On 7/2/00, John Roberts wrote:>There is a CD-Recordable FAQ at:
>
>http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/
>
>I too am interested in answers to Ed's questions, but I am not at all
>computer-literate, (I use a Mac). On that side, it seems my bundled
>software (Toast) needs an $80 upgrade to Toast DeLuxe do do any
>simple editing to a sound file I record through the computer's audio
>input - I am told that the shareware SoundSculptor will also do the
>job. But currently I'm still collecting information, so I haven't
>tried anything in this direction yet. Toast DeLuxe apparently has a
>"clean-up" routine that works fairly well on soundfiles created from
>LP; though it's not "professional quality" it does a reasonable job
>of removing clicks and so forth. (That's just what I've heard). Any
>Mac people out there?
>
>John Roberts.I'm a Mac person, too, though I haven't actually *done* this
process yet. (Haven't found the right cable combination, and
am being very careful about it. :-)I've been reading the magazines, though, and also been careful
about my versions of Toast. :-) FWIW, the upgrade you need isn't
really Toast Pro; it's Toast 4.0. That comes with CD Spin Doctor
(the program for separating tracks on CDs), which was not included
in Toast 3.0 or earlier. It also has some sound editing capabilities,
though if you want to do something fancy, you'll need more.The question really is one of how much you're willing to pay to
fix the tracks, and how much time you're willing to spend.Someone really ought to sell an all-in-one solution for this
(high-quality sound board, cables, and software) -- but I haven't
heard of any such thing.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Here it is folks An Artcar Anthem! (lyrics below for all to use!) Enjoy!
to get the wonderous midi (fun) go here:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5863/artcaranthem.html
(this is fun go to the page and click on the midi link!)
this is the link for the midi but may not work from here...
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5863/carbox.midLITTLE     PlAIN      CARS
An Artcar Anthem!  Little Plain Cars          Adapted  from Malvina Reynolds “Little Houses”          Little plain cars on the car lots,
          Little plain cars  made of  status quo-a-stuff
          Little plain cars on the high-a-ways,
          Little plain cars all the same,
          There's a black one and a brown one
          And a blue one and a red one
          And they're all made out of status quo-a-stuff
          And they all look just the same.          And the people in the plain cars
          All went to the university
          Where they were put in plain cars
          And they came out all the same
          And there's doctors and lawyers
          And street rod-od-ers
          And they're all made out of status quo-a-stuff
          And they all look just the same.          And they all play on the golf course
          And drink their hand crafted-beer
          And they all have pretty children
          And the children go to school,
          And the children go to summer camp
          And then to the university
          Where they are all  put in plain cars
          And they drive out all the same.          And the boys go into business
          And marry and raise a family
          Drivein  plain cars made of status quo-a-stuff
          And they all look just the same,
          There's a green one and a pink one
          And a blue one and a yellow one
          And they're all made out of status quo-a-stuff
          And they all look just the same.          But the one child  he’s an ar-tist
          And knows that his freedom’s real
          Tired of plain cars made of status quo-a-stuff
          That all look just the same,
          Now there’s glued ones and there are painted ones
          And a carved one and a magnet one
          And they’re all made out of  joy and smiles
          And they all are all the rage!          (alt last verse or add on - And they all the world will change!)ABC NotationT:Little Plain Cars a.k.a. Little Boxes
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=100
C:adapted from tune by Malvina Reynolds
K:C
G1/2A/2|G2E2G3/2A/2|G2E2G3/2G/2|c2c2c3/2d/2|
edccc3/2A/2|G2G2G3/2A/2|F2F2F3/2G/2|E2E2E3/2F/2|
D4G3/2A/2|G2E2G3/2A/2|G2E2G3/2G/2|c2c2c3/2d/2|
e3/2d/2c2c3/2A/2|G2G2G3/2A/2|FFFFF3/2G/2|
E2E2D3/2D/2|C4|e3/2d/2c2c3/2A/2|G2G2G3/2A/2|FFFFF3/2G/2|
E2E2D3/2D/2|C4||Words  adapted by Conrad Bladey
And there aint no copyright down here!
Ask only for credit when all others want cash!

<<Okay, here's the situation.  I have about 350 LPs, vintage 1954-1985,
including a number of the Riverside and Prestige folk recordings edited by
Kenny Goldstein.  I want to transfer at least the classical recordings to
CD. Transfer of the folk is dependent upon whether I want to lose the
notes.  (The Folkways notes, of course, are separate booklets, already
safely filed.)
Sound quality on the classical recordings is fair to excellent, and I do
not think I will have to remove scratches or "enhance" the warmth,
etc.  At age 67, I don't hear as well as I used to anyway.
I have a good turntable, arm and needle, and a pre-amp to boost the signal
from the cartridge.  Obviously, I have a computer.  My sound card is a
32-bit generic from Taiwan that works.
What equipment do I need, and what brands/models would you recommend?>>Two routes you can go. One is to get a decent DAT recorder (Sony's are okay,
with decent if not screamingly great converters) and a sound card with a
digital interface. This has the advantage of giving you input level controls
and a recorder you can use for other purposes as well as giving you a
straight 16-bit signal without needing to be dithered. The digital output of
the DAT recorder would feed the digital in of the sound card, and vice
versa.The alternative, simpler and more direct, would be a CardDeluxe sound card
from Digital Audio Labs. Very high quality despite living inside a computer
case (nasty electrical environment for audio). It's 24 bits, so you'd need
to dither the signal down to 16 bits for printing onto a CD (truncating the
data causes very audible distortion). About $300 for the card, street price
with careful shopping.The Cadillac route would be to buy an Apogee Rosetta converter for about a
grand, plus a digital-in sound card. The sound quality on this unit is
fantastic, but I'm not sure it's worth the extra cash if you're not a
studio.You'll also need a CD burner; I've had decent luck with the Yamahas. And
software; Adaptec Easy-CD seems to be the standard, but I've found it to be
pretty buggy. Last year PC World ran a comparison article between several
brands of CD-burning software; if you could look it up, that would be
useful. You also could use some descratching software; you'd be surprised
how much cleaner even good-sounding discs can get with some *light*
descratching. I use DC-ART software from Diamond Cut, which is clunky but
does a fair job. There's much better stuff out there from Sound Forge and
Sek'd, but they both cost a lot more. I don't suggest the fancier denoising
stuff; except for CEDAR, which is thousands of dollars, these programs
damage the audio more than I can stand, and I'd prefer to live with the
hiss. The low-cut filter and notch filter built into DC-ART can be useful
for some of those Ken Goldstein recordings, which tend to have hum (notch
filter) or rumble (low-cut, aka high-pass).Finally, liner notes -- you can make hybrid discs, audio plus data, and scan
(or type -- urghh) the notes into your computer as text, then store the text
on the same disc as the music. Awkward, but doable in theory (I've never
actually done this, so can't speak from experience).Peace.
Paul

Bob Waltz wrote:>I've been reading the magazines, though, and also been careful
>about my versions of Toast. :-) FWIW, the upgrade you need isn't
>really Toast Pro; it's Toast 4.0. That comes with CD Spin Doctor
>(the program for separating tracks on CDs), which was not included
>in Toast 3.0 or earlier. It also has some sound editing capabilities,
>though if you want to do something fancy, you'll need more.Bob,I bought a Yamaha burner about 3 weeks ago. It came bundled with
Toast 4.0.1.1, which does _not_ include Spin Doctor. To get the
latter you need Toast 4 De Luxe (yes I suppose nominally they're both
Toast 4.0, but there's a big difference). From the Adaptec webpage:What's the difference between Toast 4 Deluxe and Toast 4 Standard?
Standard is an OEM (bundled) version. It doesn't have many of the
advanced features that Toast Deluxe has such as DAO (Disc-at-Once)
support, MP3, Liquid Audio, and more advance formats, nor does it
have the CD Spin Doctor or Photo Relay applications.The De Luxe version is around $80 street and there's no upgrade path.
I felt a little gypped as the bundled PC software does seem to have
Spin Doctor's capabilities.Peter Berryman recommended SoundSculptor to me ($30 shareware, it
needs to be licensecd to enable Save) to do soundfile editing.John.

> I bought a Yamaha burner about 3 weeks ago. It came bundled with
> Toast 4.0.1.1, which does _not_ include Spin Doctor. To get the
> latter you need Toast 4 De Luxe (yes I suppose nominally they're both
> Toast 4.0, but there's a big difference).Something odd here, John.  A housemate who purchased a G3 with Pro Tools
bought Toast 4.0 (4.0.2?), and upgraded it to 4.1 because his burner
wasn't supported.  Both came with Audio Extractor and Spin Doctor.  I
wonder if you got Toast Lite?-Don Duncan

Hi folks:Most of you probably know about this, but just in case... a good portion of
the Max Hunter collection of folk songs of the Ozark region has been put on
line. including lyrics and (mostly) tune transcriptions, plus RealAudio and
AIFF files of the field recordings, and MIDI files of the tunes that are
transcribed. Searchable by singer's name, song name or catalog number. Not
everything in the collection is up yet, but it's already a treasure trove.
It's at:http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/MaxHunter/index.htmlPeace.
Paul

Thanks, Paul, for that information. This is a valuable site to have
bookmarked.Lorne Brown
The Ballad Project
TorontoPaul Stamler wrote:
>
> Hi folks:
>
> Most of you probably know about this, but just in case... a good portion of
> the Max Hunter collection of folk songs of the Ozark region has been put on
> line. including lyrics and (mostly) tune transcriptions, plus RealAudio and
> AIFF files of the field recordings, and MIDI files of the tunes that are
> transcribed. Searchable by singer's name, song name or catalog number. Not
> everything in the collection is up yet, but it's already a treasure trove.
> It's at:
>
> http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/MaxHunter/index.html
>
> Peace.
> Paul

So we're off on the 17th for a couple of weeks in the islands.  Seemed like
a good idea.  Now I'm concerned I won't find any folksong there and I won't
have anything to do with my time.I'm bringing the Sony Walkman Pro (WMD3) of course but seriously doubt I'll
get to use it.Abrahams was kind enough to reply but had no suggestions.The single reference I find in my own stuff to St Thomas is obscure.. On the
_Unfortunate Rake_ record "Bright Summer Morning" was collected by "Van Dam
and T. Combs" there in 1953.  But I find no reference or any publication for
a Van Dam or a Van Dam Combs at OCLC.Any suggestions re printed matter?
Better (but forlornly) any suggestions re contact points?Thank you.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
        Boycott South Carolina! - http://www.naacp.org/SCEconomic2.html
               What is the sound of ONE side compromising?

On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:31:44 -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:>the Max Hunter collection of folk songs of the Ozark region has been put on
>line. including lyrics and (mostly) tune transcriptions, plus RealAudio and but it's already a treasure trove.
>
>http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/MaxHunter/index.html
>
And it is good.  I wasn't aware of Hunter but I'm instantly intrigued.  At
the top there (#3) is "A Lensman, A Tinsman, A Tinker, A Tailor."  Maybe
it's common but I've never before seen a version with verse one the common
Scottish but the tune, chorus & second verse from the common US versions.Great!-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
        Boycott South Carolina! - http://www.naacp.org/SCEconomic2.html
               What is the sound of ONE side compromising?

