On 4/11/02, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: DoN. Nichols <[unmask]>
>
>> But for most of the stuff we're looking at here, aren't we dealing with
>> text, text and text?
>
><<        And frequently, text with italics, unfortunately.  Otherwise, I
>would push for plain ASCII.>>
>
>How readable is Rich Text Format outside Windows and DOS? It includes
>formatting for italics, underlinine and boldface, plus type specs, but
>that's about it.RTF is readable, but it's also bulky. And generating RTF on different
machines produces different files. And there are different, not
fully documented, variations. So it's *not* really a transparent
format.>Oh, Visio is indeed a Windows program, but I think it exists in a Mac
>version. Microsoft bought it a few years ago.If it has a Mac version, it's too obscure to be useful. I've never
heard of it -- and believe me, I'm always looking for decent
alternatives to the "usual suspects."Personally, I have to think that the answer to this is HTML.
It's compact, it preserves *some* formatting, and it's portable.
The trick is to write *proper* HTML (something most word
processors, etc. don't understand).What we need, perhaps, is a bit of code (probably in perl, so
it can run anywhere) to deal with all the vagaries of the
HTML created by all those dumb programs. For example, it
would pull all <FONT> tags, all style tags, and all numeric
entities except those which translate to actual HTML entities.The result would have to be edited a little, but that's inevitable
anyway.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

How does one obtain the library indexing program?
George"Donald A. Duncan" wrote:> I was just discussing this with a friend, and he says that it started by
> people entering the music of their CDs.  He's not sure whether companies
> provide it now, but if I were a company, I'd do it.
>
> The library indexing software is available free on the Internet, I
> believe - a run-time version of Filemaker Pro.  Dave Palmater, the
> long-time folkie and DJ, was telling me about it a couple of years ago.
> Interesting if Apple has incorporated it into their i-Tunes.
>
> -Don Duncan--
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

James Moreira wrote:
>
> Can anyone recommend a good but inexpensive program for writing out musical notation?  The Maine Folklife Center needs one for song transcriptions.Wow! After reading and responding to several messages in this thread
last night, I got 12 earlier messages in the same thread this morning!
Bubble in the space-time continuum...?I think I should summarize a couple of things from my own experience.First, I use Macs exclusively for music (and everything else where I
have a choice), and don't know the PC equivalent software to what I use.As someone else pointed out, the choice of software depends a lot on
what your requirements, and how much learning time you are willing to invest.abc is clearly the smallest format for files, and makes it possible to
easily swap *tunes* over the intenet. I didn't undertake abc because:1) It seemed to require hunting down a bunch of individually created,
and individually (sometimes) maintained  utilities to do every little
thing - input, notate, print, convert to postscript, convert to
graphics, convert to MIDI, add lyrics, etc. etc.  I've spent too much
time in my life maintaining my own software and replacing and relearning
programs to want to get into this in music.2) I can't read it.  I can read music notation, and it's a highly
evolved representational system, and that's what I wanted for both entry
and output.My first music program was FreeStyle, on special for $85 - sequencer
software from Mark of the Unicorn (makers of Mosaic).  It was a killer
program, one of the first with a really good autonotation engine (play
in the music, and it shows you the music notation), and remains the
standard, as far as I'm concerned, for ease of manual entry.  You set
the minimum duration of note by clicking on it - e.g. eighth note; click
on the staff (it automatically places you at the location of the nearest
eighth note, if that's what you set); the note you're on displays and
sounds, move it up or down and the displayed note changes appropriately
and so does the sound; drag right and the note lengthens - quarter,
dotted quarter, half....  When it's what and where you want, release the
mouse button and go to the next.  Highly intuitive, fast, with audio feedback.The notation section, however, is not designed as a notation program.
You can't use custom spelling of notes, force ties, add firmatas or
crescendos or repeat signs or alternate endings or any of the other
special symbols, adjust note spacing laterally, vary the number of bars
in a staff (important for spacing for lyrics), display two tracks on a
single staff (if I put in four parts, it notated it as a piano piece; I
couldn't keep two voices on each staff), attach syllables to notes, save
the notation as a graphic, etc.  MOTU wasn't going to add any of this,
because it's a lot of special code, and they also offered a notation
program - Mosaic - which did it all.I basically do fiddle tunes and single- and multi-part vocal settings
and arrangements for the group(s) I perform with, and will be doing
music (lyrics, tunes as graphics, and MIDI) to post on my web site -
e.g. shanties.  I needed something better.  Mosaic had much to recommend
it (I downloaded the free demo from the web site) but its ease of use in
some areas was offset by inability (as far as I could tell) to do other
things.  Finale is the oldest and most versatile of the programs
available, the most expensive - and, as near as I can tell from talking
with people who use it, it sets new standards (at least in the Mac
world) for difficulty of use.Allegro - "Finale light" - suffers from some of the same usability
problems of Finale, but it has a lot of musical features and dynamite
output.  And it's more affordable.  And I'm happy with it so far, in
spite of a couple or bugs - particularly since I can, if I want to,
enter melodies in FreeStyle, then move them to Allegro as MIDI files,
bypassing Allegro's slow entry method and getting the best of both worlds.So what you choose depends on what you're willing to spend (time as well
as money) and what you expect to get out of it.  But my personal
recommendation is: a) if you're experimenting, start with
freeware/shareware and get a sense of the limitations of such programs
without risking much money; b) if what you want is publication-grade
music notation (paper or graphics), particularly if you expect to do
lyrics, get a music notation program, and pay what you need to to get a
"professional" one, rather than one of the many mini-programs which are
(or were, at least) for hobbyists.-Don Duncan

A few years ago I purchased four volumes of what appears to be a
hardbound version of volumes 2-5 of the Dover reprint set.  The volumes
are in red cloth with the name, Peter Smith, on the spine of the cloth,
where one might expect a publisher's name to be.  I believe that Peter
Smith was a reprint house. The contents appear to be the Dover reprint
with no mention of Peter Smith as the publisher - the only mention of
Peter Smith is on the spine.  Does anyone have any knowledge of a
hardbound  edition of the Dover set published by Peter Smith?Lew Becker

Lewis:Lovely irony here.  The reprinter (with virtually no manuscript costs) is
ripped off by a reprinter (with virtually no manuscript costs).  First I
have heard of the Peter Smith imprint.EdOn Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Lewis Becker wrote:> A few years ago I purchased four volumes of what appears to be a
> hardbound version of volumes 2-5 of the Dover reprint set.  The volumes
> are in red cloth with the name, Peter Smith, on the spine of the cloth,
> where one might expect a publisher's name to be.  I believe that Peter
> Smith was a reprint house. The contents appear to be the Dover reprint
> with no mention of Peter Smith as the publisher - the only mention of
> Peter Smith is on the spine.  Does anyone have any knowledge of a
> hardbound  edition of the Dover set published by Peter Smith?
>
> Lew Becker
>

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 01:58:29AM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:> ----- Original Message -----
> From: DoN. Nichols <[unmask]>
>
> > But for most of the stuff we're looking at here, aren't we dealing with
> > text, text and text?
>
> <<        And frequently, text with italics, unfortunately.  Otherwise, I
> would push for plain ASCII.>>
>
> How readable is Rich Text Format outside Windows and DOS?        How readable is it in just DOS, without Windows?        It is not supported by the standard unix tools, though I believe
that there are programs which you can download (in source form) and
compile to display it.>                                                           It includes
> formatting for italics, underlinine and boldface, plus type specs, but
> that's about it.        That might be a reasonable choice -- if it were supported by
default in all platforms.  A lot of people are not going to have the
skills to configure and compile a program downloaded in source code
format -- especially on other than the most common target platforms.> Oh, Visio is indeed a Windows program, but I think it exists in a Mac
> version. Microsoft bought it a few years ago.        Is this related to something I saw in a MIS center once, called
"Vis1on"?        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

>How readable is Rich Text Format outside Windows and DOS?Everybody does it.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 4/11/02, John Garst wrote:>>How readable is Rich Text Format outside Windows and DOS?
>
>Everybody does it.Point of order: Lots of people produce RTF. However, while RTF
is presented as a way to accurately represent pages, it ISN'T.I have two different RTF readers, including an old version of
MS Word, in which RTF was originally implemented. I get RTF
files from others.Neither of my interpreters generates the same page once imported,
and neither matches the original document. In other words,
RTF is a format for moving Word files into Word. And ONLY that.
It just claims to be open. It *isn't*. Not if either person
doesn't own Word.Anything people use should be an OPEN format NOT controlled
by one source. Especially Microsoft, since Microsoft revises
the RTF spec at will. I repeat, at will.ASCII or HTML. XML someday, but not yet. PDF is tolerable,
but Acrobat Reader is going downhill fast, at least on
non-Windows platforms.Can someone please tell me what's *wrong* with HTML?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

In the 1920s, Guy Johnson attempted to date the "John Henry"
broadside through typefaces, but both of those used proved to have
been around long before 1900, the approximate date that he finally
speculated.  Here it is nearly 80 years later, in a century with the
most scientific advances of any.  Is it time for another try?FYI, I've already been in touch with an academic isotopic dating lab.
The opinion there was that they have nothing for something that
recent.  Another problem is the desired accuracy - +/-20 yr wouldn't
be very good, +/-10 could be helpful, +/-5 would be very helpful, I
think.Any thoughts?One that occurs to me is ink composition, but I really don't know
anything about that.
--
john garst    [unmask]

