On Sat, Nov 10, 2001 at 07:42:21PM -0800, Ed Cray wrote:> I nominate Don Nichols as email gostmaster general of the United States.
>
> Positives: he gets to be called general.  No unwanted spores in email.  He
> sits in the President's cabinet.
>
> Negatives: He sits in the President's cabinet.        I think that the negative outweighs the positives, so I must
respectfully decline the post.        Thanks,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Dear All,I haven't been near a computer for 48 hours (joy and rapture) so I have
just had the opportunity to read all your wise saws about Celtoidity.Nice comments.Andy

Mary Stafford wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, anyone have an idea of the value of the Bronson volumes? I have the full set, bought years back as they were being published, in excellent shape. Not that I'm thinking of selling them, but that I sort of want to have an idea of value as I leave them to my kids in my will! I also have the hardcover Child set published by Cooper Square Press, condition good (some covers a bit loose, all pages intact), and Sharp's English Folk Songs From the Southern Appalachians, 2 volumes, Oxford University Press, London, 1932, also in good condition. Any guesses at value would be appreciated.
>To confirm what Ed said, a friend who specializes in folk-related books
told me in 1998 or early 1999 that he could get $500 for the set in
reasonably good condition.  In early 2000 I saw, I think, 2 volumes
only, listed for $250.  A local bookseller had one volume and was asking
$125, which I couldn't afford.  He asked what the e-price was; I told
him, and he said that indicated his price was in the ballpark.Since that time my bookdealer friend has told me that if I find a copy
at $125, he'll take it!  What seems to have happened is that the only
way most people can find the book is electronically, and someone is
willing to pay the price - so now more people are selling
electronically, and prices have gone up.I was astonished at what people were asking for the Dover Child set - I
was looking for a set for $50, which was the going price a few years
ago.  But the price has kept going up, and turnover is limited, so I
shrugged and bought a set for $350 recently.  All the other sets were
listed for $500 and up, and single volumes are going for $70-90 - I've
been told I got a bargain!!!  Go figure!Anyway, I'd feel comfortable saying your set is worth $1,000 - if I
manage to stay afloat in this economic environment for awhile longer,
I'd consider paying that myself, and of course yours doesn't have the
library defacement/wear.  But of course, that's last year's price... The
people who have them are keeping them, so when a full set finally shows
up on E-Bay, who knows how high a bidder will go?  And if someone
decides to reprint them (no candidates in sight), it could come down
with a crash...!!-Don Duncan

Thanks, John, I forgot to mention here that I did see that in the info
on the Folktrax web site. Obviously without consulting him I still can't
say for certain that Jeff got it directly from there, but it sure seems
likely!John Moulden wrote:
 >> The Virginia anthology has a lot of banjo, I
 >> suspect Jeff Davis (it was that Jeff) got "Pat Do This" from there. > "Pat do this" is recorded on Folktrax 908 "Cumberland Gap" A16
 > recorded from Florence Fitzgerald (Mrs Puckett) Afton, Nelson County
 > Va.~ Becky
--
Becky Nankivell, Managing Director
Tucson Friends of Traditional Music
[unmask]   *   www.tftm.org
             520-293-3783
P.O. Box 40654, Tucson, AZ 85717-0654

Donald and Eavesdroppers:You note that the prices of various books (Bronson's four volumes/the
Dover reprint of Child) will fall, sometimes precipitously when reprint
editions are offered.Logic would suggest this is true, but my three year tracking of prices for
folklore and folk music books suggests the fall is not so severe as one
might think.  Kenneth Goldstein's reprints in the 1960s and 1970s of
various standard collections (White, Henry, Gardner and Chickering,
Morris, Eddy, et al), command prices in the $40-$50 range, while the first
editions go for $50-75.As it happens, there is a publisher, apparently knowledgable, willing to
reprint various folk song collections.  He has Bronson under
consideration.  If you have any further suggestions, send them along.Ed

Hopefully the reply function will now work so that the default will be that
messages will go to the list.Let me know how it works.     MargeE-mail: [unmask]

Marge Steiner wrote:
>
> Hopefully the reply function will now work so that the default will be that
> messages will go to the list.
>
> Let me know how it works.
>
>      Marge
>
> E-mail: [unmask]Great! Thank you very much.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

<<Hopefully the reply function will now work so that the default will be
that
messages will go to the list.Let me know how it works.>>I just tried, and it did. So now someone reply to this, and let's see what
happens. (Since a reply to a message of mine was what brought the issue up
in the first place!)Peace,
Paul

Well since it was I who replied to your message, I shall do so again.
And indeed it's going to the right place. Well done Marge.John Roberts.><<Hopefully the reply function will now work so that the default will be
>that
>messages will go to the list.
>
>Let me know how it works.>>
>
>I just tried, and it did. So now someone reply to this, and let's see what
>happens. (Since a reply to a message of mine was what brought the issue up
>in the first place!)
>
>Peace,
>Paul

On 11/13/01, John Roberts wrote:>Well since it was I who replied to your message, I shall do so again.
>And indeed it's going to the right place. Well done Marge.I have replied to all four messages so far (didn't send the first
one because my mail server was out last night). All four went back
to Ballad-L. Several were from people who have reply-to headers
in their mail.So, yes, I think you can declare it officially fixed.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 12:43:29AM -0600, Paul Stamler wrote:> Reply-To:     Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>> <<Hopefully the reply function will now work so that the default will be
> that
> messages will go to the list.
>
> Let me know how it works.>>
>
> I just tried, and it did. So now someone reply to this, and let's see what
> happens. (Since a reply to a message of mine was what brought the issue up
> in the first place!)        O.K.  I'll reply to it, but it isn't necessary, since I could
see the "Reply-To: " (which I've left quoted above from the headers.)        Thanks, Marge,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Paul Stamler wrote:
>
> <<Hopefully the reply function will now work so that the default will be
> that
> messages will go to the list.
>
> Let me know how it works.>>
>
> I just tried, and it did. So now someone reply to this, and let's see what
> happens. (Since a reply to a message of mine was what brought the issue up
> in the first place!)
>
> Peace,
> PaulPaul,You did not bring it up in the first place.If you look at the messages with subject 'Reply-to:' in the Ballad-L
Archives for March of 1999, you will see that I raised the issue then,
but we were told the listserv server was configured 'correctly', with
the implication that nothing could be done to change it. After 2 1/2
years we now have the server configured the way I would call 'correct'.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

Sorry to bother you, but I want to make a final text of the new listserv
configuration here.Please do not reply to the 'From' address here. This is a test to
see what now appears in the 'From:' address of messages to
Ballad-L as the listserv server is presently configured.  Is it
the email address from which the message was posted, or that
given in the 'Reply to' specified by the poster in his/her email
setup? I've put a fake 'Reply to' address, [unmask],
into my email setup for this posting, and if all is now well I think
it will appear here as the 'From:' address, but I can't be sure that
I can guess what someone else takes to be 'correctly' configured.Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Sorry to bother you, but I want to make a final text of the new listserv
> configuration here.
>
> Please do not reply to the 'From' address here. This is a test to
> see what now appears in the 'From:' address of messages to
> Ballad-L as the listserv server is presently configured.  Is it
> the email address from which the message was posted, or that
> given in the 'Reply to' specified by the poster in his/her email
> setup? I've put a fake 'Reply to' address, [unmask],
> into my email setup for this posting, and if all is now well I think
> it will appear here as the 'From:' address, but I can't be sure that
> I can guess what someone else takes to be 'correctly' configured.
>
> Bruce Olson
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
> or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.'From:' seems to be the address from which the message was posted, so I
don't know what you can do if you want off-list replies to go to a
different email address than the one you posted from.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 04:01:43PM -0500, Bruce Olson wrote:> Bruce Olson wrote:
> >
> > Sorry to bother you, but I want to make a final text of the new listserv
> > configuration here.
> >
> > Please do not reply to the 'From' address here. This is a test to
> > see what now appears in the 'From:' address of messages to        [ ... ]> > into my email setup for this posting, and if all is now well I think
> > it will appear here as the 'From:' address, but I can't be sure that
> > I can guess what someone else takes to be 'correctly' configured.        [ ... ]> 'From:' seems to be the address from which the message was posted, so I
> don't know what you can do if you want off-list replies to go to a
> different email address than the one you posted from.        Learn how to forge your headers. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 04:01:43PM -0500, Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> > Bruce Olson wrote:
> > >
> > > Sorry to bother you, but I want to make a final text of the new listserv
> > > configuration here.
> > >
> > > Please do not reply to the 'From' address here. This is a test to
> > > see what now appears in the 'From:' address of messages to
>
>         [ ... ]
>
> > > into my email setup for this posting, and if all is now well I think
> > > it will appear here as the 'From:' address, but I can't be sure that
> > > I can guess what someone else takes to be 'correctly' configured.
>
>         [ ... ]
>
> > 'From:' seems to be the address from which the message was posted, so I
> > don't know what you can do if you want off-list replies to go to a
> > different email address than the one you posted from.
>
>         Learn how to forge your headers. :-)
>
>         Enjoy,
>                 DoN.
>
> --
>  Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
>         (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
>            --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---Or add a reply-to address into your message, or put a reply-to address
in the signature file that you put at the end of the messsages you send
(if you have made such).Bruce Olson

> Lani asks about meter as a determiner or identifier.  In her thesis on
> "tune families," Anne Dhu Shapiro cites it as just one factor, a theory
> with which I concur.  George Pullen Jackson in his four works on the white
> spiritual identifies hundreds of long meter (6 and 7 beats per line)
> tunes.  If meter alone were of much help in identifying tunes, I suspect
> he would have grouped many more of these tunes in "families" or
> "clusters."Tune classification has very little to do with what I was asking; if you
look through the list of tunes you get from an unusual metre in "Le Cle
du Caveau", you won't get very many tunes but they will be *totally*
unrelated to each other by any musical criterion beyond fitting the same
text.What I'm after is knowing *exactly* what tune a broadside-monger had
in mind.  A tune in the same general family from an unrelated time
and place is no use to me at all.  If I get a bunch of candidates from
the same time and place (e.g. known in Edinburgh at the time of the 1832
cholera) I can sift them on a textual basis - which one would make for
the most apt parody, given the usual words people thought of for it then?As I said, in three of the examples I listed I can't think of EVEN ONE
tune that fits.  I'd be delighted to get a list of hundreds of tunes,
I could search it a lot more productively than a list of *zero* tunes,
which is where I'm at just now.  I'm quite used to reading the whole of
Gore's fiddle tune index from cover to cover at a sitting looking for
one relevant item.: Please, let me ask for a small step backwards:  I am aware
: that there are many collections of hymns which include detailed
: summaries of the verse patterns, usually in the form of a series
: of numbers indicating the number of syllables in each line of a
: verse, e.g. 7,7,7,7, or 8,6,8,6.
:  Would that be the basis of the projected 'index'?  Or some other
: metric measurement?I can't get at "Le Cle du Caveau" any more to check, but it was a bit
more sophisticated than that - typically with a French song you mix
masculine and feminine rhymes together in equal proportions in a
distinctive pattern, and the classification took account of this (in
your notation you might get something like 7M,7F,7F,7M, which cuts the
search space down by a factor of 6).  The one time I really needed
to use it, it got me bang onto a tune with an obvious (in hindsight)
historical connection to my target text in a couple of minutes.  It
really is an effective tool.The rhyme pattern of that cholera song (three matching masculine rhymes
and an unrhymed dactylic ending) is so unusual that, even if you were
to ignore all other metric features, it must cut the search space down
to a handful of items from the total corpus of English song.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music

>  > Lani asks about meter as a determiner or identifier.  In her thesis on
>>  "tune families," Anne Dhu Shapiro cites it as just one factor, a theory
>  > with which I concur.In my analysis, I would not include meter at all when looking at melody.--
john garst    [unmask]

Are you ready to gnash your teeth, folks?One of the newer universities in England threw out all its folk books a
couple of years back. Allegedly it needed the shelf space. So... A friend
of mine picked up 1 full set of Bronson for £5 in total, and then another
set missing volume 4 for another fiver. They were going to give it away
because of the missing volume............Anyone got a spare volume 4?CheersSimon

Sorry to be so late in responding to this.  To my ear, the tune is not
"Wreck of Old 97" or "Ship that Never Returned" (which is much the same
tune), but is much closer to Carson Robison's "Wreck of Number Nine" ("On a
cold winter's night....").
Norm

Norm:I will file your suggestion away with the others received.  Trouble is, I
can't write in my supposedly authoritative biography that Guthrie MAY have
used this or that tune.But I will figure out a way to blame you folks for not giving me a firm
answer.EdOn Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Norm Cohen wrote:> Sorry to be so late in responding to this.  To my ear, the tune is not
> "Wreck of Old 97" or "Ship that Never Returned" (which is much the same
> tune), but is much closer to Carson Robison's "Wreck of Number Nine" ("On a
> cold winter's night....").
> Norm
>

Hi!        Here I am again! One particular seller seems to have a number of
auctions of folklore books from the 1920's and 1930's.        1486384241 Folklore from the Schoharie Hills, New York by
Gardner published 1937
        1486422505 - Folklore from Maryland by Whitney & Canfield 1925
        1486419312 - Folklore in the English & Scottish Ballads by
Wimberly published in 1928
        1486423534 - Folk Songs of Old New England by Linscott 1939
        1486421363 - Ballads and Songs of Southern Michigan by Gardner &
Chickering published in 1939        Other items of interest:        1486429566 - Minstrelsy of the Scottish Border by Scot not sure
what edition
        1486011285 - Percy's Reliques (volume 1 of 2)
        1485360285 - 4 issues of the New York Folklore Quarterly dated
between May, 1945 and winter, 1946
        1485492499 - Colcord Songs of American Sailormen 1938                Hope that there is something of interest here!                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi Again!        Sorry to be back so soon but I found this after sending the last
email.        1486409612 - English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians
                        Cecil Sharp 1960 edition                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dolores, what is the price of Sharp's English Folk Songs from the Southern
Appalachians (1960)?
Thanks, Patricia Conroy----- Original Message -----
From: "Dolores Nichols" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:43 PM
Subject: Addition to Ebay List> Hi Again!
>
>         Sorry to be back so soon but I found this after sending the last
> email.
>
>         1486409612 - English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians
>                         Cecil Sharp 1960 edition
>
>                                 Dolores
>
> --
> Dolores Nichols                 |
> D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
> Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>         --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?
>

