On 10/30/02, dick greenhaus wrote:>Actually, I don't like Apple very much. Mor Microsoft. But..the latest edition of
>Digital Tradition  works very nicely on Mac OS up through the latest.When did this happen? And where do we get it?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Andrew Darling wrote:
>
> The note to the ballad "By the Lightning We Lost Our Sight" states:
> "From the singing and recitation of Harry Sutherland, River John,
> Pictou County."
> I am not sure how much a "reasonable" price might be; I have a copy of
> Mackenzie in fairly shabby state, but nevertheless intact and with no
> loose hinges, etc, for GBP 50.  (Hope I'm not breaking the rules of
> the group with this shameless ad.  I principally wanted to respond to
> your request for information about the home port.  If I can get my
> scanner to work, and can do it without breaking the spine,  I
> will send you a scan of the relevant page.)
> best wishes
> Andrew
> ______________________________________________________________________________
> Birchwood Books - specialising in books on the traditional music of
> the British Isles.
> 8 The Colonnade
> The Piece Hall
> Halifax
> West Yorkshire
> HX1 1RE
> +44 (0)1422 383533
> http://www.birchwoodbooks.co.ukPostscript: Mackenzie gives no tune for it, #86, in his 'Folk Tunes'
appendix.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

I should I think have pointed out before that the song text is viciously
racist, sexist, and couched in the crude language of the soldier.
I described it as rather wonderful, but this is in part because I am
interested in the account of the song, and sincerely wonder if the lyric is
naive, the offensive social norms of the time, or of satiric intent - I
hope the latter is the case, but deeply suspect I am kidding myself.EwanEwan McVicar
84 High Street
Linlithgow
EH49 7AQ
01506 847935

(From The Digital Tradition)By the Lightning We Lost Our SightCome all you lads bound over the deep, I hope you will attend,
And listen unto those few lines which I have lately penned.
I was once as hardy a sailor lad as ever furled a sail,
Till by the lightning I lost my sight in that tremendous gale.On the eighteenth of September last from Cork we did set sail.
We were bound for Gibraltar in a fair and pleasant gale.
The weather being fine, our course did steer our ship before the wind,
And still my love grew warmer for the girl I left behind.Scarce had we reached our distant port, we lay a few days there,
When our orders ran for old England with the wind still blowing fair.
We shoved our good ship out to sea, and on her did crowd sail,
While a storm arose, the sun eclipsed, it blew a hurricane.The storm it still continued, and then it blew a gale.
Our captain cried, "My heroes bold, close reef your main top sail"
Scarce had he those words uttered when like tars aloft did they,
Like hardy tars through storm and wind his orders to obey.Scarce had we reached the main top when a heavier flash rolled by.
Dear God, I ought to remember it, the last sight with my eyes!
Our to'gallantmast to pieces went all by a ball of light,
Which leaves me and four sailors more, by the lightning we lost our
sight.Next morning when the sun arose we were a sight to view.
Our chief mate was washed overboard, and four more of the crew.
The storm it still continued, the lightning sharp did flash,
The foaming seas washed over her, and on her sides did smash.From Ballads and Sea Songs from Nova Scotia, Mackenzie
Collected from Harry Sutherland
DT #557
Laws K6

The latest DT (Spring 02) was released in Spring of 02. It can be downloaded from the
mudcat.org site, or if you have a slow connection, you can send $5 to:Digital Tradition
28 Powell Street
Greenwich, CT 06831And I'll send you a copy-encouraged CDROM with the DT for Windows, Mac or DOS.dick greenhaus"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:> On 10/30/02, dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> >Actually, I don't like Apple very much. Mor Microsoft. But..the latest edition of
> >Digital Tradition  works very nicely on Mac OS up through the latest.
>
> When did this happen? And where do we get it?
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."

Folks:The Silas Perkins is apparently rare, and of interest to Downeasterners.See e-bay item  1575198159 - Down East Ballads by Perkins, 1927, $14.99
(ends Nov-03-02 15:24:49 PST) as posted by Dolores yesterday.As a Californian, I will defer to you easterners.Please advise.Ed

>I had trouble fitting the last line to the tune.
>
>EdI think that this kind of fitting is very common practice.  See below.>On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, John Garst wrote:
>
>>  >It starts:
>>  >
>>  >Come, loyal Britons all rejoice, with joyful Acclamation,
>>  >And join with one united voice upon this just Occasion,
>>  >To Admiral Vernon drink a health, likewise to each brave Fellow,
>>  >Who with that noble Admiral was, at the taking of Porto Bello.
>>
>>  For what it may be worth, this fits very well the Babe of Bethlehem
>  > tune, William Walker, Southern Harmony, p 78.  Moreover, the rhyme
>  > scheme at the end of the first two lines is the same:
>  >
>>  Ye nations all, on you I call, Come hear this declaration,
>  > And don't refuse this glorious news Of Jesus and salvation....This is the meter (8,7):-'-'-'-' -'-'-'-The first 3 1/2 double lines of "Come, loyal Britons" fit it exactly.
The last half line is different: --'--'-'- .To make it fit the Babe of Bethlehem tune just sing two unaccented
words where there is one in strict (8,7).  Thus, where the first line
has  -    '  -  '  -  '  -
with joyful Acclamationsing instead, for the fourth line,-   -   '  -   -  '  -  '  -
at the taking of Porto Bello.To do this, halve the note for "with," duplicate the result, and sing
"at the" to the resulting pair of notes (two notes in the same time
as the one for "with").  Do the same for "-ful" and "-ing of."
--
john garst    [unmask]

>To make it fit the Babe of Bethlehem tune just sing two unaccented
>words where there is one in strict (8,7).  Thus, where the first line
>has
>
>  -    '  -  '  -  '  -
>with joyful Acclamation
>
>sing instead, for the fourth line,
>
>-   -   '  -   -  '  -  '  -
>at the taking of Porto Bello.
>
>To do this, halve the note for "with," duplicate the result, and sing
>"at the" to the resulting pair of notes (two notes in the same time
>as the one for "with").The following isn't right.>Do the same for "-ful" and "-ing of."Correction:Halve the value of the note for "joy-" (in the first line), duplicate
the result, and use the resulting pair of notes for "taking" (two
notes in the same time as the one for "joy-."  The first of the newly
generate note pair in this case is accented, where in the first case
above, both are unaccented.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Ewan et al:Satirical.  The racism was incidental.EdOn Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Ewan McVicar wrote:> I should I think have pointed out before that the song text is viciously
> racist, sexist, and couched in the crude language of the soldier.
> I described it as rather wonderful, but this is in part because I am
> interested in the account of the song, and sincerely wonder if the lyric is
> naive, the offensive social norms of the time, or of satiric intent - I
> hope the latter is the case, but deeply suspect I am kidding myself.
>
> Ewan
>
> Ewan McVicar
> 84 High Street
> Linlithgow
> EH49 7AQ
> 01506 847935
>
>
>

Of course, it sings jes' fine to Yankee Doodle.John Garst wrote:> >I had trouble fitting the last line to the tune.
> >
> >Ed
>
> I think that this kind of fitting is very common practice.  See below.
>
> >On Sun, 27 Oct 2002, John Garst wrote:
> >
> >>  >It starts:
> >>  >
> >>  >Come, loyal Britons all rejoice, with joyful Acclamation,
> >>  >And join with one united voice upon this just Occasion,
> >>  >To Admiral Vernon drink a health, likewise to each brave Fellow,
> >>  >Who with that noble Admiral was, at the taking of Porto Bello.
> >>
> >>  For what it may be worth, this fits very well the Babe of Bethlehem
> >  > tune, William Walker, Southern Harmony, p 78.  Moreover, the rhyme
> >  > scheme at the end of the first two lines is the same:
> >  >
> >>  Ye nations all, on you I call, Come hear this declaration,
> >  > And don't refuse this glorious news Of Jesus and salvation....
>
> This is the meter (8,7):
>
> -'-'-'-' -'-'-'-
>
> The first 3 1/2 double lines of "Come, loyal Britons" fit it exactly.
> The last half line is different: --'--'-'- .
>
> To make it fit the Babe of Bethlehem tune just sing two unaccented
> words where there is one in strict (8,7).  Thus, where the first line
> has
>
>   -    '  -  '  -  '  -
> with joyful Acclamation
>
> sing instead, for the fourth line,
>
> -   -   '  -   -  '  -  '  -
> at the taking of Porto Bello.
>
> To do this, halve the note for "with," duplicate the result, and sing
> "at the" to the resulting pair of notes (two notes in the same time
> as the one for "with").  Do the same for "-ful" and "-ing of."
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

Folks:I have just received from W.L. Smith Books in the UK a warning that a new
virus is in the wild, one not yet including in MacAfee or Norton AV.The virus, jdbgmgr.exe, "infects the address book of the recipient and
automatically re-transmits it.  There is a good chance you will find it on
your hard drive," the company cautioned.I did.And I have (unknowingly) retransmitted it.  It is important to search for
this virus as it sits dormant for 14 days and then damages (W.H. Smith's
word) your computer.  (I would guess it eats the registry or some terrible
thing.)To remove it in Windows:1)  Go to START and FIND or SEARCH option
2)  In the files/folders option type "jdbgmgr"
3)  Search your hard drive(s)
4)  When you find the virus -- do NOT open it, no matter how cute the
teddy bear icon
5)  Go to the edit tab and SELECT ALL to highlight the file without
opening it
6)  Go to the file tab and select DELETE
7)  Go to the recycle bin and delete it there as wellGood luck.Ed