It might not be a reprint; he might have had it rebound??  Libraries do
it all the time - there's many a hardbound volume in the Cambridge
Public Library which isn't the original, and some started live as
paperbacks.-Don DuncanLewis Becker wrote:
>
> A few years ago I purchased four volumes of what appears to be a
> hardbound version of volumes 2-5 of the Dover reprint set.  The volumes
> are in red cloth with the name, Peter Smith, on the spine of the cloth,
> where one might expect a publisher's name to be.  I believe that Peter
> Smith was a reprint house. The contents appear to be the Dover reprint
> with no mention of Peter Smith as the publisher - the only mention of
> Peter Smith is on the spine.  Does anyone have any knowledge of a
> hardbound  edition of the Dover set published by Peter Smith?
>
> Lew Becker

Bob is absolutely correct on every point, from my own experience in each
case.  RTF is a Microsoft format, and they change it, as he says, at
will.  I have never successfully transferred closely formatted material
from one platform to another usiing RTF, and sometimes it's completely
broken - not least because Microsoft feels no obligation to read any RTF
they didn't generate themselves (or even, as Bob points out, RTF they
generated in earlier versions of their products)."Robert B. Waltz" wrote:
>
> On 4/11/02, John Garst wrote:
>
> >>How readable is Rich Text Format outside Windows and DOS?
> >
> >Everybody does it.
>
> Point of order: Lots of people produce RTF. However, while RTF
> is presented as a way to accurately represent pages, it ISN'T.
>
> I have two different RTF readers, including an old version of
> MS Word, in which RTF was originally implemented. I get RTF
> files from others.
>
> Neither of my interpreters generates the same page once imported,
> and neither matches the original document. In other words,
> RTF is a format for moving Word files into Word. And ONLY that.
> It just claims to be open. It *isn't*. Not if either person
> doesn't own Word.
>
> Anything people use should be an OPEN format NOT controlled
> by one source. Especially Microsoft, since Microsoft revises
> the RTF spec at will. I repeat, at will.
>
> ASCII or HTML. XML someday, but not yet. PDF is tolerable,
> but Acrobat Reader is going downhill fast, at least on
> non-Windows platforms.
>
> Can someone please tell me what's *wrong* with HTML?
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."

On 4/11/02, John Garst wrote:>In the 1920s, Guy Johnson attempted to date the "John Henry"
>broadside through typefaces, but both of those used proved to have
>been around long before 1900, the approximate date that he finally
>speculated.  Here it is nearly 80 years later, in a century with the
>most scientific advances of any.  Is it time for another try?
>
>FYI, I've already been in touch with an academic isotopic dating lab.
>The opinion there was that they have nothing for something that
>recent.  Another problem is the desired accuracy - +/-20 yr wouldn't
>be very good, +/-10 could be helpful, +/-5 would be very helpful, I
>think.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>One that occurs to me is ink composition, but I really don't know
>anything about that.They're certainly right in saying isotopic dating won't help.
But chemical dating is possible. It need not be destructive;
they can try to get a spectrum on the ink. Problem is, I don't
believe inks changed much during that period. So it won't help
you.Another thing to try is the paper. It's now old enough that,
if it were acidic paper, it would have deteriorated badly.
If it *hasn't* deteriorated, then it's on acid-free paper.
That is at least an indication of a date prior to about
1890.Another thing to examine is the way the type was set. There
are experts around on this sort of thing (it's amazing what
people learn from studying the compositors of Shakespeare).
Was the broadside set by a machine? If so, which one? That
could be a good clue. If not, then that's a hint of sorts,
too.Also, a font can be old but expanded over the years. Are there
any ligatures or odd symbols in the print?It wouldn't hurt to study the orthography (spellings, etc.),
though it might not prove much.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

John:The FBI crime lab -- contact the FBI PIO in Washington -- has a document
analysis center.  That department has done considerable research on inks
and ink formulas.I wonder if they can help you.  Or will help.  They are notoriously
unhelpful to anyone but prosecutors.You know a U.S. senator?  Or maybe a powerful congressman, preferably
someone on the Justice Committee who oversees the budget of the FBI.EdOn Thu, 11 Apr 2002, John Garst wrote:> In the 1920s, Guy Johnson attempted to date the "John Henry"
> broadside through typefaces, but both of those used proved to have
> been around long before 1900, the approximate date that he finally
> speculated.  Here it is nearly 80 years later, in a century with the
> most scientific advances of any.  Is it time for another try?
>
> FYI, I've already been in touch with an academic isotopic dating lab.
> The opinion there was that they have nothing for something that
> recent.  Another problem is the desired accuracy - +/-20 yr wouldn't
> be very good, +/-10 could be helpful, +/-5 would be very helpful, I
> think.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> One that occurs to me is ink composition, but I really don't know
> anything about that.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

At 1:54 PM -0500 4/11/02, Robert B. Waltz wrote:>On 4/11/02, John Garst wrote:
>...
>  >Any thoughts?
>>
>>One that occurs to me is ink composition, but I really don't know
>>anything about that.
>
>They're certainly right in saying isotopic dating won't help.
>But chemical dating is possible. It need not be destructive;
>they can try to get a spectrum on the ink. Problem is, I don't
>believe inks changed much during that period. So it won't help
>you.That's too bad.>Another thing to try is the paper. It's now old enough that,
>if it were acidic paper, it would have deteriorated badly.
>If it *hasn't* deteriorated, then it's on acid-free paper.
>That is at least an indication of a date prior to about
>1890.My recollection is that there hasn't been much deterioration, but
this broadside was already in poor condition, I believe, from use
(folding, handling, etc.), when Johnson got it in 1927 or '28.  A
recent scan can be seen athttp://www.ibiblio.org/john_henry/broadside2.htmlI suspect that this is acid-free paper.  (Or, possibly, it could have
been treated by conservers to neutralize the acid content.)>Another thing to examine is the way the type was set.Johnson consulted an expert who was "certain that the type is hand
composition.">  There
>are experts around on this sort of thing (it's amazing what
>people learn from studying the compositors of Shakespeare).
>Was the broadside set by a machine? If so, which one? That
>could be a good clue. If not, then that's a hint of sorts,
>too.
>
>Also, a font can be old but expanded over the years. Are there
>any ligatures or odd symbols in the print?See the WWW site above.>It wouldn't hurt to study the orthography (spellings, etc.),
>though it might not prove much.
--
john garst    [unmask]

This has not been my experience.  I've never had a problem going from
Mac Word to an IBM-platform Word.  Perhaps, though, I've not examined
the results closely enough.>Bob is absolutely correct on every point, from my own experience in each
>case.  RTF is a Microsoft format, and they change it, as he says, at
>will.  I have never successfully transferred closely formatted material
>from one platform to another usiing RTF, and sometimes it's completely
>broken - not least because Microsoft feels no obligation to read any RTF
>they didn't generate themselves (or even, as Bob points out, RTF they
>generated in earlier versions of their products).--
john garst    [unmask]

On 4/11/02, John Garst wrote:>This has not been my experience.  I've never had a problem going from
>Mac Word to an IBM-platform Word.  Perhaps, though, I've not examined
>the results closely enough.That's still Word, though, and your documents may not have been
heavily formatted.And I've heard *PC* users talking about being unable to get
RTF from one version of Word into another! I can't verify
that of personal experience, though.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

At 2:21 PM -0500 4/11/02, Robert B. Waltz wrote:>On 4/11/02, John Garst wrote:
>
>>This has not been my experience.  I've never had a problem going from
>>Mac Word to an IBM-platform Word.  Perhaps, though, I've not examined
>  >the results closely enough.I should have added "and vice versa.">That's still Word, though, and your documents may not have been
>heavily formatted.Probably true - just various font styles (bold, italic, normal) and
paragraph indents.
--
john garst    [unmask]

I should mention that the Blankenship broadside was, at some point,
glued to a stiff backing.  That's how it can be seen today.
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: DoN. Nichols <[unmask]>> Oh, Visio is indeed a Windows program, but I think it exists in a Mac
> version. Microsoft bought it a few years ago.<<        Is this related to something I saw in a MIS center once, called
"Vis1on"?>>Nope. Originally it was designed for flowcharts and the like.Peace,
Paul

> This has not been my experience.  I've never had a problem going from
> Mac Word to an IBM-platform Word.  Perhaps, though, I've not examined
> the results closely enough.
>No, John, I don't think you have (he said, feelingly, and rubbing the
scars).Just a couple of things: one fairly obvious and the other not at all so:
- graphics while readable when they go across from Mac Word to PC Word are
generally not editable after transfer. Not surprising really, given the
difference in internal archtiecture between PCs and Macs.
- Times New Roman font is not the same on the two platforms. In fact they
are of different sizes!!! :o(
The effect is that you get one line less on a page of text on one platform
than you do on the other (12 pt, A4 paper size). This is horrendous for a
document of any size because of course it messes up contents and indexes,
and makes documents printed out on the two platforms different.There are a few more catches too, but the above are enough to put me off
cross-platform working unless I absolutely have to.Don't you just love Mr BillG........BTW, my two pennyworth on this: I prefer photocopies. Scanning takes too
long and involves too much messing about. OCR ain't worth it. My time is far
too precious. In spite of the computer kit at my disposal, my most important
bit of office automation kit by far over the last ten years has been our
trusty and now elderly photocopier, which has paid for itself a dozen times
over.CheersSimon

