On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, DoN. Nichols wrote:> On Sat, Jan 26, 1991 at 10:54:53PM -0000, steve roud wrote:>         I would not consider this to have too much accuracy in
> dealing with animals, based on the comment about a rabbit "curling
> his tail".  Am I wrong in remembering them being equipped with
> nothing but a powder-puff, and nothing which could be curled?Indeed, as sung in "Bile That Cabbage Down", "Woody Knows Nothing",
and doubtless many other songs,  Raccoon got a bushy tail,
  Possum's tail is bare,
  Rabbit ain't got no tail at all,
  Just a little bitty bunch of hair.---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Whatever has "science" in its name isn't.  :||

>  From [unmask] Wed Jan 26 21:35:24 2000
>  Date:         Wed, 26 Jan 2000 21:14:39 -0500
>  From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
>  Subject:      Re: Ella Speed/Bulldogs
>  To: [unmask]>  On Sat, Jan 26, 1991 at 10:54:53PM -0000, steve roud wrote:>  > But there are other songs with barking builldogs:>  > Also PAINS IN MY FINGERS (Scarborough, On the Trail of Negro Folk Songs
>  > pp.167-8) which was 'sung by slaves on plantations before the war',  has the
>  > verse:
>  > A rabbit is a cunnin' thing
>  > He rambles after dark
>  > He never thinks to curl his tail
>  > Till he hears my bull-dog bark.>  > So this could be a dog or a gun.>          I would not consider this to have too much accuracy in dealing
>  with animals, based on the comment about a rabbit "curling his tail".
>  Am I wrong in remembering them being equipped with nothing but a
>  powder-puff, and nothing which could be curled?>  > I'm sure there are others. Perhaps nobody told the bulldog it couldn't bark
>  > properly. The moral seems to be that not all bulldogs are pistols, but some
>  > might be!I was ready to start preening myself at getting all those compliments
(preen preen preen!) on the
Stagger Lee Transportable Lyric Bulldog Association Realization
when it was John Garst who did all the *real* research on Ella Speed
(down to getting a photograph of the perpetrator), & then this came up
(unpreen, unpreen, aw) but *then* I thought:Doesn't "Oh Susannah" date from about the same time?"It rained so hard the day I left
 the weather it was dry
 The sun so hot I froze to death"(& its hard to write this out without throwing in
"Susannah don't you cry" even though there's no contradiction I can see
in *that* line).Not to mention "Nottamun Town", from even earlier.Could the concept of a curly-tailed rabbit & a barking bulldog
be a similar kind of construction?I'm racking my brains for pictures of any kind of rabbits with
something other than puffy tails, & all I can come up with is
that picture-postcard they sell in the southwest of something they
deign to call a "jackalope" (its not real.  Well, *I* never saw one).

Hi folks:A fascinating article on Cecil Sharp's collecting work in the Appalachians
can be found at:http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/sharp.htmUnfortunately, on my browser at least, some of the text is garbled or
disappears frustratingly, and there are many photographs which take a long
time to load. Still fascinating reading, though.Peace.
Paul

"Roy G. Berkeley" wrote:> My thanks to John Garst for the straight poop about the weapon used on Ella
> Speed.  I was just taking for granted Leadbelly's account of the affair.  And
> John's surmise that "forty-one" rhymes better than "thirty-eight" sounds right
> enough in this case (although "thirty-eight" rhymes very well with all kinds of
> things). And the version of "Stackerlee" I used to sing included the lines:
> "Stackerlee said to the devil, 'Devil, let's have some fun -- you stick me with
> your pitchfork and I'll shoot you with my forty-one".
>
> As regards the 19C "bulldog" models of pocket pistols, Sacco's pistol was indeed a
> "bulldog" model.  I recall that back in the early sixties a forensics expert got
> hold of the Sacco pistol and subjected a bullet fired from it to modern ballistics
> tests, unavailable in the era of the trial.  Comparing the newly-fired bullet with
> a bullet taken from the body of the murdered payroll guard verified that it was
> the murder weapon after all.  Doesn't mean that Sacco was the shooter, or that
> they got a fair trial, but, if they had got a fair trial and if modern forensics
> had been available back then, they could have been convicted after all.
> Another bulldog model that figures in a well-known song is the Iver-Johnson used
> by Czolgosz  to shoot McKinley (as in the Charlie Poole version, "White House
> Blues").
>
> ghost wrote:
>
> > >  From [unmask] Tue Jan 25 17:39:18 2000
> > >  Date:         Tue, 25 Jan 2000 17:28:10 -0500
> > >  From: "DoN. Nichols" <[unmask]>
> > >  Subject:      Re: Ella Speed
> > >  To: [unmask]
> >
> > >          It matches the basic pattern of a "bulldog" model.  It is short
> > >  barreled for ease of carry in a pocket, and it is heavy enough caliber
> > >  to have plenty of "bark".
> >
> > "I was standing
> >  on a corner
> >  when I heard a bulldog bark
> >  Someone had shot Billy Lion
> >  and went running
> >  in the dark"
> >
> > Or something like that.
> >
> > >From the version of "Stagger Lee" *I* know best, the hit-record version.
> >
> > Maybe I'm confabulating verses (glueing together pieces from different verses)
> > (I'm good at that) to make it more obvious, but I swear there's a line
> > about a "bulldog bark" in that song.  I'd have supposed, if I'd even ever
> > thought about it, all my life up to this very minute that this was just
> > local-scene-setting, especially since the hit-record *begins*
> > with some scene-setting that one rock critic refers
> > to as "the most famous rock-&-roll haiku"
> >
> > "The night was dark
> >  and the moon was yellow
> >  and the leaves came tumbling down",
> >
> > but now I'm beginning to think that the "bulldog bark" may be referring
> > to this kind of gun going off.  "Stagger Lee" is a pretty old song with
> > historical precedent as well as is "Ella Speed".

>  From [unmask] Thu Jan 27 10:13:23 2000
>  Date:         Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:13:21 -0500
>  From: ghost <[unmask]>
>  Subject:      Re: Ella Speed/Bulldogs
>  To: [unmask]>  >  On Sat, Jan 26, 1991 at 10:54:53PM -0000, steve roud wrote:>  >  > But there are other songs with barking builldogs:>  >  > Also PAINS IN MY FINGERS (Scarborough, On the Trail of Negro Folk Songs
>  >  > pp.167-8) which was 'sung by slaves on plantations before the war',  has the
>  >  > verse:
>  >  > A rabbit is a cunnin' thing
>  >  > He rambles after dark
>  >  > He never thinks to curl his tail
>  >  > Till he hears my bull-dog bark.
>
>  >  > So this could be a dog or a gun.>  Doesn't "Oh Susannah" date from about the same time?>  "It rained so hard the day I left
>   the weather it was dry
>   The sun so hot I froze to death">  Could the concept of a curly-tailed rabbit & a barking bulldog
>  be a similar kind of construction?I kind of feel I may be beating a dead horse (or rabbit, or even bulldog
<waa; I like doggies>) by now BUT:If that model of pistol was in production when this song was in
circulation, could possibly the song mean"that rabbit will curl even such a pitiful tail as its got when I shoot it"?On the other hand, maybe its just a song about a dog & a rabbit.On the 3rd hand, if you've got one, a lot of seemingly innocuous songs
"sung by slaves on plantations before the war" were *full* of double meaning,
code-language giving underground-railroad directions, etc.Hey!  Maybe the rabbit's **not a rabbit**.(I think I'll quit here.)

On Thu, Jan 27, 2000 at 01:39:21PM -0500, [unmask] wrote:        [ ... ]> Hi folks:
>
> A fascinating article on Cecil Sharp's collecting work in the Appalachians
> can be found at:
>
> http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/sharp.htm
>
> Unfortunately, on my browser at least, some of the text is garbled or
> disappears frustratingly, and there are many photographs which take a long
> time to load. Still fascinating reading, though.        I see that you are on AOL, and it may be a problem with AOL's
browser.  I have no trouble with Netscape 4.7 on a Sun workstation, at
least.        Thanks for the pointer,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

>From:    John Garst <[unmask]>
>
>I now have court records (but not Martin's trial transcript) and a
>newspaper article on the death of Ella Speed.  She was shot and killed atGreat work.  Ad interesting, too.  Thanks.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

ghost wrote:
...
>I was ready to start preening myself at getting all those compliments
>(preen preen preen!) on the
>Stagger Lee Transportable Lyric Bulldog Association Realization
>when it was John Garst who did all the *real* research on Ella Speed
>(down to getting a photograph of the perpetrator)...Well, I would like to have photographs of Bull Martin and Ella Speed, but I
haven't found any yet.   The physical description I have of Martin is from
a newspaper article published the day after the killing, written while he
was at large.  Accompanied by Anthony Martini (his father? - he lived with
his father), he turned himself in to the Acting Chief of Police on the
morning after the killing.john garst    [unmask]

As you're putting this into historical context, don't forget that eleven Italians were lynched in New Orleans in 1891 for the murder of the police chief (maybe that's why Bull Martin surrendered to the Acting Chief of Police).  This lynching is covered in most of the standard works on lynching, and I am pretty sure that there has been at least one monograph or dissertation devoted to it.BruceForum for ballad scholars <[unmask]> wrote:
> ghost wrote:
...
>I was ready to start preening myself at getting all those compliments
>(preen preen preen!) on the
>Stagger Lee Transportable Lyric Bulldog Association Realization
>when it was John Garst who did all the *real* research on Ella Speed
>(down to getting a photograph of the perpetrator)...Well, I would like to have photographs of Bull Martin and Ella Speed, but I
haven't found any yet.   The physical description I have of Martin is from
a newspaper article published the day after the killing, written while he
was at large.  Accompanied by Anthony Martini (his father? - he lived with
his father), he turned himself in to the Acting Chief of Police on the
morning after the killing.john garst    [unmask]

