On Sat, Nov 25, 2000 at 02:42:29PM -0500, Abby Sale wrote:> Ah...
> 12 years on the 'net and my very first "Tell everyone you know."
>
> I got virused to day by a feller named bruce.
>
> I am not knowledgeable on this but I'll just give you the best I got.
>
> It came as 5 e-mails from Bruce ???crief?? and addressed to me and several
> others - each item differently.  The subject line in each was the same as
> different executable e-mails I've received recently (FL_Ballot.exe, etc)
> Remarkably each had some 546 lines in the message.
>
> Since this looked odd but had friendly Subjects, I saved to disk instead of
> launching direct from my Reader. I ran MacAfee Viruscan with definitions
> file 4.0.4099 (Nov 12, 2000) (and full heuristics) which showed then clean.        You should have immediately downloaded the latest definitions
file, and even then, it *might* be too new to be recognized.  These
virus writers work fast to make new ones, unfortunately.> I manually launched one (FW_.exe, etc) & got zapped.        A basic rule is that *any* executable should not be trusted
unless:1)      You know the person who sent it to you.2)      You *knew* that he was going to send it to you, or have
        confirmed via phone conversation that he did send it to you, and
        *why*.3)      You know *what* it is supposed to do -- and you need to do
        that.        If you don't do all of this -- put it on a sacrificial computer
which has nothing important on it, and see whether it trashes *that*
machine -- don't trust it on your main system.        It may well be that your computer sent off copies of this under
*your* name to people in *your* address list, while it was trashing the
rest of the system.> I use Win95-B and it put a command somewhere in my registry that almost any
> Windows program call _must_ be proceeded by using winsvrc.exe, which it
> can't find.  A Windows-looking dialog asks its location.  Of course it
> doesn't exist.  I tried to fool it by creating an empty file _called_
> winsvrc.exe in the root directory but then the virus simply claims that
> _none_ of my programs are Windows 95 programs and cannot be run.  The
> desktop opened more or less normally & Windows Explorer (which had been
> open) worked ok but I could not run any significant or system program.        It may be expecting some kind of return from that winsvrc.exe
whenever it is run.  I don't do Windows, so I don't know whether it is a
standard program which the trojan deleted, or something that it was
going to add to do more mischief every time you booted or tried to run
some other program.> I'm a good backer-upper and wished to restore User.dat, (user.da0 is also
> corrupted by this wiseguy), and System.dat and System.ini and Win.ini (just
> to be sure - I don't know I need them all) But back-up is a windows-based
> program and won't work.
>
> Finally, since I (cheerfully patting myself on the back with both hands and
> both feet) use Backup Version 6 from Win 3.95 (because it will _include_
> selected files, not just _exclude_ them) I was able to drop to DOS and
> restore the 4 files.
>
> I suffered no loss at all except about two hours of confusion.        You probably need to find reports of this in some of the
anti-virus sites, to see whether it also adds other nasty programs
(perhaps named the same as a normal system program) which will bite you
later.> Strongly recommend:
> Look out for e-mail of 546 or so lines        Look out for *any* executable attachment.  Treat it like a
scorpion or a poisonous snake.  (I'm fairly safe, because I don't run a
system which knows *how* to run a .exe file. :-)> Back up the 4 system files in such a way they can be restored in DOS
>         eg Win 3.x Back-up or perhaps create a Safe folder (directory) &
> just copy them from \Windows to this.
>         You'll need some DOS program that will deal with deleting, and
> copying files that are marked Read-only, System, and Hidden.  (Norton
> Commander or FA.exe to change the characturists, eg.)  Windows Explorer may
> work if you can get _it_ to work.        While you're about it -- keep copies of the programs which you
use for restoring on floppies, in case what you have gets blown away.
And *don't* trust a folder which is on the system when the virus
strikes.  It may search through for other copies to corrupt.  It is a
*lot* safer having the backups on floppies or tapes.  And -- when you
try to restore, to have the write-protection tab turned on, so the virus
can't trash your backups while you are trying to restore.        I *hope* that you got it all -- but visit symantec's site, or
one of the others, to make *sure* about it.        Good Luck,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Neil Rosenberg just sent this to the Canadian folklore list.  Peacock
was a prolific and at times controversial collector who worked in
several different parts of the country.  He is probably best known for
his three volume collection, _Songs of the Newfoundland Outports_.Cheers
Jamie>Anna Guigne tells me that Kenneth Peacock died last Wednesday.
>He'd been in poor health for some time, and had been in hospital where
>he
>contracted pneumonia.  I haven't seen anything about this in
>print--though
>perhaps it was in the G&M which I haven't seen since then.  Anyhow, I
>think
>it's important to note his passing since he did so much for the study of
>vernacular music in Canada. Perhaps you can send a note to our
>FSAC  "list"?>Cheers
>N.>Neil V. Rosenberg,  Department of Folklore
>Memorial University of Newfoundland, St. John's, NF A1B 3X8
>Office: 709-737-8405; fax: 709-737-4718

Ed,Many thanks for the plug for Sandy's festschrift, which finally arrived
from the printers a few weeks ago.  The Folklife Center's books are
distributed regionally, but anyone outside northern New England may
find it easier to order directly from the Maine Folklife Center, 5773
South Stevens, University of Maine, Orono, 04469-5773.Cheers
Jamie

Hi Andy:
Singing Soldiers, by John J. Niles.  NY - London:  Chas Scribner's Sons,
1927.  Dedication:
"To the American Negro Soldiers who made this writing possible."  (!)
According to the Introduction, Niles was a member of the A.E.F. when, in
Paris in 1917, he "ran onto a paper-bound volume of French war-songs by
Monsieur Theodore Botrel, titled 'Les Chants du BIvouac.'"  Niles says that
gave him the idea to collect US Army war songs:  "...to make as nearly as
possible an unexpurgate record of the words and to write off the tunes
whenever I had time and music-score paper."  He goes on to say that he was
almost losing interest in the project when he encountered some negro troops:
"At last I had discovered something original--a kind of folk music, brought
up to date and adapted to the war situations--at the same time savoring of
the haunting melodic value found in the negro music I had known as a boy in
Kentucky."  So he spent the next seven years, while a pilot in the U.S. Air
Service, gathering songs.  He ended up with 29 songs, embedded in sort of a
personal diary of his experiences.   Most of the songs are unfamiliar; a few
are parodies of familiar spirituals (e.g., "Roll Jordan Roll); a few are
blues-like.  I can't vouch for the accuracy of the transcriptions, but I'd
be really surprised if J.J. wrote--or even did more than minor touching
up--any of them. That's a quick summary; hope it's useful.
Norm-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Rouse <[unmask]>
To: [unmask] <[unmask]>
Date: Saturday, November 25, 2000 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: John Jacob Niles>Dear Norm,
>
>Could you elaborate on "Singing Soldiers" a little more?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Andy
>

Is there an email address?
Norm
>
>Many thanks for the plug for Sandy's festschrift, which finally arrived
>from the printers a few weeks ago.  The Folklife Center's books are
>distributed regionally, but anyone outside northern New England may
>find it easier to order directly from the Maine Folklife Center, 5773
>South Stevens, University of Maine, Orono, 04469-5773.
>
>Cheers
>Jamie
>

Norm:Sorry, no email address on the book.  The University of Maine Press,
Orono, ought to be in the telephone directory.  The ISBN number is
0-89101-100-5.EdOn Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Norm Cohen wrote:> Is there an email address?
> Norm
> >
> >Many thanks for the plug for Sandy's festschrift, which finally arrived
> >from the printers a few weeks ago.  The Folklife Center's books are
> >distributed regionally, but anyone outside northern New England may
> >find it easier to order directly from the Maine Folklife Center, 5773
> >South Stevens, University of Maine, Orono, 04469-5773.
> >
> >Cheers
> >Jamie
> >
>

You can e-mail Pauleena MacDougall at [unmask]  I
can't wait till my copy arrives.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Ed Cray
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 1:13 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Brief MentionsNorm:Sorry, no email address on the book.  The University of Maine Press,
Orono, ought to be in the telephone directory.  The ISBN number is
0-89101-100-5.EdOn Mon, 27 Nov 2000, Norm Cohen wrote:> Is there an email address?
> Norm
> >
> >Many thanks for the plug for Sandy's festschrift, which finally arrived
> >from the printers a few weeks ago.  The Folklife Center's books are
> >distributed regionally, but anyone outside northern New England may
> >find it easier to order directly from the Maine Folklife Center, 5773
> >South Stevens, University of Maine, Orono, 04469-5773.
> >
> >Cheers
> >Jamie
> >
>

The center's e-mail address is [unmask]  There is also
a web page at www.umaine.edu/folklife, though we're still in the
process of updating the publications section.  Should be taken care of
this week.Cheers
Jamie

A couple of years ago, I had a brief correspondence with JJN's son.
As I recall, he was a musician, perhaps a conductor, living in
Germany.  He might be able to help out with these questions.  He
defended his father to me, saying that he was an entertainer who
never claimed to be a scholar.
--
john garst    [unmask]

You are referring to John Edward Niles, son of John Jacob.  He is currently
Director and conductor at the Opera Theatre of Northern Virginia.   It would be
interesting for you to continue that conversation in light of this discussion.
However,  you probably got all you're gonna git!   ( Look here:
http://www.alamero.com/demo/index.htm) .Is there a second son also involved with music?John Garst <[unmask]>@[unmask]> on 11/28/2000 01:39:26 PMPlease respond to Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>Sent by:  Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>To:   [unmask]
cc:Subject:  Re: John Jacob NilesA couple of years ago, I had a brief correspondence with JJN's son.
As I recall, he was a musician, perhaps a conductor, living in
Germany.  He might be able to help out with these questions.  He
defended his father to me, saying that he was an entertainer who
never claimed to be a scholar.
--
john garst    [unmask]