On Thu, Apr 11, 2002 at 02:59:57PM -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:        [ ... ]> ----- Original Message -----
> From: DoN. Nichols <[unmask]>
>
> > Oh, Visio is indeed a Windows program, but I think it exists in a Mac
> > version. Microsoft bought it a few years ago.
>
> <<        Is this related to something I saw in a MIS center once, called
> "Vis1on"?>>
>
> Nope. Originally it was designed for flowcharts and the like.        That sounds very much like what Vis1on was being pushed for.
Flowcharts and Pert charts.        Maybe a slight name change as someone else bought the company.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I think it would be very difficult to make any useful dating
experiments--even if we had the original sheet to work with and not just a
facsimile.  One could analyze the inks and/or the paper -- not only
isotopically, but by gross molecular components (in the ink anyway).  This
might tell us that the ink used was not around before such and such a date.
Trouble is, a small town printer (such as the one that did Blankenship's
work, I assume) may have used paper and/or ink that he had lying on a shelf
for years, if not decades.
Of course, I assume you've thought of all this anyway, John.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:33 AM
Subject: Date of Blankenship broadside> In the 1920s, Guy Johnson attempted to date the "John Henry"
> broadside through typefaces, but both of those used proved to have
> been around long before 1900, the approximate date that he finally
> speculated.  Here it is nearly 80 years later, in a century with the
> most scientific advances of any.  Is it time for another try?
>
> FYI, I've already been in touch with an academic isotopic dating lab.
> The opinion there was that they have nothing for something that
> recent.  Another problem is the desired accuracy - +/-20 yr wouldn't
> be very good, +/-10 could be helpful, +/-5 would be very helpful, I
> think.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> One that occurs to me is ink composition, but I really don't know
> anything about that.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

Norm and anyone else interested in Obscure Topics:As I learned from the hard-bitten members of the printers' union chapel
(no kidding, that's what a local was called) in the job shop I worked at,
printers' ink is a perishable commodity.  Even in seal cans, like paint,
it dries, first forming a pudding-like scum, then simply hardening.
Printers might buy a year's supply of paper, but only three month's supply
of inks.  Ink did not lie around long.Ink, in fact, might be a better indicator of age than paper.EdOn Thu, 11 Apr 2002, Norm Cohen wrote:> I think it would be very difficult to make any useful dating
> experiments--even if we had the original sheet to work with and not just a
> facsimile.  One could analyze the inks and/or the paper -- not only
> isotopically, but by gross molecular components (in the ink anyway).  This
> might tell us that the ink used was not around before such and such a date.
> Trouble is, a small town printer (such as the one that did Blankenship's
> work, I assume) may have used paper and/or ink that he had lying on a shelf
> for years, if not decades.
> Of course, I assume you've thought of all this anyway, John.
> Norm Cohen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 11:33 AM
> Subject: Date of Blankenship broadside
>
>
> > In the 1920s, Guy Johnson attempted to date the "John Henry"
> > broadside through typefaces, but both of those used proved to have
> > been around long before 1900, the approximate date that he finally
> > speculated.  Here it is nearly 80 years later, in a century with the
> > most scientific advances of any.  Is it time for another try?
> >
> > FYI, I've already been in touch with an academic isotopic dating lab.
> > The opinion there was that they have nothing for something that
> > recent.  Another problem is the desired accuracy - +/-20 yr wouldn't
> > be very good, +/-10 could be helpful, +/-5 would be very helpful, I
> > think.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > One that occurs to me is ink composition, but I really don't know
> > anything about that.
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
>

Hi!        I'm back after spending most of three days without the Net. I
think that I have caught up (mostly) :-) I am posting this tonight
because there are some books which close on Friday, 4/12 and were not on
the last list. I hope that this reaches potential bidders in time.        856157937 - Ballads Migrant in New England, by the Collectors
Helen Hartness Flanders and Marguerite Olney, 1953
        1528468725 - "Old English Ballads" By James P. Kinard 1902
        856210068 - German Folk Songs 1968 (Someone asked about German
books. This is the first one that I have found since.)
        1091040888 - The Mercier Press Book of OLD IRISH STREET BALLADS,
volume 2, 1969
        1091065585 - "NEGRO FOLK SONGS as SUNG by LEAD BELLY by John &
Alan Lomax, 1936
        856334473 - English and Scottish Popular Ballads, Students
Cambridge Ed., edited by Helen Child Sargent and George Lyman Kittredge,
1904 (There is another copy at auction 857949855 for a higher opening
price.)
        856375510 - AMERICAN FOLK SONGS FOR CHILDREN by Ruth Seeger
(There is another auction of this book. I can't find it just now but a
search of Ebay should locate it easily.)
        856582562 - Latvian Folksongs, Approx 1964
        856591415 - Merry Ditties, Norman Cazden, Editor, reprint of
1958 book
        1529688021 - English and Scottish Popular Ballads, Student's
Cambridge Edition Gold, 1909 (This may be a later edition of the Sargent
and Kittredge book listed above.)
        1529163584 - Bushranger Ballads, Selected by Bill Scott 1976
        1529859161 - Ballads of the Great West, compiled by Austin and
Alta Fife, 1970
        1092182953 - SONGS OF THE MAORI PEOPLE, 1939 in a lot with
another book entitled SONGS OF THE PIONEERS, 1970 (It is not clear
whether pioneers are New Zealand, American, or other.)
        857450564 - "SIXTY FOLKSONGS OF FRANCE" edited by Julien
Tiersot, 1915
        1529987187 - The Oral Tradition Of The American West, compiled
by Keith Cunningham. 1990
        857657925 - OZARK FOLKSONGS, Vance Randolph, 1980 edition of
volume 1, British Ballads and Songs
        857996973 - FOLKSONGS of New Brunswick by Edward D. Ives, 1989
        1530209991 - AMERICAN FOLKLORE A BIBLIOGRAPHY 1950-1974 by
Cathleen C. Flanagan and John T. Flanagan, 1977                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

John Garst wrote:
>
> This has not been my experience.  I've never had a problem going from
> Mac Word to an IBM-platform Word.  Perhaps, though, I've not examined
> the results closely enough.Why do you use RTF, and not Word files?  They both show the Word icon,
but they're different - unless you're using quite old software.-Don Duncan

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<ASCII or HTML. XML someday, but not yet. >>How come not yet? Our fiddler, who designs websites for a living, was
pushing the wonders of XML tonight at rehearsal (I've been keeping her up to
date on this discussion).Me, I still like plain ol' ASCII. Indicate italics with *asterisks* and
underlining _like this_, as has become S.O.P. in e-mail, and let it go at
that.Peace,
PaulPeace,
Paul

> In the 1920s, Guy Johnson attempted to date the "John Henry"
> broadside through typefaces, but both of those used proved to have
> been around long before 1900, the approximate date that he finally
> speculated.  Here it is nearly 80 years later, in a century with the
> most scientific advances of any.  Is it time for another try?Nothing very scientific and high-tech about it, but watermarks are
definite enough if there is one.  Sometimes they change the symbol
each year in some obscure way you have to look up in a reference book,
sometimes they have an explicit date.  Any library that handles a lot
of rare books will have the relevant reference materials.Do you have a reasonably continuous dated run of publications from
the same printer?  If so you might be able to tell something from
the pattern of wear on the type (one of the p's got a nick one year,
an m lost a serif two years later).-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music

Simon Furey wrote:
>
> - Times New Roman font is not the same on the two platforms. In fact they
> are of different sizes!!! :o(
> The effect is that you get one line less on a page of text on one platform
> than you do on the other (12 pt, A4 paper size). This is horrendous for a
> document of any size because of course it messes up contents and indexes,
> and makes documents printed out on the two platforms different.This is the case because Windows simply handles text differently.
Coming from the Mac world, I find myself continually frustrated by the
amount of space they give text and the small number of ways in which you
can vary it - although in all fairness, that may simply be because the
controls are buried obscurely somewhere in the bowels of Word.But the format issues, unfortunately, are not solely PC/Mac issues.  In
things which are *very* closely formatted - e.g. a 4-column flier in
US-legal format - I've had to make text modifications to retain
formatting just going from one Mac to another.  This might have been
subtle differences in fonts revisions, but it might also have been the
printer driver or some other factor.That's a concern I hadn't thought of in transferring formatted text - it
implies that if you want to retain original format, indexing, page
numbers, etc. you're stuck with .pdf or HTML, which "grows" pages to
fit, but of course then makes printing difficult.-Don Duncan