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On Wed, Oct 30, 2002 at 02:04:01PM -0800, Ed Cray wrote:        [ ... ]> Folks:
>
> I have just received from W.L. Smith Books in the UK a warning that a new
> virus is in the wild, one not yet including in MacAfee or Norton AV.
>
> The virus, jdbgmgr.exe, "infects the address book of the recipient and
> automatically re-transmits it.  There is a good chance you will find it on
> your hard drive," the company cautioned.
>
> I did.        Yes -- I'm sure that you did find it.  It is a standard part of
the OS, and you've just deleted part of your Windows system.  (Not a
particularly critical one, but still a normal part.)> And I have (unknowingly) retransmitted it.  It is important to search for
> this virus as it sits dormant for 14 days and then damages (W.H. Smith's
> word) your computer.  (I would guess it eats the registry or some terrible
> thing.)        This is a bogus warning.  Visit the Symantec site:<http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jdbgmgr.exe.file.hoax.html>to read all about it.  (Symantec is the home of Norton Anti-Virus, and
is a trustworthy site on virus matters.)        They'll also tell you where to get a replacement for your now
deleted part of the OS.  It will be after the list of copies of the hoax
in many different languages.        You should e-mail a retraction, and a pointer to the symantec
site I supplied above, to all to whom you mailed the notice.        Good Luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Uh-oh.................this is a hoax, folks. Please do NOT delete this
module. It is a perfectly innocent piece of code that is required to run
Java on your Windows system. If you deleted it, you will have to restore it.Information about this hoax will be found at
http://hoaxbusters.ciac.org/HBMalCode.shtml#jdbgmgr
To repair your operating system, go to
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q322993What you should do if you receive such a message again is as follows.1. Do *not* obey its instructions - ever.
2. Check at Hoaxbusters or Virus Bulletin (www.virusbtn.com/hoax) to see if
the message is a hoax. It is almost certain to be a hoax, because the
anti-virus people are much quicker to respond to the real thing than you
might imagine. If you are still worried, forward the message to the Virus
Bulletin. You will get much quicker and safer help that way.
3. Reply to the sender of the message saying what you have done. If the
message is a hoax, tell them so and give them advice similar to this
message.Cheers
Simon----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 10:04 PM
Subject: Virus> Folks:
>
> I have just received from W.L. Smith Books in the UK a warning that a new
> virus is in the wild, one not yet including in MacAfee or Norton AV.
>
> The virus, jdbgmgr.exe, "infects the address book of the recipient and
> automatically re-transmits it.  There is a good chance you will find it on
> your hard drive," the company cautioned.
>
> I did.
>
> And I have (unknowingly) retransmitted it.  It is important to search for
> this virus as it sits dormant for 14 days and then damages (W.H. Smith's
> word) your computer.  (I would guess it eats the registry or some terrible
> thing.)
>
> To remove it in Windows:
>
> 1)  Go to START and FIND or SEARCH option
> 2)  In the files/folders option type "jdbgmgr"
> 3)  Search your hard drive(s)
> 4)  When you find the virus -- do NOT open it, no matter how cute the
> teddy bear icon
> 5)  Go to the edit tab and SELECT ALL to highlight the file without
> opening it
> 6)  Go to the file tab and select DELETE
> 7)  Go to the recycle bin and delete it there as well
>
> Good luck.
>
> Ed

HOLD IT with the virus!:  oftentimes the virus itself tells you to go toan
innocuous (or useful) file in your hard drive and destroy it.DO NOTHING TILL YOU'VE CHECKED WITH MICROSOFT, NORTON, MACAFEE, ETC.The message (from W.H. Smith?) may well be itself a virus (or urban
folklore, if you like).Jon Bartlett
(Sorry about the caps.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: Virus> Folks:
>
> I have just received from W.L. Smith Books in the UK a warning that a new
> virus is in the wild, one not yet including in MacAfee or Norton AV.
>
> The virus, jdbgmgr.exe, "infects the address book of the recipient and
> automatically re-transmits it.  There is a good chance you will find it on
> your hard drive," the company cautioned.
>
> I did.
>
> And I have (unknowingly) retransmitted it.  It is important to search for
> this virus as it sits dormant for 14 days and then damages (W.H. Smith's
> word) your computer.  (I would guess it eats the registry or some terrible
> thing.)
>
> To remove it in Windows:
>
> 1)  Go to START and FIND or SEARCH option
> 2)  In the files/folders option type "jdbgmgr"
> 3)  Search your hard drive(s)
> 4)  When you find the virus -- do NOT open it, no matter how cute the
> teddy bear icon
> 5)  Go to the edit tab and SELECT ALL to highlight the file without
> opening it
> 6)  Go to the file tab and select DELETE
> 7)  Go to the recycle bin and delete it there as well
>
> Good luck.
>
> Ed
>

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
Ewan McVicar, writes:> I should I think have pointed out before that the song text is
> viciously racist, sexist, and couched in the crude language of the
> soldier.  I described it as rather wonderful, but this is in part
> because I am interested in the account of the song, and sincerely
> wonder if the lyric is naive, the offensive social norms of the
> time, or of satiric intent - I hope the latter is the case, but
> deeply suspect I am kidding myself.My understanding of the matter is:  As in many countries (including
Britain), the national anthem was played at the end of every movie.
Thus, the soldiers heard it every time they went to the movies, and
were expected to wait politely.  In such a situation, the obvious
amusement is to sing along, being as offensive as you can.  The
soldiers had already had plenty of practice, since time immemorial,
doing the same with bugle calls.When I was in Scotland (1958-1959), "God Save the Queen" at the end of
the movie had been reduced to the first few bars.  The patriotic Scots
did their best to get out before it started.Incidentally (recalling an earlier posting in this thread), I believe
the Egyptian queen's name was Farida, not Fatima.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free,  :||
||:  but first it shall piss you off beyond belief.               :||

Joe:I assure you this is not a hoax.  Smith Books is a major book dealer
(airports, etc.).  Further, I found the virus on my computer.I also found not one, but two versions on my wife's computer.EdOn Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Joe Saltzman wrote:> Are you sure this isn't another virus hoax? lovejoe
>
> Ed Cray wrote:
> > Folks:
> >
> > I have just received from W.L. Smith Books in the UK a warning that a new
> > virus is in the wild, one not yet including in MacAfee or Norton AV.
> >
> > The virus, jdbgmgr.exe, "infects the address book of the recipient and
> > automatically re-transmits it.  There is a good chance you will find it on
> > your hard drive," the company cautioned.
> >
> > I did.
> >
> > And I have (unknowingly) retransmitted it.  It is important to search for
> > this virus as it sits dormant for 14 days and then damages (W.H. Smith's
> > word) your computer.  (I would guess it eats the registry or some terrible
> > thing.)
> >
> > To remove it in Windows:
> >
> > 1)  Go to START and FIND or SEARCH option
> > 2)  In the files/folders option type "jdbgmgr"
> > 3)  Search your hard drive(s)
> > 4)  When you find the virus -- do NOT open it, no matter how cute the
> > teddy bear icon
> > 5)  Go to the edit tab and SELECT ALL to highlight the file without
> > opening it
> > 6)  Go to the file tab and select DELETE
> > 7)  Go to the recycle bin and delete it there as well
> >
> > Good luck.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Folks:Let me apologize.  In all my 20 years of computing, I never thought
Microsoft would use a teddy-bear for an icon.  It appears that I have been
misled by W.H. Smith and Co., booksellers.Joe Saltzman first asked if this was a hoax.  And I was wrong to deny it.
It is, apparently, a fraud and a sham.  I have received two authoritative
references including the one below from a programmer of some experience
who advises how to restore this (apparently)
non-essential/none-too-critical piece of Microsoft software.Again, I can only apologize.  I blindly followed the bum advice of a big
corporation.As I did with my stock portfolio.Ed

Folks:I neglected to past in the advisory from Unix/DOS/Mac espert Don Nichols:        This is a bogus warning.  Visit the Symantec site:<http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jdbgmgr.exe.file.hoax.html>to read all about it.  (Symantec is the home of Norton Anti-Virus, and
is a trustworthy site on virus matters.)        They'll also tell you where to get a replacement for your now
deleted part of the OS.  It will be after the list of copies of the hoax
in many different languages.        You should e-mail a retraction, and a pointer to the symantec
site I supplied above, to all to whom you mailed the notice.        Good Luck,
                DoN.

I guess I'd better watch where I am when I put my foot in my mouth.
(Blush!) Sorry about that!  I downloaded the new Mac OS X version, and it does work -- although
the preferences are grayed out and playing a tune turns the lyrics
(the ones under the staff lines) into gibberish.Thank you!>Actually, I don't like Apple very much. Mor Microsoft. But..the
>latest edition of
>Digital Tradition  works very nicely on Mac OS up through the latest.
>  > Last time I looked, which I admit is a while, the Mac code on Digital
>>  Tradition crashed all over the place on my Mac. (I  think it last
>>  worked on Mac OS 8.0 -- Apple is up to 10.2.1 at the moment.)
>>  Naturally, I don't like Digital Tradition very much.
>>  --
>>  Alan Ackerman, [unmask]--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

>It doesn't have a real Mac interface, and it only does text,
>and it's a Classic app (I hope to move it to Carbon one of
>these days, but I still have to figure out how to use gcc
>under OS X). But it *will* work on a Mac. At least as long
>as you don't open the program notes for "American Pie."
>
>This doesn't solve the SongWrite problem, obviously.
>
>--
>Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
>1078 Colne Street
>Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
>651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
>The Ballad Index Web Site:
>http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.htmlNow how did you know that the last thing I looked up on Digital
Tradition was the program notes for "American Pie."?
(I suppose I could say I did it for one of my kids, but no one would
believe me!)
--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

I can only emphasize Simon's second point. The virus companies are very
fast - it's their business, they're world-wide, and they have
billion-dollar companies with thousands of computers depending on their
response speed.  Not to mention that these companies immediately report
any virus they encounter.The company I work for, and the product I work on, provides the means
for Symantec's alerts to their Platinum customers, as well as the
notifications for two other virus alerting companies.  I get at least a
dozen notifications a week of virus variants, worms, etc.  The only time
I've ever found a virus before they had information on it was Nimda,
which hit everyone at the same time.And as for fixing it - it's almost impossible for any individual to
diagnose a virus and recommend a fix before Symantec's teams accomplish
it.  Take *nobody's* advice on "repairs" except a virus company's!!-Don DuncanSimon Furey wrote:
>> What you should do if you receive such a message again is as follows.
>
> 1. Do *not* obey its instructions - ever.
> 2. Check at Hoaxbusters or Virus Bulletin (www.virusbtn.com/hoax) to see if
> the message is a hoax. It is almost certain to be a hoax, because the
> anti-virus people are much quicker to respond to the real thing than you
> might imagine. If you are still worried, forward the message to the Virus
> Bulletin. You will get much quicker and safer help that way.

