>Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
>that sea song refer to.Also,In petitionHail, Queen of the Most Holy Rosary, my Mother Mary, hail!  At your
feet I humbly kneel to offer you a Crown of Roses - blood red roses
to remind you of the passion of your Divine Son, with whom you so
fully partook of its bitterness - each rose recalling to you a holy
mystery, each ten bound together with my petition for a particular
grace.  Oh Holy Queen, dispenser of God's graces, and Mother of all
who invoke you!  You can't look at my gift and fail to see its
binding.  As you receive my gift, so will you receive my petition,
from your bounty you will give me the favor I so earnestly and
trustingly seek.  I despair of nothing that I ask of you.  Show
yourself, my Mother!http://www.psgod.com/rosary.htm
--
john garst    [unmask]

>Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
>that sea song refer to.At http://celtic.relics.com/songbook/pageb.htm"Red Roses" refer to British soldiers.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>>I thought it was "brave".
>>Norm
>
>I think you're right, though the pronunciation is a little odd.
>
>What does it mean,
>
>"I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."
>
>Is this a derisive comment on Cayce's personality?This idea is reinforced by Holbert's penultimate verse:Casey went to heaven right a-straight on from here,
And he told Saint Peter he's an engineer,
"You've run your engine so brave and bold,
"I'll send you back to shoveling coal."It seems to me that the author of this version didn't think very
highly of Jones.
--
john garst    [unmask]

 From the Blankenship broadside:John Henry's woman heard he was dead,
She could not rest on her bed,
She got up at midnight, caught that No. 4 train,
"I am going where John Henry fell dead."In reviewing work on "Casey Jones," I've been reminded that Cayce was
killed as he drove the Illinois Central's train No. 1, the Cannonball
Express.  No. 1 ran south from Chicago to New Orleans.  No. 4 was the
return trip, running north over the same route.  Cayce was the
engineer for a section of each of these runs.John Henry is said to have been born a slave near Raymond, Crystal
Springs, and Jackson, Mississippi.  Presumably, many of his friends
and relatives lived there.  I don't know when the IC put in the
Memphis-New Orleans run and started calling it "No. 1" and "No. 4,"
but if it was as early as 1887, then it is plausible that someone
might have started a train trip from Crystal Springs, MS, which is on
the IC line, to Birmingham, AL, by staring north on the Cannonball,
the No. 4 train, just as the Blankenship broadside says.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>What does it mean,
>
>"I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."
>
>Is this a derisive comment on Cayce's personality?I suspect a modification of the floating line, "I'm a natural-born easeman,
I don't have to work" (easeman = someone with great sexual talent). Add to
that the "brave engineer" phrase from the first line of the regular "Casey
Jones" ("Come all you rounders if you want to hear/The story of a brave
engineer") and you have a nice ambiguous line.Peace,
Paul

On Sat, 5 Oct 2002, Fred McCormick wrote in part:> I am no expert in children's folklore, so I'm not about to make any alarming
> claims. However the best guess I can make is that it is derived from a
> Trinidadian children's game song called Coming Down With a Bunch of Roses. I
> suspect there may be European antecedants, but the song appears on Rounder CD
> 1716 :Caribbean Voyage: Brown Girl in the Ring, where it is sung to what is
> recognisably a version of the Blood Red Roses tune.
>
> It is real chicken and egg stuff to ask which came first, but the title of
> the Caribbean song seems to make more sense, to me at at any rate.
>
In _Brown Girl in the Ring,_ Alan Lomax, J.D. Elder and Bess Lomax Hawes
surmise that "Caribbean sailors not only learned Anglo-American chanteys
but added many island-born sea songs to the international chantey
repertory... It is quite possible that the children's song game "Coming
Down with a Bunch of Roses" is a children's remembrance of the rare and
beautiful British work chantey [that begins] `Go down, you blood red
roses, go down...'"  (pp. 16-17)Ed

Plausible-but I wonder how that particular phrase with that particular meaning wound up in a 19th century shanty, Is there any evidence of currency during the intervening years?For every question, there is an explanation that's simple, clear and wrong.dick greenhaus
>
> From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> Date: 2002/10/05 Sat AM 08:50:14 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Exploiting the Casey Jones thread,
>
> >Also, a listener called last week to ask what the "Blood Red Roses" in
> >that sea song refer to. I'm disgracefully unschooled in locating websites
> >that might have the answer; if any listmember can steer me to one, I
> >promise to get clued-in & not pester the list w/ such questions.
>
> This might be relevant:
>
> http://jama.ama-assn.org/issues/v286n21/ffull/jbk1205-4.html
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi!        Here I am again! Ebay seems moderately busy at the moment. Here
is the weekly list.        SONGSTERS        910562624 - The AMERICAN SONGSTER No. 1, 1907, $5 (ends
Oct-08-02 08:53:46)        1567493447 - Harrigan & Harts "The Muddy Day, Songster." $9.99
(ends Oct-08-02 17:54:44 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        910074494 - 3 Bradley Kincaid songbooks in one lot, $9.99 (ends
Oct-06-02 06:53:41 PDT)        1566874808 - The Oral Tradition of the American West by
Cunningham, 1990, $5 (ends Oct-06-02 08:18:21 PDT)        910136611 - AMERICAN BALLADS AND SONGS, COLLECTED AND EDITED BY
LOUIS POUND, 1972 reprint, $4.99 (ends Oct-06-02 11:43:19 PDT)        910180963 - American Negro Songs by John W. Work, date not
given, $1 w/reserve (ends Oct-06-02 14:24:46 PDT)        910184324 - lot of sheet music and 3 songbooks (The books are of
considerably more interest.) $9.99 (ends Oct-06-02 14:37:37 PDT)        1567007572 - CASEY JONES and other Ballads of the Mining West,
collected by Duncan Emrich, 1942, $2.45 (ends Oct-06-02 16:22:07 PDT)        1567251226 - Ballads Migrant in New England by Flanders and
Olney, 1953, $3 (ends Oct-07-02 16:15:00 PDT)
        (also 1567402430 $4 (ends Oct-08-02 10:46:57 PDT)        1567253601 - Folksongs of Florida, collected and edited by Alton
C. Morris, 1980 reprint, $9.99 (ends Oct-07-02 16:28:55 PDT)        911337834 - Songs of the Pioneers by Brumbley, 1970, $2.75 (ends
Oct-07-02 18:28:38 PDT)        910499269 - SMITH'S COLLECTION OF MOUNTAIN BALLADS AND COWBOY
SONGS, 1932, $3 (ends Oct-07-02 20:44:43 PDT)        1567417664 - Anglo-American Folksong Style by Abrahams and Foss,
1968, $19.99 (ends Oct-08-02 11:45:29 PDT)        1567419207 - WHITE SPIRITUALS IN THE SOUTHERN UPLANDS by
Jackson, 1965, $49.99 (ends Oct-08-02 11:51:49 PDT)        1567907293 - The Viking Book of Folk Ballads of the English
Speaking World, edited by Friedman, 1982, $5.99 (ends Oct-08-02 12:52:51
PDT)        1566971625 - Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman by Doerflinger,
1972 edition, $9.89 (ends Oct-09-02 13:56:54 PDT)        1567020968 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends. Ed. George Korson,
1960 edition, $8 (ends Oct-09-02 17:22:05 PDT)        1568182379 - The Ballad Literature and Popular Music of the
Olden Time by Chappell, 2 volumes, 1880's edition, $159.95! (ends
Oct-11-02 17:11:24 PDT)        1567818207 - MUSIC AND TRADITION IN EARLY INDUSTRIAL LANCASHIRE
1780-1840 by Elbourne, 1980, 5 GBP (ends Oct-13-02 07:01:51 PDT)        911134925 - Oxford Book of Sea Songs, edited by Palmer, 1986,
$5.99 (ends Oct-13-02 18:03:29 PDT)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Not sure about the meaning.  Maybe it's tongue in cheek:  I'm a "BRAVE
ENGINEER"!  I don't have to work!!
Just guessing
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: Casey Jones> >I thought it was "brave".
> >Norm
>
> I think you're right, though the pronunciation is a little odd.
>
> What does it mean,
>
> "I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."
>
> Is this a derisive comment on Cayce's personality?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

