Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> Ed Cray wrote:
> >
> > Folks:
> >
> > Does anyone have an email address for Stephen Wade?  I tried to write him
> > this morning and got a "permanent fatal error" noting that his server,
> > ibm.net, had disappeared.
> >
> > Incidentally, Stephen was responsible for the history of the talking blues
> > broadcast on "All Things Considered" yesterday (3/23).  (I am trying to
> > gain a copy of the six-minute segment.)
> >
> > Ed
>
> New address on the way by email. Did you hear him on NPR's 'All thing
> considered' last night? History of the blues for administrators with a
> slightly more than normal 5 minute attention span (~8 minutes)
>
> Bruce Olson
>Sorry for the duplication. I sent his address off before I read the
whole message.Bruce Olson
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Segments from NPR programs can be accessed at http://www.npr.org; or to
obtain a tape, send to [unmask]Happy Springtime  -  Tom>Folks:
>
>Does anyone have an email address for Stephen Wade?  I tried to write him
>this morning and got a "permanent fatal error" noting that his server,
>ibm.net, had disappeared.
>
>Incidentally, Stephen was responsible for the history of the talking blues
>broadcast on "All Things Considered" yesterday (3/23).  (I am trying to
>gain a copy of the six-minute segment.)
>
>Ed

On Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:34:31PM -0500, Bruce Olson wrote:
...
> Ancient news (1997) that I think I mentioned once before. Dr. Emily Lyle
> is working on an edition of the Harris MS. She has a collaborator that
> apparently teachs music at Univ. of Oregon.        That might be Ann Dhu McLucas, former president of the SEM (Society for
Ethnomusicology).  I haven't heard from her for several years, though.  Nor
Emily Lyle, for that matter.  -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Cal & Lani Herrmann wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2001 at 07:34:31PM -0500, Bruce Olson wrote:
> ...
> > Ancient news (1997) that I think I mentioned once before. Dr. Emily Lyle
> > is working on an edition of the Harris MS. She has a collaborator that
> > apparently teachs music at Univ. of Oregon.
>
>         That might be Ann Dhu McLucas, former president of the SEM (Society for
> Ethnomusicology).  I haven't heard from her for several years, though.  Nor
> Emily Lyle, for that matter.  -- Aloha, Lani
>
> <||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
> <||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360Correct, and I, too, haven't heard from either for several years.Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

I thought I'd mention something that might be of interest to a
few besides the English, and that is the James Carpenter
collection of early field recordings in Great Britain, in the
Library of Congress. There's a  duplicate of the collection at
EFDSS'a Cecil Sharp House, and the English seem to have paid much
more attention to the collection than Americans or Scots. Since
Joe Hickerson isn't on this list, I'll just sort of introduce it
with the little I know about it, and hope someone can continue
(or correct) it.With a portable (battery operated) recorder James Carpenter went
to Great Britain and recorded many traditional songs. Some in
England but most in Scotland, and he recorded from a number of
the singers that Gavin Grieg and the Rev. Duncan had collected
from, and whose songs are in the 'Greig-Duncan Folk Song
Collection'.The recordings are noisy and the drive speed wasn't constant, and
they aren't much to listen to in their original state (I've heard
only a few), but modern technology can cut out most of the noise
and get rid of most of the 'wow' and slowdown (as batterys died).
The hitch is that electronic engineers that can do this don't
come cheap, nor is the equiptment cheap. [A .WAV file of a long
old ballad of 10 minutes length with 22KHZ bandwidth would be 13
Megawords and the Fourier transform would have twice that. We
could probably cut the bandwidth with by a factor of 2, and
possibly 4 for old recordings, but the Fourier transform would
still be longer than that handled by the best modern Fourier
transform spectrometers (with the possible exception of 1 in
Paris that didn't work well, the last I heard).]The last I saw it, the Library of Congress's index to the
collection was in dire need of retyping.Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

In the Cambric Shirt (Elfin Knight, C2), a man asks a woman to make him a
cambric shirt, which would be a very great effort on her part. I recall
hearing that such a request is in effect a proposal of marriage. True?
  Pete Brady

In a message dated 23/03/2001  20:51:02, you write:<< Thanks John
  I couldn't do any better than place "Star of the County Down" as after
 c 1875. Would you hazard a rough guess at its date? {c 1925?)
 Bruce Olson >>Anything has to be very conjectural and I hesitate to guess without a few
more ranging shots. Hughes' prefaces make it clear that he had no idea of the
authorship - thus it had probably been in circulation for an appreciable time
in 1936. c 1925 would be reasonable I think but it might be earlier. I'll see
if I can find anything more - the lecture was published by Colm as one of his
Three Candles Press pamphlets and I'll check it once more for clues. His
ballad collection is at NUI Dublin and there may be more papers there.John Moulden

[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 23/03/2001  20:51:02, you write:
>
> << Thanks John
>   I couldn't do any better than place "Star of the County Down" as after
>  c 1875. Would you hazard a rough guess at its date? {c 1925?)
>  Bruce Olson >>
>
> Anything has to be very conjectural and I hesitate to guess without a few
> more ranging shots. Hughes' prefaces make it clear that he had no idea of the
> authorship - thus it had probably been in circulation for an appreciable time
> in 1936. c 1925 would be reasonable I think but it might be earlier. I'll see
> if I can find anything more - the lecture was published by Colm as one of his
> Three Candles Press pamphlets and I'll check it once more for clues. His
> ballad collection is at NUI Dublin and there may be more papers there.
>
> John MouldenMany Thanks,
Bruce Olson--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

In his Additions and Corrections to the English & Scottish Popular Ballads
(final volume), Child remarked:"Of the custom of a maid's making a shirt for her betrothed, see L. Pineau
in Revue des Traditions Populaires, XI, 68. A man's asking a maid to sew him
a shirt is equivalent to asking for her love, and her consent to sew the
shirt to an acceptance of the suitor. See, for examples, Grundtvig, III,
918. When the elf in "Elveskud", D9, Grundtvig, II, 116, offers to give Ole
a shirt of silk, it is meant as a love-token; Ole responds that his true
love has already given him one. The shirt demanded by the Elfin Knight may
be fairly understood to have this significance, as Grundtvig has suggested.
So, possibly, in "Clerk Colville", No.42, A5, I, 387, considering the
relation of "Clerk Colville" and "Elveskud."Peter and Iona Opie (Oxford Book of Nursery Rhymes, #86: "Can You Make Me a
Cambric Shirt") quoted Child, but didn't add any further information about
shirts. For what it's worth, I'm told that they are much harder to make than
most articles of clothing, even *with* seams.Malcolm Douglas

Folks:Where or where have I read something about the Carpenter collection
actually being edited for publication?  Does anyone know more about this
project and when we might see it in boards?Ditto the last volume of the Grieg-Duncan seven volumes.  I understood
that an index was in the offing.EdOn Sun, 25 Mar 2001, Bruce Olson wrote:> I thought I'd mention something that might be of interest to a
> few besides the English, and that is the James Carpenter
> collection of early field recordings in Great Britain, in the
> Library of Congress. There's a  duplicate of the collection at
> EFDSS'a Cecil Sharp House, and the English seem to have paid much
> more attention to the collection than Americans or Scots. Since
> Joe Hickerson isn't on this list, I'll just sort of introduce it
> with the little I know about it, and hope someone can continue
> (or correct) it.
>
> With a portable (battery operated) recorder James Carpenter went
> to Great Britain and recorded many traditional songs. Some in
> England but most in Scotland, and he recorded from a number of
> the singers that Gavin Grieg and the Rev. Duncan had collected
> from, and whose songs are in the 'Greig-Duncan Folk Song
> Collection'.
>
> The recordings are noisy and the drive speed wasn't constant, and
> they aren't much to listen to in their original state (I've heard
> only a few), but modern technology can cut out most of the noise
> and get rid of most of the 'wow' and slowdown (as batterys died).
> The hitch is that electronic engineers that can do this don't
> come cheap, nor is the equiptment cheap. [A .WAV file of a long
> old ballad of 10 minutes length with 22KHZ bandwidth would be 13
> Megawords and the Fourier transform would have twice that. We
> could probably cut the bandwidth with by a factor of 2, and
> possibly 4 for old recordings, but the Fourier transform would
> still be longer than that handled by the best modern Fourier
> transform spectrometers (with the possible exception of 1 in
> Paris that didn't work well, the last I heard).]
>
> The last I saw it, the Library of Congress's index to the
> collection was in dire need of retyping.
>
> Bruce Olson
> --
> Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>

