>
> Date:    Thu, 29 Aug 2002 06:52:59 CDT
> From:    [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Two questions..
>
>
> Jock the Leg (282) The Daemon Lover (243) The Earl
> of Aboyne (235) Scarborough Fair / The Elfin Knight (2)
> Lord Gregory / The Lass of Roch Royal (76) The Bonnie
> Earl O' Murray ( 181) Henry Martin (250) Clyde's Water /
> The Mother's Malison (216) The Lover's Ghost / The
> Grey Cock (248).
>
> When two titles are given, the second is the variant
> actually sung on the record.
>
> BTW, are you the same John Cowles who lived in
> Cambridge MA in the '60s?
>
> Hope tis helps  --  TomThank you, Tom! It does help. I am the same John Cowles who lived in
Cambridge in the '60s (and '70s). For the most part of the last twenty
years I've been in Japan, but now I'm (somewhat) established in Texas.  John--
     John Cowles             [unmask]
Telnet: 497-4375             Optimization Technology Manager
Office: 1-972-497-4375       Advanced Technology Center
Home:   1-972-596-6223       TCD Division of Hewlett-Packard
Mobil:  1-214-632-8652       3000 Waterview Pkwy.
Fax:    1-972-497-4848       Richardson, TX  75080

Dear Abby,   I use the first seven volumes of "Greig-Duncan" quite a bit, but it
is arduous (to say the least) without the index! I got the information
that it was complete from Bill Marshall at James Thin before they went
bankrupt. He said that Mercat Press had arranged a management buyout
and was to continue independently (April, 2002), but since then I've
heard nothing.
 Yes!! Discount! Lovely ring to it. Who is Greenhaus of Camsco and where
do I post my "stats"? Thiry-five pounds a volume is a hefty amount when
your book budget comes from your salary!
 Thank you also for your title-listing of the MacColl/Lloyd record! I
didn't find these until the Washington set appeared, and even searching
for almost forty years I've still not found that elusive 7th record.
Some of these (Jock the Leg, James Herries and The Mother's Malison)
appear to be versions I've never heard sung!  John> Date:    Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:17:15 -0400
> From:    Abby Sale <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Two questions..
>
> > Does anyone have any news on the final (8th) volume of the Greig-Duncan
> >Ballad Collection? It was due out a couple of years ago, but as far as I
> >know, it never appeared.
> >
> I'd be much interested, too.  Two publishers have gone out of business
> printing the treasure.  I just tried the James Thin Booksellers website
> but (no surprise) it's gone.  As Ed said, it maybe depends on the
> bankruptcy laws.
>
> About a year ago the site claimed it was finished and would be out "soon."
> This was premature, of course.
>
> I'll write Dr Lyle and ask her if noone here comes up with a better idea
> in the next few days.  (I hate to nag the good lady.)
>
> 1) Has anyone scanned a general index for the set?  That would be handy.
>
> 2) Does Greenhaus of Camsco (in this case) have your stats so he can get
> the volume at "our customary discount" when it _does_ come out.  I'm not
> sure Wally gave him a complete list of everybody who originally or later
> ordered.
>
> If I am counting correctly, that's vol IV, disk 1 of Riverside:
>
> In order, Side A:
> Jock The Leg (282)["...and the Merry Merchant"]  (MacColl)
> Daemon Lover, The (243)(James Herries)  (Lloyd)
> Earl of Aboyne, The (235)  (MacColl)
> Scarborough Fair (2)(The Elfin Knight)  (Lloyd)
> Lord Gregory (76)(Lass of Roch Royal)  (MacColl)
>
> Side B:
> Bonnie Earl o' Murray, The (181)  (MacColl)
> Henry Martin (250)  (Lloyd)
> Clyde's Water (216)(The Mother's Malison)  (MacColl)
> Lover's Ghost, The (248)(The Grey Cock)  (Lloyd)
>
> (This Riverside set was the first one I bought - nearly the day it hit the
> record stores - and still my favorite.  I finally got around to learning
> "Clyde's Water" just last month.  Great song for explaining to kids they
> should heed their parents....well, I guess there are other
> interpretations, too.)
>
> No, best of my knowledge there've been no rumblings of reissue, sadly.
>--
     John Cowles             [unmask]
Telnet: 497-4375             Optimization Technology Manager
Office: 1-972-497-4375       Advanced Technology Center
Home:   1-972-596-6223       TCD Division of Hewlett-Packard
Mobil:  1-214-632-8652       3000 Waterview Pkwy.
Fax:    1-972-497-4848       Richardson, TX  75080

>> Does anyone have any news on the final (8th) volume of the Greig-Duncan
>> Ballad Collection? It was due out a couple of years ago, but as far as I
>> know, it never appeared.
> I'd be much interested, too.  Two publishers have gone out of business
> printing the treasure.  I just tried the James Thin Booksellers website
> but (no surprise) it's gone.  As Ed said, it maybe depends on the
> bankruptcy laws.I just phoned them up.  They say it should be out in early October
and they'll send me an email when it happens.  I'll pass on any
message I get.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 06:52:59 CDT, [unmask] wrote:>BTW, are you the same John Cowles who lived in
>Cambridge MA in the '60s?_I_ lived there in '59-'60 but you don't look familiar...-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:56:54 CDT, John Cowles wrote:> Yes!! Discount! Lovely ring to it. Who is Greenhaus of Camsco and where
>do I post my "stats"? Thiry-five pounds a volume is a hefty amount when
>your book budget comes from your salary!35 pounds plus shipping, yes.  Greenhaus is the same guy that posts here
(but he's probably still recovering from UK food this week - "Oggies all
around, barkeep") and, with Susan, is solely at fault for producing the
Digital Tradition folksong data base
http://www.mudcat.org/folksearch.html.He then took over Camsco records from Wally (and claims to be able to sell
_any_ folk CD at reasonable or cheap.) See http://www.camsco.com.We here at ballad-l put together a syndicate to buy the set from Wally.  I
think with his dealer's discount he was able to give 10% off and free
shipping if we could raise 5 orders and we raised about 12.  A significant
couple of bucks saved for that set.  Especially the shipping.  Dick will
do the same (depending on the possible deal he gets with the new
publisher.)  But he never received the full list of prior orderers.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Abby:Just in case Dick doesn't have my name on his tap list, will you let him
know I'm in?Ed

I will be glad to provide discounts once I find out a)who the publisher will
be (and if he'll give me a trade discount) and b) who wants a copy. I don't
have any lists (maybe Wally still does.)dick greenhaus
CAMSCO MusicAbby Sale wrote:> On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 00:56:54 CDT, John Cowles wrote:
>
> > Yes!! Discount! Lovely ring to it. Who is Greenhaus of Camsco and where
> >do I post my "stats"? Thiry-five pounds a volume is a hefty amount when
> >your book budget comes from your salary!
>
> 35 pounds plus shipping, yes.  Greenhaus is the same guy that posts here
> (but he's probably still recovering from UK food this week - "Oggies all
> around, barkeep") and, with Susan, is solely at fault for producing the
> Digital Tradition folksong data base
> http://www.mudcat.org/folksearch.html.
>
> He then took over Camsco records from Wally (and claims to be able to sell
> _any_ folk CD at reasonable or cheap.) See http://www.camsco.com.
>
> We here at ballad-l put together a syndicate to buy the set from Wally.  I
> think with his dealer's discount he was able to give 10% off and free
> shipping if we could raise 5 orders and we raised about 12.  A significant
> couple of bucks saved for that set.  Especially the shipping.  Dick will
> do the same (depending on the possible deal he gets with the new
> publisher.)  But he never received the full list of prior orderers.
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

----- Original Message -----
From: John Cowles <[unmask]><< Yes!! Discount! Lovely ring to it. Who is Greenhaus of Camsco and where
do I post my "stats"? Thiry-five pounds a volume is a hefty amount when
your book budget comes from your salary!>>He's Dick Greenhaus, proprietor of Camsco Music, a supplier of books and
recordings. He can be reached at:[unmask]He was also the chief compiler of the Digital Tradition.Peace,
Paul

Ed (et al)-I have no tap list. Anyone wishing to apply can contact me directly--It's
not really necessary to go through Abby.dick greenhaus
[unmask]Ed Cray wrote:> Abby:
>
> Just in case Dick doesn't have my name on his tap list, will you let him
> know I'm in?
>
> Ed

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Interesting point- I did recently see 9 volumes of the Scottish National
Minstrelsy by a JOHN Greig, whom I've never heard of.Ruairidh Greig----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Bartlett
To: [unmask]
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:17 PM
Subject: Greig-DuncanFor those of us asleep at the switch, is there any way to get this set (8
vols) complete? (I presume this is "Last Leaves" Greig).  Or the first 7?Jon Bartlett