On 4/12/02, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>
><<ASCII or HTML. XML someday, but not yet. >>
>
>How come not yet? Our fiddler, who designs websites for a living, was
>pushing the wonders of XML tonight at rehearsal (I've been keeping her up to
>date on this discussion).XML is not yet an established format. Not enough programs read it, and
nothing can write it.I have other personal gripes about XML (it's not human-writable,
which I find highly obnoxious, since there was no NEED for that!),
but the above is the key objection.Also, it's inherently bigger than HTML -- a little. So if you don't
*need* XML (and I don't see why any of these projects do), it's
better to stick with the older, cleaner, smaller format.>Me, I still like plain ol' ASCII. Indicate italics with *asterisks* and
>underlining _like this_, as has become S.O.P. in e-mail, and let it go at
>that.I could live with that. You'll note that it's one of my options.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On 4/12/02, Donald A. Duncan wrote:>Simon Furey wrote:
>>
>> - Times New Roman font is not the same on the two platforms. In fact they
>> are of different sizes!!! :o(
>> The effect is that you get one line less on a page of text on one platform
>> than you do on the other (12 pt, A4 paper size). This is horrendous for a
>> document of any size because of course it messes up contents and indexes,
>> and makes documents printed out on the two platforms different.
>
>This is the case because Windows simply handles text differently.
>Coming from the Mac world, I find myself continually frustrated by the
>amount of space they give text and the small number of ways in which you
>can vary it - although in all fairness, that may simply be because the
>controls are buried obscurely somewhere in the bowels of Word.
>
>But the format issues, unfortunately, are not solely PC/Mac issues.  In
>things which are *very* closely formatted - e.g. a 4-column flier in
>US-legal format - I've had to make text modifications to retain
>formatting just going from one Mac to another.  This might have been
>subtle differences in fonts revisions, but it might also have been the
>printer driver or some other factor.FWIW, the most likely explanation is that one machine has fractional
widths turned on and the other doesn't. It's something to check.>That's a concern I hadn't thought of in transferring formatted text - it
>implies that if you want to retain original format, indexing, page
>numbers, etc. you're stuck with .pdf or HTML, which "grows" pages to
>fit, but of course then makes printing difficult.If you truly want to retain page layout, there really isn't any
choice but PDF. This point is not open to question. All other formats
are, to some extent, platform- and program-dependent. But why do
we need such detailed control? For the sake of the index? In that
case, you might as well just scan the pages. Otherwise, re-index,
and put the file into a format that easily goes into search
programs.And a question, BTW: Who is going to *do* all this work? I might,
but I have a Ballad Index to keep. :-)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

>John Garst wrote:
>>
>>  This has not been my experience.  I've never had a problem going from
>>  Mac Word to an IBM-platform Word.  Perhaps, though, I've not examined
>>  the results closely enough.
>
>Why do you use RTF, and not Word files?  They both show the Word icon,
>but they're different - unless you're using quite old software.
>
>-Don DuncanThe thought was, perhaps wrong, that trouble would be less likely
with RTF (simpler files).
--
john garst    [unmask]

>>John Garst wrote:
>>  >
>>  > This has not been my experience.  I've never had a problem going from
>>  > Mac Word to an IBM-platform Word.  Perhaps, though, I've not examined
>>  > the results closely enough.
>>
>>Why do you use RTF, and not Word files?  They both show the Word icon,
>>but they're different - unless you're using quite old software.
>>
>>-Don Duncan
>
>The thought was, perhaps wrong, that trouble would be less likely
>with RTF (simpler files).I hasten to add, however, that on those occasions where Word files
were transferred we never had any trouble, even with figures.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>>John Garst wrote:
>>  >
>>  > This has not been my experience.  I've never had a problem going from
>>  > Mac Word to an IBM-platform Word.  Perhaps, though, I've not examined
>>  > the results closely enough.
>>
>>Why do you use RTF, and not Word files?  They both show the Word icon,
>>but they're different - unless you're using quite old software.
>>
>>-Don Duncan
>
>The thought was, perhaps wrong, that trouble would be less likely
>with RTF (simpler files).Now I recall the most recent case: the person on the other end was
using WordPerfect.  Not knowing that RTF was a Microsoft format, we
thought it would be more likely to be universal.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>  > In the 1920s, Guy Johnson attempted to date the "John Henry"
>>  broadside through typefaces, but both of those used proved to have
>>  been around long before 1900, the approximate date that he finally
>>  speculated.  Here it is nearly 80 years later, in a century with the
>>  most scientific advances of any.  Is it time for another try?
>
>Nothing very scientific and high-tech about it, but watermarks are
>definite enough if there is one.The fact that the item is mounted on a stiff backing makes finding a
watermark a bit more difficult than it might have been.  However, I
have examined it very closely, looking for a watermark, and I did not
find a trace of one.>...
>Do you have a reasonably continuous dated run of publications from
>the same printer?It has no date, no place, no nothing ... except the name W. T.
Blankenship.  The only other Blankenship broadside of which I am
aware sold recently on eBay.  Although I asked the seller to ask the
buyer to contact me, I've not heard from him/her/them.--
john garst    [unmask]

> FYI, I've already been in touch with an academic isotopic dating lab.
> The opinion there was that they have nothing for something that
> recent.  Another problem is the desired accuracy - +/-20 yr wouldn't
> be very good, +/-10 could be helpful, +/-5 would be very helpful, I
> think.
>
The half life of tritium is about 12 years.  I know it's been used to date
wines to within a few years.  I suppose any hydrated crystals in the ink (if
there are any) would have exchanged water with the atmosphere over the
years. Then, probably 10 half lives would be pushing the detection limits.
By the way, where is the original that Johnson had obtained?
Norm Cohen

On 4/13/02, Norm Cohen wrote:> > FYI, I've already been in touch with an academic isotopic dating lab.
>> The opinion there was that they have nothing for something that
>> recent.  Another problem is the desired accuracy - +/-20 yr wouldn't
>> be very good, +/-10 could be helpful, +/-5 would be very helpful, I
>> think.
>>
>The half life of tritium is about 12 years.  I know it's been used to date
>wines to within a few years.  I suppose any hydrated crystals in the ink (if
>there are any) would have exchanged water with the atmosphere over the
>years. Then, probably 10 half lives would be pushing the detection limits.
>By the way, where is the original that Johnson had obtained?At this point I'm just expressing curiosity -- but the breakdown of
tritium produces more hydrogen. So there is no inherent chemical
change. How can this be used as a dating method?I must admit that I'd never heard of its use. But then, it doesn't
cover long enough spans of time to really date anything I've been
interested in dating. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> On 4/13/02, Norm Cohen wrote:
>
> > > FYI, I've already been in touch with an academic isotopic dating lab.
> >> The opinion there was that they have nothing for something that
> >> recent.  Another problem is the desired accuracy - +/-20 yr wouldn't
> >> be very good, +/-10 could be helpful, +/-5 would be very helpful, I
> >> think.
> >>
> >The half life of tritium is about 12 years.  I know it's been used to date
> >wines to within a few years.  I suppose any hydrated crystals in the ink (if
> >there are any) would have exchanged water with the atmosphere over the
> >years. Then, probably 10 half lives would be pushing the detection limits.
> >By the way, where is the original that Johnson had obtained?
>
> At this point I'm just expressing curiosity -- but the breakdown of
> tritium produces more hydrogen. So there is no inherent chemical
> change. How can this be used as a dating method?
>
> I must admit that I'd never heard of its use. But then, it doesn't
> cover long enough spans of time to really date anything I've been
> interested in dating. :-)
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."You don't need a chemical change. Tritium decays with the emission of an
0.01861 MeV beta.[See 'Handbook of Chemistry and Physics', edited by David R. Lide (my
former section chief, before becoming head of NSRDS), Table of the
Isotopes.]Tritium lifetime, a critical review: <A
href="http://nvl.nist.gov/pub/nistpubs/jres/105/4/j54luc2.pdf">Click</a>Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

Folks:I wouldn't know an isotope from a strophe, but I must say that I am
mightly impressed with the sheer amount of knowledge demonstrated by
Waltz, Cohen and Olson.  (Waltz is a biblical text scholar, Cohen and
Olson retired chemists.)  In a backhanded way it is an affirmation of the
importance of the private scholar -- people unconnected with universities,
often lacking degrees -- who pursue folklore as a subject of love.  Thus
they define the first, Latin meaning of the word "amateur."Ed

I'm with Ed on this one.  Love live amatuers with high standards!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 5:39 PM
Subject: Erudition> Folks:
>
> I wouldn't know an isotope from a strophe, but I must say that I am
> mightly impressed with the sheer amount of knowledge demonstrated by
> Waltz, Cohen and Olson.  (Waltz is a biblical text scholar, Cohen and
> Olson retired chemists.)  In a backhanded way it is an affirmation of the
> importance of the private scholar -- people unconnected with universities,
> often lacking degrees -- who pursue folklore as a subject of love.  Thus
> they define the first, Latin meaning of the word "amateur."
>
> Ed

  In a backhanded way it is an affirmation of the
> importance of the private scholar -- people unconnected with universities,
> often lacking degrees -- who pursue folklore as a subject of love.  Thus
> they define the first, Latin meaning of the word "amateur."
>
If not indeed the Latin-derived "fanatic"
Norm