Hi!        Another week - another list!        SONGSTER        721906756 - The Barnum and Bailey Greatest Show On Earth
Songster, 1902, $24.50 (ends Oct-14-02 10:47:37 PDT)        912459134 - The Ideal Songster, 1930's?, $3 (ends Oct-16-02
18:51:10 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        1568153651 - The Shaker Spiritual by Patterson, paperback,
$40.42 (ends Oct-11-02 14:10:55 PDT)        911786779 - English Folk Song some conclusions by Cecil Sharp,
Revised by Maud Karpekes, 1972, 5.50 GBP (ends Oct-11-02 18:42:16 PDT)        911360789 - RUSTY GILL - COWBOY SONGS, MOUNTAIN BALLADS, 1941,
$9.99 (ends Oct-11-02 20:19:29 PDT)        911391686 - GREAT DAY COMING: FOLK MUSIC AND THE AMERICAN LEFT
by Denisoff, 1971, $24.99 (ends Oct-12-02 03:59:10 PDT)        1568291201 - Barbershops, Bullets, and Ballads, compiled by
Studwell & Schueneman, 1999, $14 (ends Oct-12-02 09:09:36 PDT)        1568425481 - Humor in American Song by Loesser, 1942, $9.99
(ends Oct-12-02 20:24:48 PDT)        1568962425 - 9 issues of Western Folklore, 1974-79, $9 (ends
Oct-12-02 21:34:18 PDT)        1568561355 - Drinking Songs, JACOB SCHMIDT BREWING COMPANY,
$1.25 (ends Oct-13-02 11:48:18 PDT)        1569068362 - G.I. Songs, edited by Palmer, 1944, $3.99 (ends
Oct-13-02 12:27:15 PDT)        1569080816 - Read 'Em and Weep. The Songs You Forgot to Remember
by Spaeth, 1927, $9.95 (ends Oct-13-02 13:17:07 PDT)        1568606105 - RELIQUES OF ANCIENT ENGLISH POETRY by Percy, 1847
edition, volume 3 only, $34.50 (ends Oct-13-02 14:08:15 PDT)        1568649314 - Handsome Heroines: Women as Men in Folklore by
Husain, 1996, $5 (ends Oct-13-02 16:57:41 PDT)        911828800 - Asher Sizemore and Little Jimmie's Family Circle
Songs, 1938, $4.99 (ends Oct-13-02 20:53:06 PDT)        1568061322 - Frontier Ballads by Finger, 1927, $25 (ends
Oct-14-02 06:04:49 PDT)        911925391 - Hank Keene?s 1936 Edition Of Original Mountain,
Cowboy, Hill-Billy and Folk Songs, $9.99 (ends Oct-14-02 11:12:18 PDT)        1568869337 - SONGS AND BALLADS OF SPORT AND PASTIME by
Tomlinson, 1896, $10 (ends Oct-14-02 14:10:36 PDT)        912088285 - Bawdy British Folk Songs by McCarthy, 1972, $8 (ends
Oct-15-02 04:26:07 PDT)        1568322561 - Folk Scene magazine, October 1965, 5 GBP (ends
Oct-15-02 11:35:42 PDT)        912237249 - OUTLAW BALLADS, LEGENDS & LORE, $5.95 (ends
Oct-15-02 18:16:42 PDT)        912247297 - 2 Asher Sizemore and Little Jimmie songbooks, Hearth
& Home songs and Mountain Ballads, 1933-34, $7.50 (ends Oct-15-02
 18:55:10 PDT)        912272523 - Smith's Collection of Mountain Ballads and Cowboy
Songs, 1932, $4.99 (ends Oct-15-02 20:33:27 PDT)        911553856 - 2 books in one lot (The Scottish Students' Song
Book, The British Students' Songbook, and The Minstrelsy of the Scottish
Highlands), $10.49 (ends Oct-15-02 20:35:08 PDT)        912281317 - 3 songbooks in one lot; BOONE COUNTY JAMBOREE is the
one of the most interest although the seller is emphasizing a hootenany
songbook from the 60's, $3.50 (ends Oct-15-02 21:32:26 PDT)        912281894 - Folk Songs of Old New England by Linscott, 1939, $7
(ends Oct-15-02 21:37:56 PDT)        1569293424 - Ballads of the Great West by Fife, 1970, $9.99
(ends Oct-16-02 12:24:03 PDT)        1568595440 - The American Songbag by Sandburg, 1927, $7.50 (ends
Oct-16-02 13:35:37 PDT)        912027607 - Asher Sizemore and Little Jimmie - Songs of the
Soil, 1937, $4.99 (ends Oct-17-02 19:06:45 PDT)        912092808 - Reliques of Ancient English Poetry by Percy, 3
volumes in one, 1870's edition, 14.99 GBP (ends Oct-18-02 05:19:06 PDT)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Norm and others,As far as I can tell, the popular song, "Casey Jones," by Seibert and
Newton, was published in 1909 (see Long Steel Rail).  Yet, all over
the WWW one finds 1902.  For example, at
http://www.contemplator.com/america/casyjones.html
you find:*******
The first Casey Jones ballad was written by Wallace Saunders, Casey's
African-American engine wiper. It was sung to the tune Jimmy Jones,
which was popular at the time. Engineer William Leighton heard the
song. His brothers Frank and Bert, vaudeville performers, polished
the song, added a chorus, and began to perform it in their act. When
the ballad was published in 1902 the words were credited to T.
Lawrence Seibert, and Eddie Newton was credited with the music.
*******Freeman Hubbard states, in Railroad Avenue (1945, p 19):*******
There is some doubt as to the exact process by which this folklore
was transmuted into a national song hit.  We do know that there were
several adaptations of the original lament.  One was sung on the
vaudeville stage by Bert and Frank Leighton, brothers of an Illinois
Central engineer named Bill Leighton.  In 1902 it was finally
published, and in 1903 it was listed among the ten best sellers in
sheet music.  In that year, three years after the Vaughn collision,
the Southern Music Company of Los Angeles put out a song sheet
entitled "Casey Jones, the Brave Engineer" [the Seibert-Newton song]
....
*******Hubbard seems to have messed up his dates on the Seibert-Newton song,
and I suppose that he could have messed up similarly on the
Leightons' song.  My problem is that I can't find the Leightons'
song.  Is this a ghost?  I don't find any mention of it in Long Steel
Rail or anywhere else I've looked.
--
john garst    [unmask]

One additional bit of information - I just did a google search for
Seibert +"casey jones."  I found a number of references to the 1909
date.  Perhaps the most intriguing was a hit from the "Madison County
Journal" from 2/4/99  that says:"By 1909,when "The Ballad of Casey Jones" was copyrighted (with words
credited to T. Lawrence Seibert and music to Eddie Newton, the ballad
had become a ..."Unfortunately that's the end of the highlight, and I can't access the
source.  The suggestion is that the ballad was well known by - and
before -  1909 but actually copyrighted in 1909.There are some other interesting hits - in particular a page from a
University of Arizona site.Lew Becker

At 7:10 PM -0400 10/10/02, Lewis Becker wrote:
>Unfortunately that's the end of the highlight, and I can't access the
>source.  The suggestion is that the ballad was well known by - and
>before -  1909 but actually copyrighted in 1909.        The full item reads:'Casey Jones' penned in CantonBy JIM LACEY, Jr.Canton Rotary Club History Bit        As far as I have been able to find out, the ballard about Casey
Jones, is the only song ever written in Canton by a Canton man to gain
national fame. Wallace Saunders, an illiterate black engine wiper in the
Canton roundhouse, made up the ditty and it became a national craze inside
of 10 years.        I find it somewhat hard to believe, but in a story about Casey
Jones, the American Legion magazine in its March 1966 issue said that no
less a person than Carl Sandburg, the famed poet, called it "the greatest
ballad ever written on the North American continent."        After Casey Jones died in a railroad wreck at Vaughan on April 30,
1900, his friend, Saunders was grieving and started chanting a ditty about
Casey, set to an old song. Saunders worked at the Illinois Central
roundhouse in Canton, which was located, until about 1962, just south of
where Barnett Phillips has his lumber company now. William Leighton, an
Illinois Central engineer, heard Saunders chant the song, wrote it down and
passed it on to his brothers, Bert and Frank Leighton, and they used it on
the Orpheum vaudeville circuit. By 1909, when "The Ballad of Casey Jones"
was copyrighted (with words credited to T. Lawrence Seibert and music to
Eddie Newton), the ballad had became a national craze. It's hard for us
today to realize what heroes railway locomotive engineers were about the
turn of the century, and it's also hard for youngsters today to understand
such a craze, since this sort of thing has sort of passed out of style.
Gone out of the picture are national fads such as the one over the ballad
of Davey Crockett, when half of the kids in the U. S. were wearing Davy
Crockett coonskin caps.        But until this last generation or so, everybody in the United
States at least knew about the Casey Jones ballard and many of them could
sing it. It never made Canton famous, for Saunders didn't get credit for
the song. He didn't even get any money. It is said that all that he got out
of the song was a bottle of gin.

        The following comment cames from the Jackson Sun News by W. MATT MEYERhttp://www.jacksonsun.com/special_sections/casey_jones2000/songs.htmThe popular song grew from a tune and words sung by Wallace Saunders, a
friend of Casey Jones. Saunders was an engine wiper in the railroad shop in
Canton, Miss. Legend has it that Saunders told Jones he dreamed that his
friend would die in a wreck, said Hettie Moore, the clerk at the Casey
Jones Railroad Museum State Park."He had this vision, but Casey just dismissed it," Moore said. "After
Casey's wreck, Wallace wrote this song for him. He would walk down the
tracks singing it and it just kind of caught on."Moore said two white vaudeville performers heard Saunders singing it and
bought the song from him for a pint of gin. The song, "Casey Jones: The
Brave Engineer" was copyrighted in 1902 to T. Lawrence Seibert and Eddie
Newton, according to sheet music on file at the Vaughan, Miss., museum,
Moore said.