Catching up after the holidays.  Has anyone yet suggested getting in touch
with Ron Pen at Kentucky?  He's studied Niles serious for some time now.
Unless someone else surfaces sooner, I expect that Ron will do the Niles
book.In the summer of 1953 Niles performed at Aspen, Colorado, near Glenwood
Springs, where I was waiting tables in a resort hotel.  He sang many of
the pieces I knew from his LPs, and his voice had that same high
theatrical cast.  My memory (admittedly dim at this point) is that he
plucked/strummed a cello that had been cut in half along the sides (i.e.,
retaining the front surface) and whenever possible, at the ends of
phrases, wafted his right arm into the air so that the brilliant rings he
was wearing caught the light.  Made quite an impression on all the
blue-haired ladies present.JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL  61820-6975
(217) 244-4681
[unmask]On Sat, 25 Nov 2000, roud wrote:> Thanks to everyone who has contributed to the Niles discussion. It's clear
> that few of us trust his publications, but it's a shame there doesn't seem
> to have been a proper study of his work from this point of view, as I think
> we still need to answer some basic questions.
> His publications of the 1930s (Songs of the Hill-Folk, and More Songs of
> the Hill-Folk, for example) follow the standard pattern for 'popular' books
> of the time. The cover and title-page state "Collected and simply
> arranged... by John Jacob Niles", and each song is attributed to a
> particular place (e.g. "Whitesburg, Letcher County, Kentucky"). Thus the
> authenticity of the songs is implied but not really stated, and being
> popular works we know to treat them with caution.
> His Ballad Book of 1961, however, is in a completely different league. It
> has all the paraphernalia of a scholarly collection. Each song is
> accompanied by the name of the singer(s), their address, the date of
> recording, sketches of their character, and incidental details of when and
> how he met them.
> On the surface, this seems to be everything we could wish for. But we still
> mistrust him, and not only for his peculiar-looking instruments! Did he
> invent the whole thing, cobbling together texts from books and pretending
> they were from singers who didn't really exist? Did he really collect from
> these people but 'doctor/edit/fake' their texts? The Ballad Book was
> published less that 25 years after the supposed dates of collection, I would
> have thought the complete fake would have been relatively easily exposed by
> the real experts who were around at the time and who were perfectly happy to
> savage each other for sloppy scholarship. Is there anything which can be
> salvaged from his material, or do we simply resign it to the dustbin en
> masse?
> It is perhaps ominous that the only major collection of his papers which I
> have tracked down (I've misplaced the correspondence for a moment, but can
> let people know details if they wish to follow it up) apparently contains no
> fieldwork material at all.
> If someone's looking for a Thesis topic, may I suggest Niles as a potential
> subject?
> (I've just, somewhat belatedly, checked the JAF Centennial Index, and there
> are a few reviews which need following up, which I will report on if they
> say anything relevant).
> Steve Roud

Dear Andy,
Another (indirect) Robin Hood item in Shakespeare is his use of 'under
the greenwood tree' in As You Like It 2.5.1 or thereabouts.  It comes
into that fabulous ballad Robin Hood and the Monk (Child 119), which I
would be eternally grateful to you for providing a tune for.Cheers, Gerald

Gerald --The only tune I've seen to Child 119 is in _The Ballad Book of John Jacob
Niles_.  (Boston, MA, Houghton Mifflin Co., 1961.)  As you know, this
collection has been much excoriated b y scholars, and it may be that the song
was composed by Mr. Niles himself.  Nevertheless, it's a good singable tune.
The words do not contain any reference to the Greenwood Tree. If you don't
have access to the book, and are interested,  I'll be glad to send you a
Xerox copy, for which I would need your snail-mail address.Sam Hinton
9420 La Jolla Shores Drive
La Jolla, CA, USA, 92037
< [unmask] >

Judy McCulloh wrote
>My memory (admittedly dim at this point) is that he
>plucked/strummed a cello that had been cut in half along the sides (i.e.,
>retaining the front surface)I have a big awkward dulcimer given to me by a woman from NY in the early
60s, supposedly made by Niles.  There is no signiture.  The frets seem to
be totally random, I don't see how it could have been played, but perhaps
it was fretted for one particular song, an odd tune it would be.I never heard Niles in person, but did enjoy his recordings, and respected
his interest in the long ballad.Margaret MacArthur

I have submitted this to the mudcat dt with no luck yet....
What do you think....
Does anyone have the tune referred to or other music for this?
Many thanks in advance for your fine work....ConradSword Dancers
 It is still the practice, though less in repute than formerly, during the
Christmas holidays, for companies of pitmen and other workmen from the
neighbouring collieries to visit
 Sunderland, Durham, &c. to perform a sort of Play or Dance, accompanied by
song and music. Their appearance is hailed by the children with great satisfaction, and
they receive liberal contributions from the spectators.
 The dancers are girded with swords, and clad in white shirts or tunics,
decorated with a profusion of ribbands, or various colours, gathered from
the wardrobes of their mistresses and
 well-wishers.  The captain generallly wears a kind of faded uniform, with
a large cocked hat and feather, for pre-eminent distinction; and the
buffoon, or "Bessy," who acts as treasurer,
 and collects the cash in a tobacco-box, wears a hairy cap, with a fox's
brush* dependent.
 The music is simple, and not devoid of harmony: its peculiar beauty
depends, perhaps greatly, on the force of early associations.
 The party assemble promiscuously, and the captain forms a circle with his
sword, round which he walks, and sings; each actor following as he is
called upon. Six actors I have brought,
 Who were never on stage before;
 But they will do their best,
 And the best can do no more. The first that I call in,
 He is a squire's son;
 He's like to lose his love,
 Because he is too young. But though he be too young,
 He has money for to rove;
 And he will spend it all,
 Before he'll lose his love. The next that I call in,
 He is a taylor fine;
 What think you of his work?--
 He made this coat of mine. So comes good master Snip,
 His best respects to pay:
 He joins us in our trip,
 To drive dull care away. The next that I call in,
 He is a sailor bold;
 He's come to poverty
 By the lending of his gold. But though his gold's all gone,
 Again he'll plough the main,
 With heart both light and brave,
 To fight both France and Spain. Next comes a skipper bold,
 He'll do his part right weel;
 A clever blade, I'm told,
 As ever poy'd** a keel, Oh! the keel lads are bonny bonny lads,
 As I do understand;
 For they run both fore and aft,
 With their long sets in their hands. To join us in this play,
 Here comes a jolly dog,
 Who's soberevery day,
 When he can get no grog. But though he likes his grog,
 As all his friends can say,
 He always likes it best,
 When he has nought to pay. Last I come in mysel,
 I make one of this crew;
 And if you'd know my name,
 My name it is True Blue. *** The Dance then begins in slow, and measured cadence; which soon increases
in spirit, and at length bears the appearance of a serious
 affray.  The Rector, alarmed rushes forward to prevent bloodshed; and, in
his endeavours to separate the combatants, he receives a mortal blow, and
falls to the ground.
 Then follows the lament--the general accusation - and denial. Alas! our rector's dead,
 And on the ground is laid;
 some of us must suffer for't,
 Young men, I'm sore afraid. I'm sure 'twas none of I--
 I'm clear of the crime;
 'Twas him that follows me
 That drew his sword so fine. I'm sure 'twas none of I--
 I'm clear of the fact;
 'Twas him that follows me
 That did this bloody act. I'm sure 'twas none of I,
 Ye bloody villains all!
 For both my eyes were shut
 When this good man did fall. Then cheer up, my bonny bonny lads,
 And be of courage bold;
 For we'll take him to the church,
 and we'll bury him in the mould. Captain.--Oh! for a doctor, a right good doctor,
                  A ten pound doctor, oh! Doctor.-- Here am I. Captain-- Doctor, what's your fee? Doctor-- Ten pounds is my fee; but nine pounds, nineteen shillings, and
eleven pence,
               three farthings, will I take from thee. See here, see here, a doctor rare,
 Who travels much at home;
 Come, take my pills--they cure all ills,
 Past present and to come. The plague, the palsy, and the gout,
 The devil within, and the devil without--
 Every thing but a love-sick maid--
 And a consumption in the pocket. Take a little of my nif-naf,
 Put it on your tif-taf.
 Parson, rise up, and fight again,
 The doctor says you are not slain. The rector gradually recovers, which is the signal for general rejoicing
and congratulation. Captain-- You've seen them all call'd in,
 You've seen them all go round;
 Wait but a little while--
 Some pastime will be found. Cox-green's a bonny place,
 Where water washes clean;
 And Painshaw's on a hill,
 Where we have merry been. Then, fiddler, change thy tune,
 Play us a merry jig;
 Before that I'll be beat,
 I'll pawn both hat and wig. A general dance concludes the performance, to the old and favorite tune
of,
 "Kitty, Kitty, bo, bo!" *Query- if this was not formerly meant to represent the Lion's skin of the
ancient heros; and this is not the only classical allusion used by the
Sword Dancers, for a "Bessy" on the
 borders of Yorkshire, was heard to sing:
 "I've liv'd among musick these forty long years,
 And Drunk of the elegant spring"
 There can be little doubt that Helicon was the original reading. **Puoy, Puy, or Pouie, a long pole with an iron spike at the end; used in
propelling keels in shallow water.--Fr. appui. Brockett's Glossary. The
Puoy on the Tyne is the Set on the Wear. *** AT this part, the "Bessy" sometimes considers it necessary to give
some account of his own genealogy, viz:
 My father he was hang'd
 My mother was drown'd in a well;
 And now I' se left alone,
 All by my awn sel. -source: The Bishoprick Garland or a Collection of Legends, Songs Ballads
&c.. Belonging to The County of Durham. London: Nichols, and Baldwin &
Cradock.
 1834.

Looks like something from the old Mummers Plays that show up in the annual
Christmas Revels productions, Conrad.  It's sung to a simple morris dance
tune.  The charm is in the "acting."  Check the Washington Revels website
and go from there:  www.revelsdc.orgI'm attending the Washington production tonight (dress rehearsal show).
I'll see what form the play takes in the Celtic production (if it's there).Happy hunting.Mary Cliff, TRADITIONS
WETA Radio
Washington, DC

Of all things it was in the back of the book....
presumably though this is not the only tune used in the
dance....
It will be up on the related page with midi and notation
in a moment
http://www.geocities.com/matalizi/priests12.htmlT:Kitty Bo-Bo (Sword Dance Tune)
M:3/4
L:1/8
S:Bishoprick Garland
K:G
|gfed g/2f/2e/2d/2|B2G2B2|gfed g/2f/2e/2d/2|A2F2A2:||:GBdBdc|B2G2B2|GBdB
dB|A2F2A2:|Conrad Bladey

