Dear all,Benjamin Bowmaneer, the Jolly Herring and the Derby Ram must all qualify
as songs of impossibilities. The latter two are also songs about the
bountiful animal. Perhaps this might start a new string?Andy

Thank you, Jamie.All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: "James Moreira" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:26 AM
Subject: Scottish Broadsides> A friend Scotland has been working on a web site devoted to Glasgow
broadsides. It's particularly good in terms of the support information it
offers, including a transcript of an autobiography of a street seller.  Well
worth a look.
>
> The URL is
> http://www.cc.gla.ac.uk/courses/scottish/ballads/index.htm
>
> Cheers
> Jamie
>

Andy Rouse wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Benjamin Bowmaneer, the Jolly Herring and the Derby Ram must all qualify
> as songs of impossibilities. The latter two are also songs about the
> bountiful animal. Perhaps this might start a new string?
>
> AndyRed/Jolly Herring or Herring Song and Derby Ram have already been cited."Benjamin Bowmaneer" (Roud #1514) is a good addition to the list
of impossibles. It's a comic inversion of the old maxim 'A Taylor
is no man/ It takes nine taylors to make a man'. They were held
to be so cowardly and weak that, in a fight, they were a match
only for a louse. Here are two pieces from the 16th century
Bannatyne MS as illustration.The sowtar Inveyand aganis the telteor Sayis
Quhen I come by yone telyeoris stall
I saw a Lowiss ceripand vp his wall
snop q[uo] the telyeor, snap q[uo] the sheiris
Cokkis bownis q[uo] the lowiss, I haif lost myne Eiris       Question [Riddle]
Betuix twa foxis / a crawing cok
Betuix twa freiris / a maid in hir smok
Betuix twa cattis / A Mowiss
Betuix twa telyeoris / A Lowiss
schaw me gud ser not as a stranger
quhilk of thais four is grittest in denger.       Anser
ffoxis ar fell At crawing cokkis
ffreiris are ferss At maidis in thair smokkis
Cattis ar cawtelus in taking of myss
Telyeoris ar tyrranis in kelling of Lyis
..............."The Tailor and Louse" (Roud #16577. I've heard it sung as mouse
instead of louse), e.g., #129 in Reeves, 'The Everlasting Circle'
is another song of impossibles, a comic battle between the
principals. [For the antecedents of this see ZN2168, 2570 and
2449 in my broadside ballad index.]A curiosity is "The Proud Tailor", #52 in R. Palmer's 'Everyman's
Book of British Ballads', which is identified with "The Tailor
and the Louse", but the 1st verse is definitely from "Benjamin
Bowmaneer".Missing from my previous list of impossibles was also "As I set
off to Turkey" (Roud #1023), #4 in Reeves, 'The Everlasting
Circle', and the American "Fod" (Roud #431).If we add talking birds and animals to our list of marvelous
animals we can add "Leather-winged Bat" (Roud #747. broadsides-
The Birds Harmony/Woody Choristers), "Carrion Crow" (Roud #891),
"Two Ravens", "Birds Noats on May- day last" (broadside ballad), and
others.There are several songs quite similar to ones of impossibilities,
but the events are not quite impossible, just highly improbable,
e.g., "Jolly Old Hawk (Roud #1048)/ 12 Days of Christmas" (Roud
#68), "Froggy went a courting", "Bryan O'Lynn" (Roud #294), and
"The cat came back" (Roud #5063. in Levy sheet music collection).
Should we include these?Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

Excellent double CD just issued, called FAR IN THE MOUNTAINS Vols.1 & 2, of
the recordings made by Mike Yates in the Appalachians 1979-1983. Issued by
Musical Traditions. Website www.mustrad.org.uk
Steve Roud
--
Message sent with Supanet E-mail

Steve:Well, if we can send Carpenter and Lomax to the UK, you guys can send
Yates to the US.Thanks for the heads-up.EdOn Wed, 1 May 2002 [unmask] wrote:> Excellent double CD just issued, called FAR IN THE MOUNTAINS Vols.1 & 2, of
> the recordings made by Mike Yates in the Appalachians 1979-1983. Issued by
> Musical Traditions. Website www.mustrad.org.uk
> Steve Roud
> --
> Message sent with Supanet E-mail
>

For any US types that are interested, it will be carried by CAMSCO Music
([unmask]), as are all of the other excellent (and excellently
documented) CDs that Musical Traditions has produced.dick greenhaus[unmask] wrote:> Excellent double CD just issued, called FAR IN THE MOUNTAINS Vols.1 & 2, of
> the recordings made by Mike Yates in the Appalachians 1979-1983. Issued by
> Musical Traditions. Website www.mustrad.org.uk
> Steve Roud
> --
> Message sent with Supanet E-mail

Bruce Olson wrote:> A curiosity is "The Proud Tailor", #52 in R. Palmer's 'Everyman's
> Book of British Ballads', which is identified with "The Tailor
> and the Louse", but the 1st verse is definitely from "Benjamin
> Bowmaneer".
>Sorry, I didn't read Roy Palmer's note carefully. He says the song is
very close to "The Tailor and the Louse", but says there is one other
version of "The proud Tailor". He does not cite it by name, but in the
last note at the end he indirectly cites "Benjamin Bowmaneer" by the
"castors away" in the interlaced chorus.Palmer's "Proud Tailor" has it as a louse that the tailor fought,
although it's a flea in "Benjamin Bowmaneer".Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
Bruce Olson, writes:> There are several songs quite similar to ones of impossibilities,
> but the events are not quite impossible, just highly improbable,
> e.g., "Jolly Old Hawk (Roud #1048)/ 12 Days of Christmas" (Roud
> #68), "Froggy went a courting",[...]I have sometimes suspected that "Froggy went a courting" was a highly
realistic portrayal of the prospects for a mixed marriage in the 16th
century.  %^)
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  For axolotls & humans growing up is a desperate remedy.  :||

Joe et al:I have long suspected that this venerable ballad, which should have been
included in Professor Child's numbered canon, was originally a political
satire.  But of whom?  And why?  And to what end?EdOn Thu, 2 May 2002, Joe Fineman wrote:> Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
> Bruce Olson, writes:
>
> > There are several songs quite similar to ones of impossibilities,
> > but the events are not quite impossible, just highly improbable,
> > e.g., "Jolly Old Hawk (Roud #1048)/ 12 Days of Christmas" (Roud
> > #68), "Froggy went a courting",[...]
>
> I have sometimes suspected that "Froggy went a courting" was a highly
> realistic portrayal of the prospects for a mixed marriage in the 16th
> century.  %^)
> --
> ---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
> ||:  For axolotls & humans growing up is a desperate remedy.  :||
>

On 5/2/02, Ed Cray wrote:>Joe et al:
>
>I have long suspected that this venerable ballad, which should have been
>included in Professor Child's numbered canon, was originally a political
>satire.  But of whom?  And why?  And to what end?If you're going to think in those terms, the obvious suspicion is
that it's a Protestant married to a Catholic. Presumably the
Frog is the Protestant, and the Mouse is the Catholic, since
she has to ask the permission of Uncle Rat (the Pope).Look, I know this sounds crazy -- but I've seen too many of these
things.So -- hm. Mary Queen of Scots (and Bothwell)?Not sure I believe it, but if "Frog Went A-Courtin'" really
goes back to "The Complaint of Scotland," there aren't many
other choices. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> On 5/2/02, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> >Joe et al:
> >
> >I have long suspected that this venerable ballad, which should have been
> >included in Professor Child's numbered canon, was originally a political
> >satire.  But of whom?  And why?  And to what end?
>
> If you're going to think in those terms, the obvious suspicion is
> that it's a Protestant married to a Catholic. Presumably the
> Frog is the Protestant, and the Mouse is the Catholic, since
> she has to ask the permission of Uncle Rat (the Pope).
>
> Look, I know this sounds crazy -- but I've seen too many of these
> things.
>
> So -- hm. Mary Queen of Scots (and Bothwell)?
>
> Not sure I believe it, but if "Frog Went A-Courtin'" really
> goes back to "The Complaint of Scotland," there aren't many
> other choices. :-)
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."'Frog' has long been an English slang term for a Frenchman, and
in some quarters there's been a long held theory that the song is
a parody of the courtship of Queen Elizabeth I by Francis of
Alencon.It seems that the majority of (past) folklorists, and some other
critical opinion, take the mention of a song, "The frog cam to
the myl dur" in 'The Complaynt of Scotland', 1549, as evidence of
an earlier version. Not all have accepted this identification.
The Opies' in ODNR do not mention the song title in 'The Complaynt of
Scotland' in their capsule history of the song.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

> The earliest version of this that I have come accross is the reference
> in the stationers' register to the Ballad printed by E White in 1580 -
> 'A moste strange wedding of the ffrog and the mowse' which beings 'The
> frog would a woing ride' like the song in melismata, 1611.  Does anyone
> know of any earlier sources?The story is in Henryson's Aesop of a hundred years earlier ("The
Taill of the Paddok and the Mous"), with the explanation in its
attached "Moralitas".  The mouse is the human soul and the frog is
the body, which in Henryson's story tries to drag the soul down
into the river of earthly life and drown it, until a hawk (Death)
swoops down and carries both of them off.  It may be a Neoplatonic
parable.I wrote a longer article about this in uk.music.folk a few months ago.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music

At 9:13 PM -0500 5/2/02, Robert B. Waltz wrote:>On 5/2/02, Ed Cray wrote:
>
>>Joe et al:
>>
>>I have long suspected that this venerable ballad, which should have been
>>included in Professor Child's numbered canon, was originally a political
>>satire.  But of whom?  And why?  And to what end?
>
>If you're going to think in those terms, the obvious suspicion is
>that it's a Protestant married to a Catholic. Presumably the
>Frog is the Protestant, and the Mouse is the Catholic, since
>she has to ask the permission of Uncle Rat (the Pope).
>
>Look, I know this sounds crazy -- but I've seen too many of these
>things.
>
>So -- hm. Mary Queen of Scots (and Bothwell)?
>
>Not sure I believe it, but if "Frog Went A-Courtin'" really
>goes back to "The Complaint of Scotland," there aren't many
>other choices. :-)At a lecture/performance at the Great Smoky Mountains Wildflower
Pilgrimage recently, Ted Olson (ETSU) associated the frog with the
French  (Normans) and the mouse with whoever lived in England before
the Norman conquest (Saxons? Celts? Romans? whatever - shows you how
much history I know).  The Normans (frog) picked off and married all
the attractive young native women (mice).
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 5/3/02, John Garst wrote:>At 9:13 PM -0500 5/2/02, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
>>On 5/2/02, Ed Cray wrote:
>>
>>>Joe et al:
>>>
>>>I have long suspected that this venerable ballad, which should have been
>>>included in Professor Child's numbered canon, was originally a political
>>>satire.  But of whom?  And why?  And to what end?
>>
>>If you're going to think in those terms, the obvious suspicion is
>>that it's a Protestant married to a Catholic. Presumably the
>>Frog is the Protestant, and the Mouse is the Catholic, since
>>she has to ask the permission of Uncle Rat (the Pope).
>>
>>Look, I know this sounds crazy -- but I've seen too many of these
>>things.
>>
>>So -- hm. Mary Queen of Scots (and Bothwell)?
>>
>>Not sure I believe it, but if "Frog Went A-Courtin'" really
>>goes back to "The Complaint of Scotland," there aren't many
>>other choices. :-)
>
>At a lecture/performance at the Great Smoky Mountains Wildflower
>Pilgrimage recently, Ted Olson (ETSU) associated the frog with the
>French  (Normans) and the mouse with whoever lived in England before
>the Norman conquest (Saxons? Celts? Romans? whatever - shows you how
>much history I know).  The Normans (frog) picked off and married all
>the attractive young native women (mice).The pre-Norman inhabitants of England were Angles, Saxons, and
Jutes, ruled by the (West) Saxon dynasty. So it's proper to say
either "Anglo-Saxons" (for the people; the name "Old English"
is now preferred for their language) or Saxons.But this strikes me as one of those absolutely insane theories
scholars dream up. What possible evidence is there for this?
Just the fact that the French are "frogs"?By that argument, we could ring in all sorts of things. Edward III's
claim to the monarch of France. The French invasion in the time of
John and Henry III. If we're allowed any interaction between
France and England, I'm sure I can find more.In fact -- sure! It's a ripoff on the Lear legend! That's
Cordelia in Lower Animal's clothing.... :-)
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