----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Fineman <[unmask]><<When I was in Scotland (1958-1959), "God Save the Queen" at the end of
the movie had been reduced to the first few bars.  The patriotic Scots
did their best to get out before it started.>>Was it Ray Bradbury who wrote a short story on that theme, "The Anthem
Sprinters"?Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 10/30/02, Alan Ackerman wrote:>>It doesn't have a real Mac interface, and it only does text,
>>and it's a Classic app (I hope to move it to Carbon one of
>>these days, but I still have to figure out how to use gcc
>>under OS X). But it *will* work on a Mac. At least as long
>>as you don't open the program notes for "American Pie."
>>
>>This doesn't solve the SongWrite problem, obviously.
>>
>>--
>>Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
>>1078 Colne Street
>>Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
>>651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>>
>>The Ballad Index Web Site:
>>http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>
>Now how did you know that the last thing I looked up on Digital
>Tradition was the program notes for "American Pie."?
>(I suppose I could say I did it for one of my kids, but no one would
>believe me!)Well -- it follows that *I* looked them up, too, which caused
me to know. :-)It wasn't the last one I looked up, but it's the longest entry
I've found, and long enough that it hung up my Emergency DT
Replacement Software. So it seemed worthy of a joke.Only to find that it's irrelevant, because of this unannounced
upgrade. (I thought I had checked since last spring, but I'll
admit that I had pretty well stopped looking.)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Hi-
Glad you got it (somewhat) working. There's a font for printing music included
in the package--is that installed?dickAlan Ackerman wrote:> I guess I'd better watch where I am when I put my foot in my mouth.
> (Blush!) Sorry about that!
>
>   I downloaded the new Mac OS X version, and it does work -- although
> the preferences are grayed out and playing a tune turns the lyrics
> (the ones under the staff lines) into gibberish.
>
> Thank you!
>
> >Actually, I don't like Apple very much. Mor Microsoft. But..the
> >latest edition of
> >Digital Tradition  works very nicely on Mac OS up through the latest.
> >  > Last time I looked, which I admit is a while, the Mac code on Digital
> >>  Tradition crashed all over the place on my Mac. (I  think it last
> >>  worked on Mac OS 8.0 -- Apple is up to 10.2.1 at the moment.)
> >>  Naturally, I don't like Digital Tradition very much.
> >>  --
> >>  Alan Ackerman, [unmask]
>
> --
> Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

>Of course, it sings jes' fine to Yankee Doodle.And any other 8,7 tune, provided that accomodations are made for the
"extra" syllables in the 4th line.>
>John Garst wrote:
>
>>  >I had trouble fitting the last line to the tune.
>>  >
>  > >Ed--
john garst    [unmask]

Patient People:Again I apologize for inadvertantly alarming the list with a hoax virus.However, Stephen Wade -- and perhaps some others -- followed instructions
and did delete the "Teddy Bear Virus-That-Ain't."  He asks how to restore
order.Don Nichols provides the answer below:Ed---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:42:25 -0500
From: DoN. Nichols <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: VirusOn Wed, Oct 30, 2002 at 02:04:01PM -0800, Ed Cray wrote:        [ ... ]> Folks:
>
> I have just received from W.L. Smith Books in the UK a warning that a new
> virus is in the wild, one not yet including in MacAfee or Norton AV.
>
> The virus, jdbgmgr.exe, "infects the address book of the recipient and
> automatically re-transmits it.  There is a good chance you will find it on
> your hard drive," the company cautioned.
>
> I did.        Yes -- I'm sure that you did find it.  It is a standard part of
the OS, and you've just deleted part of your Windows system.  (Not a
particularly critical one, but still a normal part.)> And I have (unknowingly) retransmitted it.  It is important to search for
> this virus as it sits dormant for 14 days and then damages (W.H. Smith's
> word) your computer.  (I would guess it eats the registry or some terrible
> thing.)        This is a bogus warning.  Visit the Symantec site:<http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jdbgmgr.exe.file.hoax.html>to read all about it.  (Symantec is the home of Norton Anti-Virus, and
is a trustworthy site on virus matters.)        They'll also tell you where to get a replacement for your now
deleted part of the OS.  It will be after the list of copies of the hoax
in many different languages.        You should e-mail a retraction, and a pointer to the symantec
site I supplied above, to all to whom you mailed the notice.        Good Luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On 10/31/02, dick greenhaus wrote:>It seems to me that storing the information in any retrievable format is what's important. I like ASCII, myself--it's about the only format that isn't apt to go away in the forseeable future. Further, I find it hard to believe that any future publishing or word-processing program won't accept ASCII.
>
>As far as music is concerned, any ASCII representation of music, such as SongWright or ABC can be translated  to just about any format, such as MIDI. Incidentally, both of these formats can be sight-read with a modest amount of practise.
>
>If OCR editing is too much work--and it shouldn't be, with a reasonably clean copy of the original--TIFF or BMP are the most universal formats I've encountered. If I have a TIFF file that I want to deal with, I'll convert it to text.But, as already discussed, TIFF is not a format. It's a specification
under which formats can be defined. There is a universal TIFF format --
but it's uncompressed. The most efficient TIFF format is LZW, but
not all TIFF readers can read it, because it's copyrighted. A good
alternative is run length TIFF, which almost everything can read --
but Photoshop doesn't do RLE TIFF. Which means that it's not a
viable alternative.BMP suffers the same problem as uncompressed TIFF: It's too BIG.
It has no compression at all. This is simply not acceptable for
web use. (If you're putting it on a CD, it's another matter.)
I've been arguing against PDF, but if the choice is PDF or
.BMP, give me PDF any day.Again, it will come down to the nature of the document. A piece
on (say) Armenian folksong can't be done in ASCII, because ASCII
doesn't include the Armenian alphabet. This is something of a
concern even for French or German. And ASCII doesn't support
images.Ultimately, we will have to follow a "most suitable format"
policy. That will certainly mean PDF or HTML in some cases,
and an image format (GIF if possible, I would say) in others.
ASCII may be adequate in some cases (though it's worth noting
that ASCII isn't actually a true standard; Mac, PC, and unix
ASCII are all different in the ways they handle line breaks).But what we want of a format, ideally, is that it is viewable
online (so you can "try before you buy" -- i.e. read the
first page before you download the whole thing) and that it
not use too much bandwidth. That says, for text, ASCII, HTML,
or PDF; and for images, JPEG if suitable (for a photo of
a musician, it's suitable), GIF if JPEG isn't suitable (a
page of text is not a candidate for JPEG; neither is a line
drawing), or PDF for people who can't produce GIF or JPEG
(or who have the original art and want the best possible
reproduction).
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Arising from the earlier correspondence re. virus hoaxes, there's one
other website which I'd recommend to anyone interested:
www.snopes2.com.  Snopes is dedicated to researching hoaxes
(including a dedicated section on virus hoaxes), 'urban legends' (which
are now often cyberlegends, not urban in any meaningful sense),
rumours, and the like.  Good for anyone interested in this kind of folklore
(and not just electronic lore, plenty on other kinds of rumours);
sometimes I've been very impressed with the erudition that goes into
some of the entries, and there's nothing sensationalist or sloppy about it.
(And they're quite willing to say 'case not proven' when that's what the
evidence suggests.) Many's the time I've checked out an appeal to sign
some e-mail petition or other such bit of modern ephemera and come
away enlightened. I recommend it!Jeff Kallen
Trinity College Dublin

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<BMP suffers the same problem as uncompressed TIFF: It's too BIG.
It has no compression at all. This is simply not acceptable for
web use. (If you're putting it on a CD, it's another matter.)
I've been arguing against PDF, but if the choice is PDF or
.BMP, give me PDF any day.>>It's worth noting, however, that in my experience BMP files zip down very
efficiently using pkzip; typically a black-on-white BMP file will zip to 2%
of its unzipped size. That doesn't solve the "try before you buy" problem,
but it certainly makes downloading quick. Perhaps a lossy format such as JPG
for a quick look, and zipped BMP for downloading? Plus ASCII for the text
and ABC or MIDI for the music?*That* ought to cover all the bases.Peace,
Paul

