I've long been mystified by "The Fox went out on a moonlight
night". There are two early versions in Rossell H. Robbins'
'Secular Lyrics of the 14th and 15th Centuries' (#48, 49), but
I've seen no reference to any version of the 16th through 18th
centuries, with the possible exception of a version in the Madden
collection, listed in Steve Roud's folksong index (Roud #131).
I didn't eliminate duplicate traditional copies in Steve's index,
but there are about a 100 total traditional versions listed. Also
listed is:<a
href="http://Levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record
=047.029.000&pages=2">Click for Levy collection copy, page 1</a><a
href="http://Levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record
=047.029.001&pages=2">Click for Levy collection copy, page 2</a>"Larry O'Gaff" is another nice tune, but as in the case of
"Greensleeves" and "Soldier's Joy" the original song to the tune
is wretched, and no traditional singer has ever been been known
to sing the song (or the two others mentioned here).Bruce Olson
--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

Hi!        Here I am again! This week I have found 3 of the 5 volumes of
the Dover edition of Child.        Auction #1468094783 - volume I
        Auction #1468106040 - volume III
        Auction #1468101175 - volume IV        The dealer does not have the other 2 volumes. Reserve has
already been met on all three. Interestingly, volume IV seems to be
bringing the most activity.        If anyone is interested in old vinyl, three volumes of the
Caedmon Folksongs of Britain record set are up for auction. They are
volumes 2 (Songs of Seduction), 4 & 5 (Child Ballads). The auction
numbers are 1468886252, 1468646289, 1468527954. Does anyone know
if this series has been released on CD?                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

The Caedmon series has been released in an augmented form by Rounder as
Classic Ballads of Britain v. 1 and v.2.    More complete versions; fewer
fragments. It's a nice re-remastering job  ($12.98 each at CAMSCO
Music--800/548-FOLK)dick greenhausDolores Nichols wrote:> Hi!
>
>         Here I am again! This week I have found 3 of the 5 volumes of
> the Dover edition of Child.
>
>         Auction #1468094783 - volume I
>         Auction #1468106040 - volume III
>         Auction #1468101175 - volume IV
>
>         The dealer does not have the other 2 volumes. Reserve has
> already been met on all three. Interestingly, volume IV seems to be
> bringing the most activity.
>
>         If anyone is interested in old vinyl, three volumes of the
> Caedmon Folksongs of Britain record set are up for auction. They are
> volumes 2 (Songs of Seduction), 4 & 5 (Child Ballads). The auction
> numbers are 1468886252, 1468646289, 1468527954. Does anyone know
> if this series has been released on CD?
>
>                                 Dolores
>
> --
> Dolores Nichols                 |
> D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
> Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>         --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

>...how many of them are
>actually "Frankie Silvers"None.>or "Leaving Home"?)Some, but what's the objection?  It is part of the Frankie song canon.
--
john garst    [unmask]

At 5:04 PM -0400 9/27/01, Dolores Nichols wrote:
> Does anyone know if this series has been released on CD?        At least 3 CDs on Rounder are drawn from the series.1.] Classic Ballads of Britain and Ireland: Vol. 1 [Rounder 1775]
2.] Classic Ballads of Britain and Ireland: Vol. 2 [Rounder 1776]
3.] Songs of Seduction [Rounder 1778]Because of the gap in numbers I presume the is at least one more, Rounder
1777, that has been issued though I have not seen anything else. All 2000
copyright.Cliff

On 9/27/01, John Garst wrote:>>...how many of them are
>>actually "Frankie Silvers"
>
>None.
>
>>or "Leaving Home"?)
>
>Some, but what's the objection?  It is part of the Frankie song canon."Leaving Home" is *not* a version of Frankie and Johnny. It's a
composed song based on those two names.And even if you ignore that, it's *still* bad methodology.
Counting the versions assembled in a monograph and comparing
that with the versions counted in a general sweep of Child
ballads is comparing apples and oranges. The only way to
compare the popularity of songs is to use a "polling" method.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Dolores:Yes, the series ex: Caedmon has been released on CD.  It is on Rounder.EdOn Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Dolores Nichols wrote:> Hi!
>
>         Here I am again! This week I have found 3 of the 5 volumes of
> the Dover edition of Child.
>
>         Auction #1468094783 - volume I
>         Auction #1468106040 - volume III
>         Auction #1468101175 - volume IV
>
>         The dealer does not have the other 2 volumes. Reserve has
> already been met on all three. Interestingly, volume IV seems to be
> bringing the most activity.
>
>         If anyone is interested in old vinyl, three volumes of the
> Caedmon Folksongs of Britain record set are up for auction. They are
> volumes 2 (Songs of Seduction), 4 & 5 (Child Ballads). The auction
> numbers are 1468886252, 1468646289, 1468527954. Does anyone know
> if this series has been released on CD?
>
>                                 Dolores
>
> --
> Dolores Nichols                 |
> D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
> Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>         --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?
>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Bartlett" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: Greatest hits> Thanks, Norm!  Is Steve's database published or accesible? Jon
> >It can be purchased from him; you might contact him directly for more
information.  It grows regularly; it is presently up to about 120,000
entries from several hundred published or recorded sources.  He has a
companion broadside ballad index of about the same size.  His address is
[unmask]
Norm

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<"Leaving Home" is *not* a version of Frankie and Johnny. It's a
composed song based on those two names.>>It isn't?? Oh dear -- I've just burned it to a CD for Sunday's show. Hey, it
shares a lot of lyrics and a plot line with "Frankie and Johnny". As far as
its being composed, I'm not sure that precludes its being a version of a
traditional song. Every individual variant can be said to be "composed" by
the person who sang it; this was done by someone else, but I think it still
qualifies as part of "Frankie and Johnny".Peace,
Paul

On 9/28/01, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>
><<"Leaving Home" is *not* a version of Frankie and Johnny. It's a
>composed song based on those two names.>>
>
>It isn't?? Oh dear -- I've just burned it to a CD for Sunday's show. Hey, it
>shares a lot of lyrics and a plot line with "Frankie and Johnny". As far as
>its being composed, I'm not sure that precludes its being a version of a
>traditional song. Every individual variant can be said to be "composed" by
>the person who sang it; this was done by someone else, but I think it still
>qualifies as part of "Frankie and Johnny"."Leaving Home" was copyrighted 1923 by the Leighton Brothers and
Ren Shields (Shields, BTW, was also responsible for at least one
other Charlie Poole song, "Come Take a Trip in My Airship). If you
think about it, it shares neither melody nor *significant* lyrics
with "Frankie and Johnny" (at least the versions I know). The
links are all links of inspiration, not direct borrowing.The plots aren't really the same, either. In fact, one could
speculate that "Leaving Home" was inspired by an attempt to
purge "Frankie" of the adultery element. In "Frankie," the
motive for murder is adultery; in "Leaving Home," it is
abandonment. Yes, the abandonment may have been for sexual
reasons -- but this is nowhere stated.I'd consider "Leaving Home" part of the same "legend base"
as "Frankie and Johnny," and I think you could still use it
in your show (there are people who consider it "their" Frankie
and Johnny. I'm one of them, for that matter; I play "Leaving
Home" but don't bother with normal "Frankie" variants). But I think
we have to recognize it as a separate but related item.I suppose "Leaving Home" has about the same relationship to
"Frankie and Johnny" as "Tavern in the Town" has to "The Butcher
Boy" -- except that we know the names of the parties behind
"Leaving Home."
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

At 1:59 AM -0500 9/28/01, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>
><<"Leaving Home" is *not* a version of Frankie and Johnny. It's a
>composed song based on those two names.>>
>
>It isn't?? Oh dear -- I've just burned it to a CD for Sunday's show. Hey, it
>shares a lot of lyrics and a plot line with "Frankie and Johnny". As far as
>its being composed, I'm not sure that precludes its being a version of a
>traditional song. Every individual variant can be said to be "composed" by
>the person who sang it; this was done by someone else, but I think it still
>qualifies as part of "Frankie and Johnny".
>
>Peace,
>PaulIn his dissertation, Buckley certainly considers it to be part of the
Frankie/Albert/Johnny saga.--
john garst    [unmask]

>"Leaving Home" is *not* a version of Frankie and Johnny. It's a
>composed song based on those two names.
>
>And even if you ignore that, it's *still* bad methodology.
>Counting the versions assembled in a monograph and comparing
>that with the versions counted in a general sweep of Child
>ballads is comparing apples and oranges. The only way to
>compare the popularity of songs is to use a "polling" method.I think I can guarantee that whatever reasonable method might be
used, it will be found that Frankie has been, at some time, and over
some time, better known than The House Carpenter.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 9/28/01, John Garst wrote:>>"Leaving Home" is *not* a version of Frankie and Johnny. It's a
>>composed song based on those two names.
>>
>>And even if you ignore that, it's *still* bad methodology.
>>Counting the versions assembled in a monograph and comparing
>>that with the versions counted in a general sweep of Child
>>ballads is comparing apples and oranges. The only way to
>>compare the popularity of songs is to use a "polling" method.
>
>I think I can guarantee that whatever reasonable method might be
>used, it will be found that Frankie has been, at some time, and over
>some time, better known than The House Carpenter.Oh, probably. But it's important that -- if we're going to do
something statistical like this -- we use proper methods.If we don't, we might have a Florida Election-style result.The key fact here is that such things HAVE happened. People
have disputed whether "Barbara Allen" or "Our Goodman" is
the most popular Child Ballad. They both point to statistical
counts to prove their points. But their counts are not
comparing comparable entities.I don't know which is more popular. I know that we have to
use a balanced method if we want to find out. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