Julia Bishop at the University of Sheffield is working on the
collection.  I'm not sure where she is with the project at the moment
but can e-mail her to find out.Cheers
Jamie

Re Greig Duncan.Volume Eight is being edited by Emily Lyle and Katherine Campbell. It
should appear in a few months, and will incorporate a full index, notes on
the principal contributors, etcEwan McVicar"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!" 
AnonEwan McVicar, 84 High Street
Linlithgow, EH49 7AQ
tel 01506 847935Webpage <http://members.jings.com/~storyteller>

Jamie:It would be nice to know what is afoot.  Can she write something you might
post?EdOn Tue, 27 Mar 2001, James Moreira wrote:> Julia Bishop at the University of Sheffield is working on the
> collection.  I'm not sure where she is with the project at the moment
> but can e-mail her to find out.
>
> Cheers
> Jamie
>

Ewan:Will you or someone close to the project make an announcement when the
volume becomes available?As I recall, four or five us got together under the guidance of Abby Sale
to purchase the first seven volumes at a discount.Abby, can we do the same this time?EdOn Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Ewan McVicar wrote:> Re Greig Duncan.
>
> Volume Eight is being edited by Emily Lyle and Katherine Campbell. It
> should appear in a few months, and will incorporate a full index, notes on
> the principal contributors, etc
>
> Ewan McVicar
>
> "Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!"
> Anon
>
> Ewan McVicar, 84 High Street
> Linlithgow, EH49 7AQ
> tel 01506 847935
>
> Webpage <http://members.jings.com/~storyteller>
>

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I'm not in this list but Steve Roud kindly forwarded the original
> message to me.  I'm not sure what, if anything, prompted it, but I
> can add quite a bit more to Bruce's posting.
>
> Bruce is right to flag up the existence of this amazing collection.
> Carpenter (1888-1983) was a native of Mississippi  who gained a
> doctorate from Harvard in 1929 for his thesis on sea shanties.  The
> bulk of the material in the collection dates from the period 1929-35
> when he was funded by Harvard to undertake fieldwork in Britain.
> The remaining material comes from a preliminary visit to Britain in
> 1929, fieldwork in the US in 1927-28, and material from his
> American summer school and college students from the period
> 1935-55.
>
> During his six-year sojourn in Britain, Carpenter divided his time
> largely between England and Scotland.  He visited singers from
> whom Greig and Duncan had collected and also from whom Sharp
> collected, and he came across others who were later recorded by
> Hamish Henderson and Kenneth Goldstein.  In addition, he found
> many other singers from whom no songs had previously been
> collected, including in particular an octogenarian woman from
> Aberdeenshire called Bell Duncan, with a large repertoire of
> ballads, some of them rare in tradition.  The collection is also
> significant in terms of the folk plays which Carpenter recorded from
> ex-performers.
>
> The collection consists of roughly 700 texts and 850 tunes of Child
> ballads, 500 sea songs, 1000 other songs and ballads (texts and
> tunes), 200 children's singing games and nursery songs, 300
> mummers' play, and a handful of folk tales, plus lists and indexes,
> information about local customs, correspondence, drafts of public
> lectures, newspaper articles, miscellaneous notes and so on.
>
> Despite his intentions, Carpenter never managed to publish the
> collection, and it was bought by the Library of Congress in 1972 at
> which time Alan Jabbour conducted a fascinating interview with
> Carpenter about his fieldwork experiences.  Further information
> about the Collection and about Carpenter is available in a special
> issue of _Folk Music Journal_, Volume 7, Number 4 (1998).
> Copies of this issue are available from the Vaughan Williams
> Memorial Library of the English Folk Dance and Song Society.
>
> As Bruce mentions, Carpenter used the Dictaphone to record
> items from his informants.  He later copied the recordings to 12
> inch discs and it is these which were copied to form the very noisy
> and variable-speed recordings which Bruce will had listened to.
> The good news is that the Archive of Folk Culture at the Library of
> Congress now has funding to go back to the Dictaphone cylinders
> and make preservation copies of those.    The hope is that the
> variable speeds can be sorted out and that better reproduction can
> be gained from these original recordings.
>
> In addition (sorry this note is so long!), we have just gained a grant
> from the British Arts and Humanities Research Board to produce
> an online catalogue of the Collection.  The work will commence on
> 1 July of this year and will be based at the University of Sheffield in
> collaboration with the University of Aberdeen.  The project is due to
> last 16 months.  A team of researchers will be working on the
> project which we hope will be the first step towards the eventual
> publication of the collection.
>
> If anyone would like further details of the project or the collection,
> please don't hesitate to contact me.
>
> Good wishes,
>
> Julia (Bishop)
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
> > To: <[unmask]>
> > Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 10:55 PM
> > Subject: James Carpenter collection
> >
> >
> > > I thought I'd mention something that might be of interest to a
> > > few besides the English, and that is the James Carpenter
> > > collection of early field recordings in Great Britain, in the
> > > Library of Congress. There's a  duplicate of the collection at
> > > EFDSS'a Cecil Sharp House, and the English seem to have paid much
> > > more attention to the collection than Americans or Scots. Since
> > > Joe Hickerson isn't on this list, I'll just sort of introduce it
> > > with the little I know about it, and hope someone can continue
> > > (or correct) it.
> > >
> > > With a portable (battery operated) recorder James Carpenter went
> > > to Great Britain and recorded many traditional songs. Some in
> > > England but most in Scotland, and he recorded from a number of
> > > the singers that Gavin Grieg and the Rev. Duncan had collected
> > > from, and whose songs are in the 'Greig-Duncan Folk Song
> > > Collection'.
> > >
> > > The recordings are noisy and the drive speed wasn't constant, and
> > > they aren't much to listen to in their original state (I've heard
> > > only a few), but modern technology can cut out most of the noise
> > > and get rid of most of the 'wow' and slowdown (as batterys died).
> > > The hitch is that electronic engineers that can do this don't
> > > come cheap, nor is the equiptment cheap. [A .WAV file of a long
> > > old ballad of 10 minutes length with 22KHZ bandwidth would be 13
> > > Megawords and the Fourier transform would have twice that. We
> > > could probably cut the bandwidth with by a factor of 2, and
> > > possibly 4 for old recordings, but the Fourier transform would
> > > still be longer than that handled by the best modern Fourier
> > > transform spectrometers (with the possible exception of 1 in
> > > Paris that didn't work well, the last I heard).]
> > >
> > > The last I saw it, the Library of Congress's index to the
> > > collection was in dire need of retyping.
> > >
> > > Bruce Olson
> > > --
> > > Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> > > ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> > > or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
> >
>
>
> ------- End of forwarded message -------
>
>
>
> Julia C. Bishop (Dr)
> National Centre for English Cultural Tradition
> University of Sheffield
> Sheffield  S10 2TN
> U.K.
>
> Tel: (Direct Line) 0114 222 6295
> (PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A FURTHER NEW NUMBER!)
> (NATCECT Office) 0114 222 6296
>
> E-mail: [unmask]

EdWhen Vol 8 appears you should be able to hear the cheering from wherever
you stand.I will certainly be geting the information out, and I would hope there will
be events to mark the final step!Ewan"Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!" 
AnonEwan McVicar, 84 High Street
Linlithgow, EH49 7AQ
tel 01506 847935Webpage <http://members.jings.com/~storyteller>

Ewan McVicar wrote:
>
> Ed
>
> When Vol 8 appears you should be able to hear the cheering from wherever
> you stand.
>
> I will certainly be geting the information out, and I would hope there will
> be events to mark the final step!
>
> Ewan
>
> "Nostalgia isn't what it used to be!"
> Anon
>
> Ewan McVicar, 84 High Street
> Linlithgow, EH49 7AQ
> tel 01506 847935
>
> Webpage <http://members.jings.com/~storyteller>My order for vol. 8 of 'The Greig Duncan Folk Song Collection' has been
to the distributor/ publisher James Thin/ Mercat Press for a couple on
months now. Just search on a web search engine for 'Mercat Press' and
you'll find it.Bruce Olson--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

I just received notice from our listserv administrator, informing me that IU
listservs will be out of commission tomorrow, March 29th, so that security
patches can be installed.  I don't know how long we'll be out of service,
but I'll let you all know when we're back on.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

THis is another test. PLease ignore.