Ok I am ready for a break...must be all that liquid nails
used in working on the artcar (glued 30 more barbies on the cab roof of the
truck via magnet...)
I found the book had both tunes !@!@!@!#
so now the tunes you did know you can know!
Just go here midi, abc, notation....
http://www.geocities.com/matalzi/priests12.html#SworddancersConradConrad Bladey ***Peasant**** wrote:
>
> Of all things it was in the back of the book....
> presumably though this is not the only tune used in the
> dance....
> It will be up on the related page with midi and notation
> in a moment
> http://www.geocities.com/matalizi/priests12.html
>
> T:Kitty Bo-Bo (Sword Dance Tune)
> M:3/4
> L:1/8
> S:Bishoprick Garland
> K:G
> |gfed g/2f/2e/2d/2|B2G2B2|gfed g/2f/2e/2d/2|A2F2A2:||:GBdBdc|B2G2B2|GBdB
> dB|A2F2A2:|
>
> Conrad Bladey--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Do You want to know more? Simply send an e.mail to this address-
[unmask]
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Conrad found the tunes in the first paragraph below while I was working
on this note. I forgot to change the reply address to that of Ballad-L,
so my message, below, went only to him. Here it is for all on the list.[My reprint edition, 1969, of Sharp's 'Bishopric Garland' has, on
pp 85-6, some tunes said to be from 'From Topliffe's Melodies
&c.', the first of which is entitled "Sword Dancers", and the
second is that of "Kitty-bo-bo".]That is, I believe the earliest recorded folk play. (The earlier
Revesby/ Raresby play is modeled along the lines of a folk play,
but isn't really 'folk'. Note that one song in it is based on "Last
Christmas 'twas my chance". Song and tune are on my website.)Two verses in Sharp's text, starting "See, here, see here a doctor rare"
are derived from a song with music in 'Pills to Purge Melancholy', V, p.
311, 1719-20 (originally in 'Pills', IV, 1706), where it starts "See,
sirs, see here! a Doctor rare". The 'Pills' heading is: 'The Mountebank
Song. Set and Sung by Mr. Leveridge, in a New Play call'd Farewell to
Folly', which is not quite correct. I've now lost my very old notes
tracking this, but according to my memory the song wasn't in Motteux's
play, but was sung as an interlude with it. The play was given at Drury
Lane Theatre in 1705 and published in 1707. [Some other folk plays
contain a bit more of the 'Pills' song. In others the doctor's lines are
based on a similar song "The Infallible Doctor", commencing 'From
France, from Spain from Rome I come', dating from 1686, and in 'Pills',
III, p. 31, 1719-20. The model for these mountebank doctors' songs is in
a manuscript of a court entertainment of 1618, 'The Anti-Masque of the
Mountebanks', much of which is reprinted in John Wardroper's 'Love and
Drollery', #220, 1969]Re: 'elegant spring' may have been originally been 'Helicon
spring', if so, it later turned into 'elecampagne', an extract of
the roots of which was used as a tonic or stimulant. We find it
in later folk plays as 'elecome pain', 'elegant paint', and
'Hallecumb pain' among the doctor's medicines (of which two drops
can restore the dead to life - R. J. E. Tiddy's 'The Mummers
Play'). [Cf. also 'Waters of Absalon' in the cante-fable "Little
Dicky Milburn/ Whigburn"]Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Folks:For those not subscribed to the Folklore list --In those 7,000 broadsides there just might be a song or two.Ed-----Original Message-----
From: Danna Bell-Russel [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 12:08 PM
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Subject: Announcement of Update to the American Time Capsule Collection
of Broadsides and Printed Ephemera in American MemoryGood afternoon,This announcement is being sent to a number of lists. Please accept our
apologies for any duplicate postings.Update to An American Time Capsule: Three Centuries of Broadsides and
Other Printed Ephemera Now Available on American Memory In September 1998 An American Time Capsule: Three Centuries of
Broadsides and Other Printed Ephemera was made available to users of the
American Memory online collections. On November 30, more than seven
thousand additional items from one of the world’s greatest collections
of Americana will be added to An American Time Capsule. The collection
can be found at the following url:
<http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/rbpehtml/> . Taken from the Library of Congress’s celebrated Printed Ephemera
Collection in the Rare Book and Special Collections Division, the
materials include such highlights as:The first broadside account of Washington crossing the Delaware River in
1776.The Gerry-Mander, the 1812 caricature of the salamander-shaped
congressional district created by Federalist polemicists to satirize the
Massachusetts redistricting law spawned by zealous Republican colleagues
of Gov. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts.A Western anti-slavery handbill, ca. 1850, urging Ohioans to “TURN OUT!”
for an abolition meeting and “Learn Your Duty to Yourselves, the Slave
and God.”The final issue of the Vicksburg Daily Citizen, July 4, 1863, printed on
wallpaper.An 1864 campaign souvenir “Lincoln Business Card,” suggesting that in
the spring of 1865 Lincoln would be at home in Illinois splitting rails
and swapping horses rather than residing at the White House.A reward poster for John Wilkes Booth (1865).One of the earliest printed references to baseball (1859).The National Woman Suffrage Association’s “Declaration and Protest of
the Women of the United States,” July 4, 1876, calling for the
impeachment of the nation's rulers.A poster from the mayor of San Francisco printed following the
earthquake and fire of 1906, warning that law enforcement officials
“have been authorized to KILL any and all persons found engaged in
Looting or in the Commission of Any Other Crime.”Much of the material in this collection was produced as events unfolded,
offering a unique snapshot of America's past that captures the concerns
and conditions of everyday living. Many of the items, never intended to
be kept for future generations, nonetheless provide important historical
information.  For example, an advertisement for paint from 1783 gives
clues about the colors that adorned the homes of the nation's earliest
citizens.  An 1840 poster for a lost dog shows that owners felt as
strongly about their pets 150 years ago as they do today.American Memory  is a project of the National Digital Library Program of
the Library of Congress. The Web site offers more than five million
historically important items of American history, in collaboration with
other institutions. More than ninety American Memory collections are now
available on topics ranging from presidential papers and photographs
from the Civil War to early films of Thomas Edison and panoramic maps,
to documents from the women's suffrage
and civil rights movements. The Library of Congress website can be found
at <www.loc.gov> .Please direct any questions to [unmask]

Indeed!
I was just in rare books at loc last week searching the
bound index.
Located a pamphlet on pope day but in the same file.....
a broadside from boston - not cataloged!
18th c.
Before I had a chance to fill in the form to have it copied
and go across the street to pay up and wait....
I had confirmation from a phonecall to the appropriate
office that it had just been digitized and would be on line
this week.....
So there it was today....
and not only images but full text....ConradEd Cray wrote:
>
> Folks:
>
> For those not subscribed to the Folklore list --
>
> In those 7,000 broadsides there just might be a song or two.
>
> Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Danna Bell-Russel [mailto:[unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 12:08 PM
> To: undisclosed-recipients:
> Subject: Announcement of Update to the American Time Capsule Collection
> of Broadsides and Printed Ephemera in American Memory
>
> Good afternoon,
>
> This announcement is being sent to a number of lists. Please accept our
> apologies for any duplicate postings.
>
> Update to An American Time Capsule: Three Centuries of Broadsides and
> Other Printed Ephemera Now Available on American Memory
>
>  In September 1998 An American Time Capsule: Three Centuries of
> Broadsides and Other Printed Ephemera was made available to users of the
> American Memory online collections. On November 30, more than seven
> thousand additional items from one of the world’s greatest collections
> of Americana will be added to An American Time Capsule. The collection
> can be found at the following url:
> <http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/rbpehtml/> .
>
>  Taken from the Library of Congress’s celebrated Printed Ephemera
> Collection in the Rare Book and Special Collections Division, the
> materials include such highlights as:
>
> The first broadside account of Washington crossing the Delaware River in
> 1776.
>
> The Gerry-Mander, the 1812 caricature of the salamander-shaped
> congressional district created by Federalist polemicists to satirize the
> Massachusetts redistricting law spawned by zealous Republican colleagues
> of Gov. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts.
>
> A Western anti-slavery handbill, ca. 1850, urging Ohioans to “TURN OUT!”
> for an abolition meeting and “Learn Your Duty to Yourselves, the Slave
> and God.”
>
> The final issue of the Vicksburg Daily Citizen, July 4, 1863, printed on
> wallpaper.
>
> An 1864 campaign souvenir “Lincoln Business Card,” suggesting that in
> the spring of 1865 Lincoln would be at home in Illinois splitting rails
> and swapping horses rather than residing at the White House.
>
> A reward poster for John Wilkes Booth (1865).
>
> One of the earliest printed references to baseball (1859).
>
> The National Woman Suffrage Association’s “Declaration and Protest of
> the Women of the United States,” July 4, 1876, calling for the
> impeachment of the nation's rulers.
>
> A poster from the mayor of San Francisco printed following the
> earthquake and fire of 1906, warning that law enforcement officials
> “have been authorized to KILL any and all persons found engaged in
> Looting or in the Commission of Any Other Crime.”
>
> Much of the material in this collection was produced as events unfolded,
> offering a unique snapshot of America's past that captures the concerns
> and conditions of everyday living. Many of the items, never intended to
> be kept for future generations, nonetheless provide important historical
> information.  For example, an advertisement for paint from 1783 gives
> clues about the colors that adorned the homes of the nation's earliest
> citizens.  An 1840 poster for a lost dog shows that owners felt as
> strongly about their pets 150 years ago as they do today.
>
> American Memory  is a project of the National Digital Library Program of
> the Library of Congress. The Web site offers more than five million
> historically important items of American history, in collaboration with
> other institutions. More than ninety American Memory collections are now
> available on topics ranging from presidential papers and photographs
> from the Civil War to early films of Thomas Edison and panoramic maps,
> to documents from the women's suffrage
> and civil rights movements. The Library of Congress website can be found
> at <www.loc.gov> .
>
> Please direct any questions to [unmask]--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Do You want to know more? Simply send an e.mail to this address-
[unmask]
Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
My ICQ # is  4699667
Instant messenger= lippet
#####################################################

On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 10:07:32AM -0400, John Garst wrote:
> >...As you say not so well known as the bawdy song....
> >Jamie
>
> Is this "bawdy song" the one with "see the waters a-gliding and hear
> the nightingale sing"?  If so, are there really bawdy versions of
> this?  The ones I've seen/heard are suggestive in very polite terms
> only.        The best kind!  The one I like to sing is Melvin Wine's "The Logger,"
where the lines        But he tuned up his fiddle, raised higher the string,
        And then he played the same tune over and over again.can be interpreted differently, depending on your state of mind.        This same version contains the deathless variant line        Two wives makes an army, too many for me!Which is the main reason I learned the song in the first place. -- Aloha,
Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Greetings:
You may (or may not) be relieved to know that I have successfully re-subscribed
to ballad-l and, for the moment at least, can post directly to the list rather
than by ricochet with attendant header pendants.
        I did read this thread more leisurely, and am sorry I missed the early
response which did indeed cite the Riverside recordings, as well as (that
I missed) the source of the provisional list.  I do not regret having quoted
Ken Goldstein some re his choices.
        At the AFS meetings Lyn Wolz discussed Steve Roud's indexes, which include
"Roud numbers" which he added in order to provide a rough indication of families
of ballads, much like Laws or DT or (other) schemes, not with the intention of
graving these numbers in stone but to provide some hint as to potential kinship.
She reports that other researchers are now using these Roud numbers because they
are handy, as labels tend to be,  (Her presentation was a brief comparison-evaluation
of online song databases, which she promised to post on her website.  She's a
reference librarian at the University of Kansas, and says she's working with
Steve Roud to make his databases available/accessible on the 'Net.)
        Thinking about it, her paper was, for me, one of the high points of this
particular conference because it brought together and evaluated information that
I've been sort of accumulating over the years, and in compact and meaningful
form.  I hope she gets it together soon! -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

>  From [unmask] Fri Nov  3 20:14:37 2000
>  Date:         Fri, 3 Nov 2000 17:04:33 -0800
>  From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
>  Subject:      Re: Childless Ballads
>  Comments: cc: [unmask]
>  To: [unmask]
>
>          This same version contains the deathless variant line
>
>          Two wives makes an army, too many for me!
>
>  Which is the main reason I learned the song in the first place. -- Aloha,
>  LaniOh shoot, I always thought it was "two wives *and* the army's too many for
me".