The usual interpretation of "The captain said to John Henry, I'm
gonna bring me a steam drill 'round" and "John Henry said to the
captain, A man ain't nothin' but a man" seems to be that the
"captain" is John Henry's immediate boss on the job.  Certainly that
idea fits with tradition on sourthern work crews.However, another interpretation is now possible.Frederick Yeamans Dabney, the chief engineer for the C & W during the
construction of the line in 1886-88, rose from Third Lieutenant to
Captain during the course of the Civil War.  Thereafter he was known
as "Captain Dabney."If John Henry Dabney was born ca 1860 on the Thomas Dabney's
plantation, Burleigh, halfway between Raymond and Crystal Springs,
MS, or in that vicinity, he might have become a mature and skilled
steel driver by the early 1880s.  By that time Captain Dabney was
well entrenched as a civil engineer.  He lived in Crystal Springs.
He or his men might well have trained John Henry as a steel driver.
It would then be natural that John Henry would have worked for
Captain Dabney wherever the Captain's jobs took him, including Coosa
and Oak Mountains, AL.The lines quoted above can now be seen as parts of a conversation
between Captain Dabney, the chief engineer, in charge of design and
construction, and his skilled and trusted steel driver, John Henry
Dabney.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>I don't know which is more popular. I know that we have to
>use a balanced method if we want to find out. :-)Where it's a close call, why do we want to know?ORWhere it's a close call, is it knowable?
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 9/28/01, John Garst wrote:>>I don't know which is more popular. I know that we have to
>>use a balanced method if we want to find out. :-)
>
>Where it's a close call, why do we want to know?
>
>OR
>
>Where it's a close call, is it knowable?Ultimately, we *can't* know the answer, because we don't know how
many versions have perished without being recorded. But we still
need a balanced method to know what's a close call.I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. "Barbara Allen" and
"Our Goodman" may well be the two most popular Child ballads
of all time. If so, then it probably is pointless to try to
determine which is more popular. But how do we *know* they are
the most popular, until we have a fair test?--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Dear All,I'm confused. Are we looking for greatest hits, or greatest number of
variants? The two are not the same.A hit is purely and simply a popular - the most popular - song. It
cannot be bolstered by other songs of the same origin which are anything
from a tiddly bit to massively different. In fact, some of what makes it
a hit is the fact that it is PREFERRED to other versions of the same
song.To make things even more complicated... and it won't do here, I fear...
it hitteth in the singing of it, so that while American Pie might be
better performed and interpreted by one performer, it might be less
perfectly but more popularly performed by another - no names mentioned.Thirdly, I suspect that we are probably not the best people to be making
the decisions on popularity. Hardly unbiased, heh? Perhaps, to make this
fun little string actually worth something, we ought to be asking a
wider, more casual audience.But that's all right. It's harmless enough fun!Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andy Rouse" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 2:33 AM
Subject: Re: Greatest hits> Dear All,
>
> I'm confused. Are we looking for greatest hits, or greatest number of
> variants? The two are not the same.I agree. This is a fun thread with no definitive answers. But it seems to me
that "greatest hits" means the most popular folk songs or ballads, the kind
ordinary people relate to and know. So the most popular versions of "Froggie
Went A-Courting", "The Fox Went Out on a Chilly Night", "Barbara Ellen",
etc. qualify as "greatest hits". It seems that the "scholarly" approach is
coming up with more and more esoteric items that somehow qualify from some
academic standard or other but that ordinary people wouldn't have a clue
about.This is not a putdown of the scholarly; in fact, the original item in the
thread stated that this was a strange request and probably didn't make any
sense.>
> A hit is purely and simply a popular - the most popular - song. It
> cannot be bolstered by other songs of the same origin which are anything
> from a tiddly bit to massively different. In fact, some of what makes it
> a hit is the fact that it is PREFERRED to other versions of the same
> song.
>
> But that's all right. It's harmless enough fun!> AndyI've enjoyed the discussion, and it has led me to think seriously again
about what is popular among "the people" and what is popular among "the
scholars" and wondering if ever the twain shall meet.Lorne Brown

<<I'm confused. Are we looking for greatest hits, or greatest number of
variants? The two are not the same.A hit is purely and simply a popular - the most popular - song. It
cannot be bolstered by other songs of the same origin which are anything
from a tiddly bit to massively different. In fact, some of what makes it
a hit is the fact that it is PREFERRED to other versions of the same
song.To make things even more complicated... and it won't do here, I fear...
it hitteth in the singing of it, so that while American Pie might be
better performed and interpreted by one performer, it might be less
perfectly but more popularly performed by another - no names mentioned.>>The original question was a search for the songs that are perennials in
tradition, showing up over and over again in far-flung corners. Say, "Four
Nights Drunk/Our Goodman", which is everywhere in the English-speaking
world, Anglo- and Afro-American traditions both.Peace,
Paul

On 9/30/01, Paul Stamler wrote (though I'm answering mostly the
quoted parts):><<I'm confused. Are we looking for greatest hits, or greatest number of
>variants? The two are not the same.We should note, on this topic, that while greatest number of
variants does not represent greatest popularity, it is, for
traditional song, the only measure of popularity we have.Which basically means that we can't prove how popular a song was. :-)>A hit is purely and simply a popular - the most popular - song. It
>cannot be bolstered by other songs of the same origin which are anything
>from a tiddly bit to massively different. In fact, some of what makes it
>a hit is the fact that it is PREFERRED to other versions of the same
>song.Now here I'm getting confused. It seems to me that this confuses
"songs" with "versions," but I can't really tell how because I can't
tell how the terms are used.>To make things even more complicated... and it won't do here, I fear...
>it hitteth in the singing of it, so that while American Pie might be
>better performed and interpreted by one performer, it might be less
>perfectly but more popularly performed by another - no names mentioned.>>
>
>The original question was a search for the songs that are perennials in
>tradition, showing up over and over again in far-flung corners. Say, "Four
>Nights Drunk/Our Goodman", which is everywhere in the English-speaking
>world, Anglo- and Afro-American traditions both.Which actually does suggest another measure of popularity: Widespread
distribution. But I find I don't trust that. A sea song, with no real
popularity outside ships, would inherently spread more than a song
with no such reason for transportation.They're both clues. There are no answers.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Perhaps I should have attached a note to my Child ballad list to the effect
that such a sampling, though systematic in the sense that Bob W. advocates,
reflects both the degree of widespread occurence of the respective ballads
and also the perseverence of the collector(s) in seeking those particular
songs out and recording/inditing them.  My feeling, tho, is that when
looking at a set of field collections for relative numbers of different
Child ballads, one can assume the same degree of reliability among
collectors.  I would be less comfortable about making that assertion when
comparing Child ballads to later songs or ballads, e.g., Frankie & Johnny.
The discussion regarding the appropriateness of including "Leaving Home"
(copyrighted, BTW, 1912, not 1923, I believe) turns on whether we are
examining the popularity of a story or of a song.  The same issues spring up
with "Omie Wise"/"Naomi Wise" or with the various distinct ballads about
"Pearl Bryan."  But all this may be too much nitpicking to be of interest.
Norm Cohen

W. T. Blankenship authored/printed/published the Blankenship
broadside, "John Henry, The Steel Driving Man," ca 1900.William Thomas Blankenship (1875-1946) was born and died in Franklin
County, VA.  One of his uncles was John Henry Blankenship
(1843-1909), who was born and died in Bedford Co, VA.  John Henry
Blankenship was a musician who sometimes played with his son's string
band.My inquiries have led to several bands of musical Blankenships.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Hi John-
In your studies, have you come across any song  or ballad reference to
the Noakes murders (also popularly refered to as the "Babes in the Woods"
case? Pennsylvania, 192?Any references wou;d be much appreciateddick greenhaus.John Garst wrote:> W. T. Blankenship authored/printed/published the Blankenship
> broadside, "John Henry, The Steel Driving Man," ca 1900.
>
> William Thomas Blankenship (1875-1946) was born and died in Franklin
> County, VA.  One of his uncles was John Henry Blankenship
> (1843-1909), who was born and died in Bedford Co, VA.  John Henry
> Blankenship was a musician who sometimes played with his son's string
> band.
>
> My inquiries have led to several bands of musical Blankenships.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

In surfing for things relevant to the C&O RR, I came across an item
on Church Hill Tunnel, Richmond, VA, which collapsed on a train on
October 2, 1925, killing Thomas F. Mason, Engineer; Benjamin F.
Mosby, Fireman; R. Lewis, tunnel worker; and H. Smith, tunnel worker.http://www.multimania.com/fdelaitre/Richmond.htmThe site includes these lines:Remember the Church Hill Tunnel
Near a mile under Richmond.
There's a story I want to tell you
Of a train that'll never be foundBrothers keep shovellin'
Pickin' in the ground,
Brothers, keep listening.
For the train that's never been found.Does this ring any bells with anyone?
--
john garst    [unmask]

> In your studies, have you come across any song or ballad reference to
> the Noakes murders (also popularly refered to as the "Babes in the Woods"
> case? Pennsylvania, 192?As it happens I saw a comic-book treatment of this in the Stewartry
Museum in Kircudbright this morning - one man murders another because
he won't join him in the awful deed, then goes on to murder two children?
They have two illustrations on display from what seems to be a series.
But the style looked more like the 1880s than the 1920s.  I think there
was a snippet of rhyme underneath each picture, so if the images form a
whole story there will also be a whole ballad.The museum is at (+44) 1557 331 643, no email as far as I know.Is there any connection between this and the country dance tune "Babes
in the Wood", printed in Kerr's first collection around 1880?=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

