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Hi. I'm working on a Richard Farina webpage, and
I found in the liner notes of a Mimi Farina album
the following comment:
"Dick Farina had a way of plagiarizing that was
not only bold, but also endearingly forgivable.
This beautiful song from Ireland is given new
life through Dick's haunting poetry."So now I would like to know what song Farina
borrowed. Also, if anybody has any info on the
sources of other Farina songs, I'd like to know
about those, too. How does one go about
researching this sort of thing? I would
appreciate any help you can provide.Here is my website so far:
http://www.mindspring.com/~dec20/farina.htmlHere is a list of some of other contemporary
versions of the song:Mimi Fariρa: Solo (1985)
Sandy Denny: Who Knows Where the Time Goes
             Sandy (1972)
             No More Sad Refrains
Gene Parsons: Birds of a Feather (1987)
Rachel Faro: Windsong (1994)
Pete Seeger: God Bless the Grass (1998)Thanks again,
Douglas Cooke__________________________________________________
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Douglas Cooke asks for information about a possible Irish inspiration for a Richard Farina song but doesn't quote the song or give a synopsis. I'd like to help but ....John Moulden

I'm pretty sure the tune is the Irish "My Lagan Love".
Lorne Brown
The Ballad Project
TorontoDouglas Cooke wrote:
>
> Hi. I'm working on a Richard Farina webpage, and
> I found in the liner notes of a Mimi Farina album
> the following comment:
> "Dick Farina had a way of plagiarizing that was
> not only bold, but also endearingly forgivable.
> This beautiful song from Ireland is given new
> life through Dick's haunting poetry."
>
> So now I would like to know what song Farina
> borrowed. Also, if anybody has any info on the
> sources of other Farina songs, I'd like to know
> about those, too. How does one go about
> researching this sort of thing? I would
> appreciate any help you can provide.
>
> Here is my website so far:
> http://www.mindspring.com/~dec20/farina.html
>
> Here is a list of some of other contemporary
> versions of the song:
>
> Mimi Fariρa: Solo (1985)
> Sandy Denny: Who Knows Where the Time Goes
>              Sandy (1972)
>              No More Sad Refrains
> Gene Parsons: Birds of a Feather (1987)
> Rachel Faro: Windsong (1994)
> Pete Seeger: God Bless the Grass (1998)
>
> Thanks again,
> Douglas Cooke
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

In a message dated 7/14/01 10:28:43 PM, [unmask] writes:>So now I would like to know what song Farina borrowed. (TUNE TO "QUIET 
JOYS...")
*********************
The song "borrowed"  (I think plagiarism is too strong a term;  Dick never 
pretended that the tune was his own) is the Irish "My Lagan Love,"  which has 
been recorded many times by such peformers as the Makem Brothers, Kate Bush,  
Dennis Doyle, Van Morrison; many of these have created their own words.  The 
tune itself is very old (ca. 500 years) and the traditional words probably 
came later.   A "Google" search for "My Lagan Love" yielded some 3,000 hits, 
many including lyrics.  Typical is the version posted by Tommy Makem, at < 
http//makem.com/discography/recordings/lyricpage/myl > . The tune is perhaps best presented by Pete Seeger, as he plays it on the 
recorder between _a cappella_ stanzas.BTW, your Fariρa website is beautiful!Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA USA

On Sun, 15 Jul 2001 05:55:15 EDT, you wrote:>Douglas Cooke asks for information about a possible Irish inspiration for a Richard Farina song but doesn't quote the song or give a synopsis. I'd like to help but ....
>
>John Moulden"Words (c) Richard Farina, tune trad, arr by Sandy Denny."
Transcribed from the singing of Sandy Denny on 'Sandy'.
-----------------------
The Quiet Joys of BrotherhoodAs gentle tides go rolling by
A long the salt sea strand
The colors blend and roll as one
Together in the sand
And often do the winds entwine
To send the distant call
The quiet joys of brotherhood
And love is lord of allThe oak and wheat together rise
Along the common ground
The mare and stallion light and dark
Have thunder in their sound
The rainbow sign, the blended flower
Still have my heart enthralled
The quiet joys of brotherhood
And love is lord of allBut man has come to plow the tide
The oak lies on the ground
I hear their fires in the fields
They drive the stallion down
The roses bleed, but light and dark
The winds do seldom call
The running sands recall the time 
When love was lord of all--
Jeri Corlew

----- Original Message -----
From: Lorne Brown <[unmask]><<I'm pretty sure the tune is the Irish "My Lagan Love".>>Lorne is right. And while we're looking at other things Farina lifted, his
"A Swallow Song" uses the tune from a Ladino song, "Los Bilbilicos". Oh, and
"Birmingham Sunday" used a variant of "A Week Before Easter".Peace,
Paul

Yes, I'd agree - the inspiration is My Lagan Love - but I'd question the extreme age of the tune - I know of no earlier documentation of it than in Herbert Hughes' and Joseph Campbell's "Songs of Uladh" published in Belfast in (I think, I'm away from home and authorities)1904.The tune is traditional - collected by Hughes in Donegal - I think in Kilmacrennan where (I think) it was sung to a song called "The Belfast Maid" - however, there is no doubt that the words are of literary origin being written by Joseph Campbell, then young but later to become a well known if minor poet, best known perhaps for the frequently anthologised and often recited "Mountainy farmer."John Moulden

What a wonderful concert by Sheila Kay!  I wish I'd recorded that!  Is "Live
from Laurel" always folk music?  anyhow, great show!        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Brent Cantrell
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 9:09 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay AdamsSheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville will
air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice and
music coach.You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htmBrent Cantrell
Knoxville

I may have mis-sent this to the incorrect list.  It was intended for
a response to Don Duncan's inquiry. -- l----- Forwarded message from Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]> ---Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:07:37 -0700
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
To: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
Cc: Irtrad-L <[unmask]>, Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
In-Reply-To: <[unmask]>; from [unmask] on Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 10:48:27PM -0400On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 10:48:27PM -0400, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
> Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> love story, but the music was good...
        Well, yes, but the scenery is gorgeous too, and the plot is ...
fiction, but a lot of it is okay; though it also brings up some rather
modern 'feminist' and 'progressive' notions.  But it is possible to
enjoy great chunks of it for the characters (e.g., the grandmother/wise
woman) and music and even the unromantic glimpses of the hard life --
the childbirth scene is prolonged and pretty uncomfortable to see.
My opinion.  Both my husband and I want to see it again. -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360----- End forwarded message -----

A warning, though. The so-called "Sountrack" CD has only 3 tracks from the movie. The rest is fairly typical heavily
arranged country music. Pity. Sheila Kay Adams could have done it all herself, and produced something fine.dick greenhausCal & Lani Herrmann wrote:> I may have mis-sent this to the incorrect list.  It was intended for
> a response to Don Duncan's inquiry. -- l
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]> ---
>
> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:07:37 -0700
> From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
> To: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
> Cc: Irtrad-L <[unmask]>, Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
> User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
> In-Reply-To: <[unmask]>; from [unmask] on Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 10:48:27PM -0400
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 10:48:27PM -0400, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
> > Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> > who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> > love story, but the music was good...
>         Well, yes, but the scenery is gorgeous too, and the plot is ...
> fiction, but a lot of it is okay; though it also brings up some rather
> modern 'feminist' and 'progressive' notions.  But it is possible to
> enjoy great chunks of it for the characters (e.g., the grandmother/wise
> woman) and music and even the unromantic glimpses of the hard life --
> the childbirth scene is prolonged and pretty uncomfortable to see.
> My opinion.  Both my husband and I want to see it again. -- Aloha, Lani
>
> <||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
> <||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----

Thanks to all who helped with my question about
"The Quiet Joys of Brotherhood." It's nice to see
that there are other Farina fans out there. They
also recorded an instrumental song called "Tommy
Makem Fantasy" which Farina described in his
liner notes as "a breed of Little Beggarman."
There are also notes for some of his other
borrowings as well. Since "Quiet Joys" was
released postumously on the album _Memories_
(1968), Farina did not get a chance to write the
liner notes, so it's possible that he would have
cited the source for "Quiet Joys" if he had
lived. There is also one called "Blood Red Roses"
on that album, which sounds like a sea shanty to
me. How about "Bold Marauder"? Any ideas on that
one?Douglas CookePS: woops, I almost forgot to include the lyrics
again:And it's hi ho hey, I am a bold marauder
And it's hi ho hey, I am the white destroyer
For I will show you silver and gold, and I will
bring you treasure
I will wave a widowing flag, and I will be your
lover
And I will show you grotto and cave and
sacrificial alter
And I will show you blood on the stone and I will
be your mentor
And night will be our darling and fear will be
our nameAnd it's hi ho hey, I am the bold marauder
And it's hi ho hey, I am the white destroyer
For I will take you out by the hand and lead you
to the hunter
And I will show you thunder and steel and I will
be your teacher
And we will dress in helmet and sword and dip our
tongues in slaughter
And we will sing a warrior's song and lift the
praise of murder
And Christ will be our darling and fear will be
our nameAnd it's hi ho hey, I am the bold marauder
And it's hi ho hey, I am the white destroyer
For I will sour the winds on high and I will soil
the river
And I will burn the grain in the field and I will
be your mother
And I will go to ravage and kill and will go to
plunder
And I will take a fury to wife and I will be your
mother
And death will be our darling and fear will be
our name__________________________________________________
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----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Cooke <[unmask]>< There is also one called "Blood Red Roses"
on that album, which sounds like a sea shanty to
me.>>It is, a traditional one, with a few word changes by Farina.<< How about "Bold Marauder"? Any ideas on that
one?>>As far as I can tell, this is a Farina original, with no traditional
antecedents.Peace,
Paul

