek 'fore I sleep.
>Roll my britches to my knees
>Wade ol' Cripple Creek when I please.
>
>Ride in the buggy, that's for me,
>See the wheels roll merrily
>?
>?
>
>I went down to Cripple Creek,
>To see what my love had to eat.
>He got drunk and fell against the wall,
>Old corn licker was the cause of it all.
>
>There were at two other verses which I can't remember at all.  No mention of
>'mun' that I remember, but I'll try to find the recording and listen to it
>sometime this week and if the 'mun' verse or something related is there, I'll
>write again.
>
>-Mark
>

A GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENTOn Sunday morning, 11am, 15th December, there will be a 30 minute programme
on BBC Radio Scotland about my search for Scots who in 1951 sang children's
'street / playground songs' for Alan Lomax.
Some of the 1951 recordings will be played, and present day interviews with
informants from South Uist, Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and others.
The programme should then be available for seven days on the BBC Scotland
website. [No, sorry, I do not have that address! Try BBC and work your way
in, I fear.]Best regardsEwan McVicar

Thank you, Ewan.  I look forward to it, as I'm sure we all do.All the best,
Dan Milner> A GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT
>
> On Sunday morning, 11am, 15th December, there will be a 30 minute
programme
> on BBC Radio Scotland about my search for Scots who in 1951 sang
children's
> 'street / playground songs' for Alan Lomax.
> Some of the 1951 recordings will be played, and present day interviews
with
> informants from South Uist, Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and others.
> The programme should then be available for seven days on the BBC Scotland
> website. [No, sorry, I do not have that address! Try BBC and work your way
> in, I fear.]
>
> Best regards
>
> Ewan McVicar

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:21:33 -0500, Ewan McVicar wrote:>A GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT
>
>On Sunday morning, 11am, 15th December, there will be a 30 minute programme
>on BBC Radio Scotland about my search for Scots who in 1951 sang children's
>'street / playground songs' for Alan Lomax.
>Some of the 1951 recordings will be played, and present day interviews with
>informants from South Uist, Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and others.
>The programme should then be available for seven days on the BBC Scotland
>website.Funny, I just got this announcement from another source.  Ewan added that
the BBC is http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/index.shtmlLive listen is
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/includes/html/listen.shtmlOr the following command _should_ open RealPlayer, go online and play the
show.  (Correct the directory for where you keep RP & leave a space
between the RP command and the URL.)
It can be used in Start | Run or as the command line of a new icon or in
Task Scheduler.
"C:\program files\Real\RealPlayer\realplay.exe" [space]
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/media/radioscotland.ram"
I like this because it avoids opening your browser and the Radio Scotland
ad.Let's see 11 plus 5 would be 4 pm real time, I guess.  (Did that one in my
head.)I wouldn't miss it.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

No, Abby.  It's five hours earlier here in the U.s., so the broadcast would
be on at six A.M. here!  Ouch!        Marge
E-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Abby Sale
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:16 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Singing In The StreetsOn Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:21:33 -0500, Ewan McVicar wrote:>A GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT
>
>On Sunday morning, 11am, 15th December, there will be a 30 minute programme
>on BBC Radio Scotland about my search for Scots who in 1951 sang children's
>'street / playground songs' for Alan Lomax.
>Some of the 1951 recordings will be played, and present day interviews with
>informants from South Uist, Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and others.
>The programme should then be available for seven days on the BBC Scotland
>website.Funny, I just got this announcement from another source.  Ewan added that
the BBC is http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/index.shtmlLive listen is
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/includes/html/listen.shtmlOr the following command _should_ open RealPlayer, go online and play the
show.  (Correct the directory for where you keep RP & leave a space
between the RP command and the URL.)
It can be used in Start | Run or as the command line of a new icon or in
Task Scheduler.
"C:\program files\Real\RealPlayer\realplay.exe" [space]
"http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/media/radioscotland.ram"
I like this because it avoids opening your browser and the Radio Scotland
ad.Let's see 11 plus 5 would be 4 pm real time, I guess.  (Did that one in my
head.)I wouldn't miss it.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

To abby and others: Eastern Time U.s. is five hours earlier than Greenwich
Mean Time, which means that the broadcast would air at six A.M. on Sunday
morning.  Ouch!        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

Marge:And for those of us on the Left Coast, it would air at 3 a.m. on Sunday
morning.  I rather doubt I will hear the original broadcast.EdOn Wed, 11 Dec 2002, Marge Steiner wrote:> To abby and others: Eastern Time U.s. is five hours earlier than Greenwich
> Mean Time, which means that the broadcast would air at six A.M. on Sunday
> morning.  Ouch!
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>

All I can say is (from the far west of BC) it's just as well that it'll be
on the website.  It sounds utterly fascinating, of course, and I do hope I
can access it.