>John Henry's drill, the one he was driving in when he collapsed and
>died, is still sticking in the rock outside the east portal of Oak
>Mountain Tunnel, Shelby County, Alabama, according to a story and
>photograph published in the Central of Georgia Magazine, Savannah,
>GA, October, 1930.  Unfortunately, the photograph is obviously
>doctored - it looks like someone outlined the drill in black ink,
>perhaps to make it more visible - alternatively, perhaps the drill
>was simply drawn in.And perhaps there was no doctoring.  I now have a 400 dpi scan of the
photograph from the magazine, and when I zoom in on the drill I see
no indications of lines having been drawn in.  I now suspect that the
pecular appearance of the drill is an artifact of the halftone
process....>This article is probably the first publication of verses collected
>by Peter A. Brannon, at one point the director of the Alabama State
>Department of Archives and History (or whatever its proper title
>might be or have been).  Aside from a first-verse reference to the
>Central of Georgia Rail Road (instead of the C&O), there is another
>curiosity.
>
>Stanza 2:
>
>Jawn Henry hammered in th' mountains,
>And blows from his shoulder did rain,
>Hung his hammer on a little blue point,
>Sayin' 'Lord, I'se a steel drivin' man.'
>
>Can someone interpret the third line of this verse?
>
>(I can't.  I  have additional information that might or might not be
>relevant, but I thought I'd give others a try before revealing
>something that might prejudice thought.)Additional relevant (?) information:(1) Blankenship broadside, stanza 8,They carried John Henry to the mountains,
 From his shoulder his hammer would ring,
She caught on fire by a little blue blaze
I believe these old mountains are caving in.Johnson states that Blankenship's stanza 8 occurs nowhere else in
versions he is aware of.  Brannon's stanza 2 is close enough, I
think, to be counted as at least a partial occurrence of
Blankenship's stanza 8.  Brannon's version was published after
Johnson's book.(2) John Henry's woman's dress if often blue, rhyming with "...true to you."(3) Blue Hole Tunnel, near Gauley, WV, was put through in 1871-72, at
the same time as Great (Big) Bend and 8 others on the C&O Road under
construction.  I found a list of 55 tunnels on the C&O road that was
sent to Guy B. Johnson by C. W. Johns in the late 1920s.  15 of these
were built or modified in 1868-1874.  Also near Gauley, WV, is Big
Ledge Tunnel.The color of the woman's dress is irrelevant, I think.  It seems to
be chosen for the rhyme it makes, and since similar verses appear in
other songs, it is not certain that they "belong" to "John Henry."To me, the lines about the "little blue point" and "little blue
blaze" are rather strange.  Taking this together with the fact that
Blue Hole Tunnel was put through on the C&O Road at the same time as
Big Bend leads me to wonder about the possibility that John Henry did
his thing at Blue Hole, Blue Hole was named in early versions
(unrecovered), "Blue Hole" got changed to "Big Bend" because the
latter is so much more famous (and perhaps through some confusion
between Blue Hole and Big Ledge Tunnels, which are very close to one
another - I can imagine the transformation "Blue Hole" -> "Big Ledge"
by simple confusion and "Big Ledge" -> "Big Bend" by a combination of
prompting by "Big" and the fame of Big Bend.  At the same time, these
"little blue" things could be residues of the original "Blue Hole."
--
john garst    [unmask]

On Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 09:39:25AM -0400, John Garst wrote:> >John Henry's drill, the one he was driving in when he collapsed and
> >died, is still sticking in the rock outside the east portal of Oak        [ ... ]> And perhaps there was no doctoring.  I now have a 400 dpi scan of the
> photograph from the magazine, and when I zoom in on the drill I see
> no indications of lines having been drawn in.  I now suspect that the
> pecular appearance of the drill is an artifact of the halftone
> process.        Older Xerox systems would tend to build up dark lines at the
outer perihphery of solid black areas, and fade the interior to a much
lighter color.  That was eliminated when the photocopy machines started
to include built-in halftone screens of some form or other -- or perhaps
insulated zones in the photosentitive imager roll.        [ ... ]> >Jawn Henry hammered in th' mountains,
> >And blows from his shoulder did rain,
> >Hung his hammer on a little blue point,
> >Sayin' 'Lord, I'se a steel drivin' man.'        [ ... ]> She caught on fire by a little blue blaze
> I believe these old mountains are caving in.        Just some thoughts here.  Tempered steel, such as a drill, would
have been rendered with a blue oxide coating by the heat treatment.
(The point would have been quite hard, but the end which he struck would
have been tempered to a much softer level, to minimize the danger of
hard chips breaking off and hitting people.  This is standard practice
with similar tools like chisels to this day -- the cutting end is
hardened, and the striking end is softer.  When the steel is hardened,
it is first heated to a red hot, and then quenched in some liquid
appropriate to the alloy.  At this point, it is maximally hard
throughout.  Then, it is polished and heated to a lower temperature, and
the hardness is judged by the color.  (The polishing is to give a
surface which displays the color to best effect.)  A light straw is
still very hard (as appropriate for the cutting end), while a deep blue
is down to a spring temper, which is probably about right for the
striking end.  Quite often the process of tempering a device such as
this is to heat the striking end, while watching the play of colors at
the cutting end.  When they reach the desired straw color, the whole bar
is re-quenched, to stop the changes, leaving the point hard (but not
brittle), and the striking end much softer.  Thus, (at least with a
newly prepared drill, which would seem appropriate for the contest), he
would be aiming for a small blue colored end of the rod.        Does this make sense to anyone else?--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

At 3:48 PM -0400 9/3/01, DoN. Nichols wrote:
...
>         Just some thoughts here.  Tempered steel, such as a drill, would
>have been rendered with a blue oxide coating by the heat treatment.
>(The point would have been quite hard, but the end which he struck would
>have been tempered to a much softer level, to minimize the danger of
>hard chips breaking off and hitting people ... Thus, (at least with a
>newly prepared drill, which would seem appropriate for the contest), he
>would be aiming for a small blue colored end of the rod.
>
>         Does this make sense to anyone else?Yes.  Great thought.  Thank you.In this context, it seems to me that"Hung his hammer on a little blue point"would have to be a slight mis-statement of something else, perhaps"Swung his hammer...."
--
john garst    [unmask]

Don, John:I looked earlier in my half dozen slang dictionaries and in Mitford
Mathews' 2 vol. Dictionary of Americanisms (on Historical Principles) and
could find no defifintion of  "blue point" other than an oyster.Ed

Hello all,This ballad has been going through my head lately.  I learned it as a teen
when the romantic nature of the story appealed to me.  Now I sing it mostly
for the tune.My question to the group is:  does anyone know the lyrics to the verse that
Loreena McKinnet sings in her rendition of the song?  I learned my version
from Owen McBride.  His last two verses go from:"They both sat down upon the bed all for the space of one half hour..."to:"The Lord discoursed with his daughter fair one night alone in her
bed-chamber..."I have always found the transition between these two parts of the story
abrupt.  In Loreena's version, she sings a verse to bridge the gap.  Her
verse is something about all the 'dukes and earls' the lady has refused in
favour of Matt Hyland.  Anyone know the verse?Another thing; does anyone know if her verse is traditional, or if she or
someone wrote it to make the transition in the story smoother?ThanksMoira-----------------
CeltArctic Music
Moira Cameron & Steve Goff
4505 Schooldraw Ave
Yellowknife, NT; X1A 2K3
(867) 920-2464

Hi Moira!Don't know how Loreena McKinnet sings 'Matt Hyland'.  I learned it about
1970 from a lovely singer from Loughrae, Co. Galway, Ireland named Tony
Callanan.Tony sang it...There was a lord lived in the North who had a very lovely daughter
She was courted by a handsome man who was a servant to her father
But when her parents came to know they swore they'd ban him from the island
The maid she knew her heart would break had she to part with youg Mat HylandSo straightaway to her love she went and then into her room to wake him
Saying rise my love and go away this very night you will be taken
I overheard my parents say in spite of me they would transport you
So rise my love and go away I wish to God I'd gone before youThey both sat down upon the bed all for the sight of one another
And not one word did either speak till down her cheeks the tears did shower
She lay her head upon his breast around his neck her arms entwined then
Not a duke nor lord nor earl I'll wed.  I'll wait for you my own Mat HylandHow can I go away my love?  How can I leave without my wages?
Without one penny of my own just like some low and lonesome vagrant
Here's 20 guineas in bright gold.  That's far much more than father owes
you.
So take it love and go away.  You know right well I do adore youThe lord conversed with his daughter fair one night above in her bed chamber
I'll give you leave to bring him back since there's no one can win your
favour
She wrote a letter then in haste for him her heart was still repining
They brought him back, to the church they went and made a lord of young Mat
HylandA very old (1820s) printed version is at
http://erl.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=2806+c.18(344)&id=
14343.gif&seq=1&size=0The versions I've heard do not seem to have a tremendous amount of textual
(or melodic) variation.All the best,
Dan MIlner> Hello all,
>
> This ballad has been going through my head lately.  I learned it as a teen
> when the romantic nature of the story appealed to me.  Now I sing it
mostly
> for the tune.
>
> My question to the group is:  does anyone know the lyrics to the verse
that
> Loreena McKinnet sings in her rendition of the song?  I learned my version
> from Owen McBride.  His last two verses go from:
>
> "They both sat down upon the bed all for the space of one half hour..."
>
> to:
>
> "The Lord discoursed with his daughter fair one night alone in her
> bed-chamber..."
>
> I have always found the transition between these two parts of the story
> abrupt.  In Loreena's version, she sings a verse to bridge the gap.  Her
> verse is something about all the 'dukes and earls' the lady has refused in
> favour of Matt Hyland.  Anyone know the verse?
>
> Another thing; does anyone know if her verse is traditional, or if she or
> someone wrote it to make the transition in the story smoother?
>
> Thanks
>
> Moira
>
> -----------------
> CeltArctic Music
> Moira Cameron & Steve Goff
> 4505 Schooldraw Ave
> Yellowknife, NT; X1A 2K3
> (867) 920-2464

Hi-
The long-awaited Cyril Tawney CD "Navy Cuts" has made an appearance. $18 at
CAMSCO ([unmask])