Marge,Glad you liked the broadcast.  Most of the music on "Live at Laurel" is
traditional.  The program is heavy on regional forms including fiddle,
banjo, old-time string bands, bluegrass, ballads, and blues.  We
occasionally include some non-regional traditions like Irish and Cajun.
Every once in a while we will broadcast local (Nashville, Lexington,
Atlanta, Western NC and Va, etc.) popular artists working with
extrapolations of traditions -- Tim O'Brien, for example.Brent Cantrell
Knoxville: -----Original Message-----: Date:    Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:05:50 -0500
: From:    Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
: Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
:
: What a wonderful concert by Sheila Kay!  I wish I'd recorded that!  Is
"Live
: from Laurel" always folk music?  anyhow, great show!
:
:         Marge
:
:
: E-mail: [unmask]

I'll have to make "Live at Laurel" part of my weekly listening routine.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Brent Cantrell
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 6:48 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 14 Jul 2001 to 15 Jul 2001 (#2001-117)Marge,Glad you liked the broadcast.  Most of the music on "Live at Laurel" is
traditional.  The program is heavy on regional forms including fiddle,
banjo, old-time string bands, bluegrass, ballads, and blues.  We
occasionally include some non-regional traditions like Irish and Cajun.
Every once in a while we will broadcast local (Nashville, Lexington,
Atlanta, Western NC and Va, etc.) popular artists working with
extrapolations of traditions -- Tim O'Brien, for example.Brent Cantrell
Knoxville: -----Original Message-----: Date:    Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:05:50 -0500
: From:    Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
: Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
:
: What a wonderful concert by Sheila Kay!  I wish I'd recorded that!  Is
"Live
: from Laurel" always folk music?  anyhow, great show!
:
:         Marge
:
:
: E-mail: [unmask]

In a message dated 7/16/01 3:15:46 PM, [unmask] writes:>,,,,,an instrumental song called "Tommy
>Makem Fantasy" which Farina described in his
>liner notes as "a breed of Little Beggarman."
****************************************
This widespread tune is often called "Gilderoy", and there are many variants, 
in several of the ecclesiastic modes. Many of them, including Tommy Makem's 
"Johnny Dhu," or "Little Beggarman, are Mixolydian.The name "Gilderoy" is probably a garbled pronunciation of _Giolla Ruadh_, 
Gaelic for "The Red-Haired Boy" -- a song that was very popular in the1600s, 
about a Scottish outlaw named MacGregor.  I haven't heard the Fariρa record in question, but there is a well known 
shanty called "Blood Red Roses;"  I think the most widespread version was 
recorded some years ago by  A.L. ("Bert") Lloyd.  A bunch of us sang this 
last Saturday, July 15, as part of the annual Shanty Festival aboard the old 
tall ship _Star of India_ , which is a part of the Maritime Museum of San Di
ego.  The words include:BLOOD-RED ROSESMy boots and clothes are all in pawn,
   Go down, ye blood-red roses, go down.
It's mighty cold around Cape Horn.
   Go down, ye blood-red roses, go down.
       Oh---you pinks and posies,
   Go down, ye blood-red roses, go down.You've got your advance, to sea must go!  
   Go down ETC.
A-chasin' whales through frost and snow.
   Go down  ETC.My old mother wrote to me:
"Dearest son, come home from sea!"But 'round Cape Horn we're bound to go,
For that is where them whale-fish blow.One more haul, and that will do,
For we're the gang to kick her through.I'm sorry, but I don't know a thing about The Brave Marauder.  The words 
sound pretty recent to me....Sam
La Jolla, CA USA

Hi, it's me again. I'm interested in the song,
"The Trees They Do Grow High." Joan Baez (second
album, 1961) and Pentangle (Sweet Child, 1968)
both do lovely versions of this song, with very
similar lyrics, except that Joan omits the last
verse, ending poignantly with "death put an end
to his growing," making the narrative as
truncated as the boy's life.  Another small
difference is that Joan sings the father's words,
"He'll make a great lord for you to wait upon,"
while Jacqui McShee of Pentangle sings "He'll be
a man for you when I am dead and gone." I thought
perhaps that Jacqui, recording a few years later,
simply made up the new line to avoid the part
about waiting upon her man, which some might find
offensive.  But looking up the song on Mudcat, I
find that the lyrics "when I am dead and gone"
are given. Mudcat also gives a moderately risque
verse that neither of them sing. The verse fits
thematically, though it changes in mood (to my
ears, at least), and switches to the third
person:And so early in the morning at the dawning of the
day
They went out into the hayfield to have some
sport and play;
And what they did there, she never would declare
But she never more complained of his growing.(This verse is credited to the Penguin Book of
English Folk Songs, William and Lloyd).
Mudcat link:
http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfmstuff=fall99+D+3120336This verse adds a further complication in the
last line, because she had been complaining about
his youth, not his growing--though the entire
song is ambivalent about this. Ostensibly, she
laments that he's too young, yet there's
definitely a voyeuristic theme running through
the song that makes me think she's secretly
attracted to him:Many is the time my true love I've SEEN
Many an hour I have WATCHED him all alone...One day I was LOOKING o'er my father's castle
wall
I SPIED all the boys a-playing at the ball
My own true love was the FLOWER of them all.OK, maybe "flower" isn't terribly
voyeuristic--though the ancient Greeks had a
phrase "anthos gumnasiou" (flower of the
gymnasium) to refer to their favorite boys.Anyway, what I'm really wondering about is a
version by Judy Collins called "My Bonny Boy"
(Judy Collins Concert, 1964).  Is this a later or
earlier version? "My Bonny Boy" has very few of
these references to watching, either because it
was written earlier before that motif accrued to
it, or because a later interpreter either didn't
pick up on it or didn't like it.  Also, the ages
of the characters are different: in "Trees" she
is 24 and he 14, while in "Bonny Boy" she is 21
and he 16, mitigating (pardon the pun) the age
difference and making the song less, well,
pedophilic. So, which version do you think is
earlier? How does one make such a determination?
Is "Bonny Boy" a cleaned-up version? Do songs
generally become more or less bawdy as they go
along?  Any other comments on this beautiful
song?Doug__________________________________________________
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On 7/21/01, Douglas Cooke wrote:>Hi, it's me again. I'm interested in the song,
>"The Trees They Do Grow High." Joan Baez (second
>album, 1961) and Pentangle (Sweet Child, 1968)
>both do lovely versions of this song, with very
>similar lyrics, except that Joan omits the last
>verse, ending poignantly with "death put an end
>to his growing," making the narrative as
>truncated as the boy's life.  Another small
>difference is that Joan sings the father's words,
>"He'll make a great lord for you to wait upon,"
>while Jacqui McShee of Pentangle sings "He'll be
>a man for you when I am dead and gone." I thought
>perhaps that Jacqui, recording a few years later,
>simply made up the new line to avoid the part
>about waiting upon her man, which some might find
>offensive.  But looking up the song on Mudcat, I
>find that the lyrics "when I am dead and gone"
>are given. Mudcat also gives a moderately risque
>verse that neither of them sing. The verse fits
>thematically, though it changes in mood (to my
>ears, at least), and switches to the third
>person:
>
>And so early in the morning at the dawning of the
>day
>They went out into the hayfield to have some
>sport and play;
>And what they did there, she never would declare
>But she never more complained of his growing.
>
>(This verse is credited to the Penguin Book of
>English Folk Songs, William and Lloyd).
>Mudcat link:
>http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfmstuff=fall99+D+3120336
>
>This verse adds a further complication in the
>last line, because she had been complaining about
>his youth, not his growing--though the entire
>song is ambivalent about this. Ostensibly, she
>laments that he's too young, yet there's
>definitely a voyeuristic theme running through
>the song that makes me think she's secretly
>attracted to him:
>
>Many is the time my true love I've SEEN
>Many an hour I have WATCHED him all alone...
>
>One day I was LOOKING o'er my father's castle
>wall
>I SPIED all the boys a-playing at the ball
>My own true love was the FLOWER of them all.
>
>OK, maybe "flower" isn't terribly
>voyeuristic--though the ancient Greeks had a
>phrase "anthos gumnasiou" (flower of the
>gymnasium) to refer to their favorite boys.
>
>Anyway, what I'm really wondering about is a
>version by Judy Collins called "My Bonny Boy"
>(Judy Collins Concert, 1964).  Is this a later or
>earlier version? "My Bonny Boy" has very few of
>these references to watching, either because it
>was written earlier before that motif accrued to
>it, or because a later interpreter either didn't
>pick up on it or didn't like it.  Also, the ages
>of the characters are different: in "Trees" she
>is 24 and he 14, while in "Bonny Boy" she is 21
>and he 16, mitigating (pardon the pun) the age
>difference and making the song less, well,
>pedophilic. So, which version do you think is
>earlier? How does one make such a determination?
>Is "Bonny Boy" a cleaned-up version? Do songs
>generally become more or less bawdy as they go
>along?  Any other comments on this beautiful
>song?I'm going to ask a brutally blunt question here:
Do you know what a folk song is? The nature of your
questions seems to indicate the contrary. Folk songs
aren't poems, to be dated by the editions in which
they are published, and they don't follow regular
pattern of evolution, and details can be expected
to vary.As "A-Growing (He's Young But He's Daily A-Growing),"
this song is number O 35 in the Malcolm Laws catalog. I don't
know how many versions have been collected, but there are
at least several dozen, from all parts of the British
Isles, Canada, the southern and eastern U. S., and even
Australia. Robert Burns used it in 1792 as the basis
for "Lady Mary Anne," proving it to have been well-known
in Scotland even before that date.One could, theoretically, look at all the versions and
try to construct a "stemma" (family tree). I don't think
the results would be reliable, though -- too many missing
links. I would say you should just sit back and enjoy
the song, as thousands of ordinary people did when they
sang it for their children and friends. Worrying about
which versions are earlier will just give you a headache. :-)You might write to the performers you've heard sing
it and ask them for sources. Let's embarrass these
professional "folk singers" into supplying liner
notes. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

--- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
wrote:
I would say you should just sit back and
> enjoy
> the song, as thousands of ordinary people did
> when they
> sang it for their children and friends.Thanks for the info...though your arrogance makes
me wonder what meaningful connection you could
have with "ordinary people." And if just sitting
back is the recommended response, why do you have
a folk song database?__________________________________________________
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On 7/21/01, Douglas Cooke wrote:>--- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
>wrote:
>I would say you should just sit back and
>> enjoy
>> the song, as thousands of ordinary people did
>> when they
>> sang it for their children and friends.
>
>Thanks for the info...though your arrogance makes
>me wonder what meaningful connection you could
>have with "ordinary people."Depends on what we're talking about. :-)But maybe I don't understand your question. You seemed to be
asking questions which would be perfectly reasonable to ask
about a chronicle, or other composed work -- but which have
no meaning applied to a folk song. A folk song has a
collection date - but that's not the date of the song.
You can't really date a version of a folk song -- it might
be collected late but split off the main stem of the tradition
early.I will admit to one piece of arrogance: I don't
*care* about versions sung by pop folksingers.
That's not to say I don't listen; while I don't own
any Collins albums, say, I do listen to Connie Dover
and Gordon Bok and other modern folksingers -- and
tend to prefer them to the performances by ninety-year-old
guys with no voice left and an out-of-tune banjo. :-)
But these recordings have no *value*. These singers
often touch up their pieces. So you can't even tell
what their sources are, or what portions are
traditional. I have no use whatsoever for that!--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

As Robert points out, you can't take what a "professional" singer
sings as a text on which to base some sort of literary analysis to
research a song. We (at least those of us who think about what we're
doing) take texts we find all over the place, sometimes change a word
here, a phrase there, add a verse or a line from here, cut out a
verse or a line there, to make what we consider to be a singable text
(ie one that rolls of the tongue in our own style, and fits the tune
we have decided to use), and one that is "poetic" to our own
sensibilities. Sometimes we write verses when we want to explicate a
story, or bias a song towards a particular socio-political viewpoint,
but all in all we might mess about with it a lot.Further, treating the Digital Tradition (or the Mudcat archives) as a
source is not always a good idea. Mudcat is an unmoderated forum.
Anyone can contribute a song to the archive, one hopes that the
people who do give some information as to where it comes from. But
this isn't always the case. Digitrad is a very useful source of
lyrics, tunes, and general information. A number of the contributors
are extremely knowledgable and careful, others transcribe what they
hear off the radio. It all gets thrown into the same pot, and sorting
it all out isn't easy.Even "professional folklorists" do the same sort of stuff. A.L. Lloyd
in particular was interested in putting out songs for people to sing,
and he put together ("cobbled," to use one of his terms) texts in
much the way we singers do. And he didn't always do what he said he
did. Take the song in question, the Penguin Book version. The primary
source for the tune, collected in Devon by Bertha Bidder, with whom I
am totally unfamiliar, was an unnamed singer, with no collection
date. Lloyd states that "only one stanza of the text has survived."
He gives two primary sources for his collated text, and refers to
five additional versions in the Folk Song Journal. Neither of the
primary sources contains the>And so early in the morning at the dawning of the day
>They went out into the hayfield to have some
>sport and play;
>And what they did there, she never would declare
>But she never more complained of his growing.verse at all, but in one of the other versions (FSJ I, 214) we find:And 'twas on one summer's morning by the dawning of the day
And they went into some cornfields to have some sport and play.
And what they did there she never will declare
But she never more complained of his growing.
(Mr. Ede. Dunsfold, Surrey, 1896 - coll. Lucy Broadwood)So at least he didn't make it up. Now latterday folksingers love a
hint of bawdry (as did Lloyd), so you're going to find this, or
something similar, included in a lot of the versions sung today.
(This version, btw, also gives the ages of the boy as 13, 14, and 15,
though otherwise it seems to be almost universally 16, 17, and 18.)Now I don't think all of this shows very much, and it certainly
doesn't address your main question; but if that's a question you want
a serious answer to then you have a lot more research to do listening
to a few commercial folksingers.John Roberts.>Hi, it's me again. I'm interested in the song,
>"The Trees They Do Grow High." Joan Baez (second
>album, 1961) and Pentangle (Sweet Child, 1968)
>both do lovely versions of this song, with very
>similar lyrics, except that Joan omits the last
>verse, ending poignantly with "death put an end
>to his growing," making the narrative as
>truncated as the boy's life.  Another small
>difference is that Joan sings the father's words,
>"He'll make a great lord for you to wait upon,"
>while Jacqui McShee of Pentangle sings "He'll be
>a man for you when I am dead and gone." I thought
>perhaps that Jacqui, recording a few years later,
>simply made up the new line to avoid the part
>about waiting upon her man, which some might find
>offensive.  But looking up the song on Mudcat, I
>find that the lyrics "when I am dead and gone"
>are given. Mudcat also gives a moderately risque
>verse that neither of them sing. The verse fits
>thematically, though it changes in mood (to my
>ears, at least), and switches to the third
>person:
>
>And so early in the morning at the dawning of the
>day
>They went out into the hayfield to have some
>sport and play;
>And what they did there, she never would declare
>But she never more complained of his growing.
>
>(This verse is credited to the Penguin Book of
>English Folk Songs, William and Lloyd).
>Mudcat link:
>http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfmstuff=fall99+D+3120336
>
>This verse adds a further complication in the
>last line, because she had been complaining about
>his youth, not his growing--though the entire
>song is ambivalent about this. Ostensibly, she
>laments that he's too young, yet there's
>definitely a voyeuristic theme running through
>the song that makes me think she's secretly
>attracted to him:
>
>Many is the time my true love I've SEEN
>Many an hour I have WATCHED him all alone...
>
>One day I was LOOKING o'er my father's castle
>wall
>I SPIED all the boys a-playing at the ball
>My own true love was the FLOWER of them all.
>
>OK, maybe "flower" isn't terribly
>voyeuristic--though the ancient Greeks had a
>phrase "anthos gumnasiou" (flower of the
>gymnasium) to refer to their favorite boys.
>
>Anyway, what I'm really wondering about is a
>version by Judy Collins called "My Bonny Boy"
>(Judy Collins Concert, 1964).  Is this a later or
>earlier version? "My Bonny Boy" has very few of
>these references to watching, either because it
>was written earlier before that motif accrued to
>it, or because a later interpreter either didn't
>pick up on it or didn't like it.  Also, the ages
>of the characters are different: in "Trees" she
>is 24 and he 14, while in "Bonny Boy" she is 21
>and he 16, mitigating (pardon the pun) the age
>difference and making the song less, well,
>pedophilic. So, which version do you think is
>earlier? How does one make such a determination?
>Is "Bonny Boy" a cleaned-up version? Do songs
>generally become more or less bawdy as they go
>along?  Any other comments on this beautiful
>song?
>
>Doug
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