I cannot help bragging a little.
I worked on the children's songs for Volume Eight - some of it is
remarkable stuff.
However, Katherine Campbell has had a bigger overall hand in Volume Eight
than me.
Emily Lyle and I share a dislike of waste, and she gave me for reuse a pile
of paper that was only printed on one side.
The printed side of one batch proved to be a draft of the index for all
eight volumes. How handy it has proved to be over the past year!
Another element of Volume Eight, along with all the parting songs and odds
and odds, will be biographical notes on the contributors.
If you are impatient to see the last volume - think how Emily Lyle feels
about it!Ewan McVicarEwan McVicar
84 High Street
Linlithgow
EH49 7AQ
01506 847935

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

> Date:    Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:49:48 -0400
> From:    Abby Sale <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Two questions..
>
> On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 06:52:59 CDT, [unmask] wrote:
>
> >BTW, are you the same John Cowles who lived in
> >Cambridge MA in the '60s?
>
> _I_ lived there in '59-'60 but you don't look familiar...
> This is understandable! I didn't get there until 1963! While I was
there, I sang at coffee houses, hung around Old Joe Clark's, had
a band named "Millrace" with Neil Rossi (the fiddler), wrote a ballad
column for a folk-song newspaper for a year or so, recorded a couple of
songs for Peter Johnson's "Pleasant and Delightful" series, did a yearly
'Child Ballad Orgy' for WHRB and ran a shop on Mass Ave called
"The C & S Talking Machine Co.", specializing in talking machines and
folk 78's. I am new to this list (thanks to Sandy Paton for the
introduction) and the only person I have recognized as an old aquaintance
so far is Mary Stafford (if she is the lady who ran Cafe Yana). For the
past twenty years or so I've been living on and off in Tokyo, Japan but
now am in Plano, Texas.--
     John Cowles             [unmask]
Telnet: 497-4375             Optimization Technology Manager
Office: 1-972-497-4375       Advanced Technology Center
Home:   1-972-596-6223       TCD Division of Hewlett-Packard
Mobil:  1-214-632-8652       3000 Waterview Pkwy.
Fax:    1-972-497-4848       Richardson, TX  75080

I'm told that a 5-6 minute segment on "John Henry" is scheduled to
broadcast on NPR on "Morning Edition" on Labor Day.  I'm told that
there might be a few seconds of me, stating some of the evidence for
John Henry in Alabama.  I'm also told that there will be a
corresponding WWW site set up by NPR.Brits, you might not be able to get this on direct broadcast, but I
think that the segment will be made available eventually for internet
listening.Stephen Wade is the author/producer of the program.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>I'm told that a 5-6 minute segment on "John Henry" is scheduled to
>broadcast on NPR on "Morning Edition" on Labor Day.  I'm told that
>there might be a few seconds of me, stating some of the evidence for
>John Henry in Alabama.  I'm also told that there will be a
>corresponding WWW site set up by NPR.The WWW site is already there:
http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/patc/johnhenry/index.html
--
john garst    [unmask]

John, Stephen:Congratulations.  Excellent (and appropriate) programming.EdOn Sun, 1 Sep 2002, John Garst wrote:> I'm told that a 5-6 minute segment on "John Henry" is scheduled to
> broadcast on NPR on "Morning Edition" on Labor Day.  I'm told that
> there might be a few seconds of me, stating some of the evidence for
> John Henry in Alabama.  I'm also told that there will be a
> corresponding WWW site set up by NPR.
>
> Brits, you might not be able to get this on direct broadcast, but I
> think that the segment will be made available eventually for internet
> listening.
>
> Stephen Wade is the author/producer of the program.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>
>
>

To anyone who keeps up with semi-popular versions of ballads--Somewhere in our NPR station's (KGNU's) Bluegrass LP library, I once found
an LP (1970s? 80s?) on which a semi-authentic modern group (Dillards?)
played a live parody of the Kingston Trio's "Tom Dooley," with a comical
spoken introduction mimicking the "extremely difficult" banjo figure that
opens it.* The audience was vocally amused.Naturally, I can't find it again; nor recall the group's name; nor does it
ring a bell in the formidable memories of KGNU's dedicated Bluegrassers.
-- Can any listmember supply me with a lead?All best,Michael Bell* - For anyone wondering what the joke is: The KTrio's banjo intro sounds
like the banjoist has just mastered Mel Bay Lesson One.

Speaking of which, I'm listening to a very nice version of "The Three
Butchers" (Johnson & Jinkson) as sung by Tony Barrand.  (Unless it's sung
by John Roberts.)  An excellent CD altogether, BTW, "A Present from the
Gentlemen."A good new-to-me tune for the deservedly ubiquitous song.  (It's the 1894
Broadwood version - see/hearable at Lesley's
http://www.contemplator.com/folk6/butchers.html)It's odd that for all the many tunes, the texts vary very little.It also fits into two categories I track...        Ballads Child missed (possibly because he _knew_ it was a
broadside and _thought_ it was not actually in tradition)and
        Ballads with alternate endings the singer may or may not feel the
option to choose the which of while singing in order to keep us in
suspense.  In this case, whether the treacherous lady get caught or not.
We certainly _want_ her to.I've always thought of this as an English and USian ballad but
Greig~Duncan (1st song in Vol 2) give M versions.  The only comment (about
1906) is that it is "an old English song."Ballad Index gives earliest date as c.1678 but no source.
C# (in _Appalachia_) gives only that it occurs in _The Roxburghe
Collection_ but no date.
Bodley online only has earliest of 1813.So, has anyone (especially Steve or Bruce) early words to this and/or
earliest record and/or is the 1678 reference actually from Roxburghe.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 11:17:00 -0700, Jon Bartlett wrote:>For those of us asleep at the switch, is there any way to get this set (8 vols) complete? (I presume this is "Last Leaves" Greig).  Or the first 7?Yes, Gavin Greig.  Except that LL is compiled of Greig's stuff by
Alexander Keith after Greig's death.  A fine volume.Also a nice book of unedited reprints of his two year's worth of newspaper
articles & songs collected and submitted by the local citizenry.
Published by Folklore Associates in 1963.  Put together by Goldstein &
Arthur Argo.  The late Arthur was Greig's heir of the collection.  His
grand nephew, I think.  For decades Arthur sat on this staggering mass of
superb song seeking an editor, financer, publisher.  He'd practically stop
strangers in the street asking them...well no, not quite.  But he was
desperate that the wonderful collection - the greatest of all the great
Scottish collections - not just die.  Greig was the greatest but unknown
outside Scotland.  He knew of Child and of Child's belief that Scots
folksong was essentially dead as a living tradition.  Child didn't know of
Greig who regularly collected ballads (most of which became "Child
Ballads" -that's what LL is about - others of which Child missed...) _from
tradition_ as living, sung material.In the meantime, his collecting partner, James Duncan's family was sitting
on nearly as extensive a collection with equal frustration.Finally, the whole schmere got put together and brilliantly notated and
edited as one of the true milestones of Brit folksong/ballad publishing.
Begun by senior editor Patrick Shuldham-Shaw and after his death led by
Emily Lyle (of the School of Scottish Studies) and many other leading
scholars.  Even including Ewan.A pretty good book.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Sat, 31 Aug 2002 06:22:01 -0400, Ewan McVicar wrote:>If you are impatient to see the last volume - think how Emily Lyle feels
>about it!I can barely imagine!About that index...-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Folks:Abby notes that "Johnson and Jinkson," despite being sung to widely
different tunes, is textually well-preserved in oral tradition.The same is true for the various versions of "Barbara Allen."  There are
four groups of text types, all telling the same story, all rather
internally consistent.  These text types are sung to as many as four
different tune types, higglety-pigglety, with no text type invariably
associated with any tune type.The explanation is simple:  The tunes traveled by oral/aural means.  The
texts were reinforced with broadsides and songster reprints.Ed

John Cowles wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 29 Aug 2002 06:52:59 CDT, [unmask] wrote:
> >
> > >BTW, are you the same John Cowles who lived in
> > >Cambridge MA in the '60s?
> >
> > _I_ lived there in '59-'60 but you don't look familiar...
> >
>
>  This is understandable! I didn't get there until 1963! While I was
> there, I sang at coffee houses, hung around Old Joe Clark's, had
> a band named "Millrace" with Neil Rossi (the fiddler), wrote a ballad
> column for a folk-song newspaper for a year or so, recorded a couple of
> songs for Peter Johnson's "Pleasant and Delightful" series, did a yearly
> 'Child Ballad Orgy' for WHRB and ran a shop on Mass Ave called
> "The C & S Talking Machine Co.", specializing in talking machines and
> folk 78's. I am new to this list (thanks to Sandy Paton for the
> introduction) and the only person I have recognized as an old aquaintance
> so far is Mary Stafford (if she is the lady who ran Cafe Yana).Well, there's me, and I was wondering the same thing as Tom - it's a
distinctive name.  Old Joe Clark's is still here, and Sandy and Milt and
I still live here.  Sandy still has the old shop as "Sandy's Music" on
Mass. Ave., and our back stairway is impassible because of Edison horns...!Peter Johnson has recently reappeared from many years of anonymity, with
a family, and is now putting on concerts again - with his peripateticity
and financial acumen seemingly unchanged.  Meanwhile, I'm president of
Old Joe's, the Folk Song Society of Greater Boston, and Indian Neck.If you contact me privately, I can fill you in on anyone else you knew
from the '70s.-Don Duncan