On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 08:14:28AM -0800, Patricia Lee Conroy wrote:
>
> Dolores, what is the price of Sharp's English Folk Songs from the Southern
> Appalachians (1960)?
> Thanks, Patricia ConroyPatricia,        The copy of Sharp's English Folk Songs from the Southern
Appalachians is currently at $12.50 with 2 bids and closes on Nov. 25.
It is hard to predict what will happen to the price. Most of these
folklore books don't get a lot of bids and this is the Thanksgiving
weekend so that may also keep the price down.                Good luck if you decide to bid on it!                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Oh, the E-RI-E was a-risin'
The gin was getting low
I scarcely think we'll get a little drink
Till we get to Buffalo-ho-hoNot much dialogue in it but The Erie Canal is, I guess, a narrative ballad.
Does anyone know the origin or have the earliest printed text please?Thanks in advance.All the best,
Dan Milner

Dan:The earliest printed text I have in my library is in Carl Sandburg's
_American Songbag,_ published in 1927 (p. 180).Lomax and Lomax, _American Ballads and Folk Songs_ (1934), pp. 455-474,
has a clutch of "Erie Canal" songs, including one variant said to be sung
at the Alhambra Varieties in Buffalo, NY, in the eighteen eighties, and
another, taken from the "Negro Foreget-Me-Not Songster" (Cincinnati:
Bratton and Barnard, 1848) on pp. 471, which has two of the verses
in the "Erie Canal" in Sandburg.EdOn Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Dan Milner wrote:> Oh, the E-RI-E was a-risin'
> The gin was getting low
> I scarcely think we'll get a little drink
> Till we get to Buffalo-ho-ho
>
> Not much dialogue in it but The Erie Canal is, I guess, a narrative ballad.
> Does anyone know the origin or have the earliest printed text please?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> All the best,
> Dan Milner
>

Ed Cray wrote:
>
> Dan:
>
> The earliest printed text I have in my library is in Carl Sandburg's
> _American Songbag,_ published in 1927 (p. 180).
>
> Lomax and Lomax, _American Ballads and Folk Songs_ (1934), pp. 455-474,
> has a clutch of "Erie Canal" songs, including one variant said to be sung
> at the Alhambra Varieties in Buffalo, NY, in the eighteen eighties, and
> another, taken from the "Negro Foreget-Me-Not Songster" (Cincinnati:
> Bratton and Barnard, 1848) on pp. 471, which has two of the verses
> in the "Erie Canal" in Sandburg.
>
> Ed
>
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Dan Milner wrote:
>
> > Oh, the E-RI-E was a-risin'
> > The gin was getting low
> > I scarcely think we'll get a little drink
> > Till we get to Buffalo-ho-ho
> >
> > Not much dialogue in it but The Erie Canal is, I guess, a narrative ballad.
> > Does anyone know the origin or have the earliest printed text please?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > All the best,
> > Dan Milner
> >The storm near Albany on the way (from New York) to Bufflao
may well be the same as that in the comic song "The Raging Canal",
and I suspect "The E-R-I-E" was inspired by that song. The Levy sheet
music collection has copies of "The Raging Canal" of 1844.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep at it; muddling through always works.

On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 01:05:40 -0500, Dan Milner wrote:>Not much dialogue in it but The Erie Canal is, I guess, a narrative ballad.
>Does anyone know the origin or have the earliest printed text please?
>
I suspect that this, like many canal songs, has an elderly but
never-printed bawdy side.  Lomax (see Ed's post) seems to say just that.
While you're looking, you may wish to also check for the non-parlor
versions.Dyer-Bennet notes he actually collected the following in Portland, Maine
and later heard Burl Ives sing a nearly identical version.As sung by Richard Dyer-Bennett on _1601_, R D-B Records, 1962.             The Eer-i-e Canal        We were forty miles from Albany
        Forget it I never shall;
        What a hell-of-a storm we had one night
        On the Eer-i-e Canal.        cho:    O the Eer-i-e was a-rising
                And the gin was a-getting low.
                And I scarcely think we'll get a drink
                'Till we get to Buffalo-o-o
                'Till we get to Buffalo.        The captain, he come up on deck
        With a spy-glass in his hand;
        But the fog, it was so fuckin' thick
        That he could not see the land.        Our cook, she was a grand old gal,
        She wore a ragged dress;
        We h'isted her upon a pole
        As a signal of distress.        The captain, he got married,
        And the cook was tossed in jail,
        And I'm the only son-of-a-bitch
        That's left to tell the tale.The Erie Canal opened from Lake Erie to the Hudson River on Oct. 10, 1825
so that's your earliest possible date.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
                        Boycott South Carolina!
        http://www.naacp.org/news/releases/confederateflag011201.shtml

Since we've been talking about reprinted books, I thought I'd mention
that Thomas D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy has been reprinted by
the Higginson Book Company of Salem MA
<http://www.higginsonbooks.com/> and can be ordered from them in a
nice 3-volume hardbound set for about $225, I think. The book is not
yet listed on their website, which deals mostly with genealogical
reprints, but it is available.John Roberts.

On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:31:41PM -0500, John Roberts wrote:> Since we've been talking about reprinted books, I thought I'd mention
> that Thomas D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy has been reprinted by
> the Higginson Book Company of Salem MA
> <http://www.higginsonbooks.com/> and can be ordered from them in a
> nice 3-volume hardbound set for about $225, I think. The book is not
> yet listed on their website, which deals mostly with genealogical
> reprints, but it is available.        Hmm ... I wonder which version they chose to reprint.  We have
a very old reprint, which I understand left out some of the more
"interesting" songs which were in the original.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I do believe it was taken from the Folklore Associates reprint of
about 1960 (?)  though I may well be wrong on this.John.>On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:31:41PM -0500, John Roberts wrote:
>
>> Since we've been talking about reprinted books, I thought I'd mention
>> that Thomas D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy has been reprinted by
>> the Higginson Book Company of Salem MA
>> <http://www.higginsonbooks.com/> and can be ordered from them in a
>> nice 3-volume hardbound set for about $225, I think. The book is not
>> yet listed on their website, which deals mostly with genealogical
>> reprints, but it is available.
>
>        Hmm ... I wonder which version they chose to reprint.  We have
>a very old reprint, which I understand left out some of the more
>"interesting" songs which were in the original.
>
>        Enjoy,
>                DoN.
>
>--
> Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
>        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
>           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

John and Others:This is interesting.  Ken Goldstein in 1959 reprinted _Pills_ in three
volumes.  I wonder just how many copies he sold, and how many Higginson
has run.EdOn Tue, 20 Nov 2001, John Roberts wrote:> Since we've been talking about reprinted books, I thought I'd mention
> that Thomas D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy has been reprinted by
> the Higginson Book Company of Salem MA
> <http://www.higginsonbooks.com/> and can be ordered from them in a
> nice 3-volume hardbound set for about $225, I think. The book is not
> yet listed on their website, which deals mostly with genealogical
> reprints, but it is available.
>
> John Roberts.
>

Yes Ed, I think that's the one they used. Apparently reprinters can't
copyright the book, only new material such as an introduction, so
they could use it to base theirs on. (So I was a year off...).I believe the current edition is "print on demand." I could find out
all the details if you really wanted to know. I made the original
suggestion to a fiddling friend who works there, as it was a book I'd
lusted after for some time. It was close enough to their main
genealogy/history theme for them to do it, especially as one of their
employees is a musician specializing music of the  Colonial period.John.>John and Others:
>
>This is interesting.  Ken Goldstein in 1959 reprinted _Pills_ in three
>volumes.  I wonder just how many copies he sold, and how many Higginson
>has run.
>
>Ed
>
>
>On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, John Roberts wrote:
>
>> Since we've been talking about reprinted books, I thought I'd mention
>> that Thomas D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy has been reprinted by
>> the Higginson Book Company of Salem MA
>> <http://www.higginsonbooks.com/> and can be ordered from them in a
>> nice 3-volume hardbound set for about $225, I think. The book is not
>> yet listed on their website, which deals mostly with genealogical
>> reprints, but it is available.
>>
>> John Roberts.
>>

John noted that the Pills was available "on demand."  I've noticed quite a
few reprints of scarce old ballad books are being offered by one outfit
called, I believe, "Books on Demand."  They have access to a copyable copy
and reprint it, dog-eared and all, as requested.  The prices are rather high
(the few I noted were in the couple hundred $ range).
Norm Cohen> Yes Ed, I think that's the one they used. Apparently reprinters can't
> copyright the book, only new material such as an introduction, so
> they could use it to base theirs on. (So I was a year off...).
>
> I believe the current edition is "print on demand." I could find out
> all the details if you really wanted to know. I made the original
> suggestion to a fiddling friend who works there, as it was a book I'd
> lusted after for some time. It was close enough to their main
> genealogy/history theme for them to do it, especially as one of their
> employees is a musician specializing music of the  Colonial period.
>
> John.
> >>

CRASS COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCEMENT TO FOLLOW:If you're not familiar with Topic's monumental "Voice of the People" set
of CDs, it consists of twenty (20!) CDs of field recordings collected by
Peter Kennedy. It's probably THE most impressive collection of its type
ever assembled, with artists that include : Sarah Makem, Geoff Ling,
Mary Anne Haynes, Tommy McGarth, Pop Maynard, Willie Clancy, Jimmy
McBeath, Paddy Tunney, Harry Cox, Rose Murphy, Joe Heanny Belle Stewart,
Phil Tanners, Eddie Butcher, Turp Brown, Margaret Barry, Walter Pardon,
Martin Gorman, Joseph Taylor, Jimmy McBeath, Micho Russell, Jeannie
Robertson. Cyril Pocher, Tom Willet, Johnny Doughty, John Rae, Sam
Larner, Lizzie Higgins, Turp Brown, George Ling, Walter Pardon, Frank
Verrill, Harry Upton, Micho Russell, Bob Hart, Bob Roberts, Willie
Scott, Fred Jordon, Packie Manus, Byrne, Liz Jefferies, Stanley
Robertson, Geordie Hannah, John McDonald, Ben Butcher, Freda Palmer,
John Reilly, Phoebe Smith, Enos White, Scan Tester, Eddie Butchers,
Michael Coleman, Sarah Anne O'Neill, Paddy Breen, Davie Stewart, Jinky
Wells, Tom Lennihan, Jimmy Nights, Bob Cann, Maggy Murphy, Bampton
Morris, Charlie Wills, Sheila Stewart, Jasper Smith, May Bradley, Percy
Brown, Oscar Woods, Stephen Baldwin, Walter Bulwer, Font Whatling, Fred
Whiting, Sarah Makem, Amy Birch, Wiggie Smith, George Spicer etc. etc.These are the people that the likes of Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd (and
indirectly almost every later British and Irish singer) learned their
material from. The CDs are well remastered,  typically have 20-25 tracks
each, come with lavish notes and are organized by subject material:TSCD651 COME LET US BUY THE LICENCE 'Songs of courtship &
marriage'TSCD652 MY SHIP SHALL SAIL THE OCEAN 'Songs of tempest &
sea battles, sailor lads & fishermen'TSCD653 O'ER HIS GRAVE THE GRASS GREW GREEN 'Tragic Ballads'TSCD654 FAREWELL, MY OWN NATIVE LAND 'Songs of exile &
emigration'TSCD655 COME ALL MY LADS THAT FOLLOW THE PLOUGH 'The life of
rural working men & women'TSCD656 TONIGHT I'LL MAKE YOU MY BRIDE 'Ballads of true &
false lovers'TSCD657 FIRST I'M GOING TO SING YOU A DITTY 'Rural fun &
frolics'TSCD658 A STORY I'M JUST ABOUT TO TELL 'Local events &
national issues'TSCD659 RIG-A-JIG-JIG 'Dance music of the south of England'TSCD660 WHO'S THAT AT MY BED WINDOW? 'Songs of love &
amorous encounters'TSCD661 MY FATHER'S THE KING OF THE GYPSIES 'Music of English
& Welsh travellers & gypsies'TSCD662 WE'VE RECEIVED ORDERS TO SAIL 'Jackie Tar at sea & on
shore'TSCD663 THEY ORDERED THEIR PINTS OF BEER AND BOTTLES OF SHERRY
'The joys & curse of drink'TSCD664 TROUBLES THEY ARE BUT FEW 'Dance tunes & ditties'TSCD665 AS ME AND MY LOVE SAT COURTING 'Songs of love,
courtship & marriage'TSCD666 YOU LAZY LOT OF BONE-SHAKERS 'Songs & dance tunes of
Seasonal events'TSCD667 IT FELL ON A DAY A BONNY SUMMER DAY 'Ballads'TSCD668 TO CATCH A FINE BUCK WAS MY DELIGHT 'Songs of hunting
& poaching'TSCD669 RANTING & REELING 'Dance music of the north of England'TSCD670 THERE IS A MAN UPON THE FARM 'Working men & women in
song'CAMSCO has been selling these CDs for $12.98 each, and, IMO, they've
been a bargain. We're now able (for a very limited time) to offer the
complete set at a price of $200 (less than I have been paying
wholesale.) It would make a spectacular Christmas present for anyone who
loves traditional music.Please let me know if you're interested