One never knows from whence vital entries for the Happy! file will spring.
Hopefully you caught the very important literary award given Gary Dahl, as
reported by Reuters in today's paper.  It led to the following Happy! entry:Edward George Earle Bulwer-Lytton Lytton (of Knebworth), 1st Baron, born
5/25/1803 (d1/18/1873) and who wrote _Last Days of Pompeii_.  Of far more
importance, he is the eponym for the annual (from 1982) San Jose State U.
"Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest" (for really bad writing; entry deadline is
the traditional US date for creative writing, April 15) to honor his _Paul
Clifford_ which begins "It was a dark and stormy night."
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/english/bulwer.htmLytton's ancestral estate at Knebworth was used by Tim Burton as the setting
for "stately Wayne Manor" in the movie "Batman."As of October 1999, the exact phrase "dark and stormy" occurs in 11 songs at
Digital Tradition:BAGCOACH      On a dark and stormy night as the
BARFTBOY      the night was dark and stormy, and the moon
DRNKHELL      It was a dark and stormy night, I saw
FTHFULSL      'Twas on a dark and stormy night The snow
FLYDUTCH      'Twas on a dark and stormy night well southward
GUYREED       do remember one dark and stormy night The rain
EVRYINCH      of woe One dark and stormy night. He was
FTHSAILR      Twas on a dark and stormy night, the snow
PRSHSNOW      It's on a dark and stormy night, the snow
WRKHURON      On a dark and stormy night When orders
ROYALPLM      On a dark and stormy night The rainand this throws into wild disarray and confusion the whole conceptual-
ization of bad writing and the ballad.  Monstrous questions are raised.Is pure bathos more acceptable as song than as "legitimate" writing?
Is bathos _always_ to be taken as a joke?  (Even in Temperance songs.)
Do any of these songs predate _Paul Clifford_?
And/or, where did the dread phrase arise?
Etc.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
        Boycott South Carolina! - http://www.naacp.org/SCEconomic2.html
               What is the sound of ONE side compromising?

Abby,I haven't looked at each song closely, but just about all of the ones
you mention are late 19th / early 20th C sentimental ballads, disaster
ballads, or songs written at that time as caricatures of "folksongs"
(i.e. Jack Was Every Inch a Sailor -- which started life as a show tune
around the turn of the century).  My suspicion is that they were
primarily the output of songmills, Tin Pan Alley or its precursors.  If
so, that particular commercial environment is probably more responsible
for the "bad" writing, than the ballad form per se.  It does raise the
question, though, of where does "formulaic" end, and trite and
hackneyed begin?One of the things that struck me about " it was a dark and stormy
night," is that folk sea-disaster ballads from the same period are
commonly detailed, as ballads go, in their depiction of vessels in
storms: they often include details of wind direction and strength, wave
height, sometimes cloud formations, course headings, rigging
adjustments made in preparation for severe weather, and so on.
Granted, this tends to be executed prosaically, but that's a lesser sin
than excess.Bill Ellis takes up the question of "bathos" in his article on "The
Blind Girl" (JAF 91, 1978).  He argued that such sentimental and, to
us, excessively written ballads had a genuine effect on Victorian and
Edwardian audiences.  That would also appear to be the case from
William Roy Mackenzie's descriptions of ballad singers in Nova Scotia.
Perhaps it was the weak end of the Romantic emphasis on emotion and
high drama, a poor man's "storm and stress," albeit a century later.But then again, when it comes right down to it, aren't the opening bars
of "The Ride of the Valkyries" just an aural equivalent of "It was a
dark and stormy night" : )Cheers
Jamie

Dear All,
For those of us who enjoy a tune as much as a lyric, you
might like to note the following convention.
Apologies for any cross posting.
Best wishes,
IanNorth Atlantic Fiddle Convention
Crossing Boundaries
25 - 29 July 2001
University of Aberdeen, ScotlandCrossing Boundaries is devoted to traditional
fiddlers and fiddle music from countries around
the northern seas, combining an international
conference with performance events and workshops,
as well as opportunities for informal sessions.The North East of Scotland, famous for its
fiddle tradition, is the setting for this event,
organised by the Elphinstone Institute in
conjunction with other local, national, and
international arts and cultural
organisations: SCaT (Scottish Culture and Traditions),
and the Lemon Tree in Aberdeen; Aberdeenshire Arts;
the Irish Centre for World Music, University of Limerick;
the Department of Ethnology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden.The convention will focus on the way the fiddle,
fiddle music, and styles of playing cross boundaries
of all kinds - geographical, political and
personal - creating new styles and fresh musical insights.The conference will explore the past and future
of traditional fiddling in social, ethnological, and musical
contexts, with keynote contributions.  Themes include:
transmission, performance, social context, symbolic or
religious function, stylistics, material culture, dance,
supernatural beliefs, folklore, and iconography.If you are interested in attending, contributing,
performing, or offering an academic paper (abstract of
300 words, deadline 1 April 2001), please e-mail or
write to the Elphinstone Institute. (The Institute
may present abstracts of papers for peer review and
anticipates the publication of the proceedings.)Convenors: Ian Russell and Mary Anne AlburgerThe Elphinstone Institute
University of Aberdeen
24 High Street
Aberdeen AB24 3EB
Tel: +44 (0)1224 272996 Fax: +44 (0)1224 272728
Website: www.abdn.ac.uk/Elphinstone/
E-mail:  [unmask]----------------------
Dr Ian Russell, Director
The Elphinstone Institute
University of Aberdeen
24 High Street
Aberdeen
AB24 3EB
Tel: +44 (0)1224 272386
Fax: +44 (0)1224 272728
[unmask]
Website:
www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/

Hey, folks, this is July 14t, and, in addition to being Bastille Day, it's
Woody Guthrie's birthday!        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Marge Steiner wrote:> Hey, folks, this is July 14t, and, in addition to being Bastille Day, it's
> Woody Guthrie's birthday!
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>Had he lived, he would have been 88 years old today.  And probably still
sitting at his portable typewriter, pounding away, margin to margin, all
caps on the same questions of race and class that troubled him before he
lost his voice.Ed

Yes, no doubt.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Ed Cray
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 10:07 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: happy!On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Marge Steiner wrote:> Hey, folks, this is July 14t, and, in addition to being Bastille Day, it's
> Woody Guthrie's birthday!
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>Had he lived, he would have been 88 years old today.  And probably still
sitting at his portable typewriter, pounding away, margin to margin, all
caps on the same questions of race and class that troubled him before he
lost his voice.Ed

Balladeers --I thought about heading this with the subject "Have I Got a Deal
For You," but those of you with spam filters probably wouldn't
like the results. :-)Anyway, folks, a person I work with is retiring and getting rid
of his old folk music books. I've taken some off his hands already
(you can't have them! Back! Back!), but there are a number I already
have. I volunteered/promised to make them available to you folks
first. (I realize that selling books over Ballad-L may be against
policy, but how else are you going to learn about these? As a lousy
compromise, I won't list the prices unless our Esteemed List Mom
permits.)Anyway, here are the books:Roger D. Abrahams & George Foss, _Anglo-American Folksong Style_.
   Paperback, first printing. Binding is in good shape, but the
   contents are heavily underlined; the owner used it to teach
   a folklore class at the University of Minnesota.Richard Chase, _American Folk Tales and Songs_. 1971 Dover
   paperback edition. Some underlining and notes, mostly in
   the folklore rather than the song portion. Binding is in
   good shape except that the cellophane on the cover is
   starting to peel. (I've seen *new* Dover books with that
   problem.)Francis James Child -- you know what. The Bible. _The English
   and Scottish Popular Ballads_. The Dover five-volume set.
   Not sure which printing (they may not even all be the
   same), but they were bought in the Sixties. Completely unmarked,
   as best I can tell. The spines are a bit faded from sun,
   and the pages are just a little brown around the edges for
   the same reason, but the bindings are in good shape.Josiah H. Combs (edited by D. K. Wilgus), _Folk-Songs of the
   Southern United States_. Hardcover. Second printing (1969).
   Appears to be in mint condition; I wish I could keep this
   one and sell my copy. :-)Alan Lomax, _Folk Songs of North America_. Hardcover, no date
  but I'd guess it was printed in the Sixties. Excellent condition
  (I can't find a mark in it) except that the dust jacket is
  rather battered.If anyone is interested, let me know off-list and I'll tell you
what we're going to try to soak you for. :-) Or feel free to
contact me with questions.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On Sat, Jul 15, 2000, Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]> wrote:OK, what do you want for the Child?Gwen Knighton                                    [unmask]_______________________________________________________________________
        And this curve, is your smile
        And this cross, is your heart      (KaTe--The Red Shoes)
        And this line,  is your path
_______________________________________________________________________
                   -*Cyny Telyn* -- /Sing/ the harp-

On Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 12:53:50PM -0400, Gwenzilla wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 15, 2000, Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]> wrote:
>
> OK, what do you want for the Child?        This sounds like either kidnapping or slavery. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 7/15/00, Gwenzilla wrote:>On Sat, Jul 15, 2000, Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]> wrote:
>
>OK, what do you want for the Child?A good home, first and foremost. :-)Just a reminder: Please contact me *off-list*. Don't want to
be exposing our dirty laundry in public. :-) (At least until
Ms. Steiner gives us permission.)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:> Anyway, here are the books:
>
>
>
> Richard Chase, _American Folk Tales and Songs_. 1971 Dover
>    paperback edition. Some underlining and notes, mostly in
>    the folklore rather than the song portion. Binding is in
>    good shape except that the cellophane on the cover is
>    starting to peel. (I've seen *new* Dover books with that
>    problem.)
>
> Francis James Child -- you know what. The Bible. _The English
>    and Scottish Popular Ballads_. The Dover five-volume set.
>    Not sure which printing (they may not even all be the
>    same), but they were bought in the Sixties. Completely unmarked,
>    as best I can tell. The spines are a bit faded from sun,
>    and the pages are just a little brown around the edges for
>    the same reason, but the bindings are in good shape.
>
> Alan Lomax, _Folk Songs of North America_. Hardcover, no date
>   but I'd guess it was printed in the Sixties. Excellent condition
>   (I can't find a mark in it) except that the dust jacket is
>   rather battered.
>
> If anyone is interested, let me know off-list and I'll tell you
> what we're going to try to soak you for. :-) Or feel free to
> contact me with questions.
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."Hello Bob  Can ypou tell me the prices for the above books
Mary Louise Chown