Hi!        It's time to do you last minute holiday shopping on Ebay! This
list is the songbooks and miscellaneous. Later today I will post part 2
with the songsters.        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        1979555229 - Folk-Songs of the Southern United States by Combs,
1969 reprint, $15 (ends Dec-14-02 18:30:52 PST)        1979604171 - ADVENTURES OF A BALLAD HUNTER by John A. Lomax,
1947, $12.50 (ends Dec-14-02 20:00:42 PST)        1980102818 - Lumbering Songs from the Northern Woods by Fowke,
1970, $9.99 (ends Dec-15-02 18:08:48 PST)        1980220454 - FOLK-SONGS and SINGING GAMES by Farnsworth & Sharp,
1900?, $9.95 (ends Dec-15-02 20:26:59 PST)        1980338368 - North Pennsylvania Minstrelsy by Shoemaker, 1923,
$11 (ends Dec-16-02 16:00:00 PST)        1980679619 - Early Child Ballads, $1 (ends Dec-16-02 19:50:37
PST) (Warning: The publisher of this has a somewhat different view of
ballads from folklorists. Be sure you understand this before bidding.)        1980769280 - The Hell-Bound Train - A Cowboy Songbook by Ohrlin,
1973, $19.99 (ends Dec-17-02 01:49:16 PST)        1980836894 - My Pious Friends & Drunken Companions And More
Pious Friends & Drunken Companions by Shay, 1950's Dover edition, $9
(ends Dec-17-02 08:07:03 PST)        929347879 - Lonzo and Oscar's Folio of Mountain Ballads and
comedy songs, 1948, $3.99 (ends Dec-17-02 08:14:17 PST)        929747311 - BRADLEY KINCAID's Folio No. 12, 1941, $9.95 (ends
Dec-18-02 16:52:14 PST)        1981715722 - An American Sailor's Treasury by Shay, $5.97 (ends
Dec-18-02 21:40:37 PST)        1982202852 - BALLADS MIGRANT IN NEW ENGLAND by Flanders & Olney,
1953, $9.99 w/reserve (ends Dec-19-02 18:35:18 PST)        930238423 - The Book of Ballads by Leach, 1967, $9.99 (ends
Dec-20-02 09:14:40 PST)        1982152500 - Folk Visions & Voices, Traditional Music & Song in
North Georgia by Rosenbaum, 1983, $26 (ends Dec-22-02 17:02:32 PST)        MISCELLANEOUS        747293801 - The Morris Book part V by Sharp & Macilaine, 1913,
4.99 GBP (ends Dec-18-02 05:12:16 PST)        1981701251 - Sailortown by Hugill, 1967, $9.99 (ends Dec-18-02
20:55:41 PST)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dear listmembers,
Lisa Ornstein was inquiring about this fiddle tune verse's origins on
Fiddle-L, and I suggested she ask this list for possible information, but
she was unable to successfully subscribe and has asked me to forward her
question to Ballad-L.   Lisa is a wonderful fiddler and a music scholar.  I
thought if anyone knew an answer for her question they would be on this
list.  (Note: don't get confused because we're both named Lisa.)  Please
read her question below.  If you reply with any information she is seeking,
I would greatly appreciate it if you would be so kind as to send a "Cc" or
a copy of your message DIRECTLY to her
at:  [unmask]    -otherwise I will have to keep forwarding
individual copies of replies to her.
Thank you so much   :)
Lisa Johnson>Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 09:26:05 -0500
>From: Lisa Ornstein <[unmask]>
>Organization: Acadian Archives/Archives acadiennes
>Subject: Re: Fwd: W Campbell; "Oh, the Britches Full of Stitches"
>
>Dear Lisa,
>     Thank you so much for responding to my query concerning the verse
> "Oh, the Britches Full of Stitches." I'd be grateful for any help the
> Ballad-list might be able to muster, although I don't think we're looking
> at a ballad, or even a short song, but rather one of those  four-line
> short rhymes which fiddlers in the British Isles and American traditions
> have used to gladden the playing of a tune, and to help them remember it
> as well. I tried to do a posting to the Ballad-list but did not
> succeed--something is messed up on my passwording. If you would be so
> kind to pass along the message, I'd much appreciate it. The lyrics in
> question vary considerably, but the jist of them is:
>"Oh the britches full of stitches  [or Leather Breeches full of stitches]
>Mammy sewed the buttons on
>My wife she threw me out of bed
>Because I had my britches on.
>
>I think that this verse may relate to an old Irish march/polka variously
>entitled "The Breeches On" or "The Briches full of Stitches" (and other
>variant titles) but I can't find a published source to corroborate my
>hunch. Any documented mention of the existence of this verse in the
>British Isles would be very helpful (with the reference, of course!).
>Thanks!
>Lisa Ornstein, Director
>Acadian Archives/Archives acadiennes
>University of Maine at Fort Kent
>25 Pleasant St.
>Fort Kent, ME
>USA 04743
>email: [unmask]
>Tel.: (207) 834-7536
>Fax: (207) 834-7518