Don't credit Peter Kennedy with recording all of them- the list of recording
credits is a "who's who" of a generation or more of British and Irish
collectors and researchers.Ruairidh Greig----- Original Message -----
From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 6:13 PM
Subject: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs> CRASS COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCEMENT TO FOLLOW:
>
>
>
> If you're not familiar with Topic's monumental "Voice of the People" set
> of CDs, it consists of twenty (20!) CDs of field recordings collected by
> Peter Kennedy. It's probably THE most impressive collection of its type
> ever assembled, with artists that include : Sarah Makem, Geoff Ling,
> Mary Anne Haynes, Tommy McGarth, Pop Maynard, Willie Clancy, Jimmy
> McBeath, Paddy Tunney, Harry Cox, Rose Murphy, Joe Heanny Belle Stewart,
> Phil Tanners, Eddie Butcher, Turp Brown, Margaret Barry, Walter Pardon,
> Martin Gorman, Joseph Taylor, Jimmy McBeath, Micho Russell, Jeannie
> Robertson. Cyril Pocher, Tom Willet, Johnny Doughty, John Rae, Sam
> Larner, Lizzie Higgins, Turp Brown, George Ling, Walter Pardon, Frank
> Verrill, Harry Upton, Micho Russell, Bob Hart, Bob Roberts, Willie
> Scott, Fred Jordon, Packie Manus, Byrne, Liz Jefferies, Stanley
> Robertson, Geordie Hannah, John McDonald, Ben Butcher, Freda Palmer,
> John Reilly, Phoebe Smith, Enos White, Scan Tester, Eddie Butchers,
> Michael Coleman, Sarah Anne O'Neill, Paddy Breen, Davie Stewart, Jinky
> Wells, Tom Lennihan, Jimmy Nights, Bob Cann, Maggy Murphy, Bampton
> Morris, Charlie Wills, Sheila Stewart, Jasper Smith, May Bradley, Percy
> Brown, Oscar Woods, Stephen Baldwin, Walter Bulwer, Font Whatling, Fred
> Whiting, Sarah Makem, Amy Birch, Wiggie Smith, George Spicer etc. etc.
>
> These are the people that the likes of Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd (and
> indirectly almost every later British and Irish singer) learned their
> material from. The CDs are well remastered,  typically have 20-25 tracks
> each, come with lavish notes and are organized by subject material:
>
> TSCD651 COME LET US BUY THE LICENCE 'Songs of courtship &
> marriage'
>
> TSCD652 MY SHIP SHALL SAIL THE OCEAN 'Songs of tempest &
> sea battles, sailor lads & fishermen'
>
> TSCD653 O'ER HIS GRAVE THE GRASS GREW GREEN 'Tragic Ballads'
>
> TSCD654 FAREWELL, MY OWN NATIVE LAND 'Songs of exile &
> emigration'
>
> TSCD655 COME ALL MY LADS THAT FOLLOW THE PLOUGH 'The life of
> rural working men & women'
>
> TSCD656 TONIGHT I'LL MAKE YOU MY BRIDE 'Ballads of true &
> false lovers'
>
> TSCD657 FIRST I'M GOING TO SING YOU A DITTY 'Rural fun &
> frolics'
>
> TSCD658 A STORY I'M JUST ABOUT TO TELL 'Local events &
> national issues'
>
> TSCD659 RIG-A-JIG-JIG 'Dance music of the south of England'
>
> TSCD660 WHO'S THAT AT MY BED WINDOW? 'Songs of love &
> amorous encounters'
>
> TSCD661 MY FATHER'S THE KING OF THE GYPSIES 'Music of English
> & Welsh travellers & gypsies'
>
> TSCD662 WE'VE RECEIVED ORDERS TO SAIL 'Jackie Tar at sea & on
> shore'
>
> TSCD663 THEY ORDERED THEIR PINTS OF BEER AND BOTTLES OF SHERRY
> 'The joys & curse of drink'
>
> TSCD664 TROUBLES THEY ARE BUT FEW 'Dance tunes & ditties'
>
> TSCD665 AS ME AND MY LOVE SAT COURTING 'Songs of love,
> courtship & marriage'
>
> TSCD666 YOU LAZY LOT OF BONE-SHAKERS 'Songs & dance tunes of
> Seasonal events'
>
> TSCD667 IT FELL ON A DAY A BONNY SUMMER DAY 'Ballads'
>
> TSCD668 TO CATCH A FINE BUCK WAS MY DELIGHT 'Songs of hunting
> & poaching'
>
> TSCD669 RANTING & REELING 'Dance music of the north of England'
>
> TSCD670 THERE IS A MAN UPON THE FARM 'Working men & women in
> song'
>
>
> CAMSCO has been selling these CDs for $12.98 each, and, IMO, they've
> been a bargain. We're now able (for a very limited time) to offer the
> complete set at a price of $200 (less than I have been paying
> wholesale.) It would make a spectacular Christmas present for anyone who
> loves traditional music.
>
> Please let me know if you're interested
>

This benighted Canadian presumes the $300 is in US dollars? (c. $500 Can).
Jon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ruairidh Greig" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs> Don't credit Peter Kennedy with recording all of them- the list of
recording
> credits is a "who's who" of a generation or more of British and Irish
> collectors and researchers.
>
> Ruairidh Greig
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 6:13 PM
> Subject: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs
>
>
> > CRASS COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCEMENT TO FOLLOW:
> >
> >
> >
> > If you're not familiar with Topic's monumental "Voice of the People" set
> > of CDs, it consists of twenty (20!) CDs of field recordings collected by
> > Peter Kennedy. It's probably THE most impressive collection of its type
> > ever assembled, with artists that include : Sarah Makem, Geoff Ling,
> > Mary Anne Haynes, Tommy McGarth, Pop Maynard, Willie Clancy, Jimmy
> > McBeath, Paddy Tunney, Harry Cox, Rose Murphy, Joe Heanny Belle Stewart,
> > Phil Tanners, Eddie Butcher, Turp Brown, Margaret Barry, Walter Pardon,
> > Martin Gorman, Joseph Taylor, Jimmy McBeath, Micho Russell, Jeannie
> > Robertson. Cyril Pocher, Tom Willet, Johnny Doughty, John Rae, Sam
> > Larner, Lizzie Higgins, Turp Brown, George Ling, Walter Pardon, Frank
> > Verrill, Harry Upton, Micho Russell, Bob Hart, Bob Roberts, Willie
> > Scott, Fred Jordon, Packie Manus, Byrne, Liz Jefferies, Stanley
> > Robertson, Geordie Hannah, John McDonald, Ben Butcher, Freda Palmer,
> > John Reilly, Phoebe Smith, Enos White, Scan Tester, Eddie Butchers,
> > Michael Coleman, Sarah Anne O'Neill, Paddy Breen, Davie Stewart, Jinky
> > Wells, Tom Lennihan, Jimmy Nights, Bob Cann, Maggy Murphy, Bampton
> > Morris, Charlie Wills, Sheila Stewart, Jasper Smith, May Bradley, Percy
> > Brown, Oscar Woods, Stephen Baldwin, Walter Bulwer, Font Whatling, Fred
> > Whiting, Sarah Makem, Amy Birch, Wiggie Smith, George Spicer etc. etc.
> >
> > These are the people that the likes of Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd (and
> > indirectly almost every later British and Irish singer) learned their
> > material from. The CDs are well remastered,  typically have 20-25 tracks
> > each, come with lavish notes and are organized by subject material:
> >
> > TSCD651 COME LET US BUY THE LICENCE 'Songs of courtship &
> > marriage'
> >
> > TSCD652 MY SHIP SHALL SAIL THE OCEAN 'Songs of tempest &
> > sea battles, sailor lads & fishermen'
> >
> > TSCD653 O'ER HIS GRAVE THE GRASS GREW GREEN 'Tragic Ballads'
> >
> > TSCD654 FAREWELL, MY OWN NATIVE LAND 'Songs of exile &
> > emigration'
> >
> > TSCD655 COME ALL MY LADS THAT FOLLOW THE PLOUGH 'The life of
> > rural working men & women'
> >
> > TSCD656 TONIGHT I'LL MAKE YOU MY BRIDE 'Ballads of true &
> > false lovers'
> >
> > TSCD657 FIRST I'M GOING TO SING YOU A DITTY 'Rural fun &
> > frolics'
> >
> > TSCD658 A STORY I'M JUST ABOUT TO TELL 'Local events &
> > national issues'
> >
> > TSCD659 RIG-A-JIG-JIG 'Dance music of the south of England'
> >
> > TSCD660 WHO'S THAT AT MY BED WINDOW? 'Songs of love &
> > amorous encounters'
> >
> > TSCD661 MY FATHER'S THE KING OF THE GYPSIES 'Music of English
> > & Welsh travellers & gypsies'
> >
> > TSCD662 WE'VE RECEIVED ORDERS TO SAIL 'Jackie Tar at sea & on
> > shore'
> >
> > TSCD663 THEY ORDERED THEIR PINTS OF BEER AND BOTTLES OF SHERRY
> > 'The joys & curse of drink'
> >
> > TSCD664 TROUBLES THEY ARE BUT FEW 'Dance tunes & ditties'
> >
> > TSCD665 AS ME AND MY LOVE SAT COURTING 'Songs of love,
> > courtship & marriage'
> >
> > TSCD666 YOU LAZY LOT OF BONE-SHAKERS 'Songs & dance tunes of
> > Seasonal events'
> >
> > TSCD667 IT FELL ON A DAY A BONNY SUMMER DAY 'Ballads'
> >
> > TSCD668 TO CATCH A FINE BUCK WAS MY DELIGHT 'Songs of hunting
> > & poaching'
> >
> > TSCD669 RANTING & REELING 'Dance music of the north of England'
> >
> > TSCD670 THERE IS A MAN UPON THE FARM 'Working men & women in
> > song'
> >
> >
> > CAMSCO has been selling these CDs for $12.98 each, and, IMO, they've
> > been a bargain. We're now able (for a very limited time) to offer the
> > complete set at a price of $200 (less than I have been paying
> > wholesale.) It would make a spectacular Christmas present for anyone who
> > loves traditional music.
> >
> > Please let me know if you're interested
> >
>

Read more carefully Jon! (Read beday and not beknight, perhaps).
That's $200. And a deal I would jump at, myself, if I didn't have
them already.JR>This benighted Canadian presumes the $300 is in US dollars? (c. $500 Can).
>Jon>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ruairidh Greig" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:21 AM
>Subject: Re: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs
>
>
>> Don't credit Peter Kennedy with recording all of them- the list of
>recording
>> credits is a "who's who" of a generation or more of British and Irish
>> collectors and researchers.
>>
>> Ruairidh Greig
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
>> To: <[unmask]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 6:13 PM
>> Subject: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs
>>
>>
>> > CRASS COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCEMENT TO FOLLOW:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > If you're not familiar with Topic's monumental "Voice of the People" set
>> > of CDs, it consists of twenty (20!) CDs of field recordings collected by
>> > Peter Kennedy. It's probably THE most impressive collection of its type
>> > ever assembled, with artists that include : Sarah Makem, Geoff Ling,
>> > Mary Anne Haynes, Tommy McGarth, Pop Maynard, Willie Clancy, Jimmy
>> > McBeath, Paddy Tunney, Harry Cox, Rose Murphy, Joe Heanny Belle Stewart,
>> > Phil Tanners, Eddie Butcher, Turp Brown, Margaret Barry, Walter Pardon,
>> > Martin Gorman, Joseph Taylor, Jimmy McBeath, Micho Russell, Jeannie
>> > Robertson. Cyril Pocher, Tom Willet, Johnny Doughty, John Rae, Sam
>> > Larner, Lizzie Higgins, Turp Brown, George Ling, Walter Pardon, Frank
>> > Verrill, Harry Upton, Micho Russell, Bob Hart, Bob Roberts, Willie
>> > Scott, Fred Jordon, Packie Manus, Byrne, Liz Jefferies, Stanley
>> > Robertson, Geordie Hannah, John McDonald, Ben Butcher, Freda Palmer,
>> > John Reilly, Phoebe Smith, Enos White, Scan Tester, Eddie Butchers,
>> > Michael Coleman, Sarah Anne O'Neill, Paddy Breen, Davie Stewart, Jinky
>> > Wells, Tom Lennihan, Jimmy Nights, Bob Cann, Maggy Murphy, Bampton
>> > Morris, Charlie Wills, Sheila Stewart, Jasper Smith, May Bradley, Percy
>> > Brown, Oscar Woods, Stephen Baldwin, Walter Bulwer, Font Whatling, Fred
>> > Whiting, Sarah Makem, Amy Birch, Wiggie Smith, George Spicer etc. etc.
>> >
>> > These are the people that the likes of Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd (and
>> > indirectly almost every later British and Irish singer) learned their
>> > material from. The CDs are well remastered,  typically have 20-25 tracks
>> > each, come with lavish notes and are organized by subject material:
>> >
>> > TSCD651 COME LET US BUY THE LICENCE 'Songs of courtship &
>> > marriage'
>> >
>> > TSCD652 MY SHIP SHALL SAIL THE OCEAN 'Songs of tempest &
>> > sea battles, sailor lads & fishermen'
>> >
>> > TSCD653 O'ER HIS GRAVE THE GRASS GREW GREEN 'Tragic Ballads'
>> >
>> > TSCD654 FAREWELL, MY OWN NATIVE LAND 'Songs of exile &
>> > emigration'
>> >
>> > TSCD655 COME ALL MY LADS THAT FOLLOW THE PLOUGH 'The life of
>> > rural working men & women'
>> >
>> > TSCD656 TONIGHT I'LL MAKE YOU MY BRIDE 'Ballads of true &
>> > false lovers'
>> >
>> > TSCD657 FIRST I'M GOING TO SING YOU A DITTY 'Rural fun &
>> > frolics'
>> >
>> > TSCD658 A STORY I'M JUST ABOUT TO TELL 'Local events &
>> > national issues'
>> >
>> > TSCD659 RIG-A-JIG-JIG 'Dance music of the south of England'
>> >
>> > TSCD660 WHO'S THAT AT MY BED WINDOW? 'Songs of love &
>> > amorous encounters'
>> >
>> > TSCD661 MY FATHER'S THE KING OF THE GYPSIES 'Music of English
>> > & Welsh travellers & gypsies'
>> >
>> > TSCD662 WE'VE RECEIVED ORDERS TO SAIL 'Jackie Tar at sea & on
>> > shore'
>> >
>> > TSCD663 THEY ORDERED THEIR PINTS OF BEER AND BOTTLES OF SHERRY
>> > 'The joys & curse of drink'
>> >
>> > TSCD664 TROUBLES THEY ARE BUT FEW 'Dance tunes & ditties'
>> >
>> > TSCD665 AS ME AND MY LOVE SAT COURTING 'Songs of love,
>> > courtship & marriage'
>> >
>> > TSCD666 YOU LAZY LOT OF BONE-SHAKERS 'Songs & dance tunes of
>> > Seasonal events'
>> >
>> > TSCD667 IT FELL ON A DAY A BONNY SUMMER DAY 'Ballads'
>> >
>> > TSCD668 TO CATCH A FINE BUCK WAS MY DELIGHT 'Songs of hunting
>> > & poaching'
>> >
>> > TSCD669 RANTING & REELING 'Dance music of the north of England'
>> >
>> > TSCD670 THERE IS A MAN UPON THE FARM 'Working men & women in
>> > song'
>> >
>> >
>> > CAMSCO has been selling these CDs for $12.98 each, and, IMO, they've
>> > been a bargain. We're now able (for a very limited time) to offer the
>> > complete set at a price of $200 (less than I have been paying
>> > wholesale.) It would make a spectacular Christmas present for anyone who
>> > loves traditional music.
>> >
>> > Please let me know if you're interested
>> >
>>