Your message was received here.  are you getting transmissions yourself?        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of dick greenhaus
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 11:32 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: test transmissionTHis is another test. PLease ignore.

Hi, folks.  Our listserv is back in action, so please keep the postings
coming.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

I'm told on good authority that the sealed vaults of Celtic Music are
becoming unsealed, and some of the Good Old Stuff is beginning to appear
on CD. Needless to say (I hope) Camsco Music will be offering them for
sale in the US once they're out.
If anyone know an URL for whoever's in charge of this operation I can
speed up my part of it. It's good news in any case.
dick greenhaus

Dick:Pardon my ignorance: what "sealed vaults"?  Who/what is Leader Recordings.EdOn Fri, 30 Mar 2001, dick greenhaus wrote:> I'm told on good authority that the sealed vaults of Celtic Music are
> becoming unsealed, and some of the Good Old Stuff is beginning to appear
> on CD. Needless to say (I hope) Camsco Music will be offering them for
> sale in the US once they're out.
> If anyone know an URL for whoever's in charge of this operation I can
> speed up my part of it. It's good news in any case.
> dick greenhaus
>

Once upon a time, in the UK, there was Topic Records which was virtually the
only source for folk recordings. Then Bill Leader, with Leader/Trailer records
popped up upon the scene with a flock or recordings of the newly-emerging
Revival singers, bands and groups: Nic Jones, Tony Rose and a huge bunch of
others. Somewhere along the line, Leader/Trailer stopped releasing new
recordings (which is OK) but also refused permission for anyone  (including
the singers that had been recorded) to re-release anything. When Celtic Music
took over the operation, they too refused to either re-release anything or
permit anyone else to.
    This policy was a partiular hardship to Nic Jones, who was/is unable to
either make new recordings or to  find another source of income. A
loosening-up of the "sealed vaults" would be if immense help to Nic, and a joy
to many who'd like to hear the music.
dick greenhausEd Cray wrote:> Dick:
>
> Pardon my ignorance: what "sealed vaults"?  Who/what is Leader Recordings.
>
> Ed
>
> On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> > I'm told on good authority that the sealed vaults of Celtic Music are
> > becoming unsealed, and some of the Good Old Stuff is beginning to appear
> > on CD. Needless to say (I hope) Camsco Music will be offering them for
> > sale in the US once they're out.
> > If anyone know an URL for whoever's in charge of this operation I can
> > speed up my part of it. It's good news in any case.
> > dick greenhaus
> >

Other Leader / Trailer recordings include important traditional singers such
as...Eddie Butcher, an agricultural laborer from Magilligan, Northern Ireland,
who had a large store of traditional songs.  Many of Eddie Butcher's songs
have been recorded by well-known professional folksingers.Cecilia Costello, a woman of Irish extraction from Birmingham, who sang "The
Grey Cock."  Mrs. Costello's discovery shocked the folk world because people
from England's second largest city were not supposed to know folk songs,
much less "extinct" ones.Mrs. Costello has forever a special place in my heart because because, like
her, I was born in Birmingham of Irish extraction and have some songs from
my father.All the best,
Dan Milner----- Original Message -----
From: dick greenhaus <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2001 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: Leader Recordings> Once upon a time, in the UK, there was Topic Records which was virtually
the
> only source for folk recordings. Then Bill Leader, with Leader/Trailer
records
> popped up upon the scene with a flock or recordings of the newly-emerging
> Revival singers, bands and groups: Nic Jones, Tony Rose and a huge bunch
of
> others. Somewhere along the line, Leader/Trailer stopped releasing new
> recordings (which is OK) but also refused permission for anyone
(including
> the singers that had been recorded) to re-release anything. When Celtic
Music
> took over the operation, they too refused to either re-release anything or
> permit anyone else to.
>     This policy was a partiular hardship to Nic Jones, who was/is unable
to
> either make new recordings or to  find another source of income. A
> loosening-up of the "sealed vaults" would be if immense help to Nic, and a
joy
> to many who'd like to hear the music.
> dick greenhaus
>
> Ed Cray wrote:
>
> > Dick:
> >
> > Pardon my ignorance: what "sealed vaults"?  Who/what is Leader
Recordings.
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, dick greenhaus wrote:
> >
> > > I'm told on good authority that the sealed vaults of Celtic Music are
> > > becoming unsealed, and some of the Good Old Stuff is beginning to
appear
> > > on CD. Needless to say (I hope) Camsco Music will be offering them for
> > > sale in the US once they're out.
> > > If anyone know an URL for whoever's in charge of this operation I can
> > > speed up my part of it. It's good news in any case.
> > > dick greenhaus
> > >

Ed Cray wrote:> Who/what is Leader Recordings.Oh my god! I knew something Ed didn't know!Some stuff has gotten of the vault before now -- I've got a CD of Nic
Jones' Penguin Eggs and another of Dick Gaughan's No More Forever, purported
to have been recorded in Bill Leader's living room.The rest of my ragged little stack of 70s vinyl will be happy to retire
if it gets the chance.Susan

Several have noted elswhere nothing from Ballad-L since Feb. 28. Are we
still here?Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Sorry Bruce, no new ballads being written at the moment so nothing to
talk about. :-)JR>Several have noted elswhere nothing from Ballad-L since Feb. 28. Are we
>still here?
>
>Bruce Olson
>--
>Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
>ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
>or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Or maybe we've just answered all the ballad questions & solved all the
ballad problems. (Like that probably apocryphal story about the Patent
Office head who, around ?1887, suggested closing the whole operation, as
everything that could possibly be invented had already been invented.)On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, John Roberts wrote:> Sorry Bruce, no new ballads being written at the moment so nothing to
> talk about. :-)
>
> JR
>
> >Several have noted elswhere nothing from Ballad-L since Feb. 28. Are we
> >still here?
> >
> >Bruce Olson
> >--
> >Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> >ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> >or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>

John Roberts wrote:
>
> Sorry Bruce, no new ballads being written at the moment so nothing to
> talk about. :-)
>
> JR
>
> >Several have noted elswhere nothing from Ballad-L since Feb. 28. Are we
> >still here?
> >
> >Bruce Olson
> >--
> >Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> >ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> >or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Many thanks. I was getting worried that something might have happened to
Marge, mother-of-ballad-L, and then where would we be?Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

It is not exactly a ballad, but I was curious if anyone knows the origin
of Polly Wolly Doodle?  It sounds like it might be a minstrel show song.Andy Alexis, [unmask]
Visit me: http://www.calweb.com/~ndlxs
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"

I think what it is, Bruce, is your Feb 24 posting (partially quoted below):>The vertical position is the logarithm of the frequency
>(or number of semitones) for a given note, and the horizonal
>position is proportional to time from the start of the tune.
>Starting point is changeable in an edit subroutine and you can
>compress or expand the time for tunes (one at a time). [Those
>nasty dips one somtimes gets are rests, 'z', they can't go to 0
>on a logarithmic scale, so they go to C in my 0 octave = 16.5 Hz,
>where you can't hear them.]This just caused total brain overload for us poor ballad singers, too
old to remember how a logarithm works (if we ever knew), or too young
to have heard of it. We're only just now recovering, and with St.
Pat's celebrations tomorrow, and recovery therefrom, it might be a
while before we're all back to normal.:-)John.>Several have noted elswhere nothing from Ballad-L since Feb. 28. Are we
>still here?
>
>Bruce Olson
>--
>Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
>ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
>or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

John Roberts wrote:
>
> I think what it is, Bruce, is your Feb 24 posting (partially quoted below):
>
> >The vertical position is the logarithm of the frequency
> >(or number of semitones) for a given note, and the horizonal
> >position is proportional to time from the start of the tune.
> >Starting point is changeable in an edit subroutine and you can
> >compress or expand the time for tunes (one at a time). [Those
> >nasty dips one somtimes gets are rests, 'z', they can't go to 0
> >on a logarithmic scale, so they go to C in my 0 octave = 16.5 Hz,
> >where you can't hear them.]
>
> This just caused total brain overload for us poor ballad singers, too
> old to remember how a logarithm works (if we ever knew), or too young
> to have heard of it. We're only just now recovering, and with St.
> Pat's celebrations tomorrow, and recovery therefrom, it might be a
> while before we're all back to normal.
>
> :-)
>
> John.
>
> >Several have noted elswhere nothing from Ballad-L since Feb. 28. Are we
> >still here?
> >
> >Bruce Olson
> >--
> >Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> >ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> >or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>Gee, I just told Don Nichols last night that I did't think my postings
were so spellbinding as to numb the audience (or obnoxious enough to
drive everyone away). Don't make a liar out of me.Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Yes, the list is working, but IU's listservs seem to have been caput last
week.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Bruce Olson
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 2:01 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Working?Several have noted elswhere nothing from Ballad-L since Feb. 28. Are we
still here?Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

