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Subject: Katherine Pettit, Appalachian social worker (fwd)
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 13:59:20 -0700
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Folks:This biography, from the American National Biography Online, was posted to
a history list to which I subscribe, with permission to repost.Though the biography hardly touches on that aspect of her career,
Ms. Pettit was an important, if quiet figure in the revival of interest in
American folk music.Ed---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:02:02 -0700
From: Robert W. Cherny <[unmask]>
Reply-To: H-Net Gilded Age and Progressive Era List <[unmask]>
To: [unmask]
Subject: Katherine Pettit, Appalachian social workerFrom:  ANB onlineThanks to Richard Jensen for forwarding this from ANB online:American National Biography OnlinePettit, Katherine Rhoda (23 Feb. 1868-3 Sept. 1936), educator and social
worker, was born in Fayette County, Kentucky, the daughter of Benjamin F.
Pettit, a farmer, and Clara Mason Barbee.  After her early education in
Lexington and Louisville, Pettit attended the Sayre Female Institute in
Lexington from 1885 to 1887. She became a member of the Presbyterian
church in her early years. A family friend, who was a clergyman, instilled
in her a lifelong interest in the hardships of people living in the
mountain regions of Kentucky. While in her twenties she joined the Woman's
Christian Temperance Union (WCTU), which was working with the highlanders
of Kentucky, and she became a member of the rural library service of the
State Federation of Women's Clubs. In 1895 she toured the mountain areas of Perry and Harlan and was struck
by their poverty and isolation. She spent the next three summers trying to
help the women of the area. In 1899 Pettit and a co-worker, May Stone,
went with a nurse and two assistants to set up a six-week summer school
near Hazard and Hindman, Kentucky, under the auspices of the State
Federation of Women's Clubs.  They borrowed a tent from the state militia
and attracted women with bright decorations and entertainment for
children. They trained the women in domestic affairs and gave them a sense
of dignity and community through games and songs. Pettit wanted to promote
the mountain culture and customs and encouraged people to undertake
traditional arts and crafts. She herself collected mountain ballads. In
1900 they held a similar ten-week summer school in Hindman, on Troublesome
Creek in Knott County, at the request of the residents. They expanded the
experience to fourteen weeks in 1901 at a summer school near Sassafras,
teaching people to read and write, holding Sunday school classes, planning
recreational activities, and lending books. Inspired by this interest and by the success of the urban settlement work
of Hull-House in Chicago, Pettit and Stone decided to experiment with
permanent rural settlement schools. Hindman citizens were so impressed
with these efforts that they donated three acres of land and began to find
contributions to build a school. Pettit and Stone traveled in the East to
raise funds for the project during the winter of 1901-1902, bought more
land, and opened the Hindman Settlement School in August 1902 under the
sponsorship of the WCTU. Although a series of fires led to setbacks in the
early years of the school, it began to flourish under the directorship of
these two women. After William Creech, a Harlan County mountaineer, begged Pettit to start
a similar school on 250 acres of land donated by him, Pettit went to the
county in 1913 to open the Pine Mountain Settlement School. Along with
Ethel de Long Zande, who had been a teacher at the Hindman School for two
years, and Creech, she spent eighteen months building the school from
scratch. Once the base school of thirty buildings was established, the
group expanded its activities in the area to provide health and dental
centers. They also lobbied for improvements to mountain roads and started
farming institutes.  In 1914 Pettit was one of thirty-five members of the
first Conference of Southern Mountain Workers. Later she was the first
woman to attend Farmers' Week at the University of Kentucky because she
wanted to apply scientific techniques to the farming methods of the
mountain people. Pettit retired from the codirectorship of the Pine Mountain Settlement
School in 1930. Free from her executive duties, she decided to have direct
contact with the mountain people, and for the next five years she
dedicated herself to encouraging depression-struck farmers in Harlan
County to improve their farming techniques and to sell handicrafts. Pettit's motto was, "If a thing ought to be done, it can be done." Her
goal was to teach the mountain people to be worthy members of their
communities and to add beauty and usefulness to their homes and lives.
Never a comfortable public speaker, she preferred to talk informally with
small groups of people.  Pettit herself led by example and was known to
clear paths and to fill mud holes in roads. She was described as having
"understanding ways and great good sense," along with "courage, vitality,
efficiency, initiative [and] independence of judgment" (Frances Jewell
McVey, "The Blossom Woman," Mountain Life and Work 10, no. 1 [Apr. 1934]).
Mountain women remembered her with affection and gratitude. The University of Kentucky awarded Pettit the Algernon Sidney Sullivan
Medal in 1932 for her "high thought and noble endeavor."  In 1932 she also
took a trip to South America, where she was determined to be a traveler
rather than a tourist. She wrote enthusiastically about the beauty and
friendliness that she found in the mountains despite setbacks and dangers
including a broken wrist and revolutions. During the last months of her life Pettit found the energy to be active
in a forest preservation project in Kentucky. Never married, she died of
cancer at the home of her sister in Lexington.  With her practical, firm,
and respectful approach to the local problems of poverty, Pettit found a
way to promote education and modernization while maintaining the
traditional, independent values of the people with whom she worked. She
introduced a model for compassionate rural social work in the early
twentieth century. Bibliography Pettit's diaries and correspondence and newspaper clippings and other
articles connected with the Hindman and Pine Mountain Settlement Schools
are available on microfilm in the Archives and Special Collections of
Berea College Library, Berea, Ky.  The University of Kentucky Library's
Special Collections also contain a few items about Pettit, including a
written account of her trip to South America. The ballads collected by
Pettit are in G. L. Kittredge, ed., "Ballads and Rhymes from Kentucky,"
Journal of American Folklore 20 (1907): 251-77. Lucy Furman based her
novel The Quare Women (1923) on Pettit. See also David E.  Whisnant, All
That Is Native and Fine: The Politics of Culture in an American Region
(1986), for further information about Pettit's life and work. Limited
information about the Hindman and Pine Mountain Settlement Schools is in
Ellen C. Semple, "A New Departure in Social Settlements," American Academy
of Political and Social Science Annals 15 (Mar. 1900): 301-4. See also
Robert A. Wood and Albert J. Kennedy, eds., Handbook of Settlements
(1911), and Henderson Daingerfield, "Social Settlement and Educational
Work in the Kentucky Mountains," Journal of American Social Science
Association, no. 39 (1901): 176-95. An obituary is in the New York Times,
5 Sept. 1936. Carol A. Lockwoodsuggested citation:
 Carol A. Lockwood. "Pettit, Katherine Rhoda";
http://www.anb.org/articles/15/15-00881.html
American National Biography Online May 2001Copyright Notice
Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of the
American National Biography of the Day provided
that the following statement is preserved on all copies:     From American National Biography, published by Oxford University
     Press, Inc., copyright 2000 American Council of Learned Societies.
     Further information is available at http://www.anb.org.

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Subject: Katherine Pettit
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 18:17:48 -0500
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I, too, would recommend the book, all That is Native and Fine, not only for
more details about pettit and the Settlement School work, but also for nice
essays on the work of Olive Dame Campbell and really nice work on The White
Top Folk Festival.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: "Roy G. Berkeley" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 20:43:19 -0400
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Dick-
I, for one, would not at all be offended by such an act of free
enterprise.  I'd very much like to know what's available these days.  In
fact, I'd be delighted if you were to transmit to me info on Document's
releases, so that I might fill in the gaps in my collection.
Just one man's opinion, of course...dick greenhaus wrote:> Several list members have asked me to post new CD releases from CAMSCO
> Music that may be of interest to the list members. Is this appropriate
> behaviour? or is it reasonable to ask interested parties to E-mail me
> directly to get the information?
>
> There's a whole bunch of great stuff available, especially from the UK.
> This availablityt is not  known to enough people, I feel. And I do like
> to sell CDs..

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: Clifford J Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 19:56:35 -0500
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        Speaking of Document. Is it my imagination or has nothing been
forthcoming from them since March 2000, Country / Old-Time series or Blues?CliffAt 8:43 PM -0400 5/18/01, Roy G. Berkeley wrote:
>In fact, I'd be delighted if you were to transmit to me info on Document's
>releases, so that I might fill in the gaps in my collection.

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: scott utley <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 19 May 2001 03:23:22 -0400
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: Websites> Good People:
>
> Forgive my naivete, but I wonder if anyone or any organization has mounted
> a one-stop website that lists all the other websites devoted to folk
> music.
>
> Weekly I seem to bump into another site -- often through the good offices
> of Bruce Olson -- that opens up this library or that field collection or
> this index.> I wonder if a descriptive/critical index might not be a worthwhile project
> for the ballad-l website that Marge Steiner is again working on.> Or does such a beast exist?> EdA couple of good sites in upstate new york with some local flavor. Andy's
Front Hall is a great site for cd's and books
http://www.goldenlink.org/html/folklinks.html
http://www.andysfronthall.com/

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 19 May 2001 20:17:24 -0400
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Hi-
There have been several releases during the past year. I'll have to look
them
up, but I know that they include a couple of new Skillet Licker CDs, two
Roy Harveys a Skip James and a Jimmy Yanceydick greenhausClifford J Ocheltree wrote:>         Speaking of Document. Is it my imagination or has nothing been
> forthcoming from them since March 2000, Country / Old-Time series or Blues?
>
> Cliff
>
> At 8:43 PM -0400 5/18/01, Roy G. Berkeley wrote:
> >In fact, I'd be delighted if you were to transmit to me info on Document's
> >releases, so that I might fill in the gaps in my collection.

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Subject: Frankie and Johnny
From: Lynne King <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 20 May 2001 19:59:42 -0700
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I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody sounded
familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?Lynne King

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 20 May 2001 20:44:50 -0700
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Lynne:Yes, Albert and Johnny are one and the same man/ballad.  However, Albert
tends to be a little more raunchy than Johnny.EdOn Sun, 20 May 2001, Lynne King wrote:> I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody sounded
> familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?
>
> Lynne King
>

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 01:05:18 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]><<Yes, Albert and Johnny are one and the same man/ballad.  However, Albert
tends to be a little more raunchy than Johnny.> I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody
sounded
> familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?>>Although...a local fellow, Rusty David, did his dissertation on "Frankie",
and reached the interesting conclusion that there may have been two
Frankies, one c. 1870, the other c. 1900, both of whom knew how to use a
pistol. He reached that conclusion because the Frankie-and-Albert murder is
pretty well dated to 1900, but there were traces of the ballad's having been
sung before that date, a patent impossibility unless the singer was gifted
with precognition. His theory is that there was a fatal encounter between
Frankie I and Albert sometime around 1870, and a ballad was made about it.
Then, around 1900, when Frankie II shot Johnny, singers adapted the original
Frankie and Albert ballad to the new circumstance.I'm not sure I buy it, but a lot stranger stuff has happened in the course
of ballad history. (Incidentally, the spot where the 1900 murder took place
is now a plaza behind the hockey arena. No plaque, alas.)Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 07:58:15 -0500
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On 5/21/01, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
>
><<Yes, Albert and Johnny are one and the same man/ballad.  However, Albert
>tends to be a little more raunchy than Johnny.
>
>> I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
>> titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
>> fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody
>sounded
>> familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?>>
>
>Although...a local fellow, Rusty David, did his dissertation on "Frankie",
>and reached the interesting conclusion that there may have been two
>Frankies, one c. 1870, the other c. 1900, both of whom knew how to use a
>pistol. He reached that conclusion because the Frankie-and-Albert murder is
>pretty well dated to 1900, but there were traces of the ballad's having been
>sung before that date, a patent impossibility unless the singer was gifted
>with precognition. His theory is that there was a fatal encounter between
>Frankie I and Albert sometime around 1870, and a ballad was made about it.
>Then, around 1900, when Frankie II shot Johnny, singers adapted the original
>Frankie and Albert ballad to the new circumstance.Actually, it probably *is* true -- the second Frankie is, I imagine,
Frankie Silvers, who has her own ballad. But she also contributed
a bit to the Frankie and Albert legend (and, yes, "Albert" seems to
be the older name. At least, more of the older versions are "Albert"
versions, while "Johnnie" is the name used by the younger crowd.
Kids these days. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 10:50:04 -0400
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>I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
>titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
>fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody sounded
>familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?
>
>Lynne KingYes.  Frankie Baker shot Allen "Al" Britt in St. Louis on Sunday,
October 15, 1899.  He died two days later.  The song was "Frankie and
Albert" until a popular arrangement by the Leighton Brothers and Ren
Shields was published in 1912.  Evidently they though "Albert" to be
too sedate and replaced "him" with "Johnny."  It is easy to see how
"Al Britt" quickly became "Albert."The theory that Frankie Silver is involved in this has no sound
basis.  She has her own dreadful ballad, which has been explored
recently by a number of people, including Beverly and Dan Patterson.
The theories that the Frankie and Albert/Johnny song was around as
early as the Civil War, or by the 1880s, or whatever, have no sound
basis either, all being based on isolated "recollections" of
individuals thinking back to a long time ago.Like most ballads of this nature, "Frankie" soon strayed wildly from
the facts of the case, if it ever adhered to them.  Al was shot
around 3 a.m. when he came home and found Frankie sleeping in the
wrong bed, his, I suppose.  She said she'd been sick and came in
where she could get more air.  He pulled his knife and started to cut
her, she said.  She ran her hand under her pillow, got a pistol, and
shot him once.  Hardly the barroom (or hop-house or wherever) scene
that is depicted in the song.Robert W. Gordon was hilariously prudish and ambivalent about the
vulgarities of many versions of "Frankie."  I'm looking through his
Adventure (magazine) correspondence right now.  He urged readers to
send him the raw stuff, no matter how vulgar, just as it was sung,
but he also said that he would keep it hidden away in his archives,
that he didn't want to be an agent for spreading such stuff.To my mind the best collected verse runs something like this (from
memory, may be imperfect):I didn't shoot him in the first degree,
I didn't shoot him in the last,
I didn't shoot in the second degree,
I shot him in his big brown ass.
        He was my man, but he done me wrong.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 08:44:20 -0700
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Paul:Could be.  But the versions of the ballad are pretty close textually --
which was my point.EdOn Mon, 21 May 2001, Paul Stamler wrote:> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
>
> <<Yes, Albert and Johnny are one and the same man/ballad.  However, Albert
> tends to be a little more raunchy than Johnny.
>
> > I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> > titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> > fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody
> sounded
> > familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?>>
>
> Although...a local fellow, Rusty David, did his dissertation on "Frankie",
> and reached the interesting conclusion that there may have been two
> Frankies, one c. 1870, the other c. 1900, both of whom knew how to use a
> pistol. He reached that conclusion because the Frankie-and-Albert murder is
> pretty well dated to 1900, but there were traces of the ballad's having been
> sung before that date, a patent impossibility unless the singer was gifted
> with precognition. His theory is that there was a fatal encounter between
> Frankie I and Albert sometime around 1870, and a ballad was made about it.
> Then, around 1900, when Frankie II shot Johnny, singers adapted the original
> Frankie and Albert ballad to the new circumstance.
>
> I'm not sure I buy it, but a lot stranger stuff has happened in the course
> of ballad history. (Incidentally, the spot where the 1900 murder took place
> is now a plaza behind the hockey arena. No plaque, alas.)
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 09:09:16 -0700
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John and Others Interested in the Criminal Mind:As I have it,"Frankie stood up in the courtroom.
`I'm not talkin' no sass.
I didn't shoot Johnny in the first degree.
I shot him in his beg black ass.
        He was my man.
        He was doin' me wrong."I kind of like the woman's defiance to the end.EdOn Mon, 21 May 2001, John Garst wrote:> >I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> >titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> >fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody sounded
> >familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?
> >
> >Lynne King
>
>
> Yes.  Frankie Baker shot Allen "Al" Britt in St. Louis on Sunday,
> October 15, 1899.  He died two days later.  The song was "Frankie and
> Albert" until a popular arrangement by the Leighton Brothers and Ren
> Shields was published in 1912.  Evidently they though "Albert" to be
> too sedate and replaced "him" with "Johnny."  It is easy to see how
> "Al Britt" quickly became "Albert."
>
> The theory that Frankie Silver is involved in this has no sound
> basis.  She has her own dreadful ballad, which has been explored
> recently by a number of people, including Beverly and Dan Patterson.
> The theories that the Frankie and Albert/Johnny song was around as
> early as the Civil War, or by the 1880s, or whatever, have no sound
> basis either, all being based on isolated "recollections" of
> individuals thinking back to a long time ago.
>
> Like most ballads of this nature, "Frankie" soon strayed wildly from
> the facts of the case, if it ever adhered to them.  Al was shot
> around 3 a.m. when he came home and found Frankie sleeping in the
> wrong bed, his, I suppose.  She said she'd been sick and came in
> where she could get more air.  He pulled his knife and started to cut
> her, she said.  She ran her hand under her pillow, got a pistol, and
> shot him once.  Hardly the barroom (or hop-house or wherever) scene
> that is depicted in the song.
>
> Robert W. Gordon was hilariously prudish and ambivalent about the
> vulgarities of many versions of "Frankie."  I'm looking through his
> Adventure (magazine) correspondence right now.  He urged readers to
> send him the raw stuff, no matter how vulgar, just as it was sung,
> but he also said that he would keep it hidden away in his archives,
> that he didn't want to be an agent for spreading such stuff.
>
> To my mind the best collected verse runs something like this (from
> memory, may be imperfect):
>
> I didn't shoot him in the first degree,
> I didn't shoot him in the last,
> I didn't shoot in the second degree,
> I shot him in his big brown ass.
>         He was my man, but he done me wrong.
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Lynne King <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 10:21:39 -0700
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oh that is wonderful.  Could you send me all the verses, please?  I couldn't
understand a word of the Ledbelly version I heard on the Internet, except
for"He was doin' me wrong," which I remember from the other less colourful
version.Lynnette----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny> John and Others Interested in the Criminal Mind:
>
> As I have it,
>
> "Frankie stood up in the courtroom.
> `I'm not talkin' no sass.
> I didn't shoot Johnny in the first degree.
> I shot him in his beg black ass.
>         He was my man.
>         He was doin' me wrong."
>
> I kind of like the woman's defiance to the end.
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Mon, 21 May 2001, John Garst wrote:
>
> > >I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> > >titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> > >fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody
sounded
> > >familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?
> > >
> > >Lynne King
> >
> >
> > Yes.  Frankie Baker shot Allen "Al" Britt in St. Louis on Sunday,
> > October 15, 1899.  He died two days later.  The song was "Frankie and
> > Albert" until a popular arrangement by the Leighton Brothers and Ren
> > Shields was published in 1912.  Evidently they though "Albert" to be
> > too sedate and replaced "him" with "Johnny."  It is easy to see how
> > "Al Britt" quickly became "Albert."
> >
> > The theory that Frankie Silver is involved in this has no sound
> > basis.  She has her own dreadful ballad, which has been explored
> > recently by a number of people, including Beverly and Dan Patterson.
> > The theories that the Frankie and Albert/Johnny song was around as
> > early as the Civil War, or by the 1880s, or whatever, have no sound
> > basis either, all being based on isolated "recollections" of
> > individuals thinking back to a long time ago.
> >
> > Like most ballads of this nature, "Frankie" soon strayed wildly from
> > the facts of the case, if it ever adhered to them.  Al was shot
> > around 3 a.m. when he came home and found Frankie sleeping in the
> > wrong bed, his, I suppose.  She said she'd been sick and came in
> > where she could get more air.  He pulled his knife and started to cut
> > her, she said.  She ran her hand under her pillow, got a pistol, and
> > shot him once.  Hardly the barroom (or hop-house or wherever) scene
> > that is depicted in the song.
> >
> > Robert W. Gordon was hilariously prudish and ambivalent about the
> > vulgarities of many versions of "Frankie."  I'm looking through his
> > Adventure (magazine) correspondence right now.  He urged readers to
> > send him the raw stuff, no matter how vulgar, just as it was sung,
> > but he also said that he would keep it hidden away in his archives,
> > that he didn't want to be an agent for spreading such stuff.
> >
> > To my mind the best collected verse runs something like this (from
> > memory, may be imperfect):
> >
> > I didn't shoot him in the first degree,
> > I didn't shoot him in the last,
> > I didn't shoot in the second degree,
> > I shot him in his big brown ass.
> >         He was my man, but he done me wrong.
> >
> >
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
> >

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 12:34:04 -0500
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<<oh that is wonderful.  Could you send me all the verses, please?  I
couldn't
understand a word of the Ledbelly version I heard on the Internet, except
for"He was doin' me wrong," which I remember from the other less colourful
version.>>Check out the Digital Tradition database at www.mudcat.org for lyrics. Not
sure they have the "first degree" verse, but worth looking.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 10:41:29 -0700
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John Garst and Ed Cray (and maybe others) referred to the stanza something
like:>
> I didn't shoot him in the first degree,
> I didn't shoot him in the last,
> I didn't shoot in the second degree,
> I shot him in his big brown ass.
>         He was my man, but he done me wrong.
>
I  know this stanza was (first?) printed in John Held's marvelously
illustrated "Saga of Frankie and Johnny" (1930), but does anyone know which
recorded versions include it?  I know there as at least one, but can't put
my hands on it now.
Norm Cohen

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 14:27:28 -0400
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Some scattered, less-literary verses from the oral tradition of my mis-spent
youth:Frankie she worked in a crib-house
Crib-house had only one door;
Albert took all o' Frankie's  money
Spent it on a parlor whore.and:Rubber-tired buggy
Rubber-tired hack
Taking Albert to the graveyard
Brinkin' his pecker back
  Bes' part of the man
  Who done her wrong.

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 22 May 2001 14:00:23 -0400
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>John and Others Interested in the Criminal Mind:
>
>As I have it,
>
>"Frankie stood up in the courtroom.
>`I'm not talkin' no sass.
>I didn't shoot Johnny in the first degree.
>I shot him in his beg black ass.
>         He was my man.
>         He was doin' me wrong."
>
>I kind of like the woman's defiance to the end.Here are some verses, not necessarily from the same sources, from
Bruce Buckley's dissertation, Frankie and Her Men (Indiana U., 1962).
They all deal with the trial, Buckley's stage 21 of the story told by
the songs.  I've put the verses in an order that makes sense, sort
of, perhaps.  A verse that I recall but don't find in Buckley could
go at the spot indicated.Frankie went to the courthouse,
The big fat judge to see.
The judge he said to Frankie
"You shot him in the third degree."Frankie went on the witness stand
Her story for to tell;
To tell the judge and jury
How she sent her lovin' man to hell.Frankie said to the judge
"Well, let all such things pass,
If I didn't shoot him in the third degree
I shot him in his big brown ass."The judge he said to Frankie
"I'm sorry it came to pass,
For it really is murder in the first degree
Although you shot him in the ankle."[Verse in which Frankie wriggles and smiles for the judge, who calls
her "honey chile," or something like that.  If this is inserted here,
it accounts for the judge's change of mind.  I don't find this verse
in Buckley, but I recall it from somewhere.]Judge said to the jury,
"Jury, I cannot see,
Though Frankie has killed the man she loved,
Why she should not go free."The next morning in the courtroom
After the trail began
The judge handed Frankie the six gun
"Now, go kill yourself another man."In fact, Frankie's plea of self defense carried the day and she was
freed, although many versions tell of her conviction, hanging,
electrocution, etc.By the way, the real name of the "other woman," often given as Alice
Fry, Nellie Bly, or some such, was Alice Pryor.Buckley lists 410 verses of "Frankie," 256 of which are substantially
different, in his analysis.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 22 May 2001 17:05:28 -0400
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Check outhttp://www.lft.k12.la.us/chs/la_studies/ParishSeries/JeffersonDavisParish/Batson.htmandhttp://www.numachi.com/cgi-bin/rickheit/dtrad/lookup?ti=BATSON&tt=BATSONI've been going through the Robert W. Gordon mss at the Library of
Congress.  He was mighty interested in the "Batson" ballad and made
contacts who directed him to news accounts of the historical facts,
but as far as I can tell, he never got more than a couple of
fragments of the ballad.  Along comes John Lomax and he apparently
got a very long (38 stanzas) version from "Stavin' Chain" (Wilson
Jones) in Louisiana, 1934, that is, if the version published in Our
Singing Country is not a composite of several sources.As far as I know, and this is just memory stuff, not the result of
research, no one has come along and laid the historical facts beside
the song, discussed this, etc.  How about it?  Is my memory correct?
Is this just lying there waiting?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 23 May 2001 09:45:11 -0400
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G. Malcom Laws' entry for Batson is very strange.  Quoting Lomax,
Laws says that "Stavin' Chain" (Wilson Jones) told about the Lake
Charles, LA, murder, which is amply documented in Robert W. Gordon's
Adventure correspondence, yet Lomax is quoted as writing "Inquiry
fails to confirm Stavin' Chain's story..."  By this time, were Lomax
and Gordon not speaking to one another?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Batson
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 23 May 2001 09:46:42 -0700
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Deborah Kodish's biography of Robert Gordon, _Good Friends and Bad
Enemies,_ pp. 193-94, sugggests there was "bad blood" between John
A. Lomax and Gordon.  Furthermore, Gordon's papers were scattered in
various places, and the Batson letters may not have been in the Library of
Congress.EdOn Wed, 23 May 2001, John Garst wrote:> G. Malcom Laws' entry for Batson is very strange.  Quoting Lomax,
> Laws says that "Stavin' Chain" (Wilson Jones) told about the Lake
> Charles, LA, murder, which is amply documented in Robert W. Gordon's
> Adventure correspondence, yet Lomax is quoted as writing "Inquiry
> fails to confirm Stavin' Chain's story..."  By this time, were Lomax
> and Gordon not speaking to one another?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 23 May 2001 12:56:43 -0400
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>...Furthermore, Gordon's papers were scattered in
>various places, and the Batson letters may not have been in the Library of
>Congress.That's where they are - that's where I've seen them (via microfilm).
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Ella Speed
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 25 May 2001 15:24:53 -0400
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I've just discovered that the version of "Ella Speed" sung by Mance
Lipscomb on Yazoo DVD 502 is different from that on Arhoolie CD 306
(originally released on lp in 1960).  It is my impression that Mance
forgets some words in the last verse on the DVD and sticks in words
from another song ("one more road I'd like to ride").  To accomodate
this, he changes the tune, introducing an extra line or two.  For the
life of me, I can't figure out the last few lines of the last verse.
It sounds like Mance is at a loss for words and just goes "ala bal
moo," or some such, partly under his breath.Has anybody out there had better luck understanding this?Thanks,
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Linplum Windings
From: Nigel Gatherer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 26 May 2001 13:49:14 +0100
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Many years ago I was given a tape recording of an informal singing
party. Most of the songs were of the "Tiny Bubbles" variety, but one
fragment of a song stood out, "The Linplum Windings". I tried to track
down the singer, Dod Hay, and I got close enough to be told that he
would meet me, and that he could remember the remaining verses. However
he was unwell at the time (and rather aged), and he died before I could
speak to him.Dod Hay worked on East Lothian (near Edinburgh, Scotland) farms all his
life, and the song appears to be very much a local song. I spoke to
another East Lothian man who said his grandfather also sang the song as
a young man, but had forgotten most of it (the grandson also told me
he'd met a local lady who knew some of the characters in the song).All of this is a little frustrating, as it looks as though this
fragment may be all that is left of an interesting local song...............................................................
THE LINPLUM WINDINGS1. Come all ye fine fellows, I pray you give ear
I pray you look twice before ye leap once
For there's mony a chap has been caught in a snare
Wi' takin a loup before he was shair, laddie,
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.2. Aye, I'll warn ye all, the time's drawin nigh,
Dinna hire tae yon Red Raw they ca' Linkylee
For depend if ye do, yer sorrows will come
If ye hire tae auld Hall, the auld grieve o' Linplum, laddie,
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.3. Aye I ken o' a chap, an a gie Hielan chiel,
That wis yince sent tae feer that very same field,
An the big Johnnie, he bubbled and grat,
When his ploo widna work and his horse took the sprat, laddie,
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.4. That lad be cam hame wi' a tear in his ee
Said nae mair will ah feer that field o' Auld Lee
Of all the places that ever I've seen
The windings beat a' that ever I've seen, laddie
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.5. Well I think a' aboot plooin' I've said very weel
I'll tell ye noo somethin concerning our mill
If gaun tae thresh auld Puff gies a shout
Every yin tae their places and tak turn aboot, laddie,
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.6. Aye there's twa yokin cairts, the stack for tae drive
There's twa in the laft the sheaves tae untie
And if the orraman the sheaves disna get
He turns on the weemin like a bull in a fit, laddie
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
..............................................................Sung by Dod Hay. The farm of Linkylee, the homefarm of the Linplum
estate, lies between Gifford Morham and Garvald.
loup = leap
shair = sure
yince = once
feer = a ploughing term
grat = cried
sprat = unclear
windings = a ploughing term (the windings went out and the 'happens'
went in until the field was complete)--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Re: Linplum Windings
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 26 May 2001 13:14:14 -0700
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Nigel and Eavesdroppers:I confess that I cannot help you one whit with "Lindplum Windings," but I
can point out that it is of a piece with a number of other "protest" songs
by working stiffs: "Canaday-I-O," "Buffalo Skinners," some versions of
"The State of Arkansas," "Forty Cent Cotton," etc.Alan Lomax sought unsuccessfully to get more such songs into his
politically conservative father's anthologies such as _American Ballads
and Folk Songs._ Eventually he assembled a stack of these workers'
complaints gathered from field recordings and commercial records.  They
made their way into the book edited with Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger,
_Hard Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit People._EdOn Sat, 26 May 2001, Nigel Gatherer wrote:> Many years ago I was given a tape recording of an informal singing
> party. Most of the songs were of the "Tiny Bubbles" variety, but one
> fragment of a song stood out, "The Linplum Windings". I tried to track
> down the singer, Dod Hay, and I got close enough to be told that he
> would meet me, and that he could remember the remaining verses. However
> he was unwell at the time (and rather aged), and he died before I could
> speak to him.
>
> Dod Hay worked on East Lothian (near Edinburgh, Scotland) farms all his
> life, and the song appears to be very much a local song. I spoke to
> another East Lothian man who said his grandfather also sang the song as
> a young man, but had forgotten most of it (the grandson also told me
> he'd met a local lady who knew some of the characters in the song).
>
> All of this is a little frustrating, as it looks as though this
> fragment may be all that is left of an interesting local song.
>
> ..............................................................
> THE LINPLUM WINDINGS
>
> 1. Come all ye fine fellows, I pray you give ear
> I pray you look twice before ye leap once
> For there's mony a chap has been caught in a snare
> Wi' takin a loup before he was shair, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 2. Aye, I'll warn ye all, the time's drawin nigh,
> Dinna hire tae yon Red Raw they ca' Linkylee
> For depend if ye do, yer sorrows will come
> If ye hire tae auld Hall, the auld grieve o' Linplum, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 3. Aye I ken o' a chap, an a gie Hielan chiel,
> That wis yince sent tae feer that very same field,
> An the big Johnnie, he bubbled and grat,
> When his ploo widna work and his horse took the sprat, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 4. That lad be cam hame wi' a tear in his ee
> Said nae mair will ah feer that field o' Auld Lee
> Of all the places that ever I've seen
> The windings beat a' that ever I've seen, laddie
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 5. Well I think a' aboot plooin' I've said very weel
> I'll tell ye noo somethin concerning our mill
> If gaun tae thresh auld Puff gies a shout
> Every yin tae their places and tak turn aboot, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 6. Aye there's twa yokin cairts, the stack for tae drive
> There's twa in the laft the sheaves tae untie
> And if the orraman the sheaves disna get
> He turns on the weemin like a bull in a fit, laddie
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
> ..............................................................
>
> Sung by Dod Hay. The farm of Linkylee, the homefarm of the Linplum
> estate, lies between Gifford Morham and Garvald.
> loup = leap
> shair = sure
> yince = once
> feer = a ploughing term
> grat = cried
> sprat = unclear
> windings = a ploughing term (the windings went out and the 'happens'
> went in until the field was complete)
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> [unmask]
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
>

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Sun, 27 May 2001 16:05:23 -0400
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I started this project after discovering that:
a. Search engines were worthless in this regard;
b. Most 'folk' sites aren't worth visiting;
c. It can take a long time to find the good ones.However, it soon became clear that:
a. references were of little value without good descriptions;
b. web sites are volatile, so links need to be regularly rechecked and
descriptions updated;
c. most sites are privately maintained, and individuals have a limit to
the amount of time and/or money they can invest in them;
d. since the number and nature of sites referenced quickly gets large,
any such effort would need a comprehensive and useable indexing and
cross-indexing system.I concluded it needs to be an institutional web site, and that
particularly good referenced sites should be copied and archived (with
the authors' permission) so that the material collected wouldn't be lost
when the creator burned out.  It would need a peer review group for
quality and a notes system so interested parties could attach comments
and corrections.  It should link into bibliographies and collection
search systems - i.e., if you're going to do this, you should be able to
go into the sites to relevant information, which implies standardized
access systems...A worthwhile project, but it ain't gonna happen.  So meanwhile, I have a
small set which I hope to review this summer and put up on the FSSGB
(Folk Song Society of Greater Boston) site.-Don

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Subject: [Fwd: Re: "With My Love on the Road"]
From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
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Date:Sun, 27 May 2001 16:05:31 -0400
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Can anybody help on this?  I asked Brian O'Donovan here, and he drew a blank.-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: "With My Love on the Road"
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:49:49 -0700
From: Dianne Dugaw <[unmask]>
To: [unmask]>Dear All--
>>Here is a song query that I can't answer, but maybe some of you can?????
>
>>>Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:30:58 -0700
>>>From: Terry McQuilkin <[unmask]>
>
>>>
>>>I am suddenly reminded that you might have a lead for a question that I've
>>>not found an answer for, considering your knowledge of songs and ballads.
>>>Ever heard the song "With My Love on the Road"? It is found in the Joyce
>>>collection of Irish songs and airs, but I can't find the words
anywhere? Do
>>>you perhaps know this song, or know who would be an expert on this?
>>>Thanks, Terry
>
>

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Subject: Re: Linplum Windings
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 27 May 2001 22:41:07 -0400
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Hi-
You might try posting this reuest to The Mudcat Forum at www.mudcat.orgThere are a lt of knowledgable correspondents who hang out there.dck greenhausNigel Gatherer wrote:> Many years ago I was given a tape recording of an informal singing
> party. Most of the songs were of the "Tiny Bubbles" variety, but one
> fragment of a song stood out, "The Linplum Windings". I tried to track
> down the singer, Dod Hay, and I got close enough to be told that he
> would meet me, and that he could remember the remaining verses. However
> he was unwell at the time (and rather aged), and he died before I could
> speak to him.
>
> Dod Hay worked on East Lothian (near Edinburgh, Scotland) farms all his
> life, and the song appears to be very much a local song. I spoke to
> another East Lothian man who said his grandfather also sang the song as
> a young man, but had forgotten most of it (the grandson also told me
> he'd met a local lady who knew some of the characters in the song).
>
> All of this is a little frustrating, as it looks as though this
> fragment may be all that is left of an interesting local song.
>
> ..............................................................
> THE LINPLUM WINDINGS
>
> 1. Come all ye fine fellows, I pray you give ear
> I pray you look twice before ye leap once
> For there's mony a chap has been caught in a snare
> Wi' takin a loup before he was shair, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 2. Aye, I'll warn ye all, the time's drawin nigh,
> Dinna hire tae yon Red Raw they ca' Linkylee
> For depend if ye do, yer sorrows will come
> If ye hire tae auld Hall, the auld grieve o' Linplum, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 3. Aye I ken o' a chap, an a gie Hielan chiel,
> That wis yince sent tae feer that very same field,
> An the big Johnnie, he bubbled and grat,
> When his ploo widna work and his horse took the sprat, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 4. That lad be cam hame wi' a tear in his ee
> Said nae mair will ah feer that field o' Auld Lee
> Of all the places that ever I've seen
> The windings beat a' that ever I've seen, laddie
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 5. Well I think a' aboot plooin' I've said very weel
> I'll tell ye noo somethin concerning our mill
> If gaun tae thresh auld Puff gies a shout
> Every yin tae their places and tak turn aboot, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 6. Aye there's twa yokin cairts, the stack for tae drive
> There's twa in the laft the sheaves tae untie
> And if the orraman the sheaves disna get
> He turns on the weemin like a bull in a fit, laddie
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
> ..............................................................
>
> Sung by Dod Hay. The farm of Linkylee, the homefarm of the Linplum
> estate, lies between Gifford Morham and Garvald.
> loup = leap
> shair = sure
> yince = once
> feer = a ploughing term
> grat = cried
> sprat = unclear
> windings = a ploughing term (the windings went out and the 'happens'
> went in until the field was complete)
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> [unmask]
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Re: Linplum Windings
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 29 May 2001 01:19:18 +0100
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> All of this is a little frustrating, as it looks as though this
> fragment may be all that is left of an interesting local song.Have you tried the School of Scottish Studies sound archive?  I can't
offhand think of anybody who's done much field recording in East
Lothian, but I'd guess they'll know of anything that exists.There may still be source singers alive who know it.  Feeing survived
in East Lothian until after WW2; I think this was longer than anywhere
else in Scotland.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

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Subject: A Review and Replies
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 30 May 2001 14:16:32 -0700
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> Mary Ellen Brown, _William Motherwell's Cultural Politics_
> (Lexington: University of Kentucky Press, 2001):  A Commentary and
> Exchange by Ed Cray and Mary Ellen Brown
>
> Members of Ballad-l are invited to reply, rejoin, take issue or take
> sides.>
> In the late 18th and early years of the 19th C., with the rise of
> Romanticism, there arose in Europe a companion philosophy of nationalism.
> If the founding father was Johann Herder, the moving forces were Jacob and
> Wilhelm Grimm (born 1785, 1786) whose _Kinder und Haus Marchen_ may fairly
> be described as the first folklore texts.  (While recent scholarship has
> demonstrated that the Grimm brothers apparently conflated texts, it does
> not negate the impact the work had.)  Inspired by that work, dozens of
> men, and some women, in Germany, Scandanavia, Denmark, France and the
> British Isles began consciously collecting the traditional lore that lay
> all about them.
>
> Among them was one William Motherwell, born in 1797 to a Glasgow
> ironmonger, sent at the age of 14 to live with an uncle in Paisley, and
> there given something of a classical education in local schools.  His
> literary interests came early; by age 20 he was secretary of the Paisley
> [Robert] Burns Club, and a member of the Literary Institution.  A poet of
> modest attainments, Motherwell began collecting (and polishing)
> "traditionary" ballads; these he would publish in fascicles as
> _Minstrelsy: Ancient and Modern_ in 1827, before taking over the post of
> editor of the _Paisley Magazine._
>
> Motherwell then lived just as the Industrial Revolution was to swallow the
> older agrarian society -- at least in the fetid cities of Great
> Britain.  A conservative, he yearned for the old, the familiar order.  His
> ballad collecting, his reviews of other ballad collections, all were
> celebrations of a Scots "race" of old, a people of literary/cultural
> standing, a NATION.
>
> Francis James Child was to rely heavily on the Motherwell collection
> in editing the two-volume _English and Scottish Ballads_ (1857-59) for the
> British Poets series.  Child reprinted no fewer than 37 of Motherwell's 71
> texts, according to Mary Ellen Brown ("Mr. Child's Scottish mentor:
> William Motherwell," in Cheesman and Rieuwerts, _Ballads into Books, _ p.
> 31.)
>
> It is probably a bit too much to assert that Motherwell served as Child's
> mentor.  If anyone deserves that role, it was Svend Grundtvig, editor of
> the _Danmarks gamble Folkeviser._ Nonetheless, Motherwell's collection was
> a crutch upon which Child would lean.
>
> To his dismay.  Or frustration.  As Brown points out in _Motherwell's
> Cultural Politics,_Motherwell "fixed" or "improved" the ballads he first
> collected in and around Paisley in the mid-1820s.  Then, seemingly
> following the advice of a regretful Walter Scott who had done the same
> thing, Motherwell had a change of heart.  He would no longer polish the
> traditionary ballads he collected so as to show the Scots "race" in its
> best garb.  Rather, he would preserve each ballad as an artifact, or
> (religious) relic.
>
> Brown's chapter placing Motherwell in this socio-political context (pp. 78
> ff.) is vital, a useful expansion of Sigurd Hustvedt's _Ballad Books and
> Ballad Men_ -- still the best history of the 19th C. ballad revival.
>
> Motherwell, of course, was a man of his times: rather snobbish, perhaps
> something of a social climber.  In his view, the muckle ballads were
> written by minstrels (i.e., trained professionals), handed on to
> "retainers" (Brown's word) who might have rewritten the material to please
> the taste of the "lower ranks," people he argued whose "stubborn
> sensibilities could only be excited by narratives of real incident,
> suffering or adventure, distinctly, plainly, and artlessly told."
> (A half century later, P.W. Joyce was to make the same arguments in
> explaining Irish/Celtic myths.  His _Old Celtic Romances: Tales from Irish
> Mythology_ has just been reprinted by Dover.)
>
> It is Motherwell, a class-conscious, conservative, proud Scotsman, whom
> Brown has sought to portray in her book.  He is not always a sympathetic
> character.  But he is human.
>
> Less successful, or less compelling is Brown's attempt to explain just
> why Motherwell edited the first fascicles of his _Minstrelsy_ to
> "improve" the ballads.  Or why the change of heart.
>
> Brown suggests that Motherwell "began his study as a person interested in
> literature, national literature -- the older and more antique the
> better.  What he learned in the process of the textual exercise he and his
> friends had begun... was that at best the ballads are sung.  So after the
> work proper was concluded he made sure that a section titled `Musick'
> corrected the view of ballads as poetry...."  (pp. 97-98)
>
> Still, her explanation of Motherwell's change of heart, that is, his shift
> from tampering with texts to preserving the oral tradition, seems a let
> down.  Attributing it to the "playfulness" of Motherwell's circle, to his
> sense of literary quality rather than historical versimilitude merely
> reframes the argument between the literary and anthropological that has
> riven folklore studies as long as there have been folklore studies.
> Motherwell, says Brown, merely switched camps.
>
>                                               -- Ed Cray
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks, Ed.
>
> On quick read, I suppose what I intended to suggest is that
> collecting, meeting folks, seeing multiformity in front of him,
> understanding oral tradition's operation made him change from the
> literary/editing approach that was the norm.  Implicitly, reality was his
> teacher.  Before he'd been taught by prettied up materials.
>
> I'm not sure I'd even put the ballad editing he did in the
> forgery/playfulness category.
>
> Do we make a mistake to redraw the past in terms of present, continuing
> issues--such as literary and anthropological which weren't a part of his
> world?
>
> It wasn't so much that Motherwell changed camps, but that he learned--as I
> read it.
>
>                                               -- Mary Ellen Brown
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What I seem to be missing is why M. shifted his position.  What in
> reality, to use your term, led him to see the light?
>
> I would agree we should not "redraw the past in terms of the
> present."  That is nothing more than ethnocentrism.  However, it seems to
> me that these early scholars were quite aware of history v. literary
> concerns.  (You make this very point quite well on p. 126, I would say.)
>
> Assuming for the moment that "history" (fact) is a cognate of
> anthropology, I would suggest that our ballad forebearers were engaged in
> the same struggles our contemporaries have battled.
>
> May I invite you to frame a criticism of my position.
>
>                                               -- Ed Cray
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> First of all, let me thank you for engaging with Motherwell.  There
> were times in the process of studying him that I wondered about my sanity,
> expending so much time on this guy.  But I learned so
> incredibly much--after many false starts and confusions, especially about
> his class location, etc.
>
> Some random remarks beginning with paragraph 1 of your first posting:
> clearly there was much in the air about going to the people and the German
> influence may be implicit.  But Scotland's interest in her "culture," oral
> or written derived largely from her history--the recent amalgamation with
> England, only now beginning to be disintangled, and that not without
> problems.  There was an interest on the part of some folks in evidences of
> SCOTLAND writ large.  The poems of Burns, the documents produced by
> MacPherson, as well as ballads and folksongs were some of those evidences
> along with THE language--lots of interest/focus on the language (something
> that continues today.)  So Scotland' history really contributed to the
  interest.
>
> Motherwell's interest in the past, the old, was, of course involved with
> their Scottishness in part.  But  more importantly, he saw them as having
> come from a better time, a more organic world, an imagined homogeneous
> paradise!  Yes Scottish, but also utopian.
>
> Child not only used Motherwell lavishly in his l857 edition, but claimed
> Motherwell's ballad manuscript made possible/necessitated even a new
> edition, our l882-l898 "canon" or whatever.  I do think of Motherwell as a
> kind of mentor because his introduction to the Minstrelsy (written after
> the work was completed--more anon) actually introduces a paradigm shift:
> he said that all versions are equal!  That so struck Grundtvig when he
> himself was doing an edition of English ballads and came across it that it
> became for him the guiding structure for his own work and which he clearly
> emphasized for Child in his direct communications with Child.
> (Incidentally, Child was enormously indebted to LOTS of folks, Scots,
> Brits or all sorts, and Europeans for help:  in fact he was largely editor
> in chief and there were many sub-editors who deserve recognition, chief
> among them a Scot William MacMath without whom Child could NOT have
> completed his work--but others too.).
>
> I don't really think Motherwell sought to preserve each version of a
> ballad as a religious relic, but as coming from different voices and thus
> representing something he hadn't realized, multiformity of oral tradition,
> something he called a reliable preservor.  Religion had nothing to do with
> it.
>
> He began his work on the Minstrelsy with a bunch of guys.  They published
> in bits and pieces.  They began thinking they'd include old and new
> stuff--including their own work (there are several Motherwell pieces in
> the early parts).  Then their interest must have waned or business
> involvement called:  it was left to Motherwell to complete.  He was
> anxious, not sure he knew enough.  What they'd been doing was what
> everyone else was doing--editing, conflating, touching up, making to fit
> their own aesthetic.  So he began a self-study program, writing letters to
> persons who had been involved in similar work; he looked at everything he
> could get his hands on; and he went to collect.  The latter took him to
> the living ballad:  there he saw/heard.  He realized that editing and
> conflating was not true to the reality of the living ballad.  He also
> observed oral formulaic composition (really key).  His shift was a learned
> one:  his fieldwork experience opened his eyes.  Perhaps in this sense his
> shift from the library to the field was crucial.  I don't find this a
> letdown at all:  I find it amazing, exhilerating, and exciting.  I think
> his work really marks the beginnning of serious scholarship.  That we
> haven't recognized its full contribution rests largely in our ahistorical
> or limited historical researches and our own concerns, more with texts
> than with discursive descriptions (many of them, like the minstrel
> origins, are, of course, highly suspect).
>
> I also think that Motherwell was operating at a time when there was an
> unsettled notion of the literary, of how it was or was not true.  So I'm
> not sure the kind of distinction we draw between history and literary
> holds.  They were grappling with the idea of truth.
>
> Well, you've undoubtedly gotten more from me than you'd anticipated.  As
> you can tell, I really love this stuff and appreciate interacting with
> others who share some of my enthusiasm--if coming from different
> perspectives.
>
>                                       -- Mary Ellen Brown
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: A Review and Replies
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Wed, 30 May 2001 22:25:44 -0400
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Ed Cray wrote:
>
> > Mary Ellen Brown, _William Motherwell's Cultural Politics_
> > (Lexington: University of Kentucky Press, 2001):  A Commentary and
> > Exchange by Ed Cray and Mary Ellen Brown
> >
> > Members of Ballad-l are invited to reply, rejoin, take issue or take
> > sides.
>
> >It's not possible for many to comment intelligently on
Motherwell's ballad work, because appreciation of it seems to be
limited to praise by those few who have seen his manuscripts,
which, so far, haven't been considered worthy of any published
edition.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles: popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>My Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 31 May 2001 11:13:32 -0400
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Batson is an "official" native American ballad, Laws I 10.  As far as
I know, it has been collected, in anything resembling complete form,
only once, in Lafayette, LA, in 1934, by Lomax, from "Stavin' Chain"
(Wilson Jones).  Jones said it was based on a crime that happened
near Lake Charles, LA, but Lomax's inquiries failed to confirm the
story.Nearly ten years earlier, Gordon had received three verses from two
informants and had briefly looked into the factual history,
sufficient to establish that the ballad is based on a crime committed
near Lake Charles, LA, in 1902 and the subsequent conviction and
execution, by hanging, of Albert "Ed" Batson, age 22, a hired hand on
the farm of one of the victims, Ward Earll.  Batson was from
Spickard, Grundy County, MO.Compare a couple of opening stanzas:(Lamkin)
Bo Lamkin was as fine a mason
As ever laid a stone,
He built a fine castle,
But pay he got none.(Batson)
Batson been working for Mr. Earle
Six long years today,
And ever since he been working for Mr. Earle,
He never got a pay.
    Cryin', "Oh, Mamma,
    I didn't done the crime."A book written about the crime in 1903 argued that Batson's
conviction on purely circumstantial evidence was probably wrong and
that other leads should have been investigated.  The book also states
that there was high prejudice against Batson and that local citizens
who swore that they could be fair jurors also made statements
indicating that they were convinced of his guilt.  A motion for a
change of venue was denied in the face of substantial indications
that Batson could not get a fair trial in the venue of the crime.I have now made contact with relatives of Ed Batson.  They know about
his case, and they believe him to have been innocent.  They tell of a
statement clearing Ed, made many years after the murder and trial by
a "colored man" who had been afraid to come forward at the time.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Fw: Song source search
From: CeltArctic <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 1 May 2001 06:22:15 -0600
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Hi there,This came up on another list.  Does anyone  know the answer to James'
question?
............................................................................
.............
CeltArctic Music
Moira Cameron & Steve Goff
4505 Schooldraw Ave.
Yellowknife, NT, X1A 2K3
Canada
http://sites.netscape.net/moirakc/celtarctic_home
............................................................................
.............
----- Original Message -----
From: James Gordon <[unmask]>
To: Maplepost <[unmask]>> Hi Folks--- I've been producing an album for a terrific traditional singer
> and celtic flute player named Allison Lupton...
>
> We've recorded a song that she believes to be traditional--- but I'm
> skeptical.. My guess is that it was written in the last 30 years in a trad
> style...
>
> She doesn't know its title-- so its hard to do a search--
>
> here are the lyrics --can anyone identify it for us?
> thanks in advance
>
> james
>
> ( it's a very pretty ballad)
>
> And to see how my true love comes smiling,
> And to see how my true love comes in-
> It would make any pauper feel happy-
> It would make every nightingale sing
>
> Oh my love, he's a soldier for freedom-
> Oh me love, he's the one I adore
> As he stands there so tall and so handsome,
> And he says he'll be mine forever more
>
> Then one day he arose and went from me
> Saying wait for me darling i return
> When the rest of the fighting is over
> And the final victory is won
>
> Oh the city's no place for a farmer
> ANd the riot's no place for a child
> And the battle's no place for my true love
> And black is no colour for a bride
>
>
> James Gordon [unmask]
> Box 714 Guelph ON Canada
> NlH 4A5  (519)837-3757
> fax: (519)837-3776
> http://jamesgordon.cjb.net
> Booking Inquiries: Jude Vadala
> [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Fw: Song source search
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 1 May 2001 09:02:32 -0400
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CeltArctic wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
> This came up on another list.  Does anyone  know the answer to James'
> question?
> ............................................................................
> .............
> CeltArctic Music
> Moira Cameron & Steve Goff
> 4505 Schooldraw Ave.
> Yellowknife, NT, X1A 2K3
> Canada
> http://sites.netscape.net/moirakc/celtarctic_home
> ............................................................................
> .............
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: James Gordon <[unmask]>
> To: Maplepost <[unmask]>
>
> > Hi Folks--- I've been producing an album for a terrific traditional singer
> > and celtic flute player named Allison Lupton...
> >
> > We've recorded a song that she believes to be traditional--- but I'm
> > skeptical.. My guess is that it was written in the last 30 years in a trad
> > style...
> >
> > She doesn't know its title-- so its hard to do a search--
> >
> > here are the lyrics --can anyone identify it for us?
> > thanks in advance
> >
> > james
> >
> > ( it's a very pretty ballad)
> >
> > And to see how my true love comes smiling,
> > And to see how my true love comes in-
> > It would make any pauper feel happy-
> > It would make every nightingale sing
> >
> > Oh my love, he's a soldier for freedom-
> > Oh me love, he's the one I adore
> > As he stands there so tall and so handsome,
> > And he says he'll be mine forever more
> >
> > Then one day he arose and went from me
> > Saying wait for me darling i return
> > When the rest of the fighting is over
> > And the final victory is won
> >
> > Oh the city's no place for a farmer
> > ANd the riot's no place for a child
> > And the battle's no place for my true love
> > And black is no colour for a bride
> >
> >
> > James Gordon [unmask]
> > Box 714 Guelph ON Canada
> > NlH 4A5  (519)837-3757
> > fax: (519)837-3776
> > http://jamesgordon.cjb.net
> > Booking Inquiries: Jude Vadala
> > [unmask]I'm very skeptical too (and it's not a ballad) and some lines are far
from traditional style-- 'solder for freedom', 'final victory is won',
and 'riot's no place for a child' are pop song style, not traditional.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: Fw: Song source search
From: Malcolm Douglas <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 1 May 2001 19:45:16 +0100
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Allison Lupton herself (I assume it was she) enquired about this apparantly
relatively modern song a few weeks ago at the Mudcat Forum, but nobody was
able to help. I've revived the thread there, which is at:
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=33365 in case we can get some
results this time around. It might be a good idea to post the question to
the folk music newsgroups as well, as it does seem to be quite obscure.Malcolm Douglas