I am looking for a date for a song called The Ballad Singer's Summons to
her Lover:The Ballad Singer’s Summons to her LoverSweetest of the nightly choir
Vocal partner Roger rise
Gingling Halfpence loud require
to bung our Eyes
Then together in all Weather
As true Turtles of a feather
Alleys shall resound our SongSoft Duettos gently trilling
Shall fix those wand’ring Damsels feet
Who in quest of Gull and Shilling
Hunt o’er each street
Musick sending
Crouds attending
In their fobs (sobs?) our Hands descending,
Mingles Profit with our PraiseI got as a single xerox copy with no date, and am having problems
finding out where it's from.Any help gratefully received.By the way, the May Trees are up again in the village - this looks like
a custom that is successfully keeping going.
The idea is that the lads of village go out on April 30 to the woods and
find long, straight, thinnish trees. These they strip of all but the
highest branches, which they adorn with colourful strips of paper (the
village shop was full of crepe last week!) and in some places bottles
with wine in. Under cover of dark they dig holes to accommodate the
trees outside the homes of the eligible maidens and then set the trees
in them, so that when the lassies awaken they espy the symbol of
intention (and attention) of - hopefully - the young man of their
choice.The whole thing is supposed to happen in silence - if they wanmt a drink
they have to take it themselves. There is no inviting into the house
afterwards... even if they can be heard!One change that is evident is that younger girls' fathers raise the
trees of their own daughters. There is one just round the corner with
five trees for one little girl. I haven't done my full walk round the
village yet - I'll let you know the count for 2002!Regards,Andy

On Sat, May 04, 2002 at 05:29:28PM +0200, Andy Rouse wrote:> I am looking for a date for a song called The Ballad Singer's Summons to
> her Lover:        That I can't help you with.  But I have some comments about the
contents.  (Note that where I would expect to find an "'", on my system
I see a '?' in the pager while reading, and in the editor (now), I see
"\222", which suggests that it was using something from the extension to
the ASCII characterset -- something which is not fully portable.  It
will probably turn back into what you thought you typed while viewing it
in your system.  Not sure whether you did this in a word processor, or
whether you went through some keyboard manipulation to get a prettier
character, but whatever -- it is not universally portable to all
systems.  It falls in the "control characters (non-printing) with parity
bit set on a unix system, so whatever it is will not display.> The Ballad Singer’s Summons to her Lover        [ ... ]> Soft Duettos gently trilling
> Shall fix those wand’ring Damsels feet
> Who in quest of Gull and Shilling
> Hunt o’er each street        This suggests to me that they (the damsels) are practicing some
form of street scam.> Musick sending
> Crouds attending
> In their fobs (sobs?) our Hands descending,
> Mingles Profit with our Praise        And this one suggests pickpockets.  I think that the "fobs"
interpretation is correct -- think of "watch fobs", and the pockets in
which they normally reside.  And it may have once had a more general
meaning of "pocket".  (I'm too lazy to take down my Compact Edition of
the OED -- it is too much of a pain to juggle keyboard and book in the
same lap, and with the other two hands manipulate the magnifying glass
and the mouse. :-)        It is known that pickpockets like to work in the presence of
street entertainment, where the mark is more likely to be distracted,
and the singing may seem to serve this same purpose here.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

It may stating the obvious (though I would have expected both Andy to have
commented) but most of the lines of this are the titles of songs. Thus you
have much more dtaing data than the single text. It is appropriate that the
ballad singer should address his/her lover in such a way.John Moulden

Automatic digest processor <[unmask]>, in the person of
Bruce Olson, writes:> 'Frog' has long been an English slang term for a Frenchman, and in
> some quarters there's been a long held theory that the song is a
> parody of the courtship of Queen Elizabeth I by Francis of Alencon.According to the OED, "frog" or "froggy" for Frenchman is 19th-
century slang, "from their reputed habit of eating frogs".  The
earliest citation, in which a Frenchwoman in a mudpuddle is addressed
as "Mrs Frog", is dated 1778.  All the others are considerably later.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Q.  How many guacas are there in a guacamole?  :||
||:  A.  Avocadro's number.                         :||

Hi!        Here I am again! The list has been quiet so I guess everyone is
busy. Here are a few items that may be of interest.        864385475 - Come A Singing - Canadian Folk Songs, 1947;
(ends May-07-02 11:38:15 PDT)
        864388389 - "Folk Songs Of Old Quebec" by Marius Barbeau, 1947?;
(ends May-07-02 11:45:48 PDT)
        1533591952 - THE BALLAD TREE, Evelyn Kendrick Wells, 1950; (ends
May-07-02 12:42:39)
        866330212 - The Leadbelly Songbook: The Ballads, Blues and
Folksongs of Huddie Ledbetter Edited by Moses Asch and Alan Lomax, 1962
(ends May-08-02 17:25:38 PDT)
        1534535824 - The Viking Book of Folk Ballads of the English Speaking
World Edited by Albert B. Friedman, 1956 (ends May-08-02 18:10:54 PDT)
        1533913940 - ADIRONDACK VOICES - WOODSMEN AND WOODS LORE. by
Robert D. Bethke, 1981 (ends May-08-02 18:44:23 PDT)
        1099425634 - ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS, 1904 (Sargent
& Kittredge edition of Child (ends May-08-02 20:18:01 PDT)
        1534796795 - 1932 edition of the above book (ends May-09-02
21:26:59 PDT)
        1534641515 - Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians. Jean
Ritchie, 1997 (ends May-09-02 09:31:44 PDT)
        867529583 - Seven Kentucky Mountain Songs;as sung by: Marion
Kerby and John J. Niles published by Schirmer (ends May-09-02 16:00:16 PDT)
        865515843 - "Gaelic Songs In Nova Scotia," by Helen Creighton
and Calum MacLeod, 1979 reprint (ends May-09-02 19:03:59 PDT)
        1534838495 The Ballad Literature and Popular Music of the Olden
Time by Chappell, 2 volumes, 1884 (ends May-10-02 08:03:55 PDT) This
appears to be a re-listing of an earlier auction. The seller has reduced
the opening price some.
        865818227 - 900 Miles -The Ballads,Blues and Folksongs of Cisco
Houston (ends May-10-02 14:34:29 PDT)
        1535027905 - NEBRASKA Folk Lore by Pound, 1958 (ends May-11-02
 09:18:46 PDT)
        867931527 - "Folk Songs of the Catskills," by Cazden, Haufrecht,
Studer with a Foreword by Pete Seeger, 1982 This is in an auction with
some issues of Sing Out! and a copy of Botsford Collection of Folk Songs
(ends May-12-02 15:15:31 PDT)        I think that is enough for tonight. I'll make a separate posting
for the few songsters currently up for bids. There are a few other odd
items like volume 1 of an encyclopedia of folklore with no indication of
where the remaining volumes are.                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Balladeers --I need some help here. Some of you may know the song
"The Heights of Alma" (Laws J10). A typical version beginsSeptember last, on the eighteenth day
We landed safe on the big Cri-may
In spite of all the foam and spray
Upon the heights of Alma.That night we lay on the cold, cold ground
No tent nor shelter to be found
But with the rains were almost drowned
All upon the heights of Alma.Next morning the scorching sun did rise
Beneath the eastern cloudy skies;
Noble chief Lord Raglan cries,
"We'll get our work at Alma."The battle of Alma was fought in 1854, so that gives an obvious
earliest *possible* date for the song.BUTObserve this item from Cox (#66, pp. 266-267)Thee southers boys may longer lie,
On the first and fourth of sweet July,
Our General Beauregard resound,
  For his southern boys at Richmond.That night we laid on _the_ cold ground,
No tents nor shelter could be found,
With rain and hail was nearly drowned
  To cheer our hearts at Richmond.Next morn the burning sun did rise
Beneath the cloudy eastern skies;
Our general viewed the forts and cried,
  We'll have hot work at Richmond.The parallels continue through the songs. This is a very
curious piece, hard to expain historically (Beauregard
never commanded the Richmond defences, and while a northerner
might not have known that, a Southron surely would), but
a date in the 1860s seems implied -- very early for a
song based on a Crimean war piece!But just this morning I met a piece in Belden (p. 300)
beginningSeptember last, on the seventh day,
I geared my team to start away....The rest of the song has nothing to do with the other
two (it's a song about a trip across the Appalachians),
but it looks like another reminiscence. And *it*, by
internal dating, probably dates to before 1840!So: The clear indication is that the "Alma" form
existed before the Battle of Alma, and that this
"proto-Alma" song inspired the others.Has anyone a suggestion for what might be the "proto-Alma?"
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Bob,
Not that the words are similar, except for the last line of each verse, but
the rhythm is identical and it may provide you with a tune to which "Alma"
was set. It relates to a ferocious Scottish battle during the 17th century
British civil war: The Haughs o' Cromdale: Greig-Duncan vol. 1 no. 113, pp.
314-316.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Simon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: A Prototype for "The Heights of Alma"?> Balladeers --
>
> I need some help here. Some of you may know the song
> "The Heights of Alma" (Laws J10). A typical version begins
>
> September last, on the eighteenth day
> We landed safe on the big Cri-may
> In spite of all the foam and spray
> Upon the heights of Alma.
>
> That night we lay on the cold, cold ground
> No tent nor shelter to be found
> But with the rains were almost drowned
> All upon the heights of Alma.
>
> Next morning the scorching sun did rise
> Beneath the eastern cloudy skies;
> Noble chief Lord Raglan cries,
> "We'll get our work at Alma."
>
> The battle of Alma was fought in 1854, so that gives an obvious
> earliest *possible* date for the song.
>
> BUT
>
> Observe this item from Cox (#66, pp. 266-267)
>
> Thee southers boys may longer lie,
> On the first and fourth of sweet July,
> Our General Beauregard resound,
>   For his southern boys at Richmond.
>
> That night we laid on _the_ cold ground,
> No tents nor shelter could be found,
> With rain and hail was nearly drowned
>   To cheer our hearts at Richmond.
>
> Next morn the burning sun did rise
> Beneath the cloudy eastern skies;
> Our general viewed the forts and cried,
>   We'll have hot work at Richmond.
>
> The parallels continue through the songs. This is a very
> curious piece, hard to expain historically (Beauregard
> never commanded the Richmond defences, and while a northerner
> might not have known that, a Southron surely would), but
> a date in the 1860s seems implied -- very early for a
> song based on a Crimean war piece!
>
> But just this morning I met a piece in Belden (p. 300)
> beginning
>
> September last, on the seventh day,
> I geared my team to start away....
>
> The rest of the song has nothing to do with the other
> two (it's a song about a trip across the Appalachians),
> but it looks like another reminiscence. And *it*, by
> internal dating, probably dates to before 1840!
>
> So: The clear indication is that the "Alma" form
> existed before the Battle of Alma, and that this
> "proto-Alma" song inspired the others.
>
> Has anyone a suggestion for what might be the "proto-Alma?"
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 1078 Colne Street
> Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
> 651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>