----- Original Message -----
From: John Roberts <[unmask]><<This just caused total brain overload for us poor ballad singers, too
old to remember how a logarithm works (if we ever knew), or too young
to have heard of it. We're only just now recovering, and with St.
Pat's celebrations tomorrow, and recovery therefrom, it might be a
while before we're all back to normal.>>Just think about "Woodchopper's Reel", John, the most mathematical tune ever
written. It's just full of logger rhythms.Peace,
Paul

[Since return address wasn't Ballad-L on original request, the
reply below went only to poster. Not my intention.]I remember it only as a pop song, something like 1940s. It's not
listed by that title in Joel Whitburn's 'Pop Memories', so wasn't
a top hit.Searching for 'Polly' on the Levy collection website didn't turn
it up there, but:Ed Cray, Sandy Paton, and Steve Roud, take a look at Polly winding
up her little ball of yarn, in the Levy collection.Bruce Olson--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

All right, since this place is getting completely out of control,
I guess it's time to give you something to think about.This occurred to me as I was working through Sam Henry's
Songs of the People. As some of you may know, there is a whole
section -- dozens of songs -- all of which follow the same
plot.* Guy sees beautiful girl and asks her to marry him
* Girl says, Young men are all liars; why should I trust
  you
* Guy says, "No, I'll be faithful. Really, really, cross
  my heart and hope to die. Please, please, pretty please
  with sugar on it?"
* Girl says, Oh. OK. Where's the nearest priest?(As you can tell, I got pretty disgusted with this sort
of song after the first, oh, one or so. :-)Now it's an interesting historical fact that the Irish population
exploded shortly before the famines. (It was bigger in 1840
than it is *now* -- by several million.) Why? Because people were
marrying younger.Until the early 1800s, because of land shortage, children could not
marry until they inherited land. They had to stay with their parents.
But as a result of various reforms and population shifts, those
restrictions became much looser in the pre-Famine period. More young
men had land than ever before, meaning more of them married young.Is it coincidence that Ireland has a rash of these songs? Songs
about young men inheriting land and going out to dig up a girl?Just a thought....
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Answering my own question somewhat, this is what I found on the archives
of 78-L (presumably a mailing list for 78 collectors):====cut from 78-l archives (original posters removed ) =========
I have seen "Polly Wolly Doodle" attributed to Foster, however, there
seems to be no evidence to support the attribution - only popular myth.
According to Ewen, "American Popular Songs: From the Revolutionary War
to the
Present":"Polly Wolly Doodle" is "a nonsense song of unknown authorship.  The
precise date of composition or first publication is not known; one of
its early
appearances in print took place in the collection "Student Songs,"
edited by William H. Hills (1880).  The song was popularized by the
eminent
minstrel Billy Emerson.  It then became a favorite of minstrel troupes
all over
the country."The popularity of the song in minstrelsy probably supports the false
attribution to Foster.  By the way, one such attribution can be found at
the "Music in the Public Domain" website, which lists it as:"Polly Wolly Doodle Foster 1885"see: http://www.pdinfo.com/list/p.htmBut Foster died in 1864, and neither wrote nor published after that,
AFAIK.
;-)
========another answer from 78-l ===============
>One that just about everyone from
>my generation was still learning as a child was Polly-Wolly-Doodle, the
>ultimate nonsense classic from that bygone era. I always thought that
it was
>written by Stephen Foster, but the record gives no composer credit, and
>checking the listing of all the Stephen Foster songs on the Web site,
>Polly-Wolly-Doodle does not appear there. Does anyone know by whom and"Polly Wolly Doodle" is similar to a song called "Needles Eye," which I
am not familiar with, but can be found in the book "Swing & Turn" by
William P. Owens, published in Dallas in 1936. "Polly" has many
references to the
South and Louisiana and is believed to be American in origin, perhaps
coming
from African American or minstrel sources. The words and music,
anonymous,
first turned up in "Students' Songs," published by students of Harvard
and
copyrighted in 1880.
ral Valley"
======= end of material from 78-l ==================Andy Alexis, [unmask]
Visit me: http://www.calweb.com/~ndlxs
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"

Andy,Get your automatic return email address out of your email set up
options, so replys go to ballad-l, not just you. Ballad-L's server won't
over ride it.Sigmund Spaeth, 'Read 'em and Weep', gives song and tune but say nothing
of history of "Polly Wolly Doodle".Bruce OlsonOld English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Just to add to the action:Does anyone know of any recordings of lumberjack songs?  I have the LPs
published a long time by Folkways (recorded in Ontario) and Library of
Congress (Michigan).  Is there anything more recent?Thanks
Margaret

This might open the eyes a little.  Anybody won the lottery recently?
(It's at www.abebooks.com if you're interested).3. Child, Francis James (edr).
The English and Scottish Popular Ballads. 10 vols. Boston, Houghton
Mifflin 1882. Full calf. One of 1000 numbered copies. Bookseller
Inventory # 058000006389*****          Price: EUR 4474.00 (approx. US$ 4076.98) convert currency
                 Presented by Biblioroom, Bruxelles, BelgiumCheers
Jamie

James Moreira wrote:
>
> This might open the eyes a little.  Anybody won the lottery recently?
> (It's at www.abebooks.com if you're interested).
>
> 3. Child, Francis James (edr).
> The English and Scottish Popular Ballads. 10 vols. Boston, Houghton
> Mifflin 1882. Full calf. One of 1000 numbered copies. Bookseller
> Inventory # 058000006389
>
> *****          Price: EUR 4474.00 (approx. US$ 4076.98) convert currency
>                  Presented by Biblioroom, Bruxelles, Belgium
>
> Cheers
> JamieSaving my pennies for Glenbuchat Ballads. Any estimate of publication
date yet? 3 published versions of "Lang a-growing" (Craigston of
Uruhart) all came from Charles Kirkpatric Sharpe, and it appears that he
probably copied it from the Glenbuchat collection (his transcript is
evidently that at Broughton House, Kirkcudbright).Incidently, I got an enquiry from Hayes Florence of the National Library
of Canada music reference service for the tune of M. Parker' 1626 ballad
calling for "King Henry's goning to Boulougne" (about 2-3 weeks ago)Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Folks:I thought someone else might recommend James J. Fuld's _The Book of World
Famous Music,_ 3rd ed. (NY: Dover, 1966) as a possible source so I passed
on this one.Meanwhile, for whatever it is worth, the usually reliable Dick Jacobs,
_Who Wrote That Song_ (Whitehall, Va.: Betterway, 1988), states that
"Polly Wolly Doodle" dates from 1883, words and music by unknown
individuals, and adds: "Traditional American Minstrel song."EdP.S. to Bruce:  Joe Hickerson found that sheet music for me in the
Library of Congress.  See p. 95 of _Muse_ II.On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Bruce Olson wrote:> [Since return address wasn't Ballad-L on original request, the
> reply below went only to poster. Not my intention.]
>
> I remember it only as a pop song, something like 1940s. It's not
> listed by that title in Joel Whitburn's 'Pop Memories', so wasn't
> a top hit.
>
> Searching for 'Polly' on the Levy collection website didn't turn
> it up there, but:
>
> Ed Cray, Sandy Paton, and Steve Roud, take a look at Polly winding
> up her little ball of yarn, in the Levy collection.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> --
> Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>