DoN: Don't you dare say *anything* about that subject. :-)Folks, you can stop asking about the Child set; it's sold. I suppose
I should have charged more. :-)The other books are still available.This brings up a real question, though: I've had five requests
for all or part of Child -- and this even though it's a fairly
common book (I've run across three complete sets in my life, and
also seen it in several universities). And that's five requests
just on a weekend!I hate to think how many of us are waiting in line for Laws
or Bronson.We need a way to communicate with each other if things like this
turn up.How would people feel about a Ballad-L book exchange? I'm willing
to administer this (I think. Assuming it's no more than twice as
much work as I think it will be. :-).Here's what I have in mind:Every person submits a list of up to, say, six books you want
most. I'll make up a database keyed by title and person who makes
the request. If someone finds, say, a set of Child in a used
bookstore, I can then put you in contact with those who want
Child.Before you ask, I would not charge for this. All I do is put
people in touch. Up to you to arrange the details of the sale.It would be nice, of course, if people would keep me up to date
when their request lists change, or their e-mail addresses. :-)So:Is this worth doing? It seems like a good idea to me; I'm willing
to let people know when *I* find stuff in a used bookstore. I could
even post lists of "most popular titles" periodically, so you could
be confident about buying those books, knowing that someone will
buy it.Thoughts:How do we decide who gets first crack at books? I'd say "first
in the database, first served" -- but I'm open to suggestions.Also, should we list how much people are willing to pay? Might
save some time.Any other thoughts? This just came to me as I sat there telling
people "Sorry, Child is sold."
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I have done this in the past and it works wonderfully
if you simply use a guestbook....
take out a geocities account and make a guestbook.
folks can add in what is available and then note what is not
available when it finds a home
periodically a summation can be posted
better you can  go to
http://guestworld.tripod.lycos.com/
and get a very good guestbook for free which you can edit
right down to message content.
Every so often delete obsolete entries based upon
responses from sellers.
Seller, donors would have to inform the guestbook when item
was gone...not too hard.
you would remind folk to do so and to provide a means of contact and method of transfer.Create a simple web page explain this and add in the guestbook link.
not hard but does very well. I have a few of these going now.Conrad"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:
>
> DoN: Don't you dare say *anything* about that subject. :-)
>
> Folks, you can stop asking about the Child set; it's sold. I suppose
> I should have charged more. :-)
>
> The other books are still available.
>
> This brings up a real question, though: I've had five requests
> for all or part of Child -- and this even though it's a fairly
> common book (I've run across three complete sets in my life, and
> also seen it in several universities). And that's five requests
> just on a weekend!
>
> I hate to think how many of us are waiting in line for Laws
> or Bronson.
>
> We need a way to communicate with each other if things like this
> turn up.
>
> How would people feel about a Ballad-L book exchange? I'm willing
> to administer this (I think. Assuming it's no more than twice as
> much work as I think it will be. :-).
>
> Here's what I have in mind:
>
> Every person submits a list of up to, say, six books you want
> most. I'll make up a database keyed by title and person who makes
> the request. If someone finds, say, a set of Child in a used
> bookstore, I can then put you in contact with those who want
> Child.
>
> Before you ask, I would not charge for this. All I do is put
> people in touch. Up to you to arrange the details of the sale.
>
> It would be nice, of course, if people would keep me up to date
> when their request lists change, or their e-mail addresses. :-)
>
> So:
>
> Is this worth doing? It seems like a good idea to me; I'm willing
> to let people know when *I* find stuff in a used bookstore. I could
> even post lists of "most popular titles" periodically, so you could
> be confident about buying those books, knowing that someone will
> buy it.
>
> Thoughts:
>
> How do we decide who gets first crack at books? I'd say "first
> in the database, first served" -- but I'm open to suggestions.
>
> Also, should we list how much people are willing to pay? Might
> save some time.
>
> Any other thoughts? This just came to me as I sat there telling
> people "Sorry, Child is sold."
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Do You want to know more? Simply send an e.mail to this address-
[unmask]
Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
My ICQ # is  4699667
Instant messenger= lippet
#####################################################

>DoN: Don't you dare say *anything* about that subject. :-)
>
>Folks, you can stop asking about the Child set; it's sold. I suppose
>I should have charged more. :-)
>
>The other books are still available.
>
>This brings up a real question, though: I've had five requests
>for all or part of Child -- and this even though it's a fairly
>common book (I've run across three complete sets in my life, and
>also seen it in several universities). And that's five requests
>just on a weekend!The Dover Child edition is fairly rare these days, sometimes, when
available, running into the hundreds for a set.  Not only is it out of
print, but has been for a long time. What's worse is that in the latter
days of its availability, Dover had not printed as many copies of Volume
Three as they had the other four.
>
>How would people feel about a Ballad-L book exchange? I'm willing
>to administer this (I think. Assuming it's no more than twice as
>much work as I think it will be. :-).Sounds like a reaaly fine idea.>Here's what I have in mind:
>
>Every person submits a list of up to, say, six books you want
>most. I'll make up a database keyed by title and person who makes
>the request. If someone finds, say, a set of Child in a used
>bookstore, I can then put you in contact with those who want
>Child.You might also ask for lists of books that people wabt to sell. I.m sure
there are titles out there that I might like, but if I don't know they
exist...Perhaps the simplest way to do this would be to send out periodically a
list of books wanted and books for sale. Each list has the name and e-mail
of the buyer/seller and specific price and/or price range.  This shifts the
responsibility to the buyer and seller and quickly gets you out of the
middle. Maybe this could also include vinyl as well as paper.If this works out without too much  hassle, a swappers list might be a good
addition. In the case of out-of-print or otherwise unobtainable material, a
copy swap might prove feasible. For example, I'd love to swap a photocopy
of Part One of Terry's "The Shanty Book" for a copy of Part Two.I'm looking forward to the first list. This is indeed a most noble
undertaking  - Tom>Before you ask, I would not charge for this. All I do is put
>people in touch. Up to you to arrange the details of the sale.
>
>It would be nice, of course, if people would keep me up to date
>when their request lists change, or their e-mail addresses. :-)
>
>So:
>
>Is this worth doing? It seems like a good idea to me; I'm willing
>to let people know when *I* find stuff in a used bookstore. I could
>even post lists of "most popular titles" periodically, so you could
>be confident about buying those books, knowing that someone will
>buy it.
>
>Thoughts:
>
>How do we decide who gets first crack at books? I'd say "first
>in the database, first served" -- but I'm open to suggestions.
>
>Also, should we list how much people are willing to pay? Might
>save some time.
>
>Any other thoughts? This just came to me as I sat there telling
>people "Sorry, Child is sold."
>--
>Bob Waltz
>[unmask]
>
>"The one thing we learn from history --
>   is that no one ever learns from history."

"Child, Francis James Ed English and Scottish Popular Ballads; 5 Vols.
Dover, 1965 Trade Paperback. Good/No Jacket. Book # 13936
Price: US$ 500.00
Presented by BLACK OAK BOOKS, ABAA, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A."john garst    [unmask]

On 7/16/00, John Garst wrote:>"Child, Francis James Ed English and Scottish Popular Ballads; 5 Vols.
>Dover, 1965 Trade Paperback. Good/No Jacket. Book # 13936
>Price: US$ 500.00
>Presented by BLACK OAK BOOKS, ABAA, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A."When I was pricing the various books this fellow had for sale, I found
a few like that -- e.g. a copy of Gomme for $125 and a copy of
Jackson's book on spirituals for $50. These were on the order of
four times what the other sets cost.Maybe they invoked Child's ghost and had him sign it. :-)But it's an argument for some sort of database to tell us what these
things *ought* to cost. It was tough, sitting there researching
how much to charge *myself* for a copy of Laws. :-)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

I got my used Child collection from a used book dealer for about $250 four
years ago.  Alas, I cannot remember where I got it.  I think I found an ad in
the classified of _Texas Monthly_

Not a ballad, but certainly in the group's realm of expertise?In Thomas Hardy's "The Trumpet Major" the soldiers sing (omitting his diacriticals):When lawyers strive to heal a breach,
And parsons practise what they preach;
Then Boney he'll come pouncing down,
And march his men on London Town!Rollicum rorum, tollollorum,
Rollicum rorum, tollollay.(etc. - 4 verses offered, a total of 14 referred to!)Was this Hardy's own creation, or (and?) is there a melody anyone knows of?~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, Arizona

Quoth herself:
> I got my used Child collection from a used book dealer for about $250 four
> years ago.  Alas, I cannot remember where I got it.  I think I found an ad in
> the classified of _Texas Monthly_I recall finding a set of the Dover reprints in the local Pegasus book store
some time ago and posting its existence there, probably on this very list.
Price was very reasonable, about $20 per volume (up from the original cover
price, something like $5.95). I sure hope someone followed up on that one and
phoned the store. -- aloha, Lani<||>            Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Avenue, Richmond CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

And last year I found a Dover set of Child in a small bookstore in Camden,
Maine -- memory serving.  The dealer, whose name I posted on ballad-l,
wanted like $20 a volume.  Not a bad price considering that Wildmon had a
set of the original edition for $1000 earlier this year.Ed

> I recall finding a set of the Dover reprints in the local Pegasus book store
> some time ago and posting its existence there, probably on this very list.
> Price was very reasonable, about $20 per volume (up from the original cover
> price, something like $5.95). I sure hope someone followed up on that one and
> phoned the store. -- aloha, LaniActually, the original price on the covers of my set is $2.75.  I got them about
30 years ago and it cost all the cash I had at the time.  I've gotten more than my
money's worth from them.Discussions like this make me feel unusually wealthy.Margaret

Lani and Ed, I don't think you need worry about anyone passing up such
information posted to the list.  I responded within something like 8
hours of Ed's posting (which was, as I recall, $50 for the set), and was
the fifth respondent.  The books had already been sold, of course.  I
was the sixth inquiry regarding Bob's set, and they were of course gone.
 We keep trying, though.While we're in the eat-your-heart-out mode, the set I'm currently using
is borrowed from my housemate Sandy (of Sandy's Music here in
Cambridge).  A friend of his found the complete set, in excellent
unmarked condition, at a yard sale, and bought it ridiculously cheap
figuring Sandy would want it - which of course was correct.Meanwhile, and perhaps because this is Child country, we here in the
Boston area continue to have access to Child and numerous other
interesting ballad collections and commentary because of the local
libraries.  There are 5 complete Dover collections (and one partial),
one Cooper Square set and apparently one original edition
(non-circulating) in our local suburban network.  This doesn't count a
couple of sets of Child's earlier collection (1857-58, reprinted 1880)
and about 18 copies of the Student's Cambridge Edition.-Don Duncan

To all the folks who are asking about Child:Please, folks, it's SOLD.I am keeping a waiting list, but it's already nearly a dozen names
long. I've stopped adding names to it. So I'm not even going to answer
any more.The *other* books are still available. Speaking as someone who
has all of them, Combs/Wilgus, in particular, is a good, useful volume
to have around. Lots of good versions of a wide variety of ballads
in that book....--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Hi, folks.  I would ask that book sales and exchanges be conducted off-list.
if you want to announce the availability of a book on the list, that's fine,
but, please ask those interested to contact you privately.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

On Sun, 16 Jul 2000 [unmask] wrote:> I got my used Child collection from a used book dealer for about
> $250 four years ago.  Alas, I cannot remember where I got it.  I
> think I found an ad in the classified of _Texas Monthly_I bought my Dover edition in 1982, when it was still in print & cost
$7.50 per volume.  Evidently I should have sunk my savings in spare
copies; it has outperformed the stock market.  Having confessed that I
own it, I suppose I had better insure it.Seriously, it is scandalous that such a work should _ever_ have been
out of print.  So much for the publishing business.  But, hot damn!
it's in the public domain.  Would it be that big a job, these days,
for someone to put the whole thing on the Web?---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Look on yonder, see that eagle rise.                :||
||:  He was born on land, but he sure enjoys the skies.  :||

Okay, which one of you got to Tim Fout in Louisville before I did, and
got the Dover set for $21.50? I was the SECOND caller, dammit! Nice
e-pistle form the lad this morning, however, calling for contributions
to the "educate the dumb bookseller fund." Seems to be a genuinely nice
fellow. Ain't you ashamed to have taken advantage of him?
        Sandy Paton
        Folk-Legacy
<http://www.folklegacy.com>