In M. J. C. Hodgart's 'The Ballads', 1950, in the Introduction he
says:'... But there are a few others of the same type which Child
overlooked or rejected. ..."The Bitter Withy", "Still Growing", "Corpus Christi [Down in yon
Forest]", "The Seven Virgins", "The Blind Beggar['s Daughter] of
Bethnal Green", "Bruton Town, "The Shooting of his Dear", "The
Bold Fisherman", and more doubtfully "Six Dukes went A-fishing".
..........'_____________The MacColl and Lloyd recording of non-Child ballads, Riverside
RLP 12-629 (later Washington 723) includes all, and adds "The
Holy Well", noting that 'Various scholars consider "The Holy
Well" to be but an interesting version of "The Bitter Withy"
ballad.'The incomplete BL copy of "The Noble Funeral of the Renowned
Champion the Duke of Grafton.. slain at the Siege of Cork"
(ZN316), from which  "Six Duke went A-fishing" stems, has been
printed in JFSS, 1908, and FMJ, 1965. Anyone have ready access to
the copy in the Morgan Library, New York?Bruce OlsonPS: The 17th century text of "The Nightingale's Song" is in the
Scarce Songs 1 file on my website, and is noted at ZN277 in the
broadside ballad index there.Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

ghost:>Oh shoot, I always thought it was "two wives *and* the army's too many for
>me".And I hear, in the Shorty and Juanita recording, "Two wives *in* the
army's too many for me."
--
john garst    [unmask]

In a message dated 06/11/2000  19:44:21, you write:<< And I hear, in the Shorty and Juanita recording, "Two wives *in* the
 army's too many for me." >>A different song - "The Gentleman Soldier" - for which see the Penguin Book
of English Folk Songs" (And the EFDSS Journal and its predecessor) has the
line:"Two wives are allowed in the army but one's too many for me."John Moulden

I forgot to add part of Hodgart's quotation in 'The Ballads',
just before his list of 'Childless ballads': 'Only nine of them
are worth considering: The Bitter Withy, [etc]...'.Gordon H. Gerould, 'The Ballad of Tradition', 1932 (from reprint,
1957) gave only 7 'Childless Ballads': "The Bitter Withy", "The
Blind Beggar of Bednall Green", "The Seven Virgins", "The
Shooting of his Dear/ Molly Bawn", "Over Yonders a Park/ Corpus
Christi", "Bruton Town/ The Bramble Briar", and "The Bold
Fisherman". [Missing from Hodgart's (later) list are "Long A-
growing" and "Six Dukes went A-fishing"]He says: '"The Shooting of his Dear", or "Molly Bawn", ...
[irrelevant] ..., has been proved to have an elaborate
traditional history, though no version can be praised for its
beauty. It cannot be denied a place in the category.'............Long A-growing: From pooling of information in two threads in
August (Lang A Growing and The Trees they grow so High), it
appears that three published versions of "Young Craigstoun/
Craigston" all derive from a single copy in a manuscript, the
published versions stemming from a transcript made by C. K.
Sharpe. I'm all but certain that the original is the one in the
Glenbuchat collection, which Wm. Stenhouse noted in
'Illustrations to The Scots Musical Museum', #377.Bruce Olson--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Ruairidh:I retrieved the long and affectionate obituary by Charles Eliot Norton of
his good friend F.J. Child as published in the Proceedings XXXII (1897),
pp. 333-339.  Of Child's youth, he writes:Francis James Child was born in Boston, on the 1st of February, 1825.  His
fathr was a sailmaker, one of that class of intelligent and independent
mechanics which has had a large share in determining the character of our
democratic community, as of old the same class had in Athens and in
Florence.  The boy was the third in a family of eight brothers and
sisters.  He was sent to the public schools.  His unusual capacities were
early displayed.  He stood first in  his classes, and was a favorite with
his schoolfellows.  At the English High School he won all the prizes, and
having by chance attracted the attention of our venerable felwlow citizen,
Mr. Epes S. Dixwell, then the Master of the Latin School, his father was
induced, at Mr. Dixwell's suggestion, to allow him to proceed to the
Latin school, that he might continue his studies and be prepared for
entrance to college.  He speedily caught up with the boys who had already
made progress in the study of Greek and Latin, and soon took the first
place here, as he had done in the schools which he had previously
attended.  The sweetness of his disposition, the pleasant mingling in his
nature of gay spirits and serious purpose, his high principles, his
unaffected modesty won the affection of his teachers and of his
comrades.  His superiority in his classes so so unmingled with pretension
or conceit, that it was admitted without question or envy."Child matricualted, with the financial assistance of Dixwell, then repaid
him with interest, according to Norton's obit.As time permits, I will look for other obits of Child, and see what I can
piece together.EdOn Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Ruairidh Greig wrote:> Does anyone have a copy of Professor Norton's article on Child published in
> the Proceedings of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, XXXII,334,
> 335? I would be interested to know if it gave any more details about his
> early life.
>
> Ruairidh Greig
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Childless Ballads
>
>
> > That was the mock-opera Il Pescabello. Child also wrote at least one
> > Civil-War song. While he may have heard one or more ballads informally, I
> > believe that his book(s) had only published sources.
> >
> > On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Ed Cray wrote:
> >
> > > John:
> > >
> > > F.J. Child, a son of Boston and Harvard, was at least nominally aware of
> > > what were known as "traditional ballads."  While in school, he was
> reputed
> > > to be the author of a stage play, "The Story of the Lone Fishball [?],"
> a
> > > copy of which does not seem to have survived.  During the Civil War,
> ahem,
> > > the War Between the States, he edited an anthology of pro-Union and
> > > patriotic poetry which included some songs.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, Child was the son of a Boston sailmaker.  I cannot imagine
> > > that he would have remained entirely ignorant of sea songs if he spent
> any
> > > time at all in his father's sail loft.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> >
>

On Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> As time permits, I will look for other obits of Child, and see what
> I can piece together.There is a charming one by G. L. Kittredge, quoting several paragraphs
of Norton's, in Vol. I of the _Ballads_.---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Big prizes make many losers.  :||

>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Date:         Tue, 7 Nov 2000 15:33:53 -0500
>Reply-To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
>Sender: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
>From: Bruce Olson <[unmask]>
>Subject:      Re: Chilldless Ballads
>To: [unmask]
>
>I forgot to add part of Hodgart's quotation in 'The Ballads',
>just before his list of 'Childless ballads': 'Only nine of them
>are worth considering: The Bitter Withy, [etc]...'.
>
>Gordon H. Gerould, 'The Ballad of Tradition', 1932 (from reprint,
>1957) gave only 7 'Childless Ballads': "The Bitter Withy", "The
>Blind Beggar of Bednall Green", "The Seven Virgins", "The
>Shooting of his Dear/ Molly Bawn", "Over Yonders a Park/ Corpus
>Christi", "Bruton Town/ The Bramble Briar", and "The Bold
>Fisherman". [Missing from Hodgart's (later) list are "Long A-
>growing" and "Six Dukes went A-fishing"]
>
>He says: '"The Shooting of his Dear", or "Molly Bawn", ...
>[irrelevant] ..., has been proved to have an elaborate
>traditional history, though no version can be praised for its
>beauty. It cannot be denied a place in the category.'
>
>............
>
>Long A-growing: From pooling of information in two threads in
>August (Lang A Growing and The Trees they grow so High), it
>appears that three published versions of "Young Craigstoun/
>Craigston" all derive from a single copy in a manuscript, the
>published versions stemming from a transcript made by C. K.
>Sharpe. I'm all but certain that the original is the one in the
>Glenbuchat collection, which Wm. Stenhouse noted in
>'Illustrations to The Scots Musical Museum', #377.
>
>Bruce Olson
>
>--
>Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
>ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
>or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>

>From: Newsletter Manager <[unmask]>
>To: "[unmask]" <[unmask]>
>Subject: Tips and Updates from WritersDigest.com 11-07-00
>Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 17:17:05 -0500
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>Tips and Updates From Writer's Digest, 11-7-00
>For [unmask]
>
>http://www.writersdigest.com
>Your online guide to the writing life.
>
>========================================================
>Join Writer's Digest Book Club today and Choose 2 Books
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>http://www.writersdigest.com/wdbc to learn more.
>========================================================
>
>ON TAP TODAY
>
>* Letter From the Editor
>* Congratulations Brainstormer Winners
>* Fiction Software: What to Buy
>* News of the World...Wide Web
>* You Might Look Good in a Beret and a Goatee
>* 'On Writing'--and Winning--Like a King
>* E-Zine Promotion 101
>* Deadline Time: WD Zine Publishing Competition
>* Author Events Calendar--Looking Ahead
>* Ask the Editor: The Importance of Clips
>* Enter and Win: Got Any Ideas?
>* Hot Topics in the writersdigest.com Forum
>
>_________________________________________________________
>LETTER FROM THE EDITOR
>
>Welcome back. Today's newsletter reveals the winners of
>our first newsletter exclusive competition the "Fiction
>Writer's Brainstormer" contest. With more than 50 entries,
>the brainstormer competition was steep.
>
>If you didn't win, don't worry--we've still got an
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>Book" up for grabs, and you've got exactly one week to
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>
>This issue also includes a link to the low-down on some
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>brings you up-to-date on the benefits of honing your
>"elevator speech," courtesy of the recently released
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>
>-- Kelly Nickell, Newsletter Editor
>
>Do you have a suggestion or comment about this
>newsletter? Send it in via e-mail to [unmask]
>with "Newsletter Comments" in the subject line.
>
>_________________________________________________________
>CONGRATULATIONS BRAINSTORM WINNERS
>
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>
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>
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>   pronounces wrong?
>   Answer: Wrong is almost always pronounced wrong.
>
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>   Answer: Write, right, rite and Wright are usually
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>
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>   and end with an e?
>   Answer: Fiction always begins with an f, and end
>   always begins with an e.
>
>4. Can you list two words that contain every letter
>   of the alphabet?
>   Answer: The alphabet.
>
>5. What's the commonplace sentence of only nine simple
>   words that uses every letter of the alphabet but does
>   not duplicate a single consonant?
>   Answer: The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.
>
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>Brainstormer," visit:
>http://www.writersdigest.com/catalog/brainstormer.html
>
>_________________________________________________________
>FICTION SOFTWARE: WHAT TO BUY
>
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>
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>
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>_________________________________________________________
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>
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>_________________________________________________________
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Friends:
I'm curious to know how many colleges/universities currently offer courses
in Anglo-American or American folksong or balladry.  Could any of you who do
so (or are at instititutions that do so) drop me a note?
Many thanks,
Norm Cohen