----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<The first Casey Jones ballad was written by Wallace Saunders, Casey's
African-American engine wiper. It was sung to the tune Jimmy Jones,
which was popular at the time.>>For that matter -- have any of you ever come across "Jimmy Jones"? I must
say I haven't. Neither the Duke Univ. collection nor the Levy collection has
it.Peace,
Paul

>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Garst <[unmask]>
>
><<The first Casey Jones ballad was written by Wallace Saunders, Casey's
>African-American engine wiper. It was sung to the tune Jimmy Jones,
>which was popular at the time.>>
>
>For that matter -- have any of you ever come across "Jimmy Jones"? I must
>say I haven't. Neither the Duke Univ. collection nor the Levy collection has
>it.
>
>Peace,
>PaulI doubt that "Jimmy/Jimmie Jones" was sheet music, I imagine that it
was a folk song.  See "On the Charlie So Long," Sandburg, American
Songbag, p 365.  This text is said to be from John Lomax, so I
suppose that it probably appears in one of his and Alan's
collections.  It amazes me that in two Lomax texts there appear "hobo
John," "Charley Snyder," "Jay Gould's daughter," "Jimmie Jones," and
"Joseph Mickle."  Makes me suspect that isolated verses might have
been combined to create these versions of "Jay Gould's Daughter"/"On
the Charlie So Long."--
john garst    [unmask]

Status of Greig-Dincan v.8

Jim Holbert's "Casey Jones"http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?toddbib:61:./temp/~ammem_I0tT::is right interesting.  He uses his own tune but he says he was given
the text as a ballet.  Thanks to those who've supplied "brave" as the
word I couldn't understand in fourth line of the third verse.Some historical background:John Luther "Cayce" Jones started in railroad work as a "cub
operator," then became a brakeman, a fireman (a job he held for
several years), an engineer in freight service, and finally an
express passenger/mail-train engineer for the Illinois Central, IC.In 1900, IC's fast express passenger and mail trains between Chicago
and New Orleans were designated Nos. 1-4.  On Sunday, April 29, 1900,
Jones came into Memphis early in the morning on No. 2.  His regular
schedule had him going out again on No. 3 the next morning.  However,
he was called that evening to replace Sam Tate, who was sick, on No.
1, scheduled to leave Memphis a bit before midnight.  The train was
late coming in, so Jones and Webb, in Engine 382, left at nearly 1
a.m. on Monday, April 30, 75-90 minutes behind schedule.  (There is
confusion over whether or not this was Jones' regular engine - see
http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/c~ball.htm .)They made a passenger stop at Calhoun Street and then struck off
through the countryside.  By the time they reached Durant,
Mississippi, 151 miles south, they were only about 30 minutes behind
schedule.  At Goodman, eight miles south of Durant, they "took
siding" to allow No. 2 (northbound) to pass.  (Who was the engineer
for No. 2?  How many engineers were assigned to the Memphis-Canton
runs of Nos. 1-4?)Coming out of an "S" curve as they approached Vaughn, Mississippi, 15
miles south of Goodman, they saw the red warning lights of a train on
the main line just ahead.  Jones threw on the emergency brakes and
told Webb to jump.  Webb was knocked unconscious when he hit the
ground, and when he came to 30 minutes later, he was told that Jones
was dead.  The engine had plowed through 3 1/2 rear cars of a freight
train that was parked partly on the siding and partly on the main
line, there being insufficient room on the siding for all of it.  The
wreck was at 3:52 a.m.The flagman of the freight train and others said that all the
regulations for warnings had been followed.  Webb at first said that
he thought he might have heard warning torpedoes go off, but later he
denied hearing them.  Neither he nor Jones saw flares, flags, or a
flagman, he said.  Even so, the official railroad investigation,
conducted a month later, accepted that regulations had been followed
and blamed Jones for the accident.  Webb, Jones' widow, and possibly
others blamed the flagman, John Newberry, whom they believed to have
been negligent in his duties.(1) First verse.Come all you railroaders if you want to hear
A story about an engineer,
Casey Jones a-was the rounder's name,
It was on a heavy eight wheeler pulling an IC train.The addressed audience is "railroaders," not "rounders," as in the
popular song.
Casey is "an engineer," not a "brave engineer."
He, unlike the addressed audience, is a "rounder."Railroad Avenue, by Freeman Hubbard, has an extensive glossary of
railroad terms in the back.  "Rounder" is not among them.  On WWW
sites I find "rounder" defined as follows:Rounder is American slang for an habitual criminal or drunkard.
Rounder is American slang for a transient railway worker.
Rounder: A hustler, a thief, one who's been around the block.
     As "He's an old rounder who's cut a few corners in life."
Rounder: Renown burglar
Rounder: a New York slang term for a man given to the company of
     the "demi-monde." One who is well acquainted with the town,
     especially the shady side of it.Bruce Gurner says, at http://www.watervalley.net/users/caseyjones/cj~long.htm :
"If we did not already know that Casey was not the rounder the song
would have you believe, we know it now."Whatever the exact meaning of "rounder" might be in "Casey Jones," it
is a derogatory term.The engine was a ten wheeler.  IC (Illinois Central) is correct.(2) Second verse.Casey got up about a half past four,
Well, he kissed his wife at the station door,
Jumped in the cabin with his orders in his hand,
Saying, "This is a trip to the holy land.Sim Webb stated that they were called at 9-10 p.m. with their
double-up assignment to train No. 1 and the news that it was running
late.  Jones could have "got up about half past four."  That would
have allowed for plenty of sleep.  Versions that have, "Caller called
Casey 'bout a half past four," contradict Webb.  Webb stated that
Jones spent part of the day installing a new whistle.  He could have
done this after "half past four."  One might suppose that he would
install the new whistle on his own engine.  Some of the confusion
about engine assignments might be resolved by the information that
the new whistle was, or was not, on the wrecked engine.Not "promised land," as in common versions, but "holy land."  (A few
other versions have this.)  A trip to the "promised land" would be a
premonition of death, but a trip to the "holy land" might suggest
something else, perhaps Jones' inordinate pride in his job.  "Pride
goeth before a fall."(3) Third verse.Stopped on the square at the corner of the main,
Three polices asked him his name,
"My name is written on the back of my shirt,
"I'm a brave engineer and I don't have to work."They stopped for five minutes at Calhoun Street.  I'm not sure why
"polices" should be especially interested in his name, but Casey
gives a surly reply.  I don't know whether or not all employees of
the IC had their names written on the backs of their shirts.  If not,
and if Casey did, this might emphasize his egotistical side.  Anyhow,
it is not the narrator of the song, but Casey *himself*, who calls
him a "brave engineer," obvious bragging.  "I don't have to work" may
mean that he no longer has to labor as a fireman.  Paul Stamler
writes, "I suspect a modification of the floating line, 'I'm a
natural-born easeman, I don't have to work' (easeman = someone with
great sexual talent)."  If so, then the song writer must expect the
listener to make the connection with the familiar verse, further
demeaning Jones.Furry Lewis sang several "Kassie Jones" verses with tag lines, "On
the road again / I'm a natural born eas'man, on the road again."  His
ultimate verse is "I left Memphis to spread the news / Memphis women
don't wear no shoes / Had it written on the back of my shirt /
Natural born eas'man, don't have to work."  Here this verse seems to
be an intrusion, not connected to the railroad story.  It could
easily be the older model on which Holbert's third verse is based.
Perhaps Lewis recalled it as a more familiar verse than the one sung
by Holbert and reverted to the original. (Is retromutation a good
word?)(4) Fourth verse.Casey pulled out on the Memphis yard
With the Number 3 daily on the schedule card,
Passengers all knew by the engine move [? engine's moves]
That the man at the throttle was-a Casey Jones."Number 3 daily on the schedule card" - No. 3 was Jones' next
regularly scheduled run.The more common "engine's moans" seems to make better sense here.(5) Fifth verse.Pulled out his watch and a-looked at the time,
Says to the fireman, "This engine's behind,
"I'll run this train, I'll leave the rails,
"For I'm ten hours late with the southern mail."Casey states here that he will be reckless, "I'll leave the rails."
This sounds like, "I don't give a damn about the passengers.""Ten hours late" is wrong, it was 75-90 minutes.  "Southern mail" is
right, it is what the train was often called.  It was also known as
the "Cannonball Express," but it is not clear that this name was in
use at the time of Jones' wreck.  Some versions of the song, however,
name the "Cannonball" or "Cannon Ball."(6) Sixth verse.'Round the curve, a-saw a passenger train,
Both head lights were a-shining the same,
Turned to the fireman, says, "Pick out a place to jump,
"The Number 1's a-coming and it's bound to bump.""Round the curve" is right.  "Passenger train" is wrong, it was a freight.I don't know what "Both head lights were a-shining the same" might
means, but "Both *red* lights" would make perfect sense and be
accurate.  The caboose of a train stopped on the main line would
display two red lights.  That is, in fact, what Webb says they saw.
Thus, "head lights" is probably a mutation of an earlier "red lights."Webb said repeatedly that Jones told him to jump.The train being driven by Jones was indeed "Number One."(7) Seventh verse.When the news reached home that-a Casey was dead,
His-a wife and chillun was asleep in the bed,
"Lie still, chillun, and-a take your rest,
"For we'll draw a pension at your daddy's death."Jones died at 3:52 a.m.  His wife and children might well have been
asleep when the family was contacted.The matter-of-fact statement, attributed here to Mrs. Jones, is
another jibe at Jones.  In the Seibert version, "you [children] got
another papa on the Salt Lake line," which caused Mrs. Jones great
distress.  No indications have surfaced that either Jones or Mrs.
Jones was a philanderer.  On another "moral" front, Jones was a
teetotaler.(8) Eighth verse.Casey went to heaven right a-straight on from here,
And he told Saint Peter he's an engineer,
"You've run your engine so brave and bold,
"I'll send you back to shoveling coal."Saint Peter demoted the "brave and bold" Jones to his old job of
fireman.  Since there may not be much burning in Heaven, the
implication may be that he is sent to stoke in Hell.Casey called himself a "brave engineer" in this version.  St. Peter
makes his being "brave and bold" a liability.  St. Peter must have
seen Jones as reckless.(9) Ninth verse.Casey said before he died,
There's two more trains that he'd like to ride,
"Look on the map and you will see
"The Southern Pacific and the Sante Fe."I see no particular significance here, but this verse makes a
connection with other, perhaps earlier, songs, e.g., "Jay Gould's
Daughter."Although this text includes several minor errors, when compared with
historical facts, it gets a lot right:"IC" (Illinois Central)
"Stopped on the square" (stopped at Calhoun Street)
"Number 3 daily on the schedule card (Jones' regular run)
"This engine's behind" (so it was)
"southern mail" (correct popular name)
"'Round the curve" (they saw the parked train as they rounded a curve)
"Both head lights" (correct as "both red lights")
"Pick out a place to jump" (Jones told Webb to jump)
"Number 1's a coming" (Jones was driving train No. 1)
"wife and chillun was asleep" (it was very early in the morning)
"we'll draw a pension at your daddy's death"
     (she drew pensions from two railroad brotherhoods and perhaps one from IC)
"back to shoveling coal" (Jones had been a fireman)This must have been written by someone with intimate knowledge of the
facts of the case and Jones' career.Furry Lewis' version has a few features of this text, enough to
convince me that it could have derived, in part, from this one.
These considerations lead me to believe that the Holbert text is a
very early version.In Long Steel Rail, Norm gives the 1908 version, which also contains
many correct facts.  It shares about 7 couplets with Holbert (18
total in Holbert, 20 in 1908). It opens:Come all you rounders, for I want you to hear
The story told of an engineer.
Casey Jones was the rounder's name,
A heavy right-wheeler of a mighty fame.This is verse 5:Fireman says, "Casey, you're running too fast,
"You run the block-board the last station you passed."
Jones says, "Yes, I believe we'll make it through,
"For she steams better than ever I knew."Verses 9 and 10 are moralizing:Poor Casey Jones was all right,
For he stuck to his duty both day and night.
They loved to hear his whistle and ring of number three,
As he came into Memphis on the old I. C.Headaches and heartaches, and all kinds of pain,
Are not apart from a railroad train.
Tales that are in earnest, noble and grand,
Belong to the life of a railroad man.1908 is schizoid in its attitude toward Jones.  In verse 1 he is a
"rounder" (along with the addressed audience), in verse 5 he is
"running too fast" and "run the block-board the last station."  Verse
6 contains, "I'm going to run her till she leaves the rail / Or make
it in on time with the Southern mail." In verse 8, "He's a good
engineer, but he's dead and gone."  In verse 9 he is "all right,"
"stuck to his duty," and provided something people "loved."  Verse 10
implies that this tale is "earnest, noble and grand."Absent from 1908 are several of the Holbert jibes at Jones: "My name
is written on the back of my shirt / I'm a brave engineer and I don't
have to work," "we'll draw a pension at your daddy's death," and St.
Peter's judgment, "You've run your engine so brave and bold / I'll
send you back to shoveling coal."Haywire Mac's version is also schizoid, implying that Jones was
beloved ("The women stood cryin', both colored and white") but
reckless ("I'll roll her till she leaves the rails") and careless ("I
was there to tell the fact, They flagged him down but he never looked
back.")This leads me to suspect that competing versions of the ballad
circulated early on, one denigrating Jones and the other glorifying
him, or at least that the ballads varied considerably in their
mixtures of praise and ridicule.  Wallace Saunders is said to have
written his song as a "tribute" to Jones, whose death was to him a
"supreme tragedy" (Freeman Hubbard's words).  Hubbard writes this
immediately after quoting a close variant of the 1908 version, in
which Jones is a "rounder" who runs a "block-board" and threatens to
"run her till she leaves the rail," hardly the stuff to inspire
admiration.My suspicion is that the 1908 version is a mixture of an earlier one
(perhaps Saunders' original) that glorified Jones with one like
Holbert, which vilifies him whole-heartedly.  One version would
represent the views and feelings of those who believed that Jones'
actions were proper and that the blame lay with Flagman Newberry.
The other would represent those who accepted Newberry's claims to
have followed regulations and blamed Jones for his own death and
endangering the lives of others.This would run parallel with early versions of "Stack Lee," some of
which are sympathetic to Stack Lee Shelton, saying that he was good
and loved by all, and others of which paint him as evil personified.
In that case, political and personal motives were at work:  Shelton
was a Democrat, his victim Billy Lyons a Republican, and there had
been previous violence to Lyons' relatives, perhaps by Democrats.  In
the case of Cayce Jones, it would have been the IC and Newberry's
supporters against Webb, Jones' widow, and many of the common people
of the region.How did "Casey Jones, the Brave Engineer" become the "Greatest Comedy
Hit in Years" and "The Only Comedy Railroad Song" to authors Seibert
and Newton?  They picked up verses and versions that ridiculed Jones
and included them in their rewrite: "brave engineer," "rounder," "run
her till she leaves the rail," and "we're gonna reach Frisco but
we'll all be dead."  Since folk versions ridiculed Jones, it must
have seemed acceptable to make a "comedy hit" out of the story of his
death.  They appear to have replaced the pension statement with
"you've got another papa on the Salt Lake line."I doubt that this is a general theory of the tendency of songs of
tragedy to turn into songs of humor.  However, I note that The Great
Titanic, which today children at camps sing with great fun, involves
a story in which pride went before a fall: "They said it was a ship
that / Water could never leak through."  The song takes the proud
builder to task: "God with His mighty hand / Said that ship it could
not stand / It was sad when that great ship went down."  The title,
The *Great* Titanic, also seems to be taking a shot at the builder.
Perhaps the author meant *large*, or perhaps he/she was merely
quoting what the Titanic was commonly called, but it sounds as if the
"great" Titanic was meant to be a challenge to God, so the song,
perhaps written by a preacher, takes the mere mortal but egotistical
builder to task: "Husbands and wives / Little children lost their
lives / It was sad when that *great* ship went down."  Perhaps this
seed of ridicule is what allows even grown-ups to enjoy roaring out
these lines at parties, sometimes with the variation, "Uncles and
aunts / Little children wet their pants / It was sad when that great
ship went down."Anyhow, I wish I understood better the psychology that makes it fun
to sing about tragic events.
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<Furry Lewis sang several "Kassie Jones" verses with tag lines, "On
the road again / I'm a natural born eas'man, on the road again."  His
ultimate verse is "I left Memphis to spread the news / Memphis women
don't wear no shoes / Had it written on the back of my shirt /
Natural born eas'man, don't have to work."  Here this verse seems to
be an intrusion, not connected to the railroad story.  It could
easily be the older model on which Holbert's third verse is based.
Perhaps Lewis recalled it as a more familiar verse than the one sung
by Holbert and reverted to the original. (Is retromutation a good
word?) >>An excellent word. Now I ask you one, as Chico said: what's the date of the
Memphis Jug Band's recording "On the Road Again"? I've always thought Lewis
was directly quoting them. Of course, being a Memphis singer himself,
there's no reason he couldn't have learned it directly. In any case, though,
it's clear that those lines were floating around the Memphis music scene for
a while in the late 1920s (Lewis's recording is from 1928).<<(9) Ninth verse.Casey said before he died,
There's two more trains that he'd like to ride,
"Look on the map and you will see
"The Southern Pacific and the Sante Fe."I see no particular significance here, but this verse makes a
connection with other, perhaps earlier, songs, e.g., "Jay Gould's
Daughter.">>Unfortunately, I don't have an earliest-date for "Jay Gould's Daughter" --
anyone? It was around when Sandburg wrote in 1927.Peace,
Paul

