>
>
>Thanks for the information.
>
>
>Question is, in the "colonies" Sousa's marches are known to all, sung by
>all, parodied by all just like this one. So can we consider these as
>having passed into the folk tradition?
>
>Certainly.john garst    [unmask]

On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:43:57 -0700, Bell Michael wrote:>Not sure which list this query belongs on, if either. "CBM" is an old
>tune, but not exactly a song; and certainly not a ballad. I have heard oneCertainly to any Englishman and, I always thought, (I'm trying to be
tactful here with John in mind - trying anyway) to any resident of any land
mass to the north-northwest of France...the consistant code line is:
"Bollocks...and the same to you!"Whether there are more words, I never heard.  I thought this dated to at
least WW I, ie, long predating the mentioned Hitler line.I'd heard from numerous Englishers that its use in "River Quai" was a very
specific and open in-joke.  The prisoners were whistling with great glee,
knowing the words to a man but fully confident the Japanese would not know
them.  This great glee would reflect the Brittish
soldier/prisoner/schoolboys's highest level of practice or the art of "dumb
insolence."  Although not strictly dumb in this case, it's close.
Whistling the single line was (is?) a very common alternate to a simple
vocal "up yours."A great sadness was generally expressed to me that few Americans would get
the joke - a high point of the film - and thus the whole movie could never
be fully appreciated.I'd be much interested and surprised to learn more pre-WW II words.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am now Abby Sale - [unmask]  (But still in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:29:47 EST, [unmask] wrote:>It was used for its evocation of the satirical lines already
>posted. The composer of the original march was Kenneth J Alford whose real
>name was Frederick Joseph Ricketts, (1881 - 1945), British composer and
>bandmaster.Rereading this, I could also question in the single line might pre-date
Alford.  That is, might the March be sort of Variations on a known folk
theme?   Hmm.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am now Abby Sale - [unmask]  (But still in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

Sorry for posting before looking up, but 1998 Ency. Brit. CD gives:"Every course has a par, which is defined as the score an expert (i.e., a
scratch player) would be expected to make, and many courses also have a
bogey, which is defined as the score that a moderately good golfer would be
expected to make. Both par and bogey are defined as errorless play without
flukes and under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the
putting green. Par is essentially a U.S. term that came into use in the
early 1900s as a base for computing handicaps. Bogey is essentially a
British term that came into use in England in 1891 and was derived from a
mythical Colonel Bogey, who was described as uniformly steady but never
overbrilliant. Colloquially in the United States, "bogey" is used to
indicate a score one stroke above par."-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am now Abby Sale - [unmask]  (But still in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

Hi, folks:Joel Mabus chimes in that "Col. Bogey" was neither ASCAP nor BMI; it was, in
fact, SESAC's first big moneymaker. Norm Cohen adds that the copyright was
renewed in 1941 and again (?) in 1943, but he doesn't know its current
copyright status. And Al Grierson notes that the author of Col. B. has many
other fine marches in his oeuvre (my word, not Al's).Peace.
Paul

>
> To avoid being challenged for off-topicaility - does any one think it should
> be remade as a jig?
>
> John Moulden
>
>
John--
Many years ago, I had a square dance band that took perverse delight in
recasting familiar tunes.We did Colonel Bogey both as a jig and a waltz.
Worked fine.

Tunes aren't folkmusic, songs (tunes plus words) clearly are.On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, David Baron wrote:> Thanks for the information.
>
> Question is, in the "colonies" Sousa's marches are known to all, sung by
> all, parodied by all just like this one. So can we consider these as having
> passed into the folk tradition?
>

Well, back in my high school days, the marching band sang (and considered
it old back in the early forties):Bullshit! That's all the band could play
Bullshit! They played it every day
Bullshit! Ta-ra-ra bullshit!
Ta-ra=ra Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!I was surprised and pleased when I discovered the WWII words.dick greenhausOn Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Abby Sale wrote:> On Tue, 15 Feb 2000 19:43:57 -0700, Bell Michael wrote:
>
> >Not sure which list this query belongs on, if either. "CBM" is an old
> >tune, but not exactly a song; and certainly not a ballad. I have heard one
>
> Certainly to any Englishman and, I always thought, (I'm trying to be
> tactful here with John in mind - trying anyway) to any resident of any land
> mass to the north-northwest of France...the consistant code line is:
> "Bollocks...and the same to you!"
>
> Whether there are more words, I never heard.  I thought this dated to at
> least WW I, ie, long predating the mentioned Hitler line.
>
> I'd heard from numerous Englishers that its use in "River Quai" was a very
> specific and open in-joke.  The prisoners were whistling with great glee,
> knowing the words to a man but fully confident the Japanese would not know
> them.  This great glee would reflect the Brittish
> soldier/prisoner/schoolboys's highest level of practice or the art of "dumb
> insolence."  Although not strictly dumb in this case, it's close.
> Whistling the single line was (is?) a very common alternate to a simple
> vocal "up yours."
>
> A great sadness was generally expressed to me that few Americans would get
> the joke - a high point of the film - and thus the whole movie could never
> be fully appreciated.
>
> I'd be much interested and surprised to learn more pre-WW II words.
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
> I am now Abby Sale - [unmask]  (But still in Orlando)
>
>                             Skate free or die!
>

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, dick greenhaus wrote:> Tunes aren't folkmusic, songs (tunes plus words) clearly are.Tunes aren't folkmusic? "Soldier's Joy" isn't folk music? Then what is it?Peace.
Paul

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, dick greenhaus wrote:> > To avoid being challenged for off-topicaility - does any one think it should
> > be remade as a jig?
> >
> Many years ago, I had a square dance band that took perverse delight in
> recasting familiar tunes.We did Colonel Bogey both as a jig and a waltz.
> Worked fine.Something spooky once happened to me -- I was practicing guitar, and fell
asleep while playing "Sellenger's Round", a jig. When I awoke, I was
playing it in 4/4. Strangest feeling. For a dance workshop, when we were
trying to teach the dancers the importance of time signatures, we played
my new version, which I christened "Sellenger's Out of Round". It was
nearly undanceable. The last time through (that particular dance goes
around five times), we switched back to 6/8, and ya shoulda seen them
sail through it.Peace.
Paul