Bob:I am not so sure that marrying young took place all that much so long as
men stayed on the land.  The Irish had long practiced primogeniture.  The
oldest son inherited the land.  The second, third sons went into the army,
emigrated, etc.Hence the "will you be faithful" stuff -- I would guess.See Conrad Arensberger, _The Irish Countryman,_ published about 1940, a
class sociological/anthropological study.  The eldest son was "the boy"
until his father retired and turned over the farm to him.  My memory of
the book serving, "the boy" didn't even marry until then.  And many a
father stayed on the land until his 80s, while "the boy" was in his
fifties and sixties.EdOn Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> All right, since this place is getting completely out of control,
> I guess it's time to give you something to think about.
>
> This occurred to me as I was working through Sam Henry's
> Songs of the People. As some of you may know, there is a whole
> section -- dozens of songs -- all of which follow the same
> plot.
>
> * Guy sees beautiful girl and asks her to marry him
> * Girl says, Young men are all liars; why should I trust
>   you
> * Guy says, "No, I'll be faithful. Really, really, cross
>   my heart and hope to die. Please, please, pretty please
>   with sugar on it?"
> * Girl says, Oh. OK. Where's the nearest priest?
>
> (As you can tell, I got pretty disgusted with this sort
> of song after the first, oh, one or so. :-)
>
> Now it's an interesting historical fact that the Irish population
> exploded shortly before the famines. (It was bigger in 1840
> than it is *now* -- by several million.) Why? Because people were
> marrying younger.
>
> Until the early 1800s, because of land shortage, children could not
> marry until they inherited land. They had to stay with their parents.
> But as a result of various reforms and population shifts, those
> restrictions became much looser in the pre-Famine period. More young
> men had land than ever before, meaning more of them married young.
>
> Is it coincidence that Ireland has a rash of these songs? Songs
> about young men inheriting land and going out to dig up a girl?
>
> Just a thought....
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 1078 Colne Street
> Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
> 651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>

Jamie:Let's see just how long it takes to sell.EdOn Fri, 16 Mar 2001, James Moreira wrote:> This might open the eyes a little.  Anybody won the lottery recently?
> (It's at www.abebooks.com if you're interested).
>
> 3. Child, Francis James (edr).
> The English and Scottish Popular Ballads. 10 vols. Boston, Houghton
> Mifflin 1882. Full calf. One of 1000 numbered copies. Bookseller
> Inventory # 058000006389
>
> *****          Price: EUR 4474.00 (approx. US$ 4076.98) convert currency
>                  Presented by Biblioroom, Bruxelles, Belgium
>
> Cheers
> Jamie
>

Bruce, Jamie:Child I know.  Tell us more about these Glenbuchat Ballads and who is
publishing them.Indeed, what other books of ballads and folk songs are on the horizon?EdOn Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Bruce Olson wrote:> James Moreira wrote:
> >
> > This might open the eyes a little.  Anybody won the lottery recently?
> > (It's at www.abebooks.com if you're interested).
> >
> > 3. Child, Francis James (edr).
> > The English and Scottish Popular Ballads. 10 vols. Boston, Houghton
> > Mifflin 1882. Full calf. One of 1000 numbered copies. Bookseller
> > Inventory # 058000006389
> >
> > *****          Price: EUR 4474.00 (approx. US$ 4076.98) convert currency
> >                  Presented by Biblioroom, Bruxelles, Belgium
> >
> > Cheers
> > Jamie
>
> Saving my pennies for Glenbuchat Ballads. Any estimate of publication
> date yet? 3 published versions of "Lang a-growing" (Craigston of
> Uruhart) all came from Charles Kirkpatric Sharpe, and it appears that he
> probably copied it from the Glenbuchat collection (his transcript is
> evidently that at Broughton House, Kirkcudbright).
>
> Incidently, I got an enquiry from Hayes Florence of the National Library
> of Canada music reference service for the tune of M. Parker' 1626 ballad
> calling for "King Henry's goning to Boulougne" (about 2-3 weeks ago)
>
> Bruce Olson
> --
> Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>

"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:
>
> Now it's an interesting historical fact that the Irish population
> exploded shortly before the famines. (It was bigger in 1840
> than it is *now* -- by several million.) Why? Because people were
> marrying younger.
>
> Until the early 1800s, because of land shortage, children could not
> marry until they inherited land. They had to stay with their parents.
> But as a result of various reforms and population shifts, those
> restrictions became much looser in the pre-Famine period. More young
> men had land than ever before, meaning more of them married young.
>
> Is it coincidence that Ireland has a rash of these songs? Songs
> about young men inheriting land and going out to dig up a girl?Since I believe the English population doubled as well, and they didn't
have a famine, it would seem to be anti-coincidence - or an accomodation
to an inadequate number of males?A large number of factors were involved in the population doubling,
including (I'd have to consult a friend to list all of them):End of Napoleonic War
Advances in hygeine, lowered infant mortality, longer lives
Improvement in productivity of food & goods due to industrial revolution
Dramatic increase in national wealth (see above, plus trade)Availability of lifestyles off the farm, an industrial economy (measure
means by money rather than land), emigration, and a variety of other
factors influenced the matter of marrying younger.-Don Duncan

Ed Cray wrote:
>
> Bruce, Jamie:
>
> Child I know.  Tell us more about these Glenbuchat Ballads and who is
> publishing them.
>
> Indeed, what other books of ballads and folk songs are on the horizon?
>
> Ed
>
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Bruce Olson wrote:
>
> > James Moreira wrote:
> > >
> > > This might open the eyes a little.  Anybody won the lottery recently?
> > > (It's at www.abebooks.com if you're interested).
> > >
> > > 3. Child, Francis James (edr).
> > > The English and Scottish Popular Ballads. 10 vols. Boston, Houghton
> > > Mifflin 1882. Full calf. One of 1000 numbered copies. Bookseller
> > > Inventory # 058000006389
> > >
> > > *****          Price: EUR 4474.00 (approx. US$ 4076.98) convert currency
> > >                  Presented by Biblioroom, Bruxelles, Belgium
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Jamie
> >
> > Saving my pennies for Glenbuchat Ballads. Any estimate of publication
> > date yet? 3 published versions of "Lang a-growing" (Craigston of
> > Uruhart) all came from Charles Kirkpatric Sharpe, and it appears that he
> > probably copied it from the Glenbuchat collection (his transcript is
> > evidently that at Broughton House, Kirkcudbright).
> >
> > Incidently, I got an enquiry from Hayes Florence of the National Library
> > of Canada music reference service for the tune of M. Parker' 1626 ballad
> > calling for "King Henry's goning to Boulougne" (about 2-3 weeks ago)
> >
> > Bruce Olson
> > --
> > Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> > ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> > or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
> >Ancient news (1997) that I think I mentioned once before. Dr. Emily Lyle
is working on an edition of the Harris MS. She has a collaborator that
apparently teachs music at Univ. of Oregon.Incidently I've only noted mention of a few ballad tune tunes from
Charles Kirkpatrick Sharpe's MS in NLS. Lady John Scott bought them and
his MSS are mixed wih hers. Jack Campin has been through them, but I
haven't gotten much out of him. (He recently discovered the long lost
Crockat music MS that Wm. Stenhouse had, then it passed to C. K. Sharpe.
He hasn't told me where it is, but I think I now have a good guess.)Any way, any Scott's members on the list that want to get us a listing
of all of C. K. Sharpe's tunes at NLS? (A full listing of the non-Child
one noted by Andrew Blaikie, c 1827, would also be nice to have, also. I
don't know of any that he (Sharpe) published. (His father and a sister
were composers, and tunes by them are in Gow's 'Strathspey Reels'
series)Bruce Olson--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

As I understand it:  potato growing allowed the Irish to grow enough
food to live on with very little land.  So, they divided up the land
among the sons, and they got married young.After the potato famine, things changed.  The oldest son
(usually) inherited the farm intact; he might not be able to marry
till his father retired.  There's a book titled _The Irish
Countryman_, by an anthropologist who did field work in rural Ireland
in the 1930's, which gives a good picture of the patterns that had
been established and which were then still in place.  Among other
things, it describes how the son and the retired father -- still
living in the same house, but in a different room -- managed to get
along in various families.So -- the sons went overseas, to England, or to town, except for the
one who inherited the farm.Dan Goodman
[unmask]
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