Ballad-l members,        *Don't* open any e-mails with attachments (and if you have
Outlook Express -- get the security patches before this latest one gets
you).        Based on one which I just received, a list member has been
infected.  It is forging at least one name (Ed Cray) from the list, with
a different domain from his proper one.  This is the way that the
"bugbear" worm works, to make it more difficult to warn the person
infected.        Looking at the headers, I believe Andy Rouse's system to be
infected, and have e-mailed him a warning and a pointer to a removal
tool to disinfect his system.        Best of luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 01:42:27PM -0400, [unmask] wrote:> The bugbear virus has infected many computers, among which is our county park
> system.  It is insidious because it sends messages that appear to come from
> people you know; it makes up the return address from the sender's address
> book.        More than that -- it combines two addresses to build the one it
uses.  The first part (the username) is what you normally look at.  The
second part (the domain name) is often hidden unless you look at the
headers.>        When you open the e-mail, the message appears genuine but puzzling,
> because Bugbear takes its mail text randomly from the "My Documents" folder
> in the sender's computer.
>   So far, no problem.  It's the attachment that is the virus.  It is 50kb in
> length, and has an extension of any of these three:  .scr (screen saver),
> .exe (executable file), and .pif (program info file, which points to
> executable code).  If you open this extension, you can acquire the virus.        If you are using Outlook Express, Outlook, or Internet Explorer,
it can *automatically* open the attachment -- unless you have the recent
security patch from Microsoft.  It doesn't require you to be stupid
enough to open the extension -- OE is stupid *for* you. :-)        Best of luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I received the first such message several days ago.  Another came in over
the weekend.  So the bugbear has been at our list for at least a week.-- Bill McCAt 12:59 PM 10/13/2002 -0400, DoN. Nichols wrote:
>Ballad-l members,
>
>         *Don't* open any e-mails with attachments (and if you have
>Outlook Express -- get the security patches before this latest one gets
>you).
>
>         Based on one which I just received, a list member has been
>infected.  It is forging at least one name (Ed Cray) from the list, with
>a different domain from his proper one.  This is the way that the
>"bugbear" worm works, to make it more difficult to warn the person
>infected.
>
>         Looking at the headers, I believe Andy Rouse's system to be
>infected, and have e-mailed him a warning and a pointer to a removal
>tool to disinfect his system.
>
>         Best of luck,
>                 DoN.
>
>--
>  Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
>         (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
>            --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Don:Your message cautions: "Don't open any e-mails with attachments."  Do you
mean, "Don't open any email atttachments"?I use Pine (a UNIX program) for email.  That program does not tell me what
messages have attachments until I open the message.  If your original
message is accurate, I am doomed, given the spread of "Bugbear."  (I have
received two copies already, but killed the messages; I never open
attachments.)EdOn Sun, 13 Oct 2002, DoN. Nichols wrote:> Ballad-l members,
>
>         *Don't* open any e-mails with attachments (and if you have
> Outlook Express -- get the security patches before this latest one gets
> you).
>
>         Based on one which I just received, a list member has been
> infected.  It is forging at least one name (Ed Cray) from the list, with
> a different domain from his proper one.  This is the way that the
> "bugbear" worm works, to make it more difficult to warn the person
> infected.
>
>         Looking at the headers, I believe Andy Rouse's system to be
> infected, and have e-mailed him a warning and a pointer to a removal
> tool to disinfect his system.
>
>         Best of luck,
>                 DoN.
>
> --
>  Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
>         (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
>            --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
>
>