On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 17:27:34 -0500, you wrote:>On Fri, 31 Dec 1999 09:45:22 -0500, I wrote:
>
>>Moo.au
>
>Sorry about that.  I couldnt help it.  I thought it would be clickable but
>it don't seem to be.  It actually works if you can manually use UUDecode or
>TransferPro.  Shouldn't post bineries, I know.  Happy moo year anyway.It worked for me.  (Windows Media Player)
Happy Moo Year to you, too.Jeri

On Fri, 31 Dec 1999, Margaret MacArthur wrote:> I'm happy to have this date, Abby.  Do you know what Seba Smith's real name
> is?  I don't but maybe could read up on it. It is an interesting New Years
> story but I have never learned the song as I don't want to immortalize
> stupid womenBut remember Roman Hruska, who passed from the scene in 1999; his most
famous contribution to American politics was the remark that mediocre
judges deserved representation on the Supreme Court too. On the same
principle...Besides, think of all the dumb men immortalized in ballads -- the ones
who, while stealing away someone's daughter, blow a horn or otherwise
alert her five brothers. Fortunately, they don't usually get a chance to
contribute to the gene pool.Peace.
Paul

On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, Paul J. Stamler wrote:> On Fri, 31 Dec 1999, Margaret MacArthur wrote:> Besides, think of all the dumb men immortalized in ballads -- the
> ones who, while stealing away someone's daughter, blow a horn or
> otherwise alert her five brothers. Fortunately, they don't usually
> get a chance to contribute to the gene pool.I especially admire that Cruel Youth who turned his back on the
seventh pretty maiden.  If there have to be wicked men, there is some
satisfaction in making them foolish.---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Sometimes I think I am happier than I think I am.  :||

On 1/1/00, Joseph C Fineman wrote:[ ... ]> > Besides, think of all the dumb men immortalized in ballads -- the
> > ones who, while stealing away someone's daughter, blow a horn or
> > otherwise alert her five brothers. Fortunately, they don't usually
> > get a chance to contribute to the gene pool.
>
>I especially admire that Cruel Youth who turned his back on the
>seventh pretty maiden.  If there have to be wicked men, there is some
>satisfaction in making them foolish.If you think about it, that song is a *really* efficient way of
weeding stupidity out of the gene pool.First the guy polishes off six girls who are too dumb to avoid
being killed by this crumb, then the seventh, slightly smarter,
girl kills him off for *his* stupidity.Sounds to me like she was a police decoy. :-)But if you think about it, the vast majority of ballad characters
are evolutionary failures.....Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Sorry, your browser doesn't support iframes.

>On 1/1/00, Joseph C Fineman wrote:
>
>[ ... ]
Paul wrote
>> > Besides, think of all the dumb men immortalized in ballads -- the
>> > ones who, while stealing away someone's daughter, blow a horn or
>> > otherwise alert her five brothers. Fortunately, they don't usually
>> > get a chance to contribute to the gene pool.Joe wrote
>>I especially admire that Cruel Youth who turned his back on the
>>seventh pretty maiden.  If there have to be wicked men, there is some
>>satisfaction in making them foolish.Robert wrote
>If you think about it, that song is a *really* efficient way of
>weeding stupidity out of the gene pool.
>
>First the guy polishes off six girls who are too dumb to avoid
>being killed by this crumb, then the seventh, slightly smarter,
>girl kills him off for *his* stupidity.
>
>Sounds to me like she was a police decoy. :-)
>
>But if you think about it, the vast majority of ballad characters
>are evolutionary failures.....My Ballads Thrice Twisted CD is in hand, the notes finished and included,
and now, too late for annotation,  I consider their individual gene pools,
thoughts which never had occurred to me before.  I do sing of the seventh
slightly smarter girl, and of the young lord who alerts the  seven brothers
while riding off with his lady, and agree with Robert, evolutionary
failures, as are half of the protagonists featured on the CD.    Could
trace the descendents of  two of the kings, and make uneducated guesses
about the rest of the characters, many of whom seem most handy, smart, that
is.Margaret

On Sat, 1 Jan 2000, Robert B. Waltz wrote:> But if you think about it, the vast majority of ballad characters
> are evolutionary failures.....For breathtakingly casual imprudence, of the sort that we are assured
is typical of psychopaths, it would be hard to beat Jellon Graeme on
his last hunting trip."Hey, Dad, how come there's no shrubbery growing over there?"
"Must be because that's where I killed your mother."
(Son shoots father.)
"Oops.  That was a mistake.  Should have killed you too."---  Joe Fineman    [unmask]||:  Love like Matter is much  :||
||:  Odder than we thought.    :||

Margaret, Bob, Joe note that many of the heroes of ballads would not
classify as the brightest porch lights on the block.But contrast that with the heroes of folktales.  I mean, what ballad hero
was ever called "Clever Jack"?You think maybe we have a whole new school of analytic theory here?  Take
the hero's IQ, correlate that with the dumb things he or she does or
doesn't do.  In such ways are academic fortunes made.Ed

On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> But contrast that with the heroes of folktales.  I mean, what ballad hero
> was ever called "Clever Jack"?None, of course. But Willie's Lady qualifies as pretty damn sharp, if
you'll pardon the expression; she does some pretty clever thinking,
especially when you consider that she's also having contractions at the time.Peace.
Paul

On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:02:30 -0500, Automatic digest processor wrote:>I'm happy to have this date, Abby.  Do you know what Seba Smith's real name
>is?I've never researched this further the info I have is from _The New Green
Mountain Songster_, HH Flanders, etc., 1939 & 1966.  I have to admit, I saw
no reason to question the name 'Seba Smith' but I see what you mean.  Seba
has to be short for _something_.  Page 112 mentions that Smith is "best
known as the author of _Jack Downing Letters_.  That should help track him
down.Lomax in F.S. of North Amer._ notes that Smith was a "New England humorist"
and describes the song as a "mock-tragedy."  Later additions by Carter &
folk-processing expanded it.>story but I have never learned the song as I don't want to immortalize
>stupid women:-)  Well, you could think of them as Cautionary songs.Oh, I couldn't help it.  Open question, you know.  I had a look at Harvard
Library cat. & found Smith published many things as Seba Smith.  There are
several "Sebastian Smith"s but seem to be different guys. Ours has dates
1792-1868.  I tried to have a look in Vermont but it's closed.
--OK, ok.  So I look in Enc.Brit.  I'm embarassed to reveal I went & bought
the CD Rom of it a couple of years ago.  One of my dumbest things I've ever
done.  I could've bought 10 _real_ CDs & continued to use the valued 1911
edition - Best one they ever came out with.  But the CD Rom's occasionally
useful:Smith, Seba(b. Sept. 14, 1792, Buckfield, Maine, U.S.--d. July 28, 1868, Patchogue,
N.Y.), American editor and humorist, creator of the fictional Major Jack
Downing.A graduate of Bowdoin College, Smith founded (1829) the Portland Courier,
in which the Major's fictional letters first appeared in January 1830,
continuing later in the National Intelligencer until July 1853. Major Jack
was a common man magnified as oracle, a Yankee full of horse sense and wise
saws, and a threadbare office seeker exposing follies in a mobocracy.
Shameless pirating of Smith's invention led to Smith's collection of the
letters in book form, the last volume being published in 1859 under the
title My Thirty Years Out of the Senate. Even more than in the Downing
letters, Smith in Way Down East (1854) portrays the New England character.
Among Smith's followers in satire were James Russell Lowell in his "Hosea
Biglow," Artemus Ward, and Will Rogers.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

Your CD-ROM does appear to have more information on him than your
coveted 1911 EB, the latter with no independent entry, but two
passing references, one of which gets his dates wrong and implies
that he was editing the Eastern Argus at two years old.There's an interesting chronology of Seba Smith's wife, Elizabeth
Oakes Smith (1806-1893) at:
http://www.neiu.edu/~thscherm/eos/chrono.htmTidbits like:
"As husband loses his fortune speculating in the volatile market for
land preceding the Panic of 1837, attempting to recover his losses by
backing an invention designed to clean Sea Grass Cotton.""At Women's Rights Convention at Syracuse, September, 1852, her
nomination as President of the Convention is rejected when she
arrives in a dress exposing her neck and arms."But, back to the original point, I too find no indication that SS's
given name was anything other than Seba, though one might expect it
to be a diminutive.John Roberts.Abby Sale quoted and wroted::>On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 00:02:30 -0500, Automatic digest processor wrote:
>
> >I'm happy to have this date, Abby.  Do you know what Seba Smith's real name
> >is?
>
>I've never researched this further the info I have is from _The New Green
>Mountain Songster_, HH Flanders, etc., 1939 & 1966.  I have to admit, I saw
>no reason to question the name 'Seba Smith' but I see what you mean.  Seba
>has to be short for _something_.  Page 112 mentions that Smith is "best
>known as the author of _Jack Downing Letters_.  That should help track him
>down.
>
>Lomax in F.S. of North Amer._ notes that Smith was a "New England humorist"
>and describes the song as a "mock-tragedy."  Later additions by Carter &
>folk-processing expanded it.
>
> >story but I have never learned the song as I don't want to immortalize
> >stupid women
>
>:-)  Well, you could think of them as Cautionary songs.
>
>Oh, I couldn't help it.  Open question, you know.  I had a look at Harvard
>Library cat. & found Smith published many things as Seba Smith.  There are
>several "Sebastian Smith"s but seem to be different guys. Ours has dates
>1792-1868.  I tried to have a look in Vermont but it's closed.
>--
>
>OK, ok.  So I look in Enc.Brit.  I'm embarassed to reveal I went & bought
>the CD Rom of it a couple of years ago.  One of my dumbest things I've ever
>done.  I could've bought 10 _real_ CDs & continued to use the valued 1911
>edition - Best one they ever came out with.  But the CD Rom's occasionally
>useful:
>
>Smith, Seba
>
>(b. Sept. 14, 1792, Buckfield, Maine, U.S.--d. July 28, 1868, Patchogue,
>N.Y.), American editor and humorist, creator of the fictional Major Jack
>Downing.
>
>A graduate of Bowdoin College, Smith founded (1829) the Portland Courier,
>in which the Major's fictional letters first appeared in January 1830,
>continuing later in the National Intelligencer until July 1853. Major Jack
>was a common man magnified as oracle, a Yankee full of horse sense and wise
>saws, and a threadbare office seeker exposing follies in a mobocracy.
>Shameless pirating of Smith's invention led to Smith's collection of the
>letters in book form, the last volume being published in 1859 under the
>title My Thirty Years Out of the Senate. Even more than in the Downing
>letters, Smith in Way Down East (1854) portrays the New England character.
>Among Smith's followers in satire were James Russell Lowell in his "Hosea
>Biglow," Artemus Ward, and Will Rogers.
>
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
>I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)
>
>                            Skate free or die!

