[I don't think my first post of this made it through -- if it did,
apologies for the repeat. - Amy]I have read notes (somewhere...) about "Shooting of his Dear" that
suggest
his mistaking his love for a swan and shooting may actually be because
she
_was_ a swan at the time of the shooting, and may have on occasion taken
an
alternate form as a swan.  This sort of human/animal metamorphosis mightsuggest an older, pre-modern worldview and belief system.Amy DavisJames Moreira wrote:> [unmask],.Internet writes:
> >I would argue the reverse. The song is too widespread. It's clearly
> >a *popular* ballad, even if it isn't a good one. :-)
>
> Popular in the sense of "widely known or liked" isn't the issue.  For
> Child, the popular ballad implied pre-literature: "Its historical and
> natural place is anterior to the appearance of the poetry of art . . .> ."   So essentially, ballads from Child's perspective have to point
> either stylistically or thematically to pre-modern society and
culture,
> and from this standpoint it's generally agreed that he erred on the
> side of inclusion.  There are a few ways that he could make educated
> guesses about appropriate ballads: treatment of actual events;
> depiction of feudal society; indication of pre-modern worldview or
> belief systems; and the stylistic traits that appear to typify the
> older varieties of European balladry, i.e. patterns of repetition,
> commonplaces, and various kinds of parallelism.  The latter has become> especially important in recent decades because of theories about the
> link between formulaic style and oral (non-literate) tradition.  (See,> Buchan, The Ballad and The Folk and Andersen, Commonplace and
> Creativity for two different views on this style and what it
suggests.)
>  Some in the International Ballad Commission have advocated reserving
> the term ballad -- or specifically classical ballad -- solely for
songs
> in this style.  Personally I find that too limiting because there are
> some historical, religious and alleged minstrel ballads which are not
> good examples of this style.
>
> But as for "Shooting of his Dear," I still don't see how a tale,
> narrated in a completely prosaic style, about a hunting accident
> involving a gun, leading to a jury trial, in which the accused is
freed
> by the testimony of a ghost (one of the few supernatural beings that
> remains rife in modern tradition) suggests anything but a fairly
recent
> beginning.--
Amy Davis
Folklife Assistant
Southern Folklife Collection
UNC-Chapel Hill
(919) 962-1345

In a message dated 24/10/2000  11:20:28, you write:<< Nigel Gatherer, Crieff >>For anyone not familiar: compiler of Songs and Ballads of Dundee (Edinburgh,
1986) and of the Album of the same name on Peter Shepheard's Springthyme
label.You're welcome here, Nigel.Did you get an answer to Little Jock Elliott II?John Moulden

If The Digital Tradition has made Laws more useful, I';m delighted. My
point was that, even if you have Laws' examples available, it's not easy
to determine which code a "new" ballad should be assigned. A GOOD system
(and DigiTrad's is NOT good) would specify just what aspects of a ballad
woul;d define it's position or code number.This gets to be a real problem with degenerate versions. I heard Charlie
West, for instance, sing a version (I guess) of Babylon where the third
maiden simply killed the robber, and no family membership was stated nor
implied. Should this be considered as a version of the same ballad?Same goes for LOrd Randal and Billy Boy. Similar form and structure, very
different story.On Mon, 23 Oct 2000, Bruce Olson wrote:> dick greenhaus wrote:
> >
> > In my experience, Laws is simply unworkable. . He never specified the
> > basis for selection or number assignment; he doesn't define what
> > distinguishes onee from another (there are at least 3 called "Waterloo"
> > and another three called "Plains of Waterloo"); and the textx he uses for
> > examples are neither provided nor readily accessible.
> >
> >         Susan Friedman and I made a valiant effort to dig out examples,
> > and the Digital Tradition includes them with their Laws designations, but
> > I'm not sure that these designations have been of much use to anyone.
> >
> > Heresy provided by dick greenhaus
> >
>
> Dick, as Bob Waltz points out in another posting, Laws, despite some
> deficiencies, is very useful. Where would we be without his two volumes?
> As for usefulness on the Mudcat Forum, I've often used Laws designation.
> For example, if someone requests a song and I recognized it as one in
> Laws indexes, I don't try to guess what titles or keywords I should look
> for it under in the Digital Tradition. I might never guess a correct
> one. I thumb through the appropriate subject heading (or maybe two of
> them) in Laws' indexes, and then post on the Mudcat Forum a 'search for
> (Laws) 'Xn' in DT' as a quick way for someone to find all versions in
> the DT.
>
> It is also becoming pretty much standard to give Laws designation in the
> UK as well as in the US. As I pointed out in an earlier posting today,
> I've made it easy to search for Laws Xn designation in the broadside
> ballad index on my website; Steve Roud lists it in his broadside and
> folk song indexes, and its given in the notes in 'The Greig-Duncan Folk
> Song Collection'.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
> ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
> or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>
>

[unmask],.Internet writes:
>I have read notes (somewhere...) about "Shooting of his Dear" that
>suggest
>his mistaking his love for a swan and shooting may actually be because
>she
>was a swan at the time of the shooting, and may have on occasion taken
>an
>alternate form as a swan.  This sort of human/animal metamorphosis might
>suggest an older, pre-modern worldview and belief system.If metamorphosis could be demonstrated then an argument could be made
for a connection with "Leesome Brand" (Child 15), no problem.  But the
texts of "The Shooting of His Dear" that I've seen are usually explicit
that the hunter saw a white apron and mistook that for a swan.> [unmask],.Internet writes:
>The ghost demonstrates that the song is old. Look at the history
>of the supernatural ballads. They are constantly being rationalized.
>Most of them are very old. The current forms don't have supernatural
>elements. Neither do the more recent ballads.The Ghostly Fishermen, The Dreadful Ghost, She Moved through the Fair,
Lost Jimmy Whalen, Beautiful Susan, Edmund in the Lowlands, American
Woods, The Nightingale, Nancy of Yarmouth . . .  all modern ballads,
all feature ghosts/revenants in at least some versions.[unmask],.Internet writes:
>While Child may have considered his ballads as being pre-literature,
>there
>is a great deal of evidence that this simply wan't true. I hate the
>thought of categorizing something based on our ignorance of its source.Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to uphold ESPB as a canon of
traditional balladry, and I agree with Bob that catalogs like the
Ballad Index are eminently more useful as research tools.  But if
people are going to add 306, 307, 308 *to Child*, which is where this
discussion began, then it should be done in the spirit of what Child
was trying to accomplish, not from the perspective of a 20th century
approach to folksong research.  We don't know precisely his criteria
but we know his starting point, and it was quite different from the
more folk-oriented models of the past 75 years or so.  There are some
valid candidates for inclusion -- "The Bitter Withy," "Long A-Growing"
and perhaps others.  But songs like "The Shooting of His Dear" and "The
Bold Fisherman" only fit if certain scholarly interpretations are
accepted up front.  The texts themselves don't get us there.I disagree that certain kinds of ballads can't be studied as
"pre-literature" or at least in relation to non-literacy as cultural
condition.  Ballads are the best documented source for oral culture
research available in the English language, and the analytical tools
that have been made available over the past thirty years, with respect
to the stylistic analysis of texts and the anthropology and social
history of literacy, makes this a very promising avenue of ballad
research.  Granted it has more implications for European research than
for this side of the Atlantic, but it is definitely a viable line of
inquiry.Cheers
Jamie

Nigel:Do tell us something about your "Songs from Dundee."  Is it still
available?EdOn Tue, 24 Oct 2000, Nigel Gatherer wrote:> A quick hello from new listmember Nigel Gatherer from not-so-sunny
> Perthshire in Scotland. I'm an amateur enthusiast with a particular
> interest in Scottish broadsides, and a general interest in old songs. I'll
> enjoy lurking for a while to see what sort of discussions develop.
>
> --
> Nigel Gatherer, Crieff
> mailto:[unmask]
>

In a message dated 10/24/00 8:57:25 AM, [unmask] writes:>The Ghostly Fishermen, The Dreadful Ghost, She Moved through the Fair,
>Lost Jimmy Whalen, Beautiful Susan, Edmund in the Lowlands, American
>Woods, The Nightingale, Nancy of Yarmouth . . .  all modern ballads,
>all feature ghosts/revenants in at least some versions.
*************************
I'm showing my ignorance here, but what version of "She Moved Thru the Fair"
definitely involves a ghostly revenant?  The one I sing is from Padraic
Colum's _A Treasury of Irish Folklore_ (NY, Crown Pub., 1954) and it's always
appeared to me to be a love song to a girl who is very much alive, with its
repetitive line "It will not be long, love, till our wedding day."  I have
heard a version which changes Colum's lines "Last night she came to me, / She
came softly in"  to "Last night she came to me, / My dead love came in." This
was recorded by the group Jethro Tull in 1977, and appears in "The Green Book
of Pagan Songs"  which is on the web at http://www.locksley.com/greenbook ,
and I've always assumed the "dead'" phrase was a recent one.  Does anyone
know what the Gaelic words meant before Colum's translation?"Lost Jimmy Whalen" (LAWS C-8)  is American in origin, and Child, though an
American himself,  was working entirely with the British isles corpus.
Moreover, it is cast in the first person  {"Alone as I wandered down by the
still river,"  etc.) , which  in itself would probably have caused Child to
reject it...   Barry says the song was known in 1886;  it seems to me that
the composer must have been familiar with older songs such as "The Unquiet
Grave."  I wonder why Child didn't include THAT one?  Maybe it's too weak as
a narrative....  I sing a lot of appropriate seasonal songs, and "Lost Jimmy
Whalen" is one of my favorites around Hallowe'en."The Nightingale" you mention must be the one about the wreck of the ship
_The Nightingale.", not the widely known one in which the text emulates
Bocaccio in using the singing of the nightingale as a metaphor for an  event
of sexual congress.