On Sun, Oct 13, 2002 at 12:41:24PM -0700, Ed Cray wrote:> Don:
>
> Your message cautions: "Don't open any e-mails with attachments."  Do you
> mean, "Don't open any email atttachments"?
>
> I use Pine (a UNIX program) for email.  That program does not tell me what
> messages have attachments until I open the message.  If your original
> message is accurate, I am doomed, given the spread of "Bugbear."  (I have
> received two copies already, but killed the messages; I never open
> attachments.)        *You* are not doomed, because the systems you use are not
vulnerable to bugbear -- or to other Windows-targeted virii.        However -- those using Windows with Outlook Express, or with
Outlook, or with Internet Explorer as a MUA (Mail User Agent) can be
infected just by sitting there trying to decide whether to open the
message -- thanks to Microsoft's "helpful" ways.  (Unless they have
downloaded and installed the security patch from the Microsoft site
which will eliminate this particular hole.)        I believe that OE and others indicate whether an e-mail had
attachments prior to opening the e-mail.  I know that my MUA, "mutt"
(also a unix program) does so.        With pine on unix you should have no problems.  Even with a
Macintosh, you should have no problems, because the virii are targeted
at the easiest targets -- Windows with Outlook Express and similar.
Those systems are easy to fool into automatically opening attachments,
hence the rapid spread of this worm.        Note, however, that you will probably be receiving messages from
virus-filtering systems telling you that a message from you has been
refused because your machine is infected with bugbear (or klez).  I have
received one message which had your username forged on it, so I suspect
that others have as well.  You are *not* infected (the unix system
cannot be infected by bugbear).  Tell people this when they claim that
you are infected.  And tell them that somebody else has the system which
is infected and is forging your e-mail address.        Good Luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

And some (probably most) of us Mac users STILL choose
not to use Outlook or Outlook Express because of it's
poor security and helpful (read: problematic) ways.I'm quite happy with problem-free Eudora Lite, even if
I have to paste an URL into my browser rather than
just clicking on it.Linn__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More
http://faith.yahoo.com

Greetings one and all!
If you are in the Washington D.C. or Baltimore Md. area or can get here you
are one and all invited to partake of the best of Guy Fawkes Celebrations.
This year the Center for Fawkesian Pursuits Has discovered new chants, new
songs and new desings for guys which are bound to delight and amaze.
Yes we will have the usual torches (non battery operated) Turkey from the
Earth oven and maybe even the performance of a 19th century pantomime.
We have now transcribed a bunch of these and they are wonders.The arrangements are general open house, keg is tapped at 4:30, rituals,
chants and celebrations 5:30 dinner around 6. A huge turkey is excavated
from the earth oven. After which there is the reading of the plum pudding
lines from Dickens Christmas carol followed by the procession out back:
Behold the (flaming) pudding.....quite a ritual these days too.All are welcome, no fee, children especially. Discover an authentic
traditional celebration -parkin, bonfire toffee and chants.Place- 402 Nancy Ave. Linthicum Md. 21090Date Saturday Nov. 9Contact- [unmask]We are two blocks or so from the Baltimore Light rail
15 minutes from bwi airport.Rain or shine!Conrad--
Want a free ride to Houston for the Big Artcar Parade?
April
I need a male navigator helper to ride there and back.
Expense sharing optional. Send me an e.mail
[unmask]

Hi folks:I'm looking for someone out there who's familiar with the 1929 recording by
George "Shortbuckle" Roark "My Old Coon Dog". Are the words something like
this?:Somebody stole my old coon dog
I wish they'd bring him back
He drove the big 'uns over the fence
An' the little ones through the crack.Is there also a chorus ending "Way down in Rackensack"?Thanks in advance!Peace,
Paul

>I'm looking for someone out there who's familiar with the 1929 recording by
>George "Shortbuckle" Roark "My Old Coon Dog".I cannot answer this query, but it triggers my comment that there is
a photograph of Roark and four of his children with Bradley Kincaid
in Kincaid's "Favorite Old-Time Songs and Mountain Ballads, Book 3,"
1930, p. 11.This volume also contains an article entitled, "Bradley's Annual
Quest for Old Songs," stating that he spends "much of each summer
searching the mountains for men and women who have in their memories
the songs which the pioneers who followed Daniel Boone into the
Cumberland mountains made up about the triumphs and tragedies of
their daily lives."  This article mentions that Sam Hurt (Bradley's
cousin) "sings the old mountain songs, many of them taught him by
Bradley's father, the singing hunter who at the close of a fox hunt
traded a houn'dog for the first guitar which he brought home to his
little son, Bradley, whom he had named for Kentucky's noted Governor.
 From a dusty shelf, Sam took an old tablet, its pages yellowed with
the years, and there, written in a fine hand, were many old folk
songs, many of them credited to Bradley's father.  That was a
fruitful day, like many others Bradley must spend each summer so that
during the winter days and nights he may continue to sing to you the
oldest and best of American Folk Songs."Thus, Kincaid appears to have been a singer/collector, much like B.
L. Lunsford and others.I find the following on the WWW:******
Author:        Bradley Kincaid, 1895-    .
Title:         Papers, 1923-1975.
Description:   2.8 lin. ft.
Notes:         ...
                These include one file of Kincaid's
                   correspondence and one file of newsclippings about Kincaid.
                   The remainder consists of manuscript and published ballads,
                   sheet music, song books, and lyrics.
                Unpublished inventory/register.
...
Location:      Berea College, Hutchins Library, Southern
                   Appalachian Archives, Berea  KY   40404 USA.
Control No.:   KYSX218-A
******I suspect that some scholar(s) have mined these papers and published
something, at least a thesis or dissertation.True?  Details?
--
john garst    [unmask]

<PRE>Don't know about the 1929 recording, but Burl Ives recorded it in the late
'50s

I don't have immediate access to my books, so I may be wrong in spots,
but -- Bradley Kincaid published approximately 12 or so short paperbound
volumes of songs.  Most were traditional, some were composed. They are
worthwhile. There was a book about Kincaid collecting information as to
the songbooks and also containing an index of songs and lyrics: See
Loyal Jones, Radio's Kentucky Mountain Boy, Bradley Kincaid.  Berea
College, Revised edition 1988 (1st was 1980).  Contains selected songs,
song index, bibliography and discography.  His books show up on ebay
from time to time.LewLewis Becker
Professor of Law
Villanova Law School
Villanova PA 19085
(610) 519-7074
email: [unmask]>>> [unmask] 10/14/02 01:47PM >>>
>I'm looking for someone out there who's familiar with the 1929
recording by
>George "Shortbuckle" Roark "My Old Coon Dog".I cannot answer this query, but it triggers my comment that there is
a photograph of Roark and four of his children with Bradley Kincaid
in Kincaid's "Favorite Old-Time Songs and Mountain Ballads, Book 3,"
1930, p. 11.This volume also contains an article entitled, "Bradley's Annual
Quest for Old Songs," stating that he spends "much of each summer
searching the mountains for men and women who have in their memories
the songs which the pioneers who followed Daniel Boone into the
Cumberland mountains made up about the triumphs and tragedies of
their daily lives."  This article mentions that Sam Hurt (Bradley's
cousin) "sings the old mountain songs, many of them taught him by
Bradley's father, the singing hunter who at the close of a fox hunt
traded a houn'dog for the first guitar which he brought home to his
little son, Bradley, whom he had named for Kentucky's noted Governor.
 From a dusty shelf, Sam took an old tablet, its pages yellowed with
the years, and there, written in a fine hand, were many old folk
songs, many of them credited to Bradley's father.  That was a
fruitful day, like many others Bradley must spend each summer so that
during the winter days and nights he may continue to sing to you the
oldest and best of American Folk Songs."Thus, Kincaid appears to have been a singer/collector, much like B.
L. Lunsford and others.I find the following on the WWW:******
Author:        Bradley Kincaid, 1895-    .
Title:         Papers, 1923-1975.
Description:   2.8 lin. ft.
Notes:         ...
                These include one file of Kincaid's
                   correspondence and one file of newsclippings about
Kincaid.
                   The remainder consists of manuscript and published
ballads,
                   sheet music, song books, and lyrics.
                Unpublished inventory/register.
...
Location:      Berea College, Hutchins Library, Southern
                   Appalachian Archives, Berea  KY   40404 USA.
Control No.:   KYSX218-A
******I suspect that some scholar(s) have mined these papers and published
something, at least a thesis or dissertation.True?  Details?
--
john garst    [unmask]

Dear all,I have just had the task of translating the following for the author of
a school music book that already exists in Hungarian, German and
Japanese. I thought I might throw the statement at you for perusal (the
content, not the translation... though feel free...!) in case we could
de-uniquify Kodály's work. The Beggar's Opera already comes to mind..."Followers of contemporary musical taste and official criticism alike
were quick to consider Kodály's collected peasant songs a veritable
revolution. In this they stated no less than the truth, for the message
that Háry János sent in the form of a folk song to the emperor was
unmistakably addressed to an oppressor.This use of the folk song is practically unique in the world history of
music, for Kodály took the folk song in its original form to the stage.
His genius enabled him to bring together the libretto with the folk
songs in such a way that they fulfilled the requirements of stage
music."