Scandalous as this might sound, I don't think that UNC's folklore program
has offered a course in Anglo-American folksong and balladry since Dan
Patterson retired three or four years ago.  Glenn Hinson teaches
African-American vernacular music, and Terry Zug includes some in an
introduction to folklore class.BruceAt 06:12 PM 11/8/00 -0800, you wrote:
>Friends:
>I'm curious to know how many colleges/universities currently offer courses
>in Anglo-American or American folksong or balladry.  Could any of you who do
>so (or are at instititutions that do so) drop me a note?
>Many thanks,
>Norm Cohen
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce E. Baker
Chapel Hill, NC
[unmask]
NOTE: This email address will probably change
during November 2000 because Mindspring's
service is unreliable.  Look for me at bellsouth.net
probably.http://members.tripod.com/~Bruce_E_Baker

Norm:Let us all know.  Just for curiosity's sake.EdOn Wed, 8 Nov 2000, Norm Cohen wrote:> Friends:
> I'm curious to know how many colleges/universities currently offer courses
> in Anglo-American or American folksong or balladry.  Could any of you who do
> so (or are at instititutions that do so) drop me a note?
> Many thanks,
> Norm Cohen
>

I'll be offering a folksong course here at University of Maine after
Christmas, and I hope to alternate it every other year with a course on
narrative.I don't think a dedicated course in ballads has been offered at
Memorial since David Buchan died in 1994.  Neil Rosenberg and Peter
Narvaez both offer folksong courses (and Peter now offers a blues &
jazz course).Back in the late 80s, Sean Galvin did a survey of American universities
that still offered ballad courses.  It's been a while so I don't recall
the exact results but they weren't encouraging.  If I remeber rightly
he was also able to tie the decline in ballad/folksong offerings to a
general move away from genre based courses, or at least away from the
classic "analytic" genres -- folksong, folktale, proverb, etc.  In that
light, it would be interesting to know how many and what kind of
courses take up folksong/ballads as a significant part of the syllabus:
women's studies, politics of culture, popular culture,
sociology/anthropology of art, medieval studies.Cheers
Jamie

Dear Ballad Group,
  In the Wife of Usher's Well, when the sons return to their mother, we have:
-----------
It fell about the Martinmass,
  When nights are lang and mirk,
The carlin wife's three sons came hame,
  And their hats were of the birk.
------------
I recall from somewhere in my dim past that "birk" (birch) has a symbolic,
perhaps religious or supernatural association. Could it be that because the
sons were wearing birch hats that this means they came to their mother from
heaven? Is this the balladeer's way of saying they are saints? If so, would
this meaning be evident to people living in centuries past in Scotland, or
even in America, where the ballad became popular in the Scots-Irish
tradition? Or, am I reading too much into this?
  Guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Pete Brady

The source you're thinking of is probably L. C. Wimberly, FOlklore in
English and Scottish Ballads.  He discusses the stanza in question on
p. 243 and has more extented comments on related motifs pp. 155-57.Comparative folklore as practice by Wimberly used materials from
disparate traditions regardless of whether a connection could be
demonstrated, a la James Fraser in The Golden Bough.  So his readings
should be taken advisedly, but there is still much of interest and
value in his study.Cheers
Jamie

You need a Scots expert here (which I'm not), but the following notes may be
of interest, although they are inconclusive. A scan through a shelf-full of
Scots folklore books brings up surprisingly few references to birch tree
beliefs, but there are some. Some popular writers, such as Willa Muir
(Living With Ballads, 1965 p.154) make blanket statements such as 'birch was
one of the sacred trees in pre-Christian lore', but as they offer no
evidence their comments are worthless.The most telling point is that Scott, who printed the earliest known version
of the ballad (Child's A text) in 1802, makes no comment about the birk in
Scottish belief (but he does witter on about a Rabbinical tradition of a
ghost with a garland on his head, without showing how this was relevant) and
we can be pretty sure that he would have given Scottish parallels if he had
known them.L.C. Wimberley, in his 'Folklore in the English & Scottish Ballads' (1928
pp.155-157) starts by saying 'the sacred nature of the birch is well known'
but then spoils this by giving lots of references - from India, Japan,
British Columbia, Central Asia, Lapland, etc. again without appearing to
worry whether these have any bearing on Scotland, plus one English
reference, but no Scottish ones. Nevertheless, he does make something of a
case for the birch being special by citing occurrences of birks in other
ballads - 'Braes of Yarrow' (Child 214), 'Sweet William's Ghost' (Child 77),
'Sir Hugh' (Child 155), 'Fair Janet' (Child 64) and several others. Someone
needs to count all the references to trees in Child, to find out if these
birches are statistically significant.The verse which follows the one quoted makes it clear that the tree grew at
the gates of paradise, but this doesn't mean that all birches were so
blessed. Indeed, without independent corroberation it could be argued that
the species of this tree might not be significant, or indeed, simply used
because it rhymed with 'mirk'.Incidentally, I am surprised to find that very few British versions have
been noted - 3 or 4 from Scotland, the same number from England - but dozens
in the United States, Sharp alone collected 33 versions in the Appalachians
in 1916/1918.Steve Roud----- Original Message -----
From: Pete Brady <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 5:40 PM
Subject: Usher's Well: Hats of the birk -- meaning?> Dear Ballad Group,
>   In the Wife of Usher's Well, when the sons return to their mother, we
have:
> -----------
> It fell about the Martinmass,
>   When nights are lang and mirk,
> The carlin wife's three sons came hame,
>   And their hats were of the birk.
> ------------
> I recall from somewhere in my dim past that "birk" (birch) has a symbolic,
> perhaps religious or supernatural association. Could it be that because
the
> sons were wearing birch hats that this means they came to their mother
from
> heaven? Is this the balladeer's way of saying they are saints? If so,
would
> this meaning be evident to people living in centuries past in Scotland, or
> even in America, where the ballad became popular in the Scots-Irish
> tradition? Or, am I reading too much into this?
>   Guidance would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Pete Brady

roud wrote:> You need a Scots expert here (which I'm not), but the following notes may be
> of interest, although they are inconclusive. A scan through a shelf-full of
> Scots folklore books brings up surprisingly few references to birch tree
> beliefs, but there are some. Some popular writers, such as Willa Muir
> (Living With Ballads, 1965 p.154) make blanket statements such as 'birch was
> one of the sacred trees in pre-Christian lore', but as they offer no
> evidence their comments are worthless.
>
> The most telling point is that Scott, who printed the earliest known version
> of the ballad (Child's A text) in 1802, makes no comment about the birk in
> Scottish belief (but he does witter on about a Rabbinical tradition of a
> ghost with a garland on his head, without showing how this was relevant) and
> we can be pretty sure that he would have given Scottish parallels if he had
> known them.
>
> L.C. Wimberley, in his 'Folklore in the English & Scottish Ballads' (1928
> pp.155-157) starts by saying 'the sacred nature of the birch is well known'
> but then spoils this by giving lots of references - from India, Japan,
> British Columbia, Central Asia, Lapland, etc. again without appearing to
> worry whether these have any bearing on Scotland, plus one English
> reference, but no Scottish ones. Nevertheless, he does make something of a
> case for the birch being special by citing occurrences of birks in other
> ballads - 'Braes of Yarrow' (Child 214), 'Sweet William's Ghost' (Child 77),
> 'Sir Hugh' (Child 155), 'Fair Janet' (Child 64) and several others. Someone
> needs to count all the references to trees in Child, to find out if these
> birches are statistically significant.
>
> The verse which follows the one quoted makes it clear that the tree grew at
> the gates of paradise, but this doesn't mean that all birches were so
> blessed. Indeed, without independent corroberation it could be argued that
> the species of this tree might not be significant, or indeed, simply used
> because it rhymed with 'mirk'.
>
> Incidentally, I am surprised to find that very few British versions have
> been noted - 3 or 4 from Scotland, the same number from England - but dozens
> in the United States, Sharp alone collected 33 versions in the Appalachians
> in 1916/1918.
>
> Steve Roud
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pete Brady <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 5:40 PM
> Subject: Usher's Well: Hats of the birk -- meaning?
>Hi There from a lurker from Winnipeg Manitoba.   I may be able to shed some
light on the birch hats. It seems to me in my research on both ballads and
shamanic practices that the hats of birch signify that the sons have come from
the otherworld. Items of clothing such as hats and shoes(of bronze or iron )
were once recognized as otherworldly. If this is important to you I can try and
remember where I read this. Mary Louise Chown

    There are 58 versions of the ballad in Bronson:  _The Traditional Tunes
of the Child Ballads_ (vol. II, pp. 246-266),  and two of then  show the
stanza about the birchen hats.  Both of these mentions follow with a stanza
explaining that the birch grew at the Gates of Paradise.  One version not
included by Bronson  (probably because he used only printed sources) was
recorded a good many years ago by Buell Kazee,  under the title of "Lady
Gay," and as I remember it, the explanatory verse was as follows:That birch grew not in any slough
    Nor yet by any stream,
But at the Gates of Paradise
   That birch grew fresh and green.   Maria Leach, in her _Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and
Legend_, says that the symbolism of birch in the song, as it was explained by
 Robert Graves in _The White Goddess_,  was that the ghosts wearing these
hats did not intend to haunt the earth, but were going to return to Paradise
immediately.  This plan of returning to Paradise is perhaps borne out by one
of the Scottish versions (not one of the two versions in _Child_), which has
one of the three babes saying"The cock doth craw, the day doth daw:
   The channerin' worm doth chide.
Gin we be missed out o' our place
   A sair pain we maun bide."Around most Hallowe'ens, I include the Kazee version in my concerts because
of its ghostly affect, although my guitar accompaniment doesn't hold a candle
to Kazee's stark banjo!Sam
La Jolla, CA

My apologies in advance if you have recieved any bizarre missives with my
name attached.Somehow, some e-messages I was transferring from one computer to another
seem to have found their way to the Ballad List, I think.. They cropped up
on Linn's Ballad-L mail, but not on mine. This all leaves me very
bewildered.We are currently running two computers on line and need to transfer e-mail
from one to the other; especially if they contain attachments or "blue
letter" sites. This old performa can't handle either but the new G4 can.What is most confusing is the fact that the Ballad-L listing in the Address
Book is separated from the address I was forwarding to by a whole page.Please forgive if you got any of this Spamlike transmissions  -  Tom

Can anyone help me fix the date of "Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs"
compiled by Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John?  The 4x7" contains 82 pages
of 19th C. homelitic songs, traditional ballads, and some newly written
material ("The Crash of a Large Airliner" inspired by a tri-motor crash in
the mid-1930s; and another addressed to newly elected FDR in 1932).The booklet/chapbook contains no date or place of publication.Ed

Norm Cohen (Long Steel Rail) dates this as c1934, presumably on the same
internal evidence.
The bibliographic details are confusing: of the 2 copies I have of Old Time
Ballads & Cowboy Songs, the one by 'Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John' is only
24pp., but the other 'compiled by Loye Pack the Cowboy Singer' has 82pp.,
so neither quite matches yours. Are there others out there? Was Loye Pack a
1930s radio singer?
Steve Roud----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:44 PM
Subject: Dating a Songbook> Can anyone help me fix the date of "Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs"
> compiled by Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John?  The 4x7" contains 82 pages
> of 19th C. homelitic songs, traditional ballads, and some newly written
> material ("The Crash of a Large Airliner" inspired by a tri-motor crash in
> the mid-1930s; and another addressed to newly elected FDR in 1932).
>
> The booklet/chapbook contains no date or place of publication.
>
> Ed