>Hitler has only got one ball,
>        Goering's are very, very small,
>       Himmler -- is somewhat sim'lar,
>        And poor old Goebbels has noebbels at all.
>
>I got to wondering about the kids' satire "Comet, It Makes Your Teeth Turn
>Green" -- is the tune of folk provenance as well as the words?I just read a book published a couple years ago entitled _Greasy Grimy Gopher
Guts: The Subversive Folklore of Childhood_ whose author escapes me. (I just
pawed frantically through my purse for the pub info; I got the information
from Amazon but purchased the book through Howie, my friendly local book
seller.) It covers a number of verses to Colonel Bogey March.Linn

"The Colonel Bogey March" was composed by one Kenneth J. Alford and
published in 1916.  It had acquired a number of obscene verses by WW II,
including a favorite of British Eighth Army troops in North Africa:Hitler has only got one ball.
Goering has two, but very small.
Goebbels is having troubles...Memory fails me.EdOn Wed, 16 Feb 2000, David Baron wrote:> If this is the theme for "Bridge on the River Quai", then I would guess this
> is part of a composed, copyrighted score. From the popularity of this
> excellent film, the various parodies passed into folklore. But then again,
> the composer may have gotten it from folk sources.
>

In a message dated 2/16/00 8:55:50 AM, [unmask] writes:>On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, dick greenhaus wrote:
>
>> Tunes aren't folkmusic, songs (tunes plus words) clearly are.
>
>Tunes aren't folkmusic? "Soldier's Joy" isn't folk music? Then what is
>it?
****************************
I think Dick Greenhaus meant that that particular tune is not folk music, but
that when sung with folk words, it becomes a folksong. Someone has mentioned
Sousa's marches:  to my mind, "The Stars and Stripes Forever"  is not a folk
tune, but the song "Be Kind To Your Friends in  the Swamp"  is certainly a
folksong.Sam

Sorry, Abby, but it ain't that simple.Grose's Classical Dictionary (1810) gives "bogy" as "Ask boy, i.e. ask
mine a-se. _Sea wit._"Partridge's slang dictionary also has "bogy" in military usage as a
mistake or a blunder.  "Bog(e)y" he defines as "the inevitable nickname of
men named Harris," citing military and naval usage.Finally, "Old Bog(e)y" is the devil, dating at least from 1820.So, when Alford named his march "Colonel Bogey," he may have had a number
of different meanings all piled into one name.  A real person, named
Harris, who was given to errors, or perhaps to telling others to kiss his
arse...Lots of delicious possibilities --EdOn Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Abby Sale wrote:> Sorry for posting before looking up, but 1998 Ency. Brit. CD gives:
>
> "Every course has a par, which is defined as the score an expert (i.e., a
> scratch player) would be expected to make, and many courses also have a
> bogey, which is defined as the score that a moderately good golfer would be
> expected to make. Both par and bogey are defined as errorless play without
> flukes and under ordinary weather conditions, allowing two strokes on the
> putting green. Par is essentially a U.S. term that came into use in the
> early 1900s as a base for computing handicaps. Bogey is essentially a
> British term that came into use in England in 1891 and was derived from a
> mythical Colonel Bogey, who was described as uniformly steady but never
> overbrilliant. Colloquially in the United States, "bogey" is used to
> indicate a score one stroke above par."
>
>
> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
> I am now Abby Sale - [unmask]  (But still in Orlando)
>
>                             Skate free or die!
>

To the Colonel Bogey tune:
(I think we got this from Ray Frank, who was raised in the Bronx)Boris, what have you done to me?
Boris, you'll have to marry me!
Boris, we'll name him Morris,
Then there'll be Boris, Morris and me.Sandy Paton

[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/16/00 8:55:50 AM, [unmask] writes:
>
> >On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, dick greenhaus wrote:
> >
> >> Tunes aren't folkmusic, songs (tunes plus words) clearly are.
> >
> >Tunes aren't folkmusic? "Soldier's Joy" isn't folk music? Then what is
> >it?
> ****************************
> I think Dick Greenhaus meant that that particular tune is not folk music, but
> that when sung with folk words, it becomes a folksong. Someone has mentioned
> Sousa's marches:  to my mind, "The Stars and Stripes Forever"  is not a folk
> tune, but the song "Be Kind To Your Friends in  the Swamp"  is certainly a
> folksong.
>
> SamAdd to the above: "Oh, the monkey wrapped his tail around the
flagpole...etc."
        Sandy

Folks:There are literally hundreds of folk parodies in circulation, a good
number of them rather obscene.  The tunes may not be traditional, but the
songs/parodies certainly are.Ed

>Folks:
>
>There are literally hundreds of folk parodies in circulation, a good
>number of them rather obscene.  The tunes may not be traditional, but the
>songs/parodies certainly are.A selection is given in the Pancakes' Praire Home Companion Folk Song Book,
although these tend to be reasonably "pure."john garst    [unmask]

Oops--there's a problem with being over-terse. The question referred to
specific march tunes to which words had been fitted. My response should
have read These tunes aren't etc.Of course, the whole discussion hinges on what is folk music.dick (red-faced) greenhausOn Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Paul J. Stamler wrote:> On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> > Tunes aren't folkmusic, songs (tunes plus words) clearly are.
>
> Tunes aren't folkmusic? "Soldier's Joy" isn't folk music? Then what is it?
>
> Peace.
> Paul
>

In a message dated 16/02/2000  16:37:47, you write:<< John--
 Many years ago, I had a square dance band that took perverse delight in
 recasting familiar tunes.We did Colonel Bogey both as a jig and a waltz.
 Worked fine. >>I'm glad to hear that perversity persists.John

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we talking about the tune which
is also used for "post time" at horse-race tracks around this country,
if not the world?  And if it is the same tune, is the swirly part in
the middle (that you can't sing the various sets of words to) a later
composition or part of the original march?