I came across a Hedy West LP currently on Ebay, Item# 912631678
"PRETTY SARO AND OTHER APPALACHIAN BALLADS"
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=912631678&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1-thought I'd mention it in case anyone was interested.  (I'm not going to
bid on it)
Lisa

Hi!        Here is my weekly list compiled while crouching behind the
defenses watching for white trucks. :-(        SONGSTERS        1570242457 - The Revival Songster, 1859, $1 (ends Oct-19-02
08:23:38 PDT)        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        912423872 - "THE CUMBERLAND RIDGERUNNERS", MOUNTAIN BALLADS &
HOME SONGS, 1930's, $5 (ends Oct-16-02 15:41:42 PDT)        912715454 - 2 books; American Cowboy Songs, and Buckaroo
Ballads, 1936 & 1938, $9.08 (ends Oct-15-02 19:42:20 PDT)        1569383548 - The Wheels of the Bus Go Round & Round,School
Bus Songs & Chants, collected by Larrick, 1972, $5 (ends Oct-16-02 19:16:21
PDT)        912816137 - Slim Jim and the Vagabond Kid Songbook, $5.50 (ends
Oct-18-02 11:00:33 PDT)        1570104844 - The Ballad And The Source by Lehman, 1945, $3 (ends
Oct-18-02 14:06:02 PDT)        1570354233 - Reliques of Ancient English Poetry by Percy, 3
volumes, 1864 printing, $139.95 (ends Oct-19-02 17:46:51 PDT)        913099413 - FOLKSONGS SUNG IN ULSTER compiled by Morton, 1970,
$8.99 (ends Oct-19-02 18:44:08 PDT)        913244294 - "Memphis Blues" by Bengt Olsson, 1970, $15 (ends
Oct-20-02 11:49:21 PDT)        723899156 - MEXICAN BORDER BALLADS edited by Boatright, 1945,
$7.99 (ends Oct-20-02 11:58:18 PDT)        1570607503 - The Irish Reciter by Toibin, 0.50 GBP (ends
Oct-20-02 16:12:33 PDT)--->    912693444 - The Singing of Child's Popular Ballads by Bronson,
1976, $24.99 (ends Oct-20-02 18:20:52 PDT)        912744968 - Lumbering Songs from the Northern Woods by Fowke,
1970, $9.99 (ends Oct-20-02 23:19:59 PDT)        1570761644 - Pennsylvania Songs and Legends by Korson, 1949, $9
(ends Oct-21-02 07:52:35 PDT)        1570150790 - American Songbag by Sandburg, 1927, $49.95 (ends
Oct-21-02 18:38:30 PDT)                                Happy bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy Rouse <[unmask]><<I have just had the task of translating the following for the author of
a school music book that already exists in Hungarian, German and
Japanese. I thought I might throw the statement at you for perusal (the
content, not the translation... though feel free...!) in case we could
de-uniquify Kodály's work. The Beggar's Opera already comes to mind..."Followers of contemporary musical taste and official criticism alike
were quick to consider Kodály's collected peasant songs a veritable
revolution. In this they stated no less than the truth, for the message
that Háry János sent in the form of a folk song to the emperor was
unmistakably addressed to an oppressor.This use of the folk song is practically unique in the world history of
music, for Kodály took the folk song in its original form to the stage.
His genius enabled him to bring together the libretto with the folk
songs in such a way that they fulfilled the requirements of stage
music.">>Well, Shakespeare threw a song or two into his plays, and it's possible a
few of them came from folk tradition (perhaps 'When that i was a little tiny
boy', aka 'The wind and the rain', not a version of 'The twa sisters" but it
may have contributed a refrain)...er, where was I? Oh yes...many of the
songs in the Beggar's Opera were closer to what we'd call 'pop songs' than
to genuine folk songs, but some were already traditional. Then there's
Dibdin's work, or did he write all the songs in his plays? A few of them
crept into the tradition themselves, afterwards.Sorry to not be making much sense...gotta go pack.Peace,
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Lynn Rigg's _Green Grow the Lilacs_  also used folk songs, including the
title song, very effectively throughout.  The example gave Rogers and
Hammerstein the idea for _Oklahoma!_  (Which did not use folk songs).At 06:04 PM 10/13/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>I have just had the task of translating the following for the author of
>a school music book that already exists in Hungarian, German and
>Japanese. I thought I might throw the statement at you for perusal (the
>content, not the translation... though feel free...!) in case we could
>de-uniquify Kodály's work. The Beggar's Opera already comes to mind...
>
>"Followers of contemporary musical taste and official criticism alike
>were quick to consider Kodály's collected peasant songs a veritable
>revolution. In this they stated no less than the truth, for the message
>that Háry János sent in the form of a folk song to the emperor was
>unmistakably addressed to an oppressor.
>
>This use of the folk song is practically unique in the world history of
>music, for Kodály took the folk song in its original form to the stage.
>His genius enabled him to bring together the libretto with the folk
>songs in such a way that they fulfilled the requirements of stage
>music."

Don't forget the MacColl/Seeger Radio Ballads. Nor Ken Burns' work (though
those ised just the tunes)Bill McCarthy wrote:> Lynn Rigg's _Green Grow the Lilacs_  also used folk songs, including the
> title song, very effectively throughout.  The example gave Rogers and
> Hammerstein the idea for _Oklahoma!_  (Which did not use folk songs).
>
> At 06:04 PM 10/13/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >Dear all,
> >
> >I have just had the task of translating the following for the author of
> >a school music book that already exists in Hungarian, German and
> >Japanese. I thought I might throw the statement at you for perusal (the
> >content, not the translation... though feel free...!) in case we could
> >de-uniquify Kodály's work. The Beggar's Opera already comes to mind...
> >
> >"Followers of contemporary musical taste and official criticism alike
> >were quick to consider Kodály's collected peasant songs a veritable
> >revolution. In this they stated no less than the truth, for the message
> >that Háry János sent in the form of a folk song to the emperor was
> >unmistakably addressed to an oppressor.
> >
> >This use of the folk song is practically unique in the world history of
> >music, for Kodály took the folk song in its original form to the stage.
> >His genius enabled him to bring together the libretto with the folk
> >songs in such a way that they fulfilled the requirements of stage
> >music."

>Lee Tharin's barroom
>
>Fred McCormickFred, or somebody,Tell me about "Lee Tharin's Barroom."  Is this a variant of
"Gambler's Blues"/"St. James Infirmary"?  If so, does it have
distinctive verses?Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

In Long Steel Rail, Norm comments that there have been several
reports of versions of  "Casey Jones" that are similar to, but
slightly different from, that published in March, 1908, in Railroad
Man's Magazine."  This leads me to wonder if anyone has recovered a
"Casey Jones" broadside.  The time and place would be suitable for
another production from W. T. Blankenship, who published, as
broadsides, "John Henry, the Steel Driving Man" and "The Great
Titanic."
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred McCormick <[unmask]>Lisa wrote,
>I came across a Hedy West LP currently on Ebay, Item# 912631678
"PRETTY SARO AND OTHER APPALACHIAN BALLADS"<<The disc in question was issued by Topic Records of London, England under
the
above title, with the matrix 12T146. It is one of three LPs which HW made
for
Topic while she was living in England in the mid '60s. The other two were:
Ballads. 12T 163 and Old Times and Hard Times. 12T 117.All three discs are superlative and well worth bidding for. However, I have
an idea that the discs were re-released by Folk Legacy in the USA. If so, it
is possible that FL might have re-released them on CD (Topic haven't).>>Folk-Legacy released "Old Times and Hard Times" on LP and cassette; they
still have some cassettes available. As far as I know they never put out
"Ballads" or "Pretty Saro". I'd love to see the latter two reissued on CD.Peace,
Paul

Hi folks:I've taken the liberty of forwarding this from the folkdj-l listserv.Peace,
Paul----- Original Message -----
From: Dick Pleasants <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: [FOLKDJ-L] request for Dave Van Ronk interviewsFrom Dick Pleasants WUMB and WGBH in Boston.Elijah Wald, who was working with Dave Van Ronk on Dave's memoir of the
folk revival, is attempting to complete some version of the book despite
Dave's tragic death last year. The book was to be a personal history of
the Greenwich Village scene, told in Dave's own words, and Elijah is
looking for anyone who might have interviews or concert recordings
including Dave's memories, stories and/or thoughts relating to that
period. If so, please get in touch with him. He will of course give full
credit to all who supply such material. The book was begun as a
collaboration, and is being completed in partnership with Dave's wife.
He hopes to have it finished by this time next year.
Elijah's address and contact information are:Elijah Wald
21 Lakeview Ave.
Cambridge MA 02138Email: [unmask]
Phone: 617-868-7748

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

See http://www.musicweb.uk.net/railways_in_music.htmfor a lot of titles.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Now that certainly would be interesting.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 7:35 AM
Subject: Casey Jones broadside?> In Long Steel Rail, Norm comments that there have been several
> reports of versions of  "Casey Jones" that are similar to, but
> slightly different from, that published in March, 1908, in Railroad
> Man's Magazine."  This leads me to wonder if anyone has recovered a
> "Casey Jones" broadside.  The time and place would be suitable for
> another production from W. T. Blankenship, who published, as
> broadsides, "John Henry, the Steel Driving Man" and "The Great
> Titanic."
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

Folks:This announcement was posted to the UK Ballads list.Ed---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 22:15:41 -0700
From: Medlit <[unmask]>
Reply-To: study of popular / folk / traditional ballads
    <[unmask]>
To: [unmask]
Subject: New JournalAnnouncing Volume 1 of Medieval Forum, an electronic journal for the
promotion of scholarship in Medieval English Literature.  We hope the
articles will spark a scholarly dialog between authors, readers and
editors.  Please visit our website at http://www.sfsu.edu/~medieval/.MF is dedicated to providing a venue for the free exchange of ideas
in a collegial, public forum environment.  Critical essays on works
from any genre or period of the medieval corpus are invited, and a
humanistic orientation is encouraged.  Although the focus of MF is on
literature, articles from other disciplines, particularly cultural
and historical, that will contribute to the study of literature are
welcome.Submissions are invited for Volume 2, anticipated in March 2003 with
a 15 January deadline.  Visit our website for guidelines.Please share this announcement with your colleagues.