[unmask],.Internet writes:
>but what version of "She Moved Thru the Fair"
>definitely involves a ghostly revenant?I had the "dead love" variant in mind, which is somewhat reminiscent of
classical ballad revenants in that the dead appears to return in bodily
form.  My understanding is that Margaret Barry introduced the motif to
make sense of the rather ambigous ending of Colum's poem.  Kind of an
odd example of someone looking to the supernatural to "rationalize" a
text.  It's a revival adaptation, I suppose, but either way it shows
the currency in modern tradition of the idea of the dead coming back.As for antecedants to "She Moved through the Fair," the only thing I
know of is a lyric song in Henry's _Songs of the People_ (H141; pp.
395-396), which contains the "night visit" stanza.  Whether this or
something like it is the source used by Colum, I don't know.  John
Moulden might be able to answer that.>"The Nightingale" you mention must be the one about the wreck of the
>shipYes, Laws M 37.  As you say not so well known as the bawdy song, but
Laws cites Scottish, English, Canadian and American versions.  This and
two or three of the other ballads I listed each have a dead sailor's or
dead emigrant's ghost returning home to a lover or family member.Cheers
Jamie

Now here's an obscure question for you all. In April 1896, in a British
magazine, Katharine Tynan Hinkson wrote - "I remember years ago reading in
the Providence Sunday Journal - a New England paper, the then editor of
which, Mr. Alfred Williams, is an authority on folk-song and folk-lore - a
series of articles on children's singing games..."
Has anyone ever spotted these articles? Anyone have access to the paper? Any
clues at all? Might there be songs as well as games in the paper? etc.
Steve Roud

----- Original Message -----
From: <[unmask]>*************************
<<I'm showing my ignorance here, but what version of "She Moved Thru the
Fair"
definitely involves a ghostly revenant?  The one I sing is from Padraic
Colum's _A Treasury of Irish Folklore_ (NY, Crown Pub., 1954) and it's
always
appeared to me to be a love song to a girl who is very much alive, with its
repetitive line "It will not be long, love, till our wedding day."  I have
heard a version which changes Colum's lines "Last night she came to me, /
She
came softly in"  to "Last night she came to me, / My dead love came in."
This
was recorded by the group Jethro Tull in 1977, and appears in "The Green
Book
of Pagan Songs"  which is on the web at http://www.locksley.com/greenbook ,
and I've always assumed the "dead'" phrase was a recent one.  Does anyone
know what the Gaelic words meant before Colum's translation?>>Those words ("...my dead love came in") appear in Margaret Barry's version
of the song, recorded in 1951, that appears on the "World Library of Folk
and Primitive Music" album devoted to music of Ireland. Margaret Barry came
from a long line of tinkers, but this song was one she learned from a John
McCormack recording of the Colum-Hughes composition. I haven't heard the
McCormack 78, so I haven't a clue whether he incorporated the revenant
lines, or they were added by Barry herself. (There is an album of McCormack
discs in the other room, lent by a neighbor, but that song isn't among them,
alas.)Peace.
Paul

Ed Cray wrote:> Do tell us something about your "Songs from Dundee."  Is it still
> available?I went to Dundee Art School in the late 1970s, and while there became
aware of, and subsequently passionate about, Scottish traditional music. I
started noticing that there were a few Dundee songs being sung. After I
left college, I researched more and compiled a considerable list of songs
which were either about the town of Dundee, or were regarded by Dundonians
as Dundee songs. I was encouraged to try to publish a collection when I
realised there hadn't been anything like it before.However, my primary source was libraries; collections of printed
broadsides, manuscripts, and old books. My rather dusty selection was
enlivened when I was introduced to folksong collector Peter Shepheard who,
along with Maurice Fleming, had been collecting from Dundee and district
singers since the 60s. Peter's recordings of songs from singers such as
Annie Watkins, Eck Harley and Charlie Lamb complemented the songs I'd
rooted out from history. Peter then brought out the record, a perfect
companion to the book.I'm happy to say that the book has just been republished (but I swear I
didn't join this list to publicise it!). I had a launch in Dundee a couple
of weeks ago, and Maureen Jelks, a fine singer, came and sang a few songs
from the book, including "Bonnie Susie Cleland" - a version of Lady Maisry
(Child 65) collected by William Motherwell.Songs and Ballads of Dundee, Nigel Gatherer.
Pub. John Donald, Edinburgh. ISBN 0-85976-538-5--
Nigel Gatherer, Crieff
mailto:[unmask]

In a message dated 24/10/2000  17:58:53, you write:<< The one I sing is from Padraic
 Colum's _A Treasury of Irish Folklore_ (NY, Crown Pub., 1954) and it's always
 appeared to me to be a love song to a girl who is very much alive, with its
 repetitive line "It will not be long, love, till our wedding day."  I have
 heard a version which changes Colum's lines "Last night she came to me, / She
 came softly in"  to "Last night she came to me, / My dead love came in." This
 was recorded by the group Jethro Tull in 1977, and appears in "The Green Book
 of Pagan Songs"  which is on the web at http://www.locksley.com/greenbook ,
 and I've always assumed the "dead'" phrase was a recent one.  Does anyone
 know what the Gaelic words meant before Colum's translation? >>I think it has always been assumed that Colum's lines - "So softly she came
that her feet made no din" implies otherworldliness. The origin of the
addition of "dead" is obscure, though it and an additional verse:The people were saying no two were e'er wed
But one has a secret that never is shared
Then she went on her way with her goods and her gear
And that was the last that I saw of my dear.(also of obscure origin) were associated in song books printed in Ireland in
the late fifties.Colum's original was not Gaelic but almost certainly the Enlish language song
known as "Out of the window," "Our wedding day" or "She moved through the
fair" versions of 2 of which are in Sam Henry's Songs of the People
(Huntington, Herrmann pages 395 and 454) - the inter-relationships have yet
to be clearly traced.John Moulden

>...As you say not so well known as the bawdy song....
>JamieIs this "bawdy song" the one with "see the waters a-gliding and hear
the nightingale sing"?  If so, are there really bawdy versions of
this?  The ones I've seen/heard are suggestive in very polite terms
only.
--
john garst    [unmask]

>Child himself never wrote down the criteria he used in selecting the "305",
>but George Lyman Kittredge, who knew him well,  postulated what he though
>were probably some of his criteria. He was interested in ballads -- songs
>with a narrative (what D. K. Wilgus has described as the "And then,,,, and
>then...." construction) that had been  collected from the mouths of "the
>people."  (Child worked only from manuscripts and published sources;  he
>wasn't a collector himself)....Is there any evidence that Child had any interest in the music or singing,
or that he ever heard a traditional singer?--
john garst    [unmask]

John and Prurient People:I -- a man who claims to know more frankly dirty songs than anyone --
cannot recall any version of the "The Nightengale" in which the sex is
made explicit.EdOn Fri, 27 Oct 2000, John Garst wrote:> >...As you say not so well known as the bawdy song....
> >Jamie
>
> Is this "bawdy song" the one with "see the waters a-gliding and hear
> the nightingale sing"?  If so, are there really bawdy versions of
> this?  The ones I've seen/heard are suggestive in very polite terms
> only.
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

John:F.J. Child, a son of Boston and Harvard, was at least nominally aware of
what were known as "traditional ballads."  While in school, he was reputed
to be the author of a stage play, "The Story of the Lone Fishball [?]," a
copy of which does not seem to have survived.  During the Civil War, ahem,
the War Between the States, he edited an anthology of pro-Union and
patriotic poetry which included some songs.Furthermore, Child was the son of a Boston sailmaker.  I cannot imagine
that he would have remained entirely ignorant of sea songs if he spent any
time at all in his father's sail loft.Ed

On 10/27/00, Ed Cray wrote:>John:
>
>F.J. Child, a son of Boston and Harvard, was at least nominally aware of
>what were known as "traditional ballads."  While in school, he was reputed
>to be the author of a stage play, "The Story of the Lone Fishball [?]," a
>copy of which does not seem to have survived.  During the Civil War, ahem,
>the War Between the States, he edited an anthology of pro-Union and
>patriotic poetry which included some songs.Even wrote some songs in that context. "Overtures from Richmond"
is a comic anti-Confederate song to the tune of Liliburlero.>Furthermore, Child was the son of a Boston sailmaker.  I cannot imagine
>that he would have remained entirely ignorant of sea songs if he spent any
>time at all in his father's sail loft.Though he never seemed to admit to any such knowledge. Too good for
it, or something. :-(--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Depends on your definition of "bawdy", Ed.On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> John and Prurient People:
>
> I -- a man who claims to know more frankly dirty songs than anyone --
> cannot recall any version of the "The Nightengale" in which the sex is
> made explicit.
>
> Ed
>
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, John Garst wrote:
>
> > >...As you say not so well known as the bawdy song....
> > >Jamie
> >
> > Is this "bawdy song" the one with "see the waters a-gliding and hear
> > the nightingale sing"?  If so, are there really bawdy versions of
> > this?  The ones I've seen/heard are suggestive in very polite terms
> > only.
> > --
> > john garst    [unmask]
> >
>

That was the mock-opera Il Pescabello. Child also wrote at least one
Civil-War song. While he may have heard one or more ballads informally, I
believe that his book(s) had only published sources.On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> John:
>
> F.J. Child, a son of Boston and Harvard, was at least nominally aware of
> what were known as "traditional ballads."  While in school, he was reputed
> to be the author of a stage play, "The Story of the Lone Fishball [?]," a
> copy of which does not seem to have survived.  During the Civil War, ahem,
> the War Between the States, he edited an anthology of pro-Union and
> patriotic poetry which included some songs.
>
> Furthermore, Child was the son of a Boston sailmaker.  I cannot imagine
> that he would have remained entirely ignorant of sea songs if he spent any
> time at all in his father's sail loft.
>
> Ed
>