Hi Dick!I was not aware that you have been offering individual items from The Voice
of the People for $12.98.  We have a few of the CDs already and I will get a
few more from you at that price.Without differing that VOTP is a monumental collection and as much as I
respect your opinion and good work, I have to differ with the bracketed part
of your statement, "These are the people that the likes of Ewan MacColl and
Bert Lloyd (and indirectly almost every later British and Irish singer)
learned their material from."  With regard to Ireland, there is a vibrant
song tradition in many parts of the country and many people with anywhere
from a few to a truckload of songs that were learned only from people only
in their own locality plus other people who have combed libraries and every
other possible source for "new" old songs.  Certainly, many well known
singers have specialized in songs from the repertoires of Joe Heaney, Paddy
Tunney or Geordie Hanna, for example, but the output of commercial
recordings does not accurately reflect the scene at large.  There's a little
too much paint on your brush!Please send me an e-mail about your movements in the near future and I'll
arrange to get a few VOTP CDs from you.  Thanks for letting us know.All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:13 PM
Subject: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs> CRASS COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCEMENT TO FOLLOW:
>
>
>
> If you're not familiar with Topic's monumental "Voice of the People" set
> of CDs, it consists of twenty (20!) CDs of field recordings collected by
> Peter Kennedy. It's probably THE most impressive collection of its type
> ever assembled, with artists that include : Sarah Makem, Geoff Ling,
> Mary Anne Haynes, Tommy McGarth, Pop Maynard, Willie Clancy, Jimmy
> McBeath, Paddy Tunney, Harry Cox, Rose Murphy, Joe Heanny Belle Stewart,
> Phil Tanners, Eddie Butcher, Turp Brown, Margaret Barry, Walter Pardon,
> Martin Gorman, Joseph Taylor, Jimmy McBeath, Micho Russell, Jeannie
> Robertson. Cyril Pocher, Tom Willet, Johnny Doughty, John Rae, Sam
> Larner, Lizzie Higgins, Turp Brown, George Ling, Walter Pardon, Frank
> Verrill, Harry Upton, Micho Russell, Bob Hart, Bob Roberts, Willie
> Scott, Fred Jordon, Packie Manus, Byrne, Liz Jefferies, Stanley
> Robertson, Geordie Hannah, John McDonald, Ben Butcher, Freda Palmer,
> John Reilly, Phoebe Smith, Enos White, Scan Tester, Eddie Butchers,
> Michael Coleman, Sarah Anne O'Neill, Paddy Breen, Davie Stewart, Jinky
> Wells, Tom Lennihan, Jimmy Nights, Bob Cann, Maggy Murphy, Bampton
> Morris, Charlie Wills, Sheila Stewart, Jasper Smith, May Bradley, Percy
> Brown, Oscar Woods, Stephen Baldwin, Walter Bulwer, Font Whatling, Fred
> Whiting, Sarah Makem, Amy Birch, Wiggie Smith, George Spicer etc. etc.
>
> These are the people that the likes of Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd (and
> indirectly almost every later British and Irish singer) learned their
> material from. The CDs are well remastered,  typically have 20-25 tracks
> each, come with lavish notes and are organized by subject material:
>
> TSCD651 COME LET US BUY THE LICENCE 'Songs of courtship &
> marriage'
>
> TSCD652 MY SHIP SHALL SAIL THE OCEAN 'Songs of tempest &
> sea battles, sailor lads & fishermen'
>
> TSCD653 O'ER HIS GRAVE THE GRASS GREW GREEN 'Tragic Ballads'
>
> TSCD654 FAREWELL, MY OWN NATIVE LAND 'Songs of exile &
> emigration'
>
> TSCD655 COME ALL MY LADS THAT FOLLOW THE PLOUGH 'The life of
> rural working men & women'
>
> TSCD656 TONIGHT I'LL MAKE YOU MY BRIDE 'Ballads of true &
> false lovers'
>
> TSCD657 FIRST I'M GOING TO SING YOU A DITTY 'Rural fun &
> frolics'
>
> TSCD658 A STORY I'M JUST ABOUT TO TELL 'Local events &
> national issues'
>
> TSCD659 RIG-A-JIG-JIG 'Dance music of the south of England'
>
> TSCD660 WHO'S THAT AT MY BED WINDOW? 'Songs of love &
> amorous encounters'
>
> TSCD661 MY FATHER'S THE KING OF THE GYPSIES 'Music of English
> & Welsh travellers & gypsies'
>
> TSCD662 WE'VE RECEIVED ORDERS TO SAIL 'Jackie Tar at sea & on
> shore'
>
> TSCD663 THEY ORDERED THEIR PINTS OF BEER AND BOTTLES OF SHERRY
> 'The joys & curse of drink'
>
> TSCD664 TROUBLES THEY ARE BUT FEW 'Dance tunes & ditties'
>
> TSCD665 AS ME AND MY LOVE SAT COURTING 'Songs of love,
> courtship & marriage'
>
> TSCD666 YOU LAZY LOT OF BONE-SHAKERS 'Songs & dance tunes of
> Seasonal events'
>
> TSCD667 IT FELL ON A DAY A BONNY SUMMER DAY 'Ballads'
>
> TSCD668 TO CATCH A FINE BUCK WAS MY DELIGHT 'Songs of hunting
> & poaching'
>
> TSCD669 RANTING & REELING 'Dance music of the north of England'
>
> TSCD670 THERE IS A MAN UPON THE FARM 'Working men & women in
> song'
>
>
> CAMSCO has been selling these CDs for $12.98 each, and, IMO, they've
> been a bargain. We're now able (for a very limited time) to offer the
> complete set at a price of $200 (less than I have been paying
> wholesale.) It would make a spectacular Christmas present for anyone who
> loves traditional music.
>
> Please let me know if you're interested

Caroline and I both jumped, she by phone as a surprise present for me,
me by e-pistle as a surprise present for her. Fortunately, Greenhaus
knew we really needed only one set! Nice to deal with a dealer who is
also a good friend.
        Sandy (Paton, that is -- not Ives -- "Hello, Sandy!")John Roberts wrote:
>
> Read more carefully Jon! (Read beday and not beknight, perhaps).
> That's $200. And a deal I would jump at, myself, if I didn't have
> them already.
>

Dick:Yours is a good offer, but dog in the manger, I wonder if the cuts are the
full songs or edited/truncated versions.  My question is based on a
passing comment by someone on this list a couple of weeks ago, a comment
suggesting that Kennedy had edited the tapes for release.Ed

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

There are extensive reviews of this set on the Musical Traditions page at:
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/(Oops - I just looked there and for some reason I get a "not found"
message - I should check)Anyway, it has very little to do with Peter Kennedy, much more to do
with Topic Records' archives, and, by association, with A.L. Lloyd.
Much of the material comes from out of print Topic LP releases of
traditional singers. The balance is mostly from unpublished field
recordings, selected by the compiler, Reg Hall, to fill in the gaps
in his conception of what the set was going to be. It is definitely a
one-man work, rather than an overview of the British tradition by
committee, though of course others gave him input.I don't know offhand if they used _any_ of Kennedy's recordings. I
recall they wanted to, for the Coppers, I yhink, as an example, but
there was some issue with him over copyright, and in the end I think
they may have decided to pursue other avenues.The issues that have come up latterly regarding Peter Kennedy's
collages were concerning the Rounder releases of the Alan Lomax
material, the English sections of which (and much of the Irish and
Scots) are being edited by him. For example, at least three the
Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
of bits of performances. Another example in the England volume of the
Columbia World Library of Primitive Music (or something like that)
where the rationale was to keep the volume as it stood as reflecting
the tight programming of the original. There are in-depth reviews of
all these, too, on the Musical Traditions pages. If I felt generous,
I would put down his editing, or lack of it, to simple laziness, but
as I get older I get less open-handed.John Roberts.>Dick:
>
>Yours is a good offer, but dog in the manger, I wonder if the cuts are the
>full songs or edited/truncated versions.  My question is based on a
>passing comment by someone on this list a couple of weeks ago, a comment
>suggesting that Kennedy had edited the tapes for release.
>
>Ed

For information
Peter Kennedy had nothing at all to do with the Voice of the People CDs -
they were produced and edited by Reg Hall, whose editorial standards are
well known.
There are no cut-down or cobbled together tracks.
Steve Roud----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 8:40 PM
Subject: Re: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs> Dick:
>
> Yours is a good offer, but dog in the manger, I wonder if the cuts are the
> full songs or edited/truncated versions.  My question is based on a
> passing comment by someone on this list a couple of weeks ago, a comment
> suggesting that Kennedy had edited the tapes for release.
>
> Ed

That's $200 (US), Jon. Doesn't help the US/Canada exchange rate any, but it does
bring down the total.Jon Bartlett wrote:> This benighted Canadian presumes the $300 is in US dollars? (c. $500 Can).
> Jon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ruairidh Greig" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs
>
> > Don't credit Peter Kennedy with recording all of them- the list of
> recording
> > credits is a "who's who" of a generation or more of British and Irish
> > collectors and researchers.
> >
> > Ruairidh Greig
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
> > To: <[unmask]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 6:13 PM
> > Subject: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs
> >
> >
> > > CRASS COMMERCIAL ANNOUNCEMENT TO FOLLOW:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If you're not familiar with Topic's monumental "Voice of the People" set
> > > of CDs, it consists of twenty (20!) CDs of field recordings collected by
> > > Peter Kennedy. It's probably THE most impressive collection of its type
> > > ever assembled, with artists that include : Sarah Makem, Geoff Ling,
> > > Mary Anne Haynes, Tommy McGarth, Pop Maynard, Willie Clancy, Jimmy
> > > McBeath, Paddy Tunney, Harry Cox, Rose Murphy, Joe Heanny Belle Stewart,
> > > Phil Tanners, Eddie Butcher, Turp Brown, Margaret Barry, Walter Pardon,
> > > Martin Gorman, Joseph Taylor, Jimmy McBeath, Micho Russell, Jeannie
> > > Robertson. Cyril Pocher, Tom Willet, Johnny Doughty, John Rae, Sam
> > > Larner, Lizzie Higgins, Turp Brown, George Ling, Walter Pardon, Frank
> > > Verrill, Harry Upton, Micho Russell, Bob Hart, Bob Roberts, Willie
> > > Scott, Fred Jordon, Packie Manus, Byrne, Liz Jefferies, Stanley
> > > Robertson, Geordie Hannah, John McDonald, Ben Butcher, Freda Palmer,
> > > John Reilly, Phoebe Smith, Enos White, Scan Tester, Eddie Butchers,
> > > Michael Coleman, Sarah Anne O'Neill, Paddy Breen, Davie Stewart, Jinky
> > > Wells, Tom Lennihan, Jimmy Nights, Bob Cann, Maggy Murphy, Bampton
> > > Morris, Charlie Wills, Sheila Stewart, Jasper Smith, May Bradley, Percy
> > > Brown, Oscar Woods, Stephen Baldwin, Walter Bulwer, Font Whatling, Fred
> > > Whiting, Sarah Makem, Amy Birch, Wiggie Smith, George Spicer etc. etc.
> > >
> > > These are the people that the likes of Ewan MacColl and Bert Lloyd (and
> > > indirectly almost every later British and Irish singer) learned their
> > > material from. The CDs are well remastered,  typically have 20-25 tracks
> > > each, come with lavish notes and are organized by subject material:
> > >
> > > TSCD651 COME LET US BUY THE LICENCE 'Songs of courtship &
> > > marriage'
> > >
> > > TSCD652 MY SHIP SHALL SAIL THE OCEAN 'Songs of tempest &
> > > sea battles, sailor lads & fishermen'
> > >
> > > TSCD653 O'ER HIS GRAVE THE GRASS GREW GREEN 'Tragic Ballads'
> > >
> > > TSCD654 FAREWELL, MY OWN NATIVE LAND 'Songs of exile &
> > > emigration'
> > >
> > > TSCD655 COME ALL MY LADS THAT FOLLOW THE PLOUGH 'The life of
> > > rural working men & women'
> > >
> > > TSCD656 TONIGHT I'LL MAKE YOU MY BRIDE 'Ballads of true &
> > > false lovers'
> > >
> > > TSCD657 FIRST I'M GOING TO SING YOU A DITTY 'Rural fun &
> > > frolics'
> > >
> > > TSCD658 A STORY I'M JUST ABOUT TO TELL 'Local events &
> > > national issues'
> > >
> > > TSCD659 RIG-A-JIG-JIG 'Dance music of the south of England'
> > >
> > > TSCD660 WHO'S THAT AT MY BED WINDOW? 'Songs of love &
> > > amorous encounters'
> > >
> > > TSCD661 MY FATHER'S THE KING OF THE GYPSIES 'Music of English
> > > & Welsh travellers & gypsies'
> > >
> > > TSCD662 WE'VE RECEIVED ORDERS TO SAIL 'Jackie Tar at sea & on
> > > shore'
> > >
> > > TSCD663 THEY ORDERED THEIR PINTS OF BEER AND BOTTLES OF SHERRY
> > > 'The joys & curse of drink'
> > >
> > > TSCD664 TROUBLES THEY ARE BUT FEW 'Dance tunes & ditties'
> > >
> > > TSCD665 AS ME AND MY LOVE SAT COURTING 'Songs of love,
> > > courtship & marriage'
> > >
> > > TSCD666 YOU LAZY LOT OF BONE-SHAKERS 'Songs & dance tunes of
> > > Seasonal events'
> > >
> > > TSCD667 IT FELL ON A DAY A BONNY SUMMER DAY 'Ballads'
> > >
> > > TSCD668 TO CATCH A FINE BUCK WAS MY DELIGHT 'Songs of hunting
> > > & poaching'
> > >
> > > TSCD669 RANTING & REELING 'Dance music of the north of England'
> > >
> > > TSCD670 THERE IS A MAN UPON THE FARM 'Working men & women in
> > > song'
> > >
> > >
> > > CAMSCO has been selling these CDs for $12.98 each, and, IMO, they've
> > > been a bargain. We're now able (for a very limited time) to offer the
> > > complete set at a price of $200 (less than I have been paying
> > > wholesale.) It would make a spectacular Christmas present for anyone who
> > > loves traditional music.
> > >
> > > Please let me know if you're interested
> > >
> >