On 7/17/00, Joseph C Fineman wrote:>On Sun, 16 Jul 2000 [unmask] wrote:
>
>> I got my used Child collection from a used book dealer for about
>> $250 four years ago.  Alas, I cannot remember where I got it.  I
>> think I found an ad in the classified of _Texas Monthly_
>
>I bought my Dover edition in 1982, when it was still in print & cost
>$7.50 per volume.  Evidently I should have sunk my savings in spare
>copies; it has outperformed the stock market.  Having confessed that I
>own it, I suppose I had better insure it.
>
>Seriously, it is scandalous that such a work should _ever_ have been
>out of print.  So much for the publishing business.  But, hot damn!
>it's in the public domain.  Would it be that big a job, these days,
>for someone to put the whole thing on the Web?There are several problems, of different sorts.One is the problem of space/data representation. Child often draws
analogies to non-English ballads. Some are in languages which do
not use the Roman alphabet. Some of these cannot be represented in
normal HTML. The alternatives are to present the files as scans
or as Acrobat files. Both get LARGE.If you do scan for conversion to HTML, you also have to be able
to scan those funny characters.And who proofreads these hundreds of thousands of words? You
can't spellcheck it; the spelling is funny anyway.And you're talking about scanning some thousands of pages.And finally, there is the care and feeding of the books themselves.
What this discussion has shown is that my copy of Child is even
more precious than I thought. :-) Am I going to risk their spines
by running thousands of pages through my scanner?And a final thought: I've been trying for four years to get
people to do books for the Ballad Index. Response has been
pretty poor -- and that's a much easier task than doing Child!
Where are the volunteers?What might be possible is a collective project: If someone has a
web server with a lot of available space, we might be able to do
this as a group -- with each person doing, say, ten ballads, and
the administrator posting the results.But, quite frankly, I wonder about the utility even of this. Child
is, despite everything, easy to find compared to Bronson or
Coffin/Renwick. In ten years of looking, I've had my chances at
three complete sets of Child and I believe some individual volumes.
Plus there are several copies in local libraries. To the best of my
knowledge, there is only one library copy of Bronson in the
Twin Cities, and it's not available for general use. The only
volume I've managed to acquire is Volume I.And I've never so much as seen Coffin/Renwick.If we're going to do an "online Child," we shouldn't stop
there. I realize that Bronson and Coffin/Renwick are still under
copyright. But we should at least add summaries of that information.And for that matter, *because* Child is relatively available,
might it not be better to work on other rare books? I realize
that Laws is still under copyright, too -- but what about Sharp?
Dean? Rickaby? All those early regional collections? Those strike
me as a greater need. (Of course, let it be said that I regard
Child as overrated. Child, for all his brilliance, did not
really understand what was and was not traditional!)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

>And I've never so much as seen Coffin/Renwick.Are you talking about The British Traditional Ballad in North America ? I
have one I paid only $20 for... perhaps the dealer I bought it from needs
that seminar for dumb book dealers... but I do too, for a didn't know it was
that rare.Susan Tichy
(fan of that great old murder ballad "Long Lurking")__________________________________________________________________
Hungry Gulch Books & Trails * PO Box 357, Westcliffe, CO 81252 USA
719-783-2244 * [unmask] * http://www.hungrygulch.com
New & Used Books * Book Searches * Special Orders * Maps * Discount Music
Publishers of _The Colorado Sangre de Cristo: A Complete Trail Guide_

On 7/17/00, susan tichy wrote:> >And I've never so much as seen Coffin/Renwick.
>
>Are you talking about The British Traditional Ballad in North America ? I
>have one I paid only $20 for... perhaps the dealer I bought it from needs
>that seminar for dumb book dealers... but I do too, for a didn't know it was
>that rare.The fact that a book is rare doesn't mean that the price *has* to be
high. :-) Chances are, if I ever find a copy at a local bookstore,
it will be priced around there. Doesn't make it more or less important.BTW -- let's *not* have that seminar for dumb book dealers. It's
hard enough paying for the books *with* dumb dealers. :-)--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On Sun, Jul 16, 2000 at 01:42:32PM -0500, Conrad Bladey ***Peasant**** wrote:
>
> I have done this in the past and it works wonderfully
> if you simply use a guestbook....
> take out a geocities account and make a guestbook.
> folks can add in what is available and then note what is not
> available when it finds a home
> periodically a summation can be posted
> better you can  go to
> http://guestworld.tripod.lycos.com/
> and get a very good guestbook for free which you can edit
> right down to message content.
> Every so often delete obsolete entries based upon
> responses from sellers.
> Seller, donors would have to inform the guestbook when item
> was gone...not too hard.
> you would remind folk to do so and to provide a means of contact and method of transfer.
>
> Create a simple web page explain this and add in the guestbook link.
> not hard but does very well. I have a few of these going now.
>
> ConradI don't think that this is a good idea for a couple of reasons. The
first is spam. Any publicly available web page will have every email
address on it harvested by robots run by the companies peddling those
CDs of "10 million addresses". Maybe you like spam but most people
don't. Second, some folks may not want their want list, price limits and
transactions be that public. Also the guestbook software on most servers
was not really designed for this sort of application. They are
vulnerable to abuses and some of them are not very secure.I think that Bob's idea is a good one and is better managed by problem not
directly on the Net.                        Just my 2 cents ( or maybe 4).
                                        Dolores--
Dolores Nichols                 |
D&D Data                        | Voice :       (703) 938-4564
Disclaimer: from here - None    | Email:     <[unmask]>
        --- .sig? ----- .what?  Who me?

Quoth Our Fearless Leader:
> >Seriously, it is scandalous that such a work should _ever_ have been
> >out of print.  So much for the publishing business.  But, hot damn!
> >it's in the public domain.  Would it be that big a job, these days,
> >for someone to put the whole thing on the Web?        I'm sure I have already mentioned David and Chris Bland in England,
who are good honest (but *not* dumb) booksellers -- they have entered the modern
business age with a fax number, though no e-mail yet. Their address:
20 Belvoir Gardens, Skircoat Green, Halifax, Yorks. HX3 ONF, U,K. Phone
01-422-351-212 (as of several years ago).  You can submit a wish list.  I did,
and got copies of Peter Kennedy's book as well as Brunnings and, I believe, one
of the Lawses. They issue a printed list in folklore, used to be annual, but I
don't  remember seeing one lately.
        Lillian Krelove of Legacy Books used to be another such, but she's
sold the business to Sing Out! and they seem to have other fish to pursue.
        Good luck! -- Aloha, Lani<||>            Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Avenue, Richmond CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

>Quoth Our Fearless Leader:
>> >Seriously, it is scandalous that such a work should _ever_ have been
>> >out of print.  So much for the publishing business.  But, hot damn!
>> >it's in the public domain.  Would it be that big a job, these days,
>> >for someone to put the whole thing on the Web?Another good source for ballads and folk music is Ben Koenig who owns a
book store in Plainfield VT. You can reach him at
[unmask] Happy questing  - Tom>
>        I'm sure I have already mentioned David and Chris Bland in England,
>who are good honest (but *not* dumb) booksellers -- they have entered the
>modern
>business age with a fax number, though no e-mail yet. Their address:
>20 Belvoir Gardens, Skircoat Green, Halifax, Yorks. HX3 ONF, U,K. Phone
>01-422-351-212 (as of several years ago).  You can submit a wish list.  I did,
>and got copies of Peter Kennedy's book as well as Brunnings and, I
>believe, one
>of the Lawses. They issue a printed list in folklore, used to be annual, but I
>don't  remember seeing one lately.
>        Lillian Krelove of Legacy Books used to be another such, but she's
>sold the business to Sing Out! and they seem to have other fish to pursue.
>        Good luck! -- Aloha, Lani
>
><||>            Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
><||> 5621 Sierra Avenue, Richmond CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

In a message dated 18/07/2000  09:23:20, Lani Herrmann wrote:<<        I'm sure I have already mentioned David and Chris Bland in England,
 who are good honest (but *not* dumb) booksellers -- they have entered the
modern
 business age with a fax number, though no e-mail yet. Their address:
 20 Belvoir Gardens, Skircoat Green, Halifax, Yorks. HX3 ONF, U,K. Phone
 01-422-351-212 (as of several years ago).  You can submit a wish list.  I
did,
 and got copies of Peter Kennedy's book as well as Brunnings and, I believe,
one
 of the Lawses. They issue a printed list in folklore, used to be annual, but
I
 don't  remember seeing one lately. >>I'm sorry to have to tell you that when I last stayed with David and Chris,
in April last year, they had just issued their last list. There was too
little folklore on the market to make that anything but occasional and when
Universities and colleges ceased the study of classics, the supply of books
in that area being the staple support of the Bland enterprise, the
continuance of the business became impossible.For those who knew them personally, I'm glad to say they are all well and
that Chris has, despite the end of the business, retired from teaching. When
we last spoke, there was talk of a sideline in furniture resoration.John Moulden

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: Fwd: Folk Heritage Recordings in Crisis (fwd)>* Preservation: The living traditions of the nation are captured in a
>multitude of media formats, and each medium presents new and unique
>problems in terms of shelf life and stability.  There is no consensus on
>the advisability of one form over another.  No matter the medium, our
>field
>tapes are disintegrating rapidly.  There is an immediate need to develop
>national guidelines for preservation of folklife collections in a range
>of
>formats.<<I have no right to comment, since I'm not a professional in this
field, but....*This* one is obvious. CD-R! You can get a CD burner for $300, in
these days, and a good A-to-D converter board for $200. Then it's
just a matter of playing the results into the computer, and burning
the CD.>>Um, it's not always quite that simple. First off, professional-level A/D
converters, with genuinely clean sound and accurate clocks, are more like
$1,000, and given that the copies may well become the only surviving
version, it behooves us to make them as well as possible.Second, playing the recordings isn't always as straightforward as it might
seem. Tape formats vary tremendously, requiring different machines for
playback, and the playback machine needs to be tweaked for each tape (head
azimuth, primarily). Tape also, unfortunately, has deteriorated with age,
and many of the tapes from the late 1960s through the early 1980s suffer
from a malady known a hydrolyzation. The binders used in these tapes were
hygroscopic; they absorbed water from the air, turning into long-chain, very
sticky molecules that cause the tape to stick/slip across the tape heads,
creating a hideous screech. Tape in this unfortunate condition needs to be
baked, ideally in a convection oven for several hours, then copied as
quickly as possible. In short, copying tapes into a computer is a highly
labor-intensive process.Other recordings, on 78rpm aluminum discs and commercial shellac discs, also
require a great deal of care and specialized equipment for transfer --
high-quality, low-rumble, low-flutter turntables, good cartridges with
stylus points of the proper radius (varies from disc to disc), high-quality
preamplifiers with adjustable playback equalization to compensate for the
lack of standardization before 1955 or so, etc. etc. etc..<<There is a small cost for the CDs -- particularly since archives
should be made from high-quality CD-R disks (from what I understand,
gold die is by far the most stable, and you need to be sure that
each disk has enough of it and is properly assembled).>>Yes, gold-dye CDs are definitely the most stable -- but for archival use,
they should still be stored in dark, temperature- and humidity-controlled
conditions. And they should be made in triplicate, stored in different
places (see "earthquake").<<There is the question of AIFF or MP3 format -- but this should
be obvious, too: The archived versions should be AIFF. MP3 is
for net distribution, if it comes to that.>>Agreed on the last point -- archival recordings should be completely
unprocessed, non-bit-reduced, etc.. But I have some doubt about AIFF -- most
of the world being Wintel, .wav formats are more the norm. And there's
something to be said for storing the data in music-CD format, simply because
there are literally billions of players out there, and the odds of being
stuck with a recording and having no way to play it are much less (see
"Elcassette", "DCC" and other lost formats). The down side of this is that
you're limited to a 16-bit word length on standard CDs, and the audible
difference between 16 bits and 20 bits, properly done, is not trivial, even
on older recordings.I've written a couple of articles on this subject, "Making It Last, Parts 1
& 2"; they appeared in _Recording_ magazine a few months ago. If anyone's
interested, go to _Recording_'s website, www.recordingmag.com , and look in
the "issue search" database under the title, or under Stamler.<<What is *truly* needed is a national project to get all these song
versions organized. This is essentially what the Ballad Index was
intended to do. Unfortunately, participation in the project has
been rather abysmal. (It might help if we had someone other than
me as editor. I don't have the skills, I don't have the contacts,
and I don't have the financial base. :-) If we could organize all
the songs under such a database, and include all the versions in
various collections, we'd truly have something.>>I think that's a separate issue; I've always seen the Ballad Index as a
different sort of effort, the scope of which was more limited (we don't, for
example, index most strictly-instrumental pieces, and these constitute a
goodly chunk of field recordings). I agree that the larger project is also
worth doing, but don't really see the Ballad Index as conflicting with that,
or as being a smaller, failed effort along those lines. I see it, instead,
as an excellent work in progress, with a well-delimited mission.Peace.
Paul