Does anyone have a copy of Professor Norton's article on Child published in
the Proceedings of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, XXXII,334,
335? I would be interested to know if it gave any more details about his
early life.Ruairidh Greig----- Original Message -----
From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: Childless Ballads> That was the mock-opera Il Pescabello. Child also wrote at least one
> Civil-War song. While he may have heard one or more ballads informally, I
> believe that his book(s) had only published sources.
>
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> > John:
> >
> > F.J. Child, a son of Boston and Harvard, was at least nominally aware of
> > what were known as "traditional ballads."  While in school, he was
reputed
> > to be the author of a stage play, "The Story of the Lone Fishball [?],"
a
> > copy of which does not seem to have survived.  During the Civil War,
ahem,
> > the War Between the States, he edited an anthology of pro-Union and
> > patriotic poetry which included some songs.
> >
> > Furthermore, Child was the son of a Boston sailmaker.  I cannot imagine
> > that he would have remained entirely ignorant of sea songs if he spent
any
> > time at all in his father's sail loft.
> >
> > Ed
> >
>

Ruairidh:Our library has a run of the journal.  The volume number suggests that the
desired number was published in 1880.  The pages you give (334-35) suggest
it is a review -- but of what?  I assume that "Professor Norton" was
actually Child's friend, Charles Eliot Norton.  I shall try to get a look
at this on Tuesday and will report to the list.EdOn Sun, 29 Oct 2000, Ruairidh Greig wrote:> Does anyone have a copy of Professor Norton's article on Child published in
> the Proceedings of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, XXXII,334,
> 335? I would be interested to know if it gave any more details about his
> early life.
>
> Ruairidh Greig
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dick greenhaus" <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 2:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Childless Ballads
>
>
> > That was the mock-opera Il Pescabello. Child also wrote at least one
> > Civil-War song. While he may have heard one or more ballads informally, I
> > believe that his book(s) had only published sources.
> >
> > On Fri, 27 Oct 2000, Ed Cray wrote:
> >
> > > John:
> > >
> > > F.J. Child, a son of Boston and Harvard, was at least nominally aware of
> > > what were known as "traditional ballads."  While in school, he was
> reputed
> > > to be the author of a stage play, "The Story of the Lone Fishball [?],"
> a
> > > copy of which does not seem to have survived.  During the Civil War,
> ahem,
> > > the War Between the States, he edited an anthology of pro-Union and
> > > patriotic poetry which included some songs.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, Child was the son of a Boston sailmaker.  I cannot imagine
> > > that he would have remained entirely ignorant of sea songs if he spent
> any
> > > time at all in his father's sail loft.
> > >
> > > Ed
> > >
> >
>

In a message dated 10/27/00 7:17:25 AM, [unmask] writes:>Is there any evidence that Child had any interest in the music or singing,
>or that he ever heard a traditional singer?
****************************
Child has been quoted as saying  that he was "wholly incurious" about the
music of the ballads, although in his _The English and Scottish Popular
Ballads_, he did include an extensive index to published airs of the songs,
along with the tunes for 55 of them as an appendix  under the heading
"Ballad Airs From Manuscript."  There is no evidence that he ever heard any
of these actually sung. He was a student and scholar of written literature
(if you will excuse a tautology), and I think his main intent was to find
written or published versions of these songs that did not bear evidence of
editorial tampering by the collectors.From what I've read somewhere -- and can't remember where -- I think Child
did not consider the _Ballads_ his greatest work;  he was perhaps more
partial to his researches into Middle English, especially  his studies on how
Chaucer intended his written words to be pronounced.Sam
La Jolla, CA

Sam:
Do you recall where those comments on Child came from?
Norm
-----Original Message-----
From: [unmask] <[unmask]>
To: [unmask] <[unmask]>
Date: Monday, October 30, 2000 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: Childless Ballads>In a message dated 10/27/00 7:17:25 AM, [unmask] writes:
>
>>Is there any evidence that Child had any interest in the music or singing,
>>or that he ever heard a traditional singer?
>****************************
>Child has been quoted as saying  that he was "wholly incurious" about the
>music of the ballads, although in his _The English and Scottish Popular
>Ballads_, he did include an extensive index to published airs of the songs,
>along with the tunes for 55 of them as an appendix  under the heading
>"Ballad Airs From Manuscript."  There is no evidence that he ever heard any
>of these actually sung. He was a student and scholar of written literature
>(if you will excuse a tautology), and I think his main intent was to find
>written or published versions of these songs that did not bear evidence of
>editorial tampering by the collectors.
>
>>From what I've read somewhere -- and can't remember where -- I think Child
>did not consider the _Ballads_ his greatest work;  he was perhaps more
>partial to his researches into Middle English, especially  his studies on
how
>Chaucer intended his written words to be pronounced.
>
>Sam
>La Jolla, CA
>

Lani Hermann asked me to post the message below.  Please disregard the
header stuff.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann [mailto:[unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 5:08 PM
To: [unmask]
Subject: [[unmask]: Returned mail: User unknown]----- Forwarded message from Mail Delivery Subsystem
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From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <[unmask]>
To: [unmask]
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)The original message was received at Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:02:10 -0800 (PST)
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...Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 14:02:10 -0800
From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
To: [unmask]
Subject: [[unmask]: Rejected posting to
[unmask]]
X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1iHi Marge.
My old ISP dropped me last month, and I've been busy traveling ever since,
so have not
had a chance to straighten out my new address.  Please post this anyway (I
rarely do,
but ....) and I'll try to get right by the software Real Soon Now.
 Thanks --
Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360----- Forwarded message from "L-Soft list server at Indiana University
(1.8d)" <[unmask]> -----Date:         Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:58:16 -0500
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From: Cal & Lani Herrmann <[unmask]>
To: Forum for ballad scholars <[unmask]>
Cc: [unmask]
Subject: Re: Childless Ballads
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[unmask] on Tue, Oct 31, 2000 at 11:31:44AM -0800Boo, and Happy Halloween!
        Sorry to be responding to this thread a bit late, but I've been out o' town
-- saw Dick Greenhaus and Susan Friedman and the Nicholses at the FSGW
GetAway
week before last, and heard Jamie Moreira read a paper at the American
Folklore
Society meetings this past wkend.
        But I was amazed, scrolling through the piles of my back e-mail, that no
one
to date has even mentioned the recordings in the boxed set produced by the
late
Kenneth S. Goldstein and published by Riverside in 1956 (Riverside Records
Presents
The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (The Child Ballads) sung by Ewan
MacColl
and A.L. Lloyd, edited by ..., 4 vols + 1, RLP 12-621-9). Of the 82 items
recorded.
72 are in the Child canon, and the rest are Childless:
        The Bitter Withy, Lang A-Growing,  The Bramble Briar, The Seven Virgins,
Down
in Yon Forest, The Bold Fisherman, The Blind Beggar's Daughter of Bethnal
Green,
Six Dukes Went A-Fishing, The Holy Well, and The Shooting of His Dear.        Goldstein's Introduction says
        "The Child ballads have long remained the standard by which ballads are
judged.
This standard has been so difficult to attain that only a few ballads have
been
recommended in addition to Child's canon.  Of these, only one, The Bitter
Withy,
has been universally accepted by scholars as worthy of admission.  The last
volume of this recorded series includes ten British ballads not included by
Child.
Not all are the same high order as The Bitter Withy, but neither are many of
the
ballads which Child included.  There is little doubt, however, that though
they
may vary in excellence, all ten are equal or superior to many of the Child
ballads."
        He declines to offer a definition of the ballad, but cites some standard
references
(Coffin, Friedman, Gerould, Hodgart, Pound, Wells, Wimberly) and also defers
to
others (Sharp, Barry, Griegn, Keith, Bayard, Bronson) for 'musicological
knowledge.'
        I haven't yet looked again at Ed's original list, but I have the feeling --
he
peeked?  *8^)= -- Aloha, Lani<||> Lani Herrmann * NOTE NEW E-ADDRESS: [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Ave. * Richmond, CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360----- End forwarded message ---------- End forwarded message -----

The Riverside series noted in the repost from Lani Herrmann is the
original series which was later reissued under the Washington label.
Donald Duncan noted all the ballads in 'The Great British Ballads not
included in the Child Collection' in a posting of Oct. 22 (Washington
723, formerly Riverside 12-629). I have a mixed set with the original
Riverside issue of the non-Child ballads, and the 8 vols. of the Child
ballads on the Washington label.Bruce Olson