There is a lengthy discussion of this song in Martin Page: "Kiss me goodnight
Sergeant Major" - The Songs and Ballads of World War II (Hart-Davis
Fitzgibbon, London 1973) pages 38-42.There was a correspondence in the New Statesman in the spring of 1973. It
began with an insistence that the autopsy on Hitler's body had proved the
truth of the verse. However, it was not known, since the verse had been known
in circulation as early as 1940, how or whether this had been known to the
songs anonymous author. It was speculated that Unity Mitford had discovered
the fact and passed it to the British who then composed the song as it in a
morale boosting exercise. Michael Flanders - and one can hardly say whether
he invented or dicovered these - pointed to antecedants - Kaiser Bill has
only got one pill, Oom Paul has only got one ball and General Smuts has lost
one of his nuts - (I haven't checked on the authenticity of any of these and
strongly doubt it) - I think the rest of the account is fantasy except that
one lady conveyed to Page that in about 1938 she had encountered a Czech lady
refugee who confided that it was well known that Hitler was "quite mad", that
he had been wounded in the first world war, since when "ihm felt einer" - "he
lacks one". Page reports that the rumour had been widespread in central
Europe throughout the 1930s.However, it also appears that there was a rhyme about an American Trade Union
leader which began - Arthur Hall has only got one ball (No more is quoted -
any hope of more).Finally, it was reported that the song (even further emasculated) had reached
school playgrounds in the form:Hitlerhas only got one ball
The other is in the old town hall,
His mother she pinched the other,
Now Hitler ain't got none at all.However, in among all this jollity came the sober suggestion that the usual
English pronunciation of Goebbels made its rhyming with No balls inevitable
and the rest followed.John Moulden

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 [unmask] wrote:> There was a correspondence in the New Statesman in the spring of
> 1973. It began with an insistence that the autopsy on Hitler's body
> had proved the truth of the verse. However, it was not known, since
> the verse had been known in circulation as early as 1940, how or
> whether this had been known to the songs anonymous author.Oddly enough, this story is known to be false.  I did not keep the
reference, but I read in a reliable place that Hitler's childhood
family doctor (who was Jewish) emigrated to the U.S. and was
interviewed on this subject during the war.  He stated that Hitler's
genitals were normal.---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  If it moves, fondle it, except porcupines, ball lightning,  :||
||:  and policemen.                                              :||

In a message dated 16/02/2000  21:33:52, you write:<< Oddly enough, this story is known to be false.  I did not keep the
 reference, but I read in a reliable place that Hitler's childhood
 family doctor (who was Jewish) emigrated to the U.S. and was
 interviewed on this subject during the war.  He stated that Hitler's
 genitals were normal. >>It was false, yes, he was complete in childhood, but what about the World War
1 story?John Moulden

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, dick greenhaus wrote:> Tunes aren't folkmusicNot even _fiddle_ tunes?---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  In the program of life, every line is a workaround and  :||
||:  contains a bug.                                         :||

[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 16/02/2000  21:33:52, you write:
>
> << Oddly enough, this story is known to be false.  I did not keep the
>  reference, but I read in a reliable place that Hitler's childhood
>  family doctor (who was Jewish) emigrated to the U.S. and was
>  interviewed on this subject during the war.  He stated that Hitler's
>  genitals were normal. >>
>
> It was false, yes, he was complete in childhood, but what about the World War
> 1 story?Possible.  According to Enc. Brit., he served in the German Army in WWI,
was wounded in 1916, and gassed in 1918.  He was born in 1889, and moved
to Germany (Munich) in 1913.-Don Duncan

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> Finally, "Old Bog(e)y" is the devil, dating at least from 1820.As in the bogeyman, or boogieman, or maybe the bogle bo...> So, when Alford named his march "Colonel Bogey," he may have had a number
> of different meanings all piled into one name.  A real person, named
> Harris, who was given to errors, or perhaps to telling others to kiss his
> arse...
>
> Lots of delicious possibilities --Given that last sentence, I'm not sure delicious is the word I'd use.
Still, chacun a son gout, y'all.Peace.
Paul

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 [unmask] wrote:> There was a correspondence in the New Statesman in the spring of 1973. It
> began with an insistence that the autopsy on Hitler's body had proved the
> truth of the verse. However, it was not known, since the verse had been known
> in circulation as early as 1940, how or whether this had been known to the
> songs anonymous author. It was speculated that Unity Mitford had discovered
> the fact and passed it to the British who then composed the song as it in a
> morale boosting exercise. Michael Flanders - and one can hardly say whether
> he invented or dicovered these - pointed to antecedants - Kaiser Bill has
> only got one pill, Oom Paul has only got one ball and General Smuts has lost
> one of his nuts - (I haven't checked on the authenticity of any of these and
> strongly doubt it) - I think the rest of the account is fantasy except that
> one lady conveyed to Page that in about 1938 she had encountered a Czech lady
> refugee who confided that it was well known that Hitler was "quite mad", that
> he had been wounded in the first world war, since when "ihm felt einer" - "he
> lacks one". Page reports that the rumour had been widespread in central
> Europe throughout the 1930s.Somewhere in the stacks of the St. Louis Public Library is a book which
is a psychological profile of Hitler, I believe compiled during the war.
The one-ball story is in it, along with accounts of some sexual
preferences that made one hope he had a good dry-cleaner. How the story
got out is a hell of a good question.And, by the way, when was Hitler autopsied? My understanding was that
after he shot himself, his cronies burned his body outside the
Chancellory, and it was not recovered. Or am I all wet, as he liked to be?Peace.
Paul

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

Joe-
I think I explained my awkward prose a couple of posts back. HOWEVER,
you've got me thinking. The melody of Colonel Bogie (that's the spelling I
recall from my marching band days) is known to many
         a)thru the oral/aural tradition
         b)who don't know who composed it, and could care less
         c)who have modified it to suit their own folkish needsMaybe it is folkmusic.dickOn Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Joseph C Fineman wrote:> On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, dick greenhaus wrote:
>
> > Tunes aren't folkmusic
>
> Not even _fiddle_ tunes?
>
> ---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]
>
> ||:  In the program of life, every line is a workaround and  :||
> ||:  contains a bug.                                         :||
>

A conference is being organised in Valencia in May 26-8 on urban
(non-religious) musical production in early modern Europe (they don't say how
they define 'early modern', but I'd guess pre-1700).  Conference languages are
English, Spanish and Catalan: many guest speakers seem to be coming from
London.
The conference web page is:
>http://www.uv.es/~calvoc/francoit/musica/index.htmGerald Porter