I need to preface this with some background, I guess. It seems
that all the arguments I'm getting are historical.Now: I was *not* in Ireland in the 1840s. :-) But I have been
studying Irish history intensely in the last few months, mostly
to get background for Sam Henry. I can only tell you what I
have read. But it's been a lot.Books consulted:
J. C. Beckett, The Making of Modern Ireland (highly recommended --
  it somehow gets a lot more information per page than the others)
Peter and Fiona Somerset Fry, A History of Ireland
F. S. L Lyons, Ireland Since the Famine (still working on this one, but
  I'm through the famine part :-)
Martin Wallace, A Short History of IrelandThis ignores some books focusing entirely on more recent eventsOn 3/16/01, Ed Cray wrote:>Bob:
>
>I am not so sure that marrying young took place all that much so long as
>men stayed on the land. The Irish had long practiced primogeniture.This is actually not true. I forget the term, but the English for a
long time had a habit of subdividing the land among heirs. They
installed primogeniture in England long before Ireland. At least,
that's what Beckett said. This was one of the causes of the famine --
since everyone had such a small holding, they had no choice but to
grow potatoes.In the 1800s, though, as the tenant laws were relaxed, more land
became available to more people younger.>The
>oldest son inherited the land.  The second, third sons went into the army,
>emigrated, etc.
>
>Hence the "will you be faithful" stuff -- I would guess.
>
>See Conrad Arensberger, _The Irish Countryman,_ published about 1940, a
>class sociological/anthropological study.  The eldest son was "the boy"
>until his father retired and turned over the farm to him.  My memory of
>the book serving, "the boy" didn't even marry until then.  And many a
>father stayed on the land until his 80s, while "the boy" was in his
>fifties and sixties.Agreed. But not the point. This was the situation *until* the 1800s --
and, as someone pointed out recently, this was the basic medieval
method of birth control. It's what prevented a Malthusian catastrophe.
Until it happened in Ireland, anyway.Beckett made this point strongly; it's why I noticed the issue.
Until the 1800s, marriage came late in Ireland, because the young
men had no land. In the 1800s, for a variety of reasons, the young
men suddenly had more land at their disposal. They were free to
marry, at an age when their fathers had still been working at home.
In other words, they married while the passions still burned strong.Assuming this to be true (and the population data supports it),
then the question becomes, Is this responsible for the rash of
young men chasing after pretty girls? Saying the facts are wrong
doesn't settle the question. :-)***Donald A. Duncan wrote:>Since I believe the English population doubled as well, and they didn't
>have a famine, it would seem to be anti-coincidence - or an accomodation
>to an inadequate number of males?Again, I'm going by Beckett here. Yes, the population increased
everywhere, including England. But while the English population
grew (and, for the nineteenth century as a whole, grew faster
than the Irish), the Irish population grew much faster in the
early part of the century. Beckett gave a pre-famine population
of eight million -- meaning a population density of nearly
400 people per square mile even *outside* the towns. Such a
population was insustainable (as the famines would prove). It
could only arise as a result of a population boom. The boom
arose because the population married younger. This is the
key point. The population married younger. Doesn't matter
why. Doesn't matter if it happened in England too, or in
all of Europe. The question is, are all this awful songs about
love at first sight, leading to marriage, a result of the
population getting married younger?
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I seem to remember that this song appeared in print as a student song in the
1880s;  it is in the 1909 edition of _Heart Songs_  (Chapple Publishing Co.,
Ltd., Boston).  In the Classified Index there it is listed among "College and
Fraternal Songs".  I would guess that it was written by some white person in
imitation of the way he thought black people spoke.  The _Heart Songs_
version is arranged for a male quartet.It was a popular camp song among the Boy Scouts in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in the
late 1920s.Sam
La Jolla, CA

Hi Margaret,Regarding lumbering songs, yes, I think Edith Fowke's record of Lumbering
Songs from the Ontario Shanties was great.Some other songs appear on the Folkways recording of the Mirimachi Folk
Festival.  There's Ellen Stekert's recording where she sings the songs of
Ezra Barhight, Songs of a New York Lumberjack.  As for more recent ones,
there's not much -- maybe stuff I don't know of.Two other records by singers who sang for Edith Fowke have some items on
them: "Folksongs from the Province of Ontario" by La Rena Clarke and "The
Rambling Irishman" by Tom Brandon.  La Rena Clarke, I believe, issued quite
a few of her songs on private records.But i think that the first record of Lumbering Songs from the Ontario
shanties was the best.Barry

Also, I think it's just good to get the Northern American/Irish style from
a record like O.J. Abbott's on Folkways, Irish and English Songs from the
Ottawa Valley.And ... I almost forgot my own recording -- I must be the humblest person
around -- Folk Songs of Michigan, a cassette tape from the East Michigan
University A/V Department.  It went balsa, as Michael Cooney used to say.
And Gene Bluestein also had a folk songs of Michigan record on Folkways.
It's hard to avoid lumbering ballads on a Michigan recording.There was a rabbi who signed his letters -- "the truly humble one"  When
his students were challenged on how could he say this and still be humble,
the answer was that his humility had reached such a pinnacle that he no
longer considered it a virtue.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Folks:This morning's Los Angeles Times carried a brief notice of the death of
V. Pinard Lancelot, "aka Sir Lancelot, King of Calypso," at age 98.  He
died on March 12 in Anaheim, California.Sir Lancelot was one of the folksingers who recorded "pro-peace" and
left-oriented songs for Charter Records after the war.  Four of his
tracks are included on the exhaustive _Songs for Political Action_ (Bear
Family Records, BCD 15720 JL).Lancelot wrote some 200 songs, according to the obit, and appeared in 16
films in which he claims to have introduced 1940's Hollywood to calypso.
The 200 songs included "Shame and Scandal" dealing with the abdication of
Edward VII and "Brotherhood of Man."Lancelot originally came to the United States to study medicine.
Medicine, the obit stated, was replaced by music.He is survived by his wife of 57 years, three daughters, numerous
grandchildren and great-grandchildren, and nine younger brothers and
sisters.Ed

In a message dated 16/03/2001  20:55:16, you write:<< Is it coincidence that Ireland has a rash of these songs? Songs
 about young men inheriting land and going out to dig up a girl? >>No; though it may not be why the songs were made initially - some of the same
social conditions probably existed in other places - but it is almost
certainly among the reasons for their survival in Ireland.This is one of the questions I hope to be answering with greater certainty
within the next years. I am (at the age of sixty) soon to begin a
post-graduate fellowship at NUI Galway. A new research institute, called "The
Centre for Human Settlement and Historical Change" with a cross disciplinary
approach and drawing its membership from various institutions in and out of
Ireland has employed 11 researchers, 9 post-graduate and 4 post-doctoral, to
inquire into various aspects of the cultural life of the Irish.  Details are
at http://www.nuigalway.ie/chs/projects.htm - my area will be within PRA5
"Culture and Colonisation."The broad topic is "The Popular Printed Ballad in Early Nineteenth Century
Ireland" but a part of it will concentrate on the connections between the
ballad trade of Ireland and Great Britain, perhaps with trans-Atlantic
excursions and another part on the degree to which questions such as that
posed by Robert may be clarified.I am being paid, I don't have to move from Portrush to Galway and it will
lead to a Doctorate - how's that for an early retired teacher who had no
academic pretensions but who loved songs and was fascinated by the way they
illuminate past and present lives.Steve Roud has already, with great kindness, sent me a lot of bibliographic
help and the rest of you need not think that the inquiries will not come
thick and fast once I get my head stuck into this.John Moulden

Many congratulations, John.  I hope that you will make your findings
available to us all.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of [unmask]
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2001 6:00 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Something to Work On, Since We Aren't WorkingIn a message dated 16/03/2001  20:55:16, you write:<< Is it coincidence that Ireland has a rash of these songs? Songs
 about young men inheriting land and going out to dig up a girl? >>No; though it may not be why the songs were made initially - some of the
same
social conditions probably existed in other places - but it is almost
certainly among the reasons for their survival in Ireland.This is one of the questions I hope to be answering with greater certainty
within the next years. I am (at the age of sixty) soon to begin a
post-graduate fellowship at NUI Galway. A new research institute, called
"The
Centre for Human Settlement and Historical Change" with a cross disciplinary
approach and drawing its membership from various institutions in and out of
Ireland has employed 11 researchers, 9 post-graduate and 4 post-doctoral, to
inquire into various aspects of the cultural life of the Irish.  Details are
at http://www.nuigalway.ie/chs/projects.htm - my area will be within PRA5
"Culture and Colonisation."The broad topic is "The Popular Printed Ballad in Early Nineteenth Century
Ireland" but a part of it will concentrate on the connections between the
ballad trade of Ireland and Great Britain, perhaps with trans-Atlantic
excursions and another part on the degree to which questions such as that
posed by Robert may be clarified.I am being paid, I don't have to move from Portrush to Galway and it will
lead to a Doctorate - how's that for an early retired teacher who had no
academic pretensions but who loved songs and was fascinated by the way they
illuminate past and present lives.Steve Roud has already, with great kindness, sent me a lot of bibliographic
help and the rest of you need not think that the inquiries will not come
thick and fast once I get my head stuck into this.John Moulden