Hi-
There's a few, even in ballads. How about the wee lad  who defeated the
devil by playing Can you Top This? or the Jack who climbed mutated
beanstalks? oOr the hero of the Yorkshire Bite?> Or Sweet Joan, who rode
off down the long lane? or...On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> Margaret, Bob, Joe note that many of the heroes of ballads would not
> classify as the brightest porch lights on the block.
>
> But contrast that with the heroes of folktales.  I mean, what ballad hero
> was ever called "Clever Jack"?
>
> You think maybe we have a whole new school of analytic theory here?  Take
> the hero's IQ, correlate that with the dumb things he or she does or
> doesn't do.  In such ways are academic fortunes made.
>
> Ed
>

It rather depends on what is meant by  a "hero".  In a lot of American
ballads, the hero is larger than life because he's just dim enough to think
that he can "beat that steam drill down".Just yesterday, there was an interview on CBS this morning about the Cowboy
Downhill Ski race.  One of the participants explained that in skiing and in
rodeo, you have to be able to remove your brain and put it in your hip
pocket long enough to do what needs doing, then put it back in when the
danger is past.Also, aren't there examples of cleverness being associated with evil
intent?  I haven't had enough coffee, so I can't think of any musical
examples, but the derogatory description of someone being  "too clever by
half" sums it up.Adding one example of clever protagonists, there's the farmer in Devil and
the Farmer's Wife.  Of course, as a female, I guess I'm supposed to resent
the farmer for his male-chavenism and the whole song for it's vilification
of women in general, but he does get the better of the Devil.Regards, Miki Lynn

I'd like to add to your list the heroes in The Lockmaben Harper (The Blind
Harper), the Bonny Lass of Anglesey, The Maid on the Shore..the list goes on and
I'm sure there are many.  These are some of my favourites but I'm sure there are
more brilliant, witty characters in our ballads!Paddy TuttyPrairie Druid Music
http://www3.sk.sympatico.ca/wuidland/"Paul J. Stamler" wrote:> On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, Ed Cray wrote:
>
> > But contrast that with the heroes of folktales.  I mean, what ballad hero
> > was ever called "Clever Jack"?
>
> None, of course. But Willie's Lady qualifies as pretty damn sharp, if
> you'll pardon the expression; she does some pretty clever thinking,
> especially when you consider that she's also having contractions at the time.
>
> Peace.
> Paul

On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, Miki Thompson wrote:> Adding one example of clever protagonists, there's the farmer in Devil and
> the Farmer's Wife.  Of course, as a female, I guess I'm supposed to resent
> the farmer for his male-chavenism and the whole song for it's vilification
> of women in general, but he does get the better of the Devil.No, *she* gets the better of the devil, not by cleverness but by sheer
meanness.  The farmer winds up (in most versions) right back where he
started.Peace.
Paul

Well, in a like vein, we have the Devil & The Feathery Wife, where
she _does_ get him by cleverness. (Though I'm not sure where this
came from, other than the imagination of Bert Lloyd).John Roberts.At 9:35 AM -0800 1/3/00, Paul J. Stamler wrote:
>On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, Miki Thompson wrote:
>
> > Adding one example of clever protagonists, there's the farmer in Devil and
> > the Farmer's Wife.  Of course, as a female, I guess I'm supposed to resent
> > the farmer for his male-chavenism and the whole song for it's vilification
> > of women in general, but he does get the better of the Devil.
>
>No, *she* gets the better of the devil, not by cleverness but by sheer
>meanness.  The farmer winds up (in most versions) right back where he
>started.
>
>Peace.
>Paul

On 1/2/00, Ed Cray wrote:>Margaret, Bob, Joe note that many of the heroes of ballads would not
>classify as the brightest porch lights on the block.
>
>But contrast that with the heroes of folktales.  I mean, what ballad hero
>was ever called "Clever Jack"?
>
>You think maybe we have a whole new school of analytic theory here?  Take
>the hero's IQ, correlate that with the dumb things he or she does or
>doesn't do.  In such ways are academic fortunes made.Of course, there is another issue here: That of "practical intelligence"
(or whatever they're calling it this week). For a knight, for instance,
"practical intelligence" consisted of the ability to kill the other
guy before he killed you. Doesn't matter if the guy is otherwise too
dumb to know a bird from a rock; he does what he needs to do. :-)Which is just as well if you think about it; how do you give an
IQ test to a knight who can't read? :-)As for the suggestion of Willie's Lady's wife -- well, two comments.
First, while Martin Carthy makes her the one who comes up with the
idea, in the Ray Fisher version (the one Carthy deliberately fouled up),
it's a servant who does it.And second, if Willie's Lady is so smart, what's she doing marrying
a guy named Willie who has a mother like that? :-)Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

with regard to stupid or smart heroes, I can think of at least one
resourceful hero whose smarts would be equivalent to the folktale
heroes--John in "The Yorkshire Bite."  any comments.         Marge

Ever since reading & being most impressed with _When Prophesy Ends_ in the
60's, I've been looking forward to the millennium.  The book dealt with the
psychological & psycho-sociological effects on cults when their
"End-of-the- World prophesy failed to come about.  Just how do humans deal
with such a devastating blow the next day - sure, the night before, that
the world was over.  I was sure that apocalyptic millennialism would be
fascinating to see at year 2000.  I've been waiting the results & studies
all this while.I was so happy to start hearing of the Y2k hysteria and how far people were
prepared to go for what was, at the heart, Christian millennialism gone
public.Anyway, I'm asking any academic types and/or any "in the loop" (I'm in
Orlando) to please advise me when the serious academic papers & books,
dealing not with banks or people buying a few batteries but with those that
were sure disaster _could not_ be averted by any human means.I expect it will be some months before they begin to appear, if they're
serious studies, but will any that happen across such please advise me?Thank you very much.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

On 1/4/00, msteiner wrote:>with regard to stupid or smart heroes, I can think of at least one
>resourceful hero whose smarts would be equivalent to the folktale
>heroes--John in "The Yorkshire Bite."  any comments.Well -- certainly Jack/John/X kept his wits about them. (Of course,
so did Earl Brand, and look where it got *him*. :-)But look at the robber: *He* wasn't very good at his trade. Had he
had his wits about him, he would have sent Jack on his way and only
then picked up the money. :-)Of course, expecting two smart people in one song is a bit much.
When's the last time you encountered two smart people in real life? :-)Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Smart people are a rare commodity, both in ballads and in real life.          Marge

On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 00:01:43 -0500, John Roberts <[unmask]> wrote:>Your CD-ROM does appear to have more information on him than your
>coveted 1911 EB, the latter with no independent entry, but two
>passing references,True, true.  But a rare example.  Mostly for folk-related & especially for
those obscure people & events memorialized in Ballad, the 1911 is actually
far better.  Thing is, in 1911, it had still not been purged of its
Brittish bias.  The emphessis, of course became increasingly North
American.It's also surprising how many articles have identical wording between the
two.You'll notice the great color plates in it?  Good work for the era.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

I believe there is a Center for Millennial Studies or some such at Boston
College.  Now that the Millennium is past, you'd think they could get a
couple more years work doing these studies.BruceAt 07:48 AM 1/4/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Ever since reading & being most impressed with _When Prophesy Ends_ in the
>60's, I've been looking forward to the millennium.  The book dealt with the
>psychological & psycho-sociological effects on cults when their
>"End-of-the- World prophesy failed to come about.  Just how do humans deal
>with such a devastating blow the next day - sure, the night before, that
>the world was over.  I was sure that apocalyptic millennialism would be
>fascinating to see at year 2000.  I've been waiting the results & studies
>all this while.
>
>I was so happy to start hearing of the Y2k hysteria and how far people were
>prepared to go for what was, at the heart, Christian millennialism gone
>public.
>
>Anyway, I'm asking any academic types and/or any "in the loop" (I'm in
>Orlando) to please advise me when the serious academic papers & books,
>dealing not with banks or people buying a few batteries but with those that
>were sure disaster _could not_ be averted by any human means.
>
>I expect it will be some months before they begin to appear, if they're
>serious studies, but will any that happen across such please advise me?
>
>Thank you very much.
>
>
>-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
>I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)
>
>                            Skate free or die!
>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce E. Baker
Chapel Hill, NC
http://members.tripod.com/~Bruce_E_Baker
[unmask]

At 12:15 PM -0500 1/4/00, Bruce E. Baker wrote:
>I believe there is a Center for Millennial Studies or some such at Boston
>College.  Now that the Millennium is past, you'd think they could get a
>couple more years work doing these studies.
>
>BruceNot that I want to get into this at all, but there are some of us
pedants who might claim that the millennium is not yet over, that
2000 is the last year of the 20th century (and in fact defines it)
just as 1900 was the last year of the 19th. Sure the odometer has
ticked over to a nice round number, and that's worth celebrating in
itself, but a few of us consider the real millennial event to be a
year away.John Roberts.