>Problem one: Can anyone confirm that Harry Cox sang 'She Was a Rum One'? I
>have seen no previous reference to it.I was skeptical of the existence of this, based on a recollection of
someone's sharp challenge to vague, undocumented stories about "Rising
Sun" songs in Britain, but Ted Anthony (author of a recent AP article
on "House of the Rising Sun" tells me that he has a copy of the
original field recording.  Thanks, Ted, for the following>I have the recording on a CD in New York, made for me by the Alan Lomax
>Archives in Manhattan, and I have heard it. I also have a transcript of it
>made shortly after the recording. In it, Cox sings "She Was a Rum One," and
>when he's done, Lomax says something to the effect of, "There's another way
>to start that song, isn't there, Harry?" Cox replies with the Rising Sun
>verse (in a very thick accent, even thicker than when he's singing).This leads me to believe that one can obtain a copy in the same way that
Ted did.>Problem two: The other two British versions of the song known to me - by
>Jeannie Robertson and Davy Stewart - contain nothing remotely like these
>lines, although they are frankly sexual
>Problem three: 'The Rising Sun' is a perfectly respectable name for an
>English pub, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lowestoft had one before the
>recent mania for changing pub names (which, incidentally, should be
>illegal!).
>Problem four: I've just checked 11  British slang dictionaries and none of
>them mention Rising Sun as a bordello - or as anything else for that matter.
>So - further evidence required before we accept your theory.
>Surely, if anything is to be described as 'Rising' in this context,  it
>should be the male, rather than the female sexual parts!Since my post, I, too, have been checking slang dictionaries (on
line).  I found the following.A WWW site, http://lugnutz.com/slang.htm, identifies "visiting the
land of the rising sun" with "having sex with a menstruating woman.">Steve Roud
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: John Garst <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 9:24 PM
>Subject: Rising Sun
>
>
>>  I have been assured by someone who has heard it that the Harry Cox
>>  recording of "She's a Rum One," collected by Alan Lomax, does indeed
>>  include the verse
>>
>>  "If you go to Lowestoft
>>  And ask for the Rising Sun,
>>  There you'll find two old whores,
>>  And my old woman's one."
>>
>>  This has been cited in connection with the American ballad "House of
>>  the Rising Sun" as evidence that "Rising Sun" is a traditional term,
>>  in Britain, for a bordello.
>>
>>  A blues recording by Texas Alexander, The Risin' Sun (1928), has been
>>  transcribed as follows:
>>
>>      My woman got something, just like the rising sun
>>      My woman got something, like the rising sun
>>      You can never tell when the work is done
>>
>>      It's no use to worry, but the day's been long
>>      It's no use to worry, but the day's been long
>>      Need to worry about your rollin'
>>      because they're sure going wrong (?)
>>
>>      She got something round, and it looks like a bear
>>      She got something round, and it looks like a bear
>>      Sometime I wonder what in the hell is there
>>
>>  This sounds like the "rising sun" is the vagina.  The "rising" part
>>  could refer to female sexual arousal.  If this is correct, then I'm
>>  surprised that G. Legman never ran into this usage (apparently,
>>  nothing like this is included in his notes on House of the Rising Sun
>>  in the Randolph Unprintable volume).
>>
>>  How about it, Brits (and others)?  Is any of this speculation valid?
>>  --
>>  john garst    [unmask]--
john garst    [unmask]

John
Thanks for confirming the Harry Cox song - I look forward to hearing it
sometime. Harry was one of my favourite singers, and it's comforting to know
that there is material still out there which I haven't yet heard. It gives
me something to look forward to, like learning that a previously unknown
book by a favourite author has just been published. Incidentally, Topic
Records are issuing a new double CD of Harry in November, with lots of
previously unpublished songs on it.As for the slang site you found - very interesting in its own right but
hardly admissible as evidence in this case, because:1.    Lomax recorded Harry Cox in East Anglia in the early 1950s. Assuming
that Harry hadn't just learnt the verse in question, let's say he knew it
fifty years ago. He was born in 1885, so let's say he could have learnt the
verse up to 100 years ago.
2.    The slang website (as is usual) gives little information about
who/what/when produced it, but from its content I think we're safe to assume
that it's American, and recent. Let's at least assume also that the
compilers haven't simply made up their entries and that the items do have
some real currency in their community.
3.    But can we accept a present-day American 'Modern Street Slang' usage
as evidence for a meaning in a verse sung by an East Anglian farmworker
between 50 and 100 years ago?My scepticism remains undented.
Steve Roud----- Original Message -----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: Rising Sun> >Problem one: Can anyone confirm that Harry Cox sang 'She Was a Rum One'?
I
> >have seen no previous reference to it.
>
> I was skeptical of the existence of this, based on a recollection of
> someone's sharp challenge to vague, undocumented stories about "Rising
> Sun" songs in Britain, but Ted Anthony (author of a recent AP article
> on "House of the Rising Sun" tells me that he has a copy of the
> original field recording.  Thanks, Ted, for the following
>
> >I have the recording on a CD in New York, made for me by the Alan Lomax
> >Archives in Manhattan, and I have heard it. I also have a transcript of
it
> >made shortly after the recording. In it, Cox sings "She Was a Rum One,"
and
> >when he's done, Lomax says something to the effect of, "There's another
way
> >to start that song, isn't there, Harry?" Cox replies with the Rising Sun
> >verse (in a very thick accent, even thicker than when he's singing).
>
> This leads me to believe that one can obtain a copy in the same way that
> Ted did.
>
> >Problem two: The other two British versions of the song known to me - by
> >Jeannie Robertson and Davy Stewart - contain nothing remotely like these
> >lines, although they are frankly sexual
> >Problem three: 'The Rising Sun' is a perfectly respectable name for an
> >English pub, and I wouldn't be surprised if Lowestoft had one before the
> >recent mania for changing pub names (which, incidentally, should be
> >illegal!).
> >Problem four: I've just checked 11  British slang dictionaries and none
of
> >them mention Rising Sun as a bordello - or as anything else for that
matter.
> >So - further evidence required before we accept your theory.
> >Surely, if anything is to be described as 'Rising' in this context,  it
> >should be the male, rather than the female sexual parts!
>
> Since my post, I, too, have been checking slang dictionaries (on
> line).  I found the following.
>
> A WWW site, http://lugnutz.com/slang.htm, identifies "visiting the
> land of the rising sun" with "having sex with a menstruating woman."
>
> >Steve Roud
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: John Garst <[unmask]>
> >To: <[unmask]>
> >Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 9:24 PM
> >Subject: Rising Sun
> >
> >
> >>  I have been assured by someone who has heard it that the Harry Cox
> >>  recording of "She's a Rum One," collected by Alan Lomax, does indeed
> >>  include the verse
> >>
> >>  "If you go to Lowestoft
> >>  And ask for the Rising Sun,
> >>  There you'll find two old whores,
> >>  And my old woman's one."
> >>
> >>  This has been cited in connection with the American ballad "House of
> >>  the Rising Sun" as evidence that "Rising Sun" is a traditional term,
> >>  in Britain, for a bordello.
> >>
> >>  A blues recording by Texas Alexander, The Risin' Sun (1928), has been
> >>  transcribed as follows:
> >>
> >>      My woman got something, just like the rising sun
> >>      My woman got something, like the rising sun
> >>      You can never tell when the work is done
> >>
> >>      It's no use to worry, but the day's been long
> >>      It's no use to worry, but the day's been long
> >>      Need to worry about your rollin'
> >>      because they're sure going wrong (?)
> >>
> >>      She got something round, and it looks like a bear
> >>      She got something round, and it looks like a bear
> >>      Sometime I wonder what in the hell is there
> >>
> >>  This sounds like the "rising sun" is the vagina.  The "rising" part
> >>  could refer to female sexual arousal.  If this is correct, then I'm
> >>  surprised that G. Legman never ran into this usage (apparently,
> >>  nothing like this is included in his notes on House of the Rising Sun
> >>  in the Randolph Unprintable volume).
> >>
> >>  How about it, Brits (and others)?  Is any of this speculation valid?
> >>  --
> >>  john garst    [unmask]
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

In Hilaire Belloc's 1912 book, The Four Men, he makes several references to
a song that ends with the line "..and I will sing Golier." He quotes a melody
for the phrase on the frontspiece, and includes several fragments in the text.
Is there such a song, either written by Belloc, or traditional, and what does
'golier' mean?
 It has been suggested to me that the word is  Gaelic and is a corruption of
the expression 'go leor' which means 'plenty of something'.
Yrs,
Barbara Millikan

Barbara
As far as I know, the word 'Golier' or 'Goliere' remains a mystery. I had
presumed that Belloc made it up (as poets do that sort of thing), but it
also turns up in Arthur Beckett's book about Sussex called 'The Spirit of
the Downs' (p.82) which was published in 1909. Beckett gives the text of the
song 'There was an old woman drawn up in a basket' (which is a fairly
well-known song in Britain, more usually called 'Old woman tossed up in a
blanket'). Beckett's version of the 'Old Woman' has lines tacked onto the
end about drinking beer, ending
While we do say, Goliere.
Goliere! Goliere! Goliere! Goliere!
While we do say, Goliere!
And you shall drink it all up!
While we do say Goliere!
Now Beckett is a more 'reliable' writer than Belloc, but the word does not
appear in any of the national dialect dictionaries I have consulted, nor in
those of  Sussex (or neighbouring counties). These words do not appear in
any other version of the 'Old Woman' song that I can find. I don't have
Belloc's book to hand, but as it was written in 1911, he would probably have
been familiar with Beckett's work, and may simply have lifted it from him,
but this doesn't explain where Beckett got it from.Bob Copper, who probably knows more about Sussex songs than anyone else,
devotes a few pages to the question in his book 'Across Sussex with Belloc'
(Alan Sutton, 1994), but he admits to being completely baffled by it, and
specifically states that neither he nor any other singer he's asked has
heard of it before.One small lead that I can't follow up from home, but will in a few days. The
Opies' 'Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes' notes an 1886 reference to the
'Old Woman' rhyme being used in a Sussex harvest song, and it is possible
that this was Beckett's source. I will let you know if this is relevant.One other point. Sussex is a very long way from the land of the Gaels, and
it is highly unlikely that the word has any Gaelic roots.
Steve Roud (in Sussex)----- Original Message -----
From: Barbara Millikan <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 8:43 PM
Subject: meaning of "Golier"> In Hilaire Belloc's 1912 book, The Four Men, he makes several references
to
> a song that ends with the line "..and I will sing Golier." He quotes a
melody
> for the phrase on the frontspiece, and includes several fragments in the
text.
> Is there such a song, either written by Belloc, or traditional, and what
does
> 'golier' mean?
>  It has been suggested to me that the word is  Gaelic and is a corruption
of
> the expression 'go leor' which means 'plenty of something'.
> Yrs,
> Barbara Millikan