The version of "Daily Growing" recorded by Joan Baez was based on that
collected from James Atwood of West Dover, Vermont, by Sturgis and
Hughes (Songs from the Green Hills of Vermont -- or a very similar title
-- my copy isn't handy). She seems to have altered the words slightly,
but her source has long been clear to me. I had recorded the ballad in
1959 for Elektra, having learned it from the printed collection, and had
inadvertantly changed the melody slightly in so doing. Baez used the
altered melody. I haven't heard the Collins version, but I sang the
ballad when Judy and I worked together at the Exodus in Denver in 1960.
        I believe Atwood sang "I am twice twelve and he is but fourteen" in
reference to the age differential. My wife once asked Joan (at Newport
in the early 60s) where she had learned the ballad, and was told "I
don't remember."
        So much for the tempest in the teapot.
        Sorry gang. I tried to send this in simple text, and can't figure out how
to do it. Lani and Don N. will never forgive me!
        Sandy Paton
        Folk-Legacy Records
<http://www.folklegacy.com>Douglas Cooke wrote:> --- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> wrote:
> I would say you should just sit back and
>
>> enjoy
>> the song, as thousands of ordinary people did
>> when they
>> sang it for their children and friends.
>
>
> Thanks for the info...though your arrogance makes
> me wonder what meaningful connection you could
> have with "ordinary people." And if just sitting
> back is the recommended response, why do you have
> a folk song database?
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:32:50PM -0400, Sandy Paton wrote:> The version of "Daily Growing" recorded by Joan Baez was based on that        [ ... ]>         Sorry gang. I tried to send this in simple text, and can't figure out how
> to do it. Lani and Don N. will never forgive me!        But you *did* send it as plain text.  Whatever you did, you did
right this time. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Douglas Cooke wrote:
>
> Hi, it's me again. I'm interested in the song,
> "The Trees They Do Grow High." Joan Baez (second
> album, 1961) and Pentangle (Sweet Child, 1968)
> both do lovely versions of this song, with very
> similar lyrics, except that Joan omits the last
> verse, ending poignantly with "death put an end
> to his growing," making the narrative as
> truncated as the boy's life.  Another small
> difference is that Joan sings the father's words,
> "He'll make a great lord for you to wait upon,"
> while Jacqui McShee of Pentangle sings "He'll be
> a man for you when I am dead and gone." I thought
> perhaps that Jacqui, recording a few years later,
> simply made up the new line to avoid the part
> about waiting upon her man, which some might find
> offensive.  But looking up the song on Mudcat, I
> find that the lyrics "when I am dead and gone"
> are given. Mudcat also gives a moderately risque
> verse that neither of them sing. The verse fits
> thematically, though it changes in mood (to my
> ears, at least), and switches to the third
> person:
>
> And so early in the morning at the dawning of the
> day
> They went out into the hayfield to have some
> sport and play;
> And what they did there, she never would declare
> But she never more complained of his growing.
>
> (This verse is credited to the Penguin Book of
> English Folk Songs, William and Lloyd).
> Mudcat link:
> http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfmstuff=fall99+D+3120336
>
> This verse adds a further complication in the
> last line, because she had been complaining about
> his youth, not his growing--though the entire
> song is ambivalent about this. Ostensibly, she
> laments that he's too young, yet there's
> definitely a voyeuristic theme running through
> the song that makes me think she's secretly
> attracted to him:
>
> Many is the time my true love I've SEEN
> Many an hour I have WATCHED him all alone...
>
> One day I was LOOKING o'er my father's castle
> wall
> I SPIED all the boys a-playing at the ball
> My own true love was the FLOWER of them all.
>
> OK, maybe "flower" isn't terribly
> voyeuristic--though the ancient Greeks had a
> phrase "anthos gumnasiou" (flower of the
> gymnasium) to refer to their favorite boys.
>
> Anyway, what I'm really wondering about is a
> version by Judy Collins called "My Bonny Boy"
> (Judy Collins Concert, 1964).  Is this a later or
> earlier version? "My Bonny Boy" has very few of
> these references to watching, either because it
> was written earlier before that motif accrued to
> it, or because a later interpreter either didn't
> pick up on it or didn't like it.  Also, the ages
> of the characters are different: in "Trees" she
> is 24 and he 14, while in "Bonny Boy" she is 21
> and he 16, mitigating (pardon the pun) the age
> difference and making the song less, well,
> pedophilic. So, which version do you think is
> earlier? How does one make such a determination?
> Is "Bonny Boy" a cleaned-up version? Do songs
> generally become more or less bawdy as they go
> along?  Any other comments on this beautiful
> song?
>
> Doug
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/THE YOUNG LAIRD OF CRAIGSTOUN [Title from Maidment, below]Father, she said, you have done me wrong
For ye have married me on a child young man
For ye have married me on a child young man,
And my bonny love is long a growing.Daughter, said he, I have done you no wrong
For I have married you on a heritor of land
He's likewise possess'd of many bill and band
And He'll be daily growing,
   Growing, deary, growing, growing
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growing.Daughter said he, if ye do weel
Ye will put your husband away to the scheel,
That he of learning may gather great skill,
And he'll be daily growing.
 Growing, &c.Now young Craigston to the College is gane
And left his Lady making great mane
That he's so long a growing
Growing, &c.She dress'd herself in robes of green
They were right comely to be seen
She was the the picture of Venus the Queen
And she's to the College to see him.
Growing, &c.Then all the colleginers was playing at the ba'
But young Craigstone was the flower of them a'
He said - play on, my school fellows a'
For I see my sister coming.Now down into the College park
They walked about till it was dark,
Then he lifted up her fine holland sark-
And she had no reason to complain of his growing.
Growing,In his twelfth year he was a married man,
In his thirteenth year there he got a son,
And in his fourteenth year his grave grew green,
And that was an end of his growing -
Growing, &c."The text is from the Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe transcript at
Broughton House, Kirkudbright, of the MS. entitled in the Scott
transcript 'North Country Ballads'. A printed version of the
Nicol [?] text also appears in James Maidment, 'A North Countrie
Garland' (Edinburgh, 1824)... As Sharpe's text is untitled, this
title comes from Maidment." David Buchan, 'A Book of Scottish
Ballads',  Regrettably, but unsurprisingly, no tune was recorded
for this version."[from]  Malcolm [Douglas in the Mudcat Forum]
.......................[Next from 'Additional Illustrations to The Scots Musical
Museum,' by Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe, wiht Sharpe's headnote.]"The words of the ballad mentioned by Mr S. [notes to SMM #377]
as 'Craigston's growing' are subjoined from a MS. It may be
observed that young Urquhart of Craigston, who had fallen into
the power of the Laird of Innes, was by him married to his
daughter Elizabeth Innes, and died in 1634. -See Spalding
History, vol. I. p. 36- (C. K. S.)[Untitled]Father, she said you have done me wrang,
For ye have married me on a child young man,
For ye have married me on a child young man,
And my bonny love is long a growing.Daughter, said he, I have done you no wrang,
For I have married you on a heritor of land;
He's likewise possess'd of many a bill and band,
And he'll be daily growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingDaughter, he said, if ye do weel,
Ye will put your husband away to the scheel,
That he of learning may gather great skill;
And he'll be daily growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingNow young Craigston to the college is gane,
And left his lady making great mane,
And left his lady making great mane,
That he's so long a growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingShe dress'd herself in robes of green,
She was right comely to be seen;
She was the picture of Venus the queen,
And she's to the college to see him.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingThen all the colligeners war playing at the ba',
But young Craigston was the flower of them a',
He said- "play on,my school fellows a';"
For I see my sister coming.Now down into the College Park,
They walked about till it was dark,
........ [Then he lifted up her fine holland sark-]
And she'd no reason to compleen of his growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingIn his twelfth year he was a married man;
In his thirteenth year there he gat a son;
And in his fourteenth year his grave grew green,
And that was an end of his growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growing[Next from Maidment's 'A North Countrie Garland', (1824) from
reprint of 1884. Heading quoted in full.]The estate of Craigstoun was acquired by John Urquhart, better
known by the name of Tutor of Cromarty. It would appear that the
ballad refers to his grandson, who married Elizabeth, daughter
of Sir Robert Innes of that ilk, and by her had one son. This
John Urquhart died November 30, 1634. Spalding (vol. i. p. 36),
after mentioning the great mortality in the Craigstoun family,
says: "Thus in three years' space the good-sire, son, any oy
died." He adds that "the Laird of Innes (whose sister was married
to this Urquhat of Leathers, the father, and not without her
consent, as was thought, gets the guiding of this young boy, and
without advice of friends, shortly and quietly marries him,
upon his own eldest daughter Elizabeth Innes." He mentions that
young Craigstoun's death was generally attributed to melancholy,
in consequence of Sir Robert Innes refusing to pay old
Craigstoun's debts: the creditors bestowing "many maledictions,
which touched the young man's conscience, albeit he could not
mend it." The father died in December, 1631, and the son in 1634.
The marriage consequently must have been of short duration.The Young Laird of Craigston"Father," said she, "you have done me wrong'
  For you have married me on a childe young man,
  For you have married me on a childe young man,
And my bonny love is long
    A growing, growing, deary,
      Growing, growing said the bonny maid,
    How long my bonny love's a growing.""Daughter," said he, "I have done you no wrong,
  For I have married you on a heritor of land,
  He's likewise possessed of many bills and bonds,
And he'll be daily
      Growing, growing, deary," &c."Daughter," said he, "if you wish to do well,
Ye will send your husband away to the school,
That he of learning may gather great skill,
  And he'll be daily
      Growing, growing, deary," &c.Now young Craigstoun to the college is gone,
And left his lady making great moan,
That she should be forced to lie a-bed alone,
  And that he was so long
    A-growing, growing, &c.She's dressed herself in robes of green,
They were right comely to be seen,
She was the picure of Venus' queen,
  And she's to the college to see
    Him growing, growing, &c.Then all of the Collegineers were playing at the ba',
But the young Craaigstoun was the flower of them a';
He said, "Play on, my schoolfellows a',
  For I see my sister
     Coming, coming," &c.Now down into the college park
They walked about till it was dark,
Then he lifted up her fine Holland sark,
  And she had no reason to complain
    Of his growing, growing, &c.In his twelfth year he was a married man,
In his thirteenth year then he got a son;
And in his fourteenth year his grave grew green,
  And that was the end
    Of his growing, growing, &c.
............................
My suspicion, as yet unconfirmed, is that C. K. Sharpe's MS
source was the copy in the collection of the Rev. Robert Scott of
Glenbuchet/Glenbuchat, i.e., that mentioned by Wm. Stenhouse in
'Illustrations to the Scots Musical Museum', #377, which
Stenhouse called "Craigton's Growing" .For additional traditional and broadside texts see G. M. Laws,
Jr., 'American Balladry from British Broadsides', O 35, and Steve
Roud's folk song and broadside ballad indexes, Roud #31.My modus operandi- Songs from professional entertainers are not
traditional songs until so proven.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

Thank you Sandy for setting the record straight on the Baez version of
Daily Growing.  You deserve the credit here as does James Atwood, who sang
the song for Edith Sturgis,  In 1919 she published 13 Atwood songs in
Schirmer's Songs From the Hills of Vermont. I see those particular hills in
Dover Vermont from my kitchen window, and I sing many songs from the Atwood
family, having learned them from James' son Fred Atwood. The title of our
family 1972 recording On the Mountains High  comes from a line in the
chorus of Ranadine, one of the many songs I learned from Fred Atwood.
Several other Atwood songs are on that recording, soon to be reissued as a
CD.>Date:    Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:32:50 -0400
>From:    Sandy Paton <[unmask]>
>Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>The version of "Daily Growing" recorded by Joan Baez was based on that
>collected from James Atwood of West Dover, Vermont, by Sturgis and
>Hughes (Songs from the Green Hills of Vermont -- or a very similar title
>-- my copy isn't handy). She seems to have altered the words slightly,
>but her source has long been clear to me. I had recorded the ballad in
>1959 for Elektra, having learned it from the printed collection, and had
>inadvertantly changed the melody slightly in so doing. Baez used the
>altered melody. I haven't heard the Collins version, but I sang the
>ballad when Judy and I worked together at the Exodus in Denver in 1960.
>        I believe Atwood sang "I am twice twelve and he is but fourteen" in
>reference to the age differential. My wife once asked Joan (at Newport
>in the early 60s) where she had learned the ballad, and was told "I
>don't remember."
>        So much for the tempest in the teapot.
>        Sorry gang. I tried to send this in simple text, and can't figure
>out how
>to do it. Lani and Don N. will never forgive me!
>        Sandy Paton
>        Folk-Legacy Records
><http://www.folklegacy.com>
>
>Douglas Cooke wrote:
>
>> --- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> I would say you should just sit back and
>>
>>> enjoy
>>> the song, as thousands of ordinary people did
>>> when they
>>> sang it for their children and friends.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info...though your arrogance makes
>> me wonder what meaningful connection you could
>> have with "ordinary people." And if just sitting
>> back is the recommended response, why do you have
>> a folk song database?
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
>> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
>
>--UVPQIPTMQLQXeEPdTXWISbEWOBVHGE--Margaret MacArthur
Box 15 MacArthur Road
Marlboro VT 05344
802/254/2549
[unmask]
http://www.margaretmacarthur.com
from the heart of the Green Mountains