Dan Milner wrote:
>
> Hi Moira!
>
> Don't know how Loreena McKinnet sings 'Matt Hyland'.  I learned it about
> 1970 from a lovely singer from Loughrae, Co. Galway, Ireland named Tony
> Callanan.
>
> Tony sang it...
>
> There was a lord lived in the North who had a very lovely daughter
> She was courted by a handsome man who was a servant to her father
> But when her parents came to know they swore they'd ban him from the island
> The maid she knew her heart would break had she to part with youg Mat Hyland
>
> So straightaway to her love she went and then into her room to wake him
> Saying rise my love and go away this very night you will be taken
> I overheard my parents say in spite of me they would transport you
> So rise my love and go away I wish to God I'd gone before you
>
> They both sat down upon the bed all for the sight of one another
> And not one word did either speak till down her cheeks the tears did shower
> She lay her head upon his breast around his neck her arms entwined then
> Not a duke nor lord nor earl I'll wed.  I'll wait for you my own Mat Hyland
>
> How can I go away my love?  How can I leave without my wages?
> Without one penny of my own just like some low and lonesome vagrant
> Here's 20 guineas in bright gold.  That's far much more than father owes
> you.
> So take it love and go away.  You know right well I do adore you
>
> The lord conversed with his daughter fair one night above in her bed chamber
> I'll give you leave to bring him back since there's no one can win your
> favour
> She wrote a letter then in haste for him her heart was still repining
> They brought him back, to the church they went and made a lord of young Mat
> Hyland
>
> A very old (1820s) printed version is at
> http://erl.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/acwwweng/ballads/image.pl?ref=2806+c.18(344)&id=
> 14343.gif&seq=1&size=0
>
> The versions I've heard do not seem to have a tremendous amount of textual
> (or melodic) variation.
>
> All the best,
> Dan MIlner
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > This ballad has been going through my head lately.  I learned it as a teen
> > when the romantic nature of the story appealed to me.  Now I sing it
> mostly
> > for the tune.
> >
> > My question to the group is:  does anyone know the lyrics to the verse
> that
> > Loreena McKinnet sings in her rendition of the song?  I learned my version
> > from Owen McBride.  His last two verses go from:
> >
> > "They both sat down upon the bed all for the space of one half hour..."
> >
> > to:
> >
> > "The Lord discoursed with his daughter fair one night alone in her
> > bed-chamber..."
> >
> > I have always found the transition between these two parts of the story
> > abrupt.  In Loreena's version, she sings a verse to bridge the gap.  Her
> > verse is something about all the 'dukes and earls' the lady has refused in
> > favour of Matt Hyland.  Anyone know the verse?
> >
> > Another thing; does anyone know if her verse is traditional, or if she or
> > someone wrote it to make the transition in the story smoother?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Moira
> >
> > -----------------
> > CeltArctic Music
> > Moira Cameron & Steve Goff
> > 4505 Schooldraw Ave
> > Yellowknife, NT; X1A 2K3
> > (867) 920-2464Steve Roud's folksong index lists only one traditional version, but also
lists a broadside copy in the Madden collection. Others can be found on
the Bodleian Ballads website by searching for 'Mat Hyland'.Bruce OlsonRoots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

So it seems these Blankenships were not related to the Blankenship family of
NC that recorded "I've Been Working on the RR" in 1931.  Do you assume these
Virginia Blankenships were white?
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 2:01 PM
Subject: John Henry Blankenship> W. T. Blankenship authored/printed/published the Blankenship
> broadside, "John Henry, The Steel Driving Man," ca 1900.
>
> William Thomas Blankenship (1875-1946) was born and died in Franklin
> County, VA.  One of his uncles was John Henry Blankenship
> (1843-1909), who was born and died in Bedford Co, VA.  John Henry
> Blankenship was a musician who sometimes played with his son's string
> band.
>
> My inquiries have led to several bands of musical Blankenships.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

At 11:21 AM 9/4/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>This ballad has been going through my head lately.  I learned it as a teen
>when the romantic nature of the story appealed to me.  Now I sing it mostly
>for the tune.
>
>My question to the group is:  does anyone know the lyrics to the verse that
>Loreena McKinnet sings in her rendition of the song?  I learned my version
>from Owen McBride.  His last two verses go from:
>
>"They both sat down upon the bed all for the space of one half hour..."
>
>to:
>
>"The Lord discoursed with his daughter fair one night alone in her
>bed-chamber..."
>
>I have always found the transition between these two parts of the story
>abrupt.  In Loreena's version, she sings a verse to bridge the gap.  Her
>verse is something about all the 'dukes and earls' the lady has refused in
>favour of Matt Hyland.  Anyone know the verse?
>
>Another thing; does anyone know if her verse is traditional, or if she or
>someone wrote it to make the transition in the story smoother?
>
>Thanks
>
>Moira>
>-----------------
>CeltArctic Music
>Moira Cameron & Steve Goff
>4505 Schooldraw Ave
>Yellowknife, NT; X1A 2K3
>(867) 920-2464
>Hello Moira,
     Here's a
good verse for you to put before the last one to bridge the gap:'Tis then these lovers severed were,
That he might elude transportation;
Since he was gone, perhaps fore'er,
Her sad heart knew no consolation;
As days passed by, she then began
To rome the groves alone and slighted;
And, in her grief, she cried aloud,
"Send back, send back my own Matt Hyland."     This verse comes from a version by Frank Harte.  So, use it if you
feel like it.  I'm sure Frank would have no objection.Regards,
Pat

        Hello Moira, and anyone else interested,     Last night, I sent a message which, I think did not get through to the
list.  I'll try again.Hello Moira,
     Here's a
good verse for you to put before the last one to bridge the gap:'Tis then these lovers severed were,
That he might elude transportation;
Since he was gone, perhaps fore'er,
Her sad heart knew no consolation;
As days passed by, she then began
To rome the groves alone and slighted;
And, in her grief, she cried aloud,
"Send back, send back my own Matt Hyland."     This verse comes from a version by Frank Harte.  So, use it if you
feel like it.  I'm sure Frank would have no objection.Regards,
Pat

Jack Campin wrote:
>
> > In your studies, have you come across any song or ballad reference to
> > the Noakes murders (also popularly refered to as the "Babes in the Woods"
> > case? Pennsylvania, 192?
>
> As it happens I saw a comic-book treatment of this in the Stewartry
> Museum in Kircudbright this morning - one man murders another because
> he won't join him in the awful deed, then goes on to murder two children?
> They have two illustrations on display from what seems to be a series.
> But the style looked more like the 1880s than the 1920s.  I think there
> was a snippet of rhyme underneath each picture, so if the images form a
> whole story there will also be a whole ballad.
>
> The museum is at (+44) 1557 331 643, no email as far as I know.
>
> Is there any connection between this and the country dance tune "Babes
> in the Wood", printed in Kerr's first collection around 1880?
>
> =================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================You haven't been ignored Jack. I think we just don't know about
any ballads having to do with the Noakes murder. There's nothing
in G. M Laws, Jr., 'Native American Balladry' about any such, nor
can I turn up anything in Steve Roud's folksong index.Knowing nothing about the subject, one has to resort to
speculation, for what that' worth. From the few facts
available it looks like the Noakes case material is to some
extent drawn from some source related to "The Children in the
Woods", original title, 1595, "The Norfolk Gentleman", (ZN1966 in
my broadside ballad index. Browse/Search on 'Norfolk Gentleman',
'Babes' and 'Children in the Wood' on the Bodleian Ballads
website for numerous copies, some of which claim it to be a true
story). Originally directed to be sung to "Rogero", a new tune
appeared for it in the early 18th century and that is #66 in C.
M. Simpson's 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music'
(broadside ballad tune B066 on my website is an ABC of it).There is a 3 verse lament based on it with the usual title, "The
Babes in the Wood", that has also become traditional. It's often
called a nursery song. Just when this first appeared I don't
know, but "Sweet Babes in the Wood" ("Founded on the well known
legend"!) in the Levy sheet music collection (early 19th
century?), box 30, item 109, is apparently a version
(bibliographical information given, but GIFS of text and tune not
yet available on the Levy Collection website). In Laws' book
cited above versions of the original ballad are referenced at at
Q34, and Laws noted the lament version but didn't reference
versions. Steve Roud's folksong index has both under Roud# 288.Versions of the original ballad remained suficiently popular that
there were plays and musicals and books drawing on it as early as
the 18th century. One such was a songbook (without music) 'Sweet
Robin: or, the Children in the Wood', published by J. Roach,
London, 1794, in which the ballad appears on page 3. This was
possibly inspired by Samuel Arnold's comic opera 'The Children in
the Wood', 1793. The Levy collection has other songs taken from
some stage production 'Sweet Babes in the Wood' (search on
'Babes' for these).Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

Bruce:I have to admit that this is one of my least favorite ballads.Otherwise I might have collected all the references/sites you did.But me, I only work with bawdy ballads.Nice research anyway.EdOn Wed, 5 Sep 2001, W. B. OLSON wrote:> Jack Campin wrote:
> >
> > > In your studies, have you come across any song or ballad reference to
> > > the Noakes murders (also popularly refered to as the "Babes in the Woods"
> > > case? Pennsylvania, 192?
> >
> > As it happens I saw a comic-book treatment of this in the Stewartry
> > Museum in Kircudbright this morning - one man murders another because
> > he won't join him in the awful deed, then goes on to murder two children?
> > They have two illustrations on display from what seems to be a series.
> > But the style looked more like the 1880s than the 1920s.  I think there
> > was a snippet of rhyme underneath each picture, so if the images form a
> > whole story there will also be a whole ballad.
> >
> > The museum is at (+44) 1557 331 643, no email as far as I know.
> >
> > Is there any connection between this and the country dance tune "Babes
> > in the Wood", printed in Kerr's first collection around 1880?
> >
> > =================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================
>
>
> You haven't been ignored Jack. I think we just don't know about
> any ballads having to do with the Noakes murder. There's nothing
> in G. M Laws, Jr., 'Native American Balladry' about any such, nor
> can I turn up anything in Steve Roud's folksong index.
>
> Knowing nothing about the subject, one has to resort to
> speculation, for what that' worth. From the few facts
> available it looks like the Noakes case material is to some
> extent drawn from some source related to "The Children in the
> Woods", original title, 1595, "The Norfolk Gentleman", (ZN1966 in
> my broadside ballad index. Browse/Search on 'Norfolk Gentleman',
> 'Babes' and 'Children in the Wood' on the Bodleian Ballads
> website for numerous copies, some of which claim it to be a true
> story). Originally directed to be sung to "Rogero", a new tune
> appeared for it in the early 18th century and that is #66 in C.
> M. Simpson's 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music'
> (broadside ballad tune B066 on my website is an ABC of it).
>
> There is a 3 verse lament based on it with the usual title, "The
> Babes in the Wood", that has also become traditional. It's often
> called a nursery song. Just when this first appeared I don't
> know, but "Sweet Babes in the Wood" ("Founded on the well known
> legend"!) in the Levy sheet music collection (early 19th
> century?), box 30, item 109, is apparently a version
> (bibliographical information given, but GIFS of text and tune not
> yet available on the Levy Collection website). In Laws' book
> cited above versions of the original ballad are referenced at at
> Q34, and Laws noted the lament version but didn't reference
> versions. Steve Roud's folksong index has both under Roud# 288.
>
> Versions of the original ballad remained suficiently popular that
> there were plays and musicals and books drawing on it as early as
> the 18th century. One such was a songbook (without music) 'Sweet
> Robin: or, the Children in the Wood', published by J. Roach,
> London, 1794, in which the ballad appears on page 3. This was
> possibly inspired by Samuel Arnold's comic opera 'The Children in
> the Wood', 1793. The Levy collection has other songs taken from
> some stage production 'Sweet Babes in the Wood' (search on
> 'Babes' for these).
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> --
> Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
> broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
> or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.
>

Hi Ballad List,
     I've sent a couple of messages to this list and have not gotten them
back as a listmember as I should.  So, this is just another test to see if
this one will come back to me.     Thanks for your patience.Regards,
Pat Holub

        Pat, your last two postings about Matt HIghland have gotten through.
I didn't know about that extra verse Frank had collected/written.  Thanks.