John:The rising sun motif was a common decoration in the clerestory lights over
front door lintels of Georgian and Federal architecture.  It was also
carved into the backs of chairs as a decorative device.One can sometimes see it as a "survival" in the backs of American
presswood chairs manufactured in the last half of the 19th C.So the house of the rising sun just might be a reference to any
Georgian/Federal house -- regardless of comforts offered within.EdOn Sun, 1 Oct 2000, John Garst wrote:> >...
> >3.    But can we accept a present-day American 'Modern Street Slang' usage
> >as evidence for a meaning in a verse sung by an East Anglian farmworker
> >between 50 and 100 years ago?
> >
> >My scepticism remains undented.
> >Steve Roud
>
> Mine is dented by several findings of "rising sun" in sexual
> contexts, even though they are not all particularly consistent.
>
> I found a reference to an actual "House of the Rising Sun" in America
> (at http://www.hoffman-info.com/kingkill33.html).
>
> >Fredericksburg is also the location of the "House of the Rising
> >Sun," a masonic meeting place for such notables as founding fathers
> >George Washington and Benjamin Franklin (of Hell-Fire Club fame) and
> >George Mason.
>
> This far predates the presumed origin of the song "House of the
> Rising Sun" and it appears to have nothing to do with prostitution or
> sex (unless the American founding fathers were engaging there in
> ancient rituals not usually attributed to Freemasons).
>
>
>
>
> --
> john garst    [unmask]

If you giv4 "Goliere" a French pronunciation, it rhymes with "say." Who knows
French? (or Breton?)roud wrote:> Barbara
> As far as I know, the word 'Golier' or 'Goliere' remains a mystery. I had
> presumed that Belloc made it up (as poets do that sort of thing), but it
> also turns up in Arthur Beckett's book about Sussex called 'The Spirit of
> the Downs' (p.82) which was published in 1909. Beckett gives the text of the
> song 'There was an old woman drawn up in a basket' (which is a fairly
> well-known song in Britain, more usually called 'Old woman tossed up in a
> blanket'). Beckett's version of the 'Old Woman' has lines tacked onto the
> end about drinking beer, ending
> While we do say, Goliere.
> Goliere! Goliere! Goliere! Goliere!
> While we do say, Goliere!
> And you shall drink it all up!
> While we do say Goliere!
> Now Beckett is a more 'reliable' writer than Belloc, but the word does not
> appear in any of the national dialect dictionaries I have consulted, nor in
> those of  Sussex (or neighbouring counties). These words do not appear in
> any other version of the 'Old Woman' song that I can find. I don't have
> Belloc's book to hand, but as it was written in 1911, he would probably have
> been familiar with Beckett's work, and may simply have lifted it from him,
> but this doesn't explain where Beckett got it from.
>
> Bob Copper, who probably knows more about Sussex songs than anyone else,
> devotes a few pages to the question in his book 'Across Sussex with Belloc'
> (Alan Sutton, 1994), but he admits to being completely baffled by it, and
> specifically states that neither he nor any other singer he's asked has
> heard of it before.
>
> One small lead that I can't follow up from home, but will in a few days. The
> Opies' 'Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes' notes an 1886 reference to the
> 'Old Woman' rhyme being used in a Sussex harvest song, and it is possible
> that this was Beckett's source. I will let you know if this is relevant.
>
> One other point. Sussex is a very long way from the land of the Gaels, and
> it is highly unlikely that the word has any Gaelic roots.
> Steve Roud (in Sussex)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barbara Millikan <[unmask]>
> To: <[unmask]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2000 8:43 PM
> Subject: meaning of "Golier"
>
> > In Hilaire Belloc's 1912 book, The Four Men, he makes several references
> to
> > a song that ends with the line "..and I will sing Golier." He quotes a
> melody
> > for the phrase on the frontspiece, and includes several fragments in the
> text.
> > Is there such a song, either written by Belloc, or traditional, and what
> does
> > 'golier' mean?
> >  It has been suggested to me that the word is  Gaelic and is a corruption
> of
> > the expression 'go leor' which means 'plenty of something'.
> > Yrs,
> > Barbara Millikan

I tried looking up the word "golier' and also "goliere" in the OED online,
but I turned up nothing.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

A Google search for "golier OR goliere" gives about 520 hits.  There
are towns, people, and companies named "Golier" (and "De Golier").
--
john garst    [unmask]

>The rising sun motif was a common decoration in the clerestory lights over
>front door lintels of Georgian and Federal architecture.  It was also
>carved into the backs of chairs as a decorative device.
>
>One can sometimes see it as a "survival" in the backs of American
>presswood chairs manufactured in the last half of the 19th C.
>
>So the house of the rising sun just might be a reference to any
>Georgian/Federal house -- regardless of comforts offered within.
>
>Ed (Cray)Legman suggests that France's "Sun King" could have been a large
influence in popularizing rising sun patterns.Not only did early 19th-century New Orleans have a Rising Sun Tavern
but so did many other places in both Britain and America.  Indeed,
there was a "House of the Rising Sun" in New Orleans, but this is
hardly unique, since they were all over the place.  One might ask the
question, "Why is 'Rising Sun' such a popular name for taverns, inns,
pubs, bordellos(?), etc.?"If you search "Rising Sun" on the WWW, you will get many hits that
are sex related.  I suspect that most of these connections were made
after "House of the Rising Sun" became popular, but there is still, I
believe, an underlying thread of sexual linkage to "rising sun" that
predated, or may have been insulated from, that influence.
--
john garst    [unmask]

On Sun, Oct 01, 2000 at 10:34:15PM +0100, roud wrote:> Barbara
> As far as I know, the word 'Golier' or 'Goliere' remains a mystery. I had
> presumed that Belloc made it up (as poets do that sort of thing), but it
> also turns up in Arthur Beckett's book about Sussex called 'The Spirit of ======================================================================
        Looking through my Compact Edition of the OED, I find "goliard"
Class of educated jesters, buffoons, and authors ... loose and satirical
Latin verse ... 12th and 13th century ... Germany, France & England.
 ======================================================================        Sorry for the fragmentary typing, but I'm trying to juggle the
big volume, the keyboard, a pair of extra-strong glasses, and a
magnifying glass at once -- all but the glasses in my lap. :-)        Anyway -- could it be a corrupted form of this word?        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Off topic, perhaps, but... The decorative motif of the sunrise was certainly
popular for a long time before anyone collected "House of the Rising Sun";
there used to be a little book called "The English Sunrise" containing
photographs of architectural adornments using that motif. And other bits,
including a gorgeous one from an English table radio. My former wife had the
radio design (which resembled the engravings on the backs of National steel
guitars, but without the hula girls) inlaid on the fingerboard of her banjo.
Must search out that book one of these days.Peace.
Paul

 At 10:34 PM 10/1/00 +0100, you wrote:
>Barbara
>As far as I know, the word 'Golier' or 'Goliere' remains a mystery. I had
>presumed that Belloc made it up (as poets do that sort of thing), but it
>also turns up in Arthur Beckett's book about Sussex called 'The Spirit of
>the Downs' (p.82) which was published in 1909. Beckett gives the text of the
>song 'There was an old woman drawn up in a basket' (which is a fairly
>well-known song in Britain, more usually called 'Old woman tossed up in a
>blanket'). Beckett's version of the 'Old Woman' has lines tacked onto the
>end about drinking beer, ending
>While we do say, Goliere.
>Goliere! Goliere! Goliere! Goliere!
>While we do say, Goliere!
>And you shall drink it all up!
>While we do say Goliere!
>Now Beckett is a more 'reliable' writer than Belloc, but the word does not
>appear in any of the national dialect dictionaries I have consulted, nor in
>those of  Sussex (or neighbouring counties). These words do not appear in
>any other version of the 'Old Woman' song that I can find. I don't have
>Belloc's book to hand, but as it was written in 1911, he would probably have
>been familiar with Beckett's work, and may simply have lifted it from him,
>but this doesn't explain where Beckett got it from.
>
>Bob Copper, who probably knows more about Sussex songs than anyone else,
>devotes a few pages to the question in his book 'Across Sussex with Belloc'
>(Alan Sutton, 1994), but he admits to being completely baffled by it, and
>specifically states that neither he nor any other singer he's asked has
>heard of it before.
>
>One small lead that I can't follow up from home, but will in a few days. The
>Opies' 'Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes' notes an 1886 reference to the
>'Old Woman' rhyme being used in a Sussex harvest song, and it is possible
>that this was Beckett's source. I will let you know if this is relevant.
>
>One other point. Sussex is a very long way from the land of the Gaels, and
>it is highly unlikely that the word has any Gaelic roots.
>Steve Roud (in Sussex)
>The one verse that Belloc quotes reads:
"If Bonaparte
Shud zummon d'Eart
To land on Pevensey Level,
I have two sons
With our three guns
To blarst un to the de-e-vil.And he introduces it thus:
"With this Grizzlebeard, clearing his aged throat, tunefully carolled out
the following manly verse in the tune to which all Sussex songs have been
set, without exception, since the beginning of time -- the tune which is
called "Golier"."Which could mean the verse is part of the song, or it could be that poetic
license to which you referred. It does not, however sound like part of
"Woman in a Basket/Blanket".
Belloc goes on to describe a war between the Kings of Sussex and Kent over a
variant of the verse quoted, the only difference being that "the three men
come from Horsemonden".
Belloc does include music, and I can send you a MIDI attachment privately if
that helps.
Yrs,
Barbara Millikan