Hi!        As promised, here is part 2 - Songsters.        746281253 - Beadles Dime Songster number 3, 1865?, $5.99 (ends
Dec-15-02 17:18:39 PST)        746776616 - Republican Campaign Songs for 1888, $35 (ends
Dec-16-02 18:52:09 PST)        747145966 - The Bunker Hill Songster, $2.52 (ends Dec-17-02
18:08:03 PST)        1981360759 - The New Gaelic Songster or Revival of the Old Alban
Tongue by MacDonald, 1892, $10 (ends Dec-18-02 09:35:20 PST)        1982229600 - The Forecastle Songster, 1847, $5 (ends Dec-22-02
19:13:40 PST)        OK - that's it for now. There will probably be one more list
before Christmas.                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:15:40 -0500, Abby Sale wrote:>Let's see 11 plus 5 would be 4 pm real time, I guess.  (Did that one in my
>head.)Well, that just proves how good my head works.  I'll use the calculator
next time.OK.  Now it's 11 pm Scotland and time for the Archie Fisher show.  I never
listed to that since (although he certainly knows plenty) he never plays
ballads.So this seems an appropriate time to catch Ewan's (now) archived show.HELP!
BBC tells me to check "Missing Voices" at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/programmes/other/radio_scotland_features.shtmlAnd that tells mwe to click
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/media/sun_feature1_demand.ramAnd _that_ tells me the story behind the writing of "White Christmas," a
solid Jewish piece straight from the shetls.Something's amiss.  Still.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

There will be those who know or have heard of the thriving carolling
tradition in Sheffield.There is a programme on BBC Radio 4 at 11.00 am Christmas Day when well
known singers (Norma Waterson, Kate Rusby, Jim Boyes will talk about what
the carols mean to them.(Information from Stirrings www.stirrings.co.uk)Dave Eyre
www.collectorsfolk.co.uk----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Singing In The Streets> On Wed, 11 Dec 2002 10:15:40 -0500, Abby Sale wrote:
>
> >Let's see 11 plus 5 would be 4 pm real time, I guess.  (Did that one in
my
> >head.)
>
> Well, that just proves how good my head works.  I'll use the calculator
> next time.
>
> OK.  Now it's 11 pm Scotland and time for the Archie Fisher show.  I never
> listed to that since (although he certainly knows plenty) he never plays
> ballads.
>
> So this seems an appropriate time to catch Ewan's (now) archived show.
>
> HELP!
> BBC tells me to check "Missing Voices" at
>
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/programmes/other/radio_scotland_
features.shtml
>
> And that tells mwe to click
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/media/sun_feature1_demand.ram
>
> And _that_ tells me the story behind the writing of "White Christmas," a
> solid Jewish piece straight from the shetls.
>
> Something's amiss.  Still.
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml
>
>

> OK.  Now it's 11 pm Scotland and time for the Archie Fisher show. [...]
> So this seems an appropriate time to catch Ewan's (now) archived show.Wrong day - it's 11am tomorrow.[BBC link goes to the Songlines programme...]
> And _that_ tells me the story behind the writing of "White Christmas,"
> a solid Jewish piece straight from the shetls.I liked the Songlines programmes, they were trying to do something
I don't recall any other radio show doing, i.e. document how specific
songs entered popular culture and the life they led after first being
composed and recorded.But this programme gave a different analysis than you're suggesting.
They didn't attribute any melodic features of the song to Jewish
tradition; instead they pointed to Berlin's idiosyncratic composing
methods (musically illiterate, and working at a mutant piano with a
transposing lever so he only needed to play in C).  I would kinda
prefer it to have a traditional background, but can you identify
anything specific?Knowing neither that Berlin was Jewish nor that he worked in such an
odd way I'd have guessed the melody owed most to a theme in Beethoven's
fourth piano concerto.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Caroline Barbour of BBC Scotland Features who made the Songlines
programmes, also made the Missing Voices programme, using my research and
informants and linking text.
Abby, Songlines had the same timeslot, hence the website directs you to the
last Songlines programme, from last [Saturday] night.
The Songlines were great stuff. Over the period she covered La Mer / This
Land Is Your Land / Nkosi S'Kilele Afrika / The Freedom Come All Ye / White
Christmas and much else.Ewan

I just listened to "Missing Voices," Ewan McVicar's documentary on the
Scottish children who sang for Alan Lomax in 1951.  I loved hte
reminiscences of all three informants--including Mr. Mearns telling the
story of Lomax stomping on the roof of the downstairs neighbor and getting
away with it.  If you missed the program, you'll just have to catch the
replay on the web.  Anyhow, great job, Ewan!        Marge