On 9/2/02, Abby Sale wrote:>Speaking of which, I'm listening to a very nice version of "The Three
>Butchers" (Johnson & Jinkson) as sung by Tony Barrand.  (Unless it's sung
>by John Roberts.)  An excellent CD altogether, BTW, "A Present from the
>Gentlemen."
>
>A good new-to-me tune for the deservedly ubiquitous song.  (It's the 1894
>Broadwood version - see/hearable at Lesley's
>http://www.contemplator.com/folk6/butchers.html)
>
>It's odd that for all the many tunes, the texts vary very little.
>
>It also fits into two categories I track...
>
>        Ballads Child missed (possibly because he _knew_ it was a
>broadside and _thought_ it was not actually in tradition)
>
>and
>        Ballads with alternate endings the singer may or may not feel the
>option to choose the which of while singing in order to keep us in
>suspense.  In this case, whether the treacherous lady get caught or not.
>We certainly _want_ her to.
>
>I've always thought of this as an English and USian ballad but
>Greig~Duncan (1st song in Vol 2) give M versions.  The only comment (about
>1906) is that it is "an old English song."
>
>Ballad Index gives earliest date as c.1678 but no source.
>C# (in _Appalachia_) gives only that it occurs in _The Roxburghe
>Collection_ but no date.
>Bodley online only has earliest of 1813.
>
>So, has anyone (especially Steve or Bruce) early words to this and/or
>earliest record and/or is the 1678 reference actually from Roxburghe.The c. 1678 citation is based on Kennedy, who cites the
Roxburghe version. And Kennedy prints a stanza, which shows
pretty clearly that it *is* the same song.FWIW, the long list of sources in Kennedy (which includes all
versions found in the Ballad Index except Laws, Copper,
MacColl, and Cazden et al) cites only Grieg from Scotland;
ditto Laws.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Hi!        Here I am on Labor Day laboring over my weekly list.        SONGSTERS        2135748995 - The Battleship Maine Songster, $4.95 (ends
Sep-04-02 18:19:29 PDT)        903791171 - Eva Tanguay's Great Songster, 1895?, $3.50 (ends
Sep-08-02 19:22:42 PDT0        SONGBOOKS, ETC.        1559045173 - Mountain Ballads by Raine, 1923, $2.25 (ends
Sep-03-02 18:09:56 PDT)        1559055819 - Songs of the Soil, Sizemore, 1937, $1 (ends
Sep-03-02 18:53:33 PDT)        1559272884 - English Minstrelsie, edited by S.Baring-Gould, vol.
1, 1895, $10 w/reserve (ends Sep-04-02 18:14:34 PDT)        902963073 - The Second Book of Irish Ballads by James N. Healy,
1962, $10 (ends Sep-05-02 09:32:25 PDT)        902967739 - SONGS OF THE ISLES by Robertson, 1950, $10 (ends
Sep-05-02 09:46:01 PDT)        903197856 - Texas Folk Songs by Owens, 1950?, $4.50 (ends
Sep-05-02 17:53:54 PDT)        903202374 - Home and Hill Country Ballads, Baker, 1943, $7.90
(ends Sep-05-02 18:14:11 PDT)        1559724138 - BALLADS & SEA SONGS FROM NOVA SCOTIA by MacKenzie,
1928, $9.99 (ends Sep-06-02 05:41:14 PDT)        1560002665 - SONGS OF THE SOUTHLAND by Sizemore, 1947, $6 (ends
Sep-07-02 16:59:16 PDT)        903442889 - The Leadbelly Song Book, 1962, $6 (ends Sep-07-02
06:56:34 PDT)        1559973418 - Adirondack Voices by Bethke, 1994, $6.88 (ends
Sep-07-02 13:57:01 PDT0        903708974 - CAMBRIAN MINSTRELSIE(Alowon Gwalia) A National
 Collection Of Welsh Songs, 1888, vol. 3 of 6, $24.99 (ends Sep-08-02
13:56:22 PDT)        903711022 - Same as above, vol. 5 of 6, $29.95 (ends Sep-08-02
14:05:32 PDT)        1559592337 - Folksongs & Foklore of South Uist by Shaw, 1955,
14.99 GBP (ends Sep-08-02 14:42:08 PDT)        903180010 - The British Broadside Ballad and its Music by
Simpson, 1966, $30 (ends Sep-08-02 16:32:29 PDT)        1559648632 - A Folk Song Chapbook by Kingston, 1955, $7.50 (ends
Sep-08-02 17:52:57 PDT)        Hope everyone is ready for Fall! See you next week!                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Abby Sale wrote:
>
> Speaking of which, I'm listening to a very nice version of "The Three
> Butchers" (Johnson & Jinkson) as sung by Tony Barrand.  (Unless it's sung
> by John Roberts.)  An excellent CD altogether, BTW, "A Present from the
> Gentlemen."
>
> A good new-to-me tune for the deservedly ubiquitous song.  (It's the 1894
> Broadwood version - see/hearable at Lesley's
> http://www.contemplator.com/folk6/butchers.html)
>
> It's odd that for all the many tunes, the texts vary very little.
>
> It also fits into two categories I track...
>
>         Ballads Child missed (possibly because he _knew_ it was a
> broadside and _thought_ it was not actually in tradition)
>
> and
>         Ballads with alternate endings the singer may or may not feel the
> option to choose the which of while singing in order to keep us in
> suspense.  In this case, whether the treacherous lady get caught or not.
> We certainly _want_ her to.
>
> I've always thought of this as an English and USian ballad but
> Greig~Duncan (1st song in Vol 2) give M versions.  The only comment (about
> 1906) is that it is "an old English song."
>
> Ballad Index gives earliest date as c.1678 but no source.
> C# (in _Appalachia_) gives only that it occurs in _The Roxburghe
> Collection_ but no date.
> Bodley online only has earliest of 1813.
>
> So, has anyone (especially Steve or Bruce) early words to this and/or
> earliest record and/or is the 1678 reference actually from Roxburghe.
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtmlIn the broadside ballad index on my website you'll see that there
are two 17th century versions, and the author of the earliest is
known (ZN782, also cataloged by Laws' # and Roud #), and both
were reprinted by Ebsworth in 'Roxburghe Ballads'.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Somebody snatch this.  The starting price is incredible.        1559724138 - BALLADS & SEA SONGS FROM NOVA SCOTIA by MacKenzie,
1928, $9.99 (ends Sep-06-02 05:41:14 PDT)Thank you, Dolores.Ed

This is a bit more pricey, but copies don't turn up that often:        903180010 - The British Broadside Ballad and its Music by
Simpson, 1966, $30 (ends Sep-08-02 16:32:29 PDT)Again we are indebted to Dolores Nichols, mistress of ebay.Ed

Yes, I've already spotted it and would like this very much for the VFSS
Archives.  I'm prepared to go quite high if neccesary. Jon Bartlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 4:31 PM
Subject: Wow> Somebody snatch this.  The starting price is incredible.
>
>         1559724138 - BALLADS & SEA SONGS FROM NOVA SCOTIA by MacKenzie,
> 1928, $9.99 (ends Sep-06-02 05:41:14 PDT)
>
> Thank you, Dolores.
>
> Ed
>

This isn't directly connected to ballads, but I know there are many on the list interested in nautical folklore in general.  Have a look at "Neptune's Court SCRIMSHAW Extremely Old.RARE. Item # 903734554".Cheers
Jamie

Dear Ballad-eers,
Having marveled at the cumulative knowledge herein, i'm taking the liberty
of passing this along from the Canadian folk music list.  Is it familiar
to anyone?Mary Cliff, TRADITIONS
WETA Radio (Washington, DC)Hello All,I tried posting this message on Mudcat and got no response so I am trying
it
here....I am looking for information about a song known as "My Little Daughers" -
it's been sung in our family for 50 years or so. The only verse we know is:"My little daughters, my little daughters divine, my little daughters, they
are my sunshine. They're lovely and they're fair, they're the picture of my
wife, Oh, my little daughters are the sunshine of my life."Does anyone know who wrote the song, if there are any more verses, when it
dates from, etc? Thanks!Bob MacLean

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Cliff <[unmask]><<"My little daughters, my little daughters divine, my little daughters,
they
are my sunshine. They're lovely and they're fair, they're the picture of my
wife, Oh, my little daughters are the sunshine of my life."Does anyone know who wrote the song, if there are any more verses, when it
dates from, etc? Thanks!>>A negative result: I searched the Harry Fox Agency's songlist under "LITTLE
DAUGHTER", but came up with nothing plausible. (Their software looks at
variant spellings, so "daughter" should find "daughters".)To the original questioner: Is it possible that someone in your family wrote
the song?Peace,
Paul