Bob:While there MAY be an ur-type of "The Heights of Alma," as you suggest, I
am not sure the evidence is clear.Consider: your third song (from Belden) may date from the 1840s as you
suggest, but the first line -- something of a ballad cliche (?) -- could
be a later borrowing from an "Alma" song.I would guess that the answer to an ur-type lies in some broadside
collection somewhere.EdOn Mon, 6 May 2002, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> Balladeers --
>
> I need some help here. Some of you may know the song
> "The Heights of Alma" (Laws J10). A typical version begins
>
> September last, on the eighteenth day
> We landed safe on the big Cri-may
> In spite of all the foam and spray
> Upon the heights of Alma.
>
> That night we lay on the cold, cold ground
> No tent nor shelter to be found
> But with the rains were almost drowned
> All upon the heights of Alma.
>
> Next morning the scorching sun did rise
> Beneath the eastern cloudy skies;
> Noble chief Lord Raglan cries,
> "We'll get our work at Alma."
>
> The battle of Alma was fought in 1854, so that gives an obvious
> earliest *possible* date for the song.
>
> BUT
>
> Observe this item from Cox (#66, pp. 266-267)
>
> Thee southers boys may longer lie,
> On the first and fourth of sweet July,
> Our General Beauregard resound,
>   For his southern boys at Richmond.
>
> That night we laid on _the_ cold ground,
> No tents nor shelter could be found,
> With rain and hail was nearly drowned
>   To cheer our hearts at Richmond.
>
> Next morn the burning sun did rise
> Beneath the cloudy eastern skies;
> Our general viewed the forts and cried,
>   We'll have hot work at Richmond.
>
> The parallels continue through the songs. This is a very
> curious piece, hard to expain historically (Beauregard
> never commanded the Richmond defences, and while a northerner
> might not have known that, a Southron surely would), but
> a date in the 1860s seems implied -- very early for a
> song based on a Crimean war piece!
>
> But just this morning I met a piece in Belden (p. 300)
> beginning
>
> September last, on the seventh day,
> I geared my team to start away....
>
> The rest of the song has nothing to do with the other
> two (it's a song about a trip across the Appalachians),
> but it looks like another reminiscence. And *it*, by
> internal dating, probably dates to before 1840!
>
> So: The clear indication is that the "Alma" form
> existed before the Battle of Alma, and that this
> "proto-Alma" song inspired the others.
>
> Has anyone a suggestion for what might be the "proto-Alma?"
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 1078 Colne Street
> Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
> 651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>

On 5/6/02, Simon Furey wrote:>Bob,
>Not that the words are similar, except for the last line of each verse, but
>the rhythm is identical and it may provide you with a tune to which "Alma"
>was set. It relates to a ferocious Scottish battle during the 17th century
>British civil war: The Haughs o' Cromdale: Greig-Duncan vol. 1 no. 113, pp.
>314-316.Tunes aren't even vaguely similar, at least as I learned them.
No common words, either. If there *is* an "ur-Alma," I suspect
that isn't it. But I don't know.Has anyone heard a recording of "Alma"? My only version is
from a local group called "Walking on Air"; I don't much
trust them. They themselves called it (I'm not making this
up) Scottish calypso. There is a tune in Ford, but the
lyrics are very different, so that the tune doesn't fit.
Ditto the version in Sam Henry.This of course raises the possibility that "Heights of Alma"
(at least this version) is actually derived from the Cox
piece about Richmond. But the Cox song seems to occur only
there, and how would it get to Britain to affect the
British versions?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Phil Thomas of Vazncouver BC has the song in his collection from the singing
of Capt. Charles Cates (d. 1960), with a chorus:Tin-tin-inary all the day (x3)
Cheer up me boys for Alma.----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: A Prototype for "The Heights of Alma"?> On 5/6/02, Simon Furey wrote:
>
> >Bob,
> >Not that the words are similar, except for the last line of each verse,
but
> >the rhythm is identical and it may provide you with a tune to which
"Alma"
> >was set. It relates to a ferocious Scottish battle during the 17th
century
> >British civil war: The Haughs o' Cromdale: Greig-Duncan vol. 1 no. 113,
pp.
> >314-316.
>
> Tunes aren't even vaguely similar, at least as I learned them.
> No common words, either. If there *is* an "ur-Alma," I suspect
> that isn't it. But I don't know.
>
> Has anyone heard a recording of "Alma"? My only version is
> from a local group called "Walking on Air"; I don't much
> trust them. They themselves called it (I'm not making this
> up) Scottish calypso. There is a tune in Ford, but the
> lyrics are very different, so that the tune doesn't fit.
> Ditto the version in Sam Henry.
>
> This of course raises the possibility that "Heights of Alma"
> (at least this version) is actually derived from the Cox
> piece about Richmond. But the Cox song seems to occur only
> there, and how would it get to Britain to affect the
> British versions?
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."
>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 6 May 2002 11:47:46 -0500
From: Judy McCulloh <[unmask]>
Reply-To: Judy McCulloh <[unmask]>
To: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Subject: Fw: A New Hopkinson MSDear Ed,Could I trouble you to post this to ballad-l?  I tried just now but got a
rejected-posted message.  Thanks.JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL 61820-6903
phone: (217) 244 4681
email: [unmask]
www.press.uillinois.edu----- Original Message -----
From: "Judy McCulloh" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 11:39 AM
Subject: Fw: A New Hopkinson MS> FYI
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kate Van Winkle Keller" <[unmask]>
> To: "Sonneck Listserv" <[unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 12:20 PM
> Subject: A New Hopkinson MS
>
>
> > Dear friends,
> >
> > I received a call yesterday from David Stearns at the Philadelphia
> > Inquirer
> > concerning a group of manuscripts attributed to Francis Hopkinson
> > that will be auctioned by Freeman's on May 16. There are a number of
> > entirely unknown pieces of music and poems in these MSS and the auction
> > house is expecting a very large sum for the group. You can see the
> > description of the MSS and the contents at
> > www.freemansauction.com under "lot of the week" or search on google
> > for "Hopkinson manuscript". The Maine Auction Digest site has a press
> > release on it; the Freeman site has the contents.
> >
> > For us all, the authenticity of such an important group of MSS is
> > critical. Stearns
> > has talked with Gillian Anderson (who is presently in Italy) about the
> > "Temple of Minerva"
> > attribution. We have shared the picture on the website with uniform and
> > equestrian experts, and hope that an early American poetry expert will
> > weigh in soon. I'm now working on the tunes that I can make
> > out from the illustrations in the sale catalog to see what I can learn.
> >
> > There is a song in one of the MSS that is depicted in the sale catalog
> > for which I can read the music rather clearly. The tune sounds familiar
> > and I have made it into a graphic file attached, hoping that someone out
> > there may recognize it.  The song is called
> > "Old King George Shan't Sleep To=Night" and there is an annotation
> > underneath the music: "FH = I saw General Washington laugh heartily when
> > this was sung!"  The lyrics are the same as the title, sung through 6
> > times, then "The sun goes up. The moon goes down, King George shan't
> > sleep."
> >
> > Please take a look at the tune and let me know what you think. Remember,
> > the claim by the auction house is that this is new, previously unknown
> > music written by Francis Hopkinson (1737-1791), signer of the
> > Declaration of Independence and one of America's earliest native-born
> > composers of secular music. It's an important issue.
> >
> > Kate Keller
> > [unmask]
> >
>

(A test of the automatic membership renewal-procedure. Sorry if any
inconveniece.)Cheers / Michael Bell

Message received.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Bell Michael
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 2:19 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: This is purely a test: Delete(A test of the automatic membership renewal-procedure. Sorry if any
inconveniece.)Cheers / Michael Bell

I guess I should make something clear: Folks, I *don't*
need more versions of "Heights of Alma." There are plenty
cited in Laws.What I *don't* have is evidence of songs from before 1854
with all those key lyrics I cited.The situation is this: We have a song probably written
c. 1854 in England with these lyrics, and another written
c. 1862 in the U. S. with these lyrics. The two songs
cited *cannot* be older than these dates, but are unlikely
to be much newer. So logic says that they have a common
ancestor.The question is, can we locate the ancestor?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Jon:Can you tell us more of the Cates collection?  Is it in print?EdOn Mon, 6 May 2002, Jon Bartlett wrote:> Phil Thomas of Vazncouver BC has the song in his collection from the singing
> of Capt. Charles Cates (d. 1960), with a chorus:
>
> Tin-tin-inary all the day (x3)
> Cheer up me boys for Alma.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:07 AM
> Subject: Re: A Prototype for "The Heights of Alma"?
>
>
> > On 5/6/02, Simon Furey wrote:
> >
> > >Bob,
> > >Not that the words are similar, except for the last line of each verse,
> but
> > >the rhythm is identical and it may provide you with a tune to which
> "Alma"
> > >was set. It relates to a ferocious Scottish battle during the 17th
> century
> > >British civil war: The Haughs o' Cromdale: Greig-Duncan vol. 1 no. 113,
> pp.
> > >314-316.
> >
> > Tunes aren't even vaguely similar, at least as I learned them.
> > No common words, either. If there *is* an "ur-Alma," I suspect
> > that isn't it. But I don't know.
> >
> > Has anyone heard a recording of "Alma"? My only version is
> > from a local group called "Walking on Air"; I don't much
> > trust them. They themselves called it (I'm not making this
> > up) Scottish calypso. There is a tune in Ford, but the
> > lyrics are very different, so that the tune doesn't fit.
> > Ditto the version in Sam Henry.
> >
> > This of course raises the possibility that "Heights of Alma"
> > (at least this version) is actually derived from the Cox
> > piece about Richmond. But the Cox song seems to occur only
> > there, and how would it get to Britain to affect the
> > British versions?
> >
> > --
> > Bob Waltz
> > [unmask]
> >
> > "The one thing we learn from history --
> >    is that no one ever learns from history."
> >
>

Ed Cray wrote:
>
> Jon:
>
> Can you tell us more of the Cates collection?  Is it in print?
>
> Ed
>Edith Fowke collected many songs and ballads from Cates. See Steve
Roud's folksong index. Search on PERFORMER = Cates.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