Barbara
Yes, send me the midi file ([unmask]). If my hunch is right (and it
is still only a hunch) - that Belloc is extrapolating from Beckett - the
tune will turn out to be LILLIBURLERO, which Beckett mentions twice (e.g.
"Many were the sets of words fitted to the popular air 'Lilliburlero'. Among
these was the toast known as 'There was an old woman'...").
I don't recognise Belloc's verse from elsewhere - it could be traditional,
but is very much like the pseudo-traditional of the period, summoning as it
does the vision of the simple sturdy Sussex peasant. Is there anything else
like it in the book? I wouldn't be surprised if the Kent/Sussex argument
turns up in another guise from which Belloc borrowed.
The 1886 reference to Sussex harvest songs which I mentioned has proved
problematic. It's meant to be in Notes & Queries 1886, but I have failed to
find it there, but will keep looking. It may be a wild goose chase anyway.
Regards
Steve Roud----- Original Message -----
From: Barbara Millikan <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2000 5:54 AM
Subject: Re: meaning of "Golier"> At 10:34 PM 10/1/00 +0100, you wrote:
> >Barbara
> >As far as I know, the word 'Golier' or 'Goliere' remains a mystery. I had
> >presumed that Belloc made it up (as poets do that sort of thing), but it
> >also turns up in Arthur Beckett's book about Sussex called 'The Spirit of
> >the Downs' (p.82) which was published in 1909. Beckett gives the text of
the
> >song 'There was an old woman drawn up in a basket' (which is a fairly
> >well-known song in Britain, more usually called 'Old woman tossed up in a
> >blanket'). Beckett's version of the 'Old Woman' has lines tacked onto the
> >end about drinking beer, ending
> >While we do say, Goliere.
> >Goliere! Goliere! Goliere! Goliere!
> >While we do say, Goliere!
> >And you shall drink it all up!
> >While we do say Goliere!
> >Now Beckett is a more 'reliable' writer than Belloc, but the word does
not
> >appear in any of the national dialect dictionaries I have consulted, nor
in
> >those of  Sussex (or neighbouring counties). These words do not appear in
> >any other version of the 'Old Woman' song that I can find. I don't have
> >Belloc's book to hand, but as it was written in 1911, he would probably
have
> >been familiar with Beckett's work, and may simply have lifted it from
him,
> >but this doesn't explain where Beckett got it from.
> >
> >Bob Copper, who probably knows more about Sussex songs than anyone else,
> >devotes a few pages to the question in his book 'Across Sussex with
Belloc'
> >(Alan Sutton, 1994), but he admits to being completely baffled by it, and
> >specifically states that neither he nor any other singer he's asked has
> >heard of it before.
> >
> >One small lead that I can't follow up from home, but will in a few days.
The
> >Opies' 'Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes' notes an 1886 reference to
the
> >'Old Woman' rhyme being used in a Sussex harvest song, and it is possible
> >that this was Beckett's source. I will let you know if this is relevant.
> >
> >One other point. Sussex is a very long way from the land of the Gaels,
and
> >it is highly unlikely that the word has any Gaelic roots.
> >Steve Roud (in Sussex)
> >
>
> The one verse that Belloc quotes reads:
> "If Bonaparte
> Shud zummon d'Eart
> To land on Pevensey Level,
> I have two sons
> With our three guns
> To blarst un to the de-e-vil.
>
> And he introduces it thus:
> "With this Grizzlebeard, clearing his aged throat, tunefully carolled out
> the following manly verse in the tune to which all Sussex songs have been
> set, without exception, since the beginning of time -- the tune which is
> called "Golier"."
>
> Which could mean the verse is part of the song, or it could be that poetic
> license to which you referred. It does not, however sound like part of
> "Woman in a Basket/Blanket".
> Belloc goes on to describe a war between the Kings of Sussex and Kent over
a
> variant of the verse quoted, the only difference being that "the three men
> come from Horsemonden".
> Belloc does include music, and I can send you a MIDI attachment privately
if
> that helps.
> Yrs,
> Barbara Millikan

For any list members who are living near or will be travelling to the New
Hampshire Seacoast, there will be a Maritime Folk Fesival in Portsmouth on
14-15 October. Music, songs, stories and demonstrations will be taking
place during the day on Sat. and Sun., all free. Saturday night concert
featuring Louis Killen, Jeff Warner, Danny and Joyce McLeod, and
Forebitter will be at the UU Church on State Street. For late breaking
details go to http://www.folkhorizons.org Hope to see some of you there  -
Tom & Linn

I forgot to mention that the Sat. night Sea Song Concert is $10.00 per
person. Mea Culpa - Tom

This was posted to another folklore list this morning.  I thought many
on ballad-l would have useful suggestions and insights.  Please cc
responses to the student who sent the initial post.   ThanksCheers
Jamie>From: <[unmask]>
>
>To any and everyone who has an opinion regarding this issue: I am a
Junior at
>Wesleyan University and am doing some research regarding Joe Hill and
the
>intersection of labor and music in general, eventually resulting in a
senior thesis
>film. I am currently taking a look at the way in which the IWW used
songs, and
>had some general questions I would like to pose. First off, was the
manner that
>the IWW used music as an organising tool unique? Were there any other
>movements at that time or since then that have used songs in a similar
fashion?>The broader question is why did songs and IWW go hand in hand. What was
>unique about the movement that allowed for or needed music as a
motivating
>force? I understand these are broad, complicated questions, but I would
>appreciate any and all thoughts you have on this issue, in addition to
any sources
>that might help me in my research.
>
>   Thanks in advance.
>   -Jody Avirgan-
>   [unmask]
>

In a message dated 10/10/00 10:36:40 AM, [unmask] writes:>This was posted to another folklore list this morning.  I thought many
>on ballad-l would have useful suggestions and insights.  Please cc
>responses to the student who sent the initial post.   Thanks
>
>Cheers
>Jamie
>
>>From: <[unmask]>
>>
>>To any and everyone who has an opinion regarding this issue: I am a
>Junior at
>>Wesleyan University and am doing some research regarding Joe Hill and
>the
>>intersection of labor and music in general, eventually resulting in a
>senior thesis
>>film. I am currently taking a look at the way in which the IWW used
>songs, and
>>had some general questions I would like to pose. First off, was the
>manner that
>>the IWW used music as an organising tool unique? Were there any other
>>movements at that time or since then that have used songs in a similar
>fashion?
>
>>The broader question is why did songs and IWW go hand in hand. What was
>>unique about the movement that allowed for or needed music as a
>motivating
>>force? I understand these are broad, complicated questions, but I would
>>appreciate any and all thoughts you have on this issue, in addition to
>any sources
>>that might help me in my research.
***********************
JodyFirst off, I think music was more of a crowd-gatherer than an  organizing
force for the IWW.  Its chief political function, to my mind, was as a sort
of cheerleading;  binding together a crowd of people who had already been
converted.  The IWW has printed its "Little Red Songbook" in many editions,
and it's still available from them.  You'll find all the words to a recent
edition of its songs reproduced on the Internet, at
<http://ww.acronet.net/~robokopp/iwww.html> :  this site is even better than
the "Little Red Book" itself, for it has a good many downloadable tunes.There's a lot information available in a book by Joyce Kornbluh: _Rebel
Voices, An IWW Anthology_.The IWW is still in existence,  and maintains a homepage at: <http://iww.org>.There is some mention of music in _Bird, Georgakas, and Shaffer: _Solidarity
Forever: An Oral History of the IWW.Phillip S. Foner has a good book (he as MANY books!)  called _American Labor
Songs of the Nineteenth Century_.  The IWW dates only from about 1905, so
doesn't get much space, but the book gives a lot of useful general
information abut Unions and Music.  The IWW is by no means the only Union
that has made good use of muic. When I was a Zoology Student at UCLA in 1937,
I joined the Hollywood Theater Alliance as a volunteer, singing and leading
songs on Union picket lines in the Los Angeles area.  This led to a paid ($50
a week!) job as a performer in the Alliance's musical revue, "Meet the
People,"  which ran in Hollywood for 10 months, and gave me the wherewithal
to marry and support a fellow-student (Art major) named Leslie. We have just
celebrated our 60th Anniversary.One of this country's great folk singers is U. Utah Phillips, who is a
card-carrying member of the IWW, as well as of Local 1000 of the American
Federation of Musicians.  (His real name is Bruce Phillips;  he comes from
Utah, and took his professional name following the example of T. Texas
Tyler.)  Bruce is not only a singer, raconteur, and IWW member, but a fine
historian, and I'll bet you could get a lot of information from a phone
conversation with him.  You could reach him through:  U. Utah Phillips / NO
GUFF RECORDS / PO Box 1235 / Nevada City, CA 95959; he doesn't have an e-mail
address.  Bruce has fallen on hard times, and his friends have set up a
web-site for him at: <http://www.utahphillips.org>, and that site has a
number of links to other sites that might help in  your research.Good luck!Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA. USA