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Subject: Re: Fw: Song source search
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 1 May 2001 15:09:46 -0400
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Malcolm Douglas wrote:
>
> Allison Lupton herself (I assume it was she) enquired about this apparantly
> relatively modern song a few weeks ago at the Mudcat Forum, but nobody was
> able to help. I've revived the thread there, which is at:
> http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=33365 in case we can get some
> results this time around. It might be a good idea to post the question to
> the folk music newsgroups as well, as it does seem to be quite obscure.
>
> Malcolm DouglasI doubt you'll find much interest in non-traditional songs here. Try
rec.music.folk. Many there remember old pop songs, even very obscure
ones.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Patrick Flemming
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 4 May 2001 10:12:24 -0400
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I've added a footnote the the tune direction "Patrick Flemmen he was a
valiant souldier" for "The Downfal of the Whiggs", c 1684, ZN787 in the
broadside ballad index on my website. I've also added a reference to a
much later reprinted copy of "Patrick Flemming".Versions have been around a while under several names, e.g.,
"McCollister/ The Irish Robber/ Whiskey in the Jar" (Roud #533, Laws
L13B&A).Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Something for the Library
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 4 May 2001 08:24:39 -0700
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Folks:The William Andrews Clark Memorial Library in 1986 printed a 54-page
softcover book "The Ballad and the Scholars:  Approaches to Ballad
Study," containing thoughtful essays by D.K. Wilgus and Barre Toelken.This is well worth adding to any folklore, song, ballad collection.Copies are available at no cost by writing:Ms. Fran Anderson
William Andrews Clark Memorial Library
2520 Cimarron Street
Los Angeles, Ca. 90018Ed

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Subject: Rising Sun Hall
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 4 May 2001 14:26:59 -0400
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Recently, when I was going through a microfilm of R. W. Gordon's mss
at the LC, I came across the letter about "The Rising Sun Dance Hall"
to which Ted Anthony referred in his AP news article of September 17,
2000, on "House of the Rising Sun" (http://forums.texnews.com/).
Quoting Anthony, "Out of this, it seems 'Rising Sun Blues' - aka
'House in New Orleans' or even 'Rising Sun Dance Hall' - bubbled up."
The "even" makes it sound like Anthony considered "The Rising Sun
Dance Hall" to be an improbable title.  For reasons given below, I
think it should be followed up.The New Orleans City Directory includes "Rising Sun Hall" in several
years around 1900 (1896, 1897, 1900, 1901; I haven't yet checked the
years between 1879 and 1896), both as an alphabetical entry and as a
classified entry under the heading "Public Halls, Buildings, Blocks,
and Markets."  In 1900, it is listed as "Rising Sun Society Hall,
1015 Valence," leading one to suspect that there was a "Rising Sun
Society," although I suppose that an alternative interpretation could
be that "Society" means "Social," so that its meaning might be
"Rising Sun Social Hall" and there might not have been a "Rising Sun
Society."I note also that, according to Al Rose's Storyville, p 215, quoting
The Daily Picayune of Tuesday, March 25, 1913, "Dance halls have had
several years' life in the city," implying that they came to New
Orleans around 1900.  In the Picayune article, and elsewhere, dance
halls are heavily associated with prostitution, so "Rising Sun Dance
Hall" is not at all an inapt title for a song about prostitution.
According to the Picayune, the dance hall girls were the lowest of
three strata of prostitutes, the others being "the women who inhabit
immoral houses and the women who habituate cafes, or cabarets."  The
Picayune says that the last two mingle freely with one another but
that both groups avoid the dance hall women.The particular identity of the historical House of the Rising Sun has
been an unsolved problem, although many, including myself, have
speculated about it.According to a post by Tom Hall, "[Dave van Ronk] went on to say he'd
been in New Orleans a few years back, and looking through some old
turn of the century photographs of the city, he came across a photo
of a large old building with a big fence and gate in front.  Perched
over the gate was a huge wrought-iron image of the sun rising.  Dave
says he asked a historian what the building had been, and was told it
had been the old New Orleans Women's Prison.  Van Ronk then went on
to elaborate how several of the more obscure verses to the song DO
seem to be much more indicative of a prison than of a brothel..."I've noted the beautiful rising sun glass transom pane that was over
the door of one of the most famous of all the Storyville whorehouses,
Lulu White's Mahogany Hall (see Rose, Storyville, p 83).  It seems to
me that the combination of the presence of this pane over the front
door and the fame of this establishment make it a good candidate for
the House of the Rising Sun.However, if Rising Sun (Society) Hall should turn out to be a dance
hall, or something like it, I would abandon my suspicion about
Mahogany Hall, in favor of Rising Sun Hall, as the House of the
Rising Sun.I'm looking for assistance or tips on checking out the nature of
Rising Sun Hall.  Does anyone live in New Orleans that would be
willing to make inquiries at such places as the Williams Research
Center, the New Orleans Public Library, and the Hogan Jazz Archives
at Tulane?  I've had limited success querying some of these places by
e-mail.  Each of these, however, has at least answered my e-mail
messages on most occasions.  Another place that likely has
information about Rising Sun Hall, the New Orleans Notarial Archives
(Research Center at 1340 Poydras Street, Suite 360) simply does not
respond to my e-mail inquiries at all.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Rising Sun Hall
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 4 May 2001 11:47:16 -0700
Content-Type:TEXT/PLAIN
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John:If you can get a street address, you can probably get tax rolls, owners'
names.  That opens court records.  And it might even lead to city fines
(if any) for public health offenses (if any), fire department shakedowns,
etc.Ed

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Subject: Re: Patrick Flemming
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 10 May 2001 16:42:23 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> I've added a footnote the the tune direction "Patrick Flemmen he was a
> valiant souldier" for "The Downfal of the Whiggs", c 1684, ZN787 in the
> broadside ballad index on my website. I've also added a reference to a
> much later reprinted copy of "Patrick Flemming".
>
> Versions have been around a while under several names, e.g.,
> "McCollister/ The Irish Robber/ Whiskey in the Jar" (Roud #533, Laws
> L13B&A).
>
> Bruce Olson
> --The song on Patrick Flemming was probably around by the end of 1650.<A href="http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/etext/newgate/flemming.htm">
Patrick Flemming </a>--
Old English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Clarification
From: Judy McCulloh <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Judith McCulloh <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 10 May 2001 18:02:08 -0500
Content-Type:TEXT/PLAIN
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Dear BALLAD-L,A clarification:  The 1986 paperback _The Ballad and the Scholars:
Approaches to Ballad Study_ is *not* available at no cost, as noted
earlier on this list, from the William Andrews Clark Memorial Library at
UCLA.  It is available (though supplies are limited) for $5.00, plus $3.50
shipping ($8.50 total).Please order the book fromMs. Fran Andersen
William Andrews Clark Memorial Library
2520 Cimarron Street
Los Angeles, CA  90018Checks should be made out to:  Clark Library, UCLA.JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL  61820-6975
(217) 244-4681
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Clarification
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 10 May 2001 16:05:10 -0700
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Folks:Sorry for the confusion/misunderstanding on my part.  The slender volume
is worth the $8.50.Still, I got mine free.  So nahhhh!EdOn Thu, 10 May 2001, Judy McCulloh wrote:> Dear BALLAD-L,
>
> A clarification:  The 1986 paperback _The Ballad and the Scholars:
> Approaches to Ballad Study_ is *not* available at no cost, as noted
> earlier on this list, from the William Andrews Clark Memorial Library at
> UCLA.  It is available (though supplies are limited) for $5.00, plus $3.50
> shipping ($8.50 total).
>
> Please order the book from
>
> Ms. Fran Andersen
> William Andrews Clark Memorial Library
> 2520 Cimarron Street
> Los Angeles, CA  90018
>
> Checks should be made out to:  Clark Library, UCLA.
>
> Judy
>
> Judith McCulloh
> Assistant Director and Executive Editor
> University of Illinois Press
> 1325 South Oak Street
> Champaign, IL  61820-6975
> (217) 244-4681
> [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Patrick Flemming
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 11 May 2001 10:03:03 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Note that copies of the older form of the ballad, Laws L
13B, were both collected by Helen Hartness Flanders, but with
'McCollister' and 'Lovel' instead of 'Patrick Flemming' as the robber.Notes on the song in 'The New Green Mountain Songster' connect it
to "Patrick Flemming" via a letter of 1821 from Sir Walter Scott
to his son. Mention is made at the end of the notes to another Vermont
version, "Captain Neville", published in 1932.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: 18th century Huth broadside ballad collection
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 11 May 2001 11:14:55 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Help.Henry Huth amassed collections of 16, 17, and 18th century
broadside ballads. The 16th century ones were published in 1867
and 1870 in 'A Collection of 69 Black-Letter Ballads and
Broadsides', and the collection is now in BL. His 17th century
collection was acquired by Harvard after the Harvard catalog was
published in 1905, and has not been added to subsequent reprints,
but are listed in the broadside ballad index on my website.Where did his 18th century collection go? I once saw, and made a
note of the location, but have lost it. My memory is that it went
to a small college in New England, but which one? The Huth
library catalog notes a batch of 36 came from the George Daniel
collection, most of which were Bow-Churchyard imprints. Bow-
Churchyard and Aldermary Churchyard imprints are common. It's the
others I'm after.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: A question of propriety
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 15 May 2001 18:51:33 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Several list members have asked me to post new CD releases from CAMSCO
Music that may be of interest to the list members. Is this appropriate
behaviour? or is it reasonable to ask interested parties to E-mail me
directly to get the information?There's a whole bunch of great stuff available, especially from the UK.
This availablityt is not  known to enough people, I feel. And I do like
to sell CDs..

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 15 May 2001 17:54:28 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Let me weigh in as the owner of Ballad-L.  My own preference is that the
list be used solely as a discussion list, and not as a venue for
advertising.  However, I'm not an autocrat, and I think that the decision
should be made through consensus.  Let me say, too, that I, personally,
would be interested in your new CD's.  as you suggest, one way to go might
be to say thaat you have new CD'S available, and that interested folks
should contact you.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of dick greenhaus
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 5:52 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: A question of proprietySeveral list members have asked me to post new CD releases from CAMSCO
Music that may be of interest to the list members. Is this appropriate
behaviour? or is it reasonable to ask interested parties to E-mail me
directly to get the information?There's a whole bunch of great stuff available, especially from the UK.
This availablityt is not  known to enough people, I feel. And I do like
to sell CDs..

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 15 May 2001 18:57:55 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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On 5/15/01, Marge Steiner wrote:>Let me weigh in as the owner of Ballad-L.  My own preference is that the
>list be used solely as a discussion list, and not as a venue for
>advertising.  However, I'm not an autocrat, and I think that the decision
>should be made through consensus.  Let me say, too, that I, personally,
>would be interested in your new CD's.  as you suggest, one way to go might
>be to say thaat you have new CD'S available, and that interested folks
>should contact you.Just speaking for myself, I'd rather that *somebody* did announce
when new CDs become available. Even if it means that we have different
people announcing local artists.The reason is simple: I have a good local record store (the Homestead
Pickin' Parlor). With no offense intended to anyone, I *will* buy
my recordings there. But the one problem the Pickin' Parlor has is
that it's very disorganized; they never send out new releases lists
any more. So I don't know what's available!If Dick, or anyone else, is willing to tell us that, I will use
the information for my own purposes. He won't make a dime off
me. :-) I'd regard a list of new releases as a public service,
I really would.Put it this way: If Dick were posting the list, *without* attempting
to sell anything, would we object? I think not. As long as he posts
the list, and doesn't start putting in banner ads or a bunch of
JavaScript code in the messages or something like that, I'd like
to see the list out where we all can learn from it.If Dick or anyone starts consistently announcing records we know
don't belong here, *then* we sit on him. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: George Madaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 15 May 2001 20:56:06 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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I would like to see the list. It would be helpful in keeping up with new
releases of CD that major stores do not carry."Robert B. Waltz" wrote:> On 5/15/01, Marge Steiner wrote:
>
> >Let me weigh in as the owner of Ballad-L.  My own preference is that the
> >list be used solely as a discussion list, and not as a venue for
> >advertising.  However, I'm not an autocrat, and I think that the decision
> >should be made through consensus.  Let me say, too, that I, personally,
> >would be interested in your new CD's.  as you suggest, one way to go might
> >be to say thaat you have new CD'S available, and that interested folks
> >should contact you.
>
> Just speaking for myself, I'd rather that *somebody* did announce
> when new CDs become available. Even if it means that we have different
> people announcing local artists.
>
> The reason is simple: I have a good local record store (the Homestead
> Pickin' Parlor). With no offense intended to anyone, I *will* buy
> my recordings there. But the one problem the Pickin' Parlor has is
> that it's very disorganized; they never send out new releases lists
> any more. So I don't know what's available!
>
> If Dick, or anyone else, is willing to tell us that, I will use
> the information for my own purposes. He won't make a dime off
> me. :-) I'd regard a list of new releases as a public service,
> I really would.
>
> Put it this way: If Dick were posting the list, *without* attempting
> to sell anything, would we object? I think not. As long as he posts
> the list, and doesn't start putting in banner ads or a bunch of
> JavaScript code in the messages or something like that, I'd like
> to see the list out where we all can learn from it.
>
> If Dick or anyone starts consistently announcing records we know
> don't belong here, *then* we sit on him. :-)
>
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 1078 Colne Street
> Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
> 651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html--
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 15 May 2001 21:21:39 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> Several list members have asked me to post new CD releases from CAMSCO
> Music that may be of interest to the list members. Is this appropriate
> behaviour? or is it reasonable to ask interested parties to E-mail me
> directly to get the information?
>
> There's a whole bunch of great stuff available, especially from the UK.
> This availablityt is not  known to enough people, I feel. And I do like
> to sell CDs..
[Again I forgot to look at the return address, so this went
previously to Marge Steiner only]I for one am for it, and wouldn't mind Sandy Paton, John Mouden,
and Margaret MacArthur (all of whose websites, and only those of any
sellers, you can click on from my homepage) doing the same. If you
search the Ballad-L Archives for the 'CAMSCO' address you'll see that
the former owner of Camsco Music did it many times, and I don't recall
any objections.These, I am sure, would be as Wally did them- announcements, and
not advertisements. None of the above have ever gone to blatant
abvertising to the best of my knowledge. There were many good
recordings from both the USA and the British Isles in the 1960s and
1970s that I either couldn't afford at the time, or didn't even
know about, that I would be happy to find reissued on CDs now.Bruce Olson--
Old English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 15 May 2001 22:33:25 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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Hi folks:How about this: Dick posts a simple list (artist(s), title, label and
whether it's a reissue), with a URL to a place where we can get a fuller
description should we so choose? (I personally would rather have the full
descriptions out front, but I know some listmembers need to limit the amount
of material in their inboxes.) Ditto Sandy & Margaret, please!Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: James Moreira <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 00:13:48 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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I thought we agreed some time ago that recording and book announcements
were welcome, as long as they were identified as such in the subject
heading.  Then those not interested could delete without having to open
the item first.Cheers
Jamie

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Subject: new book
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 16:24:20 +0100
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(44 lines)


Got this from another mailing list.  Looks like it ought to be of
interest to people here?>Date sent:              Wed, 16 May 2001 12:47:25 +0100
>From:                   Stephen Miller <[unmask]>
>Subject:                Fwd: Gavin Greig 'The Subject of Folksong' : New Book
>
>>An unashamed plug for a book I have just edited bringing together pieces
>>(major and minor)  by Gavin Greig. Copies are available from myself for
>>£14.95 (including p&p). Should anyone be interested in obtaining a copy,
>>simply email me.
>>
>>Contents:
>>1 On Two Buchan Songs (1899)
>>2 A Lease of Life in Buchan (1899)
>>3 Folksong in Buchan (1905)
>>4 Northern Rustic or Bothy Songs (1906)
>>5 Northern Rustic or Bothy Songs (2) (1907)
>>6 The Traditional Minstrelsy of the North-East of Scotland (1908)
>>7 Folk Song Research (1909)
>>8 The Traditional Minstrelsy of Buchan (1910)
>>9 Some Buchan Songs: (1) The Buchan Turnpike (1914)
>>10 Some Buchan Songs: (2) Johnnie Sangster (1914)
>>
>> From Folk-Song of the North-East (1909 & 1914)
>>11 Collecting Folk Songs from the North-East
>>
>>12 Obituary Notice by the Rev. James B. Duncan (1915)
>>
>>Stephen Miller
>
>  ---------------------------------------------------------
>   Stephen Miller
>   Faculty Office
>   Faculty of Social Sciences
>   University of Glasgow
>   Glasgow G12 8RT      0141 339 8855 extn 0223 (ansaphone)
>   http://www.gla.ac.uk/socialsciences-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 10:07:01 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:

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On Tue, May 15, 2001 at 06:51:33PM -0400, dick greenhaus wrote:
> Several list members have asked me to post new CD releases from CAMSCO
> Music that may be of interest to the list members. Is this appropriate
> behaviour? or is it reasonable to ask interested parties to E-mail me
> directly to get the information?
>
> There's a whole bunch of great stuff available, especially from the UK.
> This availablityt is not  known to enough people, I feel. And I do like
> to sell CDs..        My Own Opinion (Not Influenced atall by my acquaintance with Dick):
Post Ahead!  I'm sure I can tell the difference between hyperheated hype
and honest reviews (if that's what you're offering), and I do have control
of my Delete key.  Thanks! -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: "David G. Engle" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 13:00:36 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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Hi, all  (I guess I'm back...)I would certainly agree with Dick, Bob, Bruce, George, Paul, Jamie and Lani
for all the various reasons, not the least being "thirst for knowledge"
[thinly disguising thirst for tunes] nor my control of the delete key.As a gesture to those who do not want such listings and announcements I
would suggest clearly labelled subject lines, like "list of new recordings
available at CAMSCO"that's my tuppence, anyway.DavidDavid G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang        The Traditional Ballad Index:
        http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

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Subject: List of (mostly) new recordings from CAMSCO
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 16:17:31 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Well, nobody seems to object violently, so here goes:The English are Coming! (along with the Irish, Scots and Welsh!)
A partial listing of traditional music from overseas made recently available
through CAMSCO Music! ([unmask])  or 800/5458-3655 US)VTC1CD STEPPING IT OUT!
'Traditional folk music, songs and dances from England'
A Compilation sampler CD of some of the best tracks from the first
twenty-five Veteran cassettesVTC2CD SONGS SUNG IN SUFFOLK
'Popular Folk Songs, Old Songs and Ballads'
At last the classic Songs Sung in Suffolk series available on CD (28
tracks)VTC3CD COMIC SONGS SUNG IN SUFFOLK
'Comic Songs, Music Hall Songs and Parodies'
Probably the most popular part of the series 'Comic' songs (29 tracks)VT129CD I'VE COME TO SING A SONG
'Cornish Family Songs' Vic Legg.VT131CD WHEN THE MAY IS ALL IN BLOOM Traditional singers from the the
South East: Bob Copper, John Copper, Louie Fuller, Gordon Hall, Bob Lewis, Ron
Spicer A past top ten album of the year in the Folk Roots critics pollVT134CD LINKIN' O'ER THE LEA
Traditional folk songs and ballads from Tempo, Co. Fermanagh sung by
Maggy Murphy. Maggy was a highlight of the influential 1960s Caedmon LP
series and over thirty years on she is still a singer to be reckoned with!VT137CD THE GIRLS ALONG THE ROAD
Traditional songs ballads and whistle tunes from Co. Antrim
John KennedyVT138CD PROPER JOB
Melodeon playing from Dartmoor recorded 1952-1988
Bob CannVT139CD MOOR MUSIC
Mark Bazeley and Jason Rice Grandsons of Dartmoor legends Bob Cann and
Jack Rice, these twenty-somethings take their native music into the next
century.VT140CD GOOD ORDER!
'Traditional singing & music from The Eel's Foot, Eastbridge Suffolk
recorded in the 1930s & 40s' The BBC broadcast from this remote rural pub
in 1939 and 1947 and for the first time ever these remarkable recordings are
available on CD with a 18 page booklet crammed with photographs.CDSDL405 SEA SONGS & SHANTIES 'Traditional English Sea Songs & Shanties from
the last days of Sail' : Bob Roberts, Cadgwith Fishermen, Bob & Ron Copper,
Harry
Cox, Sarah Makem, Clifford Jenkins, Bill Barber, Tom Brown. Peter Kennedy's
recordings of classic sea songs including 14 tracks of Bob Roberts.CDSDL425 ENGLISH CUSTOMS & TRADITIONS 'English Calendar Customs'
including Padstow May Day, Helston Furry Dance, Bampton Morris, Headington
Morris, Abbotts Bromley Horn Dance, The Gower Wassail and Antrobus Soulcakers.
(CD only)MTCD301-2 BOB HART 'A Broadside' 46 track double CD produced from recordings
made by Rod Stradling and Bill Leader of this important Suffolk singer. Comes
with
a A5 booklet. (double CD and A5 booklet)MTCD303 CYRIL POACHER 'Plenty of Thyme' Compilation of recordings of the
great Suffolk traditional singer. (CD and A5 booklet)MTCD304 GEORGE TOWNSEND 'Come hand me a glass' Private recording of a
Sussex singer (CD and A5 booklet)MTCD305-6 WALTER PARDON 'Put a bit of powder on it, Father' A double album
Of the recordings not used on the Topic Walter Pardon CD. (CD and A5 booklet)MTCD307 WIGGY SMITH 'Band of Gold' The exuberant Gloucestershire traveller
plus songs from other family members Wisdom Smith, Denny Smith and Biggun
Smith. (CD and A5 booklet)SDCD008 JIM & LYNETTE ELDON
A 32 track CD! Songs, tunes and clog stepping in the usual great style that
you would expect from the Eldons.OH-1CD THE OLD HAT CONCERT PARTY Reg Reader, Font Whatling, Ted
Chaplin, Tony Harvey, Cyril Barber etc. East Anglian music, song & stepdancing.OH-2CD THE OLD HAT DANCE BAND Lively dance music from England and
beyond.OH-3CD KATIES QUARTET The third installment of the liveliest dance music
around.OH-4CD UNBUTTONED Katie Howson & Jeannie Harris A double helping of
one-row four stop melodeons, and unaccompanied ballads from Jeannie.EFDSSCD02 A CENTURY OF SONG 'A celebration of traditional singers since 1898'
Produced to mark one hundred years since the foundation of the Folk Song
Society. An anthology of 25 tracks of singers from all over the country
including
6 rare tracks taken from early cylinder recordings.EFDSSCD03 ABSOLUTELY CLASSIC 'The Music of William Kimber'
Archive recordings of the famed Headington Quarry anglo concertina player.
This CD marks the centenary of Cecil Sharp's first meeting with him. An
'enhanced'
 CD which includes some archival film.  NB audio tracks play on a normal CD
player & the visual content can be viewed via your CD-ROM drive.TSCD511 SAM LARNER 'Now is the time for fishing' At last one of the albums of
traditional singing available on CD.TSCD512D HARRY COX 'THe Bonny Labouring Boy' The long awaited double CD
Of the master of English traditional singers. Making almost his whole
repertoire now available. essential! (Double CD )TSCD514 WALTER PARDON 'A world with horses' A classic album of another
classic Norfolk singerTSCD600 HIDDEN ENGLISH The Who's Who of English traditional singers and
musicians selected mainly from the Topic back catalogue. Billy Bennington,
Walter
& Daisy Bulwer, Bob Cann, Billy Cooper, Harry Cox,  Johnny Doughty, Louise
Fuller, Bob Hart, Fred Jordan, William Kimber, Sam Larner, Pop Maynard, Walter
Pardon, Billy Pigg, Cyril Poacher, Bob Roberts, Jasper Smith, Phoebe Smith,
Joseph
Taylor, Scan Tester, Tintagel & Boscastle Players, Tom Willett, Eely Whent,
Oscar
Woods.TSCD607 ENGLISH COUNTRY MUSIC This is the album for those who are
interested in English Country Music. Featuring Norfolk great Billy Cooper
(dulcimer) Walter Bulwer (fiddle) and Daisy Bulwer (piano).HEBECD001 WILD BOYS Will Duke & Dan Quinn The not so wild boys play and
Sing songs from England and Ireland with fine accompaniments on anglo
concertina
 and  melodeon.EAR015CD JOE HUTTON 'Northumberland Piper ' One of the finest exponents of
the small pipes. An exemplary album.RDR 1741 ENGLAND 'World Library of Folk and Primitive Music Vol. 1
Field recordings made in England by American folklorist Alan Lomax.
Including: Stanley Slade, Royal Earlsdon Sword Dancers, Jim & Bob Copper,
Bert Pidgeon (melodeon) & Alf Tuck (fiddle drum), Jack Armstrong's
Barnstormers,
Phil Tanner, Symondsbury Mummer's Play, Padstow May song, Jumbo Brightwell
And William Kimber.RDR 1839 HARRY COX 'What will become of England? Alan Lomax and Peter
Kennedy recorded Harry including some interesting introductions and interviews
which are interspersed here between the singing. (CD only)SFWCD40473 NORTHUMBERLAND RANT 'Traditional Music from the edge of
England' A fine selection of instrumental music from the likes of Billy Pigg,
Jack
Armstrong, Joe Hutton and Will Atkinson.SFWCD40473 ENGLISH VILLAGE CAROLS 'Traditional Christmas Carols from the
South Pennines' A compilation of Ian Russell's recordings around the now famousSouth Yorkshire pubs where proper carols are still sung every Christmas.NLCD3 SONGS FROM THE COMPANY OF THE BUTLEY OYSTER Bob Hart,
'Jumbo' Brightwell, Percy Webb etc. Late 1960's recordings from this once
lively
singing pub.FECD122 THE RED HAIRED LAD Bob Davenport & the Rakes Great songs, great
tunes. One of the classic combinations of the past thirty years.FECD155 PETA WEBB & KEN HALL 'As close as can be' A long awaited album
From these two stalwarts of  traditional singing sessions.WFW26CD 'Good Old Boys at Whitby Folk Week' Traditional guests that have been
booked over the years at the festival including: Will Atkinson, Packie Byrne,
Ernest
Dyson, Joe Hutton, Fred Jordon and Willy Taylor.CRD01 JOHNNY O'LEARY of Sliabh Luchra The melodeon master at his best
along with his regular partner these days guitarist Tim Kiely. The recordings
include live set dancing at the famed Dan O'Connell's pub in Knocknagree.CRCD02 THE FOUR STAR TRIO 'The Square Triangle' Excellent Cork based band
specialising in their local music.CRCD03 THE CROPPY'S COMPLAINT 'Music & Songs of 1798'
As expected there has been a whole rake of albums this year marking the
uprising of '98, but this is one of the picks of the litter!
Includes: Mick O'Brian, Jim McFarland, Sean Tyrell, Frank Harte, Eamon
Brophy, TheFour Star Trio,Jerry O'Reilly, Sean Garvey, Aine Ui Cheallaigh, Tim
 Lyons, Roisin White, Barry Gleeson, Terry Timmins and Luke Cheevers.HB 014 1798, The First Year of Fredom: Frank Harte w Donal Lunny. A fine
production of well-rersearched , well selected and well sung songs of the
period.OSSCD3 FOLK MUSIC AND DANCES OF IRELAND 'A complete initiation on
Traditional Irish Music' Sean Ac Donncha, John Reilly, John Kelly, Michael
Tubridy,
Paddy O Brien, Sean Keane. Samples of all types of Irish dance music and
the instruments they're played on. Plus songs sung in Irish and English.
This album is produced in conjunction with Brendan Breathnach's book of the
same title (IRB7), which is a complete course in the history of Irish music.OSSCD8 THE RUSSELL FAMILY Miko, Pakie, Gussie Russell. The famed Doolin
family play their distinctive County Clare music on flute, anglo concertina andwhistle. Plus three songs from Miko.OSSCD10 KERRY FIDDLES Padraig O Keeffe, Denis Murphy, Julia Clifford.
Fiddle Music from Sliabh Luachra (The Rushy Mountain). On the Cork /Kerry
borders, this is one of the most musically rich areas of Ireland. *OSSCD12 THE WANDERING MINSTREL Seamus Ennis. The man himself, with one
 of the finest selections of Uilleann Pipe music; Double Jigs, Hornpipes, Slow
Airs
and Set Dances.OSSCD13 THE LARK IN THE CLEAR AIR 'Traditional music played on small
instruments' John Doonan, Paddy Moran, Paddy Neylon, Noel Pepper, John,
Dave & Mike Wright. Airs and dance tunes played on 'Pocket Instruments' like
piccolo, whistle, flute, spoons, mouth organ and jews harp.OSSCD17 MASTER FIDDLER OF DONEGAL John Doherty. Field recordings made
in 1977 when Johnny Doherty was 83 years old, yet he shows that he was the
master
of the Donegal fiddle style.OSSCD22 IRISH TRADITIONAL SONGS IN GAELIC & ENGLISH Joe Heaney. This
Is simply Irish singing at it's best. There are few who would argue with this
album
being described as the best album ever of Irish singing. *OSSCD23 THE MINSTREL OF CLARE Willie Clancy. Milltown Malbay, Co. Clare
has become famous for it's internationally renowned festival of music and
singing,
which takes it's name from the remarkable uilleann piper Willie Clancy. Here heshows just how good he was.OSSCD28 GRAND AIRS OF CONNEMARA Festy Conlan, Sean ac Dhonncha,
 Padraic O Cathain, Tomas O Neachtain. Mainly songs in Irish, plus tin whistle
airs
from the Irish-speaking parts of the rugged area of Galway known as
Connemara.OSSCD53 TOTALLY TRADITIONAL TIN WHISTLES Willie Clancy, Micko Russell,
John Doonan, Fintan Vallely,
Josie McDermott, Michael Tubridy, Cathal McConnell. 16 tracks of the all
time ace players on this modest little instrument.VVCD006 PACKIE DOLAN 'The Forgotten Fiddle Player of the 1920's' Dance
band tunes and songs from this Longford player recorded in New York.VVCD007 THE FLANAGAN BROTHERS 'The Tunes We Like to Play on Paddy's
Day' 78rpm recordings with none repeated from the old Topic album.CEFCD161 MICHAEL COLEMAN A beautifully packaged set featuring the music of
Ireland's most influential traditional fiddle playerCEFCD132 JOHHNY O'LEARY 'The Trooper' One of Ireland's greatest melodeon
players with a heady set of polkas, jigs, reels and hornpipes.SHA 34019 JOE HEANEY 'From My Tradition' CD release of the classic Gael-Linn
album.CD78015 JAMES KEANE 'With Friends Like These' Ex-Dublin melodeon player
who has since made his name in New York. Here he is joined by an impressive
array
of old friends, including: Kevin Conneff, Paddy Glackin, Matt Molloy,
Liam O'Flynn and Tommy Peoples.GOLCD1178 THE TULLA CEILI BAND 'A celebration of 50 years' Superb dance
music from the famous East Clare Bandled by P.J.Hayes.CC1CD THE KING OF THE PIPERS Leo Rowsome The first album of Uilleann pipes
ever made, by a great twentieth century master. The title says it all.CC11CD THE DRONES AND THE CHANTERS 'An Anthology of Irish Pipering'
Seamus Ennis, Peader Broe, Leo Rowsome, Paddy Moloney, Dan Dowd, Tommy
Peck, Willie Clancy. Seven masters show the range of their ullieann pipers
technique.CC31CD THE FLOATING BOW John Doherty 'The' Donegal fiddle master recorded
when he was in his prime, with little duplication with other available
recordings.CC32CD THE PIPERING OF WILLIE CLANCY Vol. 1 This album gives an excellent
insight into the music of one of Ireland's greatest traditional musicians
Pipers and
non-pipers will delight in it!CC39CD THE PIPERING OF WILLIE CLANCY Vol. 2 Another helping of Miltown
Malbay's beloved piper.CC44 THE BRASS FIDDLE 'Traditional fiddle music from Donegal' Vincent
Campbell, Con Cassidy, James Byrne, Francie Byrne. South West Donegal has
probably the most sophisticated fiddle playing in Ireland. Here we have four ofthe best players with many tunes which were previously not heard outside
Donegal.CC52CD THE ROAD TO GLENLOUGH James Byrne, Dermot McLaughlin, Dermot Byrne,
Peter Carr, Sean Byrne. More rare fiddle music from this neglected tradition.CC55CD THE TRIP TO CULLENSTOWN Phil, John and Pip Murphy. This Wexford
family have shown how the humble mouthorgan can cope with the complexities of
Irish music. This album is a revelation!CC60CD MARY MacNAMARA with P.J. & Martin Haynes 'Traditional music from
East Clare' Superb old fashioned anglo concertina music from the region known
for
the famous Tulla Ceili Band.CCF32CD THE BLACKBERRY BLOSSOM Mary MacNamara Her second album of
Stunning East Clare concertina playing.COMD2079 IRISH TRADITIONAL MUSIC Recordings made by Robin Morton in the
1960s and 70s including Sean McLoon (pipes) Seamus Horan (fiddle) Packie Duigan(flute) and John Rae (dulcimer).CC5 THE COLEMAN ARCHIVE Vol. 1 'The Living Tradition' 34 tracks of
musicians recorded from the 1940s to the late 1990s, all continuing Michael
Coleman's tradition.RDR 1087 FROM GALWAY TO DUBLIN Frank Quinn, Delia Murphy, Liam Walsh,
Leo Rowsome, DanSullivan's Shamrock Band. A superb varied selection of Irish
music and songs from 1921 to 1959.RDR 1123 MILESTONE AT THE GARDEN 'Fiddle Music from 78s' More excellent
material from the archives.RDR 1742 IRELAND 'World Library of Folk and Primitive Music Vol.11' Field
recordings made in Ireland by American folklorist Alan Lomax. Including:
Seamus Ennis, Elizabeth Cronin, Mickey Doherty, Ballinakill Ceilidhe band,
Margaret Barry and Sean 'ac Dhonnchadha.RDR 1774 MARGARET BARRY 'I Sang Through the Fairs' Another of the
'Portraits' series of Lomax recordings including 5 tracks of interview.RDR 4284 BALLINASLOE FAIR 'Early Recordings of Irish Music in America'
1920's recordings including:Packie Dolan, Dan Sullivan's Shamrock Band and
Murty Rabett.CDSDL 411 TRADITIONAL SONGS OF IRELAND The McPeake Trio, Margaret
Barry, Seamus Ennis, Jim O'Neill, Hudie Devaney, Kitty Gallagher, Thomas Moran,Liam O Connor, Francis McKearn, Annie Jane Kelly, Elizabeth Cronin. More of
Peter Kennedy's 1950's recordings (CD only)CDSDL 420 TRADITIONAL DANCE MUSIC OF IRELAND Kennedy's recordings
of Irish music made in England and Ireland with The Jimmy Hogan Trio, Johnny
Doherty, Sean Maguire, Michael Gorman & Margaret Barry, Paddy Taylor,
The McCusker Brothers Ceili Band, Tom Turkington, Paddy Breen.RTECD174 PADRAIG O'KEEFE The Sliabh Luachra fiddle master' The master of
this Kerry /Cork fiddle style from the RTE radio archives.RTECD178 ROISE Na nAMHRAN 'Songs of a Donegal Woman' Known as 'the
Woman of songs'; she was recorded in the 1950's by RTE when she was in her
70's.
Excellent stuff. Highly recommended. Includes a book with translations.RTECD183 DENIS MURPHY New album of previously un-released tracks from the
masters of Sliabh Luachra music.RTECD185 AMHRAIN AR AN SEAN-NOS An archive collection of the finest of
unaccompanied singing in Irish.RTECD178 ROISE Na nAMHRAN 'Songs of a Donegal Woman' recorded in the
1950s when she was in her 70s. Highly recommended. Includes a book of
translations into English.RTECD196 THE DONEGAL FIDDLE Recorded by Ciaron MacMathuna and Seamus
 Ennis between 1949 and 1957 including many classic players.RTECD199 SEAMUS ENNIS 'Return to Fingal' Recordings of his early years when
he was at his peak.RTECD225 MRS ELIZABETH CROTTY Classic archival recordings of one of
Ireland's most influencial concertina players from Kilrush in West Clare.TSCD471 LEO ROWSOME 'Classics of Irish Piping' A superb collection of
recordings made between 1926 & 48.TSCD474 HER MANTLE SO GREEN Margaret Barry & Michael Gorman The Queen
 Of the London Irish pub singers in the scene's hey-day in mid 1950's. Plus
tunes
from formidable Gorman and Martin Byrnes. Some extra tracks that were not
on the original Topic LP.TSCD604 JOE HEANEY 'The Road to Connemara' One of the world's greatest
tradional singers recorded in 1964 at the height of his powers. (Double CD )TSCD602 IRISH DANCE MUSIC Frank Quinn, Michael Coleman, Erin's Pride
Orchestra, Kincora Ceilidhe Band etc. Originally released on Folkways records
this amazing collection of 78 recordings has been revamped and enlarged by
it's original editor Reg Hall.TSCD603 PADDY IN THE SMOKE Irish dance music recorded at the Favourite
Pub in London. Featuring amongst others, Martin Byrnes, Danny Meehan, Bobby
Casey, Jimmy Power, Julia Clifford and Lucy Farr.TSCD604 PAST MASTERS OF IRISH MUSIC A compilation made by Reg Hall from
Irish musicians on 78s. Including The Belhavel Trio, The Pride of Erin
Orchestra,
The Four Provinces Orchestra, Peter Colon, Micheal Grogan, The
Falanagan Brothers, Seamus Ennis and The Aughruim Slopes Ceilidhe Band.Clo lar-Chonnachta
CICD006 AN SPAILPIN FANACH Sean'ac Dhonncha Classic Sean Nos singing from
the legendary Connamara singer performing here at his best.CICD013 CONTAE MHUIGHEO Johnny Mhairtin Learai Described as one of the
sweetest, most sensitive and most natural singers of West ConnemaraCICD110 THE FERTILE ROCK Chris Droney Anglo concertina music from Co.
Clare played in the old style by one of the great players of traditional music.CICD113 AN BUACHAILL DREAITE Joe Ryan Superb old fashioned fiddle playing
from the legendary Clare fiddler.CICD127 JOHNNY CONNOLLY 'Ireland's greatest melodeon player' Connemara
One row box playing.CICD129 PADDY CANNY 'Traditional Music from the Legendary East Clare
Fiddler' The leader of famed Tulla Ceili Band.CICD138 SPARKES ON FLAGS The Bridge Ceili Band This is one of the great
ceili bands from County Laois. They make a remarkable sound being led by five
fiddles. This is a classic ceili band record.GTRAX 108CD I SANG THAT SWEET REFRAIN Kevin Mitchell A new album from the
popular Glasgow based Ulster singer.CNF001 THE FIDDLE MUSIC OF DONEGAL VOL 1 The first CD of a new series
which will log this thriving living tradition.CNF002 THE FIDDLE MUSIC OF DONEGAL 'VOL 2' More fiddle music from the
current masters of the Donegal tradition. Includes: Vincent Campbell, Maurice
Bradley, Stephen Campbell, James Byrne  and Ronan Galvin.CNF003 THE FIDDLE MUSIC OF DONEGAL 'VOL 3' The next in the series this
time featuring Dermot McLaughlin, John Byrne, Matthew McGranaghan, Jimmy
and Peter Campbell.MMCD52 TOMMY McCARTHY 'Sporting Nell' Famed London/ Irish anglo
Concertina player who has moved back to
West Clare.TERRCD001 PATH ACROSS THE OCEAN Barry Gleeson Songs of emigration
from one of stalwarts of the Goilin  Singers Club in Dublin. Rich, resonant
singing
with vocal support from, Grace Toland, the Goilin singers and the Voice
Squad, plus accompaniment from Kevin Coniff on bodhran, Brenden Gleeson
On mandolin, Gay McKeon on uilleann pipes.BG007CD BOBBY GARDINER - 'The Clare Shout' 25 tracks of old fashioned
melodeon playing with some tracks recorded with 'live' set-dancing.KELERO001 KEVIN ROWSOME 'The Rowsome Tradition - Five generastions of
Uilleann Piping' Mainly Kevin solo and accompanied plus six archive tracks of
Leo
Rowsome, Leon Rowsome and Liam Rowsome.No number JOHN VESEY A rare recording of a very fine Sligo fiddler playing
43 sets of tunes.(Double CD )Bowhand011CD DANNY MEEHAN 'Navvy on the Shore' One of the early London
Irish fiddle playing legends with his own album at last. With accompaniment
from
Dermot Kearney, Mick O'Connell and Reg Hall.THE SONGS OF ELIZABETH CRONIN A lavish production containng the words of
150 songs with contextual notes plus two CDs contaning 59 songs. (book and
double
CD) Beautiful book, beautiful singing. A must.OSSCD92 JEANNIE ROBERTSON 'The Great Scots Traditional Ballad Singer'. A
sensitive interpreter of traditional ballads. Jeannie comes from travelling
stock and
she learned many of her songs around the campfire.OSSCD96 THE STEWARTS OF BLAIR Alex, Belle, Cathie and Sheila Stewart. The
famous travelling family who have made a major contribution to the collection
of
folk music in Scotland.OSSCD97 THE SINGING CAMPBELLS 'Traditions of an Aberdeen Family' Ian,
Lorna, Winnie, Dave, Betty & Bob Cooney A complete spectrum of folk-songs from
the North-East of Scotland including; street songs, love songs, and of course
the great bothy ballads.CDTRAX132 MARGARET STEWART 'Fhuir Mi Pog' Songs from Lewis in the Outer
Hebrides mostly accompanied by piper Allan McDonaldCDTRAX 9001 SCOTTISH TRADITIONS 1 'Bothy Ballads - Music from the
North-East' Jimmy MacBeath, JohnMacDonald, Charlie Murray, Jamie Taylor etc.
A great collection of traditional singing and tunes from the archives of
the School of Scottish Studies.CDTRAX 9002 SCOTTISH TRADITIONS 2 'Music of the Western Isles' Various
Artistes The second in the Tangent series of important Scottish traditional
music
now available on CD.CDTRAX 9003 SCOTTISH TRADITIONS 3 'Waulking Songs from Barra' Various
Artistes A collection of work songs from the Western Isles.CDTRAX 9004 SCOTTISH TRADITIONS 4 'Shetland Fiddle Music' Willy
Henderson & Bobby Jamieson, Tom Anderson, Bobby Peterson, Jimmy Johnson
with Pat Sutherland, William Hunter and the Gullivoe Traditional Fiddle band.
Recordings illustrating the distinctive arts of some of unaccompanied and
accompanied fiddlers.CDTRAX 9005 SCOTTISH TRADITIONS 5 'The Muckle Sangs - Classic Scots
Ballads' Jeannie Robertson, Lizzie Higgins, Betsy Whyte, Jane Turriff, Jimmie
McBeath . This is a classic album featuring some of Scotland's finest
traditional singers.CDTRAX 9006 SCOTTISH TRADITIONS 6 'Gaelic Psalms from Lewis' Various
Artistes A unique choral singing tradition, described as a moving experience!CDTRAX 9009 SCOTTISH TRADITIONS 9 'The Fiddler and his Art' Hugh Inkster,
Pat Shearer, Andrew Poleson, Donald MacDonell, Hector MacAndrew. Fiddle
music from five different regions of Scotland, including strathspeys,
reels, marches, waltzes & slow airs.CDTRAX 9009 SCOTTISH TRADITIONS 17 'Scottish Traditional Tales'
Concentrating on the story telling tradition this volume includes Betsy Whyte,
Davie Stewart, Andrew Stewart, Bella Higgins, Stanley Robertson, Tom Tulloch,
James Henderson and George Peterson. (Double CD )CDTRAX 9052 DAVIE STEWART The famed travelling street singer in all his
glory, singing with his unique melodeon accompaniment.CDTRAX 9053 JOHN McDONALD The Singing Molecatcher of Morayshire
The title tells all! With accordion accompaniment.CDTRAX 9054 WILLIE SCOTT The Shepherd's Song The classic album of the
great border singer available again.CDTRAX 9055 BELLE STEWART Queen Among the Heather The head of the
legendary Blairgowrie family.TSCD466 JOHN BURGESS 'King of the Highland Pipers' Probably the best
piping album ever produced from the phenomenal award-winner.TSCD469 THE SILVER BOW 'The Fiddle Music of Shetland' Tom Anderson & Aly
Bain. Shetland traditional fiddle music from these excellent musicians. Also
includes
 Davie Tulloch and Trevor Hunter.TSCD601 MELODEON GREATS 'A Collection of Melodeon Masterpieces'
Remarkable 78 rpm recordings from Peter & Daniel Wyper, James Brown, Fred
Cameron, Peter Leatham, Pamby Dick, Jack Williams, W F Cameron and
William HannahTSCD515 SHEILA STEWART 'From the heart of the tradition' The first album
from one of Scotlands best singers.SPRCD1038 SINGIN IS MA LIFE Jane Turriff The long awaited album from one
of Scotland's greatest singers, . A classic!RDR 1743 SCOTLAND 'World Library of Folk and Primitive Music 111' Field
recordings made in Scotland by American folklorist Alan Lomax. Including:
Glasgow Police Band, Jimmy Shand, John Strachan, Jimmy McBeath, Ewan
McColl, John Burgess and Flora MacNeill.RCD1720 JEANNIE ROBERTSON 'The Queen Amongst the Heather' More of the
Lomax recordings under the heading 'Portraits'. 18 tracks including interviews
with
little cross-over with the Topic/Ossian albumSLPYCD001 THE BOTHY BALLADS OF N.E. SCOTLAND VOL.1 Centering around
 What have become known as the 'Big Five' the singing in this area seems as
strong
as ever featuring Joe Aitken, Jock Duncan, Gordon Easton, Tam Reid and Eric
SimpsonSLPYCD006 THE BOTHY BALLADS OF N.E. SCOTLAND VOL. 2 more great
singing  featuring Joe Aitken, Jock Duncan, Gordon Easton, Tam Reid, Eric
Simpson, Frank McNally and Geordie Murson.OFFCD101 SHEILA STEWART 'as time goes on...' Mainly stories plus a couple
of songs from her travelling tradition.MTCD308 DAISY CHAPMAN 'Ythanside' A singer from Aberdeen with an
interesting repertoire.SBT001CD BORDERS FIDDLES 'Volume One - Borders traditions' Seven
traditional fiddle players showing the variety of fiddle music in the Borders.CDSDL407 SONGS OF THE TRAVELLING PEOPLE 'Music of tinkers,
gypsies and other travelling people of England, Scotland and
Ireland.' Janet Penfold, Davie Stewart, Margaret Barry,
Phoebe Smith, Duncan McPhee, Frank O'Connor, Angela Brasel,
Carolyne Hughes, Charlie Lyndsay, Cathie Stewart Belle Stewart,
Jimmy McBeath, Willie Kelby, Jeannie Robertson, Duncan McPhee
& Kathie Higgins. More recordings from Peter Kennedy's
Folktracks.CDSDL416 BAGPIPES OF BRITAIN & IRELAND A compilation of
Kennedy's archival recordings of bagpipers including from
England Jack Armstrong, from Scotland Alex Stewart and Pipe
Major William Ross and from Ireland The McPeake Family,
Felix Doran, Seamus Ennis and Willie ClancyTopic 'The Voice of the People'
The greatest set of CDs of English, Irish and Scottish singing and music ever
produced. Including: Sarah Makem, Geoff Ling, Mary
Anne Haynes, Tommy McGarth, Pop Maynard,
Willie Clancy, Jimmy McBeath, Paddy Tunney, Harry Cox, Rose
Murphy, Joe Heanny Belle Stewart, Phil Tanners, Eddie Butcher,
Turp Brown, Margaret Barry, Walter Pardon, Martin Gorman,
Joseph Taylor, Jimmy McBeath, Micho Russell, Jeannie
Robertson. Cyril Pocher, Tom Willet, Johnny Doughty, John Rae,
Sam Larner, Lizzie Higgins, Turp Brown, George Ling, Walter
Pardon, Frank Verrill, Harry Upton, Micho Russell, Bob
Hart, Bob Roberts, Willie Scott, Fred Jordon, Packie Manus,
Byrne, Liz Jefferies, Stanley Robertson, Geordie Hannah, John
McDonald, Ben Butcher, Freda Palmer, John Reilly, Phoebe Smith,
Enos White, Scan Tester, Eddie Butchers, Michael Coleman,
Sarah Anne O'Neill, Paddy Breen, Davie Stewart, Jinky Wells,
Tom Lennihan, Jimmy Nights, Bob Cann, Maggy Murphy, Bampton
Morris, Charlie Wills, Sheila Stewert, Jasper Smith, May
Bradley, Percy Brown, Oscar Woods, Stephen Baldwin, Walter
Bulwer, Font Whatling, Fred Whiting, Sarah Makem, Amy Birch,
Wiggie Smith, George Spicer etc. etc.TSCD651 COME LET US BUY THE LICENCE 'Songs of courtship &
marriage'TSCD652 MY SHIP SHALL SAIL THE OCEAN 'Songs of tempest &
sea battles, sailor lads & fishermen'TSCD653 O'ER HIS GRAVE THE GRASS GREW GREEN 'Tragic Ballads'TSCD654 FAREWELL, MY OWN NATIVE LAND 'Songs of exile &
emigration'TSCD655 COME ALL MY LADS THAT FOLLOW THE PLOUGH 'The life of
rural working men & women'TSCD656 TONIGHT I'LL MAKE YOU MY BRIDE 'Ballads of true &
false lovers'TSCD657 FIRST I'M GOING TO SING YOU A DITTY 'Rural fun &
frolics'TSCD658 A STORY I'M JUST ABOUT TO TELL 'Local events &
national issues'TSCD659 RIG-A-JIG-JIG 'Dance music of the south of England'TSCD660 WHO'S THAT AT MY BED WINDOW? 'Songs of love &
amorous encounters'TSCD661 MY FATHER'S THE KING OF THE GYPSIES 'Music of English
& Welsh travellers & gypsies'TSCD662 WE'VE RECEIVED ORDERS TO SAIL 'Jackie Tar at sea & on
shore'TSCD663 THEY ORDERED THEIR PINTS OF BEER AND BOTTLES OF SHERRY
'The joys & curse of drink'TSCD664 TROUBLES THEY ARE BUT FEW 'Dance tunes & ditties'TSCD665 AS ME AND MY LOVE SAT COURTING 'Songs of love,
courtship & marriage'TSCD666 YOU LAZY LOT OF BONE-SHAKERS 'Songs & dance tunes of
Seasonal events'TSCD667 IT FELL ON A DAY A BONNY SUMMER DAY 'Ballads'TSCD668 TO CATCH A FINE BUCK WAS MY DELIGHT 'Songs of hunting
& poaching'TSCD669 RANTING & REELING 'Dance music of the north of England'TSCD670 THERE IS A MAN UPON THE FARM 'Working men & women in
song'RDR 1775 CLASSIC BALLADS OF BRITAIN & IRELAND Vol. 1 Recordings
made by Peter Kennedy, Alan Lomax, Hamish Henderson, Sean
O'Boyle, Bob Copper and Seamus Ennis featuring just about
every well-known traditional singer from England, Ireland
and Scotland. The beginning of another classic series.And, lest I forget, there's the brilliant Tradition Bearers series. Traditional
Scottish
ballads and songs sung in a traditional style by fine singers. No
overarrangements.
No rock. No gimmicks. Just singing.
So far, the series consists of five CDs, one per artist. Bob Blair, Heather
Heywood,  Jimmy Hutchinson, Alison McMoreland,  and Maureen Jelkes.  Highly
recommended.