And here I thought this thread was dead. :-)Be it noted that I'm not in serious disagreement with Paul here;
he's supplying technical information that I don't have. At best,
I'm trying to answer his objections.On 7/1/00, Paul Stamler wrote:>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
>To: <[unmask]>
>Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2000 9:35 AM
>Subject: Re: Fwd: Folk Heritage Recordings in Crisis (fwd)
>
>
> >* Preservation: The living traditions of the nation are captured in a
> >multitude of media formats, and each medium presents new and unique
> >problems in terms of shelf life and stability.  There is no consensus on
> >the advisability of one form over another.  No matter the medium, our
> >field
> >tapes are disintegrating rapidly.  There is an immediate need to develop
> >national guidelines for preservation of folklife collections in a range
> >of
> >formats.
>
><<I have no right to comment, since I'm not a professional in this
>field, but....
>
>*This* one is obvious. CD-R! You can get a CD burner for $300, in
>these days, and a good A-to-D converter board for $200. Then it's
>just a matter of playing the results into the computer, and burning
>the CD.>>
>
>Um, it's not always quite that simple. First off, professional-level A/D
>converters, with genuinely clean sound and accurate clocks, are more like
>$1,000, and given that the copies may well become the only surviving
>version, it behooves us to make them as well as possible.Fair enough. But the two basic observations remain: It's a digital
format, so once you copy it, you can make copies which do not decay
when reproduced. And it's an up-front cost, with the media cheap
thereafter.I do think there needs to be a regular schedule of reproduction:
Every five years, you make a new copy. Or, better yet, three new
copies. But that's still cheaper than most forms of analog copying.As an aside: Given the state of some of the originals, I wonder
if fancy A-to-D conversions gain us much. :-)[ ... ]><<There is a small cost for the CDs -- particularly since archives
>should be made from high-quality CD-R disks (from what I understand,
>gold die is by far the most stable, and you need to be sure that
>each disk has enough of it and is properly assembled).>>
>
>Yes, gold-dye CDs are definitely the most stable -- but for archival use,
>they should still be stored in dark, temperature- and humidity-controlled
>conditions. And they should be made in triplicate, stored in different
>places (see "earthquake").Of course, those comments apply to *anything*. In all seriousness,
CDs are *better* in this department, because you can make archive
and "active" copies, with no loss of quality.><<There is the question of AIFF or MP3 format -- but this should
>be obvious, too: The archived versions should be AIFF. MP3 is
>for net distribution, if it comes to that.>>
>
>Agreed on the last point -- archival recordings should be completely
>unprocessed, non-bit-reduced, etc.. But I have some doubt about AIFF -- most
>of the world being Wintel, .wav formats are more the norm.No, most of the world is CD players. :-) (As you note below.) I'm
not arguing for a particular computer format; I'm arguing for whatever
they use on CDs.>And there's
>something to be said for storing the data in music-CD format,Which was what I meant. The documentation I have says that AIFF *is*
music-CD format. If I'm wrong (and you would know better than I),
then substitute the correct term. :-)[ ... ]><<What is *truly* needed is a national project to get all these song
>versions organized. This is essentially what the Ballad Index was
>intended to do. Unfortunately, participation in the project has
>been rather abysmal. (It might help if we had someone other than
>me as editor. I don't have the skills, I don't have the contacts,
>and I don't have the financial base. :-) If we could organize all
>the songs under such a database, and include all the versions in
>various collections, we'd truly have something.>>
>
>I think that's a separate issue;It *is* a separate issue from archiving. :-) But there really ought
to be a way to coordinate which recordings go with which songs.>I've always seen the Ballad Index as a
>different sort of effort, the scope of which was more limited (we don't, for
>example, index most strictly-instrumental pieces, and these constitute a
>goodly chunk of field recordings). I agree that the larger project is also
>worth doing, but don't really see the Ballad Index as conflicting with that,
>or as being a smaller, failed effort along those lines. I see it, instead,
>as an excellent work in progress, with a well-delimited mission.The point I'm trying to make is simply that it's a universal database,
intended to include all traditional materials. Not just Child ballads
or Laws ballads or something -- we have too many restricted databases
of that sort already.I'm not saying the Ballad Index has failed, either. It's simply
a demonstration of a problem we have: Any such cataloging effort
requires two things: A central curator *and* people to participate.
If either fails, you don't get what you need. We need that central
curator. And I'm not sure where we find someone for the job. The
one thing one can say for the Ballad Index is that it actually
exists. :-) The relative effort of expanding it is less than starting
from scratch. (Maybe. Depends on the data we want, of course.)Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

There are 35 communities named "Jericho" in 22 states of the USA.  An
additional 3 communities in 2 additional states are named "Jerico."  There
are 14 named "Thomasville" in 12 states.  8 states have at least one each
of "Jericho" (or "Jerico") and "Thomasville."  All of these 8 are east of
the Mississippi River or have it as their eastern border.  4 of the 8 are
southern states, 2 are border states, and 2 are purely Yankee.  Perhaps
Bad Lee Brown blew Little Sadie down in one of these "Thomasville"s.I've had no luck so far searching legal records for what I've considered to be
the most likely states.  Of course, these only give appeals, and if a judgment
is not appealed there will be no record in the accessible legal literature.I'm familiar with Tom Ashley's "Little Sadie," and I know about a few other
versions, which I haven't yet heard.  We have "Lee Brown," "Sadie,"
"Jericho," and "Thomasville."Does anyone know of any other clues to the
historical basis of this ballad in the texts of other versions?Any procedural tips?john garst    [unmask]

In most cases that need urgent attention today, the question of fidelity
is more or less moot---the amount of sound degradation one might encounter
from ANY of the A/D conversions (including just playing an phonograph
recording or reel-to-reel tape into a cheap CD burner) is negligible when
you consider the quality ofreproduction that was there in the first place
in the period 1930-1960 or so.

On Sat, Jul 01, 2000 at 01:53:52PM -0500, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> And here I thought this thread was dead. :-)
>
> Be it noted that I'm not in serious disagreement with Paul here;
> he's supplying technical information that I don't have. At best,
> I'm trying to answer his objections.
>
> On 7/1/00, Paul Stamler wrote:
> >From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>        [ ... ]> >*This* one is obvious. CD-R! You can get a CD burner for $300, in
> >these days, and a good A-to-D converter board for $200. Then it's
> >just a matter of playing the results into the computer, and burning
> >the CD.>>
> >
> >Um, it's not always quite that simple. First off, professional-level A/D
> >converters, with genuinely clean sound and accurate clocks, are more like
> >$1,000, and given that the copies may well become the only surviving
> >version, it behooves us to make them as well as possible.
>
> Fair enough. But the two basic observations remain: It's a digital
> format, so once you copy it, you can make copies which do not decay
> when reproduced. And it's an up-front cost, with the media cheap
> thereafter.        Hmm ... the copies are *not* always perfect.  The format is
designed so, if a sample is corrupted, it is replaced, either with the
preceding or following sample, or somewhat better, it is replaced by an
average between the preceding and following samples.  This is not
enough to be detected, but over many generations of copies, it adds up,
so you *will* see slow degradation of the recordings through
generations, even with digital.> I do think there needs to be a regular schedule of reproduction:
> Every five years, you make a new copy. Or, better yet, three new
> copies. But that's still cheaper than most forms of analog copying.        See above.  There is something to be said about scheduling the
copies near the maximum safe time.        What I would suggest, here, is to make a set of copies, then
when the next time interval passes, make copies of both the original and
the several years younger copy.  Continue this until the number of
errors detected on reading the first one rises above something like
twenty to one hundred over the whole length of the recording.        What would be a nice touch would be to modify the format to
record checksums every 1024 samples or so, so you could tell which
recordings were clean where, and combine the two to make a more perfect
copy than the ones used as input.> As an aside: Given the state of some of the originals, I wonder
> if fancy A-to-D conversions gain us much. :-)        That depends on the age of the recording in question, the
technology used, and the storage conditions.        [ ... ]> >Yes, gold-dye CDs are definitely the most stable -- but for archival use,
> >they should still be stored in dark, temperature- and humidity-controlled
> >conditions. And they should be made in triplicate, stored in different
> >places (see "earthquake").
>
> Of course, those comments apply to *anything*. In all seriousness,
> CDs are *better* in this department, because you can make archive
> and "active" copies, with no loss of quality.        As above -- not *no* loss of quality, but *lesser* loss of
quality.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Folks:Tara Calishain is a researcher of extraordinary abilities who sends me
sites from time to time.  I haven't seen this one.Ed---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 13:50:04 -0400
From: Tara Calishain <[unmask]>
To: Ed Cray <[unmask]>
Subject: New folk site songs in ogg formatHi Ed,You've probably already seen this but just in case..best,Tara==
39. efolkMusic.com Offers Open-Format Ogg Vorbis Downloads
get 01011904.txtCHAPEL HILL, NC -- (INTERNET WIRE) -- efolkMusic.com is a "filtered" artist
promotion and cd/download distribution site that is rapidly becoming a
premier site for folk, bluegrass, Celtic and roots-rock downloads and cds.
"Our user base is growing primarily because of the high quality of our
music," says Frank. "You don't have to wade thru the muck to find good
music, because that's the only kind we have.
http://www1.internetwire.com/iwire/iwpr?id=11904&cat=te

<<I'm familiar with Tom Ashley's "Little Sadie," and I know about a few
other
versions, which I haven't yet heard.  We have "Lee Brown," "Sadie,"
"Jericho," and "Thomasville."
Does anyone know of any other clues to the
historical basis of this ballad in the texts of other versions?
Any procedural tips?>>Only that, as the Ballad Index reports the ballad's earliest collected date
as 1922, you should look at earlier dates.Peace.
Paul