On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 01:11:02 +0000, Jack Campin wrote:>> OK.  Now it's 11 pm Scotland and time for the Archie Fisher show. [...]
>> So this seems an appropriate time to catch Ewan's (now) archived show.
>
>Wrong day - it's 11am tomorrow.Ok.  So now I've got GMT occurring in Samoa and a day early.  This is
getting worse.No - there it is now, where it should be
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/radioscotland/programmes/other/radio_scotland_features.shtml
>
>[BBC link goes to the Songlines programme...]
>> And _that_ tells me the story behind the writing of "White Christmas,"
>> a solid Jewish piece straight from the shetls.
>
>I liked the Songlines programmes, they were trying to do something
>I don't recall any other radio show doing, i.e. document how specific
>songs entered popular culture and the life they led after first being
>composed and recorded.
>
>But this programme gave a different analysis than you're suggesting.I was but kidding.  I took that from the show's intro's brief bio of
Berlin.  Songlines did not pass over the irony of an Eastern European
Jewish refugee writing the world's most popular "secular" Christmas song.
Of course there's no musical connection.Yes, it's a valid and interesting show.  I just didn't expect it to pop up
in the "Missing Voices" link.---OK.  A fine show, Ewan.  You wonder about these people and I think you've
given some fine new insights into the singers, songs, settings.  Also some
very interesting material about Alan's style of collecting from the
subject's POV.  I think I've only come across comments in the past from
Leadbelly and that was mainly John, of course.Thanks for letting us know about the 'cast.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

'Long as I'm feeling slightly askew and thinking children' stuff, I'll
relate that once I was driving through central England en route to
Plymouth and I picked up a youthful hitchhiker.  He was not, in fact,
touring the Galaxy, but only going a few miles home and dusk and some
chill were settling."Just drop me at the Cross," he says."Wha?" says I."At the Cross.....[pause].....at Banbury Cross.""Wha?""You know, _Banbury Cross_.""'Fraid I don't.  What's Banbury Cross?""You don't know the rhyme?"  (Stunned and incredulous.)"Nope.""Ride a cock horse.........?""Oh yeah.  I've heard that, I think.  So you want to go where?"  (I'm
trying to work this out...cocks, horses, crosses what's he on about?)"In the town of Banbury, you see."(We're just driving into it now.  A small sign tells me.  It's already
past 8 pm and the town seems closed.  Rolled up and put away for the
evening.  Much like driving through Speedtrap, Illinois on the old Lincoln
Highway.  All I could see is the street I'm driving and the cross street
and a big sort of celtic cross in the middle.  Well, times change and a
look at MapQuest for Banbury shows lots more streets (7 or 8) and likely a
MacDonalds.  And... a look at Microsoft Streets doesn't really search out
the Lincoln Highway at all which is a real shame.  -  I-Roads now, you
know.  What would Guthrie have written about I-Roads?  But scattered bits
of it as US 30 do exist.)"There," he says, "Banbury Cross."  And he indicates to stop and gets out
at the cross.  (I still don't know if he meant the Cross or the
cross-street since I've often heard cross-streets referred to at "the
cross" in Scotland.)I've also since learned that, like the world-famous TREE in Christmas,
Florida, the Banbury Cross has been quietly replaced several times over
the years but the locals kind of let on it's medieval.I still feel bad about the insult I inadvertently done the young man.
Kind of like meeting a visitor to Orlando who never heard of Walt Disney.
Well, I'd sort of applaud the visitor's upbringing and education but the
Banburger had little else as a claim to fame.Bells on her toes, huh?-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

In case anyone missed an earlier annoumcement, all or any of the
Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection (including the long-awaited volume 8)
are now available from CAMSCO Music (dick@camsco com or 800/548-FOLK
[3655])Single volumes: $47 (US)
Complete Set:: $305If anyone is interested in the University of North Carolina's "Sodom
Laurel Album" book cum CD, I can get that at a substantial discount
(better than Amazon.com or B&N)

 like the world-famous TREE in Christmas,
Florida,The what?Dave

Thanks to Abby Sale and others for kind comments.
Much of the credit for the radio show should have gone to the BBC Radio
Scotland features person who suggested / recorded / edited/ scripted /
produced the show - three cheers for Caroline Barbour.Mind you, I had first to track informants down.
Through newspaper and radio stories I found over 20 people who took part in
J R  Ritchie's film The Singing Street, but only one of the singers he
recorded - Peggy MacGillivray. I also got through Ritchie's niece a
photocopy of his notebook listing all the singers on the film.
Jack Mearns of Aberdeen I found through Ian Russell of the Elphinstone
Institute. He in turn tracked down all his pals of 50 years ago.
South Uist was the hardest, and most surprising. I had thought the visit of
a Texan to a small school in the Outer Hebrides would have been a major
memory, but found no-one who remembered him coming or recording. Annie who
we interviewed was great on the school life of the time, and would have
been there that day. She said to me that he would have been just one more
among many visitors brought to the school by Calum and Sorley Maclean.As regards Lomax as a collector, Hamish Henderson wrote about their trips -
Lomax recorded a lot of singing from Hamish as well as being 'guided' by
him. Ewan MacColl in his autobiography, and Joan Littlewood in hers, both
write about Lomax turning up and seeking to record Ewan. MacColl,
Littlewood, MacGillivray and Mearns all talk about him playing guitar and
singing - to pass the time while Theatre Workshop were dismantling scenery
/ because he was requested to / in order to set an atmosphere for the
recording. Maybe he did not do that in South Uist, and hence is not
recalled?EwanEwan McVicar
84 High Street
Linlithgow
EH49 7AQ
01506 847935