In a message dated 1/4/00 1:27:51 PM EST, [unmask] writes:> Not that I want to get into this at all, but there are some of us
>  pedants who might claim that the millennium is not yet over, that
>  2000 is the last year of the 20th century (and in fact defines it)
>  just as 1900 was the last year of the 19th. Sure the odometer has
>  ticked over to a nice round number, and that's worth celebrating in
>  itself, but a few of us consider the real millennial event to be a
>  year away.So the nutcases will have one more chance to don their white robes, stockpile
matches and semi-automatic weapons, and/or monopolize talk radio? Oh, goody!Peace.
Paul

This serendipitiously arrived amidst the response to Abby's query.Ed---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 11:22:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Joshua S. Fouts <[unmask]>
Reply-To: [unmask]
To: [unmask]
Subject: New OJR: New Millennial Observations* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
(Un)Subscribe information at the end of this note.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Greetings OJR Readers.It was a busy Gregorian New Year for OJR's Y2K Media Watch staff,
who diligently provided daily news up to -- and minute-by-minute updates
on -- December 31, tracking the media's coverage of millennial groups
and the Y2K bug's potential impact, around the world.  And they're still
at it, tracking global media developments daily.  The new (and archived)
reports are all on the Web at www.Y2KMediaWatch.orgOJR millennial expert Dr. Stephen O'Leary provided us with
two of his "Eye on Y2K" columns, including a special New Year's Eve piece
that looked at the less obvious millennial activity on the Internet.Finally, in case you thought you had put 1999 completely behind you, Spike
has something to help jog your memories of the surreal and sublime in a
two-part look at A Year In The Life...of the Spike Report.
We've located it here for your convenience:
http://ojr.usc.edu/content/spike.cfm?request=243Lots of exciting stuff coming up in 2000, including a new OJR column from
former San Jose Mercury News editor, Jerry Lanson.  And lots more.Without further ado, here's the latest.In Brief...** Fresh Today **Spike Report: I Remember Boris, Denver's Mr. Chips, Flipping Out at
Wal-Mart
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/spike.cfm>Scheer Bytes: The Age of the Internet -- Hysteria, Hyperbole and Profit
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=309>** Recently **Y2K News Obscured by Fireworks
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=308>Millennial Law Enforcement: Y2K Terror as the FBI Confronts Armageddon
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=289>Spike's 1999 Year in Review
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/spike.cfm?request=243>Points to Click: Better Internet Search Engines; Intelligent Agents
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=275>***************
***************
The Details
***************
***************Scheer Bytes:
The Age of the Internet -- Hysteria, Hyperbole and ProfitThe Y2K crisis won't be the last occasion for overreaction and
profit-making related to the Net, says OJR Editor Robert Scheer.<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=309>***************
***************Spike Report:
I Remember Boris, Denver's Mr. Chips, Flipping Out at Wal-MartToday Spike looks at the numerous media departures of the past few days --
from Boris Yeltsin to the gang from Peanuts.Subscribe to Spike free by e-mail
Send an email to: [unmask]
In the body of the message type: subscribe SpikeReport-l Your Name<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/spike.cfm>***************
***************Eye on Y2K:
Y2K News Obscured by FireworksAs officials prepared to declare victory over Y2K Bug on
New Year's Eve, the Web hummed with reports and speculation.
Millennial expert Dr. Stephen O'Leary reports on the eve of the
year 2000.<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=308>** Earlier on Eye on Y2K **Millennial Law Enforcement: Y2K Terror as the FBI Confronts ArmageddonMillennial groups cast critical eye toward domestic terrorism-related
FBI Project Megiddo Report. Conspiracy theories abound, says Dr. O'Leary.<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=305>**************
**************Spike's 1999 Year In ReviewTrouble remembering 1999 already? Spike dusts off the best of '99
from the weird to the wonderful. Ready for you in two easy chunks
recalling the first and second halves of the year.Part 1
http://ojr.usc.edu/content/spike.cfm?request=238Part 2
http://ojr.usc.edu/content/spike.cfm?request=243***************
***************Points to Click:Better Internet Search Engines; Intelligent AgentsPaul Grabowicz offers advice of where to go when AltaVista
and Infoseek just won't do.<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/story.cfm?request=275>***************
***************Y2K Media WatchY2K Media Watch continues with its daily reports, tracking global
media coverage of millennial and Y2K-related issues.Daily Reports, and expanded media sectors here.
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/y2k.cfm>Subscribe to the free Y2K Media Watch newsletter.
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/y2k_briefs.cfm>Or send an email to: [unmask]
In the body of the message type: subscribe y2kmediawatch-l Your Name*************
*************OJR Jobs BoardLots of new listings!
Five different categories in the
online journalism world.<http://ojr.usc.edu/forums_jobs/Index.cfm?CFApp=7>***************
***************International Media NewsProvided daily by the European Journalism Centre
<http://ojr.usc.edu/content/ejc.cfm>There's a lot more...Check out the new OJR at http://www.ojr.org/The USC Annenberg Online Journalism Review (OJR.org)
is a publication of the
Annenberg School for Communication at the
University of Southern California.* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
SUBSCRIPTION QUESTIONS
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *If you received this message it is because you -- or
somebody -- entered your e-mail address into the subscription
form on the OJR site.
To Unsubscribe:
1. Send an email to [unmask]
2. Include in the first line of body of of the message:
UNSUBSCRIBE OJRNEWS-L
3. Please contact the message sender if there are any problems.
Nota Bene: Subscription changes and other requests should be
directed to the listproc server ([unmask]), instead of the
list address or the sender of this note..* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

There's another version of the program for tune code reading on
my website now. The new feature is to check for offsets. If one
codes a tune from the wrong keynote (as I have done for circular
tunes, some of which I did not immediately recognize as such) the
resulting code is offset, note by note, from the correct one. The
new option will check for all possible offsets from any reference
tune. This could be done for the whole file, but is time
consuming and there are a lot of duplicates (each correctly coded
version of a tune leads to the same offset versions). I hope to
solve the duplicates problem later, and apply the check to the
whole file, as it looks to me like a good thing to do as a check
on the coding.However, after adding the frills, my Quickbasic program can now
only handle about 390 tunes, less than 10% of those in my Irish
Tune Code Index. I've gotten Visualbasic, but it's so differrent
from the Basic I'm familiar with that after a week I still don't
know how to read a file with it. Any volunteers to translate my
program into Visualbasic? [I don't expect any.]There's a small file of Scots tunes also available on my website.
This has a few fake offset codes in it that were used for testing
the new option. [fakes are Lenox love to Blantyre/ How can I keep my
maidenhead.]Bruce Olson--
My website: www.erols.com/olsonw <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Of course, your average folk hero is a delicious combination of the
smart and the stupid (do I hear the title of a new soap opera
there?). The `hero' of King John and the Abbot of Canterbury is the
lowly shepherd, who is not only clever enough to answer Lackland's
riddles, but also to gain for himself an annuity (Then tuppence a
week I will give unto thee) rather than the considerably more
hazardous award of taking over the archbishopric. (You can be abbot
the other while/Oh no my lord, there is no need/For I can neither
write nor read). The English West-Country and the Transsylvanian joke
have the same backlash infrastructure, in which the supposedly daft
yokel has the last laugh over the `superior' opposition - sometimes
this is the urban audience:A Cornish fisherman is quietly mending his nets when he is approached
by a fashionable tourist. She is euphoric about his life-style, and
then asks him what the fishermen do in the winter.
"Ma'am, we laughs and we laughs and we laughs"
"How quaint. And what do you laugh about?"
"All you bloody tourists what comes down yer in the Zummer."Andy> with regard to stupid or smart heroes, I can think of at least one
> resourceful hero whose smarts would be equivalent to the folktale
> heroes--John in "The Yorkshire Bite."  any comments.
>
>          Marge
>

David Ewen, American Popular Songs (1966), gives what appears to be the
standard account of the genesis of May Irwin's Bully Song (Bully of the
Town).  Charles E. Trevathan (a sports writer) was playing it, or something
like it, on a train going from St. Louis to Chicago (year not specified -
I'd like to know it - the play The Widow Jones, featuring The Bully Song,
opened in September (I think), 1895).  May Irwin overheard and pressed him
for words.  He had learned the song, without a title, from Mammy Lou's
singing at Babe Connors' entertainment center in St. Louis, but he
considered that the words "weren't fit for the ears of a lady."  He wrote
out for Irwin an improvised and expurgated version.Michael Kilgariff, Sing Us One of the Old Songs (1998) has this entry for
The Bully Song:"Cooley, ? ... w&m Cooley from trad., arr. Charles E. Trevathan"Michael, are you on this list?  Where did you get this information?If Michael is not on this list, does anyone else have any idea where this
might have come from?SUOOTOS is an Oxford University Press book but it does not contained
specific annotations.  It has a list of sources at the end.john garst    [unmask]