The Phil Thomas Collection is in the Aural History Archives in Victoria.  It
consists of c. 500 items collected in BC from c. 1954-1975.  There is an
overview of the collection in the Canadian Folk Music Society Journal, Vol 4
1976 (on the web at http://cjtm.icaap.org/content/4/v4art7.html). Some of
the material is in print in Thomas' "Songs of the Pacific Northwest" (North
Vancouver: Hancock Publishers, 1979) where the orally collected material is
augmented by printed sources, some "to be sung to the tune of...", others
with tunes provided by Thomas. Another source is Thomas' LP, "Where the
Fraser River Flows" which presents upwards of two dozen songs, sung by
Thomas and others.  Some of the material appears on my "The Green Fields of
Canada" and much use was made of the collection in the creation of "Songs
and Stories of Canada", a 16-part radio series made for schools broadcasts
in BC, Manitoba and Alberta, c. 1980.  The Cates material is of some thirty
items, mostly song but with some reminiscences, mostly passed down from his
father. Barbara Cass Beggs has printed at least one of Cates' songs in
"Canadian Folk Songs for the Young" and there are others in Edith Fowke's
books, too.
Jon Bartlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: A Prototype for "The Heights of Alma"?> Jon:
>
> Can you tell us more of the Cates collection?  Is it in print?
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Mon, 6 May 2002, Jon Bartlett wrote:
>
> > Phil Thomas of Vazncouver BC has the song in his collection from the
singing
> > of Capt. Charles Cates (d. 1960), with a chorus:
> >
> > Tin-tin-inary all the day (x3)
> > Cheer up me boys for Alma.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> > To: <[unmask]>
> > Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 10:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: A Prototype for "The Heights of Alma"?
> >
> >
> > > On 5/6/02, Simon Furey wrote:
> > >
> > > >Bob,
> > > >Not that the words are similar, except for the last line of each
verse,
> > but
> > > >the rhythm is identical and it may provide you with a tune to which
> > "Alma"
> > > >was set. It relates to a ferocious Scottish battle during the 17th
> > century
> > > >British civil war: The Haughs o' Cromdale: Greig-Duncan vol. 1 no.
113,
> > pp.
> > > >314-316.
> > >
> > > Tunes aren't even vaguely similar, at least as I learned them.
> > > No common words, either. If there *is* an "ur-Alma," I suspect
> > > that isn't it. But I don't know.
> > >
> > > Has anyone heard a recording of "Alma"? My only version is
> > > from a local group called "Walking on Air"; I don't much
> > > trust them. They themselves called it (I'm not making this
> > > up) Scottish calypso. There is a tune in Ford, but the
> > > lyrics are very different, so that the tune doesn't fit.
> > > Ditto the version in Sam Henry.
> > >
> > > This of course raises the possibility that "Heights of Alma"
> > > (at least this version) is actually derived from the Cox
> > > piece about Richmond. But the Cox song seems to occur only
> > > there, and how would it get to Britain to affect the
> > > British versions?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Bob Waltz
> > > [unmask]
> > >
> > > "The one thing we learn from history --
> > >    is that no one ever learns from history."
> > >
> >
>

A tune called 'The Heights and Braes of Alma' is very commonly played as a
polka in Ireland. (My first home was called Alma House).Finbar Boyle----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 2:43 PM
Subject: A Prototype for "The Heights of Alma"?> Balladeers --
>
> I need some help here. Some of you may know the song
> "The Heights of Alma" (Laws J10). A typical version begins
>
> September last, on the eighteenth day
> We landed safe on the big Cri-may
> In spite of all the foam and spray
> Upon the heights of Alma.
>
> That night we lay on the cold, cold ground
> No tent nor shelter to be found
> But with the rains were almost drowned
> All upon the heights of Alma.
>
> Next morning the scorching sun did rise
> Beneath the eastern cloudy skies;
> Noble chief Lord Raglan cries,
> "We'll get our work at Alma."
>
> The battle of Alma was fought in 1854, so that gives an obvious
> earliest *possible* date for the song.
>
> BUT
>
> Observe this item from Cox (#66, pp. 266-267)
>
> Thee southers boys may longer lie,
> On the first and fourth of sweet July,
> Our General Beauregard resound,
>   For his southern boys at Richmond.
>
> That night we laid on _the_ cold ground,
> No tents nor shelter could be found,
> With rain and hail was nearly drowned
>   To cheer our hearts at Richmond.
>
> Next morn the burning sun did rise
> Beneath the cloudy eastern skies;
> Our general viewed the forts and cried,
>   We'll have hot work at Richmond.
>
> The parallels continue through the songs. This is a very
> curious piece, hard to expain historically (Beauregard
> never commanded the Richmond defences, and while a northerner
> might not have known that, a Southron surely would), but
> a date in the 1860s seems implied -- very early for a
> song based on a Crimean war piece!
>
> But just this morning I met a piece in Belden (p. 300)
> beginning
>
> September last, on the seventh day,
> I geared my team to start away....
>
> The rest of the song has nothing to do with the other
> two (it's a song about a trip across the Appalachians),
> but it looks like another reminiscence. And *it*, by
> internal dating, probably dates to before 1840!
>
> So: The clear indication is that the "Alma" form
> existed before the Battle of Alma, and that this
> "proto-Alma" song inspired the others.
>
> Has anyone a suggestion for what might be the "proto-Alma?"
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 1078 Colne Street
> Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
> 651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>

Hi!        I know that I promised this list a couple of days ago. :-( There
are only a two entries at the moment.        2100879819 - Merchant's Gargling Oil, Songster, 1882? (ends
May-12-02 20:39:19 PDT)
        2101313031 - 1876 Just From Tennessee Minstrel Songster (ends
May-17-02 11:24:41 PDT)        An addition or 2 to the earlier list, (these end on Monday,
5/12)
        869753015 - KERR'S CORNKISTERS BOTHY BALLADS, 1950
        1535329392 - Folklore of the Cotswolds by Briggs, 1974                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi folks:There's a song in the repertoire of the Wallin/Chandler family of Sodom, NC,
that Dillard Chandler called "Jesus Says Go". Here are the words he sang (on
the Folkways recording "End of an Old Song", rec. 1968):When I was a sinner the people would say
If you want to be converted you'd better pray
So trust in them that's found the Lord
For he has promised a sure rewardChorus:    Jesus says go -- I'll go with you
                Pray to the gospel and I'll preach with you
                Lord, if I go, tell me what to say
                For they won't believe on meWhen I started on my way to pray
I'll tell you what the spirit did say
Come unto me for I am a way
And I intend in trying to prayThe more I prayed, the worst I felt
But at last I thought my heart would melt
    Ch.Well my hands was tied, my feet was bound
The elements opened and the Lord come down
The voice I heard sounds so sweet
The love run out at the sole of my feet
    Ch.Well it's doubts may ride and troubles may roll
But God said he'd save your sin-sick soul
    Ch.Cas Wallin used to sing this too -- don't know if he ever recorded it, but I
heard him sing it in 1978; he said "the Holiness people sing this one a
whole lot". The liner notes to Chandler's LP note that the song is "absent
from books and recordings", but Mary Sands, one of Cecil Sharp's most
valuable sources, claimed to have written it.Indexing the Folkways recording "Music from the South, Vol 7: The Elder
Songsters", I find another version of the song, recorded in 1954 from the
African-American singer George Herod, near Scott Station, Alabama; his title
for it was "Lord, When I Was a Sinner":Lord, when I was a sinner I heard the people say
You ought to be converted you better had pray
I trusted in Him, found the Lord
He tells me, promises a sure rewardChorus:    O Jesus say, you go, I go with you
                Preach my gospel, an' I preach it
                O my Lord if I go, 'long
                Tell 'em what you say
                They will not believe in meI looked right behind me, o what did I see
Nothin' but Jesus, talking' to me
He was the one that seek'd to find
He  was the one turned the water to wine
    Ch.No information about this song at all in this LP's liner notes, other than
the recording date. The second verse is one that Cas Wallin also sang, but
Dillard Chandler didn't.Well, I think it's clear these are versions of the same song, but that
raises interesting questions. First, it cast doubt on Mary Sands as the
author; I think it unlikely that a song of hers would have worked its way to
George Herod in Alabama, across the color line (not impossible, of course,
but unlikely). So I think it's more probable that both the
Sands/Chandler/Wallin family and George Herod got the song from a prior
source. The quesiton is, what?Do any of you folks out there know of an earlier version than Mary Sands'
from 1916 or so, especially a printed one? Or other versions in the years
between Sands' and Herod's? Is this a relatively-common hymn that I'm
missing, having not been raised in church? Any information gratefully
accepted, with thanks in advance.Peace,
Paul

Hi folks:Someone was recently asking about the similarity between the title of Blind
Willie Johnson's "Dark was the Night, Cold was the Ground" with a line in
Mississippi John Hurt's "Frankie", and looking for possible antecedents.In 1954 John & Lovie Griffins recorded a fragment for Frederic Ramsey,
issued on the Folkways LP "Music from the South, Vol. 7: Elder Songsters 2":"Dark was the Night, and Cold the Ground" [spoken interjections in brackets]Dark was the night and cold the ground
On which my Lord was laid
His sweat like drops of blood ran down
In agony he prayedFather, remove this bitter cup [...wait a minute...]
If such they secret will [...that's all I know by heart...]In the liner notes, Ramsey says:"A slight variant is printed in Newman White's 'American Negro Folk Songs'
with the comment 'except for the grammar of line 3...it is identical with
stanza 1 of Thomas Haweis' (1732-1820) hymn included in several hymn-books
of the white churches from the early nineteenth century.' A second variant,
printed by White, has a fourth stanza from Dr. Watts' 'Am I a soldier of the
cross?' "So...there's a possible provenance for the title and the line. Anyone out
there have Newman White's book, or an old hymnal with Haweis's song in it?
Or any further history?Peace,
Paul