Steve and Everyone:My copy of "Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs" is printed on 60 pound
text, with a red-brown cover printed on 60-pound cover stock.  It was set
in a job shop (based on the border) in 6 pt Century Schoolbook, with 6
pt. Century Schoolbook all cap song titles.Does that help?EdOn Fri, 10 Nov 2000, roud wrote:> Norm Cohen (Long Steel Rail) dates this as c1934, presumably on the same
> internal evidence.
> The bibliographic details are confusing: of the 2 copies I have of Old Time
> Ballads & Cowboy Songs, the one by 'Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John' is only
> 24pp., but the other 'compiled by Loye Pack the Cowboy Singer' has 82pp.,
> so neither quite matches yours. Are there others out there? Was Loye Pack a
> 1930s radio singer?
> Steve Roud
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:44 PM
> Subject: Dating a Songbook
>
>
> > Can anyone help me fix the date of "Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs"
> > compiled by Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John?  The 4x7" contains 82 pages
> > of 19th C. homelitic songs, traditional ballads, and some newly written
> > material ("The Crash of a Large Airliner" inspired by a tri-motor crash in
> > the mid-1930s; and another addressed to newly elected FDR in 1932).
> >
> > The booklet/chapbook contains no date or place of publication.
> >
> > Ed
>

Don't worry, Tom. As Dan Rather put it on Tuesday night, "To err is human.
To really louse things up, you need a computer." (He quoted this as a
prologue to announcing that CBS was withdrawing its call of Florida for
Gore.)Peace.
Paul

Dear Norm,Here at the Elphinstone Institute, University of Aberdeen,
we are setting up a taught M.Litt to run from autumn 2001
in Ethnology and Folklore (one year full time). It is
intended to survey the development, theory and practice of
the subject area in an international context, with special
concentration on Scottish materials. It will cover
appropriate research methodologies. In Component 1: Theory,
four of the weeks will be devoted to Ballad and Song. In
Component 2: Practice, there will also be four weeks.
Component 3 is the dissertation, which could focus on
ballad/song fieldwork, if appropriate.
It can be taken full or part-time.Our Continuing Education Dept has a course on Scottish
Culture and Tradition: Ballad and Song (6 credits) -
CN3010, at Level 3 (year 3) of the Scottish Studies M.A (72
credits). There are two other exit points, for a
certificate (24 credits) or a diploma (48 credits).There are also opportunities for suitable candidates to
undertake Ph.D. or M.Phil. research in Folksong or Ballads
at the Institute, as well as other related areas.Hope this is of some interest.Best wishes,
IanOn Wed, 8 Nov 2000 18:12:38 -0800 Norm Cohen
<[unmask]> wrote:> Friends:
> I'm curious to know how many colleges/universities currently offer courses
> in Anglo-American or American folksong or balladry.  Could any of you who do
> so (or are at instititutions that do so) drop me a note?
> Many thanks,
> Norm Cohen----------------------
Dr Ian Russell, Director
The Elphinstone Institute
University of Aberdeen
24 High Street
Aberdeen
AB24 3EB
Tel: +44 (0)1224 272386
Fax: +44 (0)1224 272728
[unmask]
Website:
www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/

The two versions I have, as follows. It is Version 2 which has the  song
'The Farmer's Letter to the President' which is dated 1933.[Version 1]
[Cover and title page the same] <Top>Old Time Ballads / & Cowboy Songs
<Bottom>Compiled by / COWBOY LOYE / and / JUST PLAIN JOHN
Decoration in centre: stylized design of harp, trumpet, ribbons intertwined
Border fancy: repeating pattern, dotted semi-circles, three stemmed
'flower?' within each
24 numbered pages (but index continues on inside of back cover)
Orangey-brown (rust?) card cover
Song titles in caps.
First song on p.3: 'MOTHER'
First song on p.12: 'THE OLD HICKORY CANE',
First song on p.23 'DON'T LAY ME ON MY BACK IN MY LAST SLEEP'.[Version 2]
[Cover and title page the same] <Top>Old Time Ballas / and / Cowboy Songs
<Bottom>Compiled by LOYE PACK / The Cowboy Singer
Decoration in centre: stylized harp
Border: plain rules: thin/thick/thin
80 numbered pages (plus 2 unnumbered and index continues on inside of back
cover)
Pale green card cover.
Song titles in caps.
First song on p.3: 'JUST BEFORE THE BATTLE MOTHER'
First song on p.40: 'THE OLD STEPSTONE'
First song on p.80: 'DON'T TAKE MY LITTLE HOME'----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: Dating a Songbook> Steve and Everyone:
>
> My copy of "Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs" is printed on 60 pound
> text, with a red-brown cover printed on 60-pound cover stock.  It was set
> in a job shop (based on the border) in 6 pt Century Schoolbook, with 6
> pt. Century Schoolbook all cap song titles.
>
> Does that help?
>
> Ed
>
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, roud wrote:
>
> > Norm Cohen (Long Steel Rail) dates this as c1934, presumably on the same
> > internal evidence.
> > The bibliographic details are confusing: of the 2 copies I have of Old
Time
> > Ballads & Cowboy Songs, the one by 'Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John' is
only
> > 24pp., but the other 'compiled by Loye Pack the Cowboy Singer' has
82pp.,
> > so neither quite matches yours. Are there others out there? Was Loye
Pack a
> > 1930s radio singer?
> > Steve Roud
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
> > To: <[unmask]>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:44 PM
> > Subject: Dating a Songbook
> >
> >
> > > Can anyone help me fix the date of "Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs"
> > > compiled by Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John?  The 4x7" contains 82
pages
> > > of 19th C. homelitic songs, traditional ballads, and some newly
written
> > > material ("The Crash of a Large Airliner" inspired by a tri-motor
crash in
> > > the mid-1930s; and another addressed to newly elected FDR in 1932).
> > >
> > > The booklet/chapbook contains no date or place of publication.
> > >
> > > Ed
> >

Steve:There were, apparently, multiple "editions" of Loye's "Old Time Ballads
and Cowboy Songs," at least in the 80-page version.  My copy agrees with
yours except in the color of the cover stock, and the fact that "The Old
Stepstone" is on page 39.  (The index says page 40.)  He must have removed
a song before page 40, and added something after.We can settle for a post-1933 date.What makes this songbook so interesting, in my opinion, is the confluence
of the new (a song about an airplane crash) with the old (homelitic
ballads).  In a sense it is a reflection of the national vote of a few
days ago: a significant portion of the voters cast ballots on moralistic
grounds (anti-Clinton, anti-abortion), an equal portion voted for secular
reasons.EdOn Sat, 11 Nov 2000, roud wrote:> The two versions I have, as follows. It is Version 2 which has the  song
> 'The Farmer's Letter to the President' which is dated 1933.
>
> [Version 1]
> [Cover and title page the same] <Top>Old Time Ballads / & Cowboy Songs
> <Bottom>Compiled by / COWBOY LOYE / and / JUST PLAIN JOHN
> Decoration in centre: stylized design of harp, trumpet, ribbons intertwined
> Border fancy: repeating pattern, dotted semi-circles, three stemmed
> 'flower?' within each
> 24 numbered pages (but index continues on inside of back cover)
> Orangey-brown (rust?) card cover
> Song titles in caps.
> First song on p.3: 'MOTHER'
> First song on p.12: 'THE OLD HICKORY CANE',
> First song on p.23 'DON'T LAY ME ON MY BACK IN MY LAST SLEEP'.
>
> [Version 2]
> [Cover and title page the same] <Top>Old Time Ballas / and / Cowboy Songs
> <Bottom>Compiled by LOYE PACK / The Cowboy Singer
> Decoration in centre: stylized harp
> Border: plain rules: thin/thick/thin
> 80 numbered pages (plus 2 unnumbered and index continues on inside of back
> cover)
> Pale green card cover.
> Song titles in caps.
> First song on p.3: 'JUST BEFORE THE BATTLE MOTHER'
> First song on p.40: 'THE OLD STEPSTONE'
> First song on p.80: 'DON'T TAKE MY LITTLE HOME'
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2000 1:21 AM
> Subject: Re: Dating a Songbook
>
>
> > Steve and Everyone:
> >
> > My copy of "Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs" is printed on 60 pound
> > text, with a red-brown cover printed on 60-pound cover stock.  It was set
> > in a job shop (based on the border) in 6 pt Century Schoolbook, with 6
> > pt. Century Schoolbook all cap song titles.
> >
> > Does that help?
> >
> > Ed
> >
> > On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, roud wrote:
> >
> > > Norm Cohen (Long Steel Rail) dates this as c1934, presumably on the same
> > > internal evidence.
> > > The bibliographic details are confusing: of the 2 copies I have of Old
> Time
> > > Ballads & Cowboy Songs, the one by 'Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John' is
> only
> > > 24pp., but the other 'compiled by Loye Pack the Cowboy Singer' has
> 82pp.,
> > > so neither quite matches yours. Are there others out there? Was Loye
> Pack a
> > > 1930s radio singer?
> > > Steve Roud
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
> > > To: <[unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:44 PM
> > > Subject: Dating a Songbook
> > >
> > >
> > > > Can anyone help me fix the date of "Old Time Ballads and Cowboy Songs"
> > > > compiled by Cowboy Loye and Just Plain John?  The 4x7" contains 82
> pages
> > > > of 19th C. homelitic songs, traditional ballads, and some newly
> written
> > > > material ("The Crash of a Large Airliner" inspired by a tri-motor
> crash in
> > > > the mid-1930s; and another addressed to newly elected FDR in 1932).
> > > >
> > > > The booklet/chapbook contains no date or place of publication.
> > > >
> > > > Ed
> > >
>

Ed Cray wrote:>What makes this songbook so interesting, in my opinion, is the confluence
>of the new (a song about an airplane crash) with the old (homelitic
>ballads).  In a sense it is a reflection of the national vote of a few
>days ago: a significant portion of the voters cast ballots on moralistic
>grounds (anti-Clinton, anti-abortion), an equal portion voted for secular
>reasons.What about those who voted for other moralistic reasons (pro-Gore, pro-life)?
--
john garst    [unmask]

What an error!>What about those who voted for other moralistic reasons (pro-Gore, pro-life)?
>--
>john garst    [unmask]Should have been "(pro-Gore, pro-choice)" and "anti-Bush."--
john garst    [unmask]

Thanks very much to the group for replying to my request about the possible
spiritual or symbolic meaning of "birk" in the Wife of Usher's Well. In
particular, Steve Roud points out something that went right by me, that the
next verse states that the birk grows at the gates of paradise.
  I first was told of the possible significance of "birk" in reference to
"Bonnie Lass O'Fyvie-O", where the last verse is "Green grow the birks upon
the bonnie bank," which seems neutral enough, except that someone told me
that this had a deeper meaning. In Fyvie-O, it seems a little far out to look
for hidden meanings. But in Usher's Well, this is about ghosts, and anything
could be happening.
  Pete BradyIn a message dated 11/9/00 3:52:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, [unmask]
writes:<< The verse which follows the one quoted makes it clear that the tree grew at
 the gates of paradise, but this doesn't mean that all birches were so
 blessed. Indeed, without independent corroberation it could be argued that
 the species of this tree might not be significant, or indeed, simply used
 because it rhymed with 'mirk'. >>

'Down the Cherry Tree' by Pop Maynard (Musical Traditions MTCD 400) - double
CD (93 minutes) including 32 songs recorded in pubs in Sussex, England by
Brian Matthews 1959-1961.Pop Maynard (1872-1962) was one of the finest unaccompanied singers to be
discovered in Post-War England, and these recordings have only recently come
to light. Rod Stradling has made them available as a limited edition, as
unedited field-recordings, for the benefit of enthusiast who will otherwise
miss out on some wonderful singing simply because there are pub-noises in
the background and people joining in the chorus. To keep the price down, Rod
has decided not to include the extensive booklet which usually accompanies
his CD releases, but the record is still excellent value for money.UK customers send £10 to Rod at 1 Castle Street, Stroud, Glos. GL5 2HP.
(Tel.01453 759475)
Overseas, email Rod at [unmask] for details how to payAnd if you are interested in other great CDs and articles, I suggest you
visit his Musical Traditions website at:  [unmask]Steve Roud

Anyone who's got it wanna post the land-chantey
"(Polling, Polling) Way Down In Florida" that a group from DC premiered
at the NOMAD chantey-blast session this weekend?