I'm also very suspicious of Trevathan's story about Mammy Lou's singing the
song.  I've read something to the effect that Trevathan may have told a
variety of different stories.  In any event, it is hard for me to imagine
Mammy Lou, a highly regarded black entertainer, delivering stuff like
Trevathan's words for The Bully Song.Has anyone found another song that Trevathan could have heard that might
have been made over into The Bully Song?john garst    [unmask]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, John Garst wrote in part:> ...He had learned the song, without a title, from Mammy Lou's
> singing at Babe Connors' entertainment center in St. Louis, but he
> considered that the words "weren't fit for the ears of a lady."  He
wrote
> out for Irwin an improvised and expurgated version.
>
Babe Connors' whorehouse seems to have been a regular Tin Pan Alley.  It
was there too that "Ta-Ra-Ra-Boom-De-Ay" was supposedly first sung.What's with it with these St. Louis sports?"Frankie and Albert" too comes from those parts.Ed

Ed,Most of the attention has focussed on the far ends of that north-south
travel route, New Orleans and Chicago.  But there was plenty of action in
between (an early form of "flyover country," I guess).  If you want a
lively peek at the St. Louis scene, let me mention _A Blues Life_ by Henry
Townsend as told to Bill Greensmith.  Henry is the last of the old St.
Louis bluesmen.  His recordings were released in every decade since the
1920s and he's still going strong.  We published this book on October 27,
1999, his ninetieth birthday.  I think there's still an excerpt up on our
Web site, http://www.press.uillinois.edu.Happy 2000 to all!JudyJudith McCulloh
Assistant Director and Executive Editor
University of Illinois Press
1325 South Oak Street
Champaign, IL  61820-6975
(217) 244-4681
[unmask]On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, Ed Cray wrote:> On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, John Garst wrote in part:
>
> > ...He had learned the song, without a title, from Mammy Lou's
> > singing at Babe Connors' entertainment center in St. Louis, but he
> > considered that the words "weren't fit for the ears of a lady."  He
> wrote
> > out for Irwin an improvised and expurgated version.
> >
> Babe Connors' whorehouse seems to have been a regular Tin Pan Alley.  It
> was there too that "Ta-Ra-Ra-Boom-De-Ay" was supposedly first sung.
>
> What's with it with these St. Louis sports?
>
> "Frankie and Albert" too comes from those parts.
>
> Ed

In a message dated 1/5/00 12:27:39 PM EST, [unmask] writes:> Babe Connors' whorehouse seems to have been a regular Tin Pan Alley.  It
>  was there too that "Ta-Ra-Ra-Boom-De-Ay" was supposedly first sung.
>
>  What's with it with these St. Louis sports?
>
>  "Frankie and Albert" too comes from those parts.All it takes is a couple of good songwriters and some paying customers to
make a scene. "Stagolee" is also from there and then.Peace.
Paul

>In a message dated 1/5/00 12:27:39 PM EST, [unmask] writes:
>
>> Babe Connors' whorehouse seems to have been a regular Tin Pan Alley.  It
>>  was there too that "Ta-Ra-Ra-Boom-De-Ay" was supposedly first sung.
>>
>>  What's with it with these St. Louis sports?
>>
>>  "Frankie and Albert" too comes from those parts.
>
>All it takes is a couple of good songwriters and some paying customers to
>make a scene. "Stagolee" is also from there and then.As well as Duncan and Brady, but can anyone help me with my questions:(1)  Who is the "Cooley" cited by Michael Kilgariff as the author (w&m) of
The Bully Song and where did he get this information?(2) Has anyone found another song that Chrles E. Trevathan could have heard
that might be the one he made over into The Bully Song?john garst    [unmask]

Abby and John, thanks for the info on Seba Smith.  I can't remember where I
read that the name was a pseudonymn, so am glad to be enlightened.  He also
wrote Stratton Mountain Tragedy, in this case a well documented tale of
December 20,  1821Quotes from History of Marlborough, Vermont"when in a snow storm on the Green Mountains on Vermont, Mr. Blake was
severely frozen, his wife perished , and their infant daughter Rebecca was
saved.The following stanzas were written by Seba Smith, Esq., for the Medina Ohio
Whig, on the death of Mrs. Blake.  Mrs. Blake was the mother of Harrison G
Otis Blake of Medina Ohio"The funeral was in Marlboro, but she was buried a few rods over the line in
NewfaneMy comments-I don't know how to make quotation marks in email-:Lucy Blake  wrapped the infant in her garments, so saving Rebecca's life Harrison-Gray Blake and Lucy had an older son,  Harrison-Gray-Otis Blake,
a member of the Ohio Legislature, 1846-, and a member of Congress
1858-1862.The analogy to old ballad protagonists is in the error of going over
Stratton Mountain in the winter rather than taking the  more travelled
Bennington - Marlboro route.  But their gene pool was carried on.Merge, Yorkshire Bite is New Hampshire Bite on Ballads Thrice Twisted,
which also includes a Maine version of Earl Brand and his beloved, Lady
Margaret.  I learned the latter to sing at a Four Margarets workshop at
Mariposa in the early 70s, Margaret Crystal, Margaret Bennet, Maggie Peirce
and me.Margaret MacArthur

I discussed the history of The Bully in the brochure notes to JEMF LP 103:
Paramount Old Time Tunes, which reissued a version by Harkreader and Moore;
and then again in the brochure to JEMF LP 109: Minstrels and Tunesmiths,
which reissued the historically more important recording by May Irwin
(1907).  Basically, there are two received accounts of the genesis of this
song.  One was first published by James J. Geller in his "Famous SOngs and
their Stories (1931).  This is the anecdote about sports writer and horse
racing judge, Charles E. Trevathan, on the train back to Chicago from San
Francisco in 1894, playing his guitar and himming popular airs to amuse the
passengers around him among whom was May Irwin.  He said he had learned the
tune of "The Bully" from Tennessee blacks.  Irwin suggested that he put
words to the tune, which he did, and published it in 1896.  She incorporated
the song in her stage play, "The Widow Jones."  The other account, first
published, as far as I know, by E. B. Marks in "They All Sang" (1934) is
that the song was popularized before he got his hands on it by "Mama Lou, a
short, fat, homely, belligerent powerhouse of a singer in Babe Connor's
classy St. Louis brothel, a popular  establishment in the 1890s that drew
from all social classes for its clientele.  Either Trevathan picked up the
song from Mama Lou, or, equally likely, both learned it from black oral
tradition in the South of the early 1890s.  In support of this position is
the fact that there were several sheet music versions of 'The Bully"
published, some preceding Trevathan's 1896 version"  (quoted from my notes
to JEMF LP 109).  That brochure includes the texts of both Trevathan's sheet
music version and also Will Carlton's "De New Bully" of the same year.  Four
other Bully songs were published in 1895.
The role of Mama Lou in the propagation of this and other songs, as noted in
other postings on this topic, has grown to mythic proportions, and if true
is indeed remarkable.
Norm Cohen
-----Original Message-----
From: John Garst <[unmask]>
To: [unmask] <[unmask]>
Date: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 6:25 AM
Subject: Bully>David Ewen, American Popular Songs (1966), gives what appears to be the
>standard account of the genesis of May Irwin's Bully Song (Bully of the
>Town).  Charles E. Trevathan (a sports writer) was playing it, or something
>like it, on a train going from St. Louis to Chicago (year not specified -
>I'd like to know it - the play The Widow Jones, featuring The Bully Song,
>opened in September (I think), 1895).  May Irwin overheard and pressed him
>for words.  He had learned the song, without a title, from Mammy Lou's
>singing at Babe Connors' entertainment center in St. Louis, but he
>considered that the words "weren't fit for the ears of a lady."  He wrote
>out for Irwin an improvised and expurgated version.
>
>Michael Kilgariff, Sing Us One of the Old Songs (1998) has this entry for
>The Bully Song:
>
>"Cooley, ? ... w&m Cooley from trad., arr. Charles E. Trevathan"
>
>Michael, are you on this list?  Where did you get this information?
>
>If Michael is not on this list, does anyone else have any idea where this
>might have come from?
>
>SUOOTOS is an Oxford University Press book but it does not contained
>specific annotations.  It has a list of sources at the end.
>
>john garst    [unmask]
>

It is my uncertain memory that some one inquired within this forum, about a
source of information about animals in folkore. I knew there was such a book
but had forgotten where it was! (Oddly - on the folklore shelf, where I have
just found it.)JR Porter and WMS Russell (eds) Animals in Folklore (The Folklore Society
Mistletoe Series) Published by DS Brewer (Cambridge, England) and Rowman and
Littlefield (Totowa, NJ) for the Folklore Society, 1978John Moulden