I haven't  had time to listen to the entire set yet, but everything I've heard
has been complete. The notorious "snippet" recording was the old Caedmon set,
which has been re-released in part by Rounder as Classic Ballads of Britain
and Ireland (v1 and v2 )and Songs of Seduction. In all three of the Topic
releases, additional material has been added to reduce, if not eliminate,
partial versions. I'm sure that the editing was due to time limitations on
LPs---something like the classic blivet problem of putting ten pounds into a
five-pound sack.dickEd Cray wrote:> Dick:
>
> Yours is a good offer, but dog in the manger, I wonder if the cuts are the
> full songs or edited/truncated versions.  My question is based on a
> passing comment by someone on this list a couple of weeks ago, a comment
> suggesting that Kennedy had edited the tapes for release.
>
> Ed

I second John's misgivings on the Rounder "reissues" of the Caedmon series.
I was not so distressed by the medley versions (which I often use for
classroom purposes) but by the fact that some of the tracks on the original
LPs had been deleted entirely from the new production.  The moral is, if you
have the LPs, they will not be superannuated by the Rounder CDs.
Norm Cohen
>
> The issues that have come up latterly regarding Peter Kennedy's
> collages were concerning the Rounder releases of the Alan Lomax
> material, the English sections of which (and much of the Irish and
> Scots) are being edited by him. For example, at least three the
> Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
> including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
> opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
> indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
> of bits of performances. Another example in the England volume of the
> Columbia World Library of Primitive Music (or something like that)
> where the rationale was to keep the volume as it stood as reflecting
> the tight programming of the original. There are in-depth reviews of
> all these, too, on the Musical Traditions pages. If I felt generous,
> I would put down his editing, or lack of it, to simple laziness, but
> as I get older I get less open-handed.
>
> John Roberts.
>
>
>
> >Dick:
> >
> >Yours is a good offer, but dog in the manger, I wonder if the cuts are
the
> >full songs or edited/truncated versions.  My question is based on a
> >passing comment by someone on this list a couple of weeks ago, a comment
> >suggesting that Kennedy had edited the tapes for release.
> >
> >Ed

Norm-
I have no real information about this, but Rounder provided a gap in the
numbering between the second Classic Ballads volune and Songs of Seduction.
Could it be that the missing tracks may resurface (I no longer have my vinyl
copy, so I'm not sure exactly what was on which.dickNorm Cohen wrote:> I second John's misgivings on the Rounder "reissues" of the Caedmon series.
> I was not so distressed by the medley versions (which I often use for
> classroom purposes) but by the fact that some of the tracks on the original
> LPs had been deleted entirely from the new production.  The moral is, if you
> have the LPs, they will not be superannuated by the Rounder CDs.
> Norm Cohen
> >
> > The issues that have come up latterly regarding Peter Kennedy's
> > collages were concerning the Rounder releases of the Alan Lomax
> > material, the English sections of which (and much of the Irish and
> > Scots) are being edited by him. For example, at least three the
> > Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
> > including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
> > opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
> > indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
> > of bits of performances. Another example in the England volume of the
> > Columbia World Library of Primitive Music (or something like that)
> > where the rationale was to keep the volume as it stood as reflecting
> > the tight programming of the original. There are in-depth reviews of
> > all these, too, on the Musical Traditions pages. If I felt generous,
> > I would put down his editing, or lack of it, to simple laziness, but
> > as I get older I get less open-handed.
> >
> > John Roberts.
> >
> >
> >
> > >Dick:
> > >
> > >Yours is a good offer, but dog in the manger, I wonder if the cuts are
> the
> > >full songs or edited/truncated versions.  My question is based on a
> > >passing comment by someone on this list a couple of weeks ago, a comment
> > >suggesting that Kennedy had edited the tapes for release.
> > >
> > >Ed

Hi, folks.  I've been notified that our listserv will be unavailable on
friday, the 23rd, from ten to six, for a system upgrade.  Hope that that
won't mess things up for us all.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

I believe that the main reason Alan Lomax adopted a cut-and-paste approach
was that at the time he was making much of his living (certainly while in
Europe) as a radio presenter of 'folk music'. That's what you did on
documentaries in those days - you talked about the stuff, played a brief
snippet, talked, played another snippet and so on. This was especially
useful if you wanted to compare/contrast different approaches to the same
song, etc. And you only had half-an-hour..To be charitable, as someone else has commented - at the time, there was so
little material availble on record, and little prospect of there being much
more in the future, and the collectors were finding such a wealth of
material that they were under pressure to cram as much as possible into what
little 'space' they had. Remember that this was before the real Revival took
hold and expanded the market.What is a great great pity is that some of the Rounder CDs and some (not all
by any means) of Peter Kennedy's Folktrax issues continue this outdated
approach.To be less charitable: Alan Lomax had the example of his father (John)
before him. Some of John's books are notorious for their cut-and-splice
texts.There is an excellent article in the forthcoming issue of Folk Music Journal
(Vol.8:2, 2002), by E. David Gregory, called 'Lomax in London: the BBC and
the Folk-Song Revival in England'.Incidentally, I helped Reg Hall a bit with the Voice of the People series,
and I can state categorically that no material controlled by Peter Kennedy
was used. Partly because much of his material is already available on his
own Folktrax label. However, a brand new CD from Topic, also edited by Reg
Hall - 'Come Write Me Down', by the Copper Family uses many of PK's
recordings, and makes up for their absence on the VOTP series.
Steve Roud----- Original Message -----
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs> Norm-
> I have no real information about this, but Rounder provided a gap in the
> numbering between the second Classic Ballads volune and Songs of
Seduction.
> Could it be that the missing tracks may resurface (I no longer have my
vinyl
> copy, so I'm not sure exactly what was on which.
>
> dick
>
> Norm Cohen wrote:
>
> > I second John's misgivings on the Rounder "reissues" of the Caedmon
series.
> > I was not so distressed by the medley versions (which I often use for
> > classroom purposes) but by the fact that some of the tracks on the
original
> > LPs had been deleted entirely from the new production.  The moral is, if
you
> > have the LPs, they will not be superannuated by the Rounder CDs.
> > Norm Cohen
> > >
> > > The issues that have come up latterly regarding Peter Kennedy's
> > > collages were concerning the Rounder releases of the Alan Lomax
> > > material, the English sections of which (and much of the Irish and
> > > Scots) are being edited by him. For example, at least three the
> > > Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
> > > including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
> > > opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
> > > indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
> > > of bits of performances. Another example in the England volume of the
> > > Columbia World Library of Primitive Music (or something like that)
> > > where the rationale was to keep the volume as it stood as reflecting
> > > the tight programming of the original. There are in-depth reviews of
> > > all these, too, on the Musical Traditions pages. If I felt generous,
> > > I would put down his editing, or lack of it, to simple laziness, but
> > > as I get older I get less open-handed.
> > >
> > > John Roberts.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >Dick:
> > > >
> > > >Yours is a good offer, but dog in the manger, I wonder if the cuts
are
> > the
> > > >full songs or edited/truncated versions.  My question is based on a
> > > >passing comment by someone on this list a couple of weeks ago, a
comment
> > > >suggesting that Kennedy had edited the tapes for release.
> > > >
> > > >Ed

Good People:Steve Roud sets the record (and me) straight.It was the Folktrax compilations that used snippets, not the Topic series
Dick Greenhaus has commended.  I apologize if I ruffled any feathers in my
ignorance.Happy Thanksgiving,EdOn Thu, 22 Nov 2001, roud wrote:> I believe that the main reason Alan Lomax adopted a cut-and-paste approach
> was that at the time he was making much of his living (certainly while in
> Europe) as a radio presenter of 'folk music'. That's what you did on
> documentaries in those days - you talked about the stuff, played a brief
> snippet, talked, played another snippet and so on. This was especially
> useful if you wanted to compare/contrast different approaches to the same
> song, etc. And you only had half-an-hour..
>
> To be charitable, as someone else has commented - at the time, there was so
> little material availble on record, and little prospect of there being much
> more in the future, and the collectors were finding such a wealth of
> material that they were under pressure to cram as much as possible into what
> little 'space' they had. Remember that this was before the real Revival took
> hold and expanded the market.
>
> What is a great great pity is that some of the Rounder CDs and some (not all
> by any means) of Peter Kennedy's Folktrax issues continue this outdated
> approach.
>
> To be less charitable: Alan Lomax had the example of his father (John)
> before him. Some of John's books are notorious for their cut-and-splice
> texts.
>
> There is an excellent article in the forthcoming issue of Folk Music Journal
> (Vol.8:2, 2002), by E. David Gregory, called 'Lomax in London: the BBC and
> the Folk-Song Revival in England'.
>
> Incidentally, I helped Reg Hall a bit with the Voice of the People series,
> and I can state categorically that no material controlled by Peter Kennedy
> was used. Partly because much of his material is already available on his
> own Folktrax label. However, a brand new CD from Topic, also edited by Reg
> Hall - 'Come Write Me Down', by the Copper Family uses many of PK's
> recordings, and makes up for their absence on the VOTP series.
> Steve Roud
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Special Price on Voice of the People CDs
>
>
> > Norm-
> > I have no real information about this, but Rounder provided a gap in the
> > numbering between the second Classic Ballads volune and Songs of
> Seduction.
> > Could it be that the missing tracks may resurface (I no longer have my
> vinyl
> > copy, so I'm not sure exactly what was on which.
> >
> > dick
> >
> > Norm Cohen wrote:
> >
> > > I second John's misgivings on the Rounder "reissues" of the Caedmon
> series.
> > > I was not so distressed by the medley versions (which I often use for
> > > classroom purposes) but by the fact that some of the tracks on the
> original
> > > LPs had been deleted entirely from the new production.  The moral is, if
> you
> > > have the LPs, they will not be superannuated by the Rounder CDs.
> > > Norm Cohen
> > > >
> > > > The issues that have come up latterly regarding Peter Kennedy's
> > > > collages were concerning the Rounder releases of the Alan Lomax
> > > > material, the English sections of which (and much of the Irish and
> > > > Scots) are being edited by him. For example, at least three the
> > > > Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
> > > > including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
> > > > opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
> > > > indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
> > > > of bits of performances. Another example in the England volume of the
> > > > Columbia World Library of Primitive Music (or something like that)
> > > > where the rationale was to keep the volume as it stood as reflecting
> > > > the tight programming of the original. There are in-depth reviews of
> > > > all these, too, on the Musical Traditions pages. If I felt generous,
> > > > I would put down his editing, or lack of it, to simple laziness, but
> > > > as I get older I get less open-handed.
> > > >
> > > > John Roberts.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >Dick:
> > > > >
> > > > >Yours is a good offer, but dog in the manger, I wonder if the cuts
> are
> > > the
> > > > >full songs or edited/truncated versions.  My question is based on a
> > > > >passing comment by someone on this list a couple of weeks ago, a
> comment
> > > > >suggesting that Kennedy had edited the tapes for release.
> > > > >
> > > > >Ed
>