If you should encounter the book,Creek-Music Ozark Mountain Ballads
by Diane Taylor
Little Rock, Arkansas: August House, 1981for sale, be forewarned.  This is a book contains original poetry,
not traditional ballads.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 12:16:43PM -0600, Paul Stamler wrote:> From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>
> <<BMP suffers the same problem as uncompressed TIFF: It's too BIG.
> It has no compression at all. This is simply not acceptable for
> web use. (If you're putting it on a CD, it's another matter.)
> I've been arguing against PDF, but if the choice is PDF or
> .BMP, give me PDF any day.>>
>
> It's worth noting, however, that in my experience BMP files zip down very
> efficiently using pkzip; typically a black-on-white BMP file will zip to 2%
> of its unzipped size.        That may be -- but they are the native image format of Windows,
and require other programs to view on any other system.  .JPG, .TIF,
.GIF and such are all equally at home on all systems.        And pkzip itself is a Windows/DOS program -- though there are
compatible programs available for other platforms, they are things which
have to be hunted down -- and pkzip adds features from time to time,
which other programs won't have for a while.  Though I guess it is
pretty stable by now. :-)>                       That doesn't solve the "try before you buy" problem,
> but it certainly makes downloading quick. Perhaps a lossy format such as JPG
> for a quick look, and zipped BMP for downloading? Plus ASCII for the text
> and ABC or MIDI for the music?        Of the two, I prefer ABC, because I don't have a MIDI program
for unix -- though I guess that they are available somewhere.  But MIDI
is really an *interface* specification -- between computers or keyboards
and electronic instruments -- not a format for music exchange.  As such,
it makes assumptions about what may be available to play the music.        ABC, in contrast, is *designed* for sharing tunes in an ASCII
compatible way, not for playing electronic musical instruments, so it
should be the better choice -- and programs are available -- *free* --
for most platforms.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 10/31/02, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>
><<BMP suffers the same problem as uncompressed TIFF: It's too BIG.
>It has no compression at all. This is simply not acceptable for
>web use. (If you're putting it on a CD, it's another matter.)
>I've been arguing against PDF, but if the choice is PDF or
>.BMP, give me PDF any day.>>
>
>It's worth noting, however, that in my experience BMP files zip down very
>efficiently using pkzip; typically a black-on-white BMP file will zip to 2%
>of its unzipped size. That doesn't solve the "try before you buy" problem,
>but it certainly makes downloading quick. Perhaps a lossy format such as JPG
>for a quick look, and zipped BMP for downloading? Plus ASCII for the text
>and ABC or MIDI for the music?
>
>*That* ought to cover all the bases.Except the problem of getting people to do all that work. :-)How well the .BMP compresses will depend very much on the
original. Scans probably won't be *quite* as compressible as
original art, simply because they're noisier. But this applies
to TIFF also.It is worth noting that TIFF is an open standard, and .BMP
is a Microsoft product. I doubt Microsoft will change it
(it's too incredibly simple to bother) -- but I would argue
for the open standard given the choice.If for no other reason than that my favorite image viewer
can't read .BMP files. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On 10/31/02, John Garst wrote:>If you should encounter the book,
>
>Creek-Music Ozark Mountain Ballads
>by Diane Taylor
>Little Rock, Arkansas: August House, 1981
>
>for sale, be forewarned.  This is a book contains original poetry,
>not traditional ballads.Should we be compiling a list of these?For that matter, should we be compiling a Ballad-L FAQ
answering things like that?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I guess that whay I was saying is based on the concept that storing data and
presenting data don't have to be in the same format. If the master is stored in,
say, BMP it's a trivial matter to ZIP it or STUFF it, depending on the computer
operating system  your final reader uses, whether it be Mac or Windows, or Unix
or Atari. And the data won't be screwed up when somebody introduces Windows XXXXP
or Mac OS 99.Space isn't really a problem for storage nowadays--just for transmission.dick greenhaus"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:> On 10/31/02, Paul Stamler wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
> >
> ><<BMP suffers the same problem as uncompressed TIFF: It's too BIG.
> >It has no compression at all. This is simply not acceptable for
> >web use. (If you're putting it on a CD, it's another matter.)
> >I've been arguing against PDF, but if the choice is PDF or
> >.BMP, give me PDF any day.>>
> >
> >It's worth noting, however, that in my experience BMP files zip down very
> >efficiently using pkzip; typically a black-on-white BMP file will zip to 2%
> >of its unzipped size. That doesn't solve the "try before you buy" problem,
> >but it certainly makes downloading quick. Perhaps a lossy format such as JPG
> >for a quick look, and zipped BMP for downloading? Plus ASCII for the text
> >and ABC or MIDI for the music?
> >
> >*That* ought to cover all the bases.
>
> Except the problem of getting people to do all that work. :-)
>
> How well the .BMP compresses will depend very much on the
> original. Scans probably won't be *quite* as compressible as
> original art, simply because they're noisier. But this applies
> to TIFF also.
>
> It is worth noting that TIFF is an open standard, and .BMP
> is a Microsoft product. I doubt Microsoft will change it
> (it's too incredibly simple to bother) -- but I would argue
> for the open standard given the choice.
>
> If for no other reason than that my favorite image viewer
> can't read .BMP files. :-)
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
Paul Stamler, writes:> From: Joe Fineman <[unmask]>
>
> <<When I was in Scotland (1958-1959), "God Save the Queen" at the
> end of the movie had been reduced to the first few bars.  The
> patriotic Scots did their best to get out before it started.>>
>
> Was it Ray Bradbury who wrote a short story on that theme, "The
> Anthem Sprinters"?I would be delighted to know.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  To be born is to fall down the chimney of a strange house.  :||

>Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
>Paul Stamler, writes:
>
>>  From: Joe Fineman <[unmask]>
>>
>>  <<When I was in Scotland (1958-1959), "God Save the Queen" at the
>>  end of the movie had been reduced to the first few bars.  The
>>  patriotic Scots did their best to get out before it started.>>
>>
>>  Was it Ray Bradbury who wrote a short story on that theme, "The
>>  Anthem Sprinters"?
>
>I would be delighted to know.
>--
>---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
>||:  To be born is to fall down the chimney of a strange house.  :||Yes, it was Bradbury and it was inspired by the people rushing for
the exits as the Anthem played at the end of the movies.Stephanie Crouch

It wasn't just the Scots, nor was it just in Bradbury. It happened in
England too. When I was a kid we all bunked off sharpish at the end of the
Saturday matinée to avoid the National Anthem. The cinema manager used to
shout at us, but we didn't care. The more he tried to lay down the law, the
more we were determined to give him a hard time. Simon----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephanie Crouch" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Egyptian Anthem, Hamish Henderson Song> >Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
> >Paul Stamler, writes:
> >
> >>  From: Joe Fineman <[unmask]>
> >>
> >>  <<When I was in Scotland (1958-1959), "God Save the Queen" at the
> >>  end of the movie had been reduced to the first few bars.  The
> >>  patriotic Scots did their best to get out before it started.>>
> >>
> >>  Was it Ray Bradbury who wrote a short story on that theme, "The
> >>  Anthem Sprinters"?
> >
> >I would be delighted to know.
> >--
> >---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
> >
> >||:  To be born is to fall down the chimney of a strange house.  :||
>
> Yes, it was Bradbury and it was inspired by the people rushing for
> the exits as the Anthem played at the end of the movies.
>
> Stephanie Crouch
>

I installed DigiTrad, per instructions. I also found an older copy of
DigiTrad and de-installed that, per the debugging instructions. I
suppose it's rather un-Mac-like of me to read instructions, but I do.>Hi-
>Glad you got it (somewhat) working. There's a font for printing music included
>in the package--is that installed?
>
>dick
>
>Alan Ackerman wrote:
>
>>  I guess I'd better watch where I am when I put my foot in my mouth.
>>  (Blush!) Sorry about that!
>>
>>    I downloaded the new Mac OS X version, and it does work -- although
>>  the preferences are grayed out and playing a tune turns the lyrics
>>  (the ones under the staff lines) into gibberish.
>>
>  > Thank you!--
Alan Ackerman, [unmask]

At this sitehttp://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?toddbib:61:./temp/~ammem_I0tT::you can listen to Jim Holbert sing "Casey Jones."I have not been able to decipher a word in the fourth line of the third verse:"I'm a **** engineer and I don't have to work."Anybody?By the way, Holbert uses his own tune.  He said he got the text from
a "ballet" given to him by a friend.  It is not clear whether this
was handwritten or printed, but I suspect handwritten.  This version
gets the name of the railroad (IC, Illinois Central) right.--
john garst    [unmask]

I thought it was "brave".
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 12:52 PM
Subject: Casey Jones> At this site
>
> http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?toddbib:61:./temp/~ammem_I0tT::
>
> you can listen to Jim Holbert sing "Casey Jones."
>
> I have not been able to decipher a word in the fourth line of the third
verse:
>
> "I'm a **** engineer and I don't have to work."
>
> Anybody?
>
>
> By the way, Holbert uses his own tune.  He said he got the text from
> a "ballet" given to him by a friend.  It is not clear whether this
> was handwritten or printed, but I suspect handwritten.  This version
> gets the name of the railroad (IC, Illinois Central) right.
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

>I thought it was "brave".
>NormI think you're right, though the pronunciation is a little odd.What does it mean,"I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."Is this a derisive comment on Cayce's personality?
--
john garst    [unmask]

... if I may. I've been listening to the Greenbriar Boys' "Roll On John,"
one of the most beautifully haunting songs I've ever heard. But there's
one word I can't pick up even after repeated listening. The verse goes:I asked that girl / to be my wife,
She _____ and she ?said / and she begin to cry.FWIW, I don't have the liner notes (should they have any enlightenment);
it's a cassette Ralph R. made for me a couple years before he died. Even
the LP scratches are holy (those who knew RR will understand).Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
that sea song refer to. I'm disgracefully unschooled in locating websites
that might have the answer; if any listmember can steer me to one, I
promise to get clued-in & not pester the list w/ such questions.All aid gratefully received,Regards,Michael Bell

There's a thread on Mudcat (at least one) where this is discussed at
some length. See:http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=34080#458781John Roberts.>
>Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
>that sea song refer to. I'm disgracefully unschooled in locating websites
>that might have the answer; if any listmember can steer me to one, I
>promise to get clued-in & not pester the list w/ such questions.
>
>All aid gratefully received,
>
>Regards,
>
>Michael Bell