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Subject: CAMSCO listing
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 16:57:55 -0400
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Dick,I still have trouble with that word 'greatest', because I often
find myself in disagreement with popular or critical professional
judgement, and sometimes both. Let us make our own judgements.
I'd say drop that if you want to be Moses Asch's successor. [You
can find out a little about what he did and how he did it by
using google to search on 'Moses Asch Folkways'. There are only
about 325 listings to go through.]Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: CAMSCO listing
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 17:06:28 -0400
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Bruce, I agree. The blurbs came from the publishers, and I toned most of
them down. I personally have no problem with using great for singers such as
Jeannie Robertson and Joe Heaney whose careers have ended, through death or
whatever, and whose contributions can be evaluated in toto. And I find it
hard to quibble about the "greatest collection" accolade for the 20-CD
"Voice of the People" set.Generally, though, I feel tha the word "Great" should be avoided in a field
in which individual greatness is so rare. I'll try to do so in future lists.dickBruce Olson wrote:> Dick,
>
> I still have trouble with that word 'greatest', because I often
> find myself in disagreement with popular or critical professional
> judgement, and sometimes both. Let us make our own judgements.
> I'd say drop that if you want to be Moses Asch's successor. [You
> can find out a little about what he did and how he did it by
> using google to search on 'Moses Asch Folkways'. There are only
> about 325 listings to go through.]
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
> broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
> or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: new book
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 17:42:24 -0400
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Jack Campin wrote:
>
> Got this from another mailing list.  Looks like it ought to be of
> interest to people here?
>
> >Date sent:              Wed, 16 May 2001 12:47:25 +0100
> >From:                   Stephen Miller <[unmask]>
> >Subject:                Fwd: Gavin Greig 'The Subject of Folksong' : New Book
> >>12 Obituary Notice by the Rev. James B. Duncan (1915)By , not of. See below.A few supplemental references:Putting first published first, there is an article, 'The James
Duncan Manuscript Folk Song Collection', by Patrick Shuldham-Shaw
in FMJ, I, #1 (1966) preceeded by a short biography 'James Bruce
Duncan (1848-1917)' by his grandson, P. S. Duncan. There is also
a picture of the Rev. Duncan facing the title page in this same
issue of FMJ.In his headnote in vol. 1 of 'The Grieg-Duncan Folk Song
Collection' (in the book of same title, I, 1981), Shuldham-Shaw
sketches both Gavin Grieg and the Rev. Duncan, and points out
their occasional meetings and active correspondence, including
notes on surviving examples of such.Further notes on biography of the elder Duncan and younger Greig
are to be found in an article by Ian Olson, 'The Influence of the
Folk Song Society on the Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection:
Methodology', FMJ V, #2 (1986).Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: CAMSCO listing
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 17:50:58 -0400
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dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> Bruce, I agree. The blurbs came from the publishers, and I toned most of
> them down. I personally have no problem with using great for singers such as
> Jeannie Robertson and Joe Heaney whose careers have ended, through death or
> whatever, and whose contributions can be evaluated in toto. And I find it
> hard to quibble about the "greatest collection" accolade for the 20-CD
> "Voice of the People" set.
>
> Generally, though, I feel tha the word "Great" should be avoided in a field
> in which individual greatness is so rare. I'll try to do so in futureI was talking about the dominant PR 'great', not the truly great.
Joe Heaney I got to hear in person a few times, but never Jeannie, and
there are still a few of her songs that I don't have yet.Bruce Olson--
Old English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: CAMSCO listing
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 19:43:51 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote >"Dick... if you want to be Moses Asch's successor..."I hope Dick doesn't have it in mind to follow in those footsteps.  I had the
experience of meeting Mr. Asch on a couple of occasions in the early '70s
when accompanying Marget Barry to Folkways.  Margaret was in search of
royalties and she had me along in the capacity of bodyguard or advisor or
something.  Mr. Asch (Margaret always called him Mr. Asch - not Moe or
Moses) led an illustrious life but Dick's must be more pleasant.I have a few of those recordings and they are great...  Oooops!Dan Milner

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Subject: Re: new book
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 17:08:00 -0700
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Jack Campian is quite right: The Gavin Greig, _"The Subject of Folksong"_
(the quotemarks are in the title) is a valuable compendium of scarce,
hard-to-find, impossible-to-purchase writings by that stalwart of
collecting in the northeast of Scotland.  As edited and printed by Stephen
Miller (who is, I believe, a subscriber to this list), it brings together
eleven texts on Scots folksong and ballad by Greig, and an obit of Greig
written by his friend and correspondent, fellow collector the Rev. James
Duncan.Further, it seems to me that the price is quite fair.  I think I paid $25
(postage included) ordering it a month ago from Stephen's Chiollagh Books
on the Isle of Man.  I do not know how many items he has (re)published,
but I do know he has brought out a reprint of a reprint of Manx folksongs
from the English folk song journal of the early 1900s.I can well commend and heartily recommend the Greig title.Ed Cray

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Subject: Re: CAMSCO listing
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 16 May 2001 22:17:25 -0400
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No Dan-
Moe made 'em. I just peddle 'em.Dan Milner wrote:> Bruce Olson wrote >
>
> "Dick... if you want to be Moses Asch's successor..."
>
> I hope Dick doesn't have it in mind to follow in those footsteps.  I had the
> experience of meeting Mr. Asch on a couple of occasions in the early '70s
> when accompanying Marget Barry to Folkways.  Margaret was in search of
> royalties and she had me along in the capacity of bodyguard or advisor or
> something.  Mr. Asch (Margaret always called him Mr. Asch - not Moe or
> Moses) led an illustrious life but Dick's must be more pleasant.
>
> I have a few of those recordings and they are great...  Oooops!
>
> Dan Milner

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Subject: Re: CAMSCO listing
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 17 May 2001 12:36:37 -0400
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Dan Milner wrote:
>
> Bruce Olson wrote >
>
> "Dick... if you want to be Moses Asch's successor..."
>
> I hope Dick doesn't have it in mind to follow in those footsteps.  I had the
> experience of meeting Mr. Asch on a couple of occasions in the early '70s
> when accompanying Marget Barry to Folkways.  Margaret was in search of
> royalties and she had me along in the capacity of bodyguard or advisor or
> something.  Mr. Asch (Margaret always called him Mr. Asch - not Moe or
> Moses) led an illustrious life but Dick's must be more pleasant.
>
> I have a few of those recordings and they are great...  Oooops!
>
> Dan MilnerMy Irish Gaelic consultant (Dr. Pat O'Hare, now unfortunately for me,
back in Ireland), who translated that "Eileen Aroon", 1st in Scarce
songs 1 on my website, told he that he had been able to check out rare
old song and music books from NLI and Trinity College and keep them over
a weekend, and often heard Margaret Barry singing on the streets in
Dublin, and years later, on a return visit to Dublin, found on Irish TV
that she'd become famous. Did she give you a ride on her bicycle, Dan?I didn't hear her until the 1976 Smithsonian Bicentennial Folk
Festival, and I've only got 1 of her recordings, it's g---t. Tom
Munnelly (<LI><A HREF="http://homepage.eircom.net/~shields/fmsi/"> FMSI,
Dublin </a>) brought over a group of Irish singers and players,
and I got to talk with Micho Russell a bit (and I've heard some
of his songs there, like "Keech in the Creel"). Some of his songs
are on one of our list member's website at Harvard, and one of
his recordings is indexed in Steve Roud's folksong index. And use
google on 'Micho Russell' for another avalanche.With luck I'll eventually get my new scanner going. Already in it
and waiting is the 'candid' photo that A. L. Lloyd gratiously
posed for me at that festival, and I still hope to get it on my
website.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: CAMSCO listing
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 17 May 2001 13:21:15 -0400
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Bruce Olson wrote...> My Irish Gaelic consultant, Dr. Pat O'Hare... told he... often heard
Margaret Barry singing on the streets in
> Dublin.The streets are the natural habitat of the broadside ballad.  Margaret both
sang and sold broadsides.Margaret stayed with me on 2 occasions for between 4 and 6 months.  I
interviewed her on tape for about 3 hours.  The conversation was about her
life as an intinerant music maker.  I last heard the tape about 20 years
ago.  Mick Moloney had heard a report (false at that time) that Margaret had
died and we listened for what seemed like an entire afternoon.  It was quite
interesting.> Did she give you a ride on her bicycle, Dan?No, Bruce.  She did not but it has been said - though I have no way of
knowing nor real interest - that Michael Gorman did get up there.Dan Milner

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Subject: Websites
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 17 May 2001 10:36:12 -0700
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Good People:Forgive my naivete, but I wonder if anyone or any organization has mounted
a one-stop website that lists all the other websites devoted to folk
music.Weekly I seem to bump into another site -- often through the good offices
of Bruce Olson -- that opens up this library or that field collection or
this index.I wonder if a descriptive/critical index might not be a worthwhile project
for the ballad-l website that Marge Steiner is again working on.Or does such a beast exist?Ed

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 17 May 2001 14:17:29 -0400
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Ed Cray wrote:
>
> Good People:
>
> Forgive my naivete, but I wonder if anyone or any organization has mounted
> a one-stop website that lists all the other websites devoted to folk
> music.
>
> Weekly I seem to bump into another site -- often through the good offices
> of Bruce Olson -- that opens up this library or that field collection or
> this index.
>
> I wonder if a descriptive/critical index might not be a worthwhile project
> for the ballad-l website that Marge Steiner is again working on.
>
> Or does such a beast exist?
>
> EdI haven't found a rally good all purpose one, but Martin Nail's 'English
Folk Song and Music' on the internet is pretty good. Click on from my
external URLs.The websites of the academic institutions (EFDSS, SSS, FMSI, AFS, etc,
in my external URLs) are usually pretty picky about their external
links, so they only take you to high quality websites.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Thu, 17 May 2001 13:21:31 -0500
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I want to clarify here.  I know nothing about establishing websites, and the
friend who was going to help left town.  I hope that some time very soon,
I'll be able to corral another friend into helping.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Bruce Olson
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:17 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: WebsitesEd Cray wrote:
>
> Good People:
>
> Forgive my naivete, but I wonder if anyone or any organization has mounted
> a one-stop website that lists all the other websites devoted to folk
> music.
>
> Weekly I seem to bump into another site -- often through the good offices
> of Bruce Olson -- that opens up this library or that field collection or
> this index.
>
> I wonder if a descriptive/critical index might not be a worthwhile project
> for the ballad-l website that Marge Steiner is again working on.
>
> Or does such a beast exist?
>
> EdI haven't found a rally good all purpose one, but Martin Nail's 'English
Folk Song and Music' on the internet is pretty good. Click on from my
external URLs.The websites of the academic institutions (EFDSS, SSS, FMSI, AFS, etc,
in my external URLs) are usually pretty picky about their external
links, so they only take you to high quality websites.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 17 May 2001 14:35:24 -0400
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Ed Cray wrote:
>
> Good People:
>
> Forgive my naivete, but I wonder if anyone or any organization has mounted
> a one-stop website that lists all the other websites devoted to folk
> music.
>
> Weekly I seem to bump into another site -- often through the good offices
> of Bruce Olson -- that opens up this library or that field collection or
> this index.
>
> I wonder if a descriptive/critical index might not be a worthwhile project
> for the ballad-l website that Marge Steiner is again working on.
>
> Or does such a beast exist?
>
> EdI forgot to add- If you don't have someone critically looking at
contents of each URL you put in a listing, you'll just end up with an
enormous mess so big that you won't be able to find anything usefull in
a reasonable search time. A search on Google for 'folk music' turns up
87 pages. I didn't try folk -songs, dances, tales, myths, legends, and
the like, or any singers, collectors, musician's names.My sugestion 1: Put in the academic links, where external URLs have
already been evaluated for quality content, and if you have to have more
swipe those external URLs.My suggestion 2:- Make such available on the server and ask Ballad-L
list members for additions.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 17 May 2001 20:52:50 -0400
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Ed-
mudcat.org has a fairly extensive listing of folk-related links, along with
some description (usually skimpy)Ed Cray wrote:> Good People:
>
> Forgive my naivete, but I wonder if anyone or any organization has mounted
> a one-stop website that lists all the other websites devoted to folk
> music.
>
> Weekly I seem to bump into another site -- often through the good offices
> of Bruce Olson -- that opens up this library or that field collection or
> this index.
>
> I wonder if a descriptive/critical index might not be a worthwhile project
> for the ballad-l website that Marge Steiner is again working on.
>
> Or does such a beast exist?
>
> Ed

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 12:10:36 -0400
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dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> Ed-
> mudcat.org has a fairly extensive listing of folk-related links, along with
> some description (usually skimpy)
>
> Ed Cray wrote:
>
> > Good People:
> >
> > Forgive my naivete, but I wonder if anyone or any organization has mounted
> > a one-stop website that lists all the other websites devoted to folk
> > music.
> >
> > Weekly I seem to bump into another site -- often through the good offices
> > of Bruce Olson -- that opens up this library or that field collection or
> > this index.
> >
> > I wonder if a descriptive/critical index might not be a worthwhile project
> > for the ballad-l website that Marge Steiner is again working on.
> >
> > Or does such a beast exist?
> >
> > EdForget the internet. That's volatile storage and it my not be
there 1 minute from now, and 99.999% of 'folk songs' there aren't
straight traditional ones, anyhow.There's no substitute for data of the best possible quality, and
a good researcher has only that as top priority, and will resort
to whatever it takes to get it, (well, I shied away from murder,
but not much else). Even the time honored 'averaging' of lots of
pretty good data to try to improve accuracy falls apart when you
discover that the standard you're trying to measure against is
degrading during the time you're collecting the data.There's already a top quality set of data on English languge
traditional songs and closely allied commerical songs. It's
getting to the point that if a song isn't there, it's not
traditional.If you want to do something really worth while in the line of
bibliography of traditional songs ask Steve Roud how you can help
him on his folk song and broadside ballad indexes. That's a very big
job, and I'm amazed at how far he has gotten. And don't be too surprised
if he rejects you. He's got good high standards, and I doubt he'll
settle for less.There's still lots to be done, like getting the Lomax archives indexed,
so one can erase Lomax's published fakesongs.A few days ago someone on rec.music.folk announced a new
collection of Irish songs. One 'Irish' song was the American "Stewball",
rather than the original Irish 'Scew Ball".
I don't know if they were all stolen from elsewhere (and they've now
fixed it so the site now locks up my browser so I can't see anything) I
clicked on the URL and went down to the first song I thought I was
pretty familiar with, "Eileen Aroon". There were no notes to it, as to
where or from whom it came, but I quickly recognized it as the 2 verses
of a song by  Wm. Collins that I had copied from his 'New Vocal
Miscellany', 1787, where he gave the tune direction 'Aileen
Aroon'. I pointed this out, and got a private email to the effect
they still had some bugs to work out. Another correspondent
replied with a copy, that he didn't know that I made from 'Vocal
Music' 1770. (Nobody found the early version that Kitty Clive sang,
given in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website) That's still on my
website because that's the version that Pat O'Hare translated from
phonetic/dog Gaelic for me. The corespondent included only one line of
my notes, and of course eliminated any reference showing the source of
it, and didn't give the translation.I was surprised to see a purloined and quite obsolete copy of my
broadside ballad index on another website a few days ago. Lots of the
websites with folk songs on them are just songs taken from Dick
Greehaus' Digital Tradition. Why list all the folk song websites on the
internet? It's pointless for anyone interested in real traditional
songs, because there are really rather few, and it would take forever to
find them that way.Bruce Olson--
Old English, Irish, and Scots: popular and folk songs, tunes, and
broadside ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

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Subject: Katherine Pettit, Appalachian social worker (fwd)
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 13:59:20 -0700
Content-Type:TEXT/PLAIN
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Folks:This biography, from the American National Biography Online, was posted to
a history list to which I subscribe, with permission to repost.Though the biography hardly touches on that aspect of her career,
Ms. Pettit was an important, if quiet figure in the revival of interest in
American folk music.Ed---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:02:02 -0700
From: Robert W. Cherny <[unmask]>
Reply-To: H-Net Gilded Age and Progressive Era List <[unmask]>
To: [unmask]
Subject: Katherine Pettit, Appalachian social workerFrom:  ANB onlineThanks to Richard Jensen for forwarding this from ANB online:American National Biography OnlinePettit, Katherine Rhoda (23 Feb. 1868-3 Sept. 1936), educator and social
worker, was born in Fayette County, Kentucky, the daughter of Benjamin F.
Pettit, a farmer, and Clara Mason Barbee.  After her early education in
Lexington and Louisville, Pettit attended the Sayre Female Institute in
Lexington from 1885 to 1887. She became a member of the Presbyterian
church in her early years. A family friend, who was a clergyman, instilled
in her a lifelong interest in the hardships of people living in the
mountain regions of Kentucky. While in her twenties she joined the Woman's
Christian Temperance Union (WCTU), which was working with the highlanders
of Kentucky, and she became a member of the rural library service of the
State Federation of Women's Clubs. In 1895 she toured the mountain areas of Perry and Harlan and was struck
by their poverty and isolation. She spent the next three summers trying to
help the women of the area. In 1899 Pettit and a co-worker, May Stone,
went with a nurse and two assistants to set up a six-week summer school
near Hazard and Hindman, Kentucky, under the auspices of the State
Federation of Women's Clubs.  They borrowed a tent from the state militia
and attracted women with bright decorations and entertainment for
children. They trained the women in domestic affairs and gave them a sense
of dignity and community through games and songs. Pettit wanted to promote
the mountain culture and customs and encouraged people to undertake
traditional arts and crafts. She herself collected mountain ballads. In
1900 they held a similar ten-week summer school in Hindman, on Troublesome
Creek in Knott County, at the request of the residents. They expanded the
experience to fourteen weeks in 1901 at a summer school near Sassafras,
teaching people to read and write, holding Sunday school classes, planning
recreational activities, and lending books. Inspired by this interest and by the success of the urban settlement work
of Hull-House in Chicago, Pettit and Stone decided to experiment with
permanent rural settlement schools. Hindman citizens were so impressed
with these efforts that they donated three acres of land and began to find
contributions to build a school. Pettit and Stone traveled in the East to
raise funds for the project during the winter of 1901-1902, bought more
land, and opened the Hindman Settlement School in August 1902 under the
sponsorship of the WCTU. Although a series of fires led to setbacks in the
early years of the school, it began to flourish under the directorship of
these two women. After William Creech, a Harlan County mountaineer, begged Pettit to start
a similar school on 250 acres of land donated by him, Pettit went to the
county in 1913 to open the Pine Mountain Settlement School. Along with
Ethel de Long Zande, who had been a teacher at the Hindman School for two
years, and Creech, she spent eighteen months building the school from
scratch. Once the base school of thirty buildings was established, the
group expanded its activities in the area to provide health and dental
centers. They also lobbied for improvements to mountain roads and started
farming institutes.  In 1914 Pettit was one of thirty-five members of the
first Conference of Southern Mountain Workers. Later she was the first
woman to attend Farmers' Week at the University of Kentucky because she
wanted to apply scientific techniques to the farming methods of the
mountain people. Pettit retired from the codirectorship of the Pine Mountain Settlement
School in 1930. Free from her executive duties, she decided to have direct
contact with the mountain people, and for the next five years she
dedicated herself to encouraging depression-struck farmers in Harlan
County to improve their farming techniques and to sell handicrafts. Pettit's motto was, "If a thing ought to be done, it can be done." Her
goal was to teach the mountain people to be worthy members of their
communities and to add beauty and usefulness to their homes and lives.
Never a comfortable public speaker, she preferred to talk informally with
small groups of people.  Pettit herself led by example and was known to
clear paths and to fill mud holes in roads. She was described as having
"understanding ways and great good sense," along with "courage, vitality,
efficiency, initiative [and] independence of judgment" (Frances Jewell
McVey, "The Blossom Woman," Mountain Life and Work 10, no. 1 [Apr. 1934]).
Mountain women remembered her with affection and gratitude. The University of Kentucky awarded Pettit the Algernon Sidney Sullivan
Medal in 1932 for her "high thought and noble endeavor."  In 1932 she also
took a trip to South America, where she was determined to be a traveler
rather than a tourist. She wrote enthusiastically about the beauty and
friendliness that she found in the mountains despite setbacks and dangers
including a broken wrist and revolutions. During the last months of her life Pettit found the energy to be active
in a forest preservation project in Kentucky. Never married, she died of
cancer at the home of her sister in Lexington.  With her practical, firm,
and respectful approach to the local problems of poverty, Pettit found a
way to promote education and modernization while maintaining the
traditional, independent values of the people with whom she worked. She
introduced a model for compassionate rural social work in the early
twentieth century. Bibliography Pettit's diaries and correspondence and newspaper clippings and other
articles connected with the Hindman and Pine Mountain Settlement Schools
are available on microfilm in the Archives and Special Collections of
Berea College Library, Berea, Ky.  The University of Kentucky Library's
Special Collections also contain a few items about Pettit, including a
written account of her trip to South America. The ballads collected by
Pettit are in G. L. Kittredge, ed., "Ballads and Rhymes from Kentucky,"
Journal of American Folklore 20 (1907): 251-77. Lucy Furman based her
novel The Quare Women (1923) on Pettit. See also David E.  Whisnant, All
That Is Native and Fine: The Politics of Culture in an American Region
(1986), for further information about Pettit's life and work. Limited
information about the Hindman and Pine Mountain Settlement Schools is in
Ellen C. Semple, "A New Departure in Social Settlements," American Academy
of Political and Social Science Annals 15 (Mar. 1900): 301-4. See also
Robert A. Wood and Albert J. Kennedy, eds., Handbook of Settlements
(1911), and Henderson Daingerfield, "Social Settlement and Educational
Work in the Kentucky Mountains," Journal of American Social Science
Association, no. 39 (1901): 176-95. An obituary is in the New York Times,
5 Sept. 1936. Carol A. Lockwoodsuggested citation:
 Carol A. Lockwood. "Pettit, Katherine Rhoda";
http://www.anb.org/articles/15/15-00881.html
American National Biography Online May 2001Copyright Notice
Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of the
American National Biography of the Day provided
that the following statement is preserved on all copies:     From American National Biography, published by Oxford University
     Press, Inc., copyright 2000 American Council of Learned Societies.
     Further information is available at http://www.anb.org.

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Subject: Katherine Pettit
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 18:17:48 -0500
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I, too, would recommend the book, all That is Native and Fine, not only for
more details about pettit and the Settlement School work, but also for nice
essays on the work of Olive Dame Campbell and really nice work on The White
Top Folk Festival.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: "Roy G. Berkeley" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 20:43:19 -0400
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Dick-
I, for one, would not at all be offended by such an act of free
enterprise.  I'd very much like to know what's available these days.  In
fact, I'd be delighted if you were to transmit to me info on Document's
releases, so that I might fill in the gaps in my collection.
Just one man's opinion, of course...dick greenhaus wrote:> Several list members have asked me to post new CD releases from CAMSCO
> Music that may be of interest to the list members. Is this appropriate
> behaviour? or is it reasonable to ask interested parties to E-mail me
> directly to get the information?
>
> There's a whole bunch of great stuff available, especially from the UK.
> This availablityt is not  known to enough people, I feel. And I do like
> to sell CDs..

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: Clifford J Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 18 May 2001 19:56:35 -0500
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        Speaking of Document. Is it my imagination or has nothing been
forthcoming from them since March 2000, Country / Old-Time series or Blues?CliffAt 8:43 PM -0400 5/18/01, Roy G. Berkeley wrote:
>In fact, I'd be delighted if you were to transmit to me info on Document's
>releases, so that I might fill in the gaps in my collection.

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: scott utley <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 19 May 2001 03:23:22 -0400
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: Websites> Good People:
>
> Forgive my naivete, but I wonder if anyone or any organization has mounted
> a one-stop website that lists all the other websites devoted to folk
> music.
>
> Weekly I seem to bump into another site -- often through the good offices
> of Bruce Olson -- that opens up this library or that field collection or
> this index.> I wonder if a descriptive/critical index might not be a worthwhile project
> for the ballad-l website that Marge Steiner is again working on.> Or does such a beast exist?> EdA couple of good sites in upstate new york with some local flavor. Andy's
Front Hall is a great site for cd's and books
http://www.goldenlink.org/html/folklinks.html
http://www.andysfronthall.com/

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Subject: Re: A question of propriety
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 19 May 2001 20:17:24 -0400
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Hi-
There have been several releases during the past year. I'll have to look
them
up, but I know that they include a couple of new Skillet Licker CDs, two
Roy Harveys a Skip James and a Jimmy Yanceydick greenhausClifford J Ocheltree wrote:>         Speaking of Document. Is it my imagination or has nothing been
> forthcoming from them since March 2000, Country / Old-Time series or Blues?
>
> Cliff
>
> At 8:43 PM -0400 5/18/01, Roy G. Berkeley wrote:
> >In fact, I'd be delighted if you were to transmit to me info on Document's
> >releases, so that I might fill in the gaps in my collection.

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Subject: Frankie and Johnny
From: Lynne King <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 20 May 2001 19:59:42 -0700
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I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody sounded
familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?Lynne King

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 20 May 2001 20:44:50 -0700
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Lynne:Yes, Albert and Johnny are one and the same man/ballad.  However, Albert
tends to be a little more raunchy than Johnny.EdOn Sun, 20 May 2001, Lynne King wrote:> I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody sounded
> familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?
>
> Lynne King
>

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 01:05:18 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]><<Yes, Albert and Johnny are one and the same man/ballad.  However, Albert
tends to be a little more raunchy than Johnny.> I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody
sounded
> familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?>>Although...a local fellow, Rusty David, did his dissertation on "Frankie",
and reached the interesting conclusion that there may have been two
Frankies, one c. 1870, the other c. 1900, both of whom knew how to use a
pistol. He reached that conclusion because the Frankie-and-Albert murder is
pretty well dated to 1900, but there were traces of the ballad's having been
sung before that date, a patent impossibility unless the singer was gifted
with precognition. His theory is that there was a fatal encounter between
Frankie I and Albert sometime around 1870, and a ballad was made about it.
Then, around 1900, when Frankie II shot Johnny, singers adapted the original
Frankie and Albert ballad to the new circumstance.I'm not sure I buy it, but a lot stranger stuff has happened in the course
of ballad history. (Incidentally, the spot where the 1900 murder took place
is now a plaza behind the hockey arena. No plaque, alas.)Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 07:58:15 -0500
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On 5/21/01, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
>
><<Yes, Albert and Johnny are one and the same man/ballad.  However, Albert
>tends to be a little more raunchy than Johnny.
>
>> I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
>> titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
>> fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody
>sounded
>> familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?>>
>
>Although...a local fellow, Rusty David, did his dissertation on "Frankie",
>and reached the interesting conclusion that there may have been two
>Frankies, one c. 1870, the other c. 1900, both of whom knew how to use a
>pistol. He reached that conclusion because the Frankie-and-Albert murder is
>pretty well dated to 1900, but there were traces of the ballad's having been
>sung before that date, a patent impossibility unless the singer was gifted
>with precognition. His theory is that there was a fatal encounter between
>Frankie I and Albert sometime around 1870, and a ballad was made about it.
>Then, around 1900, when Frankie II shot Johnny, singers adapted the original
>Frankie and Albert ballad to the new circumstance.Actually, it probably *is* true -- the second Frankie is, I imagine,
Frankie Silvers, who has her own ballad. But she also contributed
a bit to the Frankie and Albert legend (and, yes, "Albert" seems to
be the older name. At least, more of the older versions are "Albert"
versions, while "Johnnie" is the name used by the younger crowd.
Kids these days. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 10:50:04 -0400
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>I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
>titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
>fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody sounded
>familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?
>
>Lynne KingYes.  Frankie Baker shot Allen "Al" Britt in St. Louis on Sunday,
October 15, 1899.  He died two days later.  The song was "Frankie and
Albert" until a popular arrangement by the Leighton Brothers and Ren
Shields was published in 1912.  Evidently they though "Albert" to be
too sedate and replaced "him" with "Johnny."  It is easy to see how
"Al Britt" quickly became "Albert."The theory that Frankie Silver is involved in this has no sound
basis.  She has her own dreadful ballad, which has been explored
recently by a number of people, including Beverly and Dan Patterson.
The theories that the Frankie and Albert/Johnny song was around as
early as the Civil War, or by the 1880s, or whatever, have no sound
basis either, all being based on isolated "recollections" of
individuals thinking back to a long time ago.Like most ballads of this nature, "Frankie" soon strayed wildly from
the facts of the case, if it ever adhered to them.  Al was shot
around 3 a.m. when he came home and found Frankie sleeping in the
wrong bed, his, I suppose.  She said she'd been sick and came in
where she could get more air.  He pulled his knife and started to cut
her, she said.  She ran her hand under her pillow, got a pistol, and
shot him once.  Hardly the barroom (or hop-house or wherever) scene
that is depicted in the song.Robert W. Gordon was hilariously prudish and ambivalent about the
vulgarities of many versions of "Frankie."  I'm looking through his
Adventure (magazine) correspondence right now.  He urged readers to
send him the raw stuff, no matter how vulgar, just as it was sung,
but he also said that he would keep it hidden away in his archives,
that he didn't want to be an agent for spreading such stuff.To my mind the best collected verse runs something like this (from
memory, may be imperfect):I didn't shoot him in the first degree,
I didn't shoot him in the last,
I didn't shoot in the second degree,
I shot him in his big brown ass.
        He was my man, but he done me wrong.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 08:44:20 -0700
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Paul:Could be.  But the versions of the ballad are pretty close textually --
which was my point.EdOn Mon, 21 May 2001, Paul Stamler wrote:> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
>
> <<Yes, Albert and Johnny are one and the same man/ballad.  However, Albert
> tends to be a little more raunchy than Johnny.
>
> > I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> > titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> > fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody
> sounded
> > familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?>>
>
> Although...a local fellow, Rusty David, did his dissertation on "Frankie",
> and reached the interesting conclusion that there may have been two
> Frankies, one c. 1870, the other c. 1900, both of whom knew how to use a
> pistol. He reached that conclusion because the Frankie-and-Albert murder is
> pretty well dated to 1900, but there were traces of the ballad's having been
> sung before that date, a patent impossibility unless the singer was gifted
> with precognition. His theory is that there was a fatal encounter between
> Frankie I and Albert sometime around 1870, and a ballad was made about it.
> Then, around 1900, when Frankie II shot Johnny, singers adapted the original
> Frankie and Albert ballad to the new circumstance.
>
> I'm not sure I buy it, but a lot stranger stuff has happened in the course
> of ballad history. (Incidentally, the spot where the 1900 murder took place
> is now a plaza behind the hockey arena. No plaque, alas.)
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 09:09:16 -0700
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John and Others Interested in the Criminal Mind:As I have it,"Frankie stood up in the courtroom.
`I'm not talkin' no sass.
I didn't shoot Johnny in the first degree.
I shot him in his beg black ass.
        He was my man.
        He was doin' me wrong."I kind of like the woman's defiance to the end.EdOn Mon, 21 May 2001, John Garst wrote:> >I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> >titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> >fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody sounded
> >familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?
> >
> >Lynne King
>
>
> Yes.  Frankie Baker shot Allen "Al" Britt in St. Louis on Sunday,
> October 15, 1899.  He died two days later.  The song was "Frankie and
> Albert" until a popular arrangement by the Leighton Brothers and Ren
> Shields was published in 1912.  Evidently they though "Albert" to be
> too sedate and replaced "him" with "Johnny."  It is easy to see how
> "Al Britt" quickly became "Albert."
>
> The theory that Frankie Silver is involved in this has no sound
> basis.  She has her own dreadful ballad, which has been explored
> recently by a number of people, including Beverly and Dan Patterson.
> The theories that the Frankie and Albert/Johnny song was around as
> early as the Civil War, or by the 1880s, or whatever, have no sound
> basis either, all being based on isolated "recollections" of
> individuals thinking back to a long time ago.
>
> Like most ballads of this nature, "Frankie" soon strayed wildly from
> the facts of the case, if it ever adhered to them.  Al was shot
> around 3 a.m. when he came home and found Frankie sleeping in the
> wrong bed, his, I suppose.  She said she'd been sick and came in
> where she could get more air.  He pulled his knife and started to cut
> her, she said.  She ran her hand under her pillow, got a pistol, and
> shot him once.  Hardly the barroom (or hop-house or wherever) scene
> that is depicted in the song.
>
> Robert W. Gordon was hilariously prudish and ambivalent about the
> vulgarities of many versions of "Frankie."  I'm looking through his
> Adventure (magazine) correspondence right now.  He urged readers to
> send him the raw stuff, no matter how vulgar, just as it was sung,
> but he also said that he would keep it hidden away in his archives,
> that he didn't want to be an agent for spreading such stuff.
>
> To my mind the best collected verse runs something like this (from
> memory, may be imperfect):
>
> I didn't shoot him in the first degree,
> I didn't shoot him in the last,
> I didn't shoot in the second degree,
> I shot him in his big brown ass.
>         He was my man, but he done me wrong.
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Lynne King <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 10:21:39 -0700
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oh that is wonderful.  Could you send me all the verses, please?  I couldn't
understand a word of the Ledbelly version I heard on the Internet, except
for"He was doin' me wrong," which I remember from the other less colourful
version.Lynnette----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny> John and Others Interested in the Criminal Mind:
>
> As I have it,
>
> "Frankie stood up in the courtroom.
> `I'm not talkin' no sass.
> I didn't shoot Johnny in the first degree.
> I shot him in his beg black ass.
>         He was my man.
>         He was doin' me wrong."
>
> I kind of like the woman's defiance to the end.
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Mon, 21 May 2001, John Garst wrote:
>
> > >I heard a version of this on the radio today by Leadbelly, but it was
> > >titled, "Frankie and Albert."  It was a very old recording with poor
> > >fidelity so I couldn't make out the words all that well.  The melody
sounded
> > >familiar, though.  Is it indeed the same song?
> > >
> > >Lynne King
> >
> >
> > Yes.  Frankie Baker shot Allen "Al" Britt in St. Louis on Sunday,
> > October 15, 1899.  He died two days later.  The song was "Frankie and
> > Albert" until a popular arrangement by the Leighton Brothers and Ren
> > Shields was published in 1912.  Evidently they though "Albert" to be
> > too sedate and replaced "him" with "Johnny."  It is easy to see how
> > "Al Britt" quickly became "Albert."
> >
> > The theory that Frankie Silver is involved in this has no sound
> > basis.  She has her own dreadful ballad, which has been explored
> > recently by a number of people, including Beverly and Dan Patterson.
> > The theories that the Frankie and Albert/Johnny song was around as
> > early as the Civil War, or by the 1880s, or whatever, have no sound
> > basis either, all being based on isolated "recollections" of
> > individuals thinking back to a long time ago.
> >
> > Like most ballads of this nature, "Frankie" soon strayed wildly from
> > the facts of the case, if it ever adhered to them.  Al was shot
> > around 3 a.m. when he came home and found Frankie sleeping in the
> > wrong bed, his, I suppose.  She said she'd been sick and came in
> > where she could get more air.  He pulled his knife and started to cut
> > her, she said.  She ran her hand under her pillow, got a pistol, and
> > shot him once.  Hardly the barroom (or hop-house or wherever) scene
> > that is depicted in the song.
> >
> > Robert W. Gordon was hilariously prudish and ambivalent about the
> > vulgarities of many versions of "Frankie."  I'm looking through his
> > Adventure (magazine) correspondence right now.  He urged readers to
> > send him the raw stuff, no matter how vulgar, just as it was sung,
> > but he also said that he would keep it hidden away in his archives,
> > that he didn't want to be an agent for spreading such stuff.
> >
> > To my mind the best collected verse runs something like this (from
> > memory, may be imperfect):
> >
> > I didn't shoot him in the first degree,
> > I didn't shoot him in the last,
> > I didn't shoot in the second degree,
> > I shot him in his big brown ass.
> >         He was my man, but he done me wrong.
> >
> >
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
> >

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 12:34:04 -0500
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<<oh that is wonderful.  Could you send me all the verses, please?  I
couldn't
understand a word of the Ledbelly version I heard on the Internet, except
for"He was doin' me wrong," which I remember from the other less colourful
version.>>Check out the Digital Tradition database at www.mudcat.org for lyrics. Not
sure they have the "first degree" verse, but worth looking.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 10:41:29 -0700
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John Garst and Ed Cray (and maybe others) referred to the stanza something
like:>
> I didn't shoot him in the first degree,
> I didn't shoot him in the last,
> I didn't shoot in the second degree,
> I shot him in his big brown ass.
>         He was my man, but he done me wrong.
>
I  know this stanza was (first?) printed in John Held's marvelously
illustrated "Saga of Frankie and Johnny" (1930), but does anyone know which
recorded versions include it?  I know there as at least one, but can't put
my hands on it now.
Norm Cohen

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 21 May 2001 14:27:28 -0400
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Some scattered, less-literary verses from the oral tradition of my mis-spent
youth:Frankie she worked in a crib-house
Crib-house had only one door;
Albert took all o' Frankie's  money
Spent it on a parlor whore.and:Rubber-tired buggy
Rubber-tired hack
Taking Albert to the graveyard
Brinkin' his pecker back
  Bes' part of the man
  Who done her wrong.

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Subject: Re: Frankie and Johnny
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 22 May 2001 14:00:23 -0400
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>John and Others Interested in the Criminal Mind:
>
>As I have it,
>
>"Frankie stood up in the courtroom.
>`I'm not talkin' no sass.
>I didn't shoot Johnny in the first degree.
>I shot him in his beg black ass.
>         He was my man.
>         He was doin' me wrong."
>
>I kind of like the woman's defiance to the end.Here are some verses, not necessarily from the same sources, from
Bruce Buckley's dissertation, Frankie and Her Men (Indiana U., 1962).
They all deal with the trial, Buckley's stage 21 of the story told by
the songs.  I've put the verses in an order that makes sense, sort
of, perhaps.  A verse that I recall but don't find in Buckley could
go at the spot indicated.Frankie went to the courthouse,
The big fat judge to see.
The judge he said to Frankie
"You shot him in the third degree."Frankie went on the witness stand
Her story for to tell;
To tell the judge and jury
How she sent her lovin' man to hell.Frankie said to the judge
"Well, let all such things pass,
If I didn't shoot him in the third degree
I shot him in his big brown ass."The judge he said to Frankie
"I'm sorry it came to pass,
For it really is murder in the first degree
Although you shot him in the ankle."[Verse in which Frankie wriggles and smiles for the judge, who calls
her "honey chile," or something like that.  If this is inserted here,
it accounts for the judge's change of mind.  I don't find this verse
in Buckley, but I recall it from somewhere.]Judge said to the jury,
"Jury, I cannot see,
Though Frankie has killed the man she loved,
Why she should not go free."The next morning in the courtroom
After the trail began
The judge handed Frankie the six gun
"Now, go kill yourself another man."In fact, Frankie's plea of self defense carried the day and she was
freed, although many versions tell of her conviction, hanging,
electrocution, etc.By the way, the real name of the "other woman," often given as Alice
Fry, Nellie Bly, or some such, was Alice Pryor.Buckley lists 410 verses of "Frankie," 256 of which are substantially
different, in his analysis.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 22 May 2001 17:05:28 -0400
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Check outhttp://www.lft.k12.la.us/chs/la_studies/ParishSeries/JeffersonDavisParish/Batson.htmandhttp://www.numachi.com/cgi-bin/rickheit/dtrad/lookup?ti=BATSON&tt=BATSONI've been going through the Robert W. Gordon mss at the Library of
Congress.  He was mighty interested in the "Batson" ballad and made
contacts who directed him to news accounts of the historical facts,
but as far as I can tell, he never got more than a couple of
fragments of the ballad.  Along comes John Lomax and he apparently
got a very long (38 stanzas) version from "Stavin' Chain" (Wilson
Jones) in Louisiana, 1934, that is, if the version published in Our
Singing Country is not a composite of several sources.As far as I know, and this is just memory stuff, not the result of
research, no one has come along and laid the historical facts beside
the song, discussed this, etc.  How about it?  Is my memory correct?
Is this just lying there waiting?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 23 May 2001 09:45:11 -0400
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G. Malcom Laws' entry for Batson is very strange.  Quoting Lomax,
Laws says that "Stavin' Chain" (Wilson Jones) told about the Lake
Charles, LA, murder, which is amply documented in Robert W. Gordon's
Adventure correspondence, yet Lomax is quoted as writing "Inquiry
fails to confirm Stavin' Chain's story..."  By this time, were Lomax
and Gordon not speaking to one another?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Batson
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 23 May 2001 09:46:42 -0700
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Deborah Kodish's biography of Robert Gordon, _Good Friends and Bad
Enemies,_ pp. 193-94, sugggests there was "bad blood" between John
A. Lomax and Gordon.  Furthermore, Gordon's papers were scattered in
various places, and the Batson letters may not have been in the Library of
Congress.EdOn Wed, 23 May 2001, John Garst wrote:> G. Malcom Laws' entry for Batson is very strange.  Quoting Lomax,
> Laws says that "Stavin' Chain" (Wilson Jones) told about the Lake
> Charles, LA, murder, which is amply documented in Robert W. Gordon's
> Adventure correspondence, yet Lomax is quoted as writing "Inquiry
> fails to confirm Stavin' Chain's story..."  By this time, were Lomax
> and Gordon not speaking to one another?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 23 May 2001 12:56:43 -0400
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>...Furthermore, Gordon's papers were scattered in
>various places, and the Batson letters may not have been in the Library of
>Congress.That's where they are - that's where I've seen them (via microfilm).
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Ella Speed
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 25 May 2001 15:24:53 -0400
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I've just discovered that the version of "Ella Speed" sung by Mance
Lipscomb on Yazoo DVD 502 is different from that on Arhoolie CD 306
(originally released on lp in 1960).  It is my impression that Mance
forgets some words in the last verse on the DVD and sticks in words
from another song ("one more road I'd like to ride").  To accomodate
this, he changes the tune, introducing an extra line or two.  For the
life of me, I can't figure out the last few lines of the last verse.
It sounds like Mance is at a loss for words and just goes "ala bal
moo," or some such, partly under his breath.Has anybody out there had better luck understanding this?Thanks,
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Linplum Windings
From: Nigel Gatherer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 26 May 2001 13:49:14 +0100
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Many years ago I was given a tape recording of an informal singing
party. Most of the songs were of the "Tiny Bubbles" variety, but one
fragment of a song stood out, "The Linplum Windings". I tried to track
down the singer, Dod Hay, and I got close enough to be told that he
would meet me, and that he could remember the remaining verses. However
he was unwell at the time (and rather aged), and he died before I could
speak to him.Dod Hay worked on East Lothian (near Edinburgh, Scotland) farms all his
life, and the song appears to be very much a local song. I spoke to
another East Lothian man who said his grandfather also sang the song as
a young man, but had forgotten most of it (the grandson also told me
he'd met a local lady who knew some of the characters in the song).All of this is a little frustrating, as it looks as though this
fragment may be all that is left of an interesting local song...............................................................
THE LINPLUM WINDINGS1. Come all ye fine fellows, I pray you give ear
I pray you look twice before ye leap once
For there's mony a chap has been caught in a snare
Wi' takin a loup before he was shair, laddie,
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.2. Aye, I'll warn ye all, the time's drawin nigh,
Dinna hire tae yon Red Raw they ca' Linkylee
For depend if ye do, yer sorrows will come
If ye hire tae auld Hall, the auld grieve o' Linplum, laddie,
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.3. Aye I ken o' a chap, an a gie Hielan chiel,
That wis yince sent tae feer that very same field,
An the big Johnnie, he bubbled and grat,
When his ploo widna work and his horse took the sprat, laddie,
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.4. That lad be cam hame wi' a tear in his ee
Said nae mair will ah feer that field o' Auld Lee
Of all the places that ever I've seen
The windings beat a' that ever I've seen, laddie
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.5. Well I think a' aboot plooin' I've said very weel
I'll tell ye noo somethin concerning our mill
If gaun tae thresh auld Puff gies a shout
Every yin tae their places and tak turn aboot, laddie,
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.6. Aye there's twa yokin cairts, the stack for tae drive
There's twa in the laft the sheaves tae untie
And if the orraman the sheaves disna get
He turns on the weemin like a bull in a fit, laddie
  Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
..............................................................Sung by Dod Hay. The farm of Linkylee, the homefarm of the Linplum
estate, lies between Gifford Morham and Garvald.
loup = leap
shair = sure
yince = once
feer = a ploughing term
grat = cried
sprat = unclear
windings = a ploughing term (the windings went out and the 'happens'
went in until the field was complete)--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Re: Linplum Windings
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 26 May 2001 13:14:14 -0700
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Nigel and Eavesdroppers:I confess that I cannot help you one whit with "Lindplum Windings," but I
can point out that it is of a piece with a number of other "protest" songs
by working stiffs: "Canaday-I-O," "Buffalo Skinners," some versions of
"The State of Arkansas," "Forty Cent Cotton," etc.Alan Lomax sought unsuccessfully to get more such songs into his
politically conservative father's anthologies such as _American Ballads
and Folk Songs._ Eventually he assembled a stack of these workers'
complaints gathered from field recordings and commercial records.  They
made their way into the book edited with Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger,
_Hard Hitting Songs for Hard-Hit People._EdOn Sat, 26 May 2001, Nigel Gatherer wrote:> Many years ago I was given a tape recording of an informal singing
> party. Most of the songs were of the "Tiny Bubbles" variety, but one
> fragment of a song stood out, "The Linplum Windings". I tried to track
> down the singer, Dod Hay, and I got close enough to be told that he
> would meet me, and that he could remember the remaining verses. However
> he was unwell at the time (and rather aged), and he died before I could
> speak to him.
>
> Dod Hay worked on East Lothian (near Edinburgh, Scotland) farms all his
> life, and the song appears to be very much a local song. I spoke to
> another East Lothian man who said his grandfather also sang the song as
> a young man, but had forgotten most of it (the grandson also told me
> he'd met a local lady who knew some of the characters in the song).
>
> All of this is a little frustrating, as it looks as though this
> fragment may be all that is left of an interesting local song.
>
> ..............................................................
> THE LINPLUM WINDINGS
>
> 1. Come all ye fine fellows, I pray you give ear
> I pray you look twice before ye leap once
> For there's mony a chap has been caught in a snare
> Wi' takin a loup before he was shair, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 2. Aye, I'll warn ye all, the time's drawin nigh,
> Dinna hire tae yon Red Raw they ca' Linkylee
> For depend if ye do, yer sorrows will come
> If ye hire tae auld Hall, the auld grieve o' Linplum, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 3. Aye I ken o' a chap, an a gie Hielan chiel,
> That wis yince sent tae feer that very same field,
> An the big Johnnie, he bubbled and grat,
> When his ploo widna work and his horse took the sprat, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 4. That lad be cam hame wi' a tear in his ee
> Said nae mair will ah feer that field o' Auld Lee
> Of all the places that ever I've seen
> The windings beat a' that ever I've seen, laddie
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 5. Well I think a' aboot plooin' I've said very weel
> I'll tell ye noo somethin concerning our mill
> If gaun tae thresh auld Puff gies a shout
> Every yin tae their places and tak turn aboot, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 6. Aye there's twa yokin cairts, the stack for tae drive
> There's twa in the laft the sheaves tae untie
> And if the orraman the sheaves disna get
> He turns on the weemin like a bull in a fit, laddie
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
> ..............................................................
>
> Sung by Dod Hay. The farm of Linkylee, the homefarm of the Linplum
> estate, lies between Gifford Morham and Garvald.
> loup = leap
> shair = sure
> yince = once
> feer = a ploughing term
> grat = cried
> sprat = unclear
> windings = a ploughing term (the windings went out and the 'happens'
> went in until the field was complete)
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> [unmask]
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/
>