From the "horse's mouth" so to speak.    An Election Shanty
(to the tune of "Roll the Woodpile Down")1. Way down south where the palm trees grow
    Way down in Florida
   They say elections sure are slow.
    And we'll hold the recount now.
Chorus: Polling, polling, they're polling the whole state round;
    *That ballot of mine they will never find
    And we'll hold the recount now.2. Gore's campaign aides made a final push
   To round up voters to beat the Bush.Chorus3. Some punched for Bush, some punched for Gore;
   Some punched for two or three or more.Chorus4. Pat said "Those votes weren't meant for me,
   I'd be glad if I got three!"Chorus (2nd line changes)  *Those voters of mine crossed the Palm Beach line5. Reverend Jesse says "No fair!
   They won't let my people vote down there."Chorus (2nd line changes)  *That brown gal of mine got kicked out of line6. The lawyers'll fight over who gets sued
   But either way, guess who gets screwed?Chorus: Polling, polling, they're polling the whole state round;
        *That ballot of mine they will never find
        And we'll hold the recount now."2000 by The Civil Serpents (Kathy Westra, Mary LaMarca and George Stephens)

Jumping the gun just a teensy bit, I was kind of thinking
along the lines of (to the tune of "He's in the Jailhouse
Now"):Mr Bush met Mr. Cheney
at a bar and went insane-he
drove a car after having a beer or three
He got stopped by a trooper
who was a party pooper
I don't want to go to jail so I'll just pay a fineChorus
He's in the White House now (2x)
If he had to go to jail
His dad would have paid his bail
He's in the White House now.(c)2000 by Andy Alexis All rights reservedI wrote these verses; new verses welcomed (to be (c) by you
of course).  A verse about Capitol Punishment would be nice;
the original song has a chorus that changes to "He's in the
graveyard now".  The original song even has a verse about a
guy selling his votes for president twice...Andy Alexis, [unmask]
Visit me: http://www.calweb.com/~ndlxs
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"> -----Original Message-----
> >From the "horse's mouth" so to speak.
>
>     An Election Shanty
> (to the tune of "Roll the Woodpile Down")
>
> 1. Way down south where the palm trees grow
>     Way down in Florida
>    They say elections sure are slow.
>     And we'll hold the recount now.
> Chorus: Polling, polling, they're polling the
> whole state round;
>     *That ballot of mine they will never find
>     And we'll hold the recount now.
>
> 2. Gore's campaign aides made a final push
>    To round up voters to beat the Bush.
>

This morning National Public Radio's Weekend Edition I heard an interview
with Kate Russby (the spelling is phonetic).  She records on Compass
Records, and either has a new release or is making a first tour of the
U.S.  (She is Yorkshire born, and a second-generation singer of
traditional songs.)  Can anyone tell me more about her, or recommend any
of her CDs.Ed

At 10:46 AM -0800 11/19/00, Ed Cray wrote:
>This morning National Public Radio's Weekend Edition I heard an interview
>with Kate Russby (the spelling is phonetic).  Can anyone tell me more
>about >her, or recommend any of her CDs.
>
>EdEd,        Am aware of two CDs by Kate RUSBY, "Hourglass" [Compass Records 7
4255 2. (1998)] and "Sleepless" {Compass Records 7 4277 2 (1999)] both were
originally releaseed by Pure Records in the U.K. and I find both to be
very enjoyable. For those who find solace in "best of lists" both were
selested by Folk Roots as among the best new releases in their respective
years.        The 11 cuts on "Hourglass" are 1. Sir Eglamore; 2. As I Roved Out;
3. Jolly Ploughboys; 4. Annan Waters; 5. Stananivy / Jack & Jill; 6. A Rose
In April; 7. Radio Sweetheart; 8. I am Stretched On Your Grave; 9. Old Man
Time; 10. Drowned Lovers; 11. Bold Riley.        The 13 cuts on " Sleepless" 1. The Cobblers Daughter; 2. I Wonder
What Is Keeping My True Love Tonight ; 3. The Fairest Of All Yarrow; 4. The
Unquiet Grave; 5. Sho Heen; 6. Sweet Bride; 7. All God's Angels; 8. The
Wild Goose; 9. The Duke And The Tinker; 10. Our Town [a fine song by Iris
Dement]; 11. The Sleepless Sailor; 12. Cowsong; 13. Botany Bay        Compass Records has a web page at www.compassrecords.comCliff Ocheltree
New Orleans LA

Ed Cray wrote:
>
> This morning National Public Radio's Weekend Edition I heard an interview
> with Kate RussbyKate Rusby also plays with the Poozies & has done some guest spots on
other albums. Here are all the listings that pop up at Sidestreet (a
small-label wholesaler).--SusanPoozies, The INFINITE BLUE long-awaited first American release from this
notable Scottish quartet: Karen Tweed, Kate Rusby, and Mary MacMaster
and Patsy Seddon of Sileas
                        CD...COMPASS-CD4261RAISE YOUR HEAD: A RETROSPECTIVE
Compilation culled from their first three albums -- Karen Tweed, Kate
Rusby, and Sileas gals Mary MacMaster and Patsy Seddon
                        CD...COMPASS-CD4290Rusby, Kate
HOURGLASS
US release of 1997 album. With John McCusker, Alan Reid, Tony McManus,
Alison Kinnaird, others.
                        CD...COMPASS-CD4255
SLEEPLESS
With Darrell Scott, John McCusker and Tim O'Brien
                        CD...COMPASS-CD4277Todd, Gibb
CONNECTED
Original, traditional and contemporary ballads with an all-star lineup
including Kate Rusby, Tony McManus, John McCusker, Finbar Furey,
Alasdair Fraser, Joanie Madden, others
                        CD...LDL-CD1292McCusker, John
YELLA HOOSE
Second solo album for this Battlefield Band fiddler. Including guests
Tim O'Brien, Daryll Scott, Kate Rusby, Michael McGoldrick, Ian Carr,
Simon Thoumire, Andy Cutting, Gino Lupari, Malcolm Stitt, and Kevin
MacKenzie. Includes mainly original compositions and is produced by John
McCusker
                        CD...TEMP-CD2083

Ed Cray wrote:> This morning National Public Radio's Weekend Edition I heard an interview
> with Kate Russby...Can anyone tell me more about her...I can't tell you an awful lot, except that she's a young English singer
with a great voice and a good ear for interpreting songs. A breath of
fresh air in many respects, in my opinion. I shouldn't think you'd be
disappointed if you sought her other recordings.--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff, Scotland
mailto:[unmask]

Kate Rusby also made an album with Kathryn Roberts--KATE RUSBY AND KATHRYN
ROBERTS is the title.
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Tichy <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: A Singer New to Me> Ed Cray wrote:
> >
> > This morning National Public Radio's Weekend Edition I heard an
interview
> > with Kate Russby
>
> Kate Rusby also plays with the Poozies & has done some guest spots on
> other albums. Here are all the listings that pop up at Sidestreet (a
> small-label wholesaler).
>
> --Susan
>
> Poozies, The INFINITE BLUE long-awaited first American release from this
> notable Scottish quartet: Karen Tweed, Kate Rusby, and Mary MacMaster
> and Patsy Seddon of Sileas
>                         CD...COMPASS-CD4261
>
> RAISE YOUR HEAD: A RETROSPECTIVE
> Compilation culled from their first three albums -- Karen Tweed, Kate
> Rusby, and Sileas gals Mary MacMaster and Patsy Seddon
>                         CD...COMPASS-CD4290
>
> Rusby, Kate
> HOURGLASS
> US release of 1997 album. With John McCusker, Alan Reid, Tony McManus,
> Alison Kinnaird, others.
>                         CD...COMPASS-CD4255
> SLEEPLESS
> With Darrell Scott, John McCusker and Tim O'Brien
>                         CD...COMPASS-CD4277
>
> Todd, Gibb
> CONNECTED
> Original, traditional and contemporary ballads with an all-star lineup
> including Kate Rusby, Tony McManus, John McCusker, Finbar Furey,
> Alasdair Fraser, Joanie Madden, others
>                         CD...LDL-CD1292
>
> McCusker, John
> YELLA HOOSE
> Second solo album for this Battlefield Band fiddler. Including guests
> Tim O'Brien, Daryll Scott, Kate Rusby, Michael McGoldrick, Ian Carr,
> Simon Thoumire, Andy Cutting, Gino Lupari, Malcolm Stitt, and Kevin
> MacKenzie. Includes mainly original compositions and is produced by John
> McCusker
>                         CD...TEMP-CD2083
>

I believe Kate Rusby's recordings are available from Elderly Instruments
(www.elderly.com) .Peace.
Paul

I'm quitting this server. Could you please change my URL to:[unmask]thanx much!