Re: tune coding again.I got a bit of a jolt last night (actually the not too wee hours
of this morning) when I finally got to the point of some
understanding of tunes I coded from 'Sources of Irish Traditional
Music', 1998.Information that "An the kird wad let me be/ Blythsome Bridal/
Silly Old Man" was known no later than 1676 is in the broadside
ballad index on my website at ZN1987, where the song there
contains much of "The Blythsome Bridal", and the first and last
titles are from the same fragmentary old song given by David
Herd. [For more information see C. M. Simpson's 'The British
Broadside Ballad and Its Music', "The Scotch Wedding", #413.
Simpson didn't connect the "Silly Old Man" title of the tune
with the broadside mentioned above, and gives the poor tune
in 'Pills to Purge Melancholy'.]The tune as "An the kirk woud lat me be" is in Stuart's "Music for
[TTM] and in "Orpheus Caledonius" as "Blythsome Bridal". In both
the indicated timing in an incorrect 6/4 rather than 9/4. It
seems that Charles Gore took the 6/4 literally for 'The Scottish
Fiddle Music Index', and coded all versions as for his 6/4
timing, and to my way of thinking none are correct.Many versions of the tune, including the two above, are given in
the recent 'Sources of Irish Traditional Music', 1998 (SITM).
SITM specifies mode or choices of mode for each tune. For these
one can readily figure out the keynote from the key signature.
When coding these for the Irish Tune Index on my website I had
noted a variety of key-mode combinations, and that in SITM there
were two prototypes, #456 for Stuart's tune above and #738 for
the again incorrectly timed 6/8 version of "Silly Old Man" in
Walsh's 'Caledonian Country Dances.'(correct 9/8 in the Vicker's
MS/ Great Northern Tune Book, #394). Later versions of the tunes
in SITM are cross-referenced to one or the other of these two.For #456 and tunes crossed referenced to it (codes here are for
9/4 or 9/8 no matter what the original timing indicated)#456 [As above, 6/4]                      ; F major, 135 226
#691 [Orpheus C above, 6/4]               ; G dorian, 7L7L4 115
#1171 Oswald's CPC (3/4)                  ; G major, 136 227
#1765 Gillespie MS (9/8)                  ; G circular major, 135 226
                                        or; D mixolydian, 461H 552H
#2255, Scots Mus. Museum                  ; G dorian, 7L7L4 115
#3678, Keith's Complete Repository        ; D minor 357 441H
                                        or; F major circular 135 226
There are more but you have the picture, some variation on 4
different note codes starting on 7L or 1 or 3 or 4For the other prototype, #738:
#738 Cal. Country Dances, 6/8            ; G dorian, 7L7L4 115
#2490, Aird's Airs, I                    ; G major circular 115 226
                                       or; A dorian, 7L7L4 115
#3056 Pedlar's song in Oscar and Malvina ; D minor, 337 441H
#3302, Pedlar, Thompson's 24 CDs for 1796; F major 115 226
#6071, I'm the boy for bewitching 'em    ; E minor 337 441H
                                       or; G major circular 115 226
There are more but that's enough to get the picture.That's following the rules instead of using one's head. The
tyranny of the final note misleads us as to the proper code.
Take the key signature and the keynote as the final note of the
first strain and we have:#456 ; D minor  357 441H
#691 ; D minor  337 441H
#1171; E minor  351H 441H
#1765; E minor  357 441H
#2255; D minor  337 441H
#3678; D minor  357 441H
#738 ; D minor  337 441H
#2490; E minor  337 441H
#3056; D minor  337 441H
#3302;(D minor) 337 441H
#6071; E minor  337 441H
All are 3mn 441H, and 7 of 11 are 337 441HAre there really two prototypes? Maybe as far as the whole tune
goes, but the coded part doesn't seem to care much about what
follows it. If anything it would seem that we need 3 prototypes
for the whole tune depending on whether the 1st note is 7L
(dorian ones), 1 (major/ ionian) or 3 (minor/aeolian). [Let's
just forget that mixolydian one that starts with a 4]It's obvious I should change most of the key-mode and note codes
in my Irish tunes index for the various versions of this tune, but
how do I explain the change? Temporarily I've put the actual code
used in parenthesis in the key-mode field (in the coded Scots tunes
index) on my website, where there are now 15 versions of "An the kirk
wad let me be". Incidently there's only one file with both sets of
fields now for the Irish and Scots coded tunes.Just what does the key-mode tell us as far as tune coding goes?
It looks like we need the overall key-mode to tell us something
about the structure of the whole tune, but that's not always the
best thing to use to code in the first strain for the purposes of
identifying variant tunes.Any thoughts out there?Bruce Olson--
My website: www.erols.com/olsonw <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

        Hi BAllad listers,
     This is just a test to see if my subscription got straightened out or
not.  So just ignore this.Pat Holub

Hi, Pat.  I've been away.  Anyway,k I got your test message.        Marge

Balladeers --Been awfully quiet around here lately. So I thought I'd bore you
further by bringing up something completely unrelated to ballads. :-)When I released the latest Ballad Index version a few months ago,
it came with software for Mac and UNIX, but nothing for the PC.
I was hoping someone would volunteer to help out on that part.No dice.So I'm trying once again to produce the software myself.Unfortunately, life has proven a bit more complicated than I thought.
I was hoping to produce a nice, simple, DOS-based program. Turns
out that the compiler I expected to use won't do what I expected
it to do. I cannot, using either of the compilers available to
me, produce "strict" DOS programs, runable on any PC clone with a
hard disk. One program requires Windows (even though the software
itself will be DOS-like), the other does not require Windows, but
does require a 386 and the ability to run in protected mode (and,
presumably, DOS 5.0 or higher).So the question becomes, how important is this? I guess I need
to know how many of you use Windows, how many use DOS on a 386 or
higher, and how many (if any) still use 8086, 8088, or 80286
PCs.I might add that if I have to target machines below the 80386,
you will have a much longer wait on your hands, because I have
to find a used compiler somewhere. :-) So if only one or two
of you still use 80286s, you may be out of luck. If it's five
or six, well, I'll do what I can.If you don't want to admit on-list to running off a PC-AT
or some such, feel free to contact me off-list. Remember, if
you have a low-end machine and *don't* contact me, you may
get left behind. :-)Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

I've now remedied what I considered a major longstanding defect in the
broadside ballad index on my website. Now added are references
to many ballads in the Pepys collection to the volume and number
where the texts are reprinted in Hyder Edward Rollins' 'The Pepys
Ballads', 8 vols. 1929-32. The 8th volume consists of additional
notes, an index of titles, first lines, burdens and tune citations.
There is a further massive index of names, subjects, and words. In
all, 505 of the Pepys ballads were reprinted in this series.The series is dedicated to Rollins' mentor George Lyman Kittredge,
a name well known to American folklorists as the one that saw the
final volume of 'The English and Scottish Popular Ballads' to the
press, after Francis James Child died. Kittredge was, I believe,
a founding member of The American Folklore Society (and
contributor to their journal, as was Rollins on two occassions).
Rollins' notes are always informative and concise, and if you're
interested in a ballad in the Pepys collection, be sure to see
Rollins' comments if it's one that he reprinted.Bruce Olson
--
My website: www.erols.com/olsonw <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

At 06:39 AM 1/10/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi, Pat.  I've been away.  Anyway,k I got your test message.
>
>        Marge     Yes, I know, Marge, because the list sends me my own messages.  Glad
it's straightened out.Best regards,
Pat >

In a message dated 10/01/2000  20:10:05, you write:<< So the question becomes, how important is this? I guess I need
 to know how many of you use Windows, how many use DOS on a 386 or
 higher, and how many (if any) still use 8086, 8088, or 80286
 PCs >>I'd be in the higher bracket; unusually for a 486 running 6.22. And thank you
for the question.John Moulden

Thanks for the quotes re "The Stratton Mountain Tragedy."  And, yes, I
remember the Four Margarets workshop well: I was there.          Marge

On 1/10/00, [unmask] wrote:>In a message dated 10/01/2000  20:10:05, you write:
>
><< So the question becomes, how important is this? I guess I need
> to know how many of you use Windows, how many use DOS on a 386 or
> higher, and how many (if any) still use 8086, 8088, or 80286
> PCs >>
>
>I'd be in the higher bracket; unusually for a 486 running 6.22. And thank you
>for the question.Actually, if I understand you right, that's the middle bracket: 386 or
higher, but running DOS, not Windows.Which will probably prove the easiest target for me.Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

pentium 3 here win 98.....
for the british you really have to keep it text to make
them
happy and they would prefer parchment!Cb[unmask] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 10/01/2000  20:10:05, you write:
>
> << So the question becomes, how important is this? I guess I need
>  to know how many of you use Windows, how many use DOS on a 386 or
>  higher, and how many (if any) still use 8086, 8088, or 80286
>  PCs >>
>
> I'd be in the higher bracket; unusually for a 486 running 6.22. And thank you
> for the question.
>
> John Moulden--
The Author of this e.mail has declared himself to be a
third
world country and now awaits cancelation of his debt.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Robert B. Waltz wrote:
>
> On 1/10/00, [unmask] wrote:
>
> >In a message dated 10/01/2000  20:10:05, you write:
> >
> ><< So the question becomes, how important is this? I guess I need
> > to know how many of you use Windows, how many use DOS on a 386 or
> > higher, and how many (if any) still use 8086, 8088, or 80286
> > PCs >>
> >
> >I'd be in the higher bracket; unusually for a 486 running 6.22. And thank you
> >for the question.
>
> Actually, if I understand you right, that's the middle bracket: 386 or
> higher, but running DOS, not Windows.
>
> Which will probably prove the easiest target for me.
>
> Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
> 2095 Delaware Avenue
> Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
> 651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
> The Ballad Index Web Site:
> http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.htmlMy preference is certainly DOS over Windows, but I've heard rumors that
Microsoft is thinking about abandoning DOS altogether.Bruce OlsonMy website: www.erols.com/olsonw <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Bob,I haven't had a chance to see exactly what the Mac/UNIX software does
with the index as I don't have ready access to either platform.  I was
wondering, though, how much work would it be to create a DBase version
that could be imported into most database programs?  Would that get
around some of the problems associated with platform?Cheers
Jamie