I think the most likely candidate would be North Carolina.  The version of
the song I'm most familiar with is Tommy Jarrell's, which breaks the
four-line verse in half with repeats, giving it a structure a lot more like
most blues.  As I read the story, the shooting happens in one place, near
Thomasville where the sheriff is from, and Lee Brown flees but is captured
at Jericho and returned to the county seat of the county where the shooting
occurred to stand trial.  William S. Powell's _North Carolina Gazetteer_
says that Jericho is a community in southern Caswell County (there are a
couple others in NC) had a post office from 1905 to 1920.  Thomasville is a
manufacturing town in northern Davidson County, N.C.  To get from
Thomasville to Jericho, you would cross Guilford County (where Greensboro
is) from southwest to northeast.  Why would the sheriff from Thomasville
chase Brown?  I would guess that the shooting happened in Thomasville.
Brown was put on a train to go to the county seat after he was caught in
Jericho, so there must have been a railroad in or fairly near Jericho.  If
you go to the American Memory collection at LOC, they have a bunch of old
railroad maps scanned in, including several for North Carolina.  Looking at
a 1900 map, there's no railroad in most of Caswell County, but from Jericho
(which is near Anderson on modern maps), it would have been about fifteen
miles south to Burlington or Graham which are both on the Southern line
which then goes west through Greensboro and back to Thomasville.Having done some research on ballads involving crimes (are there any
others?) from NC around this time period, I can say it is a huge hassle
since you never quite know without checking whether county records are in
some dusty attic in the county seat or if they found their way to the state
archives in Raleigh.  There is an OPAC for the state archives (I think if
you look up "North Carolina Department of Archives and History" you'll find
your way to it), but it's really, really awful and hard to use.All this also raises the question, if my geographic hunch is right, of why
Lee Brown would have gone to Jericho instead of staying on the Southern
(presuming he went part of the way by train) and getting way out of town.
I would guess that he had relatives in Jericho, probably was from Jericho
and working in Thomasville where he got mixed up with the wrong crowd,
drank too much, carried a pistol, etc. etc.BruceAt 03:43 PM 7/1/00 -0400, you wrote:
>There are 35 communities named "Jericho" in 22 states of the USA.  An
>additional 3 communities in 2 additional states are named "Jerico."  There
>are 14 named "Thomasville" in 12 states.  8 states have at least one each
>of "Jericho" (or "Jerico") and "Thomasville."  All of these 8 are east of
>the Mississippi River or have it as their eastern border.  4 of the 8 are
>southern states, 2 are border states, and 2 are purely Yankee.  Perhaps
>Bad Lee Brown blew Little Sadie down in one of these "Thomasville"s.
>
>I've had no luck so far searching legal records for what I've considered
to be
>the most likely states.  Of course, these only give appeals, and if a
judgment
>is not appealed there will be no record in the accessible legal literature.
>
>I'm familiar with Tom Ashley's "Little Sadie," and I know about a few other
>versions, which I haven't yet heard.  We have "Lee Brown," "Sadie,"
>"Jericho," and "Thomasville."
>
>Does anyone know of any other clues to the
>historical basis of this ballad in the texts of other versions?
>
>Any procedural tips?
>
>john garst    [unmask]
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce E. Baker
Chapel Hill, NC
[unmask]
http://members.tripod.com/~Bruce_E_Baker
SUPPORT DEMOCRACY -- VOTE GREEN:
        http://www.votenader.org

Bob Waltz wrote:<<Fair enough. But the two basic observations remain: It's a digital
format, so once you copy it, you can make copies which do not decay
when reproduced. And it's an up-front cost, with the media cheap
thereafter.>>The latter is certainly true. But as others have pointed out already,
digital copying isn't necessarily perfect, and it's worth noting that
digital doesn't deteriorate -- it crashes. In other words, rather than slow,
steady degradation, the sound is perfect, and then it isn't there at all.On the back side of that, digital recordings, including CDs, are made with a
high degree of redundancy for just this reason; the encoding methods are
designed to make error correction maximally effective. And this is true
error correction, not interpolation: the missing digit is restored exactly.
Minor errors are completely corrected in a proper copy; only the worst
errors are interpolated. And I can tell you that a single-sample error, with
interpolation, is highly unlikely to be audible. I spend a lot of time
drawing the scratches out of musical waveforms, and you'd be surprised how
much you can get away with before a hand-drawn quarter-cycle becomes
audible.<<As an aside: Given the state of some of the originals, I wonder
if fancy A-to-D conversions gain us much. :-) >>Yes. A basic tenet of the (dismal) science of information theory is that a
chain is not as strong as its weakest link; it's *weaker* than its weakest
link. To put it more concretely, distortion in an audio circuit is
cumulative, and the distortion of an already-distorted signal creates far
more havoc. I recently tested a moderately-priced high-quality A/D converter
intended for small-studio use (it's made by Apogee, and short of Sony's new
SACD/DSD process it produces some of the best digital audio I've heard); the
improvement in quality from better analog stages, more linear A/D converter
chips and a far more stable clock was immediately audible on an acoustic 78
I used as a real torture test.<<Which was what I meant. The documentation I have says that AIFF *is*
music-CD format. If I'm wrong (and you would know better than I),
then substitute the correct term. :-) >>Duhhh. Yep, I was still somewhere over the Atlantic on that one. Somehow I
mistook AIFF for the Macintosh audio format, which of course is something
else entirely. More coffee, please, Tanya.Peace.
Paul

Paul:Okay, here's the situation.  I have about 350 LPs, vintage 1954-1985,
including a number of the Riverside and Prestige folk recordings edited by
Kenny Goldstein.  I want to transfer at least the classical recordings to
CD. Transfer of the folk is dependent upon whether I want to lose the
notes.  (The Folkways notes, of course, are separate booklets, already
safely filed.)Sound quality on the classical recordings is fair to excellent, and I do
not think I will have to remove scratches or "enhance" the warmth,
etc.  At age 67, I don't hear as well as I used to anyway.I have a good turntable, arm and needle, and a pre-amp to boost the signal
from the cartridge.  Obviously, I have a computer.  My sound card is a
32-bit generic from Taiwan that works.What equipment do I need, and what brands/models would you recommend?EdP.S.:  Others are welcome to contribute their suggestions.

There is a CD-Recordable FAQ at:http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/I too am interested in answers to Ed's questions, but I am not at all
computer-literate, (I use a Mac). On that side, it seems my bundled
software (Toast) needs an $80 upgrade to Toast DeLuxe do do any
simple editing to a sound file I record through the computer's audio
input - I am told that the shareware SoundSculptor will also do the
job. But currently I'm still collecting information, so I haven't
tried anything in this direction yet. Toast DeLuxe apparently has a
"clean-up" routine that works fairly well on soundfiles created from
LP; though it's not "professional quality" it does a reasonable job
of removing clicks and so forth. (That's just what I've heard). Any
Mac people out there?John Roberts.>Paul:
>
>Okay, here's the situation.  I have about 350 LPs, vintage 1954-1985,
>including a number of the Riverside and Prestige folk recordings edited by
>Kenny Goldstein.  I want to transfer at least the classical recordings to
>CD. Transfer of the folk is dependent upon whether I want to lose the
>notes.  (The Folkways notes, of course, are separate booklets, already
>safely filed.)
>
>Sound quality on the classical recordings is fair to excellent, and I do
>not think I will have to remove scratches or "enhance" the warmth,
>etc.  At age 67, I don't hear as well as I used to anyway.
>
>I have a good turntable, arm and needle, and a pre-amp to boost the signal
>from the cartridge.  Obviously, I have a computer.  My sound card is a
>32-bit generic from Taiwan that works.
>
>What equipment do I need, and what brands/models would you recommend?
>
>Ed
>
>P.S.:  Others are welcome to contribute their suggestions.

The Library of Congress does not appear to have Robert W. Gordon's papers
from his stay in Darien, GA, 1925-28, during which time he did research on
"Delia."  I have found a WWW site that says that the University of Oregon
has some of his papers, occupying 7 feet of shelf space.Does anyone who has seen these papers recall whether or not Gordon's
material from his stay in Darien is there?john garst    [unmask]

On 7/2/00, John Roberts wrote:>There is a CD-Recordable FAQ at:
>
>http://www.fadden.com/cdrfaq/
>
>I too am interested in answers to Ed's questions, but I am not at all
>computer-literate, (I use a Mac). On that side, it seems my bundled
>software (Toast) needs an $80 upgrade to Toast DeLuxe do do any
>simple editing to a sound file I record through the computer's audio
>input - I am told that the shareware SoundSculptor will also do the
>job. But currently I'm still collecting information, so I haven't
>tried anything in this direction yet. Toast DeLuxe apparently has a
>"clean-up" routine that works fairly well on soundfiles created from
>LP; though it's not "professional quality" it does a reasonable job
>of removing clicks and so forth. (That's just what I've heard). Any
>Mac people out there?
>
>John Roberts.I'm a Mac person, too, though I haven't actually *done* this
process yet. (Haven't found the right cable combination, and
am being very careful about it. :-)I've been reading the magazines, though, and also been careful
about my versions of Toast. :-) FWIW, the upgrade you need isn't
really Toast Pro; it's Toast 4.0. That comes with CD Spin Doctor
(the program for separating tracks on CDs), which was not included
in Toast 3.0 or earlier. It also has some sound editing capabilities,
though if you want to do something fancy, you'll need more.The question really is one of how much you're willing to pay to
fix the tracks, and how much time you're willing to spend.Someone really ought to sell an all-in-one solution for this
(high-quality sound board, cables, and software) -- but I haven't
heard of any such thing.
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

Here it is folks An Artcar Anthem! (lyrics below for all to use!) Enjoy!
to get the wonderous midi (fun) go here:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5863/artcaranthem.html
(this is fun go to the page and click on the midi link!)
this is the link for the midi but may not work from here...
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5863/carbox.midLITTLE     PlAIN      CARS
An Artcar Anthem!  Little Plain Cars          Adapted  from Malvina Reynolds “Little Houses”          Little plain cars on the car lots,
          Little plain cars  made of  status quo-a-stuff
          Little plain cars on the high-a-ways,
          Little plain cars all the same,
          There's a black one and a brown one
          And a blue one and a red one
          And they're all made out of status quo-a-stuff
          And they all look just the same.          And the people in the plain cars
          All went to the university
          Where they were put in plain cars
          And they came out all the same
          And there's doctors and lawyers
          And street rod-od-ers
          And they're all made out of status quo-a-stuff
          And they all look just the same.          And they all play on the golf course
          And drink their hand crafted-beer
          And they all have pretty children
          And the children go to school,
          And the children go to summer camp
          And then to the university
          Where they are all  put in plain cars
          And they drive out all the same.          And the boys go into business
          And marry and raise a family
          Drivein  plain cars made of status quo-a-stuff
          And they all look just the same,
          There's a green one and a pink one
          And a blue one and a yellow one
          And they're all made out of status quo-a-stuff
          And they all look just the same.          But the one child  he’s an ar-tist
          And knows that his freedom’s real
          Tired of plain cars made of status quo-a-stuff
          That all look just the same,
          Now there’s glued ones and there are painted ones
          And a carved one and a magnet one
          And they’re all made out of  joy and smiles
          And they all are all the rage!          (alt last verse or add on - And they all the world will change!)ABC NotationT:Little Plain Cars a.k.a. Little Boxes
M:4/4
L:1/4
Q:1/4=100
C:adapted from tune by Malvina Reynolds
K:C
G1/2A/2|G2E2G3/2A/2|G2E2G3/2G/2|c2c2c3/2d/2|
edccc3/2A/2|G2G2G3/2A/2|F2F2F3/2G/2|E2E2E3/2F/2|
D4G3/2A/2|G2E2G3/2A/2|G2E2G3/2G/2|c2c2c3/2d/2|
e3/2d/2c2c3/2A/2|G2G2G3/2A/2|FFFFF3/2G/2|
E2E2D3/2D/2|C4|e3/2d/2c2c3/2A/2|G2G2G3/2A/2|FFFFF3/2G/2|
E2E2D3/2D/2|C4||Words  adapted by Conrad Bladey
And there aint no copyright down here!
Ask only for credit when all others want cash!