Hi, Robert.  I don't have my syllabi handy, but you might want to check out
Owen Dudley Edwards' edited work on the Great Famine, as well as the work of
C. Woodham Smith.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Robert B. Waltz
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 3:56 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Something to Work On, Since We Aren't WorkingAll right, since this place is getting completely out of control,
I guess it's time to give you something to think about.This occurred to me as I was working through Sam Henry's
Songs of the People. As some of you may know, there is a whole
section -- dozens of songs -- all of which follow the same
plot.* Guy sees beautiful girl and asks her to marry him
* Girl says, Young men are all liars; why should I trust
  you
* Guy says, "No, I'll be faithful. Really, really, cross
  my heart and hope to die. Please, please, pretty please
  with sugar on it?"
* Girl says, Oh. OK. Where's the nearest priest?(As you can tell, I got pretty disgusted with this sort
of song after the first, oh, one or so. :-)Now it's an interesting historical fact that the Irish population
exploded shortly before the famines. (It was bigger in 1840
than it is *now* -- by several million.) Why? Because people were
marrying younger.Until the early 1800s, because of land shortage, children could not
marry until they inherited land. They had to stay with their parents.
But as a result of various reforms and population shifts, those
restrictions became much looser in the pre-Famine period. More young
men had land than ever before, meaning more of them married young.Is it coincidence that Ireland has a rash of these songs? Songs
about young men inheriting land and going out to dig up a girl?Just a thought....
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

I have the ten volume Child Jamie mentioned, neither leather nor numbered.
.   but will send info in late April when I get home.I collected Needles Eye from Charlie Graves in Vermont in 1960, recorded it
on Folksongs of Vermont, 1962, FolkwaysMargaret MacArthur
1628 North Tyndall Ave
520/624/4114
Tucson AZ 85719 (Jan-March)
PO Box 15
802/254/2549
Marlboro, VT 05344 (April-December)
[unmask]
www.margaretmacarthur.com

Dan Goodman wrote:> After the potato famine, things changed.  The oldest son
> (usually) inherited the farm intact; he might not be able to marry
> till his father retired.And according to my colleague, Lesley Smith, who researched beastiality in 17th c.
Scotland, the later the marriage age the higher the incidence of beastiality
charges and trials.I don't suppose we have any ballads about that.Best,
Susan

On Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Sandy Paton wrote:> Re: the 10-volume Child of 1882-1887
>
> I happen to have the ten volumes of this set, with the covers all falling apart, boards
> loose from spines, etc., but with page blocks in excellent shape. For many years, I've
> kept them in a large box on a top shelf, thinking that I ought to get them rebound, but
> could never afford to do so. I got them down the other day and, to my amazement, out of
> volume one fell a single page letter from Child, apparently addressed to the recipient of
> these ten volumes in 1887 (when the final volume was printed, I think). The trouble is, I
> can't read the man's writing. So...
>   Is there anyone out there more familiar with late 19th century written script than I who
> might be able to translate Child's letter  for me. I'll make photocopies of the note (it's
> very brief)  and mail one to each of you who volunteer. First one to give me a full
> translation of the letter will be given a free copy of my soon to be issued Frank Proffitt
> CD (everything is now in the hands of the printer and the CD manufacturer -- and we are
> waiting....) Volunteers, please send me your snail-mail address.
>    Sandy Paton at Folk-Legacy
>As long as we are on the subject of Child collectanea --I do not have the original edition, but do have the Folklore Press (aka
Ken Goldstein) reprint.But, I do have, courtesy of Linn Schulz a rubbing from Child's gravestone.
It will go to the Archive of American Folk Culture in the fullness of
time.  And I just purchased one of the 210 copies printed for the Caxton
Club of Chicago in 1899 of _Il Pesceballo,_ F.J. Child's mock comic opera
written in 1862 and staged in Boston three times to raise funds for the
Sanitary Commission (the Civil War version of the Red Cross).Inspired by the then-popular college song "One Fishball," Child wrote it
under the nom de plume of Maestro Rossibello-Donimozarti.  It was
translated from the Italian of Child into English by Child's friend James
Russell Lowell for the printed program of the 1862 performances.Ed

John:Hooray for you.  I trust we will see a book energe from the bowels of your
thesis in the fullness of time.EdOn Sat, 17 Mar 2001 [unmask] wrote:> In a message dated 16/03/2001  20:55:16, you write:
>
> << Is it coincidence that Ireland has a rash of these songs? Songs
>  about young men inheriting land and going out to dig up a girl? >>
>
> No; though it may not be why the songs were made initially - some of the same
> social conditions probably existed in other places - but it is almost
> certainly among the reasons for their survival in Ireland.
>
> This is one of the questions I hope to be answering with greater certainty
> within the next years. I am (at the age of sixty) soon to begin a
> post-graduate fellowship at NUI Galway. A new research institute, called "The
> Centre for Human Settlement and Historical Change" with a cross disciplinary
> approach and drawing its membership from various institutions in and out of
> Ireland has employed 11 researchers, 9 post-graduate and 4 post-doctoral, to
> inquire into various aspects of the cultural life of the Irish.  Details are
> at http://www.nuigalway.ie/chs/projects.htm - my area will be within PRA5
> "Culture and Colonisation."
>
> The broad topic is "The Popular Printed Ballad in Early Nineteenth Century
> Ireland" but a part of it will concentrate on the connections between the
> ballad trade of Ireland and Great Britain, perhaps with trans-Atlantic
> excursions and another part on the degree to which questions such as that
> posed by Robert may be clarified.
>
> I am being paid, I don't have to move from Portrush to Galway and it will
> lead to a Doctorate - how's that for an early retired teacher who had no
> academic pretensions but who loved songs and was fascinated by the way they
> illuminate past and present lives.
>
> Steve Roud has already, with great kindness, sent me a lot of bibliographic
> help and the rest of you need not think that the inquiries will not come
> thick and fast once I get my head stuck into this.
>
> John Moulden
>

Susan:I can think of no CHILD ballads on the subject of bestiality, though
incest, adultery, fratricide, sorocide, and similar R-rated material
abounds.  However, if you care to peruse my _Erotic Muse_ second edition,
there you will find bestiality in abundance.  And I did not then have the
marvelous and multi-stanza "Sheep Song."EdOn Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Susan Tichy wrote:> Dan Goodman wrote:
>
> > After the potato famine, things changed.  The oldest son
> > (usually) inherited the farm intact; he might not be able to marry
> > till his father retired.
>
> And according to my colleague, Lesley Smith, who researched beastiality in 17th c.
> Scotland, the later the marriage age the higher the incidence of beastiality
> charges and trials.
>
> I don't suppose we have any ballads about that.
>
> Best,
> Susan
>

On 3/17/01, Susan Tichy wrote:>Dan Goodman wrote:
>
>> After the potato famine, things changed.  The oldest son
>> (usually) inherited the farm intact; he might not be able to marry
>> till his father retired.
>
>And according to my colleague, Lesley Smith, who researched beastiality in 17th c.
>Scotland, the later the marriage age the higher the incidence of beastiality
>charges and trials.Hm. Other research seems to indicate that morality tends to relax to
suit the inevitable. So, e.g., when the Catholics can't get enough
celibate priests, they allow priests to have unofficial liasons,
and just look the other way.Bestiality may have been beyond the pale. But if so, it would be
worth examining statistics from prostitution and adultery and the
like -- since the incidence of those crimes ought to correspond,
at least somewhat, with the marriage age.>I don't suppose we have any ballads about that.There are some, as Ed Cray pointed out. But -- as Ed pointed out
in _The Erotic Muse_, most such songs are intended to be funny.
(I don't think they all succeed, or even come close, but that's
another issue.) But that tends to reduce their quality as ballads.
It's just not a topic with great potential for pathos. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
1078 Colne Street
Saint Paul, MN 55103-1348
651-489-1930 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