        You might wish to look at a recording by the MISSISSIPPI JUBILEE
SINGERS
[Chicago, c. May 1927] "Jesus Said If You Go I'll Go" issued on Paramount
12495 and reissued on Wayhi M 20.At 2:46 AM -0500 5/10/02, Paul Stamler wrote:
>Hi folks:
>
>There's a song in the repertoire of the Wallin/Chandler family of Sodom, NC,
>that Dillard Chandler called "Jesus Says Go". Here are the words he sang (on
>the Folkways recording "End of an Old Song", rec. 1968):
>
>When I was a sinner the people would say
>If you want to be converted you'd better pray
>So trust in them that's found the Lord
>For he has promised a sure reward
>
>Chorus:    Jesus says go -- I'll go with you
>                Pray to the gospel and I'll preach with you
>                Lord, if I go, tell me what to say
>                For they won't believe on me
>
>When I started on my way to pray
>I'll tell you what the spirit did say
>Come unto me for I am a way
>And I intend in trying to pray
>
>The more I prayed, the worst I felt
>But at last I thought my heart would melt
>    Ch.
>
>Well my hands was tied, my feet was bound
>The elements opened and the Lord come down
>The voice I heard sounds so sweet
>The love run out at the sole of my feet
>    Ch.
>
>Well it's doubts may ride and troubles may roll
>But God said he'd save your sin-sick soul
>    Ch.
>
>Cas Wallin used to sing this too -- don't know if he ever recorded it, but I
>heard him sing it in 1978; he said "the Holiness people sing this one a
>whole lot". The liner notes to Chandler's LP note that the song is "absent
>from books and recordings", but Mary Sands, one of Cecil Sharp's most
>valuable sources, claimed to have written it.
>
>Indexing the Folkways recording "Music from the South, Vol 7: The Elder
>Songsters", I find another version of the song, recorded in 1954 from the
>African-American singer George Herod, near Scott Station, Alabama; his title
>for it was "Lord, When I Was a Sinner":
>
>Lord, when I was a sinner I heard the people say
>You ought to be converted you better had pray
>I trusted in Him, found the Lord
>He tells me, promises a sure reward
>
>Chorus:    O Jesus say, you go, I go with you
>                Preach my gospel, an' I preach it
>                O my Lord if I go, 'long
>                Tell 'em what you say
>                They will not believe in me
>
>I looked right behind me, o what did I see
>Nothin' but Jesus, talking' to me
>He was the one that seek'd to find
>He  was the one turned the water to wine
>    Ch.
>
>No information about this song at all in this LP's liner notes, other than
>the recording date. The second verse is one that Cas Wallin also sang, but
>Dillard Chandler didn't.
>
>Well, I think it's clear these are versions of the same song, but that
>raises interesting questions. First, it cast doubt on Mary Sands as the
>author; I think it unlikely that a song of hers would have worked its way to
>George Herod in Alabama, across the color line (not impossible, of course,
>but unlikely). So I think it's more probable that both the
>Sands/Chandler/Wallin family and George Herod got the song from a prior
>source. The quesiton is, what?
>
>Do any of you folks out there know of an earlier version than Mary Sands'
>from 1916 or so, especially a printed one? Or other versions in the years
>between Sands' and Herod's? Is this a relatively-common hymn that I'm
>missing, having not been raised in church? Any information gratefully
>accepted, with thanks in advance.
>
>Peace,
>Paul

I used to spend hours, nay days, in the rare book department of the
National Library of Scotland, poring through thousands of broadsides in
scrapbooks. There was an almost unlimited supply of fascinating
material, and although the scrapbooks were catalogued, the individual
items were not. I've still got piles of notebooks of my own cataloguing
- all stored away for potential projects which never materialised.Anyway, I was talking to someone who works in the dept and he says
they're busy scanning lots of that material to be made available on the
web. Fantastic news, I think. He mentioned it might be an extension of
the SCRAN site, and huge project dedicated to Scots culture. I haven't
visited it for a while, but you used to be able to access it at
http://www.scran.ac.uk/I'll keep you informed if I hear any more news of this.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

Hi y'all-CAMSCO Music just received an initial delivery of this 2-CD set. A fine,
fine job of collecting, recording, documenting and packaging. $24 (+
$4.20 shipping and handling for up to $35 worth of merchandise)Far in the Mountains Vols 1 & 2  Musical Traditions CD321-2Volume One:
Pug Allen:
I Beano
2 Christmas Holiday
3 Cluck Old Hen
4 My Man Will Be Home Some Old Day
S Fire in the Mountains
Dan Tate:
6 Bugerboo
7 Cindy
8 Fish on a Hook/Walk Jawbone
9 Roustabout
10 The Wind and the Rain
11 The Devil’s Grandmother
Sam Connor and Dent Wimmer:
12 Massa RunAway
13 Rickett’s Hornpipe
14 Don’t Get Trouble in Mind
15 Pig in the Pen
16 Western Countty
17 Baby-O
18 Cumberland Gap
19 Half-Shaved Nigger
20 Salt Creek
21 Georgia Buck
Eunice Yeatts MacAlexander:
22 Little Massie Groves
23 Wild Hog in the Woods
24 The Miller’s Will
25 Over the River to Charlie
26 The Cruel Sister
Howard Hall & William Marshall:
27 Pretty Little Girl
28 Back-Step Cindy
29 Polly in the Kitchen
Ted Boyd:
30 Sweet Sunny South
31 Mississippi Sawyer
32 Sally Gooden
33 John Hardy
Dan Tate:
34 John Hardy
35 Old Grey Goose
36 Lightning and Thunder
37 Little Fisherman
38 Muck on my Heel / Molly Van
Eunice Yeatts MacAlexander:
39 It’s Hardto Love
40 The Three Little Babes
41 IKnowaPretty Little Girl
42 Lord BatemanI
Volume Two:
Calvin & Viola Cole:
I Fall on my Knees
2 Molly Put the Kettle On
3 It Rained, It Mist
Charlie Woods:
4 Cripple Creek & Shooting Creek
5 Chilly Winds
6 Hog Patch Hill
7 Pretty Girl Down the Road
Dan Tate:
8 Old Dan Tucker
9 Old Mister Rabbit
10 Once I Lived in Old Virginia
11 Sugar Hill
12 The Sailor’s Song
13 Who’s On the Way?
Rob Tate:
14 Fortune
15 Piper’s Gap
Sherman Wimmer:
16 Hounds in the Horn
Stella Kimble & Pearl Richardson:
17 Come All You Fair and Tender Ladies
Pug Allen:
18 Take a Drink on Me
19 McKinley
20 Up Jumped the Devil
21 Nigger Trader Boatman
22 Gold Rush
Stanley Hicks:
23 Sourwood Mountain
24 Groundhog
25 The Arishman and the Squirrel
26 Down the Road
27 Here Goes a Bluebird
28 Riddles & Where’s the Ox At?
29 Barbara Allen
30 Sourwood Mountain
Evelyn & Douston Ramsey:
31 The Girl I Left Behind Me
32 Little Margaret
33 The Lily of the West
34 Somebody’s Tall and Handsome
35 The Truelover’s Farewell
36 The Truelover’s Warning
37 Tom Dooley
38 Hold to God’s Unchanging Hand

Here is a posting that was made to the Mudcat thread "The origins of
John Henry.">Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
>From: Steve Parkes
>Date: 05-Mar-99 - 10:05 AM
>Shop: John Henry , John , John Henry
>
>The story of the man who beats the machine that's replacing him
>seems to be fairly common in Britain in this century. It's usually
>the "little" man, rather
>than the hero; postmen seem to be a particular favourite, for some
>reason - out-sorting the expensive new sorting machine. I've no idea
>whether there's a
>conscious awareness of the John Henry story on the part of the
>authors, but I suspect it's a motif that goes back a lot further in
>history and culture. (Not
>that I'm any expert!)What about it?  Is there a bunch of "man who beats the machine that's
replacing him" stories (ballads?) in Britain?  Examples?  Early
(pre-"John Henry") examples?Thanks.--
john garst    [unmask]

Does anyone know if its possible to get Hedy West's CDs anywhere. I
tried an E mail address for her that was sent out over this list several
years ago but it seems to be defunct.Charles Wood--

At this time, there are no Hedy West CDs available. Hedy announced some a
couple of  years back, but whoever made them did a lousy job, and Hedy
stopped selling them. She was supposed to have some re-mastered ones coming
out soon, but nothing as yet.dick greenhaus
CAMSCO MusicChuck Wood wrote:> Does anyone know if its possible to get Hedy West's CDs anywhere. I
> tried an E mail address for her that was sent out over this list several
> years ago but it seems to be defunct.
>
> Charles Wood
>
> --

Hi folks:Two questions about songs from Sam Larner's Folkways LP "Now is the Time for
Fishing", which I'm currently working on for the Traditional Ballad Index.
The first is a fragment:The Reckless Young FellowI once was a reckless young fellow
I never took care of my life
I sailed the salt seas all over
And every port a fresh wifeI wish the wars were all over
And I safe ashore on the main
And bless me forever and ever
If I ever go whoring againTaking "I wish the wars were all over" as my handle, and searching on
"wars", the closest match I could come up with was "The Deluded Lover". But
I looked in Kennedy and, dammit, it's not the same song, not even close.The liner notes (by Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger, the collectors) aren't much
help; they read: "These two verses are, according to Mr. Larner, 'the
complete song' and that may well be so, although they could, equally well,
be the first and last verses of a longer piece. Asked where he had learned
it, Mr. Larner replied, 'That's a well-known ditty in these parts, a
well-known ditty.' The editors have been unable to trace other versions of
the song."The only thing I can think of is that this might be a bawdy variant on "I
would that the wars were all done", which is in Digital Tradition. But it's
way too fragmentary for me to assign for sure. Any ideas?The second song is:The Dockyard GateList you seamen unto me
For these few lines to you I'd write
Just to let you know how the game goes on
When you are out of sight
Just to let you know how the lads on shore
Go sporting with your wives
When you are out on the raging seas
All venturing your sweet lives.Now, last farewell of her true love
She then began to cry
She took her handkerchief from her breast
To wipe her weeping eye
Saying, "My love is going to sea
How hard it is, my case
There's plenty a-more all on the shore
And another one to take his place.""Now go you down to the dockyard gate
And wait till I come out
For this very day, we'll spent his half-pay
And we'll drink both ale and stout."Now the day being spent with sweet content
And his half-pay was no more
"Nevermind, my love," she then did cry
"My husband is working hard for more
Perhaps it is his watch on deck
All shivering in the cold
Or perhaps it is his watch below
Our joys we can behold."The notes (again MacColl & Seeger) add that Kidson collected a
verse-and-a-half in Whitby, Yorkshire, and give a reference to the Folk Song
Journal, but that's all.Thing is, I'd *swear* we have this one in the Index someplace, and that I
know the plot if not the exact words. But I searched the Index on all the
likely keywords, and racked my memory, and didn't find it either place. Any
ideas on this one?Thanks in advance for any assistance!Peace,
Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]><<At this time, there are no Hedy West CDs available. Hedy announced some a
couple of  years back, but whoever made them did a lousy job, and Hedy
stopped selling them. She was supposed to have some re-mastered ones coming
out soon, but nothing as yet.>>I gather Hedy had nothing to do with them; apparently they were being made
and sold by a high school kid who lived across the street, without her
knowledge or consent, never mind her getting any remuneration. (That was
almost certainly the e-address Chuck had.) I bought a couple of them, and
they were among the worst-sounding recordings in my experience (keep in mind
that I collect 78s!) If I had to guess, the kid had a stand-alone CD
recorder, a Garrard turntable with an incredibly-worn stylus, and very
beat-to-hell LPs of Hedy's records, and every time someone ordered a copy,
he'd play the LP and record it on a CD-R. Utterly unlistenable and
un-airable, even if the tracks started in the right place, which they
didn't. That kid made Legacy Records (the outfit puts out all the bootleg
5th-generation Woody Guthrie stuff) look like Bear Family in comparison.Anyway, from what I hear, Hedy and her lawyers forced the kid to stop, and
she was planning to get the rights to her tapes back from Vanguard and Topic
and issue them herself, but I haven't heard anything of that plan in a year
or so. Folk-Legacy, meanwhile, has kept "Old Times & Hard Times" available
in cassette form, and bless them for it.Peace,
Paul