Here's the latest I have on volume 8 of the Greig-Duncan Collection:Mercat (the publisher) states that it will be available at the end of
this month. This should be considered to be encouraging, but not yet a
cause for unrestrained joy (been there; done that.) CAMSCO will be able
to dwliver it at a discount (most likely 25%), but costs (including
shipping) are not clearly defined as yet.Unicorn (in Scotland is advertising the collection for $75 (US) per
volume plus $2.50 plus adctual postage--I will be able to come in  below
that figure by a considerable margin.dick greenhaus

I've learned that Volume 8 is going to the printers this week and should
be out within the next couple of months.Aw-right!-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Mon, 2 Sep 2002 17:46:52 -0400, Bruce Olson wrote:>Abby Sale wrote:
>>
>> Speaking of which, I'm listening to a very nice version of "The Three
>> Butchers" (Johnson & Jinkson) as sung by Tony Barrand.  (Unless it's sung
>
>In the broadside ballad index on my website you'll see that there
>are two 17th century versions, and the author of the earliest is
>known (ZN782, also cataloged by Laws' # and Roud #), and both
>were reprinted by Ebsworth in 'Roxburghe Ballads'.
>
Thanks, Bruce, for the info.  I'm still some confused, though.  I last
downloaded your index in July so I may be out of date.  I find the two
refs but not any dates associated with them.  Neither on the songs nor on
the source refs.  Although I may be missing the source - one day I'll
_have_ to read the instructions...I was also hoping to find an earliest known text.  From your first lines
it doesn't seem to be any I've seen yet - Bodley, etc.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Abby Sale wrote:
-- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, FloridaThe dates are not in my entries unless they're given in the source.
My dating, outside of what's in the source, is given in the headnotes on
printers.At ZN782 in my broadside ballad index you'll see RB7 59, meaning
that it's printed in vol. 7 of 'Roxburghe Ballads' p. 59 (When
all else fails, read the instructions.) The CR 317 means there's
another copy, #317, in the  Crawford collection (now on loan to
NLS), but it's not been reprinted (see headnote of sources near
the beginning of file, for where they are, and if they've been
reprinted, and where). P. Brooksby, one can see from my headnote on
printers, printed broadside ballads from the West Smithfield
address from 1672 to 1684 (when his address changes to
Pye-Corner). (Forget that old c 1678 date, that's from 19th
century bibliography.) The ballad is by Paul Burges, a most
unfamiliar name.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

>
> Abby Sale wrote:
> -- -
> >                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>
> The dates are not in my entries unless they're given in the source.
> My dating, outside of what's in the source, is given in the headnotes on
> printers.
>
> At ZN782 in my broadside ballad index you'll see RB7 59, meaning
> that it's printed in vol. 7 of 'Roxburghe Ballads' p. 59 (When
> all else fails, read the instructions.) The CR 317 means there's
> another copy, #317, in the  Crawford collection (now on loan to
> NLS), but it's not been reprinted (see headnote of sources near
> the beginning of file, for where they are, and if they've been
> reprinted, and where). P. Brooksby, one can see from my headnote on
> printers, printed broadside ballads from the West Smithfield
> address from 1672 to 1684 (when his address changes to
> Pye-Corner). (Forget that old c 1678 date, that's from 19th
> century bibliography.) The ballad is by Paul Burges, a most
> unfamiliar name.
>
> Bruce Olson
> -Paul Burgis also wrote another broadside ballad, ZN2238 in my broadside
ballad index, and that was printed by P. Brooksby from his Pye
Corner address. Assuming that his two ballads were written only a
few years apart, then the "Two Butchers" one isn't much earlier
than 1684.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

The latest I've been able to find on the Greig-Duncan Collection is as
follows:    Volume 8 is expected by October 1, 2002
    CAMSCO Music will be able to offer them for $42 (US) plus
shipping.    It seems likely, according to Mercat Press, that there will
be a substaintial discount for ordering the entire eight-volume set. My
best estimate for CAMSCO's price on the set is $270 (US) plus shipping.
    Shipping costs aren't available as yet; media rates should keep them
pretty low, though. For comparison's sake, Barnes & Noble and Amazon are
charging about $60 per volume; Unicorn sells them for $75 per.    If anyone wishes, I can take orders now. Credit cards are fine
(Master, VISA, Discover), and I don't enter the tranaction until the day
I ship. The most secure way to send me a credit card number is by phone:
800/548-FOLK (or 3655)--You can E-mail me the information, but it's
probably best to split the number between two E-mails ([unmask]).

Hi!        There are enough songsters to justify a separate posting this
week.        2138641034 - The Grant Songster. A Collection of Campaign
Songs, for 1868, $60 (ends Sep-08-02 08:41:10 PDT)        1560372311 - The Bunker Hill Songster, 1850's?, $39.99 (ends
Sep-09-02 06:59:26 PDT)        903955957 - The Banquet of Thalia,or the Fashionable Songsters
Pocket Memorial, 1790, $20.50 (ends Sep-09-02 15:33:00 PDT)        1560770872 - HARRY J. DANIELS LATEST SONGSTER, date unknown,
$9.99 (ends Sep-10-02 19:38:55 PDT)        904730213 - The Popular Songster, 1869, $24.95 (ends Sep-11-02
12:37:43 PDT)        904849979 - FRANKLIN SQUARE SONG COLLECTION, 1891, $9.99 (ends
Sep-11-02 17:13:24 PDT)        The main book list will follow later this afternoon.                                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi!        Here is the main list. :-)        1560277506 - Ozark Folk Songs, 4 volumes, 1946-1950, $51.05
(ends Sep-08-02 18:47:29 PDT)        903827938 - Slim Irvine the Lonely Cowboy presents a book of
songs old and new from Radio Success. CHWC Regina, 1932, $4.99 (ends
Sep-08-02 22:35:56 PDT)        1560407946 - SONGS I SANG ON AN IOWA FARM by Cromwell. Collected
by Eleanor T. Rogers, 1958, $3.45 (ends Sep-09-02 10:25:03 PDT)        1560408645 - Lot of 7 books on Irish folk music and song, $5.51
(ends Sep-09-02 10:28:07 PDT)        903941185 - Reliques of Ancient English Poetry, Percy, 1847
printing, 3 volumes, $50 (ends Sep-09-02 14:08:42 PDT)
        also 1560751388 - volume 1 only, $2.50 w/reserve (ends Sep-10-02
18:36:09 PDT)        2137469225 - Carson Robison Song Book, Mountain Ballads and Old
Time Songs, 1930, $9.95 (ends Sep-09-02 19:16:54 PDT)        904432915 - 2 songbooks, george b german hamlins cowboy
balladeer, 1937, $9.99 (ends Sep-11-02 05:10:56 PDT)        904251537 - HISPANIC FOLK SONGS of NEW MEXICO by Robb, 1962
reprint, $5 (ends Sep-10-02 19:48:00 PDT)        904254190 - FIVE VIRGINIAN FOLK SONGS by Powell, 1938, $9.50
(ends Sep-10-02 19:59:38 PDT)        904275995 - THE BALLAD BOOK OF JOHN JACOB NILES, 1961, $14.99
(ends Sep-10-02 21:52:32 PDT)        1560966988 - Ballads Of The Great West by Austin and Alta Fife,
1970, $5 (ends Sep-11-02 06:08:41 PDT)        1561005430 - Treasury of American Ballads by Kennedy, 1954, $1
(ends Sep-11-02 07:27:05 PDT)        1561257696 - ENGLISH FOLK SONGS FROM THE SOUTHERN APPALACHIANS,
Sharp, volume 2, 1952 edition, $21.55 w/reserve (ends Sep-11-02 13:09:49
PDT)        904835473 - The Rebel Songster, Wellman, 1959, $9.99 (ends
Sep-11-02 15:54:09 PDT)        1560381980 - AMERICAN WAR BALLADS edited by Eggleston, 1889,
$29.99 (ends Sep-12-02 08:05:52 PDT)        905019588 - SONGS OF THE ISLES, Robertson, 1950, $10 (ends
Sep-12-02 12:01:19 PDT)        1561577443 - A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF EARLY SECULAR AMERICAN MUSIC by
Sonneck, 1945, $9.95 (ends Sep-12-02 14:20:02 PDT)        1561661859 - Merry Muses of Caledonia, Burns, 1964 printing,
$4.99 (ends Sep-12-02 20:39:06 PDT)        904080210 - The History of American Folk Song by Ames, 1955,
$9.99 (ends Sep-13-02 07:45:49 PDT)        904393294 - The English Folksinger, paperback, 1979, 1.99 GBP
(ends Sep-14-02 03:34:48 PDT)        1561497946 - The Ballad In Literature by Henderson, 1912, $6
(ends Sep-15-02 10:18:49 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hello,
I am just wondering if there are any ballad singers or scholars in my area
that I could communicate with or perhaps get together on occasion and
exchange some songs or compare notes.
My own main interest is  a cappella Appalachian ballads.  I also play
oldtime clawhammer banjo (mostly accompanying early American fiddle tunes
of Kentucky, WV, etc.).
I live in northern Columbia County in New York state, -about 45 minutes
southeast of Albany.  My email is:  [unmask]
Thank you!
Lisa