It seems that Lomax is remembered fondly in by the informants in the
documentary, but I know that he was not universally liked.  would some have
been to go on record about this?        Marge onE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Ewan McVicar
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:41 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Missing VoicesThanks to Abby Sale and others for kind comments.
Much of the credit for the radio show should have gone to the BBC Radio
Scotland features person who suggested / recorded / edited/ scripted /
produced the show - three cheers for Caroline Barbour.Mind you, I had first to track informants down.
Through newspaper and radio stories I found over 20 people who took part in
J R  Ritchie's film The Singing Street, but only one of the singers he
recorded - Peggy MacGillivray. I also got through Ritchie's niece a
photocopy of his notebook listing all the singers on the film.
Jack Mearns of Aberdeen I found through Ian Russell of the Elphinstone
Institute. He in turn tracked down all his pals of 50 years ago.
South Uist was the hardest, and most surprising. I had thought the visit of
a Texan to a small school in the Outer Hebrides would have been a major
memory, but found no-one who remembered him coming or recording. Annie who
we interviewed was great on the school life of the time, and would have
been there that day. She said to me that he would have been just one more
among many visitors brought to the school by Calum and Sorley Maclean.As regards Lomax as a collector, Hamish Henderson wrote about their trips -
Lomax recorded a lot of singing from Hamish as well as being 'guided' by
him. Ewan MacColl in his autobiography, and Joan Littlewood in hers, both
write about Lomax turning up and seeking to record Ewan. MacColl,
Littlewood, MacGillivray and Mearns all talk about him playing guitar and
singing - to pass the time while Theatre Workshop were dismantling scenery
/ because he was requested to / in order to set an atmosphere for the
recording. Maybe he did not do that in South Uist, and hence is not
recalled?EwanEwan McVicar
84 High Street
Linlithgow
EH49 7AQ
01506 847935

On Sun, 15 Dec 2002 23:50:58 -0800, Dave Eyre wrote:> like the world-famous TREE in Christmas,
>Florida,
>
>The what?
>
Christmas, Florida, (the original fort begun Christmas day) is a town of
about 12 or 13 people between Orlando and the Coast.  It's main industry
is reforwarding mail to get the town postmark around Christmas day.  It
has a huge live (well over 6 feet) tree out front you can see from Rte 50
and they claim it's the original one.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

This one should have been easy but help would be appreciated.  I am asked
to authenticate for someone that "Banks of the Ohio" is PD and not
copyright.Thinking this would be easy as anything I pulled down Sharp then Lomax
then this & that but found practically nothing hard.  Found no copy in any
of the US broadside websites, either.  Not even in Hunter or Amer Memory.
I get the impression it's much rarer in trad than it is commercially.Ballad Index gives 1915 but not the source it was 1915 in.  My contact
seems to need to produce an actual copy of an older source or he will not
be permitted to sing the song at the gig.Any ideas?NAME: Banks of the Ohio [Laws F5]
DESCRIPTION: The singer takes his sweetheart walking, hoping to discuss
   marriage. She seemingly refuses him (because she is too young?). Rather
   than wait, he throws her into the river to drown. In most versions he is
   not caught, though in some texts she haunts him
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1915
KEYWORDS: murder river drowning
REFERENCES (10 citations):
Laws F5, "On the Banks of the Ohio"
Randolph 160, "Down on the Banks of the Ohio" (3 texts, 2 tunes)
Eddy 104, "The Murdered Girl" (7 texts, 2 tunes, but Laws considers only
the B text -- "On the Banks of the Old Pedee" -- to belong with this
ballad)
Asch/Dunson/Raim, p. 110, "Down on the Banks of the Ohio" (1 text, 1 tune)
Cohen/Seeger/Wood, pp. 138-139, "Banks of the Ohio" (1 text, 1 tune)
Botkin-MRFolklr, p. 577, "On the Banks of the Ohio" (1 text, 1 tune)
LPound-ABS, 45, p. 108, "The Old Shawnee"; p. 109, "On the Banks of the
Old Pedee" (2 texts)
Darling-NAS, pp. 201-202, "On the Banks of the Ohio" (1 text)
Silber-FSWB, p. 180, "Banks Of The Ohio" (1 text)-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