--- Pat Holub <[unmask]> wrote:
> Hi Ballad List,
>      I've sent a couple of messages to this list and
> have not gotten them
> back as a listmember as I should.  So, this is just
> another test to see if this one will come back to
me.You just need to send the server a command to get your
own messages back.Here's some of the commands:You  may leave  the list  at  any time  by sending  a
"SIGNOFF  BALLAD-L" command to
[unmask] You  can also tell
LISTSERV how you want it to  confirm the receipt of
messages you send  to the list. If you do  not trust
the system,  send a "SET  BALLAD-L REPRO"  command and
LISTSERV will send you  a copy of your own messages,
so  that you can
see that the  message was  distributed and  did not
get  damaged on  the way. After a while  you may find
that this is  getting annoying, especially  if your
mail program does not tell you  that the message is
from you when it informs you that new  mail has
arrived from BALLAD-L. If  you send a
"SET BALLAD-L  ACK   NOREPRO"  command,  LISTSERV
will  mail  you   a  short acknowledgement  instead,
which  will  look different  in  your  mailbox
directory. With most mail programs you will know
immediately that this is an  acknowledgement  you  can
 read  later. Finally,  you  can  turn  off
acknowledgements completely with "SET BALLAD-L NOACK
NOREPRO".__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
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Issue no. 6 (2000) of journal   _ESTUDOS DE LITERATURA ORAL_ (´´Studies in
Oral Literature´´) has come out recently (with a ´´certain´´ delay...).
        It contains 12 articles and 7 reviews. 5 of the articles are English:
        Velle ESPELAND,´´Oral Ballads as National Literature: The
Reconstruction of Two Norwegian Ballads´´;
        Simon FUREY, ´´Echoes of Empire: A Remnant of English in the Folk
Song of the Balearic Islands´´;
        Marjetka GOLEZ KAUCIC, ´´Typical Inter-Textual Aspects Between
Slovenian Folk Song and Contemporary Slovenian Poetry´´;
        Carlos RIBEIRO and Ana Paula GUIMARAES, ´´ ´Frost-Bitten Foot´:
Dialogues We Live By´´; and
        Josepha SHERMAN, ´´Gopher Guts and Army Trucks: The Modern
Evolution of Children's Folk Rhyms´´.
        Besides these articles in English, there are 4 articles in Spanish
(on Spanish ballads, and proverbs), and 3 in Portuguese (on Portuguese
and/or Spanish ballads and chansons de geste, and on Portuguese folksongs).
        This issue ends with 7 reviews. One of them is in English (on
Sephardic ballds), another one in Italian (on Italian music), another one
in Spanish (on Spanish ballads), and 4 are in Portuguese (on Portuguese
ballads and proverbs, and on Spanish folksongs).        PRICE (including post and package):
        Europe: US$ 14 (or equivalent); Other Countries: surface mail: US$
16 (or equivalent); air-mail: US$ 20 (or equivalent).        Should you be interestead in getting your copy, please send a
message to J. J. Dias Marques  <[unmask]> .        Please note also that _Estudos de Literatura Oral_ WELCOMES
ARTICLES AND REVIEWS on any genre of oral literature from any country.
Articles can have up to 20 pages; if larger, they should be split in order
to be published in several issues. Notes and reviews can have up to 5 pages
each.
        Accepted languages: English and all Romance languages.
        No. 7 (2001), which shoud be out by the beggining of next year, is
full. But you can send us your texts for nº 8 (2002).
        In order to know the editorial rules, please request them from J.
J. Dias Marques  <[unmask]> .===========================
J. J. Dias Marques
F. C. H. S. / Universidade do Algarve
Campus de Gambelas
8000-810 Faro / Portugal
Tel.: + 351 962651919
Fax: + 351 289818560
<[unmask]>
===========================

Issue no. 6 (2000) of journal _ESTUDOS DE LITERATURA ORAL_ (´´Studies in
Oral Literature´´) has come out recently (with a ´´certain´´ delay...).
 It contains 12 articles and 7 reviews. 5 of the articles are in English:
 Velle ESPELAND,´´Oral Ballads as National Literature: The Reconstruction
of Two Norwegian Ballads´´;
 Simon FUREY, ´´Echoes of Empire: A Remnant of English in the Folk Song
of the Balearic Islands´´;
 Marjetka GOLEZ KAUCIC, ´´Typical Inter-Textual Aspects Between Slovenian
Folk Song and Contemporary Slovenian Poetry´´;
 Carlos RIBEIRO and Ana Paula GUIMARAES, ´´ ´Frost-Bitten Foot´:
Dialogues We Live By´´; and
 Josepha SHERMAN, ´´Gopher Guts and Army Trucks: The Modern Evolution of
Children’s Folk Rhyms´´.
 Besides these articles in English, there are 4 articles in Spanish (on
Spanish ballads, and proverbs), and 3 in Portuguese (on Portuguese and/or
Spanish ballads and chansons de geste, and on Portuguese folksongs).
 This issue ends with 7 reviews. One of them is in English (on Sephardic
ballds), another one in Italian (on Italian music), another one in Spanish
(on Spanish ballads), and 4 are in Portuguese (on Portuguese ballads and
proverbs, and on Spanish folksongs). PRICE (including post and package):
 Europe: US$ 14 (or equivalent); Other Countries: surface mail: US$ 16
(or equivalent); air-mail: US$ 20 (or equivalent). Should you be interestead in getting your copy, please send a message to
J. J. Dias Marques  <[unmask]> . Please note also that _Estudos de Literatura Oral_ WELCOMES ARTICLES AND
REVIEWS on any genre of oral literature from any country. Articles can have
up to 20 pages; if larger, they should be split in order to be published in
several issues. Notes and reviews can have up to 5 pages each.
 Accepted languages: English and all Romance languages.
 No. 7 (2001), which shoud be out by the beggining of next year, is full.
But you can send us your texts for nº 8 (2002).
 In order to know the editorial rules, please request them from J. J.
Dias Marques  <[unmask]> .

Hi gang,I recently found this 78 in a store and purchased it on the basis of the
name Kipling whom I presume is
none other than Rudyard. Does anyone have info on the details of how the
collaboration of writing this piece came about? Better yet, other than the
four or so verses on the album, I've come across various references to
numerous other verses that exist but perhaps were too salty to publish.Can any one shed some light on this? Many thanks in advance,George (Jeff) Morgan

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I suspect that Frank Crumis, who was a more-or-less country singer from the
late 20's came across the verse (a common one by Rudyard) and set a tune to
it. Same idea as what Peter Bellamy did in the 60's.
If nobody posts the Kipling lyric, I'll dredge it out.dick greenhausGeorge Morgan wrote:> Hi gang,
>
> I recently found this 78 in a store and purchased it on the basis of the
> name Kipling whom I presume is
> none other than Rudyard. Does anyone have info on the details of how the
> collaboration of writing this piece came about? Better yet, other than the
> four or so verses on the album, I've come across various references to
> numerous other verses that exist but perhaps were too salty to publish.
>
> Can any one shed some light on this? Many thanks in advance,
>
> George (Jeff) Morgan

Ah! You've got a record by one of my favourites: Frank Crumit.Crumit was an American recording "star" in the 1920s and went on to have a
radio show in the 30s & 40s. His records are still available on CD, Naxos
having just released a bargain priced excellent compilation.He was best known for his humorous songs (which I still find funny, but
there's no accounting for taste) such as "What Kind of Noise Annoys an
Oyster?" His most famous recordings were "The Gay Caballero" and its sequel,
plus "Abdul Amir".He was one of the very first (maybe the first) commercial artists to tap
into folk music, and he recorded several folk songs and some folk stories.
I, and others, believe he actually paved the way for the later folk revival
of Ives, Seeger, Dyer-Bennet, et al.The song you mention is, indeed, taken from Kipling, minus a somewhat racist
verse and minus the ending which stressed the point that we are all the
equal. You can find it in any collection of Kipling. The music was composed
by Crumit - a lovely tune. I find myself often singing this song, usually to
myself, rarely in public, because of its beauty.Lorne Brown
The Ballad Project
Toronto----- Original Message -----
From: "George Morgan" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 1:37 PM
Subject: "I Learned About Women From Her" Crumit/Kipling> Hi gang,
>
> I recently found this 78 in a store and purchased it on the basis of the
> name Kipling whom I presume is
> none other than Rudyard. Does anyone have info on the details of how the
> collaboration of writing this piece came about? Better yet, other than the
> four or so verses on the album, I've come across various references to
> numerous other verses that exist but perhaps were too salty to publish.
>
> Can any one shed some light on this? Many thanks in advance,
>
> George (Jeff) Morgan

Jeff:Crumit, a popular recording artist for RCA ca. 1929 ff., had a habit of
taking bawdy songs from oral tradition ("The Gay Caballero"), cleaning
them up and recording them.  He was apparently very successful at it too.
"Caballero," according to David Ewen's history of popular music in the
U.S., sold 2 million copies.EdOn Sun, 9 Sep 2001, George Morgan wrote:> Hi gang,
>
> I recently found this 78 in a store and purchased it on the basis of the
> name Kipling whom I presume is
> none other than Rudyard. Does anyone have info on the details of how the
> collaboration of writing this piece came about? Better yet, other than the
> four or so verses on the album, I've come across various references to
> numerous other verses that exist but perhaps were too salty to publish.
>
> Can any one shed some light on this? Many thanks in advance,
>
> George (Jeff) Morgan
>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