That url should be:
   http://www.acronet.net/~robokopp/iww.htmlCheers,
Paddy Tutty[unmask] wrote:>  its songs reproduced on the Internet, at
> <http://ww.acronet.net/~robokopp/iwww.html> :  this site is even better than
> the "Little Red Book" itself, for it has a good many downloadable tunes.
>
> There's a lot information available in a book by Joyce Kornbluh: _Rebel
> Voices, An IWW Anthology_.
>
> The IWW is still in existence,  and maintains a homepage at: <http://iww.org>.
>
> There is some mention of music in _Bird, Georgakas, and Shaffer: _Solidarity
> Forever: An Oral History of the IWW.
>
> Phillip S. Foner has a good book (he as MANY books!)  called _American Labor
> Songs of the Nineteenth Century_.  The IWW dates only from about 1905, so
> doesn't get much space, but the book gives a lot of useful general
> information abut Unions and Music.  The IWW is by no means the only Union
> that has made good use of muic. When I was a Zoology Student at UCLA in 1937,
> I joined the Hollywood Theater Alliance as a volunteer, singing and leading
> songs on Union picket lines in the Los Angeles area.  This led to a paid ($50
> a week!) job as a performer in the Alliance's musical revue, "Meet the
> People,"  which ran in Hollywood for 10 months, and gave me the wherewithal
> to marry and support a fellow-student (Art major) named Leslie. We have just
> celebrated our 60th Anniversary.
>
> One of this country's great folk singers is U. Utah Phillips, who is a
> card-carrying member of the IWW, as well as of Local 1000 of the American
> Federation of Musicians.  (His real name is Bruce Phillips;  he comes from
> Utah, and took his professional name following the example of T. Texas
> Tyler.)  Bruce is not only a singer, raconteur, and IWW member, but a fine
> historian, and I'll bet you could get a lot of information from a phone
> conversation with him.  You could reach him through:  U. Utah Phillips / NO
> GUFF RECORDS / PO Box 1235 / Nevada City, CA 95959; he doesn't have an e-mail
> address.  Bruce has fallen on hard times, and his friends have set up a
> web-site for him at: <http://www.utahphillips.org>, and that site has a
> number of links to other sites that might help in  your research.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Sam Hinton
> La Jolla, CA. USA

Good People:There is material on the IWW singing tradition in Lori Elaine Tayloer,
"Joe Hill Incorporated: We Own Our Past," in Jeff Ferrell, "The
Brotherhood of Timber Workers and the Culture of Conflict" and in Sam
Richards, "The Joe Hill Legend in Britain," all in Archie Green, ed.,
_Songs About Work_ (Bloomington: Indiana University Folklore Institute,
1993).There is also material in Kenneth Allsop's _Hard Traveling_ (Hoddard and
Stoughton, 1967; Penguin, 1971); George Milburn's _Hobo's Hornbook_ (no
citation handy).Most of what has been written about the IWW is second hand, and
unreliable.  It also tends to center on the Western Federation of Miners
(an IWW affiliate) and on the martyred Joe Hill.  The significance of the
Wobblies in California, for example, is virtually unknown elsewhere --
despite the fact that literally dozens were convicted of murder after a
deputy was killed in Hopland during an IWW-led farm labor protest.  At the
other extreme, Steve Ross, a USC historian, has documented the fact that
many of the extras in the first movies made in Southern California were
itinerant Wobblies, drawn to the warmer climes in winter months.Similarly, the importance of the IWW in the northwestern woods cannot be
underestimated.A clear-eyed, and not flattering take on the IWW is in J. Anthony Lukas'
recent _Big Trouble_ (NY: Simon and Schuster, 1997).All but the last have material on singing in the ranks of labor.Ed Cray

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Stamler <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 1:08 AM
Subject: IWW and musicHi Jody:The IWW weren't unique in using music as an organizing tool; it had been
part of the Populist movement of the 1890s. Probably the best-known piece to
come out of that time was "The Farmer is the Man", but there were certainly
others. Check out John Greenway's "American Folk Songs of Protest" (I
*think* I'm remembering the title correctly).Subsequent movements that used music as an organizing and rallying tool
notably include the industrial labor-organization drives of the 1930s,
particularly those involving coal miners; the efforts to organize southern
tenant farmers beginning in the 1930s and continuing for several decades
thereafter; and of course the southern civil rights movement, beginning with
the Montgomery bus boycott of 1955. Music from the latter can be found on
the Smithsonian/Folkways set "Voices from the Civil Rights Movement" and the
disc "Sing for Freedom".You might want to get in touch with people from the Highlander Center
(formerly the Highlander Folk School); they were involved in all three
movements in various ways. Some discussion of the tenant farmers' movement
can be found in the biography of Lee Hays, "Lonesome Traveller".Hope this helps a little.Peace.
Paul

It seems to me that music-as-protest derives from rhyme-as-protest.  I was thinking of John Ball (circa 1381) - "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?"  The rhyme has a lot more power then a more complexly worded argument.  Although there have also been any number of political poems, which were also perhaps sung,  in the centuries prior to ours, John Ball's rhyme is the predecessor of themes later sounded by the IWW and others.

The same phenomenon can be seen in the activities of KISZ, the youth
wing of the old Hungarian Socialist Workers Party (there is a party of
the same name today, but it is not the same party). They organized
everything in the name of the party, because the party was where there
were funds, but in actual fact they were young people with a penchant
for organization and music. An event like a jazz festival might bring in
thousands of jazz enthusiasts and two new signed up members of the
party. Many of the young organizers of fifteen years ago are now not
only older, but selling insurance policies and working for advertising
questionnaire agencies...Andy

Dear everyone,I doubt if any of you have visited my Simply English website in the last
fortnight, but if you have by chance gone to the visitor's book and seen
a rather tasteless political slogan, please do not think that it refers
to the political inclinations of either myself or my fellow-musician.
Luckily it has now been deleted, and we are thinking of ways to vet
entries to the guestbook before they appear.Andy

>Dear everyone,
>
>I doubt if any of you have visited my Simply English website in the last
>fortnight, but if you have by chance gone to the visitor's book and seen
>a rather tasteless political slogan, please do not think that it refers
>to the political inclinations of either myself or my fellow-musician.
>Luckily it has now been deleted, and we are thinking of ways to vet
>entries to the guestbook before they appear.
>
>Andy

Sounds like Kilroy Was Here. Or was it Conrad?(oops, sorry about the last post, me finger slipped)JR>Dear everyone,
>
>I doubt if any of you have visited my Simply English website in the last
>fortnight, but if you have by chance gone to the visitor's book and seen
>a rather tasteless political slogan, please do not think that it refers
>to the political inclinations of either myself or my fellow-musician.
>Luckily it has now been deleted, and we are thinking of ways to vet
>entries to the guestbook before they appear.
>
>Andy

...John Ball (circa 1381) - "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was
then the gentleman?"....I'm simple-minded.  What does the above mean?  Does "delve" refer to
digging and "span" to spinning?
--
john garst    [unmask]

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, John Garst wrote:> ...John Ball (circa 1381) - "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was
> then the gentleman?"....
>
> I'm simple-minded.  What does the above mean?  Does "delve" refer to
> digging and "span" to spinning?Yes, indeed.  But, symbolically, those were typical male & female
acts, respectively.---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  What's _done_ we partly may compute,  :||
||:  But know not what's _resisted_.       :||

If my reference to John Ball was too obscure, I apologize.  Here's a brief bio I dug out elsewhere on the net (and slightly edited):            Ball, John, d. 1381, English priest and social reformer. He was one of the instigators of the Peasant's Revolt of 1381. He was an itinerant for many years, advocating               ecclesiastical poverty and social equality.  Excommunicated in 1376, he was in prison at Maidstone when the rebels released him in 1381. After the dispersal of the rebels, Ball was captured at Coventry. He was taken to St. Albans, where he was hanged, drawn, and quartered. He is perhaps best remembered for              giving currency to the couplet "When Adam delved and Eve span/Who was then the gentleman?" William Morris wrote one of his works on utopian socialism under the title The Dream of John Ball.Lew Becker

Ed Cray wrote:There is material on the IWW singing tradition in Lori Elaine Tayloer,
"Joe Hill Incorporated: We Own Our Past," in Jeff Ferrell, "The
Brotherhood of Timber Workers and the Culture of Conflict" and in Sam
Richards, "The Joe Hill Legend in Britain," all in Archie Green, ed.,
_Songs About Work_ (Bloomington: Indiana University Folklore Institute,
1993).Has anyone yet mentioned Archie's discussion in _Wobblies, Pile Butts, and
Other Heroes_?JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL  61820-6975
(217) 244-4681
[unmask]

Lewis Becker wrote:
>
> If my reference to John Ball was too obscure, I apologize.  Here's a brief bio I dug out elsewhere on the net (and slightly edited):
>
>
>
> Lew BeckerParson [John] Ball is made to speak the lines at his first appearance in
the play 'Jack Straw', 1593.Bruce Olson
--
Old English, Irish and, Scots: popular songs, tunes, broadside
ballads at my website (no advs-spam, etc)- www.erols.com/olsonw
or click below  <A href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

yup.On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, John Garst wrote:> ...John Ball (circa 1381) - "When Adam delved and Eve span, who was
> then the gentleman?"....
>
> I'm simple-minded.  What does the above mean?  Does "delve" refer to
> digging and "span" to spinning?
> --
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Hi folks:Ummm...this discussion is very interesting, but I believe the student who
began it was primarily asking whether any *other* movements besides the IWW
used song as an organizing tool. I gather he has the IWW itself pretty well
covered.Peace.
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Well, let me mention a book we'll have out in another two or three months,
Joe Glazer's memoir, _Labor's Troubadour_.  Joe tells about singing for
various labor and civil rights endeavors, starting in 1944 as assistant
education director of the former Textile Workers Union of America.  He
transferred to the United Rubber Workers and then joined the USIA in 1961
as a labor specialist.  He retired in 1987, though you wouldn't know it,
since he keeps performing at union meetings and rallies and keeps writing
and recording songs.  These include "The Mill Was Made of Marble"
(probably his best-known piece), "Jellybean Blues," "Automation," "Too Old
to Work, Too Young to Die," and "They've Moved My Job to Georgia (or Was
It Tennessee?)."  He has more than twenty albums out.  At the end of the
book he profiles a number of the younger labor singers and gives some of
their songs (texts) as well, a nice generous gesture.Another non-IWW book that might be of interest in this discussion is
Shelly Romalis's _"Pistol Packin' Mama": Aunt Molly Jackson and the
Politics of Folksong_.JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL  61820-6975
(217) 244-4681
[unmask]On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Paul Stamler wrote:> Hi folks:
>
> Ummm...this discussion is very interesting, but I believe the student who
> began it was primarily asking whether any *other* movements besides the IWW
> used song as an organizing tool. I gather he has the IWW itself pretty well
> covered.
>
> Peace.
> Paul
>