THE DOCKYARD GATE
is also in
JFSS 2 (1906) p.265
Purslow, Marrowbones p.26 / Palmer, Oxford Bk of Sea Songs pp.270-272
Topic LP SP 104, Harry Upton, 'Why Can't it Always be Saturday'
Steve Roud[unmask] wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> Two questions about songs from Sam Larner's Folkways LP "Now is the Time for
> Fishing", which I'm currently working on for the Traditional Ballad Index.
> The first is a fragment:
>
> The Reckless Young Fellow
>
> I once was a reckless young fellow
> I never took care of my life
> I sailed the salt seas all over
> And every port a fresh wife
>
> I wish the wars were all over
> And I safe ashore on the main
> And bless me forever and ever
> If I ever go whoring again
>
> Taking "I wish the wars were all over" as my handle, and searching on
> "wars", the closest match I could come up with was "The Deluded Lover". But
> I looked in Kennedy and, dammit, it's not the same song, not even close.
>
> The liner notes (by Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger, the collectors) aren't much
> help; they read: "These two verses are, according to Mr. Larner, 'the
> complete song' and that may well be so, although they could, equally well,
> be the first and last verses of a longer piece. Asked where he had learned
> it, Mr. Larner replied, 'That's a well-known ditty in these parts, a
> well-known ditty.' The editors have been unable to trace other versions of
> the song."
>
> The only thing I can think of is that this might be a bawdy variant on "I
> would that the wars were all done", which is in Digital Tradition. But it's
> way too fragmentary for me to assign for sure. Any ideas?
>
> The second song is:
>
> The Dockyard Gate
>
> List you seamen unto me
> For these few lines to you I'd write
> Just to let you know how the game goes on
> When you are out of sight
> Just to let you know how the lads on shore
> Go sporting with your wives
> When you are out on the raging seas
> All venturing your sweet lives.
>
> Now, last farewell of her true love
> She then began to cry
> She took her handkerchief from her breast
> To wipe her weeping eye
> Saying, "My love is going to sea
> How hard it is, my case
> There's plenty a-more all on the shore
> And another one to take his place."
>
> "Now go you down to the dockyard gate
> And wait till I come out
> For this very day, we'll spent his half-pay
> And we'll drink both ale and stout."
>
> Now the day being spent with sweet content
> And his half-pay was no more
> "Nevermind, my love," she then did cry
> "My husband is working hard for more
> Perhaps it is his watch on deck
> All shivering in the cold
> Or perhaps it is his watch below
> Our joys we can behold."
>
> The notes (again MacColl & Seeger) add that Kidson collected a
> verse-and-a-half in Whitby, Yorkshire, and give a reference to the Folk Song
> Journal, but that's all.
>
> Thing is, I'd *swear* we have this one in the Index someplace, and that I
> know the plot if not the exact words. But I searched the Index on all the
> likely keywords, and racked my memory, and didn't find it either place. Any
> ideas on this one?
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance!
>
> Peace,
> Paul--
Message sent with Supanet E-mail

Sam's I WISH THE WARS WERE ALL OVER is a small can of worms in itself.
The first verse is a pretty standard one from RAKISH YOUNG FELLOW, popular on
British broadsides and in  tradition:
Home Made Music LP 301, Walter Pardon, 'Bright Golden Store'
Cecil Sharp Collection (Ed. Karpeles) Vol.2 pp.119-120
and also in Canada, for example:
Leach, Lower Labrador Coast pp.248-9
Greenleaf, pp.102-3
Peacock, Outports Vol.3, pp.880-1
The broadside included a verse about wrapping the narrator in a tarpaulin
jacket, and carrying him the be buried, which in turn gave rise (I believe) to
the also widespread TARPAULIN JACKET versions - see for example
Huntington, Martha's Vineyard pp.57-8
Sandburg, American Songbag pp.436-7There is another broadside song called I WISH THE WARS WERE ALL OVER
see Carey, Sailor's Songbag pp.74-5, Richards & Stubbs, English Folksinger
pp.92-3
but this is quite different in sentiment and rhythm to Sam's.In fact, several versions of THE RAKISH YOUNG FELLOW include the line 'And now
the wars are all over', and I suggest this is the basis of Sam's second verseSteve Roud[unmask] wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> Two questions about songs from Sam Larner's Folkways LP "Now is the Time for
> Fishing", which I'm currently working on for the Traditional Ballad Index.
> The first is a fragment:
>
> The Reckless Young Fellow
>
> I once was a reckless young fellow
> I never took care of my life
> I sailed the salt seas all over
> And every port a fresh wife
>
> I wish the wars were all over
> And I safe ashore on the main
> And bless me forever and ever
> If I ever go whoring again
>
> Taking "I wish the wars were all over" as my handle, and searching on
> "wars", the closest match I could come up with was "The Deluded Lover". But
> I looked in Kennedy and, dammit, it's not the same song, not even close.
>
> The liner notes (by Ewan MacColl & Peggy Seeger, the collectors) aren't much
> help; they read: "These two verses are, according to Mr. Larner, 'the
> complete song' and that may well be so, although they could, equally well,
> be the first and last verses of a longer piece. Asked where he had learned
> it, Mr. Larner replied, 'That's a well-known ditty in these parts, a
> well-known ditty.' The editors have been unable to trace other versions of
> the song."
>
> The only thing I can think of is that this might be a bawdy variant on "I
> would that the wars were all done", which is in Digital Tradition. But it's
> way too fragmentary for me to assign for sure. Any ideas?
>
> The second song is:
>
> The Dockyard Gate
>
> List you seamen unto me
> For these few lines to you I'd write
> Just to let you know how the game goes on
> When you are out of sight
> Just to let you know how the lads on shore
> Go sporting with your wives
> When you are out on the raging seas
> All venturing your sweet lives.
>
> Now, last farewell of her true love
> She then began to cry
> She took her handkerchief from her breast
> To wipe her weeping eye
> Saying, "My love is going to sea
> How hard it is, my case
> There's plenty a-more all on the shore
> And another one to take his place."
>
> "Now go you down to the dockyard gate
> And wait till I come out
> For this very day, we'll spent his half-pay
> And we'll drink both ale and stout."
>
> Now the day being spent with sweet content
> And his half-pay was no more
> "Nevermind, my love," she then did cry
> "My husband is working hard for more
> Perhaps it is his watch on deck
> All shivering in the cold
> Or perhaps it is his watch below
> Our joys we can behold."
>
> The notes (again MacColl & Seeger) add that Kidson collected a
> verse-and-a-half in Whitby, Yorkshire, and give a reference to the Folk Song
> Journal, but that's all.
>
> Thing is, I'd *swear* we have this one in the Index someplace, and that I
> know the plot if not the exact words. But I searched the Index on all the
> likely keywords, and racked my memory, and didn't find it either place. Any
> ideas on this one?
>
> Thanks in advance for any assistance!
>
> Peace,
> Paul--
Message sent with Supanet E-mail

Folks:Does anyone have an email address for Ian Russell?  I just tried to
purchase his _Singer, Song, Scholar_ and was told by the British
bookseller the book is out of print.Ed

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Ian's E-mail address is: [unmask]        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Ed Cray
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2002 3:57 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Number PleaseFolks:Does anyone have an email address for Ian Russell?  I just tried to
purchase his _Singer, Song, Scholar_ and was told by the British
bookseller the book is out of print.Ed

Folks:Thanks to all four of you who passed on Ian Russell's address.Four responses, with two different addresses and a website in less than an
hour.Ed

Hi!        Here I am again. Here are the latest results of my Ebay
searches.        1536682395 - complete 5 volume set of the Dover reprint of Child
(ends May-19-02 10:36:45 PDT)
        1536366781 - Volumes 2 & 5 of the Dover reprint of Child (ends
May-17-02 15:31:25 PDT)
        1535826692 - Southern Folk Ballads, Volume II, American Folklore
Series, edited by W.K. McNeil, 1988 (ends May-14-02 20:21:03 PDT)
        869120203 - ANTHOLOGY OF AMERICAN FOLK MUSIC; Edited by Josh
Dunson and Ethel Raim; softcover, 1973 (ends May-15-02 08:04:41 PDT)
        1535238327 - Whistle Binkie or The Piper of the Party; Scottish
Ballads; 1878 reprint; 2 volumes (ends May-15-02 10:47:30 PDT)
        868082747 - Treasured Polish Songs edited by Josepha Contoski,
1968 (ends May-15-02 19:13:11 PDT)
        1535586840 - Percy's Reliques, volume 3, 1887 (ends May-16-02
18:45:21 PDT)
        1536256025 - Juneteenth Texas: Essays in African-American
Folklore, Texas Folklore Society, 1996 (ends May-16-02 21:22:36 PDT)
        1536265216 - Songs of Erinn, P. J. McCall, c1899 (ends May-16-02
22:50:48 PDT)
        870470202 - RUMANIAN FOLK MUSIC, volume 3, 1967 (ends May-18-02
15:01:20 PDT)
        870857994 - 3 books; THE VIKING BOOK OF FOLK BALLADS OF THE
ENGLISH SPEAKING WORLD, 1982; FOLKSONGS AND THEIR MAKERS by Glassie;
SOME BALLAD FOLKS by Thomas G .Burton, 1981 (ends May-19-02 14:59:12 PDT)
        870744770 - "The British Traditional Ballad in North America" by
Coffin, 1977 (ends May-22-02 10:33:24 PDT)
        1536727797 - Percy's Reliques, 1865 edition (ends May-22-02
13:59:12 PDT)Songsters        2102462488 - Yankee Doodle songster, 1861 (ends May-18-02 08:40:52
PDT)
        870659904 - Sinclair and Helf's Mamma's Boy Songster, 1904 (ends
May-19-02 04:54:29 PDT)
        870114346 - The American Salvation Army U.S.A.Songster, 1870?
(ends May-20-02 14:43:00 PDT)                                See you next week!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi!        Well this should teach me not to post before I finish all of my
searches for the day. Here are a few additions to the earlier list.        869691775 - MY PIOUS FRIENDS & DRUNKEN COMPANIONS, and MORE
PIOUS FRIENDS & DRUNKEN COMPANIONS-Songs & Ballads of Conviviality
Collected by Frank Shay. Dover reprint, 1961 (ends May-16-02 14:24:11 PDT)
        2103251670 - Literary Folklore of the Hispanic Southwest By
Aurora Lucero-White Lee. 1953 (ends May-20-02 17:18:09 PDT)
        871502416 - SONGS OF THE SAILOR AND LUMBERMAN by William Main
Doerflinger, 1972 (ends May-20-02 21:06:27 PDT)
        1536991779 - Southern Exposure by Carlin,Richard/Carlin,Bob;
2000 (ends May-20-02 17:23:52 PDT)
        871738162 - SONGS OF THE OPEN RANGE 1928 compiled by Ina Sires
(ends May-21-02 14:05:58 PDT)        OK - that really should be it for this week!                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Anyone going to Mystic Sea Song Fest this year?Fair lineup of ballad singers, I think.Brief info is at http://www.mysticseaport.org/events/events.html and click
"June."We're going.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Can't make it to Mystic. But if you're going to be in New England for
more than that weekend, you might try to make it to Songs of Sail
2002 in Kennebunk, Maine. For more particulars, go to:
http://www.brickstoremuseum.org/songsofsail.shtmlWould really like to meet you  --  Tom> From: Abby Sale <[unmask]>
> Date: 2002/05/16 Thu PM 05:51:32 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Mystic
>
> Anyone going to Mystic Sea Song Fest this year?
>
> Fair lineup of ballad singers, I think.
>
> Brief info is at http://www.mysticseaport.org/events/events.html
and click
> "June."
>
> We're going.
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>
http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml
>