>...Now I ask you one, as Chico said: what's the date of the
>Memphis Jug Band's recording "On the Road Again"? I've always thought Lewis
>was directly quoting them. Of course, being a Memphis singer himself,
>there's no reason he couldn't have learned it directly. In any case, though,
>it's clear that those lines were floating around the Memphis music scene for
>a while in the late 1920s (Lewis's recording is from 1928).
>...
>PaulIn case this never got answered, "Kassie Jones" was recorded on
August 28, 1928, and "On the Road Again" on September 11, 1928,
according to Dixon, Godrich, and Rye, 4th Ed.--
john garst    [unmask]

At
http://146.7.8.8/folksong/maxhunter/1300/1300.ram
you can hear Gus Nelson singing "Casey Jones," Gurdon, Arkansas, July
14, 1967, to a loud guitar accompaniment.  The editor of this for the
Max Hunter Collection gave up on transcribing it, but I find that if
you look at Norm's transcription of Furry Lewis' "Kassie Jones" in
Long Steel Rail you will recognize many of the verses - not all of
them, however, and there are small or large changes to some (large =
filling out an incomplete verse with an additional couplet).I'd like to know what people think of this.Here's my take:This is a white folkie who has copied some of "Kassie Jones,"
probably from the Folkways Anthology of American Folk Music.  He
selected a few verses, edited some of them, and added some others
from other sources (perhaps he made some up).
--
john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

On Sat, Oct 19, 2002 at 05:32:54AM -0400, Fred McCormick wrote:
>
> Dolores wrote:-
> > >>> 1570104844 - The Ballad And The Source by Lehman, 1945, $3 (ends
> >> Oct-18-02 14:06:02 PDT)
> >>
> > John Moulden wrote:-
> > Surely this is a novel.
> >
> > It is indeed, and easily available in secondhand bookshops, in the UK at
> > any rate.Your list producer hangs her head in shame. I had not heard of this book
before and the auction had minimum description. I went by the title. I
apologize for including it. :-( Thanks for informing me of the error.                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dolores:I do not know how many times in a used book store I have grabbed for the
title _The Folklore of Business,_ by Thurman Arnold.Thurmond Arnold was a New Deal trust buster, later a founding partner in
the powerful law firm of Arnold, Fortas and Porter.  His book was a
scathing critique of 1920-1930s business practices, and had nothing to do
with folklore at all.EdOn Sat, 19 Oct 2002, Dolores Nichols wrote:> On Sat, Oct 19, 2002 at 05:32:54AM -0400, Fred McCormick wrote:
> >
> > Dolores wrote:-
> > > >>> 1570104844 - The Ballad And The Source by Lehman, 1945, $3 (ends
> > >> Oct-18-02 14:06:02 PDT)
> > >>
> > > John Moulden wrote:-
> > > Surely this is a novel.
> > >
> > > It is indeed, and easily available in secondhand bookshops, in the UK at
> > > any rate.
>
> Your list producer hangs her head in shame. I had not heard of this book
> before and the auction had minimum description. I went by the title. I
> apologize for including it. :-( Thanks for informing me of the error.
>
>                                 Dolores
>
> --
> Dolores Nichols                 |
> D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
> Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>         --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Folks:The Los Angeles Times this morning reports the death at age 96 of Allen
Walker Read, a lexicographer famed for tracing the origins of the phrase
"OK."  The obit by Claudia Luther mentioned a number of his other books,
his scholarly disquisitions, etc., but failed to mention his witty,
tongue-in-cheek 1935 collection of outhouse inscriptions, _Lexical
Evidence from Folk Epigraphy in Western North America,_ which was
privately printed in Paris (where else?) in a press run of 75 signed
copies.While this is an important early work on folk bawdry, it has been
reprinted just once since, by Maledicta Press in 1977.  I might add that a
number of traditional song verses turn up as quatrains on the walls of the
better public lavatories.Ed

Hi!        Here I am again! There are no songsters this time :-( However,
there is enought Bradley Kincaid and other 1930's radio singers material
that I will list them separately.        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        1570888427 - On a Green Grass Horn, Old Scotch and English
Ballads, 1965, $4.95 (ends Oct-21-02 17:15:41 PDT)        1570936565 - THE OXFORD BOOK OF BALLADS edited by KINSLEY, 1970
reprint, $20 (ends Oct-21-02 20:12:29 PDT)        1570983170 - AMERICAN FOLK TALES AND SONGS AND OTHER EXAMPLES OF
ENGLISH-AMERICAN TRADITION by chase, 1963 printing, $3.50 (ends
Oct-22-02 05:28:46 PDT)        913773712 - The Christy's Minstrels song Book ; 3 volumes in
One, 4.99 GBP (ends Oct-22-02 13:42:36 PDT)        913778246 - Minstrels of the Mine Patch by Korson, 1964 edition,
5 GBP (ends Oct-22-02 14:02:33 PDT)        913906122 - THE FOLK SONGS OF NORTH AMERICA IN THE ENGLISH
LANGUAGE BY ALAN LOMAX, 1960, $12 (ends Oct-23-02 05:42:30 PDT)        914078926 - Creek-Music Ozark Mountain Ballads by Taylor, 1981,
$4.99 (ends Oct-23-02 20:39:32 PDT)        1571409031 - Kansas Folklore by Sackett and Koch, $3.50 (ends
Oct-23-02 20:59:05 PDT)        1571428283 - COLONIAL BALLADS by Anderson, 1962, $15 AU (ends
Oct-24-02 00:41:44 PDT)        1570867304 - Studies in Erotic Folklore and Bibliography by
Legman, $9.95 (ends Oct-24-02 15:17:42 PDT)        914276098 - FOLK MUSIC IN AMERICA: A Reference Guide by Miller,
1986, $29.99 (ends Oct-24-02 16:42:52 PDT)        1571632273 - 80 ENGLISH FOLK SONGS from The SOUTHERN
APPALACHIANS, collected by Sharp & Karpeles, 1968 trade paperback, $15
(ends Oct-24-02 18:46:06 PDT)        1571658162 - Anglo-American Folksong Style by Abrahams & Foss,
1968, $9.99 (ends Oct-24-02 20:05:50 PDT)        1571661893 - WHITE SPIRITUALS IN THE SOUTHERN UPLANDS by
Jackson, 1965 Dover reprint, $10.49 (ends Oct-24-02 20:20:48 PDT)        914336426 - The Leadbelly Songbook : The Ballads,
Blues and Folksongs of Huddie Ledbetter, 1962, $39.99 (ends Oct-24-02
20:47:33 PDT)        1571920326 - 2 books, Sampler of American Songs and FOLKSINGERS
AND FOLKSONGS IN AMERICA, 1969 & 1960, $5.99 (ends Oct-26-02 06:48:45
PDT)        914671199 - SONG DEX TREASURY OF HUMOROUS AND NOSTALGIC SONGS,
1956, $3.99 (ends Oct-26-02 16:19:04 PDT)        1572083596 - The Parlour Songbook by Turner, 1973, $19.99 (ends
Oct-26-02 20:14:32 PDT)        1571808150 - Singing Family of The Cumberlands by Jean Ritchie,
1955, $24.99 (ends Oct-28-02 13:46:06 PST)        1930'S RADIO RELATED SONGBOOKS        913907162 - 10 songbooks from the 1930's, $9.99 (ends Oct-23-02
05:53:01 PDT)        914052072 - AMERICAN FOLK SONG FOLIO. RADIO STATION KITE, KANSAS
CITY, MISSOURI. 1939, $3 (ends Oct-23-02 18:42:03 PDT)        914052488 - CARSON J. ROBISON'S WORLD'S GREATEST COLLECTION OF
MOUNTAIN BALLADS AND OLD TIME SONGS, 1930, $9.99 (ends Oct-23-02
18:44:03 PDT)        914052500 - BRADLEY KINCAID SONGBOOK NO. 12, 1941, $9.99 (ends
Oct-23-02 18:44:04 PDT)        914477453 - Favorite Hillbilly Songs and Mountain Ballads, $9
(ends Oct-25-02 16:12:11 PDT)        914508233 - Bradley Kincaid, FAVORITE MOUNTAIN BALLADS AND OLD
TIME SONGS, 1938, $9.99 (ends Oct-25-02 19:25:22 PDT)        914567477 - 20 "New" Cowboy Ballads by CAL SHRUM AND HIS RYHTHM
RANGERS, 1941, $9 (ends Oct-26-02 07:10:59 PDT)        914064538 - Favorite Mountain Ballads and Old Time Songs as sung
by Bradley Kincaid, 1928, $9.99 (ends Oct-26-02 19:34:46 PDT)        MISCELLANEOUS        One last unusual item -        914669972 - Manuscript of poem entitled "The Irish Lady" dated
1808, $24.99 (ends Oct-24-02 16:14:39 PDT) Does anyone recognize this
as possibly being a version of a traditional song? It seems to resemble
anyone of several.                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dolores:This is interesting.  "A Rich Irish Lady" is Laws P 9 (British Broadside
Ballads Traditional in America, pp. 252-53).  The ballad has been widely
collected in the United States, and some editors have deemed it a variant
of "The Brown Girl" (Child 295).  Assuming the text is bona fide, this
would seem to be the oldest collected version of the ballad -- though
undated broadsides do exist.If nobody else is interested, I will bid on this item.Ed