No guarantees any of this is available, but:35.
Child, Francis James (Editor). ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH BALLADS, Vol. V.
Little, Brown and Co. 1840. Boston. 448p. 12mo. Burgundy cloth. Top edge
gilt.
Bottom left-hand corner waterstained, spine sunned and
chipped on bottom and top, corner wear, tight. Good. Bookseller
Inventory # 5886
Price: US$ 50.00 convert currency
Presented by California Collectible Books, Martinez, CA, U.S.A.                                                            For those
who are interested, there's a reasonably priced Vol. X of the original edition.40.
Francis James Child, Ed. English and Scottish Popular Ballads, Vol. X
Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co, 1898 VG Cloth Backed Boards. #722 of 1000;
Vol. 10 is index, corrections, glossary and resource list to the main
set of 9 Volumes. This is Volume 10 only. Some pages uncut. Bookseller
Inventory # 101041
Price: US$ 75.00 convert currency
Presented by TROUBADOUR BOOKS, N. Hatfield, MA, U.S.A.They also list some of the Dover edition, for those who are willing to
pay $95 and up.  Go to   http://www.abebooks.comand search on "F J Child", "Frances Child" and "Frances J Child" (their
search engine is a bit rudimentary).And can anyone tell me anything about this Constable edition?  Is it
selections from the Popular Ballads, or something else?  There are
several copies listed, including a numbered copy from a limited edition,
for $140 and up.49.
Child, Francis James. Some British Ballads.
Constable nd [1919]. 1st trade edition. 16 Tipped-in Colour Plates &
Drawings
By Arthur Rackham. 170pp, Cr 4to. Blue Cloth, Gilt Titles &
Illustration. Issued without a DW. A fair copy, internally quite good &
clean
with damp marking along top margins of some pages. Cloth rubbed
& soiled, Stained To Lower Cover. Contents shaken. Bookseller Inventory
# 3779
Price: US$ 135.90 convert currency
Presented by Derek Slavin - Rare & Collectable Books, Leamington Spa,
ENG, United Kingdom- Donald Duncan

On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 02:11:17PM -0400, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
>
> No guarantees any of this is available, but:
>
>
> 35.
> Child, Francis James (Editor). ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH BALLADS, Vol. V.
> Little, Brown and Co. 1840. Boston. 448p. 12mo. Burgundy cloth. Top edge
> gilt.
> Bottom left-hand corner waterstained, spine sunned and
> chipped on bottom and top, corner wear, tight. Good. Bookseller
> Inventory # 5886
> Price: US$ 50.00 convert currency
> Presented by California Collectible Books, Martinez, CA, U.S.A.
>
>
>                                                             For those
> who are interested, there's a reasonably priced Vol. X of the original edition.
>
>
> 40.
> Francis James Child, Ed. English and Scottish Popular Ballads, Vol. X
> Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co, 1898 VG Cloth Backed Boards. #722 of 1000;
> Vol. 10 is index, corrections, glossary and resource list to the main
> set of 9 Volumes. This is Volume 10 only. Some pages uncut. Bookseller
> Inventory # 101041
> Price: US$ 75.00 convert currency
> Presented by TROUBADOUR BOOKS, N. Hatfield, MA, U.S.A.
>
> They also list some of the Dover edition, for those who are willing to
> pay $95 and up.  Go to
>
>    http://www.abebooks.com
>
> and search on "F J Child", "Frances Child" and "Frances J Child" (their
> search engine is a bit rudimentary).I run a search on Ebay every day for copies of Child and other ballad
books. I have seen several copies of the single volume published around
1905 and individual volumes of various sets inc. Dover. The prices seem
to vary widely.Is there any interest in my posting notices when I do find such books
either here or to individuals via email? Since I am retired, I have more
time to roam Ebay than most folks.                                DoloresP.S. At the moment, there are no copies of Child out there.--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dolores:I for one think it a real service to the list were you to post your ebay
findings to ballad-l.  A list-serve is to do just that.While you are at it, do you think you could find a copy of ....EdOn Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Dolores Nichols wrote:> On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 02:11:17PM -0400, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
> >
> > No guarantees any of this is available, but:
> >
> >
> > 35.
> > Child, Francis James (Editor). ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH BALLADS, Vol. V.
> > Little, Brown and Co. 1840. Boston. 448p. 12mo. Burgundy cloth. Top edge
> > gilt.
> > Bottom left-hand corner waterstained, spine sunned and
> > chipped on bottom and top, corner wear, tight. Good. Bookseller
> > Inventory # 5886
> > Price: US$ 50.00 convert currency
> > Presented by California Collectible Books, Martinez, CA, U.S.A.
> >
> >
> >                                                             For those
> > who are interested, there's a reasonably priced Vol. X of the original edition.
> >
> >
> > 40.
> > Francis James Child, Ed. English and Scottish Popular Ballads, Vol. X
> > Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co, 1898 VG Cloth Backed Boards. #722 of 1000;
> > Vol. 10 is index, corrections, glossary and resource list to the main
> > set of 9 Volumes. This is Volume 10 only. Some pages uncut. Bookseller
> > Inventory # 101041
> > Price: US$ 75.00 convert currency
> > Presented by TROUBADOUR BOOKS, N. Hatfield, MA, U.S.A.
> >
> > They also list some of the Dover edition, for those who are willing to
> > pay $95 and up.  Go to
> >
> >    http://www.abebooks.com
> >
> > and search on "F J Child", "Frances Child" and "Frances J Child" (their
> > search engine is a bit rudimentary).
>
> I run a search on Ebay every day for copies of Child and other ballad
> books. I have seen several copies of the single volume published around
> 1905 and individual volumes of various sets inc. Dover. The prices seem
> to vary widely.
>
> Is there any interest in my posting notices when I do find such books
> either here or to individuals via email? Since I am retired, I have more
> time to roam Ebay than most folks.
>
>                                 Dolores
>
> P.S. At the moment, there are no copies of Child out there.
>
>
>
> --
> Dolores Nichols                 |
> D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
> Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
>         --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?
>

Lorne Brown <[unmask]> writes:> The song you mention is, indeed, taken from Kipling, minus a
> somewhat racist verseYou mean this one?  Then we was shifted to Neemuch
    (Or I might ha' been keeping her now),
  An' I took with a shiny she-devil,
    The wife of a nigger at Mhow;
  'Taught me the gipsy-folks' _bolee_;
    Kind o' volcano she were,
  For she knifed me one night 'cause I wished she was white,
    And I learned about women from 'er!Or  ...the things you will learn from the Yellow an' Brown,
    They'll 'elp you a lot with the White!If you think the other stanzas are not somewhat racist (not to mention
sexist & imperialist), you had better have a closer look.> and minus the ending which stressed the point that we are all the
> equal.More precisely, *they* (the ladies) are all equal:  When you get to a man in the case,
    They're like as a row of pins --
  For the Colnel's Lady an' Judy O'Grady
    Are sisters under their skins.I'm afraid there won't be much left of this song if anything is to be
left out on moral grounds.  It had better be enjoyed, and learned
from, as a frank statement about the wicked world by a wicked worldly
man long resting in peace.  For that purpose, I would certainly not
want to do without "she knifed me one night...", or even the smarmy "I
wouldn't do such, 'cause I liked 'er too much".The actual title of this poem is "The Ladies".  Kipling probably
intended it as a song; at any rate, it has been sung for a long time,
and probably to a good many tunes.  It is in my old _MIT Outing Club
Song Book_ (mid 1950s?), but I don't know what tune got it there.
--
---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  To do good is virtuous, and to wish good to be done is     :||
||:  amiable, but to wish to do good is as vain as it is vain.  :||

Thank you John for posting the text of the poem.  I have been looking for
it off and on for some years now with not much luck. It seems to have been
left out of the Kipling editions in my collection.Oddly enough, I first became aware of this poem in the early 60s in a film
entitled "Kipling's Women."  Essentially, the poem served as both plot and
dialogue.  While the words were recited, a red coated, pith helmeted,
calabash smoking soldier rode about on a bicycle encountering  sundry
flocks and bevies of young ladies in various states of undress.Has anyone else ever seen this film? Is it on video?  I certainly would not
want to spend a lot to own it, but  after forty years, would like to see it
again in case it had some cinematic value that I overlooked.Good songs to all  --  Tom

Hi!        Well - one volume of Child has just turned up on Ebay (Auction
#1465314163). It is volume VI of the 1860 edition with an opening price
of $9.99        Here are a few other books I found which might be of interest.        1465365679 - Folk Songs and Ballads of Scotland edited by
MacColl in 1965
        1464054428 - The Negro and His Folklore Published for the
American Folklore Society by the University of Texas Press in 1967.
        1464203365 - The Horn Book: Studies in Erotic Folklore by G.
Legman 1964
        1464052234 - Shantymen and Shantyboys by Doerflinger 1951 first
edition        There are also several copies of various books by Botkin.        I hope that someone finds something of interest/use among these.                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Dolores:Thank you.EdP.S. Say hello to Don.