<<Okay, here's the situation.  I have about 350 LPs, vintage 1954-1985,
including a number of the Riverside and Prestige folk recordings edited by
Kenny Goldstein.  I want to transfer at least the classical recordings to
CD. Transfer of the folk is dependent upon whether I want to lose the
notes.  (The Folkways notes, of course, are separate booklets, already
safely filed.)
Sound quality on the classical recordings is fair to excellent, and I do
not think I will have to remove scratches or "enhance" the warmth,
etc.  At age 67, I don't hear as well as I used to anyway.
I have a good turntable, arm and needle, and a pre-amp to boost the signal
from the cartridge.  Obviously, I have a computer.  My sound card is a
32-bit generic from Taiwan that works.
What equipment do I need, and what brands/models would you recommend?>>Two routes you can go. One is to get a decent DAT recorder (Sony's are okay,
with decent if not screamingly great converters) and a sound card with a
digital interface. This has the advantage of giving you input level controls
and a recorder you can use for other purposes as well as giving you a
straight 16-bit signal without needing to be dithered. The digital output of
the DAT recorder would feed the digital in of the sound card, and vice
versa.The alternative, simpler and more direct, would be a CardDeluxe sound card
from Digital Audio Labs. Very high quality despite living inside a computer
case (nasty electrical environment for audio). It's 24 bits, so you'd need
to dither the signal down to 16 bits for printing onto a CD (truncating the
data causes very audible distortion). About $300 for the card, street price
with careful shopping.The Cadillac route would be to buy an Apogee Rosetta converter for about a
grand, plus a digital-in sound card. The sound quality on this unit is
fantastic, but I'm not sure it's worth the extra cash if you're not a
studio.You'll also need a CD burner; I've had decent luck with the Yamahas. And
software; Adaptec Easy-CD seems to be the standard, but I've found it to be
pretty buggy. Last year PC World ran a comparison article between several
brands of CD-burning software; if you could look it up, that would be
useful. You also could use some descratching software; you'd be surprised
how much cleaner even good-sounding discs can get with some *light*
descratching. I use DC-ART software from Diamond Cut, which is clunky but
does a fair job. There's much better stuff out there from Sound Forge and
Sek'd, but they both cost a lot more. I don't suggest the fancier denoising
stuff; except for CEDAR, which is thousands of dollars, these programs
damage the audio more than I can stand, and I'd prefer to live with the
hiss. The low-cut filter and notch filter built into DC-ART can be useful
for some of those Ken Goldstein recordings, which tend to have hum (notch
filter) or rumble (low-cut, aka high-pass).Finally, liner notes -- you can make hybrid discs, audio plus data, and scan
(or type -- urghh) the notes into your computer as text, then store the text
on the same disc as the music. Awkward, but doable in theory (I've never
actually done this, so can't speak from experience).Peace.
Paul

Bob Waltz wrote:>I've been reading the magazines, though, and also been careful
>about my versions of Toast. :-) FWIW, the upgrade you need isn't
>really Toast Pro; it's Toast 4.0. That comes with CD Spin Doctor
>(the program for separating tracks on CDs), which was not included
>in Toast 3.0 or earlier. It also has some sound editing capabilities,
>though if you want to do something fancy, you'll need more.Bob,I bought a Yamaha burner about 3 weeks ago. It came bundled with
Toast 4.0.1.1, which does _not_ include Spin Doctor. To get the
latter you need Toast 4 De Luxe (yes I suppose nominally they're both
Toast 4.0, but there's a big difference). From the Adaptec webpage:What's the difference between Toast 4 Deluxe and Toast 4 Standard?
Standard is an OEM (bundled) version. It doesn't have many of the
advanced features that Toast Deluxe has such as DAO (Disc-at-Once)
support, MP3, Liquid Audio, and more advance formats, nor does it
have the CD Spin Doctor or Photo Relay applications.The De Luxe version is around $80 street and there's no upgrade path.
I felt a little gypped as the bundled PC software does seem to have
Spin Doctor's capabilities.Peter Berryman recommended SoundSculptor to me ($30 shareware, it
needs to be licensecd to enable Save) to do soundfile editing.John.

> I bought a Yamaha burner about 3 weeks ago. It came bundled with
> Toast 4.0.1.1, which does _not_ include Spin Doctor. To get the
> latter you need Toast 4 De Luxe (yes I suppose nominally they're both
> Toast 4.0, but there's a big difference).Something odd here, John.  A housemate who purchased a G3 with Pro Tools
bought Toast 4.0 (4.0.2?), and upgraded it to 4.1 because his burner
wasn't supported.  Both came with Audio Extractor and Spin Doctor.  I
wonder if you got Toast Lite?-Don Duncan

Hi folks:Most of you probably know about this, but just in case... a good portion of
the Max Hunter collection of folk songs of the Ozark region has been put on
line. including lyrics and (mostly) tune transcriptions, plus RealAudio and
AIFF files of the field recordings, and MIDI files of the tunes that are
transcribed. Searchable by singer's name, song name or catalog number. Not
everything in the collection is up yet, but it's already a treasure trove.
It's at:http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/MaxHunter/index.htmlPeace.
Paul

Thanks, Paul, for that information. This is a valuable site to have
bookmarked.Lorne Brown
The Ballad Project
TorontoPaul Stamler wrote:
>
> Hi folks:
>
> Most of you probably know about this, but just in case... a good portion of
> the Max Hunter collection of folk songs of the Ozark region has been put on
> line. including lyrics and (mostly) tune transcriptions, plus RealAudio and
> AIFF files of the field recordings, and MIDI files of the tunes that are
> transcribed. Searchable by singer's name, song name or catalog number. Not
> everything in the collection is up yet, but it's already a treasure trove.
> It's at:
>
> http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/MaxHunter/index.html
>
> Peace.
> Paul

So we're off on the 17th for a couple of weeks in the islands.  Seemed like
a good idea.  Now I'm concerned I won't find any folksong there and I won't
have anything to do with my time.I'm bringing the Sony Walkman Pro (WMD3) of course but seriously doubt I'll
get to use it.Abrahams was kind enough to reply but had no suggestions.The single reference I find in my own stuff to St Thomas is obscure.. On the
_Unfortunate Rake_ record "Bright Summer Morning" was collected by "Van Dam
and T. Combs" there in 1953.  But I find no reference or any publication for
a Van Dam or a Van Dam Combs at OCLC.Any suggestions re printed matter?
Better (but forlornly) any suggestions re contact points?Thank you.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
        Boycott South Carolina! - http://www.naacp.org/SCEconomic2.html
               What is the sound of ONE side compromising?

On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 10:31:44 -0500, Paul Stamler wrote:>the Max Hunter collection of folk songs of the Ozark region has been put on
>line. including lyrics and (mostly) tune transcriptions, plus RealAudio and but it's already a treasure trove.
>
>http://www.smsu.edu/folksong/MaxHunter/index.html
>
And it is good.  I wasn't aware of Hunter but I'm instantly intrigued.  At
the top there (#3) is "A Lensman, A Tinsman, A Tinker, A Tailor."  Maybe
it's common but I've never before seen a version with verse one the common
Scottish but the tune, chorus & second verse from the common US versions.Great!-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
        Boycott South Carolina! - http://www.naacp.org/SCEconomic2.html
               What is the sound of ONE side compromising?

One never knows from whence vital entries for the Happy! file will spring.
Hopefully you caught the very important literary award given Gary Dahl, as
reported by Reuters in today's paper.  It led to the following Happy! entry:Edward George Earle Bulwer-Lytton Lytton (of Knebworth), 1st Baron, born
5/25/1803 (d1/18/1873) and who wrote _Last Days of Pompeii_.  Of far more
importance, he is the eponym for the annual (from 1982) San Jose State U.
"Bulwer-Lytton Fiction Contest" (for really bad writing; entry deadline is
the traditional US date for creative writing, April 15) to honor his _Paul
Clifford_ which begins "It was a dark and stormy night."
http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/english/bulwer.htmLytton's ancestral estate at Knebworth was used by Tim Burton as the setting
for "stately Wayne Manor" in the movie "Batman."As of October 1999, the exact phrase "dark and stormy" occurs in 11 songs at
Digital Tradition:BAGCOACH      On a dark and stormy night as the
BARFTBOY      the night was dark and stormy, and the moon
DRNKHELL      It was a dark and stormy night, I saw
FTHFULSL      'Twas on a dark and stormy night The snow
FLYDUTCH      'Twas on a dark and stormy night well southward
GUYREED       do remember one dark and stormy night The rain
EVRYINCH      of woe One dark and stormy night. He was
FTHSAILR      Twas on a dark and stormy night, the snow
PRSHSNOW      It's on a dark and stormy night, the snow
WRKHURON      On a dark and stormy night When orders
ROYALPLM      On a dark and stormy night The rainand this throws into wild disarray and confusion the whole conceptual-
ization of bad writing and the ballad.  Monstrous questions are raised.Is pure bathos more acceptable as song than as "legitimate" writing?
Is bathos _always_ to be taken as a joke?  (Even in Temperance songs.)
Do any of these songs predate _Paul Clifford_?
And/or, where did the dread phrase arise?
Etc.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
                  I am Abby Sale - in Orlando, Florida
        Boycott South Carolina! - http://www.naacp.org/SCEconomic2.html
               What is the sound of ONE side compromising?