They're also available (as is everything else in print) from CAMSCO Music
)(www.camsco.com). And often at a lower price.On Mon, 20 Nov 2000, Paul Stamler wrote:> I believe Kate Rusby's recordings are available from Elderly Instruments
> (www.elderly.com) .
>
>
> Peace.
> Paul
>

Ed,        Am aware of two CDs by Kate RUSBY, "Hourglass" [Compass Records 7
4255 2. (1998)] and "Sleepless" {Compass Records 7 4277 2 (1999)] both were
originally releaseed by Pure Records in the U.K. and I find both to be
very enjoyable. For those who find solace in "best of lists" both were
selested by Folk Roots as among the best new releases in their respective
years.        The 11 cuts on "Hourglass" are 1. Sir Eglamore; 2. As I Roved Out;
3. Jolly Ploughboys; 4. Annan Waters; 5. Stananivy / Jack & Jill; 6. A Rose
In April; 7. Radio Sweetheart; 8. I am Stretched On Your Grave; 9. Old Man
Time; 10. Drowned Lovers; 11. Bold Riley.        The 13 cuts on " Sleepless" 1. The Cobblers Daughter; 2. I Wonder
What Is Keeping My True Love Tonight ; 3. The Fairest Of All Yarrow; 4. The
Unquiet Grave; 5. Sho Heen; 6. Sweet Bride; 7. All God's Angels; 8. The
Wild Goose; 9. The Duke And The Tinker; 10. Our Town [a fine song by Iris
Dement]; 11. The Sleepless Sailor; 12. Cowsong; 13. Botany Bay        Compass Records has a web page at www.compassrecords.comCliff Ocheltree
New Orleans LA

The suspect nature of Niles' scholarship has been touched on in this list
before, but can anyone point me in the direction of any studies which
examine this, or other articles/books about Niles which might help me
understand him and his work?
Thanks
Steve Roud

On 11/22/00, roud wrote:>The suspect nature of Niles' scholarship has been touched on in this list
>before, but can anyone point me in the direction of any studies which
>examine this, or other articles/books about Niles which might help me
>understand him and his work?I don't think there have been articles on the subject (unless someone
has researched "Black is the Color of My True Love's Hair") -- but
it's easy enough to verify. Look at his "Ballad Book." Look up
"Judas." Or his moralized version of "The Fair Flower of Northumberland."
And what are the odds that he found the only surviving oral version of
"Robin Hood and the Monk"?--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Some of his work, at least, was legitimate.  He published a booklet of songs
and carols from the Appalachians.  None of the versions were to be found
elsewhere, but my father made a trip to West Virginia in 1939 when he was 16,
and learned two Christmas carols from the family he was staying with there.
The texts and music were almost exactly the same as two of the carols
collected by J.J.Niles.
  The carols were 'Jesus, Jesus Rest Your Head', and a version of the
'Coventry Carol' with a very unusual melody.

Yes, but could your father's informants have learned the carols from the
booklet?        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Trad Man
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2000 9:41 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: John Jacob NilesSome of his work, at least, was legitimate.  He published a booklet of songs
and carols from the Appalachians.  None of the versions were to be found
elsewhere, but my father made a trip to West Virginia in 1939 when he was
16,
and learned two Christmas carols from the family he was staying with there.
The texts and music were almost exactly the same as two of the carols
collected by J.J.Niles.
  The carols were 'Jesus, Jesus Rest Your Head', and a version of the
'Coventry Carol' with a very unusual melody.

On 11/23/00, Trad Man wrote:>Some of his work, at least, was legitimate.  He published a booklet of songs
>and carols from the Appalachians.  None of the versions were to be found
>elsewhere, but my father made a trip to West Virginia in 1939 when he was 16,
>and learned two Christmas carols from the family he was staying with there.
>The texts and music were almost exactly the same as two of the carols
>collected by J.J.Niles.
>  The carols were 'Jesus, Jesus Rest Your Head', and a version of the
>'Coventry Carol' with a very unusual melody.I agree with Marge Steiner: These are rather dubious reports. I'm
willing to allow that the songs were collected from tradition, but
Niles could have introduced them himself. Source, not collector.A report of the Coventry Carol strikes me as most dubious. There
is no reason to think this song was ever traditional. We have our
copies from old manuscripts -- now burnt! If there is a version
in oral tradition, it was probably introduced from a written
source. Now I'm not saying that makes the song untraditional,
or that there is something wrong with songs introduced into the
tradition from written sources. But this is just the sort of
thing I'd expect of Niles.Don't mistake me: I *do* think Niles collected songs from tradition,
and had some songs within his own family tradition. But I also think
that one can never trust him in the absence of strong supporting
evidence. These collections of your father constitute supporting
evidence in the cases of those two songs -- if they weren't
traditional at the Niles did whatever he did, they are now.
But that is no help in assessing any of his other dubious
pieces.The irony is, if Niles had done all this rewriting and then sung
it for another collector, we'd call it traditional. But he didn't;
he rewrote and then submitted the results as traditional. It's why
I don't trust the Lomaxes, and why I don't trust Niles. They
convict themselves by their own works.
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

In a message dated 11/22/00 4:34:02 AM, [unmask] writes:>The suspect nature of Niles' scholarship has been touched on in this list
>before, but can anyone point me in the direction of any studies which
>examine this, or other articles/books about Niles which might help me
>understand him and his work?
>
>Thanks
>
>Steve Roud
**************************************************
I think D. K. Wilgus correctly identifies some problems with Niles in his
_Anglo-Americn Folksong Scholarship  Since 1898_  (New Brunswick, NJ, Rutgers
University Press, 1959, p. 213) when he says "The
coillector-performer-composer John Jacob Niles.....  has been unable to
separate his three roles. "    Niles, who was born in Kentucky in  1892,
thought of himself as a member of the Anglo-American folk culture of the
southern mountains, and could never see how his "creative" approach was
different from that of his farmer-carpenter father, a well-known singer of
folk songs in his community who, like most true folk singers, put his own
personal spin on his material.   It was typical of young John's approach
that he learned to play on a traditional three-string Appalachian dulcimer,
but soon felt held back by its limitations, and he invented and built several
8-stringed instruments -- beautiful example of careful woodcrafting,  but
hardly traditional.  His creativeness extended to the actual creation of new
songs -- many of them musically excellent --  some of which he said were
"collected"  from genuine folk singers.  (His second book,_Songs My Mother
Never Taught Me_, includes the love song "Venezuela,"  which had appeared in
his earlier book, _Singing Soldiers_, and his publisher convinced him that
the book would sell better if he called it a "folksong"  by some nameless
creator.   Fritz Kreisler, the classical violinist, had the same experience,
and some of his compositions, such as "The Old  Refrain"  and [I think]
"Schon Rosmarin"  were published as his arrangements of old folk tunes.)
    He began doing public performances in 1927, and, along with Carl Sandburg
and Richard Dyer-Bennett, quickly became an exemplar of folk music for the
concert audience.  In spite of his shortcomings as a scholar, he was a great
performer, and I'll always remember how I and the audience as a whole were
transfixed by his dramatic presentation of "The Maid Saved From the Gallows."
  One of his most controversial books was  _The Ballad Book of John Jacob
Niles_ (Boston, Houghton-Mifflin, 1961.)  Its songs are polished in true
Nilesian fashion, and many are obviously "collected"  from books, although he
does give the names of most of his supposed informants.  D. K. Wilgus once
said, in a personal conversation,  "He waited to publish this until the
people he named were all safely dead."
  You might like to read a short piece by Niles himself, called "My
Precarious Life In the Public Domain" (_The Atlantic_, December, 1948.)Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

In a message dated 11/23/00 12:37:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[unmask] writes:<<
 >Some of his work, at least, was legitimate.  He published a booklet of songs
 >and carols from the Appalachians.  None of the versions were to be found
 >elsewhere, but my father made a trip to West Virginia in 1939 when he was
16,
 >and learned two Christmas carols from the family he was staying with there.
 >The texts and music were almost exactly the same as two of the carols
 >collected by J.J.Niles.
 >  The carols were 'Jesus, Jesus Rest Your Head', and a version of the
 >'Coventry Carol' with a very unusual melody. I agree with Marge Steiner: These are rather dubious reports. I'm
 willing to allow that the songs were collected from tradition, but
 Niles could have introduced them himself. Source, not collector. A report of the Coventry Carol strikes me as most dubious. There
 is no reason to think this song was ever traditional. We have our
 copies from old manuscripts -- now burnt! If there is a version
 in oral tradition, it was probably introduced from a written
 source. Now I'm not saying that makes the song untraditional,
 or that there is something wrong with songs introduced into the
 tradition from written sources. But this is just the sort of
 thing I'd expect of Niles. Don't mistake me: I *do* think Niles collected songs from tradition,
 and had some songs within his own family tradition. But I also think
 that one can never trust him in the absence of strong supporting
 evidence. These collections of your father constitute supporting
 evidence in the cases of those two songs -- if they weren't
 traditional at the Niles did whatever he did, they are now.
 But that is no help in assessing any of his other dubious
 pieces.
  >>I have been able to do a little further research on the Christmas Carols
which Niles published.  Unfortunately at the time I found the booklet - close
to 30 years ago, I did not copy the title page, and so I can't say for
certain when it was published, although I suspect the information could be
found at the Library of Congress.  Niles claims to have collected the songs
from an un-named old lady in Tennessee in 1934.  The fact that my father
learned them virtually indentically in West Virginia in 1939 may support the
theory that the family learned them via performance by Niles, although the
melodies are odd enough that I am somewhat doubtful that they could be
learned so closely without multiple listenings.  As to the idea that they
were learned from the booklet, I think this extremely unlikely as the booklet
was not widely distributed and written for a scholarly audience (Opposite
each carol is a page which is blank except for a small sentence at the top
"Reserved the the student's notes and comments).  The family my father spent
that Christmas with was a coal mining family living near the poverty level,
and unlikely to be buying esoteric music books.
   I have heard another singer sing a very similar version of Jesus, Jesus
rest your head from a different source, so I am convinced that it is in
tradition.  As for the Coventry Carol, the fact that there seems to be only
one American traditional source does cast suspicion on it.  It seems
plausable that these songs may originate from Niles, but have been picked up
by traditional singers and therefore passed into oral tradition like "I
Wonder As I Wander".  Regardless, I have sung them for many years as songs
which I learned as a child from my father, and so, at least in my family,
they are certainly traditional.

There is a film review of "John Jacob Niles" by Bill McNeil in JAF, 1979, p.
521, but it doesn't touch on his scholarship.  I recall some discussion by
D. K. Wilgus, probably in a record review, but can't put my hands on it yet.Niles did collect some material, at least early in his career; his book,
"Singing Soldiers" is of considerable interest for that particular genre.
It was unfortunate that at the height of his popularity in the folk revival
(ca late 1950s) it was more fashionable to have collected an unusual variant
than to have rearranged it.  I can't help but compare him to Fritz Kreisler,
who initially palmed off many of his finest compositions as reworkings of
old pieces he found in manuscripts in a European monastary library.
Eventually he 'fessed up, and outraged some critics who had been taken in.
If Niles had up front presented "Judas" etc. as his own arrangements he
would have had quite a different response.In his review, Bill castigates Niles' style in the strongest terms.  I
suppose I'm among the few (perhaps only?) folksong aficionados who actually
enjoys his singing -- tho I would certainly not make any claims for its
traditionality.  (WIth that I hastily hide behind a protective barrier
against the barrage of criticism that I now expect.)Norm Cohen

Dear Norm,Could you elaborate on "Singing Soldiers" a little more?Thanks,Andy