Dick Greenhaus wrote, very graciously:>The notorious "snippet" recording was the old Caedmon set,
>which has been re-released in part by Rounder as Classic Ballads of Britain
>and Ireland (v1 and v2 )and Songs of Seduction. In all three of the Topic
>releases, additional material has been added to reduce, if not eliminate,
>partial versions. I'm sure that the editing was due to time limitations on
>LPs---something like the classic blivet problem of putting ten pounds into a
>five-pound sack.
>
[and I presume you meant "Rounder" when you said "Topic" above]I wrote (less graciously):> For example, at least three the
> Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
> including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
> opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
> indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
> of bits of performances.Well, I _do_ have the Caedmon set as well as the Rounder releases, so
I thought I'd do a comparison. This covers Side 1 of the first Child
LP, and its equivalents on the Child Volume 1 CD. Since I'm writing
in plain text (at least I think I am), I can't do tables and columns,
so this may be a bit rambling. If it's too rambling, you all have a
delete button. And I've changed the subject header, too, since the
topic has changed.THE ELFIN KNIGHTTwo versions on the LP, Bob & Ron Copper, "An Acre of Land," includes
9 of the 14 verses printed in the booklet. Not on the CD (perhaps
because PK planned to include it in the new Topic CD of the Coppers,
primarily Bob & Ron).Thomas Moran "Strawberry Lane". 5 of 12 verses sung on the LP, all 12
on the CD. Full marks to PK.FALSE KNIGHTThe CD starts with a spoken intro from Duncan McPhee, talking to
Hamish Henderson; he then says "I'll sing it later on, I'll record it
for you," and there are indeed 3 verses in the notes, but _not_ on
the CD which goes straight to Frank Quinn, 4 verses, same as the LP
which only has the Quinn version.LADY ISABEL & THE ELF KNIGHTOn CD and LP by Fred Jordan, but they are different recordings. The
LP version, sung in F#, has 1-10 of the 15 verses, (the whole text is
in the notes), the CD version (sung lower, in D) is a concert
recording, and is complete.DOUGLAS TRAGEDYA recited fragment is inserted here on the CD - there is no
equivalent on the LPTWA SISTERS (Binnorie)The LP has 6 verses from John Strachan [aside: was that pronounced
"Strakkan" or "Strawn"?] and the booklet adds a further 11 verses
from Ord.On the CD there is a new collage! 8 verses are sung, rotating between
John Strachan (vs. 1,3,and 6 from the LP), Dorothy Fourbister, and
Ethel Findlater. The CD texts give only the verses that are sung.LORD RANDALThe CD is the same as the LP, a collage of Scottish, Irish-English,
Irish-Gaelic and Welsh. Notes are essentially the same too, giving
the sung texts only (the Gaelic only in English translation apart
from the first line of the verse, the Welsh in Welsh and in
translation). The notes also give the "rest of story" of the Welsh
version, but only in English translation. [Did I read somewhere that
the Welsh singers, Eirlys & Eddis Thomas, are his in-laws or
something?]EDWARDTwo different collages!The CD starts with 4 verses from Mary Ellen Connors; on the LP this
version is sung by Paddy Tunney (as learned from her) - he sings vs.
2,3,5,6,7 of her text, 7 verses in the LP notes. Only the first 4
verses are in the CD notes.The CD continues with 6 verses of "My Son David" from Jeannie
Robertson; the LP has only 3 verses, but the text of the others is
included.Then on the CD we get 4 verses from Thomas Moran, starting with "What
will you do when your father comes home?" There is no indication in
the CD notes that Mr. Moran might have verses before and/or after
this segment, and in general this is the case when a singer is
employed to give a ballad segment in these collages.The CD continues with 3 verses from Angela Brasil. There is a verse
"omitted" in this segment and the text is included, so there are 4
verses in the CD notes, but again no indication there might be more.
The LP notes give a 6-verse text. On the LP she sings verses 3-6, on
the CD 4-6. Strangely, the LP notes do not give the "omitted" verse
mentioned above.KING ORFEOThe audio segments are the same, the 4 verses from John Stickle. The
LP notes give a 21-verse text from 1865; the CD notes only mention
this, but they do include portions of the text from an 1880 article,
showing where Mr. Stickle's verses would fit in.THE CRUEL MOTHERThe CD is a collage of segments from three singers. Duncan Burke
gives a fragmentary version, with some of the story spoken. Cecilia
Costello covers the first part of the story with 5 verses (the
booklet only has 4, and there is, again, no indication there might be
more of her text - I can't remember if it's on her solo LP, and my
copy seems to be on walkabout so I can't check, but I would expect
her version to be relatively complete). Then there are 4 verses from
Thomas Moran, again no indication there might be more.On the LP Thomas Moran's is the only version, and he sings 6 verses,
apparently his complete version.THE BROOMFIELD WAGERThe LP has Cyril Poacher singing 5 verses, 2 more given in the notes.
On the CD the performance is restored to its entirety, and a "Hold
the wheel" shouted out between the first verse and chorus, excised
from the LP, is also returned._____
Well, that covers just one side of an LP, and it took me a good
while. I'd done brief reviews of the Rounder CDs, with minimal
comparison to the LPs, and a more detailed comparison is something
I'd wanted to do. Unfortunately, the main conclusion I draw is that
with Peter Kennedy you never know quite what you're dealing with. I
withdraw my snide comment about laziness (in another post), but I do
wish he could be more direct. But when you get only bits of a ballad,
and as the examples above show he's still doing new cutting and
pasting of what I've been calling his collages, the end result is
something that is no use to the person just trying to learn the song,
no use to the ballad scholar, and essentially unlistenable,
particularly as a "ballad" where it is the continuity of the
performance that draws the audience into the story.John Roberts.
John Roberts.

Great thanks to John Roberts for this bit of sleuthing.  I agree
wholeheartedly - give us the ballad, the whole ballad and nothing but the
ballad (tho I must say that the "collages" are wonderful teaching tools,
particularly for students with no notion of the folk process).
Jon Bartlett
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Roberts" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 11:03 PM
Subject: Re-editing Caedmon> Dick Greenhaus wrote, very graciously:
>
> >The notorious "snippet" recording was the old Caedmon set,
> >which has been re-released in part by Rounder as Classic Ballads of
Britain
> >and Ireland (v1 and v2 )and Songs of Seduction. In all three of the Topic
> >releases, additional material has been added to reduce, if not eliminate,
> >partial versions. I'm sure that the editing was due to time limitations
on
> >LPs---something like the classic blivet problem of putting ten pounds
into a
> >five-pound sack.
> >
> [and I presume you meant "Rounder" when you said "Topic" above]
>
> I wrote (less graciously):
>
> > For example, at least three the
> > Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
> > including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
> > opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
> > indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
> > of bits of performances.
>
>
> Well, I _do_ have the Caedmon set as well as the Rounder releases, so
> I thought I'd do a comparison. This covers Side 1 of the first Child
> LP, and its equivalents on the Child Volume 1 CD. Since I'm writing
> in plain text (at least I think I am), I can't do tables and columns,
> so this may be a bit rambling. If it's too rambling, you all have a
> delete button. And I've changed the subject header, too, since the
> topic has changed.
>
>
> THE ELFIN KNIGHT
>
> Two versions on the LP, Bob & Ron Copper, "An Acre of Land," includes
> 9 of the 14 verses printed in the booklet. Not on the CD (perhaps
> because PK planned to include it in the new Topic CD of the Coppers,
> primarily Bob & Ron).
>
> Thomas Moran "Strawberry Lane". 5 of 12 verses sung on the LP, all 12
> on the CD. Full marks to PK.
>
>
> FALSE KNIGHT
>
> The CD starts with a spoken intro from Duncan McPhee, talking to
> Hamish Henderson; he then says "I'll sing it later on, I'll record it
> for you," and there are indeed 3 verses in the notes, but _not_ on
> the CD which goes straight to Frank Quinn, 4 verses, same as the LP
> which only has the Quinn version.
>
>
> LADY ISABEL & THE ELF KNIGHT
>
> On CD and LP by Fred Jordan, but they are different recordings. The
> LP version, sung in F#, has 1-10 of the 15 verses, (the whole text is
> in the notes), the CD version (sung lower, in D) is a concert
> recording, and is complete.
>
>
> DOUGLAS TRAGEDY
>
> A recited fragment is inserted here on the CD - there is no
> equivalent on the LP
>
>
> TWA SISTERS (Binnorie)
>
> The LP has 6 verses from John Strachan [aside: was that pronounced
> "Strakkan" or "Strawn"?] and the booklet adds a further 11 verses
> from Ord.
>
> On the CD there is a new collage! 8 verses are sung, rotating between
> John Strachan (vs. 1,3,and 6 from the LP), Dorothy Fourbister, and
> Ethel Findlater. The CD texts give only the verses that are sung.
>
>
> LORD RANDAL
>
> The CD is the same as the LP, a collage of Scottish, Irish-English,
> Irish-Gaelic and Welsh. Notes are essentially the same too, giving
> the sung texts only (the Gaelic only in English translation apart
> from the first line of the verse, the Welsh in Welsh and in
> translation). The notes also give the "rest of story" of the Welsh
> version, but only in English translation. [Did I read somewhere that
> the Welsh singers, Eirlys & Eddis Thomas, are his in-laws or
> something?]
>
>
> EDWARD
>
> Two different collages!
>
> The CD starts with 4 verses from Mary Ellen Connors; on the LP this
> version is sung by Paddy Tunney (as learned from her) - he sings vs.
> 2,3,5,6,7 of her text, 7 verses in the LP notes. Only the first 4
> verses are in the CD notes.
>
> The CD continues with 6 verses of "My Son David" from Jeannie
> Robertson; the LP has only 3 verses, but the text of the others is
> included.
>
> Then on the CD we get 4 verses from Thomas Moran, starting with "What
> will you do when your father comes home?" There is no indication in
> the CD notes that Mr. Moran might have verses before and/or after
> this segment, and in general this is the case when a singer is
> employed to give a ballad segment in these collages.
>
> The CD continues with 3 verses from Angela Brasil. There is a verse
> "omitted" in this segment and the text is included, so there are 4
> verses in the CD notes, but again no indication there might be more.
> The LP notes give a 6-verse text. On the LP she sings verses 3-6, on
> the CD 4-6. Strangely, the LP notes do not give the "omitted" verse
> mentioned above.
>
>
> KING ORFEO
>
> The audio segments are the same, the 4 verses from John Stickle. The
> LP notes give a 21-verse text from 1865; the CD notes only mention
> this, but they do include portions of the text from an 1880 article,
> showing where Mr. Stickle's verses would fit in.
>
>
> THE CRUEL MOTHER
>
> The CD is a collage of segments from three singers. Duncan Burke
> gives a fragmentary version, with some of the story spoken. Cecilia
> Costello covers the first part of the story with 5 verses (the
> booklet only has 4, and there is, again, no indication there might be
> more of her text - I can't remember if it's on her solo LP, and my
> copy seems to be on walkabout so I can't check, but I would expect
> her version to be relatively complete). Then there are 4 verses from
> Thomas Moran, again no indication there might be more.
>
> On the LP Thomas Moran's is the only version, and he sings 6 verses,
> apparently his complete version.
>
>
> THE BROOMFIELD WAGER
>
> The LP has Cyril Poacher singing 5 verses, 2 more given in the notes.
> On the CD the performance is restored to its entirety, and a "Hold
> the wheel" shouted out between the first verse and chorus, excised
> from the LP, is also returned.
>
> _____
> Well, that covers just one side of an LP, and it took me a good
> while. I'd done brief reviews of the Rounder CDs, with minimal
> comparison to the LPs, and a more detailed comparison is something
> I'd wanted to do. Unfortunately, the main conclusion I draw is that
> with Peter Kennedy you never know quite what you're dealing with. I
> withdraw my snide comment about laziness (in another post), but I do
> wish he could be more direct. But when you get only bits of a ballad,
> and as the examples above show he's still doing new cutting and
> pasting of what I've been calling his collages, the end result is
> something that is no use to the person just trying to learn the song,
> no use to the ballad scholar, and essentially unlistenable,
> particularly as a "ballad" where it is the continuity of the
> performance that draws the audience into the story.
>
> John Roberts.
> John Roberts.

I have a 'first edition' of Pills to Purge Melancholy given me by a
neighbour who died earlier this year.  Now I've been told that the set
was reprinted page-for-page in the middle of the nineteenth century,
even down to using the original date (1719-20).  Can anyone let me know
how I can tell whether I have the original 1st edition or not (all
right, I know there were other editions before 1719, but they were
considerably shorter)?  It's not self-evident from the condition of the
volumes.Gerald PorterOn Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:31:41PM -0500, John Roberts wrote:
>
> > Since we've been talking about reprinted books, I thought I'd mention
> > that Thomas D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy has been reprinted by
> > the Higginson Book Company of Salem MA
> > <http://www.higginsonbooks.com/> and can be ordered from them in a
> > nice 3-volume hardbound set for about $225, I think. The book is not
> > yet listed on their website, which deals mostly with genealogical
> > reprints, but it is available.
>

> I have a 'first edition' of Pills to Purge Melancholy given me by a
> neighbour who died earlier this year.  Now I've been told that the set
> was reprinted page-for-page in the middle of the nineteenth century,
> even down to using the original date (1719-20).  Can anyone let me
> know how I can tell whether I have the original 1st edition or not
> [...] It's not self-evident from the condition of the volumes.Watermarks.  Take it to a good reference library and ask them to help.
The rare book room at the National Library of Scotland has books of
watermarks covering the whole history of printing and special lights
for transilluminating pages without burning holes in them.  I've never
done it myself, but from the number of people I've seen at it, it can't
be difficult.You could just transilluminate a page and trace the watermark yourself,
then put a scan of the tracing on the web.  If somebody here has a copy
known to be either the original or the reprint they could then tell you
if yours matches what they've got.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