One of the most vivid memories I have of Ralph is his singing "Roll On
John," just him alone and his guitar, in a dim quiet corner at a party in
Washington, D.C.   "Haunting" is the right word, both for the song and for
the performance.  It seemed very special to him, too, as I remember from
watching his face.JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL 61820-6903
phone: (217) 244 4681
email: [unmask]
www.press.uillinois.edu----- Original Message -----
From: "Bell Michael" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 5:15 PM
Subject: Exploiting the Casey Jones thread,> ... I've been listening to the Greenbriar Boys' "Roll On John,"
> one of the most beautifully haunting songs I've ever heard.
...
> Michael Bell
>

Michael and friends:I frist heard the shanty "Blood Red Roses" in 1955 on an LP.  And I too
wondered just what it meant.For the record, I do not think such inquires are remiss on this listserve.EdOn Fri, 4 Oct 2002, Bell Michael wrote:> ... if I may. I've been listening to the Greenbriar Boys' "Roll On John,"
> one of the most beautifully haunting songs I've ever heard. But there's
> one word I can't pick up even after repeated listening. The verse goes:
>
> I asked that girl / to be my wife,
> She _____ and she ?said / and she begin to cry.
>
> FWIW, I don't have the liner notes (should they have any enlightenment);
> it's a cassette Ralph R. made for me a couple years before he died. Even
> the LP scratches are holy (those who knew RR will understand).
>
> Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
> that sea song refer to. I'm disgracefully unschooled in locating websites
> that might have the answer; if any listmember can steer me to one, I
> promise to get clued-in & not pester the list w/ such questions.
>
> All aid gratefully received,
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael Bell
>

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]><<I frist heard the shanty "Blood Red Roses" in 1955 on an LP.  And I too
wondered just what it meant.For the record, I do not think such inquires are remiss on this listserve.>>Nor do I -- they're part of why we're here.According to the Traditional Ballad Index, Doerflinger thinks the chorus
(often sung as, "Go down, you bunch of roses, go down") is from the same
root as "The Bonny Bunch of Roses" -- England, Ireland and Scotland vs.
Napoleon. Editor Bob Waltz expresses his doubts, and I go along with him,
but it's an odd coincidence.Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
>that sea song refer to. I'm disgracefully unschooled in locating websites
>that might have the answer; if any listmember can steer me to one, I
>promise to get clued-in & not pester the list w/ such questions.This might be relevant:http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v286n21/ffull/jbk1205-4.html
--
john garst    [unmask]

>Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
>that sea song refer to.Also,In petitionHail, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, my Mother Mary, hail!  At your
feet I humbly kneel to offer you a Crown of Roses - blood red roses
to remind you of the passion of your Divine Son, with whom you so
fully partook of its bitterness - each rose recalling to you a holy
mystery, each ten bound together with my petition for a particular
grace.  Oh Holy Queen, dispenser of God's graces, and Mother of all
who invoke you!  You can't look at my gift and fail to see its
binding.  As you receive my gift, so will you receive my petition,
from your bounty you will give me the favor I so earnestly and
trustingly seek.  I despair of nothing that I ask of you.  Show
yourself, my Mother!http://www.psgod.com/rosary.htm
--
john garst    [unmask]

>Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
>that sea song refer to.At http://celtic.relics.com/songbook/pageb.htm"Red Roses" refer to British soldiers.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>>I thought it was "brave".
>>Norm
>
>I think you're right, though the pronunciation is a little odd.
>
>What does it mean,
>
>"I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."
>
>Is this a derisive comment on Cayce's personality?This idea is reinforced by Holbert's penultimate verse:Casey went to heaven right a-straight on from here,
And he told Saint Peter he's an engineer,
"You've run your engine so brave and bold,
"I'll send you back to shoveling coal."It seems to me that the author of this version didn't think very
highly of Jones.
--
john garst    [unmask]

 From the Blankenship broadside:John Henry's woman heard he was dead,
She could not rest on her bed,
She got up at midnight, caught that No. 4 train,
"I am going where John Henry fell dead."In reviewing work on "Casey Jones," I've been reminded that Cayce was
killed as he drove the Illinois Central's train No. 1, the Cannonball
Express.  No. 1 ran south from Chicago to New Orleans.  No. 4 was the
return trip, running north over the same route.  Cayce was the
engineer for a section of each of these runs.John Henry is said to have been born a slave near Raymond, Crystal
Springs, and Jackson, Mississippi.  Presumably, many of his friends
and relatives lived there.  I don't know when the IC put in the
Memphis-New Orleans run and started calling it "No. 1" and "No. 4,"
but if it was as early as 1887, then it is plausible that someone
might have started a train trip from Crystal Springs, MS, which is on
the IC line, to Birmingham, AL, by staring north on the Cannonball,
the No. 4 train, just as the Blankenship broadside says.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>What does it mean,
>
>"I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."
>
>Is this a derisive comment on Cayce's personality?I suspect a modification of the floating line, "I'm a natural-born easeman,
I don't have to work" (easeman = someone with great sexual talent). Add to
that the "brave engineer" phrase from the first line of the regular "Casey
Jones" ("Come all you rounders if you want to hear/The story of a brave
engineer") and you have a nice ambiguous line.Peace,
Paul

On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Fred McCormick wrote in part:> I am no expert in children's folklore, so I'm not about to make any alarming
> claims. However the best guess I can make is that it is derived from a
> Trinidadian children's game song called Coming Down With a Bunch of Roses. I
> suspect there may be European antecedants, but the song appears on Rounder CD
> 1716 :Caribbean Voyage: Brown Girl in the Ring, where it is sung to what is
> recognisably a version of the Blood Red Roses tune.
>
> It is real chicken and egg stuff to ask which came first, but the title of
> the Caribbean song seems to make more sense, to me at at any rate.
>
In _Brown Girl in the Ring,_ Alan Lomax, J.D. Elder and Bess Lomax Hawes
surmise that "Caribbean sailors not only learned Anglo-American chanteys
but added many island-born sea songs to the international chantey
repertory... It is quite possible that the children's song game "Coming
Down with a Bunch of Roses" is a children's remembrance of the rare and
beautiful British work chantey [that begins] `Go down, you blood red
roses, go down...'"  (pp. 16-17)Ed

Plausible-but I wonder how that particular phrase with that particular meaning wound up in a 19th century shanty, Is there any evidence of currency during the intervening years?For every question, there is an explanation that's simple, clear and wrong.dick greenhaus
>
> From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> Date: 2002/10/05 Sat AM 08:50:14 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Exploiting the Casey Jones thread,
>
> >Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
> >that sea song refer to. I'm disgracefully unschooled in locating websites
> >that might have the answer; if any listmember can steer me to one, I
> >promise to get clued-in & not pester the list w/ such questions.
>
> This might be relevant:
>
> http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v286n21/ffull/jbk1205-4.html
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi!        Here I am again! Ebay seems moderately busy at the moment. Here
is the weekly list.        SONGSTERS        910562624 - The AMERICAN SONGSTER No. 1, 1907, $5 (ends
Oct-08-02 08:53:46)        1567493447 - Harrigan & Harts "The Muddy Day, Songster." $9.99
(ends Oct-08-02 17:54:44 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        910074494 - 3 Bradley Kincaid songbooks in one lot, $9.99 (ends
Oct-06-02 06:53:41 PDT)        1566874808 - The Oral Tradition of the American West by
Cunningham, 1990, $5 (ends Oct-06-02 08:18:21 PDT)        910136611 - AMERICAN BALLADS AND SONGS, COLLECTED AND EDITED BY
LOUIS POUND, 1972 reprint, $4.99 (ends Oct-06-02 11:43:19 PDT)        910180963 - American Negro Songs by John W. Work, date not
given, $1 w/reserve (ends Oct-06-02 14:24:46 PDT)        910184324 - lot of sheet music and 3 songbooks (The books are of
considerably more interest.) $9.99 (ends Oct-06-02 14:37:37 PDT)        1567007572 - CASEY JONES and other Ballads of the Mining West,
collected by Duncan Emrich, 1942, $2.45 (ends Oct-06-02 16:22:07 PDT)        1567251226 - Ballads Migrant in New England by Flanders and
Olney, 1953, $3 (ends Oct-07-02 16:15:00 PDT)
        (also 1567402430 $4 (ends Oct-08-02 10:46:57 PDT)        1567253601 - Folksongs of Florida, collected and edited by Alton
C. Morris, 1980 reprint, $9.99 (ends Oct-07-02 16:28:55 PDT)        911337834 - Songs of the Pioneers by Brumbley, 1970, $2.75 (ends
Oct-07-02 18:28:38 PDT)        910499269 - SMITH'S COLLECTION OF MOUNTAIN BALLADS AND COWBOY
SONGS, 1932, $3 (ends Oct-07-02 20:44:43 PDT)        1567417664 - Anglo-American Folksong Style by Abrahams and Foss,
1968, $19.99 (ends Oct-08-02 11:45:29 PDT)        1567419207 - WHITE SPIRITUALS IN THE SOUTHERN UPLANDS by
Jackson, 1965, $49.99 (ends Oct-08-02 11:51:49 PDT)        1567907293 - The Viking Book of Folk Ballads of the English
Speaking World, edited by Friedman, 1982, $5.99 (ends Oct-08-02 12:52:51
PDT)        1566971625 - Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman by Doerflinger,
1972 edition, $9.89 (ends Oct-09-02 13:56:54 PDT)        1567020968 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends. Ed. George Korson,
1960 edition, $8 (ends Oct-09-02 17:22:05 PDT)        1568182379 - The Ballad Literature and Popular Music of the
Olden Time by Chappell, 2 volumes, 1880's edition, $159.95! (ends
Oct-11-02 17:11:24 PDT)        1567818207 - MUSIC AND TRADITION IN EARLY INDUSTRIAL LANCASHIRE
1780-1840 by Elbourne, 1980, 5 GBP (ends Oct-13-02 07:01:51 PDT)        911134925 - Oxford Book of Sea Songs, edited by Palmer, 1986,
$5.99 (ends Oct-13-02 18:03:29 PDT)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Not sure about the meaning.  Maybe it's tongue in cheek:  I'm a "BRAVE
ENGINEER"!  I don't have to work!!
Just guessing
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: Casey Jones> >I thought it was "brave".
> >Norm
>
> I think you're right, though the pronunciation is a little odd.
>
> What does it mean,
>
> "I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."
>
> Is this a derisive comment on Cayce's personality?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