Hi folks:Just a second heads-up: For the first of two membership specials this week,
I will be presenting a tribute to Rounder Records on "No Time To Tarry Here"
this afternoon from 2-4pm central time (1900-2100 GMT). I didn't know this
when I planned the program, but we're just a week short of Rounder's 30th
anniversary, so it's an appropriate time to pay tribute to the label that
ranks with Folkways as an astonishing resource for traditional music and its
offshoots. The program will air on KDHX-St. Louis, 88.1FM; more to the point
for many of you, it will be on the web at:http://www.kdhx.orgEnjoy!Peace.
Paul

Dear all,This is just to let you know that due the renaming of my university my
e-mail has also changed. It is now [unmask] and NOT
[unmask], so please remove the 'j'. Both e-mail addresses will
continue to reach me a little longer, but fairly soon I shall be utterly
j-less.Andy

Does anyone know of a template for File Maker Pro (for the MAC) -- or
any data based MAC program -- that would allow me to enter the name each
CD, Tape or Record, the artist, the country (US, Ireland, Scotland,
England Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc.), and then list each song.
For a very long time I wanted a better way to keep track of the songs in
my collection but designing a template from scratch is beyond my
capabilities.  Thanks for your consideration.
George--
George Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Board on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Carolyn A. and Peter S. Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467
(617) 552-4521
[unmask]

On 10/16/00, George Madaus wrote:>Does anyone know of a template for File Maker Pro (for the MAC) -- or
>any data based MAC program -- that would allow me to enter the name each
>CD, Tape or Record, the artist, the country (US, Ireland, Scotland,
>England Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc.), and then list each song.
>For a very long time I wanted a better way to keep track of the songs in
>my collection but designing a template from scratch is beyond my
>capabilities.  Thanks for your consideration.
>GeorgeYou need to specify a bit more. What do you want to do with this
thing? Do you want to be able to find all versions of, say,
"Barbara Allen" -- even if it's called "In Scarlet Town"? Or
is it enough to be able to search for the title on the recording?If the latter, I can make you a template (for FileMaker 3.0, but
I assume it will convert) in a couple of minutes.There are commercial databases around for this sort of thing, and
also shareware versions (in the $10 range, as I recall), but I
doubt they're worth it. Unless you need something fancy. In which
case they probably aren't *right* for what you need.Alternately I could tell you how to set up a text file for use with the
Ballad Index software. That way, you'd be able to do more complex
searches, assuming you can live with the user interface.
--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

George - e-mail me at [unmask], and we can get together and
I'll whip off something for you in Filemaker 4.1.  I do these for our
FSSGB (Folk Song Society of Greater Boston) library listings, and it
will only take a few minutes for a basic setup.  It's possible that by
doing it this way, you'll be able to take advantage of our listings as
we catalog our library and others.  And maybe you'd like to join our project...?-Don Duncan
 Cambridge, MA

Dear RobertThanks for the reply. I won't get as complex as searching under alternative
names. What I have done is rate (subjectively) alternative version of a song
like Leave Her Johnny Leave  Her so I would like to be able to find all
version under that name across my collection and look at the rating. Further
I try to roughly classify song by genre e.g. songs of Mortality, navy
(construction), shanty, forebitter, coal mining, war, women's songs etc.. It
would of course be nice to have a filed that would be for alternative names
for the same song e.g., St. James Infirmary but that is just a wish.  I am
afraid of share ware or very specific software because of the possibility of
them being incompatible with new version of the system (I had this happen
with to me when I invested effort in a Hyper Card format only to find the
new system really didn't support this). Some one else suggested a soft ware
program for Windows called MySoftware which sounds great but again will it
work with System xx for the MAC?  I am leery about that.So I guess I am looking for something I hope will be ok for the MAC in the
future and lets me sort by Artist, country and song name rating and genre.I appreciate any help you can give me on this. All the best
George"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:> On 10/16/00, George Madaus wrote:
>
> >Does anyone know of a template for File Maker Pro (for the MAC) -- or
> >any data based MAC program -- that would allow me to enter the name each
> >CD, Tape or Record, the artist, the country (US, Ireland, Scotland,
> >England Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc.), and then list each song.
> >For a very long time I wanted a better way to keep track of the songs in
> >my collection but designing a template from scratch is beyond my
> >capabilities.  Thanks for your consideration.
> >George
>
> You need to specify a bit more. What do you want to do with this
> thing? Do you want to be able to find all versions of, say,
> "Barbara Allen" -- even if it's called "In Scarlet Town"? Or
> is it enough to be able to search for the title on the recording?
>
> If the latter, I can make you a template (for FileMaker 3.0, but
> I assume it will convert) in a couple of minutes.
>
> There are commercial databases around for this sort of thing, and
> also shareware versions (in the $10 range, as I recall), but I
> doubt they're worth it. Unless you need something fancy. In which
> case they probably aren't *right* for what you need.
>
> Alternately I could tell you how to set up a text file for use with the
> Ballad Index software. That way, you'd be able to do more complex
> searches, assuming you can live with the user interface.
> --
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 2095 Delaware Avenue
> Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
> 651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html--
George F. Madaus
Boisi Professor of Education and Public Policy
Senior Research Fellow
National Commission on Educational Testing and Public Policy
Center for the Study of Testing Evaluation and Educational Policy
Lynch School of Education
Boston College
Chestnut Hill MA 02494
[unmask]
617. 552.4521
617 552 8649 FAX

I don't know of any MAC software that will doe what you want, but I'd
strongly suggest that you try to find a database with full text search
capabilities; this makes life much simpler when you decide to change your
search requirements halfway down the road.If yoyu'll settle for a PC, I can give you (legally) a nice program that
will do what you want, and a great deal more.

Lisa and Eavesdroppers:I would suggest that you instead subscribe to ballad-l.  Their interests
are catholic, they do not flame, and the members are rich with all sorts
of information.While they purportedly focus on ballads, in fact, they range widely.Ed
On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 [unmask] wrote:> Hi everyone.  My name is Lisa Fishbein. I have a masters degree in music, and
> did my master's thesis on the music of the IWW.  Since we all have shared
> interests,  music history and the labor movement, I thought we could set up a
> mass mailings of discussions on related topics.  I now have you all in my
> e-mail address book under the heading IWW and Music.  Politics and music is
> such an appealing area of study, and I thought it may be nice, from time to
> time, if we all share perspectives.  Is this idea agreeable?
> Lisa Fishbein
>

Hi folks:Sorry to cross-post this, but I've got an obscure one. The title may
possibly "Rambling Rover"; it includes the line (possibly in the chorus)
"There are old men over ninety who have never yet kissed a girl". Anyone out
there recognize this? (Digital Tradition and the Traditional Ballad Index
both came up with nothing.)Peace.
Paul

On 10/17/00, Paul Stamler wrote:>Hi folks:
>
>Sorry to cross-post this, but I've got an obscure one. The title may
>possibly "Rambling Rover"; it includes the line (possibly in the chorus)
>"There are old men over ninety who have never yet kissed a girl". Anyone out
>there recognize this? (Digital Tradition and the Traditional Ballad Index
>both came up with nothing.)It's not a traditional song; Andy M. Stewart of Silly Wizard wrote it.
It's in his songbook, and on at least two Silly Wizard recordings.Chorus runs something likeOh there's sober men in plenty,
And drunkards barely twenty,
There are men of over ninety
Who have never yet kissed a girl,
But gie me the ramblin' rover
Frae Orkney down to Dover
We will roam the country over
And together we'll face the world.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Hi Paul!I think this is a traditional Irish pub song called Ramblin' Rover (I've got a
friend who does is on a regular basis as part of an Irish set.)  I can't
remember all of the words, but this line is part of the chorus.  I'm sure
someone will come in with the whole thing, but here's what I remember of the
chorus:There are <??> aplenty
And <??> barely twenty
There are old men over ninety who have never yet kissed a girl.
So give me the Ramblin' Rover
From Cockney down to Dover
We'll roam the county over
And together we'll face the world.-Dell----------------
I haven't lost my mind - it's backed up on disk somewhere!
----------------
GaFilk - THE Georgia Filk Convention - January 5-7, 2001
http://www.gafilk.org____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/webmail

Folks:I seek a book, or reference to be precise.  I lost it in a welter of web
pages turning before my eyes.The book is a (recently) published diary of a Revolutionary War seamen or
officer, captured by the British, and clapped in a prison hulk in NY
harbor.Does anyone know of the book, the title, the author, something?  It
apparently contains song texts of various songs current in the 1775-1781
era, including risque or bawdy texts.Ed

I thought list members might be interested in knowing that Dan Patterson's
new book, "A Tree Accurst: Bobby McMillon and Stories of Frankie Silver"
has just come out on UNC Press.  I went to a talk he gave this afternoon
about it, and it was very interesting.  I haven't read the book yet, but a
quick skim suggests that it talks about the 1831 murder itself, the trial
and execution of Frankie, the ballad, the legend cycle, and Bobby McMillon,
the traditional ballad singer and storyteller from the same community in
Western North Carolina.  Here's a URL:
http://uncpress.unc.edu/FMPro?-DB=pubtest.fmp&-Format=detail.html&-RecID=126
44288&-Script=visited&-Find(In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that Dan was my
thesis director and that I transcribed a lot of the video footage that
became the documentary film by Tom Davenport that led to this book.  But no
financial involvement.)Cheers,
Bruce
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce E. Baker
Chapel Hill, NC
[unmask]
http://members.tripod.com/~Bruce_E_Baker

Hi folks:Thanks to all for help in finding "Ramblin' Rover". I have the lyrics, and
have forwarded them to the enquiring friend.Peace.
Paul