On 10/20/02, Ed Cray wrote:>Dolores:
>
>This is interesting.  "A Rich Irish Lady" is Laws P 9 (British Broadside
>Ballads Traditional in America, pp. 252-53).  The ballad has been widely
>collected in the United States, and some editors have deemed it a variant
>of "The Brown Girl" (Child 295).  Assuming the text is bona fide, this
>would seem to be the oldest collected version of the ballad -- though
>undated broadsides do exist.
>
>If nobody else is interested, I will bid on this item.Go for it -- but if you win, let us know what it is.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I once snatched up (at a flea market in England) a volume called "Theatre
Handbook" only to discover it was a handbook of medical procedures in the
operating room (operating theatre).I, as a teen, read The Ballad and the Source, attracted by the
title.  Don't remember much, but do remember wondering where it got that
title.-- Bill McCAt 03:11 PM 10/19/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Re the Ballad and the Source, Dolores wrote,
>
>>Your list producer hangs her head in shame. I had not heard of this book
>>before and the auction had minimum description. I went by the title. I
>>apologize for including it. :-( Thanks for informing me of the error.
>
>Hi Dolores,
>
>                No problem, it could happen to anyone. I've never read the
> book, but it seems to have had a widespread circulation in Britain,
> probably unrepeated in the US, which is presumably why you've never heard
> of it.
>
>On a similar theme, I remember once spotting a volume on the very top
>shelf of a secondhand bookshop. Piping Handbook, it was called. Up I
>swarm, expecting some rare and ancient tome on the art of the pibroch.
>When I dragged it down and opened it, it turned it to be a book on plumbing!
>
>Another one to avoid is The Sword Dance, by Naomi Mitchison, I think. It
>too is a novel. Nothing to do with sword dancing.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Fred McCormick.

Ed, if you get it, let us know what it is.Bill McCAt 10:18 PM 10/20/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>Dolores:
>
>This is interesting.  "A Rich Irish Lady" is Laws P 9 (British Broadside
>Ballads Traditional in America, pp. 252-53).  The ballad has been widely
>collected in the United States, and some editors have deemed it a variant
>of "The Brown Girl" (Child 295).  Assuming the text is bona fide, this
>would seem to be the oldest collected version of the ballad -- though
>undated broadsides do exist.
>
>If nobody else is interested, I will bid on this item.
>
>Ed

Definitely interesting.  I would certainly bid on it but will defer to Ed.
Norm Cohen> This is interesting.  "A Rich Irish Lady" is Laws P 9 (British Broadside
> Ballads Traditional in America, pp. 252-53).  The ballad has been widely
> collected in the United States, and some editors have deemed it a variant
> of "The Brown Girl" (Child 295).  Assuming the text is bona fide, this
> would seem to be the oldest collected version of the ballad -- though
> undated broadsides do exist.
>
> If nobody else is interested, I will bid on this item.
>
> Ed
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Frank Whigham wrote:
>
> In volume 3 of Percy's Reliques, in the headnote to "The King and the
> Miller of Mansfield" (3.178), Percy speaks of a ballad called "King
> Henry VIII and the Cobler," which he does not print. I am trying to
> locate this ballad, but so far have had no luck. Can anyone help?
>
> Many many thanks.
>
> Frank Whigham
> =========================
> Frank Whigham
> Thaman Professor of English
> University of Texas at Austin
> Austin TX 78712
> 512-471-8794
> [unmask]
> =========================In Hales and Furnival's 'Bishop Percy's Folio MS', II, p. 147, the
title is quoted as "K. Henry VII. and the Cobbler", but they
cited no copy, and I don't know of any.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Folks:This is one of those marvelous conjunctions brought about by the Internet.
I am currently bidding on the 1808 manuscript copy of "The Rich Irisih
Lady," offered on ebay.The seller, Patricia Robek, has graciously agreed to provide me with a
copy of the handwritten text if I do not win the auction.  In return, she
asks:"Certainly I'll send you the transcription if you don't win the ms.  Do
you know of any currently-available recordings of this ballad, or
variations, or its tune?"Thanks very much for your interest!"I recall a recording by Peggy Seeger, lo, these 40 years ago, but cannot
locate it in my collection.  Does anyone have a cite for that version or
any other?Ed

Folks:You may have read the _NY Times_ obit or hear the news on NPR today that
Nobert Schultze, the composer of the music for "Lili Marleen," died on
October 14 in Bad Tolz, Bavaria.The until-then-obscure text, written originally by an otherwise unsung
WW I poet, was set to music by Schultze prior to World War II.  It became
a favorite, not only of the Wermacht, but of British and Anzac forces in
North Africa.  I understand that the text and tune were oft rendered into
bawdy parodies by the Brits, Aussies and Kiwis.  It is also true that
Hamish Henderson borrowed the tune for his bitter, satirical "D-Day
Dodgers," which Ewan MacColl sang on the Riverside LP _British Army Songs_
these five (!)  decades ago.So, let us all lift a glass to Herr Schultz, for giving us the vehicle
for such good songs and great memories.Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]><<This is one of those marvelous conjunctions brought about by the Internet.
I am currently bidding on the 1808 manuscript copy of "The Rich Irisih
Lady," offered on ebay.[snip]"Certainly I'll send you the transcription if you don't win the ms.  Do
you know of any currently-available recordings of this ballad, or
variations, or its tune?I recall a recording by Peggy Seeger, lo, these 40 years ago, but cannot
locate it in my collection.  Does anyone have a cite for that version or
any other?>>It's on the Peggy & Mike Seeger recording (w. Barbara Seeger & Ralph
Rinzler) "American Folksongs Sung by the Seegers" (Folkways 02005,
originally issued 1957, available as a CD-R from Smithsonian/Folkways). I
suspect she also recorded it on a Prestige LP or some other, but I can't
find any reference -- perhaps I'm thinking of "A Rich Old Miser", which *is*
on one of those.Peace,
Paul

Paul Stamler wrote:> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
>
> <<This is one of those marvelous conjunctions brought about by the Internet.
> I am currently bidding on the 1808 manuscript copy of "The Rich Irisih
> Lady," offered on ebay.
>
> [snip]
>
> "Certainly I'll send you the transcription if you don't win the ms.  Do
> you know of any currently-available recordings of this ballad, or
> variations, or its tune?
>
> I recall a recording by Peggy Seeger, lo, these 40 years ago, but cannot
> locate it in my collection.  Does anyone have a cite for that version or
> any other?>>
>
> It's on the Peggy & Mike Seeger recording (w. Barbara Seeger & Ralph
> Rinzler) "American Folksongs Sung by the Seegers" (Folkways 02005,
> originally issued 1957, available as a CD-R from Smithsonian/Folkways). I
> suspect she also recorded it on a Prestige LP or some other, but I can't
> find any reference -- perhaps I'm thinking of "A Rich Old Miser", which *is*
> on one of those.
>
> Peace,
> PaulIts also on,I believe, Hedy West's second vanguard album, and maybe also on her
"Ballads" record from topic. If anyone knows if any of her recordings have been
reissued please let me know.Charles Wood
[unmask]--

> The only Hedy West album that's currently available is a custom cassette from
> Folk-Legacy. There were some CDs produced, but Hedy repudiated them because of
> poor quality, and they're not available.dick greenhaus>
>
> Its also on,I believe, Hedy West's second vanguard album, and maybe also on her
> "Ballads" record from topic. If anyone knows if any of her recordings have been
> reissued please let me know.
>
> Charles Wood
> [unmask]
>
> --

----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Wood <[unmask]><< If anyone knows if any of [Hedy West's] recordings have been
reissued please let me know.>>They haven't been reissued officially -- a kid down the road from where she
lives was bootlegging them, issuing godawful CD-R copies of badly worn LPs,
charging outrageous prices (of which Hedy never received a nickel). When she
found out, eventually, she made him stop. She announced some plans to
reissue the records herself, properly, but hasn't so far.One recording, "Old Times and Hard Times" is, I believe, still available on
cassette from Folk-Legacy.The world would be better off if someone put her other recordings out too,
with good remastering and notes, and of course (if it's not Hedy herself
issuing them) paying royalties.Peace,
Paul

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of Ed
Cray, writes:> You may have read the _NY Times_ obit or hear the news on NPR today
> that Nobert Schultze, the composer of the music for "Lili Marleen,"
> died on October 14 in Bad Tolz, Bavaria.[...]> So, let us all lift a glass to Herr Schultz[e], for giving us the
> vehicle for such good songs and great memories.Alas, Herr Schulze also wrote propaganda songs to order for the
Wehrmacht, urging it on in its exploits in eastern Europe.  The excuse
he gave later was that it kept him away from the front.  Eventually he
was officially denazified and allowed back into the music business.Rest in peace, anyway.I have hoarded all these years a copy of _Der Spiegel_ (roughly the
German equivalent of _Time_) from 19 January 1981, which contains a
Teutonically thoro article on the song, with copious illustrations &
texts of some of the parodies on both sides.  The Americans had the
last word:  Down by the bahnhoff,
  American soldat
  Zie haben cigaretten
  and a beaucoup chocolat.
  Das ist prima, das ist gut
  A zwanzig Mark for fumph minute.
  Vie fiehl, Lili Marleen?...At that time Leip was also still alive; he died in 1983.  There is a
nice picture of him in 1915 with his rifle, pack, & spiked helmet.I have looked at Der Spiegel's Web site, but its archive doesn't seem
to go back that far.  It would be nice if somebody could make the
article available on the Mudcat.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  A debate on how to cure the incurable is a debate between  :||
||:  crackpots & hired liars.                                   :||

I was surprised that searches of the University Microfilms
Dissertation Abstracts database failed to turn this up:Marina Bokelman, "'The Coon Can Game': A Blues Ballad Tradition,"
Master's thesis, University of California, Los Angeles, 1968.How should I proceed to secure a copy of this?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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