On 2/17/00, David Baron wrote:>Is this really a relevant and important thread?
>
>Yes, the old "Whistle while you work/Hitler is a jerk/Mussolini bit his ...." is "folk" but how many BALLADS about this monster have passed in to folk tradition? What he did was just too horrible (Yes, Irving, it DID happen!). Broadsides glorifying (G-d forbid) or denouncing? Anyone seen one lately?What's your definition of a ballad? I don't like dirty songs, either
(as opposed to bawdy songs, which are a whole different kettle of
fish. Or, rather, a larger kettle with different and larger contents).
But they are *assuredly* legitimate folk songs, and they talk about
Hitler and his experiences. That's a traditional song that tells a
story. That's *my* definition of a ballad.It doesn't matter if the songs are current (though I suspect they
are, given that there are many WWII veterans still alive). Many --
probably the strong majority -- of the ballads in the Child collection
are dead in tradition. Some, such as "Judas" and several of the
Robin Hood ballads, show no evidence of *ever* having been traditional.
We talk about them anyway. Why should we take exception to songs
about Hitler because they are about Hitler.I also have to disagree with the statement that Hitler's memory
should be blotted out. I would be thrilled if Hitler had never
existed -- the behaviors of the Nazis make me sick to my stomach.
But they *happened*. We must not forget; we must remember, so
that we never let his happen again! "Those who ignore history
are doomed to repeat it."Admittedly, from the standpoint of history, we don't need to know
anything about Hitler's sexual habits. (I, for one, have been
paying very little attention to this thread.) But you can't draw
the line. The songs we are discussing show that people already
despised Hitler *before* the concentration camps were liberated.
They are legitimate historical monuments, even though they don't
contain any actual history.Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> Finally, "Old Bog(e)y" is the devil, dating at least from 1820.
>
>As in the bogeyman, or boogieman, or maybe the bogle bo...
>
> So, when Alford named his march "Colonel Bogey," he may have had a number
> of different meanings all piled into one name.  A real person, named
> Harris, who was given to errors, or perhaps to telling others to kiss his
> arse...
>
No (I think) if it actually uses the term "Colonel Bogey," it must refer to
the mythical stock character, "Colonel Bogey."  (There's also the Brit.
stock character, ""Colonel Blimp" who has nothing to do with flying
machines, but maybe they were named after his shape.)Although "bogey" alone might be researched in OED, etc., once it was
connected to "Colonel," a specific reference is created - the stodgy man.Going back to the 1910 Ency. Brit., the golf reference is not aware of
American usage - bogey score is used as a standard.  One man may play a
solo game against bogey score (or number of holes above/below it for
competition.)  If played solo, a man may be said to have Colonel Bogey as
his opponent.  (I guess that since there's no such term as 'colonel-ess,
women can't play solo.)  Point is that in 1911, the book seems to assume
that everyone will be familiar with "Colonel Bogey" and no explanation is
needed.Of little to no importance, 'bogey' as spectre expands to a ref to any
horse that might shy at spectres and from there to 'hesitate' or 'bungle.'
That, of course, brings us back to the Colonel.(Origin may be Welsh 'bwg' and spelling may be bogey, bogy, boggle,
bogart[!] or bug - but not bogie.)-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am now Abby Sale - [unmask]  (But still in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

Dear friends,I have the sad news that Derroll Adams (the "banjoman" that Donovan sang
of) died last week in Belgium.  While he spent the last several decades in
Europe, many of you might recall him playing with Jack Elliott.  "Portland
Town" was written by Derroll, and for my nickle his quiet way of playing it
beat hands-down anything produced by the Kingston Trio or Joan Baez.  Also,
apparently he was instrumental (along with Ramblin Jack) for in inspiring
the Skiffle wave in Gt. Britain, but of that I know less.He was a really great, quiet, banjo player."I wish i was a rock,
sittin all alone ..."Peace,DavidDavid G. Engleemail:  [unmask]
web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
        http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang        The Traditional Ballad Index:
        http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html---

David:Sad. Sad.  Inevitably, the ranks of the "first generation" are thinning.EdOn Thu, 17 Feb 2000, David G. Engle wrote:> Dear friends,
>
> I have the sad news that Derroll Adams (the "banjoman" that Donovan sang
> of) died last week in Belgium.  While he spent the last several decades in
> Europe, many of you might recall him playing with Jack Elliott.  "Portland
> Town" was written by Derroll, and for my nickle his quiet way of playing it
> beat hands-down anything produced by the Kingston Trio or Joan Baez.  Also,
> apparently he was instrumental (along with Ramblin Jack) for in inspiring
> the Skiffle wave in Gt. Britain, but of that I know less.
>
> He was a really great, quiet, banjo player.
>
> "I wish i was a rock,
> sittin all alone ..."
>
> Peace,
>
> David
>
> David G. Engle
>
> email:  [unmask]
> web:    http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore
>         http://www.csufresno.edu/forlang
>
>         The Traditional Ballad Index:
>         http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html
>
> ---
>

On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 [unmask] wrote:> In a message dated 16/02/2000  21:33:52, you write:
>
> << Oddly enough, this story is known to be false.  I did not keep the
>  reference, but I read in a reliable place that Hitler's childhood
>  family doctor (who was Jewish) emigrated to the U.S. and was
>  interviewed on this subject during the war.  He stated that
>  Hitler's genitals were normal. >>
>
> It was false, yes, he was complete in childhood, but what about the
> World War 1 story?That one I have not heard.---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  We have had artificial _foolishness_ for a long time.  :||

In a message dated 17/02/2000  19:11:17, you write:<< > It was false, yes, he was complete in childhood, but what about the
 > World War 1 story? That one I have not heard. >>The story appears to have been current in Europe since around 1930 that
Hitler had been part gelded as the result of a World  War 1 wound. There is a
story, perhaps apocryphal that Unity Mitford, generally thought to be a Nazi
sympathiser, was in fact a British spy, that she detected the lack and
reported it to the British establishment who had the song devised. (Martin
Page: Kiss me Goodnight Sergeant Major)Apologies to those for whom this is repetition.John Moulden

Sorry folks.Private message to Porter, Gerald, who will probably be the last to
read it! Pavlovian reaction at seeing his name as sender - forgot
about distribution syndrome.At least I'm not the only one, or the first...or the last...?

At Mudcat, Wolfgang coincidentally posted the following, taken from the
major German folk song and volklieder site, "10,000 Volkslieder"No additional info if given"Hitler has only got one ball"Melody - "Colonel Bogey March"                               England 1939-1940                       Hitler, he only had one ball,
                       Goering, he had two but very small,
                       Himmler had something simmler,
                       But poor old Goebbels had no balls at all.                       Whistle Chorus:                       Frankfurt has only one beer hall,
                       Stuttgart, die München all on call,
                       Munich, vee lift our tunich,
                       To show vee 'Cherman' have no balls at all.                       Whistle Chorus:                       Hans Otto is very short, not tall,
                       And blotto, for drinking Singhai and Skol.
                       A 'Cherman', unlike Bruce Erwin,
                       Because Hans Otto has no balls at all.                       Whistle Chorus:-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am now Abby Sale - [unmask]  (But still in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

>...The composer of the original march was Kenneth J Alford whose real
>name was Frederick Joseph Ricketts, (1881 - 1945), British composer and
>bandmaster....>J. MoultrieNow the tune, separate from any words, is in oral tradition, so it *is* a
folk tune.john garst    [unmask]

In a message dated 18/02/2000  16:14:25, you write:<< >...The composer of the original march was Kenneth J Alford whose real
 >name was Frederick Joseph Ricketts, (1881 - 1945), British composer and
 >bandmaster.... >J. Moultrie >>Now, how did that happen?John Moulden

>In a message dated 18/02/2000  16:14:25, you write:
>
><< >...The composer of the original march was Kenneth J Alford whose real
> >name was Frederick Joseph Ricketts, (1881 - 1945), British composer and
> >bandmaster....
>
>
>
>
>
> >J. Moultrie >>
>
>Now, how did that happen?
>
>John MouldenSloppy proofreading, of course.  Sorry.  Excuse: Moultrie is a town in
Georgia, where I live (but not in Moultrie).john garst    [unmask]

>                               England 1939-1940
>
>                       Hitler, he only had one ball,
>                       Goering, he had two but very small,
>                       Himmler had something simmler,
>                       But poor old Goebbels had no balls at all.
>
>                       Whistle Chorus:
>
>The version we sang in school (New South Wales, Australia in the 60's)
   had only one verse and went:
                       Hitler, he only had one ball,
                       Goering, he had two but very small,
                       Flinders. burnt his to cinders
                       And the nobles had no balls at allMathew Flinders was an early white period Australian explorer.  None of us
knew who Goering was and the last line looks like one of the transmitters
did not know who Goebbels was either!  I'd be curious to see what verse is
being sung now.regards
MartinJust as an aside, my spell checker has just failed to recognise "Hitler",
"Goering" and "Goebbles"!

Folks:Sandy Paton deems it too commercial to post this announcement on ballad-l.I don't.Ed---------- Forwarded message ----------...By the way, let me take this oportunity to announce a 21 cut CD
assembled from my various field recordings over the past forty-plus
years. "Songs and Ballads of Tradition" (Folk-Legacy CD-125) includes
traditional material sung by Jeannie Robertson and Lizzie Higgins
(Scotland, 1958), James Brown, Joe Estey and Marie Hare (New Brunswick,
Canada), Lawrence Older (Adirondacks), Grant Rogers (Catskills), Frank
Proffitt, Lee Monroe Presnell and Dave Thompson (North Carolina), Vern
Smelser (Indiana), Harriet Griffin and William Harrison Burnett
(Arkansas). I hope to do another volume later, when the finances are
available.<http://www.folklegacy.com>

On Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> Sandy Paton deems it too commercial to post this announcement on ballad-l.Yow -- sounds like a wonderful recording! Thanks, Sandy, for doing this,
and thanks, Ed, for letting us know.Peace.
Paul

Hi-
Am sitting here listening to the CD as I type--A superb job! Jeannie
Robertson, Frank Proffitt, Lawrence Older, Joe Estey, Lizzie Higgins, Lee
Presnel, Dave Thompson, James Brown, Vern Smelser, Marie Hare, William
Burnett, Mrs. Miner Griffin, Grant Rogers...all on a clean, clear
recording. No gimmickry; no french horns, electric instruments or
echo chambers. Just wonderful singing, from wonderful singers. Along with
a very fat booklet with background and lyrics.
        It's Folk-Legacy CD-125. My congratulations, Sandy and Caroline!dick greenhausOn Sat, 19 Feb 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> Folks:
>
> Sandy Paton deems it too commercial to post this announcement on ballad-l.
>
> I don't.
>
> Ed
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
> ...By the way, let me take this oportunity to announce a 21 cut CD
> assembled from my various field recordings over the past forty-plus
> years. "Songs and Ballads of Tradition" (Folk-Legacy CD-125) includes
> traditional material sung by Jeannie Robertson and Lizzie Higgins
> (Scotland, 1958), James Brown, Joe Estey and Marie Hare (New Brunswick,
> Canada), Lawrence Older (Adirondacks), Grant Rogers (Catskills), Frank
> Proffitt, Lee Monroe Presnell and Dave Thompson (North Carolina), Vern
> Smelser (Indiana), Harriet Griffin and William Harrison Burnett
> (Arkansas). I hope to do another volume later, when the finances are
> available.
>
> <http://www.folklegacy.com>
>

On Fri, Feb 18, 2000 at 09:20:36AM -0500, Abby Sale wrote:> At Mudcat, Wolfgang coincidentally posted the following, taken from the
> major German folk song and volklieder site, "10,000 Volkslieder"
>
> No additional info if given
>
> "Hitler has only got one ball"
>
> Melody - "Colonel Bogey March"
>
>
>                                England 1939-1940
>
>                        Hitler, he only had one ball,
>                        Goering, he had two but very small,
>                        Himmler had something simmler,
>                        But poor old Goebbels had no balls at all.        So far, nobody has mentioned one of the first versions which I
heard, in which the first line is:                        "A-dolph, he only has one ball"which seems to scan a lot better.  The other differences are that it was
all in the present tense, and the last line read:                        "And Goebbels has no balls at all"(No hint of sorrow for him, which seems more appropriate for a wartime
version.)        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

I'm happy to hear about this, and I hope that the future will bring CD
reissues of all of the Folk Legacy field recordings, including, perhaps,
some that have never been released.>Folks:
>
>Sandy Paton deems it too commercial to post this announcement on ballad-l.
>
>I don't.
>
>Ed
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>
>...By the way, let me take this oportunity to announce a 21 cut CD
>assembled from my various field recordings over the past forty-plus
>years. "Songs and Ballads of Tradition" (Folk-Legacy CD-125) includes
>traditional material sung by Jeannie Robertson and Lizzie Higgins
>(Scotland, 1958), James Brown, Joe Estey and Marie Hare (New Brunswick,
>Canada), Lawrence Older (Adirondacks), Grant Rogers (Catskills), Frank
>Proffitt, Lee Monroe Presnell and Dave Thompson (North Carolina), Vern
>Smelser (Indiana), Harriet Griffin and William Harrison Burnett
>(Arkansas). I hope to do another volume later, when the finances are
>available.
>
><http://www.folklegacy.com>john garst    [unmask]

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

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In a message dated 20/02/2000  08:41:45, you write:<< What I meant was dwealing these jingles with such reverance is bit much.
The man and his legacy is and was no joke. >>I don't think reverence is the right word - at risk of being defensive, I
think that any thing that I have said on this subject has been said with care
- with regard to the accurate - and I have not detected reverence in anyone
else's comments. Besides, the song has an existence of its own, as the result
of transmission through a large number of minds which have a greater or
lesser knowledge or concern for Hitler's actions. In researching the song,
the most I am doing is to make a political commentary; if I behave
politically in doing so, I run the risk of even greater distortion than usual.One needs to take several times more care in researching and discussing a
subject which one finds abhorrent.John Moulden

On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, David Baron wrote in part:> I would not mind seeing ballads and such that come out of the Third Reich,
> the war, etc.
>
> What I meant was dwealing these jingles with such reverance is bit much. The
> man and his legacy is and was no joke.
>
There are any number of good socio-political reasons to deal with jingles
such as "Hitler Has Only One Ball."Total war requires total support.  Such a rhyme, even trickling to
children, suggests how great was the war effort during WW II.  Would you
have us not look at the Almanacs "Round and Round Hitler's Grave" as well?
(Doggerel at best, but significant in demonstrating just how complete was
the bouleversement of the CP after Operation Barbarosa.)Then there is the question of children's attitudes.  The Opies have
written about this, notably in _The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren._
So too Ian Turner in _Cinderella Dressed in Yellow._Finally, there is the continuing process, lamented by Bertrand Bronson, of
later generations making mock of the ballads held dearest by their
forebearers.  Could it be it is not only in balladry?Ed

In a message dated 2/20/00 2:57:12 AM EST, [unmask] writes:>  Frederick Joseph Ricketts -- is the hornpipe his, too?Highly unlikely -- I believe it dates from the early 19th century.Peace.
Paul

[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/20/00 2:57:12 AM EST, [unmask] writes:
>
> >  Frederick Joseph Ricketts -- is the hornpipe his, too?
>
> Highly unlikely -- I believe it dates from the early 19th century.
>
> Peace.
> PaulI haven't seen an 18th century copy, but it is found in the early 19th
century with name sometimes given as 'Richer's Hornpipe', i.e., in
'Riley's Flute Melodies' I, #7, New York (1814).Bruce OlsonMy website: www.erols.com/olsonw <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Ruairidh Grieg asked about source recordings, to which Paul J. Stamler
replied:Look for recordings from the "Southern Journey" series of field
recordings by Alan Lomax, now being reissued on Rounder. Also obtain a
catalog from Smithsonian/Folkways of their reissues of the Folkways
label. You need to sort through that one carefully to separate out the
source singers from revivalists, some of whom may sing in more
contemporary styles, but there are treasures there. Their website:http://www.si.edu/folkwaysA few gems:Horton Barker: Traditional Singer
Clarence Ashley: The Original Folkways Recordings
Dock Boggs: The Folkways Years
Dillard Chandler: The End of an Old Folksong
Roscoe Holcomb: The High Lonesome Sound
Frank Proffitt: Sings Folk Songs
Doug & Jack Wallin: Family Songs & Stories from the North Carolina Mountains
Various artists: Old Love Songs & Ballads from the Big Laurel, North CarolinaActually we are doubly blessed by mad-as-a-hatter Rounder, which is
re-releasing the Library of Congress' 1942 et seq. series of field
recordings, starting with _Anglo-American Ballads_, Vol. I (Rounder 1511).
This has such unsurpassed gems as Texas Gladden singing "The House
Carpenter" (Child 243); Woody Guthrie's "The Gypsy Davy" (Child 200), E.C.
Ball's "Pretty Polly" (learned from a commercially released 78 yet!),
etc., etc.  The liner notes are exceptional.Ed

On a followthrough, I again asked Wolfgang at Mudcat if he had any other
knowledge of Hitler's balls.  He's not a historian but passes on what is
common knowledge.>Hitler having had only one ball seems to be treated in Germany as an urban
>legend (most probably false, but could be true nevertheless). However, we
>joke about that story like this:>There's an infamous line from that time: Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer
>and we now cite it as "Ein Volk, ein Ei, ein Führer" (Ei: usually egg,
>here 'ball').So truth-in-folksong has emerged again.  If Hitler, in some ethereal
reality, had two balls, it is clear that now he only has one.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am now Abby Sale - [unmask]  (But still in Orlando)                          Boycott South Carolina!

Hi folks:A relay from the British ballads list:Does anyone know if Alan Lomax collected songs from Luther Stanley of
Barrow on Humber, Lincolnshire, England, and if so what were they?Ruiridh Greig

A friend had collected some records of traditional music when she was in
France, but a few years later a roomate's dog ate them (literally - many
of the covers are illegible).  She'd like to find some of this material,
and describes her needs as follows:"Joseph Canteloube, a French composer, collected a lot  of folk material
and used
it in his compositions, much like Vaughn Williams.  He is best known for his
"Chants de l'Auvergne".  What I would like to know is if there is a
source for
the original folk material he collected.  I tried a couple of times on
the web,
but all I got was sources to buy recordings of Chants de l'Auvergne.
It's ok
with me if the resources are in French.  And if not Canteloube, then who
is the
French version of Child or Cecil Sharp et. al.?  Is this enough of a
description?  I can't tell you anything further, because I don't know anything
further..."Does this ring any bells?  Can anyone help?-Don Duncan

In a message dated 22/02/2000  03:40:45, you write:<< A relay from the British ballads list: >>I ought to know the address of this and I don't think I do - can you help,
please?John Moulden

I believe Paul is referring to the International Ballad Commission
list, which is currently hosted in Britain.  (At least Ruairidh's
message came through on the IBC list yesterday.)For anyone interested, the list address is [unmask] and
you can subscribe at http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/ballads/Cheers
Jamie

Conrad Laforte of Universiti Laval in Quebec (now retired) was the most
recent cataloguer of French material.  He has published a great deal,
but I'm afraid I only know _of_ his work, so I can't tell you much
about it.  I do know that it covers European tradition, not just Quebec.The Laval library gives the following as his two most recent
classificatory works:Poitiques de la chanson traditionnelle frangaise : classification de la
chanson folklorique frangaise / 2e id.  Sainte-Foy : Presses de
l'Universiti Laval, 1993.Chansons de facture midiivale retrouvies dans la tradition orale :
ripertoire recueilli de 1852 ` nos jours / Conrad Laforte. Pricidi
d'une Analyse des milodies canadiennes des chansons en laisse / par
Robert Kelher.  [Quibec] : Nuit blanche iditeur, [1997]You should post this request to the IBC list, as there are a few French
and Belgian members of the Commission who would probably have good
leads for you.Cheers
Jamie

I'm looking for older books on singing games, particularly for children.
 I know about Botkin's "The American Play-Party Game", and the games in
books like Linscott's "Folk Songs of Old New England" and Jean Ritchie's
books. [Also contemporary books from the CDSS]I seem to recall a reference to woman who did major collections in
England around the end of the last century.  Anyone have references or recommendations?-Don Duncan

On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Donald A. Duncan wrote:> I'm looking for older books on singing games, particularly for children.
>  I know about Botkin's "The American Play-Party Game", and the games in
> books like Linscott's "Folk Songs of Old New England" and Jean Ritchie's
> books. [Also contemporary books from the CDSS]
>
> I seem to recall a reference to woman who did major collections in
> England around the end of the last century.  Anyone have references or recommendations?
>
> -Don Duncan
>
Don et al:There are any number of books on singing games.  Without reference to my
library, I can think of the following:1) William Wells Newell, _Songs and Games of American Children_ (2 vols)
still in print from Dover;2) Leah Wolford, _The Play Party in Indiana_ (2 editions, the second of
which may be available)3) Bessie Jones and Bess Lomax Hawes (title?)4) Alan Lomax, _There's a Brown Girl in the Ring_5) William Koch, Unsure of title, but may be Folklore of Kansas6) Iona and Peter Opie, Singing Games of English Schoolchildren (title?)7) Volume I of the Frank C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore
has a section on singing games edited, memory serving, by Paul Brewster8) Who includes some singing games in his _Folksongs of Indiana._And finally, the English lady about whom you ask is Alice Gomme.  Hers is
a two-volume work entitled something like Games and Songs of Children.I apologize for the faulty memory. (I am not in my home office so cannot
check titles and I have not written about children's lore for some time.)If any of these titles elude you, let me know.  I will provide specifics.Ed

>And finally, the English lady about whom you ask is Alice Gomme.  Hers is
>a two-volume work entitled something like Games and Songs of Children.Good news is that Lady Alice B. Gomme's *The Tradtional Games of England,
Scotland, and Ireland*, originally published in two volumes in 1894-1898,
was republished by Thames and Hudson in 1984. I don't know if her *English
Singing Games* was also reprinted. Well worth reading if you're looking for
singing games!Jeff Kallen
Trinity College DublinP.S. Also of interest (but less well known) is Alice Kane's *Songs and
Sayings of an Ulster Childhood* (edited by Edith Fowke, and published in
1983 by Wolfhound Press).

In a message dated 22/02/2000  16:58:09, you write:<< P.S. Also of interest (but less well known) is Alice Kane's *Songs and
 Sayings of an Ulster Childhood* (edited by Edith Fowke, and published in
 1983 by Wolfhound Press). >>But also in Toronto by McClelland and Stewart , 1983.John Moulden

Just to turn away from Hitler's well-hungedness, a couple of years a
student asked if she could sign up for a course but to do personal
research instead of attending sessions because she had just won a
scholarship to Berlin. I said yes, so long as - hoping for something to
come out of it - she did work on songs about postwar Allied occupation,
either in English or in German. I have no reason to suspect that she did
not try to find something, but she said there was absolutely nothing.The present thread reminds me, and I wondered if anyone could provide
anything.Andy (This time intending to send to entire group!)> David Baron wrote:
>
> Point well made.
>
> I would not mind seeing ballads and such that come out of the Third
> Reich, the war, etc.
>
> What I meant was dwealing these jingles with such reverance is bit
> much. The man and his legacy is and was no joke.

Alice Gomme's The Traditional Games of England, Scotland & Ireland (1894/98)
was also reprinted by Dover in 1964. It is a wonderful resource for game
descriptions and texts, but the commentary and historical analysis is
hopelessly out-of-date and should not be relied on!
The book by Iona & Peter Opie is The Singing Game (Oxford U.P. 1985) and is
the standard work for the recent singing game repertoire.
There are lots of other books and articles as well as those mentioned by
others here.
Donald, if you send me your Email address I can send you a bibliography of
children's folklore which, although not up to date, includes most of the
important earlier British & American references.
Steve Roud ([unmask])> On Tue, 22 Feb 2000, Donald A. Duncan wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for older books on singing games, particularly for children.
> >  I know about Botkin's "The American Play-Party Game", and the games in
> > books like Linscott's "Folk Songs of Old New England" and Jean Ritchie's
> > books. [Also contemporary books from the CDSS]
> >
> > I seem to recall a reference to woman who did major collections in
> > England around the end of the last century.  Anyone have references or
recommendations?
> >
> > -Don Duncan
> >

Canteloube published his "Anthologie des Chants Populaires Francais"
in four volumes in 1951, a collection of some 1500 or more French
folk songs, arranged regionally. Notes on individual songs are fairly
sketchy. I believe that he did collect the Auvergne songs himself but
that the majority of the book represents the work of other
collectors. (I'm far from sure on this, however). Many folksong
interpreters have delved into these books much as we might go to
Bronson, Lomax or Peter Kennedy, but AFAIK there are no recordings
specifically related to them, with the exception of course of
Canteloube's own orchestral settings. Unfortunately the books would
not be easy to find, but that's probably the closest thing to a
source book.For recordings, 3-4 years ago Marc Robine & Gabriel Yacoub organized
many of the present-day French singers of traditional songs to do an
extensive 15-CD recording project, the "Anthologie de la Chanson
Francaise" on EPM. These are recordings made with "modern folk"
sensibilities, accompaniments from bagpipes to saxophone to banjo.
There's a songbook included with the boxed set; individual CDs are
also available under the rubric "La Chanson Traditionelle." (The CDs
are arranged thematically). I've also seen a single CD selection in
the local Borders. They're all published in France, so they might be
difficult to find, but probably much easier than the Canteloube book
since they are still in print.Rounder might have already reissued the France volume of the old
Columbia World Library of Primitive Music series (part of the ongoing
Alan Lomax deal) but I haven't seen it yet.Hope this helps.John Roberts.>A friend had collected some records of traditional music when she was in
>France, but a few years later a roomate's dog ate them (literally - many
>of the covers are illegible).  She'd like to find some of this material,
>and describes her needs as follows:
>
>"Joseph Canteloube, a French composer, collected a lot  of folk material
>and used
>it in his compositions, much like Vaughn Williams.  He is best known for his
>"Chants de l'Auvergne".  What I would like to know is if there is a
>source for
>the original folk material he collected.  I tried a couple of times on
>the web,
>but all I got was sources to buy recordings of Chants de l'Auvergne.
>It's ok
>with me if the resources are in French.  And if not Canteloube, then who
>is the
>French version of Child or Cecil Sharp et. al.?  Is this enough of a
>description?  I can't tell you anything further, because I don't know anything
>further..."
>
>Does this ring any bells?  Can anyone help?
>
>-Don Duncan

