From <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Sat Jan 21 04:59:43 1995 Return-Path: <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (helios.edvz.univie.ac.at [131.130.1.2]) by mizar.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id EAA29125 for ; Sat, 21 Jan 1995 04:59:35 -0800 Message-Id: <199501211259.EAA29125@mizar.usc.edu> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 8270; Sat, 21 Jan 95 13:58:24 MEZ Received: from AEARN.ACO.NET (NJE origin LISTSERV@AEARN) by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0840; Sat, 21 Jan 1995 13:58:20 +0100 Date: Sat, 21 Jan 1995 06:57:35 -0600 Reply-To: Irish Traditional Music List Sender: Irish Traditional Music List From: Jack Marshall Bevil Subject: Re: Borrowing Irish tunes (was: Re: Background Info) To: Multiple recipients of list IRTRAD-L In-Reply-To: <199501202130.PAA10399@Paula-Formby.tenet.edu> Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 20 Jan 1995, Scott DeLancey wrote: > On Fri, 20 Jan 1995, ghost wrote: > > > Folk tunes were frequently appropriated to be rewritten as religious music. > > Of interest to irtrad-l is an "early music" song about Lazurus...to the tune > > of "Star of the County Down". > > SotCD was also set as a hymn by Ralph Vaughn Williams (?? I'm pretty > sure)--it's in the Episcopal hymnal as "When Jesus Left His Father's > Throne". > > Scott DeLancey > -------------------------------------------------------- Correct. The hymn-tune title is "Kingsfold," and the melody was collected by Vaughan Williams. The association with "Dives and Lazarus" was made after this collection. The text that RVW took with the tune was "The Ploughboy's Dream." A splendid orchestral setting of this tune is RVW's "Five Variants of 'Dives and Lazarus'." J. MARSHALL BEVIL (jmbevil@tenet.edu) From <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Mon Jan 23 02:14:18 1995 Return-Path: <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (helios.edvz.univie.ac.at [131.130.1.2]) by mizar.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id CAA23313 for ; Mon, 23 Jan 1995 02:14:11 -0800 Message-Id: <199501231014.CAA23313@mizar.usc.edu> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0549; Mon, 23 Jan 95 11:04:59 MEZ Received: from AEARN.ACO.NET (NJE origin LISTSERV@AEARN) by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8176; Mon, 23 Jan 1995 10:36:06 +0100 Date: Sun, 22 Jan 1995 13:02:13 -0500 Reply-To: "Eileen M. Condon" Sender: Irish Traditional Music List From: "Eileen M. Condon" Subject: Borrowing Irish Tunes (Hymns) X-To: Irish Traditional Music List X-cc: Multiple recipients of list IRTRAD-L To: Multiple recipients of list IRTRAD-L In-Reply-To: <199501211258.JAA15820@piva.ucs.mun.ca> Status: RO X-Status: Scott, JMB, ghost: What a groovy thread. I've wanted to start a list of these folk-and-hymn tunes for a while. A Roman Catholic hit on the SotCD or "Kingsfold" tune is "I Heard the Voice of Jesus Say...": I heard the voice of Jesus say Come unto me and rest Lay down thou weary one lay down Thy head upon my breast I came to Jesus as I was Weary and worn and sad I found in him a resting place And he has made me glad... ______________________________ There are some fine lines between holiness and parody...and I have a feeling Van Morrison is getting acid indigestion, wherever he is. JMB: Did you find that tune title in *Hymns Ancient and Modern*? Eileen Condon Memorial U of NF From <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Thu Jan 26 10:59:17 1995 Return-Path: <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (helios.edvz.univie.ac.at [131.130.1.2]) by mizar.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id KAA08747 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:59:10 -0800 Message-Id: <199501261859.KAA08747@mizar.usc.edu> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 7176; Thu, 26 Jan 95 19:39:15 MEZ Received: from AEARN.ACO.NET (NJE origin LISTSERV@AEARN) by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7688; Thu, 26 Jan 1995 19:39:05 +0100 Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:42:50 CST Reply-To: Irish Traditional Music List Sender: Irish Traditional Music List From: Cliff Moses Subject: Borrowing Irish Tunes X-To: IRTRAD-L%IRLEARN.BITNET@cunyvm.cuny.edu To: Multiple recipients of list IRTRAD-L Status: RO X-Status: I no longer have the original inquiry that started this discussion, but I seem to remember that the question dealt with Irish tunes and Scottish tunes being borrowed from each other or haven a common ancestry. Brendan Breathnach makes mention of this in a couple places in his bok Folk Music and Dances of Ireland. (ISBN 0-85342-509-4) In one place he states that jig "The Campbells are Coming" and Miss McLeod's Reel" come from the same air. I haven't found a copy of The Campbell's are coming" so I haven't checked this. But I remember in talking with Noel Rice of Baal Tinne one time, he thought this often the case. Has anyone else considered this? B.B. also claims that a strong case case be made for a number of well-known Irish reels having a Scots ancestry. Lord McDonald and Miss McLeod are Scottish reels that became popular in Ireland after being printed in Dublin. Bonnie Kate was composed by Daniel Dow, a fiddler from Perthshire in 1760; the original title was The