Ed:
Was Kenny also responsible for Folcroft publications?  Also from Penna in
1970s.  Too bad they were so expensive (relatively) back then; wish I had
picked up some.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:34 AM
Subject: Small Presses> Norm et al:
>
> Following the example of the late Ken Goldstein, most notably with Norwood
> Editions from about 1970-1976, a number of publishers have reprinted in
> small(er) editions out of print folklore and folk music books.  Off the
> top of my head, I can think of Norwood, Da Capo, Singing Tree and AMS in
> the United States; and EP Publishing and E&R Publishing in UK.
>
> I don't know that Alibris, Amazon and their ilk can standardize prices.
> Book prices vary by condition, whether signed or unsigned, ex-libris or
> no, dust jacket or no, condition of jacket, etc.  They might guide the
> unwary bookseller unfamiliar with Mellinger E. Henry or Celestin Pierre
> Cambiaire -- providing they can find a second copy offered for sale by
> another dealer.
>
> I might add here word of a recent bargain I found remaindered on abebooks
> at Powell's of Chicago: Vols 1,3,4,5,6 and the combined 8 and 9 (in one
> volume) of the _Roxburghe Ballads_ in an AMS reprint.  Total cost with
> shipping for six volumes was $71!  Granted it's a broken set, and I will
> be scrambling to find volumes 2 and 7, but, as Mehitabel the Cat used to
> say, "What the hell, what the hell."
>
> Toujours gai,
>
> Ed

Does anyone have his email address?
Norm Cohen

Norm and Fellow Trivia Collectors:Damned if I know.  KSG had his hand in a dozen ballad/folksong things at
once.What did Folcroft publish that were so expensive?EdOn Sat, 13 Apr 2002, Norm Cohen wrote:> Ed:
> Was Kenny also responsible for Folcroft publications?  Also from Penna in
> 1970s.  Too bad they were so expensive (relatively) back then; wish I had
> picked up some.
> Norm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Cray" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:34 AM
> Subject: Small Presses
>
>
> > Norm et al:
> >
> > Following the example of the late Ken Goldstein, most notably with Norwood
> > Editions from about 1970-1976, a number of publishers have reprinted in
> > small(er) editions out of print folklore and folk music books.  Off the
> > top of my head, I can think of Norwood, Da Capo, Singing Tree and AMS in
> > the United States; and EP Publishing and E&R Publishing in UK.
> >
> > I don't know that Alibris, Amazon and their ilk can standardize prices.
> > Book prices vary by condition, whether signed or unsigned, ex-libris or
> > no, dust jacket or no, condition of jacket, etc.  They might guide the
> > unwary bookseller unfamiliar with Mellinger E. Henry or Celestin Pierre
> > Cambiaire -- providing they can find a second copy offered for sale by
> > another dealer.
> >
> > I might add here word of a recent bargain I found remaindered on abebooks
> > at Powell's of Chicago: Vols 1,3,4,5,6 and the combined 8 and 9 (in one
> > volume) of the _Roxburghe Ballads_ in an AMS reprint.  Total cost with
> > shipping for six volumes was $71!  Granted it's a broken set, and I will
> > be scrambling to find volumes 2 and 7, but, as Mehitabel the Cat used to
> > say, "What the hell, what the hell."
> >
> > Toujours gai,
> >
> > Ed
>

A small cavil: I do believe that the word "amateur" comes from French, not
Latin.Ed Cray wrote:> Folks:
>
> I wouldn't know an isotope from a strophe, but I must say that I am
> mightly impressed with the sheer amount of knowledge demonstrated by
> Waltz, Cohen and Olson.  (Waltz is a biblical text scholar, Cohen and
> Olson retired chemists.)  In a backhanded way it is an affirmation of the
> importance of the private scholar -- people unconnected with universities,
> often lacking degrees -- who pursue folklore as a subject of love.  Thus
> they define the first, Latin meaning of the word "amateur."
>
> Ed

Roy and Other Concerned Philologists:We are both right.  My Webster-Merriam states it is from the French
"amator" (lover) from the Latin "amare" (to love).EdOn Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Roy G. Berkeley wrote:> A small cavil: I do believe that the word "amateur" comes from French, not
> Latin.
>
> Ed Cray wrote:
>
> > Folks:
> >
> > I wouldn't know an isotope from a strophe, but I must say that I am
> > mightly impressed with the sheer amount of knowledge demonstrated by
> > Waltz, Cohen and Olson.  (Waltz is a biblical text scholar, Cohen and
> > Olson retired chemists.)  In a backhanded way it is an affirmation of the
> > importance of the private scholar -- people unconnected with universities,
> > often lacking degrees -- who pursue folklore as a subject of love.  Thus
> > they define the first, Latin meaning of the word "amateur."
> >
> > Ed
>

Norm Cohen wrote:
>
>   In a backhanded way it is an affirmation of the
> > importance of the private scholar -- people unconnected with universities,
> > often lacking degrees -- who pursue folklore as a subject of love.  Thus
> > they define the first, Latin meaning of the word "amateur."
> >
> If not indeed the Latin-derived "fanatic"
> Norm"obsession" also comes to mind.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

Yes -- but I think one of us is righter than the other.  "Amator" is obviously a
Latin form; "amateur" is obviously a French form.  The "-eur" ending (as in
"lecteur" or "masseur" does not appear in Latin.Ed Cray wrote:> Roy and Other Concerned Philologists:
>
> We are both right.  My Webster-Merriam states it is from the French
> "amator" (lover) from the Latin "amare" (to love).
>
> Ed
>
> On Sun, 14 Apr 2002, Roy G. Berkeley wrote:
>
> > A small cavil: I do believe that the word "amateur" comes from French, not
> > Latin.
> >
> > Ed Cray wrote:
> >
> > > Folks:
> > >
> > > I wouldn't know an isotope from a strophe, but I must say that I am
> > > mightly impressed with the sheer amount of knowledge demonstrated by
> > > Waltz, Cohen and Olson.  (Waltz is a biblical text scholar, Cohen and
> > > Olson retired chemists.)  In a backhanded way it is an affirmation of the
> > > importance of the private scholar -- people unconnected with universities,
> > > often lacking degrees -- who pursue folklore as a subject of love.  Thus
> > > they define the first, Latin meaning of the word "amateur."
> > >
> > > Ed
> >

At 6:08 PM -0500 4/13/02, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
...
>At this point I'm just expressing curiosity -- but the breakdown of
>tritium produces more hydrogen. So there is no inherent chemical
>change. How can this be used as a dating method?....Some H is hot, some is not.
--
john garst    [unmask]

At 2:38 PM -0700 4/13/02, Norm Cohen wrote:>...where is the original that Johnson had obtained?In Johnson's papers at the University of North Carolina.
--
john garst    [unmask]

   Does anyone know the history behind an inspiriting song I got from a tape
of the Watersons?  The chorus would rouse anyone out of winter sleep --
"rise up Jock and sing your song/ for the summer is short and the winter
long/ Let's all join hands and form a chain/ till the leaves of springtime
bloom again" -- and the verses, well, I find them intrigingly reminiscent of
the Kipling poem that Peter Bellamy set to music and sings with John Roberts
on the Folk Legacy LP "Dark Ships in the Forest."  That's just a wild guess
though.  Here are the verses:As I went out one morning for to take the pleasant air/ the birds were
singing in the trees and the weather it was fair/ I sat for a while for to
rest me back at the foot of a shady oak/ and bye there come a band of men
with their faces black as smoke.....Now the first come in was a soldier with his rifle in his hand/ just
returned from fighting wars in many's the distant land/and he left his
regiment sleeping at the foot of a foreign hill/ and he's returned to
England, to kill or to be killed....Now the next come in was a sailor, he'd just returned from sea/ he'd sailed
away for seven long years till at last he was set free/ That evening as the
sun went down he anchored by the shore/ and he's returned to England to
fight one battle more.....In the middle of the forest where the blackbird sweet did sing/ the soldier
and the sailor took their place inside the ring/ and when the battle started
they went at it blow by blow/ and when the battle ended down their backs the
blood did flow.....Now a chimney sweep and a doctor were walking arm in arm/ and when they saw
the bondage [?? -- this is a word I may have misheard] there, they showed no
alarm/ for the doctor he'd been travelling, through Italy, France and Spain/
and he had in his bag a tiny flask for to ease the aching pain.....They gave a drink to the soldier who rose up from the ground/ and he began
to sing his song as he passed the bottle round/ and the sailor the same
[rose] up from the ground, as sure as he was born/ and the soldier, the
sailor, the doctor and the sweep, they danced into the dawn.....Any helpful thoughts?  It's a great song.