Hi!        Well I've been searching thru Ebay again and have found a few
interesting items (including a couple I have questions about).        1466064042 - a single volume of Child 1857 edition. Not sure
which volume this is. Seller is obiously a bookdealer based on the
description. It is like reading the description of a musical instrument
written by an antique dealer instead of a musician.
        1466043430 & 1466640390 - copies of the single volume of Child
edited by Sargent & Kittredge, Both copies are from the 1932 printing.
        1466063654 - The Oxford Nursery Rhyme Book "assembled" by Iona &
Peter Opie in 1955. This includes a section on ballads.
        1466886353 - Nebraska Folklore
        1007320041 - Minstrelsy Ancient & Modern by Motherwell 1873
edition        Now the two items that I hope someone has informetion
concerning.        1465687221 - Ballads of Robin Hood & Other Outlaws edited by
Sidgwick in 1912
        1466938071 - Ballads of Ireland "collected & edited by Edward
Hayes" published in 1856        I hope that there is something here of use to some list
subscriber.                                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Hi folks:I'm in the process of preparing a radio program, and I have an odd question
to ask. What are the "Greatest Hits" of traditional music?The very concept, in some ways, is nonsensical; tradition has never been
about sales, or mass popularity, or any of the other things associated in
the commercial world with "hits". But someone's question, on another list a
year ago, stimulated the thought in me that there are songs and tunes that
traditional musicians keep coming back to over and over, even across
nationalities. Some classic examples would be the ballads "Barbara Allen"
and "The Twa Sisters", or "Frankie and Albert"; among tunes, "Flop-Eared
Mule" comes to mind (it's found across virtually the entire continent of
Europe under various names, plus across the USA and Canada).So what are these songs? I appeal to the collective expertise of the list;
I've come up with about fifteen perennials that pop up in tradition over and
over. They are (in no particular order):Frankie and Albert
Stackalee
Barbara Allen
Soldier's Joy
Flop-Eared Mule
The Twa Sisters
John Henry
John Hardy
The Outlandish Knight
The Devil and the Farmer's Wife
Four Nights Drunk (or five or seven or whatever)
The Cuckoo
The House Carpenter
The Golden Vanity
The Take This Hammer/Nine Pound Hammer/Spike Driver Blues clusterPlus one fragment that has inserted itself into the DNA of many other songs:Who's Gonna Shoe Your Pretty Little Foot?Further nominations are invited. Thanks in advance.Peace,
Paul

I notice your list is mainly ballads, but includes two instrumentals. I
suspect that you should have a second list for instrumental "hits", which
could include such as the Hangman's Reel and Old Joe Clark, etc.There is a Child ballad which actually gets played in shopping centres and
malls! Albeit only seasonly. I refer, of course, to the Cherry Tree Carol. I
don't know whether this could be an example of "crossover" but it sure does
get played in a lot of places and to a lot of people who wouldn't recognize
a traditional song if they tripped over it.And speaking of cherries, I Gave My Love a Cherry (which is also a Child
variant, or fragment) is one a lot of people know.Lorne Brown
The Ballad project
Toronto----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 12:11 PM
Subject: Greatest Hits> Hi folks:
>
> I'm in the process of preparing a radio program, and I have an odd
question
> to ask. What are the "Greatest Hits" of traditional music?
>

>I'm in the process of preparing a radio program, and I have an odd question
>to ask. What are the "Greatest Hits" of traditional music?
>...
>Further nominations are invited. Thanks in advance.I think that Delia/Delia's Gone has done very well.  It seems to have
9 lives.  Got started in the early 20th century, no doubt shortly
after the crime itself in 1900.  Commercially recorded in 1930s,
1950s.  A '50s by Blind Blake Alphonso Higgs appears to have inspired
the great-folk-scare crowd, all of whom (along with others they
influenced) recorded it in the 1960s/'70s.  Bob Dylan and Johnny Cash
recorded it in the '90s.  It goes on and on.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On 9/24/01, Paul Stamler wrote:>Hi folks:
>
>I'm in the process of preparing a radio program, and I have an odd question
>to ask. What are the "Greatest Hits" of traditional music?
>
>The very concept, in some ways, is nonsensical; tradition has never been
>about sales, or mass popularity, or any of the other things associated in
>the commercial world with "hits". But someone's question, on another list a
>year ago, stimulated the thought in me that there are songs and tunes that
>traditional musicians keep coming back to over and over, even across
>nationalities. Some classic examples would be the ballads "Barbara Allen"
>and "The Twa Sisters", or "Frankie and Albert"; among tunes, "Flop-Eared
>Mule" comes to mind (it's found across virtually the entire continent of
>Europe under various names, plus across the USA and Canada).Paul Stamler asked me for this off-list, but I'll post it on-list
for everyone's enjoyment (?).These are the top 47 ballads in the Ballad Index (why 47?
Because it's every song with 16 or more references; if I'd
gone to 15 or more references, I'd have had more than
fifty, which seemed excessive :-).We should note the standard Child Ballad Bias; they always get
more than their share just because everybody makes great haste
to include them. I think it safe to say that "Barbara Allen"
really is one of the top three ballads -- but I suspect that,
say, The Derby Ram (16 references) is actually more popular
than "Riddles Wisely Expounded" (17 references).This, BTW, is just the count of BOOK references; I haven't
yet bothered figuring in recordings. (I don't think I
*should*, either, until and unless we get a stronger base
of recordings.)REFS SONG
36  Bonny Barbara Allan [Child 84]
29  Lord Thomas and Fair Annet [Child 73]
28  Lady Isabel and the Elf Knight [Child 4]
28  Young Beichan [Child 53]
27  Daemon Lover, The (The House Carpenter) [Child 243]
27  Frankie and Albert [Laws I3]
27  Golden Vanity, The [Child 286]
27  Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard [Child 81]
25  Farmer's Curst Wife, The [Child 278]
25  Gypsy Laddie, The [Child 200]
25  Maid Freed from the Gallows, The [Child 95]
25  Twa Sisters, The [Child 10]
24  Lord Randal [Child 12]
23  Earl Brand [Child 7]
23  Frog Went A-Courting
22  Edward [Child 13]
22  John Henry [Laws I1]
22  Sir Hugh, or, The Jew's Daughter [Child 155]
21  Elfin Knight, The [Child 2]
21  Four Nights Drunk [Child 274]
21  Springfield Mountain [Laws G16]
21  Three Ravens, The [Child 26]
21  Wife of Usher's Well, The [Child 79]
21  Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin, The [Child 277]
20  Butcher Boy, The [Laws P24]
20  Fair Margaret and Sweet William [Child 74]
20  Girl I Left Behind, The [Laws P1A/B]
20  Jam on Gerry's Rock, The [Laws C1]
20  Lamkin [Child 93]
20  One Morning in May (To Hear the Nightingale Sing) [Laws P14]
19  Cruel Mother, The [Child 20]
19  Drowsy Sleeper, The [Laws M4]
19  Lord Lovel [Child 75]
19  Mary Hamilton [Child 173]
19  Streets of Laredo, The [Laws B1]
19  Young Hunting [Child 68]
18  Sweet Betsy from Pike [Laws B9]
17  Cherry-Tree Carol, The [Child 54]
17  Dowie Dens o Yarrow, The [Child 214]
17  Lass of Roch Royal, The [Child 76]
17  Mermaid, The [Child 289]
17  Riddles Wisely Expounded [Child 1]
16  A-Growing (He's Young But He's Daily A-Growing) [Laws O35]
16  Derby Ram, The
16  Jesse James (I) [Laws E1]
16  Sir Patrick Spens [Child 58]
16  Waly Waly (The Water is Wide)***In an aside -- do school and camp songs count? I suspect,
in recent years, that the most popular folks songs in the
world are "My Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Burning of
the School," "The Worms Crawl In," and maybe "This Land
is Your Land."
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Paul:Consider "Sweet Betsy from Pike," the tune probably used more than any
other in Anglo-American balladry.Then there is "Old Molly Hare," the tune for which Dietrich Buxtehude used
for an organ piece in the early 18th C.As for classic ballads, none other than "Barbara Allen" can approach "Our
Goodman/Four Nights Drunk," which Gus Meade said was THE most popular
Child ballad in the U.S.  My research would suggest he is right.Among hymns, "Amazing Grace," which was popular before it became a bagpipe
tune.What gospel songs?  Must be one or two or three...EdOn Mon, 24 Sep 2001, Paul Stamler wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> I'm in the process of preparing a radio program, and I have an odd question
> to ask. What are the "Greatest Hits" of traditional music?
>
> The very concept, in some ways, is nonsensical; tradition has never been
> about sales, or mass popularity, or any of the other things associated in
> the commercial world with "hits". But someone's question, on another list a
> year ago, stimulated the thought in me that there are songs and tunes that
> traditional musicians keep coming back to over and over, even across
> nationalities. Some classic examples would be the ballads "Barbara Allen"
> and "The Twa Sisters", or "Frankie and Albert"; among tunes, "Flop-Eared
> Mule" comes to mind (it's found across virtually the entire continent of
> Europe under various names, plus across the USA and Canada).
>
> So what are these songs? I appeal to the collective expertise of the list;
> I've come up with about fifteen perennials that pop up in tradition over and
> over. They are (in no particular order):
>
> Frankie and Albert
> Stackalee
> Barbara Allen
> Soldier's Joy
> Flop-Eared Mule
> The Twa Sisters
> John Henry
> John Hardy
> The Outlandish Knight
> The Devil and the Farmer's Wife
> Four Nights Drunk (or five or seven or whatever)
> The Cuckoo
> The House Carpenter
> The Golden Vanity
> The Take This Hammer/Nine Pound Hammer/Spike Driver Blues cluster
>
> Plus one fragment that has inserted itself into the DNA of many other songs:
>
> Who's Gonna Shoe Your Pretty Little Foot?
>
> Further nominations are invited. Thanks in advance.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

Bob:I have at least 12 versions unpublished of "Four Nights Drunk" (284) in my
collection.  And as many more published in songbooks, records and tapes
that neither Child nor Bronson ever saw.Ought to move that ballad up the scale, no?Ed

I'd add Streets of Laredo or St.James Infirmary in one form or another.  Also
among the most popular tunes seems to be Hop High Ladies or Uncle Joe or
McClouds Reel (all the same tune).  If you're really going international, one
of the most widespread songs is the "Mother, Who will I marry?" variety which
shows up from Scandinavia right down through the Balkans in hundreds of
versions, and The Immured Bride or Master Builder is a phenomenally
wide-spread ballad, which is closely linked with Long Lankin.- Mark Gilston

I believe Joe Hickerson has assembled well over 400 versions of "Our
Goodman." Never did write the thesis though.
        SandyEd Cray wrote:
>
> Bob:
>
> I have at least 12 versions unpublished of "Four Nights Drunk" (284) in my
> collection.  And as many more published in songbooks, records and tapes
> that neither Child nor Bronson ever saw.
>
> Ought to move that ballad up the scale, no?
>
> Ed

Paul:Number One -- with a bullet!EdOn Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Sandy Paton wrote:> I believe Joe Hickerson has assembled well over 400 versions of "Our
> Goodman." Never did write the thesis though.
>         Sandy
>
> Ed Cray wrote:
> >
> > Bob:
> >
> > I have at least 12 versions unpublished of "Four Nights Drunk" (284) in my
> > collection.  And as many more published in songbooks, records and tapes
> > that neither Child nor Bronson ever saw.
> >
> > Ought to move that ballad up the scale, no?
> >
> > Ed
>