>  From [unmask] Sat Jul 21 13:33:44 2001
>  Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:32:50 -0400
>  From: Sandy Paton <[unmask]>
>  Subject:      Re: the trees they do grow high
>  To: [unmask]>  My wife once asked Joan (at Newport
>  in the early 60s) where she had learned the ballad, and was told "I
>  don't remember."I always wondered where Baez got her ballads, & she never said in either of
her autobiographies.  There's a new book out ("Positively 4th Street", or
some other Dylan-reminiscent title) where the author says she stole all her
ballads & arrangements of them (probably even down to the singularly inept,
in my opinion, folkie-strum used on those early records) from a person she had
been doing duets with in Cambridge back in the late 50s, Debbie Green.  The
author interviews Baez on the topic & she says "yeah, but she wasn't going
to do anything with her songs & I was going to be a star" (this is
paraphrased, but only slightly, & the meaning is intact) & Green says "I
wasn't going anywhere in the music world, its true, but the way she did it
really hurt".  Baez had shown up at a concert where they were supposed to
be doing duets, had gotten herself billed as a solo act that came on 1st,
& did their whole set solo, note for note.  The Boston Globe magazine section
published this outtake from the book a few months ago; I can bring it in
tomorrow & type it in if anyone wants.I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about every
way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
the time).  I guess it hasn't completely crumbled yet, because I found
this book except really depressing.  The way the book says she treated Mimi
in those days is depressing too (she told her, when Mimi asked, that it wasn't
a good idea for Mimi to study music), but apparently they've long since
made up.

ghost wrote:> I always wondered where Baez got her ballads, & she never said in either of
> her autobiographies.  There's a new book out ("Positively 4th Street", or
> some other Dylan-reminiscent title) where the author says she stole all her
> ballads & arrangements of them (probably even down to the singularly inept,
> in my opinion, folkie-strum used on those early records) from a person she had
> been doing duets with in Cambridge back in the late 50s, Debbie Green.  The
> author interviews Baez on the topic & she says "yeah, but she wasn't going
> to do anything with her songs & I was going to be a star" (this is
> paraphrased, but only slightly, & the meaning is intact) & Green says "I
> wasn't going anywhere in the music world, its true, but the way she did it
> really hurt".  Baez had shown up at a concert where they were supposed to
> be doing duets, had gotten herself billed as a solo act that came on 1st,
> & did their whole set solo, note for note.  The Boston Globe magazine section
> published this outtake from the book a few months ago; I can bring it in
> tomorrow & type it in if anyone wants.I wasn't around in those days, but some friends who knew the Club 47
days called her "Joanie Phoney".  I used to think it was just a standard
personality conflict, but maybe there was more to it...-Don Duncan

----- Original Message -----
From: ghost <[unmask]><<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about
every
way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
the time>>If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
Woody Guthrie.Peace,
Paul

>  From [unmask] Mon Jul 23 15:54:20 2001
>  Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:48:35 -0500
>  From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
>  Subject:      Re: the trees they do grow high
>  To: [unmask]>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: ghost <[unmask]>
>
>  <<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago
>  when I 1st saw a concert by her <I meant this to say it was the 1st time
>  I ever saw her in concert> in which she blew off the audience in
>  just about every way possible (but did one terrific song,
>  terrifically sung, at the end, the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti;
>  whichever one wrote the series of letters to his son, which <song> she
>  had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at the time>>>  If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
>  Woody Guthrie.Based on the same set of letters, but a different song, I'm pretty sure.The song was written for a documentary that came out around the time of the
concert (72 summer maybe); I never saw it but have heard the sound track
(& may have the record).

There was a Folkways record called Sacco and Vanzetti cold have come from
thereghost wrote:> >  From [unmask] Mon Jul 23 15:54:20 2001
> >  Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:48:35 -0500
> >  From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> >  Subject:      Re: the trees they do grow high
> >  To: [unmask]
>
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: ghost <[unmask]>
> >
> >  <<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago
> >  when I 1st saw a concert by her <I meant this to say it was the 1st time
> >  I ever saw her in concert> in which she blew off the audience in
> >  just about every way possible (but did one terrific song,
> >  terrifically sung, at the end, the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti;
> >  whichever one wrote the series of letters to his son, which <song> she
> >  had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at the time>>
>
> >  If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
> >  Woody Guthrie.
>
> Based on the same set of letters, but a different song, I'm pretty sure.
>
> The song was written for a documentary that came out around the time of the
> concert (72 summer maybe); I never saw it but have heard the sound track
> (& may have the record).--
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

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On 7/23/01, [unmask] wrote:>Despite search for a traditional or printed ballad source for this song, I
>can find nothing which predates Bert Lloyd. I am told that somewhere he
>accorded it an origin in Co Donegal.
>
>Has anyone any knowledge of a previous source? Or indeed of a source which
>does not derive from ALL?
>Can anyone find the particular place in which he gave the Irish attribution?
>
>I will be grateful.Take a look at Huntington's "The First Time I Saw My Love"
(Songs the Whalemen Sang, pp. 225-226). It dates from 1856.And then ask why you didn't check the Ballad Index. :-)FWIW, Huntington quotes Lloyd as thinking it's Irish, but R. J. Hayes
as thinking it's English.
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

        More likely it is "The Ballad of Sacco And Vanzetti" a
collaboration between Baez and Ennio Morricone which was used in Giuliano
Montaldo's 1971 political drama "Sacco & Vanzetti". I have no specifics on
who did words or music or what the source was for same [if any]. Was
released as a single by RCA with "Here's To You" another collaboration as
the flip side.CliffAt 2:48 PM -0500 7/23/01, Paul Stamler wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: ghost <[unmask]>
>
><<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
>1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about
>every
>way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
>the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
>letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
>the time>>
>
>If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
>Woody Guthrie.
>
>Peace,
>Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

It's way too hot here in NH to dig out the video and check the credits, but
I do have some recollection that the song was one of those penned by Woody
Guthrie. If anyone has an old Folkways catalogue, it can be looked up under
FH5485, Ballads of Sacco and Vanzetti.Leonard Maltin gave this film *1/2; probably reviewed by one of his army of
less competent reviewers. This was certainly not a great film, somewhat
disjointed, lots of informational gaps, but nonetheless well worth viewing.
I used to show it to my US history classes.. Sing more songs, watch more
films  --  Tom>        More likely it is "The Ballad of Sacco And Vanzetti" a
>collaboration between Baez and Ennio Morricone which was used in Giuliano
>Montaldo's 1971 political drama "Sacco & Vanzetti". I have no specifics on
>who did words or music or what the source was for same [if any]. Was
>released as a single by RCA with "Here's To You" another collaboration as
>the flip side.
>
>Cliff
>
>
>At 2:48 PM -0500 7/23/01, Paul Stamler wrote:
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: ghost <[unmask]>
>>
>><<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
>>1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about
>>every
>>way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
>>the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
>>letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
>>the time>>
>>
>>If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
>>Woody Guthrie.
>>
>>Peace,
>>Paul

Paul:If the Baez song is "Sacco's Letter to His Son," it was written
(obviously) by Nicola Sacco, but the setting was composed by Pete Seeger.
It is available on Smithsonian Folkways 40060, as a "postscript" to
Guthrie's song cycle on the Sacco-Vanzetti case.EdOn Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Paul Stamler wrote:> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ghost <[unmask]>
>
> <<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
> 1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about
> every
> way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
> the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
> letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
> the time>>
>
> If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
> Woody Guthrie.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

I've been singing for a numbers of years (not continually) a ballad entitled
"O'Brien of Tipperary."  The version derives from a Haly (Cork) broadside.
Briefly, "O'Brien" has a "freed from the gallows" (or firing squad, in this
case) theme and is set in the United States during the Civil War.In the Philadelphia regiment I mean to let you know
O'Brien many a battle fought against the Southern foe
The major's daughter fell in love with him and you may plainly see
Her father then did resolve to prove her destiny.Does anyone have a reference for "O'Brien" beyond the recent Joe Heaney CD?
I am particularly curious about any record (collection, printing, historic
details of the incident, etc.) of it having been in America.  Thank you in
advance.All the best,
Dan Milner

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<Take a look at Huntington's "The First Time I Saw My Love"
(Songs the Whalemen Sang, pp. 225-226). It dates from 1856.And then ask why you didn't check the Ballad Index. :-)FWIW, Huntington quotes Lloyd as thinking it's Irish, but R. J. Hayes
as thinking it's English.>>The only quote from Lloyd I can find is: "Another song that seems to have
escaped print, though it isn't all that uncommon...Some singers call the
song "Pretty Peggy", though the girl's name doesn't appear in the text."
Tantalizing.Peace,
Paul

        The credits, taken from "The Ennio Morricone Anthology: A Fist Full
Of Film Music" [Rhino R2 71858; 1995] read:"All selections composed by Ennio Morricone, except for the following
collaborations "The Ballad of Sacco And Vanzetti" [with Joan Baez], "Here's
To You" [with Joan Baez]Cliff

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Good people -I received the following query through our website:>> Hi, I am looking for words and/or music to a song that goes something like 
this:"Ooly gooly rama sham shamAraki, araki!"I think it's from island country but i am not sure. <<Does this ring a bell for anyone?  It's presumably *not* a ballad (!) but the collective 
song knowledge on this list is so formidable that I thought I'd run it by you all.  I've come 
up with nothing on the searches I've done.Thanks.Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
Smithsonian Institution
750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
202 275-1157
[unmask]

>"Ooly gooly rama sham sham
>
>Araki, araki!"
>
>I think it's from island country but i am not sure. <<A college cheer?
--
john garst    [unmask]