John Cowley has drawn my attention to DELIA (COONEY SHOT/KILLED DELIA,
DELIA'S GONE, etc.)  This is widespread in the south and the Carribean.
The point at issue is Robert W. Gordon's research, described in a 1928
letter quoted by Kodish (Good Friends and Bad Enemies).  Gordon said, "I
have combed the Savannah underworld of the Umacraw section and have
obtained the first hand facts of the murder...Got the dope at last,
interviewed and photographed Delia's mother, had copied fifty pages of
court records,...."JC tells me that Gordon's records concerning DELIA are nowhere to be found,
so whatever information he had appears to be lost.Does anyone have any ideas that could lead to finding these lost items?john garst    [unmask]

On 1/11/00, James Moreira wrote:>Bob,
>
>I haven't had a chance to see exactly what the Mac/UNIX software does
>with the index as I don't have ready access to either platform.  I was
>wondering, though, how much work would it be to create a DBase version
>that could be imported into most database programs?  Would that get
>around some of the problems associated with platform?No. dBase doesn't exist on any platforms other than the PC. So I can't
create the file. :-)Or, more correctly, I could use a translator to try to convert a SYLK
file (which I could create) into dBase format. But I have no way to
test it. Also, this produces a real support problem. *I* can't help
a person who uses, say, Alpha 4 to import a dBase file when I don't
have either program. :-)Also, how does dBase handle fields with carriage returns in them?
And is there a limit on field length? These could be real problems.And finally, how many people have a database which they know how
to use? While a lot of people have Access, do they know how to use
it? And what about people who don't buy Microsoft, or at least
don't buy MS except for Windoze? (One nice thing about the Mac:
I haven't given a *cent* to Microsoft in years. Nor have I any
interest in starting.)We don't really have a problem with platform; we have a problem
with software targets. If we decide that we can live with writing
code only for the 80386 and up (and so far, I've heard no objections),
then I just have to get the code -- which already exists, be it
noted -- to compile under gcc for the PC.It will then be up to you folks to test the software, for the most
part -- but it's almost entirely harmless software (it writes only
its preferences files and some temporary files), so it shouldn't
pose a great danger.Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

On Tue, Jan 11, 2000 at 08:54:30AM -0500, James Moreira wrote:> Bob,
>
> I haven't had a chance to see exactly what the Mac/UNIX software does
> with the index as I don't have ready access to either platform.  I was
> wondering, though, how much work would it be to create a DBase version
> that could be imported into most database programs?  Would that get
> around some of the problems associated with platform?        Various database programs tend to be difficult to share data
files between.  And database programs are *very* expensive for unix
systems, where the vendor assumes that there are fifty or more users
with access to it, and charges accordingly. :-(        Bob starts out with the information in a Mac database, and
exports it in a format appropriate for a cross-platform program to deal
with.        What he has written is a platform-independent database program
tailored to the specific needs of the ballad index.  (Well ... the
search and extraction parts.  The assumption is that the input is still
handled by the single program on his system.        Enjoy,
                DoN.P.S.    If you can find an *inexpensive* database program available on
        *all* the platforms, where were you when the planning was going
        on? :-)--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Dear all
I'm not a computer expert, and I'm sorry if I've missed the point of the PC
SOFTWARE discussion, but I'm genuinely amazed that there are people out
there still compiling their own programs to handle structured data when
there are dozens of off-the-shelf databases which will do the job as well,
and in some cases infinitely better. We've come a long way since Dbase was
the only package available. Each package has its strengths and weaknesses
and one should choose the right one for your needs, but all the good ones
allow import and export of data in a common format. Subscribers to my Folk
Song Index, for example, use various packages, but I supply the data in one
standard format (called 'comma-delimited') to them all. I personally use
Masterfile, Microsoft Access, Cardbox, and Filemaker, and swap data to and
fro - other packages which spring to mind are DataEase, Paradox, Dbase,
Idealist... If you buy a new PC you may well get one bundled in for free.
Whether we like it or not, Microsoft Access is probably becoming the basic
standard - certainly it is in the UK. It is not, in my opinion, an easy
package for the beginner, but it is extremely powerful for the 'advanced'
user.
On the question of DOS - if you have current DOS users you must cater for
them still, but for heaven's sake don't base everything on DOS. There is no
point in deliberately consigning yourself to an already seriously out-dated
system. It will make any future changeover even more painful. Again, whether
we like it or not WINDOWS is the standard, and if you want to cater for a
wide range of users (and not just 'experts') we should be looking for
standards - common denominators.
In answer to a couple of your questions. In most packages, the usual maximum
length for database fields is 254 characters, but most of the modern
packages allow 'long' fields of any length (within reason). Some packages
only allow a certain number of long fields per record.
Packages will usually allow a return character within a long field. Return
characters can, however, confuse the data transfer if not handled correctly.
Hope this helps
Steve Roud-----Original Message-----
From: Robert B. Waltz <[unmask]>
To: [unmask] <[unmask]>
Date: 10 January 2000 20:07
Subject: PC Software for Ballad Index>Balladeers --
>
>Been awfully quiet around here lately. So I thought I'd bore you
>further by bringing up something completely unrelated to ballads. :-)
>
>When I released the latest Ballad Index version a few months ago,
>it came with software for Mac and UNIX, but nothing for the PC.
>I was hoping someone would volunteer to help out on that part.
>
>No dice.
>
>So I'm trying once again to produce the software myself.
>
>Unfortunately, life has proven a bit more complicated than I thought.
>I was hoping to produce a nice, simple, DOS-based program. Turns
>out that the compiler I expected to use won't do what I expected
>it to do. I cannot, using either of the compilers available to
>me, produce "strict" DOS programs, runable on any PC clone with a
>hard disk. One program requires Windows (even though the software
>itself will be DOS-like), the other does not require Windows, but
>does require a 386 and the ability to run in protected mode (and,
>presumably, DOS 5.0 or higher).
>
>So the question becomes, how important is this? I guess I need
>to know how many of you use Windows, how many use DOS on a 386 or
>higher, and how many (if any) still use 8086, 8088, or 80286
>PCs.
>
>I might add that if I have to target machines below the 80386,
>you will have a much longer wait on your hands, because I have
>to find a used compiler somewhere. :-) So if only one or two
>of you still use 80286s, you may be out of luck. If it's five
>or six, well, I'll do what I can.
>
>If you don't want to admit on-list to running off a PC-AT
>or some such, feel free to contact me off-list. Remember, if
>you have a low-end machine and *don't* contact me, you may
>get left behind. :-)
>
>Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
>2095 Delaware Avenue
>Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
>651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]
>
>The Ballad Index Web Site:
>http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

OK, good to know that everything is ay-okay.        Marge

I use Windows.  Gretchen Lutz

On Fri, Jan 11, 1991 at 09:49:03PM -0000, steve roud wrote:> Dear all
> I'm not a computer expert, and I'm sorry if I've missed the point of the PC
> SOFTWARE discussion, but I'm genuinely amazed that there are people out
> there still compiling their own programs to handle structured data when
> there are dozens of off-the-shelf databases which will do the job as well,
> and in some cases infinitely better. We've come a long way since Dbase was
> the only package available. Each package has its strengths and weaknesses
> and one should choose the right one for your needs, but all the good ones
> allow import and export of data in a common format. Subscribers to my Folk
> Song Index, for example, use various packages, but I supply the data in one
> standard format (called 'comma-delimited') to them all. I personally use
> Masterfile, Microsoft Access, Cardbox, and Filemaker, and swap data to and
> fro - other packages which spring to mind are DataEase, Paradox, Dbase,
> Idealist... If you buy a new PC you may well get one bundled in for free.
> Whether we like it or not, Microsoft Access is probably becoming the basic
> standard - certainly it is in the UK. It is not, in my opinion, an easy
> package for the beginner, but it is extremely powerful for the 'advanced'
> user.        The problem is that the PC (that is the IBM PC and its clones)
is not the only system involved here.  We have people using the
Macintosh (including the only person who *cared* enough about the ballad
index to do the work), and others using various flavors of unix systems.
(I count myself among those.)  Other unix users are at educational
institutions with unix servers to provide the tools needed for shared
functions -- such as the ballad index.> On the question of DOS - if you have current DOS users you must cater for
> them still, but for heaven's sake don't base everything on DOS. There is no
> point in deliberately consigning yourself to an already seriously out-dated
> system. It will make any future changeover even more painful. Again, whether
> we like it or not WINDOWS is the standard,        No -- windows is *a* standard -- not *the* standard.  It does
not run on all computers -- nor even on all computers being used by
people on this mailing list.>                                            and if you want to cater for a
> wide range of users (and not just 'experts') we should be looking for
> standards - common denominators.        The original reason for writing our own code is so we could
offer a common system across all the platforms required to keep everyone
happy.        DOS programs can be run in DOS windows on computers running any
one of the Microsoft Windows variants.  They can also be run on systems
which do not *have* windows software loaded, for whatever reason.
Programs explicitly targeted for the Windows flavors cannot be run on
systems which have just a variant of MS-DOS loaded.  Thus the choice of
MS-DOS as the target environment, to maximize the number of those who
can use the software.> In answer to a couple of your questions. In most packages, the usual maximum
> length for database fields is 254 characters, but most of the modern
> packages allow 'long' fields of any length (within reason). Some packages
> only allow a certain number of long fields per record.
> Packages will usually allow a return character within a long field. Return
> characters can, however, confuse the data transfer if not handled correctly.        But database programs for some systems, including most unix
systems, tends to be priced as though everyone on the system was going
to be using it -- so you pay something like fifty times what you would
for a MS-DOS or Windows copy, which can be restricted to a single
system.        Thanks,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:04:34 -0500, Robert wrote:> how many of you use WindowsWin95.  I'd be just as happy with a plain text version.  I read it into
Word & Save As a Word doc.  Easy to search & use data elsewhere.-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ---
I am Abby Sale - [unmask]  (That's in Orlando)                            Skate free or die!