Hi!        Another week - another list!        SONGSTER        721906756 - The Barnum and Bailey Greatest Show On Earth
Songster, 1902, $24.50 (ends Oct-14-02 10:47:37 PDT)        912459134 - The Ideal Songster, 1930's?, $3 (ends Oct-16-02
18:51:10 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        1568153651 - The Shaker Spiritual by Patterson, paperback,
$40.42 (ends Oct-11-02 14:10:55 PDT)        911786779 - English Folk Song some conclusions by Cecil Sharp,
Revised by Maud Karpekes, 1972, 5.50 GBP (ends Oct-11-02 18:42:16 PDT)        911360789 - RUSTY GILL - COWBOY SONGS, MOUNTAIN BALLADS, 1941,
$9.99 (ends Oct-11-02 20:19:29 PDT)        911391686 - GREAT DAY COMING: FOLK MUSIC AND THE AMERICAN LEFT
by Denisoff, 1971, $24.99 (ends Oct-12-02 03:59:10 PDT)        1568291201 - Barbershops, Bullets, and Ballads, compiled by
Studwell & Schueneman, 1999, $14 (ends Oct-12-02 09:09:36 PDT)        1568425481 - Humor in American Song by Loesser, 1942, $9.99
(ends Oct-12-02 20:24:48 PDT)        1568962425 - 9 issues of Western Folklore, 1974-79, $9 (ends
Oct-12-02 21:34:18 PDT)        1568561355 - Drinking Songs, JACOB SCHMIDT BREWING COMPANY,
$1.25 (ends Oct-13-02 11:48:18 PDT)        1569068362 - G.I. Songs, edited by Palmer, 1944, $3.99 (ends
Oct-13-02 12:27:15 PDT)        1569080816 - Read 'Em and Weep. The Songs You Forgot to Remember
by Spaeth, 1927, $9.95 (ends Oct-13-02 13:17:07 PDT)        1568606105 - RELIQUES OF ANCIENT ENGLISH POETRY by Percy, 1847
edition, volume 3 only, $34.50 (ends Oct-13-02 14:08:15 PDT)        1568649314 - Handsome Heroines: Women as Men in Folklore by
Husain, 1996, $5 (ends Oct-13-02 16:57:41 PDT)        911828800 - Asher Sizemore and Little Jimmie's Family Circle
Songs, 1938, $4.99 (ends Oct-13-02 20:53:06 PDT)        1568061322 - Frontier Ballads by Finger, 1927, $25 (ends
Oct-14-02 06:04:49 PDT)        911925391 - Hank Keene?s 1936 Edition Of Original Mountain,
Cowboy, Hill-Billy and Folk Songs, $9.99 (ends Oct-14-02 11:12:18 PDT)        1568869337 - SONGS AND BALLADS OF SPORT AND PASTIME by
Tomlinson, 1896, $10 (ends Oct-14-02 14:10:36 PDT)        912088285 - Bawdy British Folk Songs by McCarthy, 1972, $8 (ends
Oct-15-02 04:26:07 PDT)        1568322561 - Folk Scene magazine, October 1965, 5 GBP (ends
Oct-15-02 11:35:42 PDT)        912237249 - OUTLAW BALLADS, LEGENDS & LORE, $5.95 (ends
Oct-15-02 18:16:42 PDT)        912247297 - 2 Asher Sizemore and Little Jimmie songbooks, Hearth
& Home songs and Mountain Ballads, 1933-34, $7.50 (ends Oct-15-02
 18:55:10 PDT)        912272523 - Smith's Collection of Mountain Ballads and Cowboy
Songs, 1932, $4.99 (ends Oct-15-02 20:33:27 PDT)        911553856 - 2 books in one lot (The Scottish Students' Song
Book, The British Students' Songbook, and The Minstrelsy of the Scottish
Highlands), $10.49 (ends Oct-15-02 20:35:08 PDT)        912281317 - 3 songbooks in one lot; BOONE COUNTY JAMBOREE is the
one of the most interest although the seller is emphasizing a hootenany
songbook from the 60's, $3.50 (ends Oct-15-02 21:32:26 PDT)        912281894 - Folk Songs of Old New England by Linscott, 1939, $7
(ends Oct-15-02 21:37:56 PDT)        1569293424 - Ballads of the Great West by Fife, 1970, $9.99
(ends Oct-16-02 12:24:03 PDT)        1568595440 - The American Songbag by Sandburg, 1927, $7.50 (ends
Oct-16-02 13:35:37 PDT)        912027607 - Asher Sizemore and Little Jimmie - Songs of the
Soil, 1937, $4.99 (ends Oct-17-02 19:06:45 PDT)        912092808 - Reliques of Ancient English Poetry by Percy, 3
volumes in one, 1870's edition, 14.99 GBP (ends Oct-18-02 05:19:06 PDT)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Norm and others,As far as I can tell, the popular song, "Casey Jones," by Seibert and
Newton, was published in 1909 (see Long Steel Rail).  Yet, all over
the WWW one finds 1902.  For example, at
http://www.contemplator.com/america/casyjones.html
you find:*******
The first Casey Jones ballad was written by Wallace Saunders, Casey's
African-American engine wiper. It was sung to the tune Jimmy Jones,
which was popular at the time. Engineer William Leighton heard the
song. His brothers Frank and Bert, vaudeville performers, polished
the song, added a chorus, and began to perform it in their act. When
the ballad was published in 1902 the words were credited to T.
Lawrence Seibert, and Eddie Newton was credited with the music.
*******Freeman Hubbard states, in Railroad Avenue (1945, p 19):*******
There is some doubt as to the exact process by which this folklore
was transmuted into a national song hit.  We do know that there were
several adaptations of the original lament.  One was sung on the
vaudeville stage by Bert and Frank Leighton, brothers of an Illinois
Central engineer named Bill Leighton.  In 1902 it was finally
published, and in 1903 it was listed among the ten best sellers in
sheet music.  In that year, three years after the Vaughn collision,
the Southern Music Company of Los Angeles put out a song sheet
entitled "Casey Jones, the Brave Engineer" [the Seibert-Newton song]
....
*******Hubbard seems to have messed up his dates on the Seibert-Newton song,
and I suppose that he could have messed up similarly on the
Leightons' song.  My problem is that I can't find the Leightons'
song.  Is this a ghost?  I don't find any mention of it in Long Steel
Rail or anywhere else I've looked.
--
john garst    [unmask]

One additional bit of information - I just did a google search for
Seibert +"casey jones."  I found a number of references to the 1909
date.  Perhaps the most intriguing was a hit from the "Madison County
Journal" from 2/4/99  that says:"By 1909,when "The Ballad of Casey Jones" was copyrighted (with words
credited to T. Lawrence Seibert and music to Eddie Newton, the ballad
had become a ..."Unfortunately that's the end of the highlight, and I can't access the
source.  The suggestion is that the ballad was well known by - and
before -  1909 but actually copyrighted in 1909.There are some other interesting hits - in particular a page from a
University of Arizona site.Lew Becker

At 7:10 PM -0400 10/10/02, Lewis Becker wrote:
>Unfortunately that's the end of the highlight, and I can't access the
>source.  The suggestion is that the ballad was well known by - and
>before -  1909 but actually copyrighted in 1909.        The full item reads:'Casey Jones' penned in CantonBy JIM LACEY, Jr.Canton Rotary Club History Bit        As far as I have been able to find out, the ballard about Casey
Jones, is the only song ever written in Canton by a Canton man to gain
national fame. Wallace Saunders, an illiterate black engine wiper in the
Canton roundhouse, made up the ditty and it became a national craze inside
of 10 years.        I find it somewhat hard to believe, but in a story about Casey
Jones, the American Legion magazine in its March 1966 issue said that no
less a person than Carl Sandburg, the famed poet, called it "the greatest
ballad ever written on the North American continent."        After Casey Jones died in a railroad wreck at Vaughan on April 30,
1900, his friend, Saunders was grieving and started chanting a ditty about
Casey, set to an old song. Saunders worked at the Illinois Central
roundhouse in Canton, which was located, until about 1962, just south of
where Barnett Phillips has his lumber company now. William Leighton, an
Illinois Central engineer, heard Saunders chant the song, wrote it down and
passed it on to his brothers, Bert and Frank Leighton, and they used it on
the Orpheum vaudeville circuit. By 1909, when "The Ballad of Casey Jones"
was copyrighted (with words credited to T. Lawrence Seibert and music to
Eddie Newton), the ballad had became a national craze. It's hard for us
today to realize what heroes railway locomotive engineers were about the
turn of the century, and it's also hard for youngsters today to understand
such a craze, since this sort of thing has sort of passed out of style.
Gone out of the picture are national fads such as the one over the ballad
of Davey Crockett, when half of the kids in the U. S. were wearing Davy
Crockett coonskin caps.        But until this last generation or so, everybody in the United
States at least knew about the Casey Jones ballard and many of them could
sing it. It never made Canton famous, for Saunders didn't get credit for
the song. He didn't even get any money. It is said that all that he got out
of the song was a bottle of gin.