On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:22:43PM -0400, Stephanie Smith wrote:
> Good people -
>
> I received the following query through our website:
>
> >> Hi, I am looking for words and/or music to a song that goes something like
> this:
>
> "Ooly gooly rama sham sham
>
> Araki, araki!"        There's a song in one of those little Coop Recreation books that has the
title/line: A Ram Sam Sam
Is probably in a non-Western language, but I'm not home where the book is,
and won't be for the next couple of weeks.  But the rest of it does appear to
be some sort of garbled version of a (western) children's 'nursery' rhyme,
or a football chant or something! -- aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Stephanie,
Greetings from Linlithgow.The book Rise Up Singing, ed Peter Blood & Annie Patterson, a Sing Out!
Publication, Bethlehem, Penn, 1992, gives this, page 188.A ram sam sam, a ram sam sam,
Guli guli guli guli guli, ram sam sam. (repeat)
A rafi, a rafi,
Guli guli guli guli guli, ram sam sam. (repeat).
- trad. (Morocco)I've had the song quoted to me as sung in guide camps in Scotland.The tune is also now used for a massively popular [in the USA and GB]
action song A Pizza Hut, a Pizza Hut,
Kentucky Fried Chicken and a Pizza Hut (repeat) 
MacDonalds, MacDonalds, 
Kentucky Fried Chicken and a Pizza Hut (repeat) With verses for other fast food chains, makes of car, etc.A version I was given in Johnston City, East Tennessee, had some six full
verses of US fast food chains!Ewan McVicar"Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
George OrwellEwan McVicar, 
84 High Street
Linlithgow, 
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935Webpage <http://members.jings.com/~traditional>

Please insert "stamp" at the end of the first sentence of my previous
post on Johnson.
--
john garst    [unmask]

I've just finished reading Colson Whitehead's "John Henry Days"
(Doubleday, 2001), a novel centered on the John Henry songs/legends
and the issuing a John Henry.  It is obvious that Whitehead has been
pretty thorough in doing his John Henry homework, but I was surprised
at p 166 at the following description of an incident involving Guy
Benton Johnson in West Virginia:"  Al shook his head.  'Sure you want to stay here?' the man asked.
"They other places you might want-'
"  Guy cut him off, thanked him and was promptly refused a room by
the proprietor of McCreery's, who informed him that he was not in the
habit of giving rooms to niggers...."I had never thought of the possibility that Johnson might have been
black.  Indeed, I would not have thought it possible a black to have
gained Johnson's position at the University of North Carolina in the
1920s.  Searching the WWW, I've not found a photograph of Johnson nor
any mention of his race except for one site that groups him with some
"white" scholars.So, what's the story?
--
john garst    [unmask]

Thank you all for your help on this song which seems to have led an interesting 
life from Morocco to Scottish and American camps and beyond!  I passed on the 
Rise Up Singing reference to the person who sent me the query, and he was delighted.Stephanie>>> [unmask] 07/24/01 03:45PM >>>
Stephanie,
Greetings from Linlithgow.The book Rise Up Singing, ed Peter Blood & Annie Patterson, a Sing Out!
Publication, Bethlehem, Penn, 1992, gives this, page 188.A ram sam sam, a ram sam sam,
Guli guli guli guli guli, ram sam sam. (repeat)
A rafi, a rafi,
Guli guli guli guli guli, ram sam sam. (repeat).
- trad. (Morocco)I've had the song quoted to me as sung in guide camps in Scotland.The tune is also now used for a massively popular [in the USA and GB]
action song A Pizza Hut, a Pizza Hut,
Kentucky Fried Chicken and a Pizza Hut (repeat) 
MacDonalds, MacDonalds, 
Kentucky Fried Chicken and a Pizza Hut (repeat) With verses for other fast food chains, makes of car, etc.A version I was given in Johnston City, East Tennessee, had some six full
verses of US fast food chains!Ewan McVicar"Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
George OrwellEwan McVicar, 
84 High Street
Linlithgow, 
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935Webpage <http://members.jings.com/~traditional>

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Frankie she worked in a hump-house
A hump-house with only two doors,
Gave all her money to Johnie
Who spent it on the parlor-house whores
   Damn his soul,
   For he was doin' her wrong.       - Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men (Berkeley, California, 1923)This caught my attention because so many versions of Frankie have her
going to a hop-house to find Albert/Johnny.  "Hump-house,"
"hop-house," what's the difference?  I can confidently guess, of
course.  Yet, I don't recall having heard a whore-house called a
hump-house before.  This raises several questions.Is hump-house a common term?Did it denote a particular type or quality of operation?
    (as opposed, here, to parlor-house)I guess that a hop-house might be a drug den of some sort, but those
that most of those I find on the WWW seem to be establishments
providing ingredients for beer, although one clearly intended
hop-house to be opium den.  Comments?Assuming that hop-house meant opium den, were those common in St.
Louis in the 1890s?
Were they there at all?
I tend to associate these establishments with the west coast and
Chinese, but I suppose that Chinese and/or their opium customs could
have been in St. Louis then.Which is more likely as the original in Frankie, hump-house or hop-house?
--
john garst    [unmask]

John:"Hump" has been used for sexual intercourse at least since the late 18th
C. according to the redoubtable Frances Grose.  Wentworth and Flexner date
that usage in the United States from 1845 on.  (They even give a
contemporary, ca. 1950, joke playing on that definition.)There should be no doubt about her occupation.  Of the four texts I
printed in _The Erotic Muse, second edition, one has her working in a
"crib house," one in a "crip house," and one in a "hump house."That latter version is from Berkeley dated to 1921 in the Robert
C. Gordon collection.  Is your version here also from Gordon?EdOn Wed, 25 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> Frankie she worked in a hump-house
> A hump-house with only two doors,
> Gave all her money to Johnie
> Who spent it on the parlor-house whores
>    Damn his soul,
>    For he was doin' her wrong.
>
>        - Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men (Berkeley, California, 1923)
>
> This caught my attention because so many versions of Frankie have her
> going to a hop-house to find Albert/Johnny.  "Hump-house,"
> "hop-house," what's the difference?  I can confidently guess, of
> course.  Yet, I don't recall having heard a whore-house called a
> hump-house before.  This raises several questions.
>
> Is hump-house a common term?
>
> Did it denote a particular type or quality of operation?
>     (as opposed, here, to parlor-house)
>
> I guess that a hop-house might be a drug den of some sort, but those
> that most of those I find on the WWW seem to be establishments
> providing ingredients for beer, although one clearly intended
> hop-house to be opium den.  Comments?
>
> Assuming that hop-house meant opium den, were those common in St.
> Louis in the 1890s?
> Were they there at all?
> I tend to associate these establishments with the west coast and
> Chinese, but I suppose that Chinese and/or their opium customs could
> have been in St. Louis then.
>
> Which is more likely as the original in Frankie, hump-house or hop-house?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

>...one in a "hump house."
>
>That latter version is from Berkeley dated to 1921 in the Robert
>C. Gordon collection.  Is your version here also from Gordon?Yes, but 1923.  Do you have Gordon's source, Songs and Fragments
Common Among Young Men?  Or did Gordon author that collection?What is your opinion of priority, hump-house or hop-house?
--
john garst    [unmask]

The verse as I recall i was:
"Frankie she worked in a crubhouse
Cribhouse had only one door
She gave Johnnie all her mony
Sprnt it on a parlour whore"There was definitely a hierarchy among prostitutes; a crib was about as low as one
could go.dick greehausJohn Garst wrote:> Frankie she worked in a hump-house
> A hump-house with only two doors,
> Gave all her money to Johnie
> Who spent it on the parlor-house whores
>    Damn his soul,
>    For he was doin' her wrong.
>
>        - Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men (Berkeley, California, 1923)
>
> This caught my attention because so many versions of Frankie have her
> going to a hop-house to find Albert/Johnny.  "Hump-house,"
> "hop-house," what's the difference?  I can confidently guess, of
> course.  Yet, I don't recall having heard a whore-house called a
> hump-house before.  This raises several questions.
>
> Is hump-house a common term?
>
> Did it denote a particular type or quality of operation?
>     (as opposed, here, to parlor-house)
>
> I guess that a hop-house might be a drug den of some sort, but those
> that most of those I find on the WWW seem to be establishments
> providing ingredients for beer, although one clearly intended
> hop-house to be opium den.  Comments?
>
> Assuming that hop-house meant opium den, were those common in St.
> Louis in the 1890s?
> Were they there at all?
> I tend to associate these establishments with the west coast and
> Chinese, but I suppose that Chinese and/or their opium customs could
> have been in St. Louis then.
>
> Which is more likely as the original in Frankie, hump-house or hop-house?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

John:I would guess that hump preceeds hop.I don't have the Gordon "anthology" specifically.  How big is it?  Can I
get a copy?  Glad to pay, of course.I do some 100 individual leaves from the Gordon collection.Ed

Ed, John, et al.  --  The 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue gives the
following:  Hump.  To bump; once a fashionable word for copulation.There is no listing for Hop, but a Hop Merchant is defined as  "A Dancing
Master."--  Tom>John:
>
>I would guess that hump preceeds hop.
>
>I don't have the Gordon "anthology" specifically.  How big is it?  Can I
>get a copy?  Glad to pay, of course.
>
>I do some 100 individual leaves from the Gordon collection.
>
>Ed

...
>I don't have the Gordon "anthology" specifically.  How big is it?  Can I
>get a copy?  Glad to pay, of course.I am led to presume that "Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men"
was a collection to which Gordon had access.  He takes a number of
songs from it in his "California" collection, that is, he notes at
the end of the typescript, "Songs and Fragments Common Among Young
Men, Berkeley, California, 1923," as if this were the title of a
printed (or other) collection of songs.  In The Erotic Muse, second
edition, you state "The 'C' text (this one - JG) too is from Gordon,
obtained from a California student in 1921.  J. Barre Toelken
forwarded it from the Gordon Collection of American Folk Song,
University of Oregon."  Evidently the U. Oregon Gordon collection has
some details ("from a California student, 1921") that I didn't find
in the microfilm from the Library of Congress.--
john garst    [unmask]