A few comments here....On Fri, Jan 11, 1991 at 09:49:03PM -0000, steve roud wrote:> > Dear all
> > I'm not a computer expert, and I'm sorry if I've missed the point of the PC
> > SOFTWARE discussion, but I'm genuinely amazed that there are people out
> > there still compiling their own programs to handle structured data when
> > there are dozens of off-the-shelf databases which will do the job as well,
> > and in some cases infinitely better. We've come a long way since Dbase was
> > the only package available. Each package has its strengths and weaknesses
> > and one should choose the right one for your needs, but all the good ones
> > allow import and export of data in a common format. Subscribers to my Folk
> > Song Index, for example, use various packages, but I supply the data in one
> > standard format (called 'comma-delimited') to them all. I personally use
> > Masterfile, Microsoft Access, Cardbox, and Filemaker, and swap data to and
> > fro - other packages which spring to mind are DataEase, Paradox, Dbase,
> > Idealist... If you buy a new PC you may well get one bundled in for free.
> > Whether we like it or not, Microsoft Access is probably becoming the basic
> > standard - certainly it is in the UK. It is not, in my opinion, an easy
> > package for the beginner, but it is extremely powerful for the 'advanced'
> > user.I'm not going to say much to this, because DoN has covered the basic
ground. But I will point that no database does exactly what we want, and
there is no database which exists across platforms. The Ballad Index
software can search *this particular* database in ways that no other
software can. (The proof of this is that, even though I compile the
Index in a particular database, I often use the custom software to
search it.)Nor can the data be supplied in comma-delimited form, because it contains
commas, nor in tab-delimited form (which, BTW, is a much more transportable
form), because it contains line breaks.The reason for preferring DOS to Windows (which seems to be the clear
trend) is that it means we need develop only *one* version of the
software. Any person with Windows can use DOS code; the reverse is not
true. And every minute I spend writing code, be it noted, is time that
I cannot spend putting data into the Ballad Index.That being said, I am perfectly willing to work with those who wish to
do things some other way. If someone wants to work on a Windows version,
wonderful -- note that the *source code* is available on our web site,
open for non-commercial use under the GNU license. I'm not sure how
"doable" a real Windows version is (I gave up on a true Mac version
because it would have required a separate code base, and that means
that different versions would acquire different feature sets -- a
Bad Thing in my opinion). But if someone wants to volunteer, or
wants to create a version for Access, or any such thing, I will supply
what support I can.On 1/12/00, Abby Sale wrote:>On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 00:04:34 -0500, Robert wrote:
>
> > how many of you use Windows
>
>Win95.  I'd be just as happy with a plain text version.  I read it into
>Word & Save As a Word doc.  Easy to search & use data elsewhere.And that's fine. We're not going to stop supplying text versions;
in fact, the database itself is a text file. (It is in fact
*the same* text file. How's that for simple? :-) Depending on
your machine and your word processor, that may well prove faster
than our software for some purposes.But suppose you want to search for a song with the keywords "love"
and "death," which mentions the word "rose" somewhere in the description,
but is *not* Barbara Allen. You can do it with our software:SEARCH    KEYWORDS   contains "love"
AND KEYWORDS   contains "death"
AND ALL TEXT   contains "rose"
NOT SONG TITLE contains "Barbar"You see, there really is a point to all this. :-) If you don't
need it, fine -- but if you do need it, well, we're at least
trying to provide it. :-)Robert B. Waltz  - - - - - - - - Ballad Index Editor
2095 Delaware Avenue
Mendota Heights, MN 55118-4801
651-454-8994 - - - - - - - - - - e-mail: [unmask]The Ballad Index Web Site:
http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndexTOC.html

Hyder E. Rollins quotes from Philip Henry's diaries of Feb. 20,
1684, in 'The Pepys Ballads', III, #114, as follows: "I heard of
a murther near Salop on Sabb. day ye 10. instant, a woman
fathering a conception on a Milner was Kild by him in a field,
her Body lay there many dayes by reason of ye Coroner's absence."
The ballad, "The bloody Miller", #114, names the woman as Anne
Nicols, and the Miller as Francis Cooper. They are more familiar
now as "The Knoxville/Oxford/Lexington Girl", and "The
Wittam/Lexington/Cruel Miller" of Laws P 35.If you want the history, look to Rollins.Bruce OlsonMy website: www.erols.com/olsonw <A
href="http://www.erols.com/olsonw"> Click </a>

Hi, Robert.  Right now, I have a Dos-based machine, 386 DX, with Msa-Dos
5.0.  However, I will be getting a new PC, within the next few months,
with Windows '98, but I must learn to use it.        Marge

All right, gun experts, I've heard a lot about six shooters but I'm not
sure that I ever heard of a five shooter before.  I have a reference to a
38 cal five shooter, ca 1890.Any information?john garst    [unmask]

John Garst wrote:
>
> All right, gun experts, I've heard a lot about six shooters but I'm not
> sure that I ever heard of a five shooter before.  I have a reference to a
> 38 cal five shooter, ca 1890.
>
> Any information?I'm not a gun expert, but I can make a few observations.  Multiple-shot
weapons run a huge gamut, from the double-(fixed)-barrel (e.g. the
classic derringer) to multiple revolving barrels, to revolving cylinder
containing multiple loads (the classic "revolver") to the semi-automatic
with a spring clip holding multiple loads (e.g. Luger, but I don't know
that this type was around in 1890).If one assumes the gun in question is a revolver, there is no reason
that it couldn't have 5 loads; the number of loads is established by the
caliber of the load (size of the shell) and the desired diameter of the
cylinder.  The "6-shooter" refers to the popular revolvers of the Wild
West, but they're quite large; a smaller pocket revolver might have had
fewer loads, and I think some of the earlier cap and ball revolvers
(Civil War vintage?), with interchangeable cylinders (for extended
firing, since it took so long to reload), had fewer than 6 - but they
may not have been .38 caliber.I imagine there were quite a few variants around; there were a *lot* of
gun-makers.  Perhaps an expert can identify a common 5-shot revolver,
but it might help to know if the *gun* was 1890, or only the reference!-Don

Hi-
A very common arrangement. 5-shot revolvers are more compact than
six-shooters.dickOn Fri, 14 Jan 2000, John Garst wrote:> All right, gun experts, I've heard a lot about six shooters but I'm not
> sure that I ever heard of a five shooter before.  I have a reference to a
> 38 cal five shooter, ca 1890.
>
> Any information?
>
> john garst    [unmask]
>

Adam:See my interspersed comments. And to the subscribers of ballad-l, I am
really posting this for Sam, whose address I do not have.EdOn Fri, 14 Jan 2000, autoharp wrote:> Dear Ed,
>
> I talked to you a few years ago about a book I'm writing about Sam
> Hinton.
>
> At that time you told me:
>
> "I attended my first scholarly meeting of the California Folklore
> Society in 1956, and it was at Chico State University, and Sam was
> there.  Before that, I thought only professional performers sang, but
> Sam had another career in marine biology.   That was a real surprise."Not the only surprise, I might add.  Eric Wahlgren, professor of
Scandinavian languages at UCLA told a riotous joke (great dialects) about
a Frenchman lost in the North Woods and a moose the punchline of which was
"Fuck Pierre!"  Suddenly academic folklorists became human.About Sam though I should add this:  He was much respected by the academic
folklorists, especially our mutual friend Wayland Hand, professor of
German and Folklore at UCLA.  Even Hand's teacher, the venerable and
venerated Archer Taylor, thought highly of Sam.  I well recall that
evening Archer sitting there with his wife, the two of them most serene,
in the living room of Chico professor Hector Lee, as Sam sang.In retrospect I believe it was not just that Sam was/is a good
entertainer, but that he conveyed his love of the songs and his knowledge
of their history.  Memory serving, the highlight of the evening was him
singing "Tyin' a Knot in the Devil's Tail," which provoked a quiet
disquisition by Archer Taylor on devil legendry and signs to ward off evil
spirits (the devil).To this then-undergraduate, more than a little in awe of these giants of
folklore studies, it was a defining moment.Feel free to use any or all of this.Ed Cray
>
> I'd like to use this in my book.  Please correct, ammend, rewrite or
> expand on this quote and e-mail it back to me.
>
> Also, I'd like to know how I should introduce you.  Should I say,
> "Author, folklorist and radio programmer?" or something like that?
>
> Bear Family Records in Germany has issued the Library of Congress
> recordings SAm made in 1947.  They did a very nice job, too.
>
> Thanks,
> Adam Miller
> [unmask]
>

On Fri, Jan 14, 2000 at 05:55:23PM -0500, dick greenhaus wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, John Garst wrote:
>
> > All right, gun experts, I've heard a lot about six shooters but I'm not
> > sure that I ever heard of a five shooter before.  I have a reference to a
> > 38 cal five shooter, ca 1890.
> >
> > Any information?        [ ... ]> Hi-
> A very common arrangement. 5-shot revolvers are more compact than
> six-shooters.        [ ... ]        Absolutely.  While six was the most common, there are 5-shot
revolvers made to this day.  The Smith & Wesson Chief's Special, which
is designed as a hidden personal carry weapon for police officers, is a
5-shot 38 special.  The 5-shot configuration makes it less obvious when
being carried concealed, since the thickness is defined by the diameter
of the cylinder, and a five-shot one is noticeably smaller.        I no longer have the books which listed older firearms for
collectors, but five shot revolvers have certainly been around since
1890 or before.        Enjoy,
                DoN.--
 Email:   <[unmask]>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    My Concertina web page:        | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
        --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---