        The following comment cames from the Jackson Sun News by W. MATT MEYERhttp://www.jacksonsun.com/special_sections/casey_jones2000/songs.htmThe popular song grew from a tune and words sung by Wallace Saunders, a
friend of Casey Jones. Saunders was an engine wiper in the railroad shop in
Canton, Miss. Legend has it that Saunders told Jones he dreamed that his
friend would die in a wreck, said Hettie Moore, the clerk at the Casey
Jones Railroad Museum State Park."He had this vision, but Casey just dismissed it," Moore said. "After
Casey's wreck, Wallace wrote this song for him. He would walk down the
tracks singing it and it just kind of caught on."Moore said two white vaudeville performers heard Saunders singing it and
bought the song from him for a pint of gin. The song, "Casey Jones: The
Brave Engineer" was copyrighted in 1902 to T. Lawrence Seibert and Eddie
Newton, according to sheet music on file at the Vaughan, Miss., museum,
Moore said.

----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<The first Casey Jones ballad was written by Wallace Saunders, Casey's
African-American engine wiper. It was sung to the tune Jimmy Jones,
which was popular at the time.>>For that matter -- have any of you ever come across "Jimmy Jones"? I must
say I haven't. Neither the Duke Univ. collection nor the Levy collection has
it.Peace,
Paul

>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Garst <[unmask]>
>
><<The first Casey Jones ballad was written by Wallace Saunders, Casey's
>African-American engine wiper. It was sung to the tune Jimmy Jones,
>which was popular at the time.>>
>
>For that matter -- have any of you ever come across "Jimmy Jones"? I must
>say I haven't. Neither the Duke Univ. collection nor the Levy collection has
>it.
>
>Peace,
>PaulI doubt that "Jimmy/Jimmie Jones" was sheet music, I imagine that it
was a folk song.  See "On the Charlie So Long," Sandburg, American
Songbag, p 365.  This text is said to be from John Lomax, so I
suppose that it probably appears in one of his and Alan's
collections.  It amazes me that in two Lomax texts there appear "hobo
John," "Charley Snyder," "Jay Gould's daughter," "Jimmie Jones," and
"Joseph Mickle."  Makes me suspect that isolated verses might have
been combined to create these versions of "Jay Gould's Daughter"/"On
the Charlie So Long."--
john garst    [unmask]