Many  thanx, John. The problem with being in this business is the very real risk of learning something.dick
>
> From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
> Date: 2001/11/22 Thu AM 01:03:15 CST
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re-editing Caedmon
>
> Dick Greenhaus wrote, very graciously:
>
> >The notorious "snippet" recording was the old Caedmon set,
> >which has been re-released in part by Rounder as Classic Ballads of Britain
> >and Ireland (v1 and v2 )and Songs of Seduction. In all three of the Topic
> >releases, additional material has been added to reduce, if not eliminate,
> >partial versions. I'm sure that the editing was due to time limitations on
> >LPs---something like the classic blivet problem of putting ten pounds into a
> >five-pound sack.
> >
> [and I presume you meant "Rounder" when you said "Topic" above]
>
> I wrote (less graciously):
>
> > For example, at least three the
> > Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
> > including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
> > opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
> > indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
> > of bits of performances.
>
>
> Well, I _do_ have the Caedmon set as well as the Rounder releases, so
> I thought I'd do a comparison. This covers Side 1 of the first Child
> LP, and its equivalents on the Child Volume 1 CD. Since I'm writing
> in plain text (at least I think I am), I can't do tables and columns,
> so this may be a bit rambling. If it's too rambling, you all have a
> delete button. And I've changed the subject header, too, since the
> topic has changed.
>
>
> THE ELFIN KNIGHT
>
> Two versions on the LP, Bob & Ron Copper, "An Acre of Land," includes
> 9 of the 14 verses printed in the booklet. Not on the CD (perhaps
> because PK planned to include it in the new Topic CD of the Coppers,
> primarily Bob & Ron).
>
> Thomas Moran "Strawberry Lane". 5 of 12 verses sung on the LP, all 12
> on the CD. Full marks to PK.
>
>
> FALSE KNIGHT
>
> The CD starts with a spoken intro from Duncan McPhee, talking to
> Hamish Henderson; he then says "I'll sing it later on, I'll record it
> for you," and there are indeed 3 verses in the notes, but _not_ on
> the CD which goes straight to Frank Quinn, 4 verses, same as the LP
> which only has the Quinn version.
>
>
> LADY ISABEL & THE ELF KNIGHT
>
> On CD and LP by Fred Jordan, but they are different recordings. The
> LP version, sung in F#, has 1-10 of the 15 verses, (the whole text is
> in the notes), the CD version (sung lower, in D) is a concert
> recording, and is complete.
>
>
> DOUGLAS TRAGEDY
>
> A recited fragment is inserted here on the CD - there is no
> equivalent on the LP
>
>
> TWA SISTERS (Binnorie)
>
> The LP has 6 verses from John Strachan [aside: was that pronounced
> "Strakkan" or "Strawn"?] and the booklet adds a further 11 verses
> from Ord.
>
> On the CD there is a new collage! 8 verses are sung, rotating between
> John Strachan (vs. 1,3,and 6 from the LP), Dorothy Fourbister, and
> Ethel Findlater. The CD texts give only the verses that are sung.
>
>
> LORD RANDAL
>
> The CD is the same as the LP, a collage of Scottish, Irish-English,
> Irish-Gaelic and Welsh. Notes are essentially the same too, giving
> the sung texts only (the Gaelic only in English translation apart
> from the first line of the verse, the Welsh in Welsh and in
> translation). The notes also give the "rest of story" of the Welsh
> version, but only in English translation. [Did I read somewhere that
> the Welsh singers, Eirlys & Eddis Thomas, are his in-laws or
> something?]
>
>
> EDWARD
>
> Two different collages!
>
> The CD starts with 4 verses from Mary Ellen Connors; on the LP this
> version is sung by Paddy Tunney (as learned from her) - he sings vs.
> 2,3,5,6,7 of her text, 7 verses in the LP notes. Only the first 4
> verses are in the CD notes.
>
> The CD continues with 6 verses of "My Son David" from Jeannie
> Robertson; the LP has only 3 verses, but the text of the others is
> included.
>
> Then on the CD we get 4 verses from Thomas Moran, starting with "What
> will you do when your father comes home?" There is no indication in
> the CD notes that Mr. Moran might have verses before and/or after
> this segment, and in general this is the case when a singer is
> employed to give a ballad segment in these collages.
>
> The CD continues with 3 verses from Angela Brasil. There is a verse
> "omitted" in this segment and the text is included, so there are 4
> verses in the CD notes, but again no indication there might be more.
> The LP notes give a 6-verse text. On the LP she sings verses 3-6, on
> the CD 4-6. Strangely, the LP notes do not give the "omitted" verse
> mentioned above.
>
>
> KING ORFEO
>
> The audio segments are the same, the 4 verses from John Stickle. The
> LP notes give a 21-verse text from 1865; the CD notes only mention
> this, but they do include portions of the text from an 1880 article,
> showing where Mr. Stickle's verses would fit in.
>
>
> THE CRUEL MOTHER
>
> The CD is a collage of segments from three singers. Duncan Burke
> gives a fragmentary version, with some of the story spoken. Cecilia
> Costello covers the first part of the story with 5 verses (the
> booklet only has 4, and there is, again, no indication there might be
> more of her text - I can't remember if it's on her solo LP, and my
> copy seems to be on walkabout so I can't check, but I would expect
> her version to be relatively complete). Then there are 4 verses from
> Thomas Moran, again no indication there might be more.
>
> On the LP Thomas Moran's is the only version, and he sings 6 verses,
> apparently his complete version.
>
>
> THE BROOMFIELD WAGER
>
> The LP has Cyril Poacher singing 5 verses, 2 more given in the notes.
> On the CD the performance is restored to its entirety, and a "Hold
> the wheel" shouted out between the first verse and chorus, excised
> from the LP, is also returned.
>
> _____
> Well, that covers just one side of an LP, and it took me a good
> while. I'd done brief reviews of the Rounder CDs, with minimal
> comparison to the LPs, and a more detailed comparison is something
> I'd wanted to do. Unfortunately, the main conclusion I draw is that
> with Peter Kennedy you never know quite what you're dealing with. I
> withdraw my snide comment about laziness (in another post), but I do
> wish he could be more direct. But when you get only bits of a ballad,
> and as the examples above show he's still doing new cutting and
> pasting of what I've been calling his collages, the end result is
> something that is no use to the person just trying to learn the song,
> no use to the ballad scholar, and essentially unlistenable,
> particularly as a "ballad" where it is the continuity of the
> performance that draws the audience into the story.
>
> John Roberts.
> John Roberts.
>

Gerald and Others:Cyrus L. Day's introduction to the Folklore Library reprint of 1959 of the
six volumes (in three) of _Pills to Purge Melancholy_ offers this
information (p. x): In 1876, the six volumes of the 1719-1720 _Pills_ were
reprinted anonymously -- presumably by J.S. Farmer.  "Except that the long
's' is abandoned, the pages look almost exactly like the pages of the
original edition.  The text, though not impeccable, is extraordinarily
accurate."In short, look for the long "s."Now, I've got to go stuff a turkey.Happy Thanksgiving to all --EdOn Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Gerald Porter wrote:> I have a 'first edition' of Pills to Purge Melancholy given me by a
> neighbour who died earlier this year.  Now I've been told that the set
> was reprinted page-for-page in the middle of the nineteenth century,
> even down to using the original date (1719-20).  Can anyone let me know
> how I can tell whether I have the original 1st edition or not (all
> right, I know there were other editions before 1719, but they were
> considerably shorter)?  It's not self-evident from the condition of the
> volumes.
>
> Gerald Porter
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 05:31:41PM -0500, John Roberts wrote:
> >
> > > Since we've been talking about reprinted books, I thought I'd mention
> > > that Thomas D'Urfey's Pills To Purge Melancholy has been reprinted by
> > > the Higginson Book Company of Salem MA
> > > <http://www.higginsonbooks.com/> and can be ordered from them in a
> > > nice 3-volume hardbound set for about $225, I think. The book is not
> > > yet listed on their website, which deals mostly with genealogical
> > > reprints, but it is available.
> >
>

BTW, John-Musical Traditions has released a CD of Cyril Poacher in which he sings Broomfield Wager without the "Hold the Wheel"
shouted chorus. Did PK excise it from the CD version, or was it a different performance?>
> From: Dick Greenhaus <[unmask]>
> Date: 2001/11/22 Thu AM 10:19:55 CST
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Re-editing Caedmon
>
> Many  thanx, John. The problem with being in this business is the very real risk of learning something.
>
> dick
> >
> > From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
> > Date: 2001/11/22 Thu AM 01:03:15 CST
> > To: [unmask]
> > Subject: Re-editing Caedmon
> >
> > Dick Greenhaus wrote, very graciously:
> >
> > >The notorious "snippet" recording was the old Caedmon set,
> > >which has been re-released in part by Rounder as Classic Ballads of Britain
> > >and Ireland (v1 and v2 )and Songs of Seduction. In all three of the Topic
> > >releases, additional material has been added to reduce, if not eliminate,
> > >partial versions. I'm sure that the editing was due to time limitations on
> > >LPs---something like the classic blivet problem of putting ten pounds into a
> > >five-pound sack.
> > >
> > [and I presume you meant "Rounder" when you said "Topic" above]
> >
> > I wrote (less graciously):
> >
> > > For example, at least three the
> > > Caedmon "Folk Songs of Britain" series have been released so far,
> > > including the two volumes of Child ballads, and Kennedy passed up the
> > > opportunity to restore the partial ballads to completeness, and
> > > indeed in some instances came up with whole new cut-and-paste medleys
> > > of bits of performances.
> >
> >
> > Well, I _do_ have the Caedmon set as well as the Rounder releases, so
> > I thought I'd do a comparison. This covers Side 1 of the first Child
> > LP, and its equivalents on the Child Volume 1 CD. Since I'm writing
> > in plain text (at least I think I am), I can't do tables and columns,
> > so this may be a bit rambling. If it's too rambling, you all have a
> > delete button. And I've changed the subject header, too, since the
> > topic has changed.
> >
> >
> > THE ELFIN KNIGHT
> >
> > Two versions on the LP, Bob & Ron Copper, "An Acre of Land," includes
> > 9 of the 14 verses printed in the booklet. Not on the CD (perhaps
> > because PK planned to include it in the new Topic CD of the Coppers,
> > primarily Bob & Ron).
> >
> > Thomas Moran "Strawberry Lane". 5 of 12 verses sung on the LP, all 12
> > on the CD. Full marks to PK.
> >
> >
> > FALSE KNIGHT
> >
> > The CD starts with a spoken intro from Duncan McPhee, talking to
> > Hamish Henderson; he then says "I'll sing it later on, I'll record it
> > for you," and there are indeed 3 verses in the notes, but _not_ on
> > the CD which goes straight to Frank Quinn, 4 verses, same as the LP
> > which only has the Quinn version.
> >
> >
> > LADY ISABEL & THE ELF KNIGHT
> >
> > On CD and LP by Fred Jordan, but they are different recordings. The
> > LP version, sung in F#, has 1-10 of the 15 verses, (the whole text is
> > in the notes), the CD version (sung lower, in D) is a concert
> > recording, and is complete.
> >
> >
> > DOUGLAS TRAGEDY
> >
> > A recited fragment is inserted here on the CD - there is no
> > equivalent on the LP
> >
> >
> > TWA SISTERS (Binnorie)
> >
> > The LP has 6 verses from John Strachan [aside: was that pronounced
> > "Strakkan" or "Strawn"?] and the booklet adds a further 11 verses
> > from Ord.
> >
> > On the CD there is a new collage! 8 verses are sung, rotating between
> > John Strachan (vs. 1,3,and 6 from the LP), Dorothy Fourbister, and
> > Ethel Findlater. The CD texts give only the verses that are sung.
> >
> >
> > LORD RANDAL
> >
> > The CD is the same as the LP, a collage of Scottish, Irish-English,
> > Irish-Gaelic and Welsh. Notes are essentially the same too, giving
> > the sung texts only (the Gaelic only in English translation apart
> > from the first line of the verse, the Welsh in Welsh and in
> > translation). The notes also give the "rest of story" of the Welsh
> > version, but only in English translation. [Did I read somewhere that
> > the Welsh singers, Eirlys & Eddis Thomas, are his in-laws or
> > something?]
> >
> >
> > EDWARD
> >
> > Two different collages!
> >
> > The CD starts with 4 verses from Mary Ellen Connors; on the LP this
> > version is sung by Paddy Tunney (as learned from her) - he sings vs.
> > 2,3,5,6,7 of her text, 7 verses in the LP notes. Only the first 4
> > verses are in the CD notes.
> >
> > The CD continues with 6 verses of "My Son David" from Jeannie
> > Robertson; the LP has only 3 verses, but the text of the others is
> > included.
> >
> > Then on the CD we get 4 verses from Thomas Moran, starting with "What
> > will you do when your father comes home?" There is no indication in
> > the CD notes that Mr. Moran might have verses before and/or after
> > this segment, and in general this is the case when a singer is
> > employed to give a ballad segment in these collages.
> >
> > The CD continues with 3 verses from Angela Brasil. There is a verse
> > "omitted" in this segment and the text is included, so there are 4
> > verses in the CD notes, but again no indication there might be more.
> > The LP notes give a 6-verse text. On the LP she sings verses 3-6, on
> > the CD 4-6. Strangely, the LP notes do not give the "omitted" verse
> > mentioned above.
> >
> >
> > KING ORFEO
> >
> > The audio segments are the same, the 4 verses from John Stickle. The
> > LP notes give a 21-verse text from 1865; the CD notes only mention
> > this, but they do include portions of the text from an 1880 article,
> > showing where Mr. Stickle's verses would fit in.
> >
> >
> > THE CRUEL MOTHER
> >
> > The CD is a collage of segments from three singers. Duncan Burke
> > gives a fragmentary version, with some of the story spoken. Cecilia
> > Costello covers the first part of the story with 5 verses (the
> > booklet only has 4, and there is, again, no indication there might be
> > more of her text - I can't remember if it's on her solo LP, and my
> > copy seems to be on walkabout so I can't check, but I would expect
> > her version to be relatively complete). Then there are 4 verses from
> > Thomas Moran, again no indication there might be more.
> >
> > On the LP Thomas Moran's is the only version, and he sings 6 verses,
> > apparently his complete version.
> >
> >
> > THE BROOMFIELD WAGER
> >
> > The LP has Cyril Poacher singing 5 verses, 2 more given in the notes.
> > On the CD the performance is restored to its entirety, and a "Hold
> > the wheel" shouted out between the first verse and chorus, excised
> > from the LP, is also returned.
> >
> > _____
> > Well, that covers just one side of an LP, and it took me a good
> > while. I'd done brief reviews of the Rounder CDs, with minimal
> > comparison to the LPs, and a more detailed comparison is something
> > I'd wanted to do. Unfortunately, the main conclusion I draw is that
> > with Peter Kennedy you never know quite what you're dealing with. I
> > withdraw my snide comment about laziness (in another post), but I do
> > wish he could be more direct. But when you get only bits of a ballad,
> > and as the examples above show he's still doing new cutting and
> > pasting of what I've been calling his collages, the end result is
> > something that is no use to the person just trying to learn the song,
> > no use to the ballad scholar, and essentially unlistenable,
> > particularly as a "ballad" where it is the continuity of the
> > performance that draws the audience into the story.
> >
> > John Roberts.
> > John Roberts.
> >
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