In a message dated 3/17/01 1:01:26 PM Central Standard Time,
[unmask] writes:> There are some, as Ed Cray pointed out. But -- as Ed pointed out
>  in _The Erotic Muse_, most such songs are intended to be funny.
>  (I don't think they all succeed, or even come close, but that's
>  another issue.) But that tends to reduce their quality as ballads.
>  It's just not a topic with great potential for pathos. :-)Woody Allen did his best, though. I will never forget Gene Wilder as a
derelict in the street, hopelessly drinking Woolite.Peace,
Paul

There is an auction on Ebay for volume 1 of Bronson - TRADITIONAL TUNES
OF THE CHILD BALLADS. It is auction #1417233202. It is opening at $9.99
with NO reserve. Here is the URL
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1417233202
I have sent an email to seller asking if she has the other volumes. It
looks like an opportunity for someone to get this for a good price.                                Happy Bidding!
                                Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Barry:Child was a fervent supporter of the Union.  Which explains the anthology
of civil war songs -- and _Il Pesceballo._In dealing with ballads, he was a critic.  In dealing with the War Between
the States, he was a patriot.EdOn Sat, 17 Mar 2001, Barry O'Neill wrote:>
> I'm surprised that Child was willing to edit a book of civil war songs -- I'd
> would have thought he's see them as full of doggerel and emotionality..  In his
> notes on the last few ballads in his collection he is scathing about just how
> bad they really are.
>
> This is in our library -- I haven't looked at it -- it must be his irreverent
> side:
>
> Francis James Child, Il pesceballo, opera in un atto: musica del maestro
> Rossibelli-Donimozarti.  Cambridge River Press. 1862 31 pp.
>

Bruce, Ed, and othersThe Glenbuchat Mss are four volumes of ballads (68 types in all)
compiled in western Aberdeenshire about 1818 by a minister named Robert
Scott.  (Ian Olson wrote a very good history of the Mss for the
Aberdeen Review circa 1996.)  For reasons unknown, the manuscripts were
not available to Child, but they found their way into Special
Collections at the University of Aberdeen in the late 1940s.  David
Buchan came across them as a student at Aberdeen and worked on them
intermittently, preparing them for publication, up til his death.  In
addition to editing the manuscripts, he was also preparing a community
study of the parish where the ballads were collected, and I've been
finishing up the latter part of the research over the last three or
four years.When will it be published?  Hopefully very soon.  I'm desperately
trying to get my end of things finished up as quickly as possible, and
then it goes to the press.  I'll keep the list posted.Bruce, I was interested in your comments on Sharpe and Craigston.
Which collections have the versions you mention?  I know that Stenhouse
was aware of Scott's work and appears to have seen the Mss., but I
didn't know that he had passed anything onto Sharpe (unless you're
referring to the later editions of the Scots Musical Museum; did Sharpe
help to revise and publish Stenhouse's annotations?).  I spent a couple
of maddening days in Edinburgh trying to track down Stenhouse's papers,
which I thought likely to be in the David Laing collection at the
University.  I was less interested in the ballads, per se, though, than
in the possibility of correspondence between Stenhouse and Scott that
might tell me something about the exact circumstances under which the
ballads were collected, and if I were really lucky maybe even the name
of a singer or two.  But no luck.Cheers
Jamie

James Moreira wrote:
>
> Bruce, Ed, and others
>
> The Glenbuchat Mss are four volumes of ballads (68 types in all)
> compiled in western Aberdeenshire about 1818 by a minister named Robert
> Scott.  (Ian Olson wrote a very good history of the Mss for the
> Aberdeen Review circa 1996.)  For reasons unknown, the manuscripts were
> not available to Child, but they found their way into Special
> Collections at the University of Aberdeen in the late 1940s.  David
> Buchan came across them as a student at Aberdeen and worked on them
> intermittently, preparing them for publication, up til his death.  In
> addition to editing the manuscripts, he was also preparing a community
> study of the parish where the ballads were collected, and I've been
> finishing up the latter part of the research over the last three or
> four years.
>
> When will it be published?  Hopefully very soon.  I'm desperately
> trying to get my end of things finished up as quickly as possible, and
> then it goes to the press.  I'll keep the list posted.
>
> Bruce, I was interested in your comments on Sharpe and Craigston.
> Which collections have the versions you mention?  I know that Stenhouse
> was aware of Scott's work and appears to have seen the Mss., but I
> didn't know that he had passed anything onto Sharpe (unless you're
> referring to the later editions of the Scots Musical Museum; did Sharpe
> help to revise and publish Stenhouse's annotations?).  I spent a couple
> of maddening days in Edinburgh trying to track down Stenhouse's papers,
> which I thought likely to be in the David Laing collection at the
> University.  I was less interested in the ballads, per se, though, than
> in the possibility of correspondence between Stenhouse and Scott that
> might tell me something about the exact circumstances under which the
> ballads were collected, and if I were really lucky maybe even the name
> of a singer or two.  But no luck.
>
> Cheers
> JamieStenhouse: Try Broughton House, Kirkcudbright, to see what came thoughC. K. Sharpe was aquainted with Wm. Stenhouse, and eventually got
the Crokat music MS (c 1709) from him (or his estate), and
possibly other items (2 music MSS mentioned by Stenhouse have not
been noted since). Sharpe noted that he had Crockat MS, but
didn't note that he had the missing ones.Young Craigston/ Craigstoun1: Maidment's 'A North Countrie Garland'2: 'Additional Illustrations to the Scots Musical Museum', #377,
p. 388*, contains another test, from unspecified MS, somewhat
Scottified. Sharpe noted there that the earliest published copy, 1824
was in Maidment's book, but didn't mention there that he had supplied
it. That came much later. [It wasn't in Sharpe's A Ballad Book', 1823,
so text was probably newly aquired) Stenhouse, age 54, died Nov. 10 1827
(Laing), but his notes on songs in SMM appears to have been completed
1822-3, and noted to be 'well along' in 1817. Laing also said (1839
preface to reprint of SMM with Stenhouse's notes unaltered) that he was
well acquainted with Stenhouse.]3: Buchan. I think it was a quotation from Buchan (his book I
don't have) supplied by Malcolm Douglas on the Mudcat Forum (use
Forum Search in Quick Links-growing/growin, two threads, at least
one has cross link to the other) that supplied the rest.Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Anyone have a copy of the English "Bowman Prigg's Farewell", (single
sheet w/ music, c 1730? I would very much like a copy of this to
complete my history of "The Night before Larry was stretched", (1787) in
the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website. The song would appear to be (on
the basis of the sole 1st verse I have) a humorous 'last goodnight', and
"Larry stretched", was probably based on it, and borrowed it's tune (1
of it's 2 tunes).Bruce Olson
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

        Possibly a bit "off subject" but are any of your aware of a
computer program that one can use to catalog recordings? Specifically
geared toward album title, song title and performer. That I use an Apple
will probably make things even tougher but any leads would be greatly
appreciated.Cliff OCHELTREE
N. O. LA

In a message dated 3/18/01 2:21:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[unmask] writes:<<         Possibly a bit "off subject" but are any of your aware of a
 computer program that one can use to catalog recordings? >>
Cliff (I just sent this a minute ago and it seems lost by AOL.  Forgive me if
this is a repeat)
I have had much success with "My Advanced Mailing List," a program by the "My
Software Company," names which sound silly but the product is fine.  You
rename everything so it doesn't look like a mailing list anymore.  You can
add fields, change their layout, and view items one at a time or via a spread
sheet.  For example, I renamed "Name" to "Ballad Title," and then can search
thru the titles looking for all songs having "gypsy" in the title.  It takes
about 2 seconds to do this for 3000+ titles (166 mhz machine).  The company
may still be in business; I acquired this 5 years ago.  Pete Brady

Hello,
     Does anyone know if Rod Stradling is still around?  I just wrote the
the E-mail address he had and got my message sent back automatically.  I
then checked and, to my astonishment, realized it's been about 3 years
since I wrote to him.  He is the geographically closest person into folk
music I know of to a farmer and ballad singing friend of mine in Dorset.
I'd appreciate knowing his current E-mail address.     You can answer me offlist, if you like.     Thanks.Regards,
Pat Holub