>Ballad Index gives 1915 but not the source it was 1915 in.  My contact
>seems to need to produce an actual copy of an older source or he will not
>be permitted to sing the song at the gig.
>
>Any ideas?Several more refs, including Henry, Folk-Songs from the Southern
Highlands, are given by Laws in Native American Balladry.  My guess
is that Henry's informant might have dated it to 1915, but I have not
checked this source.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]> writes:
>Ballad Index gives 1915 but not the source it was 1915 in.
>
Abby,I can at least help with the 1915 ref.  Louise Pound gives two versions, one "obtained" from a Lilliian Gear Boswell at Junction, Wyoming in 1915, the other from an Ms. copy owned by L. C. Wimberly in 1916.   It isn't clear if the date is when she
saw the Ms., or when the Ms. was compiled.The ballad appears to have been in oral circulation in places as far apart as the Carolina's and Wyoming by the 1920s and Laws notes its possible derivation from an English broadside.  Neither of these facts put the song in the public domain, but
I'd hate to be the person who had to come up with proof of copyright ownership.The person should bear in mind, however, that limited copyright can exist on specific arrangements of the ballad.>My contact>seems to need to produce an actual copy of an older source or he will not
>be permitted to sing the song at the gig.This is intriguing!  What are the grounds from this prohibition?Cheers
Jamie

Abby, John:I will check that source and a few other early collections when I get
home.Stay tuned --EdOn Mon, 16 Dec 2002, John Garst wrote:> >Ballad Index gives 1915 but not the source it was 1915 in.  My contact
> >seems to need to produce an actual copy of an older source or he will not
> >be permitted to sing the song at the gig.
> >
> >Any ideas?
>
> Several more refs, including Henry, Folk-Songs from the Southern
> Highlands, are given by Laws in Native American Balladry.  My guess
> is that Henry's informant might have dated it to 1915, but I have not
> checked this source.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

On 12/16/02, Abby Sale wrote:>This one should have been easy but help would be appreciated.  I am asked
>to authenticate for someone that "Banks of the Ohio" is PD and not
>copyright.
>
>Thinking this would be easy as anything I pulled down Sharp then Lomax
>then this & that but found practically nothing hard.  Found no copy in any
>of the US broadside websites, either.  Not even in Hunter or Amer Memory.
>I get the impression it's much rarer in trad than it is commercially.
>
>Ballad Index gives 1915 but not the source it was 1915 in.  My contact
>seems to need to produce an actual copy of an older source or he will not
>be permitted to sing the song at the gig.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>NAME: Banks of the Ohio [Laws F5]
>DESCRIPTION: The singer takes his sweetheart walking, hoping to discuss
>   marriage. She seemingly refuses him (because she is too young?). Rather
>   than wait, he throws her into the river to drown. In most versions he is
>   not caught, though in some texts she haunts him
>AUTHOR: unknown
>EARLIEST DATE: 1915
>KEYWORDS: murder river drowning
>REFERENCES (10 citations):
>Laws F5, "On the Banks of the Ohio"
>Randolph 160, "Down on the Banks of the Ohio" (3 texts, 2 tunes)
>Eddy 104, "The Murdered Girl" (7 texts, 2 tunes, but Laws considers only
>the B text -- "On the Banks of the Old Pedee" -- to belong with this
>ballad)
>Asch/Dunson/Raim, p. 110, "Down on the Banks of the Ohio" (1 text, 1 tune)
>Cohen/Seeger/Wood, pp. 138-139, "Banks of the Ohio" (1 text, 1 tune)
>Botkin-MRFolklr, p. 577, "On the Banks of the Ohio" (1 text, 1 tune)
>LPound-ABS, 45, p. 108, "The Old Shawnee"; p. 109, "On the Banks of the
>Old Pedee" (2 texts)
>Darling-NAS, pp. 201-202, "On the Banks of the Ohio" (1 text)
>Silber-FSWB, p. 180, "Banks Of The Ohio" (1 text)As someone pointed out, the 1915 date is from Pound. Looking at the
lists in Laws and other places, I don't think we're going to get
much that's *demonstrably* older than that. But how much supporting
evidence is needed? I can point to about nine versions earlier than
1940 (Randolph, Eddy, Pound, Brown, Henry). They're all distinct,
and none list an author. What does it take to prove a song is
traditional?
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Abby Sale said:>Christmas, Florida, (the original fort begun Christmas day) is a town
>of about 12 or 13 people between Orlando and the Coast.12 or13 people??? And that's a town? Wow! What do you call a village or a
hamlet then?;oDSeason's greetings and good wishes to one and all.Simon