Bonnie Lass of Fisherrow. Dow also composed Bonnie Anne of which Follow Me Down to Carlow is a variant. Another one of Dow's compositions, Moneymusk, was popular in Ireland for doing the Highland fling. Lord Gordon's Reel is a highly developed form of The Duke of Gordan's Rant. The Perthshire Hunt was composed by Miss Sterling of Ardoch and publised in 1780; in Ireland it became known as The Boyne Hunt. The Fairy Reel was composed by Neil Gow for the Fife Hunt Ball held in 1802; it was so poular in Ireland that a special dance, Cor na Sioga, is performed to it. Other reels of Scottish origin include Rakish Paddy (Cabar Feigh or The Deer's Horn), John Frank (Col. McBain), Greig's Pipes, Lucy Campbell, The Ranting Widow (Hopetoun House), and the Flogging Reel. Be that as it may, we all know that the tunes wouldn't be played in the same style in Scotland and Ireland. Best regards, Cliff Moses From <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Fri Jan 27 05:28:28 1995 Return-Path: <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (helios.edvz.univie.ac.at [131.130.1.2]) by mizar.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id FAA29354 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 05:28:23 -0800 Message-Id: <199501271328.FAA29354@mizar.usc.edu> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 6567; Fri, 27 Jan 95 14:24:45 MEZ Received: from AEARN.ACO.NET (NJE origin LISTSERV@AEARN) by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6555; Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:24:39 +0100 Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:10:52 -0500 Reply-To: Irish Traditional Music List Sender: Irish Traditional Music List From: Sally Sommers Subject: Re: Borrowing Irish Tunes X-To: IRTRAD-L%IRLEARN.BITNET@BROWNVM.brown.edu To: Multiple recipients of list IRTRAD-L Status: RO X-Status: Cliff asked about the tunes "The Campbells Are Coming" and "Miss McLeod's Reel". When I first read that statement in Breathnach's book, I was puzzled as well: didn't seem quite right. I asked my fiddle teacher about it, in fact, basically because he was teaching me the jig "The Burnt Old Man" at the time. He mulled a bit, then began to play the jig tune as a reel: it works! Try it! ("The Burnt Old Man", I forgot to mention, IS the tune "The Campbells Are Coming", Irish-style). My confusion with Breathnach's claim, it turned out, was that "Miss McLeod's" can be played in several keys, depending on the tradition from which your particular favorite version comes from. Breathnach also goes on to say that the tune is Scottish in origin (as are many reels in the Irish/Scottish/Cape Breton/American nexus) and has been popular since at least the seventeenth century in Ireland. (And, it's one of my great favorites, too!) Thanks, Cliff, for bringing it to mind. -Sally (ssommers@acs.bu.edu) From <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Tue Jan 31 02:13:27 1995 Return-Path: <@helios.edvz.univie.ac.at:owner-irtrad-l@IRLEARN.UCD.IE> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (helios.edvz.univie.ac.at [131.130.1.2]) by mizar.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP id CAA08395 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 02:13:00 -0800 Message-Id: <199501311013.CAA08395@mizar.usc.edu> Received: from AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UniVie.AC.AT (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 9815; Tue, 31 Jan 95 11:00:50 MEZ Received: from AEARN.ACO.NET (NJE origin LISTSERV@AEARN) by AWIUNI11.EDVZ.UNIVIE.AC.AT (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 6841; Tue, 31 Jan 1995 10:46:07 +0100 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 1995 04:24:11 -0500 Reply-To: Irish Traditional Music List Sender: Irish Traditional Music List From: John Walsh Subject: Re: Borrowing Irish Tunes X-To: IRTRAD-L@irlearn.bitnet To: Multiple recipients of list IRTRAD-L In-Reply-To: <9501262146.AA13472@raven.math.ubc.ca> from "Cliff Moses" at Jan 26, 95 11:42:50 am Status: RO X-Status: Cliff Moses writes: > In one place he states that jig "The Campbells are Coming" > and Miss McLeod's Reel" come from the same air. I haven't > found a copy of The Campbell's are coming" so I haven't > checked this. > [and he then follows it with much interesting lore] More, more! I like to find out about the tunes I play--seems to give 'em even more character. Does anyone else have any stories or lore about tunes that they'd like to share? I'll toss in a little tidbit about the Pigtown Fling for starters. (No idea what or where Pigtown is, or how the tune got to be called a fling: everyone plays it as a reel. But that's the name it usually goes under in Ireland these days.) It's in William Walsh's "Irish Tunes for the Scottish and Irish War Pipes" as Keltan's Reel, and it's well-known to US country fiddlers--which is where I first learned it myself--as Stony Point, the Wild Horse, and the Wild Horse at Stony Point. (It's in the Fiddler's Fakebook.) Evidently it was common in New England around the turn of the century, since it--at least, its first part--appears as a recurring theme in Charles Ives' 2nd symphony--it's in at least 3 of the five movements (along with numerous other fiddle tunes, and popular tunes of the day such as Camptown Races.) Cheers, John Walsh walsh@math.ubc.ca