Recollection and intuition tell me this is a modern (i.e. non-traditional)
song.  Sorry, I don't have the details at hand to be more specific.  I think
you would get the answer quickly at... http://www.mudcat.org/threads.cfmJust click on "Create a New Thread."All the best,
Dan----- Original Message -----
From: "lepleyjz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 3:43 PM
Subject: Rise up Jock>    Does anyone know the history behind an inspiriting song I got from a
tape
> of the Watersons?  The chorus would rouse anyone out of winter sleep --
> "rise up Jock and sing your song/ for the summer is short and the winter
> long/ Let's all join hands and form a chain/ till the leaves of springtime
> bloom again" -- and the verses, well, I find them intrigingly reminiscent
of
> the Kipling poem that Peter Bellamy set to music and sings with John
Roberts
> on the Folk Legacy LP "Dark Ships in the Forest."  That's just a wild
guess
> though.  Here are the verses:
>
> As I went out one morning for to take the pleasant air/ the birds were
> singing in the trees and the weather it was fair/ I sat for a while for to
> rest me back at the foot of a shady oak/ and bye there come a band of men
> with their faces black as smoke.....
>
> Now the first come in was a soldier with his rifle in his hand/ just
> returned from fighting wars in many's the distant land/and he left his
> regiment sleeping at the foot of a foreign hill/ and he's returned to
> England, to kill or to be killed....
>
> Now the next come in was a sailor, he'd just returned from sea/ he'd
sailed
> away for seven long years till at last he was set free/ That evening as
the
> sun went down he anchored by the shore/ and he's returned to England to
> fight one battle more.....
>
> In the middle of the forest where the blackbird sweet did sing/ the
soldier
> and the sailor took their place inside the ring/ and when the battle
started
> they went at it blow by blow/ and when the battle ended down their backs
the
> blood did flow.....
>
> Now a chimney sweep and a doctor were walking arm in arm/ and when they
saw
> the bondage [?? -- this is a word I may have misheard] there, they showed
no
> alarm/ for the doctor he'd been travelling, through Italy, France and
Spain/
> and he had in his bag a tiny flask for to ease the aching pain.....
>
> They gave a drink to the soldier who rose up from the ground/ and he began
> to sing his song as he passed the bottle round/ and the sailor the same
> [rose] up from the ground, as sure as he was born/ and the soldier, the
> sailor, the doctor and the sweep, they danced into the dawn.....
>
> Any helpful thoughts?  It's a great song.

lepleyjz wrote:
>
>    Does anyone know the history behind an inspiriting song I got from a tape
> of the Watersons?  The chorus would rouse anyone out of winter sleep --
> "rise up Jock and sing your song/ for the summer is short and the winter
> long/ Let's all join hands and form a chain/ till the leaves of springtime
> bloom again" -- and the verses, well, I find them intrigingly reminiscent of
> the Kipling poem that Peter Bellamy set to music and sings with John Roberts
> on the Folk Legacy LP "Dark Ships in the Forest."  That's just a wild guess
> though.  Here are the verses:
>
> As I went out one morning for to take the pleasant air/ the birds were
> singing in the trees and the weather it was fair/ I sat for a while for to
> rest me back at the foot of a shady oak/ and bye there come a band of men
> with their faces black as smoke.....
>
> Now the first come in was a soldier with his rifle in his hand/ just
> returned from fighting wars in many's the distant land/and he left his
> regiment sleeping at the foot of a foreign hill/ and he's returned to
> England, to kill or to be killed....
>
> Now the next come in was a sailor, he'd just returned from sea/ he'd sailed
> away for seven long years till at last he was set free/ That evening as the
> sun went down he anchored by the shore/ and he's returned to England to
> fight one battle more.....
>
> In the middle of the forest where the blackbird sweet did sing/ the soldier
> and the sailor took their place inside the ring/ and when the battle started
> they went at it blow by blow/ and when the battle ended down their backs the
> blood did flow.....
>
> Now a chimney sweep and a doctor were walking arm in arm/ and when they saw
> the bondage [?? -- this is a word I may have misheard] there, they showed no
> alarm/ for the doctor he'd been travelling, through Italy, France and Spain/
> and he had in his bag a tiny flask for to ease the aching pain.....
>
> They gave a drink to the soldier who rose up from the ground/ and he began
> to sing his song as he passed the bottle round/ and the sailor the same
> [rose] up from the ground, as sure as he was born/ and the soldier, the
> sailor, the doctor and the sweep, they danced into the dawn.....
>
> Any helpful thoughts?  It's a great song.Notes to disc 4 of the Electric Muse album, Folk 1001:
"The Peggs [Bob and Carole] recorded this original song [Rise Up, Jock]
for Bill Leader...."Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

It was indeed written by Bob Pegg, early 70's I think.
The line in v.5 is "when they saw the bodies there"
If this was really on a tape by the Watersons I'd like to know about
it as I was unaware they'd ever sung it.John Roberts.>lepleyjz wrote:
>>
>>    Does anyone know the history behind an inspiriting song I got from a tape
>> of the Watersons?  The chorus would rouse anyone out of winter sleep --
>> "rise up Jock and sing your song/ for the summer is short and the winter
>> long/ Let's all join hands and form a chain/ till the leaves of springtime
>> bloom again" -- and the verses, well, I find them intrigingly reminiscent of
>> the Kipling poem that Peter Bellamy set to music and sings with John Roberts
>> on the Folk Legacy LP "Dark Ships in the Forest."  That's just a wild guess
>> though.  Here are the verses:
>>
>> As I went out one morning for to take the pleasant air/ the birds were
>> singing in the trees and the weather it was fair/ I sat for a while for to
>> rest me back at the foot of a shady oak/ and bye there come a band of men
>> with their faces black as smoke.....
>>
>> Now the first come in was a soldier with his rifle in his hand/ just
>> returned from fighting wars in many's the distant land/and he left his
>> regiment sleeping at the foot of a foreign hill/ and he's returned to
>> England, to kill or to be killed....
>>
>> Now the next come in was a sailor, he'd just returned from sea/ he'd sailed
>> away for seven long years till at last he was set free/ That evening as the
>> sun went down he anchored by the shore/ and he's returned to England to
>> fight one battle more.....
>>
>> In the middle of the forest where the blackbird sweet did sing/ the soldier
>> and the sailor took their place inside the ring/ and when the battle started
>> they went at it blow by blow/ and when the battle ended down their backs the
>> blood did flow.....
>>
>> Now a chimney sweep and a doctor were walking arm in arm/ and when they saw
>> the bondage [?? -- this is a word I may have misheard] there, they showed no
>> alarm/ for the doctor he'd been travelling, through Italy, France and Spain/
>> and he had in his bag a tiny flask for to ease the aching pain.....
>>
>> They gave a drink to the soldier who rose up from the ground/ and he began
>> to sing his song as he passed the bottle round/ and the sailor the same
>> [rose] up from the ground, as sure as he was born/ and the soldier, the
>> sailor, the doctor and the sweep, they danced into the dawn.....
>>
>> Any helpful thoughts?  It's a great song.
>
>Notes to disc 4 of the Electric Muse album, Folk 1001:
>"The Peggs [Bob and Carole] recorded this original song [Rise Up, Jock]
>for Bill Leader...."
>
>Bruce Olson
>--
>Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
>broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
>or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

Peter Bellamy isn't on "Dark Ships in the Forest," Jean. Tony Barrand is
the only singer on the recording besides John Roberts. That song isn't
there, either, but I appreciate the plug for Folk-Legacy anyway. %^)
Every little bit helps.
        Sandylepleyjz wrote:
>
>    Does anyone know the history behind an inspiriting song I got from a tape
> of the Watersons?  The chorus would rouse anyone out of winter sleep --
> "rise up Jock and sing your song/ for the summer is short and the winter
> long/ Let's all join hands and form a chain/ till the leaves of springtime
> bloom again" -- and the verses, well, I find them intrigingly reminiscent of
> the Kipling poem that Peter Bellamy set to music and sings with John Roberts
> on the Folk Legacy LP "Dark Ships in the Forest."  That's just a wild guess
> though.  Here are the verses:
>
> As I went out one morning for to take the pleasant air/ the birds were
> singing in the trees and the weather it was fair/ I sat for a while for to
> rest me back at the foot of a shady oak/ and bye there come a band of men
> with their faces black as smoke.....
>
> Now the first come in was a soldier with his rifle in his hand/ just
> returned from fighting wars in many's the distant land/and he left his
> regiment sleeping at the foot of a foreign hill/ and he's returned to
> England, to kill or to be killed....
>
> Now the next come in was a sailor, he'd just returned from sea/ he'd sailed
> away for seven long years till at last he was set free/ That evening as the
> sun went down he anchored by the shore/ and he's returned to England to
> fight one battle more.....
>
> In the middle of the forest where the blackbird sweet did sing/ the soldier
> and the sailor took their place inside the ring/ and when the battle started
> they went at it blow by blow/ and when the battle ended down their backs the
> blood did flow.....
>
> Now a chimney sweep and a doctor were walking arm in arm/ and when they saw
> the bondage [?? -- this is a word I may have misheard] there, they showed no
> alarm/ for the doctor he'd been travelling, through Italy, France and Spain/
> and he had in his bag a tiny flask for to ease the aching pain.....
>
> They gave a drink to the soldier who rose up from the ground/ and he began
> to sing his song as he passed the bottle round/ and the sailor the same
> [rose] up from the ground, as sure as he was born/ and the soldier, the
> sailor, the doctor and the sweep, they danced into the dawn.....
>
> Any helpful thoughts?  It's a great song.