Abby Sale wrote...>  Anyone going to Mystic Sea Song Fest this year?I try to go every year, Abby, if I'm not singing somewhere else.  Last year
it was the Mersey River Festival in Liverpool.  My wife, Bonnie, has been to
every single Mystic festival... 21 in all!  If you were there last year, she
sang in the Saturday night concert with her group, The Johnson Girls.Saturday is my preferred day but I'm working a 6 day week at USDA that may
delay my arrival till Sunday.  Lou Killen, any of the Mystic guys or just
about anyone you meet from NYC will be able to point me out in a crowd.
Please say hello.  I look forward to meeting you.  Have a great time
regardless.All the best,
Dan Milner

On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 09:44:55PM -0400, Dan Milner wrote:
>
> Abby Sale wrote...
>
> >  Anyone going to Mystic Sea Song Fest this year?Abby,        Don and I will be recording the afternoon workshops in the
Fishtown Chapel as usual. We look forward to seeing you again!        For the information of anyone thinking of attending, I have a
preliminary workshop schedule which shows two ballad workshops - one each
day. Both include Martin Carthy among the participants.                                See you there!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

I'm planning on being there.
John Roberts.>Anyone going to Mystic Sea Song Fest this year?
>
>Fair lineup of ballad singers, I think.
>
>Brief info is at http://www.mysticseaport.org/events/events.html and click
>"June."
>
>We're going.
>
>
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                        Boycott South Carolina!
>        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

I'll try to make it.  It's a tossup each year, but this time looks good.-Don DuncanAbby Sale wrote:
>
> Anyone going to Mystic Sea Song Fest this year?
>
> Fair lineup of ballad singers, I think.
>
> Brief info is at http://www.mysticseaport.org/events/events.html and click
> "June."
>
> We're going.
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Thu, May 16, 2002 at 06:51:32PM -0400, Abby Sale wrote:
>
> Anyone going to Mystic Sea Song Fest this year?
>
> Fair lineup of ballad singers, I think.
>
> Brief info is at http://www.mysticseaport.org/events/events.html and click
> "June."
>
> We're going.
>Abby,        I don't know whether he has contacted you off-list but I know
that Dick Greenhaus will also be at Mystic.        Perhaps, we should plan a ballad-l meeting sometime during the
weekend. Saturday seems to be the day most of us will be there. Any
ideas/comments?                                Dolores
P.S. For these interested in sea songs, there is a copy of Cyril
Tawney's collection of British Navy songs on Ebay. I closes on Sunday.
The auction number is 1536136762.--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On Fri, 17 May 2002 13:01:12 -0400, Dolores Nichols wrote:>        I don't know whether he has contacted you off-list but I know
>that Dick Greenhaus will also be at Mystic.Don't tell anyone but we'll all be at Econo Lodge in Groton.  Susan is a
brilliant hotel-finder.>        Perhaps, we should plan a ballad-l meeting sometime during the
>weekend. Saturday seems to be the day most of us will be there. Any
>ideas/comments?
>
I'm much for that. But have no ideas.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Thu, 16 May 2002 21:44:55 -0400, Dan Milner wrote:>sang in the Saturday night concert with her group, The Johnson Girls.
>
>Saturday is my preferred day but I'm working a 6 day week at USDA that may
>delay my arrival till Sunday.  Lou Killen, any of the Mystic guys or just
>about anyone you meet from NYC will be able to point me out in a crowd.
>Please say hello.  I look forward to meeting you.  Have a great time
>regardless.I keep hearing fine things bout the Johnson Girls but haven't actually
heard them yet.  Carthy & Posen are among my oldest friends but I've never
been in the same room with Killen.  That's how these things go.  This will
be exciting.I'll make a point of meeting up.  I'm thinking that if I make a point of
having a beer with everyone at Mystic from ballad-l & Mudcat it will be
much like "doing Rose Street"... (having a beer in every pub on Rose St,
Edinburgh, eg for a batchelor party or sailors on leave - when I did that,
there were, I was frequently told, barely a quarter of the pubs there
_used_ to be, but still many more pubs that I was ready for.)  But
wotthehell...worth trying.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Thu, 16 May 2002 21:54:16 -0400, Dolores Nichols wrote:>        Don and I will be recording the afternoon workshops in the
>Fishtown Chapel as usual. We look forward to seeing you again!
>
Absolutely!>        For the information of anyone thinking of attending, I have a
>preliminary workshop schedule which shows two ballad workshops - one each
>day. Both include Martin Carthy among the participants.
>
Posen sent me the following for Saturday & Sunday.  I wouldn't post the
whole thing here but it doesn't seem to exist anywhere at the Mystic site.Saturday
Lighthouse Point         12:00-12:50    Concert - Finest Kind
Lighthouse Point         1:00-1:50      Concert-  Carl Thormton
Lighthouse Point         2:00-2:50      Concert- Ancient Mariners
Lighthouse Point        3:00-3:50       Concert- Darren Wallace
Lighthouse Point        4:00-4:50       Concert- Danny and Joyce McLeodShipboardJoseph Conrad    12:00          Chanteys at WorkDavid Littlefield
Warp Four
Michelle MoonCharles W. Morgan        1:00           Chanteys at WorkRick Spencer
Richard Burbank
Chris KoldeweyL. A. Dunton            2:30            Windlass DemonstrationRachel Thomas
Chris KoldeweyCharles W. Morgan        4:30           Chanteys at Work
Don Sineti
Car
l Thornton
Ancient MarinersVillage Green   12:00           Music of the Gulf Coast & West IndiesBarrouallie Whalers
Darren Wallace
Craig Edwards
Bob WalserVillage Green   1:00            Geordie SongsDanny & Joyce McLeod
Louis KillenVillage Green   2:00            Whaling SongsBarrouallie Whalers
Don Sineti
David LittlefieldVillage Green   3:00            Work Song TraditionsLouis Killen
Bonnie Dixon
Warp FourVillage Green   4:00            Dance and Dance MusicMartin Carthy
Ann Downey
Craig Edwards
James Stephens
Darren Wallace
Bob Walser
Jeff WarnerGreenmanville Church    1:00    Rivers, Lakes, and CanalsJeff Warner
Ann Downey
James Stephens
Mustard's RetreatGreenmanville Church    2:00    Women and the SeaDanny and Joyce Mcleod
Bonnie Dixon
Ellen CohnGreenmanville Church    3:00    Fo'c's'le MusicBob Webb
Don Sineti
Bob WalserGreenmanville Church    4:00    Songs of ImmigrationBonnie Dixon
Ian Robb
Warp FourFishtown Chapel 12:00-12:50     Concert- Jeff Warner and Bruce McIntyre
Fishtown Chapel 1:00-1:50       Concert-
 Bob Webb
Fishtown Chapel 2:00-2:50       Concert- Craig Edwards
Fishtown Chapel 3:00-3:50       Concert- Debra Cowan
Fishtown Chapel 4:00-4:50       Concert- David LittlefieldNorth End Stage 12:00   Introduction to Sea Songs
Ancient Mariners
Paddy Westers
Rachel ThomasNorth End Stage 1:00    Ballads
Martin Carthy
Ellen Cohn
Shelley PosenNorth End Stage 2:00    Chanteyblast!Performers, Guests and VolunteersNorth End Stage 3:00    Paddy Westers ConcertNorth End Stage 4:00    Contemporary Sea Songs
Debra Cowan
Rick Spencer
&  Donna Glover
Michelle MoonChildren's Stage        12:00-12:45- Carl Thornton
Children's Stage        1:00-1:45- Debra Cowan
Children's Stage        2:00-2:45- Mustard's Retreat
Children's Stage        3:00-3:45- Carl Thornton
Children's Parade       3:45- Carl ThorntonSundayLighthouse Point        11:00-11:50     Concert- Rick Spencer & Donna
Glover
Lighthouse Point         12:00-12:50    Concert- Warp Four
Lighthouse Point         1:00-1:50      Concert- Ellen Cohn
Lighthouse Point         2:00-2:50      Concert- Mustard's RetreatSh
ipboard
L. A. Dunton            11:30           Windlass Demonstration
Bonnie Dixon
Craig EdwardsCharles W. Morgan        1:00           Chanteys at Work
Geoff Kaufman
Chris Koldewey
Rachel Thomas
BaggyrinkleVillage Green   11:00           North by Northwest- Regional SongsJeff Warner
Bruce McIntyre
Geoff KaufmanVillage Green   12:00           Songs of FishermenShelley Posen
Ian Robb
Darren Wallace
Ellen CohnVillage Green   1:00            Work Song TraditionsBarrouallie Whalers
Bob Walser
Craig EdwardsVillage Green   2:00            BalladsMartin Carthy
David Littlefield
Deb CowanGreenmanville Church    11:00   For Laughs: Humorous SongsCarl Thornton
Pat Sheridan
Mustard's RetreatGreenmanville Church    12:00   Women and the SeaAnn Downey
Debra Cowan
Rick Spencer &
Donna GloverGreenmanville Church    1:00    Songs of Cicely Fox SmithDanny McLeod
Joyce McLeod
Charlie IpcarGreenmanville Church    2:00    Parlor SongsAnn Downey
Louis Killen
Shelley PosenFishtown Chapel 11:00-11:50     Concert- Louis Killen
Fishtown Chapel 12:00-12:50     Con
cert- Geoff kaufman
Fishtown Chapel 1:00-1:50       Concert- Don Sineti
Fishtown Chapel 2:00-2:50       Concert- Bonnie DixonNorth End Stage 11:00   Contemporary Sea SongsDavid Littlefield
Ancient Mariners
Chris KoldeweyNorth End Stage 12:00   Guitar Workshop- Martin CarthyNorth End Stage 1:00    Instruments that Went to SeaBob Webb
James Stephens
Ian Robb
PaddyWestersNorth End Stage 2:00    Songs of North Carolina's Outer BanksJeff Warner
Bruce McIntyreChildren's Stage        11:00-11:45- Bob Walser
Children's Stage        12:00-12:45- Carl Thornton
Children's Stage        1:00-1:45- Mustard's Retreat
Children's Stage        2:00-2:45- Carl Thornton
Children's Parade       2:45-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Boy are Rika and I jealous - but it's too expensive to come from the wet
(sic) coast. Jon Bartlett & Rika Ruebsaat
----- Original Message -----
From: "Abby Sale" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Mystic> On Thu, 16 May 2002 21:44:55 -0400, Dan Milner wrote:
>
> >sang in the Saturday night concert with her group, The Johnson Girls.
> >
> >Saturday is my preferred day but I'm working a 6 day week at USDA that
may
> >delay my arrival till Sunday.  Lou Killen, any of the Mystic guys or just
> >about anyone you meet from NYC will be able to point me out in a crowd.
> >Please say hello.  I look forward to meeting you.  Have a great time
> >regardless.
>
> I keep hearing fine things bout the Johnson Girls but haven't actually
> heard them yet.  Carthy & Posen are among my oldest friends but I've never
> been in the same room with Killen.  That's how these things go.  This will
> be exciting.
>
> I'll make a point of meeting up.  I'm thinking that if I make a point of
> having a beer with everyone at Mystic from ballad-l & Mudcat it will be
> much like "doing Rose Street"... (having a beer in every pub on Rose St,
> Edinburgh, eg for a batchelor party or sailors on leave - when I did that,
> there were, I was frequently told, barely a quarter of the pubs there
> _used_ to be, but still many more pubs that I was ready for.)  But
> wotthehell...worth trying.
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
>                   I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
>                         Boycott South Carolina!
>         http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Dolores Nichols wrote:
>
>         I don't know whether he has contacted you off-list but I know
> that Dick Greenhaus will also be at Mystic.
>
>         Perhaps, we should plan a ballad-l meeting sometime during the
> weekend. Saturday seems to be the day most of us will be there. Any
> ideas/comments?I'm up for a drink with the ballad-l contingent - though I'm not sure
how we'd meet up.  John Roberts knows who I am, and all the Boston
people, and some of the NY and Washington people.  Don't know if Dick
Greenhaus remembers me...  I may even know some of the group by sight,
but making first contact is problematic.-Don Duncan