This particular recording was made in September, 1974, at Cyril's
home. I don't have the MT recording, but I do have Tony Engle's
recording of the same song (from the Topic LP), from sessions
recorded in August and September of the same year, so they must be
very close. The MT notes say: "On Cyril's earlier recording, made by
the BBC (Child Ballads Vol I, Topic 12T160), the singer and audience
constantly interject the phrase 'hold the wheel'.  This allegedly
arose as a result of the singer trying to explain the story to a
visiting yachtsman who misunderstood 'had his way' as 'hold the
wheel', but by the 1970s Cyril had gone back to the old way of
singing it."The notes to the Topic LP give the same explanation, except the
phrase is 'had his will'; they add that "Cyril prefers to sing the
song without it."So we have two time periods, but also two different social
situations. In the pub in 1957, not only was the "hold the wheel"
chorus added, but the performance included the common refrain of
repeating the last half of each verse. Cyril certainly leads this
refrain, singing it through in the first couple of verses, and
starting it off in the following ones. He does not, however, join in
on the  "hold the wheel." At home, a good many years later, with no
audience, we don't get the refrain or the chorus. I wonder, even
though by the 1970s the "hold the wheel" was apparently dropped in
the pub, if his audience there would let him go to the next verse
without the repeat.To try to answer your specific question, Kennedy's CD version was the
same performance as on the LP. Someone jumped the gun a bit, adding
the "hold the wheel" between the first verse and refrain rather than
after the refrain, and PK chose to snip that out of the LP version.John Roberts.In a message dated 11/23/2001 12:08:45 AM GMT Standard Time,
[unmask] writes:Musical Traditions has released a CD of Cyril Poacher in which he
sings Broomfield Wager without the "Hold the Wheel"
shouted chorus. Did PK excise it from the CD version, or was it a
different performance?Different performance - these recording were made around 1965 by Mike
Yates, Ginette Dunn, Keith Summers and others - not a Kennedy in
sight.John Moulden

Hi!        I hope that everyone (in the US) had a good Thanksgiving
yesterday!!        Well, individual volumes of various editions of Child keep
appearing. This week it is volume V of the 1957 Folklore Press edition.
        Auction 1487613456 for those who are interested.        Other auctions of possible interest:        The Ballad Book by Leach 1487452966
        Anglo-American Folksong Style by Abrahams & Foss 1487474731
        Folk Songs of the Kentucky Mountains by McGill (1917) 1487462202
        Come A Singing! Canadian Folk-Songs (1973 reprint) by Barbeau,
Lismer & Bourinot 1487469818
        A Canadian Song Book (1960 edition) by MacMillan 1487470664One of the Peter Kennedy CDs that we have been discussing has appeared
on Ebay - Harry Cox's What will become of England Recorded in Norfolk &
London, England in 1953 by Lomax and Kennedy Auction #1488204665.                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

On the principle that people around this list have better
backgrounds in English poetry than I do, I'm going to ask
what will probably prove a dumb question.When I was indexing Cox's _Folksongs of the South_, I met
the odd, damaged piece "Black Phyllis," which begins:And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,
And took away Annie, his unwilling bride.
It rained, it hailed, and I sat and cried,
And wished that my Annie that day had then died.Note the metrical pattern:U-U U-U || U-U -U(where U represents an unstressed syllable and - a stress;
|| is the caesura)Now here's my question: What is the name of a U-U foot?
The books don't even admit it exists; it's not an iamb
or a dactyl or a trochee or an anapest or a spondee. I
tried five different references, and those are the only
five feet they mentions.Second, can anyone think of another folk song using
that meter? The closest I've found is in Kinloch's _Ballad
Book_ (#XXII):First there cam whipmen, and that not a few,
And there cam bonnetmen following the pleughAny other suggestions?
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:20:09 -0600, you wrote:>On the principle that people around this list have better
>backgrounds in English poetry than I do, I'm going to ask
>what will probably prove a dumb question.
>
>When I was indexing Cox's _Folksongs of the South_, I met
>the odd, damaged piece "Black Phyllis," which begins:
>
>And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,
>And took away Annie, his unwilling bride.
>It rained, it hailed, and I sat and cried,
>And wished that my Annie that day had then died.
>
>Note the metrical pattern:
>
>U-U U-U || U-U -U
>
>(where U represents an unstressed syllable and - a stress;
>|| is the caesura)
>
>Second, can anyone think of another folk song using
>that meter? The closest I've found is in Kinloch's _Ballad
>Book_ (#XXII):
>
>First there cam whipmen, and that not a few,
>And there cam bonnetmen following the pleugh
>
>Any other suggestions?Isn't it more like:
U-U U-U || U-U U-
because the lines end on a stressed syllable?Not traditional, but 'Dancing at Whitsun'
The tune's nearly the same as 'Jamie Foyers' so that's another one.
At least one version of 'Bonnie Light Horseman'?
It seems to me it would be a common pattern for songs in 3/4 time, but I
may be missing something.Jeri Corlew

Is it not an iamb followed by three anapaests?Deep in the recesses of my mind lurks:"I sprang to the stirrup and Joris and he
I galloped, he galloped, we galloped all threeRegardsMartin Ryan
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
To: [unmask] <[unmask]>
Date: 26 November 2001 15:03
Subject: Strange Metrical Question>On the principle that people around this list have better
>backgrounds in English poetry than I do, I'm going to ask
>what will probably prove a dumb question.
>
>When I was indexing Cox's _Folksongs of the South_, I met
>the odd, damaged piece "Black Phyllis," which begins:
>
>And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,
>And took away Annie, his unwilling bride.
>It rained, it hailed, and I sat and cried,
>And wished that my Annie that day had then died.
>
>Note the metrical pattern:
>
>U-U U-U || U-U -U
>
>(where U represents an unstressed syllable and - a stress;
>|| is the caesura)
>
>Now here's my question: What is the name of a U-U foot?
>The books don't even admit it exists; it's not an iamb
>or a dactyl or a trochee or an anapest or a spondee. I
>tried five different references, and those are the only
>five feet they mentions.
>
>Second, can anyone think of another folk song using
>that meter? The closest I've found is in Kinloch's _Ballad
>Book_ (#XXII):
>
>First there cam whipmen, and that not a few,
>And there cam bonnetmen following the pleugh
>
>Any other suggestions?
>--
>Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
>1078 Colne Street
>Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
>651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
>The Ballad Index Web Site:
>http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

On 11/26/01, Jeri Corlew wrote:>On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 08:20:09 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>On the principle that people around this list have better
>>backgrounds in English poetry than I do, I'm going to ask
>>what will probably prove a dumb question.
>>
>>When I was indexing Cox's _Folksongs of the South_, I met
>>the odd, damaged piece "Black Phyllis," which begins:
>>
> >And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,
>>And took away Annie, his unwilling bride.
>>It rained, it hailed, and I sat and cried,
>>And wished that my Annie that day had then died.
>>
>>Note the metrical pattern:
>>
>>U-U U-U || U-U -U
>>
>>(where U represents an unstressed syllable and - a stress;
>>|| is the caesura)
>>
>>Second, can anyone think of another folk song using
>>that meter? The closest I've found is in Kinloch's _Ballad
>>Book_ (#XXII):
>>
>>First there cam whipmen, and that not a few,
>>And there cam bonnetmen following the pleugh
>>
>>Any other suggestions?
>
>Isn't it more like:
>U-U U-U || U-U U-
>because the lines end on a stressed syllable?Hm. Not the way I read it. Looking at "Black Phyllis,"
it does look like some "should" put the stress on the first
syllable of the final foot and some on the second. OK,
declare it a final spondee:U-U U-U || U-U -->Not traditional, but 'Dancing at Whitsun'That *is* a traditional tune, "The Week Before Easter."
But it's not the same pattern. "Week Before Easter" is
four full feet of three syllables. Here, there are
eleven syllables per line.>The tune's nearly the same as 'Jamie Foyers' so that's another one.I agree that's in eleven syllables per line. I don't know the
tune, so I can't guarantee this, but doesn't it scan differently,
thoug?>At least one version of 'Bonnie Light Horseman'?
>It seems to me it would be a common pattern for songs in 3/4 time, but I
>may be missing something.Part of my problem is that I have a very hard time comparing
songs with lyrics-without-music. But none of them seem to
scan the same way to me.On 11/26/01, Martin Ryan wrote:>Is it not an iamb followed by three anapaests?You can read it that way, but I don't stress it that way.
You don't get the caesura in the right place.Maybe I read poetry funny :-), but it look at that
stanza of "Black Phyllis." The first three lines
all have the comma at the same place: After syllable
six. To me, that says (in the absence of a tune) that
it's two three-syllable feet, then a three and a two.>Deep in the recesses of my mind lurks:
>
>"I sprang to the stirrup and Joris and he
>I galloped, he galloped, we galloped all threeThat sounds closer. Doesn't sound like a folk song,
though. :-)
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

>And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,Anapaestic will an incomplete initial foot (missing the first
unstressed syllable)?
--
john garst    [unmask]

>And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,>Anapaestic will an incomplete initial foot (missing the first
>unstressed syllable)?Ugh! WITH, not WILL.--
john garst    [unmask]

On 11/26/01, John Garst wrote:>>And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,
>
>Anapaestic will an incomplete initial foot (missing the first
>unstressed syllable)?Is that allowed? That is, can it be called "anapestic" if it
is missing a syllable? (Serious question.)
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

>On 11/26/01, John Garst wrote:
>
>>>And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,
>>
>>Anapaestic will an incomplete initial foot (missing the first
>>unstressed syllable)?
>
>Is that allowed? That is, can it be called "anapestic" if it
>is missing a syllable? (Serious question.)I think so (notice the uncertainty).
--
john garst    [unmask]

Bob,I think it's your scansion that's at fault, I'm afraid. What you have is an
anacrucial start on each line. Thus you should render the verse (omitting
the caesurae for clarity):
u/-uu/-uu/-uu/-
u/-uu/-uu/-uu/-
u/-u/-u/-uu/-
u/-uu/-uu/-uu/-Line 3 is the only odd one out in it has two trochees replacing two dactyls.
The effect of the anacrusis is to break a trochee across the line end.Dactylic verse with an anacrucial start is enormously common in English
poetry. The most famous is probably Browning's "How I brought the good news
from Ghent to Aix" which from memory goesI sprang to the stirrup, and Joris and he
I galloped, Dirk galloped, we galloped all three
...etcIn folk song, try "The Fair Flower of Northumberland":The provost's ae daughter was a-walking alane
Ah but her love it was easily won
When she heard the Scots prisoner a makin' his mane
And she was the flowr o' Northumberland- the same anacrucial start, although there is no anacrucial bridge between
lines 1 and 2 and the foot bridging lines 2 and 3 is a dactyl.Or:I once loved a lass, and I loved her sae weel,
And I curséd all others that thoght o' her ill,
But now she's rewarded me weel for my love
For she's gone to be wed tae anotherSee George Saintsbury, Historical Manual of English Prosody, (London:
Macmillan, 1919). He covers anacrusis in his glossary.I find that anacrusis is one of those things where it helps to be a morris
dancer to recognise it, because it's where you leap into the air to "drop"
on to the beat.Hope this helpsSimon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:20 PM
Subject: Strange Metrical Question> On the principle that people around this list have better
> backgrounds in English poetry than I do, I'm going to ask
> what will probably prove a dumb question.
>
> When I was indexing Cox's _Folksongs of the South_, I met
> the odd, damaged piece "Black Phyllis," which begins:
>
> And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,
> And took away Annie, his unwilling bride.
> It rained, it hailed, and I sat and cried,
> And wished that my Annie that day had then died.
>
> Note the metrical pattern:
>
> U-U U-U || U-U -U
>
> (where U represents an unstressed syllable and - a stress;
> || is the caesura)
>
> Now here's my question: What is the name of a U-U foot?
> The books don't even admit it exists; it's not an iamb
> or a dactyl or a trochee or an anapest or a spondee. I
> tried five different references, and those are the only
> five feet they mentions.
>
> Second, can anyone think of another folk song using
> that meter? The closest I've found is in Kinloch's _Ballad
> Book_ (#XXII):
>
> First there cam whipmen, and that not a few,
> And there cam bonnetmen following the pleugh
>
> Any other suggestions?
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 1078 Colne Street
> Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
> 651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

So Dick, are we really losing Mudcat? You may be swamped with similar
requests for info, but you're the only person I know to ask,Best,
John

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:26:43 -0500, John Roberts wrote:>So Dick, are we really losing Mudcat? You may be swamped with similar
>requests for info, but you're the only person I know to ask,I'm not Dick, but I'm one of the volunteer administrators at Mudcat.
John, if you're referring to the current Mud-outage, the servers appear to
have taken a bit of a holiday.  Max Speigel, who is responsible for Mudcat,
is away for the weekend and a bit more - probably until Tue or Wed.  The
servers won't get re-booted until he returns.Jeri Corlew

Aw, c'mon fellers. We're talking about FOLK SONG. There's no authority
that says something is or isn't OK--just a singer who sings it anyway
that feels right. The lyric that Mr Waltz asked about sings nicely to an
enormous number of jig tunes (try Larry O'Gaff or Top of Cork Road) as
well as many 3/4 tunes. As for missing unstressed syllables, this often
varies from verse to verse.Take "The Black Cook" as an example:verse 1. If you'll LIS-ten to Me I will Tell you a Story
verse 2.con-CER-ning a DOC-tor that LIVED in our TOWNTrying to overly formal is a Procrustean exercise, to say the least.dick greenhausJohn Garst wrote:> >On 11/26/01, John Garst wrote:
> >
> >>>And then came black Phyllis, his charger astride,
> >>
> >>Anapaestic will an incomplete initial foot (missing the first
> >>unstressed syllable)?
> >
> >Is that allowed? That is, can it be called "anapestic" if it
> >is missing a syllable? (Serious question.)
>
> I think so (notice the uncertainty).
> --
> john garst    [unmask]