Written, as has already been pointed out, by Bob Pegg, this song appeared on
the first LP he and his then wife Carole made together, "He Came from the
Mountains" (Trailer LER 3016, 1971). This recording is another victim of
Dave Bulmer's pathological acquisitiveness, and is unlikely to be reissued
while he retains the rights.The text -in various mutations- regularly appears on "neo pagan" websites
and the like, posted by people who believe it to be traditional. It was
discussed some time ago in the Mudcat Forum, as Dan Milner suggested;
transcriptions of the text as recorded by Pegg and, later, by John Roberts
and Tony Barrand may easily be found there through the onsite search engine.Judging by "lepleyjz"'s transcription, I'd guess that it was a tape of the
Roberts/Barrand recording that he or she heard, and mistook for the
Watersons.Malcolm Douglas

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Hi!        Hope that everyone has recovered from their yearly encounter
with the IRS. Here are a few opportunities to spend the money that you
have left.        Don suggested that I add the auction ending data to my listings.
Let me know if this is a useful addition.        858843214 - Traditional Tunes: A Collection of Ballad Airs,
Chiefly Obtained in Yorkshire and the South of Scotland; Together
With Their Appropriate Words From Broadsides and from Oral Tradition",
collected and edited by Frank Kidson, 1891. (ends Apr-20-02 16:41:41 PDT)
        1529945259 - More Traditional Folk Ballads of Virginia:Collected
with the Cooperation of Members of the Virginia Folklore Society edited
by Arthur Kyle Davis,Jr. 1960 (ends Apr-19-02 16:44:23 PDT)
        858709544 - two books of songs collected by Cecil Sharp; English
Folk Songs and English Country Folk Songs, 1959 & 1961 reprints.
        (ends Apr-17-02 20:54:44 PDT)
        1530562209 - CHANTEYING ABOARD AMERICAN SHIPS - By Frederick
Pease Harlow, 1962 (ends Apr-19-02 18:38:19 PDT)
        1530176511 - SPANISH TRADITIONAL BALLADS FROM ARAGON- collected
and edited by Michele S. de Cruz-Saenz, 1995 (ends Apr-20-02 19:18:18
PDT)
        1092932897 - A Treasury Of Jewish Folksongs edited by Ruth
Rubin, 1950 (ends Apr-18-02 19:02:28 PDT)
        1531021206 - Anglo-American Folksong Scholarship Since 1898 by
D. K. Wilgus, 1959 (ends Apr-21-02 19:23:35 PDT)
        1531021205 - Afro-American Folksongs by Henry edward Krehbiel,
1962 (ends Apr-21-02 19:23:35 PDT) There is another copy of this book
(1531285905) which closes later and in opening a higher price.                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi folks:I'm working on two hymns, and have come to a brick wall. The first is "When
I Die I'll Live Again": I'm only aware of two versions, the skeletal one
recorded by Rev. Gary Davis on "A Little More Faith" (Prestige/Bluesville)
and possibly elsewhere, and a more filled-out version recorded by the Watson
family on their Folkways album, reissued on Smithsonian/Folkways. A sample
verse and chorus, taken from the Watsons' recording:Because I believe and have found salvation
When I die, I'll live again
That I may take part in the jubilation
When I die, I'll live againch.:
When I die, I'll live again
Halleluiah, I'll live again
Because I'm forgiven, my soul will find heaven
When I die, I'll live againD. K. Wilgus wrote, in his notes on the Watson record, speaking of this and
the next song, "The Watson family apparently sang these songs directly from
a song book, but I have been unable to locate them in any source available
to me, despite the conviction that I have met them before." I theorize that
Wilgus may have been remembering Rev. Davis's version, which had been
released about a year before he wrote those notes. But what was Davis's
source? Was this a moderately-well-known hymn? Anyone have any information
on this?The second song is "The Lost Soul". A verse and chorus:Oh I realize, but alas too late
What a dark mistake my all my life has been
I refused his love with a various heart
And I must pay the price of sin.Ch.:I'm paying now the penalty
That the unredeemed must ever pay
Though for help I cry, it's now in vain
For alas I'm doomed, I'm doomed for ayeIn this case I recognize nothing. Anyone out there recognize lines or
verses? Thanks in advance!Peace,
Paul

Hi, Paul.  Have you contacted Dan Patterson, who is a professor emeritus of
folklore at University of North Carolina.  He's done a lot of work on
hymnody.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On Behalf
Of Paul Stamler
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 3:16 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Two hymnsHi folks:I'm working on two hymns, and have come to a brick wall. The first is "When
I Die I'll Live Again": I'm only aware of two versions, the skeletal one
recorded by Rev. Gary Davis on "A Little More Faith" (Prestige/Bluesville)
and possibly elsewhere, and a more filled-out version recorded by the Watson
family on their Folkways album, reissued on Smithsonian/Folkways. A sample
verse and chorus, taken from the Watsons' recording:Because I believe and have found salvation
When I die, I'll live again
That I may take part in the jubilation
When I die, I'll live againch.:
When I die, I'll live again
Halleluiah, I'll live again
Because I'm forgiven, my soul will find heaven
When I die, I'll live againD. K. Wilgus wrote, in his notes on the Watson record, speaking of this and
the next song, "The Watson family apparently sang these songs directly from
a song book, but I have been unable to locate them in any source available
to me, despite the conviction that I have met them before." I theorize that
Wilgus may have been remembering Rev. Davis's version, which had been
released about a year before he wrote those notes. But what was Davis's
source? Was this a moderately-well-known hymn? Anyone have any information
on this?The second song is "The Lost Soul". A verse and chorus:Oh I realize, but alas too late
What a dark mistake my all my life has been
I refused his love with a various heart
And I must pay the price of sin.Ch.:I'm paying now the penalty
That the unredeemed must ever pay
Though for help I cry, it's now in vain
For alas I'm doomed, I'm doomed for ayeIn this case I recognize nothing. Anyone out there recognize lines or
verses? Thanks in advance!Peace,
Paul

On 4/17/02, Dolores Nichols wrote:>Hi!
>
>        Hope that everyone has recovered from their yearly encounter
>with the IRS. Here are a few opportunities to spend the money that you
>have left.
>
>        Don suggested that I add the auction ending data to my listings.
>Let me know if this is a useful addition.Yes, it is. Thanks. Lets me know how long I need to chew my knuckles
before deciding on a price. :-)>        858843214 - Traditional Tunes: A Collection of Ballad Airs,
>Chiefly Obtained in Yorkshire and the South of Scotland; Together
>With Their Appropriate Words From Broadsides and from Oral Tradition",
>collected and edited by Frank Kidson, 1891. (ends Apr-20-02 16:41:41 PDT)
>        1529945259 - More Traditional Folk Ballads of Virginia:Collected
>with the Cooperation of Members of the Virginia Folklore Society edited
>by Arthur Kyle Davis,Jr. 1960 (ends Apr-19-02 16:44:23 PDT)Anyone else here interested in these two? I'm going to try for them
if not.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

>> At this point I'm just expressing curiosity -- but the breakdown of
>> tritium produces more hydrogen. So there is no inherent chemical
>> change. How can this be used as a dating method?....
> Some H is hot, some is not.There wasn't any tritium around at the time the broadside was printed,
so there's nothing to form a baseline.I don't see how this could be useful.  With radiocarbon or similar
dating methods, you know how much radio-isotope your sample started
with.  Even if your broadside had got itself irradiated by an H-bomb
how would you know what the initial activity was?=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

Go for 'em. I don't need the Kidson badly enough to enter a bidding war :-)I think it might be Dean Clamons who is on to the Sharp arrangements
(I didn't notice who was bidding earlier).I want the Harlow. But I'm away for the weekend so I'll have to miss
the final bidding frenzy.Good luck to all.John.>On 4/17/02, Dolores Nichols wrote:
>
>>Hi!
>>
>>        Hope that everyone has recovered from their yearly encounter
>>with the IRS. Here are a few opportunities to spend the money that you
>>have left.
>>
>>        Don suggested that I add the auction ending data to my listings.
>>Let me know if this is a useful addition.
>
>Yes, it is. Thanks. Lets me know how long I need to chew my knuckles
>before deciding on a price. :-)
>
>>        858843214 - Traditional Tunes: A Collection of Ballad Airs,
>>Chiefly Obtained in Yorkshire and the South of Scotland; Together
>>With Their Appropriate Words From Broadsides and from Oral Tradition",
>>collected and edited by Frank Kidson, 1891. (ends Apr-20-02 16:41:41 PDT)
>>        1529945259 - More Traditional Folk Ballads of Virginia:Collected
>>with the Cooperation of Members of the Virginia Folklore Society edited
>>by Arthur Kyle Davis,Jr. 1960 (ends Apr-19-02 16:44:23 PDT)
>
>Anyone else here interested in these two? I'm going to try for them
>if not.
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."