I certainly remember Don. But, as has been mentioned, recognition can be iffy. At the risk of sounding commercial, you can always buy a Mudcat Tee-shirt (Ballad-L doesn't seem to have any).dick greenhaus
[unmask]
>
> From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
> Date: 2002/05/18 Sat PM 10:46:57 CDT
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Mystic
>
> Dolores Nichols wrote:
> >
> >         I don't know whether he has contacted you off-list but I know
> > that Dick Greenhaus will also be at Mystic.
> >
> >         Perhaps, we should plan a ballad-l meeting sometime during the
> > weekend. Saturday seems to be the day most of us will be there. Any
> > ideas/comments?
>
> I'm up for a drink with the ballad-l contingent - though I'm not sure
> how we'd meet up.  John Roberts knows who I am, and all the Boston
> people, and some of the NY and Washington people.  Don't know if Dick
> Greenhaus remembers me...  I may even know some of the group by sight,
> but making first contact is problematic.
>
> -Don Duncan
>

Well, Abby, there are great ballad singers all over the place but, amongst
ballad lovers who've heard him, Lou Killen always gets a strong nod.  He is
also a great guy with a real love of folk song.You know Martin Carthy, so the only thing I can add is that he says of
himself upfront that he plays (guitar) less and less as time goes by.  I was
at the
magnificent Inishowen Ballad Seminar with Martin a few ago and again at
Sidmouth last year.  In deference to his heavy touring schedule, I decided
not to bore a hole in his his ear with my (very unlikely) deep insights
about anything.  Martin is fun to talk with and muck about with and a great
sport which is as important as anything else anyway.All The Johnson Girls will be at Mystic, I'm sure.  Deirdre and Bonnie are
really good ballad singers so Laws and Child will get a work out... as well
as Sam Henry and Helen Hartness Flanders.  John Roberts and others have
indicated they will be at Mystic... so... who knows what will happen!  In
1997, I fished off the dock in the Mystic River with Roy Harris and his pals
until 3AM.  I look forward to meeting you.All the best,
Dan Milner

Right. You think it will be warm enough for T-shirts. 8" of snow in
the Catskills this morning.
JR.>I certainly remember Don. But, as has been mentioned, recognition
>can be iffy. At the risk of sounding commercial, you can always buy
>a Mudcat Tee-shirt (Ballad-L doesn't seem to have any).
>
>dick greenhaus
>[unmask]
>>
>> From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
>> Date: 2002/05/18 Sat PM 10:46:57 CDT
>> To: [unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Mystic
>>
>> Dolores Nichols wrote:
>> >
>> >         I don't know whether he has contacted you off-list but I know
>> > that Dick Greenhaus will also be at Mystic.
>> >
>> >         Perhaps, we should plan a ballad-l meeting sometime during the
>> > weekend. Saturday seems to be the day most of us will be there. Any
>> > ideas/comments?
>>
>> I'm up for a drink with the ballad-l contingent - though I'm not sure
>> how we'd meet up.  John Roberts knows who I am, and all the Boston
>> people, and some of the NY and Washington people.  Don't know if Dick
>> Greenhaus remembers me...  I may even know some of the group by sight,
>> but making first contact is problematic.
>>
>> -Don Duncan
>>

Folks:Not having planned for it, I will not be in company assembled.  However, I
would like to be informed early on about NEXT year's gathering, so that I
might plan to attend not only Mystic, but what would appear to be the
second annual ballad-l drink marathon and scuttlebutt session.Ed

Boy, I'm envious of all you folks who will be going to Mystic this year.
Alas, because of life circumstances this year, I probably won't get to go
anywhere this summer.  but, do have a great time!  Hope I can get there some
year.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

Yeah, maybe we could all convene there next year.  That would be great.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Ed Cray
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:03 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: MysticFolks:Not having planned for it, I will not be in company assembled.  However, I
would like to be informed early on about NEXT year's gathering, so that I
might plan to attend not only Mystic, but what would appear to be the
second annual ballad-l drink marathon and scuttlebutt session.Ed

Maybe I lost it but what are the dates for the Mystic events...
ConradDan Milner wrote:
>
> Well, Abby, there are great ballad singers all over the place but, amongst
> ballad lovers who've heard him, Lou Killen always gets a strong nod.  He is
> also a great guy with a real love of folk song.
>
> You know Martin Carthy, so the only thing I can add is that he says of
> himself upfront that he plays (guitar) less and less as time goes by.  I was
> at the
> magnificent Inishowen Ballad Seminar with Martin a few ago and again at
> Sidmouth last year.  In deference to his heavy touring schedule, I decided
> not to bore a hole in his his ear with my (very unlikely) deep insights
> about anything.  Martin is fun to talk with and muck about with and a great
> sport which is as important as anything else anyway.
>
> All The Johnson Girls will be at Mystic, I'm sure.  Deirdre and Bonnie are
> really good ballad singers so Laws and Child will get a work out... as well
> as Sam Henry and Helen Hartness Flanders.  John Roberts and others have
> indicated they will be at Mystic... so... who knows what will happen!  In
> 1997, I fished off the dock in the Mystic River with Roy Harris and his pals
> until 3AM.  I look forward to meeting you.
>
> All the best,
> Dan Milner--
He left his home in the heart of the North
To seek streets paved with gold
But when he reached the golden land of dreams
He found he'd struck fool's goldNow some men work for love of  silver.
And some men work for love of gold.
And some men work for bugger all.
And that's all they can afford- The Whiskey Priests, Streets Paved with
GoldConrad  Bladey =
Dance broadly.
Calendar body.
Deadly carbon.
Oddly, Bean car.
Old brandy ace.

I found their site you must be referring to June 6-9.
Any information about cost of admission?
The pauper despite his interest in Geordie Music has just completed the
instalation of a full brass band on the roof of the cap of his pick
up....three french horns, two trombones, one tuba, one bugle, one alto
horn...all playable from the truck cab and has seen his money fly out of
his hands of late....I think the weekend is free if I can calculate time
distance and expense a mirracle of accounting may just occur.ConradDan Milner wrote:
>
> Well, Abby, there are great ballad singers all over the place but, amongst
> ballad lovers who've heard him, Lou Killen always gets a strong nod.  He is
> also a great guy with a real love of folk song.
>
> You know Martin Carthy, so the only thing I can add is that he says of
> himself upfront that he plays (guitar) less and less as time goes by.  I was
> at the
> magnificent Inishowen Ballad Seminar with Martin a few ago and again at
> Sidmouth last year.  In deference to his heavy touring schedule, I decided
> not to bore a hole in his his ear with my (very unlikely) deep insights
> about anything.  Martin is fun to talk with and muck about with and a great
> sport which is as important as anything else anyway.
>
> All The Johnson Girls will be at Mystic, I'm sure.  Deirdre and Bonnie are
> really good ballad singers so Laws and Child will get a work out... as well
> as Sam Henry and Helen Hartness Flanders.  John Roberts and others have
> indicated they will be at Mystic... so... who knows what will happen!  In
> 1997, I fished off the dock in the Mystic River with Roy Harris and his pals
> until 3AM.  I look forward to meeting you.
>
> All the best,
> Dan Milner--
He left his home in the heart of the North
To seek streets paved with gold
But when he reached the golden land of dreams
He found he'd struck fool's goldNow some men work for love of  silver.
And some men work for love of gold.
And some men work for bugger all.
And that's all they can afford- The Whiskey Priests, Streets Paved with
GoldConrad  Bladey =
Dance broadly.
Calendar body.
Deadly carbon.
Oddly, Bean car.
Old brandy ace.

We also have mudcat patches that you can sew onto a hat or jacket.  But yes,
it is often tee shirt weather at Mystic.Susan Friedman, Susan of DT-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of John Roberts
Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 1:20 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: MysticRight. You think it will be warm enough for T-shirts. 8" of snow in
the Catskills this morning.
JR.>I certainly remember Don. But, as has been mentioned, recognition
>can be iffy. At the risk of sounding commercial, you can always buy
>a Mudcat Tee-shirt (Ballad-L doesn't seem to have any).
>
>dick greenhaus
>[unmask]
>>
>> From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
>> Date: 2002/05/18 Sat PM 10:46:57 CDT
>> To: [unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Mystic
>>
>> Dolores Nichols wrote:
>> >
>> >         I don't know whether he has contacted you off-list but I know
>> > that Dick Greenhaus will also be at Mystic.
>> >
>> >         Perhaps, we should plan a ballad-l meeting sometime during the
>> > weekend. Saturday seems to be the day most of us will be there. Any
>> > ideas/comments?
>>
>> I'm up for a drink with the ballad-l contingent - though I'm not sure
>> how we'd meet up.  John Roberts knows who I am, and all the Boston
>> people, and some of the NY and Washington people.  Don't know if Dick
>> Greenhaus remembers me...  I may even know some of the group by sight,
>> but making first contact is problematic.
>>
>> -Don Duncan
>>

On Sat, 18 May 2002 19:36:18 -0700, Jon Bartlett wrote:>Boy are Rika and I jealous - but it's too expensive to come from the wet
>(sic) coast.So must it be.  But I might as well note what the Daughter found out for
us...that the Southwest Air "Friends Fly Free" is available for
reservations made through May 23, 2002.  See http://southwest.com/.This is legit (and covers _all_ their flights, anywhere.)  1/2 price and
all other discounts you might have (eg Over 60) apply as well.  Further,
they are very liberal about their definition of "friend."  To my
amazement, they even include your spouse, no matter _how_ you feel about
them.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

On Sun, 19 May 2002 09:52:57 -0500, Conrad Bladey ***Peasant**** wrote:>I found their site you must be referring to June 6-9.
>Any information about cost of admission?Ok, I've got the brief tri-fold they send out now.  Phone (860) 572-5315.For non-members...
Weekend pass: $60
Fri-Sun pass: $50or indiv. concerts Fri or Sat are $22 in advanceSome brief details therein:
Thurs: "Fitting Out" Concert of mostly Seaport chanteymen groups &
post-concert pub sing.Fri: "Unmooring" Concert, Bob Webb, Darren Wallace etc, Debra Cowan,
Finest Kind (that's the "real" Finest Kind with Robb & Posen & Downey)(bring blankets or chairs)Do a "don't rain" dance.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml