The "Ghost Riders" tune is a perfect fit for "The Wild Colonial Boy"
substituting "Tooral Aye Dee, Tooral Aye Do" for the refrain.  Happy St.
Patrick's Day  -  Tom>On Mon, 13 Mar 2000, Paul J. Stamler wrote:
>
>> Meanwhile, while we're on parodies, there have been innumerable take-
>> offs on "Ghost Riders in the Sky", of which my favorite is "Ghost
>> Chickens in the Sky", which seems to have entered oral tradition at
>> summer camps.
>
>In the 1950s, if one wished to annoy a Marine, one might sing "The
>Marines' Hymn" to that tune, with an appropriate expletive, such as
>"Gung Ho", in place of "Yippie-i-ay".
>
>---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
>||:  First you go to hell, then your body rots, and then you die.  :||

I sent the initial request to Steve Green at the Western Folklife
Center, who pointed out a number of traditional and popular culture
occurances of this theme.  Perhaps semi-literary could be worked in
there as well, since it's hard to overlook the influence of Robert
Service and similar writers in some of the cowboy poetry.I think Steve forwarded his responses directly to Michael Bell, but I
thought others on the list might be interested as well.Cheers
Jamie---- Message 1 ----
Well, really I am supposed to be doing other things today but this is
too
much fun!I feel certain, contrary to the opinion of others, that there is indeed
some
source legend concerning--  perhaps not a ghost herd, though I'm
inclined to
suspect that versions exist involving a ghost herd-- ghost riders in the
sky.We have a very weak reference library on the premises here so I've not
been
able to follow up all the leads I would like, but already this morning
I've
come up with a number of semi-related items that I can share.As you know, alot of what we deal with here is cowboy poetry so the
following are in poem form, though certainly the poets drew from a
larger
body of folklore for their themes and ideas.First, there is a poem by Bruce Kiskaddon (1878-1950) called "Ghost
Canyon
Trail."  It's too long to quote in full here but Kiskaddon's poetry has
been
republished in recent editions that shouldn't be hard to obtain.There are strange tales told of spirits bold,
And the trail to Santa Fe,
There is many a tale of the Chisholm Trail,
And the trail to Laramie
But this is the tale of an obscure trail
That few men travelled on;
Where a spirit was known to ride alone,
Twixt the midnight hour and dawn.Basically the poem (9 stanzas) tells of a cowboy who, while on a lonely
night ride, is accompanied by a ghost rider.  The last two stanzas go:The chilling breezes through the leafless trees,
Gave a dreary dismal moan.
The trooper stayed in the ghastly [ghostly?] shade
And the cowboy rode alone.
Strange tales are heard of what occurred
At that place in years gone by,
Ere that restless soul of the night patrol
Rode under the starlit sky.What the trooper knows, or where he goes,
Nobody has ever found.
But the tale is told of the lone patrol
By the older settlers 'round.
There's a cowboy trim with a face that's grim,
Will never forget that ride
On a winter's night in the pale moonlight,
By the phantom trooper's side.Now, the image of a thundering herd with cowboys whooping and yelling
as the
whole apparitional crew rides across the sky isn't here, but the image
of
two riders, one of them a ghost, indicates the existence of such
legends.Another poem called alternatively "The Glory Trail" or "High Chin Bob"
was
written by Badger Clark (1883-1957).  It's a little farther afield
perhaps
but it describes a buckaroo that ropes a mountain lion and the two
adversaries battling it out are sometimes seen skyward:Way high up [in] the Mogollons
A prospect man did swear
That moon dreams [beams?] melted down his bones
And hoisted up his hair;
A ribby cow-hawse thundered by,
A lion trailed along,
A rider, ga'nt but chin on high
Yelled out a crazy song.This whole scene is reminiscent of something out of the Pecos Bill
legends--
again, as I said, not really connected to the Ghost Riders song, except
in
terms of the skyward spirits motif.One of the most famous cowboy poets, Curley Fletcher (1892-1954), wrote
a
piece called "The Flyin' Outlaw."  It's about a cowboy who decides to
rope
Pegasus and finds himself on a wild ride through the air.Come gather 'round me, cowboys
And listen to me clost
Whilst I tells yuh 'bout a mustang
That must uh been a ghost.Yuh mighta heard of a cayuse
Uh the days they called 'em a steed
Thet spent his time with the eagles
And only come down  fer his feed.He goes by the name of Pegasus
He has himself wings to fly
He eats and drinks in the Bad lands
And ranges around in the sky.The poem is more of a spoof and the final verse warns other cowboys to
"stay
off of horses with wings."Okay, after these dubious offerings, here is the *real* lead!Another of the famous cowboy poets, S. Omar Barker (1894-1995), wrote a
poem
called "The White Mustang."  Like the others just mentioned, it does not
feature a stampeding herd on a stormy night.  It's basically a white
horse
legend--  a horse that men have tried in vain for a hundred years to
rope
and tame, without success.Coveted prize of the men who ride
Never a rope has touched his side.The final stanza is thus:O, Phantom Ghost of heart's desire,
Lusty limbed with soul of fire,
Milk-white Monarch, may you, free,
Race the stars eternally!The edition of Barker's poems that I am looking at was edited by Mason
and
Janice Coggin.  A head note preceeding "The White Mustang" says "the
legend
of the ghost horse of the plains was first written about by Washington
Irving."I really should listen to the song "Ghost Riders in the Sky" because
although I've heard it many times, the actual story has not sunk in.
Surely
it's not connected to the Headless Horseman story that Irving made
famous?At any rate, I suspect there is more to be found on the Ghost Riders
song,
but this is a start in identifying some ghost themes in cowboy lore and
poetry.  Someone might follow up on the Washington Irving citation and
see
what that is.If I can turn up more that specifically seems to tie in with the song,
I'll
pass it on.--- Message 2 ---
Jamie, for what it's worth, the Washington Irving work that first
mentions a
legendary white stallion that became a phantom horse was "A Tour of the
Prairies" relating incidents on Irving's 1832 trip to the Arkansas and
Cimarron Rivers area.I realize that this phantom horse business may be only tangentially
related
to things like cattle drives, wagons, and canoes full of wild French
Canadians--  incidentally I think there's some stuff in the Northeast
Archives about those Canadians in canoes.  Somewhere I've seen a great
painting showing the "cursed canoe" going over a falls or through some
rapids.The Flying Dutchman comes to mind and I wonder--  it wouldn't be too
far a
leap for ship lore to get transferred to "Prairie Schooners" --
Conestoga
wagons and other westward bound conveyances.  The combination of the
vast
landscape, the solitary existence of travellers and riders, the wind,
and
the kind of sun-induced mirages that are common in the west make it
easy to
see how such "flying" legends could emerge.Cheers,Steve

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000, James Moreira wrote:  Perhaps semi-literary could be worked in
> there as well, since it's hard to overlook the influence of Robert
> Service and similar writers in some of the cowboy poetry.Good point! (Who coined the phrase "All sorts of stuff drops into the
folkstream"? Barre Toelken?)

Just testing. I sent a post a couple days ago and it didn't come thru.~ Becky Nankivell, Tucson, Arizona

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

----------
From:   James Moreira[SMTP:[unmask]]
Sent:   Wednesday, March 15, 2000 9:32 AM
To:     [unmask]
Subject:        Re: Ghost Riders in the Sky>I feel certain, contrary to the opinion of others, that there is indeed some
>source legend concerning--  perhaps not a ghost herd, though I'm inclined to
>suspect that versions exist involving a ghost herd-- ghost riders in the sky.Well, there's also "the last herd" / "last round-up" notions one might consider.  Literal & figurative...  Seems cowboys have been bemoaning the passing of their romantic Way of Life ever since the day after they first identified it as a Way of Life.The drives will come from flat and hill
And the cattle bawl while the irons grow chill,
And silent men watch the last herd go
While, notched in the hills, the sun sinks low;
Lord, how will you make amends?Last round-up crew, the last wagon boss.
How can you measure the thing that is lost?
What will live on the grass-grown range?
All will be lost; and what will be gained?
Lord, how will you comfort me?from "The Last Wagon." Words: Bennett Foster, Music: Slim Critchlow 
Sung by Critchlow on _The Crooked Trail to Holllrook_ Arhoolie LP & CD

On Wed, 15 Mar 2000 17:28:36 -0700, Becky Nankivell wrote:>Just testing. I sent a post a couple days ago and it didn't come thru.
>
>~ Becky Nankivell, Tucson, ArizonaThis one came through but you know, you wouldn't get it back to yourself
normally.  The default as far as I see it is that you don't get your own
messages back.To see yur own posts (yes, you really did post that) you'd send a new
request to [unmask]SET BALLAD-L REPRO
END(Including "end" isn't required but it tells listserv to stop processing &
rejecting the rest of your message - your sig, etc. - shortens the process
& reply to you by a lot.)-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
     I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                          Boycott South Carolina!

Perhaps you all can help!
I am completing a collection of Newcastle Songs and can
not
find the notation for
Keep your Feet Still Geordie Hinny
it is close to Maggie Maggie Mae but not quite and
I would have to re - work it considerably....I can use midi or .abc or image of notation.thanks in advance for your kind assistance....A real audio version of the song can be heard here:http://www.wolfcentre.demon.co.uk/audio/feet.ramThanks...Conrad@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
&  Peasant
and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
##############################################################################

In a message dated 3/16/00 12:37:56 AM, [unmask] writes:<< ... anyone know the origin of "Five constipated men in the Bible" ??
***************************
Ask Wally McNow!Sam
La Jolla, CA

Only the verses. But I'd be happy to know!Andy> David Baron wrote:
>
> ... anyone know the origin of "Five constipated men in the Bible" ??

The following is the itinerary for Jim Payne and Fergus O'Byrne, who
will be touring the eastern US later this month.  Fergus is originally
from Ireland and a former member of the group, Ryan's Fancy.  Jim is
probably one of the best contemporary balladeers in Newfoundland, both
from the perspective of presenting older songs and writing new ones.
His song "Empty Nets" has become something of an anthem for fishermen
during the Cod Moratorium.This duo is well worth seeing if you're close by.Cheers
JamieJIM PAYNE & FERGUS O BYRNE
(Newfoundland Folk Duo)
TOUR OF EASTERN UNITED STATES
MARCH/APRIL 2000March 23 7:00 pm
MUSIC BY THE BAY  House Concerts
Assonet, Massachusetts
(45 miles south of Boston , 20 miles east of Providence, 5 miles north
of Fall River) Reservations Required
For information, reservations & directions, e-mail [unmask]
or call Gary at 508-644-2331March 24, 2000, 7:30 pm
WORLD COAST CONCERT SERIES
Mystic Seaport
Jim Payne and Fergus O'Byrne at the Greenmanville Church
Tickets :  $12/advance, $14/door,  (Mystic Seaport Members/staff prices
$10/advance, $12/door) Children under 12, half price.
For tickets and information call 1.888.9SEAPORT.March 27-28,  9:00 am to 2:00  pm
Ethnic Fair for Kids,
Hiddenite Center Educational Complex, Hiddenite, NC,
Designed for 6th grade students of Alexander County
For more information or to attend, contact Lucy Allen at 828-632-6966 or
Lynley Cooper at 704/872-7508March 29-31, 9:30 am to 2:30 pm
Mitchell Community College, Statesville NC
Designed for 6th grade students of Iredell County
For more information or to attend, contact Lucy Allen at 828-632-6966 or
Lynley Cooper at 704/872-7508March 29th, 6:00  7:00 pm
St. Paul's Episcopal Church, Hiddenite, NC
Concert during supper. Call by Tuesday noon to make reservation,
336-667-4231. Supper is $4.00; love offering requested for musiciansMarch 30th, 7:00   9:00 pm
Ethnic Fair Concert
Mitchell Community College Extension Campus, Statesville, NC
Free to the public; donations requested to plan for future Ethnic Fairs
Program includes JimPayne & Fergus O Byrne , Obakunle Akinlana telling
Yoruban tales & music, Hmong Dancers, Lion Dance (Kung Fu)
For more information contact Lucy Allen at 828-632-6966 or Lynley Cooper
at 704/872-7508Sunday, April 2nd - 7:30PM
Old & New Songs of Atlantic Canada
Fergus O'Byrne & Jim Payne
Virginia Beach Central Library, 4100 Virginia Beach Blvd., Virginia
Beach, VA
$11 General Admission - $8 TFFM
Call 626-FOLK for tickets and reservations or email [unmask]X-SMTP-From: [unmask]
X-SMTP-To: [unmask]
Received: from loca.thezone.net (loca.thezone.net [192.75.13.117]) by
voyager.umeres.maine.edu with SMTP id MSGDNMRQ; Tue, 14 Mar 2000
01:44:08 GMT
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Message-ID: <[unmask]>
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 22:16:51 -0330
From: "Fergus O'Byrne" <[unmask]>
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X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Greg Bullough <[unmask]>
CC: "H. Perry Mixter" <[unmask]>, Harris Creek Acoustic
<[unmask]>, Harvey and Carol Green <[unmask]>,
Helene Korolenko <[unmask]>, "[unmask]"
<[unmask]>, "J. Noble" <[unmask]>, James Moreira
<[unmask]>, Jane Lonon <[unmask]>,
Jim Newman <[unmask]>, John <[unmask]>, "John D.
Sneed" <[unmask]>, "Jones, Leon" <[unmask]>, Jos
Mass <[unmask]>, "Kathy A. Silbiger" <[unmask]>,
Kathy Rutz <[unmask]>, Keith Murphy <[unmask]>,
Knoxville Museum of Art <[unmask]>, Kristina Stykos
<[unmask]>, LISA MOCERI <[unmask]>
Subject: Jim payne & Fergus O'Byrne East Coast Tour
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Thanks to those who replied to let me know that my messages were coming
through. Yes, the default is to send messages out into space and never
see them again. One can change the settings to see your own messages
and/or get an acknowlegement of messages sent. (E-mail me if you want to
know how -- it turns out that I did save that handy message you get when
you subscribe telling what all those settings are and how to change
them...)~ Becky Nankivell
Tucson, Arizona

subject:
       RIP: Doug Wallin
   Date:
       Mon, 20 Mar 2000 22:27:20 -0500
   From:
       [unmask]
    To:
       [unmask]
Conrad,
   Could you possibly post this to BALLAD-L?  For some
reason, I seem to be able to receive mail but
not send it to the list (and my computer with all the
helpful information has been down for a few
weeks now).  Thanks so much!
Bruce Baker, Chapel Hill, NCI saw an obituary last week for ballad singer Doug
Wallin of Madison County, North Carolina.  He
died on March 15 at the age of 80.  Doug was the son of
Berzilla Chandler and part of the huge
extended ballad singing families made famous by Olive
Campbell and Cecil Sharp.  There's an
excellent cd of singing by Doug and his younger (and
still, according to the obituary, living)
brother Jack on Smithsonian Folkways.--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
&  Peasant
and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
##############################################################################

One of the great performing ballad singers died last week.
This is from Friday's Asheville Citizen-TimesPUBLISHED 03/17/2000----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
MARTIN DOUGLAS WALLIN
MARSHALL - Martin Douglas "Doug" Wallin, 80, of Crane Branch, died on
Wednesday, March 15, 2000, at a local hospital.
A native and lifelong resident of Marshall, he was the son of Lee and
Berzilla Chandler Walling. "In 1990 he traveled from his home in
Madison County to Washington, D.C., to receive a Heritage Fellowship
from the National Endowment for the Arts. This is the nation's most
prestigious award for traditional artists. The presentation tribute
pointed out that this "quiet and modest" man is widely regarded as
"quite simply the finest living singer of unaccompanied British
ballads in southern Appalachia". Only the year before, the Arts
Council of his home state had honored him with a North Carolina Folk
Heritage Award for his "natural artistry" and "his reverence for the
meaning and heritage of the old songs". For the last decade he has
performed widely with his brother Jack Wallin."He was preceded in death by his sisters, Mona Lee Stroupe, Belva
Cutshaw, Jessie McElrath and Evelyn Wallin; and his brothers, Guy V.
Wallin and Raymond K. Wallin.Surviving is his sister, Bertha McDevitt and her husband Ralph
McDevitt of Asheville; and his brothers, Namman Wallin and his wife
Geneva Wallin of Florida and Jack Wallin of Marshall. He is also
survived by his 14 nieces and nephews.The funeral services will be at 2 p.m. on Sunday at Bowman-Capps
Funeral Home with the Rev. Ralph McDevitt officiating. Interment will
follow at the Wallin Family Cemetery.Friends may call on the family Saturday evening from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.
at the funeral home.Brent Cantrell
Knoxville

Folks:Can anyone help this fellow?Ed
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 19:58:56 EST
From: [unmask]
To: [unmask]
Subject: Roll Me Over In the Clover & She Was Poor but She Was HonestDear Professor Cray,I am looking for the earliest printed or recorded instances of Roll Me Over
In the Clover and She Was Poor but She Was Honest.  Since your 1992 edition
of The Erotic Muse, have you found any earlier references to these two songs?
 I have found  some of Roll Me Over In the Clover in Norman Mailer's Naked
and the Dead, Part 3, Chapter 14, which was published in 1948.                                                           Sincerely,
                                                           Jon Roche'
                                                           [unmask]

On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:34:21 -0800, Ed Cray wrote:>Folks:
>
>Can anyone help this fellow?
>
Well, ok.  But I always mis-read this question as "Can anyone help this
fellow out?"  To which the answer, of course, is "Which way did he come
in?">earliest printed or recorded instances of Roll Me Over
>In the Clover and She Was Poor but She Was Honest.
Naked
>and the Dead, Part 3, Chapter 14, which was published in 1948.
>
Re "Roll Me Over" Legman/Randolph gives 1955 so the Mailer is older.
Obviously the song's much older but there, you are.  He refers to older
recorded incarnations as "The Inches Song" & to chanty versions before
that.  But the actual 'Roll me over" chorus hasn't been otherwise recorded."She Was Poor but She Was Honest" will be harder.  I'll look later but this
song is more easily rendered in "parlor" versions.  It wouldn't surprise me
to find broadside versions.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
     I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                          Boycott South Carolina!

On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Abby Sale wrote:> >earliest printed or recorded instances of Roll Me Over
> >In the Clover and She Was Poor but She Was Honest.Sandburg, whose title was "It's the Syme The Whole World Over", mentions
that the song was popular among the Black Watch and Canadian and Anzac
troops during the [First] World War. (American Songbag, p. 200)Peace.
Paul

Building Newcastle/Northumbrian Source List
Whats not here that should be-
I am primairly concerned with songs with lyrics however,
I have
also included important tunes. Thanks in advance for
your generous assistance.
ConradSources For songs on my web page-A Beuk o' Newcassel Sangs.
Joseph Cawhall,
1888
Cawhall was a producer of woodcuts, and a colector of
song and antiquities and art. His main occupation
was that of ropemaker. He was born in Newcastle in 1921.
Crawhall died  in London July 7, 1896. Cawhall
cites as his cource Mr. John Stoke the collector
responsible for Northumbrian Minstrelsy.Crawhal claims
to have collected only the "best and most popular Songs"
of local Poets. He rejected "Political, pseudo-Military,
and Athletic" songs.
All of the songs which were printed with notation have
been included.Northumbrian Minstrelsy.
John Stokoe
John Colingwood Bruce
1882.
This work was inspired by the Society of Antiquaries of
Newcastle upon Tyne.Rhymes of Northern Bards.
John Bell 1812Songs from the Manuscript Collection of John Bell.
D.I Harker ed.
James Hall, Ltd. 1985.Come You Not from Newcastle., "A Collection of North
Country Songs", Gwen Polwarth, Frank Graham, Newcastle,
1972.Songs and Ballads of Northern England., John Stokoe,
Newcastle, Walter Scott, Ltd.Other Sources:           Allan's Illustrated Edition of Tyneside Songs
and Readings. With lives, portraits, and autographs of
the writers, and notes on the songs.
        Rev. ed. Newcastel upon Tyne: Thomas and George
Allan, 1891. Reprinted Newcastle upon Tyne: Frank
Graham, 1972.        Bell, J. Rhymes of Northern Bards: being a
curious collection of old and new songs and poems
peculiar to the counties of
        Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Northumberland and Durham.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne: J. Bell, 1812. Reprinted Newcastle:
Frank Graham, 1971.        Bell, J. (1985). Songs from the Manuscript
Collection of John Bell. Durham: Surtees Society.        Boswell, E. (1983). Eric Boswell's New Folk
Songs(mainly of Tyneside). Cramlington: Border Keep.        Boswell, E. (1995). Songs of the North East:
Books 1 and 2. North Tyne Publications.        Broadwood, L.E. and Fuller Maitland, J.A.
(1893). English Country Songs: words and music. London:
Leadenhall Press.        Broadwood, L.E. et al. (1998). Miss Broadwood's
Delight: Folk Songs from Sussex and other English
Counties. Ferret Publications.        Bronson, B.H. (1959-72). The Traditional Tunes
of the Child Ballads with their Texts, According to the
Extant Records of Great Britain
        and America. 4 vols. Princeton University Press.        Brown, J. (1992). English Traditional Carols and
Seasonal Songs. J Brown, Portsmouth. ISBN: 0951518747.        Bruce, J.Collingwood and Stokoe, J. (1882).
Northumbrian Minstrelsy: a collection of the ballads,
melodies, and small-pipe tunes of
        Northumbria. Newcastle-upon-Tyne: Society of
Antiquaries of Newcastle-upon-Tyne. Reprinted Llanerch
Publishers, 1971.        Cato, P. (1997). Pauline Cato's Northumbrian
Choice. D Mallinson Publications.        Cocks, W.A. and Bryan, J.F. (1967). The
Northumbrian Bagpipes. Northumbrian Pipers Society.        Crawhall, J. (1888). A Beuk o'Newcassel Sangs.
Newcastle upon Tyne: Mawson, Swan and Morgan. Reprinted
Harold Hill, 1965.        Davenport, P. (1997). South Riding Tunebook:
Traditional Dance Music from Yorkshire, Durham and West
Midland Manuscript
        Collections. South Riding Folk Network.        Davenport, P. (1997). Second South Riding
Tunebook: Traditional Dance Music From Northern English
Manuscript Collections. South
        Riding Folk Network. ISBN: 0952985713.        Dawney, M. (1973). Doon the Waggon Way: mining
songs from the north of England. Galliard/Stainer in
association with the Leeds
        University Institute of Dialect and Folk-Life
Studies and the English Folk Dance and Song Society.        Dixon, J.H. (1846). Ancient Poems, Ballads, and
Songs of the Peasantry of England, Taken Down from Oral
Recitation, and
        Transcribed from Private Manuscripts, Rare
Broadsides, and Scarce Publications. London: T Richards
for the Percy Society.
        Reprinted East Ardsley: EP Publishing, 1973.        Dunn, R. (1997). The Old and the New: Dances and
Dance Tunes Traditional and Novel from Robin Dunn. D
Mallinson Publications.        Friedman, A.B. (1956). The Viking Book of Folk
Ballads of the English-Speaking World. Viking Press.        Hall, A. and Stafford, W.J. (1974). The Charlton
Memorial Tune Book: a collection of tunes for the
Northumbrian small-pipes and the
        fiddle. Northumbrian Pipers Society.        Hamer, F. (1973). Green Groves: more English
folk songs collected by Fred Hamer. London: E.F.D.S.
Publications.        Johnson, D. (1997). Scottish Fiddle Music in the
18th Century: a music collection and historical study.
Edinburgh: Mercat.        Jones, E.H. (1996). Ceilidh Collection:
Traditional Fiddle Tunes from England, Ireland and
Scotland: Complete Edition. Boosey.        Kennedy, P. (1975). Folksongs of Britain and
Ireland: a guidebook to the living tradition of
folksinging in the British Isles and Ireland.
        Containing 360 folksongs from field recordings
sung in English, Lowland Scots, Scottish Gaelic, Irish
Gaelic and Manx Gaelic, Welsh,
        Cornish, Channel Islands French, Romany and
Tinkers Cants, etc. London: Cassell.        Lloyd, A.L. (1978). Come All Ye Bold Miners:
ballads and songs of the coalfields. London: Lawrence
and Wishart.        Luff, M. and Robson, J. (1994). Pipers in
Harmony: A Collection of Duets for Northumbrian Small
Pipes and Other Melody Instruments.
        Pipers in Harmony. ISBN: 0952341506.        MacColl, E. (1977). Traveller's Songs from
England and Scotland. Routledge and Kegan Paul.        Mason, M.H. (1909). Nursery Rhymes and Country
Songs, Both Tunes and Words from Tradition. London:
Metzler.        Merryweather, J. (1989). Tunes for English
Bagpipes. Dragonfly Music.        Palmer, R. (1979). Everyman's Book of English
Country Songs. Dent.        Palmer, R. (1980). A Book of British Ballads.
Llanerch Publishers. ISBN: 01861430612.        Phillips, S. (1967). Fiddle Case Tunebook:
British Isles. Music Sales Corporation.        Polwarth, G.M. (1965). Folk Songs of
Northumberland. University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne Adult
Education Depatrment.        Polwarth, G.M. (1970). Folk Songs and Dance
Tunes from the North. With fiddle tunes, pipe tunes and
street cries. Newcastle upon
        Tyne, F. Graham.        Polwarth, G. and Mary. (1969). North Country
Songs, with fiddle tunes, pipe tunes, and street cries.
Newcastle-upon-Tyne: Frank
        Graham        Seattle, M. (1990). The Morpeth Rant: A Grand
Selection of Northumbrian and Related Music. Blyth:
Dragonfly Music.        Shield, W. (1796). Hey Dance to the Fiddle and
Tabor. London, Preston and Son.        Sharp, C. (1974). Cecil Sharp's Collection of
English Folk Songs. Oxford University Press.        Sharp, C.J. (1976). One Hundred English Folk
Songs. Dover Publications.        Traditional English Favourites for Keyboard.
(1996). International Music Publications. ISBN:
1859093981.        Traditional Folk Tunes. (1993). Music Sales
Corporation. ISBN: 0711934622.        Varty, F. (1970). Tyneside Songster. Newcastle
upon Tyne, Graham.        Weatherley, D. (1973). Songs of Northumbria.
Newcastle upon Tyne: Frank Graham.        Williamson, R. (1986). English, Welsh, Scottish
and Irish Fiddle Tunes. Music Sales Corporation.        Colls, R. (1977). The Collier's Rant: song and
culture in the industrial village. London: Croom Helm;
Totowa: Rowman and
        Littlefield.        Dean-Smith, M. (1954). A Guide to English Folk
Song Collections, 1822-1952, with an index to their
contents, historical annotations
        and an introduction. Liverpool University Press
in association with the English Folk Dance and Song
Society.        Gregson, K. (1978). When the Boats Come In: the
songs of a nineteenth century sport. English Dance and
Song, 40, 90-94.        Griffin, C.D. (1989). Folk Music: in Britain,
Ireland, and the USA. London: Dryad.        Handle, J. Industrial Folk Music and Regional
Music Hall in the North East: 1) established traditions
and the new era 2) growth and
        extent of the music hall 3) music of the
miners.English Dance and Song, 1 & 2: 27, 1965; 3, 28,
1966.        Porter, J. (1989). The Traditional Music of
Britain and Ireland. New York: Garland.        Proud, K. (1983). The Northumbrian Small Pipes.
Cramlington, Northumberland: Border Keep.        Wales, T. (1968). The Folk Story: folk dances
and songs in the English tradition. English Folk Dance
and Song Society.        Wehse, R. (1969). Schwank-songs on British
Broadsides: a classification and compilation. Indiana
University Press.--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
&  Peasant
and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
##############################################################################

I am seeking the tune or source for the tune for the
song-
Bonny Gateshead Lass
lyrics= below....
abcs midi image ok!
Many thanks for your time and assistance in advance!Conrad Bladey
[unmask]I'll warrant you, you've never seen me lass, her name I
cannot mention, for fear you'll gan and tell her how I
like her so I dee! Well it's just for lads and lasses
for to whisper their
 affection. The bonniest lass in Gateshead's bonny face
has bothered me. Well the first time I saw her, well I thought I didn't
know her, but I'm sure I'd seen her face before, I
couldn't think of where, her blue eyes met mine in
passing, up the High Street in the
 morning, and her look was so entrancing, that me heart
was mine nee mair. Well I didn't see her for a week then one night at the
Bridge End, I stamped upon her gown, and the gathers
they come away, she told us I was clumsy and I said that
I was sorry, and I
 humbly begged her pardon, I was licked for what to say. So I walked on by her side just as if I had a right to
de, the conversation first was shy but then it turned
first class. We talked about the weather and she
mentioned that her father was a
 puddler down at Hawks', oh me bonny Gateshead lass. She mentioned confidentially that her uncle was a
grocer, and her mother's, father's, cousin was a fiddler
on the shore. She talked so nice and pleasant and she
looked both sweet and
 pleasant, I thowt I'd never a seen a lass so charming
like before. She says her mother keeps a shop and sells hot pies and
candy, and her brother he's a cobbler in the high part
of the town. Now she was a dressmaker and we got on so
well together,
 that I blessed I'd been so awkward as to stand upon her
gown. I make her laugh and slap me lug with talking lots of
nonsense. But bless you when you're courting why there's
nowt so good'll pass. I asked her would she be me lass
and I'd take her
 own on Sunday, to my delight she says "I might" me
bonny Gateshead lass.

Hello, folks.  as I've written earlier, I'm just learning to use a new
Wondows computer and new adaptive technology.  Someone installed Real
Player software, so I'll be able to check out the Library of Congress
field recordings, etc.     I know that any number of radio stations are on the web.  Does anyone
know of good traditional music and song broadcasts that I could catch on
the web?  If so, please provide Url addresses.     Thanks much.                    Marge Steiner

On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:54:25 -0500, msteiner wrote:>     I know that any number of radio stations are on the web.  Does anyone
>know of good traditional music and song broadcasts that I could catch on
>the web?  If so, please provide Url addresses.
>These are the direct URLs to plug into PealPlayer.  Your browser needn't be
open at all.  All times are Eastern.  Shows are live.  Or nearly so.pnm://real.cam.org/ckut.ra - Mike R.-Folk Roots / Folk Branches - Thurs 9pmpnm://208.188.234.102/live.ram - Stamler's "No Time to Tarry Here" on KDHX,
St Louis Sun at 3pmhttp://playlist.broadcast.com/makeram.asp?id=5659 - Midnight Special WFMT
Chigago - Sat 9pmhttp://www.warpradio.com - William Hahn - "TRADITIONS" on WFDU Sun at 3pm
(I haven't actually heard this one - I reckon if it interferes with "Tarry"
it can't be very good.)pnm://raf.cbc.ca/cbchalifax.rm - Nova Scotia Kitchen Party - Sat at 3:05Also, there are any number of dead things on the web to check.  (They call
them archived but Lenin's archived, isn't he?)  Especially the U Utah
Phillips series of shows at http://hobo.org/radio.html then click the
"Click" for the menu. - Do use the browser for this one.  (The individual
shows seem to have saveable URLs but not the menu.)-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
     I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                          Boycott South Carolina!

Real Player provides a hot button on the upper bar for stations(?).  Hit
it and you get a selection, including classical and international.  Hit
international and you can get Celtic.It is sometimes hard to get on, but once there is an array from
traditional to McKennett (sp?).If you need URLs, I will search them out.Ed

Thanks, Ed and Abby./  i'm new to all this, but I will certainly try to do
all this.         Marge

Well, I first heard Roll Me Over in 1940 or 1941. It wasn't new then.
Don't recall when I first encountered She Was Poor But She Was Honest.dick greenhausOn Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Abby Sale wrote:> On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:34:21 -0800, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> >Folks:
> >
> >Can anyone help this fellow?
> >
> Well, ok.  But I always mis-read this question as "Can anyone help this
> fellow out?"  To which the answer, of course, is "Which way did he come
> in?"
>
> >earliest printed or recorded instances of Roll Me Over
> >In the Clover and She Was Poor but She Was Honest.
> Naked
> >and the Dead, Part 3, Chapter 14, which was published in 1948.
> >
> Re "Roll Me Over" Legman/Randolph gives 1955 so the Mailer is older.
> Obviously the song's much older but there, you are.  He refers to older
> recorded incarnations as "The Inches Song" & to chanty versions before
> that.  But the actual 'Roll me over" chorus hasn't been otherwise recorded.
>
> "She Was Poor but She Was Honest" will be harder.  I'll look later but this
> song is more easily rendered in "parlor" versions.  It wouldn't surprise me
> to find broadside versions.
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
>      I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)
>
>                           Boycott South Carolina!
>

Just remembered. Poor but Hoinest was published in Shay's Pious Friends
and Drunken Companions (1927). I don;t have a copy of Songs My Mother
Never Taught Me (Niles), but it's worth checking there.dick greenhaus

Hi-
The Mudcat Cafe (www.mudcat.org) has a fair number of these programs
archived.dick greenhausOn Wed, 22 Mar 2000, msteiner wrote:> Hello, folks.  as I've written earlier, I'm just learning to use a new
> Wondows computer and new adaptive technology.  Someone installed Real
> Player software, so I'll be able to check out the Library of Congress
> field recordings, etc.
>
>      I know that any number of radio stations are on the web.  Does anyone
> know of good traditional music and song broadcasts that I could catch on
> the web?  If so, please provide Url addresses.
>
>      Thanks much.
>
>
>                     Marge Steiner
>

We need info on "The Lake(s) of Ponchartrain" (Laws H9) for a program.
The Ballad Index lists it as having an earliest date of 1924, and it
seems to have been in "The New Green Mountain Songster" in 1934.Can anyone take it back further?  Was there an Irish predecessor (BI
lists it as occuring in Ireland)?-Don Duncan

In a message dated 23/03/2000  05:13:59, you write:<< I don;t have a copy of Songs My Mother
 Never Taught Me (Niles), but it's worth checking there. >>Published 1929 but neither song is there.John Moulden

On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 16:54:25 -0500, you wrote:>Hello, folks.  as I've written earlier, I'm just learning to use a new
>Wondows computer and new adaptive technology.  Someone installed Real
>Player software, so I'll be able to check out the Library of Congress
>field recordings, etc.
>
>     I know that any number of radio stations are on the web.  Does anyone
>know of good traditional music and song broadcasts that I could catch on
>the web?  If so, please provide Url addresses.The University of New Hampshire station WUNH has a line-up of folk and
folk-type shows on Sundays.  My personal vote goes to the Ceili show
(higher trad content) from noon to 2PM.  Web page here:
http://www.wunh.unh.edu/
Link directly to the broadcast: pnm://wunh.unh.edu:6060/on-line.raJeri Corlew--
Jeri Corlew

On 3/23/00, Donald A. Duncan wrote:>We need info on "The Lake(s) of Ponchartrain" (Laws H9) for a program.
>The Ballad Index lists it as having an earliest date of 1924, and it
>seems to have been in "The New Green Mountain Songster" in 1934.
>
>Can anyone take it back further?  Was there an Irish predecessor (BI
>lists it as occuring in Ireland)?FWIW, that "Ireland" listing is actually from Ulster; Sam Henry printed
it in 1935. His source reportedly learned it c. 1905.Laws did not list any other non-American versions; I have to suspect
that the Irish text came from someone in America.There was apparently an article on the piece in JAF in 1922.Looking at the list in Laws, I have to think the piece dates
well back into the nineteenth century. But I can't prove it.Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Thanks, Bob and John - that fleshes it out a bit.  Interesting history.
The Christy Moore songbook says:> I learned this song in 1966 from the singing of Mike Waterson of Hull.
> Ponchartrain is situated outside New Orleans and this is reputed to be an
> American Civil War Song about a soldier who found himself on the wrong side of
> the line after the truce and was helped out of his predicament by a woman.Planxty's notes (Cold Blow and Rainy Night) says:> In 1812 British and French soldiers were fighting Americans in Louisiana and
> Canada. It seems likely that some returning soldier brought The Lakes of
> Pontchartrain back with him. There are other versions of this song which deal
> more directly with the war. Mike Waterson of Hull, Yorkshire taught us this song
> and thought it had Irish connections.Same source, different stories.Sounds like it's clearly American, but it's a bit odd that its wide
distribution in the US, and in maritime ports, doesn't seem to have
produced more interest across the water.Any hints on the tune(s)?And as a matter of interest, was there any significant 19th century
collection of trad material in the US, or was it mostly feeding off the
British collections?-Don

Just out of curiosity, is this song sometimes called "The Banks of [the]
Ponchartrain"? If so, there's a lovely cowboy version of it (by a 70-
year-old, I think) on Joe Wilson's excellent NCTA-issued tape, "The Cowboy
Tour,"  from the ?1980 tour of the same name which I think Joe put
together.  I'll look up more info if you tell me my hunch *isn't* a dead
end.Michael Bell

In a message dated 3/23/00 12:13:46 PM EST, [unmask] writes:> Just out of curiosity, is this song sometimes called "The Banks of [the]
>  Ponchartrain"? If so, there's a lovely cowboy version of it (by a 70-
>  year-old, I think) on Joe Wilson's excellent NCTA-issued tape, "The Cowboy
>  Tour,"  from the ?1980 tour of the same name which I think Joe put
>  together.  I'll look up more info if you tell me my hunch *isn't* a dead
>  end.It isn't, and we'd much like to hear the information! Lisa Null's liner notes
say that she learned the song from Gale Huntington of Martha's Vineyard, who
learned it from Welcome Tilton, his wife's grandfather, who was a whaler. She
describes it as a "common American broadside".Peace.
Paul

It was also recorded by none other than Hank Williams for M-G-M around 1950.Jim Nelson>>> <[unmask]> 03/23/00 11:20AM >>>
In a message dated 3/23/00 12:13:46 PM EST, [unmask] writes:> Just out of curiosity, is this song sometimes called "The Banks of [the]
>  Ponchartrain"? If so, there's a lovely cowboy version of it (by a 70-
>  year-old, I think) on Joe Wilson's excellent NCTA-issued tape, "The Cowboy
>  Tour,"  from the ?1980 tour of the same name which I think Joe put
>  together.  I'll look up more info if you tell me my hunch *isn't* a dead
>  end.It isn't, and we'd much like to hear the information! Lisa Null's liner notes
say that she learned the song from Gale Huntington of Martha's Vineyard, who
learned it from Welcome Tilton, his wife's grandfather, who was a whaler. She
describes it as a "common American broadside".Peace.
Paul

Okay-- at the moment my cassette is at home, but here's what's in the
memory bank: It has songs done entirely by working or retired cowboys:
Johnny Whelan, Duff Severe, maybe Brownie Ford, & at least 3 others whose
names I forget; "A Cowboy's Reincarnation," recited by Glenn Ohrlin; and
a slack-key instrumental or two from Kalim Haleamau.Is anybody e-connected to Joe Wilson? He probably has it all on the top of
his head.

>  From [unmask] Thu Mar 23 12:35:29 2000
>  MIME-Version: 1.0
>  Date:         Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:35:25 -0700
>  From: Bell Michael <[unmask]>
>  Subject:      Re: Lake of Ponchartrain provenance
>  To: [unmask]>  Okay-- at the moment my cassette is at home, but here's what's in the
>  memory bank: It has songs done entirely by working or retired cowboys:
>  Johnny Whelan, Duff Severe, maybe Brownie Ford, & at least 3 others whose
>  names I forget; "A Cowboy's Reincarnation," recited by Glenn Ohrlin; and
>  a slack-key instrumental or two from Kalim Haleamau.>  Is anybody e-connected to Joe Wilson? He probably has it all on the top of
>  his head.He used to post to rec.music.country.old-time.
Haven't seen a post from him there in a while, though.

In a message dated 3/23/00 12:15:41 PM Central Standard Time,
[unmask] writes:> >  Is anybody e-connected to Joe Wilson? He probably has it all on the top
of
>  >  his head.
>
>  He used to post to rec.music.country.old-time.
>  Haven't seen a post from him there in a while, though.Joe was last heard from at:[unmask]Peace.
Paul

Ellen Stekert collected it from Fuzzy Barhight with a different tune than
the usual "Tramps and Hawkers variant,  back
in the 50s. It's on her Folkways recording Songs of a New York Lumberjack.dick greenhaus

In _Songs of Miramichi_, Manny & Wilson say the song was brought to New
Brunswick by workers building the Intercolonial Railway in the 1870s,
though it's common enough in the northeast that a more general route,
such as the lumbercamps, may be the link.  Hard to say.The tune found in Flanders, Manny & Wilson, and Creighton (1932) is
major, and it almost sounds like there's some music hall influence,
with a little chromatic run in the second line (in the first three
lines in Flanders).  The music hall feel really comes through in the
6/8 version in Manny & Wilson.  The tune in the Henry collections
appears to be derived from the same tune.>> And as a matter of interest, was there any significant 19th century
>> collection of trad material in the US, or was it mostly feeding off
the
>> British collections?William Wells Newell published _Games and Songs of American Children_
in 1883, but that may be the exception that proves the rule.  To the
best of my knowledge there was no systematic collection of traditional
songs in North America until Kittredge promoted it among his students.Harking back to an earlier discussion of "Mondegreens,"  the MC at a
folk festival in Newfoundland asked a performer what he was going to
sing, and mishearing the response he announced: "and now Mr. Tom Antle
will sing "Lakes by de bunch o trees."Cheers
Jamie

In a message dated 23/03/2000  16:58:01, you write:<< Sounds like it's clearly American, but it's a bit odd that its wide
 distribution in the US, and in maritime ports, doesn't seem to have
 produced more interest across the water. Any hints on the tune(s)? And as a matter of interest, was there any significant 19th century
 collection of trad material in the US, or was it mostly feeding off the
 British collections? >>Paddy McCluskey's tune is very like The Sash my Father Wore.
The tune Planxty and Christie Moore use is very Irish.Edith Fowke explored the idea that there were so few reputedly native
American love songs on the pattern of British Broadsides - I think she named
Lakes of Ponchartrain, Banks of Brandywine and The Star of Belleisle - that
they were most likely imports for which the old world analogues had not
survived. However, there are versions of all in Irish tradition - I
eventually established that the Star of Belleisle was Irish on account of
traditional versions and a fragmentary printed text in the Library of the
Royal Irish Academy but it was concluded that the single versions known of
the other two had been imported into Ireland by returning migrants.All three are very Irish however.I'm going to Donegal tomorrow - see
http://sites.netscape.net/folkmusic/inishowenseminar and won't be back till
Monday - so having thrown that idea into the ring I'll remain incomunicado.Oh and another idea. There is one song in Sam Henry - Mary Smith, the Maid of
Mountain Plain which is almost certainly an import from Canada - where, as
far as I know, it is unknown! Does anyone have any better information?John Moulden

The 22 versions in my indexes, listed below, were all collected from the
1920s onwards, although Randolph's singer claimed to have learnt it 'about
1898'. The song seems to be suspiciously absent from 19th century broadsides
and songsters (but few of these are yet indexed). It seems almost as popular
in Canada as in the US. The two British versions are both from the same
singer in Northern Ireland, who learnt it in 1905 from a man who had himself
learnt it in America. Several writers comment on its similarity to the older
'Little Mohea'/'Indian Lass' song(s) (Laws H8), but apart from this I see no
reason to doubt its North American provenance.Steve RoudUSA
Flanders etc., New Green Mountain Songster pp.147-148
Gardner & Chickering, Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan p.133 (version a)
Gardner & Chickering, Ballads & Songs of Southern Michigan p.133 (version b)
Larkin, Singing Cowboy pp.46-48
Library of Congress AAFS L55
Randolph, Ozark Folk Songs  4 p.413
Journal of American Folklore 35 (1922) pp.387-388
Stout, Folklore from Iowa pp.90-91
Peters, Folksongs Out of Wisconsin p.134
Huntington, Folksongs from Martha's Vineyard (Northeast Folklore
8,1966)pp.48-49
Pound, American Ballads & Songs (1922) pp.127-128Canada
Edith Fowke Coll. (FO 54)
Edith Fowke Coll. (FO 74)
Fowke & Johnston, Folk Songs of Canada 2 pp.184-185
Creighton, Songs & Ballads from Nova Scotia pp.299-300
Doucette: Canadian Folk Music Journal 3 (1975) p.28
Manny & Wilson, Songs of the Miramichi (1968) pp.256-257
Family Herald (Montreal) Old Favourites section; 6 Jan 1937; 17 Aug 1949; 3
Jul 1952N. Ireland
Huntington, Songs of the People (1990) pp.373-374
BBC recording 20031----- Original Message -----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
To: <[unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2000 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: Lake of Ponchartrain provenance> On 3/23/00, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
>
> >We need info on "The Lake(s) of Ponchartrain" (Laws H9) for a program.
> >The Ballad Index lists it as having an earliest date of 1924, and it
> >seems to have been in "The New Green Mountain Songster" in 1934.
> >
> >Can anyone take it back further?  Was there an Irish predecessor (BI
> >lists it as occuring in Ireland)?
>
> FWIW, that "Ireland" listing is actually from Ulster; Sam Henry printed
> it in 1935. His source reportedly learned it c. 1905.
>
> Laws did not list any other non-American versions; I have to suspect
> that the Irish text came from someone in America.
>
> There was apparently an article on the piece in JAF in 1922.
>
> Looking at the list in Laws, I have to think the piece dates
> well back into the nineteenth century. But I can't prove it.
>
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 2095 Delaware Avenue
> Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
> 651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

On Thu, 23 Mar 2000 00:09:12 -0500, dick greenhaus wrote:Looking in Legman/Randolph for "She Was Poor but She Was Honest."It does have more recorded history as I suspected.  Since it easily works
as a suggestive, rather than bawdy song, it could be widly recorded.  It,
or "It's the Syme the Whole World Over" is a music hall travesty.  He says
this is a take-off of anonymous-but-copyright-anyway "The Gypsy's Warning."
First published in 1864.  Legman cites Norm Cohen (Hi!) as ed of Randolph's
_Ozark Folksongs_.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
     I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                          Boycott South Carolina!

Dear List,I have long wondered if someone has ever tracked down the 'historical novel'
that Paul Brady talked about with regard to this song.He wrote in his notes to the 1978 album:  I learnt this song from Christy Moore whose version comes from Mike Waterson.
  Someone came up to me after a concert in New York and said that it had a
  parallel in an old historical novel (the name of which I never got) about an
  Irish deserter from the Confederate Army at the end of the American Civil
  War who was trying to make his way to Cuba ... and it was to this same story
  that the song referred.  The railroad fits that period and perhaps 'foreign
  money' refers to worthless confederate money?  As for the Irishman, well,
  another version of the song turns up in 'Songs of the People' (No. 619)
  which helps to lend credence to that story. I'd love to know more about it.He says nothing about the above in his notes to the 1999 album that includes
a new recording of the song.  Has anybody found anything?  I'd love to hear
about it.  Thanks.Fri, 24 Mar 2000 23:39:50Best regards,
Michael E Hishikawa

Thanks to all who contributed on this question.  It's rather an
interesting song.  As I conclude in summary:The song was apparently extant in Canada, the northern US and Ireland in
the '20s, but almost surely was American.  Testimony of informants gives
it a 19th century origin, although no more than that can be concluded,
since no 19th century printed occurrences have been documented.Sources seem to be the lumber camps, sailors, and railroad workers - all
occupations which attracted the itinerant and constantly singing Irish,
which may explain the Irish flavor of the song, and all three of which
we know from other examples shared songs.  The location in the song was
a major cotton port as well as a major import/export locale for the
central US and some of the south.  There appears also to be a cowboy
version of unknown provenance.The War of 1812 origin suggested by Planxty seems unlikely; a Civil War
origin is more plausible, but (as far as we can tell at this time)
completely speculative.Creighton adds, "The more common name of the song,
and that given by Mrs. Enos Hartlan, is The Creole Girl."Michael E Hishikawa's observation about a historical novel could shed
some light on origins, but the date is critical to solve the
chicken-and-egg problem.-------On my own side, I searched the on-line sheet music, song sheet and
broadside collections at the Library of Congress and various
universities, and found nothing relevant under "Ponch*" or "Creole" (and
sometimes "Lake").  I did, however observe that:a) The single occurrence I found of "Ponchatrain" was in a song entitled
"Singing the National Anthem" (undated), in the LoC collection of "Civil
War Song Sheets".Freemen for freedoms' sake arise!
And make your voices reach the skies,
Let psalms of hope and hymns of prayer,
Reverberate each breath of air,
And Hampshire's hills re-echo, back
To the shores of Potomac.
Then let that lovely river speak
Unto majestic Chesapeake,
And that in turn catch up the strain
Whispering it to PONCHATRAIN.
On let the noble language go!
Until it lisps to Ohio,
And murm'ring o'er its placid waves ... etc.This at least suggests that the locale was widely enough known at that
time that it could be used as a generic place name.b) The incidence of "Creole", in songs like "The Creole Lover" and "The
Creole Quickstep", seemed almost exclusively in a minstrel context;
Creole was considered at least socially equivalent to mulatto or
"yellow".  This suggests that Ponchetrain, if it had music-hall origins,
would have been a minstrel song; it's unlikely that "polite" - or
southern - society would celebrate a white liaison with a "black" woman.
 As it's known, it doesn't seem to have that flavor - the minstrel songs
I've seen seem to be more heavily into the standard caricature of blacks
than into real love songs.  This context could presumably limit its
popularity to certain social strata, and perhaps explain why it was
primarily found in the north, and among occupations with high itinerant populations.Another song on the list to watch for...!-Don Duncan

On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Michael EH wrote:> I have long wondered if someone has ever tracked down the
> 'historical novel' that Paul Brady talked about with regard to this
> song.
>
> He wrote in his notes to the 1978 album:
>
>   [...]  The railroad fits that period and perhaps 'foreign money'
>   refers to worthless confederate money?I always had the idea that it referred to _French_ money, which I
gather continued in circulation in Louisiana for some years after the
Purchase.---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Every number is very small: almost all numbers are very much  :||
||:  larger.                                                       :||

Brownie Ford sings "Banks of the Ponchartrain" on _The Cowboy Tour_ (NCTA,
1983). Just to fill in the picture, other singers are Ken Trowbridge, Duff
Severe, and Glenn Ohrlin (who sings "The High-Toned Dance"); other
instrumentals by Junior Daugherty. Also jokes by Everett Brisendine.The cassette's contact information for NCTA is obsolete; but I'm pretty
sure they're easily findable with a websearch. (They've moved to Silver
Spring, Md.)All best / MB

I have just heard, from another folk newsgroup, of the passing of a great
balladeer, Ed McCurdy.  I am greatly saddened by this news, although not
very surprised; I had heard that he was ill for quite some time.Ed died in his sleep at the age of 81 on Thursday, March  23, 2000.  He will
be greatly missed.  I have fond memories of him when he performed at the
Toronto Storytelling Festival many years ago.  He was charming and
charismatic, and despite the fact that I was 17 and he was over 60, it
didn't stop him from flirting with me.Tonight we are having a ceilidh (song & story circle).  I plan to honour his
memory, and that of another great balladeer, Doug Wallin, by singing
something I've learned from each of them.  Their spirits will live on in
their music!Moira
...................................................................
CeltArctic Music/Moira Cameron
4505 Schooldraw Ave.
Yellowknife, NT, X1A 2K3
Canada
http://sites.netscape.net/moirakc/celtarctic_home

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

I though some of you might be interested in the following obit I read in the
folkdj-l newsgroup.
--------------------------------------------------------Ed McCurdy: January 11, 1919 - March 23, 2000Dear Friends,Our unforgettable Brother, Ed McCurdy, gospel, children, folk and erotic
singer, actor, songwriter of "The Strangest Dream," and one the planets
great characters and indefatigable spirits, left us in his sleep at 9:37 am
Thursday  morning, lying in his bed next to his beloved wife Beryl, at their
home in Halifax, Nova Scotia. He was 81.Born in Willow Hill, Pennsylvania, Ed headed west during the Depression to
make his career as a gospel singer. By 1937, the young man with the booming
baritone voice, landed a job singing on Oklahoma's top gospel radio station
WKY, in Oklahoma City, and by the next year he became their most popular
disc jockey.However, by 1939,  wanderlust hit him again, and he headed to Chicago, where
he auditioned for Sally Rand, The Queen of Burlesque. She was looking for a
tall (6'2"), handsome, tuxedoed baritone with a booming voice, who would
sing romantic songs to her in her act, and push her nude torso on her swing
in center stage. She hired him on the spot. And for the next several years,
together they toured the world's most prestigious burlesque theatres, with
Fat Jack Leonard as their comedian.In 1946, Ed immigrated to Canada, and began hosting a popular CBC-Radio
musical variety talk show in Vancouver, and in 1949, moved the show to
Toronto where it continued until 1952. During this six year period,
virtually every popular American and European musical star and recording
artist appeared on his show, including the top American folk singers of the
era, who became his good friends. During this period, he would also meet a
beautiful young dancer Beryl, who would become his wife and mother of his
three children. In 1952, he began writing and acting for CBC Radio & TV
children's programs, and that same year recorded his first album, "Ed
McCurdy Sings Songs of the Canadian Maritimes."However, it was one night in 1950, after a long night of drink and no sleep,
that would give Ed his immortality. That night, on the floor of his Toronto
hotel room, bottle in one hand, pen in the other, he wrote his signature
song, "(Last Night I Had) The Strangest Dream," which would become one of
the centuries most enduring peace songs. Recorded in 76 languages, by major
artists around the world, it would become the Peace Corps' Theme Song (as
recorded by Josh White, Jr.); and in 1989, as the world witnessed the
crumbling of the Berlin wall on international television, the cameras
poignantly showed East German school children singing "The Strangest Dream,"
from their school yards.In 1954, Ed moved to New York, where he would be begin a long recording
relationship with Elektra Records. His shared his first album for Elektra,
"Bad Men & Heroes," with Oscar Brand and Jack Elliott, and would later go on
to become one of America's major folk artists. That same year, he also
landed a job starring as "Freddy, The Fireman," on the popular New York
children's television show by the same name. And he would also later become
the announcer for network television's "George Gobel Show."However, his recording career took a major leap forward in 1957, when he
began recording a series of albums under the title, "When Dalliance Was In
Flower." This album series, with songs of risqué subject matter, became a
favorite for college students around the globe, and his concert touring
flourished. For many years to come, friends and fans would joyously refer to
him as `Dirty Ed McCurdy,' but  he would often bristle at the thought, and
reprimand any blasphemer in his booming Shakespearean bellow, "My Songs are
Not DIRTY, They Are EROTIC!"Ed would appear at four Newport Folk Festivals, and appear on Vanguard's
Festival albums. He would also record extensively for Tradition and
Riverside Records.  As the new generation of young folk artists appeared in
the 1960s, Ed's folk career began to decline, as did his health. In the
1970s, he was bedridden for most of the decade with severe heart, cancer and
back conditions and major operations. However, in the 1980s, as his health
improved, Ed and Beryl sold their New York apartment and moved to Halifax,
Nova Scotia.From 1983, into the early 90s, Ed resurrected his recording and performing
career in Canada, and began a new career as a successful character actor on
Canadian television dramas, displaying his ramrod stature, ornamented by his
white hair and beard--usually portraying men with the evangelical
imperiousness of John Brown. In recent years, Ed's back, heart and lungs
started deteriorating, leaving him bound to a wheel chair. But for all those
who would telephone Ed in the recent years, he would always rise to the
occasion, offer you his mellifluous voice, ask about old friends, and
usually share a humorous `erotic' antidote with you and laugh that glorious
laugh. . .Ed was one of a kind. We will all miss him dearly. . . ."Last night I had the strangest dream I ever dreamed before,
I dreamed the world had all agreed to put an end to war.
I dreamed I saw a mighty room, and that room was filled with men,
And the paper they were signing said, `We'd never fight again!'And when the paper was all signed and a million copies made,
They all joined hands and bowed their heads and grateful prayers were
prayed.
And the people in the streets below were dancing round and round,
While swords and guns and uniforms lay scattered on the ground."Last night I had the strangest dream I ever dreamed before,
I dreamed the world had all agreed to put an end to war."See you in our dreams Ed, with undying love,Written by:
Douglas A. Yeager Productions, Ltd.
300 West 55th Street, New York, New York 10019
Tel: (212) 245-0240 / Fax: (212) 245-6576...................................................................
CeltArctic Music/Moira Cameron
4505 Schooldraw Ave.
Yellowknife, NT, X1A 2K3
Canada
http://sites.netscape.net/moirakc/celtarctic_home

There are now 6232 tunes stressed note and mode coded in the
coded tune files on my website. The number of modes of old
popular and traditional British Isles tunes now stands at
172, which is a little more than 8% of the 2047 possible modes.My mode number proved useful for figuring out the mode of
strangely scored tune in JFSS 10, p. 17 (1907), "The Bunch of
Rushes". This had no sharps or flats on the key signature,
accidental flats on all B's, and both flats and naturals on E's.
Eb was obviously the keynote. Calculating the mode number from
the scale (= 1387) and comparing it to tunes in my file
CODEMATR.TXT gave the result that this was Lydian with variable
1st, not the first such I've seen, but never before was one scored
like this. Even without others of this mode in the reference
file, one could determine the mode, since the Lydian mode # is
1386 and the only way to have a mode number bigger by 1 would be
to have the 1st variable. (Conventional scoring would be two
flats on the key signature with accidentals on the natural E's.)I erred when I said the program for seaching and displaying the
tune codes required WINDOWS. The TRUBASIC programing system
requires WINDOWS, but the compiled program on my website doesn't
require WINDOWS.Bruce Olson--
My website: www.erols.com/olsonw <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Please note that my Orange/Loyalist/Unionist Song
collection is at:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5567/ooooo.htmland that my Beuk of Newcassel Sangs
already quite large collection and evolving...
is at=http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~dc920/HomePage.priests.htmlLink away quite ok!Conrad BladeyBruce Olson wrote:
>
> There are now 6232 tunes stressed note and mode coded in the
> coded tune files on my website. The number of modes of old
> popular and traditional British Isles tunes now stands at
> 172, which is a little more than 8% of the 2047 possible modes.
>
> My mode number proved useful for figuring out the mode of
> strangely scored tune in JFSS 10, p. 17 (1907), "The Bunch of
> Rushes". This had no sharps or flats on the key signature,
> accidental flats on all B's, and both flats and naturals on E's.
> Eb was obviously the keynote. Calculating the mode number from
> the scale (= 1387) and comparing it to tunes in my file
> CODEMATR.TXT gave the result that this was Lydian with variable
> 1st, not the first such I've seen, but never before was one scored
> like this. Even without others of this mode in the reference
> file, one could determine the mode, since the Lydian mode # is
> 1386 and the only way to have a mode number bigger by 1 would be
> to have the 1st variable. (Conventional scoring would be two
> flats on the key signature with accidentals on the natural E's.)
>
> I erred when I said the program for seaching and displaying the
> tune codes required WINDOWS. The TRUBASIC programing system
> requires WINDOWS, but the compiled program on my website doesn't
> require WINDOWS.
>
> Bruce Olson
>
> --
> My website: www.erols.com/olsonw <A
> href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
&  Peasant
and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
##############################################################################

Seeking tune for
The Bonny Gateshead Lass
(In my Collection here:
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5863/priests5.html#The
Bonny Gateshead )The Bonny Gateshead Lass
For Notation Click Here
For Midi Sound Click HereI'll warrant you, you've never seen me lass, her name I
cannot mention,
for fear you'll gan and tell her how I like her so I
dee!
Well it's just for lads and lasses for to whisper their
affection.
The bonniest lass in Gateshead's bonny face has bothered
me.Well the first time I saw her, well I thought I didn't
know her,
but I'm sure I'd seen her face before, I couldn't think
of where,
her blue eyes met mine in passing, up the High Street in
the morning,
and her look was so entrancing, that me heart was mine
nee mair.Well I didn't see her for a week then one night at the
Bridge End,
I stamped upon her gown, and the gathers they come away,
she told us I was clumsy and I said that I was sorry,
and I humbly begged her pardon,
I was licked for what to say.So I walked on by her side just as if I had a right to
de,
the conversation first was shy but then it turned first
class.
We talked about the weather and she mentioned that her
father
was a puddler down at Hawks', oh me bonny Gateshead
lass.She mentioned confidentially that her uncle was a
grocer,
and her mother's, father's, cousin was a fiddler on the
shore.
She talked so nice and pleasant and she looked both
sweet and pleasant,
I thowt I'd never a seen a lass so charming like
before......

Ballads and Songs of Tradition
Various Artists
Folk-Legacy CD-125Folk-Legacy CD-125
Folk-Legacy Records, Inc
Box 1148
Sharon, CT 06069http://www.folklegacy.comA review written for the Folk & Acoustic Music Exchange by Ed Cray
([unmask])  Since he first met the Beech Mountain, North
Carolina-native Frank Proffitt at the 1961 Chicago Folk Festival, Sandy
Paton, his wife Caroline, and Lee Baker Haggerty have sought out
traditional singers to record their songs and ballads.  Paton, Paton, and
Haggerty havespent the better part of a lifetime scraping and scrimping to fund the next
trip to the Appalachians, Ozarks, or upper New York state, making time to
edit the tapes, writing and printing the unusually thoughtful notes that
marked their records and tapes, and selling the successive releases that
made Folk-Legacy a recorded resource of Anglo-American traditional songs
and singers second to none.Proffitt and his banjo were the first because, Paton explained, "there was
no reason why we should not be able to hear Frank Proffitt himself sing his
ballads and songs, rather than hear them filtered through Frank Warner's
interpretations."  (Collector-singer Warner and his wife Anne had
encountered Proffitt in 1938, and learned some of his songs, including the
American murder ballad "Tom Dooley," later lifted and popularized by the
Kingston Trio's version.)In the years to come, Paton, Paton and Haggerty recorded literally dozens
of singers, and dozens of songs from the likes of Proffitt, Horton Barker,
Abe Trivett, Lawrence Older, and Edna Ritchie.  They found Sara Cleveland
in Brant Lake, New York, who knew a staggering 900 songs, 400 of them from
oral tradition.  They recorded in the Ozarks -- guided by the authoritative
Vance Randolph, his wife Mary Celestia Parler, and the recently deceased
Max Hunter.  In New Brunswick, Edward "Sandy" Ives (the two Sandy's are
often confused) introduced them to even more traditional singers, and once
again they mined gold.  Collectively, the Patons and Haggerty may be the
most prodigious collectors of Anglo-American folksongs and balladry since
Alan Lomax put his Ampex on the shelf.  In all, they have produced more
than 100 long-playing records, tapes and compact discs since that first
release 39 years ago.It has not been easy, or very profitable.  (I imagine that Haggerty, whom
Sandy Paton describes as "the guy who had a small inheritance that supplied
the capital that enabled us to get going," might dilate on this.)
Traditional singers, as you may have gathered, are not exactly big box office.Still, they persevered.  A new release might generate enough money to fund
the next.  If it did not, they waited until catalogue sales and Haggerty's
inheritance paid off printer and record presser.Still, one by one, the Folk-Legacy catalogue grew, a tribute to the two
Patons and Haggerty, their dear friend and financial angel.  (As this is
written, bachelor Haggerty is hospitalized, and the concerned Patons are
shuttling between home and hospital in Connecticut.)In all of the releases, there have been some choice recoveries of the
muckle ballads thought long-since dead: Sandy Paton lists among them Sara
Cleveland's "Queen Jane," a version of "The King's Daughter Lady Jean"
(Child 52) never previously recorded in the United States; Frank Proffitt's
"Bonny James Campbell" (Child 210); Jeannie Robertson's superb "Twa
Brothers" (Child 49); and Joe Estey's "Hind Horn" (Child 17), of which
there have been but seven other versions reported in the New World.If nothing else, the Patons and Haggerty have proven these great
song-stories are not dead at all---an oral tradition survives.  In fact,
Sandy Paton notes, the songs of the parents are preserved by the singing of
the children.  Frank Proffitt, Jr., sings his father's repertoire; Colleen
Cleveland sings her grandmother's.  As it was, so it is; time without end.Which brings us to "Ballads and Songs of Tradition," the first of a planned
series of anthologies of traditional songs and ballads Folk-Legacy is to
release.  Here are 21 ballads by 13 singers recorded in North Carolina
living rooms and Scots croft kitchens.  They have been culled from the
Paton archives.  Many of them are previously unreleased---all of them are
choice.The Patons being comparative folklorists at heart cannot resist a touch of
gentle scholarship in their choices.  They provide contrasting versions of
three ballads: "Gypsy Davy" (Child 200), "The House Carpenter" (Child 243),
and a British 19th-Century broadside (?), which IS new to me, "The Old Arm
Chair."Of the 21 tracks, it is difficult to select favorites, but Scots housewife
Lizzie Higgins' "My Bonnie Boy" is a marvel of delicately ornamented
phrases.  (Ms. Higgins comes by it naturally; she is the daughter of
Jeannie Robertson and Donald Higgins, a master of the Highland pipes.)  Her
mother's "Twa Brothers" (Child 49) is truly gripping: six and one-half
minutes of blood-drenched drama. Similarly, Marie Hare of Strathadam, New
Brunswick, retells the grim fate of "Lost Jimmie Whalen" (Laws B 1); her
sheer artistry compels attention, no matter how familiar or inevitable the
story.All of which, I think, is the point of this anthology.  Paton, Paton and
Haggerty are intent on demonstrating that folk singers do possess an
aesthetic sense.  It is surely different from that of the classically
trained or popular singer, but nonetheless it is real -- and
underappreciated.  Voice, instrument, even self are subordinated to the
words, to the narrative.  That is the anything but simple artistry of the
13 traditional singers presented in this excellent first collection of a
promised series of anthologies drawn from the Folk-Legacy archives.Edited by:  David SchultzCopyright 2000, Peterborough Folk Music Society. This review may be
reprinted with prior permission and attribution.=====================
David N. Pyles
acousticmusic.com
P. O. Box 459
Brattleboro, VT 05302-0459
(802) 257-0336 Mon-Thur 9:30am-4:30pm
http://www.acousticmusic.com/frames
http://www.acousticmusic.com/frames/fame.htm
=====================
All my relations beneath the sun
I can see myself mirrored in everyone
Still I can forget to see myself in my closest ones
As if the reflection of my nearest mirror
is too much to bear so I can't even hear or
see the truth      as if I needed proof(So I'm gonna) Sing out a small word for such a big thing
Sing out a small word for such a big thingfrom A Small Word by Brian Cutean

What's this song?She tried te stand up te sing the "Cat Pie" but she fell
doon an' myed sic a clatter, -Source ; Wor Nannys a Mazer- Tommy ArmstrongMany thanks for any assistance...Conrad
--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
&  Peasant
and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
##############################################################################

"The Cat Pie" is Tommy Armstrong's own song, like "Th' Row in th'Guttor'
mentioned a few lines earlier.  The allegedly true story of how a cat got
baked in a pie (head and all) can be found on page 30 of 'Pollisses and
Candymen: The Complete Works of Tommy Armstrong', edited by Ross Forbes (Tommy
Armstrong Memorial Trust, 1987).   In the seventeenth century, of course, it
was countrymen coming to the cities who got baked into pies. What you
carnivores get up to never ceases to amaze me.Gerald Porter (veggie)  On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:37:38 -0600 [unmask] (Conrad Bladey
***Peasant****) wrote:>What's this song?
>
>She tried te stand up te sing the "Cat Pie" but she fell
>doon an' myed sic a clatter,
>
> -Source ; Wor Nannys a Mazer- Tommy Armstrong
>
>Many thanks for any assistance...
>
>Conrad
>--
>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
>Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
>&  Peasant
>and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
>Wedding and our Guide
>to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
>http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
>information:
>http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
>and
>http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
>#############################################################################
>#

Thanks Gerald-
See the Mudcat forum where the song was sent
recently....
Good to know of the book- wonder where I can get a copy.
Must czech LOC.....ConradGerald Porter wrote:
>
> "The Cat Pie" is Tommy Armstrong's own song, like "Th' Row in th'Guttor'
> mentioned a few lines earlier.  The allegedly true story of how a cat got
> baked in a pie (head and all) can be found on page 30 of 'Pollisses and
> Candymen: The Complete Works of Tommy Armstrong', edited by Ross Forbes (Tommy
> Armstrong Memorial Trust, 1987).   In the seventeenth century, of course, it
> was countrymen coming to the cities who got baked into pies. What you
> carnivores get up to never ceases to amaze me.
>
> Gerald Porter (veggie)
>
>   On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:37:38 -0600 [unmask] (Conrad Bladey
> ***Peasant****) wrote:
>
> >What's this song?
> >
> >She tried te stand up te sing the "Cat Pie" but she fell
> >doon an' myed sic a clatter,
> >
> > -Source ; Wor Nannys a Mazer- Tommy Armstrong
> >
> >Many thanks for any assistance...
> >
> >Conrad
> >--
> >@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> >Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
> >&  Peasant
> >and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
> >Wedding and our Guide
> >to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
> >http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
> >information:
> >http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
> >and
> >http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
> >#############################################################################
> >#--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
&  Peasant
and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
##############################################################################

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:04:38 +0000, Gerald Porter wrote:>"The Cat Pie" is Tommy Armstrong's own song, like "Th' Row in th'Guttor'
>mentioned a few lines earlier.  The allegedly true story of how a cat got
>baked in a pie (head and all) can be found on page 30 of 'Pollisses andOf course his hysterical "Hedgehog Pie" is very well-known, too.  This is
the first I've heard that Armstrong made a regular thing of ballads of
whole animals cooked up into pies.  Did he progress to larger animals?Anyone know any American songs/ballads on the theme?
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
     I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                          Boycott South Carolina!

Checked amazon,b&n, and Library of Congress thus far-
nothing.
Am interested in locating the book- anyone know of a
source
or library.....ConradGerald Porter wrote:
>
> "The Cat Pie" is Tommy Armstrong's own song, like "Th' Row in th'Guttor'
> mentioned a few lines earlier.  The allegedly true story of how a cat got
> baked in a pie (head and all) can be found on page 30 of 'Pollisses and
> Candymen: The Complete Works of Tommy Armstrong', edited by Ross Forbes (Tommy
> Armstrong Memorial Trust, 1987).   In the seventeenth century, of course, it
> was countrymen coming to the cities who got baked into pies. What you
> carnivores get up to never ceases to amaze me.
>
> Gerald Porter (veggie)
>
>   On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:37:38 -0600 [unmask] (Conrad Bladey
> ***Peasant****) wrote:
>
> >What's this song?
> >
> >She tried te stand up te sing the "Cat Pie" but she fell
> >doon an' myed sic a clatter,
> >
> > -Source ; Wor Nannys a Mazer- Tommy Armstrong
> >
> >Many thanks for any assistance...
> >
> >Conrad
> >--
> >@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> >Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
> >&  Peasant
> >and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
> >Wedding and our Guide
> >to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
> >http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
> >information:
> >http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
> >and
> >http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
> >#############################################################################
> >#--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
&  Peasant
and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
##############################################################################

The Complete Tommy Armstrong is one of my greatest treasures.  It may still be
available from Consett Music, Old Miners Hall, Percy Terrace, Delves Lane,
Consett, County Durham, England.  It cost me £5 when it was published in 1987,
and there's a cassette (extra) that goes with it.Tommy Armstrong was not by a long chalk the first to write a song about cats
as a delicacy.  There's a broadside in the Pepys Collection (4.83) called
Poplar Feast, or Cat Pasty, about a Moggy cooked in a pie. I must admit I was
surprised to find another example in such an animal-loving country.  It was
much easier at sea, of course: when food ran short you could just reach for
the nearest cabin boy.GeraldOn Thu, 30 Mar 2000 09:14:02 -0500 [unmask] (Abby Sale) wrote:>On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 14:04:38 +0000, Gerald Porter wrote:
>
>>"The Cat Pie" is Tommy Armstrong's own song, like "Th' Row in th'Guttor'
>>mentioned a few lines earlier.  The allegedly true story of how a cat got
>>baked in a pie (head and all) can be found on page 30 of 'Pollisses and
>
>Of course his hysterical "Hedgehog Pie" is very well-known, too.  This is
>the first I've heard that Armstrong made a regular thing of ballads of
>whole animals cooked up into pies.  Did he progress to larger animals?
>
>Anyone know any American songs/ballads on the theme?
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
>     I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)
>
>                          Boycott South Carolina!

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Gerald Porter wrote:> It was much easier at sea, of course: when food ran short you could
> just reach for the nearest cabin boy.That was a last resort:  The rats & mice, how they did eat them,
  Their hunger for to suage, we hear,
  And in the midst of all their trials,
  Captain & men bore an equal share.
  At last there fell a scant upon them,
  A dreadful thing most certainly.
  Poor fellows, they came in a tooroo,
  Casting of lots as to who should die.---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  You can't even trust me to be ornery.  :||

A two-record album called "American Sea Songs and Shanties" was issued
by the Library of Congress, L26 & L27 (no date).1. Does anyone know if this has been reissued and is currently available?2. The album I have access to is missing the booklet for the second
record, on which is "Sailor Dad" Hunt singing "When Jones's Ale Was New"
for John Lomax in 1941.  I presume, from the style of singing, that this
was used as a capstan shanty.  I'd like to use it as an example in a
workshop on the history of the shanty, but I'd like to check the album
notes for more information if possible.  Does anyone have it and could
they copy me the notes on that particular song (without the lyrics,
which I've already transcribed)?-Don Duncan

In a message dated 3/30/00 10:09:40 AM EST, [unmask] writes:> Checked amazon,b&n, and Library of Congress thus far-
>  nothing.
>  Am interested in locating the book- anyone know of a
>  source
>  or library.Check the Alibris book finder:http://www2.alibris.com/cgi-bin/texis/bookstorePeace.
Paul

Quoth Gerald Porter:
> Tommy Armstrong was not by a long chalk the first to write a song about cats
> as a delicacy.  There's a broadside in the Pepys Collection (4.83) called
> Poplar Feast, or Cat Pasty, about a Moggy cooked in a pie. I must admit I was
> surprised to find another example in such an animal-loving country.  It was
> much easier at sea, of course: when food ran short you could just reach for
> the nearest cabin boy.        Let's not get started on that one, shall we? Brings to mind
                Dunderbeck's sausage machine
                Whatsisname the barber (I'll remember his name just after I
                        push "SEND") or, more accurately, his girlfriend who
                        made the pies
                24 blackbirds        'Nuf already! Next subject! -- aloha, Lani<||>            Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Avenue, Richmond CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:51:52 -0800, Lani Herrmann wrote:>                Whatsisname the barber (I'll remember his name just after I
>                        push "SEND") or, more accurately, his girlfriend who
>                        made the piesSweeney Todd--
Jeri Corlew

Abby Sale wrote:
Anyone know any American songs/ballads on the theme?Methodist Pie? -  Tom

In a message dated 3/30/00 8:06:29 AM, [unmask] writes:>1. Does anyone know if this has been reissued and is currently available?
***********************
Yes -- still vILble in Audio-Cassette Form.  See the Archive of Folk Culture
website at < http://lcweb.loc.gov/folklife/archive.html >.
***************************
>2. The album I have access to is missing the booklet for the second
>record, on which is "Sailor Dad" Hunt singing "When Jones's Ale Was New"
>for John Lomax in 1941.  I presume, from the style of singing, that this
>was used as a capstan shanty.  I'd like to use it as an example in a
>workshop on the history of the shanty, but I'd like to check the album
>notes for more information if possible.  Does anyone have it and could
>they copy me the notes on that particular song (without the lyrics,
>which I've already transcribed)?
*********************
It's really a forebitter or forecastle song.  Here are the notes as weitten
by Dr . Duncan Emric h.  "The recording was made in WEashington, DC, in 1941,
by John A. Lomax.  Alan Lomax once told me that when the recordin g was
n=made, "Sailor Dad" Hunt used a pockwet kbnife to bang against a radiator to
get tehn sound of a beer-mug banging the table."This forecastle song was sung by sailors for entertainment only, either at
sea, or, more happily, when ashore with a mug of beer and a good crew around
a tavern table.  Originally a traditional shore song, it had no stanza
relating to the sailor, but this oversight was immediately taken care of as
soon as it moved to sea.  Doerflinger cites a specific instance of its
transfer from shore to sea as occurring in 1892, akthough his reference also
indicates that it may have been earlier.  "To splice the main brace" is, on
ship, to pass out the ration of grog, or, on shore and more generally, simply
to drink.  In 1941, this song was sung by "Sailor Dad"  for President
Roosevelt at an entertainment at the White House.  References:  Doerflinger,
p. 168."The reference, as you probably know, is to _Shanty Men and Shanty Boys_  by
William Main Doerflinger, NY: Macmillan, 1951.  Doerflinger calls the song
"When Johnson's Ale Was New."Sing well!Sam Hinton
La Jolla, CA

[unmask] wrote:
>> by Dr . Duncan Emric h.  "The recording was made in WEashington, DC, in 1941,
> by John A. Lomax.  Alan Lomax once told me that when the recordin g was
> n=made, "Sailor Dad" Hunt used a pockwet kbnife to bang against a radiator to
> get tehn sound of a beer-mug banging the table.Jeez!  Either my memory or my ear must be going bad! A pocket-knife
against a radiator?  I'd never have guessed that - I thought it sounded
like a cane against the floor!  I'm going to have to pull that out and
listen to it again - and try not to sprain anything jumping to further conclusions.-Don

On Thu, 30 Mar 2000, Tom Hall wrote:> Abby Sale wrote:
> Anyone know any American songs/ballads on the theme?
>
> Methodist Pie? -  TomJoe Hill's "The Preacher and the Slave", better known as "Pie in the Sky".Fiddle Tunes: "Chinquapin Pie" (similar to "Chinquapin Hunting"),
"Chicken Pie".And there was an old timer known as "Pie Plant Pete" around when I was a kid.Peace.
Paul

If you look in Alibris for Bronson's tunes, you'll find Vols I & II
available for $2110. If you look in Bibliofind, you'll find the same
books for $750, direct from a California bookseller. That they are
the same books is obvious from the descriptions. Quite a markup, I
thought, so I figured I'd pass the information along.John Roberts.[unmask] wrote:>In a message dated 3/30/00 10:09:40 AM EST, [unmask] writes:
>
> > Checked amazon,b&n, and Library of Congress thus far-
> >  nothing.
> >  Am interested in locating the book- anyone know of a
> >  source
> >  or library.
>
>Check the Alibris book finder:
>
>http://www2.alibris.com/cgi-bin/texis/bookstore
>
>Peace.
>Paul

I've lost track of who asked. OCLC only gave one library.  Note spelling
difference for "polisses."Tell your Inter-Library Loan person to check:Libraries with Item: "Polisses & candymen :..."
 Location Symbol  Library                  Interlibrary Loan Status
    KY     KNV    WESTERN KENTUCKY UNIV               LenderOn Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:06:08 -0600, Conrad Bladey ***Peasant**** wrote:>Checked amazon,b&n, and Library of Congress thus far-
>nothing.
>Am interested in locating the book- anyone know of a
>source
>or library.....
>
>Conrad
>
>Gerald Porter wrote:
>>
>> "The Cat Pie" is Tommy Armstrong's own song, like "Th' Row in th'Guttor'
>> mentioned a few lines earlier.  The allegedly true story of how a cat got
>> baked in a pie (head and all) can be found on page 30 of 'Pollisses and
>> Candymen: The Complete Works of Tommy Armstrong', edited by Ross Forbes (Tommy
>> Armstrong Memorial Trust, 1987).   In the seventeenth century, of course, it
>> was countrymen coming to the cities who got baked into pies. What you
>> carnivores get up to never ceases to amaze me.
>>
>> Gerald Porter (veggie)
>>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
     I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                          Boycott South Carolina!

I noted the same thing for Lloyd's "Folk Song In England" - only one
copy available on Bibliofind, from France at $37 plus shipping.  Alibris
lists one copy, 24-day delivery, for $58.  Quite a trick - find
everything available on the web, list it in your name, and buy it only
if you get a confirmed sale.  Sure keeps inventory down.-Don Duncan

Cal Herrmann wrote:
>
>         Let's not get started on that one, shall we? Brings to mind
>                 Dunderbeck's sausage machine
>                 Whatsisname the barber (I'll remember his name just after I
>                         push "SEND") or, more accurately, his girlfriend who
>                         made the pies
>                 24 blackbirdsJust a note about the last for the American non-ornithologists on the
list!  As a child, I heard this song/rhyme and envisioned a pie made of
grackles and starlings - highly distasteful.  It turns out, though, that
the English "blackbird" is a (brown) thrush, very like our robin in
size, habits and song (the English "robin" is a funky little
sparrow-sized bird; when an English friend first saw an American robin,
he remarked in amazement, "It's a bloody great thrush!").  And yes, the
English "blackbird" vocalization is striking; when one encounters such
references in songs (e.g. "If I was a blackbird, could whistle and
sing"), one should think of a robin rather than the unmusical croaks and
cries (or wintertime chortles) of our blackbirds.Back to the original point - thrushes, it turns out, are good eating.
Today it seems a little odd to have to have a law making it illegal to
kill robins, but when it was enacted, robins had been routinely hunted
for food (in New Hampshire at least) for a long time.  In England, a
blackbird pie would have been rather tasty, and if the blackbirds were
singing as well it would certainly have been a "dainty dish to set
before the king".-Don Duncan

Fantastic!
My library needs all the help it can get!
Many thanks!
ConradAbby Sale wrote:
>
> I've lost track of who asked. OCLC only gave one library.  Note spelling
> difference for "polisses."
>
> Tell your Inter-Library Loan person to check:
>
> Libraries with Item: "Polisses & candymen :..."
>  Location Symbol  Library                  Interlibrary Loan Status
>     KY     KNV    WESTERN KENTUCKY UNIV               Lender
>
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 11:06:08 -0600, Conrad Bladey ***Peasant**** wrote:
>
> >Checked amazon,b&n, and Library of Congress thus far-
> >nothing.
> >Am interested in locating the book- anyone know of a
> >source
> >or library.....
> >
> >Conrad
> >
> >Gerald Porter wrote:
> >>
> >> "The Cat Pie" is Tommy Armstrong's own song, like "Th' Row in th'Guttor'
> >> mentioned a few lines earlier.  The allegedly true story of how a cat got
> >> baked in a pie (head and all) can be found on page 30 of 'Pollisses and
> >> Candymen: The Complete Works of Tommy Armstrong', edited by Ross Forbes (Tommy
> >> Armstrong Memorial Trust, 1987).   In the seventeenth century, of course, it
> >> was countrymen coming to the cities who got baked into pies. What you
> >> carnivores get up to never ceases to amaze me.
> >>
> >> Gerald Porter (veggie)
> >>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
>      I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)
>
>                           Boycott South Carolina!--
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Hagiographer- If you are a saint we can get you a life!
&  Peasant
and author! Check out Our Guide to the Traditional Irish
Wedding and our Guide
to the Traditional Irish Wake and our Teatime Companion-
http://members.xoom.com/bladocelt/sumord.html More
information:
http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/bladocelt/hutbook.html
and
http://www.bcpl.lib.md.us/~cbladey/hutmanA.html
##############################################################################

B & N does the same thing.The best book finder is bookfinder.com, which searches all the others at one
click. It even includes Amazon, so you can make sure you're not about to pay
$90 for a book you can get in reprint for $12.95.Susan>I noted the same thing for Lloyd's "Folk Song In England" - only one
>copy available on Bibliofind, from France at $37 plus shipping.  Alibris
>lists one copy, 24-day delivery, for $58.  Quite a trick - find
>everything available on the web, list it in your name, and buy it only
>if you get a confirmed sale.  Sure keeps inventory down.
>
>-Don Duncan
>
>__________________________________________________________________
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719-783-2244 * [unmask] * http://www.hungrygulch.com
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