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Subject: Re: Websites
From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
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Date:Sun, 27 May 2001 16:05:23 -0400
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I started this project after discovering that:
a. Search engines were worthless in this regard;
b. Most 'folk' sites aren't worth visiting;
c. It can take a long time to find the good ones.However, it soon became clear that:
a. references were of little value without good descriptions;
b. web sites are volatile, so links need to be regularly rechecked and
descriptions updated;
c. most sites are privately maintained, and individuals have a limit to
the amount of time and/or money they can invest in them;
d. since the number and nature of sites referenced quickly gets large,
any such effort would need a comprehensive and useable indexing and
cross-indexing system.I concluded it needs to be an institutional web site, and that
particularly good referenced sites should be copied and archived (with
the authors' permission) so that the material collected wouldn't be lost
when the creator burned out.  It would need a peer review group for
quality and a notes system so interested parties could attach comments
and corrections.  It should link into bibliographies and collection
search systems - i.e., if you're going to do this, you should be able to
go into the sites to relevant information, which implies standardized
access systems...A worthwhile project, but it ain't gonna happen.  So meanwhile, I have a
small set which I hope to review this summer and put up on the FSSGB
(Folk Song Society of Greater Boston) site.-Don

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Subject: [Fwd: Re: "With My Love on the Road"]
From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
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Date:Sun, 27 May 2001 16:05:31 -0400
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Can anybody help on this?  I asked Brian O'Donovan here, and he drew a blank.-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: "With My Love on the Road"
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:49:49 -0700
From: Dianne Dugaw <[unmask]>
To: [unmask]>Dear All--
>>Here is a song query that I can't answer, but maybe some of you can?????
>
>>>Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:30:58 -0700
>>>From: Terry McQuilkin <[unmask]>
>
>>>
>>>I am suddenly reminded that you might have a lead for a question that I've
>>>not found an answer for, considering your knowledge of songs and ballads.
>>>Ever heard the song "With My Love on the Road"? It is found in the Joyce
>>>collection of Irish songs and airs, but I can't find the words
anywhere? Do
>>>you perhaps know this song, or know who would be an expert on this?
>>>Thanks, Terry
>
>

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Subject: Re: Linplum Windings
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 27 May 2001 22:41:07 -0400
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Hi-
You might try posting this reuest to The Mudcat Forum at www.mudcat.orgThere are a lt of knowledgable correspondents who hang out there.dck greenhausNigel Gatherer wrote:> Many years ago I was given a tape recording of an informal singing
> party. Most of the songs were of the "Tiny Bubbles" variety, but one
> fragment of a song stood out, "The Linplum Windings". I tried to track
> down the singer, Dod Hay, and I got close enough to be told that he
> would meet me, and that he could remember the remaining verses. However
> he was unwell at the time (and rather aged), and he died before I could
> speak to him.
>
> Dod Hay worked on East Lothian (near Edinburgh, Scotland) farms all his
> life, and the song appears to be very much a local song. I spoke to
> another East Lothian man who said his grandfather also sang the song as
> a young man, but had forgotten most of it (the grandson also told me
> he'd met a local lady who knew some of the characters in the song).
>
> All of this is a little frustrating, as it looks as though this
> fragment may be all that is left of an interesting local song.
>
> ..............................................................
> THE LINPLUM WINDINGS
>
> 1. Come all ye fine fellows, I pray you give ear
> I pray you look twice before ye leap once
> For there's mony a chap has been caught in a snare
> Wi' takin a loup before he was shair, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 2. Aye, I'll warn ye all, the time's drawin nigh,
> Dinna hire tae yon Red Raw they ca' Linkylee
> For depend if ye do, yer sorrows will come
> If ye hire tae auld Hall, the auld grieve o' Linplum, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 3. Aye I ken o' a chap, an a gie Hielan chiel,
> That wis yince sent tae feer that very same field,
> An the big Johnnie, he bubbled and grat,
> When his ploo widna work and his horse took the sprat, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 4. That lad be cam hame wi' a tear in his ee
> Said nae mair will ah feer that field o' Auld Lee
> Of all the places that ever I've seen
> The windings beat a' that ever I've seen, laddie
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 5. Well I think a' aboot plooin' I've said very weel
> I'll tell ye noo somethin concerning our mill
> If gaun tae thresh auld Puff gies a shout
> Every yin tae their places and tak turn aboot, laddie,
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
>
> 6. Aye there's twa yokin cairts, the stack for tae drive
> There's twa in the laft the sheaves tae untie
> And if the orraman the sheaves disna get
> He turns on the weemin like a bull in a fit, laddie
>   Singing fol de lol lay, laddie, fol lol lay.
> ..............................................................
>
> Sung by Dod Hay. The farm of Linkylee, the homefarm of the Linplum
> estate, lies between Gifford Morham and Garvald.
> loup = leap
> shair = sure
> yince = once
> feer = a ploughing term
> grat = cried
> sprat = unclear
> windings = a ploughing term (the windings went out and the 'happens'
> went in until the field was complete)
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
> [unmask]
> http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Re: Linplum Windings
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 29 May 2001 01:19:18 +0100
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> All of this is a little frustrating, as it looks as though this
> fragment may be all that is left of an interesting local song.Have you tried the School of Scottish Studies sound archive?  I can't
offhand think of anybody who's done much field recording in East
Lothian, but I'd guess they'll know of anything that exists.There may still be source singers alive who know it.  Feeing survived
in East Lothian until after WW2; I think this was longer than anywhere
else in Scotland.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

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Subject: A Review and Replies
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 30 May 2001 14:16:32 -0700
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> Mary Ellen Brown, _William Motherwell's Cultural Politics_
> (Lexington: University of Kentucky Press, 2001):  A Commentary and
> Exchange by Ed Cray and Mary Ellen Brown
>
> Members of Ballad-l are invited to reply, rejoin, take issue or take
> sides.>
> In the late 18th and early years of the 19th C., with the rise of
> Romanticism, there arose in Europe a companion philosophy of nationalism.
> If the founding father was Johann Herder, the moving forces were Jacob and
> Wilhelm Grimm (born 1785, 1786) whose _Kinder und Haus Marchen_ may fairly
> be described as the first folklore texts.  (While recent scholarship has
> demonstrated that the Grimm brothers apparently conflated texts, it does
> not negate the impact the work had.)  Inspired by that work, dozens of
> men, and some women, in Germany, Scandanavia, Denmark, France and the
> British Isles began consciously collecting the traditional lore that lay
> all about them.
>
> Among them was one William Motherwell, born in 1797 to a Glasgow
> ironmonger, sent at the age of 14 to live with an uncle in Paisley, and
> there given something of a classical education in local schools.  His
> literary interests came early; by age 20 he was secretary of the Paisley
> [Robert] Burns Club, and a member of the Literary Institution.  A poet of
> modest attainments, Motherwell began collecting (and polishing)
> "traditionary" ballads; these he would publish in fascicles as
> _Minstrelsy: Ancient and Modern_ in 1827, before taking over the post of
> editor of the _Paisley Magazine._
>
> Motherwell then lived just as the Industrial Revolution was to swallow the
> older agrarian society -- at least in the fetid cities of Great
> Britain.  A conservative, he yearned for the old, the familiar order.  His
> ballad collecting, his reviews of other ballad collections, all were
> celebrations of a Scots "race" of old, a people of literary/cultural
> standing, a NATION.
>
> Francis James Child was to rely heavily on the Motherwell collection
> in editing the two-volume _English and Scottish Ballads_ (1857-59) for the
> British Poets series.  Child reprinted no fewer than 37 of Motherwell's 71
> texts, according to Mary Ellen Brown ("Mr. Child's Scottish mentor:
> William Motherwell," in Cheesman and Rieuwerts, _Ballads into Books, _ p.
> 31.)
>
> It is probably a bit too much to assert that Motherwell served as Child's
> mentor.  If anyone deserves that role, it was Svend Grundtvig, editor of
> the _Danmarks gamble Folkeviser._ Nonetheless, Motherwell's collection was
> a crutch upon which Child would lean.
>
> To his dismay.  Or frustration.  As Brown points out in _Motherwell's
> Cultural Politics,_Motherwell "fixed" or "improved" the ballads he first
> collected in and around Paisley in the mid-1820s.  Then, seemingly
> following the advice of a regretful Walter Scott who had done the same
> thing, Motherwell had a change of heart.  He would no longer polish the
> traditionary ballads he collected so as to show the Scots "race" in its
> best garb.  Rather, he would preserve each ballad as an artifact, or
> (religious) relic.
>
> Brown's chapter placing Motherwell in this socio-political context (pp. 78
> ff.) is vital, a useful expansion of Sigurd Hustvedt's _Ballad Books and
> Ballad Men_ -- still the best history of the 19th C. ballad revival.
>
> Motherwell, of course, was a man of his times: rather snobbish, perhaps
> something of a social climber.  In his view, the muckle ballads were
> written by minstrels (i.e., trained professionals), handed on to
> "retainers" (Brown's word) who might have rewritten the material to please
> the taste of the "lower ranks," people he argued whose "stubborn
> sensibilities could only be excited by narratives of real incident,
> suffering or adventure, distinctly, plainly, and artlessly told."
> (A half century later, P.W. Joyce was to make the same arguments in
> explaining Irish/Celtic myths.  His _Old Celtic Romances: Tales from Irish
> Mythology_ has just been reprinted by Dover.)
>
> It is Motherwell, a class-conscious, conservative, proud Scotsman, whom
> Brown has sought to portray in her book.  He is not always a sympathetic
> character.  But he is human.
>
> Less successful, or less compelling is Brown's attempt to explain just
> why Motherwell edited the first fascicles of his _Minstrelsy_ to
> "improve" the ballads.  Or why the change of heart.
>
> Brown suggests that Motherwell "began his study as a person interested in
> literature, national literature -- the older and more antique the
> better.  What he learned in the process of the textual exercise he and his
> friends had begun... was that at best the ballads are sung.  So after the
> work proper was concluded he made sure that a section titled `Musick'
> corrected the view of ballads as poetry...."  (pp. 97-98)
>
> Still, her explanation of Motherwell's change of heart, that is, his shift
> from tampering with texts to preserving the oral tradition, seems a let
> down.  Attributing it to the "playfulness" of Motherwell's circle, to his
> sense of literary quality rather than historical versimilitude merely
> reframes the argument between the literary and anthropological that has
> riven folklore studies as long as there have been folklore studies.
> Motherwell, says Brown, merely switched camps.
>
>                                               -- Ed Cray
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks, Ed.
>
> On quick read, I suppose what I intended to suggest is that
> collecting, meeting folks, seeing multiformity in front of him,
> understanding oral tradition's operation made him change from the
> literary/editing approach that was the norm.  Implicitly, reality was his
> teacher.  Before he'd been taught by prettied up materials.
>
> I'm not sure I'd even put the ballad editing he did in the
> forgery/playfulness category.
>
> Do we make a mistake to redraw the past in terms of present, continuing
> issues--such as literary and anthropological which weren't a part of his
> world?
>
> It wasn't so much that Motherwell changed camps, but that he learned--as I
> read it.
>
>                                               -- Mary Ellen Brown
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> What I seem to be missing is why M. shifted his position.  What in
> reality, to use your term, led him to see the light?
>
> I would agree we should not "redraw the past in terms of the
> present."  That is nothing more than ethnocentrism.  However, it seems to
> me that these early scholars were quite aware of history v. literary
> concerns.  (You make this very point quite well on p. 126, I would say.)
>
> Assuming for the moment that "history" (fact) is a cognate of
> anthropology, I would suggest that our ballad forebearers were engaged in
> the same struggles our contemporaries have battled.
>
> May I invite you to frame a criticism of my position.
>
>                                               -- Ed Cray
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> First of all, let me thank you for engaging with Motherwell.  There
> were times in the process of studying him that I wondered about my sanity,
> expending so much time on this guy.  But I learned so
> incredibly much--after many false starts and confusions, especially about
> his class location, etc.
>
> Some random remarks beginning with paragraph 1 of your first posting:
> clearly there was much in the air about going to the people and the German
> influence may be implicit.  But Scotland's interest in her "culture," oral
> or written derived largely from her history--the recent amalgamation with
> England, only now beginning to be disintangled, and that not without
> problems.  There was an interest on the part of some folks in evidences of
> SCOTLAND writ large.  The poems of Burns, the documents produced by
> MacPherson, as well as ballads and folksongs were some of those evidences
> along with THE language--lots of interest/focus on the language (something
> that continues today.)  So Scotland' history really contributed to the
  interest.
>
> Motherwell's interest in the past, the old, was, of course involved with
> their Scottishness in part.  But  more importantly, he saw them as having
> come from a better time, a more organic world, an imagined homogeneous
> paradise!  Yes Scottish, but also utopian.
>
> Child not only used Motherwell lavishly in his l857 edition, but claimed
> Motherwell's ballad manuscript made possible/necessitated even a new
> edition, our l882-l898 "canon" or whatever.  I do think of Motherwell as a
> kind of mentor because his introduction to the Minstrelsy (written after
> the work was completed--more anon) actually introduces a paradigm shift:
> he said that all versions are equal!  That so struck Grundtvig when he
> himself was doing an edition of English ballads and came across it that it
> became for him the guiding structure for his own work and which he clearly
> emphasized for Child in his direct communications with Child.
> (Incidentally, Child was enormously indebted to LOTS of folks, Scots,
> Brits or all sorts, and Europeans for help:  in fact he was largely editor
> in chief and there were many sub-editors who deserve recognition, chief
> among them a Scot William MacMath without whom Child could NOT have
> completed his work--but others too.).
>
> I don't really think Motherwell sought to preserve each version of a
> ballad as a religious relic, but as coming from different voices and thus
> representing something he hadn't realized, multiformity of oral tradition,
> something he called a reliable preservor.  Religion had nothing to do with
> it.
>
> He began his work on the Minstrelsy with a bunch of guys.  They published
> in bits and pieces.  They began thinking they'd include old and new
> stuff--including their own work (there are several Motherwell pieces in
> the early parts).  Then their interest must have waned or business
> involvement called:  it was left to Motherwell to complete.  He was
> anxious, not sure he knew enough.  What they'd been doing was what
> everyone else was doing--editing, conflating, touching up, making to fit
> their own aesthetic.  So he began a self-study program, writing letters to
> persons who had been involved in similar work; he looked at everything he
> could get his hands on; and he went to collect.  The latter took him to
> the living ballad:  there he saw/heard.  He realized that editing and
> conflating was not true to the reality of the living ballad.  He also
> observed oral formulaic composition (really key).  His shift was a learned
> one:  his fieldwork experience opened his eyes.  Perhaps in this sense his
> shift from the library to the field was crucial.  I don't find this a
> letdown at all:  I find it amazing, exhilerating, and exciting.  I think
> his work really marks the beginnning of serious scholarship.  That we
> haven't recognized its full contribution rests largely in our ahistorical
> or limited historical researches and our own concerns, more with texts
> than with discursive descriptions (many of them, like the minstrel
> origins, are, of course, highly suspect).
>
> I also think that Motherwell was operating at a time when there was an
> unsettled notion of the literary, of how it was or was not true.  So I'm
> not sure the kind of distinction we draw between history and literary
> holds.  They were grappling with the idea of truth.
>
> Well, you've undoubtedly gotten more from me than you'd anticipated.  As
> you can tell, I really love this stuff and appreciate interacting with
> others who share some of my enthusiasm--if coming from different
> perspectives.
>
>                                       -- Mary Ellen Brown
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: A Review and Replies
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Wed, 30 May 2001 22:25:44 -0400
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Ed Cray wrote:
>
> > Mary Ellen Brown, _William Motherwell's Cultural Politics_
> > (Lexington: University of Kentucky Press, 2001):  A Commentary and
> > Exchange by Ed Cray and Mary Ellen Brown
> >
> > Members of Ballad-l are invited to reply, rejoin, take issue or take
> > sides.
>
> >It's not possible for many to comment intelligently on
Motherwell's ballad work, because appreciation of it seems to be
limited to praise by those few who have seen his manuscripts,
which, so far, haven't been considered worthy of any published
edition.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles: popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>My Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 31 May 2001 11:13:32 -0400
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Batson is an "official" native American ballad, Laws I 10.  As far as
I know, it has been collected, in anything resembling complete form,
only once, in Lafayette, LA, in 1934, by Lomax, from "Stavin' Chain"
(Wilson Jones).  Jones said it was based on a crime that happened
near Lake Charles, LA, but Lomax's inquiries failed to confirm the
story.Nearly ten years earlier, Gordon had received three verses from two
informants and had briefly looked into the factual history,
sufficient to establish that the ballad is based on a crime committed
near Lake Charles, LA, in 1902 and the subsequent conviction and
execution, by hanging, of Albert "Ed" Batson, age 22, a hired hand on
the farm of one of the victims, Ward Earll.  Batson was from
Spickard, Grundy County, MO.Compare a couple of opening stanzas:(Lamkin)
Bo Lamkin was as fine a mason
As ever laid a stone,
He built a fine castle,
But pay he got none.(Batson)
Batson been working for Mr. Earle
Six long years today,
And ever since he been working for Mr. Earle,
He never got a pay.
    Cryin', "Oh, Mamma,
    I didn't done the crime."A book written about the crime in 1903 argued that Batson's
conviction on purely circumstantial evidence was probably wrong and
that other leads should have been investigated.  The book also states
that there was high prejudice against Batson and that local citizens
who swore that they could be fair jurors also made statements
indicating that they were convinced of his guilt.  A motion for a
change of venue was denied in the face of substantial indications
that Batson could not get a fair trial in the venue of the crime.I have now made contact with relatives of Ed Batson.  They know about
his case, and they believe him to have been innocent.  They tell of a
statement clearing Ed, made many years after the murder and trial by
a "colored man" who had been afraid to come forward at the time.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Scots tunes
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:07:05 -0400
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Supplementary to bibliography in the Scots tunes files on my website:Further information on 16th and 17th century
MS and printed sources can be found on web at:
www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/julia/glossary/Abbrev.htm#manuscripts
Wighton Collection-Dundee:
www.dundecity.gov.uk/centlib/wighton/airs.htm -
Library of Congress has excellent copy of Alex Stuart's
'Musick for Allan Ramsay's [TTM], beautifully engraved by
Cooper, but full of errors. Wighton couldn't aquire
copy, so transcribed it, correcting the errors- in his
collection, Dundee.Buy microfilms of most 16th and 17th century Scots music
collections in a series at www.adam-matthew-
publications.com/collect/p104.htm. Individual Panmure MSS
available on microfilm from NLS.Jack Campin, now on Ballad-L list, can probably tell us more
about what's at Dundee-Wighton colln, and elsewhere in Scotland,
especially 18th century and early 19th century ones. Stenhouse's,
Blaike's [traditional tunes- all noted for Motherwell?], C. K. Sharpe's,
and Lady John Scots'.Wighton colln has partial transcript of 'Blaike MS of 1692'.
Wm. Chappell said it was 'Lady Katharine Boyd's Bass Viol MS'.
Location of his transcript (112 tunes) now unknown to me.
Does anyone know where it is?Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles: popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>My Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Randolph's Ozark Folksongs
From: Dean Clamons <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:08:52 -0400
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Can someone advise me whether there is any reason (other than collector value)
for preferring the 1st edition Randolph Ozark Folksongs to the 1980 edition?Thanks,Dean Clamons
Code 7420
Naval Research Lab
Washington, DC 20375
202-767-2732

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Subject: Re: Randolph's Ozark Folksongs
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:32:04 -0500
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On 6/4/01, Dean Clamons wrote:>Can someone advise me whether there is any reason (other than collector value)
>for preferring the 1st edition Randolph Ozark Folksongs to the 1980 edition?There is indeed a reason to prefer the first edition: It's complete.
A handful of songs were omitted from the second edition for copyright
reasons, and (to the best of my knowledge) absolutely nothing was
added except a note saying that some songs were cut. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Robin Hood
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:29:07 -0400
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Bibliography updateListings of the 17th century Robin Hood ballads in Stephen Knight's
'Robin Hood: The Forresters Manuscript', 1998, have been added into the
Robin Hood section of the broadside ballad index on my website.Some are pretty much straight from printed copies, although 2 of these
are considerably earlier than any known printed copy, some are quite
variant, and 2 were prevously unknown.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles: popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
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Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:22:54 -0400
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Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
ballad that his father sings.  It opensOne dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
And throw your leg over me, dearI don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
wants background information, etc.How about it?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:36:25 -0500
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On 6/9/01, John Garst wrote:>Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
>singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
>ballad that his father sings.  It opens
>
>One dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
>To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
>And throw your leg over me, dear
>
>I don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
>that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
>and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
>wants background information, etc.Tsk. You didn't check the Ballad Index.Bibliographic references are:Randolph-Legman I, pp. 33-39, "Creeping and Crawling" (7 texts, 2 tunes)
Kennedy 178, "The Knife in the Window" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, CRPCRAWL KNIFWINDThere will be good material in both Randolph-Legman and Kennedy.It's also been recorded by A. L. Lloyd.Because it's strongly bawdy, there are no early printings. But
the Sharp MS shows it to have been known in Somerset and
Oxfordshire in 1906/1907. Likelihood is that it's much older.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: British elections
From: Andy Rouse <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:28:38 +0200
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Sorry, folks. Message to David went general on automatic reply.Andy

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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
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Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 18:11:50 EDT
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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:21:35 -0700
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On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 10:22:54AM -0400, John Garst wrote:
> Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
> singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
> ballad that his father sings.  It opens
>
> One dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
> To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
> And throw your leg over me, dear
>
> I don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
> that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
> and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
> wants background information, etc.
>
> How about it?        It's been being sung in concert, and probably recorded, by Cordelia's Dad, an
eclectic band from Boston.  One of their 'roots' is electric rock (which interests
me not), but another is traditional American vocal.  Will take me a bit of time
to look up the source of this one, possibly the Frank & Anne Warner collection.
        The band has been around for a while (?4 or ?5 CDs' worth), and also do pretty
respectable Sacred Harp ensemble singing, as well as acoustic instrumentals.  They've
been joined recently by West Coast fiddler Laura Risk.
        Meseems this very topic was discussed -- as 'Knife in the Window'? a couple of
eons ago on this very list.  Are there Archives?  where? -- aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: Mary Stafford <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:55:34 -0000
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My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance Randolph collection of risqué material.I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge, where they sang this song.Mary Stafford

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:50:33 -0500
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On 6/11/01, Mary Stafford wrote:>My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance Randolph collection of risqué material.
>
>I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge, where they sang this song.That "unpublished" collection, for the most part, is unpublished no
more. That's the "Randolph-Legman" I referred to: The bawdy material in
Randolph. So anyone who can find that can find all those pieces
Randolph previously wasn't allowed to publish.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:54:50 -0400
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Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
"original" back to a 1669 publication.>My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
>conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
>Randolph collection of risqué material.
>
>I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
>we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
>where they sang this song.
>
>Mary Stafford--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:26:54 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> "original" back to a 1669 publication.
>
> >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> >
> >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> >where they sang this song.
> >
> >Mary Stafford
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.Check what Legman says.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:09:55 -0400
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>John Garst wrote:
>>
>>  Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
>>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
>>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
>>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.
>>
>>  >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
>>  >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
>>  >Randolph collection of risqué material.
>>  >
>>  >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
>>  >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
>>  >where they sang this song.
>>  >
>>  >Mary Stafford
>>
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]
>
>
>I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
>'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
>follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
>knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
>her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
>Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
>reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
>book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
>got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
>
>Check what Legman says.
>
>Bruce OlsonI'm not at home, now, so I can't check again this moment, but I think
that I quoted him accurately.  I'll look this evening to see if he
acknowledged Bruce.There seem to be a couple points in favor of "A Maid, I dare," for
which Legman provided the title "The Snoring Maid," as an "original"
of "Creeping and Crawling."  (1) Some informants evidently used the
title "The Snoring Maid" (Legman did, at least, for their versions; I
assume that he used the informants' titles).  (2) Some versions have
lines like, "She smiled and said ...."  In "A Maid, I dare" the lines
read, "She snored and said...."  This looks like a verbal borrowing
to me.  I don't recall whether or not any of the Ozark versions
include "She snored and said....," but the use of "The Snoring Maid"
as the title suggests that they probably do.On the other side, "A maid, I dare...." contains different incidents
from the texts I've now seen of "Creeping and Crawling."  In
particular, as Bruce points out, there is no knife, which features so
prominently in some versions that it gives the title, "The Knife in
the Window."  Further, there is no lighning and thunder, as in
"Creeping and Crawling."  Again, in "A Maid, I dare" the man has
trouble getting in, stumbles over a cradle and trundle (or some
such), and when he finally starts coitus he has it first "just a
little too high," then "just a little too low," then "O there, O
there, O there, O there."  None of those events are in "Creeping and
Crawling."It looks to me like a typical case where both sides could be right.
"A Maid, I dare" is a plausible "original," but perhaps not the only
"original" contributing to "Creeping and Crawling," or perhaps the
latter is the result of one or more recompositions of "A Maid, I
dare."--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:25:21 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >>
> >>  Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> >>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> >>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> >>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.
> >>
> >>  >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> >>  >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> >>  >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> >>  >
> >>  >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> >>  >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> >>  >where they sang this song.
> >>  >
> >>  >Mary Stafford
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  john garst    [unmask]
> >
> >
> >I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
> >'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
> >follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
> >knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
> >her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
> >Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
> >reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
> >book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
> >got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
> >
> >Check what Legman says.
> >
> >Bruce Olson
>
> I'm not at home, now, so I can't check again this moment, but I think
> that I quoted him accurately.  I'll look this evening to see if he
> acknowledged Bruce.
>
> There seem to be a couple points in favor of "A Maid, I dare," for
> which Legman provided the title "The Snoring Maid," as an "original"
> of "Creeping and Crawling."  (1) Some informants evidently used the
> title "The Snoring Maid" (Legman did, at least, for their versions; I
> assume that he used the informants' titles).  (2) Some versions have
> lines like, "She smiled and said ...."  In "A Maid, I dare" the lines
> read, "She snored and said...."  This looks like a verbal borrowing
> to me.  I don't recall whether or not any of the Ozark versions
> include "She snored and said....," but the use of "The Snoring Maid"
> as the title suggests that they probably do.
>
> On the other side, "A maid, I dare...." contains different incidents
> from the texts I've now seen of "Creeping and Crawling."  In
> particular, as Bruce points out, there is no knife, which features so
> prominently in some versions that it gives the title, "The Knife in
> the Window."  Further, there is no lighning and thunder, as in
> "Creeping and Crawling."  Again, in "A Maid, I dare" the man has
> trouble getting in, stumbles over a cradle and trundle (or some
> such), and when he finally starts coitus he has it first "just a
> little too high," then "just a little too low," then "O there, O
> there, O there, O there."  None of those events are in "Creeping and
> Crawling."
>
> It looks to me like a typical case where both sides could be right.
> "A Maid, I dare" is a plausible "original," but perhaps not the only
> "original" contributing to "Creeping and Crawling," or perhaps the
> latter is the result of one or more recompositions of "A Maid, I
> dare."
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]As Legman notes, there is no title for "A Maid, I dare not tell her
name" in 'The New Academy of Complements', 1669, and I can't see that
the 'Snoring Maid' title appeared before it's use for #1B in
Legman/Randolph, 1992."To high, to low" is a lost song and tune, the tune being cited for a
bawdy ballad of 1663- c 1666 (ZN2537 in my broadside ballad index, text
in Common Muse, #155, and on Bodleian Ballads website), but isn't for
the same meter as "A Maid, I dare not tell her name"Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Martin Hugill
From: tom hall <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:41:46 -0500
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For all those who missed Mystic and cannot make the trek to Kennebunk...Final U.S. Appearance This Tour!
Direct from Songs of Sail 2001 and  The Mystic Sea Music FestivalMARTIN HUGILL
Renowned British Singer of Folk and Sea Songs
Son of the Legendary Shantyman Stan HugillAlso Featuring
BOB WEBB , "King of the Shanty" and TOM HALL, Press Room Patriarch1:30 p.m. -- Sunday, June 17, 2001
Upstairs at The Press Room
77 Daniel Street, Portsmouth, NH
Tickets $5.00 at the door
First Come, First Seated! -- Doors Open at 1:00 P.M.Martin Hugill was brought up with shanties and sea
songs from an early age, being the youngest son of the
late Stan Hugill, last of the shantymen.He has sung with some legendary performers in the
United Kingdom, induding Tony Davis's "Shipmates," and
with the Celtic music band "Sam." He often performs
with his brother Phil Hugill, and has earned acclaim
at festivals in Poland, Germany, France and the United
States.Martin usually accompanies himself on cittern guitar
or on mandolin. He has recently begun to add the sea
songs of Wales, his native country, to his repertoire.
When not singing songs of the sea, he performs in a
ceilidh band around the borders of England and Wales.His father, Stan Hugill, was one of the most important
collectors of the working songs of deepwater mariners
under sail. He was the last man to sing a working
shanty aboard a British square-rigged merchant ship,
in 1929. His principal work, "Shanties from the Seven
Seas," was published in 1961. It has become the "bible"
of modern shanty singers around the world.Martin Hugill currently lives in Shropshire, England.

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:32:06 -0700
Content-Type:TEXT/PLAIN
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Folks:Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.EdOn Mon, 11 Jun 2001, W. B. OLSON wrote:> John Garst wrote:
> >
> > Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> > Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> > material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> > "original" back to a 1669 publication.
> >
> > >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> > >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> > >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> > >
> > >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> > >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> > >where they sang this song.
> > >
> > >Mary Stafford
> >
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
>
>
> I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
> 'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
> follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
> knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
> her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
> Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
> reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
> book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
> got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
>
> Check what Legman says.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.
>

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:01:34 -0500
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On 6/11/01, Ed Cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.Legman certainly overreached, and I'm willing to disallow the
1669 claim (note that the Ballad Index doesn't buy it). But
"A-Creeping" is certainly the same song as "The Knife in the
Window." "Knife," what's more, is British; see Kennedy (#178).
Now Kennedy overreaches, too, and I've stopped trusting his
bibliography. Still, we have a song attested in the Ozarks early
in the twentieth century, and in England in the mid-twentieth
century. Says to me that the song is pretty old, and English.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:39:37 -0400
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Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> On 6/11/01, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> >Folks:
> >
> >Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.
>
> Legman certainly overreached, and I'm willing to disallow the
> 1669 claim (note that the Ballad Index doesn't buy it). But
> "A-Creeping" is certainly the same song as "The Knife in the
> Window." "Knife," what's more, is British; see Kennedy (#178).
> Now Kennedy overreaches, too, and I've stopped trusting his
> bibliography. Still, we have a song attested in the Ozarks early
> in the twentieth century, and in England in the mid-twentieth
> century. Says to me that the song is pretty old, and English.
>
> --'pretty old' is not a number that I can understand.Legman notes that a version of "A Maid, I dare not tell her name"
(which is also in the 1671 edition of 'The New Academy of
Complements') appeared in Maidment's 'Ane Pleasant Garland', c
1835 (thanks to Murray Shoolbraid for a xerox copy of the complete
book), and was reprinted in Farmer's 'Merry Songs', I, p. 279-80
(last song in vol). The title Maidment gave the song was "The
Nameless Maiden". Maidment's source (as for most in his book) was
NLS MS Adv. 19.1.3, where the song appears without title on fol. 40
(as seen on microfilm).John and Edward Phillips were educated by their uncle, secretary of
the long parliment, and sometime poet, John Milton. John's poetry
was limited to pieces for drolleries and broadside ballads, most
of which were poetically excellant. One of his broadside ballads is
"The Merchant and the Fiddler's Wife", probably first published by
Richard Burton. Burton entered no ballads in the Stationers'
Register, but the ballad here was transfered, with others
originally published by Burton, to F. Coles, et. al. in July 1678.The ballad being too long for a drollery, a few verses were given,
and the rest summarized in prose in 'Oxford Drollery', 5th ed.
1685. The ballad has long been familiar from a reprint with it's
tune (B391 on my website) in all editions of 'Pills to Purge
Melancholy', and I've heard it sung several times. Ed McCurdy also
recorded a version.Randolph collected three very fragmentary versions in the Ozarks,
and these are given as "The Fidler's Bitch" in Legman/Randolph,
#101, with some of the story given in prose. Legman took the piece
to be a cante fable (of whose origin he knew nothing) and wandered
off into mostly irrelevant comments and ending up at the irrelevant
"Maids when you're young never wed an old man".Legman's 'The Hornbook', 1964, was named after a work of 1899 (tp
facsimile, p. 49). Legman discusses the work at length but really
gets nowhere on who was responsible for the English version. Legman
also discusses John Steven Farmer, and notes that he couldn't trace
Farmer's whereabouts at the end of the 19th century. On p. 26 Legman
had dismissed 'Suburban Souls' as probably a work of fiction. It
wasn't. It's primarily Jacky/ John S.... [Farmer's] autobiography
coverting the period May 1895 to Jan. 1900, from his main base in
Paris. Farmer notes that he had completed the corrections to 'The
Horn Book' for the Rotterdam bookseller Vanderpunk by Dec. 1898, and
had worked on other books of erotica (titles given) for
publication.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Creeping Legman
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:33:21 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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I wrote:>  ...Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.Bruce wrote:>  I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is
>  really the 'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling...>  Check what Legman says.I have now checked Legman.  He wrote:"The true original of all these strains (except 'Locks and Bolts') is
'The Snoring Maid,' in The New Academy of Complements (London, 1669)
pp. 181-2, Song 166, without title, in six double stanzas...."I presume that "all these strains" refers to those mentioned in the
paragraph just above the quotation, "Pretty Polly" (Randolph/Legman),
"Tardy Wooer," "Snoring Maid" (Randolph/Legman, Mr. C. I.), "Creepin'
an' a-Crawlin'."Some points for and against Legman's "original" have been given here
previously.  I now noted that all of Randolph's versions, except one,
include the lines "She snored an' replied..." and the one exception
has "She snorted and cried..."  Further "The Snoring Maid" was Mr. C.
I.'s title, which he heard "back in 1889," so Legman did not
originate it."Creeping and Crawling" looks like a recomposition of "A Maid, I
dare" and in that sense, the latter could be an "original."  What
they share is a two-part formula.  (1) The man meets an obstacle, the
woman provides a solution.  (2) She gives the solution in the line
"She snored (snorted, smiled, etc.) and said...."  These elements are
shared by "C&C" and "Maid."  The obstacles are not.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:44:38 -0400
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I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
(Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."Be that as it may, I have a more general question.Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
his/her own "goodnight"?It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
hacks for timely selling as broadsides.Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
penalty.Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:54:54 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
> (Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
> jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
> experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
> The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."
>
> Be that as it may, I have a more general question.
>
> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?
>
> It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
> hacks for timely selling as broadsides.
>
> Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
> his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
> penalty.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
website.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:00:19 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
> (Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
> jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
> experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
> The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."
>
> Be that as it may, I have a more general question.
>
> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?
>
> It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
> hacks for timely selling as broadsides.
>
> Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
> his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
> penalty.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
Murderer."Bruce Olson
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Creeping Legman
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:28:03 -0400
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I note that Legman, 'The Hornbook', p.  368, 1964, said that the
manuscript from which Maidment extracted the songs for 'Ane
Pleasant Garland' could no longer be found in the Advocates
Library, now part of NLS. He couldn't have looked very hard.Incidently, the microfilm copy of the manuscript in which I ran
across the songs in 'Ane Pleasant Garland', NLS MS Adv. 19.1.13,
came from Harvester Microfilm, now Primary Source Microfilm
(which has a website).Also, Legman's wild imagination found some connection of "A Creeping and
a crawling) with a version of "Locks and Bolts do Hinder". The latter is
well known, and has a long history, and descends from a broadside ballad
of September, 1631, (and was doubtlessly reworked older material closely
related to Earl Brand/ Childe of Elle/ Masterpiece of Love Songs/ Bold
Soldier/ Seaman's Renown) listed with Laws and Roud numbers (M13 and
#406) at ZN3202 in the broadside ballad index on my website. I can see
no connection at all between it and "A creeping and a crawling".Bruce Olson--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:37:30 -0400
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At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:>John Garst wrote:
>...
>  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
>  > his/her own "goodnight"?
>...>Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
>website.and>Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
>"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
>Murderer."What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:05:03 -0400
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Well, in more recent years, Bonnie Parker (of Bonnie and Clyde fame) wrote a
Ballad of Bonnie and Clyde. And on a personal experience note, I was down in
Kentucky with Margo Mayo when she was collecting "Farewell to Sweet Beaver",
reportedly composed by one Mart Hayes shortly before his colorful execution
(he refused to work on the road gang, so he was placed in a well with a pump
and told to pump or drown--he refused to work). Turns out that it was a
localised re-write of "Prisoner for Life". Does that count?John Garst wrote:> At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >...
> >  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> >  > his/her own "goodnight"?
> >...
>
> >Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
> >website.
>
> and
>
> >Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
> >"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
> >Murderer."
>
> What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:59:42 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >...
> >  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> >  > his/her own "goodnight"?
> >...
>
> >Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
> >website.
>
> and
>
> >Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
> >"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
> >Murderer."
>
> What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]On Tichborne's 'Elegie': Morfils' note in 'Ballads from
Manuscripts', II, xxiii, 1873, reads:Many MSS. exist of this interesting and undoubtably genuine
composition, ....To the best of my knowledge the handwriting in these manuscripts
has not been compared to that in the letter which Tichborne wrote
to his wife that same night, which he signed 'Chideock
Tichebourne'.Mackpherson remained defiant until the end and it seems to me
this is more realistic than the pious, repentant verses that
ballad writers put in the mouth of the condemned."Et tu Brutus" seems to me to ring true, though  not very
inspired.Two of four accounts of the execution of a condemned criminal c
30-35 CE report his last words were "My God, my God, why hast
thou forsaken me". This seems to me to be totally out of
character for the man the four accounts portray, and I take it to
be pure fiction.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:30:09 -0400
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>Well, in more recent years, Bonnie Parker (of Bonnie and Clyde fame) wrote a
>Ballad of Bonnie and Clyde. And on a personal experience note, I was down in
>Kentucky with Margo Mayo when she was collecting "Farewell to Sweet Beaver",
>reportedly composed by one Mart Hayes shortly before his colorful execution
>(he refused to work on the road gang, so he was placed in a well with a pump
>and told to pump or drown--he refused to work). Turns out that it was a
>localised re-write of "Prisoner for Life". Does that count?Ugh!  Was he insane or retarded?Sounds like the Hayes ballad simply fits the usual pattern of "said
to" have been written by the dying person.  Perhaps there's better
documentation for Bonnie and Clyde?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Martin Hugill
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:18:06 -0400
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Sorry, Tom... family weekend this time around.  Thanks for the fun on 6/1All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: tom hall <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 7:41 PM
Subject: Martin Hugill> For all those who missed Mystic and cannot make the trek to Kennebunk...
>
>
> Final U.S. Appearance This Tour!
> Direct from Songs of Sail 2001 and  The Mystic Sea Music Festival
>
> MARTIN HUGILL
> Renowned British Singer of Folk and Sea Songs
> Son of the Legendary Shantyman Stan Hugill
>
> Also Featuring
> BOB WEBB , "King of the Shanty" and TOM HALL, Press Room Patriarch
>
> 1:30 p.m. -- Sunday, June 17, 2001
> Upstairs at The Press Room
> 77 Daniel Street, Portsmouth, NH
> Tickets $5.00 at the door
> First Come, First Seated! -- Doors Open at 1:00 P.M.
>
> Martin Hugill was brought up with shanties and sea
> songs from an early age, being the youngest son of the
> late Stan Hugill, last of the shantymen.
>
> He has sung with some legendary performers in the
> United Kingdom, induding Tony Davis's "Shipmates," and
> with the Celtic music band "Sam." He often performs
> with his brother Phil Hugill, and has earned acclaim
> at festivals in Poland, Germany, France and the United
> States.
>
> Martin usually accompanies himself on cittern guitar
> or on mandolin. He has recently begun to add the sea
> songs of Wales, his native country, to his repertoire.
> When not singing songs of the sea, he performs in a
> ceilidh band around the borders of England and Wales.
>
> His father, Stan Hugill, was one of the most important
> collectors of the working songs of deepwater mariners
> under sail. He was the last man to sing a working
> shanty aboard a British square-rigged merchant ship,
> in 1929. His principal work, "Shanties from the Seven
> Seas," was published in 1961. It has become the "bible"
> of modern shanty singers around the world.
>
> Martin Hugill currently lives in Shropshire, England.

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:31:07 -0400
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A new book about Louisiana justice, treating the case of Albert Edwin
Batson (Laws I 10), is hoped to be published within the year,
according to the author.  Batson was hanged, perhaps unjustly, for
the 1902 murders, by shotgun and knife, of L. S. Earll, his wife, and
four of their children, two of whom were school children, in a rural
area near Welsh, LA, which is near Lake Charles.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:35:34 +0100
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?Jose Rizal, the hero of Philippine nationalism:http://www.univie.ac.at/Voelkerkunde/apsis/aufi/jorizal.htmI had the notion in my head that Pir Sultan Abdal did as well, but
if so I can't find it in a quick scan of his collected poems.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:12:02 +0100
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?One I forgot about in my last message, which suggests that the genre may
be older: Francois Villon's final epigram, which is quite similar in its
attitude to Macpherson's Farewell.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

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Subject: Batson versions?
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:17:19 -0400
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I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
(Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
(no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
of this murder ballad?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Batson versions?
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:53:43 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
> (Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
> copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
> I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
> (no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
> of this murder ballad?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]G. M. Laws, Jr, 'Native American Balladry', I 10, lists only Lomax's
version and parts of two fragments collected by R. W. Gordon.Bruce Olson--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Batson versions?
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:08:15 -0700
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No, John, I think that's it.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 8:17 AM
Subject: Batson versions?> I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
> (Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
> copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
> I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
> (no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
> of this murder ballad?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Sandy Ives <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:55:55 -0400
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Looking at this thing through the other end of the telescope, there need
be no question that Joe Scott wrote BENJAMIN DEANE  (Laws  F32), yet I was
often assured that Deane had written it himself from prison.  Most of
those doing the assuring were people who knew about the ballad, but even a
couple of men who sang  good versions of it made that claim. Of course, a
good half the versions I collected were from people who had no idea who
wrote it--and cared less.  So it goes.
Sandy Ives

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: [unmask]
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Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:01:15 EDT
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John Garst wrote:
>...
>   Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
>  his/her own "goodnight"?
****************************
It's not authenticated at all, but Appalachian tradition has it that a bad
man named Callahan made up  a fiddle tune while waiting on the gallows.  The
story says that Callahan was stood on the seat of a wagon with the noose
around his neck, and asked for his fiddle.  He played a complex tune, then
offered the fiddle to any bystander who could play it.  When no one took him
up on his offer, he said "Hell!  This world ain't worth living in anyway!"
and broke his fiddle over the rump of the mule hitched to the wagon, causing
the mule to move forward and leaving Callahan hanging by the neck.  The tune
is well known, and many fiddlers are able to play it well.  It's usually
called  "The Last of Callahan."  The story may be simply an embellishment of
"MacPherson's Farewell."