Ed Cray wrote:<<Number One -- with a bullet!>>Naw, that would be "Frankie and Albert". "Our Goodman" is Number One -- with
a bottle.Peace,
Paul"A condom on a carrot I never saw before"

On 9/24/01, Ed Cray wrote:>Bob:
>
>I have at least 12 versions unpublished of "Four Nights Drunk" (284) in my
>collection.  And as many more published in songbooks, records and tapes
>that neither Child nor Bronson ever saw.
>
>Ought to move that ballad up the scale, no?This is why I talked about the scholars' biases. "Barbara Allen" is
respectable; they look for it. "Four Nights Drunk" is comic; they
may ignore it.I said in the post not to trust the numbers. Paul asked, I produced. :-)I *would* argue that every song in the Top 25 is very popular,
historically. I am perfectly willing to allow that we didn't
get every popular song.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Hi folks:Anyone got any information about this?Peace,
Paul----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Smith <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 2:07 AM
Subject: Eaton ClanOn 23 May 1939, John Lomax recorded a black convict named Roger 'Burn Down'
Garnett in Parchman, doing 'Lighthouse Blues' (very fine, and unusual in
that it seems to be based on Willie Baker's recording of 'Weak Minded
Woman'), 'Birmingham Jail' (possibly from Darby and Tarlton's recording),
and 'Eaton Clan', which runs as follows (my transcription):I'm quite sure you've heard the story
Of that Dry Creek Eaton clan;
God in Heaven knows they're innocent
Of murdering that revenue man.They were riding home from Booneville,
When they heard to their surprise,
Screaming roars from many a shotgun,
Then they heard his dying cries.His face was turned towards the Eatons,
He was shot right in the back;
When the sheriff ran to meet him,
He almost died right in his tracks.Rememering their reputations,
These Eatons ran away to hide,
Knowing that they was innocent,
By others' hands the man  had died.Officers searched* the county over,
Not a sign of them was found;
They called out one hundred soldiers,
Trying to find their hiding ground.When the soldiers could not find them,
Many a friend was put in jail,
Knowing the Eatons would surrender
When their friends could not make bail.They are sentenced to the penitentiary
For the rest of their lives,
Leaving their little children,
Their dear old homes and loving wives.* sung as a portmanteau word (sort of like 'offisearched').This can be heard on the Library of Congress website for the Lomax field
trip, at  http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/lothtml/lohome.html.The song both reads and sounds as if it's from the white tradition, but a
web search shows no sign of it having been recorded by white singers, nor
anything about the historical incident that presumably lies behind this
song. It's clearly local to north Mississippi; Booneville is in Prentiss
County, and Dry Creek not many miles to the west in Tippah County.I'd be interested to know if there are there other recordings, and what the
factual foundation of the song is.Chris Smith
([unmask])The Schoolhouse
OUT SKERRIES
Shetland ZE2 9AS
Scotland UKtel: (0)1806 515206
fax (0)1806 515261

Dear All, 
Please find below details of a fascinating new volume  
in the Elphinstone Institute's Occasional Publications  
Series. 
This important study of two great men and their ballad  
discussions will be of great relevance to ballad scholars  
and all those interested in the cultural  
traditions and language of North-East Scotland.  
Apologies for any cross posting. 
Best wishes, 
Ian Russell 
 
THE BEDESMAN AND THE HODBEARER 
 
The Epistolary Friendship of Francis James Child and  
William Walker 
 
Edited and Introduced by Mary Ellen Brown 
___________________________________________________________________________ 
  
 
'This publication is a mine of information about the North  
East and its song and language towards the end of the 19th  
century, while the letters are a delight to read.' 
Ian Olson, The Leopard 
  
 
The Bedesman and the Hodbearer is the second in the  
Elphinstone Institute's Occasional Publications Series on  
the culture and traditions of North and North-East  
Scotland.  The intriguing title describes the epistolary  
relationship between Aberdeen pawnbroker William Walker  
(one of Scotland's foremost authorities on the ballads) and  
Harvard Professor Francis James Child, during the last  
decade of the nineteenth century.  Edited and introduced by  
Professor Mary Ellen Brown, Director of the Institute for  
Advanced Study at the University of Indiana, the book  
brings together for the first time the two halves of their  
correspondence: from the Houghton Library at Harvard and  
from Aberdeen University's Historic Collections, Special  
Libraries and Archives.  Child's monumental The English and  
Scottish Popular Ballads (1882-1898), the standard text for  
ballad studies, was published without an introduction,  
which he had intended to remedy but for his untimely death  
in 1896.  This fascinating correspondence helps the reader  
to gain an insight into Child's method of working, as well  
as the remarkable friendship the two men established. 
 
Aberdeen University Press		ISBN 1 85752 299 0 
 
 
Order Form 
 
To order a copy of The Bedesman and the Hodbearer, please  
complete and return to: 
The Secretary, the Elphinstone Institute, King's College,  
24 High Street, Aberdeen, AB24  3EB, with payment 
 
Please supply ……copy/ies of The Bedesman and the Hodbearer  
@ £11.00 (UK), £12.00 (Europe), £13.50 (outside Europe)  
including postage and packing. 
 
Total:………….. 
 
Cheque/PO/Credit Card (Visa, Mastercard only)  
or Debit Card (Switch only) 
 
Card details: 
Type of card …………………. Name on card ………………………… ………..Expiry Date…….. 
 
Number of card………………. Issue number if Switch card ……………………………. 
 
Please make cheques payable to the 'University of Aberdeen' 
Your name & address: 
 
………………………………………………………………………………………………… 
 
………………………………………………………………………………………………… 
 
………………………………………………………………………………………………… 
 
This form is downloadable at: 
www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/research.hti 
 
---------------------- 
Dr Ian Russell, Director 
The Elphinstone Institute 
University of Aberdeen 
24 High Street 
Aberdeen 
AB24 3EB 
Tel: +44 (0)1224 272386 
Fax: +44 (0)1224 272728 
[unmask] 
Website: 
www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/ 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

FYI:Guy Johnson informants (John Henry, 1929):Leon Harris: "His 'captain's' name was Tommy Walters...."
C. C. Spencer: "...contractor (Shea & Dabner)...."
Glendora Cannon Cummings: "...working for Shay and Dabney...."Louis Chappell informants (John Henry, 1933):H. R. Fox: "Dabner, in charge of blasting operations.
             Shea, engineer in charge.
             Tommy Walters, Assistant Pay Master."Birmingham City Directory:1888: Frederick Y. Dabney, chief engineer, C & W RR
1889: Morgan Sheay, machinist, A[la.] G[reat] S[outhern] RR
1889: Thomas Walters, boilermaker, Crellin & NallsThe C & W was the Columbus and Western, the company that put the RR
tunnels through Oak and Coosa Mountains.
--
john garst    [unmask]

(I already sent this reply directly to Paul, but thought others on the list
might be interested also)
NormYou point out the problems inherent in the notion of popular traditional
songs; nevertheless, for what it's worth, the following are the Child
ballads that have been most often recovered in oral traditon in N. America.
Numbers in parentheses are my totals (of course open to challenge)
Barbara Allen (437)
House Carpenter (316)
Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender (259)
Black Jack Davy (196)
Golden Vanity (169)
Lord Randal (163)
Lady Isabel & the Elf-knight (157)
Hangman (147)
Two Sisters (136)
Lady Margaret (134)
Farmer's Curst Wife (130)
Lord Lovel (128)
Wife of Usher's Well (121)
Our Goodman (120)
Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin (116)
Sir Hugh (101)
Little Matty Grove (100)----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 9:11 AM
Subject: Greatest Hits

The Frog's Courtship is one that's generally overlooked. Popular as hell,
though.Norm Cohen wrote:> (I already sent this reply directly to Paul, but thought others on the list
> might be interested also)
> Norm
>
> You point out the problems inherent in the notion of popular traditional
> songs; nevertheless, for what it's worth, the following are the Child
> ballads that have been most often recovered in oral traditon in N. America.
> Numbers in parentheses are my totals (of course open to challenge)
> Barbara Allen (437)
> House Carpenter (316)
> Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender (259)
> Black Jack Davy (196)
> Golden Vanity (169)
> Lord Randal (163)
> Lady Isabel & the Elf-knight (157)
> Hangman (147)
> Two Sisters (136)
> Lady Margaret (134)
> Farmer's Curst Wife (130)
> Lord Lovel (128)
> Wife of Usher's Well (121)
> Our Goodman (120)
> Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin (116)
> Sir Hugh (101)
> Little Matty Grove (100)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 9:11 AM
> Subject: Greatest Hits

Norm:Did you actually count or use Bronson?EdOn Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Norm Cohen wrote:> (I already sent this reply directly to Paul, but thought others on the list
> might be interested also)
> Norm
>
> You point out the problems inherent in the notion of popular traditional
> songs; nevertheless, for what it's worth, the following are the Child
> ballads that have been most often recovered in oral traditon in N. America.
> Numbers in parentheses are my totals (of course open to challenge)
> Barbara Allen (437)
> House Carpenter (316)
> Lord Thomas & Fair Ellender (259)
> Black Jack Davy (196)
> Golden Vanity (169)
> Lord Randal (163)
> Lady Isabel & the Elf-knight (157)
> Hangman (147)
> Two Sisters (136)
> Lady Margaret (134)
> Farmer's Curst Wife (130)
> Lord Lovel (128)
> Wife of Usher's Well (121)
> Our Goodman (120)
> Wife Wrapt in Wether's Skin (116)
> Sir Hugh (101)
> Little Matty Grove (100)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Stamler" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 9:11 AM
> Subject: Greatest Hits
>

Hi, Everyone,
Lynne in Berkeley here.
How about  "Two Sisters" and all its variants, "Little Musgrave" and the
many forms it has taken, "Will Ye No Come Back Again" and the Ash Grove and
All Through the Night which every schoolchild of my generation grew up
singing?  Also We'll Rant and We'll roar (many versions of this one,
too--being from Canada, the version we learned was, like true
Newfoundlanders), What Shal We Do With The Drunken Sailor? Cockles and
Mussels, well you get the idea.  Oh I could go on, I better stop.
Lynne King
Berkeley, California
Sorry Dick, I didn't mean to post this to your personal email address. Hit
reply thinking it'd go to the list.