Status of Greig-Dincan v.8

Jim Holbert's "Casey Jones"http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?toddbib:61:./temp/~ammem_I0tT::is right interesting.  He uses his own tune but he says he was given
the text as a ballet.  Thanks to those who've supplied "brave" as the
word I couldn't understand in fourth line of the third verse.Some historical background:John Luther "Cayce" Jones started in railroad work as a "cub
operator," then became a brakeman, a fireman (a job he held for
several years), an engineer in freight service, and finally an
express passenger/mail-train engineer for the Illinois Central, IC.In 1900, IC's fast express passenger and mail trains between Chicago
and New Orleans were designated Nos. 1-4.  On Sunday, April 29, 1900,
Jones came into Memphis early in the morning on No. 2.  His regular
schedule had him going out again on No. 3 the next morning.  However,
he was called that evening to replace Sam Tate, who was sick, on No.
1, scheduled to leave Memphis a bit before midnight.  The train was
late coming in, so Jones and Webb, in Engine 382, left at nearly 1
a.m. on Monday, April 30, 75-90 minutes behind schedule.  (There is
confusion over whether or not this was Jones' regular engine - see
http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/c~ball.htm .)They made a passenger stop at Calhoun Street and then struck off
through the countryside.  By the time they reached Durant,
Mississippi, 151 miles south, they were only about 30 minutes behind
schedule.  At Goodman, eight miles south of Durant, they "took
siding" to allow No. 2 (northbound) to pass.  (Who was the engineer
for No. 2?  How many engineers were assigned to the Memphis-Canton
runs of Nos. 1-4?)Coming out of an "S" curve as they approached Vaughn, Mississippi, 15
miles south of Goodman, they saw the red warning lights of a train on
the main line just ahead.  Jones threw on the emergency brakes and
told Webb to jump.  Webb was knocked unconscious when he hit the
ground, and when he came to 30 minutes later, he was told that Jones
was dead.  The engine had plowed through 3 1/2 rear cars of a freight
train that was parked partly on the siding and partly on the main
line, there being insufficient room on the siding for all of it.  The
wreck was at 3:52 a.m.The flagman of the freight train and others said that all the
regulations for warnings had been followed.  Webb at first said that
he thought he might have heard warning torpedoes go off, but later he
denied hearing them.  Neither he nor Jones saw flares, flags, or a
flagman, he said.  Even so, the official railroad investigation,
conducted a month later, accepted that regulations had been followed
and blamed Jones for the accident.  Webb, Jones' widow, and possibly
others blamed the flagman, John Newberry, whom they believed to have
been negligent in his duties.(1) First verse.Come all you railroaders if you want to hear
A story about an engineer,
Casey Jones a-was the rounder's name,
It was on a heavy eight wheeler pulling an IC train.The addressed audience is "railroaders," not "rounders," as in the
popular song.
Casey is "an engineer," not a "brave engineer."
He, unlike the addressed audience, is a "rounder."Railroad Avenue, by Freeman Hubbard, has an extensive glossary of
railroad terms in the back.  "Rounder" is not among them.  On WWW
sites I find "rounder" defined as follows:Rounder is American slang for an habitual criminal or drunkard.
Rounder is American slang for a transient railway worker.
Rounder: A hustler, a thief, one who's been around the block.
     As "He's an old rounder who's cut a few corners in life."
Rounder: Renown burglar
Rounder: a New York slang term for a man given to the company of
     the "demi-monde." One who is well acquainted with the town,
     especially the shady side of it.Bruce Gurner says, at http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/cj~long.htm :
"If we did not already know that Casey was not the rounder the song
would have you believe, we know it now."Whatever the exact meaning of "rounder" might be in "Casey Jones," it
is a derogatory term.The engine was a ten wheeler.  IC (Illinois Central) is correct.(2) Second verse.Casey got up about a half past four,
Well, he kissed his wife at the station door,
Jumped in the cabin with his orders in his hand,
Saying, "This is a trip to the holy land.Sim Webb stated that they were called at 9-10 p.m. with their
double-up assignment to train No. 1 and the news that it was running
late.  Jones could have "got up about half past four."  That would
have allowed for plenty of sleep.  Versions that have, "Caller called
Casey 'bout a half past four," contradict Webb.  Webb stated that
Jones spent part of the day installing a new whistle.  He could have
done this after "half past four."  One might suppose that he would
install the new whistle on his own engine.  Some of the confusion
about engine assignments might be resolved by the information that
the new whistle was, or was not, on the wrecked engine.Not "promised land," as in common versions, but "holy land."  (A few
other versions have this.)  A trip to the "promised land" would be a
premonition of death, but a trip to the "holy land" might suggest
something else, perhaps Jones' inordinate pride in his job.  "Pride
goeth before a fall."(3) Third verse.Stopped on the square at the corner of the main,
Three polices asked him his name,
"My name is written on the back of my shirt,
"I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."They stopped for five minutes at Calhoun Street.  I'm not sure why
"polices" should be especially interested in his name, but Casey
gives a surly reply.  I don't know whether or not all employees of
the IC had their names written on the backs of their shirts.  If not,
and if Casey did, this might emphasize his egotistical side.  Anyhow,
it is not the narrator of the song, but Casey *himself*, who calls
him a "brave engineer," obvious bragging.  "I don't have to work" may
mean that he no longer has to labor as a fireman.  Paul Stamler
writes, "I suspect a modification of the floating line, 'I'm a
natural-born easeman, I don't have to work' (easeman = someone with
great sexual talent)."  If so, then the song writer must expect the
listener to make the connection with the familiar verse, further
demeaning Jones.Furry Lewis sang several "Kassie Jones" verses with tag lines, "On
the road again / I'm a natural born eas'man, on the road again."  His
ultimate verse is "I left Memphis to spread the news / Memphis women
don't wear no shoes / Had it written on the back of my shirt /
Natural born eas'man, don't have to work."  Here this verse seems to
be an intrusion, not connected to the railroad story.  It could
easily be the older model on which Holbert's third verse is based.
Perhaps Lewis recalled it as a more familiar verse than the one sung
by Holbert and reverted to the original. (Is retromutation a good
word?)(4) Fourth verse.Casey pulled out on the Memphis yard
With the Number 3 daily on the schedule card,
Passengers all knew by the engine move [? engine's moves]
That the man at the throttle was-a Casey Jones."Number 3 daily on the schedule card" - No. 3 was Jones' next
regularly scheduled run.The more common "engine's moans" seems to make better sense here.(5) Fifth verse.Pulled out his watch and a-looked at the time,
Says to the fireman, "This engine's behind,
"I'll run this train, I'll leave the rails,
"For I'm ten hours late with the southern mail."Casey states here that he will be reckless, "I'll leave the rails."
This sounds like, "I don't give a damn about the passengers.""Ten hours late" is wrong, it was 75-90 minutes.  "Southern mail" is
right, it is what the train was often called.  It was also known as
the "Cannonball Express," but it is not clear that this name was in
use at the time of Jones' wreck.  Some versions of the song, however,
name the "Cannonball" or "Cannon Ball."(6) Sixth verse.'Round the curve, a-saw a passenger train,
Both head lights were a-shining the same,
Turned to the fireman, says, "Pick out a place to jump,
"The Number 1's a-coming and it's bound to bump.""Round the curve" is right.  "Passenger train" is wrong, it was a freight.I don't know what "Both head lights were a-shining the same" might
means, but "Both *red* lights" would make perfect sense and be
accurate.  The caboose of a train stopped on the main line would
display two red lights.  That is, in fact, what Webb says they saw.
Thus, "head lights" is probably a mutation of an earlier "red lights."Webb said repeatedly that Jones told him to jump.The train being driven by Jones was indeed "Number One."(7) Seventh verse.When the news reached home that-a Casey was dead,
His-a wife and chillun was asleep in the bed,
"Lie still, chillun, and-a take your rest,
"For we'll draw a pension at your daddy's death."Jones died at 3:52 a.m.  His wife and children might well have been
asleep when the family was contacted.The matter-of-fact statement, attributed here to Mrs. Jones, is
another jibe at Jones.  In the Seibert version, "you [children] got
another papa on the Salt Lake line," which caused Mrs. Jones great
distress.  No indications have surfaced that either Jones or Mrs.
Jones was a philanderer.  On another "moral" front, Jones was a
teetotaler.(8) Eighth verse.Casey went to heaven right a-straight on from here,
And he told Saint Peter he's an engineer,
"You've run your engine so brave and bold,
"I'll send you back to shoveling coal."Saint Peter demoted the "brave and bold" Jones to his old job of
fireman.  Since there may not be much burning in Heaven, the
implication may be that he is sent to stoke in Hell.Casey called himself a "brave engineer" in this version.  St. Peter
makes his being "brave and bold" a liability.  St. Peter must have
seen Jones as reckless.(9) Ninth verse.Casey said before he died,
There's two more trains that he'd like to ride,
"Look on the map and you will see
"The Southern Pacific and the Sante Fe."I see no particular significance here, but this verse makes a
connection with other, perhaps earlier, songs, e.g., "Jay Gould's
Daughter."Although this text includes several minor errors, when compared with
historical facts, it gets a lot right:"IC" (Illinois Central)
"Stopped on the square" (stopped at Calhoun Street)
"Number 3 daily on the schedule card (Jones' regular run)
"This engine's behind" (so it was)
"southern mail" (correct popular name)
"'Round the curve" (they saw the parked train as they rounded a curve)
"Both head lights" (correct as "both red lights")
"Pick out a place to jump" (Jones told Webb to jump)
"Number 1's a coming" (Jones was driving train No. 1)
"wife and chillun was asleep" (it was very early in the morning)
"we'll draw a pension at your daddy's death"
     (she drew pensions from two railroad brotherhoods and perhaps one from IC)
"back to shoveling coal" (Jones had been a fireman)This must have been written by someone with intimate knowledge of the
facts of the case and Jones' career.Furry Lewis' version has a few features of this text, enough to
convince me that it could have derived, in part, from this one.
These considerations lead me to believe that the Holbert text is a
very early version.In Long Steel Rail, Norm gives the 1908 version, which also contains
many correct facts.  It shares about 7 couplets with Holbert (18
total in Holbert, 20 in 1908). It opens:Come all you rounders, for I want you to hear
The story told of an engineer.
Casey Jones was the rounder's name,
A heavy right-wheeler of a mighty fame.This is verse 5:Fireman says, "Casey, you're running too fast,
"You run the block-board the last station you passed."
Jones says, "Yes, I believe we'll make it through,
"For she steams better than ever I knew."Verses 9 and 10 are moralizing:Poor Casey Jones was all right,
For he stuck to his duty both day and night.
They loved to hear his whistle and ring of number three,
As he came into Memphis on the old I. C.Headaches and heartaches, and all kinds of pain,
Are not apart from a railroad train.
Tales that are in earnest, noble and grand,
Belong to the life of a railroad man.1908 is schizoid in its attitude toward Jones.  In verse 1 he is a
"rounder" (along with the addressed audience), in verse 5 he is
"running too fast" and "run the block-board the last station."  Verse
6 contains, "I'm going to run her till she leaves the rail / Or make
it in on time with the Southern mail." In verse 8, "He's a good
engineer, but he's dead and gone."  In verse 9 he is "all right,"
"stuck to his duty," and provided something people "loved."  Verse 10
implies that this tale is "earnest, noble and grand."Absent from 1908 are several of the Holbert jibes at Jones: "My name
is written on the back of my shirt / I'm a brave engineer and I don't
have to work," "we'll draw a pension at your daddy's death," and St.
Peter's judgment, "You've run your engine so brave and bold / I'll
send you back to shoveling coal."Haywire Mac's version is also schizoid, implying that Jones was
beloved ("The women stood cryin', both colored and white") but
reckless ("I'll roll her till she leaves the rails") and careless ("I
was there to tell the fact, They flagged him down but he never looked
back.")This leads me to suspect that competing versions of the ballad
circulated early on, one denigrating Jones and the other glorifying
him, or at least that the ballads varied considerably in their
mixtures of praise and ridicule.  Wallace Saunders is said to have
written his song as a "tribute" to Jones, whose death was to him a
"supreme tragedy" (Freeman Hubbard's words).  Hubbard writes this
immediately after quoting a close variant of the 1908 version, in
which Jones is a "rounder" who runs a "block-board" and threatens to
"run her till she leaves the rail," hardly the stuff to inspire
admiration.My suspicion is that the 1908 version is a mixture of an earlier one
(perhaps Saunders' original) that glorified Jones with one like
Holbert, which vilifies him whole-heartedly.  One version would
represent the views and feelings of those who believed that Jones'
actions were proper and that the blame lay with Flagman Newberry.
The other would represent those who accepted Newberry's claims to
have followed regulations and blamed Jones for his own death and
endangering the lives of others.This would run parallel with early versions of "Stack Lee," some of
which are sympathetic to Stack Lee Shelton, saying that he was good
and loved by all, and others of which paint him as evil personified.
In that case, political and personal motives were at work:  Shelton
was a Democrat, his victim Billy Lyons a Republican, and there had
been previous violence to Lyons' relatives, perhaps by Democrats.  In
the case of Cayce Jones, it would have been the IC and Newberry's
supporters against Webb, Jones' widow, and many of the common people
of the region.How did "Casey Jones, the Brave Engineer" become the "Greatest Comedy
Hit in Years" and "The Only Comedy Railroad Song" to authors Seibert
and Newton?  They picked up verses and versions that ridiculed Jones
and included them in their rewrite: "brave engineer," "rounder," "run
her till she leaves the rail," and "we're gonna reach Frisco but
we'll all be dead."  Since folk versions ridiculed Jones, it must
have seemed acceptable to make a "comedy hit" out of the story of his
death.  They appear to have replaced the pension statement with
"you've got another papa on the Salt Lake line."I doubt that this is a general theory of the tendency of songs of
tragedy to turn into songs of humor.  However, I note that The Great
Titanic, which today children at camps sing with great fun, involves
a story in which pride went before a fall: "They said it was a ship
that / Water could never leak through."  The song takes the proud
builder to task: "God with His mighty hand / Said that ship it could
not stand / It was sad when that great ship went down."  The title,
The *Great* Titanic, also seems to be taking a shot at the builder.
Perhaps the author meant *large*, or perhaps he/she was merely
quoting what the Titanic was commonly called, but it sounds as if the
"great" Titanic was meant to be a challenge to God, so the song,
perhaps written by a preacher, takes the mere mortal but egotistical
builder to task: "Husbands and wives / Little children lost their
lives / It was sad when that *great* ship went down."  Perhaps this
seed of ridicule is what allows even grown-ups to enjoy roaring out
these lines at parties, sometimes with the variation, "Uncles and
aunts / Little children wet their pants / It was sad when that great
ship went down."Anyhow, I wish I understood better the psychology that makes it fun
to sing about tragic events.
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<Furry Lewis sang several "Kassie Jones" verses with tag lines, "On
the road again / I'm a natural born eas'man, on the road again."  His
ultimate verse is "I left Memphis to spread the news / Memphis women
don't wear no shoes / Had it written on the back of my shirt /
Natural born eas'man, don't have to work."  Here this verse seems to
be an intrusion, not connected to the railroad story.  It could
easily be the older model on which Holbert's third verse is based.
Perhaps Lewis recalled it as a more familiar verse than the one sung
by Holbert and reverted to the original. (Is retromutation a good
word?) >>An excellent word. Now I ask you one, as Chico said: what's the date of the
Memphis Jug Band's recording "On the Road Again"? I've always thought Lewis
was directly quoting them. Of course, being a Memphis singer himself,
there's no reason he couldn't have learned it directly. In any case, though,
it's clear that those lines were floating around the Memphis music scene for
a while in the late 1920s (Lewis's recording is from 1928).<<(9) Ninth verse.Casey said before he died,
There's two more trains that he'd like to ride,
"Look on the map and you will see
"The Southern Pacific and the Sante Fe."I see no particular significance here, but this verse makes a
connection with other, perhaps earlier, songs, e.g., "Jay Gould's
Daughter.">>Unfortunately, I don't have an earliest-date for "Jay Gould's Daughter" --
anyone? It was around when Sandburg wrote in 1927.Peace,
Paul

Ballad-l members,        *Don't* open any e-mails with attachments (and if you have
Outlook Express -- get the security patches before this latest one gets
you).        Based on one which I just received, a list member has been
infected.  It is forging at least one name (Ed Cray) from the list, with
a different domain from his proper one.  This is the way that the
"bugbear" worm works, to make it more difficult to warn the person
infected.        Looking at the headers, I believe Andy Rouse's system to be
infected, and have e-mailed him a warning and a pointer to a removal
tool to disinfect his system.        Best of luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---