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Barry O'Neill <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:46:35 -0700
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I wasn't there at the time to verify it, but I'd nominate Joe Hill's Will
as a goodnight song.  It was supposed to have been passed to a prison guard
before his execution.Barry O'Neill

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:11:44 -0700
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And as long as we are on the subject of American martyrs, there is Nicolo
Sacco's letter --EdOn Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Barry O'Neill wrote:> I wasn't there at the time to verify it, but I'd nominate Joe Hill's Will
> as a goodnight song.  It was supposed to have been passed to a prison guard
> before his execution.
>
> Barry O'Neill
>

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Subject: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:17:44 -0400
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My apologies because this is not a ballad but a lyric song that turns up
with relatively little variation in many, many Irish and Irish-American
songbooks of the 19th century, early to late I believe.  Surprisingly, I can
think of hardly anyone singing it today.Does anyone have a keen idea of the age and/or origin of The Boys of
Kilkenny.  Thanks in advance.All the best,
Dan Milner

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:12:09 -0400
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Dan Milner wrote:
>
> My apologies because this is not a ballad but a lyric song that turns up
> with relatively little variation in many, many Irish and Irish-American
> songbooks of the 19th century, early to late I believe.  Surprisingly, I can
> think of hardly anyone singing it today.
>
> Does anyone have a keen idea of the age and/or origin of The Boys of
> Kilkenny.  Thanks in advance.
>
> All the best,
> Dan MilnerSong and tune from what has been taken to be the original publication is
in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website, as are other earlier, closely
related songs.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 06:17:18 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:10:34 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> Dan Milner asks about this and Bruce refers him to his very useful
> scarce
> songs web-site. This allies The Boys of Kilkenny with all sort of
> songs
> including Bonnie Portmore. While there is no doubt that some of the
> songs
> given are closely associated, there are still some missing links and
> I'm not
> sure that this group of songs is fully integrated.
> .
> John MouldenSome additional information on related songs is in a thread "Origins of
Bonny Portmore" on the Mudcat Forum (do forum search), where John
pointed out "The Strands of Magilligan" as another related song.Traditional versions of "Bonny Udney" are in the Greig-Duncan Folk Song
Collection, VI, #1089.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:15:27 -0400
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Thank you, gentlemen.  Do you happen to know where Michael Kelly's print
shop was?  For the hell of it, I wonder whether it was in... Kilkenny.All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: W. B. OLSON <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny> [unmask] wrote:
> >
> > Dan Milner asks about this and Bruce refers him to his very useful
> > scarce
> > songs web-site. This allies The Boys of Kilkenny with all sort of
> > songs
> > including Bonnie Portmore. While there is no doubt that some of the
> > songs
> > given are closely associated, there are still some missing links and
> > I'm not
> > sure that this group of songs is fully integrated.
> > .
> > John Moulden
>
> Some additional information on related songs is in a thread "Origins of
> Bonny Portmore" on the Mudcat Forum (do forum search), where John
> pointed out "The Strands of Magilligan" as another related song.
>
> Traditional versions of "Bonny Udney" are in the Greig-Duncan Folk Song
> Collection, VI, #1089.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: [unmask]
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:31:01 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:45:53 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/19/2001 2:11:55 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      Thank you, gentlemen.  Do you happen to know where Michael
>      Kelly's print
>      shop was?  For the hell of it, I wonder whether it was in...
>      Kilkenny.
>
> Rober Munter: A Dictionary of the Print Trade in Ireland 1550-1775 New
> York
> (Forham University Press) 1988 which combines and augments the earlier
>
> dictionaries and articles by Dix, O Casaide, Crosslé and many others
> has no
> entry for a Michael Kelly or for any Kelly printing or associated with
>
> printing in Ireland except an Ignatius and a Mrs. The latter was
> Ignatius'
> widow and the printed in Mary Lane, Dublin.
>
> This is merely negative information. However, as you know, I'm
> investigating
> this area and hope that much of use will emerge.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> john MouldenRoger Fiske, 'English Theatre Music in the 18th Century', 2nd ep. p. 630
say Kelly's wine and print shop were in Pall Mall (London). My
recollection is that they were near a theatre that he managed- See Kelly
in New Grove's Dictionary.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:57:34 -0400
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There are 4 copies of "The Boys of Kilkenny" listed on the Levy
collection website, but not Michael Kelly's issue. There are also
several songs there, the tunes of which were 'composed' by Kelly.
Kelly never learned to read music, so he hummed the tunes for his
songs and opera scores, and someone else noted them down.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Fwd: G. Legman
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:57:27 -0600
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This request appeared on PUBLORE this morning, and since Legman was
recently discussed on BALLAD-L, I thought some of you might have
material to share.  Please respond directly to Susan Davis
([unmask])Cheers
JamiePerhaps this is not the public folklorists' preserve, but for a short
article on Gerhson Legman, I'd love to receive reminiscences, horror
stories, citations, leads, and of course, folklore.thanks sincerelySusan Davis

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Subject: Re: Fwd: G. Legman
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:29:40 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> This request appeared on PUBLORE this morning, and since Legman was
> recently discussed on BALLAD-L, I thought some of you might have
> material to share.  Please respond directly to Susan Davis
> ([unmask])
>
> Cheers
> Jamie
>
> Perhaps this is not the public folklorists' preserve, but for a short
> article on Gerhson Legman, I'd love to receive reminiscences, horror
> stories, citations, leads, and of course, folklore.
>
> thanks sincerely
>
> Susan DavisI disposed of my correspondance with Legman several years ago. I never
met him. Perhaps Murray Shoolbraid has saved some of his.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:03:54 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> Anent Michael Kelly of whom Bruce Olsen stated quoting Roger Fiske
> that Kelly
> never learned to read music.
>
> There is grave doubt over the accuracy of this comment:
> WT Parke: Musical Memoirs (London, 1830) says that Kelly had little
> knowledge
> of harmony and had admitted to him in 1803 that he "Merely wrote the
> melodies
> and that the old Italian Mazzanti, did the rest" He also quotes a
> story told
> by Samuel Arnold that Kelly had come to him, after having written
> several
> operas, and enquired how long it would take to learn thorough-bass.
> David Baptie: A handbook of musical biography (London, 1883) decribed
> him as
> "far from being a profound harmonist" but "possessed the gift of
> melody to a
> great degree"
>
> Among other matters I understand that Mozart for whom he sang in the
> first
> performance of Il Nozze di Figaro, encouraged his composition.
>
> Clearly song airs were well within his ability - and to write them
> himself -
> and these needed no harmony.
>
> John MouldenI cannot now remember where I picked up the informtion that Kelly
hummed the tunes and someone else noted them down.New Grove's Dictionary, 1980 merely quotes Thomas Moore (1801)
as saying: "Poor Mick is rather an imposer than composer. He cannot
make the time in writing three bars of music: his understrappers,
however, do all this for him."Bruce OLSON
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:56:43 -0400
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Thank you for your helpful comments.  One more question please.  WT Parke -
did he operate in England or Ireland?  That information might indicate -
though not prove - where Kelly's print shop was.All the best,
Dan----- Original Message -----
From: W. B. OLSON <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny> [unmask] wrote:
> >
> > Anent Michael Kelly of whom Bruce Olsen stated quoting Roger Fiske
> > that Kelly
> > never learned to read music.
> >
> > There is grave doubt over the accuracy of this comment:
> > WT Parke: Musical Memoirs (London, 1830) says that Kelly had little
> > knowledge
> > of harmony and had admitted to him in 1803 that he "Merely wrote the
> > melodies
> > and that the old Italian Mazzanti, did the rest" He also quotes a
> > story told
> > by Samuel Arnold that Kelly had come to him, after having written
> > several
> > operas, and enquired how long it would take to learn thorough-bass.
> > David Baptie: A handbook of musical biography (London, 1883) decribed
> > him as
> > "far from being a profound harmonist" but "possessed the gift of
> > melody to a
> > great degree"
> >
> > Among other matters I understand that Mozart for whom he sang in the
> > first
> > performance of Il Nozze di Figaro, encouraged his composition.
> >
> > Clearly song airs were well within his ability - and to write them
> > himself -
> > and these needed no harmony.
> >
> > John Moulden
>
>
> I cannot now remember where I picked up the informtion that Kelly
> hummed the tunes and someone else noted them down.
>
> New Grove's Dictionary, 1980 merely quotes Thomas Moore (1801)
> as saying: "Poor Mick is rather an imposer than composer. He cannot
> make the time in writing three bars of music: his understrappers,
> however, do all this for him."
>
> Bruce OLSON
> --
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Batson surprise
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:21:52 -0400
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Continuing to look through the microfilm copies of Robert W. Gordon's
mss papers at the Library of Congress (I'm now 3/4 way through), I
got a surprise.  Laws, under Batson, I 10, cites only Lomax, Our
Singing Country (from LC Record 95 A and B), and "Gordon, 45, parts
of two fragments."  I recently posted here wondering whether or not
this was "it" (except for the handwritten "ballet" that I've located
recently, which may be in Ed Batson's own hand).The surprise was Gordon 3759, consisting of a letter to Gordon from
S. H. Jones, Assistant District Attorney, 14th Judicial District of
Louisiana, dated December 20, 1929, Lake Charles, LA, and two
accompanying sheets on which 11 verses of a coherent version of the
ballad are typed, as "dictated by an old negro of this city who sang
them."  Jones explains that Gordon's letter of February 9, 1927,
addressed to Mr. Robert Mouton, Lafayette, Louisiana, "somehow came
to my attention," so he (Jones) is providing information in response.
That's nearly a three year delay in a response.Somehow Laws must have overlooked this item.  I think that it is an
important one.  That now gives three substantial versions of the song
for comparison with one another and the actual facts of the case.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: [unmask]
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Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:46:29 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:32:59 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/21/2001 8:31:44 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      That information might indicate -
>      though not prove - where Kelly's print shop was
>
> There's no doubt that Michael Kelly's shop was in Pall Mall in London.
>
> John MouldenAt 9 Pall Mall Street. See text in my Scarce Songs 1 file, now with
complete heading and publisher's imprint.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Missing Link Found
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:06:07 -0400
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Not Darwin's missing link, they abound.  This one is the only one I
know of of its type.As "Frankie" usually comes to us, it begins something like (from memory):Frankie was a good girl,
As everybody knows,
She spent (an exaggerated sum that might originally have been less)
For Albert a suit of clothes,
   He was her man,
   Her gamblin' man.This is good and symmetric.  The two characters are treated alike, in
that both are known by their first names only.  However, the victim's
first name was "Allen," not "Albert" - he was Allen Britt.  Allen was
called "Al" (there is testimony on this from Frankie herself - thus,
he was known as "Al Britt."  When passed along a few times, this
surely would become the "Albert," as in recovered versions.  But
would a song include Britt's last name and not Frankie's?  I don't
think so.  I imagined that the earliest versions of the ballad spoke
of "Frankie Baker" and "Al Britt."Indeed, "Frankie Baker" has long been in widespread use in North
Carolina (why there especially?) as the title of the song.  In vain I
have looked for *verses* that name "Frankie Baker."  There is no such
in Bruce Buckley's dissertation, "Frankie and Her Men," which treats
200 versions and fragments (Buckley's count).  However, in looking
through Robert Winslow Gordon's papers, in his "North Carolina
Collection," p 186, I found a fragment ("Frankie Baker," Mrs. H. A.
Barrier, State Hospital, Morgantown, N.C., December 4, 1925, Record
A-128) that opens as follows.Frankie Baker was a good girl
As everybody knows;
She paid a hundred dollar bill
For a suit of little Albert's clothes.
   'Twas all because
   She loved him so.There it is, the missing link.  Regressing "Albert" to "Al Britt," we
would have a version that gives the full names of each party (and, of
course, Alice Pryor is always given a full name, even if it's the
wrong one, "Alice Pry," "Alice Fry," "Nellie Bly," etc.)Why, then was "Baker" dropped from the body of the song.  For
symmetry, I think.  After the man became "Albert," giving Frankie a
last name made an unbalanced song.  It may also be that "Frankie was
a good girl" sings better than "Frankie Baker was a good girl."--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:20:44 -0700
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Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her full
first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973).  It's curious that
other early versions that have the full name in the title, "Frankie Baker"
(i.e., Ernest Thompson, 1924, and Emry Arthur, 1929) never mention her last
name in the text.
Norm Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:06 PM
Subject: Missing Link Found> Not Darwin's missing link, they abound.  This one is the only one I
> know of of its type.
>
> As "Frankie" usually comes to us, it begins something like (from memory):
>
> Frankie was a good girl,
> As everybody knows,
> She spent (an exaggerated sum that might originally have been less)
> For Albert a suit of clothes,
>    He was her man,
>    Her gamblin' man.
>
> This is good and symmetric.  The two characters are treated alike, in
> that both are known by their first names only.  However, the victim's
> first name was "Allen," not "Albert" - he was Allen Britt.  Allen was
> called "Al" (there is testimony on this from Frankie herself - thus,
> he was known as "Al Britt."  When passed along a few times, this
> surely would become the "Albert," as in recovered versions.  But
> would a song include Britt's last name and not Frankie's?  I don't
> think so.  I imagined that the earliest versions of the ballad spoke
> of "Frankie Baker" and "Al Britt."
>
> Indeed, "Frankie Baker" has long been in widespread use in North
> Carolina (why there especially?) as the title of the song.  In vain I
> have looked for *verses* that name "Frankie Baker."  There is no such
> in Bruce Buckley's dissertation, "Frankie and Her Men," which treats
> 200 versions and fragments (Buckley's count).  However, in looking
> through Robert Winslow Gordon's papers, in his "North Carolina
> Collection," p 186, I found a fragment ("Frankie Baker," Mrs. H. A.
> Barrier, State Hospital, Morgantown, N.C., December 4, 1925, Record
> A-128) that opens as follows.
>
> Frankie Baker was a good girl
> As everybody knows;
> She paid a hundred dollar bill
> For a suit of little Albert's clothes.
>    'Twas all because
>    She loved him so.
>
> There it is, the missing link.  Regressing "Albert" to "Al Britt," we
> would have a version that gives the full names of each party (and, of
> course, Alice Pryor is always given a full name, even if it's the
> wrong one, "Alice Pry," "Alice Fry," "Nellie Bly," etc.)
>
> Why, then was "Baker" dropped from the body of the song.  For
> symmetry, I think.  After the man became "Albert," giving Frankie a
> last name made an unbalanced song.  It may also be that "Frankie was
> a good girl" sings better than "Frankie Baker was a good girl."
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:41:34 -0400
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>Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her full
>first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:25:15 -0700
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I did listen to it with that in mind (for another purpose I had recently put
all the versions I have--about 80--on 4 CDs), and I'm reasonably sure he
says Albert, not Al Britt (but that is a pretty tough call).    However,
interestingly, Roba Stanley (1924) calls him Alvin (several times).
NC----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Missing Link Found> >Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her
full
> >first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....
>
> Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
> noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
> other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
> My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
> that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
> were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
> Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
> altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
> around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:58:41 -0500
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?Joseph Hilstrom, aka the labor song writer Joe Hill, wrote his own farewell
on the night before he was shot by a Utah firing squad.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: EBU
From: Andy Rouse <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 30 Jun 2001 22:42:54 +0200
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Hi there everyone. If any of you can receive a frequency of the European
Broadcasting Union, then you might like to tune in from July 6-July 8 to
hear live folk and folk-related (an intentionally fuzzy description)
music from the ruins of Diosgyor Castle, Hungary, at the Kaláka Festival
- the biggest Hungarian one of its kind - which this year is sharing its
venue with the EBU. And if you're interested in what Yours Truly does
when he's not doing the university thing, then wiggle your cat's whisker
at around 8pm CET (central European time) on July 6!Andy

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Subject: Re: EBU
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:11:00 -0700
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On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, Andy Rouse wrote:> Hi there everyone. If any of you can receive a frequency of the European
> Broadcasting Union, then you might like to tune in from July 6-July 8 to
> hear live folk and folk-related (an intentionally fuzzy description)
> music from the ruins of Diosgyor Castle, Hungary, at the Kaláka Festival
> - the biggest Hungarian one of its kind - which this year is sharing its
> venue with the EBU. And if you're interested in what Yours Truly does
> when he's not doing the university thing, then wiggle your cat's whisker
> at around 8pm CET (central European time) on July 6!
>
Andy:My copper-wire-on-toilet-paper coil got crushed by the dog so I will miss
your broadcast.  Good luck anyway.EdP.S.  Got good reception too.  All the way to Bakersfield from Santa
Monica.

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Subject: Scots tunes
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:07:05 -0400
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Supplementary to bibliography in the Scots tunes files on my website:Further information on 16th and 17th century
MS and printed sources can be found on web at:
www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/julia/glossary/Abbrev.htm#manuscripts
Wighton Collection-Dundee:
www.dundecity.gov.uk/centlib/wighton/airs.htm -
Library of Congress has excellent copy of Alex Stuart's
'Musick for Allan Ramsay's [TTM], beautifully engraved by
Cooper, but full of errors. Wighton couldn't aquire
copy, so transcribed it, correcting the errors- in his
collection, Dundee.Buy microfilms of most 16th and 17th century Scots music
collections in a series at www.adam-matthew-
publications.com/collect/p104.htm. Individual Panmure MSS
available on microfilm from NLS.Jack Campin, now on Ballad-L list, can probably tell us more
about what's at Dundee-Wighton colln, and elsewhere in Scotland,
especially 18th century and early 19th century ones. Stenhouse's,
Blaike's [traditional tunes- all noted for Motherwell?], C. K. Sharpe's,
and Lady John Scots'.Wighton colln has partial transcript of 'Blaike MS of 1692'.
Wm. Chappell said it was 'Lady Katharine Boyd's Bass Viol MS'.
Location of his transcript (112 tunes) now unknown to me.
Does anyone know where it is?Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles: popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>My Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Randolph's Ozark Folksongs
From: Dean Clamons <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:08:52 -0400
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Can someone advise me whether there is any reason (other than collector value)
for preferring the 1st edition Randolph Ozark Folksongs to the 1980 edition?Thanks,Dean Clamons
Code 7420
Naval Research Lab
Washington, DC 20375
202-767-2732

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Subject: Re: Randolph's Ozark Folksongs
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:32:04 -0500
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On 6/4/01, Dean Clamons wrote:>Can someone advise me whether there is any reason (other than collector value)
>for preferring the 1st edition Randolph Ozark Folksongs to the 1980 edition?There is indeed a reason to prefer the first edition: It's complete.
A handful of songs were omitted from the second edition for copyright
reasons, and (to the best of my knowledge) absolutely nothing was
added except a note saying that some songs were cut. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Robin Hood
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:29:07 -0400
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Bibliography updateListings of the 17th century Robin Hood ballads in Stephen Knight's
'Robin Hood: The Forresters Manuscript', 1998, have been added into the
Robin Hood section of the broadside ballad index on my website.Some are pretty much straight from printed copies, although 2 of these
are considerably earlier than any known printed copy, some are quite
variant, and 2 were prevously unknown.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles: popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:22:54 -0400
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Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
ballad that his father sings.  It opensOne dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
And throw your leg over me, dearI don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
wants background information, etc.How about it?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:36:25 -0500
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On 6/9/01, John Garst wrote:>Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
>singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
>ballad that his father sings.  It opens
>
>One dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
>To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
>And throw your leg over me, dear
>
>I don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
>that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
>and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
>wants background information, etc.Tsk. You didn't check the Ballad Index.Bibliographic references are:Randolph-Legman I, pp. 33-39, "Creeping and Crawling" (7 texts, 2 tunes)
Kennedy 178, "The Knife in the Window" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, CRPCRAWL KNIFWINDThere will be good material in both Randolph-Legman and Kennedy.It's also been recorded by A. L. Lloyd.Because it's strongly bawdy, there are no early printings. But
the Sharp MS shows it to have been known in Somerset and
Oxfordshire in 1906/1907. Likelihood is that it's much older.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: British elections
From: Andy Rouse <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:28:38 +0200
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Sorry, folks. Message to David went general on automatic reply.Andy

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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 18:11:50 EDT
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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:21:35 -0700
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On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 10:22:54AM -0400, John Garst wrote:
> Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
> singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
> ballad that his father sings.  It opens
>
> One dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
> To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
> And throw your leg over me, dear
>
> I don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
> that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
> and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
> wants background information, etc.
>
> How about it?        It's been being sung in concert, and probably recorded, by Cordelia's Dad, an
eclectic band from Boston.  One of their 'roots' is electric rock (which interests
me not), but another is traditional American vocal.  Will take me a bit of time
to look up the source of this one, possibly the Frank & Anne Warner collection.
        The band has been around for a while (?4 or ?5 CDs' worth), and also do pretty
respectable Sacred Harp ensemble singing, as well as acoustic instrumentals.  They've
been joined recently by West Coast fiddler Laura Risk.
        Meseems this very topic was discussed -- as 'Knife in the Window'? a couple of
eons ago on this very list.  Are there Archives?  where? -- aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: Mary Stafford <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:55:34 -0000
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My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance Randolph collection of risqué material.I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge, where they sang this song.Mary Stafford

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:50:33 -0500
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On 6/11/01, Mary Stafford wrote:>My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance Randolph collection of risqué material.
>
>I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge, where they sang this song.That "unpublished" collection, for the most part, is unpublished no
more. That's the "Randolph-Legman" I referred to: The bawdy material in
Randolph. So anyone who can find that can find all those pieces
Randolph previously wasn't allowed to publish.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:54:50 -0400
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Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
"original" back to a 1669 publication.>My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
>conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
>Randolph collection of risqué material.
>
>I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
>we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
>where they sang this song.
>
>Mary Stafford--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:26:54 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> "original" back to a 1669 publication.
>
> >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> >
> >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> >where they sang this song.
> >
> >Mary Stafford
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.Check what Legman says.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:09:55 -0400
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>John Garst wrote:
>>
>>  Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
>>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
>>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
>>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.
>>
>>  >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
>>  >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
>>  >Randolph collection of risqué material.
>>  >
>>  >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
>>  >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
>>  >where they sang this song.
>>  >
>>  >Mary Stafford
>>
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]
>
>
>I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
>'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
>follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
>knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
>her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
>Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
>reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
>book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
>got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
>
>Check what Legman says.
>
>Bruce OlsonI'm not at home, now, so I can't check again this moment, but I think
that I quoted him accurately.  I'll look this evening to see if he
acknowledged Bruce.There seem to be a couple points in favor of "A Maid, I dare," for
which Legman provided the title "The Snoring Maid," as an "original"
of "Creeping and Crawling."  (1) Some informants evidently used the
title "The Snoring Maid" (Legman did, at least, for their versions; I
assume that he used the informants' titles).  (2) Some versions have
lines like, "She smiled and said ...."  In "A Maid, I dare" the lines
read, "She snored and said...."  This looks like a verbal borrowing
to me.  I don't recall whether or not any of the Ozark versions
include "She snored and said....," but the use of "The Snoring Maid"
as the title suggests that they probably do.On the other side, "A maid, I dare...." contains different incidents
from the texts I've now seen of "Creeping and Crawling."  In
particular, as Bruce points out, there is no knife, which features so
prominently in some versions that it gives the title, "The Knife in
the Window."  Further, there is no lighning and thunder, as in
"Creeping and Crawling."  Again, in "A Maid, I dare" the man has
trouble getting in, stumbles over a cradle and trundle (or some
such), and when he finally starts coitus he has it first "just a
little too high," then "just a little too low," then "O there, O
there, O there, O there."  None of those events are in "Creeping and
Crawling."It looks to me like a typical case where both sides could be right.
"A Maid, I dare" is a plausible "original," but perhaps not the only
"original" contributing to "Creeping and Crawling," or perhaps the
latter is the result of one or more recompositions of "A Maid, I
dare."--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:25:21 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >>
> >>  Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> >>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> >>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> >>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.
> >>
> >>  >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> >>  >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> >>  >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> >>  >
> >>  >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> >>  >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> >>  >where they sang this song.
> >>  >
> >>  >Mary Stafford
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  john garst    [unmask]
> >
> >
> >I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
> >'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
> >follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
> >knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
> >her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
> >Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
> >reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
> >book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
> >got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
> >
> >Check what Legman says.
> >
> >Bruce Olson
>
> I'm not at home, now, so I can't check again this moment, but I think
> that I quoted him accurately.  I'll look this evening to see if he
> acknowledged Bruce.
>
> There seem to be a couple points in favor of "A Maid, I dare," for
> which Legman provided the title "The Snoring Maid," as an "original"
> of "Creeping and Crawling."  (1) Some informants evidently used the
> title "The Snoring Maid" (Legman did, at least, for their versions; I
> assume that he used the informants' titles).  (2) Some versions have
> lines like, "She smiled and said ...."  In "A Maid, I dare" the lines
> read, "She snored and said...."  This looks like a verbal borrowing
> to me.  I don't recall whether or not any of the Ozark versions
> include "She snored and said....," but the use of "The Snoring Maid"
> as the title suggests that they probably do.
>
> On the other side, "A maid, I dare...." contains different incidents
> from the texts I've now seen of "Creeping and Crawling."  In
> particular, as Bruce points out, there is no knife, which features so
> prominently in some versions that it gives the title, "The Knife in
> the Window."  Further, there is no lighning and thunder, as in
> "Creeping and Crawling."  Again, in "A Maid, I dare" the man has
> trouble getting in, stumbles over a cradle and trundle (or some
> such), and when he finally starts coitus he has it first "just a
> little too high," then "just a little too low," then "O there, O
> there, O there, O there."  None of those events are in "Creeping and
> Crawling."
>
> It looks to me like a typical case where both sides could be right.
> "A Maid, I dare" is a plausible "original," but perhaps not the only
> "original" contributing to "Creeping and Crawling," or perhaps the
> latter is the result of one or more recompositions of "A Maid, I
> dare."
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]As Legman notes, there is no title for "A Maid, I dare not tell her
name" in 'The New Academy of Complements', 1669, and I can't see that
the 'Snoring Maid' title appeared before it's use for #1B in
Legman/Randolph, 1992."To high, to low" is a lost song and tune, the tune being cited for a
bawdy ballad of 1663- c 1666 (ZN2537 in my broadside ballad index, text
in Common Muse, #155, and on Bodleian Ballads website), but isn't for
the same meter as "A Maid, I dare not tell her name"Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Martin Hugill
From: tom hall <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:41:46 -0500
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For all those who missed Mystic and cannot make the trek to Kennebunk...Final U.S. Appearance This Tour!
Direct from Songs of Sail 2001 and  The Mystic Sea Music FestivalMARTIN HUGILL
Renowned British Singer of Folk and Sea Songs
Son of the Legendary Shantyman Stan HugillAlso Featuring
BOB WEBB , "King of the Shanty" and TOM HALL, Press Room Patriarch1:30 p.m. -- Sunday, June 17, 2001
Upstairs at The Press Room
77 Daniel Street, Portsmouth, NH
Tickets $5.00 at the door
First Come, First Seated! -- Doors Open at 1:00 P.M.Martin Hugill was brought up with shanties and sea
songs from an early age, being the youngest son of the
late Stan Hugill, last of the shantymen.He has sung with some legendary performers in the
United Kingdom, induding Tony Davis's "Shipmates," and
with the Celtic music band "Sam." He often performs
with his brother Phil Hugill, and has earned acclaim
at festivals in Poland, Germany, France and the United
States.Martin usually accompanies himself on cittern guitar
or on mandolin. He has recently begun to add the sea
songs of Wales, his native country, to his repertoire.
When not singing songs of the sea, he performs in a
ceilidh band around the borders of England and Wales.His father, Stan Hugill, was one of the most important
collectors of the working songs of deepwater mariners
under sail. He was the last man to sing a working
shanty aboard a British square-rigged merchant ship,
in 1929. His principal work, "Shanties from the Seven
Seas," was published in 1961. It has become the "bible"
of modern shanty singers around the world.Martin Hugill currently lives in Shropshire, England.

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:32:06 -0700
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Folks:Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.EdOn Mon, 11 Jun 2001, W. B. OLSON wrote:> John Garst wrote:
> >
> > Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> > Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> > material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> > "original" back to a 1669 publication.
> >
> > >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> > >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> > >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> > >
> > >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> > >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> > >where they sang this song.
> > >
> > >Mary Stafford
> >
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
>
>
> I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
> 'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
> follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
> knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
> her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
> Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
> reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
> book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
> got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
>
> Check what Legman says.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.
>

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:01:34 -0500
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On 6/11/01, Ed Cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.Legman certainly overreached, and I'm willing to disallow the
1669 claim (note that the Ballad Index doesn't buy it). But
"A-Creeping" is certainly the same song as "The Knife in the
Window." "Knife," what's more, is British; see Kennedy (#178).
Now Kennedy overreaches, too, and I've stopped trusting his
bibliography. Still, we have a song attested in the Ozarks early
in the twentieth century, and in England in the mid-twentieth
century. Says to me that the song is pretty old, and English.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:39:37 -0400
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Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> On 6/11/01, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> >Folks:
> >
> >Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.
>
> Legman certainly overreached, and I'm willing to disallow the
> 1669 claim (note that the Ballad Index doesn't buy it). But
> "A-Creeping" is certainly the same song as "The Knife in the
> Window." "Knife," what's more, is British; see Kennedy (#178).
> Now Kennedy overreaches, too, and I've stopped trusting his
> bibliography. Still, we have a song attested in the Ozarks early
> in the twentieth century, and in England in the mid-twentieth
> century. Says to me that the song is pretty old, and English.
>
> --'pretty old' is not a number that I can understand.Legman notes that a version of "A Maid, I dare not tell her name"
(which is also in the 1671 edition of 'The New Academy of
Complements') appeared in Maidment's 'Ane Pleasant Garland', c
1835 (thanks to Murray Shoolbraid for a xerox copy of the complete
book), and was reprinted in Farmer's 'Merry Songs', I, p. 279-80
(last song in vol). The title Maidment gave the song was "The
Nameless Maiden". Maidment's source (as for most in his book) was
NLS MS Adv. 19.1.3, where the song appears without title on fol. 40
(as seen on microfilm).John and Edward Phillips were educated by their uncle, secretary of
the long parliment, and sometime poet, John Milton. John's poetry
was limited to pieces for drolleries and broadside ballads, most
of which were poetically excellant. One of his broadside ballads is
"The Merchant and the Fiddler's Wife", probably first published by
Richard Burton. Burton entered no ballads in the Stationers'
Register, but the ballad here was transfered, with others
originally published by Burton, to F. Coles, et. al. in July 1678.The ballad being too long for a drollery, a few verses were given,
and the rest summarized in prose in 'Oxford Drollery', 5th ed.
1685. The ballad has long been familiar from a reprint with it's
tune (B391 on my website) in all editions of 'Pills to Purge
Melancholy', and I've heard it sung several times. Ed McCurdy also
recorded a version.Randolph collected three very fragmentary versions in the Ozarks,
and these are given as "The Fidler's Bitch" in Legman/Randolph,
#101, with some of the story given in prose. Legman took the piece
to be a cante fable (of whose origin he knew nothing) and wandered
off into mostly irrelevant comments and ending up at the irrelevant
"Maids when you're young never wed an old man".Legman's 'The Hornbook', 1964, was named after a work of 1899 (tp
facsimile, p. 49). Legman discusses the work at length but really
gets nowhere on who was responsible for the English version. Legman
also discusses John Steven Farmer, and notes that he couldn't trace
Farmer's whereabouts at the end of the 19th century. On p. 26 Legman
had dismissed 'Suburban Souls' as probably a work of fiction. It
wasn't. It's primarily Jacky/ John S.... [Farmer's] autobiography
coverting the period May 1895 to Jan. 1900, from his main base in
Paris. Farmer notes that he had completed the corrections to 'The
Horn Book' for the Rotterdam bookseller Vanderpunk by Dec. 1898, and
had worked on other books of erotica (titles given) for
publication.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Creeping Legman
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:33:21 -0400
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I wrote:>  ...Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.Bruce wrote:>  I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is
>  really the 'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling...>  Check what Legman says.I have now checked Legman.  He wrote:"The true original of all these strains (except 'Locks and Bolts') is
'The Snoring Maid,' in The New Academy of Complements (London, 1669)
pp. 181-2, Song 166, without title, in six double stanzas...."I presume that "all these strains" refers to those mentioned in the
paragraph just above the quotation, "Pretty Polly" (Randolph/Legman),
"Tardy Wooer," "Snoring Maid" (Randolph/Legman, Mr. C. I.), "Creepin'
an' a-Crawlin'."Some points for and against Legman's "original" have been given here
previously.  I now noted that all of Randolph's versions, except one,
include the lines "She snored an' replied..." and the one exception
has "She snorted and cried..."  Further "The Snoring Maid" was Mr. C.
I.'s title, which he heard "back in 1889," so Legman did not
originate it."Creeping and Crawling" looks like a recomposition of "A Maid, I
dare" and in that sense, the latter could be an "original."  What
they share is a two-part formula.  (1) The man meets an obstacle, the
woman provides a solution.  (2) She gives the solution in the line
"She snored (snorted, smiled, etc.) and said...."  These elements are
shared by "C&C" and "Maid."  The obstacles are not.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:44:38 -0400
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I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
(Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."Be that as it may, I have a more general question.Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
his/her own "goodnight"?It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
hacks for timely selling as broadsides.Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
penalty.Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:54:54 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
> (Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
> jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
> experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
> The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."
>
> Be that as it may, I have a more general question.
>
> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?
>
> It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
> hacks for timely selling as broadsides.
>
> Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
> his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
> penalty.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
website.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:00:19 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
> (Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
> jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
> experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
> The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."
>
> Be that as it may, I have a more general question.
>
> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?
>
> It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
> hacks for timely selling as broadsides.
>
> Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
> his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
> penalty.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
Murderer."Bruce Olson
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Creeping Legman
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:28:03 -0400
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I note that Legman, 'The Hornbook', p.  368, 1964, said that the
manuscript from which Maidment extracted the songs for 'Ane
Pleasant Garland' could no longer be found in the Advocates
Library, now part of NLS. He couldn't have looked very hard.Incidently, the microfilm copy of the manuscript in which I ran
across the songs in 'Ane Pleasant Garland', NLS MS Adv. 19.1.13,
came from Harvester Microfilm, now Primary Source Microfilm
(which has a website).Also, Legman's wild imagination found some connection of "A Creeping and
a crawling) with a version of "Locks and Bolts do Hinder". The latter is
well known, and has a long history, and descends from a broadside ballad
of September, 1631, (and was doubtlessly reworked older material closely
related to Earl Brand/ Childe of Elle/ Masterpiece of Love Songs/ Bold
Soldier/ Seaman's Renown) listed with Laws and Roud numbers (M13 and
#406) at ZN3202 in the broadside ballad index on my website. I can see
no connection at all between it and "A creeping and a crawling".Bruce Olson--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:37:30 -0400
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At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:>John Garst wrote:
>...
>  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
>  > his/her own "goodnight"?
>...>Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
>website.and>Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
>"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
>Murderer."What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:05:03 -0400
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Well, in more recent years, Bonnie Parker (of Bonnie and Clyde fame) wrote a
Ballad of Bonnie and Clyde. And on a personal experience note, I was down in
Kentucky with Margo Mayo when she was collecting "Farewell to Sweet Beaver",
reportedly composed by one Mart Hayes shortly before his colorful execution
(he refused to work on the road gang, so he was placed in a well with a pump
and told to pump or drown--he refused to work). Turns out that it was a
localised re-write of "Prisoner for Life". Does that count?John Garst wrote:> At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >...
> >  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> >  > his/her own "goodnight"?
> >...
>
> >Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
> >website.
>
> and
>
> >Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
> >"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
> >Murderer."
>
> What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:59:42 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >...
> >  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> >  > his/her own "goodnight"?
> >...
>
> >Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
> >website.
>
> and
>
> >Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
> >"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
> >Murderer."
>
> What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]On Tichborne's 'Elegie': Morfils' note in 'Ballads from
Manuscripts', II, xxiii, 1873, reads:Many MSS. exist of this interesting and undoubtably genuine
composition, ....To the best of my knowledge the handwriting in these manuscripts
has not been compared to that in the letter which Tichborne wrote
to his wife that same night, which he signed 'Chideock
Tichebourne'.Mackpherson remained defiant until the end and it seems to me
this is more realistic than the pious, repentant verses that
ballad writers put in the mouth of the condemned."Et tu Brutus" seems to me to ring true, though  not very
inspired.Two of four accounts of the execution of a condemned criminal c
30-35 CE report his last words were "My God, my God, why hast
thou forsaken me". This seems to me to be totally out of
character for the man the four accounts portray, and I take it to
be pure fiction.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:30:09 -0400
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>Well, in more recent years, Bonnie Parker (of Bonnie and Clyde fame) wrote a
>Ballad of Bonnie and Clyde. And on a personal experience note, I was down in
>Kentucky with Margo Mayo when she was collecting "Farewell to Sweet Beaver",
>reportedly composed by one Mart Hayes shortly before his colorful execution
>(he refused to work on the road gang, so he was placed in a well with a pump
>and told to pump or drown--he refused to work). Turns out that it was a
>localised re-write of "Prisoner for Life". Does that count?Ugh!  Was he insane or retarded?Sounds like the Hayes ballad simply fits the usual pattern of "said
to" have been written by the dying person.  Perhaps there's better
documentation for Bonnie and Clyde?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Martin Hugill
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:18:06 -0400
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Sorry, Tom... family weekend this time around.  Thanks for the fun on 6/1All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: tom hall <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 7:41 PM
Subject: Martin Hugill> For all those who missed Mystic and cannot make the trek to Kennebunk...
>
>
> Final U.S. Appearance This Tour!
> Direct from Songs of Sail 2001 and  The Mystic Sea Music Festival
>
> MARTIN HUGILL
> Renowned British Singer of Folk and Sea Songs
> Son of the Legendary Shantyman Stan Hugill
>
> Also Featuring
> BOB WEBB , "King of the Shanty" and TOM HALL, Press Room Patriarch
>
> 1:30 p.m. -- Sunday, June 17, 2001
> Upstairs at The Press Room
> 77 Daniel Street, Portsmouth, NH
> Tickets $5.00 at the door
> First Come, First Seated! -- Doors Open at 1:00 P.M.
>
> Martin Hugill was brought up with shanties and sea
> songs from an early age, being the youngest son of the
> late Stan Hugill, last of the shantymen.
>
> He has sung with some legendary performers in the
> United Kingdom, induding Tony Davis's "Shipmates," and
> with the Celtic music band "Sam." He often performs
> with his brother Phil Hugill, and has earned acclaim
> at festivals in Poland, Germany, France and the United
> States.
>
> Martin usually accompanies himself on cittern guitar
> or on mandolin. He has recently begun to add the sea
> songs of Wales, his native country, to his repertoire.
> When not singing songs of the sea, he performs in a
> ceilidh band around the borders of England and Wales.
>
> His father, Stan Hugill, was one of the most important
> collectors of the working songs of deepwater mariners
> under sail. He was the last man to sing a working
> shanty aboard a British square-rigged merchant ship,
> in 1929. His principal work, "Shanties from the Seven
> Seas," was published in 1961. It has become the "bible"
> of modern shanty singers around the world.
>
> Martin Hugill currently lives in Shropshire, England.

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:31:07 -0400
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A new book about Louisiana justice, treating the case of Albert Edwin
Batson (Laws I 10), is hoped to be published within the year,
according to the author.  Batson was hanged, perhaps unjustly, for
the 1902 murders, by shotgun and knife, of L. S. Earll, his wife, and
four of their children, two of whom were school children, in a rural
area near Welsh, LA, which is near Lake Charles.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:35:34 +0100
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?Jose Rizal, the hero of Philippine nationalism:http://www.univie.ac.at/Voelkerkunde/apsis/aufi/jorizal.htmI had the notion in my head that Pir Sultan Abdal did as well, but
if so I can't find it in a quick scan of his collected poems.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:12:02 +0100
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?One I forgot about in my last message, which suggests that the genre may
be older: Francois Villon's final epigram, which is quite similar in its
attitude to Macpherson's Farewell.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

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Subject: Batson versions?
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:17:19 -0400
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I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
(Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
(no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
of this murder ballad?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Batson versions?
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:53:43 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
> (Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
> copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
> I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
> (no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
> of this murder ballad?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]G. M. Laws, Jr, 'Native American Balladry', I 10, lists only Lomax's
version and parts of two fragments collected by R. W. Gordon.Bruce Olson--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Batson versions?
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:08:15 -0700
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No, John, I think that's it.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 8:17 AM
Subject: Batson versions?> I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
> (Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
> copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
> I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
> (no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
> of this murder ballad?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Sandy Ives <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:55:55 -0400
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Looking at this thing through the other end of the telescope, there need
be no question that Joe Scott wrote BENJAMIN DEANE  (Laws  F32), yet I was
often assured that Deane had written it himself from prison.  Most of
those doing the assuring were people who knew about the ballad, but even a
couple of men who sang  good versions of it made that claim. Of course, a
good half the versions I collected were from people who had no idea who
wrote it--and cared less.  So it goes.
Sandy Ives

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: [unmask]
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Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:01:15 EDT
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John Garst wrote:
>...
>   Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
>  his/her own "goodnight"?
****************************
It's not authenticated at all, but Appalachian tradition has it that a bad
man named Callahan made up  a fiddle tune while waiting on the gallows.  The
story says that Callahan was stood on the seat of a wagon with the noose
around his neck, and asked for his fiddle.  He played a complex tune, then
offered the fiddle to any bystander who could play it.  When no one took him
up on his offer, he said "Hell!  This world ain't worth living in anyway!"
and broke his fiddle over the rump of the mule hitched to the wagon, causing
the mule to move forward and leaving Callahan hanging by the neck.  The tune
is well known, and many fiddlers are able to play it well.  It's usually
called  "The Last of Callahan."  The story may be simply an embellishment of
"MacPherson's Farewell."

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Barry O'Neill <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:46:35 -0700
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I wasn't there at the time to verify it, but I'd nominate Joe Hill's Will
as a goodnight song.  It was supposed to have been passed to a prison guard
before his execution.Barry O'Neill

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:11:44 -0700
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And as long as we are on the subject of American martyrs, there is Nicolo
Sacco's letter --EdOn Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Barry O'Neill wrote:> I wasn't there at the time to verify it, but I'd nominate Joe Hill's Will
> as a goodnight song.  It was supposed to have been passed to a prison guard
> before his execution.
>
> Barry O'Neill
>

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Subject: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:17:44 -0400
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My apologies because this is not a ballad but a lyric song that turns up
with relatively little variation in many, many Irish and Irish-American
songbooks of the 19th century, early to late I believe.  Surprisingly, I can
think of hardly anyone singing it today.Does anyone have a keen idea of the age and/or origin of The Boys of
Kilkenny.  Thanks in advance.All the best,
Dan Milner

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:12:09 -0400
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Dan Milner wrote:
>
> My apologies because this is not a ballad but a lyric song that turns up
> with relatively little variation in many, many Irish and Irish-American
> songbooks of the 19th century, early to late I believe.  Surprisingly, I can
> think of hardly anyone singing it today.
>
> Does anyone have a keen idea of the age and/or origin of The Boys of
> Kilkenny.  Thanks in advance.
>
> All the best,
> Dan MilnerSong and tune from what has been taken to be the original publication is
in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website, as are other earlier, closely
related songs.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: [unmask]
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 06:17:18 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:10:34 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> Dan Milner asks about this and Bruce refers him to his very useful
> scarce
> songs web-site. This allies The Boys of Kilkenny with all sort of
> songs
> including Bonnie Portmore. While there is no doubt that some of the
> songs
> given are closely associated, there are still some missing links and
> I'm not
> sure that this group of songs is fully integrated.
> .
> John MouldenSome additional information on related songs is in a thread "Origins of
Bonny Portmore" on the Mudcat Forum (do forum search), where John
pointed out "The Strands of Magilligan" as another related song.Traditional versions of "Bonny Udney" are in the Greig-Duncan Folk Song
Collection, VI, #1089.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:15:27 -0400
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Thank you, gentlemen.  Do you happen to know where Michael Kelly's print
shop was?  For the hell of it, I wonder whether it was in... Kilkenny.All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: W. B. OLSON <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny> [unmask] wrote:
> >
> > Dan Milner asks about this and Bruce refers him to his very useful
> > scarce
> > songs web-site. This allies The Boys of Kilkenny with all sort of
> > songs
> > including Bonnie Portmore. While there is no doubt that some of the
> > songs
> > given are closely associated, there are still some missing links and
> > I'm not
> > sure that this group of songs is fully integrated.
> > .
> > John Moulden
>
> Some additional information on related songs is in a thread "Origins of
> Bonny Portmore" on the Mudcat Forum (do forum search), where John
> pointed out "The Strands of Magilligan" as another related song.
>
> Traditional versions of "Bonny Udney" are in the Greig-Duncan Folk Song
> Collection, VI, #1089.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:31:01 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:45:53 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/19/2001 2:11:55 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      Thank you, gentlemen.  Do you happen to know where Michael
>      Kelly's print
>      shop was?  For the hell of it, I wonder whether it was in...
>      Kilkenny.
>
> Rober Munter: A Dictionary of the Print Trade in Ireland 1550-1775 New
> York
> (Forham University Press) 1988 which combines and augments the earlier
>
> dictionaries and articles by Dix, O Casaide, Crosslé and many others
> has no
> entry for a Michael Kelly or for any Kelly printing or associated with
>
> printing in Ireland except an Ignatius and a Mrs. The latter was
> Ignatius'
> widow and the printed in Mary Lane, Dublin.
>
> This is merely negative information. However, as you know, I'm
> investigating
> this area and hope that much of use will emerge.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> john MouldenRoger Fiske, 'English Theatre Music in the 18th Century', 2nd ep. p. 630
say Kelly's wine and print shop were in Pall Mall (London). My
recollection is that they were near a theatre that he managed- See Kelly
in New Grove's Dictionary.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:57:34 -0400
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There are 4 copies of "The Boys of Kilkenny" listed on the Levy
collection website, but not Michael Kelly's issue. There are also
several songs there, the tunes of which were 'composed' by Kelly.
Kelly never learned to read music, so he hummed the tunes for his
songs and opera scores, and someone else noted them down.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Fwd: G. Legman
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:57:27 -0600
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This request appeared on PUBLORE this morning, and since Legman was
recently discussed on BALLAD-L, I thought some of you might have
material to share.  Please respond directly to Susan Davis
([unmask])Cheers
JamiePerhaps this is not the public folklorists' preserve, but for a short
article on Gerhson Legman, I'd love to receive reminiscences, horror
stories, citations, leads, and of course, folklore.thanks sincerelySusan Davis

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Subject: Re: Fwd: G. Legman
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:29:40 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> This request appeared on PUBLORE this morning, and since Legman was
> recently discussed on BALLAD-L, I thought some of you might have
> material to share.  Please respond directly to Susan Davis
> ([unmask])
>
> Cheers
> Jamie
>
> Perhaps this is not the public folklorists' preserve, but for a short
> article on Gerhson Legman, I'd love to receive reminiscences, horror
> stories, citations, leads, and of course, folklore.
>
> thanks sincerely
>
> Susan DavisI disposed of my correspondance with Legman several years ago. I never
met him. Perhaps Murray Shoolbraid has saved some of his.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:05:31 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:03:54 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> Anent Michael Kelly of whom Bruce Olsen stated quoting Roger Fiske
> that Kelly
> never learned to read music.
>
> There is grave doubt over the accuracy of this comment:
> WT Parke: Musical Memoirs (London, 1830) says that Kelly had little
> knowledge
> of harmony and had admitted to him in 1803 that he "Merely wrote the
> melodies
> and that the old Italian Mazzanti, did the rest" He also quotes a
> story told
> by Samuel Arnold that Kelly had come to him, after having written
> several
> operas, and enquired how long it would take to learn thorough-bass.
> David Baptie: A handbook of musical biography (London, 1883) decribed
> him as
> "far from being a profound harmonist" but "possessed the gift of
> melody to a
> great degree"
>
> Among other matters I understand that Mozart for whom he sang in the
> first
> performance of Il Nozze di Figaro, encouraged his composition.
>
> Clearly song airs were well within his ability - and to write them
> himself -
> and these needed no harmony.
>
> John MouldenI cannot now remember where I picked up the informtion that Kelly
hummed the tunes and someone else noted them down.New Grove's Dictionary, 1980 merely quotes Thomas Moore (1801)
as saying: "Poor Mick is rather an imposer than composer. He cannot
make the time in writing three bars of music: his understrappers,
however, do all this for him."Bruce OLSON
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:56:43 -0400
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Thank you for your helpful comments.  One more question please.  WT Parke -
did he operate in England or Ireland?  That information might indicate -
though not prove - where Kelly's print shop was.All the best,
Dan----- Original Message -----
From: W. B. OLSON <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny> [unmask] wrote:
> >
> > Anent Michael Kelly of whom Bruce Olsen stated quoting Roger Fiske
> > that Kelly
> > never learned to read music.
> >
> > There is grave doubt over the accuracy of this comment:
> > WT Parke: Musical Memoirs (London, 1830) says that Kelly had little
> > knowledge
> > of harmony and had admitted to him in 1803 that he "Merely wrote the
> > melodies
> > and that the old Italian Mazzanti, did the rest" He also quotes a
> > story told
> > by Samuel Arnold that Kelly had come to him, after having written
> > several
> > operas, and enquired how long it would take to learn thorough-bass.
> > David Baptie: A handbook of musical biography (London, 1883) decribed
> > him as
> > "far from being a profound harmonist" but "possessed the gift of
> > melody to a
> > great degree"
> >
> > Among other matters I understand that Mozart for whom he sang in the
> > first
> > performance of Il Nozze di Figaro, encouraged his composition.
> >
> > Clearly song airs were well within his ability - and to write them
> > himself -
> > and these needed no harmony.
> >
> > John Moulden
>
>
> I cannot now remember where I picked up the informtion that Kelly
> hummed the tunes and someone else noted them down.
>
> New Grove's Dictionary, 1980 merely quotes Thomas Moore (1801)
> as saying: "Poor Mick is rather an imposer than composer. He cannot
> make the time in writing three bars of music: his understrappers,
> however, do all this for him."
>
> Bruce OLSON
> --
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Batson surprise
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:21:52 -0400
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Continuing to look through the microfilm copies of Robert W. Gordon's
mss papers at the Library of Congress (I'm now 3/4 way through), I
got a surprise.  Laws, under Batson, I 10, cites only Lomax, Our
Singing Country (from LC Record 95 A and B), and "Gordon, 45, parts
of two fragments."  I recently posted here wondering whether or not
this was "it" (except for the handwritten "ballet" that I've located
recently, which may be in Ed Batson's own hand).The surprise was Gordon 3759, consisting of a letter to Gordon from
S. H. Jones, Assistant District Attorney, 14th Judicial District of
Louisiana, dated December 20, 1929, Lake Charles, LA, and two
accompanying sheets on which 11 verses of a coherent version of the
ballad are typed, as "dictated by an old negro of this city who sang
them."  Jones explains that Gordon's letter of February 9, 1927,
addressed to Mr. Robert Mouton, Lafayette, Louisiana, "somehow came
to my attention," so he (Jones) is providing information in response.
That's nearly a three year delay in a response.Somehow Laws must have overlooked this item.  I think that it is an
important one.  That now gives three substantial versions of the song
for comparison with one another and the actual facts of the case.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: [unmask]
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Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:46:29 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:32:59 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/21/2001 8:31:44 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      That information might indicate -
>      though not prove - where Kelly's print shop was
>
> There's no doubt that Michael Kelly's shop was in Pall Mall in London.
>
> John MouldenAt 9 Pall Mall Street. See text in my Scarce Songs 1 file, now with
complete heading and publisher's imprint.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Missing Link Found
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:06:07 -0400
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Not Darwin's missing link, they abound.  This one is the only one I
know of of its type.As "Frankie" usually comes to us, it begins something like (from memory):Frankie was a good girl,
As everybody knows,
She spent (an exaggerated sum that might originally have been less)
For Albert a suit of clothes,
   He was her man,
   Her gamblin' man.This is good and symmetric.  The two characters are treated alike, in
that both are known by their first names only.  However, the victim's
first name was "Allen," not "Albert" - he was Allen Britt.  Allen was
called "Al" (there is testimony on this from Frankie herself - thus,
he was known as "Al Britt."  When passed along a few times, this
surely would become the "Albert," as in recovered versions.  But
would a song include Britt's last name and not Frankie's?  I don't
think so.  I imagined that the earliest versions of the ballad spoke
of "Frankie Baker" and "Al Britt."Indeed, "Frankie Baker" has long been in widespread use in North
Carolina (why there especially?) as the title of the song.  In vain I
have looked for *verses* that name "Frankie Baker."  There is no such
in Bruce Buckley's dissertation, "Frankie and Her Men," which treats
200 versions and fragments (Buckley's count).  However, in looking
through Robert Winslow Gordon's papers, in his "North Carolina
Collection," p 186, I found a fragment ("Frankie Baker," Mrs. H. A.
Barrier, State Hospital, Morgantown, N.C., December 4, 1925, Record
A-128) that opens as follows.Frankie Baker was a good girl
As everybody knows;
She paid a hundred dollar bill
For a suit of little Albert's clothes.
   'Twas all because
   She loved him so.There it is, the missing link.  Regressing "Albert" to "Al Britt," we
would have a version that gives the full names of each party (and, of
course, Alice Pryor is always given a full name, even if it's the
wrong one, "Alice Pry," "Alice Fry," "Nellie Bly," etc.)Why, then was "Baker" dropped from the body of the song.  For
symmetry, I think.  After the man became "Albert," giving Frankie a
last name made an unbalanced song.  It may also be that "Frankie was
a good girl" sings better than "Frankie Baker was a good girl."--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:20:44 -0700
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Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her full
first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973).  It's curious that
other early versions that have the full name in the title, "Frankie Baker"
(i.e., Ernest Thompson, 1924, and Emry Arthur, 1929) never mention her last
name in the text.
Norm Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:06 PM
Subject: Missing Link Found> Not Darwin's missing link, they abound.  This one is the only one I
> know of of its type.
>
> As "Frankie" usually comes to us, it begins something like (from memory):
>
> Frankie was a good girl,
> As everybody knows,
> She spent (an exaggerated sum that might originally have been less)
> For Albert a suit of clothes,
>    He was her man,
>    Her gamblin' man.
>
> This is good and symmetric.  The two characters are treated alike, in
> that both are known by their first names only.  However, the victim's
> first name was "Allen," not "Albert" - he was Allen Britt.  Allen was
> called "Al" (there is testimony on this from Frankie herself - thus,
> he was known as "Al Britt."  When passed along a few times, this
> surely would become the "Albert," as in recovered versions.  But
> would a song include Britt's last name and not Frankie's?  I don't
> think so.  I imagined that the earliest versions of the ballad spoke
> of "Frankie Baker" and "Al Britt."
>
> Indeed, "Frankie Baker" has long been in widespread use in North
> Carolina (why there especially?) as the title of the song.  In vain I
> have looked for *verses* that name "Frankie Baker."  There is no such
> in Bruce Buckley's dissertation, "Frankie and Her Men," which treats
> 200 versions and fragments (Buckley's count).  However, in looking
> through Robert Winslow Gordon's papers, in his "North Carolina
> Collection," p 186, I found a fragment ("Frankie Baker," Mrs. H. A.
> Barrier, State Hospital, Morgantown, N.C., December 4, 1925, Record
> A-128) that opens as follows.
>
> Frankie Baker was a good girl
> As everybody knows;
> She paid a hundred dollar bill
> For a suit of little Albert's clothes.
>    'Twas all because
>    She loved him so.
>
> There it is, the missing link.  Regressing "Albert" to "Al Britt," we
> would have a version that gives the full names of each party (and, of
> course, Alice Pryor is always given a full name, even if it's the
> wrong one, "Alice Pry," "Alice Fry," "Nellie Bly," etc.)
>
> Why, then was "Baker" dropped from the body of the song.  For
> symmetry, I think.  After the man became "Albert," giving Frankie a
> last name made an unbalanced song.  It may also be that "Frankie was
> a good girl" sings better than "Frankie Baker was a good girl."
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:41:34 -0400
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>Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her full
>first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:25:15 -0700
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I did listen to it with that in mind (for another purpose I had recently put
all the versions I have--about 80--on 4 CDs), and I'm reasonably sure he
says Albert, not Al Britt (but that is a pretty tough call).    However,
interestingly, Roba Stanley (1924) calls him Alvin (several times).
NC----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Missing Link Found> >Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her
full
> >first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....
>
> Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
> noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
> other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
> My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
> that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
> were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
> Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
> altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
> around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:58:41 -0500
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?Joseph Hilstrom, aka the labor song writer Joe Hill, wrote his own farewell
on the night before he was shot by a Utah firing squad.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: EBU
From: Andy Rouse <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 30 Jun 2001 22:42:54 +0200
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Hi there everyone. If any of you can receive a frequency of the European
Broadcasting Union, then you might like to tune in from July 6-July 8 to
hear live folk and folk-related (an intentionally fuzzy description)
music from the ruins of Diosgyor Castle, Hungary, at the Kaláka Festival
- the biggest Hungarian one of its kind - which this year is sharing its
venue with the EBU. And if you're interested in what Yours Truly does
when he's not doing the university thing, then wiggle your cat's whisker
at around 8pm CET (central European time) on July 6!Andy

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Subject: Re: EBU
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:11:00 -0700
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On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, Andy Rouse wrote:> Hi there everyone. If any of you can receive a frequency of the European
> Broadcasting Union, then you might like to tune in from July 6-July 8 to
> hear live folk and folk-related (an intentionally fuzzy description)
> music from the ruins of Diosgyor Castle, Hungary, at the Kaláka Festival
> - the biggest Hungarian one of its kind - which this year is sharing its
> venue with the EBU. And if you're interested in what Yours Truly does
> when he's not doing the university thing, then wiggle your cat's whisker
> at around 8pm CET (central European time) on July 6!
>
Andy:My copper-wire-on-toilet-paper coil got crushed by the dog so I will miss
your broadcast.  Good luck anyway.EdP.S.  Got good reception too.  All the way to Bakersfield from Santa
Monica.