Abby,I haven't looked at each song closely, but just about all of the ones
you mention are late 19th / early 20th C sentimental ballads, disaster
ballads, or songs written at that time as caricatures of "folksongs"
(i.e. Jack Was Every Inch a Sailor -- which started life as a show tune
around the turn of the century).  My suspicion is that they were
primarily the output of songmills, Tin Pan Alley or its precursors.  If
so, that particular commercial environment is probably more responsible
for the "bad" writing, than the ballad form per se.  It does raise the
question, though, of where does "formulaic" end, and trite and
hackneyed begin?One of the things that struck me about " it was a dark and stormy
night," is that folk sea-disaster ballads from the same period are
commonly detailed, as ballads go, in their depiction of vessels in
storms: they often include details of wind direction and strength, wave
height, sometimes cloud formations, course headings, rigging
adjustments made in preparation for severe weather, and so on.
Granted, this tends to be executed prosaically, but that's a lesser sin
than excess.Bill Ellis takes up the question of "bathos" in his article on "The
Blind Girl" (JAF 91, 1978).  He argued that such sentimental and, to
us, excessively written ballads had a genuine effect on Victorian and
Edwardian audiences.  That would also appear to be the case from
William Roy Mackenzie's descriptions of ballad singers in Nova Scotia.
Perhaps it was the weak end of the Romantic emphasis on emotion and
high drama, a poor man's "storm and stress," albeit a century later.But then again, when it comes right down to it, aren't the opening bars
of "The Ride of the Valkyries" just an aural equivalent of "It was a
dark and stormy night" : )Cheers
Jamie

Dear All,
For those of us who enjoy a tune as much as a lyric, you
might like to note the following convention.
Apologies for any cross posting.
Best wishes,
IanNorth Atlantic Fiddle Convention
Crossing Boundaries
25 - 29 July 2001
University of Aberdeen, ScotlandCrossing Boundaries is devoted to traditional
fiddlers and fiddle music from countries around
the northern seas, combining an international
conference with performance events and workshops,
as well as opportunities for informal sessions.The North East of Scotland, famous for its
fiddle tradition, is the setting for this event,
organised by the Elphinstone Institute in
conjunction with other local, national, and
international arts and cultural
organisations: SCaT (Scottish Culture and Traditions),
and the Lemon Tree in Aberdeen; Aberdeenshire Arts;
the Irish Centre for World Music, University of Limerick;
the Department of Ethnology, University of Gothenburg, Sweden.The convention will focus on the way the fiddle,
fiddle music, and styles of playing cross boundaries
of all kinds - geographical, political and
personal - creating new styles and fresh musical insights.The conference will explore the past and future
of traditional fiddling in social, ethnological, and musical
contexts, with keynote contributions.  Themes include:
transmission, performance, social context, symbolic or
religious function, stylistics, material culture, dance,
supernatural beliefs, folklore, and iconography.If you are interested in attending, contributing,
performing, or offering an academic paper (abstract of
300 words, deadline 1 April 2001), please e-mail or
write to the Elphinstone Institute. (The Institute
may present abstracts of papers for peer review and
anticipates the publication of the proceedings.)Convenors: Ian Russell and Mary Anne AlburgerThe Elphinstone Institute
University of Aberdeen
24 High Street
Aberdeen AB24 3EB
Tel: +44 (0)1224 272996 Fax: +44 (0)1224 272728
Website: www.abdn.ac.uk/Elphinstone/
E-mail:  [unmask]----------------------
Dr Ian Russell, Director
The Elphinstone Institute
University of Aberdeen
24 High Street
Aberdeen
AB24 3EB
Tel: +44 (0)1224 272386
Fax: +44 (0)1224 272728
[unmask]
Website:
www.abdn.ac.uk/elphinstone/

Hey, folks, this is July 14t, and, in addition to being Bastille Day, it's
Woody Guthrie's birthday!        MargeE-mail: [unmask]

On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Marge Steiner wrote:> Hey, folks, this is July 14t, and, in addition to being Bastille Day, it's
> Woody Guthrie's birthday!
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>Had he lived, he would have been 88 years old today.  And probably still
sitting at his portable typewriter, pounding away, margin to margin, all
caps on the same questions of race and class that troubled him before he
lost his voice.Ed

Yes, no doubt.        MargeE-mail: [unmask]-----Original Message-----
From: Forum for ballad scholars [mailto:[unmask]]On
Behalf Of Ed Cray
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 10:07 AM
To: [unmask]
Subject: Re: happy!On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Marge Steiner wrote:> Hey, folks, this is July 14t, and, in addition to being Bastille Day, it's
> Woody Guthrie's birthday!
>
>         Marge
>
>
> E-mail: [unmask]
>Had he lived, he would have been 88 years old today.  And probably still
sitting at his portable typewriter, pounding away, margin to margin, all
caps on the same questions of race and class that troubled him before he
lost his voice.Ed

Balladeers --I thought about heading this with the subject "Have I Got a Deal
For You," but those of you with spam filters probably wouldn't
like the results. :-)Anyway, folks, a person I work with is retiring and getting rid
of his old folk music books. I've taken some off his hands already
(you can't have them! Back! Back!), but there are a number I already
have. I volunteered/promised to make them available to you folks
first. (I realize that selling books over Ballad-L may be against
policy, but how else are you going to learn about these? As a lousy
compromise, I won't list the prices unless our Esteemed List Mom
permits.)Anyway, here are the books:Roger D. Abrahams & George Foss, _Anglo-American Folksong Style_.
   Paperback, first printing. Binding is in good shape, but the
   contents are heavily underlined; the owner used it to teach
   a folklore class at the University of Minnesota.Richard Chase, _American Folk Tales and Songs_. 1971 Dover
   paperback edition. Some underlining and notes, mostly in
   the folklore rather than the song portion. Binding is in
   good shape except that the cellophane on the cover is
   starting to peel. (I've seen *new* Dover books with that
   problem.)Francis James Child -- you know what. The Bible. _The English
   and Scottish Popular Ballads_. The Dover five-volume set.
   Not sure which printing (they may not even all be the
   same), but they were bought in the Sixties. Completely unmarked,
   as best I can tell. The spines are a bit faded from sun,
   and the pages are just a little brown around the edges for
   the same reason, but the bindings are in good shape.Josiah H. Combs (edited by D. K. Wilgus), _Folk-Songs of the
   Southern United States_. Hardcover. Second printing (1969).
   Appears to be in mint condition; I wish I could keep this
   one and sell my copy. :-)Alan Lomax, _Folk Songs of North America_. Hardcover, no date
  but I'd guess it was printed in the Sixties. Excellent condition
  (I can't find a mark in it) except that the dust jacket is
  rather battered.If anyone is interested, let me know off-list and I'll tell you
what we're going to try to soak you for. :-) Or feel free to
contact me with questions.--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

On Sat, Jul 15, 2000, Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]> wrote:OK, what do you want for the Child?Gwen Knighton                                    [unmask]_______________________________________________________________________
        And this curve, is your smile
        And this cross, is your heart      (KaTe--The Red Shoes)
        And this line,  is your path
_______________________________________________________________________
                   -*Cyny Telyn* -- /Sing/ the harp-

On Sat, Jul 15, 2000 at 12:53:50PM -0400, Gwenzilla wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 15, 2000, Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]> wrote:
>
> OK, what do you want for the Child?        This sounds like either kidnapping or slavery. :-)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 7/15/00, Gwenzilla wrote:>On Sat, Jul 15, 2000, Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]> wrote:
>
>OK, what do you want for the Child?A good home, first and foremost. :-)Just a reminder: Please contact me *off-list*. Don't want to
be exposing our dirty laundry in public. :-) (At least until
Ms. Steiner gives us permission.)--
Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:> Anyway, here are the books:
>
>
>
> Richard Chase, _American Folk Tales and Songs_. 1971 Dover
>    paperback edition. Some underlining and notes, mostly in
>    the folklore rather than the song portion. Binding is in
>    good shape except that the cellophane on the cover is
>    starting to peel. (I've seen *new* Dover books with that
>    problem.)
>
> Francis James Child -- you know what. The Bible. _The English
>    and Scottish Popular Ballads_. The Dover five-volume set.
>    Not sure which printing (they may not even all be the
>    same), but they were bought in the Sixties. Completely unmarked,
>    as best I can tell. The spines are a bit faded from sun,
>    and the pages are just a little brown around the edges for
>    the same reason, but the bindings are in good shape.
>
> Alan Lomax, _Folk Songs of North America_. Hardcover, no date
>   but I'd guess it was printed in the Sixties. Excellent condition
>   (I can't find a mark in it) except that the dust jacket is
>   rather battered.
>
> If anyone is interested, let me know off-list and I'll tell you
> what we're going to try to soak you for. :-) Or feel free to
> contact me with questions.
>
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."Hello Bob  Can ypou tell me the prices for the above books
Mary Louise Chown

DoN: Don't you dare say *anything* about that subject. :-)Folks, you can stop asking about the Child set; it's sold. I suppose
I should have charged more. :-)The other books are still available.This brings up a real question, though: I've had five requests
for all or part of Child -- and this even though it's a fairly
common book (I've run across three complete sets in my life, and
also seen it in several universities). And that's five requests
just on a weekend!I hate to think how many of us are waiting in line for Laws
or Bronson.We need a way to communicate with each other if things like this
turn up.How would people feel about a Ballad-L book exchange? I'm willing
to administer this (I think. Assuming it's no more than twice as
much work as I think it will be. :-).Here's what I have in mind:Every person submits a list of up to, say, six books you want
most. I'll make up a database keyed by title and person who makes
the request. If someone finds, say, a set of Child in a used
bookstore, I can then put you in contact with those who want
Child.Before you ask, I would not charge for this. All I do is put
people in touch. Up to you to arrange the details of the sale.It would be nice, of course, if people would keep me up to date
when their request lists change, or their e-mail addresses. :-)So:Is this worth doing? It seems like a good idea to me; I'm willing
to let people know when *I* find stuff in a used bookstore. I could
even post lists of "most popular titles" periodically, so you could
be confident about buying those books, knowing that someone will
buy it.Thoughts:How do we decide who gets first crack at books? I'd say "first
in the database, first served" -- but I'm open to suggestions.Also, should we list how much people are willing to pay? Might
save some time.Any other thoughts? This just came to me as I sat there telling
people "Sorry, Child is sold."
--
Bob Waltz
[unmask]"The one thing we learn from history --
   is that no one ever learns from history."

I have done this in the past and it works wonderfully
if you simply use a guestbook....
take out a geocities account and make a guestbook.
folks can add in what is available and then note what is not
available when it finds a home
periodically a summation can be posted
better you can  go to
http://guestworld.tripod.lycos.com/
and get a very good guestbook for free which you can edit
right down to message content.
Every so often delete obsolete entries based upon
responses from sellers.
Seller, donors would have to inform the guestbook when item
was gone...not too hard.
you would remind folk to do so and to provide a means of contact and method of transfer.Create a simple web page explain this and add in the guestbook link.
not hard but does very well. I have a few of these going now.Conrad"Robert B. Waltz" wrote:
>
> DoN: Don't you dare say *anything* about that subject. :-)
>
> Folks, you can stop asking about the Child set; it's sold. I suppose
> I should have charged more. :-)
>
> The other books are still available.
>
> This brings up a real question, though: I've had five requests
> for all or part of Child -- and this even though it's a fairly
> common book (I've run across three complete sets in my life, and
> also seen it in several universities). And that's five requests
> just on a weekend!
>
> I hate to think how many of us are waiting in line for Laws
> or Bronson.
>
> We need a way to communicate with each other if things like this
> turn up.
>
> How would people feel about a Ballad-L book exchange? I'm willing
> to administer this (I think. Assuming it's no more than twice as
> much work as I think it will be. :-).
>
> Here's what I have in mind:
>
> Every person submits a list of up to, say, six books you want
> most. I'll make up a database keyed by title and person who makes
> the request. If someone finds, say, a set of Child in a used
> bookstore, I can then put you in contact with those who want
> Child.
>
> Before you ask, I would not charge for this. All I do is put
> people in touch. Up to you to arrange the details of the sale.
>
> It would be nice, of course, if people would keep me up to date
> when their request lists change, or their e-mail addresses. :-)
>
> So:
>
> Is this worth doing? It seems like a good idea to me; I'm willing
> to let people know when *I* find stuff in a used bookstore. I could
> even post lists of "most popular titles" periodically, so you could
> be confident about buying those books, knowing that someone will
> buy it.
>
> Thoughts:
>
> How do we decide who gets first crack at books? I'd say "first
> in the database, first served" -- but I'm open to suggestions.
>
> Also, should we list how much people are willing to pay? Might
> save some time.
>
> Any other thoughts? This just came to me as I sat there telling
> people "Sorry, Child is sold."
> --
> Bob Waltz
> [unmask]
>
> "The one thing we learn from history --
>    is that no one ever learns from history."--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
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