On Fri, 6 Sep 2002 10:38:45 -0400, dick greenhaus wrote:>Volume 8 is expected by October 1, 2002
>    CAMSCO Music will be able to offer them for $42 (US) plus
>shipping.Sounds good to me.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:51:24 -0400, Lisa - S. H. wrote:>I am just wondering if there are any ballad singers or scholars in my area
>that I could communicate with or perhaps get together on occasion and
>exchange some songs or compare notes.
>My own main interest is  a cappella Appalachian ballads.>I live in northern Columbia County in New York state, -about 45 minutes
>southeast of Albany.No, but it would be good to meet you, anyway.
How far is that from Marlboro VT?  We know someone there.Also, is John Roberts in Albany?I keep asking the same about the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area where
you'd _think_ there'd be many but ain't.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

>No, but it would be good to meet you, anyway.
>How far is that from Marlboro VT?  We know someone there.
>Also, is John Roberts in Albany?
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, FloridaMarlboro VT is about 2 hours drive from me.  Does your friend sing a
cappella Appalachian style ballads?
If you mean the John Roberts who is a member of Nowell Sing We Clear, well
they perform in the Albany area but I don't know where he lives.  I have
enjoyed hearing them perform at OldSongs concerts.  I have never heard them
do Appalachian style ballads, though  -does he do that in particular?
Thank you for your helpful comments, Abby.
Lisa

I hope this question isn't inappropriate--I'm looking for The Vietnam Songbook, edited by
Barbara Dane and Irwin Silber, 1969. I've checked
ebay, addall.com, amazon z-shops, etc.  I need it
in a hurry!! Anybody want to sell one?Douglas Cooke__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
http://news.yahoo.com

Hi!        Here is the main list for this week. The songster list will
follow either later today or tomorrow.        This may be the last large list for a couple of weeks. Don and I
are going out of town on family business. During that time, we will have
little, if any, computer access. I will try to post a short supplement
just before we leave. Then, you are on your own until we return and
catch up on everything.        1561784554 - Pissing in the Snow by Randolph, 1977 hardback
printing, $5.99 (ends Sep-13-02 16:00:41 PDT)        1561822049 - SCOTTISH AND BORDER BATTLES AND BALLADS by Brander,
1983, $5 (ends Sep-13-02 19:39:13 PDT)        1561992410 - Broadside Ballads of the Restoration Period, 1930,
$20 (ends Sep-14-02 18:50:09 PDT)        905486339 - Popular Music of the Olden Time by Chappell, 2
volumes, 1965 Dover edition, $16.50 (ends Sep-14-02 20:36:04 PDT)        1562079858 - 4 paperback books of Irish songs, 1960's, 1.99 GBP
(ends Sep-15-02 07:59:14 PDT)        905564560 - 3 books of cowboy songs, 1930's, $4.95 (ends
Sep-15-02 10:14:57 PDT)        1562190207 - The Country Dance Book by Sharp, one of his dance
collections not songs but uncommon, 1927, 4 GBP (ends Sep-15-02 15:28:48
PDT)        1562205209 - Old Time Ballads, 1879, $9.95 (ends Sep-15-02
16:48:44 PDT)        1562220311 - The Border Ballads by Reed, 1973, $9.50 (ends
Sep-15-02 17:49:44 PDT)        905823135 - ECHOES OF AFRICA IN FOLK SONGS OF THE AMERICAS by
Landeck, 1971, $6.50 (ends Sep-16-02 11:13:57 PDT)        1562387276 - Ancient Ballads Traditionally sung in New England
from the Flanders Ballad Collection, volume 4 only, 1965, $15 (ends
Sep-16-02 11:40:29 PDT)        1562436613 - THE SERBIAN EPIC BALLADS: AN ANTHOLOGY by Locke,
$19.99 (ends Sep-16-02 15:57:01 PDT)        905920104 - Folksongs of Britain and Ireland edited by Kennedy,
$3 (ends Sep-16-02 19:06:22 PDT)        906209205 - Alabama Sings, 1959, $9.99 (ends Sep-18-02 08:43:28
PDT)        1562788280 - Ballads and Lyrical Pieces by Scott, 1807 American
edition, $37.50 (ends Sep-18-02 10:09:07 PDT)        1562200360 - The German Ballad Book by Simonson, 1865, $49.99
(ends Sep-18-02 16:23:08 PDT)        1562594158 - National Ballad & Song: Merry Songs and Ballads
Prior to the Year 1800 A.D by Farms, 5 volume set, 1897, $32 (ends
Sep-20-02 11:33:57 PDT) This set is attracting lots bids. The price is
rising quickly.                                That's it for now.
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Go to www.bookfinder.com. It has links to other book
lists. Good hunting  --  Tom> From: Douglas Cooke <[unmask]>
> Date: 2002/09/12 Thu PM 03:18:09 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Vietnam Songbook
>
> I hope this question isn't inappropriate--
>
> I'm looking for The Vietnam Songbook, edited by
> Barbara Dane and Irwin Silber, 1969. I've checked
> ebay, addall.com, amazon z-shops, etc.  I need it
> in a hurry!! Anybody want to sell one?
>
> Douglas Cooke
>
>
___________________________________________
_______
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
> http://news.yahoo.com
>Tom Hall  --  Master Wordworker
and Intellecttual Handyman

Try contacting Barbara Dane, she may be able to supply one or know of a
source.
http://www.barbaradane.net/
[unmask]
Best wishes, Tom Stern.Douglas Cooke wrote:> I hope this question isn't inappropriate--
>
> I'm looking for The Vietnam Songbook, edited by
> Barbara Dane and Irwin Silber, 1969. I've checked
> ebay, addall.com, amazon z-shops, etc.  I need it
> in a hurry!! Anybody want to sell one?
>
> Douglas Cooke
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! News - Today's headlines
> http://news.yahoo.com

Douglas Cooke asked:<<I hope this question isn't inappropriate--I'm looking for The Vietnam Songbook, edited by
Barbara Dane and Irwin Silber, 1969. I've checked
ebay, addall.com, amazon z-shops, etc.  I need it
in a hurry!! Anybody want to sell one?>>In case not, is there any chance you could get it by interlibrary loan?Peace,
Paul

>We'd like everyone to know that a new position has been posted here at the
>American Folklife Center.  It's a "supervisory librarian" position for the
>person who will serve as the head of the Center's Archive of Folk Culture.
>It's a GS-14 position with a salary range of $78,265-$101,742.  The
>application period closes on September 30.
>
>The announcement number of this position is 020206.
>
>For a detailed description of the position and instructions for applying
>online, go to http://www.loc.gov/hr/employment/
>Select "current job vacancies, and then select "Vacancy #020206."
>
>David Taylor
>American Folklife Center
>Library of Congress
>