I purchased this Anthologie de la Chanson Francaise(15 CDs) at Tower Records a
couple of years ago.  They also  carried the single CDs.  The song book (three
inches thick and not included with the set) I ordered through a friend in
France.  There was another booklet with the CDs, but it definitely did not
include tunes.The question I continue to ask around is:  where can one purchase recordings of
traditional French ballads?  I am particularly interested recordings of Jacques
Douai who was popular back in my "salad days" in Paris.  I know he performed at
Wolf Trap here near Washington, D.C. ten or fifteen years ago, but don't know if
he is still alive.  Or whether he has recorded since 1954.

On Tue, 22 Feb 2000 [unmask] wrote:> In a message dated 22/02/2000  03:40:45, you write:
>
> << A relay from the British ballads list: >>
>
> I ought to know the address of this and I don't think I do - can you help,
> please?Yes, it is really an international list, although based in Britain. Send
a message to:[unmask]The body of the message should read:join ballads Your NamePostings thereafter go to:[unmask]Activity is sporadic, like this list, but interesting.Peace.
Paul

Quoth Steve Roud (hi, Steve):
> Donald, if you send me your Email address I can send you a bibliography of
> children's folklore which, although not up to date, includes most of the
> important earlier British & American references.
> Steve Roud ([unmask])        Unless it's awfully long (hence likely to be rejected by
some folkses' servers), you might post it to the list instead. Please?
(Yes, I *am* insatiable!) -- aloha, Lani<||>            Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Avenue, Richmond CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

Quoth John Roberts (in part):
> Canteloube published his "Anthologie des Chants Populaires Francais"
> in four volumes in 1951, a collection of some 1500 or more French
...
> Canteloube's own orchestral settings. Unfortunately the books would
> not be easy to find, but that's probably the closest thing to a
> source book.> For recordings, 3-4 years ago Marc Robine & Gabriel Yacoub organized
> many of the present-day French singers of traditional songs to do an
> extensive 15-CD recording project, the "Anthologie de la Chanson
...
> the local Borders. They're all published in France, so they might be
> difficult to find, but probably much easier than the Canteloube book
> since they are still in print.        The Robine collection set comes (or came) with a book of lyrics,
in French of course, but I don't remember much in the way of documentation
or source references. The recordings seemed to me to be tertiary sources,
pop-folk singers' versions -- for the obvious reasons (the compilers' and
publisher's indolence and, perhaps, desire for uniformity and Control of
production and product, as well as an understandable economic motive, to
employ relatively well-known singers whose names might help sell the
expensive set of 15 CDs. Best I can say of the collection is that it's
extensive and ambitious as well. (Think "early Joan Baez" if you want my
impression of the artists, though that may insult Joan!)        I can't say that the couple of American recordings of pieces of
the Canteloube collection/settings are any improvement. I'll have to dig
up the exact recording references, but: Susan Reed, plus a couple of others
of similar vintage. All on LP.
        Caveat: I spend much of my copious free time listening to scratchy,
noisy old field recordings. Not, I regret, maintaining and updating my
reference files ...!        I did look up my copies of Joseph Canteloube: Anthologie des chants
populaires franc,ais, 4 vols. Paris: Durand & Cie, 4, place de la Madeleine,
Paris. c 1951. These 4 volumes, printed on 'bible paper' (the bound set,
containing maybe 2000 pages, takes up about 6 cm of shelf space). Add to that
an "Anthologie des chants populaires franco-canadiens," same publisher, c 1953,
156 pp.        I haven't looked yet, but expect that a 'net search of library catalogs
will turn up some copies of these which might be available through interlibrary
borrowing. They were all still available for sale from Durand in the late 1970s
when we were in Paris. Sigh.        There's a bunch of references to publications by the same author in
the flyleaves of these books, mainly to arrangements for piano and voice, etc.
and a few for 'danses populaires,' which are illustrated large paperbacks of
music + detailed descriptions of regional dances.        If there's some interest on this list I may be moved to troll my shelves
for other collections -- perhaps a dozen or so -- of 'primary' regional song
collections from France, and publish a list here.  But I'd urge you to look for
yourselves, at Melvyl (UC library catalog) f'rinstance, which reflects books
that at least ought to be on the shelves of the UCBerkeley music library.        I'm utterly amazed at what is available through assiduous winnowing of
the library catalogs, even though I don't really have the time to do thorough
searches. (I'm busy cataloging early California sheet music...!) -- Aloha,
or maybe Salut might be better, Lani<||>            Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
<||> 5621 Sierra Avenue, Richmond CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360

For those who are interested, bibliofind
http://www.bibliofind.com/cgi-bin/texis.exe/s/search has several of them
listed.>Alice Gomme's The Traditional Games of England, Scotland & Ireland (1894/98)
>Old English Singing Games
>Children's Singing Games with the Tunes to Which They are Sung--
Stefni Agin
Pittsburgh, PA
[unmask]

Steve:I concur.  Indeed, I would go further.  I would ask that all ballad-l
folks post to this list their research notes and articles (if
unpublished).   Frankly, I find the scholarship here much more interesting
than that published in the journals.  And cheaper.EdOn Wed, 23 Feb 2000, Cal Herrmann wrote:> Quoth Steve Roud (hi, Steve):
> > Donald, if you send me your Email address I can send you a bibliography of
> > children's folklore which, although not up to date, includes most of the
> > important earlier British & American references.
> > Steve Roud ([unmask])
>
>         Unless it's awfully long (hence likely to be rejected by
> some folkses' servers), you might post it to the list instead. Please?
> (Yes, I *am* insatiable!) -- aloha, Lani
>
> <||>            Lani Herrmann * [unmask]
> <||> 5621 Sierra Avenue, Richmond CA 94805 * (510) 237-7360
>