>The second song is "The Lost Soul". A verse and chorus:
>
>
>Oh I realize, but alas too late
>What a dark mistake my all my life has been
>I refused his love with a various heart
>And I must pay the price of sin.
>
>Ch.:
>
>I'm paying now the penalty
>That the unredeemed must ever pay
>Though for help I cry, it's now in vain
>For alas I'm doomed, I'm doomed for ayeThis won't be of much help, but I recall noting, when hearing this
song, that it is a rare type, an minor-key, but old, gospel song.  I
remember seeing it later in one of my gospel song books (of which I
have hundreds, not cataloged, not indexed, not organized).  Thus, all
I can do is confirm that it has a published source.
--
john garst    [unmask]

----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]><<There wasn't any tritium around at the time the broadside was printed,
so there's nothing to form a baseline.I don't see how this could be useful.  With radiocarbon or similar
dating methods, you know how much radio-isotope your sample started
with.  Even if your broadside had got itself irradiated by an H-bomb
how would you know what the initial activity was?>>Isn't a small amount of tritium produced by cosmic ray bombardment, which
occurs at a more-or-less constant rate?Peace,
Paul

Hi folks:Bruce Nemerov of the Center for Popular Music in Tennessee informs me that
"When I Die I'll Live Again" can be found in the Stamps-Baxter "Harbor
Bells, #4", from 1935, and "The Lost Soul", aka "The Lost Soul's Lament",
was published in a J. B. Vaughan songbook from 1900 (published in Athens,
GA) and in "Glad News" (1916, from Hudson, NC). I've written to him and
asked if these books include author/composer information or dates of
composition. Thanks to Bruce and all who responded.Another question: Blind Lemon Jefferson recorded a spiritual, "He Arose from
the Dead" on Paramount 4579-1, presumably late 1920s; I now find that the
Fisk Jubilee Singers recorded it on a Folkways album from 1955. Two
questions: Do any of you know the origins of *that* one? And did the Fisk
Jubilee Singers also record it on a 78, and if so, what's the label and
number?Thanks in advance!Peace,
Paul

Paul et al:I knew in 1960 that a $1.00 investment in the broken-back copy of J.B.T.
Marsh's _The Story of the Jubilee Singers; With Their Songs,_ revised
edition (NY: S.W. Green's Son, 1883) would be a wise decision.No. 38 (p. 160) is "He Arose."  No. 88 (pp. 208-09) is "He Rose from the
Dead."  They share similar, not identical texts.In other words, the hymn/spiritual probably has roots in the
pre-Emancipation South.EdOn Wed, 17 Apr 2002, Paul Stamler wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> Bruce Nemerov of the Center for Popular Music in Tennessee informs me that
> "When I Die I'll Live Again" can be found in the Stamps-Baxter "Harbor
> Bells, #4", from 1935, and "The Lost Soul", aka "The Lost Soul's Lament",
> was published in a J. B. Vaughan songbook from 1900 (published in Athens,
> GA) and in "Glad News" (1916, from Hudson, NC). I've written to him and
> asked if these books include author/composer information or dates of
> composition. Thanks to Bruce and all who responded.
>
> Another question: Blind Lemon Jefferson recorded a spiritual, "He Arose from
> the Dead" on Paramount 4579-1, presumably late 1920s; I now find that the
> Fisk Jubilee Singers recorded it on a Folkways album from 1955. Two
> questions: Do any of you know the origins of *that* one? And did the Fisk
> Jubilee Singers also record it on a 78, and if so, what's the label and
> number?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

I laid off the two Sharp books when i saw anglo@albany was the bidder. I
didn't want to repeat the fiasco of the Cohen "Long Steel Rail" auction.
I started on the Kidson, but I have an old copy and really don't have to
have it. It's just that no one had bid when I entered the fray.
        Sandy PatonJohn Roberts wrote:
>
> Go for 'em. I don't need the Kidson badly enough to enter a bidding war :-)
>
> I think it might be Dean Clamons who is on to the Sharp arrangements
> (I didn't notice who was bidding earlier).
>
> I want the Harlow. But I'm away for the weekend so I'll have to miss
> the final bidding frenzy.
>
> Good luck to all.
>
> John.
>
> >On 4/17/02, Dolores Nichols wrote:
> >
> >>Hi!
> >>
> >>        Hope that everyone has recovered from their yearly encounter
> >>with the IRS. Here are a few opportunities to spend the money that you
> >>have left.
> >>
> >>        Don suggested that I add the auction ending data to my listings.
> >>Let me know if this is a useful addition.
> >
> >Yes, it is. Thanks. Lets me know how long I need to chew my knuckles
> >before deciding on a price. :-)
> >
> >>        858843214 - Traditional Tunes: A Collection of Ballad Airs,
> >>Chiefly Obtained in Yorkshire and the South of Scotland; Together
> >>With Their Appropriate Words From Broadsides and from Oral Tradition",
> >>collected and edited by Frank Kidson, 1891. (ends Apr-20-02 16:41:41 PDT)
> >>        1529945259 - More Traditional Folk Ballads of Virginia:Collected
> >>with the Cooperation of Members of the Virginia Folklore Society edited
> >>by Arthur Kyle Davis,Jr. 1960 (ends Apr-19-02 16:44:23 PDT)
> >
> >Anyone else here interested in these two? I'm going to try for them
> >if not.
> >--
> >Bob Waltz
> >[unmask]
> >
> >"The one thing we learn from history --
> >   is that no one ever learns from history."

>Another question: Blind Lemon Jefferson recorded a spiritual, "He Arose from
>the Dead" on Paramount 4579-1, presumably late 1920s; I now find that the
>Fisk Jubilee Singers recorded it on a Folkways album from 1955. Two
>questions: Do any of you know the origins of *that* one? And did the Fisk
>Jubilee Singers also record it on a 78, and if so, what's the label and
>number?Don't know much about this except to note that it exists in a highly
arranged version that was popular among black college choruses,
accompanied by piano, and that a version is in The Sacred Harp.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>...a version [of "He Arose"] is in The Sacred Harp.And I believe that a recording of this has been reissued on CD, but
off the top of my head I don't know which one.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 4/17/02, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
>
><<There wasn't any tritium around at the time the broadside was printed,
>so there's nothing to form a baseline.
>
>I don't see how this could be useful.  With radiocarbon or similar
>dating methods, you know how much radio-isotope your sample started
>with.  Even if your broadside had got itself irradiated by an H-bomb
>how would you know what the initial activity was?>>
>
>Isn't a small amount of tritium produced by cosmic ray bombardment, which
>occurs at a more-or-less constant rate?Not just cosmic ray bombardment, but also contact with other
radioactives. This stands to reason; scientists knew tritium
existed before they started making fusion bombs. :-)But this makes me wonder about the method. Is it based on *decay*
of tritium, or on *absolute quantity*? I'd think it would be the
former.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

At 1:22 PM -0500 4/17/02, Robert B. Waltz wrote:>On 4/17/02, Paul Stamler wrote:
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
>>
>><<There wasn't any tritium around at the time the broadside was printed,
>>so there's nothing to form a baseline.
>>
>>I don't see how this could be useful.  With radiocarbon or similar
>>dating methods, you know how much radio-isotope your sample started
>>with.  Even if your broadside had got itself irradiated by an H-bomb
>>how would you know what the initial activity was?>>
>>
>>Isn't a small amount of tritium produced by cosmic ray bombardment, which
>>occurs at a more-or-less constant rate?
>
>Not just cosmic ray bombardment, but also contact with other
>radioactives. This stands to reason; scientists knew tritium
>existed before they started making fusion bombs. :-)
>
>But this makes me wonder about the method. Is it based on *decay*
>of tritium, or on *absolute quantity*? I'd think it would be the
>former.FWIW, my old Handbook of Chemistry and Physics does not give a
natural abundance for T (^3 H).  I take this to mean that it was
undetectable inn 1972 (year of the book).--
john garst    [unmask]

On Wednesday, April 17, 2002 9:56 AM, John Roberts [SMTP:[unmask]]
wrote:
> Go for 'em. I don't need the Kidson badly enough to enter a bidding war :-)
>
> I think it might be Dean Clamons who is on to the Sharp arrangements
> (I didn't notice who was bidding earlier).
>
It is me bidding on the Sharp stuff. My policy is generally that I will put in
a bid for the maximum I'm willing to pay. I will rarely indulge in a bidding
war (if some volume of Bronson comes along I don't know what I will do).Dean Clamons
Code 7420
Naval Research Lab
Washington, DC 20375
202-767-2732

I must say I don't like the practice of declaring beforehand that one is
interested in items on EBay.  I'm a frequent bidder for our Folk Song
Society (I'm normally watching the maximum 20 items) and have
extraordinarily short pockets. If the bidding is not "open" to all comers
(as it is in a real, rather than a virtual auction), or "closed" to all
comers, then I think cheapskates like me will be disadvantaged.  Knowledge
of bids and what lies behind them (as someone noting that he's put in his
highest price) tends to rig the auction; and does us all a disservice. My
2c.

John Garst wrote:
>
> At 1:22 PM -0500 4/17/02, Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> >On 4/17/02, Paul Stamler wrote:
> >
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
> >>
> >><<There wasn't any tritium around at the time the broadside was printed,
> >>so there's nothing to form a baseline.
> >>
>
> FWIW, my old Handbook of Chemistry and Physics does not give a
> natural abundance for T (^3 H).  I take this to mean that it was
> undetectable inn 1972 (year of the book).
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]The point is a good one. There's a little 'natural' Tritium
from -
  Nitrogen 14 + neutron -> Carbon 12 + Tritium
[or,  "       "   "     "  Carbon 14 + proton]But most Tritium in a 'natural' sample now is said to come nuclear
tests, so without a sample of 'natural' hydrogen from c 1900,
there's no basis for a dating. <A
href="http://hil.whoi.edu/dating/dates.html"> Click</a>Unmeasurable by mass measurement (or underivable from mass +
energy balance) doesn't mean it's zero. Decay emissions are much
more easily measured than masses. Tritium decay (to Helium 3) is
used to date ground water samples. (Search on google for 'tritium
dating'.)Bruce Olson
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