I'm a little late to report this, but I didn't really think
about it until now.The Stillwater Jail, in which Cole Younger was imprisoned
after the botched Northfield Bank Robbery, burned down a
bit over a week ago. It's no longer a prison, but the
Minnesota State Prison still occupies a site a very short
distance away.The old buildings were being preserved as a historic
site.The cause of the fire, perhaps ironically, was arson.
The perpetrators are in custody, but if anyone knows
why they did it, it hasn't reached the newspapers.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Hi!        Happy Friday the 13th! :-)        2139600662 - HANCOCK & ENGLISH CAMPAIGN SONGSTER, 1880, $25
(ends Sep-15-02 13:21:28 PDT)        905647810 - "Williams' Colored Singers: The World's Greatest
Harmonizing Octette" song book, 1921?, $4 (ends Sep-15-02 16:14:51 PDT)        2139701627 - SIX MILITARY AND PATRIOTIC ILLUSTRATED SONGS,
Series 1, 1862 approx., $200 (ends Sep-15-02 17:27:37 PDT)        2139959819 - West Bend News (Washington County, Wisconsin)
Songster, 1940's, $5 (ends Sep-16-02 11:28:31 PDT)        2100090920 - LOOKOUT MOUNTAIN NO. 2 SONGSTER, Date Unknown,
$3.99 (ends Sep-16-02 18:28:39 PDT)        2100434050 - The Zion Songster, 1854, $9.99 (ends Sep-17-02
19:24:02 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:18:09 -0700, Douglas Cooke wrote:>I hope this question isn't inappropriate--
>
>I'm looking for The Vietnam Songbook, edited by
>Barbara Dane and Irwin Silber, 1969. I've checked
>ebay, addall.com, amazon z-shops, etc.  I need it
>in a hurry!! Anybody want to sell one?
>
I won't sell you mine but if there's that much urgency and you're only
desperate for a couple of songs, I'd be happy to fax them to you.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:15:22 -0400, Lisa - S. H. wrote:>>No, but it would be good to meet you, anyway.
>>How far is that from Marlboro VT?  We know someone there.
>>Also, is John Roberts in Albany?
>>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>
>Marlboro VT is about 2 hours drive from me.  Does your friend sing a
>cappella Appalachian style ballads?Sorry.  I wasn't trying to be cute.  Both people I had in mind are members
of this group and I was trying to let them speak for them selves.Margaret MacArthur centers in Marlboro VT.  Her web page is
http://www.margaretmacarthur.com.  She doesn't do Appalachian style in the
sense of twang or "high lonesome" but does do many full, excellent texts
of old ballads of similar Scots/English sources to Appalachia.  She sings
them either a cappella or with very simple accompaniment so the texts are
not diminished.  She is good people and one of my favorite singers.I am wildly impressed with what she has recorded and that she has given us
(me, anyway) back the Flanders material.  For decades I've concentrated on
Scots balladry and the relatively few complete Appalachian texts (lots of
frags) and never knew of the superb material available in New England.>If you mean the John Roberts who is a member of Nowell Sing We Clear, well
>they perform in the Albany area but I don't know where he lives.  I have
>enjoyed hearing them perform at OldSongs concerts.  I have never heard them
>do Appalachian style ballads, though  -does he do that in particular?Well, now I'm not sure what you mean by "Appalachian style ballads."  John
does lots of English rural stuff but also many old ballads simply and
cleanly and also with nice vocal ornamentation.  He never lets
instrumentation steal the story or the song.  I was thinking he's local
there because his ISP is @[unmask]  His record company seems to be
Golden Hind Music in Schenectady.  He has a considerable repertoire I've
only heard a bit of (which).-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Hi!        Here is my good-by for a couple of weeks.        1562916020 - SOUNDS OF THE SOUTH, edited by Patterson, 1991,
$9.99 (ends Sep-18-02 20:30:06 PDT)        713543625 - MY FAVORITE OLD TIME SONGS AND MOUNTAIN BALLADS by
Bradley Kincaid, 1931, $9.99 (ends Sep-19-02 18:30:08 PDT)        1563278074 - Mormon Songs from the Rocky Mountains, edited by
Cheney, 1968, $9.99 (ends Sep-20-02 15:58:56 PDT)        906733503 - FOLK SONGS & BALLADS OF LANCASHIRE by Boardman,
1973, $2.99 (ends Sep-20-02 19:28:24 PDT)        1563457892 - Spanish Traditional Ballads from Aragon by Michele
S. De Cruz-Saenz, 1995, $4.99 (ends Sep-21-02 14:15:41 PDT)        906925265 - The Scottish Songs by Chambers, volume 2 only, 1829,
$12 (ends Sep-21-02 20:32:47 PDT)        907003535 - The English and Scottish POPULAR BALLADS by Child,
volumes 3 & 4 bound in one book, 1962 printing, $35 (ends Sep-22-02
09:35:16 PDT)        906736620 - ANN JUDY And ZEKE Hillbilly SONGBOOK, 1934, $8.99
(ends Sep-23-02 19:51:36 PDT)        This is not a book but may be of interest.        906690926 - 1866 photograph of Francis J. Child, $8.66 (ends
Sep-23-02 14:51:06 PDT)                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

----- Original Message -----
From: Dolores Nichols <[unmask]><<906736620 - ANN JUDY And ZEKE Hillbilly SONGBOOK, 1934, $8.99
(ends Sep-23-02 19:51:36 PDT)>>I'm bidding on this. I *might* bid on the Bradley Kincaid, but haven't
decided yet; if someone wants it, jump in.Peace,
Paul

This newsgroup now contains some more excellent music theoreticians
than when I perviously gave up on the subject here, so I try again.If there's anyone here interested in music theory, I would
like some feedback and/or criticism on a file I just added to my
website. It' GREEKMOD.TXT, and gives a table of 'Greek' based
modes based on a reversal of the usual procedure of deriving
normal hexatonic tunes from the seven 7-note 'Greek modes',
and the normal pentatonics from the hexatonics. For a mode with
a given number of notes the semitone sequences are just cyclic
permutations of a fixed series, and it's relatively easy to fill in
gaps, so one can start with the  2-note scale (ss= semitone
sequence, sum = 12), with ss = 75 (and it's permutation = 57), and go
upwards to modes with a larger number of notes. (I actually had to work
down from pentatonic to get the right starting semitone sequence here.)          ss
          75      C_______G____
          57      C_____F______
  Add to get      C_____F_G____ (Pathagoras loved this one)
               ss =  5   2  5Now the semitone sequence for our 3-note scale is 525, and the
other 2 semitone sequences in the series are 255 and 552. From
the semitone sequence we can determine mode# (explained in file
CODEMTHD.TXT on my website), and lets preceed the semitone
sequences by these to get for them:   66|255     C_D____G____
  528|552    C____F____BbNow mode numbers differ by 2^n (2 to the nth power) when a mode
differs from another by only having one more note, all other
notes in the two modes being the same, so we go up 1 note
(to the right), and up or, down, one. We find out mode#
differences that that 528|552 can't be the top one and 66|552
can't be the bottom one, so we must have the 3 3-note modes in
the order 66, 80, and 528, and our mode number differences work
for the arrangement, and we have:   2-note            derived 3-note
                         66|255   C_D____G____
   64|75   C_______G____
                         80|525   C_____F_G____
   16|57   C_____F______
                        528|552   C____F____BbThis can be repeated as often as necessary, and takes one through
the normal 'Greek' modes of 5, 6, and 7 notes, but there's no
need to stop there, and in the file on my website it goes on to
the 12-note scale with the monotonous semitone sequence
111111111111. (They all start looking alike after about 8 1's in
the semitone sequence.) ABC B324, mode# 2047, on my website is in
this 12-note scale this, and one can get to it via other observed
'Greek' based modes, starting from dorian or aeolian, but that's
not the likeliest way to get there. There is a much more likely path
through much more common non-'Greek' modes to it. See in the file.Another interesting path is that to the most common 10-note mode,
(which doesn't go to an 11-note mode that I've seen), 2038 (11
tunes), which comes from the most common 9-note mode, 2006 (melodic
minor, 114 tunes), which comes from the second most common 8-note
tune, #1750 (av7, 168 tunes), which comes from a common 7-note tune,
#1622 (aeolian with 7th both natural and flat, 6th missing, 63 tunes)
and finally connects with the 'Greek' based hexatonic dorian/aeolian,
#598, with 288 tunes. The numbers of tunes in these modes are much
larger than average for modes of the same number of notes. The mode#
differences here can be seen to be always 2^n between an pair- 2038 -
2006 - 1750 - 1622 - 598, which is a great help when trying to trace
paths of modes. (Mode numbers and semitone sequences of 181 modes can be
seen in my file COMBCOD3.TXT with the search and display program
CODEDSP6.EXE on my website.)There are 66 total 'Greek' based modes of all numbers, 2-12,
unless you want to count the keynote as a 1-note scale, then
there are 67.Thanks for your time, all of you (if anyone) got this far.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw">
Click </a>

At 09:31 AM 9/14/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Well, now I'm not sure what you mean by "Appalachian style ballads."  John
>does lots of English rural stuff but also many old ballads simply and
>cleanly and also with nice vocal ornamentation.  He never lets
>instrumentation steal the story or the song.  I was thinking he's local
>there because his ISP is @[unmask]  His record company seems to be
>Golden Hind Music in Schenectady.  He has a considerable repertoire I've
>only heard a bit of (which).
>-- -I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, FloridaThank you Abby     ;)
I did some browsing on the Golden Hind site ("hindsite"?)  and am going to
buy their "Dark Ships in the Forest" recording, which seems to have quite a
few ballads that I am particularly fond of on it.
-Off to examine my twang and play my merrywang.......
Lisa