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Subject: Scots tunes
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Sun, 3 Jun 2001 11:07:05 -0400
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Supplementary to bibliography in the Scots tunes files on my website:Further information on 16th and 17th century
MS and printed sources can be found on web at:
www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/julia/glossary/Abbrev.htm#manuscripts
Wighton Collection-Dundee:
www.dundecity.gov.uk/centlib/wighton/airs.htm -
Library of Congress has excellent copy of Alex Stuart's
'Musick for Allan Ramsay's [TTM], beautifully engraved by
Cooper, but full of errors. Wighton couldn't aquire
copy, so transcribed it, correcting the errors- in his
collection, Dundee.Buy microfilms of most 16th and 17th century Scots music
collections in a series at www.adam-matthew-
publications.com/collect/p104.htm. Individual Panmure MSS
available on microfilm from NLS.Jack Campin, now on Ballad-L list, can probably tell us more
about what's at Dundee-Wighton colln, and elsewhere in Scotland,
especially 18th century and early 19th century ones. Stenhouse's,
Blaike's [traditional tunes- all noted for Motherwell?], C. K. Sharpe's,
and Lady John Scots'.Wighton colln has partial transcript of 'Blaike MS of 1692'.
Wm. Chappell said it was 'Lady Katharine Boyd's Bass Viol MS'.
Location of his transcript (112 tunes) now unknown to me.
Does anyone know where it is?Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles: popular and folk songs, tunes, and broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)-www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>My Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Randolph's Ozark Folksongs
From: Dean Clamons <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:08:52 -0400
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Can someone advise me whether there is any reason (other than collector value)
for preferring the 1st edition Randolph Ozark Folksongs to the 1980 edition?Thanks,Dean Clamons
Code 7420
Naval Research Lab
Washington, DC 20375
202-767-2732

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Subject: Re: Randolph's Ozark Folksongs
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:32:04 -0500
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On 6/4/01, Dean Clamons wrote:>Can someone advise me whether there is any reason (other than collector value)
>for preferring the 1st edition Randolph Ozark Folksongs to the 1980 edition?There is indeed a reason to prefer the first edition: It's complete.
A handful of songs were omitted from the second edition for copyright
reasons, and (to the best of my knowledge) absolutely nothing was
added except a note saying that some songs were cut. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Robin Hood
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Bibliography updateListings of the 17th century Robin Hood ballads in Stephen Knight's
'Robin Hood: The Forresters Manuscript', 1998, have been added into the
Robin Hood section of the broadside ballad index on my website.Some are pretty much straight from printed copies, although 2 of these
are considerably earlier than any known printed copy, some are quite
variant, and 2 were prevously unknown.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles: popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
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Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 10:22:54 -0400
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Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
ballad that his father sings.  It opensOne dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
And throw your leg over me, dearI don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
wants background information, etc.How about it?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:36:25 -0500
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On 6/9/01, John Garst wrote:>Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
>singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
>ballad that his father sings.  It opens
>
>One dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
>To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
>And throw your leg over me, dear
>
>I don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
>that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
>and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
>wants background information, etc.Tsk. You didn't check the Ballad Index.Bibliographic references are:Randolph-Legman I, pp. 33-39, "Creeping and Crawling" (7 texts, 2 tunes)
Kennedy 178, "The Knife in the Window" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, CRPCRAWL KNIFWINDThere will be good material in both Randolph-Legman and Kennedy.It's also been recorded by A. L. Lloyd.Because it's strongly bawdy, there are no early printings. But
the Sharp MS shows it to have been known in Somerset and
Oxfordshire in 1906/1907. Likelihood is that it's much older.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: British elections
From: Andy Rouse <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:28:38 +0200
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Sorry, folks. Message to David went general on automatic reply.Andy

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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
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Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 18:11:50 EDT
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Subject: Re: Crawling and Creeping, Nancy and Johnny
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:21:35 -0700
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On Sat, Jun 09, 2001 at 10:22:54AM -0400, John Garst wrote:
> Brad Leftwich, a wonderful old-time fiddler, banjo-picker, and
> singer, has e-mailed me asking if I knew anything about an old bawdy
> ballad that his father sings.  It opens
>
> One dark night I went crawling and creeping (2x)
> To the edge of the bed where Polly lay sleeping
> And throw your leg over me, dear
>
> I don't know the song, but I've done a little WWW checking and found
> that it was recorded by Asa Martin and that it is known as "Crawling
> and Creeping" or "Nancy and Johnny."  Brad wonders how old it is,
> wants background information, etc.
>
> How about it?        It's been being sung in concert, and probably recorded, by Cordelia's Dad, an
eclectic band from Boston.  One of their 'roots' is electric rock (which interests
me not), but another is traditional American vocal.  Will take me a bit of time
to look up the source of this one, possibly the Frank & Anne Warner collection.
        The band has been around for a while (?4 or ?5 CDs' worth), and also do pretty
respectable Sacred Harp ensemble singing, as well as acoustic instrumentals.  They've
been joined recently by West Coast fiddler Laura Risk.
        Meseems this very topic was discussed -- as 'Knife in the Window'? a couple of
eons ago on this very list.  Are there Archives?  where? -- aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: Mary Stafford <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 09:55:34 -0000
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My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance Randolph collection of risqué material.I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge, where they sang this song.Mary Stafford

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:50:33 -0500
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On 6/11/01, Mary Stafford wrote:>My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance Randolph collection of risqué material.
>
>I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge, where they sang this song.That "unpublished" collection, for the most part, is unpublished no
more. That's the "Randolph-Legman" I referred to: The bawdy material in
Randolph. So anyone who can find that can find all those pieces
Randolph previously wasn't allowed to publish.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:54:50 -0400
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Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
"original" back to a 1669 publication.>My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
>conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
>Randolph collection of risqué material.
>
>I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
>we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
>where they sang this song.
>
>Mary Stafford--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 14:26:54 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> "original" back to a 1669 publication.
>
> >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> >
> >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> >where they sang this song.
> >
> >Mary Stafford
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.Check what Legman says.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:09:55 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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>John Garst wrote:
>>
>>  Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
>>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
>>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
>>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.
>>
>>  >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
>>  >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
>>  >Randolph collection of risqué material.
>>  >
>>  >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
>>  >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
>>  >where they sang this song.
>>  >
>>  >Mary Stafford
>>
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]
>
>
>I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
>'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
>follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
>knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
>her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
>Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
>reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
>book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
>got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
>
>Check what Legman says.
>
>Bruce OlsonI'm not at home, now, so I can't check again this moment, but I think
that I quoted him accurately.  I'll look this evening to see if he
acknowledged Bruce.There seem to be a couple points in favor of "A Maid, I dare," for
which Legman provided the title "The Snoring Maid," as an "original"
of "Creeping and Crawling."  (1) Some informants evidently used the
title "The Snoring Maid" (Legman did, at least, for their versions; I
assume that he used the informants' titles).  (2) Some versions have
lines like, "She smiled and said ...."  In "A Maid, I dare" the lines
read, "She snored and said...."  This looks like a verbal borrowing
to me.  I don't recall whether or not any of the Ozark versions
include "She snored and said....," but the use of "The Snoring Maid"
as the title suggests that they probably do.On the other side, "A maid, I dare...." contains different incidents
from the texts I've now seen of "Creeping and Crawling."  In
particular, as Bruce points out, there is no knife, which features so
prominently in some versions that it gives the title, "The Knife in
the Window."  Further, there is no lighning and thunder, as in
"Creeping and Crawling."  Again, in "A Maid, I dare" the man has
trouble getting in, stumbles over a cradle and trundle (or some
such), and when he finally starts coitus he has it first "just a
little too high," then "just a little too low," then "O there, O
there, O there, O there."  None of those events are in "Creeping and
Crawling."It looks to me like a typical case where both sides could be right.
"A Maid, I dare" is a plausible "original," but perhaps not the only
"original" contributing to "Creeping and Crawling," or perhaps the
latter is the result of one or more recompositions of "A Maid, I
dare."--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 16:25:21 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >>
> >>  Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> >>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> >>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> >>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.
> >>
> >>  >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> >>  >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> >>  >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> >>  >
> >>  >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> >>  >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> >>  >where they sang this song.
> >>  >
> >>  >Mary Stafford
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  john garst    [unmask]
> >
> >
> >I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
> >'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
> >follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
> >knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
> >her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
> >Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
> >reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
> >book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
> >got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
> >
> >Check what Legman says.
> >
> >Bruce Olson
>
> I'm not at home, now, so I can't check again this moment, but I think
> that I quoted him accurately.  I'll look this evening to see if he
> acknowledged Bruce.
>
> There seem to be a couple points in favor of "A Maid, I dare," for
> which Legman provided the title "The Snoring Maid," as an "original"
> of "Creeping and Crawling."  (1) Some informants evidently used the
> title "The Snoring Maid" (Legman did, at least, for their versions; I
> assume that he used the informants' titles).  (2) Some versions have
> lines like, "She smiled and said ...."  In "A Maid, I dare" the lines
> read, "She snored and said...."  This looks like a verbal borrowing
> to me.  I don't recall whether or not any of the Ozark versions
> include "She snored and said....," but the use of "The Snoring Maid"
> as the title suggests that they probably do.
>
> On the other side, "A maid, I dare...." contains different incidents
> from the texts I've now seen of "Creeping and Crawling."  In
> particular, as Bruce points out, there is no knife, which features so
> prominently in some versions that it gives the title, "The Knife in
> the Window."  Further, there is no lighning and thunder, as in
> "Creeping and Crawling."  Again, in "A Maid, I dare" the man has
> trouble getting in, stumbles over a cradle and trundle (or some
> such), and when he finally starts coitus he has it first "just a
> little too high," then "just a little too low," then "O there, O
> there, O there, O there."  None of those events are in "Creeping and
> Crawling."
>
> It looks to me like a typical case where both sides could be right.
> "A Maid, I dare" is a plausible "original," but perhaps not the only
> "original" contributing to "Creeping and Crawling," or perhaps the
> latter is the result of one or more recompositions of "A Maid, I
> dare."
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]As Legman notes, there is no title for "A Maid, I dare not tell her
name" in 'The New Academy of Complements', 1669, and I can't see that
the 'Snoring Maid' title appeared before it's use for #1B in
Legman/Randolph, 1992."To high, to low" is a lost song and tune, the tune being cited for a
bawdy ballad of 1663- c 1666 (ZN2537 in my broadside ballad index, text
in Common Muse, #155, and on Bodleian Ballads website), but isn't for
the same meter as "A Maid, I dare not tell her name"Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Martin Hugill
From: tom hall <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:41:46 -0500
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For all those who missed Mystic and cannot make the trek to Kennebunk...Final U.S. Appearance This Tour!
Direct from Songs of Sail 2001 and  The Mystic Sea Music FestivalMARTIN HUGILL
Renowned British Singer of Folk and Sea Songs
Son of the Legendary Shantyman Stan HugillAlso Featuring
BOB WEBB , "King of the Shanty" and TOM HALL, Press Room Patriarch1:30 p.m. -- Sunday, June 17, 2001
Upstairs at The Press Room
77 Daniel Street, Portsmouth, NH
Tickets $5.00 at the door
First Come, First Seated! -- Doors Open at 1:00 P.M.Martin Hugill was brought up with shanties and sea
songs from an early age, being the youngest son of the
late Stan Hugill, last of the shantymen.He has sung with some legendary performers in the
United Kingdom, induding Tony Davis's "Shipmates," and
with the Celtic music band "Sam." He often performs
with his brother Phil Hugill, and has earned acclaim
at festivals in Poland, Germany, France and the United
States.Martin usually accompanies himself on cittern guitar
or on mandolin. He has recently begun to add the sea
songs of Wales, his native country, to his repertoire.
When not singing songs of the sea, he performs in a
ceilidh band around the borders of England and Wales.His father, Stan Hugill, was one of the most important
collectors of the working songs of deepwater mariners
under sail. He was the last man to sing a working
shanty aboard a British square-rigged merchant ship,
in 1929. His principal work, "Shanties from the Seven
Seas," was published in 1961. It has become the "bible"
of modern shanty singers around the world.Martin Hugill currently lives in Shropshire, England.

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 11 Jun 2001 20:32:06 -0700
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Folks:Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.EdOn Mon, 11 Jun 2001, W. B. OLSON wrote:> John Garst wrote:
> >
> > Thanks.  Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
> > Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
> > material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
> > "original" back to a 1669 publication.
> >
> > >My daughter, a rabid Cordelia's Dad fan, tells me she knows from
> > >conversation that they got their version from an unpublished Vance
> > >Randolph collection of risqué material.
> > >
> > >I was amused at seeing this topic come up literally the day after
> > >we'd attended a concert by Cordelia's Dad at Passim in Cambridge,
> > >where they sang this song.
> > >
> > >Mary Stafford
> >
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
>
>
> I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is really the
> 'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling". In general the songs
> follow the same course, but where are any verbal borrowings? There is no
> knife in the early text. The earliest copy of "A Maid, I dare not tell
> her name" is in "The New Academy of Complements", #166, p. 181, Sam
> Speed, London, 1669. Unique copy, Folger Shakespeare Library. A
> reference that Legman got from me. A statement he made later about this
> book makes it clear that he wrote to the Folger Shakespeare Library and
> got several texts from the book, but he never actually saw the book.
>
> Check what Legman says.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.
>

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 08:01:34 -0500
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On 6/11/01, Ed Cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.Legman certainly overreached, and I'm willing to disallow the
1669 claim (note that the Ballad Index doesn't buy it). But
"A-Creeping" is certainly the same song as "The Knife in the
Window." "Knife," what's more, is British; see Kennedy (#178).
Now Kennedy overreaches, too, and I've stopped trusting his
bibliography. Still, we have a song attested in the Ozarks early
in the twentieth century, and in England in the mid-twentieth
century. Says to me that the song is pretty old, and English.--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: Creeping and A-Crawling
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:39:37 -0400
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Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> On 6/11/01, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> >Folks:
> >
> >Bruce makes a good point.  Legman often overreached.
>
> Legman certainly overreached, and I'm willing to disallow the
> 1669 claim (note that the Ballad Index doesn't buy it). But
> "A-Creeping" is certainly the same song as "The Knife in the
> Window." "Knife," what's more, is British; see Kennedy (#178).
> Now Kennedy overreaches, too, and I've stopped trusting his
> bibliography. Still, we have a song attested in the Ozarks early
> in the twentieth century, and in England in the mid-twentieth
> century. Says to me that the song is pretty old, and English.
>
> --'pretty old' is not a number that I can understand.Legman notes that a version of "A Maid, I dare not tell her name"
(which is also in the 1671 edition of 'The New Academy of
Complements') appeared in Maidment's 'Ane Pleasant Garland', c
1835 (thanks to Murray Shoolbraid for a xerox copy of the complete
book), and was reprinted in Farmer's 'Merry Songs', I, p. 279-80
(last song in vol). The title Maidment gave the song was "The
Nameless Maiden". Maidment's source (as for most in his book) was
NLS MS Adv. 19.1.3, where the song appears without title on fol. 40
(as seen on microfilm).John and Edward Phillips were educated by their uncle, secretary of
the long parliment, and sometime poet, John Milton. John's poetry
was limited to pieces for drolleries and broadside ballads, most
of which were poetically excellant. One of his broadside ballads is
"The Merchant and the Fiddler's Wife", probably first published by
Richard Burton. Burton entered no ballads in the Stationers'
Register, but the ballad here was transfered, with others
originally published by Burton, to F. Coles, et. al. in July 1678.The ballad being too long for a drollery, a few verses were given,
and the rest summarized in prose in 'Oxford Drollery', 5th ed.
1685. The ballad has long been familiar from a reprint with it's
tune (B391 on my website) in all editions of 'Pills to Purge
Melancholy', and I've heard it sung several times. Ed McCurdy also
recorded a version.Randolph collected three very fragmentary versions in the Ozarks,
and these are given as "The Fidler's Bitch" in Legman/Randolph,
#101, with some of the story given in prose. Legman took the piece
to be a cante fable (of whose origin he knew nothing) and wandered
off into mostly irrelevant comments and ending up at the irrelevant
"Maids when you're young never wed an old man".Legman's 'The Hornbook', 1964, was named after a work of 1899 (tp
facsimile, p. 49). Legman discusses the work at length but really
gets nowhere on who was responsible for the English version. Legman
also discusses John Steven Farmer, and notes that he couldn't trace
Farmer's whereabouts at the end of the 19th century. On p. 26 Legman
had dismissed 'Suburban Souls' as probably a work of fiction. It
wasn't. It's primarily Jacky/ John S.... [Farmer's] autobiography
coverting the period May 1895 to Jan. 1900, from his main base in
Paris. Farmer notes that he had completed the corrections to 'The
Horn Book' for the Rotterdam bookseller Vanderpunk by Dec. 1898, and
had worked on other books of erotica (titles given) for
publication.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Creeping Legman
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:33:21 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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I wrote:>  ...Since I posted my original request, I've had a look at
>  Randolph/Legman, the published version of the "unpublishable"
>  material, and there is a lot of background there, tracing the
>  "original" back to a 1669 publication.Bruce wrote:>  I seriously doubt that "A maid, I dare not tell her name" is
>  really the 'original' of the song "Creeping and Crawling...>  Check what Legman says.I have now checked Legman.  He wrote:"The true original of all these strains (except 'Locks and Bolts') is
'The Snoring Maid,' in The New Academy of Complements (London, 1669)
pp. 181-2, Song 166, without title, in six double stanzas...."I presume that "all these strains" refers to those mentioned in the
paragraph just above the quotation, "Pretty Polly" (Randolph/Legman),
"Tardy Wooer," "Snoring Maid" (Randolph/Legman, Mr. C. I.), "Creepin'
an' a-Crawlin'."Some points for and against Legman's "original" have been given here
previously.  I now noted that all of Randolph's versions, except one,
include the lines "She snored an' replied..." and the one exception
has "She snorted and cried..."  Further "The Snoring Maid" was Mr. C.
I.'s title, which he heard "back in 1889," so Legman did not
originate it."Creeping and Crawling" looks like a recomposition of "A Maid, I
dare" and in that sense, the latter could be an "original."  What
they share is a two-part formula.  (1) The man meets an obstacle, the
woman provides a solution.  (2) She gives the solution in the line
"She snored (snorted, smiled, etc.) and said...."  These elements are
shared by "C&C" and "Maid."  The obstacles are not.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:44:38 -0400
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I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
(Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."Be that as it may, I have a more general question.Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
his/her own "goodnight"?It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
hacks for timely selling as broadsides.Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
penalty.Thanks.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 17:54:54 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
> (Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
> jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
> experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
> The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."
>
> Be that as it may, I have a more general question.
>
> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?
>
> It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
> hacks for timely selling as broadsides.
>
> Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
> his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
> penalty.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
website.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 12 Jun 2001 18:00:19 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I have stumbled across the owner of a handwritten "ballet," "Batson"
> (Laws I 10), almost certainly from the time when Ed Batson was
> jailed, awaiting hanging, 1903.  The owner is now having handwriting
> experts compare the "ballet" with authentic samples of Batson's hand.
> The owner thinks that Ed Batson himself might have authored "Batson."
>
> Be that as it may, I have a more general question.
>
> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?
>
> It is my impression that these were mostly written by professional
> hacks for timely selling as broadsides.
>
> Did Frankie Silver write hers?  I think Willis Maybury (sp?) wrote
> his own ballad, but he was a long-term prisoner, not under death
> penalty.
>
> Thanks.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
Murderer."Bruce Olson
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Creeping Legman
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:28:03 -0400
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I note that Legman, 'The Hornbook', p.  368, 1964, said that the
manuscript from which Maidment extracted the songs for 'Ane
Pleasant Garland' could no longer be found in the Advocates
Library, now part of NLS. He couldn't have looked very hard.Incidently, the microfilm copy of the manuscript in which I ran
across the songs in 'Ane Pleasant Garland', NLS MS Adv. 19.1.13,
came from Harvester Microfilm, now Primary Source Microfilm
(which has a website).Also, Legman's wild imagination found some connection of "A Creeping and
a crawling) with a version of "Locks and Bolts do Hinder". The latter is
well known, and has a long history, and descends from a broadside ballad
of September, 1631, (and was doubtlessly reworked older material closely
related to Earl Brand/ Childe of Elle/ Masterpiece of Love Songs/ Bold
Soldier/ Seaman's Renown) listed with Laws and Roud numbers (M13 and
#406) at ZN3202 in the broadside ballad index on my website. I can see
no connection at all between it and "A creeping and a crawling".Bruce Olson--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:37:30 -0400
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At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:>John Garst wrote:
>...
>  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
>  > his/her own "goodnight"?
>...>Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
>website.and>Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
>"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
>Murderer."What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:05:03 -0400
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Well, in more recent years, Bonnie Parker (of Bonnie and Clyde fame) wrote a
Ballad of Bonnie and Clyde. And on a personal experience note, I was down in
Kentucky with Margo Mayo when she was collecting "Farewell to Sweet Beaver",
reportedly composed by one Mart Hayes shortly before his colorful execution
(he refused to work on the road gang, so he was placed in a well with a pump
and told to pump or drown--he refused to work). Turns out that it was a
localised re-write of "Prisoner for Life". Does that count?John Garst wrote:> At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >...
> >  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> >  > his/her own "goodnight"?
> >...
>
> >Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
> >website.
>
> and
>
> >Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
> >"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
> >Murderer."
>
> What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 15:59:42 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> At 5:54 PM -0400 6/12/01, W. B. OLSON wrote:
>
> >John Garst wrote:
> >...
> >  > Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> >  > his/her own "goodnight"?
> >...
>
> >Tichborne's 'Elegie', 1586, is in the Scarece Songs 2 file on my
> >website.
>
> and
>
> >Another famous one is in the  Scarce Song 1 file on my website,
> >"Mackpherson's Rant, Or, the last words of of James Mackpherson,
> >Murderer."
>
> What evidence is there that either of these was authored by the condemned?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]On Tichborne's 'Elegie': Morfils' note in 'Ballads from
Manuscripts', II, xxiii, 1873, reads:Many MSS. exist of this interesting and undoubtably genuine
composition, ....To the best of my knowledge the handwriting in these manuscripts
has not been compared to that in the letter which Tichborne wrote
to his wife that same night, which he signed 'Chideock
Tichebourne'.Mackpherson remained defiant until the end and it seems to me
this is more realistic than the pious, repentant verses that
ballad writers put in the mouth of the condemned."Et tu Brutus" seems to me to ring true, though  not very
inspired.Two of four accounts of the execution of a condemned criminal c
30-35 CE report his last words were "My God, my God, why hast
thou forsaken me". This seems to me to be totally out of
character for the man the four accounts portray, and I take it to
be pure fiction.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:30:09 -0400
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>Well, in more recent years, Bonnie Parker (of Bonnie and Clyde fame) wrote a
>Ballad of Bonnie and Clyde. And on a personal experience note, I was down in
>Kentucky with Margo Mayo when she was collecting "Farewell to Sweet Beaver",
>reportedly composed by one Mart Hayes shortly before his colorful execution
>(he refused to work on the road gang, so he was placed in a well with a pump
>and told to pump or drown--he refused to work). Turns out that it was a
>localised re-write of "Prisoner for Life". Does that count?Ugh!  Was he insane or retarded?Sounds like the Hayes ballad simply fits the usual pattern of "said
to" have been written by the dying person.  Perhaps there's better
documentation for Bonnie and Clyde?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Martin Hugill
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:18:06 -0400
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Sorry, Tom... family weekend this time around.  Thanks for the fun on 6/1All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: tom hall <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 7:41 PM
Subject: Martin Hugill> For all those who missed Mystic and cannot make the trek to Kennebunk...
>
>
> Final U.S. Appearance This Tour!
> Direct from Songs of Sail 2001 and  The Mystic Sea Music Festival
>
> MARTIN HUGILL
> Renowned British Singer of Folk and Sea Songs
> Son of the Legendary Shantyman Stan Hugill
>
> Also Featuring
> BOB WEBB , "King of the Shanty" and TOM HALL, Press Room Patriarch
>
> 1:30 p.m. -- Sunday, June 17, 2001
> Upstairs at The Press Room
> 77 Daniel Street, Portsmouth, NH
> Tickets $5.00 at the door
> First Come, First Seated! -- Doors Open at 1:00 P.M.
>
> Martin Hugill was brought up with shanties and sea
> songs from an early age, being the youngest son of the
> late Stan Hugill, last of the shantymen.
>
> He has sung with some legendary performers in the
> United Kingdom, induding Tony Davis's "Shipmates," and
> with the Celtic music band "Sam." He often performs
> with his brother Phil Hugill, and has earned acclaim
> at festivals in Poland, Germany, France and the United
> States.
>
> Martin usually accompanies himself on cittern guitar
> or on mandolin. He has recently begun to add the sea
> songs of Wales, his native country, to his repertoire.
> When not singing songs of the sea, he performs in a
> ceilidh band around the borders of England and Wales.
>
> His father, Stan Hugill, was one of the most important
> collectors of the working songs of deepwater mariners
> under sail. He was the last man to sing a working
> shanty aboard a British square-rigged merchant ship,
> in 1929. His principal work, "Shanties from the Seven
> Seas," was published in 1961. It has become the "bible"
> of modern shanty singers around the world.
>
> Martin Hugill currently lives in Shropshire, England.

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Subject: Batson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:31:07 -0400
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A new book about Louisiana justice, treating the case of Albert Edwin
Batson (Laws I 10), is hoped to be published within the year,
according to the author.  Batson was hanged, perhaps unjustly, for
the 1902 murders, by shotgun and knife, of L. S. Earll, his wife, and
four of their children, two of whom were school children, in a rural
area near Welsh, LA, which is near Lake Charles.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 14 Jun 2001 21:35:34 +0100
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?Jose Rizal, the hero of Philippine nationalism:http://www.univie.ac.at/Voelkerkunde/apsis/aufi/jorizal.htmI had the notion in my head that Pir Sultan Abdal did as well, but
if so I can't find it in a quick scan of his collected poems.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 12:12:02 +0100
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?One I forgot about in my last message, which suggests that the genre may
be older: Francois Villon's final epigram, which is quite similar in its
attitude to Macpherson's Farewell.=================== <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/> ===================

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Subject: Batson versions?
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:17:19 -0400
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I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
(Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
(no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
of this murder ballad?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Batson versions?
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:53:43 -0400
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John Garst wrote:
>
> I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
> (Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
> copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
> I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
> (no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
> of this murder ballad?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]G. M. Laws, Jr, 'Native American Balladry', I 10, lists only Lomax's
version and parts of two fragments collected by R. W. Gordon.Bruce Olson--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Batson versions?
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:08:15 -0700
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No, John, I think that's it.
Norm----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 8:17 AM
Subject: Batson versions?> I'm aware of "Batson" only from the Lomax recording of Wilson Jones
> (Stavin' Chain) in 1934 (published in Our Singing Country and widely
> copied at sites like DT) and three odd verses in RW Gordon's papers.
> I've enquired at the LC whether their archives contain other versions
> (no reply yet).  Does anyone out there know of any other collections
> of this murder ballad?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Sandy Ives <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:55:55 -0400
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Looking at this thing through the other end of the telescope, there need
be no question that Joe Scott wrote BENJAMIN DEANE  (Laws  F32), yet I was
often assured that Deane had written it himself from prison.  Most of
those doing the assuring were people who knew about the ballad, but even a
couple of men who sang  good versions of it made that claim. Of course, a
good half the versions I collected were from people who had no idea who
wrote it--and cared less.  So it goes.
Sandy Ives

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: [unmask]
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Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 10:01:15 EDT
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John Garst wrote:
>...
>   Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
>  his/her own "goodnight"?
****************************
It's not authenticated at all, but Appalachian tradition has it that a bad
man named Callahan made up  a fiddle tune while waiting on the gallows.  The
story says that Callahan was stood on the seat of a wagon with the noose
around his neck, and asked for his fiddle.  He played a complex tune, then
offered the fiddle to any bystander who could play it.  When no one took him
up on his offer, he said "Hell!  This world ain't worth living in anyway!"
and broke his fiddle over the rump of the mule hitched to the wagon, causing
the mule to move forward and leaving Callahan hanging by the neck.  The tune
is well known, and many fiddlers are able to play it well.  It's usually
called  "The Last of Callahan."  The story may be simply an embellishment of
"MacPherson's Farewell."

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Barry O'Neill <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:46:35 -0700
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I wasn't there at the time to verify it, but I'd nominate Joe Hill's Will
as a goodnight song.  It was supposed to have been passed to a prison guard
before his execution.Barry O'Neill

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:11:44 -0700
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And as long as we are on the subject of American martyrs, there is Nicolo
Sacco's letter --EdOn Sat, 16 Jun 2001, Barry O'Neill wrote:> I wasn't there at the time to verify it, but I'd nominate Joe Hill's Will
> as a goodnight song.  It was supposed to have been passed to a prison guard
> before his execution.
>
> Barry O'Neill
>

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Subject: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 18 Jun 2001 23:17:44 -0400
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My apologies because this is not a ballad but a lyric song that turns up
with relatively little variation in many, many Irish and Irish-American
songbooks of the 19th century, early to late I believe.  Surprisingly, I can
think of hardly anyone singing it today.Does anyone have a keen idea of the age and/or origin of The Boys of
Kilkenny.  Thanks in advance.All the best,
Dan Milner

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:12:09 -0400
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Dan Milner wrote:
>
> My apologies because this is not a ballad but a lyric song that turns up
> with relatively little variation in many, many Irish and Irish-American
> songbooks of the 19th century, early to late I believe.  Surprisingly, I can
> think of hardly anyone singing it today.
>
> Does anyone have a keen idea of the age and/or origin of The Boys of
> Kilkenny.  Thanks in advance.
>
> All the best,
> Dan MilnerSong and tune from what has been taken to be the original publication is
in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website, as are other earlier, closely
related songs.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: [unmask]
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 06:17:18 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:10:34 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> Dan Milner asks about this and Bruce refers him to his very useful
> scarce
> songs web-site. This allies The Boys of Kilkenny with all sort of
> songs
> including Bonnie Portmore. While there is no doubt that some of the
> songs
> given are closely associated, there are still some missing links and
> I'm not
> sure that this group of songs is fully integrated.
> .
> John MouldenSome additional information on related songs is in a thread "Origins of
Bonny Portmore" on the Mudcat Forum (do forum search), where John
pointed out "The Strands of Magilligan" as another related song.Traditional versions of "Bonny Udney" are in the Greig-Duncan Folk Song
Collection, VI, #1089.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:15:27 -0400
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Thank you, gentlemen.  Do you happen to know where Michael Kelly's print
shop was?  For the hell of it, I wonder whether it was in... Kilkenny.All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: W. B. OLSON <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny> [unmask] wrote:
> >
> > Dan Milner asks about this and Bruce refers him to his very useful
> > scarce
> > songs web-site. This allies The Boys of Kilkenny with all sort of
> > songs
> > including Bonnie Portmore. While there is no doubt that some of the
> > songs
> > given are closely associated, there are still some missing links and
> > I'm not
> > sure that this group of songs is fully integrated.
> > .
> > John Moulden
>
> Some additional information on related songs is in a thread "Origins of
> Bonny Portmore" on the Mudcat Forum (do forum search), where John
> pointed out "The Strands of Magilligan" as another related song.
>
> Traditional versions of "Bonny Udney" are in the Greig-Duncan Folk Song
> Collection, VI, #1089.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: [unmask]
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:31:01 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:45:53 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/19/2001 2:11:55 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      Thank you, gentlemen.  Do you happen to know where Michael
>      Kelly's print
>      shop was?  For the hell of it, I wonder whether it was in...
>      Kilkenny.
>
> Rober Munter: A Dictionary of the Print Trade in Ireland 1550-1775 New
> York
> (Forham University Press) 1988 which combines and augments the earlier
>
> dictionaries and articles by Dix, O Casaide, Crosslé and many others
> has no
> entry for a Michael Kelly or for any Kelly printing or associated with
>
> printing in Ireland except an Ignatius and a Mrs. The latter was
> Ignatius'
> widow and the printed in Mary Lane, Dublin.
>
> This is merely negative information. However, as you know, I'm
> investigating
> this area and hope that much of use will emerge.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> john MouldenRoger Fiske, 'English Theatre Music in the 18th Century', 2nd ep. p. 630
say Kelly's wine and print shop were in Pall Mall (London). My
recollection is that they were near a theatre that he managed- See Kelly
in New Grove's Dictionary.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:57:34 -0400
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There are 4 copies of "The Boys of Kilkenny" listed on the Levy
collection website, but not Michael Kelly's issue. There are also
several songs there, the tunes of which were 'composed' by Kelly.
Kelly never learned to read music, so he hummed the tunes for his
songs and opera scores, and someone else noted them down.Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Fwd: G. Legman
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:57:27 -0600
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This request appeared on PUBLORE this morning, and since Legman was
recently discussed on BALLAD-L, I thought some of you might have
material to share.  Please respond directly to Susan Davis
([unmask])Cheers
JamiePerhaps this is not the public folklorists' preserve, but for a short
article on Gerhson Legman, I'd love to receive reminiscences, horror
stories, citations, leads, and of course, folklore.thanks sincerelySusan Davis

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Subject: Re: Fwd: G. Legman
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:29:40 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> This request appeared on PUBLORE this morning, and since Legman was
> recently discussed on BALLAD-L, I thought some of you might have
> material to share.  Please respond directly to Susan Davis
> ([unmask])
>
> Cheers
> Jamie
>
> Perhaps this is not the public folklorists' preserve, but for a short
> article on Gerhson Legman, I'd love to receive reminiscences, horror
> stories, citations, leads, and of course, folklore.
>
> thanks sincerely
>
> Susan DavisI disposed of my correspondance with Legman several years ago. I never
met him. Perhaps Murray Shoolbraid has saved some of his.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: [unmask]
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Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:05:31 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:03:54 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> Anent Michael Kelly of whom Bruce Olsen stated quoting Roger Fiske
> that Kelly
> never learned to read music.
>
> There is grave doubt over the accuracy of this comment:
> WT Parke: Musical Memoirs (London, 1830) says that Kelly had little
> knowledge
> of harmony and had admitted to him in 1803 that he "Merely wrote the
> melodies
> and that the old Italian Mazzanti, did the rest" He also quotes a
> story told
> by Samuel Arnold that Kelly had come to him, after having written
> several
> operas, and enquired how long it would take to learn thorough-bass.
> David Baptie: A handbook of musical biography (London, 1883) decribed
> him as
> "far from being a profound harmonist" but "possessed the gift of
> melody to a
> great degree"
>
> Among other matters I understand that Mozart for whom he sang in the
> first
> performance of Il Nozze di Figaro, encouraged his composition.
>
> Clearly song airs were well within his ability - and to write them
> himself -
> and these needed no harmony.
>
> John MouldenI cannot now remember where I picked up the informtion that Kelly
hummed the tunes and someone else noted them down.New Grove's Dictionary, 1980 merely quotes Thomas Moore (1801)
as saying: "Poor Mick is rather an imposer than composer. He cannot
make the time in writing three bars of music: his understrappers,
however, do all this for him."Bruce OLSON
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:56:43 -0400
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Thank you for your helpful comments.  One more question please.  WT Parke -
did he operate in England or Ireland?  That information might indicate -
though not prove - where Kelly's print shop was.All the best,
Dan----- Original Message -----
From: W. B. OLSON <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny> [unmask] wrote:
> >
> > Anent Michael Kelly of whom Bruce Olsen stated quoting Roger Fiske
> > that Kelly
> > never learned to read music.
> >
> > There is grave doubt over the accuracy of this comment:
> > WT Parke: Musical Memoirs (London, 1830) says that Kelly had little
> > knowledge
> > of harmony and had admitted to him in 1803 that he "Merely wrote the
> > melodies
> > and that the old Italian Mazzanti, did the rest" He also quotes a
> > story told
> > by Samuel Arnold that Kelly had come to him, after having written
> > several
> > operas, and enquired how long it would take to learn thorough-bass.
> > David Baptie: A handbook of musical biography (London, 1883) decribed
> > him as
> > "far from being a profound harmonist" but "possessed the gift of
> > melody to a
> > great degree"
> >
> > Among other matters I understand that Mozart for whom he sang in the
> > first
> > performance of Il Nozze di Figaro, encouraged his composition.
> >
> > Clearly song airs were well within his ability - and to write them
> > himself -
> > and these needed no harmony.
> >
> > John Moulden
>
>
> I cannot now remember where I picked up the informtion that Kelly
> hummed the tunes and someone else noted them down.
>
> New Grove's Dictionary, 1980 merely quotes Thomas Moore (1801)
> as saying: "Poor Mick is rather an imposer than composer. He cannot
> make the time in writing three bars of music: his understrappers,
> however, do all this for him."
>
> Bruce OLSON
> --
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Batson surprise
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:21:52 -0400
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Continuing to look through the microfilm copies of Robert W. Gordon's
mss papers at the Library of Congress (I'm now 3/4 way through), I
got a surprise.  Laws, under Batson, I 10, cites only Lomax, Our
Singing Country (from LC Record 95 A and B), and "Gordon, 45, parts
of two fragments."  I recently posted here wondering whether or not
this was "it" (except for the handwritten "ballet" that I've located
recently, which may be in Ed Batson's own hand).The surprise was Gordon 3759, consisting of a letter to Gordon from
S. H. Jones, Assistant District Attorney, 14th Judicial District of
Louisiana, dated December 20, 1929, Lake Charles, LA, and two
accompanying sheets on which 11 verses of a coherent version of the
ballad are typed, as "dictated by an old negro of this city who sang
them."  Jones explains that Gordon's letter of February 9, 1927,
addressed to Mr. Robert Mouton, Lafayette, Louisiana, "somehow came
to my attention," so he (Jones) is providing information in response.
That's nearly a three year delay in a response.Somehow Laws must have overlooked this item.  I think that it is an
important one.  That now gives three substantial versions of the song
for comparison with one another and the actual facts of the case.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: [unmask]
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Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:46:29 EDT
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Subject: Re: The Boys of Kilkenny
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:32:59 -0400
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[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/21/2001 8:31:44 PM GMT Daylight Time,
> [unmask] writes:
>
>      That information might indicate -
>      though not prove - where Kelly's print shop was
>
> There's no doubt that Michael Kelly's shop was in Pall Mall in London.
>
> John MouldenAt 9 Pall Mall Street. See text in my Scarce Songs 1 file, now with
complete heading and publisher's imprint.Bruce Olson
--
Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Missing Link Found
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:06:07 -0400
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Not Darwin's missing link, they abound.  This one is the only one I
know of of its type.As "Frankie" usually comes to us, it begins something like (from memory):Frankie was a good girl,
As everybody knows,
She spent (an exaggerated sum that might originally have been less)
For Albert a suit of clothes,
   He was her man,
   Her gamblin' man.This is good and symmetric.  The two characters are treated alike, in
that both are known by their first names only.  However, the victim's
first name was "Allen," not "Albert" - he was Allen Britt.  Allen was
called "Al" (there is testimony on this from Frankie herself - thus,
he was known as "Al Britt."  When passed along a few times, this
surely would become the "Albert," as in recovered versions.  But
would a song include Britt's last name and not Frankie's?  I don't
think so.  I imagined that the earliest versions of the ballad spoke
of "Frankie Baker" and "Al Britt."Indeed, "Frankie Baker" has long been in widespread use in North
Carolina (why there especially?) as the title of the song.  In vain I
have looked for *verses* that name "Frankie Baker."  There is no such
in Bruce Buckley's dissertation, "Frankie and Her Men," which treats
200 versions and fragments (Buckley's count).  However, in looking
through Robert Winslow Gordon's papers, in his "North Carolina
Collection," p 186, I found a fragment ("Frankie Baker," Mrs. H. A.
Barrier, State Hospital, Morgantown, N.C., December 4, 1925, Record
A-128) that opens as follows.Frankie Baker was a good girl
As everybody knows;
She paid a hundred dollar bill
For a suit of little Albert's clothes.
   'Twas all because
   She loved him so.There it is, the missing link.  Regressing "Albert" to "Al Britt," we
would have a version that gives the full names of each party (and, of
course, Alice Pryor is always given a full name, even if it's the
wrong one, "Alice Pry," "Alice Fry," "Nellie Bly," etc.)Why, then was "Baker" dropped from the body of the song.  For
symmetry, I think.  After the man became "Albert," giving Frankie a
last name made an unbalanced song.  It may also be that "Frankie was
a good girl" sings better than "Frankie Baker was a good girl."--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 12:20:44 -0700
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Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her full
first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973).  It's curious that
other early versions that have the full name in the title, "Frankie Baker"
(i.e., Ernest Thompson, 1924, and Emry Arthur, 1929) never mention her last
name in the text.
Norm Cohen
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2001 12:06 PM
Subject: Missing Link Found> Not Darwin's missing link, they abound.  This one is the only one I
> know of of its type.
>
> As "Frankie" usually comes to us, it begins something like (from memory):
>
> Frankie was a good girl,
> As everybody knows,
> She spent (an exaggerated sum that might originally have been less)
> For Albert a suit of clothes,
>    He was her man,
>    Her gamblin' man.
>
> This is good and symmetric.  The two characters are treated alike, in
> that both are known by their first names only.  However, the victim's
> first name was "Allen," not "Albert" - he was Allen Britt.  Allen was
> called "Al" (there is testimony on this from Frankie herself - thus,
> he was known as "Al Britt."  When passed along a few times, this
> surely would become the "Albert," as in recovered versions.  But
> would a song include Britt's last name and not Frankie's?  I don't
> think so.  I imagined that the earliest versions of the ballad spoke
> of "Frankie Baker" and "Al Britt."
>
> Indeed, "Frankie Baker" has long been in widespread use in North
> Carolina (why there especially?) as the title of the song.  In vain I
> have looked for *verses* that name "Frankie Baker."  There is no such
> in Bruce Buckley's dissertation, "Frankie and Her Men," which treats
> 200 versions and fragments (Buckley's count).  However, in looking
> through Robert Winslow Gordon's papers, in his "North Carolina
> Collection," p 186, I found a fragment ("Frankie Baker," Mrs. H. A.
> Barrier, State Hospital, Morgantown, N.C., December 4, 1925, Record
> A-128) that opens as follows.
>
> Frankie Baker was a good girl
> As everybody knows;
> She paid a hundred dollar bill
> For a suit of little Albert's clothes.
>    'Twas all because
>    She loved him so.
>
> There it is, the missing link.  Regressing "Albert" to "Al Britt," we
> would have a version that gives the full names of each party (and, of
> course, Alice Pryor is always given a full name, even if it's the
> wrong one, "Alice Pry," "Alice Fry," "Nellie Bly," etc.)
>
> Why, then was "Baker" dropped from the body of the song.  For
> symmetry, I think.  After the man became "Albert," giving Frankie a
> last name made an unbalanced song.  It may also be that "Frankie was
> a good girl" sings better than "Frankie Baker was a good girl."
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:41:34 -0400
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>Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her full
>first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 25 Jun 2001 17:25:15 -0700
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I did listen to it with that in mind (for another purpose I had recently put
all the versions I have--about 80--on 4 CDs), and I'm reasonably sure he
says Albert, not Al Britt (but that is a pretty tough call).    However,
interestingly, Roba Stanley (1924) calls him Alvin (several times).
NC----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:41 PM
Subject: Re: Missing Link Found> >Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her
full
> >first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....
>
> Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
> noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
> other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
> My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
> that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
> were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
> Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
> altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
> around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Goodnight
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:58:41 -0500
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> Are there any authenticated examples of a condemned person writing
> his/her own "goodnight"?Joseph Hilstrom, aka the labor song writer Joe Hill, wrote his own farewell
on the night before he was shot by a Utah firing squad.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: EBU
From: Andy Rouse <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 30 Jun 2001 22:42:54 +0200
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Hi there everyone. If any of you can receive a frequency of the European
Broadcasting Union, then you might like to tune in from July 6-July 8 to
hear live folk and folk-related (an intentionally fuzzy description)
music from the ruins of Diosgyor Castle, Hungary, at the Kaláka Festival
- the biggest Hungarian one of its kind - which this year is sharing its
venue with the EBU. And if you're interested in what Yours Truly does
when he's not doing the university thing, then wiggle your cat's whisker
at around 8pm CET (central European time) on July 6!Andy

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Subject: Re: EBU
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:11:00 -0700
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On Sat, 30 Jun 2001, Andy Rouse wrote:> Hi there everyone. If any of you can receive a frequency of the European
> Broadcasting Union, then you might like to tune in from July 6-July 8 to
> hear live folk and folk-related (an intentionally fuzzy description)
> music from the ruins of Diosgyor Castle, Hungary, at the Kaláka Festival
> - the biggest Hungarian one of its kind - which this year is sharing its
> venue with the EBU. And if you're interested in what Yours Truly does
> when he's not doing the university thing, then wiggle your cat's whisker
> at around 8pm CET (central European time) on July 6!
>
Andy:My copper-wire-on-toilet-paper coil got crushed by the dog so I will miss
your broadcast.  Good luck anyway.EdP.S.  Got good reception too.  All the way to Bakersfield from Santa
Monica.

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Subject: Trivia
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:01:00 -0400
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In Bruce A. Rosenberg's checklist of the Virginia WPA collection of
folksongs, 'The Folksongs of Virginia' there is one collected by
Raymond Sloan from an informant at Whitetop Mountain, VA, in
1939, #334 A, "The Dying Cowboy". Sloan had collected several
songs from some singers he had located, but only this one from
this singer, a Dr. Robert Winslow Gordon. [former 1st head of
Library of Congress Folklore Archive]Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:09:07 -0400
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Thanks, Norm.  I've been away baby-sitting, a pleasure when you have
a 2-2/3-year-old granddaughter who is a genius, of course, and who
will no doubt be a Miss America as well a President.Buckley lists Albert (88 versions) and Johnny (111) as dominating,
but he cites versions with Alvin, Alfred, Alfie (Australian, I
think), Archie, Corney (probably from a confusion or mixture with
"Delia," i.e., "Cooney and Delia"), Pauly, Pearl, Iva, Henry, Walter,
and Frankie (in a few versions where Johnnie is the woman).
(Buckley, Frankie and Her Men, p 44)>I did listen to it with that in mind (for another purpose I had recently put
>all the versions I have--about 80--on 4 CDs), and I'm reasonably sure he
>says Albert, not Al Britt (but that is a pretty tough call).    However,
>interestingly, Roba Stanley (1924) calls him Alvin (several times).
>NC
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:41 PM
>Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
>
>
>>  >Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her
>full
>>  >first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....
>>
>>  Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
>>  noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
>>  other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
>>  My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
>>  that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
>>  were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
>>  Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
>>  altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
>>  around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.
>>
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]
>>--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Trivia
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:54:13 -0700
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Bruce:Droll.EdOn Sun, 1 Jul 2001, W. B. OLSON wrote:> In Bruce A. Rosenberg's checklist of the Virginia WPA collection of
> folksongs, 'The Folksongs of Virginia' there is one collected by
> Raymond Sloan from an informant at Whitetop Mountain, VA, in
> 1939, #334 A, "The Dying Cowboy". Sloan had collected several
> songs from some singers he had located, but only this one from
> this singer, a Dr. Robert Winslow Gordon. [former 1st head of
> Library of Congress Folklore Archive]
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.
>

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Subject: Child on eBay
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:19:51 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Should anyone need to complete a set (or start one) vol.4 of the
Dover paperback Child is up on eBay with a starting bid of $29.99. No
takers so far.John Roberts.