John:Available evidence would suggest that it is the other way around:Gordon took earlier material he had collected at the University of
California Berkeley between 1918-1924.I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's term paper.He had some others there dealing with folksong, according to Kodish's
biography, _Good Friends and Bad Enemies._EdOn Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> ...
> >I don't have the Gordon "anthology" specifically.  How big is it?  Can I
> >get a copy?  Glad to pay, of course.
>
> I am led to presume that "Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men"
> was a collection to which Gordon had access.  He takes a number of
> songs from it in his "California" collection, that is, he notes at
> the end of the typescript, "Songs and Fragments Common Among Young
> Men, Berkeley, California, 1923," as if this were the title of a
> printed (or other) collection of songs.  In The Erotic Muse, second
> edition, you state "The 'C' text (this one - JG) too is from Gordon,
> obtained from a California student in 1921.  J. Barre Toelken
> forwarded it from the Gordon Collection of American Folk Song,
> University of Oregon."  Evidently the U. Oregon Gordon collection has
> some details ("from a California student, 1921") that I didn't find
> in the microfilm from the Library of Congress.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Glad to see your question. I had read that too in Whitehead's book and
thought to myself, how odd I'd never suspected him of being black.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:23 PM
Subject: Guy Benton Johnson> I've just finished reading Colson Whitehead's "John Henry Days"
> (Doubleday, 2001), a novel centered on the John Henry songs/legends
> and the issuing a John Henry.  It is obvious that Whitehead has been
> pretty thorough in doing his John Henry homework, but I was surprised
> at p 166 at the following description of an incident involving Guy
> Benton Johnson in West Virginia:
>
> "  Al shook his head.  'Sure you want to stay here?' the man asked.
> "They other places you might want-'
> "  Guy cut him off, thanked him and was promptly refused a room by
> the proprietor of McCreery's, who informed him that he was not in the
> habit of giving rooms to niggers...."
>
> I had never thought of the possibility that Johnson might have been
> black.  Indeed, I would not have thought it possible a black to have
> gained Johnson's position at the University of North Carolina in the
> 1920s.  Searching the WWW, I've not found a photograph of Johnson nor
> any mention of his race except for one site that groups him with some
> "white" scholars.
>
> So, what's the story?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Ed says>...I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's term paper....Why, if it were a term paper or thesis, would the author's name be omitted?
--
john garst    [unmask]

The earliest version of "Stagalee" found by John Russell David dates
from 1910, when it was sent to John Lomax by Ella Scott Fisher, San
Antonio, Texas.According to David, on January 3, 1919, William Marion Reedy printed,
in "Reedy's Mirror," a version of "Stackerlee" from D'Arcy Fanning of
Muskogee, Oklahoma.  Fanning learned it from the "Three White Kuhns,"
a vaudeville act.  Finger reprinted it later.  Robert W. Gordon saw
evidence that this version was "corrupted by the hand of an author,"
an interesting choice of words, perhaps.The "Kuhns" song is nearly identical with one in the Gordon
collection, #3756, sent in June, 1929, by Charles E. Roe (Hudson,
MA), bearing the heading "My version of Stackolee.  Writ(t)en down by
Kenneth Olesen, Duluth, 1903."  The "Kuhns" and Olesen versions
consist of the same 15 verses with slight variations in wording and
one pair of adjacent verses switched in order, suggesting
not-quite-faithful transmission through the two lines leading to
these versions.1903 is less than 8 years after "Stack" Lee Shelton/Sheldon shot
Billy Lyons in Bill Curtis' saloon, St. Louis, Christmas night, 1895.
If the 1903 date were accepted, would this be the earliest known
version of "Stagolee"?Almost universally, the song says the killing is over Stack's Stetson
hat that Lyons either would not give back or spit in.  Eyewitnesses
described the horse-play involving hats that culminated in the
killing without mentioning spitting but verifying that Lyons took
give Shelton's hat and would not give it back - he wanted Shelton to
pay him "six bits" for his own derby, which Shelton had "broken."
Witnesses did not describe Shelton's hat as a Stetson (it doesn't
appear that they described it at all).  Gordon's mss contain a
version of the song (#304 or 804), and a similar one is quoted by
David without stating a source, that contains the following lines:They say he killed old Billy Lyons,
'Bout a dammed old Stetson hat...It was no Stetson hat.
He didn't have a good excuse.
They say he killed old Billy Lyons,
'Cause he gave his gal abuse.Fisher's 1910 version does not mention a Stetson, or any other, hat.I'm saddened by the possibility that Stack's hat wasn't a Stetson.
--
john garst    [unmask]

John:Yes, Gordon was VERY sensitive about the bawdy stuff he felt he had to
collect, so as to study oral tradition, but he would never share it with
others, even srious collectors, and was at great pains to shield those who
sent him such stuff.EdOn Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> Ed says
>
> >...I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's term paper....
>
> Why, if it were a term paper or thesis, would the author's name be omitted?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

John:The 1903 Olesen version is the oldest I found.EdOn Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> The earliest version of "Stagalee" found by John Russell David dates
> from 1910, when it was sent to John Lomax by Ella Scott Fisher, San
> Antonio, Texas.
>
> According to David, on January 3, 1919, William Marion Reedy printed,
> in "Reedy's Mirror," a version of "Stackerlee" from D'Arcy Fanning of
> Muskogee, Oklahoma.  Fanning learned it from the "Three White Kuhns,"
> a vaudeville act.  Finger reprinted it later.  Robert W. Gordon saw
> evidence that this version was "corrupted by the hand of an author,"
> an interesting choice of words, perhaps.
>
> The "Kuhns" song is nearly identical with one in the Gordon
> collection, #3756, sent in June, 1929, by Charles E. Roe (Hudson,
> MA), bearing the heading "My version of Stackolee.  Writ(t)en down by
> Kenneth Olesen, Duluth, 1903."  The "Kuhns" and Olesen versions
> consist of the same 15 verses with slight variations in wording and
> one pair of adjacent verses switched in order, suggesting
> not-quite-faithful transmission through the two lines leading to
> these versions.
>
> 1903 is less than 8 years after "Stack" Lee Shelton/Sheldon shot
> Billy Lyons in Bill Curtis' saloon, St. Louis, Christmas night, 1895.
> If the 1903 date were accepted, would this be the earliest known
> version of "Stagolee"?
>
> Almost universally, the song says the killing is over Stack's Stetson
> hat that Lyons either would not give back or spit in.  Eyewitnesses
> described the horse-play involving hats that culminated in the
> killing without mentioning spitting but verifying that Lyons took
> give Shelton's hat and would not give it back - he wanted Shelton to
> pay him "six bits" for his own derby, which Shelton had "broken."
> Witnesses did not describe Shelton's hat as a Stetson (it doesn't
> appear that they described it at all).  Gordon's mss contain a
> version of the song (#304 or 804), and a similar one is quoted by
> David without stating a source, that contains the following lines:
>
> They say he killed old Billy Lyons,
> 'Bout a dammed old Stetson hat...
>
> It was no Stetson hat.
> He didn't have a good excuse.
> They say he killed old Billy Lyons,
> 'Cause he gave his gal abuse.
>
> Fisher's 1910 version does not mention a Stetson, or any other, hat.
>
> I'm saddened by the possibility that Stack's hat wasn't a Stetson.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<I'm saddened by the possibility that Stack's hat wasn't a Stetson.>>Judge Nathan B. Young, of St. Louis, the first black district judge in our
history, did some research on Stack and his hat. According to some old folks
who claimed to know him (btw, the Judge lived to be something like 101 --
sorry, I digress) "Stag" Lee Sheldon had gone to a hoodoo lady for a spell
to increase his sexual prowess, and the talisman for the spell was his hat.
Accordingly, when William Lyon knocked the hat off of Sheldon's head
(according to the Globe-Democrat story, again btw, their original argument
was about politics -- I digress again) that was a pretty extreme insult, and
several folks told the Judge they thought Lyon had it coming.Peace,
Paul

Good People -- Particularly the Lurkers:I am printing below, with the sender's name stripped out, a back-channel
email I received this morning.Hi ed,
     I'm a ballad-l member who is not a ballad scholar, so I don't know who
you are talking about when you refer to "Gordon."  I just called a friend
of mine who knows a lot of this sort of stuff, and he said, Isabel Gordon.
Then, I just read your last message and you   referred to Gordon as "he,"
so I know that wasn't right.  So, I might as well ask you myself, without
bothering those people on the list, who know already.     Thanks.This is really an issue for our redoubtable list-mother, Marge Steiner,
but I would like to make clear my personal feelings about the matter.My point in posting the message to the list is to assure all the lurkers
or the intimidated that their questions are welcome.  Ballad-l members
have taught me much.I, for one, am glad to share what I have learned.So ask your questions, however dumb they might seem.  There are no dumb
questions; only dumb answers.Ed

While changing computers recently, I deleted the list of people to whom I
send monthly lists of new Irish releases. I now need to start again from
scratch - so if you want to receive this information, please let me know.To those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, and who don't want to
know, I apologise for this mail. If I don't hear from you, this will be the
end of the matter.Finbar Boyle
Claddagh Records, Dame House, Dame Street, Dublin 2, Ireland.
Telephone +353 1 6778943. Fax +353 1 6793664.
http://indigo.ie/~claddagh/
Claddagh's wonderful record shop;
2 Cecilia Street, Temple Bar, Dublin 2.