I've modified the file MODETABL.TXT on my website to include for
all tune modes I've found: 1- shorthand mode description, 2-
notes in mode (which mode# doesn't give without calculation,
sometimes awkward), 3- mode#, 4- semitone sequence, and 5- # of
observed tunes in the mode.There are 6601 tunes in the data file, COMBCOD3.TXT, but these
include variants, but not duplicates of the same score from
different sources,  so there are less than 6601 totally different
tunes. The modes included in the file are those I've observed
(and coded in file COMBCOD3.TXT) plus locrian, but doesn't
include the unobserved modes listed in my file on 'Greek' modes.
A printout of this summary file would be slghtly less than 4
pages. The file is ASCII in double quotes + ASCII numerical,
so should be readable by most database systems, (after stripping
off the one-line header) and of course you can just read it and
do searches with a word processor. I'e also added a captial G to
the mode description for those modes that are from the 'Greek'
mode domain as I've derived it in file GREEKMOD.TXT.The ABC player and coder program, and the code display program,
have been modified to accept the expanded format of MODETABL.TXT.
Coding is done on all but grace notes. They are in the player
part, but after giving back their time to the main notes they
borrowed it from (timing to find stressed notes is thrown off if
one doesn't do this), they are ignored in the optional coding,
and display of frequency (in octaves), versus time part of the
program. Horizontal display is in measures, so one can compare,
say 4/4 and 6/8 versions of the same tune. A good tune to look at
here are J. Oswald's 4/4 and 6/8 gigga versions of "Saint
Patrick's Day [in the Morning]" in 'The Caledonian Pocket
Companion". The first half of the 2 timings are practically the
same, although casual listening wouldn't suggest this, to me at
any rate. [You're not stuck with this. You can select new x and y
origins and change their scale factors to please.]Programing attempts to exclude counting short notes in unstressed
positions proved to be too much for my meagre programing skills,
so all notes except grace notes are included in the note count
given by the program. Also, all repeats are included, so if the
counted (8) stressed notes aren't done before a repeat (very
rare), the last few notes are done over starting 1st measure
after the repeat. The program doesn't skip over the repeat and
continue on the next phrase.Here are some Child ballad tunes, #1, that you can play and
encode (stressed note and mode) and plot frequency verrses time on
with the player-coder program.X:1
T:Untitled from Pills to Purge Melancholy
S:Bronson, TTCB, C1-1
N:described conditionally as dorian [#854] minus the 7th [The
N:missing 7th makes it d-7 (#342), a common non-'Greek' mode.
N:keynote is 4th most common of 6 notes here.]
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:3/4
K:Gdor
A BA|GG AB cB|\
L:1/8
M:2/4
A2 Bc|
L:1/8
M:3/4
d2 dd d/e/ d/c/|d2zd dc|B2 d2 cB|
L:1/8
M:2/4
A2 GA|\
L:1/8
M:3/4
AB AG AB|G2z|]X:2
T:Untitled from O'Keefe' Highland Reel, c 1788
S:Bronson, TTCB, C1-2
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:3/4
K:G
D DD|G2 E3/2G/2 F3/2A/2|D2 z A AA|c2BA G3/2B/2|d2z2B2|\
d3/2B/2G2E3/2G/2|F3/2A/2 D2z2|G2B3/2G/2 E3/2C/2|\
D2d3/2c/2 B3/2A/2|G3|]X:3
T:There was a Lady in the West
S:Bronson, TTCB, C1-3
N:described as inflected 4th [so mode# = 1402
N:but that and C# are short unaccented notes not to be counted,
N:so mode# 1114, c-6, a very common non-'Greek' hexatonic]
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:6/8
K:G
D|D2GG2A/B/|c2BA2B/c/|d e/d/ d/^c/d2 B|c2BB2G|\
B3/2A/2 G F3|G3B2A|G/(D/ D3/2) z z2 z|G3B2c|\
d/(B/ B3/2) z/2 c/(A/ A3/2) z/2|G3z2|]X:4
T:[The Three Sisters]
S:Bronson, TTCB, C1-4
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:6/8
K:G
G|G2DG2A|c2BA3|GGD GAB|c2BA2 A|AAB c2A|d2G FED|\
G2A Bdc|BcAG2|]X:5
T:The Devil's Nine Questions
S:Bronson, TTCB, C1-5
N:pi1 pentatonic [Mode# 330, scored as ionian]
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:4/4
K:G
D|GAB/B/G|EGD3/2G/|B3/2B/BA|Bdze|dBGB|GEDE/G/|G3/2G/ED|E2G|]X:6
T:The Devil's Nine Questions
S:Bronson, TTCB, C1-6
N:pi1 pentatonic [Mode# 330, scored as ionian]
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:4/4
K:G
D|GGG/G/G|E/E3/2 DB|d3/2d/dA|Bd2d|edBG|A/G3/2EG|AB/B/DD|EG2|]X:7
T:The Three Riddles
S:Bronson, TTCB, C1-7
Q:1/4=120
L:1/8
M:3/4
K:G
E|A3/2A/ d3 B|A3/2A/ F2zc|c3A A3/2A/|A3z zA|Bce3c|\
B3/2B/G2zc|c3G G3/2G/|G3zz|]Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>On music from ABCs I forgot to add that there are very good
selections of ABCs on two of our list member's websites, Jack
Campin's and Nigel Gatherer's. Jack has done ABCs for all 200 tunes in
vol. 1 of Aird's 'Airs' which includes the earliest known printing of
"Yankee Doodle". He has also encoded some other rare sources.
Nigel has encoded about 450 ABCs from early Scots sources. Jack also
has file giving a treatment of tune modality with examples as ABCs.
[There are also about 850 ABCs on my website, the broadside ballad ones
having been recently corrected. If you don't have their website
addresses handy, you can click on them from my home page.]Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

I'm beginning to think there's no real theory for non-'Greek'
domain names. There are probably just semi-accidental branches
off of the 'Greek' domain chain, accidents that work out very
well.There are only 2 possibilities to get to harmonic minor by adding
just one note at a time to a lower order mode, and we have to go
back to a 4-note scale to do it. Note that all modes in the chain
below are observed (barely at the start), so this isn't just
theoretical. [I've observed less than 9% of the total number of possible
modes. Most don't seem to lead to music.]scheme- n|m, n = mode #, m = # of tunes in my COMBCOD3.TXT file
        :i, is the semitone sequence.Route to harmonic minor, mode #1238, and beyond
scale notes:
     4              5              6               7
 2325:
 82|1                                            harmonic minor
 A_B__D_E____
               \ A_BC_D_E____ ->  A_BC_D_EF___ -> A_BC_D_EF__G#
 A__C_D_E____  /  86|12            214|18          1238|21
G-84|1           :21225           :212214         :2122131
 :3225        8                    9                 10
-> A_BC_D_EF_GG#   ->    A_BC_D_EFF#GG#  -> A_BC_DEbEFF#GG# <-END   1750|168               2006|114          2038|11
   21221211:             212211111          2121111111other 9s from #1750
 1751:1
 1758:7
 1782:3
other 10s from #2006
 2007|5
 2014|8This shows the route, via familiar territory, to a good fraction
of observed 10 note tunes.Note that only #84 is in the 'Greek' mode domain, and we had to
branch off at the level of a 4-note scale to get to harmonic
minor, and once started we could go a long way. Those low note
number of scales are important. Note that in the tunes coded at
the back of Huntington and Herrmann's 'Sam Henry's Songs of the
People' the most common mode is the usual 7-note ionian. The next
most common 7-note scale is aeolian/minor, in 8th place.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:> On music from ABCs I forgot to add that there are very good
> selections of ABCs on two of our list member's websites, Jack
> Campin's and Nigel Gatherer's....Nigel has encoded about 450 ABCs
> from early Scots sources...Thanks for the name check, Bruce. However, my ABCs are from many
sources - manuscripts, books, records, friends, sessions, etc - and
they are mostly instrumental (not songs); I'm not sure how interesting
they would be for folk in this mailing list. A long-term project is to
build a collection of songs and ballads from my collection, but where
does the time go?I have a half-finished compilation of songs about marriage and
courtship in Scotland for which I did loads of research; I'd like to
finish it one day, if only for my own satisfaction. I carefully
prepared an extensive list of recording of each song, but it's now
rather out of date (to give you an idea, there were no CDs on these
lists!). If I did blow the dust off that project, do you think I could
ask the list for currently available recorded versions of the various
songs? perhaps I could flag up the list of songs on my web site, in
order to reduce clutter here.I'm basically thinking out loud - apologies.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

        One thing you might try which I find especially useful, if not
perfect, is CDDB. [If you are a MAC user it's the site iTunes uses to
identify the tracks on a CD when it first starts up.] I did a search for
"Ushers Well" and had the following hits:Displaying disc 1-4 of 4 matching CDs               Steeleye Span / Original Masters (Disc 1)
                  The Wife Of Ushers Well
               Jacqui McShees Pentangle / At The Little Theatre
                  The Wife Of Ushers Well
               Amps for Christ / Circuits
                  The Wife Of Ushers Well
               Silver Birch / Silver Birch
                  Ushers Welleach is a link to a detailed description of the CD itself. As I said, not
perfect but useful.        The URL for CDDB is http://www.gracenote.com/  The main page is set
up to search for artist but use the Advanced Search and it will enable you
to search by song title.At 7:22 PM +0100 9/19/02, Nigel Gatherer wrote:
>If I did blow the dust off that project, do you think I could ask the list
>for >currently available recorded versions of the various songs? perhaps I
>could >flag up the list of songs on my web site, in order to reduce
>clutter here.