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Subject: who was Bauldie Scrimezour?
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:21:40 +0100
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This comes from A Collection of Twenty-Four Scots Songs (1796) by
John Hamilton (NLS Glen.311).  Hamilton says that the source couldn't
remember anything past somewhere in the third verse (presumably the
first six lines), the rest being completed in a generic ballad-by-
numbers manner (well, at least he realized what he'd done and told us).He mentions Scrimezour as if we were all supposed to know who he was.
Does anybody?This doesn't have a lot to do with any of the more familiar Frenet Ha'
ballads, does it?Original spelling unedited.X:1
T:Frenet Ha'
C:Bauldie Scrimezour
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:GMin
"Slow & Moving"
(D^F)|G2  G2  A  c| d4      (d/=e/f)|(dc) (BA) G  c|({B}A4)
(G^F)|G2 (GA) B> c| d4      (d/=e/f)|(dc) (BA) G ^F|    G4||
(d>f)|g2  g2  a> g|(f>d) d2 (d/=e/f)|(dc) (BA) G> c|({B}A4)
(G^F)|G2 (GA) B> c| d2   d2 (d/=e/f)|(dc) (BA) G ^F|    G4|]Quhair wile I lay my hede,
Quhair lay my bodie doune,
Qhairfor na am I died,
Sen' wandrin' I bene bown;
O! Marie ze war fairer
than ony goud or gear;
O! bot my hert is sairer
than't has bene mony zeir.O! blythsom was the wi time,
That I hae spent wi thee,
Aft kiss't that cheik o' thyne,
As ze sat on my knee.
But cauld's thy bodie now Marie,
O! dull thy blinkin' E'e,
Quhairfor do I here tarry,
An' canna win to thee.He sat doune on a stane,
His hame was far awa;
He sicht an' made a mane,
An sicht O! Frenet Ha'.
Syne drew his schairp Sword frae its shethe,
It gleitert wi' the Sun,
An ay he cry'd dear Mary,
My Love to thee I come.(2 more verses added by editor).-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music

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Subject: Re: Child on eBay
From: Linn Schulz <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:59:15 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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--- John Roberts <[unmask]> wrote:
> Should anyone need to complete a set (or start one)
> vol.4 of the
> Dover paperback Child is up on eBay with a starting
> bid of $29.99. No takers so far.Figures -- we need volume 3 of the Dover trade paper
edition to complete our set.Linn__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Subject: Communal Composition
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:44:03 -0400
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Somehow this,"Written and sung during the Women's CRW world record attempts.
mainly by Audrey Alexander, Cheryl Michaels, Wendy Faulkner and Karen Young,"which can be found at
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/faculty/Faulkner/songs/crw/cancan.html ,reminded me of the "communal composition" wars, about which I've read
a little, but a very little, and have remained mystified.Can someone summarize the main positions, arguments, and ultimate
resolution for me?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Communal Composition
From: Sandy Ives <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:00:27 -0400
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Communal composition is indeed mystifying, even goofy sometimes, and
no-one had more fun explaining all this than D.K. Wilgus in his
ANGLO-AMERICAN FOLKSONG SCHOLARSHIP (PP.3-122).  A romp through those two
chapters will tell you much more than you want to know, but you'll never
be sorry for the time spent.Sandy Ives

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Subject: Re: Child on eBay
From: Sandy Paton <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:21:56 -0400
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Hang on, Linn. I think that may be the one volume I have left on my
shelf. I'll get back to you on it.
        Sandy PatonLinn Schulz wrote:> --- John Roberts <[unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Should anyone need to complete a set (or start one)
>> vol.4 of the
>> Dover paperback Child is up on eBay with a starting
>> bid of $29.99. No takers so far.
>
>
> Figures -- we need volume 3 of the Dover trade paper
> edition to complete our set.
>
> Linn
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Subject: Re: who was Bauldie Scrimezour?
From: Nigel Gatherer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:34:26 +0100
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Jack Campin wrote:> He mentions Scrimezour as if we were all supposed to know who he was.
> Does anybody?I'm pretty sure I've come across his name somewhere before, but I can't
remember off-hand. It'll come back, but I may need to look through some
books, and they're in Edinburgh. It's possible he's mention in one of
the Glasgow Poet's Box broadsides, or perhaps in the Whistlebinkie
collection - I'll have a look and report back.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Happy woody Guthrie's birthday
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:02:15 -0500
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Tomorrow, Saturday, July 14th, is Woody Guthrie's birthday.  So, have a
happy one!        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Happy woody Guthrie's birthday
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:06:21 -0700
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Marge:Had he lived, Woody would be 89 tomorrow.EdOn Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Marge Steiner wrote:> Tomorrow, Saturday, July 14th, is Woody Guthrie's birthday.  So, have a
> happy one!
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>

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Subject: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Brent Cantrell <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:09:04 -0400
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Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville will
air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice and
music coach.You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htmBrent Cantrell
Knoxville

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:48:27 -0400
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Brent Cantrell wrote:
>
> Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville will
> air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
> talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice and
> music coach.
>
> You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htmAny comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
love story, but the music was good...-Don Duncan

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 06:12:51 -0700
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Donald:Hokey?  No, but as a film it _is_ slow since the action stops for the
musical selections.  And they are good.  Lovingly sung.Still, the end credits state the story in the film was inspired by,
sparked by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil Sharp.And Janet McAteer is one of the finest actresses working today.  Too bad
her "co-star," Aidan Quinn, is not in her league.EdOn Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Donald A. Duncan wrote:> Brent Cantrell wrote:
> >
> > Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville will
> > air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
> > talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice and
> > music coach.
> >
> > You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htm
>
> Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> love story, but the music was good...
>
> -Don Duncan
>

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:36:53 -0500
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I'd guessed that the film might have been based on either Maude Karpeles or
Olive Dame Campbell.  It's still not playing here, though.  Was there a love
interest between Olive Dame Campbell and Sharp?  Of course, both of them
were married to others.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Ed Cray
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:13 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay AdamsDonald:Hokey?  No, but as a film it _is_ slow since the action stops for the
musical selections.  And they are good.  Lovingly sung.Still, the end credits state the story in the film was inspired by,
sparked by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil Sharp.And Janet McAteer is one of the finest actresses working today.  Too bad
her "co-star," Aidan Quinn, is not in her league.EdOn Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Donald A. Duncan wrote:> Brent Cantrell wrote:
> >
> > Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville
will
> > air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
> > talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice
and
> > music coach.
> >
> > You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htm
>
> Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> love story, but the music was good...
>
> -Don Duncan
>

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:19:24 -0500
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On 7/14/01, Ed Cray wrote:[ ... ]>Still, the end credits state the story in the film was inspired by,
>sparked by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil Sharp.No love triangle with Maud Karpeles? C'mon, this is Hollywood. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Songcatcher and Shiela Kay Adams
From: Bev and Jerry <[unmask]>
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Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:22:13 -0700
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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 14:21:53 -0700
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Marge et al:No, there is no love interest between the characters of "Campbell" and
"Sharp" in the movie.  Their alter egos are together, on screen, only in
the last scenes.EdOn Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Marge Steiner wrote:> I'd guessed that the film might have been based on either Maude Karpeles or
> Olive Dame Campbell.  It's still not playing here, though.  Was there a love
> interest between Olive Dame Campbell and Sharp?  Of course, both of them
> were married to others.
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
> Behalf Of Ed Cray
> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:13 AM
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
>
>
> Donald:
>
> Hokey?  No, but as a film it _is_ slow since the action stops for the
> musical selections.  And they are good.  Lovingly sung.
>
> Still, the end credits state the story in the film was inspired by,
> sparked by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil Sharp.
>
> And Janet McAteer is one of the finest actresses working today.  Too bad
> her "co-star," Aidan Quinn, is not in her league.
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
>
> > Brent Cantrell wrote:
> > >
> > > Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville
> will
> > > air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
> > > talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice
> and
> > > music coach.
> > >
> > > You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htm
> >
> > Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> > who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> > love story, but the music was good...
> >
> > -Don Duncan
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher - a wonderful effort
From: Trad Man <[unmask]>
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Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 18:01:43 EDT
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This movie may be one of the best attempts to bring traditional music to an
ignorant audience since Steel-Eye Span entered the British Rock scene.  It
works very well as a "Hollywood" vehicle.  It has all the required "P.C"
trappings and yet truly captures the concept of Mountain folk as an isolated
and alien culture, which it surely must have been before the days of radio
and public transport.  There are some flaws, but they are minor.  But it is
most definitely fiction, and should not be expected to stand up to any
historical scrutiny.  The music is lovely, and the singing superb.  I would
have liked for more complete song renditions, but then it would not have as
much appeal to a wider audience.

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher - a wonderful effort
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Subject: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: Douglas Cooke <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 22:18:29 -0700
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Hi. I'm working on a Richard Farina webpage, and
I found in the liner notes of a Mimi Farina album
the following comment:
"Dick Farina had a way of plagiarizing that was
not only bold, but also endearingly forgivable.
This beautiful song from Ireland is given new
life through Dick's haunting poetry."So now I would like to know what song Farina
borrowed. Also, if anybody has any info on the
sources of other Farina songs, I'd like to know
about those, too. How does one go about
researching this sort of thing? I would
appreciate any help you can provide.Here is my website so far:
http://www.mindspring.com/~dec20/farina.htmlHere is a list of some of other contemporary
versions of the song:Mimi Fariña: Solo (1985)
Sandy Denny: Who Knows Where the Time Goes
             Sandy (1972)
             No More Sad Refrains
Gene Parsons: Birds of a Feather (1987)
Rachel Faro: Windsong (1994)
Pete Seeger: God Bless the Grass (1998)Thanks again,
Douglas Cooke__________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: [unmask]
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Date:Sun, 15 Jul 2001 05:55:15 EDT
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Douglas Cooke asks for information about a possible Irish inspiration for a Richard Farina song but doesn't quote the song or give a synopsis. I'd like to help but ....John Moulden

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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: Lorne Brown <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 15 Jul 2001 08:13:26 -0400
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I'm pretty sure the tune is the Irish "My Lagan Love".
Lorne Brown
The Ballad Project
TorontoDouglas Cooke wrote:
>
> Hi. I'm working on a Richard Farina webpage, and
> I found in the liner notes of a Mimi Farina album
> the following comment:
> "Dick Farina had a way of plagiarizing that was
> not only bold, but also endearingly forgivable.
> This beautiful song from Ireland is given new
> life through Dick's haunting poetry."
>
> So now I would like to know what song Farina
> borrowed. Also, if anybody has any info on the
> sources of other Farina songs, I'd like to know
> about those, too. How does one go about
> researching this sort of thing? I would
> appreciate any help you can provide.
>
> Here is my website so far:
> http://www.mindspring.com/~dec20/farina.html
>
> Here is a list of some of other contemporary
> versions of the song:
>
> Mimi Fariña: Solo (1985)
> Sandy Denny: Who Knows Where the Time Goes
>              Sandy (1972)
>              No More Sad Refrains
> Gene Parsons: Birds of a Feather (1987)
> Rachel Faro: Windsong (1994)
> Pete Seeger: God Bless the Grass (1998)
>
> Thanks again,
> Douglas Cooke
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:18:44 EDT
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In a message dated 7/14/01 10:28:43 PM, [unmask] writes:>So now I would like to know what song Farina borrowed. (TUNE TO "QUIET 
JOYS...")
*********************
The song "borrowed"  (I think plagiarism is too strong a term;  Dick never 
pretended that the tune was his own) is the Irish "My Lagan Love,"  which has 
been recorded many times by such peformers as the Makem Brothers, Kate Bush,  
Dennis Doyle, Van Morrison; many of these have created their own words.  The 
tune itself is very old (ca. 500 years) and the traditional words probably 
came later.   A "Google" search for "My Lagan Love" yielded some 3,000 hits, 
many including lyrics.  Typical is the version posted by Tommy Makem, at < 
http//makem.com/discography/recordings/lyricpage/myl > . The tune is perhaps best presented by Pete Seeger, as he plays it on the 
recorder between _a cappella_ stanzas.BTW, your Fariña website is beautiful!Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA USA

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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: Jeri Corlew <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Sun, 15 Jul 2001 09:44:08 -0400
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On Sun, 15 Jul 2001 05:55:15 EDT, you wrote:>Douglas Cooke asks for information about a possible Irish inspiration for a Richard Farina song but doesn't quote the song or give a synopsis. I'd like to help but ....
>
>John Moulden"Words (c) Richard Farina, tune trad, arr by Sandy Denny."
Transcribed from the singing of Sandy Denny on 'Sandy'.
-----------------------
The Quiet Joys of BrotherhoodAs gentle tides go rolling by
A long the salt sea strand
The colors blend and roll as one
Together in the sand
And often do the winds entwine
To send the distant call
The quiet joys of brotherhood
And love is lord of allThe oak and wheat together rise
Along the common ground
The mare and stallion light and dark
Have thunder in their sound
The rainbow sign, the blended flower
Still have my heart enthralled
The quiet joys of brotherhood
And love is lord of allBut man has come to plow the tide
The oak lies on the ground
I hear their fires in the fields
They drive the stallion down
The roses bleed, but light and dark
The winds do seldom call
The running sands recall the time 
When love was lord of all--
Jeri Corlew

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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 15 Jul 2001 10:03:20 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Lorne Brown <[unmask]><<I'm pretty sure the tune is the Irish "My Lagan Love".>>Lorne is right. And while we're looking at other things Farina lifted, his
"A Swallow Song" uses the tune from a Ladino song, "Los Bilbilicos". Oh, and
"Birmingham Sunday" used a variant of "A Week Before Easter".Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 15 Jul 2001 11:22:36 EDT
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Yes, I'd agree - the inspiration is My Lagan Love - but I'd question the extreme age of the tune - I know of no earlier documentation of it than in Herbert Hughes' and Joseph Campbell's "Songs of Uladh" published in Belfast in (I think, I'm away from home and authorities)1904.The tune is traditional - collected by Hughes in Donegal - I think in Kilmacrennan where (I think) it was sung to a song called "The Belfast Maid" - however, there is no doubt that the words are of literary origin being written by Joseph Campbell, then young but later to become a well known if minor poet, best known perhaps for the frequently anthologised and often recited "Mountainy farmer."John Moulden

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
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Date:Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:05:50 -0500
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What a wonderful concert by Sheila Kay!  I wish I'd recorded that!  Is "Live
from Laurel" always folk music?  anyhow, great show!        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Brent Cantrell
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 9:09 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay AdamsSheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville will
air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice and
music coach.You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htmBrent Cantrell
Knoxville

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Subject: [[unmask]: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams]
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 16 Jul 2001 12:31:08 -0700
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I may have mis-sent this to the incorrect list.  It was intended for
a response to Don Duncan's inquiry. -- l----- Forwarded message from Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]> ---Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:07:37 -0700
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
To: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
Cc: Irtrad-L <[unmask]>, Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
In-Reply-To: <[unmask]>; from [unmask] on Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 10:48:27PM -0400On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 10:48:27PM -0400, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
> Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> love story, but the music was good...
        Well, yes, but the scenery is gorgeous too, and the plot is ...
fiction, but a lot of it is okay; though it also brings up some rather
modern 'feminist' and 'progressive' notions.  But it is possible to
enjoy great chunks of it for the characters (e.g., the grandmother/wise
woman) and music and even the unromantic glimpses of the hard life --
the childbirth scene is prolonged and pretty uncomfortable to see.
My opinion.  Both my husband and I want to see it again. -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360----- End forwarded message -----

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Subject: Re: [[unmask]: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams]
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:22:27 -0400
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A warning, though. The so-called "Sountrack" CD has only 3 tracks from the movie. The rest is fairly typical heavily
arranged country music. Pity. Sheila Kay Adams could have done it all herself, and produced something fine.dick greenhausCal & Lani Herrmann wrote:> I may have mis-sent this to the incorrect list.  It was intended for
> a response to Don Duncan's inquiry. -- l
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]> ---
>
> Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 12:07:37 -0700
> From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
> To: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
> Cc: Irtrad-L <[unmask]>, Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
> User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i
> In-Reply-To: <[unmask]>; from [unmask] on Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 10:48:27PM -0400
>
> On Fri, Jul 13, 2001 at 10:48:27PM -0400, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
> > Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> > who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> > love story, but the music was good...
>         Well, yes, but the scenery is gorgeous too, and the plot is ...
> fiction, but a lot of it is okay; though it also brings up some rather
> modern 'feminist' and 'progressive' notions.  But it is possible to
> enjoy great chunks of it for the characters (e.g., the grandmother/wise
> woman) and music and even the unromantic glimpses of the hard life --
> the childbirth scene is prolonged and pretty uncomfortable to see.
> My opinion.  Both my husband and I want to see it again. -- Aloha, Lani
>
> <||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
> <||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----

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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: Douglas Cooke <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 16 Jul 2001 15:15:28 -0700
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Thanks to all who helped with my question about
"The Quiet Joys of Brotherhood." It's nice to see
that there are other Farina fans out there. They
also recorded an instrumental song called "Tommy
Makem Fantasy" which Farina described in his
liner notes as "a breed of Little Beggarman."
There are also notes for some of his other
borrowings as well. Since "Quiet Joys" was
released postumously on the album _Memories_
(1968), Farina did not get a chance to write the
liner notes, so it's possible that he would have
cited the source for "Quiet Joys" if he had
lived. There is also one called "Blood Red Roses"
on that album, which sounds like a sea shanty to
me. How about "Bold Marauder"? Any ideas on that
one?Douglas CookePS: woops, I almost forgot to include the lyrics
again:And it's hi ho hey, I am a bold marauder
And it's hi ho hey, I am the white destroyer
For I will show you silver and gold, and I will
bring you treasure
I will wave a widowing flag, and I will be your
lover
And I will show you grotto and cave and
sacrificial alter
And I will show you blood on the stone and I will
be your mentor
And night will be our darling and fear will be
our nameAnd it's hi ho hey, I am the bold marauder
And it's hi ho hey, I am the white destroyer
For I will take you out by the hand and lead you
to the hunter
And I will show you thunder and steel and I will
be your teacher
And we will dress in helmet and sword and dip our
tongues in slaughter
And we will sing a warrior's song and lift the
praise of murder
And Christ will be our darling and fear will be
our nameAnd it's hi ho hey, I am the bold marauder
And it's hi ho hey, I am the white destroyer
For I will sour the winds on high and I will soil
the river
And I will burn the grain in the field and I will
be your mother
And I will go to ravage and kill and will go to
plunder
And I will take a fury to wife and I will be your
mother
And death will be our darling and fear will be
our name__________________________________________________
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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 17 Jul 2001 00:00:55 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Cooke <[unmask]>< There is also one called "Blood Red Roses"
on that album, which sounds like a sea shanty to
me.>>It is, a traditional one, with a few word changes by Farina.<< How about "Bold Marauder"? Any ideas on that
one?>>As far as I can tell, this is a Farina original, with no traditional
antecedents.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 14 Jul 2001 to 15 Jul 2001 (#2001-117)
From: Brent Cantrell <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:48:09 -0400
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Marge,Glad you liked the broadcast.  Most of the music on "Live at Laurel" is
traditional.  The program is heavy on regional forms including fiddle,
banjo, old-time string bands, bluegrass, ballads, and blues.  We
occasionally include some non-regional traditions like Irish and Cajun.
Every once in a while we will broadcast local (Nashville, Lexington,
Atlanta, Western NC and Va, etc.) popular artists working with
extrapolations of traditions -- Tim O'Brien, for example.Brent Cantrell
Knoxville: -----Original Message-----: Date:    Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:05:50 -0500
: From:    Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
: Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
:
: What a wonderful concert by Sheila Kay!  I wish I'd recorded that!  Is
"Live
: from Laurel" always folk music?  anyhow, great show!
:
:         Marge
:
:
: E-mail: [unmask]

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 14 Jul 2001 to 15 Jul 2001 (#2001-117)
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Wed, 18 Jul 2001 10:04:35 -0500
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I'll have to make "Live at Laurel" part of my weekly listening routine.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Brent Cantrell
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2001 6:48 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 14 Jul 2001 to 15 Jul 2001 (#2001-117)Marge,Glad you liked the broadcast.  Most of the music on "Live at Laurel" is
traditional.  The program is heavy on regional forms including fiddle,
banjo, old-time string bands, bluegrass, ballads, and blues.  We
occasionally include some non-regional traditions like Irish and Cajun.
Every once in a while we will broadcast local (Nashville, Lexington,
Atlanta, Western NC and Va, etc.) popular artists working with
extrapolations of traditions -- Tim O'Brien, for example.Brent Cantrell
Knoxville: -----Original Message-----: Date:    Sun, 15 Jul 2001 19:05:50 -0500
: From:    Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
: Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
:
: What a wonderful concert by Sheila Kay!  I wish I'd recorded that!  Is
"Live
: from Laurel" always folk music?  anyhow, great show!
:
:         Marge
:
:
: E-mail: [unmask]

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Subject: Re: quiet joys of brotherhood
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 18 Jul 2001 17:57:15 EDT
Content-Type:text/plain
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In a message dated 7/16/01 3:15:46 PM, [unmask] writes:>,,,,,an instrumental song called "Tommy
>Makem Fantasy" which Farina described in his
>liner notes as "a breed of Little Beggarman."
****************************************
This widespread tune is often called "Gilderoy", and there are many variants, 
in several of the ecclesiastic modes. Many of them, including Tommy Makem's 
"Johnny Dhu," or "Little Beggarman, are Mixolydian.The name "Gilderoy" is probably a garbled pronunciation of _Giolla Ruadh_, 
Gaelic for "The Red-Haired Boy" -- a song that was very popular in the1600s, 
about a Scottish outlaw named MacGregor.  I haven't heard the Fariña record in question, but there is a well known 
shanty called "Blood Red Roses;"  I think the most widespread version was 
recorded some years ago by  A.L. ("Bert") Lloyd.  A bunch of us sang this 
last Saturday, July 15, as part of the annual Shanty Festival aboard the old 
tall ship _Star of India_ , which is a part of the Maritime Museum of San Di
ego.  The words include:BLOOD-RED ROSESMy boots and clothes are all in pawn,
   Go down, ye blood-red roses, go down.
It's mighty cold around Cape Horn.
   Go down, ye blood-red roses, go down.
       Oh---you pinks and posies,
   Go down, ye blood-red roses, go down.You've got your advance, to sea must go!  
   Go down ETC.
A-chasin' whales through frost and snow.
   Go down  ETC.My old mother wrote to me:
"Dearest son, come home from sea!"But 'round Cape Horn we're bound to go,
For that is where them whale-fish blow.One more haul, and that will do,
For we're the gang to kick her through.I'm sorry, but I don't know a thing about The Brave Marauder.  The words 
sound pretty recent to me....Sam
La Jolla, CA USA

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Subject: the trees they do grow high
From: Douglas Cooke <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 21 Jul 2001 08:05:09 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(84 lines)


Hi, it's me again. I'm interested in the song,
"The Trees They Do Grow High." Joan Baez (second
album, 1961) and Pentangle (Sweet Child, 1968)
both do lovely versions of this song, with very
similar lyrics, except that Joan omits the last
verse, ending poignantly with "death put an end
to his growing," making the narrative as
truncated as the boy's life.  Another small
difference is that Joan sings the father's words,
"He'll make a great lord for you to wait upon,"
while Jacqui McShee of Pentangle sings "He'll be
a man for you when I am dead and gone." I thought
perhaps that Jacqui, recording a few years later,
simply made up the new line to avoid the part
about waiting upon her man, which some might find
offensive.  But looking up the song on Mudcat, I
find that the lyrics "when I am dead and gone"
are given. Mudcat also gives a moderately risque
verse that neither of them sing. The verse fits
thematically, though it changes in mood (to my
ears, at least), and switches to the third
person:And so early in the morning at the dawning of the
day
They went out into the hayfield to have some
sport and play;
And what they did there, she never would declare
But she never more complained of his growing.(This verse is credited to the Penguin Book of
English Folk Songs, William and Lloyd).
Mudcat link:
http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfmstuff=fall99+D+3120336This verse adds a further complication in the
last line, because she had been complaining about
his youth, not his growing--though the entire
song is ambivalent about this. Ostensibly, she
laments that he's too young, yet there's
definitely a voyeuristic theme running through
the song that makes me think she's secretly
attracted to him:Many is the time my true love I've SEEN
Many an hour I have WATCHED him all alone...One day I was LOOKING o'er my father's castle
wall
I SPIED all the boys a-playing at the ball
My own true love was the FLOWER of them all.OK, maybe "flower" isn't terribly
voyeuristic--though the ancient Greeks had a
phrase "anthos gumnasiou" (flower of the
gymnasium) to refer to their favorite boys.Anyway, what I'm really wondering about is a
version by Judy Collins called "My Bonny Boy"
(Judy Collins Concert, 1964).  Is this a later or
earlier version? "My Bonny Boy" has very few of
these references to watching, either because it
was written earlier before that motif accrued to
it, or because a later interpreter either didn't
pick up on it or didn't like it.  Also, the ages
of the characters are different: in "Trees" she
is 24 and he 14, while in "Bonny Boy" she is 21
and he 16, mitigating (pardon the pun) the age
difference and making the song less, well,
pedophilic. So, which version do you think is
earlier? How does one make such a determination?
Is "Bonny Boy" a cleaned-up version? Do songs
generally become more or less bawdy as they go
along?  Any other comments on this beautiful
song?Doug__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 21 Jul 2001 10:37:48 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain(116 lines)


On 7/21/01, Douglas Cooke wrote:>Hi, it's me again. I'm interested in the song,
>"The Trees They Do Grow High." Joan Baez (second
>album, 1961) and Pentangle (Sweet Child, 1968)
>both do lovely versions of this song, with very
>similar lyrics, except that Joan omits the last
>verse, ending poignantly with "death put an end
>to his growing," making the narrative as
>truncated as the boy's life.  Another small
>difference is that Joan sings the father's words,
>"He'll make a great lord for you to wait upon,"
>while Jacqui McShee of Pentangle sings "He'll be
>a man for you when I am dead and gone." I thought
>perhaps that Jacqui, recording a few years later,
>simply made up the new line to avoid the part
>about waiting upon her man, which some might find
>offensive.  But looking up the song on Mudcat, I
>find that the lyrics "when I am dead and gone"
>are given. Mudcat also gives a moderately risque
>verse that neither of them sing. The verse fits
>thematically, though it changes in mood (to my
>ears, at least), and switches to the third
>person:
>
>And so early in the morning at the dawning of the
>day
>They went out into the hayfield to have some
>sport and play;
>And what they did there, she never would declare
>But she never more complained of his growing.
>
>(This verse is credited to the Penguin Book of
>English Folk Songs, William and Lloyd).
>Mudcat link:
>http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfmstuff=fall99+D+3120336
>
>This verse adds a further complication in the
>last line, because she had been complaining about
>his youth, not his growing--though the entire
>song is ambivalent about this. Ostensibly, she
>laments that he's too young, yet there's
>definitely a voyeuristic theme running through
>the song that makes me think she's secretly
>attracted to him:
>
>Many is the time my true love I've SEEN
>Many an hour I have WATCHED him all alone...
>
>One day I was LOOKING o'er my father's castle
>wall
>I SPIED all the boys a-playing at the ball
>My own true love was the FLOWER of them all.
>
>OK, maybe "flower" isn't terribly
>voyeuristic--though the ancient Greeks had a
>phrase "anthos gumnasiou" (flower of the
>gymnasium) to refer to their favorite boys.
>
>Anyway, what I'm really wondering about is a
>version by Judy Collins called "My Bonny Boy"
>(Judy Collins Concert, 1964).  Is this a later or
>earlier version? "My Bonny Boy" has very few of
>these references to watching, either because it
>was written earlier before that motif accrued to
>it, or because a later interpreter either didn't
>pick up on it or didn't like it.  Also, the ages
>of the characters are different: in "Trees" she
>is 24 and he 14, while in "Bonny Boy" she is 21
>and he 16, mitigating (pardon the pun) the age
>difference and making the song less, well,
>pedophilic. So, which version do you think is
>earlier? How does one make such a determination?
>Is "Bonny Boy" a cleaned-up version? Do songs
>generally become more or less bawdy as they go
>along?  Any other comments on this beautiful
>song?I'm going to ask a brutally blunt question here:
Do you know what a folk song is? The nature of your
questions seems to indicate the contrary. Folk songs
aren't poems, to be dated by the editions in which
they are published, and they don't follow regular
pattern of evolution, and details can be expected
to vary.As "A-Growing (He's Young But He's Daily A-Growing),"
this song is number O 35 in the Malcolm Laws catalog. I don't
know how many versions have been collected, but there are
at least several dozen, from all parts of the British
Isles, Canada, the southern and eastern U. S., and even
Australia. Robert Burns used it in 1792 as the basis
for "Lady Mary Anne," proving it to have been well-known
in Scotland even before that date.One could, theoretically, look at all the versions and
try to construct a "stemma" (family tree). I don't think
the results would be reliable, though -- too many missing
links. I would say you should just sit back and enjoy
the song, as thousands of ordinary people did when they
sang it for their children and friends. Worrying about
which versions are earlier will just give you a headache. :-)You might write to the performers you've heard sing
it and ask them for sources. Let's embarrass these
professional "folk singers" into supplying liner
notes. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: Douglas Cooke <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 21 Jul 2001 09:42:58 -0700
Content-Type:text/plain
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--- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
wrote:
I would say you should just sit back and
> enjoy
> the song, as thousands of ordinary people did
> when they
> sang it for their children and friends.Thanks for the info...though your arrogance makes
me wonder what meaningful connection you could
have with "ordinary people." And if just sitting
back is the recommended response, why do you have
a folk song database?__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 21 Jul 2001 23:52:36 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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On 7/21/01, Douglas Cooke wrote:>--- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
>wrote:
>I would say you should just sit back and
>> enjoy
>> the song, as thousands of ordinary people did
>> when they
>> sang it for their children and friends.
>
>Thanks for the info...though your arrogance makes
>me wonder what meaningful connection you could
>have with "ordinary people."Depends on what we're talking about. :-)But maybe I don't understand your question. You seemed to be
asking questions which would be perfectly reasonable to ask
about a chronicle, or other composed work -- but which have
no meaning applied to a folk song. A folk song has a
collection date - but that's not the date of the song.
You can't really date a version of a folk song -- it might
be collected late but split off the main stem of the tradition
early.I will admit to one piece of arrogance: I don't
*care* about versions sung by pop folksingers.
That's not to say I don't listen; while I don't own
any Collins albums, say, I do listen to Connie Dover
and Gordon Bok and other modern folksingers -- and
tend to prefer them to the performances by ninety-year-old
guys with no voice left and an out-of-tune banjo. :-)
But these recordings have no *value*. These singers
often touch up their pieces. So you can't even tell
what their sources are, or what portions are
traditional. I have no use whatsoever for that!--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:15:48 -0400
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As Robert points out, you can't take what a "professional" singer
sings as a text on which to base some sort of literary analysis to
research a song. We (at least those of us who think about what we're
doing) take texts we find all over the place, sometimes change a word
here, a phrase there, add a verse or a line from here, cut out a
verse or a line there, to make what we consider to be a singable text
(ie one that rolls of the tongue in our own style, and fits the tune
we have decided to use), and one that is "poetic" to our own
sensibilities. Sometimes we write verses when we want to explicate a
story, or bias a song towards a particular socio-political viewpoint,
but all in all we might mess about with it a lot.Further, treating the Digital Tradition (or the Mudcat archives) as a
source is not always a good idea. Mudcat is an unmoderated forum.
Anyone can contribute a song to the archive, one hopes that the
people who do give some information as to where it comes from. But
this isn't always the case. Digitrad is a very useful source of
lyrics, tunes, and general information. A number of the contributors
are extremely knowledgable and careful, others transcribe what they
hear off the radio. It all gets thrown into the same pot, and sorting
it all out isn't easy.Even "professional folklorists" do the same sort of stuff. A.L. Lloyd
in particular was interested in putting out songs for people to sing,
and he put together ("cobbled," to use one of his terms) texts in
much the way we singers do. And he didn't always do what he said he
did. Take the song in question, the Penguin Book version. The primary
source for the tune, collected in Devon by Bertha Bidder, with whom I
am totally unfamiliar, was an unnamed singer, with no collection
date. Lloyd states that "only one stanza of the text has survived."
He gives two primary sources for his collated text, and refers to
five additional versions in the Folk Song Journal. Neither of the
primary sources contains the>And so early in the morning at the dawning of the day
>They went out into the hayfield to have some
>sport and play;
>And what they did there, she never would declare
>But she never more complained of his growing.verse at all, but in one of the other versions (FSJ I, 214) we find:And 'twas on one summer's morning by the dawning of the day
And they went into some cornfields to have some sport and play.
And what they did there she never will declare
But she never more complained of his growing.
(Mr. Ede. Dunsfold, Surrey, 1896 - coll. Lucy Broadwood)So at least he didn't make it up. Now latterday folksingers love a
hint of bawdry (as did Lloyd), so you're going to find this, or
something similar, included in a lot of the versions sung today.
(This version, btw, also gives the ages of the boy as 13, 14, and 15,
though otherwise it seems to be almost universally 16, 17, and 18.)Now I don't think all of this shows very much, and it certainly
doesn't address your main question; but if that's a question you want
a serious answer to then you have a lot more research to do listening
to a few commercial folksingers.John Roberts.>Hi, it's me again. I'm interested in the song,
>"The Trees They Do Grow High." Joan Baez (second
>album, 1961) and Pentangle (Sweet Child, 1968)
>both do lovely versions of this song, with very
>similar lyrics, except that Joan omits the last
>verse, ending poignantly with "death put an end
>to his growing," making the narrative as
>truncated as the boy's life.  Another small
>difference is that Joan sings the father's words,
>"He'll make a great lord for you to wait upon,"
>while Jacqui McShee of Pentangle sings "He'll be
>a man for you when I am dead and gone." I thought
>perhaps that Jacqui, recording a few years later,
>simply made up the new line to avoid the part
>about waiting upon her man, which some might find
>offensive.  But looking up the song on Mudcat, I
>find that the lyrics "when I am dead and gone"
>are given. Mudcat also gives a moderately risque
>verse that neither of them sing. The verse fits
>thematically, though it changes in mood (to my
>ears, at least), and switches to the third
>person:
>
>And so early in the morning at the dawning of the
>day
>They went out into the hayfield to have some
>sport and play;
>And what they did there, she never would declare
>But she never more complained of his growing.
>
>(This verse is credited to the Penguin Book of
>English Folk Songs, William and Lloyd).
>Mudcat link:
>http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfmstuff=fall99+D+3120336
>
>This verse adds a further complication in the
>last line, because she had been complaining about
>his youth, not his growing--though the entire
>song is ambivalent about this. Ostensibly, she
>laments that he's too young, yet there's
>definitely a voyeuristic theme running through
>the song that makes me think she's secretly
>attracted to him:
>
>Many is the time my true love I've SEEN
>Many an hour I have WATCHED him all alone...
>
>One day I was LOOKING o'er my father's castle
>wall
>I SPIED all the boys a-playing at the ball
>My own true love was the FLOWER of them all.
>
>OK, maybe "flower" isn't terribly
>voyeuristic--though the ancient Greeks had a
>phrase "anthos gumnasiou" (flower of the
>gymnasium) to refer to their favorite boys.
>
>Anyway, what I'm really wondering about is a
>version by Judy Collins called "My Bonny Boy"
>(Judy Collins Concert, 1964).  Is this a later or
>earlier version? "My Bonny Boy" has very few of
>these references to watching, either because it
>was written earlier before that motif accrued to
>it, or because a later interpreter either didn't
>pick up on it or didn't like it.  Also, the ages
>of the characters are different: in "Trees" she
>is 24 and he 14, while in "Bonny Boy" she is 21
>and he 16, mitigating (pardon the pun) the age
>difference and making the song less, well,
>pedophilic. So, which version do you think is
>earlier? How does one make such a determination?
>Is "Bonny Boy" a cleaned-up version? Do songs
>generally become more or less bawdy as they go
>along?  Any other comments on this beautiful
>song?
>
>Doug
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: Sandy Paton <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:32:50 -0400
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The version of "Daily Growing" recorded by Joan Baez was based on that
collected from James Atwood of West Dover, Vermont, by Sturgis and
Hughes (Songs from the Green Hills of Vermont -- or a very similar title
-- my copy isn't handy). She seems to have altered the words slightly,
but her source has long been clear to me. I had recorded the ballad in
1959 for Elektra, having learned it from the printed collection, and had
inadvertantly changed the melody slightly in so doing. Baez used the
altered melody. I haven't heard the Collins version, but I sang the
ballad when Judy and I worked together at the Exodus in Denver in 1960.
        I believe Atwood sang "I am twice twelve and he is but fourteen" in
reference to the age differential. My wife once asked Joan (at Newport
in the early 60s) where she had learned the ballad, and was told "I
don't remember."
        So much for the tempest in the teapot.
        Sorry gang. I tried to send this in simple text, and can't figure out how
to do it. Lani and Don N. will never forgive me!
        Sandy Paton
        Folk-Legacy Records
<http://www.folklegacy.com>Douglas Cooke wrote:> --- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
> wrote:
> I would say you should just sit back and
>
>> enjoy
>> the song, as thousands of ordinary people did
>> when they
>> sang it for their children and friends.
>
>
> Thanks for the info...though your arrogance makes
> me wonder what meaningful connection you could
> have with "ordinary people." And if just sitting
> back is the recommended response, why do you have
> a folk song database?
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Donald Nichols <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:53:45 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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On Sat, Jul 21, 2001 at 01:32:50PM -0400, Sandy Paton wrote:> The version of "Daily Growing" recorded by Joan Baez was based on that        [ ... ]>         Sorry gang. I tried to send this in simple text, and can't figure out how
> to do it. Lani and Don N. will never forgive me!        But you *did* send it as plain text.  Whatever you did, you did
right this time. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
        (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Sat, 21 Jul 2001 15:01:42 -0400
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Douglas Cooke wrote:
>
> Hi, it's me again. I'm interested in the song,
> "The Trees They Do Grow High." Joan Baez (second
> album, 1961) and Pentangle (Sweet Child, 1968)
> both do lovely versions of this song, with very
> similar lyrics, except that Joan omits the last
> verse, ending poignantly with "death put an end
> to his growing," making the narrative as
> truncated as the boy's life.  Another small
> difference is that Joan sings the father's words,
> "He'll make a great lord for you to wait upon,"
> while Jacqui McShee of Pentangle sings "He'll be
> a man for you when I am dead and gone." I thought
> perhaps that Jacqui, recording a few years later,
> simply made up the new line to avoid the part
> about waiting upon her man, which some might find
> offensive.  But looking up the song on Mudcat, I
> find that the lyrics "when I am dead and gone"
> are given. Mudcat also gives a moderately risque
> verse that neither of them sing. The verse fits
> thematically, though it changes in mood (to my
> ears, at least), and switches to the third
> person:
>
> And so early in the morning at the dawning of the
> day
> They went out into the hayfield to have some
> sport and play;
> And what they did there, she never would declare
> But she never more complained of his growing.
>
> (This verse is credited to the Penguin Book of
> English Folk Songs, William and Lloyd).
> Mudcat link:
> http://shorty.mudcat.org/!!-song99.cfmstuff=fall99+D+3120336
>
> This verse adds a further complication in the
> last line, because she had been complaining about
> his youth, not his growing--though the entire
> song is ambivalent about this. Ostensibly, she
> laments that he's too young, yet there's
> definitely a voyeuristic theme running through
> the song that makes me think she's secretly
> attracted to him:
>
> Many is the time my true love I've SEEN
> Many an hour I have WATCHED him all alone...
>
> One day I was LOOKING o'er my father's castle
> wall
> I SPIED all the boys a-playing at the ball
> My own true love was the FLOWER of them all.
>
> OK, maybe "flower" isn't terribly
> voyeuristic--though the ancient Greeks had a
> phrase "anthos gumnasiou" (flower of the
> gymnasium) to refer to their favorite boys.
>
> Anyway, what I'm really wondering about is a
> version by Judy Collins called "My Bonny Boy"
> (Judy Collins Concert, 1964).  Is this a later or
> earlier version? "My Bonny Boy" has very few of
> these references to watching, either because it
> was written earlier before that motif accrued to
> it, or because a later interpreter either didn't
> pick up on it or didn't like it.  Also, the ages
> of the characters are different: in "Trees" she
> is 24 and he 14, while in "Bonny Boy" she is 21
> and he 16, mitigating (pardon the pun) the age
> difference and making the song less, well,
> pedophilic. So, which version do you think is
> earlier? How does one make such a determination?
> Is "Bonny Boy" a cleaned-up version? Do songs
> generally become more or less bawdy as they go
> along?  Any other comments on this beautiful
> song?
>
> Doug
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/THE YOUNG LAIRD OF CRAIGSTOUN [Title from Maidment, below]Father, she said, you have done me wrong
For ye have married me on a child young man
For ye have married me on a child young man,
And my bonny love is long a growing.Daughter, said he, I have done you no wrong
For I have married you on a heritor of land
He's likewise possess'd of many bill and band
And He'll be daily growing,
   Growing, deary, growing, growing
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growing.Daughter said he, if ye do weel
Ye will put your husband away to the scheel,
That he of learning may gather great skill,
And he'll be daily growing.
 Growing, &c.Now young Craigston to the College is gane
And left his Lady making great mane
That he's so long a growing
Growing, &c.She dress'd herself in robes of green
They were right comely to be seen
She was the the picture of Venus the Queen
And she's to the College to see him.
Growing, &c.Then all the colleginers was playing at the ba'
But young Craigstone was the flower of them a'
He said - play on, my school fellows a'
For I see my sister coming.Now down into the College park
They walked about till it was dark,
Then he lifted up her fine holland sark-
And she had no reason to complain of his growing.
Growing,In his twelfth year he was a married man,
In his thirteenth year there he got a son,
And in his fourteenth year his grave grew green,
And that was an end of his growing -
Growing, &c."The text is from the Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe transcript at
Broughton House, Kirkudbright, of the MS. entitled in the Scott
transcript 'North Country Ballads'. A printed version of the
Nicol [?] text also appears in James Maidment, 'A North Countrie
Garland' (Edinburgh, 1824)... As Sharpe's text is untitled, this
title comes from Maidment." David Buchan, 'A Book of Scottish
Ballads',  Regrettably, but unsurprisingly, no tune was recorded
for this version."[from]  Malcolm [Douglas in the Mudcat Forum]
.......................[Next from 'Additional Illustrations to The Scots Musical
Museum,' by Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe, wiht Sharpe's headnote.]"The words of the ballad mentioned by Mr S. [notes to SMM #377]
as 'Craigston's growing' are subjoined from a MS. It may be
observed that young Urquhart of Craigston, who had fallen into
the power of the Laird of Innes, was by him married to his
daughter Elizabeth Innes, and died in 1634. -See Spalding
History, vol. I. p. 36- (C. K. S.)[Untitled]Father, she said you have done me wrang,
For ye have married me on a child young man,
For ye have married me on a child young man,
And my bonny love is long a growing.Daughter, said he, I have done you no wrang,
For I have married you on a heritor of land;
He's likewise possess'd of many a bill and band,
And he'll be daily growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingDaughter, he said, if ye do weel,
Ye will put your husband away to the scheel,
That he of learning may gather great skill;
And he'll be daily growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingNow young Craigston to the college is gane,
And left his lady making great mane,
And left his lady making great mane,
That he's so long a growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingShe dress'd herself in robes of green,
She was right comely to be seen;
She was the picture of Venus the queen,
And she's to the college to see him.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingThen all the colligeners war playing at the ba',
But young Craigston was the flower of them a',
He said- "play on,my school fellows a';"
For I see my sister coming.Now down into the College Park,
They walked about till it was dark,
........ [Then he lifted up her fine holland sark-]
And she'd no reason to compleen of his growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growingIn his twelfth year he was a married man;
In his thirteenth year there he gat a son;
And in his fourteenth year his grave grew green,
And that was an end of his growing.
  Growing, deary, growing, growing:
  Growing, said the bonny maid,
  Slowly's my bonny love growing[Next from Maidment's 'A North Countrie Garland', (1824) from
reprint of 1884. Heading quoted in full.]The estate of Craigstoun was acquired by John Urquhart, better
known by the name of Tutor of Cromarty. It would appear that the
ballad refers to his grandson, who married Elizabeth, daughter
of Sir Robert Innes of that ilk, and by her had one son. This
John Urquhart died November 30, 1634. Spalding (vol. i. p. 36),
after mentioning the great mortality in the Craigstoun family,
says: "Thus in three years' space the good-sire, son, any oy
died." He adds that "the Laird of Innes (whose sister was married
to this Urquhat of Leathers, the father, and not without her
consent, as was thought, gets the guiding of this young boy, and
without advice of friends, shortly and quietly marries him,
upon his own eldest daughter Elizabeth Innes." He mentions that
young Craigstoun's death was generally attributed to melancholy,
in consequence of Sir Robert Innes refusing to pay old
Craigstoun's debts: the creditors bestowing "many maledictions,
which touched the young man's conscience, albeit he could not
mend it." The father died in December, 1631, and the son in 1634.
The marriage consequently must have been of short duration.The Young Laird of Craigston"Father," said she, "you have done me wrong'
  For you have married me on a childe young man,
  For you have married me on a childe young man,
And my bonny love is long
    A growing, growing, deary,
      Growing, growing said the bonny maid,
    How long my bonny love's a growing.""Daughter," said he, "I have done you no wrong,
  For I have married you on a heritor of land,
  He's likewise possessed of many bills and bonds,
And he'll be daily
      Growing, growing, deary," &c."Daughter," said he, "if you wish to do well,
Ye will send your husband away to the school,
That he of learning may gather great skill,
  And he'll be daily
      Growing, growing, deary," &c.Now young Craigstoun to the college is gone,
And left his lady making great moan,
That she should be forced to lie a-bed alone,
  And that he was so long
    A-growing, growing, &c.She's dressed herself in robes of green,
They were right comely to be seen,
She was the picure of Venus' queen,
  And she's to the college to see
    Him growing, growing, &c.Then all of the Collegineers were playing at the ba',
But the young Craaigstoun was the flower of them a';
He said, "Play on, my schoolfellows a',
  For I see my sister
     Coming, coming," &c.Now down into the college park
They walked about till it was dark,
Then he lifted up her fine Holland sark,
  And she had no reason to complain
    Of his growing, growing, &c.In his twelfth year he was a married man,
In his thirteenth year then he got a son;
And in his fourteenth year his grave grew green,
  And that was the end
    Of his growing, growing, &c.
............................
My suspicion, as yet unconfirmed, is that C. K. Sharpe's MS
source was the copy in the collection of the Rev. Robert Scott of
Glenbuchet/Glenbuchat, i.e., that mentioned by Wm. Stenhouse in
'Illustrations to the Scots Musical Museum', #377, which
Stenhouse called "Craigton's Growing" .For additional traditional and broadside texts see G. M. Laws,
Jr., 'American Balladry from British Broadsides', O 35, and Steve
Roud's folk song and broadside ballad indexes, Roud #31.My modus operandi- Songs from professional entertainers are not
traditional songs until so proven.Bruce Olson--
Roots of Folk: Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes,
broadside ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw
or just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: BALLAD-L Digest - 18 Jul 2001 to 21 Jul 2001 - Special issue (#2001-121)
From: Margaret MacArthur <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sun, 22 Jul 2001 22:12:20 -0500
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Thank you Sandy for setting the record straight on the Baez version of
Daily Growing.  You deserve the credit here as does James Atwood, who sang
the song for Edith Sturgis,  In 1919 she published 13 Atwood songs in
Schirmer's Songs From the Hills of Vermont. I see those particular hills in
Dover Vermont from my kitchen window, and I sing many songs from the Atwood
family, having learned them from James' son Fred Atwood. The title of our
family 1972 recording On the Mountains High  comes from a line in the
chorus of Ranadine, one of the many songs I learned from Fred Atwood.
Several other Atwood songs are on that recording, soon to be reissued as a
CD.>Date:    Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:32:50 -0400
>From:    Sandy Paton <[unmask]>
>Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>The version of "Daily Growing" recorded by Joan Baez was based on that
>collected from James Atwood of West Dover, Vermont, by Sturgis and
>Hughes (Songs from the Green Hills of Vermont -- or a very similar title
>-- my copy isn't handy). She seems to have altered the words slightly,
>but her source has long been clear to me. I had recorded the ballad in
>1959 for Elektra, having learned it from the printed collection, and had
>inadvertantly changed the melody slightly in so doing. Baez used the
>altered melody. I haven't heard the Collins version, but I sang the
>ballad when Judy and I worked together at the Exodus in Denver in 1960.
>        I believe Atwood sang "I am twice twelve and he is but fourteen" in
>reference to the age differential. My wife once asked Joan (at Newport
>in the early 60s) where she had learned the ballad, and was told "I
>don't remember."
>        So much for the tempest in the teapot.
>        Sorry gang. I tried to send this in simple text, and can't figure
>out how
>to do it. Lani and Don N. will never forgive me!
>        Sandy Paton
>        Folk-Legacy Records
><http://www.folklegacy.com>
>
>Douglas Cooke wrote:
>
>> --- "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> I would say you should just sit back and
>>
>>> enjoy
>>> the song, as thousands of ordinary people did
>>> when they
>>> sang it for their children and friends.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info...though your arrogance makes
>> me wonder what meaningful connection you could
>> have with "ordinary people." And if just sitting
>> back is the recommended response, why do you have
>> a folk song database?
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
>> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
>
>--UVPQIPTMQLQXeEPdTXWISbEWOBVHGE--Margaret MacArthur
Box 15 MacArthur Road
Marlboro VT 05344
802/254/2549
[unmask]
http://www.margaretmacarthur.com
from the heart of the Green Mountains

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: ghost <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:27:32 -0400
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>  From [unmask] Sat Jul 21 13:33:44 2001
>  Date:         Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:32:50 -0400
>  From: Sandy Paton <[unmask]>
>  Subject:      Re: the trees they do grow high
>  To: [unmask]>  My wife once asked Joan (at Newport
>  in the early 60s) where she had learned the ballad, and was told "I
>  don't remember."I always wondered where Baez got her ballads, & she never said in either of
her autobiographies.  There's a new book out ("Positively 4th Street", or
some other Dylan-reminiscent title) where the author says she stole all her
ballads & arrangements of them (probably even down to the singularly inept,
in my opinion, folkie-strum used on those early records) from a person she had
been doing duets with in Cambridge back in the late 50s, Debbie Green.  The
author interviews Baez on the topic & she says "yeah, but she wasn't going
to do anything with her songs & I was going to be a star" (this is
paraphrased, but only slightly, & the meaning is intact) & Green says "I
wasn't going anywhere in the music world, its true, but the way she did it
really hurt".  Baez had shown up at a concert where they were supposed to
be doing duets, had gotten herself billed as a solo act that came on 1st,
& did their whole set solo, note for note.  The Boston Globe magazine section
published this outtake from the book a few months ago; I can bring it in
tomorrow & type it in if anyone wants.I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about every
way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
the time).  I guess it hasn't completely crumbled yet, because I found
this book except really depressing.  The way the book says she treated Mimi
in those days is depressing too (she told her, when Mimi asked, that it wasn't
a good idea for Mimi to study music), but apparently they've long since
made up.

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 15:54:04 -0400
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ghost wrote:> I always wondered where Baez got her ballads, & she never said in either of
> her autobiographies.  There's a new book out ("Positively 4th Street", or
> some other Dylan-reminiscent title) where the author says she stole all her
> ballads & arrangements of them (probably even down to the singularly inept,
> in my opinion, folkie-strum used on those early records) from a person she had
> been doing duets with in Cambridge back in the late 50s, Debbie Green.  The
> author interviews Baez on the topic & she says "yeah, but she wasn't going
> to do anything with her songs & I was going to be a star" (this is
> paraphrased, but only slightly, & the meaning is intact) & Green says "I
> wasn't going anywhere in the music world, its true, but the way she did it
> really hurt".  Baez had shown up at a concert where they were supposed to
> be doing duets, had gotten herself billed as a solo act that came on 1st,
> & did their whole set solo, note for note.  The Boston Globe magazine section
> published this outtake from the book a few months ago; I can bring it in
> tomorrow & type it in if anyone wants.I wasn't around in those days, but some friends who knew the Club 47
days called her "Joanie Phoney".  I used to think it was just a standard
personality conflict, but maybe there was more to it...-Don Duncan

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:48:35 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: ghost <[unmask]><<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about
every
way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
the time>>If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
Woody Guthrie.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: ghost <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 16:07:13 -0400
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>  From [unmask] Mon Jul 23 15:54:20 2001
>  Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:48:35 -0500
>  From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
>  Subject:      Re: the trees they do grow high
>  To: [unmask]>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: ghost <[unmask]>
>
>  <<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago
>  when I 1st saw a concert by her <I meant this to say it was the 1st time
>  I ever saw her in concert> in which she blew off the audience in
>  just about every way possible (but did one terrific song,
>  terrifically sung, at the end, the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti;
>  whichever one wrote the series of letters to his son, which <song> she
>  had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at the time>>>  If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
>  Woody Guthrie.Based on the same set of letters, but a different song, I'm pretty sure.The song was written for a documentary that came out around the time of the
concert (72 summer maybe); I never saw it but have heard the sound track
(& may have the record).