If I may, I'd like to give my thanks for Ed's, and *all* the list's
member's, cumulative knowledge and most generous spirit. I too am not a
ballad scholar, but I have learned much and been shown many new sources of
information by the amazing people on this list who have never made me feel
dumb for asking anything.
Kathleen--On Thursday, July 26, 2001 10:24 PM -0700 Ed Cray <[unmask]>
wrote:> Good People -- Particularly the Lurkers:
(snip)
> My point in posting the message to the list is to assure all the lurkers
> or the intimidated that their questions are welcome.  Ballad-l members
> have taught me much.
>
> I, for one, am glad to share what I have learned.
>
> So ask your questions, however dumb they might seem.  There are no dumb
> questions; only dumb answers.
>
> Ed--
Kathleen Conery
[unmask]

At 12:16 AM -0500 7/27/01, Paul Stamler wrote:>Judge Nathan B. Young, of St. Louis, the first black district judge in our
>history, did some research on Stack and his hat. According to some old folks
>who claimed to know him (btw, the Judge lived to be something like 101 --
>sorry, I digress) "Stag" Lee Sheldon had gone to a hoodoo lady for a spell
>to increase his sexual prowess, and the talisman for the spell was his hat.
>Accordingly, when William Lyon knocked the hat off of Sheldon's head
>(according to the Globe-Democrat story, again btw, their original argument
>was about politics -- I digress again) that was a pretty extreme insult, and
>several folks told the Judge they thought Lyon had it coming.Nathan Young was certainly living in 1975, when J. R. David
interviewed him.  George M. Eberhart, in his article on Stagolee,
reproduces (in black and white, unfortunately) some paintings of
Stack from Young's collection.  As I recall, they were done by Young
himself.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>      I'm a ballad-l member who is not a ballad scholar, so I don't know who
>you are talking about when you refer to "Gordon."...
>
>So ask your questions, however dumb they might seem.  There are no dumb
>questions; only dumb answers.
>
>Ed CrayMy apologies.  In the future I will try to identify people more
carefully in an early posting to a thread.--
john garst    [unmask]

But that sensitivity didn't involve excluding material from his
files, which contain names, dates, etc., freely.At 2:18 PM -0700 7/26/01, Ed Cray wrote:>Yes, Gordon was VERY sensitive about the bawdy stuff he felt he had to
>collect, so as to study oral tradition, but he would never share it with
>others, even srious collectors, and was at great pains to shield those who
>sent him such stuff.
>
>On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:
>
>>  Ed says
>>
>>  >...I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's
>>term paper....
>>
>  > Why, if it were a term paper or thesis, would the author's name be omitted?--
john garst    [unmask]

John:That may be a vestige of his integrity.  There is no question --as
Kodish's biography of R.W. Gordon notes -- that he was squeamish about the
bawdry.  He was, after all, a man of the 19th C.EdOn Fri, 27 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> But that sensitivity didn't involve excluding material from his
> files, which contain names, dates, etc., freely.
>
> At 2:18 PM -0700 7/26/01, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> >Yes, Gordon was VERY sensitive about the bawdy stuff he felt he had to
> >collect, so as to study oral tradition, but he would never share it with
> >others, even srious collectors, and was at great pains to shield those who
> >sent him such stuff.
> >
> >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:
> >
> >>  Ed says
> >>
> >>  >...I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's
> >>term paper....
> >>
> >  > Why, if it were a term paper or thesis, would the author's name be omitted?
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Guy Johnson and Louis Chappell discussed a cluster of reports placing
John Henry in Alabama at Cruzee (or Cursey) Mountain Tunnel.  Even
though both finally dismissed these stories in favor of Big Bend
tunnel, Chappell notes, "Neither Cruzee Mountain nor the tunnel has
yet been found in West Virginia, or near that state, but his (Frank
Shay's) heroic sketch presumably allows one anywhere.  As his
authority for John Henry, he (Shay) cites Dr. Johnson, who is still
trying to find Cruzee Mountain in Alabama."  Brett Williams, in John
Henry: A Bio-Bibliography, reviews the Johnson/Chappell material, how
his failure to find Cruzee (Cursey) Mountain troubled Johnson, and
how Johnson suspected that "Cruzee" might have been a vestige of
"Santa Cruz," mountains in Jamaica, where localized John Henry
stories also flourish.I believe that I have found "Cruzee (Cursey)" Mountain Tunnel in
Alabama.  Here is the poop from a WWW search.>To: <[unmask]>
>Subject: SE: C of G
>From: "Ron Mele" <[unmask]>
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:44:02 -0600
>Sender: [unmask]
>
>I was wondering if anyone could comment on a rumor I heard
>concerning Norfolk Southern's ex- C of G line between Columbus, GA
>and Leeds, AL. As most of you know, a part of that line laid dormant
>for several years with the rest of the railroad used only for local
>service. Last year, NS opened the line again to through traffic and
>made some noise about spending money to upgrade the railroad. Now, a
>fairly reliable source has told me that NS can't justify the expense
>of trying to enlarge the Double Oak Mountain and Coosa Mountain
>tunnels and rebuild the bridge at Childersburg and will probably
>sell the railroad to a shortline operator. Has anyone heard about
>this?
>
>Ron MeleWith a name passed along orally, among illiterate people, southern
speech could easily have converted "Coosa" to "Cursey" to "Cruzee."
Supporting this nomination is the fact that there is a railroad
tunnel through Coosa Mountain.  C. C. Spencer claimed that John Henry
Dabner "was a native of Holly Springs, Mississippi, and was shipped
to the Cruzee mountain tunnel, Alabama, to work on the A. G. S.
Railway in the year of 1880."  Spencer says that he raced the steam
drill on 20 September 1882.  While this is 10 years later than the
construction of the Great Bend Tunnel on the C&O, I know nothing
about the ballad or surrounding facts that would exclude an origin
this late.--
john garst    [unmask]

Cline, Wayne
Alabama Railroads
University of Alabama Press
Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0380
1997
p 148:"The L&N's most notable challenger (in building and operating rail
connections to Birmingham and vicinity) was the Central Railroad &
Banking Company of Georgia, headed by the savvy William M. Wadley.
The mineral frenzy attracted Wadley's eye and he made plans to extend
the Central into the Birmingham District.  The Central Railroad &
Banking Company had already made an incursion into the state by
investing in the Western Railway of Alabama.  This gave the Central a
terminal at Opelika from which a line could be launched into
Jefferson County."Milton Smith (a vice president of L&N in 1882 - acting president in
1884-1886 - strongly committed to the development of mineral
resources in the Birmingham area) worried that competitors could
invade L&N territory by absorbing and rehabilitating derelict lines
left in the wake of the panic of '73.  This is exactly what the
Central Railroad & Banking Company did when the Columbus & Western
Railway, one of man Central subsidiaries, purchased the Savannah &
Memphis Railroad in 1880.  The Savannah & Memphis was the latest of
many aborted attempts to connect Opelika with Talladega.  The line
was originally chartered to the antebellum Opelika & Talladega
Railroad and 54.9 miles had actually been constructed between Opelika
and Goodwater when it was acquired.  After also purchasing the
Western of Alabama's Opelika-Columbus branch outright in 1882, the
Columbus & Western was able to finish the sixty-eight miles of
trackage from Goodwater to Birmingham in 1888.  This line, like
others in the mineral region, cut through some rugged country, and
required a 2,431-foot-long tunnel at Coosa Mountain as well as a
1,198-foot-long penetration of Oak Mountain."The parenthetical material in the paragraphs above are mine. - JFGI previously wrote:>C. C. Spencer claimed that John Henry Dabner "was a native of Holly
>Springs, Mississippi, and was shipped to the Cruzee mountain tunnel,
>Alabama, to work on the A. G. S. Railway in the year of 1880."
>Spencer says that he raced the steam drill on 20 September 1882.Spencer also said that the contractor was Shea & Dabner, that John
Henry Dabner was probably born a slave to the Dabner family, and that
John Brown was the famouns steel driver of "the Big Ben tunnel fame,"
but that John Brown never raced a steam drill.F. P. Baker, Birmingham, AL, stated that he was "driving steel on Red
Mountain (outside of Birmingham) at the time this Happen about 45
years ago sowm where about that time...John Henry was on Cursey
Mountain tunnel...."Glendora Cannon Cummings said, "My Uncle Gus (the man who raised my
father) was working by John Henry and saw him when he beat the steam
drill and fell dead.  This was in the year 1887.  It was at Oak
Mountain Alabama.  They were working for Shay and Dabney, the meanest
white contractors at that time...Both my Uncle Gus and my father were
steel drivers...my Uncle Gus and John Henry were friends."Taking 1926 as the date of Baker's letter (I'm uncertain - Johnson
doesn't give that information) and going back 45 years leads us to
1881 (or "somewhere about that time").Thus we have times from ca 1881 to 1888 (when the Goodwater to
Birmingham line, along which Coosa and Oak Mountains lie) was
completed.  Although the 1882 date given by Spencer could be correct,
I suppose, it falls suspiciously close to the purchase, by Columbus &
Western, of Western of Alabama's Opelika-Columbus branch, given above
as 1882.  I'll have to do some more digging to find the construction
dates for Coosa and Oak Mountain Tunnels.
--
john garst    [unmask]

In Bruce A. Rosenberg's checklist of the Virginia WPA collection of
folksongs, 'The Folksongs of Virginia' there is one collected by
Raymond Sloan from an informant at Whitetop Mountain, VA, in
1939, #334 A, "The Dying Cowboy". Sloan had collected several
songs from some singers he had located, but only this one from
this singer, a Dr. Robert Winslow Gordon. [former 1st head of
Library of Congress Folklore Archive]Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

Thanks, Norm.  I've been away baby-sitting, a pleasure when you have
a 2-2/3-year-old granddaughter who is a genius, of course, and who
will no doubt be a Miss America as well a President.Buckley lists Albert (88 versions) and Johnny (111) as dominating,
but he cites versions with Alvin, Alfred, Alfie (Australian, I
think), Archie, Corney (probably from a confusion or mixture with
"Delia," i.e., "Cooney and Delia"), Pauly, Pearl, Iva, Henry, Walter,
and Frankie (in a few versions where Johnnie is the woman).
(Buckley, Frankie and Her Men, p 44)>I did listen to it with that in mind (for another purpose I had recently put
>all the versions I have--about 80--on 4 CDs), and I'm reasonably sure he
>says Albert, not Al Britt (but that is a pretty tough call).    However,
>interestingly, Roba Stanley (1924) calls him Alvin (several times).
>NC
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:41 PM
>Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
>
>
>>  >Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her
>full
>>  >first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....
>>
>>  Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
>>  noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
>>  other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
>>  My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
>>  that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
>>  were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
>>  Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
>>  altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
>>  around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.
>>
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]
>>--
john garst    [unmask]

Bruce:Droll.EdOn Sun, 1 Jul 2001, W. B. OLSON wrote:> In Bruce A. Rosenberg's checklist of the Virginia WPA collection of
> folksongs, 'The Folksongs of Virginia' there is one collected by
> Raymond Sloan from an informant at Whitetop Mountain, VA, in
> 1939, #334 A, "The Dying Cowboy". Sloan had collected several
> songs from some singers he had located, but only this one from
> this singer, a Dr. Robert Winslow Gordon. [former 1st head of
> Library of Congress Folklore Archive]
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.
>

Should anyone need to complete a set (or start one) vol.4 of the
Dover paperback Child is up on eBay with a starting bid of $29.99. No
takers so far.John Roberts.