Those of you looking for this might be interested in the new-to-me
reprint edition by Elibron (www.elibron.com), seemingly the same as
the Dover 2 vol edition, for $16.95 per vol. or $9.95 each for an
e-book pdf.There's a set on eBay at the moment with a Buy Now at that price ($33.90).John Roberts.

Nigel Gatherer wrote:
>
> Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> > On music from ABCs I forgot to add that there are very good
> > selections of ABCs on two of our list member's websites, Jack
> > Campin's and Nigel Gatherer's....Nigel has encoded about 450 ABCs
> > from early Scots sources...
>
> Thanks for the name check, Bruce. However, my ABCs are from many
> sources - manuscripts, books, records, friends, sessions, etc - and
> they are mostly instrumental (not songs); I'm not sure how interesting
> they would be for folk in this mailing list. A long-term project is to
> build a collection of songs and ballads from my collection, but where
> does the time go?
>
>..............................
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> [unmask]
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/I was embarassed, after my post, that I forgot to mention your
file of traditional tunes, in particular. I suspect many Americans,
which the majority on the list seem to be, aren't familiar with
your work, so I'll plug your recently reprinted 'Songs and Ballads
of Dundee', another mixture of rare old and much more recently collected
traditional songs, most of these being rather rare ones. Should I
mention 'Gatherer's Musical Museum'?Bruce OlsonPS: I've filled in more gaps in the mode relationship tree (it's
starting to look a bit like that with a lot of ivy connecting branches),
but these I'll add in to the file GREEKMOD.TXT on my website, and not
clutter up the list with them. I would plot it on a graph if I could
figure out how. My first two tries quickly came to grief. I've now
gotten almost all of the minorish (flatted 3rd) non-'Greek' based modes
attached to one of rather few branches now.I've also found, that, while it looks simpler and takes less
moves to get to some modes by simply sliding a note up or down a
semitone, it still takes the same number of movements (add or slide) to
connect up all the disconnected modes. Harmonic minor can be made
by simply sliding the normal 7th flat to 7th, saving 2 of the
moves that were in my chain. Now, however, the 5-note and 6-note related
modes are disconnected, and we have to use these 2 moves we saved
to reconnect them.Bruce OlsonBruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

----- Original Message -----
From: Clifford J Ocheltree <[unmask]><<        One thing you might try which I find especially useful, if not
perfect, is CDDB. [If you are a MAC user it's the site iTunes uses to
identify the tracks on a CD when it first starts up.] I did a search for
"Ushers Well" and had the following hits:>>[snip]Then of course there's the Traditional Ballad Index, which may have
citations of recordings by source performers. Some material at least has
been issued in the Lomax reissue series, including stuff gathered by Lomax
and Peter Kennedy. Got to watch out for truncated versions, though.Peace,
Paul

Clifford J Ocheltree wrote:>         One thing you might try which I find especially useful, if
> not perfect, is CDDB....The URL for CDDB is http://www.gracenote.com/
>  The main page is set up to search for artist but use the Advanced
> Search and it will enable you to search by song title.That sounds like just the job! Thanks Clifford.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

Greetings
I have only Volume IV (four) of Helen Hartness Flanders "Ancient Ballads
Traditionally Sung in New England".  I am interested in acquiring the other
volumes, and if anyone on this list has perhaps any extra copies in their
collection that they'd consider parting with, please do contact me offlist
at:  [unmask]
Thank you!
Lisa

Lisa - S. H. wrote:
>
> Greetings
> I have only Volume IV (four) of Helen Hartness Flanders "Ancient Ballads
> Traditionally Sung in New England".  I am interested in acquiring the other
> volumes, and if anyone on this list has perhaps any extra copies in their
> collection that they'd consider parting with, please do contact me offlist
> at:  [unmask]
> Thank you!
> LisaYou can get vols 1 and 2, or the whole set from www.bookfinder.comBruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bruce Olson wrote:
>> PS: I've filled in more gaps in the mode relationship tree (it's
> starting to look a bit like that with a lot of ivy connecting branches),
> but these I'll add in to the file GREEKMOD.TXT on my website, and not
> clutter up the list with them. I would plot it on a graph if I could
> figure out how. My first two tries quickly came to grief. I've now
> gotten almost all of the minorish (flatted 3rd) non-'Greek' based modes
> attached to one of rather few branches now.
>>
> Bruce Olson
>I shouldn't have used the 'minorish' above. That gets meaningless above
8 or 9 notes. I justed started at 'minorish' in connecting commonly
found modes into a chain.I don't think I'm going to try to do a graphical display of the
results of my foray into tunes modes. After a day fiddling with
pencil and paper and losing track of what I had covered and
hadn't covered, I finally wrote a subroutine for one of my
computer progams that did the whole thing in about 3 seconds.
For the 181 modes in my file COMBCODE3.TXT there are 422
(observed) n+1 note modes that can be gotten by adding a single
note to some (observed) n note mode. There are also several
isolated modes, but whether they are real or results of my coding
errors remains to be seen.I don't have any graphics programs that will handle data of this
type, and that's more connections than I would want to do one at
a time in a CAD program, which would have to give something like
a multi-layered flow chart, with many connections between layers.
Not too bad if you could see it in 3-D, but unintelligible in
2-D.Why are adjacent modes related by a cyclic permutation of some
reference semitone sequence? That's easy; the 'Greek' modes are
cyclic. Start with lydian, flatten the 4th to get ionian, then
flatten the 7th to get mixolydian, then flatten the 3rd to get
dorian, then flatten the 6th to get aeolian, then flatten the 2nd
to get phrygian, then flatten then 5th to get locrian, then
flatten the 1st and we're back to lydian. (Locrian might be called
lydian with the wrong keynote.)Some statistics for 'Greek' based modes from file COMBCOD.3.TXTmode  mode# % of n-note tunes                 notes=4, total tunes = 9
a-2,6&7  82    11.1(one tune)                 notes=5, total tunes = 264
pi1     330    38.5
pi2     338     5.0
pi3     594    13.4
pi4     596    13.4
               70.3% 'Greek'                 notes=6, total tunes = 1514
f/c    1354    23.6
c/g     346    27.7
g/d     850     6.6
d/a     598    18.6
a/e     724     5.0
               81.5% 'Greek'                 notes=7, total tunes = 3360
f      1386     0.8
c      1370    60.6
g       858     9.8
d       854     9.0
a       726    12.0
b       693     0.0
               92.2% 'Greek'                 notes=8, total tunes = 1161
f+c    1402    12.2
c+g    1882    45.4
g+d     862     4.0
d+a     982     2.5
a+e     727     0.3
e+b     757     0.1
               64.3% 'Greek'                 notes=9, total tunes = 2201
f+c+g  1914    15.9
c+g+d  1886     5.0
g+d+a   990     2.3
d+a+e   983     0.5
a+e+b   759     0.5
               24.2% 'Greek'                notes=10, total tunes = 38
f+c+g+d  1918   7.9
c+g+d+a  2014  21.1
g+d+a+e   991   2.6 (one tune)
d+a+e+b  1015   2.6  "
               34.2% 'Greek'1 11-note mode (with 4 tunes) and 1 12-note tune are also 'Greek'
so here 'Greek' is 100%Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my website <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

I came across this article and found it fascinating (and bittersweet also)....
http://www2.bostonherald.com/entertainment/music/koss04112002.htm-Lisa Johnson

Lisa:It is sad that the Cohen brothers did not in some way acknowledge the
Kossoy sisters for introducing him to "I'll Fly Away."  On the other hand,
the ladies got the song from a Carter Family record.EdOn Sat, 21 Sep 2002, Lisa - S. H. wrote:> I came across this article and found it fascinating (and bittersweet also)....
> http://www2.bostonherald.com/entertainment/music/koss04112002.htm
>
> -Lisa Johnson
>

The problem is that the Cohen Brothers used the Kossoy sister's recording; noty the
Carter Family's.  The other problem is that when the Kossoy sisters recorded the
song, they were minors, and their family signed a contract waiving any rights. Oh
well, who woulda thunk it would ever be worth real money.dick greenhaus.Ed Cray wrote:> Lisa:
>
> It is sad that the Cohen brothers did not in some way acknowledge the
> Kossoy sisters for introducing him to "I'll Fly Away."  On the other hand,
> the ladies got the song from a Carter Family record.
>
> Ed
>
> On Sat, 21 Sep 2002, Lisa - S. H. wrote:
>
> > I came across this article and found it fascinating (and bittersweet also)....
> > http://www2.bostonherald.com/entertainment/music/koss04112002.htm
> >
> > -Lisa Johnson
> >

Hi -
  I am unable to access the article using the link provided, however if I use www.
rather than www2. I get there OK.
  Any techies out there who can explain??  Thanks!
(I'm on Windows 95 and Netscape Communicator 4.73)
Tom Stern."Lisa - S. H." wrote:> I came across this article and found it fascinating (and bittersweet also)....
> http://www2.bostonherald.com/entertainment/music/koss04112002.htm
>
> -Lisa Johnson