Dick,I would like to purchase volume 8.  Can I do so by just transmitting to
you credit card info and my address?Lew Becker>>> [unmask] 12/15/02 06:30PM >>>
In case anyone missed an earlier annoumcement, all or any of the
Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection (including the long-awaited volume
8)
are now available from CAMSCO Music (dick@camsco com or 800/548-FOLK
[3655])Single volumes: $47 (US)
Complete Set:: $305If anyone is interested in the University of North Carolina's "Sodom
Laurel Album" book cum CD, I can get that at a substantial discount
(better than Amazon.com or B&N)

Dear Lew,If you would find it more convenient, please send me your entire check book.
I will forward $47 to my friend Dick and use the rest to spread joy and
mirth during the "Holiday Season."All the best,
Dan----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis Becker" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Blatant Semi-Commercial Announcement to Follow?> Dick,
>
> I would like to purchase volume 8.  Can I do so by just transmitting to
> you credit card info and my address?
>
> Lew Becker
>
> >>> [unmask] 12/15/02 06:30PM >>>
> In case anyone missed an earlier annoumcement, all or any of the
> Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection (including the long-awaited volume
> 8)
> are now available from CAMSCO Music (dick@camsco com or 800/548-FOLK
> [3655])
>
> Single volumes: $47 (US)
> Complete Set:: $305
>
> If anyone is interested in the University of North Carolina's "Sodom
> Laurel Album" book cum CD, I can get that at a substantial discount
> (better than Amazon.com or B&N)

>Bob Waltz asks:
...
>As someone pointed out, the 1915 date is from Pound. Looking at the
>lists in Laws and other places, I don't think we're going to get
>much that's *demonstrably* older than that. But how much supporting
>evidence is needed? I can point to about nine versions earlier than
>1940 (Randolph, Eddy, Pound, Brown, Henry). They're all distinct,
>and none list an author. What does it take to prove a song is
>traditional?In my courses I proceed from Barre Toelken's characterization (if not
definition) of the "materials of folklore" as being
characterized as "'tradition-based communicative units informally exchanged
in dynamic variation through space and time.'  Tradition is here understood
to mean not some static, immutable force from the past, but those
pre-existing culture-specific materials and options that bear upon the
performer more heavily than do his or her own personal tastes and talents.
We recognize in the use of tradition that such matters as content and style
have been for the most part passed on but not invented by the performer."
(Toelken 32)
"Dynamic recognizes, on the other hand, that in the processing of these
contents and styles in performance, the artist's own unique talents of
inventiveness within the tradition are highly valued and are expected to
operate strongly.  Time and space dimensions remind us that the resulting
variations may spread geographically with great rapidity (as jokes do) as
well as down through time (good luck beliefs).  Folklore is made up of
informal expressions passed around long enough to have become recurrent in
form and content, but changeable in performance.  (Toelken, 32)Page numbers refer to Toelken, Barre, _The Dynamics of Folklore_, first ed.
Boston: Houghton, 1979.Now it seems to me that the real answer is not that this or that copyright
(e.g., Luisa Pound's) has expired.  That is chance.The real demonstration is that the song varies dynamically through time and
(or) space, thereby demonstratingthat the song has not been _treated_by
those singing it  as a "standardized" text produced (and metaphorically
"owned") by any single individual.  That would seem to be a sort of "common
law" test.  (analagous to: If everybody treats my back forty as a public
thoroughfare, eventually it will become one...)Secondly the song is certainly "traditional" in that the dynamic variation
is not so "unbridled" as to make the song unrecognizable (as might be the
case in some loose blues ad lib improvisations).  No, all these "variants"
are different iterations (varying dynamically among themselves) of  a
single traditional "idea," with is the song "Banks of the Ohio."John Meier (_Kunstlieder im Volksmunde_, Halle: Niemeyer, 1906) said that
ALL folksongs (he was not confronted by blues, the poor man!) have a single
author, but that when those singing the song do not care who the author
was, and treat it as their own, varying it freely (or not) according to
their own (more or less traditional) tastes, then the song becomes a
folksong.  This is the so-called "Herrschaftsverhaeltnis  zum Volkslied"
["ownership" is a good translation].Who owns the "Banks of  the Ohio"?  We do, this person and [note the "and"
rather than "or"] that person,  singing the  song  as they see  fit.  There
is no record of anyone  giving this or that individual credit for it (e.g.,
it is not an "Irving Berlin" song).  Notably, singers are not disturbed if
one version is not like another: both are valid, co-valent, as it were,
because there is no standard text "owned" by some songwriter.  Is it
traditional?  Yes, it fits the image of "traditional song", containing
typical, vernacular and traditional plot elements, stock situations, stock
relationships, turns of phrase, formulas, and melodic conventions.  Is it
dynamic: yes, there is variation between performances; no one performance
is viewed as the standard by which others are judged (in distinction,
perhaps, to variations embedded in a Beethoven sonata).End of discourse...Side bar:
I would submit, that when people like me said back in the  60's "But that
is a Joan Baez song", we were treating  it as if it were a commercial pop.
song, just like a "Beatles-" song or a "Beach Boys-" song.  The
distinction, I would submit, is that WE were not a folk group then, but
rather kids performing radio-songs (a school group, a kids group, a church
group, etc).  As we "matured" in our musical practice, and learned that
there were other versions, and that each had its own merits, then things
changed.  As we began hearing  all sorts of tunes and songs in all sorts of
variations all around us, and as we  _accepted_ that variation, I would
submit we became a folk group (of musicians/musical audience).  It was at
that point that we  stopped saying, this  song or that was a "Joan Baez"
song, but rather the "'Banks of the Ohio' like JB (or Doc Watson, or Omie
Wise's cousin) does it."  In a very real sense, then, the folk group makes
the folk song.These collections were made in folk groups.I bet, Abby, your questioner could begin to argue that one.Finally, to return to Toelken, I strongly stand behind his use of the word
"characterization" rather than "definition."  We can typify that which is
traditional, but we  cannot "definitively" delimit that which is dynamic
(even as a matter of pure logic).David EngleDavid G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang        The Traditional Ballad Index:
        http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