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: George Madaus <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:14:07 -0500
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There was a Folkways record called Sacco and Vanzetti cold have come from
thereghost wrote:> >  From [unmask] Mon Jul 23 15:54:20 2001
> >  Date:         Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:48:35 -0500
> >  From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
> >  Subject:      Re: the trees they do grow high
> >  To: [unmask]
>
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: ghost <[unmask]>
> >
> >  <<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago
> >  when I 1st saw a concert by her <I meant this to say it was the 1st time
> >  I ever saw her in concert> in which she blew off the audience in
> >  just about every way possible (but did one terrific song,
> >  terrifically sung, at the end, the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti;
> >  whichever one wrote the series of letters to his son, which <song> she
> >  had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at the time>>
>
> >  If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
> >  Woody Guthrie.
>
> Based on the same set of letters, but a different song, I'm pretty sure.
>
> The song was written for a documentary that came out around the time of the
> concert (72 summer maybe); I never saw it but have heard the sound track
> (& may have the record).--
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02467
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8419 FAX

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Subject: My generous lover
From: [unmask]
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:11:48 EDT
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Subject: Re: My generous lover
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:36:24 -0500
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On 7/23/01, [unmask] wrote:>Despite search for a traditional or printed ballad source for this song, I
>can find nothing which predates Bert Lloyd. I am told that somewhere he
>accorded it an origin in Co Donegal.
>
>Has anyone any knowledge of a previous source? Or indeed of a source which
>does not derive from ALL?
>Can anyone find the particular place in which he gave the Irish attribution?
>
>I will be grateful.Take a look at Huntington's "The First Time I Saw My Love"
(Songs the Whalemen Sang, pp. 225-226). It dates from 1856.And then ask why you didn't check the Ballad Index. :-)FWIW, Huntington quotes Lloyd as thinking it's Irish, but R. J. Hayes
as thinking it's English.
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: Clifford J Ocheltree <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:14:25 -0500
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        More likely it is "The Ballad of Sacco And Vanzetti" a
collaboration between Baez and Ennio Morricone which was used in Giuliano
Montaldo's 1971 political drama "Sacco & Vanzetti". I have no specifics on
who did words or music or what the source was for same [if any]. Was
released as a single by RCA with "Here's To You" another collaboration as
the flip side.CliffAt 2:48 PM -0500 7/23/01, Paul Stamler wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: ghost <[unmask]>
>
><<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
>1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about
>every
>way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
>the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
>letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
>the time>>
>
>If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
>Woody Guthrie.
>
>Peace,
>Paul

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Subject: Re: My generous lover
From: [unmask]
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Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 19:30:48 EDT
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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: tom hall <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:45:20 -0500
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It's way too hot here in NH to dig out the video and check the credits, but
I do have some recollection that the song was one of those penned by Woody
Guthrie. If anyone has an old Folkways catalogue, it can be looked up under
FH5485, Ballads of Sacco and Vanzetti.Leonard Maltin gave this film *1/2; probably reviewed by one of his army of
less competent reviewers. This was certainly not a great film, somewhat
disjointed, lots of informational gaps, but nonetheless well worth viewing.
I used to show it to my US history classes.. Sing more songs, watch more
films  --  Tom>        More likely it is "The Ballad of Sacco And Vanzetti" a
>collaboration between Baez and Ennio Morricone which was used in Giuliano
>Montaldo's 1971 political drama "Sacco & Vanzetti". I have no specifics on
>who did words or music or what the source was for same [if any]. Was
>released as a single by RCA with "Here's To You" another collaboration as
>the flip side.
>
>Cliff
>
>
>At 2:48 PM -0500 7/23/01, Paul Stamler wrote:
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: ghost <[unmask]>
>>
>><<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
>>1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about
>>every
>>way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
>>the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
>>letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
>>the time>>
>>
>>If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
>>Woody Guthrie.
>>
>>Peace,
>>Paul

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 17:22:59 -0700
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Paul:If the Baez song is "Sacco's Letter to His Son," it was written
(obviously) by Nicola Sacco, but the setting was composed by Pete Seeger.
It is available on Smithsonian Folkways 40060, as a "postscript" to
Guthrie's song cycle on the Sacco-Vanzetti case.EdOn Mon, 23 Jul 2001, Paul Stamler wrote:> ----- Original Message -----
> From: ghost <[unmask]>
>
> <<I used to idolize Baez, which started to crumble about 28 years ago when I
> 1st saw a concert by her in which she blew off the audience in just about
> every
> way possible (but did one terrific song, terrifically sung, at the end,
> the ballad of either Sacco or Vanzetti; whichever one wrote the series of
> letters to his son, which she had written, so it didn't crumble entirely at
> the time>>
>
> If the song is "Sacco's Letter to his Son", I believe it was written by
> Woody Guthrie.
>
> Peace,
> Paul
>

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Subject: O'Brien of Tipperary
From: Dan Milner <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:11:55 -0400
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I've been singing for a numbers of years (not continually) a ballad entitled
"O'Brien of Tipperary."  The version derives from a Haly (Cork) broadside.
Briefly, "O'Brien" has a "freed from the gallows" (or firing squad, in this
case) theme and is set in the United States during the Civil War.In the Philadelphia regiment I mean to let you know
O'Brien many a battle fought against the Southern foe
The major's daughter fell in love with him and you may plainly see
Her father then did resolve to prove her destiny.Does anyone have a reference for "O'Brien" beyond the recent Joe Heaney CD?
I am particularly curious about any record (collection, printing, historic
details of the incident, etc.) of it having been in America.  Thank you in
advance.All the best,
Dan Milner

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Subject: Re: My generous lover
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:29:25 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]><<Take a look at Huntington's "The First Time I Saw My Love"
(Songs the Whalemen Sang, pp. 225-226). It dates from 1856.And then ask why you didn't check the Ballad Index. :-)FWIW, Huntington quotes Lloyd as thinking it's Irish, but R. J. Hayes
as thinking it's English.>>The only quote from Lloyd I can find is: "Another song that seems to have
escaped print, though it isn't all that uncommon...Some singers call the
song "Pretty Peggy", though the girl's name doesn't appear in the text."
Tantalizing.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: Re: the trees they do grow high
From: Clifford J Ocheltree <[unmask]>
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Date:Mon, 23 Jul 2001 20:12:44 -0500
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        The credits, taken from "The Ennio Morricone Anthology: A Fist Full
Of Film Music" [Rhino R2 71858; 1995] read:"All selections composed by Ennio Morricone, except for the following
collaborations "The Ballad of Sacco And Vanzetti" [with Joan Baez], "Here's
To You" [with Joan Baez]Cliff

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Subject: Re: My generous lover
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Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 04:46:28 EDT
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Subject: Now for something completely different...
From: Stephanie Smith <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 12:22:43 -0400
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Good people -I received the following query through our website:>> Hi, I am looking for words and/or music to a song that goes something like 
this:"Ooly gooly rama sham shamAraki, araki!"I think it's from island country but i am not sure. <<Does this ring a bell for anyone?  It's presumably *not* a ballad (!) but the collective 
song knowledge on this list is so formidable that I thought I'd run it by you all.  I've come 
up with nothing on the searches I've done.Thanks.Stephanie Smith, Ph.D., Assistant Archivist
Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
Smithsonian Institution
750 9th Street, NW, Suite 4100
Washington, D.C.  20560-0953
202 275-1157
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Now for something completely different...
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:14:53 -0400
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>"Ooly gooly rama sham sham
>
>Araki, araki!"
>
>I think it's from island country but i am not sure. <<A college cheer?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Now for something completely different...
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 10:34:20 -0700
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On Tue, Jul 24, 2001 at 12:22:43PM -0400, Stephanie Smith wrote:
> Good people -
>
> I received the following query through our website:
>
> >> Hi, I am looking for words and/or music to a song that goes something like
> this:
>
> "Ooly gooly rama sham sham
>
> Araki, araki!"        There's a song in one of those little Coop Recreation books that has the
title/line: A Ram Sam Sam
Is probably in a non-Western language, but I'm not home where the book is,
and won't be for the next couple of weeks.  But the rest of it does appear to
be some sort of garbled version of a (western) children's 'nursery' rhyme,
or a football chant or something! -- aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

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Subject: Now for something completely different...
From: Ewan McVicar <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 15:45:22 -0400
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Stephanie,
Greetings from Linlithgow.The book Rise Up Singing, ed Peter Blood & Annie Patterson, a Sing Out!
Publication, Bethlehem, Penn, 1992, gives this, page 188.A ram sam sam, a ram sam sam,
Guli guli guli guli guli, ram sam sam. (repeat)
A rafi, a rafi,
Guli guli guli guli guli, ram sam sam. (repeat).
- trad. (Morocco)I've had the song quoted to me as sung in guide camps in Scotland.The tune is also now used for a massively popular [in the USA and GB]
action song A Pizza Hut, a Pizza Hut,
Kentucky Fried Chicken and a Pizza Hut (repeat) 
MacDonalds, MacDonalds, 
Kentucky Fried Chicken and a Pizza Hut (repeat) With verses for other fast food chains, makes of car, etc.A version I was given in Johnston City, East Tennessee, had some six full
verses of US fast food chains!Ewan McVicar"Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
George OrwellEwan McVicar, 
84 High Street
Linlithgow, 
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935Webpage <http://members.jings.com/~traditional>

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Subject: Guy Benton Johnson (Part 2)
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:26:41 -0400
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Please insert "stamp" at the end of the first sentence of my previous
post on Johnson.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Guy Benton Johnson
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 16:23:13 -0400
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I've just finished reading Colson Whitehead's "John Henry Days"
(Doubleday, 2001), a novel centered on the John Henry songs/legends
and the issuing a John Henry.  It is obvious that Whitehead has been
pretty thorough in doing his John Henry homework, but I was surprised
at p 166 at the following description of an incident involving Guy
Benton Johnson in West Virginia:"  Al shook his head.  'Sure you want to stay here?' the man asked.
"They other places you might want-'
"  Guy cut him off, thanked him and was promptly refused a room by
the proprietor of McCreery's, who informed him that he was not in the
habit of giving rooms to niggers...."I had never thought of the possibility that Johnson might have been
black.  Indeed, I would not have thought it possible a black to have
gained Johnson's position at the University of North Carolina in the
1920s.  Searching the WWW, I've not found a photograph of Johnson nor
any mention of his race except for one site that groups him with some
"white" scholars.So, what's the story?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Now for something completely different...
From: Stephanie Smith <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 17:12:28 -0400
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Thank you all for your help on this song which seems to have led an interesting 
life from Morocco to Scottish and American camps and beyond!  I passed on the 
Rise Up Singing reference to the person who sent me the query, and he was delighted.Stephanie>>> [unmask] 07/24/01 03:45PM >>>
Stephanie,
Greetings from Linlithgow.The book Rise Up Singing, ed Peter Blood & Annie Patterson, a Sing Out!
Publication, Bethlehem, Penn, 1992, gives this, page 188.A ram sam sam, a ram sam sam,
Guli guli guli guli guli, ram sam sam. (repeat)
A rafi, a rafi,
Guli guli guli guli guli, ram sam sam. (repeat).
- trad. (Morocco)I've had the song quoted to me as sung in guide camps in Scotland.The tune is also now used for a massively popular [in the USA and GB]
action song A Pizza Hut, a Pizza Hut,
Kentucky Fried Chicken and a Pizza Hut (repeat) 
MacDonalds, MacDonalds, 
Kentucky Fried Chicken and a Pizza Hut (repeat) With verses for other fast food chains, makes of car, etc.A version I was given in Johnston City, East Tennessee, had some six full
verses of US fast food chains!Ewan McVicar"Political language ... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder
respectable and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."
George OrwellEwan McVicar, 
84 High Street
Linlithgow, 
West Lothian
Scotland
EH49 7AQtel 01506 847935Webpage <http://members.jings.com/~traditional>

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Subject: Re: O'Brien of Tipperary
From: claddagh <[unmask]>
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Date:Tue, 24 Jul 2001 19:55:36 +0100
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Subject: Hump-house
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 25 Jul 2001 14:39:24 -0400
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Frankie she worked in a hump-house
A hump-house with only two doors,
Gave all her money to Johnie
Who spent it on the parlor-house whores
   Damn his soul,
   For he was doin' her wrong.       - Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men (Berkeley, California, 1923)This caught my attention because so many versions of Frankie have her
going to a hop-house to find Albert/Johnny.  "Hump-house,"
"hop-house," what's the difference?  I can confidently guess, of
course.  Yet, I don't recall having heard a whore-house called a
hump-house before.  This raises several questions.Is hump-house a common term?Did it denote a particular type or quality of operation?
    (as opposed, here, to parlor-house)I guess that a hop-house might be a drug den of some sort, but those
that most of those I find on the WWW seem to be establishments
providing ingredients for beer, although one clearly intended
hop-house to be opium den.  Comments?Assuming that hop-house meant opium den, were those common in St.
Louis in the 1890s?
Were they there at all?
I tend to associate these establishments with the west coast and
Chinese, but I suppose that Chinese and/or their opium customs could
have been in St. Louis then.Which is more likely as the original in Frankie, hump-house or hop-house?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 25 Jul 2001 13:57:45 -0700
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John:"Hump" has been used for sexual intercourse at least since the late 18th
C. according to the redoubtable Frances Grose.  Wentworth and Flexner date
that usage in the United States from 1845 on.  (They even give a
contemporary, ca. 1950, joke playing on that definition.)There should be no doubt about her occupation.  Of the four texts I
printed in _The Erotic Muse, second edition, one has her working in a
"crib house," one in a "crip house," and one in a "hump house."That latter version is from Berkeley dated to 1921 in the Robert
C. Gordon collection.  Is your version here also from Gordon?EdOn Wed, 25 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> Frankie she worked in a hump-house
> A hump-house with only two doors,
> Gave all her money to Johnie
> Who spent it on the parlor-house whores
>    Damn his soul,
>    For he was doin' her wrong.
>
>        - Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men (Berkeley, California, 1923)
>
> This caught my attention because so many versions of Frankie have her
> going to a hop-house to find Albert/Johnny.  "Hump-house,"
> "hop-house," what's the difference?  I can confidently guess, of
> course.  Yet, I don't recall having heard a whore-house called a
> hump-house before.  This raises several questions.
>
> Is hump-house a common term?
>
> Did it denote a particular type or quality of operation?
>     (as opposed, here, to parlor-house)
>
> I guess that a hop-house might be a drug den of some sort, but those
> that most of those I find on the WWW seem to be establishments
> providing ingredients for beer, although one clearly intended
> hop-house to be opium den.  Comments?
>
> Assuming that hop-house meant opium den, were those common in St.
> Louis in the 1890s?
> Were they there at all?
> I tend to associate these establishments with the west coast and
> Chinese, but I suppose that Chinese and/or their opium customs could
> have been in St. Louis then.
>
> Which is more likely as the original in Frankie, hump-house or hop-house?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:09:43 -0400
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>...one in a "hump house."
>
>That latter version is from Berkeley dated to 1921 in the Robert
>C. Gordon collection.  Is your version here also from Gordon?Yes, but 1923.  Do you have Gordon's source, Songs and Fragments
Common Among Young Men?  Or did Gordon author that collection?What is your opinion of priority, hump-house or hop-house?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
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Date:Wed, 25 Jul 2001 17:13:27 -0400
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The verse as I recall i was:
"Frankie she worked in a crubhouse
Cribhouse had only one door
She gave Johnnie all her mony
Sprnt it on a parlour whore"There was definitely a hierarchy among prostitutes; a crib was about as low as one
could go.dick greehausJohn Garst wrote:> Frankie she worked in a hump-house
> A hump-house with only two doors,
> Gave all her money to Johnie
> Who spent it on the parlor-house whores
>    Damn his soul,
>    For he was doin' her wrong.
>
>        - Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men (Berkeley, California, 1923)
>
> This caught my attention because so many versions of Frankie have her
> going to a hop-house to find Albert/Johnny.  "Hump-house,"
> "hop-house," what's the difference?  I can confidently guess, of
> course.  Yet, I don't recall having heard a whore-house called a
> hump-house before.  This raises several questions.
>
> Is hump-house a common term?
>
> Did it denote a particular type or quality of operation?
>     (as opposed, here, to parlor-house)
>
> I guess that a hop-house might be a drug den of some sort, but those
> that most of those I find on the WWW seem to be establishments
> providing ingredients for beer, although one clearly intended
> hop-house to be opium den.  Comments?
>
> Assuming that hop-house meant opium den, were those common in St.
> Louis in the 1890s?
> Were they there at all?
> I tend to associate these establishments with the west coast and
> Chinese, but I suppose that Chinese and/or their opium customs could
> have been in St. Louis then.
>
> Which is more likely as the original in Frankie, hump-house or hop-house?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 25 Jul 2001 15:19:00 -0700
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John:I would guess that hump preceeds hop.I don't have the Gordon "anthology" specifically.  How big is it?  Can I
get a copy?  Glad to pay, of course.I do some 100 individual leaves from the Gordon collection.Ed

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: tom hall <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 08:05:47 -0500
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Ed, John, et al.  --  The 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue gives the
following:  Hump.  To bump; once a fashionable word for copulation.There is no listing for Hop, but a Hop Merchant is defined as  "A Dancing
Master."--  Tom>John:
>
>I would guess that hump preceeds hop.
>
>I don't have the Gordon "anthology" specifically.  How big is it?  Can I
>get a copy?  Glad to pay, of course.
>
>I do some 100 individual leaves from the Gordon collection.
>
>Ed

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
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Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:55:11 -0400
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...
>I don't have the Gordon "anthology" specifically.  How big is it?  Can I
>get a copy?  Glad to pay, of course.I am led to presume that "Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men"
was a collection to which Gordon had access.  He takes a number of
songs from it in his "California" collection, that is, he notes at
the end of the typescript, "Songs and Fragments Common Among Young
Men, Berkeley, California, 1923," as if this were the title of a
printed (or other) collection of songs.  In The Erotic Muse, second
edition, you state "The 'C' text (this one - JG) too is from Gordon,
obtained from a California student in 1921.  J. Barre Toelken
forwarded it from the Gordon Collection of American Folk Song,
University of Oregon."  Evidently the U. Oregon Gordon collection has
some details ("from a California student, 1921") that I didn't find
in the microfilm from the Library of Congress.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:46:46 -0700
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John:Available evidence would suggest that it is the other way around:Gordon took earlier material he had collected at the University of
California Berkeley between 1918-1924.I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's term paper.He had some others there dealing with folksong, according to Kodish's
biography, _Good Friends and Bad Enemies._EdOn Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> ...
> >I don't have the Gordon "anthology" specifically.  How big is it?  Can I
> >get a copy?  Glad to pay, of course.
>
> I am led to presume that "Songs and Fragments Common Among Young Men"
> was a collection to which Gordon had access.  He takes a number of
> songs from it in his "California" collection, that is, he notes at
> the end of the typescript, "Songs and Fragments Common Among Young
> Men, Berkeley, California, 1923," as if this were the title of a
> printed (or other) collection of songs.  In The Erotic Muse, second
> edition, you state "The 'C' text (this one - JG) too is from Gordon,
> obtained from a California student in 1921.  J. Barre Toelken
> forwarded it from the Gordon Collection of American Folk Song,
> University of Oregon."  Evidently the U. Oregon Gordon collection has
> some details ("from a California student, 1921") that I didn't find
> in the microfilm from the Library of Congress.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Guy Benton Johnson
From: Norm Cohen <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 10:15:16 -0700
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Glad to see your question. I had read that too in Whitehead's book and
thought to myself, how odd I'd never suspected him of being black.
Norm Cohen----- Original Message -----
From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:23 PM
Subject: Guy Benton Johnson> I've just finished reading Colson Whitehead's "John Henry Days"
> (Doubleday, 2001), a novel centered on the John Henry songs/legends
> and the issuing a John Henry.  It is obvious that Whitehead has been
> pretty thorough in doing his John Henry homework, but I was surprised
> at p 166 at the following description of an incident involving Guy
> Benton Johnson in West Virginia:
>
> "  Al shook his head.  'Sure you want to stay here?' the man asked.
> "They other places you might want-'
> "  Guy cut him off, thanked him and was promptly refused a room by
> the proprietor of McCreery's, who informed him that he was not in the
> habit of giving rooms to niggers...."
>
> I had never thought of the possibility that Johnson might have been
> black.  Indeed, I would not have thought it possible a black to have
> gained Johnson's position at the University of North Carolina in the
> 1920s.  Searching the WWW, I've not found a photograph of Johnson nor
> any mention of his race except for one site that groups him with some
> "white" scholars.
>
> So, what's the story?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 13:29:06 -0400
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Ed says>...I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's term paper....Why, if it were a term paper or thesis, would the author's name be omitted?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Oldest "Stackolee"? - Stack's Stetson?
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 17:06:48 -0400
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The earliest version of "Stagalee" found by John Russell David dates
from 1910, when it was sent to John Lomax by Ella Scott Fisher, San
Antonio, Texas.According to David, on January 3, 1919, William Marion Reedy printed,
in "Reedy's Mirror," a version of "Stackerlee" from D'Arcy Fanning of
Muskogee, Oklahoma.  Fanning learned it from the "Three White Kuhns,"
a vaudeville act.  Finger reprinted it later.  Robert W. Gordon saw
evidence that this version was "corrupted by the hand of an author,"
an interesting choice of words, perhaps.The "Kuhns" song is nearly identical with one in the Gordon
collection, #3756, sent in June, 1929, by Charles E. Roe (Hudson,
MA), bearing the heading "My version of Stackolee.  Writ(t)en down by
Kenneth Olesen, Duluth, 1903."  The "Kuhns" and Olesen versions
consist of the same 15 verses with slight variations in wording and
one pair of adjacent verses switched in order, suggesting
not-quite-faithful transmission through the two lines leading to
these versions.1903 is less than 8 years after "Stack" Lee Shelton/Sheldon shot
Billy Lyons in Bill Curtis' saloon, St. Louis, Christmas night, 1895.
If the 1903 date were accepted, would this be the earliest known
version of "Stagolee"?Almost universally, the song says the killing is over Stack's Stetson
hat that Lyons either would not give back or spit in.  Eyewitnesses
described the horse-play involving hats that culminated in the
killing without mentioning spitting but verifying that Lyons took
give Shelton's hat and would not give it back - he wanted Shelton to
pay him "six bits" for his own derby, which Shelton had "broken."
Witnesses did not describe Shelton's hat as a Stetson (it doesn't
appear that they described it at all).  Gordon's mss contain a
version of the song (#304 or 804), and a similar one is quoted by
David without stating a source, that contains the following lines:They say he killed old Billy Lyons,
'Bout a dammed old Stetson hat...It was no Stetson hat.
He didn't have a good excuse.
They say he killed old Billy Lyons,
'Cause he gave his gal abuse.Fisher's 1910 version does not mention a Stetson, or any other, hat.I'm saddened by the possibility that Stack's hat wasn't a Stetson.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:18:29 -0700
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John:Yes, Gordon was VERY sensitive about the bawdy stuff he felt he had to
collect, so as to study oral tradition, but he would never share it with
others, even srious collectors, and was at great pains to shield those who
sent him such stuff.EdOn Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> Ed says
>
> >...I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's term paper....
>
> Why, if it were a term paper or thesis, would the author's name be omitted?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Oldest "Stackolee"? - Stack's Stetson?
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 14:31:35 -0700
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John:The 1903 Olesen version is the oldest I found.EdOn Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> The earliest version of "Stagalee" found by John Russell David dates
> from 1910, when it was sent to John Lomax by Ella Scott Fisher, San
> Antonio, Texas.
>
> According to David, on January 3, 1919, William Marion Reedy printed,
> in "Reedy's Mirror," a version of "Stackerlee" from D'Arcy Fanning of
> Muskogee, Oklahoma.  Fanning learned it from the "Three White Kuhns,"
> a vaudeville act.  Finger reprinted it later.  Robert W. Gordon saw
> evidence that this version was "corrupted by the hand of an author,"
> an interesting choice of words, perhaps.
>
> The "Kuhns" song is nearly identical with one in the Gordon
> collection, #3756, sent in June, 1929, by Charles E. Roe (Hudson,
> MA), bearing the heading "My version of Stackolee.  Writ(t)en down by
> Kenneth Olesen, Duluth, 1903."  The "Kuhns" and Olesen versions
> consist of the same 15 verses with slight variations in wording and
> one pair of adjacent verses switched in order, suggesting
> not-quite-faithful transmission through the two lines leading to
> these versions.
>
> 1903 is less than 8 years after "Stack" Lee Shelton/Sheldon shot
> Billy Lyons in Bill Curtis' saloon, St. Louis, Christmas night, 1895.
> If the 1903 date were accepted, would this be the earliest known
> version of "Stagolee"?
>
> Almost universally, the song says the killing is over Stack's Stetson
> hat that Lyons either would not give back or spit in.  Eyewitnesses
> described the horse-play involving hats that culminated in the
> killing without mentioning spitting but verifying that Lyons took
> give Shelton's hat and would not give it back - he wanted Shelton to
> pay him "six bits" for his own derby, which Shelton had "broken."
> Witnesses did not describe Shelton's hat as a Stetson (it doesn't
> appear that they described it at all).  Gordon's mss contain a
> version of the song (#304 or 804), and a similar one is quoted by
> David without stating a source, that contains the following lines:
>
> They say he killed old Billy Lyons,
> 'Bout a dammed old Stetson hat...
>
> It was no Stetson hat.
> He didn't have a good excuse.
> They say he killed old Billy Lyons,
> 'Cause he gave his gal abuse.
>
> Fisher's 1910 version does not mention a Stetson, or any other, hat.
>
> I'm saddened by the possibility that Stack's hat wasn't a Stetson.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: Re: Oldest "Stackolee"? - Stack's Stetson?
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 27 Jul 2001 00:16:13 -0500
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----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]><<I'm saddened by the possibility that Stack's hat wasn't a Stetson.>>Judge Nathan B. Young, of St. Louis, the first black district judge in our
history, did some research on Stack and his hat. According to some old folks
who claimed to know him (btw, the Judge lived to be something like 101 --
sorry, I digress) "Stag" Lee Sheldon had gone to a hoodoo lady for a spell
to increase his sexual prowess, and the talisman for the spell was his hat.
Accordingly, when William Lyon knocked the hat off of Sheldon's head
(according to the Globe-Democrat story, again btw, their original argument
was about politics -- I digress again) that was a pretty extreme insult, and
several folks told the Judge they thought Lyon had it coming.Peace,
Paul

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Subject: question from list member (fwd)
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:24:23 -0700
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Good People -- Particularly the Lurkers:I am printing below, with the sender's name stripped out, a back-channel
email I received this morning.Hi ed,
     I'm a ballad-l member who is not a ballad scholar, so I don't know who
you are talking about when you refer to "Gordon."  I just called a friend
of mine who knows a lot of this sort of stuff, and he said, Isabel Gordon.
Then, I just read your last message and you   referred to Gordon as "he,"
so I know that wasn't right.  So, I might as well ask you myself, without
bothering those people on the list, who know already.     Thanks.This is really an issue for our redoubtable list-mother, Marge Steiner,
but I would like to make clear my personal feelings about the matter.My point in posting the message to the list is to assure all the lurkers
or the intimidated that their questions are welcome.  Ballad-l members
have taught me much.I, for one, am glad to share what I have learned.So ask your questions, however dumb they might seem.  There are no dumb
questions; only dumb answers.Ed

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Subject: New release info from Claddagh Records
From: Claddagh Records <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:13:18 +0100
Content-Type:Text/Plain
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While changing computers recently, I deleted the list of people to whom I
send monthly lists of new Irish releases. I now need to start again from
scratch - so if you want to receive this information, please let me know.To those of you who don't know what I'm talking about, and who don't want to
know, I apologise for this mail. If I don't hear from you, this will be the
end of the matter.Finbar Boyle
Claddagh Records, Dame House, Dame Street, Dublin 2, Ireland.
Telephone +353 1 6778943. Fax +353 1 6793664.
http://indigo.ie/~claddagh/
Claddagh's wonderful record shop;
2 Cecilia Street, Temple Bar, Dublin 2.

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Subject: Re: question from list member (fwd)
From: Kathleen Conery <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 27 Jul 2001 11:25:12 -0500
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If I may, I'd like to give my thanks for Ed's, and *all* the list's
member's, cumulative knowledge and most generous spirit. I too am not a
ballad scholar, but I have learned much and been shown many new sources of
information by the amazing people on this list who have never made me feel
dumb for asking anything.
Kathleen--On Thursday, July 26, 2001 10:24 PM -0700 Ed Cray <[unmask]>
wrote:> Good People -- Particularly the Lurkers:
(snip)
> My point in posting the message to the list is to assure all the lurkers
> or the intimidated that their questions are welcome.  Ballad-l members
> have taught me much.
>
> I, for one, am glad to share what I have learned.
>
> So ask your questions, however dumb they might seem.  There are no dumb
> questions; only dumb answers.
>
> Ed--
Kathleen Conery
[unmask]

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Subject: Re: Oldest "Stackolee"? - Stack's Stetson?
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:39:40 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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At 12:16 AM -0500 7/27/01, Paul Stamler wrote:>Judge Nathan B. Young, of St. Louis, the first black district judge in our
>history, did some research on Stack and his hat. According to some old folks
>who claimed to know him (btw, the Judge lived to be something like 101 --
>sorry, I digress) "Stag" Lee Sheldon had gone to a hoodoo lady for a spell
>to increase his sexual prowess, and the talisman for the spell was his hat.
>Accordingly, when William Lyon knocked the hat off of Sheldon's head
>(according to the Globe-Democrat story, again btw, their original argument
>was about politics -- I digress again) that was a pretty extreme insult, and
>several folks told the Judge they thought Lyon had it coming.Nathan Young was certainly living in 1975, when J. R. David
interviewed him.  George M. Eberhart, in his article on Stagolee,
reproduces (in black and white, unfortunately) some paintings of
Stack from Young's collection.  As I recall, they were done by Young
himself.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: question from list member (fwd)
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 27 Jul 2001 13:42:55 -0400
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>      I'm a ballad-l member who is not a ballad scholar, so I don't know who
>you are talking about when you refer to "Gordon."...
>
>So ask your questions, however dumb they might seem.  There are no dumb
>questions; only dumb answers.
>
>Ed CrayMy apologies.  In the future I will try to identify people more
carefully in an early posting to a thread.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 27 Jul 2001 14:03:02 -0400
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But that sensitivity didn't involve excluding material from his
files, which contain names, dates, etc., freely.At 2:18 PM -0700 7/26/01, Ed Cray wrote:>Yes, Gordon was VERY sensitive about the bawdy stuff he felt he had to
>collect, so as to study oral tradition, but he would never share it with
>others, even srious collectors, and was at great pains to shield those who
>sent him such stuff.
>
>On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:
>
>>  Ed says
>>
>>  >...I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's
>>term paper....
>>
>  > Why, if it were a term paper or thesis, would the author's name be omitted?--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Hump-house
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 27 Jul 2001 15:21:16 -0700
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John:That may be a vestige of his integrity.  There is no question --as
Kodish's biography of R.W. Gordon notes -- that he was squeamish about the
bawdry.  He was, after all, a man of the 19th C.EdOn Fri, 27 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:> But that sensitivity didn't involve excluding material from his
> files, which contain names, dates, etc., freely.
>
> At 2:18 PM -0700 7/26/01, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> >Yes, Gordon was VERY sensitive about the bawdy stuff he felt he had to
> >collect, so as to study oral tradition, but he would never share it with
> >others, even srious collectors, and was at great pains to shield those who
> >sent him such stuff.
> >
> >On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, John Garst wrote:
> >
> >>  Ed says
> >>
> >>  >...I would bet that the "Songs and Fragments" was a student's
> >>term paper....
> >>
> >  > Why, if it were a term paper or thesis, would the author's name be omitted?
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

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Subject: John Henry and "Cruzee Mountain" in Alabama
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 30 Jul 2001 15:52:51 -0400
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Guy Johnson and Louis Chappell discussed a cluster of reports placing
John Henry in Alabama at Cruzee (or Cursey) Mountain Tunnel.  Even
though both finally dismissed these stories in favor of Big Bend
tunnel, Chappell notes, "Neither Cruzee Mountain nor the tunnel has
yet been found in West Virginia, or near that state, but his (Frank
Shay's) heroic sketch presumably allows one anywhere.  As his
authority for John Henry, he (Shay) cites Dr. Johnson, who is still
trying to find Cruzee Mountain in Alabama."  Brett Williams, in John
Henry: A Bio-Bibliography, reviews the Johnson/Chappell material, how
his failure to find Cruzee (Cursey) Mountain troubled Johnson, and
how Johnson suspected that "Cruzee" might have been a vestige of
"Santa Cruz," mountains in Jamaica, where localized John Henry
stories also flourish.I believe that I have found "Cruzee (Cursey)" Mountain Tunnel in
Alabama.  Here is the poop from a WWW search.>To: <[unmask]>
>Subject: SE: C of G
>From: "Ron Mele" <[unmask]>
>Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 17:44:02 -0600
>Sender: [unmask]
>
>I was wondering if anyone could comment on a rumor I heard
>concerning Norfolk Southern's ex- C of G line between Columbus, GA
>and Leeds, AL. As most of you know, a part of that line laid dormant
>for several years with the rest of the railroad used only for local
>service. Last year, NS opened the line again to through traffic and
>made some noise about spending money to upgrade the railroad. Now, a
>fairly reliable source has told me that NS can't justify the expense
>of trying to enlarge the Double Oak Mountain and Coosa Mountain
>tunnels and rebuild the bridge at Childersburg and will probably
>sell the railroad to a shortline operator. Has anyone heard about
>this?
>
>Ron MeleWith a name passed along orally, among illiterate people, southern
speech could easily have converted "Coosa" to "Cursey" to "Cruzee."
Supporting this nomination is the fact that there is a railroad
tunnel through Coosa Mountain.  C. C. Spencer claimed that John Henry
Dabner "was a native of Holly Springs, Mississippi, and was shipped
to the Cruzee mountain tunnel, Alabama, to work on the A. G. S.
Railway in the year of 1880."  Spencer says that he raced the steam
drill on 20 September 1882.  While this is 10 years later than the
construction of the Great Bend Tunnel on the C&O, I know nothing
about the ballad or surrounding facts that would exclude an origin
this late.--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: John Henry, Coosa Mountain Tunnel
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:32:06 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Cline, Wayne
Alabama Railroads
University of Alabama Press
Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0380
1997
p 148:"The L&N's most notable challenger (in building and operating rail
connections to Birmingham and vicinity) was the Central Railroad &
Banking Company of Georgia, headed by the savvy William M. Wadley.
The mineral frenzy attracted Wadley's eye and he made plans to extend
the Central into the Birmingham District.  The Central Railroad &
Banking Company had already made an incursion into the state by
investing in the Western Railway of Alabama.  This gave the Central a
terminal at Opelika from which a line could be launched into
Jefferson County."Milton Smith (a vice president of L&N in 1882 - acting president in
1884-1886 - strongly committed to the development of mineral
resources in the Birmingham area) worried that competitors could
invade L&N territory by absorbing and rehabilitating derelict lines
left in the wake of the panic of '73.  This is exactly what the
Central Railroad & Banking Company did when the Columbus & Western
Railway, one of man Central subsidiaries, purchased the Savannah &
Memphis Railroad in 1880.  The Savannah & Memphis was the latest of
many aborted attempts to connect Opelika with Talladega.  The line
was originally chartered to the antebellum Opelika & Talladega
Railroad and 54.9 miles had actually been constructed between Opelika
and Goodwater when it was acquired.  After also purchasing the
Western of Alabama's Opelika-Columbus branch outright in 1882, the
Columbus & Western was able to finish the sixty-eight miles of
trackage from Goodwater to Birmingham in 1888.  This line, like
others in the mineral region, cut through some rugged country, and
required a 2,431-foot-long tunnel at Coosa Mountain as well as a
1,198-foot-long penetration of Oak Mountain."The parenthetical material in the paragraphs above are mine. - JFGI previously wrote:>C. C. Spencer claimed that John Henry Dabner "was a native of Holly
>Springs, Mississippi, and was shipped to the Cruzee mountain tunnel,
>Alabama, to work on the A. G. S. Railway in the year of 1880."
>Spencer says that he raced the steam drill on 20 September 1882.Spencer also said that the contractor was Shea & Dabner, that John
Henry Dabner was probably born a slave to the Dabner family, and that
John Brown was the famouns steel driver of "the Big Ben tunnel fame,"
but that John Brown never raced a steam drill.F. P. Baker, Birmingham, AL, stated that he was "driving steel on Red
Mountain (outside of Birmingham) at the time this Happen about 45
years ago sowm where about that time...John Henry was on Cursey
Mountain tunnel...."Glendora Cannon Cummings said, "My Uncle Gus (the man who raised my
father) was working by John Henry and saw him when he beat the steam
drill and fell dead.  This was in the year 1887.  It was at Oak
Mountain Alabama.  They were working for Shay and Dabney, the meanest
white contractors at that time...Both my Uncle Gus and my father were
steel drivers...my Uncle Gus and John Henry were friends."Taking 1926 as the date of Baker's letter (I'm uncertain - Johnson
doesn't give that information) and going back 45 years leads us to
1881 (or "somewhere about that time").Thus we have times from ca 1881 to 1888 (when the Goodwater to
Birmingham line, along which Coosa and Oak Mountains lie) was
completed.  Although the 1882 date given by Spencer could be correct,
I suppose, it falls suspiciously close to the purchase, by Columbus &
Western, of Western of Alabama's Opelika-Columbus branch, given above
as 1882.  I'll have to do some more digging to find the construction
dates for Coosa and Oak Mountain Tunnels.
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Trivia
From: "W. B. OLSON" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:[unmask]
Date:Sun, 1 Jul 2001 23:01:00 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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In Bruce A. Rosenberg's checklist of the Virginia WPA collection of
folksongs, 'The Folksongs of Virginia' there is one collected by
Raymond Sloan from an informant at Whitetop Mountain, VA, in
1939, #334 A, "The Dying Cowboy". Sloan had collected several
songs from some singers he had located, but only this one from
this singer, a Dr. Robert Winslow Gordon. [former 1st head of
Library of Congress Folklore Archive]Bruce OlsonOld British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.

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Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 2 Jul 2001 10:09:07 -0400
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Thanks, Norm.  I've been away baby-sitting, a pleasure when you have
a 2-2/3-year-old granddaughter who is a genius, of course, and who
will no doubt be a Miss America as well a President.Buckley lists Albert (88 versions) and Johnny (111) as dominating,
but he cites versions with Alvin, Alfred, Alfie (Australian, I
think), Archie, Corney (probably from a confusion or mixture with
"Delia," i.e., "Cooney and Delia"), Pauly, Pearl, Iva, Henry, Walter,
and Frankie (in a few versions where Johnnie is the woman).
(Buckley, Frankie and Her Men, p 44)>I did listen to it with that in mind (for another purpose I had recently put
>all the versions I have--about 80--on 4 CDs), and I'm reasonably sure he
>says Albert, not Al Britt (but that is a pretty tough call).    However,
>interestingly, Roba Stanley (1924) calls him Alvin (several times).
>NC
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Garst" <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, June 25, 2001 12:41 PM
>Subject: Re: Missing Link Found
>
>
>>  >Tommy Jarrell's version, "Frankie Baker," has a similar stanza with her
>full
>>  >first name and "Albert"  (on County 741, rec. 1973)....
>>
>>  Someone else pointed this out to me, and indeed, I think I had
>>  noticed it several years ago and forgotten about it.  However, the
>>  other person who pointed it out also claims that he sings "Al Britt."
>>  My response to that is that if it were true, then I would suspect
>>  that old Tommy got wind of the facts of the case (after all, they
>>  were widely publicized in the period 1930-42, first through John
>>  Huston's work and then through Frankie's lawsuits over movies) and
>>  altered his traditional version to fit the facts.  I haven't gotten
>>  around to listening again to the Jarrell version yet.
>>
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]
>>--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Trivia
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Mon, 2 Jul 2001 08:54:13 -0700
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Bruce:Droll.EdOn Sun, 1 Jul 2001, W. B. OLSON wrote:> In Bruce A. Rosenberg's checklist of the Virginia WPA collection of
> folksongs, 'The Folksongs of Virginia' there is one collected by
> Raymond Sloan from an informant at Whitetop Mountain, VA, in
> 1939, #334 A, "The Dying Cowboy". Sloan had collected several
> songs from some singers he had located, but only this one from
> this singer, a Dr. Robert Winslow Gordon. [former 1st head of
> Library of Congress Folklore Archive]
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old British Isles popular and folk songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my no-spam website - www.erols.com/olsonw or
> just <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>
> Motto: Keep it up; muddling through always works.
>

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Subject: Child on eBay
From: John Roberts <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 02:19:51 -0400
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Should anyone need to complete a set (or start one) vol.4 of the
Dover paperback Child is up on eBay with a starting bid of $29.99. No
takers so far.John Roberts.

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Subject: who was Bauldie Scrimezour?
From: Jack Campin <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:21:40 +0100
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This comes from A Collection of Twenty-Four Scots Songs (1796) by
John Hamilton (NLS Glen.311).  Hamilton says that the source couldn't
remember anything past somewhere in the third verse (presumably the
first six lines), the rest being completed in a generic ballad-by-
numbers manner (well, at least he realized what he'd done and told us).He mentions Scrimezour as if we were all supposed to know who he was.
Does anybody?This doesn't have a lot to do with any of the more familiar Frenet Ha'
ballads, does it?Original spelling unedited.X:1
T:Frenet Ha'
C:Bauldie Scrimezour
M:3/4
L:1/8
K:GMin
"Slow & Moving"
(D^F)|G2  G2  A  c| d4      (d/=e/f)|(dc) (BA) G  c|({B}A4)
(G^F)|G2 (GA) B> c| d4      (d/=e/f)|(dc) (BA) G ^F|    G4||
(d>f)|g2  g2  a> g|(f>d) d2 (d/=e/f)|(dc) (BA) G> c|({B}A4)
(G^F)|G2 (GA) B> c| d2   d2 (d/=e/f)|(dc) (BA) G ^F|    G4|]Quhair wile I lay my hede,
Quhair lay my bodie doune,
Qhairfor na am I died,
Sen' wandrin' I bene bown;
O! Marie ze war fairer
than ony goud or gear;
O! bot my hert is sairer
than't has bene mony zeir.O! blythsom was the wi time,
That I hae spent wi thee,
Aft kiss't that cheik o' thyne,
As ze sat on my knee.
But cauld's thy bodie now Marie,
O! dull thy blinkin' E'e,
Quhairfor do I here tarry,
An' canna win to thee.He sat doune on a stane,
His hame was far awa;
He sicht an' made a mane,
An sicht O! Frenet Ha'.
Syne drew his schairp Sword frae its shethe,
It gleitert wi' the Sun,
An ay he cry'd dear Mary,
My Love to thee I come.(2 more verses added by editor).-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin  *   11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
tel 0131 660 4760  *  fax 0870 055 4975  *  http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/
food intolerance data & recipes, freeware Mac logic fonts, and Scottish music

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Subject: Re: Child on eBay
From: Linn Schulz <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:59:15 -0700
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--- John Roberts <[unmask]> wrote:
> Should anyone need to complete a set (or start one)
> vol.4 of the
> Dover paperback Child is up on eBay with a starting
> bid of $29.99. No takers so far.Figures -- we need volume 3 of the Dover trade paper
edition to complete our set.Linn__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Subject: Communal Composition
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:44:03 -0400
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Somehow this,"Written and sung during the Women's CRW world record attempts.
mainly by Audrey Alexander, Cheryl Michaels, Wendy Faulkner and Karen Young,"which can be found at
http://www.eco.utexas.edu/faculty/Faulkner/songs/crw/cancan.html ,reminded me of the "communal composition" wars, about which I've read
a little, but a very little, and have remained mystified.Can someone summarize the main positions, arguments, and ultimate
resolution for me?
--
john garst    [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Communal Composition
From: Sandy Ives <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Tue, 3 Jul 2001 18:00:27 -0400
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Communal composition is indeed mystifying, even goofy sometimes, and
no-one had more fun explaining all this than D.K. Wilgus in his
ANGLO-AMERICAN FOLKSONG SCHOLARSHIP (PP.3-122).  A romp through those two
chapters will tell you much more than you want to know, but you'll never
be sorry for the time spent.Sandy Ives

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Subject: Re: Child on eBay
From: Sandy Paton <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 4 Jul 2001 00:21:56 -0400
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Hang on, Linn. I think that may be the one volume I have left on my
shelf. I'll get back to you on it.
        Sandy PatonLinn Schulz wrote:> --- John Roberts <[unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Should anyone need to complete a set (or start one)
>> vol.4 of the
>> Dover paperback Child is up on eBay with a starting
>> bid of $29.99. No takers so far.
>
>
> Figures -- we need volume 3 of the Dover trade paper
> edition to complete our set.
>
> Linn
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

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Subject: Re: who was Bauldie Scrimezour?
From: Nigel Gatherer <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Wed, 4 Jul 2001 14:34:26 +0100
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Jack Campin wrote:> He mentions Scrimezour as if we were all supposed to know who he was.
> Does anybody?I'm pretty sure I've come across his name somewhere before, but I can't
remember off-hand. It'll come back, but I may need to look through some
books, and they're in Edinburgh. It's possible he's mention in one of
the Glasgow Poet's Box broadsides, or perhaps in the Whistlebinkie
collection - I'll have a look and report back.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
[unmask]
http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/gatherer/

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Subject: Happy woody Guthrie's birthday
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 13 Jul 2001 17:02:15 -0500
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Tomorrow, Saturday, July 14th, is Woody Guthrie's birthday.  So, have a
happy one!        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

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Subject: Re: Happy woody Guthrie's birthday
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 13 Jul 2001 15:06:21 -0700
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Marge:Had he lived, Woody would be 89 tomorrow.EdOn Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Marge Steiner wrote:> Tomorrow, Saturday, July 14th, is Woody Guthrie's birthday.  So, have a
> happy one!
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>

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Subject: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Brent Cantrell <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:09:04 -0400
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Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville will
air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice and
music coach.You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htmBrent Cantrell
Knoxville

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: "Donald A. Duncan" <[unmask]>
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Date:Fri, 13 Jul 2001 22:48:27 -0400
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Brent Cantrell wrote:
>
> Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville will
> air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
> talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice and
> music coach.
>
> You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htmAny comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
love story, but the music was good...-Don Duncan

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 06:12:51 -0700
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Donald:Hokey?  No, but as a film it _is_ slow since the action stops for the
musical selections.  And they are good.  Lovingly sung.Still, the end credits state the story in the film was inspired by,
sparked by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil Sharp.And Janet McAteer is one of the finest actresses working today.  Too bad
her "co-star," Aidan Quinn, is not in her league.EdOn Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Donald A. Duncan wrote:> Brent Cantrell wrote:
> >
> > Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville will
> > air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
> > talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice and
> > music coach.
> >
> > You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htm
>
> Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> love story, but the music was good...
>
> -Don Duncan
>

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Marge Steiner <[unmask]>
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Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:36:53 -0500
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I'd guessed that the film might have been based on either Maude Karpeles or
Olive Dame Campbell.  It's still not playing here, though.  Was there a love
interest between Olive Dame Campbell and Sharp?  Of course, both of them
were married to others.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Ed Cray
Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:13 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay AdamsDonald:Hokey?  No, but as a film it _is_ slow since the action stops for the
musical selections.  And they are good.  Lovingly sung.Still, the end credits state the story in the film was inspired by,
sparked by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil Sharp.And Janet McAteer is one of the finest actresses working today.  Too bad
her "co-star," Aidan Quinn, is not in her league.EdOn Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Donald A. Duncan wrote:> Brent Cantrell wrote:
> >
> > Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville
will
> > air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
> > talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice
and
> > music coach.
> >
> > You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htm
>
> Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> love story, but the music was good...
>
> -Don Duncan
>

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: "Robert B. Waltz" <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:19:24 -0500
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On 7/14/01, Ed Cray wrote:[ ... ]>Still, the end credits state the story in the film was inspired by,
>sparked by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil Sharp.No love triangle with Maud Karpeles? C'mon, this is Hollywood. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

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Subject: Songcatcher and Shiela Kay Adams
From: Bev and Jerry <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:22:13 -0700
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Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 14:21:53 -0700
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Marge et al:No, there is no love interest between the characters of "Campbell" and
"Sharp" in the movie.  Their alter egos are together, on screen, only in
the last scenes.EdOn Sat, 14 Jul 2001, Marge Steiner wrote:> I'd guessed that the film might have been based on either Maude Karpeles or
> Olive Dame Campbell.  It's still not playing here, though.  Was there a love
> interest between Olive Dame Campbell and Sharp?  Of course, both of them
> were married to others.
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
> Behalf Of Ed Cray
> Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 8:13 AM
> To: [unmask]
> Subject: Re: Songcatcher and Sheila Kay Adams
>
>
> Donald:
>
> Hokey?  No, but as a film it _is_ slow since the action stops for the
> musical selections.  And they are good.  Lovingly sung.
>
> Still, the end credits state the story in the film was inspired by,
> sparked by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil Sharp.
>
> And Janet McAteer is one of the finest actresses working today.  Too bad
> her "co-star," Aidan Quinn, is not in her league.
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Jul 2001, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
>
> > Brent Cantrell wrote:
> > >
> > > Sheila Kay Adam's March 2001 concert at the Laurel Theater in Knoxville
> will
> > > air on "Live at Laurel" on WDVX, Sunday, 7/15/01 at 7:00pm EST.  Sheila
> > > talks a some length about Songcatcher and her work on the film as voice
> and
> > > music coach.
> > >
> > > You can hear it on the net at http://www.wdvx.com/new_page_1.htm
> >
> > Any comments on Songcatcher?  It's playing here in Cambridge.  A friend
> > who saw it said it was hokey, with composite characters and a trumped-up
> > love story, but the music was good...
> >
> > -Don Duncan
> >
>

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Subject: Re: Songcatcher - a wonderful effort
From: Trad Man <[unmask]>
Reply-To:Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Date:Sat, 14 Jul 2001 18:01:43 EDT
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This movie may be one of the best attempts to bring traditional music to an
ignorant audience since Steel-Eye Span entered the British Rock scene.  It
works very well as a "Hollywood" vehicle.  It has all the required "P.C"
trappings and yet truly captures the concept of Mountain folk as an isolated
and alien culture, which it surely must have been before the days of radio
and public transport.  There are some flaws, but they are minor.  But it is
most definitely fiction, and should not be expected to stand up to any
historical scrutiny.  The music is lovely, and the singing superb.  I would
have liked for more complete song renditions, but then it would not have as
much appeal to a wider audience.

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