Dan,Thanks for your offer but I think I'll pass.Don Nichols also pointed out my mistake to me.  My apologies to all for
sending what I thought was a private message to the list. I'll get it
right eventually.Happy holidays to all.Lew>>> [unmask] 12/16/02 05:13PM >>>
Dear Lew,If you would find it more convenient, please send me your entire check
book.
I will forward $47 to my friend Dick and use the rest to spread joy
and
mirth during the "Holiday Season."All the best,
Dan----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis Becker" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Blatant Semi-Commercial Announcement to Follow?> Dick,
>
> I would like to purchase volume 8.  Can I do so by just transmitting
to
> you credit card info and my address?
>
> Lew Becker
>
> >>> [unmask] 12/15/02 06:30PM >>>
> In case anyone missed an earlier annoumcement, all or any of the
> Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection (including the long-awaited volume
> 8)
> are now available from CAMSCO Music (dick@camsco com or 800/548-FOLK
> [3655])
>
> Single volumes: $47 (US)
> Complete Set:: $305
>
> If anyone is interested in the University of North Carolina's "Sodom
> Laurel Album" book cum CD, I can get that at a substantial discount
> (better than Amazon.com or B&N)

Yep. If you don't want to E-mail it, call me (free) ay 800/548-FOLK (3655)
dick
Lewis Becker wrote:> Dick,
>
> I would like to purchase volume 8.  Can I do so by just transmitting to
> you credit card info and my address?
>
> Lew Becker
>
> >>> [unmask] 12/15/02 06:30PM >>>
> In case anyone missed an earlier annoumcement, all or any of the
> Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection (including the long-awaited volume
> 8)
> are now available from CAMSCO Music (dick@camsco com or 800/548-FOLK
> [3655])
>
> Single volumes: $47 (US)
> Complete Set:: $305
>
> If anyone is interested in the University of North Carolina's "Sodom
> Laurel Album" book cum CD, I can get that at a substantial discount
> (better than Amazon.com or B&N)

On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:18:53 -0700, Barry O'Neill wrote:
                  ^
>Hi Bob,
>
>In my mind, from some old Folkways record, is this first verse:
>
>Twas on the tenth day of October,
>In '74 which caus-ed woe
>The Indian savages did cover
>The pleasant banks of the Ohio.
>
(There was a brief Banks of the Ohio thread there.  The "happy?" file
confirms this:10/10/1774: The Virginia Militia was attacked by British-paid Shawnees.
This is officially (by act of Congress) the 1st shot of Revolutionary War
(ie before Lex-Concord) from "The Battle of Point Pleasant"; _The American
Revolution_; Folkways FH5277.  A good record, BTW.>Three pieces of evidence that this was the origin of the well-known murder
>ballad (and therefore the origin was not some murder ballad referring to
>another river) is that the tune is somewhat similar to the well-known one
>(unless someone just recently set that tune to it); that the phrase banks
>of the Ohio is always used in the last line of the verses of this song, as
>it is in the murder balled; and that when people make up new versions, the
>remnants of the old song are often there in some way or other, and here we
>have the them of killing along the river banks.
>
>A google search of "October 10 1774" turned up the Battle of Point
>Pleasant, the "first battle of the American Revolution" .
>
>A further search on "point pleasant" and "indian savages" turned up the
>song at a local history website
>http://appalachian_home.tripod.com/shawnee_song.htm
>and a related song at
>http://www.blueridgeinstitute.org/ballads/kanawhasong.html
>
>Do you think the first one is the inspiration?
>
>BarryThe raw term "banks of the Ohio" seems common enough, though.  Before
asking here (in 2002) a Amer. Memory search found several instances
unrelated to either ballad.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml